is
[Music]
well that was confusing hello and welcome to game of nodes a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent
validator teams and now I really don't know whether I'm coming or going uh on
the today's episode we've got udit joining us from stake easy uh which I guess uh Juno folks May recognize as a
liquid staking protocol that's recently Gone live there um and yeah I'm getting bullied for my
lack of organization on tweeting so I'm going to mute myself and go and deal with Twitter
I think it's done somebody just did you just [ __ ] do it we'll do it you just did you do it or
maybe maybe you scheduled it I think he might that's actually how you pronounce it you
know um like no I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make it personal I'm not gonna pay it's not I'm gonna rise above it
it's totally fine it's totally fine so liquid saving let's just talk about liquid staking immediately or get me off
the hook um so uh idiot do you want to tell us a little bit background I I'm always
interested in this as a Dev like what's your what's your background how did you get into crypto and stuff and how long you've been working in the space
yeah and then we'll talk about stake easy but first I want to know about you buddy
well hey well it's it's you and you like is there is there a team of you guys because uh
you know just to get that out of the way first is there a team yes uh there's a team of uh I think six or seven people
like it fluctuates some people died but we have like three rust developers
and two front developers and one content writer awesome man now tell us about you
okay so I I think yeah so I I graduated in 2020 when the covet hit so after that I
joined full-time in our printing company at a trading firm so it goes bidding out
the C plus plus infrastructure for high frequency Trading so I worked there for nearly uh an year and a half completely
from home so I am kind of like the guy who needs to be told what to do to be on
schedule so I was working from home so I was procrastinating asthma and so I could so they they found it okay your
work is good but your discipline is not so I said okay listen alignment and at the time uh I think around last year
January my co-founder Amit he was already working on algorand
so yeah he was working and looking and so there's a tool called Hardware from
ethereum which uh simplifies your uh process of building your contracts so the same tool was being buried by him
and a guy
I'm really sorry about this no that's all good man hydrate thank you
so yeah I was saying that so he was building algo algo Builder so I think he
he already was working it uh for around two years so at that time Bitcoin was going from twenty thousand to thirty
thousand to forty thousand and every other news was covering it so I was like okay there's something here that I can look
into so I discussed with him like what's the development side of things so he got
me through what the swap is and what uh contracts are and what ethereum is so
then I was like okay I have some free time let me look into it so we first decided okay we didn't make a swap then
we saw that okay every chain has a swap then it doesn't make any sense to build another swap
then we sort of found out okay uh the cosmos SDK has a lot of things going on and the cosm was a mess relatively newer
language as compared to solidity and there's a lot of lack of tooling here that we see okay now we can identify
three or four points that we can improvise on and we'll combine that into one tool that can be used to like really
simplify the process and make it more robust for the user for the developer itself so we built out polar with this
development framework for secret Network and we got the Grant from Secret labs for developing that and
yeah so after that in December we started working on liquid shaking because we found out okay uh liquid
saying is something that is a really good fit for a proof of stick chain and
we saw that okay Dido has worked on ethereum and found her like a really good solution that works for uh retail
investor for instance like green theorem if you wanted to uh stake your teeth you needed at least 32 weight at that time
so Lido solved that problem by if anyone has one it they can also take that
through uh Lido and get STDs so the same solution we found that okay it's not
available throughout Cosmos we can first start with secret and then see how we can also simplify the ux because if you
see uh the first text came uni swap it was a good solution but then curve came and a lot of other swaps came that uh
improved that model even further or like optimize it came with limit orders and stuff like that so you saw that okay in
liquid string also this is kind of like the first generation of the protocol and then it can be improved further by
iteration by different teams so we also saw that okay the first thing that's really uh important here is that several
exchanges Central exchanges like binance they have these features so like okay you can trade your uh crypto like uh
but they know that okay most investors are going to hold it so why not just provide them with some yield
opportunities and I've seen most of the yield opportunities are indirectly just
uh sticking with the ventilator but they take a huge cut but and the end use of the retail user doesn't know that
there's a yield coming from and how much is that you learn how much they are taking just know that okay it's better
to have uh it generating some yield than to have no yield at all so
our end goal is to provide that level of user experience and give the
transparency of D5 to the end user and liquid saying just one step into it
so um it has been uh so the Juno implementation I haven't really looked
too much into like the the sacred implementation and stuff like that but it seems like you are starting to gain
some users of the platform as well um I'm not sure is it accelerating or is it sort of tapered off is it hit like a
bit of an S curve or is it it's much more attraction than we got in
secret because now I think it's around about to reach 400 000 you know like
when I had uh interviews with Don it was 300 000. so yeah that was like about a
week ago right yeah yeah um so have you found uh like what what
uses for Essie Juno and B Juno have you got so far or you like working on
Partnerships with people or is it um purely at the moment just farming in the
um Juno swap it's uh so three uh swaps are there
osmosis we have Pairs and osmosis and also on Loop decks so the next step is
to find uh is to find a good uh a good Landing protocol that we can use so
we're looking into ways maybe we can collaborate with mass if it comes to Junior any time in your future or maybe
also we can utilize IBC to send the estrogen over to any other thing so there's also Sienna land which we
integrated a sec secret with but we'll see like if you can integrate as you know with that also so you can have
liquid state you know which you can take over to lending protocol on secret and then take out let's say maybe usdc who
are depositing that um so so the next move is is into
lending um so is that that's just going to be on
Juno or are you going to integrate that like across Juno and then into secret
um whenever the ux is better because uh
with secret like it's it's an unpopular take but I see that uh a lot of uh like
for instance with our application on secret and Juno the Juno RPC is much more responsive than the secret RPC is
because like uh it's a different model that secret has applied which leads a lot of work and so they haven't reached
that uh up to that level that they can integrate all of those features and also make them stable enough so it kind of
requires a lot of work to reach that level of stability because they're taking their own uh kind of like a lot
of so basically they're adding the was that custom awesome engine was me I
guess so that itself in in a nutshell is a lot of work so if you had that kind of
work it kind of like makes you also want to put extra work to even make it stable and currently like there's a lot of uh
tensing in timeouts and things like that that we have to make sure on the front-end side is handled so it's really
hard to make the end user understand that wastes that are coming from is it from the API is it from the front end or
is it from the contract or is it from the network itself so that difference I feed uh is there to
maybe in terms of just a simple ux experience for example like if you look at why osmosis is a really good Dex is
that it just works it works really well for the case that it's been built for and yeah yeah so that's I feel that's
the main thing that the protocol should first look into get so you just want to
get the first thing that you're building to be as much right as possible it can be or as much stable as can be
so so you're basically like on your MVP at the moment and then you're gonna start building on that um and adding
different products yeah uh so first just just get the MVP
asthma this uh working perfectly as it can be so when we launched in March we only had the SC token so it's only this
SEC credit no B Secret at the moment and then we were going okay we saw that okay Lido did implement this kind of tool uh
two token model when they had requesting on Terra because they wanted to integrate with anchor so they had this
model where they had SG Luna and B Luna interchangeable but uh so the B Luna was
used to provide uh as a collateral on anchor and the St Luna was the auto
compounding version where you just want to hold the SC token you just want to Auto compound your words you just hold
that but if you want to use it in a protocol like anchor you need to convert to pedona but what we saw in that model
is that uh I'm sorry can you go back and explain this there real quick did you say that SC Luna you can claim the
rewards manually whereas be Luna it would Auto compound making it kind of
