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later in life when i had a girlfriend but the uh people don't want to listen to that
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[Music]
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hello and welcome to game of nodes a weekly podcast from independent validated teams on the cosmos and
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especially on its drama and doubly so i think in the last couple of weeks uh with us this week we've got
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friend of the show ghost from whisper node who is a fan of the what is what is it what's the phrase you
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use null
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big big big all-star sledger on twitter sledging for justice and we've got
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multi-audits with us as well um so uh no do you want to
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first of all we we have some we have some follow-up from last week which is that you and serp have gone and watched
1:05
mastering commander so what the [ __ ] you bring this up first thing
1:11
we've got it's on the spreadsheet we've got follow-ups you know it's important yeah i want i want a full breakdown before we
1:17
continue with serious business it's it's important to be consistent did you suffer did you watch it uh i watched
1:24
it immediately after the last show i watched all 16 hours of it yeah that's what it seemed like it
1:30
actually took me an entire day to watch uh on and off it was that [ __ ] painful well
1:36
you can watch it now i fell asleep like four times so i think actually the running time was 16 hours i just kept
1:41
falling asleep like like in the middle when what's his face was getting the bullet pulled out but i did watch it yes
1:47
we i think we should we should follow up on that look i think overall it was a reasonable
1:52
movie i don't know if it's like movie of the year like the fray claims but um
1:57
you know look russell crowe's a great actor i don't think you could put him in any movie and it'd be [ __ ] so
2:04
the fact is that they were out at sea for a very long time not much happened
2:09
they chased the friggin boat around for three hours it seemed like and some people died there was some
2:16
emotional scenes that was it was [ __ ]
2:23
it just reminds me of that south park episode that's all i could think every time i hear russell crowe yeah yeah masturbator
2:29
and commander oh yeah look it was sad when that little kid dude died
2:36
that was probably the only time that i did up there look the frey probably knows the little kid's
2:41
name and like the shanty they sang when uh he did you know they had the funeral
2:47
pushed them off the edge or whatever i i like that they just dump people in the water when they die that was that movie right yeah just like dip them off
2:53
the edge was that that movie or was that another yeah yeah they still well what else they can do with the
2:59
bodies yeah yeah i don't know take him home
3:05
go to an island and marry them i don't know what disease on the ship wouldn't they just commit them to the deep see you
3:11
later shark bait yeah you go i mean nobody can nobody can be surprised at these reviews right so
3:17
it's a movie about english naval warfare and you're asking both an australian and a yankee
3:24
right so obviously we're coming from a point of a little bit of negativity null calls out the only australian in
3:30
movie actor no [ __ ] wow i didn't know yeah being the that i didn't see that one coming about russell crowe he like he basically held
3:37
the whole movie together of course he did yeah yeah exactly uh paul bettany is a great he's a great actor right i think which one was he
3:44
that is the doctor oh yeah no he's also a good actor i think we're talking about him
3:50
from margin call right so he's just a great actor i think he's really cool um i was trying to find some i was
3:55
hoping that they would run into each other and both ships would go down that was actually kind of the ending i was looking for but i figured that would not bring him
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he could have pulled the english and the friendships his head down but didn't happen definitely he had a bone
4:08
to pick with that other fella didn't he um he did so uh other notable characters in there
4:14
was like frodo or something which was the there was one of those big faded lads in
4:19
there wasn't there yeah oh yes there was a hobby
4:26
um who else did i recognize i don't know what i should know who that is dead
4:31
people yeah it was it was it was fun i thought there was some the cement i could see where the 200 million went there was
4:37
some really great cinematography especially like in those close battle structure with the
4:43
with the uh cannons going off all that kind of stuff was good the close encounter type stuff with the shaky cam and all that stuff is a little bit
4:49
chess but you know i thought that up stuff close was pretty good as well
4:54
um significantly gory had some gore in there right like guy getting shot in the head and you got
5:00
yeah it wasn't really spikes and things like that i could have like appreciated you know more
5:06
uh mata like more gray matter on the head shots yeah it wasn't like a whole lot of spattering it was just like you know
5:13
presumably those balls make big holes so i don't think so yeah yeah i don't know plus they're going slow right so they're
5:19
doing a little bit more damage as like blonde force object than just something passing through something yeah yeah so anyway i think so not
5:26
entirely realistic is what we're seeing i think what we're both i think we're both agreeing to or what we saw last week which is agreeing with imdb is that
5:32
this movie is perfectly average decidedly average yeah all right that is the end of the
5:39
and that's most i think that's a majority of game and node's opinions
5:44
master and commander so i think that's going gives this movie a perfectly seven and a half out of ten
5:50
seven and four i love watching i love watching the phrase face during all those conversations it's just amazing
5:56
it's just taking i'll tell you i'll take your phone out okay you can't be right about everything can you say you know
6:03
things things that null is right about accounting things that usurper is right about network switches things that both
6:10
of you are right about not movies i can take that i don't get many movie recommendations
6:16
off youtube so you know but uh did you watch two hands i'm
6:21
pretty sure i recommended two hands did you watch that no can we talk about it
6:27
yeah we talked about two hands it's in the show notes somewhere yeah the heather how would you know you'd never look at the show dates you'd never
6:33
help guide the [ __ ] there's always mutiny from you i said
6:39
put the thing so we can contribute and you just don't do it you just have to make it a team thing a
6:45
brand you make it a brand and we can have more than one member i wrote it in the gun i wrote it in the
6:52
in the distance it's not in the spreadsheet but it's definitely significantly done in the spreadsheet yeah it's in the
6:58
it's in the discord i said change it to a brand and then we can all contribute all right so that's the youtube next
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week yeah we can we can fix it so you talk about two hands with heath leather ledger right like another yeah super
7:11
handy so another average movie it is an easy 9.5 to be fair all right i mean watch it
7:17
yeah i i will watch that purely so that i can tell you something you love is a 7.5
7:23
look it's got heath ledger in it so i recommend you go and watch all 7952
7:30
hours of home and away as well so then my march my homework for this
7:35
week is to find a movie that i think is amazing that imdb shows as a 7.0 and that'll be then for week three i'll i'll
7:42
put some forward i feel like a five has to be average out of ten that was seven
7:47
point five average and i am db though like there's some pretty five is like terrible yeah
7:52
five is the middle the five is ever that's the thing like the average isn't really the average it's just [ __ ] that's
7:59
like if it's below a seven it's like it's like restaurant ratings like three and a half
8:04
walk like on imdb five is the floor so five
8:10
is pretty miserable yeah all right so many things left it's like a well-known thing in reviews
8:15
how they they massively massively massively skew like into that final quadrant so that
8:21
you need that's why you need the point fives because otherwise it's basically impossible to actually arrive at a
8:27
rating um but it's like a really no but it's why if you go to
8:33
like the edinburgh fringe or like a comedy festival why it's really noticeable that they also give ones
8:39
and twos because two is it genuinely is [ __ ] like
8:44
don't go see it but one one is it's such a car crash you should
8:49
probably go see it and like i was gonna say the same thing about imdb when you're getting down to like
8:55
the 2.5 3 mark we're looking at cult classics so yeah yeah that's true i mean
9:01
you've got to watch those yeah but the room probably decidedly [ __ ] it's probably good
9:06
but but some of that stuff that rates pretty high in imdb but the but the uh like the critic reviews are awful right
9:13
like that's what that's that's usually the opposite classic usually means everybody loves it actually nels kind of got a point here
9:18
the room has got point six out so cult classics don't become
9:25
highly rated until later when they first come out they're rated dog [ __ ] because they're crap right but they're you know
9:31
they become cult classics right so because like okay a few people like that
9:36
and again that's why they called it yeah then again one of the best bad films of all time miami connection
9:43
has a perfect average of 5.6 yet it is objectively one of the most hilarious
9:50
and bad [ __ ] films ever made um so that i've never seen it miami connection
9:57
it is i've seen this it's absolutely amazing it opens it opens with
10:04
uh the guy who made it was this guy called grandmaster ykkim and it's the the only
10:10
available surviving copy is from like one that was submit made to be submitted to award shows yeah and normally then
10:16
the team and stuff will be there and it just opens with a cold opener of grandmaster ykk kim is not in attendance
10:23
and then it just plays the film and then right at the end and then there's loads of stuff that happens it's crazy and there's lots of violence and kung fu and
10:29
stuff well not coming through taekwondo i think if memory serves um really specifically i think it's
10:36
taekwondo and they were like they basically saw that bruce lee and stuff it was around that time had gotten popular and they're like we need that
10:42
