but it shows he was talking well then he interrupted me so I stopped talking
that's really [ __ ] rude dude like what the [ __ ] I didn't want to like I didn't want him to get rugged with the
intro so let's roll it but yeah well okay what right
[Music]
hello and welcome to game of nodes the coldest podcast from independent validator teams on the Cosmos on a
weekly basis that was the most shambolic intro I've done it is very cold here we were just talking about how both in the
northern and southern hemisphere apparently it is Hoodie weather um and shorts he was going to say
something probably quite interesting and they'll just like kept interrupting him shortly yeah probably profound
thank you yeah no it was it was deeply uninteresting actually it's just that
the uh the background for the game of nodes uh server is the same background that's used by Mev space as like their
their big opening logo this is this is med space I mean it is stolen from the internet so
much royalty free is just fully nicked is that the uh is that the deal well so
here's the funny part though uh we've used it longer so oh really yeah we have dude my
uh if any of these spaces are watching this podcast I gather that your nodes are less reliable than the hats now so
just that that's actually not a really helpful thing is to say is it just like no no no kind of like product advice or
like feature requests just be like your your product is not as good as the competition just pointing that out in The Ether and
see what comes back out probably not positive vibes I would expect
um I've had nothing but good experience with me vs honestly I went yeah I I got
a couple servers on one month um leases a while back and then I had a great experience so I did the full 12 month uh
commitment and it's been nothing but great for me oh fair enough so that's why you recognize me
yeah maybe space yeah [ __ ] man I'm like 12 months committed on so many servers
for any view space or for other places mainly ovh I'm their [ __ ]
I've just moved um some stuff to ovh and so far pretty pretty happy with uh with
this man they've been [ __ ] rock solid for me the advanced ones have just been great yeah they're a little bit more
expensive but they can do um well they could do the uh sdx until like
the last upgrade on um secret and now they're all [ __ ] so now I've got Evan servers that I can't
run [ __ ] what are they what's the what's the ram um available on uh Advanced one because
I thought it topped out at 32 or 64. 128 you can get yeah yeah all right okay
that's pretty good then like this the specs on the I thought you had to go to the advanced 2 to get the uh
the beefy boy Ram but you know for for your chains like Juno that just ram ram
bastards Ram Hogs right of what the words the words are going to be strange today I apologize for that
um yeah so uh what's been happening in the cosmos this week I can think of at least
one thing [Applause] we had another Tombstone Anders from a
validator that we've seen Tombstone before uh pulling a bit oh they've
previously terms don't have that previously Tombstone haven't they right
okay okay like I might have to like go and fact check myself here but I'm pretty sure ever stake
um have already double signed in Tombstone on different chain and I'm now
gonna have to go and check that because I feel like I might have lied um but yeah no I've I've
yeah I don't want to like but there are quite a few people because everstick are relatively uh active I guess on like
um valid private channels stuff like that and on the networks they're on both in that side of the cosmos I've been
dm'd by quite a few validators that I know in various places with like
uh essentially messages saying oh I wish I could reply to this everstate message with some shady talk uh so it's fair to
say I think also it's a little bit of that whole punching up thing because they're such a big validator if you're a you know if you're like a smaller
validator like us and you're kind of like you know living in fear constantly I don't think null's living the fear the
rest of us are living in constant fear of double side and you kind of see the big boys screw up you're a little bit
like
well I feel mostly good there are a couple of chains that don't work with hard cracks or any sort of remote
signing solution like Odin and anytime I have to do something with like manually copying over cubes or whatever I just
if you get this way it's stressful I get sweats yeah for sure I'm like
I found the best way to like you know make sure is you just turn off every
node you have for it destroy it and then start a new one and then copy your day
across that's basically what I do like my process is pretty simple it's just like move the key out stop restart the
notes that it spawns a new key and then it makes sure it's not signing and then actually move the key over so then
people like have the key like move the key out I think it's just best to just
destroy the user the whole [ __ ] like user um folder the home folder everything
just kill it all and then um just [ __ ] start a new one like
that seems dramatic to me I I don't know that's kind of basically what we have done in the past when we've shuffled
boxes is that we stopped the AWS instance fully um so that it actually gets unallocated
in the Amazon scheduler and if you recycle that box it will come up on a
different IP so even if you [ __ ] up and bring the box
back up you sign I can't connect to it because it doesn't know the IP and the firewall rules if you're you know
setting it up in such a way that can only call out to certain IPS actually need to be cycled before it can then uh
find the correct box um so when I double sign when we double
sign on uh uni uh when we bring up so we're going to be bringing up uh DJ and
horcrux on uni in the next few days and when are uni validated double signs
you can laugh at me for being smug about our process for for cycling reverse
either well this is why we have the prices it's only five we just switched it out from
underneath there's no big deal don't worry about it um are from null low so if we do double
sign I'm just gonna be like [ __ ] hell no it was your instructions did you read them there's plenty of [ __ ] warnings
in there about uh double siding I was I was reading them on my laptop the other day and we're all like there's I I was
pulling the floor up at the weekend not not important why but there's very few places in the house you can sit so I sat
on the stairs working because this is how [ __ ] sad my life is at the moment so when I'm at home I'm literally working on the stairs
and my wife walked past me and like just looked over my shoulder at what I was
doing and saw your [ __ ] DJ and horcrux instructions and it was like the first line something like this is
horcrux degeneracy and then there's like a bit of like it's like we are now into the land where you
double [ __ ] sign no I'm kidding you really might [ __ ] double side which is like this is the amount of random
[ __ ] I've obviously talked in the last year she was like wait are you risking double signing I'm like no no no maybe
it's just dolls written it's I I [ __ ] hope not but I don't understand the
whole document is just one big disclaimer a lot of [ __ ] disclaimer in there but
correctly so right yeah correct so um you know completely unrelated welcome to uh race buttercups man I just invited
him on and didn't say anyone was coming but um so the people who are listening and not looking he's just showed up and
patiently sat down there for the better part of 10 minutes waiting for us to get around to uh welcome him
it's classic null gas management as well welcome thanks for having me yeah we
work and have a guests this week but then we were like talking about Joe chain before we started and we're like hey let's get someone who knows
something about that because I think you guys are doing some um you know some cool stuff there and we just want to
hear a little bit about it and uh you had like 20 to 30 minutes free yep so
so yeah I guess can you give us the rundown like we we kind of understand that it's
like hoping that you're not enabling IBC if it's just like a bit of a joke chain
um but also like might be doing some interesting things with your gov module that we were talking about and uh yeah
man give us the quick rundown eh so joking started out as a joke and it's kind of morphed into let's actually run
a real chain real nfts and things like that uh we're building off of each Eve chain
which was initially going to be its own separate chain for like pushing as a
canary chain so its idea was it's going to talk with Juno and be the latest and greatest and then we'll move those features over into Juno to have those
talk together well I decided to push that ahead because of the whole getting uh Cosmos D5 whose name is Joe
into a thousand Subs on YouTube so I they began to launch a stargaze nft
collection of a bunch of random pictures of Joe and the idea behind it was you get 16 unique Joe's you burned them on
stargaze and you get the mint proceeds from all of the past events until that time until the next people so that it's
a revolving thing so there was actually a game to it but you could only mint 10 with your wallet so we we added that
game feature and then someone joked about the fact of we should launch a chain and I was like okay I have the
features to do that I have the resources to do it so I spent a couple hours we launched up Joe chain that night we did
an airdrop of Joe token to all of our nft holders that had at multiple I think
we did three or four snapshots so we gave those to them and then because we're on the latest and greatest of wasm
D token Factory uh Global fees and all of these other features on IBC version 5. we decided let's like actually launch
this and build some products on it we're on the greatest we can test it now before we're moving it over to Juno to
you know find any issues that that there may be and we'll talk with Juno so we're not going to allow transferring to ics20
tokens over the IBC but we are going to have IBC enabled for say interchain uh
