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Welcome to Game of Nodes, weekly podcast on the cosmos for independent validator teams.

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Hey!

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I can't believe that worked.

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Did you press the button and it finally worked?

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I've been pressing it for the last 13 minutes, nonstop.

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Amazing.

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Okay.

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Hello, everybody.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes.

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Sorry about the slight delay.

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As Null just said, possibly, and it possibly was heard on the stream, we're validators,

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we don't have a backup plan.

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So when our streaming provider of choice decided to go down 15 minutes right at the start

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of the stream, we were completely effed.

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So anyway, we're happy to be here.

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Thank you for joining us.

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And what are we going to be talking about tonight?

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Null.

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So we're talking about Prop 16.

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We avoided the shit out of it last time we had a stream and now we're talking about it.

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But it's just like a bit of a general chat about a few of the different proposals that

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have gone up.

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And I don't think we're going to be picking sides or anything like that.

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We're just having a nice general chat about what's available and then moving on.

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And we're going to talk about some monitoring this week as well, as well as a little bit

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of Horcrux and whatever anyone else decides to talk about.

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And Horcrux is a signing method.

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That Jack is pioneered actually in his team.

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So anyway, moving on.

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So does anyone want to make an introduction to the Prop 16 for anyone who doesn't know

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what we're talking about?

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Oh, man.

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All there is.

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That's a loaded question.

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Hey, Joe, so they said that you're going to give an introduction on Prop 16 right off

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the bat.

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Tell me your feelings.

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Let's go.

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Share it.

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It's so simple, like a baby could actually.

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I had to explain this to my wife the other night.

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It was challenging.

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I used your flow chart, Joe.

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Oh, I need to try that.

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Vanessa would love it.

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So we like to reward early adopters and financial backers of crypto systems.

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Who is that?

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Why am I?

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Oh, there we go.

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That was my somebody's watching person who's slowly nodding positive.

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I'm guessing.

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Okay, please continue.

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Sorry, Joe.

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Yeah.

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So we do these things called air drops and they usually work out great because we reward

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people that participate and everything's merry.

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And then we do them again and again and again.

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And life is great.

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And the trick is to construct the air drops in a way that they're fair and that they don't

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over reward someone or that they're not announced too early.

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So someone can try to get all the tokens for free.

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And what we found in the Juneau stakedrop is that someone got more tokens than we expected.

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And by we, I mean the core team.

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The core team discovered that they had awarded more tokens than they wanted to.

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And so there was an initial attempt to try to pull those back.

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It was rejected.

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There was a second attempt to pull those back.

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It passed.

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And now we're trying to figure out what that means, how we can do it.

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And in the meantime, there have been a few alternative proposals or remediations recommended.

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And so, you know, we've basically been hashing that out.

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So it really comes down to does governance override your keys, your crypto?

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And I think in extenuating circumstances, we've seen it do that.

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We've seen it do that in Cosmos.

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We've seen it do it in Osmosis.

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And you know, it's the next test of those two principles.

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I think that's a really nice way of letting it out, Joe.

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I feel like it's worth taking a moment to talk a little bit longer about airdrops because

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really, that's where the important bit here comes from.

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Airdrops are such a specific thing to crypto that granted all of our everyone that's been

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probably knows crypto, but for those that don't, it's really worth emphasizing the importance

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of an airdrop to like stimulate the initial community.

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Juneau's kind of claim to fame was that it's, you know, basically by the people for the

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people it's a community network.

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But other chains, they use airdrops to achieve different things.

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For example, Dig, they airdropped to a social network, I want to say, in order to bring

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in like a specific community into theirs.

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And so because airdrops have this certain basis around them, thought structure around

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them, it's very common for people to try and game it, which is kind of the reason why people

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thought initially that the whale was trying to game it deliberately.

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A lot of people, they will create different wallets, they will, you know, stick a single

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token on 100 different wallets and stick all of them to try and optimize their airdrop,

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because in theory, it should be very profitable, such as in this example.

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But in effect, the intention of it is to stimulate the community, as you said.

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Yeah.

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So I think, you know, in terms of Juneau and the airdropping Juneau and the whale, I think

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the basis of, you know, the outrage is that they've unfairly gained a large amount of

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token on the network, basically, in that it's sort of, a lot of people feel it's not in

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the spirit, I guess, of the airdrop and what it was meant for.

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So also, people seem, you know, concerned that someone with that amount of token, no

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matter how they got it, can in some way damage the network by, I don't know, selling, I

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guess, is the biggest fear, a lot of token at once.

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But it's raised a lot of, you know, it's not.

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I think more than just selling, it's governance too, you know, because, I mean, like what

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Joe was saying, where governance really does end up having absolute control over this,

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we've seen this happen in a couple of other chains, where we can sort of make arbitrary

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state modifications.

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And if that governance power would be used maliciously by an actor with a huge percentage

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of stake, that creates danger.

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And you know, the selling thing is something that I think a lot of folks are absolutely

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right.

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Like a lot of folks are worried about that.

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But for me personally, I think the governance thing is a little bit more worrying.

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So yeah, there's, I think it's a bit of a divide, isn't there, where I think devs and

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validators maybe think governance is probably the bigger of the two issues.

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And that, you know, as long as they don't dump all their tokens in one go, it's not

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that it's a non-issue, but it's the tokens are there, it's not the end of the world.

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There's a kind of pretty common, there are variations.

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I think there's a spectrum of opinions, obviously, but the governance thing is the one that I

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think all certainly every dev and validator I've really talked to is worried about the

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governance implications.

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Whereas I definitely feel like from having spoken to people in the community over the

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last week, be it on Twitter, be it on Telegram, and frankly, people coming out and saying,

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I don't agree with your view on this, here's what I think is the biggest thing is that

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generally seems that in the community at large, the thing that is concerning is the pure number

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of tokens and whether that means, whether that's simply that they are perceived as unfair

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or whether that's, you know, for dumping reasons or eliminating liquidity reasons, I don't

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know.

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I think there's again, there's a variety of opinions as to why that's a bad thing.

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But I think that's also muddying the water of how we've been trying to discuss this thing

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because I think a lot of the time we're going like, oh, but we can solve the governance issue

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in all of these different ways.

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But it comes back to the thing that Joe said, which is in our resolution of this, which

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are we giving primacy to.

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And so what we've also heard is arguments about real world circumstances where, well,

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if a bank gives you money in air, the bank can claw it back.

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And it's like, well, we're not really a bank.

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This isn't really a currency.

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If someone gives you property, at least in America, the government can't take your private

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property without getting through some additional warrants or legislation or paying you for

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the property in goods.

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If someone delivers a package to your door and you didn't order it, it's yours.

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The company can't call up and say, hey, by the way, you need to pay for this.

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Or, hey, by the way, I want that back.

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It's yours.

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There's consumer protection laws that protect you in that instance.

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So this is quite interesting, though, for the reason of, I think a lot of people who

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are validators in particular are obviously concerned about the law in their jurisdiction.

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But an interesting corollary of this entire discussion.

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So obviously, I work on a lot of the several different projects that are building on Juneau

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and the dev teams are multinational.

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We're in multiple jurisdictions.

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The chain itself is in no fixed jurisdiction.

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And so it's kind of like, how do you even set up a project to work on a chain when it's

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fundamentally multilateral?

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And then how do you work out what you're liable for?

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Because there are people who will say to you, if you say you're a validator and you're concerned

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about regulators, so I don't think it takes a regulatory lawyer in a lot of situations

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to look at the current regulation, depending on your jurisdiction, and make a pretty clear

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risk profile of what's going on here.

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But then people can quite reasonably say, well, but which regulator do you mean?

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Are we talking about Japan here?

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Are we talking about the UK?

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Are we talking about the US, Europe?

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Where?

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And there is a real sense in which nobody really knows where the jurisdiction of these

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things begins and ends.

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We just know where we are.

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One really weird note about this on the jurisdiction thing especially, I think it would be really

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fascinating if Juneau is the first chain that decides to do sort of an unorthodox state

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migration like this in a way that was not forced by any government agency.

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Because there's been a lot of ink spilled and sort of thick pieces written about how

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these networks are potentially vulnerable to outside pressure from state agencies.

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And if the state agencies decided to try to push for something like blocked addresses,

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they could coerce the networks into running them.

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But this is something that our community has chosen voluntarily, which as a crazy crypto

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libertarian slash anarchist makes me feel things that I don't quite know what to say

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about.

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It leads to a lot of very interesting questions.

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I mean, I guess that's...

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I think a lot of us have been thinking that this is a really, really academically interesting

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migration.

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And that we all want...

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We're all really, really excited about the blog posts and think pieces we're going to

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write after this is all over.

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But it would be really, like, totally awesome if we still had Juneau to work on when this

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was all over as well, you know?

