WEBVTT

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from

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Independent Validator Teams. Hello and welcome

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to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from Independent

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Validator Teams, now sponsored by the Tillamook

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County Smoke, Country Smoker, nearly got that

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right. I can't even get a joke right these days.

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That's what we're in. Bear market is one thing.

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Tariff. war, trade war is another thing. It's

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been a very wearing week. There's a trade war.

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There's a trade war. Have you not heard? I heard

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it was cancelled. Just cancelled just for just

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for a couple weeks. So true story, I was looking

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I was talking to a friend of mine who's who's

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a journalist about the trade war. And while we

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were just chatting, they were like, Oh, shit,

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it's been called off trade wars. trade was over

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lol and then they were like by the way it's not

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really and then I looked at like when when they

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were like oh yeah it's it's it's over I just

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didn't even look at the news went straight to

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like the candles graph and saw they'd all edged

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up by the 1 % I was like trade was over we're

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back baby and then of course like it's like oh

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but when we say over we mean everybody's still

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getting 10 % tariffs and then it was like oop

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and then all red again And I was like, damn,

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it's not over, dude. And he was like, is that

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just in your stupid ass crypto world? And I was

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like, it's just in my stupid ass crypto. Exactly.

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I'm sure it's bad out there in the real economy,

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too. I'm sure we're all losing money. But right

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now, line not go up. And it's bad. And as an

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aside, what do you reckon the players I read

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some like bullshit headline about how Liberty

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Financial will liquidate a bunch of ETH. And

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I was like, that has to be making There has to

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be some, there has to be some kind of scam here,

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you know? Is that right? Who's Liberty Financial?

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I should know that. It's Trump's thing. Oh, uh

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oh. I did, I did see that they, that, that then

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they flash sale like $50 million of that Molina

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bullshit token or something like that too. I

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drove that thing into the ground. Yeah, I don't

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know. I think they finally rugged it. They haven't

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already rugged it? No, I think they're a whole,

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I don't know. God knows. I ordered some server

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hardware three weeks ago from China, but it's

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on backorder. And when the tariffs came up, I

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messaged him. I was like, hey, I'm going to cancel

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this because I don't really want to pay like

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double the cost for the server hardware. And

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they replied and they were like, let's just let

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it wait for a few days because Trump's an asshole

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and we don't know what to do. I was like, okay.

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So you're finally joining. Now insert masochism

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club Kinda kinda a little bit I'm actually setting

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up home hardware because I don't want to commit

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to a data center and it's gonna be like the low

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priority things that it's gonna go in here and

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then there's basically all the network is gonna

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happen via the VPN in order to do like As least

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commitment as possible you do test that tree

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house is that what you're saying test that's

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our high priority test that's you have to have

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test that's you actually have to have good uptime.

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That's fucking true. Nobody gives a fuck. You

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don't care about any more as a business. That's

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what you said. Totally. Dude, that is so fucking

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true. I remember in like this was this is how

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you know, how ahead people that are called fray

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think right. I remember talking to Ethan fray

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in 2021. I think it was Cosmoverse 2021. And

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even then he was already like, yeah, for the

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low priority stuff, you just run it out of your

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garden shed, put it on the server, happy days.

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I was like, in a pretty... There's still a ton

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of valves to do that, right? I remember Jaby

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running stuff underneath his desk for a long

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time. I thought Demi ran his Juno validator out

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of his house forever. Like it was on some, he

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always said it was like on some machine in the

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closet or something like that. Jaby was running

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it off of the home entertainment. system in the

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next room, wasn't it? It crashed, and I remember

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him saying, oh, it's crashed because it's running

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on the media center. It was like plex anosmosis.

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Yeah, I was like, no, no, no. It's quite a powerful

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computer, but it is in my house. And I was like,

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shit's meant to be resilient. Yeah, I was like,

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didn't you used to work for AWS or some shit?

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He was like, no, no, no. We're trying to pay

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for a home cinema. We're not trying to pay for

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expensive hardware. That's funny. You should

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listen to that advice. Then we would be sitting

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pretty through this this tower of chaos. So where

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are you putting that stuff? You put it in the

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basement or something? That shit's loud, you

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know? Let me grab the actual hardware real quick

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so you can actually see it. Oh, is it like a

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140? Oh, OK, so it's got like. big fans on it

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or something like that. So it's not like, it

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doesn't have those little 30 millimeters screamers

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or that kind of server shit, right? Okay, that's

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cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's worth it. It's basically

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silent, but they're powerful as all hell. And

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they're cheap. Like you can get them for dirt

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cheap. Are they, are they Epic or what are they,

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or just Ryzen? They're just Ryzen. Yeah. And

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they're laptop Ryzen, but laptop Ryzen is like,

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basically just as good. There's nothing wrong

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in that show. For me, it was always like it was

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always internet. Although, although I mean, for

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a while, I had two routes out of this house because

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I because for another reason, but but for another

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reason. But but that was always the issue is

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like just having something that's stable enough.

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And especially if you especially if you have

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open like if you have open ports and shit, that

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becomes a pain in the ass. Yeah, so I've been,

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well, that's why I wanted to deal with the VPN,

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right? So if I, I can basically peer off - You

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can route it out. Internal nodes. Yeah. But I

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am gonna get a second line dropped so that I

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actually have a business SLA. Yeah. So that I

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don't have to worry about it. Plus all the unlimited

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internet then. So, and it's already, it's one

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gig up and down. Yeah. Good enough. That's funny.

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Yeah. Or even if you put, even if you put signers

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at home, that's not a good idea. Right. Something

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like that. Just keep keys local. Yep. Yeah, so

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- That's fun. But you're right about the testnet

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thing, man. Nobody gives a shit mainnet, I swear.

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Testnet, like, who the hell? I mean, it is true

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that when you have, like, various things like

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testnets or performance testnets, I find they

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are the times that I am most stressed out and

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most attentive to, like, specific. I mean, fucking,

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like, back in the day, for, like, Cosmos testnets,

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when we were running, we would... sometimes we

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running a fucking century on AWS for some of

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that stuff. Okay, that was pure madness. That

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was. Look, look, sometimes now when I look at

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what's in the bank, and I go, mistakes have been

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made, which mistakes specifically have been made,

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the answer is usually AWS. But yeah, there's

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no but. But you got to care about test nets,

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right? It's just it's just the nature of the

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beast the Especially in this day and age right

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because I think that that's one of the things

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that new validators underestimate They're like,

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oh I got into a main net therefore I'm doing

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awesome But really once you get a minute everything

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kind of quiets down, right? It's just test nets

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where you have to kind of show your chops and

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say, oh I've got this RPC for you guys Yins are

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gonna love it. You're gonna love it. Yeah. Yep.

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I think that Yeah, I mean, difficulty I found

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with with test nets is that in in cosmos, it's

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like, because especially in the early days, it

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was like a bit of a club, if you knew people,

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and you've met people, especially, especially

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relatively early on, like, you can kind of get

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into most stuff, like, you know, people basically

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get the idea that you're not like a Mickey Mouse

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operator in terms of technical chops, and you're

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kind of that, like, all you need to do is actually

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show up, pull your weight. help out with documentation

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stuff, and you're good. But it's like a, in every

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like that, that entire approach, obviously, for

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obvious reasons doesn't work in any other ecosystem.

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And then you're kind of like, I was talking to,

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I was talking about this with somebody else in

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with another validator the other day, who mainly

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works in other ecosystems. And they were like,

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they're like, as wild when you're in an environment

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where there's sort of a barrier to entry and

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sort of not at the same time, like from a business

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perspective, when you're trying to get into testers

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and things, because you're competing against

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like literally everybody at every level of experience.

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And there's, there's so little filter other than

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having shaken somebody's hand still, which we

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all know, obviously, but hey, yeah. So Yeah,

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there's been there's been soft selling of Molina

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over four million dollars a day Over and over

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and over they think it's inside the team just

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quietly rug -pulling just a little bit by a little

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bit I can't believe it has that much liquidity

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Yeah, I mean, I don't know but it's it's down

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90 % 96 % from all -time high At this is the

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article from no today. It says 51 cents, but

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I know it's already down to 47 It just keeps

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slowly sliding. I think there's like 75 million

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dollars of liquidity Like that, which is like

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full diluted value. Wow. Okay. Yeah Just just

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like just bigger bigger smaller rug pool, you

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know, that's the question He's got to do he's

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a little a time, right? It's like a I mean, that's

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like pulling the rug out from or like a tablecloth

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as opposed to the rug Well, yeah, no, you gotta

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do it, but you're doing it slow, right? So like

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you're actually moving the whole all the shit

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on the table with it until Until everything falls

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off the edge. Yeah, exactly. Right. You're not

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just whipping everything out. You're just kind

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of slowly You're like how the fuck are we over

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here now? Wait, why is it we have 40 cents? Oh

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because somebody's been selling off four million

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dollars a fucking day. I Mean anybody is surprised

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that that tokens go to south has not probably

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been paying much attention everybody knows it's

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going to zero just to put every feels I can They

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can be smarter than the people that are going

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to be riding it all the way out. Somebody's holding

00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:52.980
that bag. So you know this whole AI governing

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blockchain thing that's been a meme for years?