interchange nfts or things like that so Patmos is currently building on it we have a group of 16 validators including
Chandra station we have putmos we have notional myself and then uh block paint
and a few others so we have some some pretty good people behind it so the idea is that it's just like a bit of a it's
like a canary chain that's got like no real value for the actual chain token but just a place where people can play
around an IBC out in and in nfts and and different stuff like that yeah exactly
it's like a it's like a test that chain but we're running it on a mainnet we had ideas initially of you know maybe we allow a stars to joke pool but now we're
kind of modifying that to maybe we do a Joe Pool with other Joe tokens that we meant uh just to to see what unique uh
value propositions we can bring to the cosmos and like you had said earlier with a custom governance module I'm
looking at say maybe you can only yes and know with veto but it's a very quick voting period we're thinking about
roughly a day so there's not enough time like you have to really get into it figure it out but there's not enough
time for the emotions to come out into play like the other drama that we've seen in other chains so we're interested
in seeing how that works out as well it sounds pretty cool man uh man I've
assume that was more satire than uh the uh functionality a little bit
um so it was basically launched uh out of a um a spaces right like with uh the rat guys
mainly yeah I don't believe the right guys were in that one I think that was more with uh Safi and Tinder mint Tammy
and myself and a couple others I mean the spaces grew up pretty big so there was a lot of people in there but the rat guys didn't come in I don't think for a
couple we had already launched the chain once the rat guys decided to come in so I I always confuse uh sephi with the
right guys for some reason think that he is wrecked guys anyone can be a wreck but everyone can
be a Joe as well yeah it's a big ten uh so other other than
the governance module are there any like other um you know modules or or features that
other chains just don't have yet like it's pretty um at the head right it's probably the
for like a public chain it's probably got some stuff that aren't present in
other chains yeah and yeah like especially around like you know the SDK version like is it 46
or 47 yeah we're on 46 on that one we're running Watson D5 ABC first or wasmd
29.2 we're running IDC version 5. we're running the newest token Factory which is getting moved into Juno uh that'll be
on V12 I do believe uh once we get the integration test done with that and then
we're also running Global fees from the Gaia repository so that way that we have a set fee that we can raise via
government so it's running the latest of everything that we that we could run the latest stuff have you run into any issues with
um what did I say 36 20 76 46 46. have you
run into issues there because I know like a lot of the other Chains It's been a [ __ ] train wreck yeah uh one other
thing I forgot too we also have inclusions liquid staking so we have a native liquid staking which wraps the
the standard staking throughout the app.go and then we're also having cutmoses govmos for the liquid staking
with that and that'll be uh dollar sign wet Joe because of liquid so that's that's the idea there with that with 46
I've actually been in the cosmos uh for about a year now I think a year this month uh and we begin building craft
economy the Minecraft server that was connecting with the SDK and so that was on 46 so I've had a lot of struggles
with 46 but thankfully that watching Joe on 46 was much simpler than it was back
you know roughly a year ago so so so craft economy dead or
paused for the time being so because of the legal implications with Microsoft all of the technical side is done all of
the blockchain integration with the Minecraft server and SDK but we're currently paused and developers I think
it was like maybe a month or two ago so we're just sitting on the project in the time being the Dao is discussing further
steps to go forward but not really sure on any of that I'm not in those conversations
copy um so uh well I guess then we've covered
Joe chain yeah yep so I mean other features that we're also adding just to to further emphasize that you know we're
going to continue to build we'll build a DEX on top of it so we're looking at wasn't swap but we may just decide to do
our own custom version uh but again that'll only be with the Joe token and other tokens that we meant on the chain
with the the token Factory to all coordinate with each other so we'll gamify that some we're going to be
launching Dow Dow V2 hopefully within the next one or two weeks so that way we're on the latest uh beta of that
we'll have the ICS 721 nfts like I talked about for cross chain to talk
with omniflex or you know stargaze and things like that uh I'll be launching an
nft Marketplace so I built up an nft contract those will take CW 721s you'll buy it with your Joe token so we'll be
minting out with that um and then also working with the raccoon guys on you know any custom
lotteries or things like that I'll be talking with them so there's a lot of cool things coming to it and so but at the at the so the ultimate
goal though is that it's it's basically a canary chain to test out stuff that's really going to Juno at the end of the
day exactly yeah that we're bringing are going to be on a Juno eventually so we just figured let's pull into a meme team
now and allow Juno to talk with with Joe very easily and then go from there and see where the community decides they
want to go with it so is Eve officially dead then Eve is not dead however because we are going to
be moving the things into Juno we're not sure on the use cases with Eve still because you know Joe's of course doing
what Eve was originally going to do so but I'm we're playing Joe in a more meme-centric way such as you know a
Cerberus coin or something like that so rather than being an official like trying to be a blue chip to compete with
Juno uh so we're just I'm just trying to find the way that we can mix all three together in in a useful way to all
communities arguably more value than Cerberus
I don't think you need to argue that I don't think you need to argue that at all yeah yeah kerberus is a [ __ ] Queen
so Joe is not okay it has more energy behind it than
curb did so yeah I mean Market I guess in the sense
it's uh uh you know obviously a bear versus a bull but I think only only
Huawei was lucky enough to actually launch during well lucky or smart enough being able to launch during the ball
anyway well they they caught the start of the bull but um the like at least you
know uh sorry at least uh uh two hours like they're sort of moving their chain along they're still developing and
implementing stuff and getting Partnerships and that whereas kerberus I don't think has done anything right
yes that project I think yeah and yeah I mean curb was like I
think the Tipping Point for oh [ __ ] yeah you can't just throw up any old [ __ ] as a chain and
people will go along with it for a bit but the novelty's [ __ ] worn off I think that was the that was the Tipping
Point wasn't that really uh every chain since that has had tough a little bit more effort behind it to
even like I guess not trip over at shoelaces on the starting box and then just [ __ ] its
pants on the floor which is kind of what um wow yeah I did that I I was very tired the
last month has been incredibly trying and uh I'm not in a I'm not in a
sugarcane to get mood at the moment but it's it yeah I mean it really did feel
like without shade it just sort of like it was like one of those memes of the rocket just go
well hold on I so I think part of the issue with that though was its tokenomics distribution they did a
one-to-one send to anyone that had the Chihuahua token that doesn't make
any sense at all right because then they would have no way no need to buy in and they would sell immediately
I think that's where they went wrong I think they could have I think they could have melted a little bit longer if they hadn't done that
yeah In fairness the huahua tokenomics are pretty [ __ ] bad [ __ ] aren't they so that's also that I mean like it'd be
I'm always kind of interested to see like a [ __ ] chain or like a meme chain launch uh Joe to make sure their pants
says Ben Davis in the chat that's correct um I'm almost quite curious to see like
this is the thing about Joe chain I don't know I know you don't have a mint module right but uh so that's the only
thing I really kind of think I think I know about the tokenomics but I was kind of I'm kind of interested to see how you
launch a meme chain in the beginning of like the bottom of a bear Market you know
what I mean well it doesn't matter though because it's they're not trying to sell it whatever I know but it's just
like to keep it going it's like a peak fog like you need the validators at some point to like at least
Somebody's gotta cash out something at some point to pay for something like if I know that it's never going to like be
listed I'll I'll validate it oh but I'll only give it one machine it's not going to have like [ __ ] redundancy and
bloody you know all the [ __ ] it'll just have like some [ __ ] thing
I'm no blog playing I won't like you know put effort into it but um Adam Bomb said in the chat this
is great uh kerberus should be a true Pioneer in the cosmos and officially die
well there was there was that like before the the bear even fully took hold there was a the drag kerberus back to
Hell prop yeah that was great was that um that that was that angering us
I thought angry mouse was to like give me money guys I thought it was Pikachu that did that I was thinking it was
golden ratio [Laughter]
that's a big big spread of different uses like from Angry Mouse to Poker to Golden they're like
well it seems like the kind of [ __ ] prop that um Angry Mouse would put up so
yeah but also it makes a lot of sense so maybe not angry mouse that way yeah
it feels like it might make too much sense uh uh was that a necessary shade possibly
so Rhys um so Joe will never be it'll never be