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I do think it's very important to stress the number of paths that we have considered to

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implement, to devise, to work around, to undo the undo.

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In between the doggifts and just with my chat with you, Joe, I think there's been about

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1,500 different potential solutions.

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And so with each one of them, there's repercussions.

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There's potential fail cases where we suddenly halt the chain.

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And so how can we prevent that?

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And so I understand that we all want this to come to a close.

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But we want to do it with intention and care and to make sure that we're setting ourselves

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up for a bright future as opposed to setting the stage for a dark, bleary authoritarian

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thing.

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Yeah, so I think if we can agree on anything, it's that this hasn't been great for Juneau

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as a whole.

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And it's been incredibly stressful for a lot of people, whether no matter which side of

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the fence you're on, whether you're pro-Yes or pro-No with Vita or whether you're just

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or the whale or whether you're piggy in the middle, it's been incredibly stressful.

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And I think a lot of people are starting to get fatigued from it as well.

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And I think the community is a whole on all sides of the fence, really just want it to

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be a resolution and to be able to move on with development, which you don't hear much of

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the development at the moment because of all this as well.

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So there's a lot of projects and important things going on.

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I mean, there is development happening though.

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Sorry, you, Sir Berk.

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It's OK, Jack.

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I was going to say, it's such a weird fence.

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You said like be on both sides of the fence, but it's not even pro CCN and Antio against

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this.

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It's some pitchforking and this is a wrong that we need to write, which I understand.

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That's a valid viewpoint.

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And then there's this, what we've been talking about, which is like Jack, make a good point

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like, are we setting a precedent for how other bodies can come in and said, this is

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not immutable.

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This is something that can be changed.

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Like all we had is a very close vote that had really poor documentation and details

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behind and then had confusion in terms of, hey, change your vote at the last minute.

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And a lot of the things like going on through that process that it's a really weird fence.

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Thanks, dude.

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And I think that it's such a, like a, I don't know, it's a really, it's a really difficult

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position.

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So I think this pitchforking out here, like around, so it's validators, like people are

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saying, hey, we want to stop and think about this.

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It doesn't actually mean that it's one side of this, this weird, peribidal fence, but

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it's a little bit more around how do we want to set a precedent here about how this goes

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forward.

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And so I think there is a lot of stress around it and there is a lot of conversation around

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it.

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I know that this community is really, really vibrant around trying to solve, like to fix

235
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,240
this, you know, to right this wrong type of idea.

236
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,520
But I don't know if there's really a hurry.

237
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,440
I know everybody says, you know, looking at the rewards out of that account.

238
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,920
Those were, that's been going on for how long, right?

239
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,280
Eight months or whatever it is.

240
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,320
Like if we take another month, who cares?

241
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,480
Like it's not a big deal.

242
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,080
Like it's, it's, it's not something that if this proposal didn't come forward, we would

243
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,760
not be talking about this right now.

244
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,760
Right?

245
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,760
If this proposal wasn't, this might have been something we might have come up like a year

246
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,840
from now, like, holy shit, look at this account, right?

247
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,240
But just because of this fever and this kind of structure that we created now, I think

248
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,320
it's feeding on itself.

249
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,640
And I think what worries me most about this and all stuff talking is that I don't want

250
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:43,680
to set a precedent around just creating a fever that gets generated on Twitter and other

251
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:44,680
types of things.

252
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,640
And everybody's running after this type of thing without really understanding the reason

253
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:54,160
or the why or anything else and trying to get to the details of what's going on there.

254
00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:03,680
I think, I think something else worth notice noting as well is that up until now, the CCN

255
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,960
have been diluting themselves every day by selling.

256
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:15,480
So they've actually been reducing their voting power every day from by diluting themselves

257
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,760
by selling and that's now stopped.

258
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,280
So that's another thing.

259
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:26,160
I mean, like if we make them never sell and stake every day, then they're just going to

260
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:27,720
increase their voting power.

261
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,200
I think as well, like just picking up on what you said was saying there as well, I think

262
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,680
as well, you said this a couple of weeks ago when this first kicked off, which is like,

263
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:43,560
however we come to a solution here, like everybody will hate it in the short term.

264
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,640
And in two months, we won't be talking about it.

265
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,760
I mean, this is the inherent nature of compromise.

266
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,440
And if there's one thing that good governance does it forces people to compromise.

267
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,800
So I think that if we all hate it, that's probably a good indication that it's working

268
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:00,800
well.

269
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:09,400
But one thing I want to kind of circle back on that we've kind of brushed over and I think

270
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:15,600
that as somebody voted no on the proposal and has been very public in their views, this

271
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,320
is something that I feel like doesn't get enough air.

272
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,360
Like CCN, like not great.

273
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:30,040
Just like I think we can all agree that like CCN is not great.

274
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,680
I found out about this and I have to say, allegedly CCN are not great.

275
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:35,680
It's not great.

276
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,480
We've been involved in some not great behavior.

277
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,480
Yeah.

278
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:41,480
Very allegedly.

279
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,280
I forget about I forget that in England, you guys have actual censorship, which is kind

280
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,280
of hilarious.

281
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,840
The home of the free press where it started and you guys have censorship.

282
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,120
The like I found out about this entity back in 2020.

283
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:03,840
It was like they're running this huge MLM in Japan and like there were the Toku Me Anso

284
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:10,760
Twitter account at that time had just photos and videos of people like speaking about cosmos.

285
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,000
And like, I don't know if people know what was happening back then, but that was like

286
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,120
DeFi summary, tailed off, prices were way down.

287
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,000
Like we hadn't hit the crypto bull yet.

288
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,360
Like Adam was struggle zone.

289
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,240
We hadn't shipped IBC yet.

290
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:31,960
It was a real tough time and like nobody was buying Adam and CCN went from nowhere to the

291
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,760
fourth largest validator by doing whatever they did in Japan.

292
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:46,400
So like the really morally murky things are like to get this cool IBC thing that we really

293
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:53,000
like a huge part of that might have been like this weird MLM scheme in Japan that like none

294
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,200
of us like did a bunch of shady things that drove the price up, right?

295
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,120
They drove the price up a well, no, they bought when nobody else was buying.

296
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:06,320
So essentially supported the price.

297
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,560
Yeah.

298
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,760
That one's super weird to me and I don't know quite how to feel about it.

299
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,520
And then like suddenly they get all these IBC air drops because they have this weird wallet

300
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:23,400
management strategy where they're like the whole story is stranger than fiction in a

301
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,400
lot of ways.

302
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,760
And like, yeah, it's just it's bizarre to me.

303
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,960
I mean, also the whole story of this, how this is unfolded with the interactions and

304
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:32,960
stuff.

305
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:40,920
Like, you know, at first I thought it was the language barrier and then for a while I was

306
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,240
like, you know, are they negotiating in bad faith?

307
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,800
Do they just not understand the seriousness of the situation?

308
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,920
And I think it's actually a combination of a lot of the above.

309
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,560
And also like, yeah, I don't know if you've seen these guys, but they're also like, I'm

310
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,400
not that old, but they're young guys as well.

311
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Like, you know, I've made a lot of money and I think there's a really strong element that

312
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,920
they don't really know how they've ended up here other than they have.

313
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,640
Like and some of that's obviously been intentional.

314
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,000
Obviously, you don't just make that kind of money without making conscious decisions

315
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,000
along the way.

316
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,880
But there is like, like you just said, Jack, there's a stranger than fiction element to

317
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:27,600
this entire thing, which I think like the kind of weirdness element of it cannot be

318
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,800
underestimated in terms of how we've ended up.

319
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,160
If you start off with a fundamentally weird situation, you can't be too surprised that

320
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,040
it gets weirder and weirder and weirder the more you scratch, right?

321
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,040
Yeah.

322
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,360
And at this point now where we've scratched off every single layer of the, of the, of

323
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,520
the, I don't know about that.

324
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,040
I think that there's this whole onion sitting down there about the real history of CCN that

325
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,320
once people find out about it, everyone's gonna be like, fucking really?

326
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,320
I don't know.

327
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,520
I just know what the onion smells like at this point.

328
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,280
And I'm like, that onion did not smell good.

329
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:08,960
And I would say that I think it's not, I think it's well within my rights, within the legal

330
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,240
and libel system of the UK to say there is something a bit fishy going on here.

331
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,720
I mean, that's, that's why I voted no.

332
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,520
Like it smells wrong, but like I couldn't find where the smell came from.

333
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,080
So like, is it right?

334
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,080
Exactly.

335
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,080
I mean, that's exactly it.

336
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,520
Like I think, you know, the position that we came out very publicly with a no vote very

337
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:36,760
early, relatively early on in 16's discussion, moved to no with veto have taken some flak

338
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:37,760
for that.

