WEBVTT

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from

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Independent Validator Teams. Hello and welcome

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to Game of Nodes, a bi -weekly and occasionally

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slightly more than bi -weekly podcast from Independent

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Validator Nodes. This week we have Brendan from

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Whisper Nodes with us, old friend of the treehouse

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of the bunker. of whatever it is, whichever nefarious

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location that we are doing all of our plotting

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at any given time. And recently joined Flipside,

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right? That's the news in the in the Brendan

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bunker. Yeah, happy to be over there kind of

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getting away from the validator world and into

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the data world. The getting away from the validator

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world into the data world sounds a little bit

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like out of the frying pan into the fire. Is

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it, I'm guessing in your day, in your day to

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day right now, just like everybody in tech, you're

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hearing the words, words, AI about a thousand

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times a day, right? Jesus Christ. Yeah. Yeah.

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And I'm using, and I'm using this shit too. I'm

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trying to anyway. Yeah. What kind of, what kind

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of stuff, what kind of stuff for? Just like automating.

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All day to day actions that I can. So with flip

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side, I'm doing sales and account management.

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So, you know, I have a CRM and I kind of have

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a lot of follow ups to do conversations to track.

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So I built an MCP server and then hooked that

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into Claude. So basically I can do everything

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with work by clicking a button, speaking to Claude

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and then Claude will go use the MCP server to

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make a bunch of API calls. So it's pretty cool.

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That's pretty sick. Yeah. I guess that's what

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happens when you hire somebody that used to be

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like running essentially mission critical stuff

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for years in a stressful situation to do something

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that is not strictly technical. It's like, well,

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this is like a lot less stressful than everything

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else I've been doing. I guess I'll just come

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out with a great way of automating this that

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takes some of the pain away from my bollocks.

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Yeah, I feel like we like to over -engineer everything,

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hence whatever the hell Schulte has going on

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in his background that he was talking about pre

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-show. My mini data center, yes. So if you've

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got a Lavender 5 testnet participation coming

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up, it's going to be, the action's going to be

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happening from behind Schulte, right? Most, well,

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it depends on, probably, probably, probably.

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You know, I'm not good at business like the rest

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of you, but I remember GCSE business studies.

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You get those fixed costs and that's all upside

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baby, right? That's how business works. That's

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what I've heard. Yes. Um, how much is, how much

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has your, if you don't mind saying like how much

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has your, uh, your mini data center set you back

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so far? Uh, Well, it depends on what you build

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in there, right? So like just in hardware, about

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$12 ,000. Um, yeah. And most of that is in hard

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drives. So the second you say hard drives, you

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know that null is going to appear on the cool,

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right? That's right. Well, like this one is 700,

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$800. And there's basically that this machine

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right here is full of them. That's for the archive

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nodes. Um, so yeah. So quite a bit. So just for

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hardware, 12 ,000 servers themselves. The pricing

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for the service themselves are fairly cheap,

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but RAM and hard drives is just ridiculously

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expensive. And then on top of that, I have new

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networking gear because previously I couldn't

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create VLANs in my network. Now I can, so now

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if someone decides to jump into the servers,

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then they can't access everything else on the

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network. And then I'm also working on building

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out basically a whole house. Universal power

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supply so that if power goes out the nodes would

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still be running so I should have in theory upwards

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of a week of runtime if all power goes out and

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then there's like redundant network providers

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and it's it's been a whole project and a lot

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of fun this this is definitely the sort of project

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that somebody does when they're finally getting

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some sleep uh so I can yeah I can only assume

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that what that is what has happened and so it's

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just unleashed this tidal wave of what seems

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to be to be an exhausting amount of energy and

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planning for for what is to be fair a cool project

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but it yeah i mean it's been fine um a lot of

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it is like so like with the devaluation of the

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dollar we are paying about three thousand dollars

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more per month than we were like six months ago

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with no change in servers right so like twelve

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thousand dollars sounds like a lot until suddenly

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that's actually four months of server costs And

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so basically, as I'm shifting things over from

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servers under these and other servers, it's going

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to eat up all that cost really quickly. Yeah,

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it kind of makes sense when I used to work for

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like agency type setups, we quite often had like,

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you know, customer type, you know, like a staging

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server for a customer or like pre production

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or whatever. be like, hey, what's this thing

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under the desk that's beeping? It's like, oh,

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that's like Jeff's old server from home. We just

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stuck eight hard drives on it and juiced the

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RAM. And that's staging. When you log into staging,

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it's the one on the desk. Don't fucking unplug

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it. So I feel like this is a well trodden path.

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I mean, we'd actually looked into it in our shared

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office. But unfortunately, in terms of our lease,

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we can't just rack up. stuff and run a data center

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from our shared office because Well, so so there

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is a thing in the police basically saying that

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we can't run a data center from that But it is

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quite specifically a data center. So I wonder

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Yeah, it's like there's like I think it's because

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I think it's because the the whole building's

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networking is like obviously done By it's managed

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by the people in the building Um, and then you

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have like the networking and everything for your

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unit and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think

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it must be something to do with like the network

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switch or damage their hardware or their use

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somewhere. Like there's some, there must be some

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reason that they're a bit iffy. I mean, it might,

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it might just straight up be that they don't

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want to fire. And they, well, and power's really

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expensive, right? I mean, what do I pay for that?

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No, but we, we, we pay for it as part of our

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realm. We have a power agreement. Oh, actually,

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I say that very confidently. Maybe we do. Maybe

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we did. Maybe there is something in that. Maybe

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that is it. Are you burning a lot of power then?

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Not actually all that much. These servers are

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running about like 30 to 40 Watts each, but that

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still means there's a constant 250 watt draw.

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So six kilowatt hours a day. So a dollar a day.

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Oh, wow. I wish you I wish we could run more

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stuff on them. Do you remember when the people

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were like home hacking those Raspberry Pi blades

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where you did like a cluster of Raspberry Pi

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is in a big stack. That was the coolest shit,

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man. That was, yeah, that is actually, this rack

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is actually intended exactly for that. This is

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by desk pie, the desk pie team. So it's intended

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for creating racks of raspberry pies. And I actually

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have a bunch of modules that come with it that

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I was just like, man, throw that in the corner.

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Did you build any weird stuff with it? Like my

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buddy actually just started playing with those

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raspberry pies and he took an old cell phone

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and he made it into like a nanny cam. So like

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I wonder what's going on on Schultz's shelf over

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there. He's definitely got some some spyware

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or something. Well, no, mine's pretty run -of

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-the -mill. It's all it's literally just mini

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PCs. They're effectively laptops without screens

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really. They're even running laptop chips. So

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which are surprisingly powerful these days. So

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like the headster 7950 axis, right? These are

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basically as powerful as them. And that and those

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little cubes, they're technically a little bit

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less powerful because they have fewer cores.

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But in terms of like the core themselves, it's

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they're absolutely insane. Like we can you can

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stick on these little things is outrageous. Wow.

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Interesting. I can see this is this how you get

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to it, right? You're just like, well, the facts

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you're providing are interesting data points

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for service that I do not need. Um, yeah. Well,

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I looked into servers before and like talking

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to artifacts, he was like, yeah, well, you can,

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you know, get a server for $2 ,000 and then you

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can get your disc and the Ram for it. And I was

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always like, that seems pretty ridiculous. Each

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one of those is $300 with the CPU. So you just

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supply the Ram and the disc. So H one ends up

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being, you know, six or $700 instead. That's

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a much better proposition. I mean, I've got three

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years of three you have rack space, like literally

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here in my desk, because I took out the old Roland

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JV synth. I've been getting rid of some musical

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kit that I haven't been using. We still got all

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the modular shit over here. Don't worry. Don't

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worry. Longtime fans of the podcast. We still

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got lots of wires and synthesizers and stuff.

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But the one of the Roland JV synths has gone.

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And I've got three U of rack space and an isolated

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power strip. So maybe I should set my house on

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fire by putting some racks in here. Huh? That

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would be cool. Maybe foolish. I don't know. Suddenly

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my interest in this crazy scheme has been reinvigorated.

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What's the Homer Simpson line? I find your ideas

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intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your

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newsletter. Is, is that, I think that's how he

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ends up in the cold, isn't it? That's the line.