salable anywhere else other than on Joe chain right it'll never have economic value yeah we don't think so that was
our original plan was to maybe mix it with stars and have a stars to Joe Paul just so we can have more liquidity to
come in but as we thought about it we're going to be air dropping to a bunch of nft communities anyway both in Joe token as well as custom Joe mints that we do
on the Joe chain so you know we're still trying to figure out you know can we monetize it likely not but I think that
just the value it provides from a technical standpoint will outweigh that and so if you come at it from a test net
perspective of we're running this test net just as you would say uni5 it's you know it's that same aspect but we're
giving it the main net bytes so that's kind of how we're situating it in its current stance so if it yeah man I mean if it's never
going to be monetized I'd I'd like donate compute to it um
yeah we have a group of the way that it works is you only have there's only 16 validators so we're writing UI tooling
for delegations to actually spread it out across all 16 evenly to try to keep
all the same now also on top of this all validators have to have the same name the same uh identity all of this so
delegators don't know who they're delegating to they're delegating to Joe so we're trying to see can we keep all
validators in the set at the even waiting to have the best instance because it doesn't matter if you're at
the bottom of the set because you're evenly weighted against everyone so we're trying to see you know how do delegators you know deal with this
situation do you do we what do you have 16 now yeah if
you go to explore.justjo.app you can you can see our validators currently some of them
have not changed the name yet but yes we have the the front end UI and we're working on the liquid staking and normal
staking to automatically distribute now so a couple of them are working on that hopefully have it out in the next couple
days Joe and also we will be halting today at block 50 000 for the holidays so that's
something that Joe wanted so we'll be halting for holidays just as Banks would
it's Thanksgiving right yes uh I believe tomorrow so we're hoping tomorrow until
Friday so is that like that is actually quite
acceptable no we just know validators were just halting at that height so no no no proposal we're just doing it we
have the control gorgeous Joe cool that's that's great you have something about 3 000 blocks will be down
maybe truly a Pioneer truly
and batching transactions every night instead so should should propose that across the
entire Cosmos just just
validate business hours in another ecosystem that we're working on there
literally is a thing where they take a break for the holidays oh really
yeah well other than other than the one that ends
in other than critical updates like bug updates they won't release patches or
updates during holidays this is the one that ends in Astro they we should agree to do that everywhere
but yes uh well the one that I'm thinking of that ends in is yeah probably we're
connected we have ESP so you're uh you should know what I'm thinking of I think I've got it is it
kangaroos no no it's wallabies I always get that
one mixed up because I see that I see the hopping animal I'm like kangaroo but no it's smaller it's a rock wallaby
I'm right and I I don't know man quality and a normal wallaby yeah it
it's a wallaby on a rock um the frey and I talk every day like
morning and night so we're like incredibly connected internally now I'm pretty much his wife
I think I think I probably said you about one message a day with the word [ __ ] at the very least it's like if I
see some dumb [ __ ] oh dear that's probably why there's so much swearing on the podcast because it's just like a
week's worth of DMS and it's just all of the stuff I was just like hey remember that [ __ ] thing I sent you about that
[ __ ] thing it's just like so what happens when Australians and British people write what we should do
is just write our DMS into the uh into the agenda for the node podcast and not
actually talk about them we should just put it straight into the spreadsheet the DM yeah but then it would just be it
would just be like Bleak pessimism from my end and then just like oh it'll be
fine you know you'll still be all right don't worry about it ah it goes how it
goes whatever like it would just be like sort of 20 would just be null colon
how are you going and then just like an assortment of just phrase random statements with the word
[ __ ] in and then just like 25 negativity we're up to 75 right and then 25 null
positivity that would be it that would be the whole lot yeah it would only take about five five
percent of like a hundred percent because shorts is relatively quiet and usually only says very useful and
specific technical things like uh there's a whole thread I think with schultzy in another I can't remember
which one it is but what are the many threads that we're in and literally I think if I counted up all of the there
was like a specific point where I scrolled up and I couldn't see a single message from schultzy except for like a
like I don't know like maybe two weeks before there was like a point where there was just like a snippet with loads
of useful stuff for like a A bash script and I was just like yeah schulzi really
doesn't talk unless he's got something to say and it's usually something useful unlike the rest of us
I don't know what to say for myself that's all I've got to say oh well that's how you get through a
bear isn't it so anyway um hey I've got like a fun like
we we should start we I need to make a little new videos we've got the tombstone video right
um do we reckon any we were we were talking about this earlier I think uh when we whether we thought any Chains
would actually stop making blocks in the bear now that the bear has gotten bad bad
like we should start doing a bet on this to see who who's who's ngmi
because it's like obviously like a super big meme right ngmi but like currently
no chains have and
M I'd well well so I mean I guess the question is
would they ever just stop unless all the validators deliberately stopped right because if they jail themselves then the
changes keeps going on if they unbond changes keeps going on everyone every validator we have to actively turn their
thing off right it's not the only way to stop it oh I guess you go below
[Music]
if your child isn't your stake taken out of the total I think you'd have to have
it depends if the validators go down without unbonding then they could halt the chain
so I guess it depends then what the validators do and how many go down simultaneously
because if you have 18 hours of them going down if they go down nice I like the background
[Laughter] yeah I require a bunch of validators turning off at the same time
yeah I mean that's the notion isn't it it would be interesting because I guess in theory if there's enough stake you
can run you can run tendermen on a single node so it doesn't have one loan validated
just chipping away in the darkness if people if people unbond instead of just
turn off right so if people turn off the chain will stop but if people unbond it
or just keep [ __ ] banging up the the people below even if it's got 10 validators with one stake each it'll
still run as long as I unbond if they just turn off it's [ __ ] it'll it'll stop
yeah it's kind of interesting isn't it like you build a super super resilient fault tolerance system it because it's
actually interesting to extrapolate just how forward tolerant it is in terms of just how hard it is to kill the thing
deliberately as well as accidentally um I get yeah it's an interesting thought
uh I got in the chat Adam Bomb said game of nodes bear Market bets First
Chain to die civil curb Sif I've seen a lot of people I'm bonding from Seth
recently so I just can't imagine why that would
be yeah I it's interesting isn't it because Sif
has actual utility potentially and curb doesn't and yet I've seen more people on
bonding from Sith than from curb I mean I think Serb is so far outside of
like the normal Cosmos lexicon at this point that people don't even care enough to unbond
like it's pretty sad but I think that's where it's at yeah I mean that's fair I mean to be fair there's quite a few
chains like that like when was the last time you heard about star name
checked Commerce SEO whoa whoa let's not throw checked into
this I actually like check I think they have a great product I I think Jack's quite good but I don't hear people talk
about it ever no that's true it was never it never kind of went into the the greater lexicon of
the cosmo so I don't really know why maybe because it's not a mint scan it seems like if a network is not on
minscan then people don't take it seriously right well everybody got very excited about
territory and they're not on mint scan right ooh are they I don't know all right thanks for coming Reese
yeah I just noticed Rhys reset I gotta go and then uh but I didn't check the
DMS until you're gone thanks Rhys for joining us and talking about Joe chain
um territory is on minscan here's some which which one which one is
on mint scan sorry uh territory is I've been scan is it that's interesting
[Music] um so Leighton 666
in the chat says dig um Adam Bomb suggests Desmos
yeah they haven't done anything right there's been quite a few of us leave dig as well recently so it's like on its way
out but uh you know it it still mods you know some people just want to validate
and Ben Ben Davis has said uh Rhys rugged you guys
yeah that's not the way it's supposed to look we're supposed to kick them out yeah this might be a first a guest has just
said I gotta go and it's gone quiet I mean like that fairy did say and you
had like 20 minutes or so but we kind of just ignored him as well which kind of didn't help so we're like oh thanks for
that and then just start to talk about it you game of notes is like this there's like you've got to just elbow your way
into the it's like a big conversation at the pub you gotta [ __ ] like just muscle your