for taekwondo so they like remortgaged their house and made this film and it's got like this 40 year old
10:47
grandmaster who's supposed to be an american high school kid yeah it is amazing
10:52
and the stunts are also actually really good but the whole premise is mental and then right at the end it just says like
10:59
again cold finish only through the elimination of violence will we achieve world peace
11:05
end of the film that's it it is absolutely inspirational
11:12
there are ninjas that deal with cocaine in it it's it it's like there's the the
11:18
dialogue is insane like this this whole like thing goes down and this guy just goes ninjas
11:23
he's like so annoyed he's like it sounds
11:32
it's like you know that film raw that we were talking about yeah the one with all the lions and [ __ ] it's
11:38
it's like that kind of mental where you're just like how did this get made this is awesome
11:44
um i actually i want to watch that new um like bollywood-esque movie rrr
11:51
i haven't heard of that yeah it's like i think it's new if it's got good dubs i'll watch it um
11:58
r r r just three r's our r that's r for
12:04
r have you ever heard or seen of um
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seen heard of or seen turkish star wars no
12:17
i got it so no so the reason i know about all these totally weird films is because i used to go
12:23
uh there was a film night uh which was just like literally lost weird films that should never have
12:30
happened like lady terminator that is a brilliant film like my favorite fact
12:35
about lady terminator so it's not a robot from the future it's a
12:40
sorceress queen from the past lady terminator um it's like it's b movie i think it was made in like
12:46
indonesia or something like that and one of the people who was in it thought it was going to be a big deal so he changed
12:52
his name so that his name wouldn't collide you know how the americans have that thing where you have to have a unique name or something in the actor's
12:58
guild so he thought he had a quite common name and it was already taken and he thought this film was gonna be such a
13:03
big deal he changed his name and what did he change his name to he changed his name to alvin stardust
13:10
and he's credited and it has oh just i mean yeah if you
13:15
go and make it up
13:24
he's like we're gonna bore everyone to death before we actually get to what we're talking about so to sum up we do have some homework
13:29
for next week for uh that heath ledger movie right that's what we talked about yeah yeah and uh i think we should all
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watch our r all right well that it's just released this year but yeah
13:40
i can make that happen i like how i didn't even say anything i already got roasted in the chat
13:46
immediately i was actually gonna say so we've like
13:52
gotten we've gotten people on the talk about specific things and we're still just talking the same [ __ ] from last week
13:58
welcome to gamer nodes uh yeah i did do other homework too i picked up
14:03
debt first five thousand years although i didn't realize how thick this book was which was really that's a big boy a thousand or five
14:09
people because i haven't written down my journal five thousand years five yeah five thousand years of debt so
14:15
that's why it takes like the better part of a year to read i'm like halfway through i thought i was going to read it
14:21
i thought i was going to read it for this week and then it showed up i was like okay maybe maybe december gaming nodes
14:28
and the other thing is that like you go to sleep per chapter as well so
14:33
like maybe a half chapter yeah pretty much it takes 14 goes to per scene
14:39
so um yeah you know whenever you're feeling like highly energetic and you know
14:44
people want you to settle down just read half a chapter you'll be out perfect
14:49
um i did order the rest of those books actually some showed up quite quickly thanks amazon
14:56
which one that's uh i don't the the skunk works and uh
15:02
the other one i had the i had the kryptonians on my list and i had that first five thousand years but
15:08
i remember hearing about skunk works last week yeah oh i know no zen for you ghost you didn't go ordering the uh
15:16
the uh what would you call those type of books usurper the zen books
15:23
yeah philosophy yeah yeah well it's also taoist it's not zen isn't well okay
15:28
exposing my potential ignorance and zen buddhism and the obviously ching is
15:35
taoism yes yes thank you although obviously there is
15:42
that there is a synergy between the two in the sense of the two often combined with animism in in certain parts of east
15:48
asia to to create sort of a compound folk religion i guess holy [ __ ]
15:53
can we move on for that i should know more about this let's get to the contest but i don't
15:59
so wait wait for you to look at the spreadsheet and take us on doll come on
16:05
we don't even have it over tweets okay let me open it up uh so just you
16:10
know talk about yourselves for a second okay well i guess like if we're doing uh
16:15
if we're just doing follow-ups and talk and kind of like events of the week i think the tornado
16:21
uh cash usdc frack r is probably worth mentioning at the top of the show
16:26
because that's fun isn't it i mean i know it's not directly related to the cosmos but you know
16:32
um it raises a lot of questions doesn't that
16:37
hang on hang on so you're telling me to go back and look at the spreadsheet literally the only thing on the
16:43
spreadsheet is master and commander that's because i am
16:53
[Laughter]
17:02
yeah so anyway sorry um no no uh you guys just
17:08
move it on the fray move it on come on let's go are we doing tornado cash on that yeah
17:14
all right i'm taking the position here of annihilationism i mean we all knew that this was going to happen sooner or later
17:21
with products like toronto cash and front-end services so i don't see this as a big deal whatsoever i mean you
17:28
can just reinstantiate contracts like this do the exact same thing there's tons of services that offer stuff like
17:33
turnout cash you can basically do the same stuff using secret network as it is so i don't
17:39
know this is a big deal whatsoever do you think that there's a well maybe more for the americans but there's more
17:45
it the significance is more about um the effect on open source code than it
17:52
is about the actual service itself and and what not like the press
17:58
yeah why wouldn't we just build a product where you could in a censorship-resistant way share your
18:05
code i mean like we're doing stuff like that with akash i know there's gitopia which is doing the same thing as well so
18:11
i think that these products will be out soon and this is kind of a non-issue i have a background actually in the dod
18:18
and nsa so i think people get over hyped about like offensive campaigns domestically in the
18:25
us when this is the best they could do you know what i mean it's like go after a few
18:30
addresses and not much is going to come of it in my opinion just kind of to scare people hopefully
18:37
in their eyes nobody will understand that they're technically deficient to actually stop the back end processes
18:42
from running and so they're trying to make a show out of it and cause a stir
18:48
of course wasn't it something like half a billion almost in assets though that are now basically
18:54
blacklisted you know in theory worthless if mm's and all that just decide to
19:00
not honor them because they're tainted addresses now yeah and you know that's uh
19:06
that's those people's fault for relying on services that could be censored you know as harsh as that sounds
19:13
like that's just yeah do you think that people maybe didn't see that risk when they were interacting
19:19
because it it's you the bottleneck there is usdc right um and i think
19:25
my lower opinion of usdc has already been on the show in the past but like
19:30
that could have been any fiat off-ramp that is central right so there is a question here of like
19:38
well there's an interesting question i suppose other than like doing what i remember people used to do back in
19:43
the early bitcoin meetups in like 2012 2013 where they were literally
19:49
swapping it in person and paying cash which in hindsight holy [ __ ] that was really
19:54
weird that was a really weird period but at the time completely normal to go to a crypto meet
19:59
up and see people swapping uh swapping it by you know essentially handing it off um
20:07
but like what what is that what is the systemic solution to that kind of thing is there one i guess not if you are right
20:14
yeah yeah i think we actually do need if you're gonna rely on crypto as a payment
20:19
in the context of like a domestic economy you do need stable coins tied to that native currency
20:25
and the reality is like dokuan failed but i didn't think that that was like a
20:31
fruitless effort and i don't think there's any reason like why tara actually had to fail i know that's a super controversial opinion
20:38
but something needs to take its place as a decentralized cryptocurrency uh even if it is over collateralized like i
20:44
know rye has a pretty interesting model that hasn't failed yet so maybe that's going to be the standard
20:50
but we need to decentralize stablecoin or we just have to accept like look we're not going to pay for us services
20:56
and there's not going to be as much of a intermingling financially between web 2 and web 3 which i'm also fine with
21:09
yeah no um shade had a twitter space earlier today it was like three or four
21:15
hours ago i hopped in i was kind of half listening but uh you know tornado cash was of course
21:21
the biggest and main subject and just the need to have
21:26
silk deployed faster of course you know they need to make sure things robust and working and actually
21:33
survivable you know and then there came the question of well what happens if the us decides to go after
21:40
anybody that's in the us working on this project you know are there other people in other countries what happens if all
21:46
of a sudden you get this cross-border coalition you know it's it raises all sorts of
21:52
questions you know um you mentioned gitopia and akash i'm really excited for
21:57
gootopia where whisper note's going to be part of the test that of course um i think it has a lot of potential you
22:03
know when those github accounts got taken down it's kind of a big
22:09
hit for developers everywhere you know you look at that and go like okay everything i just worked on or
22:15
everything i contributed to can just be completely taken away but it's a centralized service they absolutely have
22:21
the ability to do that and you know all it takes is a subpoena or whatever and that's
22:27
so kicked on that noise everybody hears is uh ghosts
22:34
uh air conditioning because he lives on the surface of the sun where the current temperature is somehow
22:40
north of yeah it's like 100 degrees celsius was 110.
