WEBVTT

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hello and welcome to game of

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nodes a weekly podcast from

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independent validated teams

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rumors of our demise have

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been greatly exaggerated

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we're here with eric from

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zelek and that's not just a

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pun I made up that's

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actually just factually

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correct I've been told no

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more puns on the new and

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improved game of nodes is

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it weekly though

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Is it weekly?

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It's not a weekly podcast.

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We don't even know, right?

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Do you know what?

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That's muscle memory.

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This is, still, remember,

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a hundred and forty-three episodes,

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although we've now had a

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little month off to reset.

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I was just ill the entire month.

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I was just in pieces.

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But a hundred and

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forty-three is no surprise

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in my muscle memory.

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I'm going to keep saying weekly until

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forever I don't know yeah I

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like that I can't remember

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my memory you know whatever

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like it's rote learned at

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this point like we've done

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it so much we've done it

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through the good times and

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the bad and anyway it's

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weekly in our hearts but

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for those who want accurate

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information it's moving to

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fortnightly yes okay so we

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should do let's do a tiny

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bit of housekeeping and

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then we will talk to our

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guest this is a new year's

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resolution a little bit

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late we are going to talk

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to our guest before the

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halfway point of the podo

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But we're now biweekly,

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twenty two hundred UTC.

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That's one hour later on a Thursday.

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One day later.

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Not a Wednesday.

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So we're moving back one day,

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moving back one hour.

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Everything else remains the same.

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We well, no, we we.

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So our mandate,

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our core mandate now is to

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talk to people.

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uh so we will be striving to

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have at least somebody show

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up every uh every episode

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starting with eric of

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zealock and um I mean you

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know where else would we

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start we we will also make

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an effort to know what that

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person does and is a part

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of so jerome did his

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homework this time he sent me a duck

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We had a pre-meeting to make

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some very brief and confusing notes.

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And we will make every

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effort to include them in

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conversation and talk about what they do.

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And if we don't, I will quit.

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Is he on a prompter?

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yeah it feels like it feels

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like you know one of those

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things when a politician

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does something real bad um

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you know before trump and

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you could just do whatever

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you wanted and nobody would

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catch you out anyway and

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and they have to stand up

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on that podium and they've

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got their wife and their

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kids next to them and

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they're really like stock

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still and they're just like

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I will make every effort to

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make up for a bad thing

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Whilst not talking about bad

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thing and serving the

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citizens of this town.

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That's, you know, right now.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't know if I like your

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little demands either.

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Like if Schultz doesn't read the notes,

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you're going to quit.

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Like, is that what you're saying?

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Well, Schultz is not reading the notes.

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I didn't read the notes.

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No.

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Fuck me.

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I know Eric.

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He's a busy guy.

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Did you know that Eric's a cat lady?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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That was like our first topic.

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I didn't.

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It's true.

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You told me you liked bees.

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What is this?

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I like bees.

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I do like bees.

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It's true.

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Matter of fact,

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I've got a Lavender Five tattoo.

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That's not true.

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It is a bee tattoo.

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I gave a shit about that too.

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I was like, what the fuck?

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Why do you have a bee tattoo?

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I was like, where's your rhino tattoo?

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He's like, well,

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it's not really Schultz-y.

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I'm not allowed to discuss

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where the rhino tattoo is on the podcast.

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They've asked me not to show that one.

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I actually live in the wild, right?

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Here's a fun game you can play at home.

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There are a lot of companies

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in the world called Rhino

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that do a whole bunch of random ass stuff,

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right?

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It's true.

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If you see out in the wild

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Rhino on something like a company,

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like a logo, something like that,

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take a picture of it at us

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on Twitter at gamer nodes.

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And it shows what you got, right?

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Because this is, I would say,

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every couple of months in the group chat,

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something you set up against.

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So far, I have Bollard manufacturer,

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gym equipment.

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Bollard is on a post to stop cars.

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You know that they put in the road?

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Yeah, yeah.

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It was just like, manufactured by Rhino.

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And I was like, fucking A. Amazing.

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But yeah, gym equipment, obviously.

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Yeah, so bollards.

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And then there was something else.

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There's an actual Dex.

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There's something else stamped Rhino,

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but totally different Rhino.

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So I've seen three in the wild.

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There is the Rhino rack,

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which is like a roof.

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There's a Rhino rack.

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I have that on my truck.

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Yep, yep, yep.

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There's a Rhino.

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There's a Dex called Rhino.

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Listen, it's a popular animal.

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Why do the logos always have

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the rhino looking right as well?

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I know, right?

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It looks right.

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Is that a thing?

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Is that a thing where the

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logo has to look right?

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Yeah, mine's pointing up and to the right.

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Is the Jesus fish pointing left?

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That's really where this

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business and this market is going.

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Where is the Jesus fish pointing?

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That is a keen observation.

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There's a Jesus fish point

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left because then maybe

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it's that the rhino is Satan.

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Because they're often read as well.

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Oh, yes, that's fair.

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Yes.

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I think it's probably the

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like we read left to right with tattoos.

