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Why can't anyone put a fucking Genesis out on time?

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.

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Yeah, well, nailed it. Nodes.

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A weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams. And what are we going to talk about this week now?

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Probably you, Serpa. I'm my brain's fried from not being awake, so I'm only in a question and answer today.

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The background to this is actually going to be relevant to the topic we are going to be talking about,

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which is that Evmos have just restarted. I'm not a validator and needlecasts don't validate Evmos,

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but it's just restarted, right? And it was very early your time now, right?

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Yeah, so it's two days in a row of like 2am. We had a dry run previous day on my Wednesday,

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and then the main net this morning, which is my Thursday, both at 2am. So then I had a full day

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after those, and I'm a little bit tired. I mean, actually, the dry run might have been later in

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the day, like three or four. I can't remember. The days are all becoming one.

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As they should be for a validator, why even have calendar thrilled away?

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Yeah, I mean, it's not like we need a break or something after Prox 16, 17, 18, and 19.

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Who needs rest and recreation? Yeah, I mean, to be fair as well, in that time,

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they've been what, two Stargates upgrades as well I was thinking about, in terms of just like

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chains that have Cosmos and therefore have the same security cadence, it adds up a lot of chain

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upgrades, which again, put a pin in that because we will be coming back later in the episode,

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right, Yusef? That's right. Yeah, we had a couple things to follow up on just from previous weeks.

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We want to change the format a little bit and make sure that we're responding to questions that come

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up both in Twitter and also on YouTube and make sure that we're bringing those forward on future

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episodes. We did want to talk a little bit today about some chain halts in the Cosmos because we're

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kind of seeing a lot of, I don't have a lot of halts, but maybe a lot of noise around pauses

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and things like that. So I think we'd talk about that. And we have a couple of few good

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questions for Ask Game of Nodes. We need to come up with an acronym for that, maybe Askon.

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Askon. Askon, something. Yeah, so that should be it. Yeah, cool. So we're abandoning the stupidest

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shit we've seen in Cosmos this week because we felt it was a bit too negative and we need some

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more positivity. So instead, we're going to talk a little bit about stuff that's happening

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at the moment. And to kick it off on a positive note, we obviously all talk about what music

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we're listening to. And we actually talked to, I think this was maybe off the back of the conversation

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with Shane and Cicela in the previous episode where we were asking what they listened to when

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they're working and stuff like that. And I think Whisper, sorry, Ghost was shouting out NoTaker,

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right? And that's then gone on to be rotation, I think, for the entire crew.

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It's on rotation for me all weekend. Yeah. I mean, apart from the entire playlist of NoTaker.

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Yeah. Apart from like, you know, I think there's a strong progressive rock de-gening going on

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between me and you, Serpa, but there is. And there was some, yeah. Well, I've actually been

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hitting those bands as well. I've been developing a bit of a playlist. Yeah. But you didn't notice

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the didgeridoo in the Australian progressive rock, did you? So there was another song that started off

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with didgeridoo, but I didn't notice this one that was at the end of the song. But to be fair,

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I was like listening to this while I was doing work. So I wasn't fully concentrating on it.

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Or it could have been coming from outside, right? Maybe just outside the window.

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Yeah. Yeah. People just walk around there with their, with didgeridoos.

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Pretty well. Well, I'm going to cul-de-sac. So it'd be unusual. Maybe I have on the main road.

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Just circling. You know, the thing that really shits me about Australia was just the fact that

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there are, you can just like walk into a field and that's just like a hundred wallabies.

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Okay. Like, why do we keep, it's like sheep or something, you know, like, or like, you know,

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the north of England, right? You go to the hills, there's just a field full of sheep.

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And you go to Australia and just like, there's a field full of wallabies and you're like,

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Holy shit. There's like, you just walk in there and just like with a bag and just a net or something

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and just collect, collect the fuckers up. If you, if you're so inclined, it feels like, I don't know

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how quick they are. Have you ever caught a wallaby now?

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Oh, I think he's out. He's frozen. Oh, he's frozen.

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There's a question. It's too heavy duty. I think it's, I think it's interesting that

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no matter who's on this podcast, somehow it comes back to Australian culture.

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There's always that topic. We should just put it in the topics because it's always like,

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a didgeridoo comes up or a wallaby comes up or something comes up. But that's Australian

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wildlife, not Australian. I was trying to be nice, but yeah, whatever. It's a mix of different

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Australian. Yeah. So yeah, no taker has been very heavy this week. And then I guess we want to

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also have a little bit of talk about the June upgrade that's coming right because Prop 20 is

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now happening after all those props you knew and loved, 17, 18, 19.

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So maybe to give an update for everyone who's not following this as much as we are,

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anybody want to take a shot and see what's happening now?

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You just don't want to do that.

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I mean, so I read a tweet by the whale that I was curious about. Isn't it normal for a

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binary to be assigned to an upgrade rather than kind of like the binary being

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created after it was assigned? I didn't know you could do that. I thought that they were like

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bound together one to one. No, just a tag. Just a tag. Yeah. It's just a tag.

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So the binary exists, but it is dependent on like, yeah, it has to, it will run the thing that

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it's cool. But as long as it's the same name. That's it. Well, isn't that only a Cosmoviser

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type of thing that it's calling out? There's nothing actually in the binary with that name.

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There's nothing in the binary. Yeah, you can just halt and switch over because that's what we did

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for security patches, right? Yeah. So there's no connection between the binary and the actual,

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no, it's just like you can put any binary in there. It just won't agree with everyone else.

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So it's got to be coordinated. But the only thing that the prop with the software upgrade,

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the only thing that's related to actually upgrading is the directory that you put the

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binary in with Cosmoviser. If they're using that, that's the only thing. So you can have,

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you can say that it emits the upgrade info.json, which is the output of the governance.

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Yeah. And I want to say you, you could technically like have your upgrade and in your upgrade

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proposal say you go into version three and then separately agree with all of the validators to

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go to version 28. And I guess to clarify a little bit, I think it's more snippet to me that

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the smart contract isn't actually merged yet, right? Isn't that true?

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You know, that's bullshit. Oh, is it? It's available.

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It's like it was not live for a grand total of about 10 seconds because I think I didn't have

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admin privileges on the repo in the Juno organization to make it live. And so just had to wait for

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somebody who had admin privileges to wake up because it was like, guys, this link's dead.

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We just like make the link undead, please. So yeah.

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I'm private.

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Yeah, there was, it is true that the contract wasn't

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publicly available before the prop went live. But obviously, like we wrote up a blog post about it

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and the design was the same as on the original Unity prop thread and blah, blah, blah, blah.

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So in that sense, nothing's really changed about that other than the code was written to conform to

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the Unity prop and then it was audited. And then some more unit tests have been added as well just

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after the tag that's mentioned. So in the text that's on chain, it specifically references a

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Git commit on the repo. So it's like read specifically, this is the tag and the binary and it has a

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a Wasm blob and a checksum. So the governance proposal is pretty specific about, unless there's

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a huge security hole in this that's discovered between prop and hypothetically it being launched,

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this is the one that is expected to run. Got it.

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But yeah, it wasn't public before that just because it wasn't basically. I think it was

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more of a too many cooks type situation because there are

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a lot of feelings on this one and a lot of people and a lot of noise and the difficulty of finding

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people who are just going to implement a thing because it's all open. So again, the thing with

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the Unity prop is it's just an open source smart contract. It can be used to arbitrate between

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any parties and it just kind of needs to be done and then checked over and stuff. And so it was

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just one of those things that was done. So obviously we did a lot of work on it and we were against

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the burn, right? But it is pretty clear, I think, to us at the very least and obviously Jaby who

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did a lot of the work on the upgrade side and also on the testing is also against the burn.

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But it's kind of back to, I think we were talking about this with economic incentives and whatnot

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like a few weeks ago on the show when we were talking about the original drama, which is that

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if you hold enough Juno tokens and you think they might be at risk of being confiscated,

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your optimal strategy is probably to stall, right? Because if the token goes to zero,

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you lose nothing. If you lose more, you lose nothing. You lose the same amount, you know?

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So in terms of breaking the impasse, that's kind of, I think both, I can't obviously speak for

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Jaby who is currently, I believe in the Jaby wagon, but will be joining us in a few minutes time.

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I think that was kind of both of our interest in helping out with this piece of work is that

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there are only so many devs in the Juno organization. There's only so many that

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can help to ship this particular problem. And it's kind of clear that something needs to happen.

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So even if we don't agree with all of the potential options on the table, it's kind of hard to see

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how we can move forward, you know? Right, absolutely.

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So yeah, that's anyway, that's the essence of it. And yeah, so it was one of those where all the

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devs on the project, I think in the GitHub organization could see it during the process

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it was being built, but we forgot to make it public when the first thing went on chain. So

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ultimate tease, no, we're not teasing anything. We're talking about the Unity Prop Smart Contract

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at the moment. So yeah, so that's where we're up to with that. What else needs to be covered,

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sure to see? Sorry, I interrupted you a little bit there.

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I mean, I think that's really the big thing is that Unity Prop is a software upgrade that

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basically takes the funds from the whale and puts it in the smart contract. That's the summary of it,

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essentially. I suppose I have a few questions run upgrade the next prop up to 20,

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like whether there will be more security patches in it or is it specifically for

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initiating Unity, but that's kind of neither here nor there.

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It has a RC version of a Cosmos and Change which is tagged Junity for Juno Unity,

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which is our submitted fix for the Cosmos and Pseudo bug that we found.

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But it's not a security, no, there's no security element of that. But obviously,

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we did do the security patch last week, which I think a lot of people didn't even notice we did,

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which was Cosmos and Security Bug. That's different.

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Okay. This proposal ends on the 29th. We still have a couple of days, right?

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And then I think the upgrade block is farther out, right? We're early May or something similar

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to that, if I remember doing the math. Yeah, yeah. We were also talking separately that

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obviously there's some controls here around, is that enough time obviously to do undeligations

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and those types of things? There are some questions about what might happen to anything

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that's liquid or like be rewards and those type of outstanding rewards, but that's just

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it is what it is, right? There's no controls over that and there's nothing somewhere to be able to

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do that between now by the time that upgrade block hits, which looks like it's just about a week,

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six days and 17 hours from now. Yeah. So because I mean, there's a lot of things that are going on

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with this upgrade, particularly Harry, particularly controversial, I guess.

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But the key thing is that, yeah, is essentially having enough time that we knew we could

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get everything in place to actually do the upgrade and also crucially have enough time to back out

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of the upgrade if we needed to. So something that isn't very often done as a cancel software upgrade

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proposal, which can stop an upgrade from happening, that means you can just know up it.

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And although we've obviously tested it, we're also rolling uni forward because,

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you know, obviously that's test net that should go forward before main net does.

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And so if there is something discovered on uni that is a showstopper, we need enough time to roll

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to basically stop what we're doing on main net and then move forward in a more measured way.

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Because we're running a very complicated piece of software here with the Juno chain.