22:47
like i don't know it's like 40 i don't know 40 something celsius roughly
22:52
i remember go i've been at arizona once i remember it's so hot you literally would like dash between
22:58
like shade and then just be like right [ __ ] it we're in some shade and maybe like [ __ ] there's no more shade i literally cannot i ran into my box which
23:06
is like 600 feet away in my community and then i went to the chevron which is another 400 feet away
23:13
and between there and coming back i was already like driving sweat it's it's literally the floor is lava there like
23:18
like don't go outside no it's just all lava yeah there is there is no floor it's just lava everywhere
23:24
sorry if i go on like a 30-second 45-second tirade on what dylan schultz put in
23:29
yeah yeah yes welcome brendan
23:35
welcome uh we haven't welcomed you yet mate so welcome in we you didn't miss much to begin with we were just talking
23:41
about master and commander for another half an hour um
23:47
and uh yeah so dylan shield says put up here so jeez
23:52
ah stop it um so
23:57
yeah okay so for the people who are listening dylan schultz has put up the question
24:03
really doesn't need to be stable off the usd and then the further question was that's stable
24:09
off the euro though i think we're talking about e-money why not stable off basket of goods so i
24:16
guess potentially for example from d fund or something like that so um
24:22
shade so bulgery uh you were did i say that right old drink multiple poultry
24:28
yes a revolutionary flag of the u.s oh nice
24:33
moultrie you uh had a tirade to go on please continue a positive tirade okay
24:39
so the first thing is like there are obviously uh cryptocurrency stable coins
24:44
that aren't based off the us dollar like rye which is tagged to this arbitrary number on ethereum
24:50
i'm kind of bearish though on like basket of goods services because if you think about what the dollar already is
24:55
is it's just a way to mediate value between two unrelated goods and services across time and space
25:02
it's like how many oranges is worth one donkey like you have no idea and you can eat all those oranges at once so that's
25:08
why money is useful so if inflation happened instantaneously it wouldn't make a difference because
25:13
you're still measuring the value between two goods and services but the problem is because it doesn't happen instantaneously it distorts markets as
25:20
that process occurs but as well if i could interject there um
25:26
so if inflation happens instantaneously that would affect
25:32
a market for example it depends on if that happens on a global scale like if we're talking just america yeah sure the
25:38
usd is only you know relevant to people in america and a lot of other people being a global
25:44
reserve however uh you know if i keep all of my money for example in a usd pegged asset and
25:52
there's a lot of inflation uh in america that'll drive down the value compared to
25:58
uh my country's native asset let's say unless we get a similar amount of inflation right so exactly yeah i think
26:05
there is like uniformly instantaneously just the fact that the dollar price went up would make a difference
26:11
because no if everyone else has changed relatively yeah exactly but i mean
26:16
when you're in a situation where um you know the us is printing a lot of money
26:21
and staring at potentially you know quite a bit of inflation over the next five to ten years
26:27
uh and other countries may not be in a similar situation then there's going to be some devaluing of their currency
26:33
against the us currency particularly if it happens quickly so you know i guess
26:39
a potential advantage of a grab bag of um of uh
26:44
stable assets to you know various currencies um in certain proportions would be that
26:51
there would be at least some sort of inflation protection against uh you know any single currency but
27:00
also um you know providing the same sort of thing it's just not pegged to a u.s
27:05
dollar yeah if it was paid to other currencies as well in addition to the us dollar that would be interesting but a
27:11
basket of goods pays to try and protect against inflation i don't think makes sense because the dollar already is
27:16
mediating against those goods and services so then yeah like like a basket of actual so when you say basket of
27:22
goods we're talking like you know a basket of uh you know some juno and some osmosis and
27:27
some bitcoin and some i don't know tesla shares or whatever um
27:32
so yeah i guess they they are down in different things like one is a basket of uh stocks and other things really and
27:40
then the other one is a basket of currencies i guess well yeah i mean i guess that's more
27:45
like a that's more like collateralizing or like an etf or or you know a traded fund whereas like when when this is done
27:53
at currency level in traditional macroeconomics it's done against specific consumer goods
27:59
so petrol orange orange juice bread bread is the big one like bread milk like
28:05
every every country in the world pretty much unless they hate milk which i think is
28:10
relatively rare is probably have bread and milk on the list of consumer price goods that they're using to assess
28:16
inflation and then work against but we we have a pretty good mo we have a pretty good
28:22
well studied example of how this can play out in practice uh and a lot of the pitfalls
28:28
with it which is the euro i mean and the the problems of the eurozone in tracking consumer price inflation in the series
28:36
of pretty heterogeneous economies that function in very very
28:41
different ways has like not always been plain sailing
28:46
by any means and the problem there has primarily been like well it's been a lot of different things
28:52
obviously everybody has an opinion my opinion is it's all about you know convergence and it's a lack of
28:58
investment in certain areas while still you know wanting essentially to bring people into the single market but
29:05
what is i guess that's the question here like when we're talking about like uh inflation and stuff in the context of
29:11
things we need to be aware of in the space that we're in what do we care about do we care about
29:16
purchasing price of the average consumer is that why we think inflation is an issue or do we
29:22
what what is the other reason for being worried about inflation because my instinctual reaction to inflation is it
29:28
only matters as far as it infects um
29:33
purchasing power right you know how many big macs can buy for one juno if you like which is the the economist famous
29:40
metric isn't it like the big mac index like if we started going like okay how's the juno do it how's juno doing in terms
29:46
of how many big macs i can get that's the problem isn't it because we'll be talking about the us or we'll be talking about different countries but
29:52
we'd still be talking about purchasing power so like could you do a compound index of that or do we not give a [ __ ]
29:57
about purchasing power don't know so i mean it matters in terms of
30:03
preservation of value right so your purchasing power is the value of the the currency
30:09
relative to other things so i mean there's a there's a problem with
30:15
just you know picking one and rolling with it they can be granted usd is the big one but yeah it's
30:22
it's relative inflation is the is the issue not just inflation and purchasing power of one single currency
30:29
because you know this is a global scale like sometimes we tend to forget that the entire crypto universe doesn't just
30:36
exist in america and it's on a global scale right so it's not about the relative purchasing power of
30:44
just one currency it's on a global scale so um
30:50
you know what what what affects me in australia might not affect uh you know uh ghost in america so much
30:58
like if if the us dollar goes up a hundred percent
31:03
then you know obviously that would come along with some kind of income on
31:09
on savings and that type of stuff and it might not affect them so much as if um the us dollar go say i've got all my
31:16
money in usdc and the u.s dollar goes up 100 percent in australia stays relatively stable then i've lost 50
31:23
percent of the value of that relative to my currency
31:28
i i think actually too like inflation matters most in supply side economics
31:33
it's like i'll draw a little graph here if you can't see it i'll just give up but
31:39
like can you see that yes so like if you have demand one and
31:45
supply one meeting like that is going to be the free market rate for something and then like what
31:51
inflation actually does is drive up demand because the expectation that goods and services will be more expensive in the future incentivizes you
31:58
to spend the goods and services now so demand rises to demand to right over here
32:04
which pushes up the price of goods and services as demand rises relative to supply to supply so supply rises to meet
32:11
the increased demand but if the money printing ever stops demand will fall back to the free market rate and you
32:16
actually experience deflation or relative deflation so the
32:21
second intersection right here is the new rate so it's lower than the original one so then you have the issue of
32:28
a broken supply chain of people who purchase the goods and services ahead of time aren't continuing to purchase
32:34
therefore layoffs occur supply surges occur at the same time prices are going to begin to fall because
32:41
the artificial demand stimulated in the markets particularly in financial markets isn't going to be there at the free
32:47
market rate and like you can see that where asset prices skyrocketed uh when
32:52
the fed started printing in 2020 or just printing more and then they kind of collapsed as soon as the fed said they
32:58
were going to stop and a lot of stuff fell pre uh to pre-covet levels
33:04
so i think that's the issue of inflation primarily you just brought me back to like macro
33:09
101 and uh 15 years ago you know that was good yeah
33:16
yeah i mean i have economic research published on this uh so that's the only reason i know anything about this
33:22
particular issue so like just one thing i would add like in money
33:28
printing and inflation and and supply and demand is that um i don't think that
33:34
the supply and demand curve i couldn't see yours properly yours had two lines
33:39
but i don't think that um in a in a heavy inflation environment
33:44
that the supply and demand curve is 100 accurate in that
33:51
when you're in a situation where the economics is kind of buggered anyway you've got uh when you've got like
33:57
covered and a lot of unemployment um you're in a i think this is sort of like the thesis of the
34:04
the the new what do they call it the new the money printing um thesis
34:10
uh i can't remember what they call it yeah well it's quantitative easing but they call it like new
34:16