inherently deflationary is that correct it would be
sorry go ahead yeah
so b b Juno um or B lunar or B whatever the B's so
they don't change in value that I think they've got like uh so they've got a claimable reward
um and that SC Juno is like an auto compounding reward so yeah when you look
at the pool the the swap rate for SE Juno versus B Juno goes down over time
so at some point like Essie Juno will be worth you know more well it is worth
more now than b Juno um so that the swap break changes but only one of those can be used for
Lending and those types of things so Essie just keeps getting idle compounded but B I can use for Lending in the future and those types of things is that
also part of that yes so you can do uh all or you can do Landing with both of
them but the B version is makes more sense for uh providing liquidity for a
swap because I see you if there's essay Junior and Juno after one year it's going to be a different exchange rate so
there's a fixed impermanent loss always that's associated with it but if
yes sorry now continue no please
be 1s15 with Juno so if you provide liquidity uh through that pair you'll
get uh no impermanent loss but also you will not get any sticking words because like now it's going to the contract the
RP content that you're providing it to so the better version here that we're
implementing further is that when you provide liquidity for B Juno Juno pair you won't get any permanent loss but all
the singing rewards we can redirect from our treasury back to the lp holders so
now and and this also if you implement our own swap we can do this uh
compounded every 24 hours so each LP token holders is also getting more uh be
Juno rewards so that they for example if you hold any Beach you know it's just like plane staking where like you don't
have any uh these you know but you also have access to that 100 Juno let's say that you have staked so you have to come
every day do a transition of your claim and deposit again to Auto compound you can do the same with B Juno but if let's
say there's a swap that does the contract does that for you and now you're holding the lp tokens which
represents your B Juno for which your second rewards are being claimed every 24 hours and so you are basically
getting the second course manual future IP tokens and now you are also not facing any Implement rows so that's the
perfect solution I see which is much better than the current liquidity Solutions right now
is the perfect solution for Lending uh for landing kind of things
uh no you're muted yeah yeah okay so yes I actually I had a
question um while you're talking about Bloody completely forgot what it was um oh sorry I was actually going to ask
about the uh being able to collect those rewards so what came to my mind
um as you you were explaining was the the contracts um
for this uh like custodial so you swap your your um Juno for a b Juno or SE
Juno so there's going to be um quite a lot of uh Juno sitting in your contracts
um if people continue to use it so I just wanted to know um you know like what have you been doing
on your side for auditing and making sure of the security of the contracts is
that some sort of process you go through on each iteration and before you go live
or is it um at the moment are you just sort of uh doing that internally or
so it's majorly just internally right now we got an audit when we released from Secret but when I read the audit
report I was like the time yeah so um if the report this in
conclusion was that okay you guys wrote a lot of integration tests which helped us tested better
so I was like okay did you just run our tests and that was the audit so what we
did when we released on Juno was that okay we added the bijuna model so I
think for a month and a half uh both of us were just writing as much as tests we
can and so as I mentioned earlier so polar also had uh one feature where it
allowed you to do integration testing through the JS client So currently if
you are building any Cosmos or contracts you can write unit tests in that rust file itself so these are the rest tests
that are running just for the contract and it's not an instance of the content that's deployed
on a network but you can on your own use the cosum JS client and write your own
assertions and tests when you integrate with let's say when you are interacting with the Juno test net or even the main net you can say assertions like okay now
I instantiate with these parameters if I execute this transaction this should happen so we we built out a framework
where it abstracts all of these things into a simple uh testing scripts where
you don't have to like bootstrap all of the Define you don't have to Define every time how the setup is going to be
so we use that and we wrote a lot of integration tests for like every other
day I was just waking up and writing as for justice again and so I I thought it
was just going to be a couple of weeks but after a couple of weeks I was like it's going to be much more than that so the more tests I was writing I was like
okay I was losing more confidence while I was writing the test but by the end of
it so all of the security is just internally to make sure that okay we have uh made sure that okay if one
person is right in the contract uh the part of the contract that's going to be tested by the general person so that way
we can just cover up the third party audit kind of thing where we can say okay the person who's writing content is
not the one who's testing it so it's a different context the other guy also has yeah okay so it's more of like an
internal internal testing environment um yeah I mean like you know a different
person is kind of like a third party right I mean maybe the devs have the devs in the room have more of a a
like comment on that but um yeah I mean as long as well at least
you're doing something right yeah and there's a chance of loss right I mean there is a chance that it isn't a
contract and there is a there is a possibility of loss for those tuna holders right so we do have other types
of things we do have like a few uh like safety measures that we implemented first is
that if we if any of us find that okay there's something going on fishing going on there we can just immediately post
the contracts through the admin call we can also like uh we have a kill switch
where like we just stop all of the processes like no one can interact with the contract and the contract will not
further stake any tokens and will also start to ask all of the Juno tokens and
anyone who has take their Journal through SC June or B Journal can also claim those so those things are also
implemented just to make sure that if in case anything goes wrong we have the solution in place
right yeah I could see the problem with Auditors I think we've had this conversation a few times around just
finding I mean smart I mean maybe maybe Frey can talk about this as well but finding kids there's a special place in
the in the phrase heart for auditors well finding capable smart contract
Auditors that will stand behind that audit it has to be a pretty short list
especially especially on the wasm side right it's new technology and everything else like there has to be a has to be a
pretty short list of people you would trust including yourself I think phrase he's tuned out
yeah he's like has a little smile every now and then and he's like nah don't care I don't know if you if you if you
trust yourself as a programmer that's perfect I would say that's yeah
I we've and we I guess we we've been going through a period while we're getting ready for mainnet with the Hal
contracts and that's like surprisingly complex logic actually for
the for the way the staking works because of the number of posts I mean even on the test nap like it was tens
and tens of thousands ten thousand users all that sort of thing
and it it just like the the amount of edge cases you drive out with that is
[ __ ] bananas frankly like it yeah
yeah that that was something we like I I came into that with uh
uh a lot of faith that the rust compiler would save us and as somebody who gave up maths like
the earliest time I could like age 15 or whatever 14 15 whatever I was like as whatever like maths no big
deal just knock it together write some unit tests rust compiler handles the rest yeah
nope not when you get weird overflow bug that causes something to roll back
atomically and you're like okay cool no harm done potentially in a crazy
scenario where that's like oh it's right at the end of an Epoch and at the end of the epoch we do this calculation and
then this happened and then it yeah it fails and it goes okay well hold this I'm not going to do anything I won't
give that user those rewards and then the epoch ticks over and those rewards just got sent to the
dark dimension or something and you're like well technically every component of the system did the thing it was told to
do it's just that you as a programmer told it to do the wrong [ __ ] thing
um but that like that edge case this is what I've actually been thinking a lot about auditing this week because we've been trying to track this one down and
and about code reviews because specifically I was trying to track down what problem was because one of uh the
dev who wrote that piece of code uh was uh in in transit somewhere and
then had a family thing or something I go it's not important but I had four days basically broken days to to look at
it and in the end I couldn't work out what was
wrong in the time available but I did find another bug that nobody else was aware of
and that just shows you that we live in a hellscape and this is why we can't have nice things because
what what I found basically the fix for the bug in the end was that
and I completely missed this because I just assumed I looked at the setup for the unit test and went ah that looks
fine and moved on something was 73 and it should have been 75 because that long story short that's