339
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,560
And I think it will kind of boils down to this thing of like, there's obviously something

340
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,560
weird going on here.

341
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:49,720
And we obviously don't like the whale, you know, and definitely think there's something

342
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,000
a bit up with their business practices.

343
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:01,480
But can we extend that to breaking what we see as, you know, sanctity of wallet balances

344
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,280
because we don't like somebody?

345
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,960
That's not really the trial, right?

346
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,600
I mean, the trial is the trial is this was this delivered erroneously and should it be,

347
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,960
you know, is there a problem with that?

348
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,120
And I think Joe started this out with saying that this was delivered by mistake.

349
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:21,480
I don't know if you use that term or maybe I just heard that term, but it wasn't delivered.

350
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,640
It wasn't though, right?

351
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,640
Because at the time they were separate wallets only later did that we realize that I guess

352
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,560
individuals realized after they combined it, if they wouldn't have combined it, we wouldn't

353
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:31,560
have this conversation, right?

354
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,440
It would have just been 50 walls that are all had a ton of adamant, right?

355
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:40,080
Or, or maybe 73 or 76 wallets, whatever it is.

356
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:46,400
Not that I thought anyway, I keep finding that's a separate episode.

357
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,960
Episode four, episode three.

358
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:50,960
Yeah.

359
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,960
It's a cabbie with a flip board.

360
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:58,360
And as you can see from position five, and then flips over the flip board, I'll be like,

361
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,280
this is another one I discovered.

362
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,280
Right.

363
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,560
So, but, but after that was, after that was discovered, then, then I think really then

364
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,920
it started to understand, okay, this is maybe one person.

365
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,280
And then after that, that was in the proposal came forward and then really the investigation

366
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,760
started to understand that then we had revealed who that person, that group was.

367
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,640
Then we started understanding if it was an exchange or not, right?

368
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,640
All that happened after the proposal was delivered.

369
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,440
So I, I think like this is a, it's kind of like we went to trial before we even did,

370
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,360
we had a case to really understand what the details of that case was.

371
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:36,880
And we went into trial and we realized, oh crap, we have the wrong thing on trial here.

372
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,880
But, but I, but I do think that to the point before, which is, is, is how the business

373
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,160
run part of this decision.

374
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,200
And I, I think it's like a jury situation, I guess maybe, but it's really difficult to

375
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,920
put that on, that on trial as part of the fun piece of it because there's probably more

376
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:56,920
to that.

377
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,160
And I think that's a good one, right?

378
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,160
Yeah.

379
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,600
You know, like if, if we're going to put on trial an entity because put it whichever way

380
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,600
you want, like, is that business practices or we don't like them or whatever, then what's

381
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,160
the stop a regulator coming along later and saying, well, look, you guys, you did this

382
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,400
thing before because you were like, they're super shady and you wrote a lot of stuff publicly

383
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,400
and you put, you put your reasoning on chain and then voted on it.

384
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,280
So we say these guys are terrorists or these guys are whatever or whatever.

385
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480
And like, again, I'm not making a moral judgment on this either way.

386
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,920
Like I'm not super jazzed about criminals or terrorists or whatever, whatever anyway,

387
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,440
but it's about whether or not we actually have a remit to act or whether we're setting

388
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:43,560
a precedent here or specifically a precedent that can be repeated.

389
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,880
And then you're back to your point, you said, but you were saying like a lot of the reasoning

390
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,840
here was rushed, but I think that's why it was very important to look at Jaby's first

391
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,880
proposal, which was, you know, the reasoning of the proposal was, Prop 16, the wording

392
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,600
was everything over 50K, you know, game wallet.

393
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,440
And by that, you have to then look at Jaby's first proposal, which is every single wallet

394
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,880
over 50K, which merged and which we can identify that isn't the Prop 14 multi-sig, quick edition,

395
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,720
or the IBC Relayer account.

396
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,600
You know, if you're going to claim as a clawback or a generic clawback, I think you have to,

397
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,960
that's the only argument you can fall back on, say we have to burn all those, but you

398
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,160
know that burning 13 wallets or whatever is not a good look.

399
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,880
So it's kind of again, back to the like, you know, what is, and I know we didn't know this

400
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,640
before Prop 16 went live, and that's why we are where we are, right?

401
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,040
That's a super important point.

402
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,760
It's very fundamental to what we're talking about, isn't it?

403
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:51,560
And that Prop 16 went live before I think any of us on this call knew it was a thing.

404
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,400
We knew that Prop 4 was a thing, but we didn't know Prop 16 was going to happen until, you

405
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,760
know, oh, look, there's a proposal up for vote.

406
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,760
Hey, wait a second, this looks familiar.

407
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:01,760
What is this?

408
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,760
Yeah.

409
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,000
I was on splitting atoms two weeks ago when this happened.

410
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,720
And I think you can see me at the beginning of the show go, oh, this proposal just went

411
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,080
up on June, oh, this is going to be a disaster.

412
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,200
And you weren't wrong.

413
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,200
Yes.

414
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,200
Yes.

415
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:21,200
Yes.

416
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,880
The Cardinals Club Network.

417
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,880
So there's anyone.

418
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,120
AKA Debo, AKA game.

419
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:32,200
What didn't they have some rug from 2017 or a couple of rugs?

420
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,440
So mold I think was their original.

421
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,480
AKA mold.

422
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,160
So I'm not sure if that was, I mean, I don't really know the details, but I'm not sure

423
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,160
it was a rug.

424
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,720
I think basically they, it was their game project called mold that they were going to

425
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,440
do on another network.

426
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,160
And then so the ICO'd, I believe, and then, you know, the R spell out of everything.

427
00:27:53,160 --> 00:28:01,280
So I think the plan was to distribute some of the game to the mold holders or something

428
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,560
like that, but can't be really sure.

429
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,720
I haven't seen the tokenomics of the thing, but yeah, don't know if it's legit a rug though,

430
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,840
I guess is what I'm saying.

431
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:19,720
So when I was investigating like the claims for Prop 16, one of the things that some folks

432
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:27,520
were asking me was, would you care if they were MLM Ponzi scammers?

433
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:36,720
And I was like, no, as written, there's the criteria for the stake drop.

434
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,600
They have met the stake drop criteria.

435
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,680
They applied this before they could have known the stake drop criteria.

436
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,200
There's nothing wrong here.

437
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:55,440
And then they write a medium article that says, so we sort of hold our customers funds

438
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,120
in custody and we provide liquidity on their behalf.

439
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,160
And we also like, you know, buy and sell Adam on their behalf.

440
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,920
And I'm like, well, that's like the definition of an exchange.

441
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,200
You can just find only that I have a lot of holes in their fate.

442
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:19,640
Well, they take also take a huge commission.

443
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:26,920
But the period in which they bought Adam and then gave it back to people basically ensures

444
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,040
that whatever they did otherwise, like they made their clients like a 4x so who can get

445
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,120
bad at them, which is kind of another crazy situation about this whole CCN thing that

446
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,120
like,

447
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,120
Yeah, exactly.

448
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,560
Even if it was done in like with the intention to like potentially like, so even if even

449
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:52,840
if somebody could successfully allege that they were doing it in the with the intent

450
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,200
of defrauding customers, which obviously would be a serious allegation.

451
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,200
Yes.

452
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,200
And is not proven.

453
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,480
They nevertheless, because of market conditions, returned a 4x return.

454
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:10,440
Kind of great guys, if you're their customers, right, which is insane, right?

455
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,880
When else is when else was such a thing like accidentally be that?

456
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,960
It's only crypto.

457
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:25,600
Well, and they advertise fairly modest returns, something like 8% or 7% or something like

458
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,080
that and to instead get 400% in two years that.

459
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,880
Yeah, whether or not they actually return that much to their clients.

460
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:40,920
I don't know because I think they had contracts with a fixed APR in place.

461
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,160
So I think what actually happened was it was like a bank savings account where you say

462
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,280
you can get 2.5%, let's say, I mean, you definitely would not get 2.5% right now with

463
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,480
current market conditions.

464
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,280
But like, if you give the bank your money, they give you 2.5% back on savings rate, but

465
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,160
then they go gamble without doing options or CDOs or something, which is what banks actually

466
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,080
do with your money and they return 10 times investment or they lose it all.

467
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,600
They take that and you still get 2% whether they lose it or whether they return 100 times.

468
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:19,200
I think it's kind of a similar situation here, wild and crazy though it is.

469
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,720
And some of the jump-throughs as well to kind of make all that work are super sus.

470
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,560
The fact they were issuing essentially a token that was not a token to represent the

471
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,800
atom, that's like a what a bearer token security.

472
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:34,800
I mean,

473
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,560
Oh yeah, that's all kinds of security flaw issues.