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I was thinking about it after going to an academic

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conference last week. And I was like, OK, what

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if public blockchains actually And I know this

00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:12.659
is literally why people have been memeing this

00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:14.820
for years. I'm aware that this has always been

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the argument, but I was like, hang on. If these

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public blockchains aren't actually much good

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as a store of value, and maybe they're not much

00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.980
good for payments either, and there might be

00:11:24.980 --> 00:11:30.240
better ways of doing smart contracts. All three

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possibilities. I know Serp has a news item about

00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.299
the whole store of value thing that he wants

00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:40.629
to talk about. But actually, like, I know it's

00:11:40.629 --> 00:11:42.629
also been a meme of this podcast that we've always

00:11:42.629 --> 00:11:45.149
talked about, like, what do these things do other

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than, you know, make validators get up in the

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middle of the night and create governance proposals.

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But actually, the one thing that you do want

00:11:56.269 --> 00:11:59.190
to create like a really public audience trail

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and you don't care about privacy of any kind

00:12:01.629 --> 00:12:06.429
for is your automated agent governance. The only

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part of the whole AI on blockchain thing that

00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:10.750
really doesn't make a lick of sense is that all

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the people who are talking about AI on blockchain

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are still going, oh, yeah, and you're going to

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need gas and tokens, and we're going to mint

00:12:17.789 --> 00:12:23.710
one. And it's like, oh, what? But why? The agent

00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:26.049
wants to pay with US dollars or whatever. You

00:12:26.049 --> 00:12:28.929
don't need a token. None of that makes a lick

00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:32.129
of sense. But all the governance part, yeah,

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kind of, but probably not token -weighted voting

00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:38.980
because obviously, Sibyl attacks, right? So I

00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:41.240
don't know, like maybe the whole governance engine

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with Byzantine fault tolerance makes a lot of

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sense in that case, just like nobody's gonna

00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:51.620
get rich off of price manipulation for a native

00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.279
token by doing it. But maybe it does make more

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sense than I've given it credit for in the past.

00:12:56.779 --> 00:13:00.500
So there you go. That's me saying I'm wrong.

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I have no idea what you just said. Yeah, I don't

00:13:04.059 --> 00:13:09.139
either. AI on blockchain may be good, but sadly

00:13:09.139 --> 00:13:17.659
no moon. But number small? But for the discerning

00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:20.899
validator, twizzling their evil mustache. Like,

00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:23.620
if my hypothesis is correct, right, a native

00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:26.539
token don't matter. Still means you need infrastructure,

00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:28.340
still means you need people to run those nodes.

00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:29.740
They're probably just gonna be paid in a more

00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:34.049
boring way. And hey, I'm Captain Boring. Hear

00:13:34.049 --> 00:13:37.149
it on boy labs. We like we like it pay for boring

00:13:37.149 --> 00:13:41.470
work. We love it So I'm into that. Yeah, you

00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:46.309
know Trump You know, well, why would AI be on

00:13:46.309 --> 00:13:50.889
blockchain? What's the point? Just the governance

00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:54.389
of it basically Because like the one thing so

00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:57.230
the one thing that governance seems the one thing

00:13:57.230 --> 00:13:59.250
the blockchain is do seem to be to do Dallas

00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:02.769
more specifically They do seem to arrive at a

00:14:02.769 --> 00:14:06.190
form of socially governed consensus, which is

00:14:06.190 --> 00:14:08.350
interesting, right? It's interesting that even

00:14:08.350 --> 00:14:11.730
some like terror fucking collapses can relaunch.

00:14:11.850 --> 00:14:14.690
That's kind of fascinating, right? And the token's

00:14:14.690 --> 00:14:16.629
worth nothing afterwards, but you go like, okay,

00:14:16.789 --> 00:14:19.289
there's something about trust in these systems

00:14:19.289 --> 00:14:22.929
that can be achieved. Can you do that without

00:14:22.929 --> 00:14:27.610
the shitcoin, basically? Can these systems be

00:14:27.610 --> 00:14:29.470
useful for governance without the shitcoin? That's

00:14:29.470 --> 00:14:32.860
the question. can these DAOs work with? Because

00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:34.600
if they can just work with a US dollar treasury

00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:38.259
or a stable coin treasury, then you're away to

00:14:38.259 --> 00:14:40.399
the race. I mean, like our DAO, the game of NOSDAO,

00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:42.600
it's just a stable coin treasury. We just use

00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.820
it as some basic stuff. And it actually is quite

00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.679
useful. We use it for useful things. But you

00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.740
apply that logic to loads of other things that

00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:53.379
you might want to semi -automatedly govern and

00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:55.840
that might want to conceivably interact with

00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.740
simple smart contracts or financial primitives.

00:15:00.739 --> 00:15:05.820
AI is to be fair one of them Yeah, so I Just

00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:07.179
don't think I don't think you can I don't think

00:15:07.179 --> 00:15:08.799
you need the shit coin part, but I think you

00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:13.139
do need the Dow part But is that what does that

00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.139
do it's like like creating guardrails um, um,

00:15:15.139 --> 00:15:18.299
hey like no, it's not it's not it's not governance

00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:22.620
in the sense of like, you know, the what's the

00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:26.970
What's the is Asimov's laws of whatever that

00:15:26.970 --> 00:15:28.450
I'm thinking of, you know, where it's like, you

00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:30.769
shouldn't kill a human. Those is I'm not talking

00:15:30.769 --> 00:15:33.149
about governance in that sense. I mean, like,

00:15:33.549 --> 00:15:39.250
is this action legitimate? Or should this new

00:15:39.250 --> 00:15:42.509
model be deployed? Or is this? I don't really

00:15:42.509 --> 00:15:44.889
I don't use AI because I'm a fucking Luddite.

00:15:44.929 --> 00:15:48.169
So, you know, like, I mean, governance in a more

00:15:48.169 --> 00:15:52.730
boring social consensus kind of way, like a Putting

00:15:52.730 --> 00:15:54.889
putting constraints around like what smart contracts

00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:57.090
it can interact with like what its interaction

00:15:57.090 --> 00:15:59.870
surfaces and blah blah blah blah not like not

00:15:59.870 --> 00:16:02.850
like Has it tried to take the nuclear launch

00:16:02.850 --> 00:16:05.049
codes because obviously if it's done that we're

00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:07.929
in terminator 3 anyway or terminator 2 or in

00:16:07.929 --> 00:16:11.710
fact Every time every terminator after terminator

00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:13.929
1 involves the new nuclear launch codes doesn't

00:16:13.929 --> 00:16:17.769
it say From memory does to involve the codes

00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:20.519
Isn't that what it was about? No, you're right.

00:16:20.860 --> 00:16:23.440
Three is where three is what no three because

00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:26.700
two is about they come back from the post apocalypse,

00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:30.019
don't they? But it all happens before three is

00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:32.519
where you see it happening. You see Judgment

00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:38.200
Day. Mm hmm. Four is post Judgment Day. Well,

00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.139
that's a very bad film, but still, I don't remember.

00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.840
So Terminated Salvation is the one where Christian

00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.820
Bale had the meltdown on set. You remember? Oh,

00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.720
yeah. Have you not heard it? It's a main show

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.659
now. Oh, is it? Did somebody audio record it?

00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:53.720
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I did hear about that.

00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:56.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The state, the audio is still

00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:00.200
on on set. And so it's just like Christian Bale

00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:04.299
in full, like, back to meltdown. Right, right.

00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:07.640
He was screaming to the director. I forget. What

00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:09.400
was he pissed about, though? It was something.

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.529
Somebody dropped a... I think somebody dropped

00:17:12.529 --> 00:17:14.890
like a mic boom or something in the middle of

00:17:14.890 --> 00:17:17.650
a take. And apparently it had been a really bad

00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:20.049
production, like really disorganized. And he

00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:22.829
just like explodes. And they're just like, there's

00:17:22.829 --> 00:17:24.630
like copped out. It's just a bike boomer. He's

00:17:24.630 --> 00:17:30.849
just like, I'm not calm down. It's minute 30,

00:17:31.130 --> 00:17:34.450
just like rant. And like, he names the director

00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:37.730
and there's like, ah. Listen, we've had those

00:17:37.730 --> 00:17:40.859
days. Yeah. But there's the there's a I think

00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:43.200
his family guy had a great bit where they just

00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:48.279
like Peter's just like in the set and like a

00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.099
boom falls down. He's just like repeats verbatim

00:17:52.099 --> 00:17:56.859
the entire rant and then storms off. They thought

00:17:56.859 --> 00:17:59.859
they put that one out really shortly after it

00:17:59.859 --> 00:18:02.660
was like a meme. It's like fair play. That's

00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:05.299
actually a really good joke. All right, I found

00:18:05.299 --> 00:18:09.690
it up on LinkedIn notes. Wait, what does that

00:18:09.690 --> 00:18:13.069
have to do with AI? Which one has the nuclear

00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:15.529
codes? Who has the nuclear codes? Christian has

00:18:15.529 --> 00:18:22.289
it. That's the one. So Bitcoin and gold. Yeah.