uh you know it's like new economics or some [ __ ] like that but anyway when there's
34:21
like a period of high unemployment economic theory yeah well it's called something like you
34:27
know it's something like modern economics or something like that anyway
34:32
can't hear you mate um when there's like low employment you're
34:37
in a bit of a situation where you can print money to a certain degree to
34:43
counteract the lack of competition in the marketplace so modern monetary theory right yeah
34:50
that's it modern monetary theory so um how to google it yeah so how it works is you can you can
34:57
print money for a little while while there's low unemployment without driving up inflation too much
35:03
because there's reduced marketplace competition and as you print money and distribute it in a you know
35:11
fair and equitable way to the people then they can then create some competition in the marketplace to either
35:17
keep prices stable or slightly push them up but you can only do it for so long until
35:22
you've flooded so much money supply into the market and not producing anything because
35:27
people are unemployed that it all sort of goes a little bit to [ __ ] which is where right now
35:33
i'm going to primarily do it by credit as well that's the other problem yeah because sorry who disagrees
35:40
i think we probably both disagree with three different reasons i'll let mould troops get first i'm an anti-monetarist for sure so like
35:47
i would reject the idea that printing money could ever not lead to more inflation you might not see cpi increase
35:54
in terms of a percentage but it would always have to be higher than it otherwise would have been if you weren't
36:00
earning money so that would be my counter claim
36:07
the fray you also had something to say uh yeah i mean actually very a very very similar point which is that like you're
36:13
gonna you're always gonna cause inflationary pressure with measures like that whether you're moving on the demand side of the supply side
36:20
and my issue with mmp is more that because it operates almost entirely in practice
36:26
uh along the lines of like um yeah essentially credit it's actually not it's basically the unsustainable
36:32
nature of the way in which you're stimulating demand to create the
36:38
illusion of growth is actually the problem and this kind of comes back to purchasing power because the other way
36:44
of changing purchasing power which also is inflationary because all these things are
36:50
um is actually to allow wage inflation to happen and one of the big things
36:55
that's happened from the 1970s onwards is a fall in real wages and like that is
37:01
a a big reason why i think ordinary people um
37:07
have this idea that inflation is bad is because what they what they associate with that is the decline in purchasing
37:14
power on a measure of real wages which you can see a lot a lot of
37:20
different problems that come along from that and primarily the replacement of buying power with credit which has
37:27
obviously been accelerating since 20s onwards and i am not enough of an economic scholar
37:33
on the history of credit to to talk on it on you know in any meaningful depth but
37:39
that replacement has its own impact in terms of the the movement of the macro demand and supply and it's a complex
37:44
system so i'm not i you know obviously it's not just like oh you move one thing and you move this other thing there's a lot of moving parts yeah you you have to
37:51
choose which of those which com like what kind of level of stimulus you're trying to push in which direction i guess
37:57
although i'm still not 100 sure what this has to do with uh with tornado cash but
38:02
oh yeah we get lost in the weeds quite often so i know like in australia like we're
38:10
sort of just starting to experience the inflation now a little bit but we've
38:15
got stagflation because and i think america's probably in the same situation um like our
38:22
there's no real wage growth in australia at the moment but we are seeing quite a bit of like price pressure on you know
38:28
consumer goods and it's it is a lot to do with how we did our
38:34
inflation here but also cheap credit at the same time people here have gone absolutely [ __ ]
38:40
mad and just borrowing money left right and center
38:46
um for just consumer goods and stuff like that so um you're in a situation where we've had
38:52
covid supply chains are crunched all over the world we've kept available money supply
38:58
by printing money and injecting it into the economy in various ways
39:03
and now we've got a lot of people trying to buy stuff we're hitting a supply crunch so there's a lot of competition now in the marketplace to buy the same
39:09
things uh recreational stuff and stuff you shouldn't be buying staring down the face of a
39:15
depression and that is just really starting to put a lot of pressure on the market and push
39:21
prices of everything up but at the same time you're not seeing any real uh wage growth inflation or anything
39:26
like that so i mean some of that stems from all the logistics and shipping issues in china and all that as well so
39:33
it's like combining that with the inflation is just a recipe for disaster
39:39
yeah absolutely and i think that it was done on the um you know with the with the view that
39:47
code was a short-term thing and things would be uh back on track and and global supply
39:53
chains would be back on track and now we've got a lot of free cash in the in the economy and not a lot of
40:01
production and productivity so yeah and you know all the supply
40:06
issues and and um yeah so it's really just culminated in
40:12
in now a lot of competition and price inflation but
40:18
yeah for some reason the the um wage inflations are following it and i know in australia that a lot of
40:25
companies are just profiteering off the idea of inflation so
40:30
they don't know a lot more i know just just to interject it is worth saying that australia is one of
40:38
the few places i think that has actually had a diminished impact of uh stagnant
40:43
um stagnant or declining real wages in the global north because of your mining and
40:50
heavy industry like for everybody else that's been declining since like the 80s
40:55
but australia has actually been bucking the trend until to my knowledge until relatively
41:02
recently so i think it may also be that it's just catching up with the rest of
41:07
um the economic situation has been experienced elsewhere i just want to also shout out uh we just had a comment
41:13
from ben davis saying the correct way to make a stable coin is to peg it to the price of the price of a freddo that is the most
41:20
stable stable uh what's it called commodity in the universe so yes that is a sensible way i
41:26
thought it was arizona what is that what is alfredo yeah
41:32
so one one more thing i do want to say completely unrelated to what we're here to talk about is that in australia at
41:39
least um companies i feel and from some of the stuff i've read are using the
41:46
the um illusion of inflation uh to actually push their prices up and
41:52
make bigger margins so there's no wage growth inflation at the moment but
41:58
there is inflation in the price of goods and services and a lot of that is companies using
42:03
yeah the the talk of inflation to actually push their prices higher and make and
42:08
make deeper margins on the same amount of cost base so non-facetiously
42:15
on ben's point alfredo usurper is a very small sweet is a little chocolate about
42:21
jaeger yay hi it's got a frog on it freddo the frog holy [ __ ] he doesn't know what a freddo
42:26
is oh yeah i know i just assumed everybody had fredo's but apparently not um but it's always perfectly slightly
42:33
more than like the absolute cheapest suite but slightly less than like a fudge bar
42:40
you know so in terms of purchasing price alfredo has been astonishingly consistent for a
42:47
very very long period of time they they haven't they haven't shaved off the fredo over the years just a little bit
42:53
here wow this is the thing okay if anybody knows how many grams of freddo has been over the past 40 years
43:00
so we can track that because maybe my assumption that the purchasing price of the average child has always been
43:06
adequate to get you a fredo a day maybe that friday you get every day is going down size
43:12
so which would just prove that we're just getting shafted do we have live rewind did you just say
43:19
the purchasing price of a child i said the purchase is
43:37
to raise them to high school age something like that or something crazy like that i think it's like in the u.s
43:43
it's like a quarter mil quarter mill you got more what's the joke for calvin
43:48
and hobbes there's something like all the money we're using to raise you you've got to ask calvin is that cash in
43:54
the bank or is that alone is it is it freddo or fredo
44:01
alfredo it was you frederick it was you fredo
44:06
it's not you okay i i really enjoyed your big mac juno i was looking at what how many big macs the juno was at and
44:13
this week it's gone from about point eight big macs to one point two one big macs
44:18
and just now it just crossed over 1.2 big macs since we've been on this call
44:25
that's amazing i hope we can get is there an index this is why this is a great one this is because this is
44:30
going to say it yeah yeah we should create one because com forward slash big yeah can can we
44:36
put that on the game of nodes website just as a background in the uh the juno bmi
44:44
the juno bmi that's right so we're at one right now i'm just doing the math we're at one point two two
44:50
bmi which is pretty awesome i'm hoping we get to i mean i mean the ath is like i don't know
44:57
nine bmi but that's okay we'll get there we'll take 1.5 right now
45:02
completely unrelated to anything again um moultrie sent you here and you said that you work at the dod
45:09
say what do you know about bob lazar i don't know anything
45:15
i don't work like for the dod anymore we do do a lot of work related to them
45:21
um so we're trying to coordinate an announcement from the pentagon right now about some stuff we did on top of secret
45:27
and akash but um hasn't press release hasn't come out yet so i've just been sitting on it
45:33
um but hopefully we'll get some some cool stuff not related to any controversial political figures uh or
45:38
anybody else out dang it i was i was hopeful i thought you might
45:43
have some insider information that you'd be you know willing to share on a live podcast maybe maybe brendan does i don't
45:49
know yeah man we'll get we'll get you on a silver contract that's what we'll do i used to work for a navy actually dod
45:57
marine corps uh navy don't get me started now were you a sword
46:02
swo subs pilot ah none of you none of the above
46:07
just well the navy they're the best place that's you know you guys are at the front line with those ufos right