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That sounds right. That's the, I feel this is

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like something you said, but would know. Um,

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so yeah. Okay. Cool. So big, big battery, big

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solar array. Does that, does the viability of

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it? Um, I mean, you're in, I mean, you're in

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the States, but I think you're in a sunnier,

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it's sunny away. You are then, you know, England.

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No, um, it's actually about the same as where

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you are. In Oregon? Yeah. It's mostly cloudy.

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He gave away his location now. Now we know where

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all his servers are. Somewhere in the very small

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state of Oregon. Yep. Yep. Somewhere in Oregon,

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near avocados, near coffee. It could be anywhere.

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Absolutely anywhere. Yeah. No, it's quite, it's

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generally cloudy. It's like cloudy something

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like 210 days a year, I want to say. Oh shit.

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Okay. So it's like anti Denver. Yeah. Yeah. So

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basically what that means is I, my solar panels,

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I had to go really overboard in order to actually

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be able to cover my energy usage. Yeah. We've

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got, I think, uh, I want to say we've got like

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10 or 12 on our roof. It's not like a massive,

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I perceive it's probably a smaller house than

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yours. Cause you know, again, England, um, and

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we like, we did not obviously cover up. But I

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think again, part of that problem is also battery.

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Like we don't, we actually don't have a battery

00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:48.740
in the house because the way, at the risk of

00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:52.940
becoming gaming nodes, the, the energy subsidy

00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:57.059
and government policy podcast. The way it used

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to work for getting solar panels in this country

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was simply to incentivize it. You sell your power

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back to the grid. So every house, probably the

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same as you guys, right? Every house has an inverter.

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Mine is not under my desk. I think it's in the

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toilet there. It's just under the toilet. Great

00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:19.679
positioning. But you can fit it where you can.

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But it does mean that there wasn't like at the

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time a big incentive to put in batteries and

00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:28.279
then that came like the technology for batteries

00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.100
kind of came along like maybe five years after

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the original subsidy for solar panels. So a lot

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of people that got solar panels got solar panels,

00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.399
then batteries became good, but it wasn't like

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necessarily joined up for everybody. Some people

00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:43.179
who got solar panels later got batteries and

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solar panels, especially with like electric vehicles.

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It makes a lot more sense, right? Yeah, so so

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the way my setup works, the solar panels are

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not connected to the grid, they connected directly

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to the battery pack. And so the battery pack

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then basically pushes the power to the house,

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but it stops there, it can't push power back

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into the grid, which has ups and downs. The good

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thing is that, in essence, the house chooses

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the battery first. So that's why if the grid

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goes out, it's literally zero millisecond turnover

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time for like the house to have power because

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it's powering from the battery. But you can't

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get any payback if you overproduce. Okay. The

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guys that set my solar up originally, they forgot

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to put the inverter or they they forgot to put

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a switch. So when I got hooked up to the power

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company and they actually put the grid through

00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:41.700
my house, it blew all my solar and all my inverters.

00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:47.110
No, no, that's insane. Puerto Rico things Chelsea

00:13:47.110 --> 00:13:49.490
Chelsea knows I don't want to talk about Puerto

00:13:49.490 --> 00:13:51.769
Rico to be honest with you. I'm still like recovering

00:13:51.769 --> 00:13:55.250
That was a tough like six months of my life.

00:13:55.429 --> 00:13:59.049
We're roughing it out here, man I'm just still

00:13:59.049 --> 00:14:04.049
angry that so So for for dr. Frey over here.

00:14:04.110 --> 00:14:07.309
There was a proposal after a hurricane Maria

00:14:07.309 --> 00:14:11.789
I think where they were going to in effect get

00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:14.919
rid of a central power plant in southern in Puerto

00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.440
Rico and instead do micro grids because Puerto

00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.360
Rico has sun basically all the time, right? Except

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.139
like at 310 PM, which it pours down rain for

00:14:24.139 --> 00:14:25.460
a minute and a half and then it goes back to

00:14:25.460 --> 00:14:28.600
sun. So they're gonna set up like 30 micro grids

00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:30.879
in the island, all paid for the government. And

00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:32.759
it was like totally reasonably cost. And then

00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:34.360
there'd be solar panels, you know, all over whatever.

00:14:34.750 --> 00:14:36.509
So I don't know what happened but something with

00:14:36.509 --> 00:14:39.309
the US government was like absolutely not we

00:14:39.309 --> 00:14:41.429
can't get rid of fossil fuels You guys are so

00:14:41.429 --> 00:14:43.830
funny and they vetoed it and so now there's an

00:14:43.830 --> 00:14:48.210
even worse system now Yeah, so they went back

00:14:48.210 --> 00:14:51.350
to the original power plant and they did something

00:14:51.350 --> 00:14:55.309
and we were losing power weekly Oh, yeah every

00:14:55.309 --> 00:14:59.970
week. That's why I had to get the solar So no

00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.440
servers in my house I was going to say that was

00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:04.480
going to be my next question. Was it, uh, was

00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.519
the motivation for getting the solar brand and

00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.580
the, uh, uh, the, the whisper node, uh, test

00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:12.899
net set up, or was it just like, you just tired

00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.139
of not having wifi cause we're sitting in a dark

00:15:15.139 --> 00:15:18.340
room. Pretty much. Yeah. It was like, if I needed

00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:22.460
to work, I needed power. Yeah. Okay. That figures.

00:15:23.179 --> 00:15:27.360
Right. Um, solar is relatively cheap in Puerto

00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.580
Rico, right? When I talked to my landlord there,

00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:32.159
she was like, Oh, yeah, I've got this big old

00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.299
array and it costs like $1 ,100. I was like,

00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:39.379
why? Like 10 % of what it was. I think I paid

00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:43.419
like 20k for mine, but I'm like, pretty much

00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:48.019
off grid. So it's not too bad. I think 26 panels.

00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:58.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big battery for that. So, um,

00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.460
god damn, I'm just sorry that just that's just

00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:05.029
That's back to like small European houses and

00:16:05.029 --> 00:16:07.789
small European perspective. You're like, that's

00:16:07.789 --> 00:16:11.190
a lot of fucking. There's like a, there's like

00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:15.049
a house I cycle past on my way to work most days

00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:18.850
where they've obviously decided that they just

00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:21.629
want done with paying for power. And they have

00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:23.669
literally like all the way down their roof and

00:16:23.669 --> 00:16:25.490
then kind of on the side of the house. And I'm

00:16:25.490 --> 00:16:27.429
kind of wondering whether it's actually illegal

00:16:27.429 --> 00:16:29.980
because doesn't seem like the sort of thing that

00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:32.019
somebody would say, yeah, you could just like

00:16:32.019 --> 00:16:33.679
string up solar panels inside your house, but

00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:35.820
on the side of the house, and then their entire

00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:37.700
front garden and then all down the side of the

00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:40.740
house visible from the road is just solar panels.

00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:42.700
And they've sort of been set up just I think

00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:45.700
so a person can like squeeze sideways past them

00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:47.960
to get to the rear of the house. But I'm like,

00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:50.299
I always like cycle past it. I think like if

00:16:50.299 --> 00:16:53.139
you need to like I don't know, like take a sofa

00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:56.019
through your back door or carry a ladder around

00:16:56.019 --> 00:16:58.059
the back of your house. Like how are you going

00:16:58.059 --> 00:16:59.960
to do it? How are you going to do it? Like there's

00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:02.779
no, I guess the answer is probably try and carry

00:17:02.779 --> 00:17:05.799
it through the house, but like inconvenient.

00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:08.259
I mean, I guess they obviously thought of that

00:17:08.259 --> 00:17:09.599
and they went, yeah, actually the number of times

00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.480
I had to carry a sofa through my house, probably

00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.359
one in 20 years and free and you pay for this

00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.539
and get free power. So probably it's again, previous

00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:21.450
comment don't understand business. There we go.

00:17:23.329 --> 00:17:25.289
So yeah, speaking of speaking of not understanding

00:17:25.289 --> 00:17:29.490
business, that wasn't really a good setup. But

00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:33.289
so Brendan, what made you what made you decide

00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:36.970
to go and work with flip side? It's kind of the

00:17:36.970 --> 00:17:40.589
perfect marrying of all my web three experience.