way in so you can say your piece and then like go back to your Schooner yeah I mean I feel I feel really bad right
sometimes when it's got like shortsy and Eric on and and usurper on doxed the one
week is not on Daxton um but when they're on and they're obviously like quite tired or in like a
bit of a quieter mood and then there's just like full Pub mode going on on this on this side of the screen we're just
like oh [ __ ] hell man what did you see this and I'm just like oh man I feel so bad this is this is literally just
being like in a boardy pub and just being like pints pints I don't feel bad at all
well but you're Australian so yeah here's here's some networks on um so
this is on on Kepler right so are you just looking down the list on Kepler yeah
yeah well you know there's some question marks on Kepler now so you know like
well star names there sift chains there certix there surtic done anything what
certek is a Simpson official uh oh wow it is I
didn't realize it's actually okay all right continues Iris knit persistence Sentinel IXO
it's Alex I thought IXO was the same thing as star name Yumi
there's quite a like you don't hear much well I don't hear much from any of those networks I just mentioned I don't does Yumi do it
it's a keychain on his keychain on uh no no Kepler no it's well it's no it's just
the self-add suggested self-suggested chain type thing are they all mint scam
oh maybe you know I think I think um
unless it's been paid for by the chain I think that Kepler should like
you know modify their officially supported chains based on you know some sort of
volume like IBC volume or something or economic value so that they sort of
have the good ones listed instead of like just some I mean everything the whole Kepler
um value add I think is really interesting it feels like I'm probably walking over people a
little bit here with this it feels like they developed it and then just kind of like backed out they don't
accept PRS for their code um I've tried a couple improvements and they they didn't take it but there's
other things they could have done like they could have built in swaps in Kepler right they could have just like used osmosis and taken some of the fees or
something and it seems really strange they can actively improve it like it's not dead everyone [ __ ] uses it they
can they can make it so much better yeah but at this point okay maybe unpopular opinion but I feel
like Kepler is just a way of guarding an incumbent advantage
and getting a little bit of extra pocket money on the side like because the team behind it right it seemed it's it's team
behind osmosis right so they don't need the cash they they cover more than their IPC cost
by a big margin by charging 300K a year or whatever it is yeah but I don't think they like
there's no way star names coming up with 300 Grand a year so I think what it was is the original
um like 10 chains Kepler just added to set themselves up as the wallet right so
these top 10 I think are the top 10 um like the first 10 chains right
and so at that point they didn't really know what was up down left to right and then those new chains were added on they
kind of I don't know if there's some payment system going on for all of them like
um sommelier and axillar were both just brought in t grade I think it goes as well without any sort of like governance
thing saying to pay the man's stride to those I'll say integrades like
can just get in because they basically built wasn't and they're like okay
well sure my point stands though right there's more of a backdoor deal of like friends adding it in versus for Juno for
example you know there's an entire government system of hey this is how much you need to actually pay to get in I think there was a couple of those I
can't think of them off hand so I think stargaze pay them Juno pays them
be interesting to see what happens on the next time like after the years up from the last payment because to pay
them 370 Grand again or just about be everything that [ __ ] Juno's Community Fort Worth that's that's the whole
community pool at this point um well I mean I think this is a broader
question in the bear Market is that the money is rapidly evaporating
and it will be interesting to see what happens when these things Shuffle back around
um you know especially for oh yeah I mean there's a lot of initiatives I think
that are now moot for one of a better term you know well I
mean we're at a point now where in Juno like I can't see us being able to
sustain any kind of like Rewards or develop a program just because it'll annihilate the
[ __ ] um the liquidity it's basically at that point it's just dumping the dev fund on
on users so yeah I mean pretty much all spending for any chain that doesn't that doesn't have
a diversified um treasury that's either other tokens
or um Stables or I mean because this is the great this is the great problem right of
Juno is that when Juno was forty dollars Juno could have put 50 million in their
treasury easily yeah and well if Juno was run by a company
like or if it had a foundation it was run boy no or yeah well no if it was run
by if it was run by you or me when Gino was thirty dollars it was run by you and
it'd still be broke it was run like me it'd have a few have a future
foreign
publicly give you one piece of credit uh so I I think I'm more Paranoid on
diversifying risk than you are although I do value your opinion now but I will
give you the credit that at least once I asked you a question about our company
finances whereas it's like say and you did literally point out something really
obvious and made us over ten thousand dollars so I will credit where credit's due on
occasion you have contributed to our continuing ability to continue functioning as a business
should I not have received a commission
let's talk about this later but anyway there's no finders fee for keeping us in
business that's not how we'll talk we'll talk about the point is
the point is that yeah when Juno was that high right a lot a lot of other
foundations a lot of other organizations would have got Stables would have done other things and it's not really a
slight on do you know necessarily in the sense of like uh the setup of the organization is basically non-existent
and so was that an option it probably would have had to go through governance I mean it could have done there are ways
of doing that um so a thing another thing is crying I've spilled milk I guess is
my point even like chains with the central organization are in the same position because when you're in a bull
market and you haven't been operating that long and everything's going [ __ ] good like it's just it's like are we supposed
to not even talk about that you don't understand
so do you know I actually tried to put my desk up during another uh podcast
like this podcast but like many many weeks ago and it started to tear all the [ __ ] cables out of the wall and I was
like nope if you like press up and then press back down I like got halfway up and then I
had to go all the way back down I was like I mean shorts is like pure minimalist so it doesn't surprise me that desk smoothly goes up and down
that's no there's no thing well I did actually just get a new dock for my laptop so everything goes into one cable
now and it's amazing it's like down from every single port was used down to a single
Thunderbird four port that is just the best that's that's actually quite good yeah no
that's that's how I run all my so actually I'm almost all MacBook now I've
been running a Macbook and uh um and the Windows PC for the better part of a year
now and uh actually probably more like nine months and so now I'm almost entirely
MacBook on the one plug so I've got a couple of stations around the place I don't know if you guys notice but I'm
not entirely in the one place all the time so I've got a couple of like monitor keyboard setups around the place
that I can just whack that USBC in and the other day I found out that I can just Jam my iPad into it as well which
was like very nice because the um I don't know if you guys do any spaces but
space is [ __ ] sucks and it only works we were supposed to do one for Hal the other day we were like the guest
and I couldn't [ __ ] connect to it the doesn't work on iPads at all it
doesn't work on iPad Air doesn't work on Windows doesn't work on Mac doesn't work
on Linux tried to join it up try to join it on Android and it didn't recognize an
external headset it was like this external headset is not compatible it's like what the [ __ ] do you want like
literally I've I've tried four devices at this point like it's so non-functional right
I plugged my [ __ ] phone into my Scarlet and it works beautifully
you know what didn't [ __ ] think of that did I I could have got an extender to I could have gone extended to the
USBC but your Scarlets more recent than mine mine is 14 years old I think yeah
so I don't think it I don't think the drivers will install over USBC to an
Android phone I have only just recently discovered not abusing my ears with
trash noise yeah fair enough yeah that's cool I mean
no to be fair I only got the monitors I only got like really good monitors about five years ago so before that it was
just an interface without any monitors it was only I basically I bought a nice desk and then I was just like hey I could be
one of those [ __ ] [ __ ] that has two isolated speaker stands with you know the
isolation foam on them and then puts two fancy [ __ ] speakers on top and then just has them
and I was just like I was like yeah I can be that [ __ ] guy uh uh so I bought the most expensive
speakers I could afford second hand so because I was like I could buy them new but then I could buy ones twice as good
if I buy them second hand
here before but Guernsey has a good selection using use an emulator for space it's an iPhone emulator of course
[Music] [ __ ] laptop from a previous job why
didn't I think of that what a [ __ ] Giga brain [ __ ] man now I
feel like a [ __ ] brat because I've literally got the iOS emulator obviously I feel like a total
[ __ ] now why didn't I think of that [ __ ] okay well there you go space is space is [ __ ] solved