46:18
there's some funny funny military stereotypes about the navy but
46:23
yeah full of semen i mean [Laughter]
46:29
my dad's going just on his 30 years of you know about to retire and i always give him [ __ ] for you know love i take
46:35
back everything i take back it off i take it all back
46:44
okay right so do we want to move on then to uh the next topic that we're coming up
46:50
with topics as we're talking uh we're building out the spreadsheet so let's move on to uh
46:57
some validator related stuff how about sybil's guys
47:02
uh so i think we're discovering that there are well i mean we've got the who
47:18
it's not technically a sybil because they're openly doing it does that make it noticeable
47:24
i would say yes technically yes but it's still the same
47:30
concept they're taking up two slots so what what would you suppose that the
47:36
purpose of that is to have two validators
47:41
being so rich that you're like let's spread our risk [ __ ] it i can do it the icf's on my side
47:47
yeah yeah that's actually the only confusing part about this to me i actually don't think that this is i'm
47:53
open to changing my mind but i don't think this is bad that they have two validator nodes that's me and ghost i
47:59
think disagree about this but uh the only confusing thing is about why they would do to because if you're
48:06
paying for one piece of infrastructure and you have a hundred thousand tokens delegate to you that's gonna be more cost effective than splitting it between
48:12
two and having 58 each so i'm just not sure why they're doing it but i don't think it's necessarily a bad thing and
48:19
we can get into that i think if you have a lot of uh tokens delegated like the cost of
48:24
infrastructure et cetera becomes relatively not an issue
48:29
um i mean thank you rona hetzner for 40 50 bucks a month and it's you know
48:35
trivial to them just any new validators out there listening
48:40
for god's sake don't use hats now just pick something else yeah um
48:46
yeah is using it so let's see so obviously we have like also a bunch
48:52
of um other validators that are uh like white labels right so
48:58
i mean what what do we think about that is do we consider that a sybil if it's not
49:04
disclosed or does it not really matter it doesn't matter because it's the same operator like are we looking at the
49:10
inherent risk of that and potentially that they're all in the same place running the same sort of um you know methodology uh with their
49:19
infrastructure and that type of stuff so any comments on that well there's a reason the juno
49:25
delegations handbook specifically says if you have if you are not running your own infra if you're alright a white
49:31
label both the white labeler and the person who is getting somebody
49:37
to run their infra for them can't get a delegation from from dev from core for for running
49:44
other infra whatever doesn't matter like even if you white label a validator and a relayer you get no points for the
49:51
relayer because you're white labeling so it's out of your hand it's out of your
49:56
control yeah there's no accountability and responsibility there like what's what's
50:02
the [ __ ] point of web 3 if we're just going to pay somebody else to run our ship for us that's [ __ ] stupid i
50:08
disagree yeah here's the thing from my perspective
50:14
yeah i disagree and like the i don't necessarily disagree like if we're talking about
50:20
from a front-end side it's like on akash there's this group called prater and they build providers for people
50:26
essentially and so like to do that they require you to have attributes on chain that say specific things about you but
50:33
there's still the ability to revert to sedona to pseudonymity i would say the word at the protocol level and i think
50:40
that's important so like if the government was coming for one of our chains and they knew i ran moultrie
50:46
it's gonna be really easy to shut me down but if i paid other people to run things and had it under my name that does add a
50:52
level of robustness in terms of keeping the chain going if a nation state was to come after us
50:59
yeah but i just don't think that's okay well because it might happen for the americans but i think for the rest of us
51:07
we're going to get taxed and then that will be the end of it they're going to be like oh thanks that's quite a bit of money
51:13
yeah you know what just don't keep doing what you're doing i mean enough they're going to basically
51:19
come for us and they're going to be it's not gonna be like oh they come for you it's gonna be like hey man i hate tell you this here's 50 pages of paperwork
51:26
you need to fill in now to continue being a validator because sorry like you know we're gonna have to
51:32
do this and also just a little bit more tax and you'll be like that's a pain can we afford it yeah okay
51:39
right i guess i'll move on with my day and continue running servers and living the rockstar
51:44
life of the validator you know i think it it depends what's built on top of the protocol and what the protocol is doing
51:50
i mean obviously something like secret network with the whole tornado cache debacle that we just had
51:58
has a little more inherent risk in the government trying to shut down that network because you can perform
52:05
functions like building a coin mixer on it and if someone were to build
52:10
a say a dark net or something like that on top of secret network or a coin mixer
52:17
you know maybe that product itself is built by like completely anonymous people and there's
52:24
no way for a government to go after them but maybe they can go after the validators that are public and the chain
52:30
itself it's like you know in one country though right like
52:36
the the chances of the entire world doing that and all going after the validators of one network is like pretty
52:42
slim and i guess as long as stakers could switch this delegation right as the validators got taken down i mean
52:49
because this is the thing right like obviously that's not good for us as validators but from the point of view of
52:55
the network and the point of view of the owners of the network who are the stakers it would probably be fine because we are
53:01
replaceable and we should be replaceable so like a different way of thinking about
53:07
this was kind of in the in the juno prop 16 thing which was not about government censorship but the fear potentially of
53:14
legal repercussions of um regulatory repercussions right
53:20
that was much more like you know a regulator knocks on your door and shuts you down that that that felt to me more
53:26
likely at least in in our jurisdiction right but in that situation again
53:32
the the irony here and the irony we kind of felt at the time was that if we did get shut down
53:38
like stakers would be like well first of all you weren't that hot on prop 16 anyway and also we're going to
53:44
redelegate somebody else anyway so not only do you go to jail but you also lose all your money for a thing that you
53:50
didn't even want to do and that was i think the the prime the huge irony of prop 16 right and that was why it was
53:56
very silly in my personal view whatever um
54:02
but yeah you make a good point about secret i guess but then it's also i think i guess back to you know back to
54:07
my point that's a weird thing to say you know i guess it's kind of fine that we're expendable right as validators
54:14
yeah so yeah i mean there's a few things here like one i actually don't think it's
54:20
unreasonable to assume that a lot of people would come for one chain especially like something like ethereum
54:26
and like 29 countries shut off the internet in 2020 so like they shut down the internet in the us
54:32
we'll see what happens to to ethereum i i don't i don't know what happened we are
54:39
like a little bit different though to the cosmos in that it's pretty anonymous like uh
54:46
you yeah because the notes do run on like aws and azure
54:55
because russia shut down the internet for a period of time in 2020. it's like stuff would have just gone offline and like we think we're
55:01
expendable i agree like at a technical level but like the reality is is how fast
55:07
could like 60 validators come onto akashnet in one hour it's not i don't think it's
55:12
going to happen well i mean that would just make it centralized anyway because there's only a certain amount of the cash providers
55:19
and they're in the us oh sorry go ahead sorry last point i
55:25
don't know i'm rambling on but we have a guy elio trades or youtuber who had a validator in akash he hasn't produced a
55:31
block in seven days still has 1.3 million akt delegated to him and there
55:37
isn't a foundation delegation so i'm not super confident in delegators being that involved especially on smaller chains to
55:43
redelegate quickly right so that's a good point your last
55:49
one um you know that's where groups like cosmos validators and uh
55:55
what's the other one that jack from strange love um
56:00
one of you guys know you know the validator commons yeah yeah validator accounts that's kind of what you know these groups are trying
56:08
to accomplish is providing better information for delegators to actually go and make competent decisions you know
56:14
not pushing our own notes or anything but literally just giving them the data and saying hey this is what
56:20
you know xyz validator is doing here is a much simpler dashboard to look at to
56:26
make decisions from because right now you're just inundated with a giant list
56:31
and you know oh well i'm just going to pick from the top 10 because they look safe they all have the same percentage
56:36
commissions you know they're at the floor relatively the same they look the safest yeah yeah
56:42
going back to the previous point with validators are replaceable
56:47
and tying this back to tornado cache there was actually a point that you know there were legal implications
56:53
for even signing a block that then you know related to tornado cache so any
56:59
validator any node ahead even process a transaction that touch tornado cache
57:06
you're now liable so you know if every single node on the
57:11
network is processing these blocks how how replaceable you know can you really
57:17
replace all of that yes and this is where like the sybil comes into play for me which is
57:24
can you put rama's uh comment up there where he says okay so for change i was about to say we should probably address
57:30
that comment okay so like this is a problem he is he's completely can i just say can i just because this will go out
57:36
on a podcast player as well um so rama has commented uh so for a chain let's say we end up with five white level
57:42
providers doing updates on 50 nodes total so for most cosmos chains that would be like half of the the vowel set
57:49
let's say they [ __ ] up and they halt the chain are we okay with that
57:55