474
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:43,440
So I mean, this is not an alleged, I can just say this, if they did that in the United Kingdom,

475
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:49,280
that would require full regular, first of all, the running an exchange that requires regulation

476
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,280
with the FCA.

477
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,640
They're issuing a token that's pegged to a secure, the potential security, the access

478
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,720
security, pretty sure that that's a regulated activity.

479
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:05,960
There's a lot of things there that are like, okay, but that's how that's how, because again,

480
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,160
we're none of us are Japanese legal experts.

481
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:14,040
Obviously this apparently can get around whatever legal restriction is in place, but gosh, it

482
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,640
does not look good.

483
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:21,440
Yeah, you just look at Prop 16 as written, which everyone likes to go back to because

484
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,200
they're like, where are you doing with Prop 16 written?

485
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,200
It was wrong.

486
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,080
It was categorically wrong.

487
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,200
It made claims that are false.

488
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,320
And we can prove it like, look, I have the data that says it's wrong.

489
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,280
And so why aren't you implementing it?

490
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,760
Well, that's neither here nor there because the community voted.

491
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,880
And so the expectation is that, of course, we'll carry that out.

492
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:58,720
And so in my authoring of a follow-up proposal was to try to set the record straight and make

493
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:06,960
sure that we're not going to face liability on making false claims and executing judgment

494
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,240
or remediation based off of false claims.

495
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:19,920
And so I think the virtual currency exchange definition based off of Japanese law is still

496
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,560
even shaky ground.

497
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:31,920
So at any rate, it's definitely exercised my understanding of I am not a lawyer.

498
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,440
It's interesting, because this idea, I don't know if they're exchange or not, whatever

499
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,600
that definition is, but get away from that.

500
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:45,240
I've been on 10 WebExes lately in the last six months around funds built in the US that

501
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:51,680
take in customer money that stake across multiple crypto chains, like different ecosystems

502
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:58,240
that return back with a K1, just a standard investment that has a structured endpoint

503
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,240
on that.

504
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,480
Dude, that might be one wallet or many wallets.

505
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,480
Who knows?

506
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,000
It's a fund account.

507
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,800
People are putting in $100,000, $200,000 into a fund account.

508
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,480
They might make $60 million or something like that and then be able to stake that across

509
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,480
multiple chains.

510
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,960
They might incur some sort of understanding of fixed percentages.

511
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,480
Do they get airdrops?

512
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,480
They would, right?

513
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,200
Depending on how they're getting blacked out, they might have multiple, maybe they have

514
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,360
multiple wallets to get around that type of structure.

515
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:26,360
The same thing.

516
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,760
Regardless of where CCN, those funds, where they came from and the story behind that, I'm

517
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,680
not defending that in any sort of way.

518
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,400
But this problem is not unique to this individual group.

519
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,400
I think this is going to be a bigger and bigger issue.

520
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:46,200
If a group like that, how would they deal with that in the US from a tax perspective

521
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,160
to say, hey, we have these customer accounts and now we airdropped $50 million in value

522
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,680
across these other types of chains, but they're not traded so they don't really have the... Yeah,

523
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:56,680
exactly.

524
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,360
I think it's a pretty interesting issue.

525
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,520
Joe might have some interesting thoughts on this.

526
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:14,000
Great scale is a fantastic over-the-counter fund that you can invest in on Fidelity or

527
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:20,000
other exchange services, stock exchange services.

528
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:32,160
You can buy a share of this fund that represents a share of Bitcoin called GBTC or Grayscale

529
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,800
Bitcoin Trust.

530
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:43,760
And when that happened, I bought into it before the Bitcoin cash split and then Bitcoin cash

531
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,760
split.

532
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,680
And so suddenly, you have all these investors wondering, hey, wait a second, shouldn't I

533
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,160
get GBCH or whatever is equivalent?

534
00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,080
And what ultimately happened was they said, okay, we're going to hold on to it for a second.

535
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,760
We're going to see which way the market goes and the market stayed with Bitcoin.

536
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:13,240
And so then they liquidated the BCH and then I got an airdrop of USD in my Fidelity account

537
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,080
out of the blue and it's like, oh, great.

538
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,240
So that worked out just fine.

539
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:18,240
So they sold it?

540
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:19,240
Yeah, they sold it.

541
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:20,240
They liquidated it.

542
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:25,080
Did you get your Bitcoin Gold and your Bitcoin Diamonds and your Bitcoin Blue and your Bitcoin

543
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Secret?

544
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,080
I have so many Bitcoin.

545
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,080
No, not from Grayscale.

546
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,960
I have so many Bitcoins, you guys.

547
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,080
So many Bitcoins.

548
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,080
But not what you think.

549
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,080
I have so many shit Bitcoins.

550
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,080
Shit bits.

551
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:42,080
Shit bits.

552
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,080
Yeah, you just have to.

553
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,360
How has Coinbase handled this in the past?

554
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,200
Do they give in full access to forks and airdrops to people or like, are they like sitting on

555
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,520
keys worth millions of dollars in Osmo and Juno?

556
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,920
Some airdrops have to be missing those accounts, right?

557
00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:59,920
Like it has to be.

558
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:00,920
Yeah, totally.

559
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,960
I mean, for Juno, think about this.

560
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,200
If you look at the list of excluded addresses in the Juno airdrop file, it's just a validator

561
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:14,320
addresses of the exchanges, which like, cool, fine.

562
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,640
Exchanges use many other wallets that aren't their validator address.

563
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,640
Sure.

564
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,360
Like, the airdrop was perfect.

565
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,800
Just this one issue.

566
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:34,720
Just this one airdrop from heaven, manna from heaven.

567
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,440
Nothing wrong with this manna.

568
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,840
Well, see, have you heard the, have you heard the micro whale conspiracy theory?

569
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,400
This is my favorite conspiracy theory.

570
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,880
Oh, please, please.

571
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:51,880
So the micro whale conspiracy theory is so obviously has been arguing about whether or

572
00:37:51,880 --> 00:38:01,520
not Atom has been returned to clients in their own non-custodial wallets by CCN over time,

573
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,800
because it's very, very hard to verify that, right?

574
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:10,760
So some have alleged that that might not have happened.

575
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,800
And the question that comes along with that is, okay, if that didn't happen, then assuming

576
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,080
it's trackable, how do you just create 30, 40,000 wallets, right?

577
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,680
And manage them as if they're one wallet.

578
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,720
And a bunch of people went away and went, maybe it is actually possible to script this.

579
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:30,360
You know, we think that depending on your risk profile, you probably could script it,

580
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,440
which leads us to the micro whale hypothesis, which is that statistically speaking, it is

581
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,160
certain there is at least one more whale we've missed of some kind.

582
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,800
Like, it seems ridiculous that there wouldn't be one more, right?

583
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,560
Like the long tail of probability.

584
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,680
And so the micro whale hypothesis, like I say, it's a conspiracy theory, but I love it,

585
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,800
is that there is a whale with a massive amount of Juneau split into lots of tiny wallets

586
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,680
that mean that we can't find them.

587
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,840
But they're just operating quietly as one kind of large voting block that's scripted.

588
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,680
What I would say to the conspiracy theorists is like, don't hurt your head.

589
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:14,200
Like, I mean, Occam's razor applies here, I think, which is that really probably would

590
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,200
have seen it.

591
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,640
And we would have noticed, but.

592
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,200
Well, what about all the accounts with less than one Juneau that voted on the governance

593
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:22,680
proposal?

594
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaking of micro accounts.

595
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,440
Well, yeah.

596
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Huge amounts of space.

597
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,040
Well, if you were the micro whale, what would be the best way of convincing people that

598
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,760
the micro whale didn't exist?

599
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,640
We'll be voting to burn the whale.

600
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,360
And then everybody goes whale situation solved for all time while the micro whale swims off

601
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,440
into the distance on 200 million dust accounts.

602
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,240
Well, these were accounts that had less than one Juneau state.

603
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:55,040
Joe, for the win.

604
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:03,160
There were so many, like, yeah, less than one Juneau, but like less than 0.0001 Juneau.

605
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:04,520
Like they were dust.

606
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,560
They were just enough to make the.

607
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Just to make the vote.

608
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,800
But that was completely bad for the network, too.

609
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,680
Like that just, just adds to the bloody block sizes.

610
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,880
Yeah, they spare me.

611
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,920
And like, but the transaction bloody index and everything, it just is terrible for the

612
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,920
network.

613
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,520
And there's tens of thousands of those bloody accounts.

614
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:31,040
No, you see, I very much agree with you.

615
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,040
It's terrible.

616
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,560
State bloat is the worst.

617
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,800
I have wanted to finger Joe is is Pup most for a very long time, but I'm convinced that

618
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,280
Joe is not Pup most.