00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:44.309
So I used to work for Secret Network doing growth

00:17:44.309 --> 00:17:47.200
stuff very closely with Tor Bear. uh head of

00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.819
marketing and I ran the ambassador program over

00:17:49.819 --> 00:17:54.079
there and kind of just through that whole experience

00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.059
saw how projects don't really operate like web

00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.700
two projects where they are using data to inform

00:18:00.700 --> 00:18:03.799
their decisions they're just kind of like throwing

00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.880
money like all over the place and hoping that

00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:12.740
they have roi somewhere so uh yeah and then obviously

00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:15.799
got into running whisper node after that validators

00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.180
Wait, I thought WhisperNode came before then.

00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:20.900
I didn't realize WhisperNode was after you started

00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:25.079
then. Oh yeah. Whoa, okay. This changes everything

00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.759
for me. So how did you start with Secret Network

00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.160
then? Like what was the catalyst there? Man,

00:18:30.339 --> 00:18:35.299
I was an ambassador back when they were Enigma

00:18:35.299 --> 00:18:41.839
in 2017. Like after the ICO craze back then.

00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:45.769
Wow. Okay. So you are, you are OG or as OG as

00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:48.509
you can be in the Cosmos kind of space. Yeah.

00:18:48.549 --> 00:18:51.809
Yeah. Well, they were, they were one of the first

00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:55.650
kind of Cosmos app chains. They were, I think

00:18:55.650 --> 00:18:59.009
they had smart contracts second only to Luna,

00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:01.609
if I recall. Wow. Yeah. That would make sense

00:19:01.609 --> 00:19:03.509
based on that. Yeah. I think, I think that's

00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:05.250
about right. Something like that because they,

00:19:05.349 --> 00:19:08.170
because they were both them and Luna were on

00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:11.529
Uh, like a pre version one stable version of

00:19:11.529 --> 00:19:15.390
Cosmism, weren't they? Yep. Exactly. Yeah. It

00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:18.849
was, yeah. And Schultze just, uh, learned the

00:19:18.849 --> 00:19:21.470
validator game. I didn't know what the hell I

00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:23.470
was doing, to be honest, when I first started

00:19:23.470 --> 00:19:26.829
running it. Uh, and, uh, yeah. Figured it out

00:19:26.829 --> 00:19:30.589
over time. Obviously had Ghost join the team,

00:19:30.589 --> 00:19:35.089
uh, at some point in November, 2021. And, uh,

00:19:35.089 --> 00:19:37.589
yeah, just kept. learning more about the tech

00:19:37.589 --> 00:19:41.309
side of things. And flip side was like this perfect

00:19:41.309 --> 00:19:46.009
marrying of data driven growth, which I could

00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:48.470
understand the value proposition right away having

00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:51.230
kind of worked in growth in web three. And then

00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:56.069
they also have an infra arm where they run validators

00:19:56.069 --> 00:19:58.390
for the projects that they're doing growth with.

00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:02.329
So you are not doing the validator operation

00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.789
side, you are just doing the data. Okay. Do you

00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:07.309
criticize the NoteOps guys? Are you like, you

00:20:07.309 --> 00:20:10.549
bunch of fools? I've been doing this for two

00:20:10.549 --> 00:20:15.049
years. I know, right? No, they're, they're pretty

00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:17.609
good over there. They're like really solid guys.

00:20:17.789 --> 00:20:22.309
Um, but it is funny having kind of people that

00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:24.730
are way more technically knowledgeable than I

00:20:24.730 --> 00:20:28.329
am having, you know, web two sys admin experience,

00:20:28.329 --> 00:20:31.140
you know, spitting up all kinds of Docker containers

00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:34.200
and over again, over engineering, like everything.

00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.140
And then they're coming to me asking for like

00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:41.420
advice on running Cosmos nodes. And I'm just

00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:44.440
like, why? You hit start and make sure you have

00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:49.079
a seed and then you're good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.180
It reminds me of like when, when I mean all the

00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:56.799
shit that like I look at now and I look at, um,

00:20:57.690 --> 00:20:59.609
the company's past financials. And I go, well,

00:20:59.650 --> 00:21:03.230
that was kind of thick. But when we first started

00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:05.509
running nodes, it was like straight off the bat.

00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:08.910
Like, it was, I think the first nodes that I

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:11.809
ran were when I had an enterprise contract that

00:21:11.809 --> 00:21:14.250
was winding down at the time, right? So I was

00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:20.569
going from like day job where it was all like,

00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:23.009
to be fair, what I've been doing was actually

00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.910
architecting a system that was completely on

00:21:25.910 --> 00:21:31.039
demand. So it was probably the cutting edge platform

00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.960
-wise of what that business had in their entire

00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.720
tech stack. But it was like all AWS, all serverless,

00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:44.019
on -demand databases, on -demand nightly snapshots,

00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.519
all of it just completely, just like magically

00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:52.460
automate all the things. If nobody touches any

00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:54.819
of the websites, basically nothing's going to

00:21:54.819 --> 00:21:59.599
cost you any money. uh if it gets a lot of traffic

00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:01.380
then suddenly it's going to get expensive kind

00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:05.480
of thing blah blah blah like um and it did it

00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.539
was like a covid response for a lot for a large

00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:11.099
company large organization uh project and to

00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.119
be fair like the costs and everything on it were

00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.859
pretty good like the tech was not gonna lie pretty

00:22:15.859 --> 00:22:18.700
awesome the code was the code was legendary it

00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:21.940
was architected by this great guy um and then

00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:23.579
came straight out of that into Cosmos and was

00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:25.180
just like, yeah, I guess we just run this on

00:22:25.180 --> 00:22:28.619
AWS, right? How bad could it be? And it was just

00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.000
like over -engineered, absolutely everything

00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.259
overspent on absolutely everything for too long.

00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:37.440
And you know, like, I always just tell the story

00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.380
now of like, for all of the monitoring and automated

00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:42.440
monitoring and backup monitoring stuff that we

00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.700
used to run in that setup, like had this moment

00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:48.559
of clarity when, I can't remember which network

00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.240
it was now. I think it might have been maybe

00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.319
when Mars. No, it wasn't. No, it was the second,

00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:56.920
you know, cyber attack. A monitoring stack got,

00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:59.559
um, like, you know, responses that it couldn't

00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.599
really understand. And the monitoring just like

00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.720
fell below, yeah, some threshold monitoring,

00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.920
which went, they really know what's happening.

00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.160
Um, notify and like, didn't even come through

00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.819
for page GD because I was asleep and I had like,

00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:14.559
or whatever. And I just like, notify me that

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.319
something a bit weird happened. Fuck off. Meanwhile,

00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.150
I had like this little, um, bit of code that

00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:22.869
call AWS Lambda. I don't think it's ever actually

00:23:22.869 --> 00:23:24.869
cost us any money because it's never breached

00:23:24.869 --> 00:23:27.150
the whatever it is million executions you need

00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:29.890
to actually pay any money for it. And it just

00:23:29.890 --> 00:23:33.170
like, it just says, Hey, I'm alive. Hey, this,

00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:34.970
we used to have this on our Cosmos Nodes. I was

00:23:34.970 --> 00:23:36.849
just like one, one morning I wrote it in like

00:23:36.849 --> 00:23:39.150
five minutes because I was paranoid about Cosmos

00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:41.289
Nodes being down and just goes, Hey, I'm alive.

00:23:41.650 --> 00:23:44.250
Hey, I'm alive. Hey, I'm alive. And if it doesn't

00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:46.309
say, Hey, I'm alive for like three minutes in

00:23:46.309 --> 00:23:49.609
a row, just It just called me, just called my

00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:51.849
phone. And we have a slightly more complicated

00:23:51.849 --> 00:23:54.789
version of this now, but it just calls the ops

00:23:54.789 --> 00:23:57.809
shared phone number, which is like gets really

00:23:57.809 --> 00:24:02.130
to everybody. And that fucking caught it. That

00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.430
stupid piece of code. It's like a bash script

00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:06.349
at the time. It was like bash script running

00:24:06.349 --> 00:24:09.440
in a crud job. Hey, there's nothing wrong with

00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:12.200
that. All the other shit, all the over -engineered

00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:14.420
stuff we had, we had like, what was it called?