00:18:23.029 --> 00:18:25.069
Yeah, what we think we were talking about before

00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:30.650
was, well, we've had this theory, or I guess

00:18:30.650 --> 00:18:32.529
the market has had this theory. Who's had this

00:18:32.529 --> 00:18:35.829
theory? That Bitcoin is playing this role as

00:18:35.829 --> 00:18:39.230
a digital reserve. And it has in the past, I

00:18:39.230 --> 00:18:42.430
think, at least in the last, maybe, I can go

00:18:42.430 --> 00:18:44.029
back and look, but maybe the last year -ish,

00:18:44.089 --> 00:18:46.109
something like that, but it has followed a bit

00:18:46.109 --> 00:18:49.569
of gold prices and it has followed at least that

00:18:49.569 --> 00:18:50.690
structure. Although gold has been going up for

00:18:50.690 --> 00:18:52.549
a long time, but so has Bitcoin, I guess, and

00:18:52.549 --> 00:18:55.470
we need back out far enough. But what was interesting,

00:18:55.630 --> 00:19:00.210
I was just looking at just in this tariff situation,

00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:04.089
just how much those two have diverged and...

00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:05.849
There's huge influx in the gold right now. I

00:19:05.849 --> 00:19:12.529
think the price is over 3 ,200 USD, something

00:19:12.529 --> 00:19:17.970
like that. 3 ,174 right now, which I think is

00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:21.329
two or... That's per ounce? Yeah, which I think

00:19:21.329 --> 00:19:25.109
is like two and a half percent, two or three

00:19:25.109 --> 00:19:28.289
percent since this whole Hubba Baloo started,

00:19:28.549 --> 00:19:30.250
whatever it was, 10 days ago. I'm not sure. How

00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:32.289
long are we in this? It feels like... it feels

00:19:32.289 --> 00:19:36.069
like it's been months but yeah it's been a lot

00:19:36.069 --> 00:19:38.390
it feels like it's been a long time it's been

00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:42.089
like five days right i know it was last week

00:19:42.089 --> 00:19:45.529
uh what's the fool is interstellar where they

00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:48.089
go down to like the planet where matt damon is

00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:51.910
and they think it's been like an hour and then

00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:53.890
they come back and the guy's been like it's been

00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:59.640
like 30 years oh yeah that's a great scene The

00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:01.539
guys that's been spinning, the guys that's sitting

00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:03.859
in that scaffold spinning around 30 years waiting

00:20:03.859 --> 00:20:06.559
for him to come back. Do you remember like when

00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.900
that film came out, there was like a brief, there

00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:12.119
was a brief and delicious period of memes where

00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.619
they were all just the, you know, the really

00:20:14.619 --> 00:20:16.440
intense docking music where they're trying to

00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.000
dock with the spinning spaceship was out of control

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:21.799
and it was just things that were spinning. And

00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.740
they had like some guy that like fired off a

00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:27.849
fire extinguisher while sitting in a in a desk

00:20:27.849 --> 00:20:30.230
chair and he's just like spinning really fast

00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:32.930
and there's like there's like a cat hanging on

00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:34.930
a you know like a what's it called you know when

00:20:34.930 --> 00:20:38.109
those ceiling fans uh -huh like it was trying

00:20:38.109 --> 00:20:40.809
to climb up onto the ceiling fan to get and it

00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:42.490
just kept slipping back down and it was just

00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:50.470
like really intense music um yeah that's great

00:20:50.470 --> 00:20:53.589
yeah so so anyway so great meme I think this

00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:56.769
last few weeks, I think we've seen, I don't know

00:20:56.769 --> 00:20:58.210
what it was, I thought it was like 10 days ago,

00:20:58.269 --> 00:21:02.230
whatever, fuck. But we have not seen that those

00:21:02.230 --> 00:21:07.170
have been at all correlated. And so I think it

00:21:07.170 --> 00:21:09.450
is interesting, it's something that we'll probably

00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:11.529
talk about again at some point, but it is pretty

00:21:11.529 --> 00:21:17.549
interesting how maybe different types of risk

00:21:17.549 --> 00:21:20.369
drive investors in different ways. maybe has

00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:22.390
nothing to do with that at all. But the idea

00:21:22.390 --> 00:21:25.890
that like, hey, these tariffs might get us into

00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:27.609
a little bit of a spiral here, we might have

00:21:27.609 --> 00:21:32.250
a recession. And is Bitcoin a store of value

00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:34.809
during a recession? Or is even that that's too

00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:37.809
much risk. And so therefore, our traditional

00:21:37.809 --> 00:21:43.529
holders would then run back to gold or something

00:21:43.529 --> 00:21:45.630
similar to that, that is a more traditional store

00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:47.490
of value, like that they don't feel has the same

00:21:47.490 --> 00:21:51.589
amount of of risk associated to that. It is a

00:21:51.589 --> 00:21:54.990
store of value, but maybe it's a different level

00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:56.750
of risk structure. I'm clear it's a different

00:21:56.750 --> 00:22:00.089
level of risk, which we've always said that.

00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:02.410
It's not even the same fucking thing. But I think

00:22:02.410 --> 00:22:04.549
the market has tried to look at it and say, hey,

00:22:04.750 --> 00:22:08.369
this is a digital gold. So therefore, it's going

00:22:08.369 --> 00:22:10.970
to follow that same structure in terms of as

00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:12.769
flows go in and out of the market. And maybe

00:22:12.769 --> 00:22:14.710
this last couple of weeks has put that to a test

00:22:14.710 --> 00:22:18.619
a little bit. Yeah, I mean, this is okay. So

00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:20.619
before I say this, I'm obviously way out of my

00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:24.339
lane. I'm not economically literate or sophisticated

00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:26.700
enough to really pursue this thought too much

00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:29.200
further. But it'd be really interesting to have

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.880
somebody sufficiently literate to talk about

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.920
what's happened with stablecoin flows during

00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.140
this time, especially US dollar, right? Because

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:43.059
the thesis on stablecoins especially like, okay,

00:22:43.059 --> 00:22:47.099
if you hypothesize that there are people with

00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:51.579
an whether or not it's an agenda, any body is

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:54.819
certainly first necessarily agree with. But if

00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:57.359
you hypothesize, there are people who have a

00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:01.259
thought out agenda somewhere behind Trump's plans,

00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.440
all of their various forms. And they've basically

00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.359
gone, hey, in exchange for you personally enriching

00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.960
yourself, we get to carry out our economic agenda.

00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.460
That's the that's the hypothesis, right? Is that

00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.710
behind the scenes, the guys have said, hey, We

00:23:14.710 --> 00:23:17.710
want to deregulate cryptocurrencies. Good news.

00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:20.549
That means you can rug pull a bunch of your supporters

00:23:20.549 --> 00:23:22.869
and make a load of money. And he's like, let's

00:23:22.869 --> 00:23:25.930
go. And then he's like, well, I love tariffs.

00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:29.009
And they're like, well, we want to revalue the

00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:34.390
dollar and re -onsure some silicon. some semiconductor

00:23:34.390 --> 00:23:37.230
manufacturing so that when China invades Taiwan,

00:23:37.250 --> 00:23:40.589
we don't lose our strategic access to microprocessors.

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:43.089
So he's like, but I get tariffs. And they're

00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:46.849
like, yes, yes, calm down, you get tariffs. And

00:23:46.849 --> 00:23:49.349
what we're thinking is we would like Denmark.

00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:52.289
And he's like, Denmark, no so worrying. They

00:23:52.289 --> 00:23:54.109
were like, okay, we'll send JD Vans to Denmark,

00:23:54.730 --> 00:23:57.250
then we can maybe they'll go independent. And

00:23:57.250 --> 00:23:58.430
then we can just say, hey, we're going to take

00:23:58.430 --> 00:24:01.940
your semiconductors. Amazing. Thank you. Also

00:24:01.940 --> 00:24:03.859
rare earth metals, but like you've got to assume

00:24:03.859 --> 00:24:06.720
that there's there's like some some kind of policy

00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.640
right joining all these things up behind the

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:14.519
scenes and his Not SEC, I don't know one of his

00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:16.400
officials I don't remember how all of these things

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.819
work in America has already written like an op

00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:20.799
-ed in The Economist some time ago basically

00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.200
being like here's what I do and You know to quote

00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.119
Al from Die Hard. He's got the ultimate playbook

00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:31.079
and he's running it step by step yeah well until

00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.720
they capitulated on the tariffs like that's but

00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:35.660
they were basically just running the playbook

00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:37.059
that they had said in the open they were going

00:24:37.059 --> 00:24:39.319
to run is my they said they're gonna run yeah

00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.079
we'll just keep increasing this until somebody

00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:44.019
blinks until somebody blinks right yeah but so

00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:46.019
the interesting thing right coming back to our

00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:50.259
little corner of the degenerate sphere is what

00:24:50.259 --> 00:24:52.640
happens to stable coins right because you kind

00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.819
of got to go okay well a lot of what the tariff

00:24:56.819 --> 00:24:59.359
stuff will do is about devaluing the dollar.