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You're supposed to point

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something towards the

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interior of the body.

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I don't know.

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Yeah,

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you're supposed to point something

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towards the middle line of the body.

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You don't have something

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facing out of the body, typically.

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I did find one by searching

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Rhino logo that is facing to the left,

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but maybe that's just some

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sort of beta-like designer

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who doesn't understand.

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Do you feel like it's a less

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trustworthy company than if

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the Rhino were facing to the right?

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I feel like they're being

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aggressive towards me, to be honest.

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Was it upside down because

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it's in Australia?

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Yeah.

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He's like, it's upside down.

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It's back to front.

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I don't know what his right is.

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That's the Coriolis effect.

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Yeah, that's exactly right.

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In the Northern Hemisphere,

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they all face to the right.

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That's right.

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That's exactly what's going on.

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uh I did know this podcast

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is about yeah what which

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direction logos face I'm

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subscribed I'm one of your

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six subscribers so we're

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finding out new things all

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the time I love it one of

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our six subscribers I'll

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let you know eric we have

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we have very close to a

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thousand subscribers some

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of them may be fake I don't

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know you know what man

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still counts still counts baby

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Those bots got to learn from

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somebody where to stake

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their cryptocurrency.

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So let's move on.

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Eric.

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Yes.

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You went to a Denver.

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None of us did.

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What was the vibe like?

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You know what, man?

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It was kind of mellow, right?

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I think a lot of people have

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had different takes on what that means,

00:07:55.665 --> 00:07:56.567
right?

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I felt like it was chill.

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It was relaxed.

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You know what was nice?

00:07:59.970 --> 00:08:02.091
It was like sixty degrees Fahrenheit.

00:08:02.112 --> 00:08:02.793
It was like fifteen,

00:08:02.833 --> 00:08:04.334
sixteen degrees Celsius the whole time.

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I'm from Minnesota, so it was much warmer.

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Got a little bit of sun.

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I enjoyed myself while I was out there.

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I tend to.

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I think Denver is a

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perfectly acceptable city.

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Although candidly,

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the city of Denver's logo

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is a little too close to Zellick's logo.

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I've written them a letter.

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Have you proposed a tourist

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board that they put on their sign,

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their city sign?

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Welcome to Denver.

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Perfectly acceptable city.

00:08:32.424 --> 00:08:34.346
You know,

00:08:34.365 --> 00:08:36.225
it is of the cities of the world.

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It is one.

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No, I like Denver just fine.

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You know, man,

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I had a really good time personally.

00:08:40.866 --> 00:08:41.287
I think that

00:08:44.264 --> 00:08:45.784
with all conferences, right?

00:08:45.826 --> 00:08:47.447
I think the real alpha is at

00:08:47.466 --> 00:08:48.187
the side events.

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And part of that's because I

00:08:52.392 --> 00:08:54.153
tend to find that, and I mean,

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this is true of the time

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that we've spent together, right?

00:08:57.456 --> 00:08:58.376
I tend to find that the

00:08:58.417 --> 00:08:59.658
face-to-face interactions

00:08:59.839 --> 00:09:00.438
with the people that you

00:09:00.458 --> 00:09:01.580
really care about and the

00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:02.140
people that you're really

00:09:02.181 --> 00:09:03.501
interested to work with or

00:09:03.522 --> 00:09:04.984
get to know better, et cetera, et cetera,

00:09:05.644 --> 00:09:06.544
those things continue to

00:09:06.585 --> 00:09:07.265
matter quite a lot,

00:09:07.446 --> 00:09:09.148
continue to be really high impact, right?

00:09:11.149 --> 00:09:12.971
I think it's fun to have a

00:09:13.010 --> 00:09:13.892
lot of side events.

00:09:14.131 --> 00:09:16.033
It's cool to have the main

00:09:16.073 --> 00:09:17.173
conference itself be this

00:09:17.214 --> 00:09:18.676
like nucleation or shelling

00:09:18.716 --> 00:09:20.657
point that brings everybody together,

00:09:21.177 --> 00:09:21.717
gives people the

00:09:21.738 --> 00:09:22.938
opportunity to get on stage,

00:09:23.379 --> 00:09:25.400
talk about their thing, have cool panels.

00:09:25.682 --> 00:09:26.422
Seemed like there were still

00:09:26.461 --> 00:09:28.004
cool panels at the main event, right?

00:09:28.024 --> 00:09:28.423
Yeah.

00:09:29.524 --> 00:09:30.986
I think the main event is

00:09:31.326 --> 00:09:32.168
interesting and it's

00:09:32.187 --> 00:09:33.188
attractive for people that

00:09:33.208 --> 00:09:34.370
are new to the space,

00:09:34.931 --> 00:09:36.292
whether that's retail or

00:09:36.331 --> 00:09:38.293
whether that's just folks

00:09:38.313 --> 00:09:39.676
that have just joined.

00:09:40.096 --> 00:09:41.337
I think that that continues

00:09:41.378 --> 00:09:42.778
to be the sort of thing that matters.