00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:17.559
The AWS ops work observability thing on the,

00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:19.900
on the boxes and everything. They call us like,

00:24:20.259 --> 00:24:22.440
they were like, yeah, the Ram looks okay. I don't

00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:24.640
know what the fucking problem is. Like, yeah,

00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:26.660
the Ram looks okay. Cause there's no transactions

00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:30.980
going through that server. Like, Oh man. So yeah,

00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:34.160
that's a very long rambling story to say over

00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.769
-engineering shit. I feel. I feel that deeply.

00:24:38.170 --> 00:24:41.230
I feel that deeply. Do you guys, did you run

00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:44.970
like, or do you run? There's like that really

00:24:44.970 --> 00:24:47.990
complicated diagram out there for Cosmos with

00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:52.349
like the three sentry nodes and like three horcrux

00:24:52.349 --> 00:24:56.150
signers and then like a private, a private subnet

00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:58.950
and like all this shit because the engineers

00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:01.170
at Flipside were actually asking me about that

00:25:01.170 --> 00:25:04.349
chart. And I was like, no, man. I'm a small node

00:25:04.349 --> 00:25:07.890
operator. Like I can't afford, you know, I can't

00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:10.349
afford three century nodes, a validator node

00:25:10.349 --> 00:25:13.390
and three Horcrux nodes for every single network

00:25:13.390 --> 00:25:17.789
I'm running. That's crazy. Yeah. So first of

00:25:17.789 --> 00:25:22.609
all, no, I don't. Second of all, I think that's

00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:24.490
strange love. The makers of Horcrux have the

00:25:24.490 --> 00:25:26.829
most interesting setup for their Horcrux. They

00:25:26.829 --> 00:25:29.829
keep their Horcrux nodes on the node of the signer.

00:25:29.869 --> 00:25:31.690
And then they only have one signer look at one

00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:34.519
node. so it basically gets rid of the the one

00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:36.859
downside of Horcrux which is latency and they

00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:39.099
just like pound their own node it's absolutely

00:25:39.099 --> 00:25:40.940
insane and the way they do explain to me in the

00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:43.960
way like Kubernetes interacts with it that's

00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:46.720
off topic but it's interesting and yeah some

00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.039
wild guys their setup is pretty cool um we used

00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:52.819
to run centuries for all the Cosmos nodes networks

00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:56.640
we did um that's why ultimately we didn't make

00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.980
much money Right. Yeah, we were doing it in the

00:26:00.980 --> 00:26:03.420
beginning, and then we were like, this is not

00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.079
sustainable. We're probably losing money at this

00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:08.059
point. Yeah, I think that's basically why we

00:26:08.059 --> 00:26:10.579
lost money on StarGaze, despite being there from

00:26:10.579 --> 00:26:12.759
the start and having good delegations. Because

00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:15.759
for the first maybe nine months of the network,

00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:20.099
we were running. Hey, look at this guy. we were

00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:22.599
running a full century architecture on AWS and

00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.000
AWS, like, you know, I think we were, I think

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.200
we were running for the centuries, like we were

00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.640
running smaller boxes, but like we're still running

00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:37.420
an R5XL. Oh my God. Yeah. Well, cause the, the

00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:39.440
cause and whys and chokes, like you just, you

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:41.940
need, you need that is, is brand bottleneck.

00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:46.200
You just need like 32 or 64 or somebody can do,

00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:50.390
somebody can do the, um, the Ram bottleneck attack.

00:26:50.549 --> 00:26:52.990
Do you remember like, were you on the early Juno

00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:59.089
test nets? Do you remember the one where me and

00:26:59.089 --> 00:27:01.549
JunoSwapBen took down the network while we were

00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:04.890
drinking one night and then told all the validators

00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:06.970
what we'd done afterward? We just like sent a

00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:09.170
message around saying, hey guys, we had a thought.

00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:12.450
We tried the thought. We did the thing. Sorry,

00:27:12.509 --> 00:27:14.849
we need to restart. We need to regenerate this.

00:27:15.309 --> 00:27:17.329
I vaguely remember that. I was like going from

00:27:17.329 --> 00:27:19.589
test net. What was it two to three or three to

00:27:19.589 --> 00:27:22.869
four one maybe one to two actually it was very

00:27:22.869 --> 00:27:25.589
early yeah it was like okay i do vaguely remember

00:27:25.589 --> 00:27:29.049
i think it might have been just post juno launch

00:27:29.049 --> 00:27:31.230
but like literally like three or four days post

00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:34.470
launch something like that yeah um on the test

00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:37.730
net um but that that attack is what happened

00:27:37.730 --> 00:27:40.029
if you if you're one of the nodes that's ram

00:27:40.029 --> 00:27:43.190
is too was too low at least in that first period

00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:45.609
of time when cosmism was out in the wild it was

00:27:45.609 --> 00:27:49.210
very very easy um, for a developer to work out

00:27:49.210 --> 00:27:51.869
a way of triggering that attack, that particular

00:27:51.869 --> 00:27:53.970
attack. And that's why a lot of the networks

00:27:53.970 --> 00:27:57.549
at the time, um, we shared what we had done with

00:27:57.549 --> 00:27:59.730
other Cosmos networks. And that's why a lot of

00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:02.049
networks at the time sort of said, Oh, actually,

00:28:02.609 --> 00:28:06.009
um, it's not immediately like, it's not really

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:08.650
an attack per se because the transaction is valid

00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:12.670
and it can get through. But if you're, if, if

00:28:12.670 --> 00:28:15.569
enough of your consensus set doesn't have the

00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:17.940
brand. they're going to choke, then the block

00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:20.380
will stall. And it's actually quite difficult

00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:23.900
and costly to get that back online. Um, and what

00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:26.440
we of course found was that when it chokes, some

00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.039
people start messing with their nodes and their

00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:29.980
double sign and the whole thing goes to fuck

00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:33.900
really quickly. Um, because they're down or they're

00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.319
like, why am I down? It's like, well, you're

00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.680
down because you know, it's choked, but if you

00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:40.420
mess with it, it's definitely going to be down

00:28:40.420 --> 00:28:45.480
down. Ah, good times. Welcome to the party, Noel.

00:28:45.690 --> 00:28:49.150
Hey, yeah, I'm like mid -transit driving back

00:28:49.150 --> 00:28:53.529
home to Brisbane from another place, so I stopped

00:28:53.529 --> 00:28:59.750
at the pub. What does that sign say? That's Tooey's.

00:28:59.750 --> 00:29:02.630
Tooey's new. Yeah, Tooey's. All right, I'm gonna

00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:05.049
see if I can find it. And this is, if you're

00:29:05.049 --> 00:29:09.880
around, this is the top pub in Urella. but yeah

00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.140
it's cold as fuck yeah not as cold as like that

00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:14.099
other place where i pulled up outside of a cafe

00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:17.880
once but it's still pretty cold um was that the

00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.220
one in america where you turned off the podcast

00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:25.619
yeah yeah that one yeah hey brendan what's going

00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:28.619
on no wait so you're not in australia yeah yeah

00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.140
yeah i'm in australia yeah i'm just uh oh man

00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:35.220
i'm in transit driving um i always picture australia

00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:37.519
as being blazing hot i didn't know it gets cold

00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.210
there Off or upside down. It's always surprising

00:29:40.210 --> 00:29:42.470
when he's actually writes it out Does the was

00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:44.750
the water rotate the opposite way when you flush

00:29:44.750 --> 00:29:47.690
the toilet kind of thing the opposite to the

00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:52.029
northern hemisphere? Yeah Yeah, wait, it actually

00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:56.430
does. Yeah, you know that No, I just assumed

00:29:56.430 --> 00:29:59.970
it was a joke I thought it was a joke too It

00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:05.529
actually does physics hmm, huh? Okay. Yeah, it's

00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:11.839
I don't gravity Rama, Americans are stupid, man.

00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:17.579
I didn't deserve that. I see you've played knifey

00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:22.799
spoonie before. So in the summer time it's hot

00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.920
and in the winter time it's cold, if you can

00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:29.599
imagine. So it's not like, you know, Northern

00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:32.640
America winter cold, but it gets to zero and

00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.930
that's enough to freeze my balls off. yeah i

00:30:35.930 --> 00:30:38.609
mean i am wearing shorts right now and it's i

00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:42.990
think maybe eight degrees um which is really

00:30:42.990 --> 00:30:46.670
shrinking my balls um but yeah what's been happening

00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:49.029
i'm a little bit late because uh those road works

00:30:49.029 --> 00:30:53.430
so what have we been talking about uh yeah my

00:30:53.430 --> 00:30:56.650
data center uh talked about oh the lab puerto

00:30:56.650 --> 00:30:59.410
rico schultz and i have been like talking about

00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:02.509
the lab in the in the side chat and uh is it

00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:04.920
like is it product complete now? Did you get

00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.319
your second incident? You're good in today? You're

00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:13.759
good? No. So funny thing. Yesterday, the network

00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:16.539
engineer actually came out for laying the next

00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:19.660
line. And I'm in a flag lot. And so like, I'm

00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:21.500
basically there's a mode of houses around me.