so like my response here is like that would suck that is bad but the alternative to actually being
58:02
able to prevent somebody from pseudonymously creating other validators would be to have like an access
58:08
mechanism to join the chain as a validator and that is a very centralized force so
58:13
like you lose permissionlessness as you try and prevent civil attacks and i
58:19
think that in the hierarchy of values in a blockchain you should put permissionlessness above
58:24
that of the risk of a symbol like he's right that is a problem but i just don't see
58:29
how you can fix it without losing permission listeners all right i definitely yeah i think you can only fix it with social pressure
58:36
right yeah and if it's pseudonymous like how are you going to catch them
58:41
right well the other way you fix it right is by having a vowel set so large that it doesn't matter because back to
58:48
your point moultrie like it it actually makes sense both from well both from infra time
58:55
delegations to just run one node so there's also the thing of like if you have the i strongly suspect actually the
59:03
more nodes you have even in any system where you're involving voting power the more dumb the idea of even running a
59:10
sybil or running multiple nodes becomes from an operational standpoint so there's also a question of like you know
59:17
when valve sets move beyond 100 200 300 and that might not be possible with
59:23
current tendermint bft um but is possible in other systems right yeah i mean like
59:30
the question you bring up a great point is with the sybil why do we even care
59:35
we we don't really theoretically care if there wasn't such competition for those bottom
59:41
spots i don't think i don't think we'd be going on about it so much if it weren't taking the opportunity away from
59:48
someone else qualified um and if decentralization is the true
59:53
why we give a [ __ ] factor then like you said there's some number where
59:58
we hit a thousand nodes and it doesn't matter anymore or you know 10 000 nodes whatever that number may be
1:00:05
for me that was the biggest reason of calling out kobe was i mean literally a day before bro and bro made
1:00:12
a big push we see them all across the ecosystem we know they're qualified validator they're trusted a lot of
1:00:18
people delegate to them they contribute to the ecosystem yet they can't make it you know even to the
1:00:25
floor meanwhile you've got a centralized exchange validator that's icf
1:00:31
you know they're delegating to them so they support them taking up an additional slot for what
1:00:37
reason exactly i mean you know yeah the the reality though is
1:00:42
they could have just launched that node and said that they were ghost node or whatever and we wouldn't
1:00:48
have known and then we all would have gone about our days as if everything was perfectly valid
1:00:54
they could have um the thing is is that both of these wallets on both of the
1:00:59
nodes tie back three and a half years and feed into the same exact wall so at the end of the day i mean there's no
1:01:04
disputing that this is yeah yeah but they could have just used a new wallet like no i'm saying it's kind of abnormal
1:01:10
it's so transparent but if they just use a new wallet and change their name they still would have taken brown bro spot
1:01:16
and we would have thought everything was fine so like there's if you say don't do that
1:01:22
we're not actually stopping them from doing anything they'll find a way yeah no i i definitely get your point you
1:01:27
know um i guess when i use you know the term sybil in this scenario it isn't quite the
1:01:34
correct term even though it is very similar in what it's doing
1:01:40
um yeah i guess we're we're almost we're talking about running multiple validators really in this situation
1:01:46
aren't we we're just like i think like brandon said the real the real question here is
1:01:52
even if small the fact that you're not getting an additional operator when you only have
1:01:58
100 slots when you only have 150 slots let's say is
1:02:04
actually it's like what even it's one 150th of the network is said is more so
1:02:09
as a result which is actually a meaningful amount one team that does that or two teams that do that and three
1:02:15
and then all of a sudden uh you know this snowballs if we allow this to which is back to the white label i think i was
1:02:22
i was gonna try to bring it back there frank because i was actually curious when you mentioned white labeling and
1:02:28
juno are do they take active measures to monitor if validators are white
1:02:36
labeling and if so how what would that even look like in terms of how how would you even know
1:02:43
well that's a good question um it's something it's something that there are well there
1:02:50
are obviously ways of trying to work out but at a most fundamental level it it's
1:02:57
basically you can most people are open enough with whether or not they're
1:03:03
doing it is number one which is obviously the easiest thing to do because i think people are quite
1:03:09
obviously fearful of being discovered if they are lying caught in the act if you like
1:03:15
but the second thing is like it's also very very obvious if people are technically qualified or not to
1:03:20
you know interact with the linux command line so that's that's also a dead clue that you can then
1:03:26
go from there to work it out i think somebody who had more of a like actual security background would be able
1:03:31
to probably come up with something more sophisticated yeah
1:03:36
both to you know do white labeling and get away with it or also to uncover who was doing what
1:03:42
um like definitely some people dox themselves though anyway like lots of people dox themselves as well but it's
1:03:49
also like i say is also pretty obvious who's who's running a white label and who's not um i think the big
1:03:57
yeah like i say i i i think it's one of those that like i don't have
1:04:02
i have a problem with the majority of the valve set or like a significant chunk of the valve set
1:04:09
became white labeled by one or two operators that would be very bad and i know there are some very big validator
1:04:15
operations who are looking to aggressively expand in the bear market
1:04:20
and that concerns me as somebody who is part of our core team for network stability because i spend a
1:04:27
lot of time thinking about what will happen if the network is down right um
1:04:33
and and how bollocked am i gonna get on twitter if it turns out that there were 40 [ __ ] nodes with the same white
1:04:39
labels be like what are you guys doing are you totally [ __ ] asleep and it would be like
1:04:44
oh yeah i guess we are totally [ __ ] asleep huh yeah
1:04:50
i was just going to say like i'm curious as kind of there's been talk about there about this validator code of conduct
1:04:58
um type of um you know document that that people may
1:05:04
put on their own website or um on the cosmos validator you know discord and things like that is
1:05:10
white labeling something we would you know include in that code of conduct is it something how do we feel about
1:05:17
that in general i think that would be like a whole nother game of nodes episode potentially
1:05:23
i think the problem with the code of conduct is is that it's entirely optional and a lot of people who do that
1:05:30
type of stuff probably wouldn't sign up to the code of conduct anyway and at the end of the day who gives a [ __ ]
1:05:36
about a code of conduct other than validators i think it's like pretty much a
1:05:43
thing that the majority of delegators would never see or care about
1:05:48
and because they're only interested in their influencer node right the person who's making the most noise on twitter
1:05:55
so they don't care about whether you're a good operator or not how many nodes you run any of that [ __ ] all i care
1:06:01
about is you know did you say the right thing on the the twitter verse and that's to be fair
1:06:07
not everybody but the vast majority of people so you know i don't think it matters what you
1:06:14
put on your your code of conduct um in that sense i think you can like
1:06:19
you know do as much social pressure as you want in the validator sphere of things like you know between you me and
1:06:26
and the other validators all in that particular group and applying pressure to each other in that way but at the end
1:06:33
of the day there's going to be outliers who just don't give a [ __ ] and have enough reach anyway so i don't really you know i'm
1:06:40
right i mean two fences with with codes of conducts and that type of stuff it's it's nice it is nice and cuddly to do
1:06:47
um and expect that people will like abide by it but at the end of the day
1:06:52
if someone wants to make money they're going to say [ __ ] you throw it to the wall we don't give a [ __ ] yeah
1:06:58
what is yeah if it's unenforceable who gives a [ __ ] like just just putting it out there
1:07:04
is is potentially like it's just like why yeah what like and kind of exposing
1:07:10
its uselessness is actually kind of like i i would like to think that the
1:07:16
needle cast position ourselves as like we're pretty transparent about what we do we try our best in everything we do
1:07:22
but you know we're also like not making any promises we're not going to keep suit i doubt we would [ __ ] sign a code of conduct because it would be like
1:07:30
why we won't like at king nodes we will apply our own policies because of that's
1:07:37
what we want to do we want to abide by our own policies and we want people to know what they're
1:07:42
getting when they delegate to us but in terms of like an all-encompassing
1:07:48
code of conduct for all validators to abide by i think it's a total waste of [ __ ] time to be honest it's just not
1:07:54
going to stick it unless it's literally you know pass through governance and becomes code
1:08:00
and and also to be honest might actually defeat the object of the whole enterprise anyway like it it kind of
1:08:06
seems to me that if you are able to enforce a code of conduct on like something like like obviously
1:08:11
foundation delegations or or you know multi-sig delegations in the case of juno like that yeah obviously it's up to
1:08:17
that or that dow essentially to decide how they want to distribute that money so they're doing an economic
1:08:23
incentive to encourage good behavior or behavior they see was good great
1:08:29
that's kind of what we're doing here i guess but apart from that it's like well
1:08:35
the opposite is true actually you want you want as many people running as many
1:08:40
different nodes as many different ways as possible and you probably want as many of them as possible in the longer term too
1:08:46
so yeah i don't know well when you have a decentralized
1:08:52
systems of pulleys and ropes like if you are enforcing anything
1:08:58
it's counter to the ethos of that thing like you can't
1:09:04