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Although we've obviously tested it in a variety of different scenarios,

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it's only really when you use the kind of wireless 2020 25 validator set,

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uni test net with lots of big smart contracts on it like JunoSwap and all this kind of stuff,

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we can be 100% sure that everything is behaving as it should be.

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So that's the reason we thought we'd build it in a couple of days and obviously Roar's going live

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on the 1st of May. So we were like, well, we can't do it on the 1st of May. So we just said,

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well, three extra days, probably fine. It's not a security patch. So there isn't a particular

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reason to target a particular day. Okay. I guess we'll talk about it next week, right?

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Yeah. So I was wondering, we might do it, we might attempt an upgrade cast, right?

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Which might be the last one where some people will obviously remember when we did the upgrade

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to, well, when we restarted the chain off the cyber attack, we did a game of nodes for that.

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And then everybody got stuck processing invariance for anywhere between two hours.

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Right. Yeah.

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And this, the, go ahead, Noel.

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Sorry, actually, just on that, with our forward planning here, we have potentially,

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so two podcasts next Wednesday.

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Or we just combined. On the same day. Maybe we just do it earlier and work it around the

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upgrade block and see what time it happens. Yeah, we have potential guests next week.

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So. Oh, maybe we do it twice. Can you have too much game of nodes? I don't know.

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Probably not. I think the audience can be the judge of that one. That'd be a good poll.

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Yeah, do we have too much damage? It's four hours too much.

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Please stop and revert to one per month. Exactly. Hold what you're doing.

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And this, the contract runs, so just so I understand from a smart contract perspective,

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and the actions are going to happen when this upgrade block occurs. This will happen in the block

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after, or I guess it's buried into the upgrade itself. So does that contract run as soon as

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all the validators, we have consensus on the upgrade, everything else, then the contract executes?

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Or how does that work when it comes to when the contract initiates?

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So the contract is completely separate to the unity upgrade. Maybe that is something worth

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clarifying. Yeah. I obviously said we need to cast, did a bunch of dev work. Other people always

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see other devs and Juno contributed to all of the many parts there. Somebody needs to deploy

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the Unity smart contract. I don't know who that would be, presumably somebody in core.

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It's just a contract that gets deployed without an admin. So once it's been deployed,

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it can't be changed. And then what the Unity handler does is unsteak funds and move them into

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the control of the contract. So ideally, that would have happened consensually because what it

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essentially does, what the handler does, the upgrade handler, amongst other things, obviously,

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one of them is bump a couple of versions of things, but it bypasses the need to wait 28 days to

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unsteak and then also have those funds at risk of being sold as liquid funds. So it just makes that

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this block, I am saying the unbonding period is done. The contract. And then that's the

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balance is then held there in the smart contract. So whoever instantiates the contract is essentially

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just instantiating the contract with a representative wallet from CCN that they're known to hold.

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Because obviously this contract can actually be used for any escrow situation, which has very,

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very low trust in this situation. I guess we're talking about CCN, right? So they would be the

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admin of that contract. So not the there's an admin that allows you to migrate the contract and

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change the code. That's not what we're talking about here. There is a this smart contract has a

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concept of the owner of the funds. And the owner of the funds in this case would be CCN. Right.

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As we described in the episode previously, we did on what the Unity smart contract was and

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how my work, they basically can trigger a withdrawal with a 28 days delay to get their liquid

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funds back. And then on the other side of the coin, the community can send X amount of the funds,

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send all of the funds or burn the funds. So it is essentially the staking part of the Juno

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or the Cosmos SDK, if you like, the unbonding bit, the timer, but set to a Juno length.

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But without the without the stake, without the needing to be staked in the first place, right?

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Because from a developer's perspective, and I think from a lot of the technical people involved

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in the project, the thing that concerns us most about CCN essentially having way more voting power

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than it's having way more voting power. Sorry, here's the problem, I think for a lot of devs

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and validates, look at that as no entity should have this much power on chain. Right. So that

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solves that sort of straight away. As for the rest of it, it's a bit more complicated.

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The way that works is that there is a special entry point to the contract that can be called by

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the governance module of the SDK. So you can submit props that pass a message. If the message is

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understandable by the contract, it will run. But the contract has to exist before that prop can

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happen. And incidentally, this is also why off the top of my head, so Daes labs who are very,

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very involved in Cosmism, very lovely people, very smart, do loads of great stuff running RPCs and

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just loads of great stuff. Also Juno tools, which is a great piece of the year, heavily involved

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in that. So Daes labs, I think like Needlecast had a similar opinion of prop 19, which is that

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if the Unity smart contract existed, prop 19 could have actually been done as a Gov prop calling

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the smart contract. And sort of like the community would have had to agree to it. Essentially,

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them saying we want to be able to distribute from a Merkle drop contract to KYC people,

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which is a reasonable thing to say. If they had gone away, KYC their customers demonstrate exist.

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So using say one of the services that we as validators have had to go through for some chains,

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which are quite thorough enough for you. For example, we had to provide a whole bunch of

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documentation to prove that we were not a scam company because who's ever heard of the United

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Kingdom anyway? Yeah, American KYC. So they were just like, what are these things? And you're like,

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you know, this is like a normal business anyway, whatever. So they did KYC their clients,

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there was a big list of them. And then they went, okay, these are the addresses, these are the people

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who want a Merkle drop to we've instantiated contract, here's the contract address, they could

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then just submit a Gov prop that says send funds here or send X amount funds here. And people could

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vote on it. If it passed, boom, funds go. So this is why in short, some people who are more

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experienced with the smart contract side of things like needlecast, like desk labs, a couple of others

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said that we would have actually voted yes on prop 19, if it had come after unity prop, because

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they would have had to implement the code for it, the KYC. And then, yeah, those are real people

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fine. Like from our point of view, that's exactly this exercise. Can you take a second to clarify

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what a Merkle drop is? I've heard that thrown around quite a bit, but I don't know, is Merkle a person?

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So Merkle tree is the name of the underlying data structure, essentially that powers like Git,

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a bunch of other things, blockchains, Tom Merkle. Is it Tom? I should, other than that, he was not

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the he or they were an academic. Sure. So why is it called a Merkle drop then?

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I think it's to do with the way the, so rather than it just being like a massive boom, here's all

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the addresses, I think it's about the way that the data structure is encoded that represents the

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addresses that will be dropped to. Yeah, uses a Merkle proof to store the addresses so that it

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doesn't take up so much data on chain. Fascinating. Real-time follow up named after Ralph Merkle.

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Thanks Ralph. Thanks for saving us that sweet data.

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Yeah, went to Berkeley. What do you know?

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There you go. That's all comes through Berkeley. That's right. Yeah.

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So I've just seen this question. Does the drawer address in the own generator proposal?

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They have permission to withdraw. What's that mean? Oh, right. So this is talking about the Unity

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smart contract. Yeah. No, it doesn't generate a proposal. It's just a normal instruction to a

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smart contract. So the only entity that can interact with the smart contract via the normal

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execute endpoint is the withdrawal as they're called, which is not a very elegant name, but

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naming stuff is hard. And yeah, so that's that. That's how the Unity smart contract works. And

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like I said, we have an entire episode about this one before the smart contract had actually been

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written really, discussing how it might hypothetically work if you're interested in it.

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From a few weeks ago. Episode four, I say three, episode two, maybe two and a half.

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So we're on. We need a list of like our episodes off to the side here so we can name drop them

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for various reasons. Just to call us a few more. Which ones are which?

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Sort of. Now that we've got more than two, it's hard to remember.

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Yeah, well, yes and no. So the question, the thing that's just come up on screen is that

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those are not real people. I assume that means that refers to the clients of CCN.

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So I think the reason that we were talking about KAIC before is because like,

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I mean, we will had to do it as validators for some chains. And

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whilst not perfect, if you do KYC, it's pretty hard to actually game it effectively. It will take,

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it's a little bit like the moon landings, right? You know, like the Occam's razor as it happened,

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because if when you do statistical analysis, it turns out that in order to do the fake moon landings,

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you need nearly as many people as did the real moon landings. And they'd all have to agree to lie

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about it. So you can do a mathematical model to work out how long it would take on our

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average based on conspiracies we know about that have been revealed that somebody would blab.

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And it turns out for the moon landings, it's huge. It's like two years maximum that somebody

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would just blab on their deathbed or something like that. And some economists or mathematicians,

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they did this for a variety of conspiracy theories and then did a bunch of real conspiracy

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theories that came out like abducting people and giving them LSD and all that sort of stuff that

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did happen in the 60s and how long that took to came out, which wasn't very long spoiler.

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So with regards to there being like potentially 30,000 clients that may or may not be owed this,

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do you know, like being that they are real people and could be KYC'd Occam's razor is if you KYC

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30,000 people and they turn out to be real people, then the orchestration work to fake 30,000 people

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is much more work than just them being real people probably. And I know there's a lot of money involved,

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but quite hard to organize that and then make sure nobody blabs out of 30,000 people. So

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again, Occam's razor, I think comes into play there. I think that you just gave the longest

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winded explanation of Occam's razor I've ever heard. Like normally it's just the simplest

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solution is probably the correct one. And you really went out for it. Well, yeah, yeah, it's

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because it's because like the simplest solution is the correct one. But but also when conspiracies

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kind of thrown up, you can also say, well, look, there is also quite sophisticated mathematical

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modeling that's been done on conspiracies and whether or not they do conform to Occam's razor.

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And it turns out conspiracy theories and conspiracies are disprovable with Occam's razor for that

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reason if you care to do the maths, which obviously I'm not mathematician, but I read a very interesting

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article in The Economist about this and I'm passing it off as my own thing. We'll find that as well.

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Yeah. I mean, honestly, I thought it was really interesting. I didn't realize that so much effort

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had gone into kind of like prove the moon landing in such a way. Like if you think about you kind

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of like, if it were fake, then why didn't anybody that was like filming it say it was fake kind of

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a deal. But I didn't realize that there was actually, you know, models put to proving that it was in fact real.

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Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there's a whole bunch of there's a whole bunch of other examples of that,

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which they did like 911 and blah, blah, blah. The earth is still definitively flat though.

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Yeah, but I couldn't prove that the earth was round. At the end of the article, they're like

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there they're like, but but moon landing stuff happened and wasn't inside job, but earth flat,

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not flat. Don't know. It's a fucking dinner plate. Is climate change real though? That's I think

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that's the real question. Oh, good. I'm just going to hedge and buy some carbon credits on

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region anyway, just in case. Degen to region. Degen to region. There you go. So before

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cheap at the moment, speaking of Degen, before we move on to today's topic of the day,

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Frey, you had something in here about your Degen minute. Oh, yeah. Okay. So

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probably set a stopwatch for this because I don't want to spend more than a minute on it,

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which I can do with a smartphone, I think with the power of the stopwatch thing. So

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I'm going to give you the keys to the Lamborghini.