00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:23.680
And I'm looking, I can see out my window and

00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.319
see down like down the street, where he's looking

00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:28.799
at the power line. And he's looking at all confused.

00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:30.619
And I was like, Oh, I should I should I should

00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:33.319
go see what he's doing. And I walk over there

00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:35.940
and he's like, this isn't going to happen. I'm

00:31:35.940 --> 00:31:37.440
like, well, what's the problem? Like the fibers

00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.259
already ran. What, why is this an issue? He goes,

00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.720
do you see that port up there? We can't fill

00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:46.880
that port. We can't fill the port. Like I've

00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:48.480
been talking to you guys for months. Like, why

00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.039
is this, why is this an issue? Um, so I have

00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.619
to get DSL as the backup internet rather than

00:31:53.619 --> 00:32:00.099
fiber. That is not ideal. Yeah. Um, I guess the

00:32:00.099 --> 00:32:02.900
engineers are, are. They have to take a cost

00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:04.859
analysis on if whether it's worth it and me being

00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:07.900
a peon It won't be worth it. So over here if

00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:11.420
you're like if you know it if the fiber doesn't

00:32:11.420 --> 00:32:14.519
run out the front of your house You have to get

00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.539
a build but they just charge you that it's like

00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:21.480
it'll cost you ten grand Well, I've got fiber

00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.759
I've got five gig internet right now. It's just

00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:25.920
I wanted the backup and the backup would have

00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:29.220
been 500 Meg. Oh, so you got your business internet

00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.700
I have my business internet. Yeah. I was trying

00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:34.299
to get another backup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:35.960
so I'm not that concerned. I'm a little annoyed,

00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.640
but it's better than a kick in the nuts, I suppose.

00:32:39.220 --> 00:32:41.920
Um, yeah, pretty much. Well, it is a kick in

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.880
the nuts, but it's better than a legit kick in

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:46.740
the nuts. Um, yep. So have you like, are you

00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:48.940
running anything in there at the moment? That's

00:32:48.940 --> 00:32:53.220
like noteworthy or it's just testing stuff. Sorry

00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:54.940
about the background though. It's done like on

00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:58.579
the side of the highway. I can hear that. Have

00:32:58.579 --> 00:33:00.740
you got a beer or you got a coffee? I have a

00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:03.980
coffee but I did just notice a dude like walk

00:33:03.980 --> 00:33:06.380
behind me and hit that door real quick and then

00:33:06.380 --> 00:33:10.539
fuck off again. So it's uh 8 30 in the morning.

00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:15.140
But the gentile looked reasonably disheveled

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:18.559
so I am certain he was after a beer. I do have

00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.900
some prod stuff going right now but not a whole

00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:25.039
lot just yet. Ethereum nodes are actively getting

00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.539
migrated now. Archives are almost entirely migrated

00:33:29.539 --> 00:33:31.900
really low priority master servers have been

00:33:31.900 --> 00:33:33.900
migrated over or like actual validators haven't

00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:37.579
migrated over So you said your emissions probably

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:39.720
you said your aetherium stuff you're moving over.

00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.900
So are you like having? backup nodes elsewhere

00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:46.740
for that Yeah, so we have I think we're running

00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:50.660
seven aetherium nodes. So basically we're decommissioning

00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:54.559
like the off -site server ones that are in the

00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.849
US and She migrated me here. So most, most time

00:33:57.849 --> 00:33:59.809
if we have us servers, they're on the East coast.

00:34:00.430 --> 00:34:03.210
So add in 50 milliseconds of latency, which I'm

00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:06.410
willing to, to, to, to squirrel away by saying,

00:34:06.569 --> 00:34:09.230
Hey, we, we self host it in our, in our data

00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:17.010
center boys. Is there, um, is like, why seven?

00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:19.530
Are they all main net? Sorry. What was the question?

00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:21.769
You said you have seven Ethereum nodes. Are they

00:34:21.769 --> 00:34:26.300
all main net? Why seven? Uh, so a lot of it is

00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:29.500
like basically where they are in the world. So,

00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.900
um, we have three regions, right? So in the two

00:34:32.900 --> 00:34:36.179
in each region and then one test net, two test

00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:38.940
nets, two tests. So eight nodes. Right. Is it,

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.119
but like, are these for validators or are these

00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:46.800
for, um, no, no, no, that's our PCs. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:49.500
Yeah. Cause it's like, it's like, it's a lot

00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:52.980
for a validator. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that'd

00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:55.440
be that'd be way overkill way overkill. Well,

00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.539
I'm I'm told that they don't Necessarily work

00:34:58.539 --> 00:35:00.320
very well when you've got them load balanced

00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.719
either. So Because I think like the validator

00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:08.800
node subscribes to a a RPC. So anyway, that's

00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.860
like we've got multiple but they're sort of in

00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:14.659
like active backup For yeah for like, you know

00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:18.900
SSV and mobile and whatever right? Yeah, right

00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:22.650
but to be honest like Ethereum's so stable, I

00:35:22.650 --> 00:35:25.809
don't think it's ever fallen over on me. So the

00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:28.150
only thing you would really have is the hardware

00:35:28.150 --> 00:35:30.590
issue, I guess. It will run out of space, but

00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:33.369
it doesn't even use that much space. Is it pretty

00:35:33.369 --> 00:35:38.190
lightweight to note, to run? I was in Dubai at

00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:41.510
the token conference and in the Solana community,

00:35:41.789 --> 00:35:44.150
they like to talk shit on the Ethereum community

00:35:44.150 --> 00:35:48.730
and say... The priority is allowing, you know,

00:35:48.849 --> 00:35:52.309
decentralization so you can run nodes on toasters.

00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:55.289
You can run a theory on a fucking potato if you

00:35:55.289 --> 00:36:02.090
shove an SSD in it. Yeah, 100%. Like I, in the

00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:04.849
computer science department, I found that there

00:36:04.849 --> 00:36:08.329
was an academic blockchain, there was an academic

00:36:08.329 --> 00:36:11.849
blockchain project that a bunch of universities

00:36:11.849 --> 00:36:16.760
were running. It was a fork of geese and I literally

00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:19.539
just got forwarded an email being like, Hey,

00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.920
this thing is down. And it was from like the

00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.960
maintainers at some European university saying,

00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.239
Hey, your university's node is down. And it was

00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:31.760
one of those where then this got forwarded on

00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:33.559
from like the head of the department to somebody

00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:36.239
else eventually washed up on my desk. Cause somebody

00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.760
went, Hey, he's a blockchain guy. He'll know

00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.039
how to figure this out. And I basically, yeah.

00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:46.949
End up finding a I want to say it was an Ubuntu

00:36:46.949 --> 00:36:52.710
18 .3 LTS, something like that. It was a fucking

00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:59.210
old server, completely out. It was like EOL LTS

00:36:59.210 --> 00:37:03.409
server with just this stupid ass node on it.

00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:05.630
And the only reason it had crashed was absolute

00:37:05.630 --> 00:37:08.630
potato. And it was like whatever server under

00:37:08.630 --> 00:37:12.590
the desk in the IT service help desk room that

00:37:12.590 --> 00:37:15.909
they had been prepared to to give these academics

00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:18.309
to just casually run a blockchain. They're probably

00:37:18.309 --> 00:37:20.730
like, uh -huh, yeah, sure. We're not even gonna

00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:24.110
put that in our firewall. We're gonna use Jenny,

00:37:24.369 --> 00:37:26.570
the little server that could under that desk

00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:30.269
there that's covered in coffee stains. And yeah,

00:37:30.329 --> 00:37:31.789
and the only reason it hadn't stopped working

00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:33.750
was because the disk was full. And I was just

00:37:33.750 --> 00:37:35.510
like, oh, yeah, it's full, the disk full. And

00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:38.730
they're like, oh, right. How do we fix it? I

00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:41.980
was like, I... I literally, this server is fucked.