the basic mass for how the blocks are set up in the unit test so what was happening was it wasn't advancing an
Epoch and actually triggering the correct behavior and if you did that everything passed it was fine there was
actually no bug and I tore my hair out for two days trying to isolate the bug that did not exist
by rewriting loads and loads of rust code that you use mutes to be immutable and replacing every single operation
every single math operation in the code base to like whatever and messing around
with all of the types and whatever and it was none of that there was no bug
s but in doing that I found another bug
and the other bug but I accidentally I changed all that [ __ ] and then when I did that the the
chaos test in like one in three times just did a massive like overflow like a
multiplication overflow and it turned out that that was just because of like
the random we had there's some random number generators in our unit test to be like oh just give this user 10 million
and see what happens if they try and stake it and then pull it out and this other user's doing this crazy thing
um and then we it looked it was like oh nobody's ever going to have that much it's not possible and then we did some
math it was like oh yeah the Dow will have this much at Genesis and like if in
a hypothetical World nobody really Stakes very much for the first uh 20 days let's say and then the Dow elects
to stake this amount and then they gain rewards for 10. yeah okay that that multiple that multiplication overflow
will occur and the contract will be bricked and we'll never be able to recover it and we were like holy [ __ ] that's actually
but but like three of us have looked at that code three of us have worked for that code and we knew it quite well
so this is a very long way to where it's saying like if we're brought in an auditor
it's not [ __ ] way what's the moral of the story like [ __ ] happens randomly and then you find
problems based on use right right I think that's basically yeah your whole history is
like well let's be fair actually maybe the audience who would run some fancy piece of like code scanning okay and it would
go oh this is the moral of the story is this multi this this might overflow in a weird way you're not expecting because
that is actually to be fair something that code scanning sometimes can do yeah well so but then there's last week uh
Osmos Hall did it and Todd's first response was dang my code didn't or like my literature didn't catch any of that
because he he audited osmosis and so like he said those those linting or
those automated tests it's just messed up sometimes okay so maybe it wouldn't catch it maybe
would be screwed but anyway so the part of that story is that two days of my life was not wasted but not for the
reason I thought the moral of the story is don't hire [ __ ] coders on trains
that time oh okay in a plane it seems equally as hard to code from to
that point did you guys did you guys run this on uni on on the Juno test that and
like how did you I mean howl had the that that world that story also that that not the flex right Hull team but
they had a couple 10 000 people that are using that that code in testnet to be able to try it out
Flex Flex um but the hell too that the hell uh yeah yeah like well Subway Bots let's be
let's be real let's be kind 80 we're Bots copy that copy that from Twitter
too all right so so away from the Bots eight people did decent testing and test
that right okay so how did you guys I don't remember seeing this but you know I don't really follow the app so much on
uni even though we you know we obviously we run uh infrastructure for it how did you guys test these pieces out did you
guys do the same type of thing on uni and just try to be able to run that structure in a in an organized test net
piece yeah so the first uh level of testing we do is through the local net
so there's a Docker uh image for Juno so that we have integrated with junocate which is to uh
let's say like currently if you want to deploy any contracts most people do it
through the CNA they write every command to okay that's one command to deploy this contract one commanded instantiated
so let's say you have in any even I guess in general so I have this like uh
three or four context into deploy instantiate so yeah so what we do is that we abstract
it that way on the tooling side now it's just that okay we have contacts we write compile we write deploy to test it
deploy to localnet so first we like check on the local net it's working fine that whoever is developing it or
debugging it then we go to unit test net so we also ran the public test net for a
month and a half before it is on the main net and so one thing that happened was that most users who are testing it
out assume that it's an incentivized Chestnut sure so yeah all of them were
just uh it was working fine and like working well for me unsticking was not
working somehow but like it's really good ux so they were posting their address and their snapshot and I was
like we didn't announce that it's an incentive ice but like who's the one who's announcing it on our end and we
just saw some like random people uh making videos saying that okay if you want to get some rewards just do these
three steps and post it on the Discord and you'll get some Rewards but yeah oh you had that as well that
was that was a fun one yeah I'm posting their address and then
they're like tasked on and you're like there are no tasks thanks there are no tasks yeah I'm browsing the Discord and
and people are like where are my [ __ ] rewards man and I'm like what are they gonna do give
you like B Juno thinking about launching a chain thinking about launching a project never
do an incentivized testnet it was in the cosmos never ever
no there's some iron in here I I agree unfortunately now I agree but like it used to be that an incentivized testing
it made a lot of sense right like you got a handful about it is there was like 15 of us we would Tombstone ourselves
get points for that and then now it's like you understand you have 17
000 people the Aptos one they had to shut down their test net because they had some like something like 400 000
people burning through the faucet and stuff now it doesn't make sense anymore
because like you're not getting an effective like we were just laughing about the say test net because the say
the say test net they had like a when it launched I think we all had internal conversation about how like we know this
is gonna go a little bit off the rails because they had like 17 different tests and they wanted to have a form filled out for each person that's replying to
that and all I'm thinking about the back end is like this form is going to be filled out 85 000 times and nobody's
gonna look at it like because once you get into it it's totally unstructured data it's free form field you're [ __ ]
like there's no way you're you know like you're totally screwed it's not like it's a you know it's not like it's a
Scantron like from the 80s right like it's a really free form data type unstructured data type thing and I'm
looking at this like this is gonna be a mess and sure enough today like there's huge arguing in this in this validator channel around my rewards and this and
that and like hey like just be happy to be part of it like we're I'm we're not
in it for the incentivized testnet rewards you just want to be part of the chain for a long term like we're thinking 20 years right so I think I'm
just trying to hit those blocks son that's why I get those blocks on that's it I get those blocks that's it I'm just
trying to get that 99.99 [Music] impossible to get the hunt no there is
definitely like I feel like there definitely is like a little bit of an uh like there's definitely a cut-off point
in experience isn't that where you're you're an old man of Cosmos if you remember when it was hard to fill a
validator set yeah like I remember like last week there was like specifically a what's it
called um there was a line I think in the original version of the COS and wasm docs that
said something like we've got enough validators in our test Nets said nobody
ever yeah and then like by the time I think version one rolled around I'm pretty sure that line got taken out
because it was like that is no longer factually correct it's
no longer yeah I mean for sure well actually we're validating go ahead sorry if you have a test net that you
know you just want to run it's hard to find people if you have an incentivized [ __ ] test then you will have ten
thousand people a pre I think that they may a pre-genesis test now but is it
those I mean we only if it's incentivized if if it's not incentivized you still will have like 10. no I don't
think so I think like even like we're running testing notes for a bunch and like even that we can't get into sets
because people are spamming the faucet and [ __ ] and like like either we get you know involved from a foundation
perspective because somebody wants us to be involved which is which is really nice we want to be involved in those but
um but still even not incentivize you have a ton of there's a lot of there's a lot of validator interest I think the
words out that all you gotta do is spin up a hat snare box and you're done type of idea which is totally not true don't
get me wrong it's not true but anyway so what were you gonna say something's over here
you just you just spun up 75 VMS uh via terraform script and you're done right
that's that Is tragically my days here I can't wait to see y'all oh Jesus Christ
of I'm moving everything into separate AWS accounts now so I can actually I can at
least know where the pain is coming you can cry individually as every Bill shows up in
your inbox holy [ __ ] holy [ __ ]
I I only recently got around to being professional enough to split two accounts and that was already shocking