um so it won't work though you'll go and do it and it'll be this won't work
yeah I mean the amulet is only so good as well like I remember spending a [ __ ] week trying to debug why
something wasn't working with the keyboard in the right way on an IOS app in the emulator before
uh because I was I was away for work and I got a tasked this thing and then I got back to the office where we had all the
different devices and I was like I'm just gonna sense check and it was [ __ ] no there was no bug
on the actual device it's just that all of us had checked it on the emulator and assumed that
we're like oh [ __ ] it's a real bug no it wasn't didn't [ __ ] there wasn't a bug on the actual iOS device
it took a week any idea how frustrating it is to debug a keyboard action like in
a keyboard event on a iOS device for a week so
um completely unrelated I bought a an iPhone yesterday I'm an iPhone guy now
I've been Android for like 15 years why why would you do that
yeah why so I've got a Macbook and an iPad and I
felt like I was missing out some connectivity with the phone
feel like I'm gonna regret it it's very like ruled like that's that's
my impression but then a really cool thing where I noticed that when I'm on my home Wi-Fi
um if I brought a work laptop back from the office uh sometimes I just like have it opens
especially at the moment if I'm working on the [ __ ] stairs I'll just have it open and then I'll be at my desk and the Mac on the desk will be like hey do you
want to just import the [ __ ] Firefox window you have open and you're like well I don't have a Firefall and then
it's like oh because there's a laptop downstairs on and it just knows it's just on it's just on it's just on it's
just on it just on it just on it just on it just on it just on it just on it's just on it's just on it's just on it's
just on it's just on it just that's great I'll add I'll sample that
for my next my next mixtape um so anyway but away from away from iOS
devices sport sporty asked the question a little while ago uh what's gamer node's opinion on
closed Source cosmosom contracts because this is this is we're going to do drama of the week right
I forgot about that drama man I blocked that drama out
is this why you aren't bonded on dig exposing what man don't be bringing that
[ __ ] up now we're all gonna get in trouble that's we can talk about this in an adult and
undramatic way but the so the drama actually was not a
um per second numbers thank you gassney
um so the drama was actually over the whole chains code right rather than just
no that's not true because no it was about um it's just the stable coin yeah it's about it's about kuji wasn't it and
kuji's chain codes actually open source isn't it it's just the smart contracts that are closed Source right
yeah yeah that's so I'm pretty sure that's it it's just that usk is uh
closed source and um Jacob took issue with that well I think it's
more than just usk I think also their um their order book is also closed Source but the point stands
yeah so but I mean like this is a to me
it's a choice that users need to make right like like otherwise said that chains don't
necessarily need to be like we're talking about app Chains man they don't have to be decentralized they don't have
to be open source code they don't have to be any of the [ __ ] that Bitcoin is right so when you buy into a project
it's there are so many [ __ ] projects and companies in the world that are
closed Source right just because there's like this um stigma that that like blockchain
should be this pure thing to do around the original white paper of Bitcoin I
think is [ __ ] like things evolve you know
um Industries evolve and you're buying into a project and the developers right you have to have a certain amount of
trust if you're going to buy into a closed source project and that's that's it if then
undocked developers that don't have much history and and not much credibility
then you'd stay right away from it and if you you know if they've developed
a certain amount of trust then you might give them some trust and use their product but how do you how do you vote
on anything right you vote with your wallet if you think it's [ __ ] don't use it uh if you think you could use it
so well like if you give your credit card to any cloud service right as a company
you can get an out-of-band Bill and get a shitload of money charged you that literally happened to us last month
right and you go ah [ __ ] that's annoying but you've got commercial you've got
commercial agreement in place with them and you have to pay it so and like a really good like and I use the cloud
example like you know grafana or any of these services that you pay per usage
um it's it's like a meme with AWS isn't it that some guys got charged a million dollars because they had a hot partition
in dynamodb right and um obviously AWS did not make them pay a
million dollars because it didn't cost AWS a million dollars provide that compute they just went oh we'll consider
this a billing mistake we'll write it off as like a couple of thousand dollars I think which was the
actual usage right but it just goes to show you that there are a lot of times in life when billing is completely
opaque and pricing is completely opaque and in a former life doing Cloud consultancy doing digital transformation
that sort of stuff you're convincing people to in some cases drop physical data centers owned by their company like
where they own everything they own the servers the building the power and you're going okay well you no longer
have to maintain backup generators and blah blah blah and like knock a hole through a wall when you need a a better
bandwidth connection put through right but in exchange you don't go oh well the
building cost is to rent the service cost is to buy the staff cost this to hire you instead go well we're going to spend
some money right so there's some trust there as well as an additional layer of
risk right and the layer of risk is that you could get the maths wrong about the billing and thus you're you're actually
exposed to a lot more risk Than You Think You Are and that's the same with any project where you're handing over your credit
card and a lot of the crypto stuff you're handing over your wallet essentially or you're handing you're signing a transaction so you are handing
over your wallet you're handing over your card just like in a merchant you know back in the days when somebody would just skim your card under the
counter you ever have that where you went for a beer with your mates and you bought a round of beers and then like a
few then we're talking like 10 15 years ago and then a couple of days later you'd be like what the [ __ ] I got charged for four
rounds and you're like it's because somebody skimmed your card and then just ran a bunch of extra stuff through the till right and that sort of stuff's
really uncommon now like in the outside world I guess right hold on let's let's calculate that a
little bit that is super common in the state still super common but continue you guys don't have chip and pin anymore
do you have shipping pit uh we do yeah but because that's what's up there's no
there's no pin involved with it though it's just jet there's no there's no pin
in Australia okay like six times in the last like two years so
came along I got yeah I know people that didn't got but but like you know only for small months small amounts of money
anyway because yeah but your point stands it wasn't worth interrupting you for it but
yeah but anyway the the I guess the I guess the point is that like you know there are plenty of services that you
know you hand over your billing details to like you know you have service from ovh right there will be things in their
terms of service I guarantee that they're allowed to charge you for and they can like discretionary charge
you in certain situations almost every term service has stuff like that without bound charges and we just assume that we
have a good relationship with this service provider and it will be fine right and yeah I mean there's a
lot of things like that in life that require trust right and that's the that's I think that's the interesting
thing about the whole I've just finished uh you know the the cosmos book club the
Graber thing right and the there's an argument in that book Central to that book on debt that money
um there's no such thing so debt comes before money and money doesn't ever come without trust right so well or more
specifically money tends to evolve when there is no trust but it's never completely devoid of trust because you
have to trust that the money generally can be redeemable for something even that's just the base value right but
it's the reason the money is used as a passable tokens because you don't trust the other you don't trust your counterparty right and so like the
presence of tokens on a blockchain or whatever suggests a low trust environment but it doesn't that load the the need to
then replace that low trust environment with trust in the code
maybe theater I think well I think part of the issue also for me with open
source was closed Source at the moment is that one of the reasons why open source is
considered you know it's held is the next next best thing or has been for the last 40 years is the idea that someone's
going to constantly be auditing it for for fixes someone that's that's uh why I
have auditing it for fixes right and a lot of the hacks that we've seen have been for open source plate code but it
was a black hat hacker that actually found exploits right
we only have a handful of people that do any level of auditing of external code in the cosmos we have block pain who
comes in sometimes I know he does on on a contract basis as well as just kind of something he does
um Jacob sometimes does and chill validation those are only three that I'm aware of that ever go through and review
code and generally it's on a um I don't say selfish basis but if they're going to use something they're
going to audit it to make sure that they're not doing something dumb um they're doing due diligence you could
say most people aren't doing that even if kuji open source their code I doubt that