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That's a really old reference. Anyway, so some people will know that it's a name job,

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a name service that we've been working on for a while. It's doing a name drop, which is for the

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governance now. And we're basically been talking about when we're going to do the snapshot on the

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team who's working on that. It's a little bit separate because there's lots of people involved.

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So that's happening on May 4th. And the reason that we've said snap job and not name job is

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there's actually two different components. There's the name job, which we've already talked about,

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which is to users of the service. And there's also going to be a separate snapshot on the fourth,

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which is a more general but smaller one, I guess, which is because we are launching a project

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called howl. And they're both going to be brought together into the same project called the howl

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dial. And howl dial, I love it, with a token called howl. And that is kind of where the

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decentralized name service project is going. And that's one minute. And there will be a public

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alpha, hopefully in June. And so that is the keys to the Lamborghini section. And that's my DGN

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minute. Awesome. A minute of DGN from the fray. One minute of DGNning because we've had so,

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so, so, so, so, so many questions about the various drops and whatnot. So now I can just point people

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to this and go. So this episode and say, find the minute, guys. Maybe in the description of this,

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we can put like just one bookmark is like that. Yeah, we'll put some links in there for sure.

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DJ, that's exciting, man. That's great. Okay. So today's topic, we want to talk a little bit around,

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I think, something that came up from a little bit of previous conversation, I think, within

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the Game of Nodes extended crew. And then it came up in a couple other episodes here and there.

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And I'm sure maybe I think this might have actually started out a little bit out of price

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conversation, maybe is where this began, which I don't think we want to be able to talk about. But

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the topic came around about the number of maybe recent or 2022 chain halts. And so we've had halts

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on Juno and, you know, Ebose. And we've seen it yesterday in Akash and other types of things that

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have come up for a variety of different reasons, whether that be upgrade based or maybe something

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slightly somewhat malicious or, you know, XYZ, a bunch of different areas. And I think,

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I think that the idea was that we could have a little bit of a conversation to say,

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is this, do we think as a group in this conversation and extended, is this something that,

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is this, should we be expecting this? Is this a sign of instability? Is this really a technical

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problem or is this more of a branding problem, you know, in terms of halts? Does it actually matter?

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Is it create or reduce confidence? You know, so I think that was kind of the idea is,

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we see it and it really doesn't really affect, you know, as a validator, it doesn't really affect me

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personally. I know that there's a very complicated system. And from my perspective,

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there is a tremendous number of moving parts here, more than almost any other system that I've worked

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on that usually is built around code with a very limited number of interactions. And here,

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when you talk about, you know, more and more distributed systems with, that are global with

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the amount of interaction and it's just the amount of development that's occurring.

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And also, I think the amount of openness and really public pen testing that's occurring,

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I think it's part of that, from my perspective, it's just part of growth. But I don't know what

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you guys are all thinking about. And, you know, is it, is it just a branding problem? And should

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how should we, should we somehow address that branding problem? I think for me, it's worth

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dividing up the chain halts into like two different categories, right? It's like, you have a chain

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hall during an upgrade, and then you have a chain hall due to like some sort of exploit. I think

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those are very significantly different things. The question of a chain hall during an upgrade,

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is that a big deal? In my opinion, I don't, I don't really consider it a big deal.

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Wrangling validators like wrangling cats, especially the type of work global. And so,

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whenever a chain goes forward within, let's say, half an hour, that's like, all of us have a cyber

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leaf of like, wow, this was like the best thing ever. Whenever it takes two hours, not unexpected.

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When it takes 12 hours, a little bit more unexpected. So in my mind, when a chain

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halts during an upgrade, fine, moving on. That's okay. Whenever halts due to the exploit such as

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what halted June the last time, that's, that's something I don't, I don't know about. I think

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that's something that's inevitably going to happen. I think that there are a couple of

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attack vectors that we haven't really addressed yet for chain halting.

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Well, I guess I have a question maybe, which is that, how often do you hear about

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improved work chains halting in that style, be it from an attack vector or from any other,

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for any other reason, you know?

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So I think fact is to consider when you, when you're pondering that though, is that

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for the mobile, for in the side of Bitcoin, like Bitcoin doesn't do anything other than,

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you know, make blocks with transaction data. It doesn't have any, anything more,

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you know, that can make it more unreliable. And, but certainly for the Ethereum side of things,

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but it doesn't have finality either for like certain amount of blocks. So I think there's trade-offs

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for like, you know, that you're trading off like different things, but yeah,

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it's still worth the conversation.

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Well, so I guess my question is, if there's a chain hall on proof of work, that effectively

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means a fork, right? Whereas proof of stick, it doesn't really mean a fork because we're all

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like coordinated. So I guess that's my thought of like, well, the proof of work, it would just

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keep going one way or another. And then for proof of stake, that just means everything

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holds for a while. That's an interesting topic that I haven't quite thought about too much yet

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and can't really speak of.

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So I mean, I don't, I don't validate on any other types of networks like polka dot or

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whatever other ones are out there, Ethereum. So I really don't know if they suffer the same

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types of issues when you're, you know, getting random holds, whether it be like,

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I think a lot of, I'm not sure exactly what the cash one was because I'm not a validator on a cash,

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but I mean, we're sort of building custom, well, these, these networks are building custom

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app modules, which sort of interacts with the, the tendermint as well. So it's, it's not just

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smart contracts. It's also like a different methodology of making functionality on the

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chain. So I mean, every time you do something in that fashion, there's a chance that you

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bork something within tendermint or any of the other Cosmos SDK modules. So because it's all,

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it's a different setup. It's modularized and people can sort of mess with things on an

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individual basis. And it's got like a less, in a lot of cases, like, you know, the chain has got

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a less of a dev network around it. Whereas if you look at Ethereum or polka dot, you know,

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Ethereum's probably got thousands of devs looking at the code before it goes out.

383
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:14,480
Yeah. And I guess also they're more tolerant of forks, right? Because if you chew, if the new

384
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:23,360
software isn't adopted, then that like Schultz he was saying is a fork by default, right? But the,

385
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:34,880
I suppose like the need to coordinate is itself something of an, it has its pros and its cons,

386
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,480
right? Because it is something of an attack vector in of itself. And at the end of the day,

387
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:46,320
we're dealing with a black box of software, which the halting problem applies, right? So we don't

388
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:52,560
100% know what's going to happen with the code. I think I want to talk just a second about,

389
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,840
like, why is it that proof of work forks where proof of stake doesn't. So the reason why a

390
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,320
proof of work just basically forks instead of halts is because for proof of work, like,

391
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:12,240
it has infinitely reducing consensus basically, that can continue a chain going. So basically what

392
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:17,200
happens is let's say that half of the chain upgrades and half of the chain doesn't affect

393
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,400
like what happens is the habit chain that did upgrade, they will keep going off in their direction

394
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,800
and keep processing. And then the chain that didn't upgrade, they will also keep processing.

395
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:32,800
The problem is there, what they're doing is providing no value. And odds are that their

396
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,280
network isn't being used. And so then they have every incentive to immediately figure out what

397
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,040
went wrong and get onto the correct chain because they're not making any funds. These

398
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,360
these these computers aren't making funds anymore. Proof of stake, on the other hand,

399
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,960
you need that consensus. If that consensus isn't reached, then the chain isn't just isn't moving

400
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:59,600
forward full stop as a chain halt is. So with the proof of work model, if you don't, so say,

401
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:07,200
you know, 60% of the network or even 40% changes to a new binary. And then so it forks off,

402
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,000
like, which is how do you know which is the main fork and which is not the main fork.

403
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,840
So, so basically what happens with proof of work generally is apps will agree to switch over to

404
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:23,600
the correct fork at a given time. Right. So like, if they choose not to, that's how Ethereum classic

405
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,480
starts to exist. Right. Because people or whatever apps were like, well, I want to continue using

406
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:35,360
this. And so then clear Ethereum classic became something. So once those apps moved to the new

407
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:42,720
upgrade, that's whenever it's accepted as a new one. So is that is that proof of work in general?

408
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:49,360
Like does Ethereum currently work the same way? I don't know that it's proof of work in general.

409
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,640
That's my understanding of Ethereum specifically. Okay. Yeah. Well, it sounds like that's probably

410
00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:03,600
how Bitcoin works as well. Yeah. I think Bitcoin's like a lot, a lot more simple in terms of like,

411
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:12,000
yes, you know, functionality. We're also exposing the fact that we're not Jen, we're not really

412
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,040
protocol engineers. So it's, there's, there's a little bit of black box behavior going on here at

413
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:24,240
some level. The thing I'm really interested to read actually, which I saw appear the other day,

414
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:31,680
but I've not read yet, is a paper by Dr. Martin Kleptman about conflict resolution data types

415
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:39,280
and Byzantine fault tolerance. Using those as a foundational building block, which I very,

416
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,880
very much look forward to not understanding until I've read it four times. But I mean,

417
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,000
that's, I guess that's more about data modeling in some ways than it is about,

418
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,360
I guess, chain architecture. Although, you know, there is a question. So,

419
00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:00,800
you know, conflict resolution data types are kind of distributed systems primitive for sort of

420
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:07,760
resolving data coming from heterogeneous sources, but generally employed in a kind of trusted

421
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,600
environment. But it's, but I mean, if you, if they're sort of now writing about Byzantine fault

422
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,640
tolerance, that means that they're thinking about the application of that technology in

423
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,800
trustless environments, which I think is very interesting.

424
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,840
Is a kind of like different primitive to blocks, right? Because blocks are block hash,

425
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:35,600
next block hash. Whereas CRDTs are more, I don't know what program I was about to say,

426
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:42,800
they kind of feel like an ML type thing. But I actually don't know what programming heritage

427
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:48,400
they come from as a theory, other than a lot of people who are involved in the theory behind them

428
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:54,880
seem to have been involved in large distributed systems for, you know, the web giants, basically,

429
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,280
you know, sort of stuff like a patch capture and storm and SAMSR and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

430
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:05,120
you know, all this kinds of like streaming architecture, you know, heavily sharded,

431
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,400
web scale database type tech. So that's kind of interesting.

432
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:16,400
So bring it back, bring it back to the cosmos. Like if we get away from the POWPOS type of thing,

433
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:22,000
within within the cosmos, do you guys feel like these halts, like even the upgrade halt,

434
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,280
I think it wasn't so much like just a small halt for the, for, you know, waiting for validators to,

435
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,200
you know, build consensus around a new version or something similar to that. The Akash, when I

436
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:39,280
think the Akash issue yesterday and great, so I hope I don't ruin this, but my understanding of it

437
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:45,200
is the upgrade went fine. They understood that there was a defect in the inflation module that

438
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,520
did not show up on testnet. So they paused everything again, because the inflation was like

439
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,560
ridiculous. It was like, I don't know, somebody posted it was like 9000%.