enough so I can't wait to see what happens when everything is split out because you get a message as well like
they'll send you this night push notification they're like hey hey here's your bill
in the push notification it tells you the number you're like oh it does that's funny oh [ __ ] you might need to
split them out they come separately so it's the same number but somehow it
feels worse because the first one arrives and invariably like the smallest one arrives first you're like ah yeah
all that restructuring I did was really good yeah yeah really optimizing those instances that's the that's the yeah
that's the years of cloud Consulting right there you know not not a [ __ ] sucker giving all your money to Jeff
Bezos and then like the next one rolls in and it's just like oh no there's all the other money no yeah we're [ __ ] yeah
that's the point yet I my my having different accounts for AWS is I use a different region for what I'm using like
uh this is what's doing this I'll choose a different region follow that way that's good enough that's good though I
honestly cannot [ __ ] figure out AWS at all like I just I got this random 10
cent build from them and I couldn't figure out what it was for I was I was clicking for about [ __ ] an hour and a half Amanda
I think lambda's base cost is 56 cents isn't it I just closed the account and didn't pay
them 10 cents so I think I think the freaking sure have a bill collector I think it's Frank it's a 10 cent bill for
actually opening the bills it's cheap
that's too funny I think it was for something dumb like just having an account
for a um like having a user or something for
uh like a space you know like an S3 space I think it had to use a foreign
there was some configuration somewhere that they charged me for yeah yeah well I don't know what I mean I don't use AWS
I was poking around on the free free tier on the [ __ ] tier and then
you're like the dwarves in Moria you poked too far and too deep
obscure reference for 500. not that because it's an obscure what Lord of the
Rings of all time
[Laughter] look I've actually got more questions for uh I'm gonna stop I've already
brought it back together please I'm going to shut up now you you inevitably get invariably get
there no matter what it's uh it's your track you you start somewhere you go in
story time for a little bit then we're back on movies I just it's invariable anyway so back to uh so how do you
control how do you control the distribution of um uh steak dude because I noticed I've
been looking at it as you've added new people and it seems that when you're adding new people you're assigning all
of the distribution of steak to go to those people for a bit and then
um and then I guess you have to like flick a switch at some point to start Distributing it back to the others so is
the plan to have sort of 10 for the time being and then just evenly distribute it through those validators
so uh it's kind of a trade-off where like if any user comes let's say it's
always going to be one tenth for 10 milliliters always so the contract is
doing 10 transactions every time to stick to all these so what we did we came to uh like a middle ground where
like we'll have a sort of equal distribution but most of the time it's just going to stick to one or later all
of the like so every 24 hours the user doesn't directly stick to the validator
it first comes to a contract and the crown shops takes it uh to the validators so the user just have to pay
the transaction fees for sending it or sending the Juno over and then it just works like if the total amount for that
24 hours is more than uh T by like the TBR by end so for instance n is 10 if
it's more than one tenth of the current total value State then it will be
distributed in all of these 10 but if it's less than that then just take with at least one so that it will go
and there's a mistake with the one with the lowest amount or is it like a round robin type thing
so it's distinct with the lowest one okay so it's just always if it's less
than 10 of the total amount stake it'll always just stake with the lowest one yeah
okay cool did you pick those first ten based off like hairstyles or those types of things or how did King nodes get into
that into that mix we want to understand and what we could do better that was a good fit
it was just like two things we considered one is the fees amount like we wanted it to be between five to maybe
seven or eight percent that's below five it doesn't make sense because the infrastructure won't be that good enough
because like you are not getting any commissions so there's that risk of them being down uh if it's more than seven or
eight percent then the reward amount won't be good enough for the end user and the second thing we looked at okay
which one of these we see are also actively part of the community or doing
something or like uh people know that who these predators are so there's more press in that
and and right now you're limiting it to 10 are you are you thinking about maybe 13.
what about how about 13 13 is a good lucky number I mean 12 12 because 13's 13's unlucky
and we're 10 you're at 10 I mean it is it is basically our crew plus Don
[Laughter] 's not in the crew God's in the crew
well you know the the crew yes yeah yeah people are like what and why do you why
do you limit to a certain percentage of the validator set like is there anything that um
maybe I don't understand the mechanics of it enough for from a contract perspective uh why even limit it at all
um I assume you have to worry about validators dropping out of the set that might be an issue right um in terms of that piece of it but
other than that um what's the what's the reason for 10 versus a hundred
so uh it's it's part of that okay all of the latest in the network are not going
to perform well all of the time so you as a user don't want to be exposed to any kind of
risk that you didn't do or like if a variator gets paid you are not the one
who was doing the actions to get that validated but your stake was also cut off because you stick with that for
later and so our thesis was that we'll choose that set that can perform the
best in the long run so the user doesn't have to choose the validator which the best or most of the let's say the retail
users who are coming from centralized exchanges they just see the list of the names of editor they don't know anything
else so there's also this coefficient which says that how was the least number
of Educators that needs to have more than 50 share so this needs to be as much Cloud as possible so we also kind
of want to increase that with our set so we choose some from the bottom sum from
the middle some from the top and we also make you want to make sure that if you choose some from the bottom those are not the ones who are going to go
downward because they don't have much of the stake and much of the experience in one rating and
so the rough thesis is that we just want to make sure that nothing goes wrong and
the set that's been chosen is the one that's becoming the best out of the all of the net validators in the network
so basically what is your failover if someone either leaves the set permanently or like tombstones is there
any sort of handling for that yes so uh there's a redarigation that
you can do every 28 days so the mechanism is also in there like whenever uh animator goes out on set we
immediately restrict that to a new editor and there's also one more uh approach we are going to be soon
implementing is that every 28 days we'll just update most of the set completely so let's say uh in our case if we have
10 milliliters but uh according to our parameters 20 or 31 letters fit that perfectly so we can kind of like switch
between each of the 10 from these 30 every 28 days so it's kind of also giving all of
the divided the amount and also like circulating through them
sounds like honestly a pretty pretty cool community service and no you're muted again
where'd you say from a technical perspective what's the maximum you could actually have I mean I know there's like
some concerns about um yeah how that fits it together and with decentralization and stuff but by
only including validators that are sort of known to be good aren't you really basically going on validator marketing
because it's not like you're auditing their setups right um so to some extent what this actually
is is like which validator sort of and look we do a podcast obviously and it's not because I mean it's partly because
we would be [ __ ] talking on a private cool at this time on a Wednesday anyway but it's you know it's partly marketing
obviously you know that's part of what we do here it's not fully altruistic actually not very well but well yeah
we're really the irony is that we do this actually in spite of the fact we're quite interesting marketing yeah but
whatever we yeah okay but the point is like at least we we conceptually even if we can't execute on it we conceptually
understand the importance of being out there in the space and making noise if
you like I mean if that's that's pretty much a definition of what I do anyway but the danger there is like like you
know in terms of pure I it right it's the difference between like I guess how much I probably talk on
this podcast compared to usurper right who is actually the better node operator that is I think the the Crux of the
point that I'm trying to get at which is that isn't there a danger here of like if you pick validators primarily that
are known in the community or who are very visible and active they're often actually you know not this what they've
demonstrated is marketing now they haven't necessarily there's it's quite hard to actually
and this is the problem with a lot of I grant you know this is the same problem with all those validator ranking
conversations that go nowhere because they're [ __ ] pointless like I do get that but you know it's very very hard to