00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:03.140
A lot of it is going to cause trading partners

00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:06.740
to maybe think twice about how much exposure

00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:09.740
they want to the dollar from a trust perspective.

00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.799
Well, that's why they backed out the tariffs,

00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:15.279
right? Bonds were being sold hands over a fist

00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.200
in the market and they were like, oh, maybe this

00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.180
wasn't the best idea. Well, but that brings us

00:25:20.180 --> 00:25:23.740
back to all this stuff about Bitcoin reserve

00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:26.940
and also stuff about stablecoin deregulation

00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:32.289
is that I don't know, I'm sure other people have

00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:33.829
written about this, I'm sure there's literally

00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:35.430
loads of news articles that I could look at,

00:25:35.509 --> 00:25:36.990
but it was just a conversation that we're having

00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:40.769
here. But there must be, like maybe that's a

00:25:40.769 --> 00:25:43.250
part of the picture, right? Which is that they

00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:46.769
go, well, okay, it's a very cheap bet on the

00:25:46.769 --> 00:25:49.430
scale of an economy to deregulate stablecoins

00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:52.970
and go, hey, if all of the crypto guys are right

00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:56.390
and stablecoins end up being. a meaningful amount

00:25:56.390 --> 00:25:59.450
of transaction value or being held or blah, blah,

00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:02.009
blah, blah, blah. If we can make the US dollar

00:26:02.009 --> 00:26:05.269
the most used one, it's free real estate, right?

00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:09.690
If your goal is to try and devalue the dollar,

00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:12.490
but keep dollar hegemony, like people using the

00:26:12.490 --> 00:26:15.490
dollar, I don't know. Like I said, a smarter

00:26:15.490 --> 00:26:17.450
economist would have to explain that to me. I

00:26:17.450 --> 00:26:19.369
imagine that the amount of stablecoins in use,

00:26:19.430 --> 00:26:21.750
even if it exploded into mainstream use, would

00:26:21.750 --> 00:26:26.440
be still tiny, but I don't know. I don't know.

00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:33.200
But the role of the dollar itself is also a little

00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.640
bit at risk, right? There's this whole de -dollarization

00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:39.099
thing. Have you seen that come up? I think just

00:26:39.099 --> 00:26:41.420
countries trying to make the U .S. dollar less

00:26:41.420 --> 00:26:46.880
important to their own, I don't know, their own...

00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:48.200
I mean, that's probably a good bet after the

00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:51.839
last 10 days, but... Yeah. I think they want

00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.079
to rely less on the U .S. dollar, right? So...

00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:58.549
So the so it's interesting that that all the

00:26:58.549 --> 00:27:01.349
at least all the traditional popular stable coins

00:27:01.349 --> 00:27:04.210
have been USD based. And does that put those

00:27:04.210 --> 00:27:09.049
at risk as well? That's the question, right?

00:27:09.769 --> 00:27:13.630
Yeah. I mean, I suppose we have our correspondent

00:27:13.630 --> 00:27:16.890
PFC on the ground at Paris blockchain week. So

00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:19.049
maybe we can maybe we can ask next week when

00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:23.049
they're back. But to be honest, like, I think

00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:24.789
we were talking about beforehand that there didn't

00:27:24.789 --> 00:27:27.529
seem to be like, much like super exciting news,

00:27:27.569 --> 00:27:29.769
a lot of it is the same sort of stuff we've seen

00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:33.410
at other conferences, like state, you know, RWAs,

00:27:33.589 --> 00:27:36.630
by which people mean stable coins and institutions

00:27:36.630 --> 00:27:38.809
increasingly like taking up a lot of the air

00:27:38.809 --> 00:27:41.950
in the room was the perspective, like every single,

00:27:42.769 --> 00:27:44.750
almost every single thing I've seen was was stuff

00:27:44.750 --> 00:27:49.019
about like institutional access. I mean, ironic

00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:53.859
at a time when we're still getting threats of

00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:59.640
debanking and blah, blah, blah. Governments and

00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.180
banks and things love big institutions to play

00:28:02.180 --> 00:28:04.359
these games. But as soon as your garage band

00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:09.279
Mickey Mouse company with a handful of heads

00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:11.880
gets involved, they're like, no, this is not

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:16.420
for you. This is not your party. Well, they're

00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:18.940
not for you guys now. So boys will be boys in

00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:22.099
America. Yeah It's gone from boys will be boys

00:28:22.099 --> 00:28:25.420
in the UK to boys will be boys in America Yeah,

00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:28.039
yeah, they just they what was that? Yeah, what

00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:29.400
was that? Let me find that article actually real

00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.519
quick Yeah, there's a recent article from which

00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:35.440
I'll put the notes as well That what the SEC

00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:42.559
was dropping any any and all Crypto based investigations

00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:46.359
The purple people that were in it were purged,

00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:48.980
right? So like kind of by default they have to

00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:51.839
drop all of their litigation. That's like that

00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.380
That's the way to get shit get get out get out

00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:56.640
of problems, right? Like you just you fucking

00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.240
fire anybody who's involved in it like yeah Exactly.

00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:00.740
It's like hey mister president. Did you just

00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:04.359
like rug pull a bunch of american citizens? Wow

00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:08.000
It's like uh, yeah, it's like south manhattan

00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.140
court anything else just fucking just get rid

00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:12.220
of them all they can't things got to die and

00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:15.059
always there to Nobody's there to work the fucking

00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:18.000
stapler. What are they going to do? I'm the president.

00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:22.220
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this this DOJ ends crypto

00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.660
enforcement team shifts focus to terrorism and

00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:27.779
fraud. So basically the U .S. Justice Department

00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.160
abruptly shut down its national cryptocurrency

00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.940
enforcement team signaling a major shift in how

00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:34.319
the federal government handle crypto related

00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.900
crimes. Basically they were leaving focusing

00:29:38.900 --> 00:29:47.829
on anything else except for who victimized digital

00:29:47.829 --> 00:29:50.690
asset investors, victimized digital asset investors

00:29:50.690 --> 00:29:53.369
is a good one to keep, thank you. Or those who

00:29:53.369 --> 00:29:55.809
use digital assets to further its, in furtherance

00:29:55.809 --> 00:29:58.589
of criminal offenses such as terrorism, narcotics,

00:29:58.670 --> 00:30:00.569
and human trafficking, organized crime, hacking,

00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:04.529
and cartel and gang financing. Honestly, I don't

00:30:04.529 --> 00:30:05.730
know what else they were working on that was

00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:08.410
outside of those topics, but I assume maybe it

00:30:08.410 --> 00:30:10.839
was. Lavender five staking rewards and shit like

00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:14.880
that. Like what else was? They had a big investigation

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.740
because they heard the validator was selling

00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:20.619
their rewards. They were dumping. We have this

00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:22.559
validator dumping case. Can we get rid of this

00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:27.220
thing? This is one validator. They're taking

00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:29.200
their five percent and they're selling it every

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.630
fucking day. Yeah. And we have an insider former

00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:38.049
called L5. We don't know who L5 is. It's just

00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:40.730
like a darkened room with like a voice changer.

00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:46.390
Hello. I can confirm the jabby is the problem.

00:30:48.250 --> 00:30:51.769
He logs into his black plex box and pulls rewards

00:30:51.769 --> 00:30:54.839
and then sells them. You can find him walking

00:30:54.839 --> 00:31:00.839
his dog if you need to disappear Okay, that's

00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:05.480
funny keys on server To be fair, I think about

00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:09.799
a lot more validators keep pieces so funny There

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:15.519
was our man I was I Was pulling no data the other

00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.240
day because I was trying if I was trying to find

00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.319
out Monthly distributions for a bunch of cosmos

00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:24.140
networks just to test I just had this like, hunch

00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:26.119
about some random thing. And I was like, I was

00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:27.640
like, everything, all the data is on the blockchain,

00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:30.039
I can just look this up. And then it turned out

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.759
that because of validators pruning, no, I fucking

00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.019
couldn't. And then I was like, it's okay. I'm

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:36.920
pretty well connected to Cosmos, I'll just find

00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.339
an archive. And then I couldn't find archives.