00:37:42.139 --> 00:37:44.380
We need a new server with a slightly bigger disc,

00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.780
but it will just work. And yeah, somebody plugged

00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:51.400
in another hard drive and just, it continued

00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.980
fucking working. And I was like, love a fix right

00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:59.039
after doing a thing. Amazing. But Ethereum man,

00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.579
like it, yeah, we'll just run on anything. And

00:38:01.579 --> 00:38:03.920
it is so, it's like, you just, it will kind of,

00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.519
it's like a Cosmos chain without Cosmoism. You're

00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:08.380
just like Cosmos chains without Cosmoism. You're

00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:10.670
just like, it's gonna keep running who cares

00:38:10.670 --> 00:38:12.929
um it's just that it's just that it does use

00:38:12.929 --> 00:38:15.309
a lot of space though i think ours are two terabytes

00:38:15.309 --> 00:38:17.750
maybe yeah that's probably better right they

00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:19.730
even this academic blockchain that was like empty

00:38:19.730 --> 00:38:22.409
blocks it was still like i think it had blown

00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:25.550
up at night like it busted through like i think

00:38:25.550 --> 00:38:33.909
it was a one terabyte drive and yeah yeah i mean

00:38:33.909 --> 00:38:35.869
but then you know flip sides like solana guys

00:38:35.869 --> 00:38:38.210
like shitting on ethereum you're like well you're

00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:40.519
your blockchain is hugely resource intensive

00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:45.079
still crashes a fair bit and you know yeah whatever

00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:47.440
requires the dark web in order to work correctly

00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:52.900
or like 30 percent of their traffic through like

00:38:52.900 --> 00:38:56.780
one provider or something like that yeah yeah

00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:00.380
which provider is that at the moment i can't

00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:02.559
remember the name but isn't it that one that

00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.179
was like recently purchased do you mean like

00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:08.909
one uh like hardware provider or one node provider.

00:39:09.269 --> 00:39:13.230
Like one note provider, I think. I think it's

00:39:13.230 --> 00:39:15.489
those dudes that we were talking about last month

00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:19.170
that got bought for some stupid amount of money.

00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:24.210
Sounds about right. And then all their traffic

00:39:24.210 --> 00:39:28.050
goes through Jito too. So if basically Jito goes

00:39:28.050 --> 00:39:34.690
down, no transactions will hit the chain. Decentralization,

00:39:34.849 --> 00:39:38.889
baby. This shit works. I won't, I won't hear

00:39:38.889 --> 00:39:42.809
a word against this decentralization. Um, fuck

00:39:42.809 --> 00:39:46.550
anyway, um, circling background to cause and

00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:49.269
wasm, you know, I feel kind of heartbroken that

00:39:49.269 --> 00:39:51.730
cause and wasm is basically going away. I think,

00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:53.829
I think the death knell has been, has been wrong.

00:39:53.929 --> 00:39:56.210
Yeah, but it's, it's on the hub. It is on the

00:39:56.210 --> 00:39:57.829
hub. That doesn't really mean anything. It's

00:39:57.829 --> 00:40:00.289
on the hub, but nothing is, nothing's being built

00:40:00.289 --> 00:40:02.030
on it that I'm aware of. Well, isn't the hub

00:40:02.030 --> 00:40:03.630
going for missionists? I mean, this was literally,

00:40:03.670 --> 00:40:08.440
we had this, we had, um, we had mags on the podo

00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:11.159
you know and there were we did there were rumblings

00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.000
about things to come on the uh on the cosmos

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:17.019
hub using cosmism potentially permissionless

00:40:17.019 --> 00:40:19.599
cosmism although i guess we'll believe when we

00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:24.099
see it right so the uh the sip three for say

00:40:24.099 --> 00:40:26.539
uh i don't know if he's talked about this already

00:40:26.539 --> 00:40:30.619
is just dropping entirely cosmism in the presumably

00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:34.909
in their new um development giga Yeah. I haven't

00:40:34.909 --> 00:40:36.429
talked about that, but yeah, I mean, that's kind

00:40:36.429 --> 00:40:39.230
of, that's the thing, right? Like so many chains

00:40:39.230 --> 00:40:42.190
are just not opting to use cosmopolitanism anymore.

00:40:42.809 --> 00:40:44.829
And I don't know if it's for good reason or not.

00:40:45.070 --> 00:40:48.150
I mean, considering confio, the maintainers and

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:50.369
creators of cosmopolitanism have been defunded.

00:40:50.550 --> 00:40:53.130
It probably is for, for good reason, right? Like,

00:40:53.210 --> 00:40:54.289
why would you trust something that's no longer

00:40:54.289 --> 00:40:56.469
maintained? Yeah. I think that's basically it.

00:40:56.510 --> 00:40:58.889
Isn't it? It's hard. It's like the money's run

00:40:58.889 --> 00:41:01.949
out and And that's that. It's just like the rough

00:41:01.949 --> 00:41:05.849
economics of the space, but it is disappointing

00:41:05.849 --> 00:41:08.070
as somebody who invested quite a lot of time

00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:10.769
and effort in Cosmos and its adoption, training

00:41:10.769 --> 00:41:14.289
developers, writing documentation, making videos,

00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:18.670
building protocols. Like it is a much better

00:41:18.670 --> 00:41:23.269
product than the EVM. The EVM feels like boomer

00:41:23.269 --> 00:41:26.550
shit compared to Cosmos. Like it really, really

00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:31.139
does. Cosmos is just a better tool chain. But

00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:34.099
to get to the level of developer tooling where

00:41:34.099 --> 00:41:37.099
it would really win people over, it just needed

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:40.199
a lot more money and a lot more investment and

00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:41.980
a lot more adoption. And you know what, it's

00:41:41.980 --> 00:41:44.159
in microcosm. It's the same fucking problem as

00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.179
the whole of the cosmos, right? You can sit on

00:41:46.179 --> 00:41:48.719
a really great app stack and it doesn't matter

00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:52.920
a shit. Like it reminds me of the, I mean, like

00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:54.659
the most extreme version of this is like the

00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:57.239
move VM. discussion because I know we've been

00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.440
talking recently about so there's some stuff

00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.280
happening in Aptos at the moment which is all

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:06.219
about there's been a proposal to reduce the inflation

00:42:06.219 --> 00:42:09.159
rate on that network and there's been some vigorous

00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.320
discussion on whether or not that is a good idea

00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:13.880
but underneath all of it there's this question

00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.659
of like you know product market fit and you know

00:42:17.659 --> 00:42:20.920
if there's demand for your tokens a lot of the

00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:23.940
other problems resolve themselves. And if you

00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:25.840
have use cases, there's demand for your tokens.

00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:30.440
And you can have the most excellent smart contract

00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:34.639
framework and tooling for developers that are

00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.519
picky and are prepared to stand a bit of pain

00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:40.639
to have a problem they have solved, if that's

00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:43.679
safety in the case of Move or if it's just a

00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.300
comprehensible developer experience in Rust in

00:42:46.300 --> 00:42:50.219
the case of Cosmosm. that that doesn't attract

00:42:50.219 --> 00:42:52.420
users. Users don't give a shit how it's written.

00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:55.079
They just give a shit that it's good or it does

00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.280
something for them, right? I mean, it doesn't

00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.840
even give a shit if it's good, right? Because

00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:02.900
arguably the reason why so many exploits exist

00:43:02.900 --> 00:43:05.820
on Ethereum. Yeah, I mean, like, obviously, cybersecurity

00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:08.420
is a pretty tricky and complex subject doubly.

00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:10.739
So, you know, block Jones and Tripoli, so unlike

00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:12.300
smart contracts, so like, you know, I'm not gonna

00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:13.860
say I'm gonna sit here and be like, Oh, well,

00:43:13.860 --> 00:43:16.159
if you if you cause and wasm your things, there's

00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:17.820
no chance of getting owned. It's like, well,

00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:22.949
that's obviously fucking bullshit. But it's like

00:43:22.949 --> 00:43:27.070
the functional programming argument. If you have

00:43:27.070 --> 00:43:29.849
careful controls over mutable state, you're not

00:43:29.849 --> 00:43:32.030
going to have any programming bugs that involve

00:43:32.030 --> 00:43:34.289
mutable state. That's the whole point of functional

00:43:34.289 --> 00:43:38.409
programming. And you can extend that argument

00:43:38.409 --> 00:43:40.329
to smart contract frameworks that have better

00:43:40.329 --> 00:43:42.170
guarantees about safety. It's like, well, OK.