actually assess the technology I'm going to stop you because when you look at the validators
that they've actually got here they're not marketers these ones are it's not the case like oh
I disagree on that what are you talking about numbers I will ask you what does Don
Kryptonian primarily do I obviously love it again let me rephrase for the most
part for the most part these these aren't
a lot of Highlander spaces
what yeah are you saying they're all right yeah they're not out there like [ __ ]
they're not I'm like oh yeah that list is long and
distinguished okay yeah [ __ ] off poker 2 doesn't do [ __ ] I don't
do [ __ ] all right no no no no it's passionate you know you you you literally one of one somebody from King
nodes literally is in the Juno chat constantly helping people that is if that's that's like one of the most
effective marketing strats in the whole of the cosmos so well it doesn't work I'll tell you that
yeah and to be clear like bimby Market doesn't mean they're bad it's just that
I think the statement of them being nubby marketers is these are my directive to Joseph is help
people do not tell people to stake with us sure so just be visible and no look look
look in this in this limited instance like I know that I am the Naomi Klein
advocate here like like I obviously I have a conceptual and philosophical problem with marketing that has been
well established but there's a difference between doing very little and doing absolutely nothing but in this
particular instance in this particular instance I'm not using marketing as some kind of
trojan horse for disapproval I'm not using it to say I think this is bad or
morally and proper I'm just stating a factual thing all I said was these are
all [ __ ] validators like
obviously
obviously Kevin's great but they've only been in the Juno set for the last couple of months right and so they don't have the private history that like a lot of
other people like why would they be here why would they be on the list right I don't think they shouldn't be on the list to be clear I'm just saying that
like clearly that's because of marketing then because they now are known even though they've
been on the less less like well let's just ask you to hit what what was the
selection um of Oni
of it I tuned out for 10 seconds to double
check the list and then I tune back in it's just like why is only not of this what did you guys do
I literally flicked up flipped over did you even look at the [ __ ] seconds and you guys have organized like a Witch
Hunt like obnoxious
don't cancel me don't cancel me it's responsible what are you doing man you
can't no the point was I was making was that like he's been like on the universe for less time so like it's it's a point
towards it's a marketing thing I don't I'm not saying you shouldn't be on the stick easy list in any way to reform just saying that like it's a point in
the favor of this is a like a marketing example not as much okay what about Pokemon does
virtually nothing well I mean there's one person in the
cosmos who deserves a lot more pretty much all of us it's it's okay oh [ __ ] I
I agree with that full stop oh [ __ ] you could probably just actually do a liquid staking that was just poker chew and
that would pan out I mean fine he is yeah no one who can play yeah I'd be
like yeah I'll stake I'll stick with that on stake unstake from needlecast whoever the [ __ ] they are
same same place that we are like his marketing like what I'm not gonna talk about his marketing but he has saved the
bacon of every [ __ ] validator on this list and of every other chain he is the
unsung hero of uh of validators that doesn't that doesn't turn into delegations
he doesn't really he doesn't have like the um
the unfuck my node um Tombstone recovery tool yet
[Laughter] and when he does he'd still get no [ __ ] delegation yeah because that is
his lot in life he does honestly the good part about about his contributions is that it has been
recognized I think by most chain operators and those types of things so like he's in decent stand against every
chain which is really good if he was in the 149th out of you know these types of Chains would be it'd be sad
um but that's not the case and it is that's good it's been recognized with grants as well by the way yeah and it
should be it should be like it's it's it's it has saved the bacon of like I said before of the intellect Cosmos in
some in one chain or another at some point in the other I think almost every validator has taken advantage of the
solutions that have been that he's delivered right so oh yeah well every Every Chain hold it's like so Pokey
you get that recently pruned snap though right there right right it's totally
true that's it is it's a it is 100 how come all these conversations either come back
to polkachu or Schultz is [ __ ] on Oni right because focus is [ __ ] great my poker is 100
the dude I know it's good poker abides and I I have another question so
look at it so what is the um like in your opinion uh what's the better solution
for liquid staking is it contract or is it chain and and what do you think like the key differences are
yeah that's a good question so contracts I would say like it both of them I see have pros and
cons but overall a better solution I would say is the chain one uh given that you can like manage the
develop inside of things of that because we're saying you have more flexibility you can optimize on the Chain level
that's saying that okay it's just going to be for liquid seeking I can optimize it and also if in future for instance if
you know let's say scales to the scale that ethereum has then ethereum sometimes let's say openc has some uh
nft drop and the whole network has to pay a lot of fees because just this nft
drop but if it's just a chain then you won't have these kind of issues happening and you also have to rely on
the underlying network if it's the contract that they are also going to maintain it well but on the flip side if the chain itself
is being maintained by a really good developers then you just have to worry
about the contact side of things you know just the whole underlying you don't have to understand how go works and how the
course of SDK works so it's lesser work on the contract side much faster cycle but it's less things in control
so if you can maintain the development side of things definitely the chain side but if you have low on resources and the
contact side but for the from the end user perspective both are going to work the same functionality wise like uh in
our case for instance we just have providing liquid string for secret and Juno because these two have uh Cosmos of
conflict support but if in future let's say we want to support requesting for atom which doesn't have customers we can
utilize and chain accounts and if Juno is one of the controller chains then
what we can do is that anyone can bring their atom to Juno and they can stake that atom with stake easy and the uh
will basically use the internet accounts to send that atom over back to course or sub and stake it and issue the SEO
Temple to the user so functionality wise it will be exactly the same
mute it again is that is there any um like speed
advantage of one or the other I guess one one is natively on the Chain right well you know cosm wasn't on the chain
and then the others are probably I'm assuming communicating over IBC I don't know too much about the The Chain
Solutions um does anybody else I mean uh speed I don't think if uh
unless it's a decks speed is not that much of an issue because for people speaking you just take and you just take
your asset somewhere else and it just depends on what the utility is for example if you want to provide security
and responses for ascision and you want to trade as usual the osmosis chain needs to be fast not the stake easy kind
of yeah totally um
and also on the data selection side so yeah it's currently uh very
incomplete solution because like we are just selecting based on like who's out there but in the long run like I saw in
Terra some guys did try last year too so you can first use on chain data and
second you can use you can find out and communicate with evaluators okay are you using any monitoring or are using any
kind of alerting system or do you have any backup notes things like that and maybe you can verify those things and
put that out there to the end user and say that okay uh here's the steak easy
now community and here's the data that we have found and verified so that it will help you make better decision and
then the dowel can vote whether this or it should go in or not and you can also use on-scene data like uh in the last
six months how many blocks did it Skip and how many times did the valid reward
so but I don't look forward to when you switch it to a dow because then I think it will just become a popularity contest
you'll get away [Laughter] yeah that's that's why I mentioned that
it's going to be assisted by the data saying that let's say uh if someone puts
out the word saying that okay this is a validator which which is not part of active set now we want to watch whether
we should include it or not so there should be like checks in place in the doorway saying that okay uh if the
validator does not qualify for the these using this data then even if the
community votes yes it won't go in the active set right okay so it's like
controlled by by background data yeah yep so like a check checks and balances on
you know people just trying to have a popular vote
to to put someone in yeah dude I really appreciate you coming on like it I think it's it's got a lot
of um potential obviously with what's going on what's going on within Juno and secret and I know you guys are looking
at both Cosmos and osmosis coming up as well right with kind of a different structure like you mentioned but but
similar to trying to offer the same type of product right so thanks for thanks for being here it