619
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:48,040
I have convinced myself and I think you need to convince yourselves to because the real

620
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,360
Pup most is out there and we're going to find them and we're going to give them all the

621
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,360
head scratches.

622
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,160
It's the only way to do it, right?

623
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:02,760
If I were the real Pup most, I would not have a Pup most validator and a Jaby validator.

624
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,720
That would be unfair to the network.

625
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:10,680
And so that would be exactly what the person that was Pup most.

626
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:17,400
I know that was the allegations of civil validators against that otherwise quite tight

627
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,400
Opsac.

628
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,840
I mean, I'm really good theory on that other micro whale.

629
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,000
So, you know, whatever that would only be, I want to hear the theories on the micro whale.

630
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,520
I love the micro whale conspiracy.

631
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,920
It's one of my favorite things to come out of.

632
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,720
Why would I self incriminate?

633
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,800
Apart from the micro whale, right?

634
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,000
To quote Malcolm Tucker in the thick of it, right?

635
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,960
The last week has been like the Shawshank redemption, except for way more crawling through

636
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,080
shit and no fucking redemption.

637
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,080
Right?

638
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,080
Just an endless pipe.

639
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:52,680
But the micro whale is like the one glibber of hope.

640
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,680
I'm like, this is a great period.

641
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,680
I love it.

642
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,360
Shulte had a point, I think.

643
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:00,360
I had a point.

644
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,360
What are we talking about?

645
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:07,840
No, I was going to say, the Jaby and Pup most being a civil validator.

646
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:14,160
A civil is only true if Jaby doesn't have split personality.

647
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,920
So he might genuinely not know that he's Pup most.

648
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,720
No, it's like a, it's like a fight club situation.

649
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:25,560
Like he's up at 3am downstairs, like building up Pup most and then wakes up and he's back

650
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:26,560
to Jaby.

651
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:27,560
Yeah.

652
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,680
Well, I mean, Pup most tends to operate in a completely different time period.

653
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:37,080
So what happens with Pup most and Jaby interact on Twitter within minutes of each other?

654
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,960
He's just like blacking out and then coming back to me and something weird happened.

655
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,200
I mean, that would be the real fight club situation.

656
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:45,200
Totally right.

657
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,200
The idea.

658
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,200
Governor dynamic.

659
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,200
I'm John Nash.

660
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,200
Tyler Abbey.

661
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,200
Right.

662
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:57,400
Someone, someone came up with the theory, not low and go that it was a wolf contract.

663
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,400
Pup most.

664
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,400
Yeah.

665
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,400
I know.

666
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,080
I've known him for a while.

667
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,560
Pup most is far more technical than wolf is.

668
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,320
If you read those wolves, they're, they're pretty smart wolves.

669
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,440
That's a, let's not get into that.

670
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,720
So, so where, where do we go?

671
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:22,080
So where do we go now on this prop?

672
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,640
Like that was one of our points we want to get to is like, so it's March 23rd.

673
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,960
We have some, we have a, the worst negotiation skills from CCN possible, by the way, like

674
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,120
just, just learn how to learn how to negotiate.

675
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,120
But we have some, we have some a win-win-win kind of proposal put up.

676
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,280
We have a somewhat of a response kind of from CCN.

677
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:50,880
I think, I think everybody mostly wants some sort of realistic compromise that we can try

678
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:56,440
to hold some ideals around the chain, but at the same time we want to get past this

679
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,120
because I think this doesn't go anywhere but down, right?

680
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,520
Like nothing gets built while this happens.

681
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,040
This is a public conversation for everybody.

682
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,040
It's just negative.

683
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,080
And I think everybody wants to move on because that's, this is not the goal of what we're,

684
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,960
everybody's trying to achieve on this call, plus everybody who's listening to this, right?

685
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:19,480
So realistically, what the hell happens from here?

686
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,680
Can I, can I share my opinion?

687
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:27,560
I think that what we need to do, because we just went through all of the crazy questions

688
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,080
that we cannot answer right now about this whole situation and how wild it is.

689
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,880
And I think one of the things that's happened is there's this right to judgment.

690
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,720
There's this like thing, people want to do it.

691
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:44,280
I think the best solutions that have come out, the win-win-win proposal that Wolf posted

692
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:50,360
yesterday, some of the other things that are being worked on right now are basically like,

693
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,520
let's freeze this account.

694
00:44:52,520 --> 00:45:00,560
Let's like put it in a smart contract, have some conditions on that, and like then cooler

695
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,000
heads can prevail.

696
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,360
We can negotiate with these folks.

697
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:10,240
We can work to figure out a solution here and like get on with normal business.

698
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:11,960
We've got the looper-calie upgrade coming up.

699
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,800
We got some exciting cross-chain-cosm-wasm stuff, interchange accounts.

700
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,520
Strange Love is like working on energy and account support for the Go Relayer.

701
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:27,000
We have this new test framework for IBC chains so that you can spin up any two chains, load

702
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,520
them with any smart contracts you want, and test complex IBC flows between the two chains

703
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:38,400
using the Relayer in a sort of automated like unit test type fashion.

704
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,760
So I think that if we freeze this account, like kick the can forward a little bit and

705
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:50,040
figure out what to do with it, yeah, smart contract, no one bonding, no staking, no voting,

706
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,640
they don't get any more money from this.

707
00:45:51,640 --> 00:46:00,160
We like make sure that the threat that this community feels from this governance or this

708
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,600
economic threat that they feel, we neutralize that and then we try to kind of figure out

709
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,160
how to move forward from there.

710
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,880
That to me seems like the best option, but who knows?

711
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:18,920
Yeah, I mean, and to be honest, like the more we found out about, okay, I need to phrase

712
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:26,000
this carefully, the more that we have found out about them and their business practices,

713
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:32,080
in my opinion, the more it has become clear that our concerns around their influence on

714
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,520
governance are not unreasonable.

715
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:37,520
They're reasonable.

716
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,520
They're really, really reasonable.

717
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,520
Yeah.

718
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,440
Strictly in my opinion, you understand, for the purposes of British law.

719
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:55,080
It really, really is the case that, I think everybody who went into this even slightly

720
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,680
indifferent has now had to read everything that has been posted, read all of the different

721
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:05,520
information that's come out and then take a more concrete position.

722
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,880
It seems to me like the one thing that I think that everybody presumably by now has seen the

723
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,560
counter proposal that came out today, which I think Jack described as delusional, I just

724
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:17,560
something like that.

725
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,560
I think I described it as unworkable.

726
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:27,280
I think without removing voting power, I influence on governance and without removing

727
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,640
staking, nobody is happy.

728
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,200
The community is not happy, validators aren't happy, devs aren't happy.

729
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,400
So that has to be the absolute basis of anything we do moving forward.

730
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,640
Like you say, the smart contract unity prop can accommodate that.

731
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,880
Their proposal said, we want to keep our governance vote.

732
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:48,520
We want to keep staking.

733
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,160
We want to keep getting rewards.

734
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,280
That's literally the status quo.

735
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,720
The whole thing people do want them to have.

736
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,760
That's what's happening right now.

737
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,760
That's cool having you fucking cake and eating it.

738
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,920
That's exactly what we're going to have.

739
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:10,800
That's like pretending like nothing happened, that 98% of stake didn't vote for this thing.

740
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,520
Without, I think that we probably could have gotten a higher percentage of stake to vote

741
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,040
for it if we had planned it a little bit better.

742
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,920
That's not higher percentage of stake total turnout.

743
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,040
I think we would have gotten a higher percentage of stake, yes, if we had planned it a little

744
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,720
bit better.

745
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:29,720
That's wild.

746
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:35,080
That is an absolutely wild statistic.

747
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,320
All of my time in proof of stake blockchains, I have never seen anything like that.

748
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,320
Not even close.

749
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,320
98%.

750
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,520
No, never seen anything above 90%.

751
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,960
I think Akash got to 89% on one proposal one time and I was like, this is wild.

752
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,480
You can probably go find my tweet from the time I'm like, records in proof of stake governance.

753
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,880
And nothing like that.

754
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,520
Just to clarify though, that wasn't 98% of participants.

755
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,640
That was 98% of stake.

756
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:09,880
So that includes validators participating on behalf of stakers.

757
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:10,880
Yes.

758
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:16,000
I think that, so I think any way you measure this, this is sort of a record breaking governance

759
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,720
proposal percentage of stake, you're absolutely right, is influenced by the number of validators

760
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:20,720
voted.

761
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:22,080
We had unprecedented validator turnout.

762
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,880
That's pretty cool.

763
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:28,040
If you look at the absolute number of votes, even excluding the Juno accounts that had

764
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:35,720
less than one Juno, there's still like 30 or 40,000 people voting for this thing, individuals.