00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:43.200
And then I was literally just like, it was just

00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:44.720
literally because of a conversation I had when

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.180
I was on campus. And then I ran into the person

00:31:47.180 --> 00:31:48.420
again, like a few days later, and they're like,

00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:50.140
Oh, did you find out the answer to that question?

00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:53.930
And I was like, I couldn't get the data easily,

00:31:54.130 --> 00:31:56.930
but I'll, I'll look it up. And they were like,

00:31:57.190 --> 00:31:58.890
couldn't get there easily. And I was like, this

00:31:58.890 --> 00:32:01.009
is again, one of the academics versus the rest

00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:03.390
of us type things where you're just like, yeah,

00:32:03.390 --> 00:32:05.230
I mean, people just prune notes, dude, like the

00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:08.970
day is gone. And they're like, it's fucking yesterday.

00:32:09.250 --> 00:32:11.710
And they're like, the day is not gone. It's still

00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:14.009
in the Merkle route. I'm like, yeah, a proof

00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:16.049
that there was no double spend. That's still

00:32:16.049 --> 00:32:18.609
there. The current state of the accounts balance.

00:32:18.710 --> 00:32:21.740
That's still there. everything else man is gone.

00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.579
It is gone. It's like Kaiser Soze. It's just

00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:29.779
gone. But I was trying to explain this as well.

00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:33.059
There was a conversation where somebody was talking

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:37.539
about like ledges, right, and the constraints

00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:39.180
to them. It's like, well, you know, ideally,

00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:43.180
right, you need all these ledges, like Ethereum,

00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.900
you know, they don't grow at a fixed size. They

00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:49.049
just the state balloons. I was like, no, they

00:32:49.049 --> 00:32:50.549
don't, they just get pruned. And they're like,

00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:52.349
they balloon forever. And I was like, dude, they

00:32:52.349 --> 00:32:54.589
get pruned. And they're like, they'll just keep

00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:58.490
growing. I was like, every serious non, like

00:32:58.490 --> 00:33:01.190
every serious ledger that gets out into the wild

00:33:01.190 --> 00:33:06.410
gets any usage feature one version 1 .1 is fix

00:33:06.410 --> 00:33:11.170
cola or feet colon ad pruning. Like that's what

00:33:11.170 --> 00:33:13.890
the git commit says, you know, I mean the change

00:33:13.890 --> 00:33:18.569
log. And they're like, yeah, but then you lose

00:33:18.569 --> 00:33:24.190
history. Exactly. That's the point. But then

00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:26.569
it's in the context of there's a bunch of ledger

00:33:26.569 --> 00:33:29.369
designs that you basically have a cycle. It's

00:33:29.369 --> 00:33:31.069
like a day or a month or something. And you can

00:33:31.069 --> 00:33:32.990
only see history in that cycle, and then it gets

00:33:32.990 --> 00:33:36.829
discarded and you start again. And I'm just like,

00:33:36.869 --> 00:33:38.410
well, you may as well just have the other one,

00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:40.109
because then you could at least ask what the

00:33:40.109 --> 00:33:42.940
state of every proof is. And it's like, whatever,

00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:44.559
it'll grow. And I was like, yeah, but it will

00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:46.680
get pruned. And they're like, well, we're not

00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.119
going to implement pruning. I was like, well,

00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:50.660
OK, fine. If you don't want to do literally the

00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:54.200
thing that like in my just because everybody

00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:58.140
else is doing like it's like, you know, we do

00:33:58.140 --> 00:33:59.700
something naughty when you're a kid and your

00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:01.880
mom's like, if all your friends did it, if all

00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:03.380
your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump

00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:05.640
off a cliff? And you're like, I don't know if

00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:07.559
it seemed fun or if there was like water underneath

00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:11.510
it or It's like that question, isn't it? Are

00:34:11.510 --> 00:34:14.329
there girls involved? I was about to say, are

00:34:14.329 --> 00:34:16.590
there girls watching? If there are girls going,

00:34:18.090 --> 00:34:20.110
you're a coward if you don't jump off that cliff.

00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:25.469
But I'm off that cliff. That's how I met my wife

00:34:25.469 --> 00:34:30.570
jumping off a cliff. Just because every other

00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:32.050
ledger does this doesn't mean it's a good idea.

00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:38.219
factually correct, because logically, I can't

00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:41.380
ever disprove that position. But this is the

00:34:41.380 --> 00:34:43.679
same argument my mom used to used with me about

00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.280
that cliff. And I only broke my foot. So it wasn't

00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:50.420
that bad in the grand scheme of things. Yeah.

00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:54.820
But yeah, let's just statement. It's a good time.

00:34:55.300 --> 00:34:58.000
Happy days. So this was tax. This was tax you're

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.440
trying to pull? Was that right? TX is For taxes

00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:08.980
or for no? I just wanted like a bunch of top

00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:13.179
tens of validators at validators voting power

00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:16.460
at a bunch of... Oh, I thought you were looking

00:35:16.460 --> 00:35:18.940
at... Oh, I got you. Fuck it. I don't even know

00:35:18.940 --> 00:35:21.639
where the hell you would get that. Yeah, because

00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:23.699
it's obviously all in the block headers basically

00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:27.309
like you can just call a historical info. but

00:35:27.309 --> 00:35:29.769
you need to archive. You'd have to have an archive.

00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:32.389
Yeah, basically, it was literally like a throwaway

00:35:32.389 --> 00:35:33.989
conversation where somebody was doing something

00:35:33.989 --> 00:35:35.789
on voting power. And I was like, voting power

00:35:35.789 --> 00:35:37.489
day is really easy to get. And they were like,

00:35:37.769 --> 00:35:39.949
what? You could just get like monthly snapshots

00:35:39.949 --> 00:35:43.989
for a network. I was like, in Cosmos, there's

00:35:43.989 --> 00:35:46.449
just a query for that on the binary, because

00:35:46.449 --> 00:35:48.690
they mainly worked in Ethereum. And I was like,

00:35:49.269 --> 00:35:51.550
I'm sure it's easy to get. And they're like,

00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:54.190
oh, you know. If you just showed me how to do

00:35:54.190 --> 00:35:55.730
it for a network, that'd be cool. And I was like,

00:35:55.730 --> 00:35:57.630
oh, let's see if I can pull some data. And then

00:35:57.630 --> 00:36:00.010
like, yeah, two days later, I just go like, it's

00:36:00.010 --> 00:36:03.289
all gone. Data's not there. Computer says no.

00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:07.710
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I misled you. My mistake.

00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:11.530
Peter says no. Peter says no. That's a good reference.

00:36:12.510 --> 00:36:15.190
It's an old one at this point. Everything's an

00:36:15.190 --> 00:36:20.289
old reference when you get old, isn't it? Yeah.

00:36:21.309 --> 00:36:25.460
So that was that. I continue to be underwhelming

00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:29.400
as an academic collaborator as much as I was

00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:31.980
as a blockchain engineer validator would be my

00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:40.920
review of that interaction. Hey, I did find another

00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.380
potential use case of blockchain as well the

00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.960
other day or an interesting one. I met somebody

00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:53.920
who worked on nuclear weapon transparency. Okay,

00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.400
and I thought we just talked about this putting

00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.420
nuclear codes on the blockchain. It's not smart.

00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:02.599
It's not smart Yeah, so what they're trying to

00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:04.719
do these nuclear weapon transparency people is

00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.019
put all of the codes or the they're basically

00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:11.260
like there are a bunch of organizations government

00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:14.739
and governmental and otherwise that keep track

00:37:14.739 --> 00:37:18.320
of where nuclear weapons are like for practical

00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:21.480
reasons like inventory and also to be like Yes,

00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.940
but has somebody just nicked that poorly guarded

00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:27.800
nuclear weapon that was sat on a yard in the

00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:30.440
Ural Mountains in Russia for 20 years or whatever?

00:37:33.099 --> 00:37:34.840
There's a whole bunch of reasons why you might

00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.619
want to do that from simple auditing to non -proliferation,

00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:39.619
and not everybody trusts governments to do it,

00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.639
so there are also independent organizations to

00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:43.880
do this. Anyway, there's also a bunch of reasons

00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.460
why people that have nuclear weapons do not like

00:37:46.460 --> 00:37:49.840
this information being out there. And it was

00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.500
really interesting, because this was a blockchain

00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.179
thing. And it was like, it was in a session,

00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.699
a thing about adversarial stuff, right? And then

00:37:58.699 --> 00:38:01.239
somebody talked about this and the other, I think

00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:02.960
it was like, deep in stuff, like energy grid

00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.000
stuff. And then this guy just goes like, well,

00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:07.260
you know, when it comes to adversarial stuff,

00:38:07.539 --> 00:38:08.940
somebody's just going to come to your house and

00:38:08.940 --> 00:38:12.559
shoot you in the fucking head. And I'm just like,

00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:16.320
sorry, what do you do? Where do you work? and

00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.340
they were just like all these crypto guys they're

00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:20.940
like hey i could just put 100 nodes in 100 countries

00:38:20.940 --> 00:38:23.960
and we're safe well let me tell you if somebody

00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:27.039
who has a nuclear armed state doesn't like what

00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.400
you're doing they'll send 100 assassins to 100

00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.559
countries and kill 100 people it's really no

00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.260
problem to do that yeah i was like damn this

00:38:36.260 --> 00:38:39.460
dude is cool i love this like but but you know

00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:41.619
it's interesting like but they were literally

00:38:41.619 --> 00:38:45.780
like looking at like is the security and organisational

00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:50.219
resilience model of any blockchain network. Proof.