many people would be auditing it um so I don't fault them go ahead just on
on that as well she'll see like um anyone who actually listens to this podcast at some point please consider
like um delegating some to chili and uh block pain because they are out there
doing the good things it's just that they don't run around marketing so they're really really does a lot of
looking at low-level code and working on what's going on and I think that again it's not
yeah they're both really good validators and they're both really good security guys who do a lot looking around the
ecosystem so you know if you've got some rewards that you're looking for someone to you know compound them with just
consider those two guys I don't think I've ever seen them you know be jailed or anything like that
so they're I don't think you have to fear that kind of stuff so we've had some questions in the in the the chat which I'd like to
just pull out a second so uh don Chen Echo has said
um and I'm sorry if I just murdered your surname there um would you guys mind to invite somebody from kajira on the podcast they
can tell you more about closed Source contracts we have a standing invitation to code hands uh to come on but we have
been rugged in the past so I just sent code hands a message just then in response to Don's uh questions so maybe
maybe it will happen uh we we all individually I think talk I've talked to the Hans at one point or another and
but big fan nice guy um we'd love to have uh him on to talk
about um kajira so it is it is like late at
night for him this podcast time so we may not be able to get him on I I
thought Hans was in a similar time zone to me
like my normal bedtime is like what yeah my normal bedtime is like 9 p.m
after that point I mostly just sign up on things so yeah I'm I don't know on but I get up at like four so I get up
around what the [ __ ] if I go to bed at like 11 I can get up
at like five or six in the morning and if I go to bed at 1 1 30 I can get up at seven seven thirty maybe eight
well I mean going to bed doesn't necessarily been going to sleep right like I got reading I want to do you know
but I'm trying to be I try to be like keyboard down isolated by that point
I'm kind of like play XCOM to like you can barely keep my eyes open and then go
immediately to sleep oh you better believe that I'll play video games while I'm in bed that that totally counts as
like me being inside that doesn't count as being bad you can't have a console in your place of rest that's ridiculous ah
but I don't see what I have is my phone and then I have a controller that I can attach to the phone kind of like a switch
yeah but you shouldn't have your phone in the bedroom that's like that
I know it's shameful and embarrassing but it's it's well you need to phone phone goes by by ground coffee and then
when it goes off in the morning you have to walk to next to where the coffee is to turn the phone off and then you smell
the coffee and you're like uh I guess I should get up so so so okay so here's what I used to
do to get up it used to be the I have this app that I would need to do math problems in order to actually turn the
alarm off but that's devastating it was fantastic I absolutely loved I
like doing math in my head so it was just a lot of fun and you can like snooze the sound but the problem is my my wife would have different hours than
me and so I'd be like six six am rolls around or whatever and I'm starting to do math problems on my phone
and she wasn't a fan of that so now it's mostly just that is [ __ ] it would probably be fine for me because I'm the
night person uh rather than the morning person so I'm you if I do [ __ ] like that to get myself up I'll literally be like
[ __ ] turning my alarm off and being like right fine I should probably make some coffee then and like like she's
already like [ __ ] writing or doing something clever or something I'm just like oh [ __ ] morning people morning
people like and like loads of my friends and morning people as well so when I like stay with them I'll like pull my
reheated corpse out of bed at like eight and just like stumble downstairs be like cool thanks for putting me up and
they're like all ready to go to work and they're like oh cool you're up um do you mind like uh just getting the [ __ ] out of my house please and you're like oh
yeah good I think so you've got to get away [Laughter] I don't need assistance to wake up in
the morning I just wake up it's [ __ ] like rise well done well done
everybody [ __ ] comments yeah back in the comments right so that's the
comments um so yeah this is a good point that Ben Davis makes um he says I think the close
element should be clear on the website transparency is important um partial match says the concern as far
as I know is that usk will get bigger and The Wider Cosmos and any risk will be spread around as the UST
that's a that I think is a fair concern right because some people did spot the fundamental flaw in UST
because of looking at the code rather than looking at how it was described right
umt is that I asked [ __ ] heaps of people and no one could really tell me how it worked
I'm like how about this UST and they're like yeah man it's really going off I'm like yeah but how does it work well so
and this is the other thing about auditing right I've written a lot of smart contract stuff particularly around
nfts I think normally I might still even be a maintainer on the cosmos and nfts repo right so I've been working with
that stuff for a long time and was was designing something today that works
with nfts as part of a project that's ongoing
and I was trying to work out the implications of something that's in the cosmoasm nft standard and I actually had
to send a message to a friend of the podcast Jake from the genocore team and be like hey dude what the [ __ ] up with
this thing like I feel like I'm missing something really obvious and he pointed out he was like oh no it's just for this use case duh and I was like right yes
you're right of course it is and therefore XYZ I was like okay I think actually the Design's fine I'm
being paranoid about nothing but like that that whole process like to to a
step through the implications of a thing that I know very well but like had forgotten some element of
and there needed to be like sense check and all that kind of stuff you go like that may that especially in the context
of auditing you're like yeah I'm not sure that even I mean I don't know how many lines of smart
contracts I've written at this point it's 10K 20K maybe more written tutorials done workshops talked to
people in real life talked to people on things whatever me and Callum did that series
and yet am I confident to sign off on a smart contract
no yeah I mean I I would back you there
um I didn't audit for the quantum wallet I don't know a month ago maybe um not a public one just just it's a
closed Source wallet on Aptos and I just want to make sure that if I want to use it that it was it wasn't anything
ridiculous like what happened on Solana six months back or whatever um
and it can't be overstated how important modularity within code is to be audited
um it's whenever you do an audit you really want to break things up to individual components and if the app or
whatever it is you're auditing isn't well broken up it's borderline impossible um just because it requires so much
in-depth knowledge Pont unfortunately was was really well broken up so it was pretty easy to just go and look how
they're doing like doing encryption looking out they're sending out um different uh transactions and stuff
that was fine but auditing is is
it's a crazy skill doing code reviews in general is is a really undervalued skill
in my opinion or underappreciated um so yeah to I think it was Dawn I
think Dawn said there's a niche for for work in Cosmos code editing code auditing yes absolutely that's what
surdic does um and that's what some someone audited um code recently
for Cosmos they said at the beginning that they weren't um like they aren't custom Cosmos and
then there was an exploit that that happened soon after um because it's hard it's hard and you need
you need a specific specialization and you know if you're code auditing company and you specialize in the cosmos well
suddenly now you're kind of bound to the cosmos and and a really kind of scary way Cosmos is bound to itself if Adam
goes down everything else goes down so as a business decision it can be quite scary
yeah I think the I mean there's a there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of
things going on with that but like I remember when like the prop 16 smart contract
um we did a lot of the work on that and I remember I I almost every line of
that contract is quite a trivial contract um but almost every line of that contract has a co-comment on it
because that was the only thing I could think of that would mean that somebody like way
more than I would ever write on anything else just I wanted like every more or less
everything to be exhaustively documented so like if it says like [ __ ]
[Music] um config.save that would be a comment above it go like here we are going to
save the configuration the configuration was passed in when the contract was instantiated or something like that
because otherwise like if you're in a hurry and you don't have the context of writing it like that that understand or
let that piecing together like I don't know about like by you guys but like I I definitely find that I either understand
it completely or I don't understand it at all and I think that's why and I've said this a lot I think about the cosmos
SDK that like I've been working with it now for nearly 18 months and I still probably understand it less than any
major piece of software that I've worked with that length of time right um and I don't think it's just me because
I've worked with a lot of software over the years but like it's part I think it's part of this character of like the
way my brain is maybe broken is that I can either understand and think completely or not at all and when you look at auditing something you're like