765
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:36,960
I have a friend who's a lawyer.

766
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,080
He's been investing in Terra and Cosmos and a bunch of stuff since like early 2020.

767
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,720
Can I just do it with Kepler?

768
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:44,720
No.

769
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:47,280
I have to do it with Kepler.

770
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:48,960
I like showed him how to do all this stuff.

771
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,120
He's been like staking Luna and doing DeFi protocols.

772
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,280
But he has never voted in a governance proposal until this.

773
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,880
And I think that there are many, many Cosmonauts out there who this was their first governance

774
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,120
experience.

775
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,120
And that's cool.

776
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,120
It's fantastic.

777
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:04,120
Yeah.

778
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,120
I think that's bullish for Juno.

779
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,160
You know, Noel, you said earlier, like this cannon does hurt the network in some ways.

780
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:20,400
But I think that what this also shows is there's a ton of enthusiasm behind this network and

781
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,360
people really love it and they want to keep contributing to it.

782
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,320
And that in my mind, that's bullish engagement.

783
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,320
Good.

784
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,800
More and more people getting more and more excited about this.

785
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:30,880
That's good.

786
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,400
That means that when we launch the next version of Dow Dow, when we have these really exciting

787
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,080
interchange for our contracts, we got all of the coolest shit on Juno because we got

788
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,400
all the coolest devs working on it.

789
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,400
Like, yeah, absolutely.

790
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,960
To be fair, I think it only hurts.

791
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,720
I got to jump here.

792
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:47,720
Sorry, guys.

793
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:49,280
I have a meeting at five.

794
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,040
Anyway, very much enjoyed this and looking forward to doing this again next week.

795
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,800
I will see you guys on the next game of Dow.

796
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:56,800
See you, man.

797
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,800
See you later, buddy.

798
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:58,800
See you.

799
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,800
Yeah.

800
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,640
So just on what Jack was saying, to be fair from what I said before, I think it only hurts

801
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,320
Juno temporarily.

802
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,360
It's like, you know, like I said to the Frey, two months down the road, no one even remembers

803
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:12,360
this.

804
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:13,360
Maybe even a month.

805
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,960
It's once it's put to bed, it's done.

806
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,800
No one will remember.

807
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:18,800
No.

808
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,280
I think it's a little dismissive.

809
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,160
I think that there's more potential for it helping the network than it does hindering

810
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,160
it, right?

811
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,760
Because if we are setting president, regardless of what president we're setting, then people

812
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:31,760
are going to be looking into it.

813
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:38,680
Like this, this is quite literally a case that if there's a course on crypto on any college

814
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,400
and university, this is going to be in it because there's statements out here.

815
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,920
There's lots of public statements of different positions that are being taken.

816
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,440
And it kind of shows the power and the significance of decentralization, right?

817
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:57,320
So I think that showing like the fact that it's going to be so broad scale potentially,

818
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:04,880
I think that it's a really great voice for what Juno is and what Juno can develop further

819
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:05,880
into.

820
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,440
So, so not to dismiss the, you know, the prop, but I mean, we've already done it.

821
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,880
Prop four, it got voted down.

822
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,720
No one talked about it until Prop 16.

823
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:18,800
I don't remember hearing any discourse about it after it all.

824
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,160
And it was a big thing at the time.

825
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,800
And but at the time, people weren't as invested in it because not many people had paid for

826
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:24,800
their tokens.

827
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,800
It was all airdrop tokens.

828
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,840
Now you've got people are much more vocal now, I think, because there's a lot more people

829
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,040
who have invested in Juno, not just received Juno.

830
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:41,760
So, you know, but in terms of longevity of the conversation, I don't know, but prop four,

831
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,240
once you go vote it out, that was it, but never heard about it again, that I remember.

832
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:50,720
I think that that would be true if 16 had gone down.

833
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,280
If 16 had said no, and we decided we're leaving it, then I think that would be the end of

834
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,680
the conversation.

835
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,640
There would be a lot of contention now, what have you, but the fact that it went yes, and

836
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:07,240
that ultimately what is going to happen is a, and account with $125 million or 100 million

837
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:14,400
now is potentially going to be sucked out of a wallet by choice.

838
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,240
That's what makes it a more interesting and more compelling conversation.

839
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:23,400
And I think that's what's going to cement it into textbooks as like the first really

840
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,800
big proof of stake instance for governments.

841
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,880
Well, that's just like a really interesting case of like coders law, right?

842
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:37,240
Because you can say coders law on a proof of work blockchain, but you have no complicated

843
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:42,720
governance structures, whereas in proof of stake ostensibly, you do have an electorate,

844
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:43,720
right?

845
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:48,920
But every, I think I was saying this to meow the other day, like, you know, you have like

846
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:58,120
in most mature electoral systems, you have some kind of idea of separation of judiciary,

847
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,840
electorate and law, right?

848
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:08,560
So we kind of have law, we have code and code implies very heavily, if not actively says

849
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:13,160
like the wallet balances are immutable, right?

850
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,920
It makes that very heavy assumption, if not actually lays it down as law, because you

851
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:23,080
can't alter them other than doing an upgrade and forced to be mutating chain state and

852
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,240
then coming back up with a new upgrade.

853
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:29,440
I would say that's as close to law as you can actually get with programming, you know,

854
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:35,560
barring the halting problem and lots of other fun computer science holes in, you know, code

855
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,760
actually having a fixed meaning, right?

856
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,920
It all gets a bit postmodern.

857
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,800
But then we have this other thing that we don't have, which is a judiciary to rule on

858
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,240
what that means, right?

859
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:46,560
So who, what's a judiciary?

860
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,440
That's presumably devs, right?

861
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,640
In this case, in, you know, in the absence of an actual, because we don't have a constitution,

862
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,200
we don't have a social contract, right?

863
00:54:55,200 --> 00:55:01,640
So we have devs who interpret the code and they say, well, this is what it says and this

864
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,720
would be what changing it involves.

865
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:09,240
And so I think there is a, there is like an element to this whole controversy and I've

866
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:14,560
seen a lot of it as a dev and as a validator who has said, number one, implementing this

867
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:20,200
is radioactive, I'm not going to do it because legal implications and frankly, I do believe

868
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,360
that wallet balances should be immutable.

869
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:27,480
Sorry, I think they should be changed only by transactions by the signer.

870
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,160
You know, it takes a lot for a state or a bank to change your bank balance.

871
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,320
And if we're not going to adhere to that same principle in crypto, what's the point of what

872
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:35,320
we're doing?

873
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:36,720
That's, that's my honest opinion.

874
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:40,720
That's just like my opinion, man, to quote the Big Lebowski, but it is my opinion.

875
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:47,520
But, you know, that, that push, because we don't have this like codified social contract

876
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,200
or like a constitutional whatever, it ends up being the situation where the devs are

877
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:58,120
effectively acting as a judiciary in terms of making a reasoning or a ruling, but we

878
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,880
have no authority to do so because there's no social contract that says we should do

879
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:03,880
so.

880
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,160
But to the devs and the validators, it's kind of obvious when we're in a room together,

881
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,360
we feel like we have a responsibility to the chain because we have a lot of skin in the

882
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:12,360
game, right?

883
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:18,640
And we care about the, the success of the chain over the long term and the principles that

884
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:23,440
we see written into the code when we, you know, we read it and go, okay, okay, this

885
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,520
is our interpretation of how it's going to work and, you know, whether or not this thing

886
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:28,520
should be changed.

887
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,200
So all of that aside, I think there is a really interesting thing here, which may be given

888
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,840
that we don't have a codified constitution.

889
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:41,920
This big impasse we've reached right now, which is essentially devs and validators kind

890
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,920
of saying they're not going to run the code in one way, shape or form, a large portion

891
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,880
of people are not going to interact with it, is actually governance working as well as

892
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,440
it can given the circumstances.

893
00:56:54,440 --> 00:57:02,120
Because that tension between a judiciary and an electorate is literally the definition

894
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,920
of a healthy democracy.

895
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:05,560
It's just that we haven't codified it.

896
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,880
So what's fascinating to me is that this is organically happened, right?

897
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:17,080
We've literally seen a governance system mature to a separation of electorate and judiciary

898
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:23,640
type system by accident in about a week caused by this tension.

899
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:29,760
And the other thing that's interesting is that that separation and that dispute took

900
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:35,120
the vote, which was, you know, we will have different opinions on it, but it's now brought

901
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,760
people back to a position where people on both sides have realized they have to compromise

902
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:46,320
as a result of this, both the devs and validators who are generally on one side, but not exclusively,

903
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:51,640
and members of the community who are generally on the other side, but not exclusively.