00:38:50.219 --> 00:38:53.199
Proof against, yeah, the 100 assassins problem.

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.500
And yeah, I don't know what they concluded. They

00:38:57.500 --> 00:39:02.780
probably concluded no. Yeah. But I was like,

00:39:02.900 --> 00:39:05.440
man, that is a really, imagine doing that for

00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.460
a job. Now that's an interesting problem to solve,

00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:13.719
right? Like that level of, I mean, Guess the

00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:15.119
other question is like if you're having to deal

00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.360
with that level of adversarial planning Is the

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.440
assassin coming to your house? That would be

00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.340
that would be the thing. I'd worry about I guess

00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:28.559
yeah, but Yeah, really interesting like for a

00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:29.980
technical perspective. That's a really interesting

00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:32.559
problems to solve Though I guess it probably

00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:34.420
ends up not being a technical problem, right?

00:39:35.500 --> 00:39:38.099
Well when Cosmoverse was in was at Columbia,

00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:41.360
I remember there a lot of the Z guys was talking

00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:45.619
about like Isn't that like the number one human

00:39:45.619 --> 00:39:47.280
trafficking capital of the world or something?

00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:51.679
And it seems kind of interesting to have it there

00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.780
whenever like that would have been the prime

00:39:52.780 --> 00:39:54.880
location if any of us mattered at all, which

00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:56.559
clearly we didn't because none of us were robbed.

00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:58.920
Well, not including me, not us, because I didn't

00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.179
go, but none of them were robbed. Yeah. Whereas

00:40:02.179 --> 00:40:07.739
supposedly some people got targeted in Portugal,

00:40:07.900 --> 00:40:12.039
didn't they? Oh, yeah, that's right. I had the

00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:14.840
one before. Did we ever figure out what happened

00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:19.519
with the bathroom incident in Cosmoverse? Do

00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:23.159
you remember that? Mm -mm. I remember somebody

00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.900
working up in it. I remember somebody got...

00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:28.639
What was the bathroom incident? You have to remind

00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:30.739
me. I don't know what the bathroom incident.

00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:35.659
I think it was at Cosmoverse. Someone's reputation

00:40:35.659 --> 00:40:37.440
was tarnished because something happened in a

00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.579
bathroom. But I don't, I never, I'm not deep

00:40:40.579 --> 00:40:44.219
enough into, you know, the hive mind to figure

00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:46.739
out whatever happened. I want to ask around.

00:40:46.820 --> 00:40:50.739
Now I'm curious. I actually have no idea. I was

00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:53.099
even there and I don't even remember that being

00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:57.300
a thing at the time. I remember at least one

00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:00.480
friend of the podcast had an incident of potentially

00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.500
being targeted by somebody opportunistically

00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:10.710
trying to rob them. I had that one. So, but then

00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:12.590
I guess it was also super, super obvious. I mean,

00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:14.510
like, I don't know if it was just because it

00:41:14.510 --> 00:41:16.929
was post pandemic or whatever. Maybe there's

00:41:16.929 --> 00:41:19.369
still lots and lots of crypto people in Lisbon.

00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:24.150
I'm guessing yes. But it was definitely like,

00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:28.829
because it was around the time of the the salon,

00:41:28.969 --> 00:41:32.889
the big Solana event as well, like the people

00:41:32.889 --> 00:41:35.070
weren't trying to make them exactly being very

00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:36.929
good at making themselves not conspicuous. Do

00:41:36.929 --> 00:41:39.320
you know what I mean? they were definitely and

00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:41.619
it was like it was kind of still it was kind

00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:43.360
of still like pretty bullish at that point as

00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.980
well so people were being silly i think as well

00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:54.420
which didn't help hey um it's still on not still

00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:58.739
bullish i mean i think it is it's probably worth

00:41:58.739 --> 00:42:04.119
more than it was in 21 right oh i don't know

00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:08.769
question definitely maybe close Yeah, I just

00:42:08.769 --> 00:42:10.750
remember that that being like your crazy huge

00:42:10.750 --> 00:42:14.730
Solana party at the big Palace out on the headland

00:42:14.730 --> 00:42:18.070
with all of the really heavy security guards.

00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:22.929
It was like Okay, yeah, it's gone. It's gone

00:42:22.929 --> 00:42:25.570
through two spikes right 20 21 to hit 250 bucks

00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:30.510
Then it was at $30 $13 forever, right like 2022

00:42:30.510 --> 00:42:33.769
23 bucks and then it spiked again to 250 bucks

00:42:33.769 --> 00:42:37.679
and 2025. Yeah and right now we're at what under

00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.019
a hundred i thought oh no we're on 12 right now

00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:47.360
112 oh poor poor solana only 112 dollars five

00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:51.880
billion in trading value in 24 hours it's crazy

00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.940
it's insane what's what's interesting what's

00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:57.920
funny is like in in the academic stuff that i

00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:00.320
do like so much of the air in the room is sucked

00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:06.389
up by bitcoin then ETH, then ETHL2s that like,

00:43:06.690 --> 00:43:09.130
the, and then sometimes by like, you know, the

00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:11.070
ones that those of us in who actually work in

00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:13.809
this space, like really don't care about, like

00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:18.650
Ripple and stuff, like they're like, often on

00:43:18.650 --> 00:43:21.210
graphs, and you're like, oh, Ripple, how cute,

00:43:21.369 --> 00:43:26.070
how quaint, you sweet summer child, completely

00:43:26.070 --> 00:43:30.639
irrelevant. But like Solana is the like when

00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:32.840
anything any but any of the research has happened

00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:35.619
like maybe more recently at 2019 or onwards because

00:43:35.619 --> 00:43:37.159
it's almost gonna take like five years to get

00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:41.059
published You see like oh Solana new kid on the

00:43:41.059 --> 00:43:43.940
block a lot of cool stuff on Solana and it's

00:43:43.940 --> 00:43:46.300
just like it's just like oh, yes Solana, I guess

00:43:46.300 --> 00:43:49.480
like It's still massive, isn't it? But like I

00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.699
I don't know. I just can't Solana's pump dot

00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:53.619
fun. What else is on Solana other than pump dot

00:43:53.619 --> 00:43:59.519
fun? Helium there's actually oh shit helium helium.

00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.320
There's a pretty decent amount of shit on there

00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:03.980
Yeah, well in salon is also gonna come up with

00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:05.800
L2s here soon. They're ready. Yeah couple of

00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.500
test now right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, which

00:44:08.500 --> 00:44:11.000
I think it's such a This is a bit of a segue,

00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:15.139
but I think it's a really interesting Kind of

00:44:15.139 --> 00:44:20.880
deviation in that The story of shared security

00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.820
is so played out I can't believe it keeps popping

00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:28.599
back up Like, not to show an eigen layer too

00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.300
much, but it's just there's not much value proposition

00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:36.000
to it. And yet every new chain, it goes back

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:37.739
through the same cycle of, oh, okay, well, we

00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.400
can have more value by securing another chain.

00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:44.360
Well, it's because they look at the wider economy

00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:48.460
where we're in a situation where the ruling class

00:44:48.460 --> 00:44:51.500
in a situation of highly concentrated wealth

00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:54.480
are looking to return to rentier capitalism.

00:44:54.679 --> 00:45:00.840
or if you like, feudalism even, where the goal

00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:03.599
is to extract value via renting, via sitting

00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:07.579
on things. Even Amazon, arguably, they just have

00:45:07.579 --> 00:45:09.800
a marketplace. They connect people together and

00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:12.739
they rent. They sit on that as a rent. You pay

00:45:12.739 --> 00:45:14.800
Amazon rent to purchase goods, blah, blah, blah,

00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:17.059
all these centralized platforms. This is why

00:45:17.059 --> 00:45:19.900
decentralization matters. This is our This is

00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:21.900
what us crypto people are supposed to solve,

00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:24.619
right? Centralized digital platforms, their rentier

00:45:24.619 --> 00:45:27.480
capitalism is bad. It's concentration of power.

00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:31.000
And then what we did was we created all these

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:33.139
blockchains and they didn't scale. And so then

00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:35.699
we went, what we need to do is create rentier

00:45:35.699 --> 00:45:39.480
capitalism on the blockchain by adding more value

00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:49.539
to the home chain and giving security to the

00:45:49.539 --> 00:45:51.760
rentier chains. Oh, sorry, we can't call them

00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:53.800
rentier chains, surf chains. Oh, no, we can't

00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:56.480
call them that consumer chains. There we go.