00:43:43.089 --> 00:43:44.710
you're still going to get wrecked if you're going

00:43:44.710 --> 00:43:46.929
to get wrecked, but there's a certain class of

00:43:46.929 --> 00:43:49.710
bugs that you're no longer going to have. And

00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:51.690
as a developer, you can take that off your pile

00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:54.570
of shit to think about. And that's important

00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:56.210
if we're talking about programmable money, I

00:43:56.210 --> 00:43:59.769
think. It's just that it's not, do you know what

00:43:59.769 --> 00:44:01.949
friend of the, I can't remember who it was, but

00:44:01.949 --> 00:44:06.809
somebody said a while ago, like about decentralization,

00:44:08.289 --> 00:44:11.639
some friend of the podcast. that everybody says

00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.000
it's important, but nobody will fucking pay for

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.920
it. I'll tell you that for nothing. And I can't

00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.099
remember who said that. Sorry. It's kind of lodged

00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:21.119
in my brain, but I think it's a little bit the

00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.639
same with like smart contract tooling and stuff

00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:26.980
like, or application stack tooling. It's like

00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:33.239
exactly the same problem. And yeah, I don't know

00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:36.340
how we get past it to not just building everything

00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:39.800
on the EVM. like Boomers, like ETH Boomers, and

00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:42.199
we move on to like, okay, can we find a use case

00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:44.860
that doesn't involve every single part of our

00:44:44.860 --> 00:44:47.119
application architecture just being whatever

00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.039
the answer to the question just being whatever

00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.960
Ethereum does, that would be a good day that

00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.900
when we move past that, I think. That was a bit

00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:58.239
of a rant, sorry. I'll shut up now. Do you think

00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.820
it's all related to developer tooling or is some

00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:04.880
of it just people are after the liquidity, you

00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:09.829
know? I mean, I think honestly, Brendan, you

00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:12.070
probably know better than I would about that.

00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:13.809
But I think you're right. Liquidity is obviously

00:45:13.809 --> 00:45:15.650
a big thing. I mean, liquidity is a huge thing

00:45:15.650 --> 00:45:19.670
when you look at versus the cosmos, right? But

00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:21.929
I think it's also like maybe like also the brand

00:45:21.929 --> 00:45:24.789
and mind space and mind share. It's like, why

00:45:24.789 --> 00:45:27.489
is it easier to start a company in the Bay Area

00:45:27.489 --> 00:45:30.309
than it is to start a company in, you know, even

00:45:30.309 --> 00:45:33.489
in London, right? Biggest city in the UK, tech

00:45:33.489 --> 00:45:37.159
hub, ostensibly. Much easier to start a company

00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:41.300
in Probably SF SF isn't a fair comparison, but

00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:44.179
probably most US cities with a tech presence

00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:47.099
It would be easier to start a company and get

00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:49.420
funding than it would be in in London for a lot

00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:53.699
of use cases And it's that Yeah, it's like that

00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:55.420
network effect, isn't it? I think you have on

00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:58.260
a theory and as well as just the like you say

00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:02.360
the pure liquidity, right? I wonder how much

00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:05.619
of it also has to do with the for lack of a better

00:46:05.619 --> 00:46:09.000
term, fork ability. It seems like EVM lends itself

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.900
really well to people just forking each other's

00:46:11.900 --> 00:46:15.719
projects and then launching their own based off

00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.019
of said fork. You saw that a lot with like Phantom.

00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:23.440
Phantom had a lot of copycats for their swaps.

00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:27.719
At the smart contract level, you mean? Smart

00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.079
contract and really the entire level. Smart contract

00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:34.389
level as well as You see a lot of repeaters and

00:46:34.389 --> 00:46:37.510
stuff. Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, to

00:46:37.510 --> 00:46:38.989
be honest, when you were saying that, I also

00:46:38.989 --> 00:46:40.829
thought, we're just thinking, well, we're seeing

00:46:40.829 --> 00:46:43.110
a lot of networks where they just take the execution

00:46:43.110 --> 00:46:48.010
client or whatever from Ethereum. And it feels

00:46:48.010 --> 00:46:50.510
like there's enough developer mindshare throughout

00:46:50.510 --> 00:46:53.969
the Ethereum stack that people are remixing it.

00:46:54.090 --> 00:46:57.849
like kind of an ad ad and for an item, whether

00:46:57.849 --> 00:47:00.309
it's smart contracts or bits of the execution

00:47:00.309 --> 00:47:03.610
client or the consensus client or whatever. And

00:47:03.610 --> 00:47:06.250
that's cool, but they're very incremental changes,

00:47:06.269 --> 00:47:09.389
I think is the problem. And there's a lot of,

00:47:09.409 --> 00:47:12.710
but it's just VHS Betamax isn't it again. So

00:47:12.710 --> 00:47:18.789
I don't know why I'm surprised. But yeah, it's

00:47:18.789 --> 00:47:21.750
a tough one to solve. And because I think the

00:47:21.750 --> 00:47:25.090
fundamental problem, I guess the root of my concern,

00:47:25.250 --> 00:47:26.889
I guess, you know, I don't know what you guys

00:47:26.889 --> 00:47:29.969
think about this is that I still don't think

00:47:29.969 --> 00:47:33.349
despite that point, they've got to where the

00:47:33.349 --> 00:47:37.070
remixing is happening, right and remixing remixing

00:47:37.070 --> 00:47:40.130
in the kind of sense of like taking an idea and

00:47:40.130 --> 00:47:42.070
making minor modifications to it and creating

00:47:42.070 --> 00:47:44.289
a culture around it and discourse around it.

00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.960
I mean, that is not only the essence of culture,

00:47:47.099 --> 00:47:48.760
but it's also the essence of innovation, right,

00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:51.619
which is cool. So it's good for Ethereum and

00:47:51.619 --> 00:47:53.539
it's good for the wider ecosystem that that remix

00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:57.500
culture is happening. But what I don't see is

00:47:57.500 --> 00:48:01.159
any like, like Ethereum birthed NFTs, cool. What

00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.780
are the use cases? Like real use cases has it

00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:07.260
birthed since? You know, they did those NFTs,

00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:09.300
they did DEXs, they did a lot of those first

00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:12.139
things and then... I'm kind of waiting for another

00:48:12.139 --> 00:48:14.079
wow moment and I'm not seeing it coming from

00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.280
that ecosystem. So. Ah, big mistake. They did

00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:23.159
soulbound NFTs. You see, there you go. That's,

00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.900
that's the big thing. It's, it's AI, man. It's

00:48:25.900 --> 00:48:32.940
all AI. It's all AI. I mean, I said on the last

00:48:32.940 --> 00:48:35.420
podcast, I said like, it is entirely possible

00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:39.639
that AI is the use case and I'm wrong. And, and

00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:43.239
it's fine. and null score he's like ai i'm out

00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.880
so this conversation deuces yeah he's like i

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.760
want to go look at some hard drives um oh he's

00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:55.179
back ah yes all right i missed it all right okay

00:48:55.179 --> 00:49:00.590
see you know peace out buddy um text now um Yeah.

00:49:00.710 --> 00:49:01.869
I mean, what do you think, what do you think

00:49:01.869 --> 00:49:04.230
of the, like, what kind of use cases are exciting

00:49:04.230 --> 00:49:05.849
you, Brendan? I know, I know at the moment you've

00:49:05.849 --> 00:49:07.329
taken a little bit of a, you've taken a little

00:49:07.329 --> 00:49:09.489
bit of a step away, I suppose, from, you're still

00:49:09.489 --> 00:49:11.130
running, you're still running Whisper, right?