really seems like um you had put like a lot of thought into it as well and not just like yo load some [ __ ] together and
put it out there like this um yeah yeah I like this podcast
why are we inadvertently [ __ ] on ourselves [Laughter]
what is it what is The Fray doing man it's just like got the weirdest uh
defy that's the look stable coins and it's exactly the same look just staring
at the Horizon we were established that I bailed on that at an early age for good reason because nobody starts
talking about Bloody
thanks a lot for having me and yeah thanks it yeah man we really do
appreciate you coming on and and clearing those things up with us and just talking through um the protocol and
I think we're probably at the time where we're going to move in to um our next part of the show so we're
not gonna like dump you on your ass thank you thank you for coming oh you're
like the first person who's been thanks for coming on uh yeah thank you so much I learned a lot
I really appreciate it yep same uh catch you later man thanks
[Music]
someone better at the transition that was relatively Pro except that was whatever happened there with you double clicking the transition button yeah it
was okay well I clicked it it didn't work so I clicked it again and then I clicked it again and then I clicked it again you can click it like so that's
the demonstration of what happens when you know your internet is bad and when you repeatedly
you know send what's presumably an Ajax call over to the streaming software whatever
anyway I'm on the Wi-Fi all right how many times does he want this video
they're just like YOLO whatever he can have it wants it five times five times
that's right my setup is basically The Fray on a train right now I'm like Tethered to my phone
what happened here this is a really nice place I think it's like I'm in the city's place look at that yeah
uh this is my weekend let you use their Wi-Fi
I don't know the password so um I've actually I've come to Brisbane for
a few days to go to Oktoberfest on the weekend so um yeah Oktoberfest man the Brisbane
version so there's gonna be fine Holt on Saturday night your time
call that out everybody yeah yeah yeah
man so uh this house is um a secret
[Laughter] that's cool now it's uh it's just it's
my partner's um parents place so oh nice I don't know where they are but nice we just stopped in here we've got a place
in Brisbane but it's rented at the moment so we can't stay there that's cool
yeah that's good would like to have like a better one like on the river or something but we're
not billionaires so she's um that beautiful view and deck not good
enough for you uh no I mean like the other place oh okay but oh man the uh the uh the uh
real estate in Brisbane is going [ __ ] mental in the last couple of years has it that people out of Sydney and other
types of things no it's just that like covet [ __ ] in the um interest rate's
been really low and I don't know everyone just being irrational and then so you know you used to be able to buy a
house for 600 Grand and the suburbs and now it's like over a million for like
you know no more value so but it's all I think the property Market's crashing a
little bit at the moment because yeah everyone's shoving those interest rates up yeah exactly it's all going to kind of rug itself naturally over time I
think in the in the next few months it's gonna be a pretty serious contraction in the in the property
Market probably but I want to buy a house so that's what I I'm waiting for that I'm like I needed
to crash a lot please yeah I uh go up yeah I mean I've look I'm a man in
a in an attic it's now winter this is the warmest room in the house I'm living the dream
um your attic is attached to like a rest of a house though yeah I'm just saying like by the time
you you kind of it like by the time you you're in the Attic working you could be anywhere in the world it's
it's kind of fine the main thing the main thing you need in life is like a big Starship enterprisey wrap
around desk that's all I'm saying like you need to have achievable goals like
what am I going to do with the review I work all the time like but you know I
don't put past my monitor anyway well yeah I got a big monitor here it's right in front of my face I've got like some
cool [ __ ] over here which is obviously off camera there's some cool [ __ ] here and there's like a big
desk and you know is there a window there sharp lighting
there's a window just up where my hand is there like you can see the sky so you
know if it's raining or sunny right but it's always raining right well yeah it's always raining in Manchester United doesn't matter
um oh [ __ ] is always warm and it's always raining it's raining yeah well I
live in the northwest of England as well established so it's it's always raining all the time perfect
what else is going on in the cosmos this week oh man it's been like I think it's been
[ __ ] quiet like besides no no hear me out here okay besides
besides the one million chain upgrades this week I think it's been relatively quiet unlike you know Twitter and um
chats and [ __ ] it doesn't seem to have been very like you put it this way usually when I wake
up in the morning it takes me an hour and a half to like catch up with all the [ __ ] that went on overnight and now I
can at the moment I can catch up in probably 15-20 minutes so I I think I
would generally agree with that I think that the big thing right now is there's been a lot of discussion around Adam 2.0
right now um yeah I just got added to a telegram group for the new Adam governance chat
like it's Jacob's been talking about it a lot I think that I think it's been so focused on that that everything feels
quieter at least that's that's my read on it I I think there's a lot of people at cosmosm and they're all just there like
you know talking to each other IRL so what does that mean yeah in real life I
know what ARL means no of course they're in real life like are they still there
yeah it's like you know there's there's hack wasm going on as well and afterwards was that two weeks ago I
think that ended a couple of days ago I did it oh was it Still Still quiet
um yeah well I didn't hear anything about Adam 2.0 I'm not an atom validator so maybe that's the difference I mean yeah
they had a bad Adam the ABC the USBC usdc which is how many acronyms usdc
announcement is pretty cool um I know it's not till q1 next year or it seems like circles in that a bit
which is did we not call that just a couple of weeks ago yeah yeah absolutely we did although I think do we call it an
ad we didn't call them we didn't call it in terms of interchange Securities no what what happened was we were talking
about bridges and I said their [ __ ] and that they should just have usdc native
Native and then and they were watching this and they were like write that down that's brilliant that's a good idea yeah
that's right yeah yeah I mean I don't think that would have been the way that we would have implemented it but I'm
glad it's coming they could have they could have hit me up you know would have helped me up yep
yeah they didn't they weren't really where I'm thinking about no enough everyone should be thinking about no more
I mean I I pick a lot of things that are up and coming and not yet announced
right I feel like people are just stealing my ideas now could be I mean wouldn't you agree
do I do we have anything on the list to talk about this week I mean we've kind of exhausted around about well I guess
some things have come out of um quism which quite interesting there's
the Mass security demo thing which is kind of interesting can you so I didn't go to hack wasm and I didn't watch most
of the the um Cosmo verse uh like streams because it was look you know I was a bit
disappointed that I couldn't sit there and watch it with everyone else and then drink beer so is you know too
emotionally damaging for me to sit there and watch all of them so can you give us like the tldr on um the mesh security
it's it's like a wasm solution right to some sort of securing of things hit me with it I
didn't read about it I feel dumb now well I need to know we're supposed to have sunny on in a
couple of weeks right so maybe we can always talk about it then yeah I asked him to come on and give us like the tldr
and just that's literally that question so let's just I guess pick it up
I do want to understand it a little bit better because it seems like it's it's a solution that multiple chains can use right including Juno as a mesh security
Hub the way I understand it but again I don't understand it well enough to understand I think yes we'll just I
think this will just yeah they will just Sovereign areas that you can pull the pull your security from but right uh I
think the notion there is more that like you can iterate that solution very very quickly using cosmolism and IBC whereas
um it's maybe like harder to do that using
uh ICS or something like that that is my feet my my very dumb understanding of it
is it's essentially what some of the things that were proposed is the ideas in Emotion for uh for ICS version two
yeah um which is like you know pulling arbitrary subsets or validator sets
individually or together as as you know security layers which is pretty
interesting um but I don't know the complete technical details of it because frankly
I've been working in 24 hours a day for last seven days or 10 days or whatever
and it just like watching Cosmos talks was not what I want to do in any of the
free time that I had anything else watch Lord of the Rings
that was good the rings of power oh the Rings appear is good hang on but on on um the mesh right so they're
they're working on that at um you know hack wasm or whenever hack was and was on right and I gather
that it is going to be pretty abusive on relays because
Max Juno has been asking me for a lot of [ __ ] new genox to cover
um relay fees so oh yeah so interchange accounts interchange security