440
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:59,920
They paused it again. And then during that pause, I'm not sure what happened, but they ended up

441
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:07,280
coming up with another defect associated to a cosmos SDK issue that had some sort of memory

442
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,640
type of problem that was in there, some sort of, some sort of incorrect point or something out of

443
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,920
memory issues, which was, I guess, a known cosmos SDK issue, but that was only within the last five

444
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,920
days, which, which means that was identified and there was already maybe a patch already there or

445
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,320
something similar to that. So they had to basically do up another kind of PR that was sitting on top

446
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:34,880
of that. And so I think that came up maybe, maybe it was at the same time as that. So as, as people

447
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,800
are restarting after this defect, then it paused again, please shut your notes down, all the kind

448
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,360
of stuff. And I think the, the outage wasn't that long. It was only, I think it was only like three

449
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,000
or four hours, if I remember correctly, maybe, maybe a little bit longer than that. And then,

450
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,960
you know, back to the Juno halt, that was purely, that's a permissionless contract structure, right?

451
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:59,200
So you, you have a lot of actors that are looking for ways to poke holes in wasm and wasm was moving

452
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,520
very quickly, right? Yeah, it's moving very quickly, right? So, so even those, you're not, not like

453
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,440
you guys are looking at, I don't, I'm not sure how far by that release goes, but I don't think

454
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,200
you're looking at releases that are six months ago that are extremely stable, right? We're looking

455
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,840
at things that are just being built because we want to take advantage of functionality.

456
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:23,200
So is that, it's worth bearing in mind, cosmoism is still not fully version one,

457
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:30,480
like it is version one, beta eight currently. What's a beta?

458
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:40,240
Beta, beta, like alpha kind of thing. Sorry. I think it's poking fun at your

459
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:47,200
annunciation. Honestly, Australian culture and UK pronunciation is all we have in the show.

460
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,320
That's it. Well, to be fair, I think, I think like if you'd asked me 15 minutes ago, 15,

461
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:58,320
15 minutes ago, 15 years ago, I probably said alpha and beta. Wait, alpha and beta, whatever.

462
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,080
It would have been closer to the American pronunciation, but I've been living in the

463
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,960
north for a long time. So everything gets sharpened. Everything's Eep, Eep, Eep, Eep, Eep,

464
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,320
Eep pronunciation. Sorry, I cut you off. Go ahead, please.

465
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,640
Yeah, I know. So I just wanted to say that the thing worth bearing in mind about cosmoism is

466
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,560
it's moving very, very quickly because a lot of this stuff is coming out as a result of

467
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:28,320
chains that are using it in the wild or audits or whatever. And it's moving fast necessarily

468
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:36,640
because it is new software that is still pre-stable in some ways. And when there is a version one,

469
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,480
that is like super gold standard, maybe that will be like an LTS or something. I mean,

470
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,560
I can't speak to their exact schedule and how they're going to, how Confio and Co are going to

471
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:49,360
actually run that. But maybe that's what they have planned, like kind of minting an LTS type

472
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:57,680
maintenance release. And then it will go from there. But the fact that there is

473
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,400
beta, alpha software and production is also part of the reason why there are so many

474
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:10,320
critical fixes coming in, I think, particularly on the cosmoism front. But it's also hard to see with

475
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:19,440
so many low-level dependencies of these projects that once you add together dependencies plus

476
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:25,200
transitive dependencies, it's a very large surface area. It's kind of hard to see how

477
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:32,720
it will slow down even when cosmoism stabilizes. So I guess my question is,

478
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:38,800
is it that we are seeing more chain halts and more of this fun stuff happening? Or is it just that

479
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,440
there are more chains in the cosmos now that are being more widely used and so it's more visible?

480
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,720
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely say that there are certainly more chains in the cosmos than the

481
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:54,640
last even six months. They've just been exploding out. But I wanted to circle back around to your

482
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,840
point that this is all beta software. That point really can't be emphasized enough. Like,

483
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:05,760
I had a meeting with Entertainment Foundation on a Thursday about entertainment accounts.

484
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,920
And they're like, you know, there's this problem where entertainment accounts, right now there isn't

485
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,880
really a good use case for them because right now, a relay would need to add a new channel for every

486
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:20,800
single account that was made interchange effectively. So right now, anytime there's a channel between

487
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,160
like, Evmos and Osmosis, there's a new channel for that. So every single user would need a new

488
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:32,080
channel. That was a Thursday. On Monday, a PR came out that fixed it. So literally in three days,

489
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:37,600
a new thing came out that resolved it that the person I had talked to, like, had assumed that we

490
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:43,360
were a long ways out from. And things like that happen a lot where, like, you go into conversation

491
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,800
and you both have the same understanding of like, okay, so this is just cool feature, but it's not

492
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:52,400
quite ready for prime time. Three days later, that prime time has been reached. And so that just,

493
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,640
as things happen like that, and since we're moving in such a breakneck pace, that's just the way it goes.

494
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,160
You know, estate, St. Wazem, like prime example, we're like that feature has been blocked,

495
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,120
that piece of work has been blocked or unfinished or still discussed for like a year.

496
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:15,200
I know Juno was talking about it when Juno went main there. And then it's kind of

497
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:21,040
poohled along a little bit here and there. And then like what they actually love about it,

498
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,840
and then like what literally last week, like Asaf was tweeting, oh yeah, no, no, no, we were pretty

499
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:33,280
much there. And you're like, oh yeah, so that one was like, that was like someone figured out that

500
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:40,480
you just, you know, sort of had a fix to manually make it work. And I think everyone just muddled

501
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,360
along with that for six months and like, ah, that'll do. And then, you know, someone, the big brain,

502
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,880
a wrinkle brain was in the background actually making it work, probably. I mean, it probably wasn't like

503
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,120
the three, you know, because I like, I kind of saw somebody was working on it and then

504
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,640
saw that the fix was announced like a few days later. So the likelihood is that it was actually

505
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,880
only announced the thing that people were working on when it was nearly done. Yeah, it probably had

506
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,320
been worked on for longer. But you know, there are a lot of things like that where you're like,

507
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,360
oh yeah, that isn't going to be ready for a while. And then somebody will be like, dude,

508
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:19,440
it was released yesterday. And you're like, what? So not only are there that, you know, the main line

509
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:28,640
is beta, specifically with Wasm, but you've also got forks of beta. So like Luna, for example,

510
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:36,800
which is like, you know, their own sort of bastardization of beta. So, well, it's pre,

511
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:43,760
it's pre version one. So it's not even one of the beta releases. It's not 16, I think, of

512
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:53,040
Cosmos. So, but I think they've sort of implemented some functionality to do with like interaction with

513
00:50:54,720 --> 00:51:04,080
1.0, right? Like it's still, I mean, like case and point, I don't know. Like I know that there are

514
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,240
a few things about their model that are fundamentally different, like migrations,

515
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:14,000
like a few other things that do not function in the same way. So I know that there are points

516
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:20,400
where the code is just incompatible. And there are obviously things, there are things that are

517
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:29,200
incompatible between beta six and beta eight of Cosmos and version one. So I think it's probably

518
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:35,760
more stable, more unstable on the Cosmos and contract side than it is on the actual chain

519
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,520
level. Like some of that stuff will be able to interact, but you won't be able to deploy a

520
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,880
contract from one to the other. If you know what I mean, you probably have to write two versions

521
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:51,200
of the same contract and then have them do sort of, you know, do like receive and stuff if you

522
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:57,760
wanted them to interact. Yeah, but just like so it has to be specifically written to interact with

523
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,720
that other contract. Yeah, I think that's my understanding is anyway, because you know,

524
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:05,840
essentially you're just, when you do, when you're messing around with that kind of stuff,

525
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:12,880
you're basically just implementing a protocol on you to do the receive and send. Well, again,

526
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,840
that's actually, again, I'm kind of going to show my ignorance here because it's actually

527
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,920
slightly different, isn't it, depending on what you're interacting with over IBC? Because if you,

528
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,600
for example, use ICS 20, you just can send it straight to the bank module of the other chain.

529
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,320
So you don't need another contract to receive from the other one, but there are examples like

530
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,400
IBC Reflect. You can have, is it IBC Reflect? I'm thinking of, I think IBC Reflect is the name

531
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,480
of the thing I'm thinking of where you can see how you can interact with a thing that's on a

532
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:45,840
different chain and maybe like those kinds of examples. Chain halts. So yeah, man, I was like,

533
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:53,280
you're getting into the weeds here, dude. Are we kind of done on chain halts? Like they happen

534
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,720
there sort of because of fast development. They tend to get fixed reasonably quickly,

535
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,960
except for in the case of Edmonds, which took a little bit longer, but I think they had some more

536
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,560
fundamental things and they didn't want to rush it. Well, they are fundamental to proof of stake as

537
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:16,880
well. I mean, I think we've always had that too, which, right, isn't it? And like, and arguably,

538
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,760
it's a flaw of proof of stake, right? Because like, like, so if we want to talk about that,

539
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,040
there's something that there's something final interesting, which is I think worth

540
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:35,200
alluding to, right? Which is that so BitTorrent worked because the way it encoded incentives

541
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:40,800
was such that you were always incentivized to send the data, right? So all the clients fundamentally

542
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,640
would send the data because the way the economic consent, well, it wasn't economic because you

543
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:50,640
didn't, insofar as you've got something back, which is, I guess, still, right? You were incentivized

544
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,120
as a client to send data to another party so that other parties would send you data, right? But it

545
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:01,360
was correct. And it was an optimistic solution to the repeated prisoners dilemma, right?

546
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,840
Those kind of incentives have been core to how all peer-to-peer stuff has worked since and they're

547
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:13,680
in code. Those ideas are also encoding to Bitcoin and to some extent to Byzantine fault tolerant

548
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:19,520
solutions like the ones that govern proof of stake, right? Back to Schultz's point with the example of,

549
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:25,120
like, these validates, these nodes upgrade, these ones don't, these ones aren't making any money,

550
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:29,600
so they are incentivized to get back onto this version. That's really, really,

551
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:36,400
really core because the way in a trustless system those incentives play out is basically

552
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:44,960
the whole ball game. And you see that there's a very, very, very strong incentive to get,

553
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:51,680
essentially trustless nodes to act in the collective interest of a decentralized chain

554
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:59,200
continuing to mint blocks. Whereas how that's done in proof of stake is entirely a social dynamic,

555
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:05,280
which is itself an interest, like that's completely different because it's not done via arbitrary,

556
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:14,160
economic belief and essentially a mathematical model. It's done via social dynamics of 100 odd

557
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:19,120
validators agreeing to do a thing. And as soon as you have something that is explicitly socially

558
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:25,760
engineered, it can be attacked. And it can be manipulated. And it has that is a built and

559
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:33,520
vulnerability system. I think that that is an interesting thing, which we see by accident

560
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:39,040
with chainhalls, right? Yeah. But it's not impossible that it could be either an attack

561
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:45,120
vector or a response to governments in the future. I think that that's, yeah, I think that's a really

562
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:50,640
great point. One thing I want to touch on that is that because it's a social vector to stop it,

563
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:56,320
that means that a lot of the difficulty with chainhalls is they often happen due to

564
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,560
poor upgrade instructions. So like they'll say, you know, generally there's only a couple steps to

565
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:10,560
like do an upgrade. You check out the new branch, you install it, you move it by now or you restart,

566
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:17,280
right? These are the four steps. Now, sometimes you'll see like do an unsafe reset mid step,

567
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,480
and then this will happen with EdMos. This is when four or five validators

568
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,720
tombstone themselves, and then we have to roll back. Those upgrade instructions, someone that

569
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:34,240
writes good upgrade instructions is worth their worth, like, and they're worth basically infinite

570
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:39,520
value because they're keeping the chain going, right? There have been multiple chains where

571
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,640
like I'll go in, I'll start doing the upgrade, and I'm like, okay, so this is literally,

572
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,600
this is literally going to stop the entire chain, and I'll like put a small PR in that says,

573
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,200
well, we should do this instead. And then let's say I'd be like, oh, right, crap.