00:45:57.500 --> 00:45:59.980
Because master and slave chain would be a little

00:45:59.980 --> 00:46:04.780
bit too on the nose. So a little bit. Yeah, that's

00:46:04.780 --> 00:46:07.639
my that's my hot take, which is not hot at all.

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.039
It's a cold take on on that whole model. Well,

00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:14.699
but like you said, it's been reinvented, right?

00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:18.420
It's so weird. It keeps being reinvented, but

00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:21.960
kind of in the same imagination. Polkadot, great.

00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:28.920
They come up with it. Fine idea. Whatever. But

00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:32.659
it's concluding itself over and over, right?

00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:37.260
Neutron, I believe... Today. It either just exited...

00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:42.280
Today. Okay, so it did. Yeah. So it's no longer

00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:46.880
a secured chain by... Correct. Right? Yeah, it

00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:52.760
dropped. Today's upgrade, 6 .0, exited out 120

00:46:52.760 --> 00:47:00.079
validators. Yeah. So it's down to 22 vals. Not

00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.699
the greatest selection in my eyes, but whatever.

00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.719
But yeah, and then a couple of join, like CleoMedi's

00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.619
joined back in, I think, with a couple hundred.

00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:14.340
So I think this is... There's still 165 allocated

00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:18.840
spots on this Neutron, but I know that, I don't

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:20.460
even know how this actually worked, Schultz,

00:47:20.539 --> 00:47:23.320
you would probably know, but at that upgrade,

00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:26.000
it went for like a block or two and then whoosh,

00:47:26.139 --> 00:47:29.260
all those other ones were exited instantly. Yeah,

00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:31.039
did it go to partial set or did it become fully

00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.340
its own chain? I think it went its own chain

00:47:33.340 --> 00:47:36.059
is what I thought, but because I thought the

00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:40.400
Neutron team made decisions on who was going

00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:43.679
to be in that list. They did, which is also another

00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.599
really interesting discussion. I'm seeing more

00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.820
and more that validators are starting to get

00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:54.079
paid USD values to validate on a network. Neutron's

00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:57.099
doing that. What do you mean? As opposed to each

00:47:57.099 --> 00:47:59.880
validator that you see that's listed there, $3

00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:04.519
,000 a month for doing so, USD. Plus rewards

00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:07.800
or plus the actual stake or what are they doing

00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:15.599
with that? Good. Question I assume it's Maybe

00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:18.119
it looks like inflation isn't going because none

00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:21.280
of them are getting rewards. Oh No, yeah, maybe

00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:24.360
I mean that might get turned off. Hey Yeah, yeah,

00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:28.019
yeah thousand USD which I Mean, that's great.

00:48:28.019 --> 00:48:30.920
I would it's flat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's

00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:33.400
basically It's basically like a this turns into

00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:35.699
like an RPC contract at that point. Yeah. Yeah,

00:48:35.739 --> 00:48:39.150
basically the lose keys which I think is I don't

00:48:39.150 --> 00:48:40.989
know, I kind of like that, I like that idea.

00:48:41.309 --> 00:48:46.349
I like the transition of being paid in potentially

00:48:46.349 --> 00:48:49.150
valueless coins and just getting paid in USD.

00:48:50.030 --> 00:48:53.610
But it's emblematic of a big change kind of in

00:48:53.610 --> 00:48:56.050
the ecosystem in my mind. Well, I mean, we were

00:48:56.050 --> 00:49:01.369
just talking about with the - PVW, right? Say

00:49:01.369 --> 00:49:03.929
that again. What? Perch blockchain week, all

00:49:03.929 --> 00:49:06.550
these events where the air in the room is being

00:49:06.550 --> 00:49:08.989
sucked up by institutions and stable coins, right?

00:49:10.090 --> 00:49:15.190
Yeah. The pipeline of shitcoin experimentation

00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:21.750
to, it's okay, just use stable coins. That dirty

00:49:21.750 --> 00:49:25.590
secret pipeline is in full swing. Yeah, that's

00:49:25.590 --> 00:49:27.489
a good point. That's kind of the conclusion,

00:49:27.630 --> 00:49:30.690
isn't it? So is there actually, are these getting

00:49:30.690 --> 00:49:36.230
rid of the mint on here? Do you know? I don't

00:49:36.230 --> 00:49:38.010
know. But you can look at them. I just looked

00:49:38.010 --> 00:49:40.010
at them. They're none of the validators are getting

00:49:40.010 --> 00:49:42.789
commissions despite. They have commissions listed,

00:49:43.369 --> 00:49:45.570
but they're not. I guess that explains the reason

00:49:45.570 --> 00:49:48.349
that nobody else has joined. Because what would

00:49:48.349 --> 00:49:51.530
be the point of running this unless the neutron

00:49:51.530 --> 00:49:53.269
team is going to. keep increasing the number

00:49:53.269 --> 00:49:55.050
of VALs that are in that set. I wonder why they

00:49:55.050 --> 00:49:58.570
even have 165 allocated. It must be a proposal

00:49:58.570 --> 00:50:00.969
coming to reduce that. Yeah, presumably. Yeah.

00:50:00.969 --> 00:50:04.730
You would think. Oh yeah, on -chain EPR is zero

00:50:04.730 --> 00:50:07.449
point zero. It basically is POA at that point.

00:50:08.230 --> 00:50:11.289
Yeah. Although it's weird because, I mean, if

00:50:11.289 --> 00:50:15.210
there's no rewards, then there's no reason to

00:50:15.210 --> 00:50:18.010
stake, right? There's no staking of that, which

00:50:18.010 --> 00:50:20.309
means this stake here. But people clearly are.

00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.119
I can't tell. I mean, for the most part, all

00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:28.320
these number of delegators, the top one has seven.

00:50:29.139 --> 00:50:32.579
And this this actually changed over 12 plus hours

00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:34.300
ago. Well, maybe not. It was like 10 a .m. this

00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:38.659
morning Eastern. So there are there's a small

00:50:38.659 --> 00:50:41.219
number of stakers in here. And who's occlusion?

00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.099
Is that is that? They haven't they haven't they

00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:47.920
haven't signed a single block. Good job, team

00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:51.480
occlusion. Isn't that like Zaki? Yes, it is Zacky

00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:57.599
isn't it? Yeah, it is Zacky. Cool job. Good selection.

00:50:57.880 --> 00:51:01.900
Zacky is just like, fucking, I guess 3000 a month

00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:05.199
ain't enough to sign a block. You have to do

00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:11.760
better than that. 3000 gets you one block. It's

00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:15.880
like when I do a fractional due diligence contract

00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:18.420
and you're like, oh yeah, that budget will give

00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:21.800
you one day of retainer a month. They call you

00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:23.199
up for the first month and like, can we have

00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:25.380
you on the 10th? He's like, yeah, I'll sign one

00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:30.480
block on the 10th. Pleasure doing business. For

00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:34.199
3 ,000, we sign one hour a day. That's a good

00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.510
deal. That's right. You're getting a real great

00:51:37.510 --> 00:51:40.090
deal. Just right in right inside the slashing

00:51:40.090 --> 00:51:43.690
parameters. slashing parameters minus one block.

00:51:44.190 --> 00:51:46.469
I mean, yeah, it's all kind of interesting, isn't

00:51:46.469 --> 00:51:49.650
it? But then like, I guess that's the the because

00:51:49.650 --> 00:51:52.230
it gets really interesting. It gets more interesting.

00:51:52.369 --> 00:51:55.750
I think if the chain did have inflation turned

00:51:55.750 --> 00:52:02.119
on, right? And and staking, but the validator's

00:52:02.119 --> 00:52:04.420
got no commission, but they were paid a flat

00:52:04.420 --> 00:52:07.239
rate. Then you have an interesting situation,

00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.739
right, where I think maybe the economic incentives

00:52:09.739 --> 00:52:12.159
don't begin to not align, particularly if there's

00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:16.119
like a bull run or something. But I mean, it's

00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:19.239
also back to we're in the cosmos ecosystem. Like,

00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:24.739
we're like a real bull run, like a 2021, 22 bull

00:52:24.739 --> 00:52:26.760
run. It's like the lady, the bit from the end

00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.119
of Titanic where the lady's like, it's been 80

00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:33.300
years. Like other ecosystems, like they have

00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:36.159
like a little spike every year or something at

00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.820
some point during the year, like energy just

00:52:38.820 --> 00:52:42.159
builds up. It's all bubbling and something happens,

00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:45.719
but. Yeah, this is so weird. So there's 10 second

00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.219
block times. That's really long. 10 second block

00:52:49.219 --> 00:52:54.699
times. I assume by design there is uh that's

00:52:54.699 --> 00:52:56.500
another interesting discussion to be had because

00:52:56.500 --> 00:52:58.199
there's been more and more 10 second block time

00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.039
chains coming up but anyway yeah keep going so

00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.719
a sign blocked window what's another one it's

00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:05.840
10 seconds sorry sorry sir I know you it's okay

00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:09.639
you need to read Celestia is one yeah uh Celestia's

00:53:09.639 --> 00:53:12.539
even 11 or 12 Lava is another one and then there's

00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:18.239
one more but Celestia has that subchain thing

00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:20.869
though right because don't the Doesn't it run

00:53:20.869 --> 00:53:25.190
like a sub -chain where it performs some sort

00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:27.070
of transaction at a really fast rate and then

00:53:27.070 --> 00:53:30.449
it somehow goes back to the L1 to finalize or

00:53:30.449 --> 00:53:32.429
something, kind of similar to Ethereum L1, L2?