is [ __ ] it is insanity so one of the reasons why
interchange account students came out earlier is because like there wasn't a system involved for
like how to actually like do those transfers so like right now entertaining accounts for every channel and a channel
is like between Juno and osmosis every single account needs a new channel and there's no way to facilitate that so
what that means is there's going to be orders of magnitude for Transit transactions
um I talked with ICF about this quite a while back I'm like this it's a completely untenable solution until
there's some way to to pay every layers because even right now that's that's our number one expense it's relaying well I
like a pretty wide margin really yeah so you need to be able to cover those fees yeah yeah so if it goes up 100x which it
would if not more like there's there's just no way and yeah yeah so that's that's what that is
definitely a problem that I picked up with the amount of like Juno they were asking for for Relay fees I'm like this
seems like a lot of fees yeah we've sent quite a few from the forces
well and it was like okay yeah so for context uh just adding the
connection between Adam and stride costs us more than a quarter of an atom
per day so that's only like you know right now three dollars or four dollars
um at the start it was a little over one atom per day but that's only one connection um going to osmosis it just kills
everything like uh for a while we were spending something like 3 000 secret a
month which is the secret osmosis connection that's crazy so this is the dirty thing about
um the cosmos that no one really seems to be is anyone working on fixing this because yeah it seems mental like
absolutely there's there's um there's some middleware being developed such that uh when you use a
relayer then you add a fee on top because right now you know you pay the fee and people assume that that fee then
goes to the relay right the realize you get any fee that goes to it that goes to the
validator set or whatever validator that proposes the block they don't get the reality is absolutely nothing right um like they the face should just be
incorporated in um IBC transfers it's just it should be in the module it should yeah it's almost like a bridge
structure right like where that bridge is that is that how they do it in the bridge piece where like the that relayer
or whoever's in the bridge kind of portion takes that fee structure so I would assume that even if it was cosmomosm they would be able to
restructure that contract to change the fee structure Associated that that's yeah that can't grow like that right it
doesn't make any sense yep yep no you're absolutely correct and originally um it was actually a design decision to
not pay relayers because that was a huge marketing point for for IPC right look
how cheap it is you can send from it's great yeah you can send between Adam and osmosis for nothing how much does it
cost to go between Bitcoin and ethereum fifty dollars or whatever and so it's a decision to not pay relayers but that
then means that we relayers are paying huge amounts yeah
so Rama says that um in IBC V4 pays related
[Laughter] I'm guessing that's relays natively that's uh upside down Australia it's
early for him man he's lucky he can actually type yeah it's like nine o'clock 9am yep
probably exploring at coffee right now yes we asked something to come out so we'll we just have to schedule it to
have him come out and talk a little bit more about at least a mesh security piece because I I think that you know I the current structure of each
does every number one does everything need to be a chain question that is probably no but when there are changes
do they absolutely need a native um validator set that probably is answered no
um but I see us I'm not really a big fan of the weight structured at least for B1
I'm also biased that way but but even even the way it's even structured for atom validators I don't think that set
is um uh necessarily balance correctly Etc
guys do you realize that we've been doing this for like half a year now 31 episodes I know 31
episodes it's like seven months wow and um do you know when when it hit me like you know we've done a lot of episodes is
the other day when you said yeah we'll have to get Sunny back on I was like yeah have we had Sun here yeah I've been on
every episode but I don't remember it was that long yeah it was only my my week off I had like a week off yeah June
no you're the only you're the only one who's been on every single week that's that's something you're the pocket shoe
of game of nodes absolutely considering how stretched my [ __ ] schedule is I know where do you
get time to cut that hair like that uh you know go people have people hold on if we're talking
about I need to talk to talk because it was one of the worst haircut experiences I've ever had in my
life there was a new guy that cut my hair I'm totally fine with that I enjoy it like if something goes sideways I can
just shave my hand okay this guy like he was really serious about this haircut and he would like
when he would cut each hair he would like pin his hand down and like hold the comb really strictly and so I'm like
getting smashed into the side of the chair for every kind and he had like the focused tongue out like
and for every single one and so by the end after literally an hour and a half haircut and you know this is basically
just a shave my neck was tight I had to get a massage because like I was pregnant
oh Lord I don't [ __ ] around with it down there
yeah man that's on the island all right [ __ ] how is the island now after the
the Huracan uh today is day one with power so I have been congrats for uh 18
days without power and water still don't have water but I have power um you've been fighting with your
neighbors over the uh over the solar Eau uh I would talk about that but they're
like eight feet from me [Laughter] so either yes but I'm not gonna you're
coming from a secret location just to [ __ ] talk your neighbors well so here okay so here's the thing
about Puerto Rico that one of the things one of the few things that I really don't like is that the houses aren't insulated at all so like if I talk the
people that are like 50 yards over that I can see 50 yards away they can hear me and I can hear them it's all well
everything's all it's either a concrete or like whatever so there's there's very little absorbing materials right this is
the same thing with Mexico you could be in a house and you could talk on one side of the house and like the other side of the house you could hear everything because it's all tile and
concrete and everything else right it all bounces is this because of like a lack of availability of those types of
materials or well I mean for hurricanes if you built like a normal uh
uh studded house it'll just get knocked right over right like oh right okay so that they are actually concrete yeah so
they're actually concrete yeah and like the windows they are pretty small panes
so that each one can break because they probably will break and it doesn't cost a lot to replace them they can just slide it out and slide a new one in it's
no big deal what that means it's like there's not there's not double pane windows right because you just have the one the one Steve and with that you also
have the windows open most of the time to get that airflow going because most places don't have air conditioning so you just have fans basically blowing
through the house right so earlier you're talking about hearing AC that was just my fan that was just on high
blowing Eric's house because otherwise it just becomes a sign because it's you know 80 90 degrees and 80 90 humidity
so combine those things and you can hear just everything all the time uh one thing that's cool is Puerto Rico has
these frogs called the koki and they are crazy loud I love the sound of frogs I
enjoy it but Cassie my fiance every night she's like
yeah exactly right yeah and she'll see what is the schedule for
you moving back to the States and what address what address specifically are you moving back to in
which in which place uh which state ZIP code
I think the viewers would be interested to know yeah well that's not your fingernails yeah
so we are moving back uh we're moving we'll be back on the 27th but really the big thing was the dogs in Puerto Rico
there's just like a different uh a different opinion of dogs there and
like how to raise them and so when we would bring our dogs basically anywhere people didn't like it because there's
wild dogs everywhere and so they kind of assumed that like your dogs are also going to be like kind
of feral yeah and so we'd go on a beach and people could be angry at us for having them like we'd go for a walk and
people would like yell at us for it and so having two big dogs and
it just it doesn't measure their lifestyle everything else I can deal with fine but not being able to like let
our dogs outside and have want to walk with them go enjoy beaches with them that's where it gets to be too much
um and I don't even blame the people at all because I've seen the dogs you go to a beach and there are you know
Rincon is where I live is a pretty like it's it's like Prime tourist territory
in Puerto Rico this is where all the Surfers go this is where like the world serving championship in like the 90s was
a lot of service here a lot of tourists even on these beaches you're probably going to see 10 or more dogs on a
quarter of a mile stretch of beach wild dogs that is so it makes sense
but it sucks so three weeks is when we'll be back in Oregon that's uh so three weeks from now yeah
okay so that sounds very much like uh like a barley Vibe with just like wild
ass dogs everywhere and they just just wandering the [ __ ] Street
so in Puerto Rico it's it's horses you see horses everywhere everywhere
yeah he's chilling just chilling just having a great time with it well not all of them are they wild horses