00:49:11.190 --> 00:49:14.130
So you have kind of, but you're not, my understanding

00:49:14.130 --> 00:49:16.130
is you're not like doing lots of active business

00:49:16.130 --> 00:49:18.170
development to like bring on, you know, it's

00:49:18.170 --> 00:49:20.230
for Whisper at the moment, right? Yeah, pretty

00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:23.849
much zero. So just running, running the existing

00:49:23.849 --> 00:49:27.389
ones I had, even kind of concentrating on a select

00:49:27.389 --> 00:49:30.320
few at this point. But yeah, mental bandwidth

00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.719
is more on the broader ecosystem, trying to catch

00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.619
back up on what's going on out there. I feel

00:49:38.619 --> 00:49:40.699
like with running the validator stuff and running

00:49:40.699 --> 00:49:44.880
the day -to -day business, you lose track of

00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.159
where the market is going, where the space is

00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:53.320
going to a degree. Yeah, 100%. I don't know what

00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.710
your setup is like, but I feel like Maybe this

00:49:56.710 --> 00:49:58.849
has got better recently, but like, especially

00:49:58.849 --> 00:50:02.070
maybe again, early days, like, do you remember

00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:05.210
in like 2021, when none of us even knew how many

00:50:05.210 --> 00:50:07.769
tokens we got, and we were all trying to like,

00:50:07.909 --> 00:50:10.829
write scripts to work out what our commission

00:50:10.829 --> 00:50:13.010
rate was so that we could like not get sent to

00:50:13.010 --> 00:50:16.769
jail for like, misreporting taxes. Like, and

00:50:16.769 --> 00:50:18.389
it's just like, you look up like six months later,

00:50:18.409 --> 00:50:20.110
and you're like, I don't know any launches that

00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:25.980
happened. I wonder why, right? Yup. 100%. but

00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:29.139
like what are the kind of things you're looking

00:50:29.139 --> 00:50:30.579
at now where you're looking at and you say hey

00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:34.059
that's pretty exciting because like you say you've

00:50:34.059 --> 00:50:36.119
got a little bit more perspective now maybe and

00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:38.980
like even if it's like quite a different perspective

00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:42.420
yeah i mean i'm only like two weeks in so not

00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:44.880
that much of a perspective but really you're

00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:46.739
only two weeks done it feels like you've been

00:50:46.739 --> 00:50:51.500
oh i agree oh man having a kid my time frames

00:50:51.500 --> 00:50:54.940
are just so messed up It's Web3 in general, man.

00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:57.960
It's like a day feels like a year, you know?

00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:02.440
Yeah. I think some of the AI stuff is interesting.

00:51:02.579 --> 00:51:05.019
They're slapping it everywhere, but there was

00:51:05.019 --> 00:51:10.000
a project out there where the founder was ex

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.099
-Uber and they were building like payment rails

00:51:13.099 --> 00:51:17.940
for AI agents. I think that could potentially

00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:20.860
be an interesting use case where the blockchain's

00:51:20.860 --> 00:51:23.400
kind of confirming the actions that agents are

00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:26.539
taking and then taking payments, whether it be

00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:32.280
agent to agent or agent to external API. Cause

00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.659
like, you know, who's going to run the payment

00:51:35.659 --> 00:51:38.739
system for all these AI agents out there. Yeah.

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.019
Well, I guess it'd be extremely profitable for

00:51:41.019 --> 00:51:43.420
anybody that did want to, but it would involve

00:51:43.420 --> 00:51:48.159
a fair bit of risk. I guess the real question

00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:50.320
would be like, who needs to audit it and when

00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:52.840
and by whom, because the easiest solution is

00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:55.579
just make it public. And then the next thing

00:51:55.579 --> 00:52:00.119
you know, your AI agent has made a really, really

00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:03.340
identifiable set of transactions on your behalf

00:52:03.340 --> 00:52:05.639
and somebody is coming to your house with a hammer.

00:52:06.340 --> 00:52:10.420
Yeah. Well, there's a big push to run a lot of

00:52:10.420 --> 00:52:14.139
the stuff in TE's, Schultze. going back to the

00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:16.760
secret network days again, coming full circle

00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:20.159
there. TEs are a hot subject again, because of

00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:23.840
all this AI crap. And I know near protocol, they

00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.599
were in a bunch of panels and their product,

00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:30.579
product lead just kept hammering, hammering away

00:52:30.579 --> 00:52:33.760
at TEs and all these AI agents need to be running

00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:37.739
in TEs. I, I've said it many times in this podcast,

00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:41.900
but near I think, is one it's my favorite blockchain.

00:52:42.539 --> 00:52:45.280
Like I think that I think that their vision has

00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:48.360
been The most pure if you've seen their white

00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:50.260
paper or not the right papers their whiteboarding

00:52:50.260 --> 00:52:53.659
series on YouTube They basically interview all

00:52:53.659 --> 00:52:55.119
the different founders of different chains and

00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:57.440
they talk about like what were the design constraints

00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:01.099
and then they basically used all of those whiteboarding

00:53:01.099 --> 00:53:03.579
sessions with those founders to develop near

00:53:03.579 --> 00:53:08.079
and The things they've done in near I they should

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:11.780
be bigger than it is I mean, maybe they're going

00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:14.219
to have kind of a renaissance. It seems like

00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:18.320
they have a lot of presence at conferences. They

00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.719
were everywhere at token in Dubai. Oh, really?

00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:24.519
And they're actually a big client of flip sides

00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:27.820
as well. We just we just released our own AI

00:53:27.820 --> 00:53:32.239
insights product with near. So I'm curious to

00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.139
see what they'll they'll do with it. I think

00:53:35.139 --> 00:53:37.679
if a few dollar do screw screwed away, haven't

00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.719
they near protocols. So this There's definitely

00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:43.659
some like, um, and I guess like Tendermint or

00:53:43.659 --> 00:53:45.699
the Hub is maybe a little bit of an example of

00:53:45.699 --> 00:53:47.320
this. There are definitely some crypto foundations

00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:51.000
that made so much money in their early ICOs or

00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.500
via VCs or just as the result of their tokenomics

00:53:53.500 --> 00:53:56.460
that they're, they're basically too big to fail

00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:58.719
at this point, even if they don't execute their

00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:03.059
product vision. And that's going to be an interesting

00:54:03.059 --> 00:54:05.780
dynamic moving forward. Right. As well. Cause

00:54:05.780 --> 00:54:06.940
I mean, there's, there's kind of a little bit

00:54:06.940 --> 00:54:08.780
of that way. It's just like the even if they

00:54:08.780 --> 00:54:10.219
don't find a use case, they're just going to

00:54:10.219 --> 00:54:13.380
have a big treasury, which somebody will buy.

00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:20.199
There's still ICOs out there like that. I just

00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:22.300
saw someone that worked for Salt Lending the

00:54:22.300 --> 00:54:24.360
other day. I didn't even know Salt Lending was

00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:28.159
still around. Interesting. I didn't know either.

00:54:28.659 --> 00:54:31.980
I mean, yeah, you see a lot of stuff, especially

00:54:31.980 --> 00:54:35.199
because academic papers take quite often so many

00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:39.329
years to get published. I'm sometimes like I'll

00:54:39.329 --> 00:54:42.010
see a thing that I'll see a paper and read it

00:54:42.010 --> 00:54:44.869
and then be like I have to go and double check

00:54:44.869 --> 00:54:47.829
like when it was first started versus when it

00:54:47.829 --> 00:54:50.230
was published because I'll be like is that protocol

00:54:50.230 --> 00:54:53.230
still alive or is it just that they took a data

00:54:53.230 --> 00:54:55.849
point in 2017 and then it's taken five years

00:54:55.849 --> 00:54:58.210
to get in this top journal because it takes a

00:54:58.210 --> 00:54:59.949
long time to write like you know these really

00:54:59.949 --> 00:55:02.860
like top tier stuff. Or like, is it because that

00:55:02.860 --> 00:55:05.500
thing is still fucking going? And it's because

00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:07.420
they're still going. They've got loads of money,

00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:09.039
and they're trying to get academics to write

00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:13.360
papers about them. Or they'll go, hey, you guys

00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:15.599
want data on decentralization or something? We'll

00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.559
give you archive access for free, for no worries.

00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:20.039
And we'll give you developers to help you find

00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:21.860
the data if you're not very good at coding or

00:55:21.860 --> 00:55:24.019
whatever it might be. And you're like, oh, that's

00:55:24.019 --> 00:55:27.059
what happened. It takes someone to take us a

00:55:27.059 --> 00:55:32.420
bit of scratching. forever looking for a use

00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:33.400
case whatever it might be.