00:53:33.230 --> 00:53:35.190
I don't think so. No? Well, I thought there was

00:53:35.190 --> 00:53:42.469
a fast way of doing that. Oh, wait, I'm looking

00:53:42.469 --> 00:53:44.170
at fucking Babylon. Never mind, I'm a fucking

00:53:44.170 --> 00:53:48.179
moron, dude. Babylon apparently Babylon's another

00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:50.820
10 second one Babylon has 10 second block times

00:53:50.820 --> 00:53:54.019
Is that right? Yeah 10 second block times and

00:53:54.019 --> 00:53:58.679
then 10 ,000 the signing block window is 10 ,000

00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:04.179
blocks at 60 % So you need to be down for 4 ,000

00:54:04.179 --> 00:54:09.179
blocks at 10 seconds is 11 at 12 hours. That's

00:54:09.179 --> 00:54:12.019
not too bad actually and there's a 0 % downtime

00:54:12.019 --> 00:54:16.630
thing. That's cool This is more and more of those.

00:54:17.690 --> 00:54:21.730
I mean, at this point, I think we can conclude

00:54:21.730 --> 00:54:26.090
that tombstone doesn't really work. No, I love

00:54:26.090 --> 00:54:27.710
talking to new teams about that. And they get

00:54:27.710 --> 00:54:30.389
all happy about it. They're like, sure it is.

00:54:30.429 --> 00:54:33.130
It's a big deal. I'm like, OK. It's like, OK,

00:54:33.429 --> 00:54:35.750
every major tombstone event in the Cosmos ecosystem

00:54:35.750 --> 00:54:37.750
has been reverted. But you know, whatever. Keep

00:54:37.750 --> 00:54:43.260
believing it. I guess the point is, it's kind

00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:45.440
of arbitrary, right? Is that it will get reverted.

00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:47.440
If it ever happens, it will just get reverted.

00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:52.760
But I suppose, I suppose, theoretically, you

00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.820
don't want your validators becoming shithot Go

00:54:55.820 --> 00:54:59.159
programmers compiling an actually valid version

00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:02.460
of the binary that just signs whatever the fuck

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:06.619
it feels like and does a nothing at stake attack.

00:55:07.799 --> 00:55:09.659
But I think the number of validators that could

00:55:09.659 --> 00:55:11.880
actually do that in the ecosystem is probably

00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:17.820
under five, maybe. And I think all of them would

00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:20.980
get busted. That's generous. I think everybody

00:55:20.980 --> 00:55:23.480
would be busted so fucking fast. It would be

00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:24.860
like, oh, no, there's been a nothing at stake

00:55:24.860 --> 00:55:28.679
attack. And it would be like, OK, it's short

00:55:28.679 --> 00:55:32.099
C. Frey doesn't fucking sign anything anymore.

00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:35.539
So it's not it's not needle cast like phrase

00:55:35.539 --> 00:55:38.340
useless in the cosmos So it's it's not it's not

00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:42.179
needle cast. So it's basically like Schultz these

00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:48.000
strange love Celefa pod or Maybe figment at a

00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:51.280
push like it's like one of a handful tiny handful

00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.320
That maybe have the capacity to pull off that

00:55:54.320 --> 00:56:05.500
attack. Oh and Oh, obviously jabby you if if

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:08.019
jabby was still validating more chains, of course

00:56:08.019 --> 00:56:14.139
and friends of the book skip as was I Don't think

00:56:14.139 --> 00:56:17.980
they run those games though. No What happened

00:56:17.980 --> 00:56:23.980
your audio? Yeah Yes a battle on my go ahead

00:56:23.980 --> 00:56:26.199
go ahead. Okay. I was gonna say this kind of

00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:28.920
is continued Continuation of the conversation.

00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:34.300
What does it say about our ecosystem that so

00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:36.280
many of the developers have kind of dropped out

00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:38.519
of being a developer and turned into a validator?

00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:44.280
And is that kind of what is damning us? No, I

00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:46.579
think we were damned before that. Possibly maybe

00:56:46.579 --> 00:56:49.059
but honestly, I think the developer thing is

00:56:49.059 --> 00:56:51.579
also it's a little bit also regulation everything

00:56:51.579 --> 00:56:53.380
right because a lot of the things that you can

00:56:53.380 --> 00:56:56.639
do as a developer in the ecosystem Like the core

00:56:56.639 --> 00:57:00.260
dev work is very difficult and is generally under

00:57:00.260 --> 00:57:05.920
rewarded right you and Not to be too crass about

00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:09.460
it is it sticks in the core a bit to? Facilitate

00:57:09.460 --> 00:57:11.099
other people to make a lot more money than you

00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:13.340
do especially like that's that's this ecosystem.

00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.159
It is about money That is the reality. And then

00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.139
there's all the other stuff you can do like smart

00:57:20.139 --> 00:57:23.639
contracts, DeFi protocols, things like this.

00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:25.239
They often don't work. They often don't make

00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.400
money. When they do, quite often the money is

00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:30.559
being made or the value is being locked by some

00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.099
other protocol unless you're the ones running

00:57:32.099 --> 00:57:33.739
the chain. That's what we saw with the stuff

00:57:33.739 --> 00:57:36.719
that we launched. The incentives aren't there.

00:57:37.579 --> 00:57:38.860
At the end of it, it comes back down to running

00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:41.440
a business. like validators don't always make

00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:43.280
money, but they at least have some kind of a

00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:44.699
business model that you can predict, you can

00:57:44.699 --> 00:57:46.099
do business development, you can blah, blah,

00:57:46.179 --> 00:57:50.840
blah. The developer model is just difficult,

00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.420
right? Unless you just want to go work for osmosis,

00:57:53.619 --> 00:57:58.460
which you can do. Or I think, obviously, Interchain

00:57:58.460 --> 00:58:01.840
Labs are hiring currently as well for the hub.

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.380
So you can go and work as an individual contributor

00:58:05.380 --> 00:58:10.519
if you want to do that. But the models and work

00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:12.460
so well apart from that. I think if you're more

00:58:12.460 --> 00:58:15.159
entrepreneurial the option the option is is much

00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:17.000
trickier I think cosmos I don't if that's just

00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:20.460
because of low Total value can't sorry low market

00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:28.500
count But I don't know I mean it does it definitely

00:58:28.500 --> 00:58:31.000
says somebody system and then something not good

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:33.980
We were talking about with with Eric as well

00:58:33.980 --> 00:58:36.219
because it's like not just developers, but like

00:58:36.219 --> 00:58:39.909
everybody who's selling something in in this

00:58:39.909 --> 00:58:43.730
ecosystem as a service of some sort now runs

00:58:43.730 --> 00:58:46.210
about to say hey you guys have these tokens sitting

00:58:46.210 --> 00:58:48.110
around instead of taking stuff out of the cap

00:58:48.110 --> 00:58:50.610
table just put these tokens to use it doesn't

00:58:50.610 --> 00:58:53.929
matter might as well be us versus l5 right like

00:58:53.929 --> 00:58:56.409
and then we will provide these other services

00:58:56.409 --> 00:58:59.269
as a discount based on blah blah blah and obviously

00:58:59.269 --> 00:59:00.769
there's a structure to that because they're not

00:59:00.769 --> 00:59:03.610
going to lose money on that right but in their

00:59:03.610 --> 00:59:06.460
eyes to the team, they're offering, they're offering

00:59:06.460 --> 00:59:09.019
a way to be able to have services for free, in

00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:10.960
essence, right? Because otherwise, if it's not

00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:12.760
going to, if it's not going to you or I, it's

00:59:12.760 --> 00:59:15.639
going to them and who gives a shit, right? Because

00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.639
they get a different service. But we provide

00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:19.460
services as well, just a different, different

00:59:19.460 --> 00:59:22.679
way of being able to provide those. So I think,

00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:24.619
and then some of those, I think, you know, does

00:59:24.619 --> 00:59:26.460
a good job, some of these other ones do not,

00:59:26.860 --> 00:59:32.719
like they do, they really poor jobs. But I think,

00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:34.480
you know, it's gonna be more and more popular.