have a decentralized permissionless thing and then try to enforce a rule on it you can yeah like you say incentivize
1:09:11
the types of behaviors that you want to see from like you know bodies with a lot of power
1:09:17
but you can't selectively say this is a decentralized system with no
1:09:23
rules however you can't run a symbol you can't do this and you can't do that all we can say is
1:09:29
all the other validators think that that's a shitty thing to do and [ __ ] you for doing it
1:09:35
but at the end of the day you're gonna do it anyway yeah yeah unless it's in code if it's in code
1:09:40
then it's law well that is the only law in this system is the code that we have
1:09:45
well social consensus prop 16 showed that it was social consensus
1:09:50
yeah but there's still code right social media
1:09:56
though what's that can't code away civil so like that's not
1:10:02
which qed right that means you can't stop sybils i mean you could you could you could have
1:10:08
the ability to yeah government
1:10:13
social slashing or a specific key could be the only one to create a validator and you can
1:10:18
you know have it this centralized point where validators are corrected or uh created so that way i would verify
1:10:25
that you are who you say ghost and then now you can have your your validator as i sign you through an audited attribute
1:10:30
or something like that but that is very permissioned and anti-cryptocurrency so in my opinion
1:10:37
back to square one you got to let cybill exist will it you'll see
1:10:42
whatever jumped in the comments to say he disagrees and there should be a method for slashing through governance
1:10:48
picking up on what ghost said um there should be a way to punish bad behavior but this is i think back to
1:10:54
the kind of rough consensus we were arriving at there which is like okay there's two different things going on here there's what does the code allow
1:11:00
you to do and then there's there's this big woolly social
1:11:05
consensus which at the moment is very largely dj's and airdrop hunters
1:11:12
let's be honest and right so so which you know kind of it's
1:11:19
up you know any system suffers from the culture that engenders it and blah blah let's not go too post-modern about it
1:11:25
but that's the situation we're in right and if that actually changes and we get mass adoption then the question is what
1:11:31
systems are we going to build and what can what is consensus going to say this is wrong
1:11:37
write code to correct it because that's basically how law
1:11:42
works ish with a little bit of wiggling for corporate interests and all the different ebbs and flows of you know
1:11:48
power dynamics in the society right it's basically a combination of different things that are forming a social
1:11:54
contract right so but we're still so early that nobody apart from the validators maybe in the
1:12:00
devs and a few engaged people and the very clever people obviously listening to this podcast watching it on youtube
1:12:06
or twitter and commenting in the comments are obviously thinking about because we get a lot of tweets and
1:12:11
things about subjects just like this um but like i think the majority of the users in in the space are not
1:12:18
are not thinking about those things yet they're not thinking about like governance as actual governance like
1:12:23
other than in very exceptional circumstances like maybe prop 16 was one of those
1:12:29
uh just also shout out to all of the people uh listening and watching our podcast
1:12:35
thanks for coming and uh just know that you are alphas you are going to make it
1:12:43
if you're not watching this and don't invest in epsilon whatever you do yeah well so i i called this i called
1:12:50
this one we're doing a new thing where rather than try and name the episode afterwards we're gonna name it ahead of time i called this one beyond
1:12:57
thunderdome because i was expecting serious drama based on the amount of sledging that had happened on twitter in the week and we've actually kept it yeah
1:13:04
we've just been talking about actual things but there was there was some multi drew a bloody a bloody graph of
1:13:09
mac where you know macroeconomic supply and supply and demand graph that's like
1:13:14
taking taking all of us back to school that did econ so like hand drawn in like one second he's like here's the graph
1:13:20
boys so my question is where's my what is my drama where's my drama
1:13:26
i i can't well i mean for the truth the past few days all echelon oh let's create some drama yeah let's move on to
1:13:34
echelon so who wants to who wants to lay the lore on echelon and give us the rundown maybe ghost he seems like
1:13:39
everybody wants to go fight i got this [ __ ] ah so imperative was the first to leave
1:13:46
the set um but prior to that i hang on hang on hang on hang on and just pause
1:13:53
what did you say imperative imperative can anyone is this is this how it's said
1:13:59
how how do you say it how do you sound comparative i'm insane imperator i don't know
1:14:05
is that a word i should know sorry man continue i just uh yeah i really need another one
1:14:11
they were the first ones to leave this set but um i had been getting dms from i think
1:14:18
two or three different people for roughly two or three weeks just saying hey something doesn't look right here
1:14:24
you know we've looked at github we looked at this we looked at that we knew it was a one you know practically
1:14:30
one-to-one clone of at most they were just working and trying to run their own thing yadda
1:14:36
yadda okay whatever it was one of these small [ __ ] chains you know um that don't be joined it might turn
1:14:43
into something it might not they may go on to create their own thing on top of this which okay fine
1:14:48
you know if that happens great it turned into something um that
1:14:54
ended up not being the case at all uh you know a lot of information was
1:14:59
shared that started pointing to very different things um i don't remember the guy's name
1:15:05
exactly carson carson something ck yeah yeah is all i
1:15:11
know um you know some apparently like known prolific scammer dating back to
1:15:18
2013 and just across various ecosystems scamming i mean apparently one of his old bosses
1:15:25
from like i think it's gaw or daw miners something like that back in 14 15 13 something
1:15:33
like that was actually indicted and imprisoned and carson managed to
1:15:38
get away with it and not serve any time and all that um and he's just been going from ecosystem to
1:15:44
ecosystem right before he came to the cosmos with echelon well according to him echelon is not the cosmos
1:15:50
even though it's tendermint cosmos sdk and he's advertising to everybody in the
1:15:56
cosmos um and he fourth the most but uh in i guess he went over in harmony
1:16:03
and did a bunch of [ __ ] over there and then before that you know it was a different ecosystem i mean if you just
1:16:08
go back on twitter there's a trail of just tweets and ecosystems people are saying what's carson up to these days oh
1:16:15
looks like he's attacking you know cosmos now and so it's it seems it seems like
1:16:21
carson is a little bit scary so let's uh let's review the the events really that
1:16:28
led to uh us even looking into it or you know the cosmos people even looking into
1:16:34
it and uh and uncovering all this so how did that play out what what happened there something about dms and uh
1:16:41
stuff like that so it became dms um you know i noticed something interesting
1:16:46
a day or two before i got the dm from 360 which is the well it started with
1:16:53
the open bribe for governance okay okay so yes it was technically the open bribe
1:16:58
but a day before that they pushed an announcement saying they wanted to speed up
1:17:04
their block times to half a second their evmos which only runs at a second and has
1:17:10
how many hundreds of transactions per block um this is echelon with you know
1:17:16
way less transactions going on they wanted to speed up their block times a half a second and i questioned it in the
1:17:23
validator channel i'm like why why do we need this everything's running fine there's zero reason to do this you're
1:17:30
telling us you want us to 10x 12x our you know bandwidth and storage and all
1:17:35
that for the same exact epoch rewards does that make any sense at all i mean we're
1:17:42
just something didn't add up and then the next day the big news of course was
1:17:47
just oh let's bribe everybody for votes um so how did that look what was the what
1:17:54
was the value proposition to uh get those votes for people who did it it was and and it wasn't just validators voting
1:18:01
it was the top something like you know the top 10 or top 20 or top 30 you know
1:18:06
it was top ranking validators sorry ac kicks um it's too loud
1:18:13
yeah basically just the richest people whoever was willing to vote yes on this was going to get just handed a bunch of
1:18:19
liquid echelon so it wasn't it wasn't based on necessarily validators right it was the
1:18:26
top 10 or 20. while it's by size that vote yes we'll get a and then liquid reward you
1:18:33
see all of these whales and big validators voting asks what is that going to do it's going to cascade out people are typically going to follow the
1:18:39
lead you know yeah um so that's right and i i said something
1:18:45
in the discord and it just it started off it just blew up from
1:18:50
there so yourself in yourself and others took issue with that rightly so
1:18:57
um because buying votes is not socially great um
1:19:02
and further to that though that so some people who did speak up about that
1:19:08
were uh you know had some private conversation as well that uh
1:19:13
sort of illuminated some people as to not being very nice right um
1:19:20
yeah so um and someone who wasn't even an echelon validator so
1:19:25
and i think a comment just popped up i'm looking at it is he in here was it was it the
1:19:31
highlander no it wasn't highlighted it was crypto crew crypto crew so
1:19:37
yep they were dming um xerox which is the founder operator of
1:19:44
echelon whatever they're you know cult leader of all of his shield accounts and
1:19:50
he said we're going to be voting no with veto on this he wasn't they're not even an echelon validator they're just an
1:19:56
osmo validator um and then all of a sudden the rest of this dm the response from zrxf were like
1:20:03
you know racial slurs um just very yeah
1:20:08
you guys know what it says i don't need to repeat it um and yeah so yes it was it was not very
1:20:15
nice things yeah yeah just some really you know [ __ ] you just don't say period
1:20:20
ever which which was later um
1:20:26
yeah yeah so those things were if you um are interested like those things were shared on twitter
1:20:32
and you can go and find them they weren't very nice um so there was quite a big backlash then
1:20:38