574
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,040
I don't mean to my own horn here, just the importance of like really good documentation

575
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,640
is just at the utmost importance. And because it's the social construct that you're talking about,

576
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:08,400
incredibly important. That's not even, that's not even like necessarily just for an upgrade

577
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:14,240
shield. So you like sometimes there's just chaff in the, in the installation instructions, or

578
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:19,280
it's just missing information, or there's like duplicate information, which conflict with each

579
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:24,080
other in the same document, because just care and attention hasn't been put into the,

580
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:30,080
the instructions, like I can't remember what chain it was, but the other day, I think it might have

581
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:36,240
only been a testnet to be fair, but I was trying to, like I was just going through their instructions

582
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:41,680
to look at it while I was booting up their testnet and see if there's anything different to the norm.

583
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:50,400
And I was a bit baffled by the service document for system D, because it had like

584
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:59,840
environment variables for cosmos in there. Sorry for a cosmovisor. And, but it wasn't for cosmovisor.

585
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:07,680
So it's, you know, people sometimes just copy, paste stuff and then don't even pick up these types

586
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:14,160
of things, which I don't know if it's because, you know, why, but it's not attention to detail

587
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:20,000
that they're putting into it anyway, or they don't know. I'm not sure. But anyway, paste for the

588
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:26,000
validators and the people who are, you know, involved with these networks to definitely review DOCS,

589
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:31,760
put some brain power into it when you're reading it instead of just blindly copy, pasting stuff

590
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,800
and submit PRs to fix stuff because it affects everybody and your responsibility as a validator.

591
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,560
Yeah. I do think that overall the documentation is getting better, though. I think there's a

592
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,320
lot of copy pasta going on across different chains. Like I think people still go back to

593
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:49,760
DOCS.Juno network or whatever it is and pull out of stuff that you've built and all and others.

594
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,880
And I still see a lot of that showing up everywhere.

595
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,920
Well, I think Meow wrote... Stargaze came after.

596
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:05,840
Either Meow or Jay Hernandez wrote some particularly good DOCS for one of the Stargaze test

597
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:14,080
nets. Yeah. Juno DOCS for the first Juno test net came out of that. And then they've just gradually

598
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:19,200
been shipped away out since then. So I think the Juno DOCS being good, you can trace back to the

599
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:24,160
Stargaze DOCS being good. Wow. In other words, you don't get that credit.

600
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:33,520
You bring a lot of delegations. Well, I think the phrase also done a lot of work on those DOCS as

601
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,360
well. Like we sort of chip away at them, I think, when either of us get time and update them and

602
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:47,680
fix them. And I don't know, rearrange those a lot out of the phrase. Certainly, I'm not sure if

603
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:57,360
you're referring to the actual setup DOCS that are actually in the GitHub or the actual DOCS.Juno

604
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,680
network.io. The good book stuff. Yeah, the good book stuff I think has shown up other places.

605
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:07,920
I see that being pasted around a little bit. And some chains, I think some chains also try to

606
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:15,040
for better or for worse, this is not an opinion, just of what I've seen. I think other chains also

607
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:21,280
give very little information on documentation to try to weed out validators that might not know

608
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:27,520
exactly what's there. Like I don't need the DOCS, all I need, give me a genesis and a binary.

609
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:33,520
What version are you running? What's a chain ID? That's all I need, right? And maybe a peer or

610
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,720
maybe a seed or something else are standing up a seed or something similar to that. But

611
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:43,200
and then you can see, you get kind of a different variety of validators that get

612
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,400
involved depending on the quality of that DOCS. And I don't think that's necessarily a good thing

613
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,680
or a bad thing. I'm just saying it might be different based on projects, based on what the

614
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:55,120
project's trying to do. And I can understand that, right? Yeah, so like, incentivize test

615
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,520
net that might be like test one, can the validators actually stand up a validator without

616
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,400
replacing their way to glory? Right. Yeah. And then I think some of those, you know, we see in

617
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:08,400
some of these other types of chains, which is just how fast can I write a script to spam the

618
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,520
faucet? Like that stuff, like, who are we benefiting with this crap? Right? That's a different thing.

619
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,480
But somehow we got off the idea of chainhults. But that's, yeah, back to documentation.

620
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:23,200
I mean, close up the, go ahead. Sorry, I was just saying, it is interesting as well, just in the

621
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:30,000
last year, how I mean, and certainly I remember like this time last year, it was, you know, a test

622
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:36,960
net was launching with spaces in the, you know, incentivize test nets were launching with spaces

623
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,240
in the test net set, because you could not get enough people, even with documentation, you could

624
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:49,520
quite readily pasta, you know, your way to glory as null put it. Whereas like now, you know, you

625
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:55,280
can you see some test nets, which get like 1000 Gen TXs or whatever. So again, it's just another

626
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,800
thing when we're talking about how, you know, how things are moving fast and how things are

627
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,800
falling over and all this stuff, you know, it's worth remembering that they were like, what seven

628
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:09,920
live chains in cosmos at that point, right? It's like 20 now. I mean, I joined secret because they

629
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:15,360
couldn't get enough people to validate for it. When I joined, there was like 40 of us. And then

630
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:20,400
there was another month or two before they ended up hitting 50 and that was back in, I don't know,

631
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:25,120
mid last year sometime. So if these have moved quick, as soon as the chain comes up, it's already

632
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:32,080
it's already a max every time now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and it's the floor is lava thing we talk

633
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:40,160
about a lot. The lava comes up fast. So I have a couple of other things to add in just randomly. So

634
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:48,320
weeding out, you know, poor or, you know, validators who don't particularly know what they're doing.

635
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:56,560
I suspect that sometimes people put the wrong instructions into a set up on a test net on

636
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:07,760
purpose and actually, you know, make purposeful mistakes to see like, you know, either to make

637
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:13,280
sure that people are helping people or to, you know, weed out people who don't know what they're

638
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:20,160
doing. But the other thing is like something I noticed for Stargaze, you're mentioning the

639
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:28,720
phrase that during that, some of those test nets, like they were putting bonuses like into

640
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:36,880
upgrade code, I think it was then and if you like picked it up by actually reviewing the code

641
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:43,040
before you just blindly run it. Yeah, it said don't run this upgrade. If you read this, yeah,

642
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:50,080
like, if you read this, don't do the upgrade out to Jay, I think. And I think nobody spotted it

643
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,920
either. Was that in the contract when they, oh, when they did the contract reviews before they

644
01:03:53,920 --> 01:04:02,000
published before they govern in the, no, early test net, there was like an upgrade. And in the

645
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:08,240
in the upgrade handler was a no op and it said something like, if you read this line privately

646
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:13,440
contact Jay Hernandez, and if this happened in the real world, don't ask the code. Right.

647
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:19,520
And I think maybe nobody did that they were, I think one person did one person did.

648
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,960
Yeah, I mean, I don't remember who it was. I think consensus was definitely reached on that

649
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:31,120
handler, as in it, the handler got 67% or whatever. And so everybody got a little bit of the riot

650
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:40,160
attack reading to them. That's cool. I think we are, I think we are and Jay, we're like,

651
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,160
you know, had a little bit of fun throwing Easter eggs and stuff all over the place in

652
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,160
those test nets. I don't think it was just that one thing. I think they did like a couple of things.

653
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,320
To sort of, you know, see if people are awake or not. And some of us were not like,

654
01:04:54,320 --> 01:05:02,080
I guess it was like, it depends, it depends like what, at what point of June is first few months

655
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:07,040
that was as to whether or not I would have been awake at that point versus very much not awake

656
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:14,800
and trying to be like, what is all this SDK shit? Which was definitely where I was last June.

657
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:21,680
It's been like, the hands up. It's just a lot of it. Like if you're trying to stupidly eat the

658
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,640
elephant and do the SDK and Cosmos and everything at once because you need to write documentation

659
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,960
and actually write code and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's a lot of it.

660
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:37,200
So we have some questions and ask game of notes. Should we deal with them before we wrap up?

661
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:44,560
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. So the first one, no, would you like to take this one?

662
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:51,600
Yeah, I'm not looking at the. Okay, well, I'm on my laptop. So the question we have on this

663
01:05:51,600 --> 01:06:00,080
is this is ask game of notes. Why do validators dump? Why do validators dump? That is the question

664
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:06,480
for you now. Well, I'll start out on that because I've been called out for selling rewards as well.

665
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:12,480
So I think a lot of people get some heat at some point in their career for selling rewards.

666
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:18,400
So I think what the general public need to realize in some instances, like,

667
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:25,040
you know, our company is a for profit company. I think a lot of them are. But also,

668
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:31,600
we're running businesses and a lot of us aren't just anonymous people. We have companies and we

669
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:37,120
have tax to pay. And we have to think about the long term viability of the companies. We have to

670
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:44,480
have, you know, war chests for potential legal issues. We have to be able to cover, you know,

671
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:49,200
our server costs so that we make sure that we're running for the long term. So, you know, we could

672
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:54,880
be coming in right now to a lull in the market and who knows how long that'll last. And even

673
01:06:54,880 --> 01:07:02,640
people are a long way up the the validator list. Their incomes are going to, you know,

674
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:10,400
evaporate pretty quickly. And certainly, I think when the when the price is a lot of validators

675
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:15,120
want to try not to sell as well. So it makes more sense to sell them while they're high.

676
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:20,320
And whether that's high going up or high coming down, like, you don't know where the high is or

677
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:29,040
where the lows might be. So I think in our case, we have other bags that we just constantly compound.

678
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:35,280
But it's more or less our policy that when the prices are rising to sell rewards.

679
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:40,080
And then when the prices are on the way down, we sort of sell them to a point that we think it's,

680
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,520
you know, diminishing returns and that it's actually hurting the market. And then we sort

681
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:51,360
of stop. And then we just roll them back into the validators or add them to the other wallets.

682
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:57,840
And then just keep compounding and hope for, you know, heydays again, nice sunny days and

683
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:02,880
you make our bails and then, you know, try and save it up for the bad days. But I guess as a

684
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:09,600
business, the long term goal is to be able to provide your service, rain, hail or shine,

685
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:15,520
and be able to cover any, you know, costs that might come up in the meantime, whether it be,

686
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:24,320
you know, unforeseen hardware or labor or, you know, legal expenses or anything like that.