okay well somebody else has to audit this maybe they'll just straight away just like see how these pieces fit together and then Happy Days or maybe
they're like me and they're going like [ __ ] okay I see that this looks like a normal contract with lots of very normal
bits but I need to understand how all of these pieces fit into other in a great into a greater whole and like nine times
out of ten the quickest way to get to that point is by talking to another person and if that person's not there
then they have to have a conversation with you somehow and that's like co-comments and it's so hard
um like I think anybody who's done any like um especially maybe last year before a lot of the documentation was
written anybody who's done a lot of cause and wasm stuff would have had to look in cause and wasms code base and
the VM and all that sort of stuff and it's really really hard when people haven't put comments to understand so
very recently I was doing a bit of stuff I was way too burnt out to be doing this for reference and I had to stop and I've
I'm gonna have to take some time off and I'll come back to it when I come back but I was trying to help out with some
of the cosmoasm SDK stuff which involved basically looking at the existing implementations of Merck uh Merkle trees
for storage in um in rust-based versions of the SDK be
that base coin or be that auger which is what's under gnome nomic
and no make an auger is really cool and like from a 10 000 feet I understand it
five thousand feet understand it one thousand feet understand it actual implementation there are just
loads of things where you're just like I don't immediately see where this is used I have to scroll through the code base
to find where it's used and as you make a note in your pad and you're like okay I think this raw iterator is used for
direct access to rocksdb but I don't see why it's needed because it's wrapped elsewhere but you just write it down and
you move on and you go back to the thing you're looking at but you just have to unwind all that context to get back to where you were and then you're like okay
so that's not the thing I was looking for so what does this other thing do and it was interesting because without like you can see how something works and
you can come up with a hypothesis but being definitively certain that that's what it does is that's another jump
again and so I I sent Matt Bell quite a few pretty dumb questions where I was just
like look I why is this bit not exposed or why is this bit over here exposed whatever and it was probably very annoying for him
but it it was really interesting because I think it reminded me again of like as an
engineer how much you take for granted when you've written a piece of code that something
is obvious and I've from that experience I was just like oh my God like I need to remember this feeling for the
next time I decide whether to write a proper code comment or not because this is really really interesting because I
would imagine to Matt who presumably spent a good period of time thinking about that code writing it those bits
that I've just mentioned were probably super obvious what they did you know especially with Russ the compiler shouts
at you if you do anything wrong anyway so like you can get the code to come that's the weird thing about rust sometimes you get the code to compile
but you don't fully understand what the difference was between your version that wasn't 100 working and then
yeah no for sure if we go back to the prop 16 thing even with you doing that
there was it was still in a very vague sense like he squint a little bit it was still exploited right the wrong address
was used to send the coins to so even with all that effort put in something still went wrong and that really goes to
show like the impossibility of doing an effective and possibilities a bit strong but
potential people who will hire Envoy or needlecast to do consultancy work I would just like to stay for the record
that we did not work on the code that uh but but yes
yeah yeah well the point stands something still went wrong even though every single line had a a comment with
it yeah I mean this is the thing like I I also for liabilities sake the the
contract was audited but am I certain there's no vulnerabilities in that no
no so so it's kind of useless me going like oh well the bit of code that was that should have a problem was elsewhere
it's like well how do you know really in the grand scheme things you only know when you've been owned don't you really
um so we had a bunch more comments and I've kind of derailed it by talking about co-comments and [ __ ] auditing
there um so yeah there's some I mean I think we'd we generally speaking are on the boat that
usk should probably be open source well it's kind of my feeling like I don't think
everything needs to be open source as part of a you know how is an open source I know that project hasn't even launched
yet but it's not going to be there are pieces that will be open source there are pieces that won't be open source is
probably how that will happen because we just know their projects they're just going to take the code who already have
millions of dollars in the bank and VCS and we're bootstrapped so why would we give people who already have a
competitive and Commercial Advantage an opportunity to just take the code and run with it that's like dumb
um so I do understand kuji's point of view they must be looking around seeing some very big competitors
um but usk should probably be open sourced um
yeah so there's some questions so interoperability so Ben Davis says I guess interoperability means contagion
is a risk even if you don't invest in the chain that's really interesting because we saw that a little bit we saw
the risk of that with UST and Terror but it was sort of contained um we did talk about this a little bit
with mesh security last week as well though that I think the risk of that is probably going to increase in the
interchain I don't know what UT think foreign
I'll buy that um so sporthy's also said I think so I
think so much of blockchain culture is built around coda's law but we're closed Source contracts you are following the
law you can't even read very fair point um it's probably yeah it's a bit of a
cultural relic of or artifact or corollary of of that
um that's culture to date like in blockchain we have to like
you know change our thinking over time because if it's if it stays the same and
we just [ __ ] on anyone who tries to do anything different you're just going to scare people away so
you know you can't just have a monoculture of this one thing in an industry you have to like allow people
to do their own thing and let the free market decide what they want to do with that
so just because like to date blockchain has been about a thing I don't think
that necessarily in the future it needs to be all that thing
and I think to your point um I think Cosmos is its own microcosm within that
that sphere of coda's law we haven't I mean we've proven that we we kind of
don't follow that with prop 16 we were like well code says this but we're going to undo that and more recently there
have been multiple double signs lately and they've been reverted um on secret uh who was it uh chain of
Secrets double-signed um that was kind of that one I give a password like I'm
doing the double sign because it was secret Labs that had them do it and anyway and then there was another one I
think in Chihuahua that uh there was a double sign and they reverted that one and now I think for stride for everstake
they double signed but now there's a strong conversation happening about maybe they should on the next upgrade
undo that double sign as well so that's another example where we're just kind of like absconding with Dakota's law thing
when they did double sign this did happen they did get penalized so I I think I think especially because
they [ __ ] double sign on Two Chains as well it's like literally but we need to [ __ ] double signed you should be
off that chain you have been Tombstone the intention of the [ __ ] code is clear like if we're not gonna do
tombstoning do an upgrade where you [ __ ] change your Genesis you change the [ __ ] sign penalty to zero just do
that it's possible to turn that [ __ ] off I was gonna say change the code so you don't get tombstoned just [ __ ] like
people just [ __ ] get rid of that like well I mean I think that's what Akash did they were two double signs on this
last upgrade um and nothing happened I think I think they have it disabled so
there are chains that have double signing turned off so we know it's okay so just follow that lead so what you're
saying is you can try and double spend on Akash and it'll be fine I guess so yeah because there were two
validators that double signed on the last upgrade so we could we could take the open
source Akash code uh modify the binary so it's always just trying to double spend
and see what happens basically I I suppose yeah
but this is how needlecast finally double side it's like okay I have to go to Twitter to be like okay
yes we did double sign but In fairness we were trying to economically attack a network with the single worst kind of
validator behavior that was possible just because we were kind of curious that's not bad is it profitable
yeah it's okay guys we didn't double sign because of incompetence like all those other guys we did it because we
were actually being malicious which is fine and don't you worry I'm putting up a signaling proposal to be undoubles
signed here soon yeah well you just go like well it's kind of like a gray hat situation we'll
return the funds but uh hey also maybe pay us for that
audit we just did look I don't really like the the
restoring of the double signees like it seems to me that plenty of other people manage to not double sign so
like I don't think there's a good enough reason to say we're going to restore you
in an upgrade I think yeah I I agree for sure the only exception I have is for secret just because it was the
developers there like Hey we're going to give you this testing binary this will most likely cause you a double sign but if you if you do then we'll we'll undo