904
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,640
But what it's actually meant is that that separation has brought people more towards

905
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:00,560
the center into realizing that a compromise may be necessary.

906
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,240
And like all compromises, everybody will be unhappy.

907
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,880
But like Nels says, we'll have forgotten about it in two weeks.

908
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,000
So the interesting thing for me about what comes out of this is whether or not we can

909
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:16,600
actually arrive at a compromise that we can then take forward and codify, right?

910
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:23,320
Because you could write a political science PhD on this, if so, you know, I mean, heck,

911
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,960
if I didn't have so much bloody rust code to write, I'd write it.

912
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,800
I mean, I doubt I'd get accepted to write it from anywhere, but it would be interesting.

913
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,800
Sorry, I've been round.

914
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,120
I'm going to shut up for a second now.

915
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,640
And I think if the CCN team is watching this, please learn how to compromise, like try to

916
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:44,440
understand what was put out there, try to be able to work a little bit and work, let's

917
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:49,160
work towards the middle a little bit, because I agree that any, the back to the fence situation,

918
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,520
either side of that is pretty brutal.

919
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,400
And it's, I think it's both, both sides are really damaging to the chain.

920
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,920
So it's got to be something in the middle, like it has to be something where we work

921
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:06,680
out where, where we hold up uphold really the code of conduct and laws around the immutable

922
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,280
blockchain at the same time, we're trying to solve something that maybe should not have

923
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:11,280
happened.

924
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,600
And so I think there has to be some work within there to be able to do that.

925
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,880
Could you, could you guys imagine, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but could you

926
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:26,240
imagine the fallout of a past prop 17 where 40% of the validators skip that block and

927
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,600
the chain halts?

928
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:34,920
Like could you imagine that situation where we have a stopped upgrade?

929
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:35,920
Then what?

930
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,960
Like then, then there's nothing to move, nothing's happening.

931
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:40,960
Then evmos.

932
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:46,480
Like, where does that go?

933
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:47,840
How do you communication of that?

934
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,360
How to be able to build that back up?

935
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:50,640
Is that forked at that point?

936
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,560
Like what a freaking disaster.

937
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,360
Like that would be token price goes to zero and we, we have to pull all our code, all

938
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,040
of our smart contract code to Kerberus, right?

939
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,560
You can't sell anything, right?

940
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:02,560
Oh my goodness.

941
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,560
Like, no, I don't know.

942
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:10,000
Kerberus has smart contrast, isn't it?

943
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,000
Or did I imagine that?

944
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,000
No, there's no one.

945
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,500
Is there one in Kerberus?

946
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:14,560
I felt like there was.

947
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,360
If not, if not, maybe now's the time for Dojian Wasm.

948
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:18,600
I've been saying it for months.

949
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:19,600
I've been saying it.

950
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,480
I'm bullish on Dojian Wasm.

951
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:23,480
We could have enriched it.

952
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,280
What are you doing?

953
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:26,280
Enrich me.

954
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,640
Chihuahua forked Juno and Juno partially forked Osmosis.

955
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,800
So, I mean, we, it would be doing ourselves a service to make Dojian Wasm.

956
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,880
That's what I'm saying.

957
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,000
Just fork Chihuahua and launch before they do their launch.

958
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:51,440
Why would you fork Chihuahua when we literally, half the people on this call work on Core

959
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,680
Juno, we could just fork Juno.

960
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,040
Yeah, but it'd just be funnier because Chihuahua forked Juno.

961
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,040
That would be funny.

962
01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:59,040
That would be funny.

963
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,160
It would be kind of low key funny, but also hassle to fork Chihuahua and then incorporate

964
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:09,560
the Juno improvements since their fork of Juno back into the Chihuahua fork to make

965
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,360
Dojian Wasm a Wasm chain.

966
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:14,360
Plot twist.

967
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:19,360
What if Chihuahua did it better?

968
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,240
I mean, we're all, we're all null.

969
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:28,880
As you well know, we're all just copy pastoring our own code and other people's code in this

970
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:29,880
in this chat.

971
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,800
Apart from Jabbit, he probably writes very, very solid code.

972
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:33,800
Don't say that.

973
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,520
I feel like Jabbit's code is chef's kiss.

974
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,800
Don't say the quiet things out loud.

975
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:46,720
Yeah, back to the inside voice, I guess.

976
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,640
So we did have other things that we were going to talk about today, but I think it's probably

977
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:59,960
better just to leave this episode as a Prop 16 talk and then crack on with some other

978
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:01,280
exciting stuff next week.

979
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:02,280
What do you guys think?

980
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:03,640
We're up to an hour.

981
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,800
Yeah, we've got some cool stuff on our slate for next week, aren't we?

982
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:12,720
We can harass Jack about Horcrux next week as well.

983
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,720
So should we do closing question?

984
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:16,720
Yeah.

985
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:17,720
All right, okay.

986
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:19,280
I mean, let's make this a regular thing.

987
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,360
Let's end with some positivity.

988
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,720
So what are we most excited about in the next week?

989
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:31,320
Shultz, do you want to go first because you're like the most wholesome guy here?

990
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,720
Give me a pass and I'll come back around to me.

991
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,320
Okay, well, that was a bit of a damn script.

992
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,320
All right, come on now.

993
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:42,320
Help us out.

994
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,520
We'll see you next week.

995
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,520
Sorry, did you say me?

996
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:49,520
Yeah.

997
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,640
Oh, shit, man.

998
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,520
Can we just, I don't know.

999
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:04,800
There's not much really, I haven't seen much going on in the next week to be honest.

1000
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,800
I've been scoping around.

1001
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:14,920
We've got the craft testnet coming up, which I'm pretty excited about because especially

1002
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:20,720
if they've got some of their application running on that testnet.

1003
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:26,440
I don't know if many people here are gamers, but like I know people are fully into Minecraft

1004
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:31,040
and I'm pretty excited to see if it's workable with what they've come up with and what they've

1005
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:32,040
come up with.

1006
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:39,520
I've been waiting a really long time as well for it, so excited to see that, I guess, is

1007
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,920
one thing that I'm looking forward to.

1008
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,280
And I believe that is imminent, so I can say that's what I'm looking forward to this

1009
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:47,280
week.

1010
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,280
Cool, yeah.

1011
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,360
All right, you, Serpa, with your very slick branding.

1012
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:53,360
Yeah, I get it.

1013
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,000
At least it didn't shut off this week.

1014
01:03:55,000 --> 01:04:00,560
So actually, they just posted the genesis while we were on this call, so things are happening.

1015
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,960
So it looks like they're going to try to launch tomorrow at some point, which is really good,

1016
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:05,960
or at least a testnet.

1017
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,800
It's going to be launched tomorrow.

1018
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:13,760
Crescent Network came out with their test network, so that's going somewhere, I think

1019
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,560
last week my thing I was excited about was Evmos.

1020
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:22,040
So knowing that something was coming and I did hear that this week something is coming,

1021
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:26,160
so it's only Wednesday, but I'm hoping we're going to hear a little bit more coming out

1022
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,200
of the validator structure there about what the plan is going forward.

1023
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,640
I know there was a Twitter space, I think yesterday or today, I missed it, unfortunately.

1024
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,640
So that's exciting to see.

1025
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,920
There's some movement there, and I think there's maybe some decisions within there.

1026
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,400
So that's all good stuff, man.

1027
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:42,400
That's great.

1028
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:51,080
Oh, and obviously, number one on that list is Juno Testnet Upgrades, always the highlight

1029
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,560
of my weeks by far.

1030
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:54,560
So we'll move it.

1031
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,280
It was a very convenient time for Nala as well, I gather.

1032
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,280
Did you?

1033
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,000
I think it's at 3 AM again.

1034
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:01,000
I think it's 4.

1035
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:02,000
It's 4, it's actually better.

1036
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,000
It's 4 AM.

1037
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,920
I think it's 4 AM for you, man.

1038
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,240
Well, it's only an hour earlier than what I usually get up anyways.

1039
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,160
You get up at 5 AM?

1040
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:12,160
Yeah.

1041
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:22,360
I get up at 5 AM and catch up on Discord and Telegram before I get out of it.

1042
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:27,560
I was telling Nala to reduce my hours on other projects because it's not enough time to catch

1043
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:29,800
up with the drama at the moment.

1044
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,000
So those are all good things.

1045
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:33,000
It's a good week.

1046
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,560
Jaby, what are you excited about?

1047
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,760
Nothing, nothing at all.

1048
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:45,280
Big ass thing, which I'm just in Coil Hat, barely skating by in life and hoping to not

1049
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:46,280
die.

1050
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,080
No, it's releasing something soon, Jaby.

1051
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,040
Isn't Pubmost releasing something soon?

1052
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,600
Maybe you have some idea of what Pubmost might be releasing that might be exciting.