687
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:31,040
You don't just run on a shoestring in the hope that everything will be okay. And then you don't

688
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:37,920
want to be forced to sell stuff when the price is really low. And it works different for tax in

689
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:45,120
different countries as well. Like I know the way our company taxes is incredibly different to a lot

690
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:51,760
of the ways like I think in the UK, the company taxes fundamentally different to how we operate.

691
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:56,880
And again, completely different in the US. And whether you're an individual or a company,

692
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:03,360
like each validator has their own set of circumstances. So I think we're quite fortunate

693
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:10,960
here where we actually benefit a lot when the prices go down, because it reduces our tax bill

694
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:20,000
overall if the end of financial year coincides with the low market. But, you know, that hurts a lot

695
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,560
of other validators because of their tax laws. They might be incurring

696
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:32,720
tax liability during the year. And if they don't sell their rewards or at least half of them to

697
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:37,360
cover that tax, they're actually, they're making income tax liability, which means that if the

698
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:42,640
token price goes down, their liability doesn't go down. They still owe tax on those high prices.

699
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:48,080
So to summarize that point for somebody who's not an expert in tax. So if you

700
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:54,800
work in this space for any other time, and certainly one of the core skills of a validator

701
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:59,120
is learning about the tax law and your jurisdiction, because it will determine whether or not you

702
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:05,920
go bust in your first year or not by accident. In a lot of jurisdictions, the second you claim

703
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:14,400
rewards, you owe taxes straight away. So if not everyone, but it's relatively common that something

704
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:23,200
like that happens, something is owed. So if you then restake those or do something different with

705
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:29,040
them that doesn't involve turning them into dollars or pounds or euro or yen, you might end up in the

706
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,720
situation at the end of the year when the government comes knocking for more money than you have,

707
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:37,120
and then you are bankrupt as a business. And that means you can't run a business for the next

708
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:41,280
five years, which would be very bad. So there's a whole bunch of things going on there. So

709
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:50,000
quite often, when you see validators dumping in any way, shape or form, it's because of,

710
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:56,000
it's kind of a function of that sort of thing, which is as Noel was sort of alluding to, if you

711
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:01,920
anticipate the market is to some extent volatile, and you don't want to be not supporting the market.

712
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:11,920
So validators have more tokens rewards as a set than your average sort of user of the network.

713
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:16,240
So what you ideally want is when there's an economic downturn, you want the validator set to

714
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:24,480
compound, not sell, because that provides price support. And it also signals it's an economic

715
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:30,000
incentive that there's strength in the network, right? And so in order to do that, you have to

716
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:36,000
make sure that you're covering whatever the value of those would be in the downturn when the times

717
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,960
are good. Like Noel said, on the way up or the way down, it doesn't really matter which.

718
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:48,480
So that or both. Yeah. Which is why you see a lot of people, both investors and engineers,

719
01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:53,840
validators, whatnot, people who get paid in crypto cash it out on the day they get it,

720
01:11:53,840 --> 01:12:00,560
or immediately restake it. It's the same phenomenon at play. And just for folks in the US, so in the

721
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:07,040
US, which might be the same elsewhere as well, I'm guessing it is. But for us, when we pull those

722
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:14,320
rewards, we are treating those rewards as income, and the commissions as income at the time, and

723
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:20,240
also at the price when that happens. So like what Noel was saying before is, if I have a slide like

724
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:28,080
we're dealing with right now, where Juneau has gone from $45 to $13 and a half dollars over this

725
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:36,960
time, I'm paying income tax on a coin at $45 at that time that I earned that amount, which was only

726
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:43,440
a few months ago. And so that is income at that amount. But the current value is $13. And when

727
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:47,120
I if I do sell that, sell that at some point in the future, then I can deal with capital gains,

728
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:51,200
which could be a loss or it could be a gain or whatever they'll say is. But it's extremely,

729
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:58,320
there's a lot of high risk for a validator in terms of the effect of price on if this business

730
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:02,640
makes sense or not. Because for things like this, when you're dealing with income that's coming in

731
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:08,480
with that way, it could be extremely, extremely negative associated to that, right? That's point

732
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:15,040
one. But one other point on this is that of the mint, so let's focus on Chihuahua, because Chihuahua

733
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,720
I think has been there's been a lot of talk around validators dumping on Chihuahua and those types

734
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:25,520
of things, which, which, and that's the reason that's driven down to 0.0003 cents from whatever

735
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:31,840
it was of the total mint that's occurring, right? Validator commissions, I think when I look across

736
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:36,240
the commission structure on all these fit out validators, I would say probably the there's a

737
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:42,000
lot at 5%, a little bit, a couple of 10 or 9% in terms of commission, right? So if we if we average

738
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:47,520
it out at 6% and say of the total mint that's occurring in the total total increase in terms

739
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:53,840
of coin, 6% is going to validators. If all those validators are dumping, from my understanding,

740
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:59,680
if I'm correct here, that over a period of time, 6% is going to validators, if validators are dumping,

741
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:08,640
there's still 94% of mint that's occurring, right? So something to piggyback on that is that

742
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:13,280
there's a lot of accounts that people don't see because they're not validators, right? So,

743
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:19,760
sure. You know, from that, from that drop, there's no, there's no cap in that airdrop on

744
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:28,000
Chihuahua. And there are wallets with hundreds and hundreds of millions of Chihuahua that are getting

745
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:34,240
the full reward, and they're getting more rewards than the top validator. And there's more than one

746
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:40,240
of those wallets. And then a lot of them are just selling the entire time that Chihuahua has been

747
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:49,200
which way I was being live. So the validators, they validate is selling on that network is,

748
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:56,400
like you say, a small percentage of what is actually being sold. But the thing is that people can

749
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:03,920
see the validators, right? Right. They can click on, they can click on King Nodes or Rhino or Lavender

750
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:09,120
or Bloody Needle Cast, and they can go to their public wallet. And they can see that these guys

751
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:13,280
sold and we're hurting at the moment because the price is down. We're going to get on Twitter and

752
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:19,920
flame the shit out of them. Right. And if you want to do them, fine. But yeah, just know that it

753
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:24,480
hurts those validators. I mean, look at the top 10. I mean, even the self-bonded percentage, and

754
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:28,800
even self-bonded is not really a good metric here because sometimes validators might have personal

755
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:33,600
wallets as well as wallets as well as a validator wallet, right? But nobody uses the validator wallet.

756
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:38,320
But like King Nodes, the most staking percent is like the biggest red herring imaginable because

757
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:47,280
everybody, the only time that is ever accurate is if you didn't incentivize Testnet and they say,

758
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:52,240
oh, whatever you used for that one is what we're going to airdrop to no exceptions. And so you end

759
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:59,680
up with your validator address just having all the locked tokens, whatever they're locked for 10

760
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,720
years, 12 years, whatever. Right. In almost every other situation, I don't know about you guys, but

761
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:11,520
certainly we as a business have, it goes straight in a cold key and goes into a bank vault. And we

762
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:18,640
never touch it basically, especially if you've invested long term. I would say that I have the

763
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:24,640
highest, and I haven't checked, but I would say that I have the highest self-stake in Chihuahua, I think.

764
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:29,200
No, no, no. I'll throw it down. No, you don't. No, you don't. Come on.

765
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:34,720
You dare, Reagan? I have more than you, and I'm 42 on this list. Yeah. I think...

766
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,880
When I say self-stake, I mean like my wallet is...

767
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:40,320
All your personal bags.

768
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:47,360
No, no, no. My validator wallet is staking 45 million, I think. I've been turning the rewards

769
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,880
back in, but it's not necessarily self-stake to my validator because I...

770
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:52,880
Oh, you're right. My bad.

771
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,360
You're right. I stake all the way down as well.

772
01:16:55,360 --> 01:17:00,640
You're right. That's correct. You are better... See, this is a good example of the right thing to do.

773
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:09,360
You have 50 million Chihuahua that's in there and 20 to you and another 30 to others across the group.

774
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:16,080
That's noble. Provalidator has 10 total Chihuahua stake.

775
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:16,880
Yeah, it looks like...

776
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:17,280
Yeah, two.

777
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:24,720
Out of top 10, you are... It's no contest. You are obviously the number one in there.

778
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:26,080
Maybe even the top 20.

779
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:30,560
But I think the point of this question and why do they dump...

780
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,280
I think I asked this question when this came up. I forget who was

781
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:41,680
shitposting on Twitter about this topic, but so many. I can't keep track. But the idea is like

782
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:47,280
there has to be some rewards taken to be able to pay for what's going on.

783
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:51,680
Running these services are not cheap. Whether that is cloud-based services or

784
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:56,800
all you do from a colo in a mix of cloud or... They're not cheap.

785
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:02,320
I think that's come up, especially if you make bad decisions like using AWS for all your hosting,

786
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:02,720
things like that.

787
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:09,440
I was wondering how long my storage choices were going to take to come up.

788
01:18:09,440 --> 01:18:14,240
An hour and 20, I guess. But they're not cheap.

789
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:20,880
I think Todd from BlockPlan just called this out as well, which folks who are listening to this,

790
01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:25,040
you have attorney's fees, you have hosting, you have payroll, you might have accountants,

791
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:28,000
you have taxes, you have insurance, it's a business, right?

792
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:28,480
I'm really glad you did.

793
01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:34,560
And so that overhead is... Sorry, but say it one more time. There you go.

794
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:39,920
So that overhead is not insignificant. And when you start adding these types of things up and

795
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:43,920
being able to pay yourself or you have a small team or other types of things or outside consultancy,

796
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:48,800
you might be able to use for media or other types of things, there's a significant amount there.

797
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:55,040
So when something like Chihuahua dumps from.008, I think is what it was, if I remember,

798
01:18:55,040 --> 01:19:02,640
to literally 4% of that, yeah, you're going to see a ton of dumping because those bills

799
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:05,760
are not going away. Those bills don't scale based on what the price is.

800
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:12,480
The taxes of what is coming from income from six months ago, we're still paying for, right?

801
01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:17,440
So those types of things, I think, are important components that I think everybody,

802
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:23,840
or some folks, I think, miss. And it's an important piece. So I think it's difficult to look at just

803
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,080
a one wallet or look at a validator or look something on one chain and say, oh, this person

804
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,800
is what's driving that cost down. I would think any validator, even all validators dumping,

805
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:38,240
would not have a huge impact on price compared to what's going on from a commission perspective.

806
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:44,720
There's one thing I want to add here. I think as far as your validators concerned,

807
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:50,000
you want them to be selling basically weekly, maybe even more frequently, because that means

808
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:54,960
it's very relatively small amounts that are constant. Whereas if they're building up for

809
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:59,440
two months and they dump it all in one stretch, that's going to dump the price for a moment and

810
01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:04,000
might recover mostly, but it's going to have a noticeable effect. I've seen this several times

811
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,840
on secret where it's coming for some reason over there for people to hold it for a long time and

812
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:14,560
then to do one huge sell where you can see because they're not selling, they're selling on the market.