not wild horses no but they are just roaming about there is actually
sorry I was just like yeah I definitely like in Bali I don't know who the [ __ ] owns the cows but they're everywhere they
just walk around just chill walk on the beach eat some grass yeah everyone's
like move on move on yep but like uh yeah it's [ __ ] weird
I mean it's just different I shouldn't say it's weird it's just different and what were you going to say uh deaf name
The Fray uh well random in the random fact corner there are there's almost [ __ ] all like
wild larger animals in England we do have wild horses
uh down in the south West
have you ever written it no [ __ ] no but but uh one of the reasons
they're um they're still wild is because they're relatively small I think and so
nobody really no point eating them not really worth a thing so nobody domesticated them okay so they're
actually like they're like wild from long ago it's not that someone just decided oh yes yes
but really specifically um there aren't all that many like ancient or semi-anction breeds of wild
horses left in Europe and the UK is like Infamous for having all of our nature destroyed completely destroyed by you
know intensive farming and all sorts of things and the the upper class having Grouse Moors and all this other [ __ ]
but one of the weird things that we do actually have is um Wild Horses because they're just like
they're in a poorer part of the country kind of in a random place by the sea and
they're just sort of there and everybody's like oh yeah just [ __ ] ponies aren't they just not don't worry about those so so two things these
horses still exist because they've been left alone because they're [ __ ] but that by the way is not an academic I'm
not I'm not like an ecologist that is my assumption is that they they're not tasty or something like somebody would
eat in them yeah right tastes like gravel yeah so somebody is free to clear me up on
why those have not been eaten I just assume they don't taste very good for a
group of people who are decidedly not English what the [ __ ] is a grassmore
oh yeah I guess you guys probably don't have that so the majority of the country or of this
large part of the country is owned by the upper classes right that's like a thing
um and back in the day they kept deer Parks right to go hunt deer and actually to be fairly Stallone a lot of deer
parks are still a thing big big big amount of land use for that um dear also non-native eat oak trees
loads of stuff like that very very bad for the environment well in large numbers very bad for oh I didn't know that they weren't
native uh I'm pretty certain well there's several types of deer so I think we do have native deer but there are
also non-native deer but also deer need an apex presence to control them but that's so we're talking about like white
tape whitetail deer or something then uh which okay whoever is an expert in the
chat on on the ecosystem of the British Isles you tell me which one is the native one which one is the non-native I
feel like I want to say roe deer is the native one probably wrong about that and
we'll find out when somebody corrects me so um
see somebody else somebody else aware of the pony situation I'm like how I'm I
was almost certain there would be none of our eight viewers that would know about what the [ __ ] you were talking about [ __ ] everyone knows about
ponies anyway so Grouse Grouse was really specifically you get a patch of Highland right and instead of doing it
well instead of leaving it as a more like which is like a
[ __ ] what is a more more is like a I love that I almost regret asking now like I love that there's like British
definitions is made up of other terms that you also have to describe it's like an infinite tree of oh oh I very much
more is a bunch of these Hedges oh [ __ ] what's a hedge all right what hedge is this because no it's different there
right you know what Heather is or Heath no no like Ledger Heather or he like he
planned or Heather yeah he's Heather
um no so it's like high Upland areas with like low scrubs not scrub it's like
scrub vegetation you get a lot of this in New Zealand
place like that anyway the point is that trees grow out of that noise you end up with tree cover right the rest of Europe you would end up with tree cover but you
essentially you put sheep on it or you leave deer on it and it gets eaten down and it stays as heathland and that is
all the better for shooting Grouse with and also specifically the land is kept
um with low vegetation so that you can shoot these birds called Grouse right yes which incidentally are non-native
and they're released into the countryside in huge numbers such that I think I think at the point where they
get released for the grouse hunting season the biomass weight of grouse in
the UK is like the highest of any bird like all birds together it's just it's just Grouse just for rich people to
shoot those in from like where do they implementing the best bit right is they're not very
good shots so a lot of them get away and they just basically go and reek General kind of how havoc and then die because
they're just like a lucid winter in the middle of nowhere um and and the best bit the best the
icing on the cake of all this right is that we have loads of flooding problems in these river valleys and those sorts of areas and nobody could work out why
right until essentially modern ecological science and they were like oh yeah we've traced the water table and
basically what's happening is the water's raining on that Hill five miles away and that Hill should have trees on
it like naturally would do it it would have large potentially large animals on it like in a state of nature okay there
would be [ __ ] beavers probably in that River anyway
your house is now flooded wait wait you paused there for a second that was the best part of the story it seemed like a
critical seconds [Laughter] go back go back
go back to the beaver because I was I was pulled in go back to there so for what whatever reason basically you
remove all those animals and you instead just say oh this land is only for Grouse shooting it basically because the way
the water table works all the water just basically rolls off the grass more and floods the down below so the log that's
like why does why do we always get flooded the answer is the rich people are shooting grass on top of that Hill
five miles away that turned out to be the reason and uh but yeah they're rich they still get to do it and there are a
bunch of towns like hebden bridge in uh West Yorkshire and you just get flooded
all the [ __ ] time and the residents are just like why is our Tower yeah that was like was that 20 minutes
correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's also why the the new king of England didn't have an inheritance tax
right is that what it was probably it's all about passing down
wealth and land with that a lot isn't it like fun facts all of the uh all of the queen
coins are going up in value is
broken 500 bucks for some [ __ ] two dollars and [ __ ] does Australia no
longer have the queen on its money I think Canada does well it changes over now to the King right so all the queen
gods are like oh they gotta read they gotta read money that's a lot of advice I mean nobody
likes isn't it they should just skip Charles just print it with William on there just skip it skip a generation right they should let the Keynotes logo
on there foreign
yeah I am coming to the US of a really where too yeah two shorts is a
dress which is just I'm generally going to the US of a
gonna go to East Denver and then like flail for a month so I'm I'm kind of are you gonna go see
gadgets to sleep on so you're gonna go say hi to black vein is that what that is yeah well I'll go see like
block pain and artifact and some other followers and then are you really going to any other are you going to East
Denver yeah all right I'll go to eat that oh perfect I'm gonna eat that let's go to me back
he'll be back somewhere in the United States not doxing him so maybe we might
have uh yeah which means Only The Fray
not committing to eat Denver I'm not going to eat them but damn
I I don't not even like you know I thought I thought we were friends I have
maybe well I don't I don't really do um long distance Long Haul anymore like
for environmental reasons if I can avoid it like maybe I can jump on the train and just whip over for like the
afternoon for a bit well I hear this I hear this gonna be big there's a couple of big com um
Cosmos things next year in Europe so I'll go to them and see people how far
is it between the states and like it's just over the pond right maybe we could uh you can get them like that
yeah it sounds like training I think it's a bit um but that's the thing once you get trained Under the Sea you get complacent about
flying you're just like well I can just get the train under the sea to maybe we can meet in like uh Europe somewhere
Germany we'll pick it hetzner or something did I send you the video about going to
the house today it looks quite cool actually but I definitely just let you go in they don't do
that'd be great I can't plug this cable I want to see my validator
we can pick it for POS equality perfect I love it yeah yeah it's so important
that some names know which is you know likely that none of King nodes
either so in Cosmos versus they haven't announced anything related to Cosmo versus next year right that might
probably a couple months away from that being talked about but no I guess well I guess this year there was so there was
Cosmo verse was in Lisbon and then that was um median
I'm calling it now the next one is going to be in Asia for sure
I I would bet money on it being in South Korea like 100 yeah um
so we'll see we'll see about that like I don't know and Korea is really [ __ ] close for me so
what's that only 12 hours on the plate yeah about
thank you