it that's the only exception I'm willing to give also that's what you know test Nets are
for sure but yeah I mean like just I mean most
people do their double signing in upgrades and there are things you can do
to give you the optimum chance to not double sign so you know other people are doing it I
don't see why they give dispensation to people who aren't going to the additional effort in costs to make sure
that they don't and then people who are you know like
in my opinion it's a competence thing if you double sign because there is no
reason why that should happen especially with the explanations I've seen on Twitter
it seems like they exactly do the thing that makes you double sign and if that's
their systems and their process that are making them do that they shouldn't have that system or
process and they should have fleshed that out in a test net they shouldn't get to a point where they're double
signing on a main net so for people to go oh that's okay you've done a postmortem and you've uh you know
identified your issue good on you I think that's not you know good enough yeah and part
of the conversation I I agree with you first of all uh second part of the conversation is around whether like what
the intent of double signing is um a lot of people are an impression that double signing is to protect against malicious actors specifically
and I don't know if that's true um it sounds likely to be true and but that's where the argument comes
from well they they obviously weren't malicious so why would we punish them they just made a mistake
wow because you should because making mistakes is also malicious potentially yeah like are you also taking people at
face value like you yeah everstake make a shitload of cash I assume so you're
going like well they they can't be malicious because they want to continue making money it's just like oh yeah well when has an organization that makes
loads of money ever been malicious or worked against the interests of a sovereign group of individuals or a
community I can't ever think in all of my reading on various subjects
of the situation in which that happened like or like last couple weeks with FTX Maybe
well yeah the same conversation is actually happening there they're saying that it's not fraud because
like they didn't they weren't acting maliciously it was just pure incompetence and I just it that's a really and it's a calculated
defense strategy in these kind of cases because it works it's really really hard to prove the fine line between idiots
and basically negligence and Criminal Intent but you know the whole point of
having like a really high bar dramatic slash is to just be like sorry but this is a low it's either a low trust
environment or it's not you know back to the thing we were talking about with tokens and and projects like if we're
going to act like it's a low trust environment you've got to enforce the rules like yeah I agree I mean that's a great point
right all we're all doing this because we're talking high value low trust that's what blockchain solves that is
what blockchain solves and if we're trying to break the trust aspect of it then what are we doing well also like the
thing I always bang on about and I banged on about until it's blue in the face about uh with um prop 16 is like
this FTX thing is the [ __ ] this is now regulation is happening it's gonna happen in a big [ __ ] way now well
done everybody you [ __ ] it uh everyone at FTX that is they [ __ ] it and the
best thing is those [ __ ] were regulated in the first place and they [ __ ] played fast and loose with
customers fiat currency effectively it's not even all the rest the other [ __ ] all the defy degeneracy all the Ponzi [ __ ]
the thing that we got [ __ ] by was the fear on-ramp which is absolutely
deliciously [ __ ] but like the thing that drives me crazy is that every time
you are every time you recover a chain because a validator double signs you are
just showing Regulators you can do it you were just showing that a chain is is not decentralized this was the thing
with the the whole modifying Wales wallet the second you do that the second you do that proof of stake is
compromised and proof a stake in the cosmos right now is so compromised that like I mean as a business we are
actively in a position now where I suspect that within the next two years
the legislation will change in the UK such that being on a cosmos chain is not a good
idea because I think the regulator is going to take the position that it is not
immutable I think that's actually what they're going to say they're going to say look no these are all run by foundations which are companies and it's
up to you to have a non-criminal uh or a legally tenable relationship with that
Foundation right and that's going to put regulatory pressure on us because if they're in the [ __ ] Caymans like a
lot of these foundations are then you are the one that tends well you your company anyway is the one that tends to
be held you know you're in a jurisdiction where you can be held liable and I don't know whatever it's it's a it's a
[ __ ] bug bear of mind that anyway but um I've no we've still got a bunch of comments so I want to try and uh get
through yeah yeah go ahead more uh how is it that we've got like five viewers that everybody is commenting
um so uh sporty had another comment saying permission closed Source Cosmos and
contracts makes makes the gov prop to upload it seem like a fast yeah that's
kind of hard to oh that's a great Point deny that's a really good point
um thoughts on stargate's names I think null must have replied to that I don't
think that they're not live yet um but yeah it's it's it's a I think conceptually similar to the DNS
d-e-n-s uh name service in that they're nfts but these are stargazed nfts
um a lot more of the work is on the uh the auction mechanic and that sort of
stuff so the the big difference between that and d e n s is that if you
sell or you have your name recycled every year it's kind of like having an
email with a custom domain if somebody can buy your email off you next year because you forget to renew it then you
get owned right um and that's like a bit of a problem for any Downstream services that want to
use a name service is that if the names are being constantly recycled it's very hard to actually build verification on
top of them um that's that's I'd say the major difference other than that they're both nfts under the hood which again makes
sense with stargaze right just a little bit there with the nfts I find it really interesting that so many of these
decentralized name Services still have like subscription models of every year you need to renew it that seems very
contrary to what it should be and I appreciate that d-e-n-s does not do that
yeah that's kind of was kind of the idea from the start and I should say actually I actually managed to get some code written today and the thing that I was
writing code for is version two of dens which is essentially the conversion to
being a uh or the beginning of the work for it to become a proper did provider
where the it has claims attached to it that are verifiable proofs say they've got a public key with them so the first
version of this was just having a key based style pgp key but that's basically evolving to actually be properly
co-located keys so that should be cool when it happens
um and that will make it pretty different somebody's asked a question about IBC domains I have I haven't seen the source ironically I've seen the the
UI for IBC domains but I don't get how it's different to dens I don't get how it's different from stargazed names it
looks the same to me um having a meta name that's not the the
back 32 is not that doesn't mean anything that's just metadata so you can
constitute it however you like dens just does that's human readable but as long as it's globally unique it doesn't
really matter um sporthy says uh I might be missing something but can't the contract IP be
protected by strict licensing for usage while still keeping the code open source yes but only if you trust all the people
around you to not infringe uh your uh the license which you can't in this
space there are too many nons stargaze most of their code is open source but it's not open license and that's true of
quite a bit of comfios code as well for reference um so yeah that's interesting
um and
any okay we're nearly at the end of the comments uh FTX help so Ben Davis says
FTX help my no coiner colleagues understand why blockchain self-custody is a good idea I think that's a really
good point and that might end up being one of the positive corollaries of this whole Fiasco right
is that people might understand that the Hat well I don't think The Regulators are going to understand and the
newspapers aren't going to understand but the hack happened at the most centralized point
of the whole ecosystem and that feels like the takeaway to me unfortunately for people on the outside
looking in the understanding of sex decks self-custody
um you know custodial stuff doesn't mean anything to them
they're just words that go over their head while they're reading an article all this is done is lost trust in crypto
and it'll take a long time to get it back
yeah I mean I agree I I would say that even most of us don't fully understand the magnitude of what self-custody is I
mean if you just say that for example that your mnemonics actually like you never actually own your coins they're like your mnemonics don't unlock your
coins you just kind of get like a magnifying glass into your wallet and control it through that that's really what's really happening
you don't actually have any ownership it's it's a weird kind of made a discussion but anyway
but yeah I mean to my my point is is that to like 90 of the population who don't
know about self-custody tokens or they know about is what's in the news and
that is that you know FTX was hacked or whatever and now
all of crypto is [ __ ] because of it that's all they see and that just loses trust in in crypto and that's
you know hard to get back when it's taken so long to get this much trust in the first place