813
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:19,040
So if you're validators selling, you know, pulling, let's say every Monday, selling that Monday,

814
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,480
and they keep doing that every week, it's basically just going to remain

815
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:31,440
in this constant pressure versus one huge event. You want that reliable system rather than a big

816
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:38,080
event to occur. Yeah. From a validator perspective, that's tough to do because I think Nall said

817
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:42,880
this earlier, like when prices are going down, man, I'm holding onto this stuff because

818
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:50,000
it's just painful to be able to sell. Stargazing example of that, I think that is so incredibly

819
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:55,760
undervalued. Even getting rid of any of that seems horrible. That's not a mistake. I'm going to

820
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:00,240
ask. That's not investment advice. I know, right? I know. It's a horrible approach to it, isn't it?

821
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:04,320
It's a horrible approach. Don't listen to me. That's a bad advice. You should. So, but I think,

822
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:08,560
I think in others, I think some of you guys are much more, like you said, Schultz is much more

823
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,160
structured around that, which is, I don't care. I'm not going to look at the price. I'm converting

824
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:16,960
it at this date. And so every Sunday, I'm going to do it and whatever it is it is. I think that's

825
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:21,360
probably a much smarter way of being able to think about it over the long term. I think some

826
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:27,920
people's strategy is to just look at what I do and do the same thing. That's my hope. I know

827
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:33,680
at least a couple of people that what Nall does filters down. That's the Rhino tagline.

828
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:44,480
But you go back to Blockpain's comment that you highlighted a minute ago as well. I think

829
01:21:44,480 --> 01:21:48,240
there's one final thing about that that's worth drawing out, which I think people don't often

830
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:53,680
think about, which is in amongst the obvious things the hosting and the less obvious, the

831
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:58,720
legal fees and insurance. Like, damn, nobody thinks about insurance, but that shit is expensive.

832
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:07,520
There was also like, maybe employee benefits and more of a US thing, because health insurance,

833
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:16,240
whatnot. But payroll is, engineers are really expensive and convincing people to come and work

834
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:25,680
in crypto is really hard because, so to give you an idea, like my previous life, I worked as a team

835
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:32,080
lead, managed teams still wrote code, but did a lot of hiring and whatnot. And for a big engineering

836
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:37,840
department, 60 people, 80 people, you're backfilling like a quarter of your department at almost all

837
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:43,200
times with contractors because you can't hire enough people. And you're paying above market,

838
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:47,920
you're doing everything you can to hire. And you would have four or five senior engineers,

839
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:55,040
principal engineers doing two to four hours of recruitment a week, like calls, first interview,

840
01:22:55,040 --> 01:23:02,480
second interviews, tech tests, reviewing tech tests to hire nine people a year. When you're a

841
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:10,320
validator and you're doing this as independence, that stability of not only saying we are a stable

842
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:15,680
enough operation with stable enough income streams that you can trust us to pay your salary next month

843
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:23,200
is super, super, super hard. And you have to be credible as somebody who could say that with

844
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:28,560
a straight face and convince somebody to leave what may be a very stable situation for them

845
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:34,000
to come and work in this space. And I think all of us have had the situation where we've looked

846
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:39,040
at our cash flow for the next year. And for some of us, the tax year is ending now. So you start to

847
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:44,400
do projections for the next year. And you go, okay, well, can we bring more people into the

848
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:49,600
operation for, you know, there are other projects, there are, there is a lot of stuff involved in

849
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:55,280
running a validator, maybe there are more chains that you want to move into and or teams that want

850
01:23:55,280 --> 01:24:02,880
you to help out with X, Y or Z. And that thing where I think a lot of independent validators

851
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:09,680
basically do everything with one, two, three people tops, maybe the odd contract hour here and

852
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:15,520
there from people they know that will do the odd bit of contract work. But they're running on quite

853
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:21,840
a shoestring in terms of development hours, you know, or, or any hours, right, infrastructure

854
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:25,520
monitoring this that I mean, I think that's one of the other reasons that way, I think this

855
01:24:26,480 --> 01:24:31,520
GON started, which was, which was just validators helping out because whether that is being able

856
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:37,360
to be informed about something or snapshots or helping with this or I need a snapshot. Somebody

857
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:42,800
helped me with X, Y, Z, right? Like, yeah, it's very difficult as a small kind of, I guess,

858
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:48,160
business owner, if you want to say that, to be able to do it all yourself or even with a small

859
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:55,280
team because it truly takes more than that, right? Well, I think from memory, the original thing that

860
01:24:55,280 --> 01:25:00,720
we all started chatting about was letting each other know when our nodes were down, right? Because

861
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:06,880
sometimes you screw up, you know, especially before we all got onto block panes, tender duty,

862
01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:12,480
some of the stuff, I mean, particularly Grafana, I'm looking at you like was quite flaky in terms of

863
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:18,320
actual good uptime notifications. I'm slowly changing everyone to Zebix.

864
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:25,040
I have a double tap notification system now where I have my own homebrew one and the other stuff,

865
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:31,360
so that I get two. If I know if two happen, then it's real, it's 100% real, it's on.

866
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:37,360
That's how paranoid I am. But like that was how I think this conversation started happening, which

867
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:42,400
was, you know, yeah, essentially having snapshots and things to recover and also because we were

868
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:48,720
already talking to each other, going, dude, your notes down. But we found the communities

869
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:53,120
that sort of help us out with that. But like, I think all of us, you know, look into the future

870
01:25:53,120 --> 01:26:00,000
and go like, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of keen young interns or whatever, you know?

871
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:04,800
And that's a kind of part of the, you know, like

872
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:10,880
when you talk about building tech organizations, like we're obviously

873
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:15,760
unrelated organizations or the validators, but there is like, you know, there's a social set

874
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:20,480
of everybody. And everybody is trying to professionalize to a lesser or greater extent

875
01:26:20,480 --> 01:26:25,040
or at least stabilize their operations. And that's like very common in all organizational growth.

876
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:30,320
You have sort of like a pioneer period, then you have like, town planners come in and then you

877
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:35,040
build a city there. And then that's a stable technology. And we're like way off in the

878
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:40,320
wild, wild West, where we're still pioneering. And all of us are just trying to work out a way

879
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:44,240
of getting to the point that we can actually start like putting a well down

880
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:49,280
or whatever it is you guys did out West in America. And to be fair, I guess,

881
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:52,880
rather than recently in Australia, at least in terms of putting in,

882
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:56,400
you know, more modern infrastructure.

883
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:05,920
That's right. Hey, our internet can get a solid 50 megabits per second on a good day

884
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:12,560
with fiber, which is honestly, which is amazing. It's incredible. When you actually think about

885
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:16,320
the global component of that, like if you actually think about how much data is being moved there

886
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:26,480
and the location and like it's, I mean, it's maybe maybe it's my age showing. That's fascinating me.

887
01:27:26,480 --> 01:27:30,160
It's very carried on camel across the desert. Yeah, I used to live in Chicago. I remember

888
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:34,720
having a single and dual. I remember going from single channel ISDN to dual channel ISDN,

889
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:40,560
thinking that was unbelievable at 256k a second, right? Like I remember those days of like actually

890
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,800
getting when the phone rang, you went from 256 to 128. I was like, shit, somebody called me. I'm

891
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:51,200
losing like downloads and those types of things or even 300. I go way back. Yeah, call way. We

892
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:55,280
fuck up. Exactly. That used to happen. Yeah, you see, I do that. I forget what the star number was.

893
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:58,400
It was 56k to bro bomb was like a revelation, wasn't it?

894
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:08,160
56k to ISDN was because I remember moving from 300 to 1200 to 24 to 196 to 56k to then to ISDN.

895
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:12,960
And then the first time I actually was on broadband, it was like, it was unbelievable.

896
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:16,320
I remember having a T1 in the office. I thought that was incredible. I think I jumped straight

897
01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:21,920
from 56k to broadband. So it was just like, it was like, can't load a page to like light speed.

898
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:26,960
And I don't think I've ever, it's never been that much of a jump.

899
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,520
She'll see it. She'll see it. No idea what the fuck I'm talking about right now.

900
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,960
Oh, I know what you're talking about. Okay. I mean, the irony here is that like,

901
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:37,040
I think that a lot of torrenty came about because they needed some sort of technology for like,

902
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:41,120
how do you continue download over it ends, right? And so now we're kind of coming from a circle

903
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:45,280
that where blockchain is basically, it's basically torrenting really. If like,

904
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:47,840
if you want to extrapolate it far enough out, that's basically what it is.

905
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:53,360
And so now we're using it in some sort of global scale to resolve something that we thought was

906
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:58,640
resolved 20 years ago. And so while there recently becomes a long that makes the blockchain

907
01:28:59,440 --> 01:29:02,160
redundant again, I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. We'll see.

908
01:29:03,440 --> 01:29:08,800
Yeah. And Roman just talked about Starlink as well. Starlink, like just watching that kind of go

909
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:13,360
where it's going has also been pretty amazing. Like that, that type of technology then opens up to

910
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:17,600
say, where do I want to live? Right. And then other types of things that are important to me,

911
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:23,120
which is unfortunately bandwidth is important to me. But having some stable bandwidth and those

912
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:26,160
types of things, that means you'd be able to open up anywhere you want to live. And you put

913
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:30,480
middle of Montana with a, you know, 200 megabit. What the heck, man, it's crazy.

914
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:37,760
So I have two things that particularly around Australia, one thing is that our population

915
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:45,840
density isn't very big and our country is incredibly fucking huge. So the cost of our network is

916
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:52,800
enormous per capita. Right. And which makes our internet not as cheap as it could be. But I think

917
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:58,560
like, you know, the government's just taken a pretty big L on that because our broadband

918
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:03,440
networks owned by the government here because no private company in their right mind had built it

919
01:30:03,440 --> 01:30:10,320
because they would never be able to profit from it. But I think one day our publicly owned network

920
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:16,080
will probably get privatized out of discount. So someone can profit off it at some point.

921
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:22,160
Yeah, that's kind of the way, isn't it? Yeah, someone makes the money at the end of the day,

922
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:28,400
who's probably buying an official lunches right now to get in their pocket. Anyway,

923
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:35,920
right. So on Starlink, I just pulled a Starlink out of the box yesterday

924
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:46,240
and plugged it in business Starlink. And my God, I was just astonished. So latency isn't that good,

925
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:51,840
obviously, but it's better than a normal satellite by a long shot. So I had like,

926
01:30:51,840 --> 01:31:00,000
this is in Armadale in New South Wales. It's in the middle of nowhere. And I had just sitting on

927
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:09,760
top of my car with the satellite dish, a latency of 40, a download speed of 220 megabits and an

928
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:17,360
upload of about 25 megabits at that point. And it was cloudy. 40 milliseconds to where?