1053
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:57,080
I have no idea.

1054
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,080
Absolutely.

1055
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:04,280
The establishment of carbon market on Osmosis, I think that's going to be really interesting

1056
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:18,400
to see what's been elusive to the general public of carbon trading that happens between

1057
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:25,960
large judicial bodies and governments to offset things and to make that more accessible.

1058
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:32,520
I think we'll really drive a lot of interesting use cases as we ultimately begin to agree

1059
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:36,760
that the planet's melting and we don't like that.

1060
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:38,440
But what do I know?

1061
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:39,440
I'm just a guy.

1062
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,560
I should stick into my whole of crypto.

1063
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:49,880
It's also like you say, as soon as we start looking at, let's make the assumption that

1064
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,200
it works and it can go somewhere interesting.

1065
01:06:52,200 --> 01:07:00,120
We're in a position where we have IBC contracts that can do all hell of stuff from publishing

1066
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:06,560
to whatever, to media delivery, to anything your heart could desire, really.

1067
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:12,160
Combining that with the ability to interact with carbon credits on a buying or staking

1068
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,080
basis or whatever.

1069
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:20,240
Imagine medium, but every time you clap, it's actually like the underlying token is in some

1070
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:25,480
way pegged to carbon credits that are actually being traded or given some kind of NGO that

1071
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,080
could action them in a meaningful way.

1072
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:33,720
Look, financialization of everything is unlikely to save the world, let's be honest.

1073
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:35,200
But it could.

1074
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:36,200
You never know.

1075
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,360
We should try everything at this point.

1076
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:44,240
You're saying that you want the clap to be easier to transmit via blockchain.

1077
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:48,640
Yeah, basically, I want to be on the blockchain and have something that's going to make me

1078
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:53,800
feel good about how I'm doing on the planet, but without doing anything to actually change

1079
01:07:53,800 --> 01:08:04,640
my personal impact.

1080
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:11,240
On chain clap coming Q1 to Q2 2022, you heard it here.

1081
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:13,760
Actually, no joke.

1082
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:14,760
No joke.

1083
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:15,760
Might be working on something.

1084
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,160
But yeah, we'll see about that.

1085
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,160
I'm sure we'll see if you come up with yours.

1086
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:27,280
Yeah, you know, since this entire conversation is about Prop 16, I think I'm actually really

1087
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:33,920
excited for the way governance has been developing over the last few months in general.

1088
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:39,080
This isn't over the last next week, but if you look at Osmosis, their governance, it

1089
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:46,400
was almost always maximum yes, every single time, very reliable, same for secret network.

1090
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:52,000
You're starting to see more activity in learning about what's actually happening in the proposal,

1091
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,800
more discussions happening on it.

1092
01:08:54,800 --> 01:09:00,400
I think one downside of it is that there are people that do get really engaged and they

1093
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:04,040
get really excited about it, and they end up retaliating against their validators.

1094
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:10,400
We validated or we voted no, so let's raise it to Reddit and tell everyone to delegate

1095
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:11,400
away.

1096
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:16,360
I think that it's a really important point to make is that the fact that they're actually

1097
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:20,880
voting and engaging should be blotted.

1098
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:25,960
Even on Osmosis, when everything was passing with 30%, 40%, whatever, that means 60% or

1099
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,360
70% weren't voting.

1100
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:31,520
Really the people that aren't engaging with the network, those ones that should be shamed,

1101
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,440
not the ones that vote a certain direction.

1102
01:09:33,440 --> 01:09:37,040
If they vote a certain direction, then just reach out to them and say, hey, why did you

1103
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:38,720
vote this way?

1104
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:40,160
Try and engage a conversation.

1105
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:45,720
I know all of you have engaged in the conversation, and I know many of the validators, they've

1106
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,600
seen these conversations happening and then they get engaged.

1107
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,160
The reality is we're all people.

1108
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,360
We have our own viewpoints.

1109
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:58,160
If you share your viewpoint, then we get to learn it, and then we get to ingest it, and

1110
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:59,160
that might change our vote.

1111
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:04,440
It's really important to note that if a prop comes live on the first and it ends on the

1112
01:10:04,440 --> 01:10:09,000
eighth and they vote yes on the first, that vote doesn't actually matter until the eighth

1113
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:10,000
actually hits.

1114
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:14,480
They can change it, and that's okay.

1115
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:19,760
If you see something that's awry, start a conversation.

1116
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:23,360
Calling people out on Reddit, maybe that's not the best way of going about it, but the

1117
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:26,440
fact that there's so much engagement I think is really exciting.

1118
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:33,320
That's a really good answer, and I'm not going to get into this.

1119
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:38,040
Maybe we should get into it on a future episode.

1120
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,160
For ballots, huh?

1121
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,040
Yeah, that's a thought.

1122
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:43,040
On that note.

1123
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,160
I've been thinking a lot about it recently.

1124
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:49,960
But yeah, I think I'm in the same boat as you.

1125
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,720
I'm really excited for where this is going to take governance yet next.

1126
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:58,600
I think and hope it will come to a good compromise on Juno that means that we can all stay happily

1127
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:02,600
working on it for many years to come and stuff, and it's going to be one of those things you

1128
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,320
can look at in the rearview mirror.

1129
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,800
But regardless of how it pans out, there's going to be a lot of interesting stuff that

1130
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:08,800
happens from governance.

1131
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:13,560
And certainly a lot of the projects that I'm working on and working with people are either

1132
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:19,120
at a smart contract level or a chain level about how we move governance forward.

1133
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,960
And a lot of the ideas we were going like, oh, but what if X happened has just played

1134
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:25,520
out in the last two weeks?

1135
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:31,360
And we just have a concrete use case where we're now proven there we are done.

1136
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,240
We're not wasting our time.

1137
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:34,240
So that's really exciting.

1138
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:41,080
The next week is that I'm going to be hopefully getting Horcrux on Horcrux set up in prod on

1139
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:42,360
our Kerberos validator.

1140
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:46,400
And that's what I'm excited about because I've been wanting to nerd out over that shit

1141
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:47,400
for absolutely.

1142
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:53,000
And I'm probably 16 completely derailed my like, cool, I'm going to get to do some op

1143
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:56,200
stuff and it's going to be sick.

1144
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,520
So that's what I'm excited about the next week, which is really dorky on the exciting

1145
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:00,520
thing.

1146
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:01,520
Like everybody's kind of got the high-minded stuff.

1147
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,840
And I'm like, I get to play around with some new tech.

1148
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:09,920
Yeah, I'm actually excited to see you run Horcrux in prod.

1149
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,000
Well, rather, rather me than you, huh?

1150
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:14,000
Yeah.

1151
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:19,360
Well, I think everyone a couple of weeks back when he said that he was joining Juno using

1152
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,600
Horcrux, I think we were all like, report back.

1153
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,200
We all need to know how it went.

1154
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,240
We want to know if it's a really bad idea.

1155
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:32,400
Honestly, I've been looking at Horcrux for like six months.

1156
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:37,120
Like Jack put out some versions of it a long time ago, never been game enough to pull the

1157
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:38,120
trigger.

1158
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:46,520
But I'm pretty sure that strange love run virtually all of their main nets on Horcrux.

1159
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:50,320
So it can't be that unstable.

1160
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:56,560
Anyway, do we want to wrap it up?

1161
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:57,560
Let's do it.

1162
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:58,560
Okay.

1163
01:12:58,560 --> 01:12:59,560
So everybody, thanks for joining us.

1164
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,040
This has been Game of Nodes.

1165
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,560
Don't forget to like and subscribe.

1166
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:11,200
New episodes every week at 2300 hours UTC.

1167
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:15,080
And episodes will go up on podcast players afterwards.

1168
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:16,920
Thanks to the man with the plan, Usurper.

1169
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,200
And I just pointed the wrong direction because I'm mirrored.

1170
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,200
Hey.

1171
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:25,120
And I'm not actually sure that the tiling is the same for everybody.

1172
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:29,400
So yeah, so you can access wherever you like.

1173
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,040
And obviously we're going to be doing the live streams here on YouTube.

1174
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,880
We're also going to be having new guests on every week and we're going to start announcing

1175
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:35,880
those coming out.

1176
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:37,400
So moving forward.

1177
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:43,040
So follow us on Twitter at Game of Nodes on the score at the end because we're sly like

1178
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:44,040
that.

1179
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:49,640
And we'll be announcing guests and stuff as we know them and shout us out with any other

1180
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,520
topics that you think we should cover.

1181
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,640
And we probably will.

1182
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:58,680
Just not in this episode because we end up talking about Prop 16 for the entire thing.

1183
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,560
So yeah, thanks very much for listening guys.

1184
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:12,520
Say bye everybody.