uh on that subject with echelon and um i think any validator that's
1:20:44
you know uh a mult like all of the i would say most of the multi-chain
1:20:50
validators for echelon ended up leaving like the the ones with um known brands
1:20:57
um ended up leaving the chain so uh and at least there was some you know fun memes
1:21:02
that became of that anyway i'm trying to find one that was that was uh yesterday and the day before and i didn't see him
1:21:10
until yesterday but i actually you know what we embraced it it's not my twitter cover photo like you know what yeah 300
1:21:16
whisper 300 let's go rama ramra didn't want us uh retweeting them
1:21:22
though he said we were doing their marketing for them yeah and we we won't retweet it but let's let's find it and
1:21:28
like just play it anyway yeah that 19 second uh 300 clip
1:21:35
yeah man so they took it down off twitter um they deleted it after we started
1:21:41
embracing it and everyone started jumping in and like making fun of it but it was echelon joker that twitter
1:21:47
account or echelon underscore joker uh so it's it it no longer exists the
1:21:53
video is that what you're telling me not on twitter yeah he deleted it all of our comments still exist i don't know if
1:21:59
anyone else shared it i had retweeted it and then deleted it later but it still wouldn't exist if he deleted the
1:22:04
original i but if you go look at my twitter today i just have yeah clip
1:22:10
uh i can i can see the screen shot out of there yeah yeah the like 12 seconds in i'll show you in chat oh man
1:22:19
i can't believe they deleted that hard work i love that you know they i know and they had like
1:22:24
three different ones but this was the best one by far when is twitter gonna be on the blockchain
1:22:30
lavender uh you know soon how yeah
1:22:36
uh well i mean i liked the i liked the one where the echelon was just sweeping away the people too that was fun the
1:22:41
validators that we're going through yeah and then at a peridot they were kind of stuck like
1:22:47
yeah say that again imperative
1:22:58
uh that's not what you said before i know you said you must have most of you guys [Applause]
1:23:03
yeah sometimes i say emotions okay it's like tomato tomato yeah well it's
1:23:09
not like room rude room fray you know like
1:23:16
what wasn't it last week everyone was trying to say like are you saying roon room like what the hell do you say you mean june
1:23:22
exactly we can do this all the way you know i i can't help but not everybody speaks english correctly yeah the issue here is
1:23:30
that the phrase coming from a point of a couple thousand years of
1:23:35
history well actually well pronunciation fun fun fact the america amer isn't it that
1:23:41
americans specifically like a lot of your pronunciation is more locked into how pronunciation was
1:23:49
in specific parts of england like 200 years ago and it's just kind of gone
1:23:56
whereas like ours is still just like times yeah yeah yeah others just still kind of like
1:24:02
you know whatever it was it's just the same old regional [ __ ] um and yeah
1:24:08
i've i have i have quite a non-descript southern accent actually as far as
1:24:13
english accents go um it's not very good
1:24:19
if you heard it if you if you heard a highlander talk well in highlands of scottish but if you heard highlander
1:24:25
talk you'd see how many different uh what the range is in the in the british
1:24:30
isles couple weeks ago right like two three weeks ago or something yeah anyways yeah
1:24:37
it's quite good so can we see this how can someone find it no that's not that's not well that's
1:24:44
a difference this is this is one there we go sorry to everybody
1:24:53
[Laughter] so for everybody in the podcast it's the
1:24:58
it's this is spider scene but it's it's got the words down the bottom this is echelon kicking a person that is just a
1:25:05
conglomerate conglomerate yeah conglomerate of uh validator icons
1:25:12
into the yeah where the exits we're the footers flooding ourselves yeah i mean overall this has to be a
1:25:18
bullish thing for cosmos right all these like you have a bunch of we're finally getting recognition
1:25:26
that all that all this other [ __ ] that's falling out of these other chains is now showing up here and now we have the same problems
1:25:34
you got to be you got to be cosmos bullish on this stuff right like i mean it means feels good we've arrived we
1:25:40
have all this [ __ ] like all this shit's happening and then i mean to the good point you have you have a lot of validators that that
1:25:46
step up and like hey i'm not doing this [ __ ] right um regardless of how easy it is or whatever else and you get this
1:25:52
pushback which is hilarious and then you get osmo like this 309 thing getting rejected is great i think it's hilarious
1:25:59
and then you have it did it fully get no with vetoed i don't know if it did or not is it 309 i don't know i misspoke
1:26:06
309
1:26:19
someone is putting a lot of effort into bringing us into you know the
1:26:24
oh yeah it's going to be a note with veto tomorrow 307 it says anybody knows
1:26:30
56.3 it's just it's just quite good that uh i mean not quite good it's a part of growing up i think as an ecosystem right
1:26:37
you get this kind of shit's going to come in this one's great what are you going to hire this meme guy
1:26:42
oh i haven't seen this one yet either nice look at jacob right in the middle i don't see where's
1:26:48
schultzy no no where's jacob on that side oh no oh this is his face
1:26:54
yeah no you just see jacob's face you don't see notions [Music]
1:27:00
[Laughter]
1:27:09
[Applause]
1:27:15
of course the lavender got there right now you've gotta love the the additional like meta of the fact that one of the
1:27:21
things charging them is the imperator logo and the imperator like
1:27:28
obviously like the the word in latin became the basis for was it was one of the additional names given to the roman
1:27:34
emperors when they transitioned from republic to empire and it's where the root of the word emperor comes from
1:27:39
right and they got that name because they [ __ ] beat the greeks including the
1:27:45
spartans and drown them down into the ground and uh yeah fun fact about the phalanx great
1:27:51
military formation really inflexible when they first encountered roman legionnaires
1:27:56
equipped with short swords they they literally like wrote about it and they were like holy [ __ ] this how
1:28:02
could anybody fight with anything so [ __ ] vicious and it's like yeah well it won so
1:28:07
so there you go yeah that's what happens and so this is the this is the one that
1:28:12
sparked it all this is the this is the og this is the one the lg
1:28:20
is there software this or somebody literally moved that little [Music]
1:28:32
[Music] i mean to be fair someone's going to a lot of effort
1:28:39
but then he deleted it you know like oh what a shame man but they're all there they're still there
1:28:44
well it looks like you deleted it earlier because he just blocked you probably probably
1:28:51
he just blocked you left all his hard work out you know at first i truly thought it was
1:28:57
a satire account but i mean honestly i went through it and i was like wow it's not
1:29:02
this makes me 100 bullish on the big mac index to be honest like this is just good stuff across the board did you know
1:29:08
bmi it's all good towards the bmi who can make that like twitter bot you know
1:29:14
the one where you do like how many to how many to buy a lambo we need the one for
1:29:19
for a telegram that's how many to buy a big mac we should totally do that like just
1:29:26
throw up a little yeah mini fun [ __ ] grant bounty bonus
1:29:32
so while we've got moultrie here as well i was actually going to rug everybody in 25 seconds um
1:29:41
um but but i was like you know we've got moultrie here we actually should also just like ask a [ __ ] question about
1:29:47
auditing rather than also just being completely generous for an entire episode
1:29:55
it's obviously very very very common for projects to need to um need to or want to get what it's done
1:30:00
before they go mainnet or sort of get out there like in your honest opinion as like
1:30:07
a professional in the space do you think that those audits by and large are either a
1:30:14
needed by the majority of projects or b actually catching major issues in production like what's your
1:30:20
experience of that yeah so we do primarily infrastructure auditing
1:30:27
but in terms of software auditing you do you have like if you think about just like rust as a
1:30:33
language right like it blocks you from making a lot of stupid errors and that's good because tons of people
1:30:39
do it like myself included in other languages and so to have like just the run of the
1:30:44
mill we're going to do an ending test will check your software based off of a few signatures you can think like clam
1:30:51
av style i think that does do a lot of good um you're not going to ever get 100
1:30:56
solution any auditors saying they have a 100 solution like your code is definitely secure it's lying and should
1:31:02
be trusted so i think there definitely is a place i'm probably biased because it's my company
1:31:08
um but it's i don't think that people should ever see that somebody got audited and think that this means it is
1:31:14
safe guaranteed so for infrastructure auditing it's a bit
1:31:20
like more ecosystem specific because like on akash you want the provider to actually provide whatever deployment you
1:31:26
want and like not drop that you don't want them to manipulate what you're running things like that
1:31:32
because akash doesn't have homomorphic encryption yet same thing with like dppn you want that
1:31:37
node to not drop your ip address etc so there's a place for it all i think
1:31:43
but not as extensive as i think people conceive it as
1:31:48
it is quite hard to decentralized run a validator
1:31:56
reliably at the moment and audited and promise
1:32:03
all of these things you know yeah to like all staking you know and i'm not trying to
1:32:09
start that whole conversation but you know offering say slash insurance but you don't have proof that you have the
1:32:16
funds or you know i mean you can go down a whole rabbit hole with
1:32:22
this yeah well i mean it doesn't drop some more drama per second in the in at the tail end the episode i guess
1:32:29
we could just say we we talked earlier about about sybils and about you know variety of other
1:32:34
things which for which the solution is social
1:32:39
consensus um uh
1:32:45
that was weird thank you no um or like about maybe delegators like
1:32:50
understanding better who they're delegating to um but obviously the other bit of drama i guess within the group that we've been
1:32:58
i guess having some debate on the value over is like the whole staking rewards thing right so i think which it felt like
1:33:04
ghost was maybe about to to mention that and that's