929
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:26,480
So that was from a SpaceX point, I think, to the speed test on the phone.

930
01:31:26,480 --> 01:31:33,040
So I think that that demarks back to somewhere within Australia, right? It doesn't like automatically

931
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:39,920
demark to California or something like that, right? Well, it probably, so they go to the lowest

932
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:45,120
latency public server, but it would have been on the surface, but probably in America somewhere.

933
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:54,000
Yeah, would have been the endpoint from SpaceX. But I mean, it's it doesn't particularly matter

934
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:59,040
so much. I don't think where the point is because they've got stations all over the world. But in

935
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:03,120
terms of like the round trip would have been like 40 milliseconds for a satellite because of the

936
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:12,560
low orbit is low earth orbit is like, amazing. Like we have, yeah, like we have technical issues

937
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:18,000
trying to get internet out in the bush. And that is a revelation for us because we there are no

938
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:22,800
other options. Other than if the if the cell network doesn't reach there, and there's a lot

939
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:28,400
of black spots on the cell network that aren't on public roads or in cities, you go out into the

940
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:33,280
bush somewhere and you need like even for emergency services, you need some sort of deployment for

941
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:41,360
your emergency services. Unless you're getting like iridium go satellite from our main carrier

942
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:47,040
and paying a shitload of money to get it there on a trailer. Like you've got no options. The

943
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:55,280
bloody starlink I could plug into my inverter in my car, because the anywhere on the roof,

944
01:32:55,280 --> 01:33:00,560
yeah, and have local Wi-Fi for anyone that's there, whether they're an emergency service or

945
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:05,040
what have you. So like it's pretty revolutionary for us. That's pretty cool. I know there's some

946
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:09,680
SSH clients out there as well that are I think built around that were because SSH obviously is

947
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:14,480
every keystroke right where you might feel that latency. But I think it just brings it all local

948
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:19,120
then whenever you hit enter, it goes right. So you can have some structure where it does some

949
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:23,360
work where you don't really so that 40 milliseconds might not feel like 40 milliseconds, even if you're

950
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:27,840
going to Hetsner or something else in the US or whatever else just because you know, I'm trying

951
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:32,480
to trick it a little bit. So I'm sure even with that, like you would feel like you're right next

952
01:33:32,480 --> 01:33:39,520
to it, right? Pretty cool. To be fair, I'm not SSHing over a satellite. I'm watching YouTube and

953
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:52,080
Okay, so after I extended return to the bush and Noel having gone walk about for a little bit there,

954
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:58,960
shall we do what you most excited about this week and wrap up? Yeah, absolutely.

955
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:07,120
Yep, I'll go. I feel like I've just just insulted the whole of Australia. And if I ever go back

956
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:12,720
there, it all comes back to Australia. We like that episode Simpsons where the Prime Minister

957
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:16,000
of Australia bends over Bart Simpson and gives him the kick in in the ass.

958
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:23,440
On a live broadcast, you took the piss out of Australia and therefore you're going to pay.

959
01:34:23,440 --> 01:34:31,280
So you said, what are you most excited about this week? I look forward to dumping all my

960
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:35,520
Cerberus and Chihuahua and everything else just selling all rewards across all chains just to

961
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:41,920
try to dump the price as much as I can with my small bags. No, I think this week it's great

962
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:46,320
that I've most started back up today. I think that's great. I know there's still work to do there

963
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:50,880
in terms of enabling ledger support and inflation will come back and those types of things. I think

964
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:58,320
that's great. Kind of on the heels of some of the stuff related to dumping, we're getting ready,

965
01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:02,880
as it is more of a personal thing, but from a Rhino perspective, we're getting ready to

966
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:09,920
announce something associated to doing some kind of large scale donations from the rewards that we

967
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:14,400
earn. It's something that we've been kind of working on for a little bit of time. So we're

968
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:19,680
getting ready to relaunch a new website and some other stuff to relate to how, why it's named Rhino

969
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:24,560
and what we think about that and those types of things. So that's all coming in the next week or

970
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:34,400
so. So that's pretty exciting as well. And I think that's it. I see no and defund finance and

971
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:41,760
Althina and all these other types of things that are the next wave. I think this early 2022 wave of

972
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,160
test nets are happening, which is also pretty exciting to see some of these projects moving

973
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:56,080
forward. So that's kind of what's up for me. Yeah, she'll see hit it. Yeah, I go next.

974
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:02,960
Let's do the cosmos itself, but I'm actually really excited about, I'm gonna start playing

975
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:10,400
up Horcrux this next week. I'm gonna try doing some more redundancy type missions, if you will.

976
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:16,080
And it scares the absolute hell out of me. And so naturally, I'm pretty excited for it.

977
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:18,480
So that's what I'm looking forward to next week.

978
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:28,080
I'm actually on a, yeah, not completely cosmos thing, but more of on a personal company thing.

979
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:38,400
I'm excited about our company evolving, especially in this lower red period in the token price,

980
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:44,400
like a lot of the heat comes off in terms of like, you know, the fast pacing of things and like,

981
01:36:45,120 --> 01:36:51,680
you know, users tend to weigh in a little bit when the when the prices are low, and that gives us

982
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:59,360
time as a company to work on things like website and also our company is working on policies,

983
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:04,960
which I want to be a big part of our strategy moving forward. I want people to be able to come

984
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:12,160
to our website, see our strategy in our policies and know exactly what we're about. So that'll

985
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:18,720
include things like, you know, our token selling policy to support our business, our network

986
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:25,360
selection policy, our governance policy, how you can expect that we'll vote, and what our,

987
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:31,200
you know, goals are for governance voting and things like that. So we'll have a dedicated

988
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:36,960
policies page with all of our policies listed out. And I really want to see that live, but

989
01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:41,680
it's a little bit of work left in that before we can get that out. But our new website's almost

990
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:49,280
completed. So I'm pretty happy to get that out. And thanks to our validated friends who pointed

991
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:52,320
me in the right direction to help me get development for that done as well.

992
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:56,640
I look forward to plagiarizing all that content for my own use.

993
01:37:56,640 --> 01:38:03,840
I was just thinking exactly the same thing. Well, typical great ideas organizationally,

994
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:10,640
I wish we had thought of that. We've talked about this, but I think we all have a pretty

995
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:16,960
similar approach to what's important as an independent validator. And I know you're working

996
01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:21,360
on it. No, I'd like they'd be good for us to, I want to be able to collaborate with that too.

997
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:25,200
I know it's kind of a personal thing, but also kind of a community thing. But I don't want to

998
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:28,800
be able to produce something that follows too much to what you're saying, because I know that we

999
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:32,880
agree in terms of how we approach it. So it's kind of a challenge.

1000
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:37,520
So to me, I want people to be able to, it's important to have it on the website. It's

1001
01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:43,200
important that when people go there, they can go and see what you're about. And I think it spaces

1002
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:50,080
you from directionless, at least you can know what you're going to get when, if you come and

1003
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:54,800
stake with King Nodes, you know you're going to get this in governance. You know you're going to get

1004
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:59,360
these going to be selling at these particular times or in this market condition. You know why

1005
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:05,760
those types. I just think it's important for the delegators to know what they're getting into.

1006
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:11,920
As an aside, somebody asked earlier, and I'm going to put this in our notes for

1007
01:39:11,920 --> 01:39:16,880
Ask Game of Nodes for next time. But you know, whether or not it makes validates uncomfortable

1008
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:22,080
when community asks them to show their reasoning on particularly like proposals, but I guess like

1009
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:27,040
broader anything. And I think this is a good example. And like I say, we're wrapping up now,

1010
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:32,960
so we'll maybe come back to this in Ask Game of Nodes next week. But it is, I think, you know,

1011
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:37,120
we were talking about this in Relation to Prop 16 in the past, and we've talked about it on several

1012
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:43,200
shows as this kind of, if we're playing around with social consensus here, then one of the things

1013
01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:48,080
that I think it probably is important for validators to do is think about these things and present

1014
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:54,320
their reasoning. Because like you were saying, just then you said like, when one validated presents

1015
01:39:54,320 --> 01:40:00,160
their reasoning, it tends to be that we then have to talk about it. And that might be as simple as

1016
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:03,440
something which is like policies, which is a good thing for us to be doing, or it could be what

1017
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:08,800
happened with Prop 16 where, you know, Shortsy wrote a really good write up and Polkutu wrote

1018
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:13,760
a write up. And like, you know, a lot of the validators actually wrote up their thoughts

1019
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:21,520
and then talked about them. And that was hugely important to people even decide, because there

1020
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:26,480
was a point, I think, where we were looking, things were looking much more like a really

1021
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:32,720
you know, adversarial situation, a hard fork, something like that. And I think everybody

1022
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:37,120
being able to come back around the table was very, very largely helped by that

1023
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:44,800
people showing their reasoning for any given thing. And I think if your validator is necessarily

1024
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:51,440
public, right, so part of what we do is have to represent the network. That's part of why you get

1025
01:40:51,440 --> 01:40:57,120
paid as a validator, right, is to be doxed and public and have to share your reasoning to some

1026
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:03,680
extent, right? Maybe I think I think ultimately is a validator though, like, we're motivated by

1027
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:10,480
what's best for the network ultimately, because the network surviving and being successful is in

1028
01:41:10,480 --> 01:41:17,920
our interest, right? So, yeah, I guess ideologically, like, it's, of course, insensitive. Yeah, I mean,

1029
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:24,400
some, I mean, and, you know, some validators don't even care, you know, that much about the

1030
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:30,240
economic incentive over the ideology of a blockchain and others are more economically

1031
01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:37,120
driven, but regardless of which camp you're in, or a mixture of the both, ultimately,

1032
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:42,560
your validator wants the network to survive and they want it to succeed, because it's

1033
01:41:43,520 --> 01:41:51,040
in their best interest. And I think if I could just say one thing, like, as we close out with

1034
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:55,840
the Juno props that are going on at the moment, no matter what your opinion,

1035
01:41:55,840 --> 01:42:00,800
please don't shout it at people, let the let other people just come to their own conclusion

1036
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:09,040
and make their own decision. So, I get people like DM me asking me which way I'm going to vote on

1037
01:42:09,040 --> 01:42:13,440
things and then trying to convince me one way or the other, like, that's not the way to do it.

1038
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:19,600
Have your own opinion, make your own vote, but let people arrive at their own decisions and don't

1039
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:23,840
shout it at them what they should be doing and make them feel obligated to do one thing or the

1040
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:35,600
other. Yep, totally agree. Yeah, but then that's also a function of the fact that you're Australian

1041
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:42,320
and Australians don't like being told what to do, right? Yeah, except, you know, if you

1042
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:45,280
contrast that with our voting over here, we have to vote or we get fined.

1043
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:52,800
So, but we have anonymous voting here for governance, I'm talking about it with the

1044
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:58,320
government, federal and all of our elections. If you don't go and make a vote, you get a fine in

1045
01:42:58,320 --> 01:43:23,600
the mail. So, you have to go and vote.