00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:45.321
Uh, cause it gives them that experience,

00:09:45.662 --> 00:09:45.881
right?

00:09:46.302 --> 00:09:47.182
I don't find myself spending

00:09:47.202 --> 00:09:48.124
a ton of time there other

00:09:48.144 --> 00:09:48.965
than to go harass my

00:09:48.985 --> 00:09:50.485
friends that are working in

00:09:50.505 --> 00:09:52.368
the booths for their various projects.

00:09:52.668 --> 00:09:52.967
Um,

00:09:53.008 --> 00:09:54.208
and then I get to take their shirts and

00:09:54.249 --> 00:09:55.190
call them nerds or whatever.

00:09:55.910 --> 00:09:57.991
Um, but no, I, uh,

00:09:58.032 --> 00:09:59.634
but I tend to continue to enjoy that.

00:09:59.714 --> 00:10:01.495
So I had a great time at Denver.

00:10:01.514 --> 00:10:04.618
Um, got to see some people that I, well,

00:10:04.638 --> 00:10:05.057
for one,

00:10:05.298 --> 00:10:06.340
I got to meet much of the Zalek

00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:07.561
team in person for the first time.

00:10:08.020 --> 00:10:08.301
You know,

00:10:08.321 --> 00:10:09.701
I recently joined that team just

00:10:09.741 --> 00:10:10.761
in the middle of January or

00:10:10.782 --> 00:10:11.422
something like that.

00:10:11.461 --> 00:10:12.982
So we basically had a little offsite,

00:10:13.482 --> 00:10:15.263
got to hang out, got to co-work together,

00:10:15.423 --> 00:10:17.083
which I, again, really enjoyed.

00:10:17.303 --> 00:10:18.163
Wonderful to get to spend

00:10:18.183 --> 00:10:19.004
some time with them all in

00:10:19.065 --> 00:10:21.125
person and learn more about

00:10:21.205 --> 00:10:22.926
each of them and go bowling

00:10:22.946 --> 00:10:23.885
and stuff like that together.

00:10:26.826 --> 00:10:30.609
So we are between forty and fifty.

00:10:31.869 --> 00:10:33.429
The extreme bulk of that is

00:10:33.470 --> 00:10:34.490
security researchers.

00:10:34.610 --> 00:10:34.850
Right.

00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:37.091
So our auditors, you know,

00:10:38.046 --> 00:10:39.570
thirty five, forty something in that range,

00:10:39.610 --> 00:10:40.010
I believe,

00:10:40.051 --> 00:10:41.073
for our auditing team and then

00:10:41.114 --> 00:10:42.236
about fifteen people either

00:10:42.256 --> 00:10:43.399
in sales or back office.

00:10:46.231 --> 00:10:48.572
Yeah, but great to really, again,

00:10:48.592 --> 00:10:49.253
spend some time there.

00:10:49.913 --> 00:10:51.114
I think the take home message for me,

00:10:51.293 --> 00:10:52.433
I had a ton of fun in Denver.

00:10:53.215 --> 00:10:54.455
The side events were the key

00:10:54.534 --> 00:10:55.355
alpha as always.

00:10:55.395 --> 00:10:57.436
It's kind of like make your own schedule,

00:10:57.657 --> 00:10:57.876
right?

00:10:58.236 --> 00:10:59.297
It's an a la carte menu to

00:10:59.336 --> 00:11:01.597
get to spend time and learn

00:11:01.618 --> 00:11:02.557
about different things and

00:11:02.599 --> 00:11:04.178
talk to people building different things.

00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:07.419
I had another point I was

00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:09.321
going to make and it has

00:11:09.380 --> 00:11:10.922
totally eluded me.

00:11:11.581 --> 00:11:13.241
I think uh in my experience

00:11:13.282 --> 00:11:16.863
at these uh events like my

00:11:16.923 --> 00:11:18.264
primary reason for side

00:11:18.283 --> 00:11:20.384
events is to eat because I

00:11:20.403 --> 00:11:21.424
can't afford to being

00:11:21.445 --> 00:11:24.225
australian so uh you know

00:11:24.264 --> 00:11:25.546
you can always get some

00:11:25.846 --> 00:11:27.745
good sliders at the side

00:11:27.765 --> 00:11:29.267
event and a sneaky beer

00:11:29.326 --> 00:11:29.986
just to keep your

00:11:30.027 --> 00:11:31.586
sustenance up while you

00:11:31.647 --> 00:11:33.548
like secondarily do some bd

00:11:36.302 --> 00:11:36.701
Yeah.

00:11:36.822 --> 00:11:38.023
Sliders and beer is like,

00:11:38.722 --> 00:11:40.243
I think that that's what BD stands for.

00:11:40.263 --> 00:11:41.302
You just have to pull

00:11:41.322 --> 00:11:42.443
letters out of the middle.

00:11:42.464 --> 00:11:42.583
Yeah.

00:11:42.604 --> 00:11:45.504
Everyone's fueled by sliders and beer.

00:11:46.283 --> 00:11:49.284
Did you find that there were

00:11:49.325 --> 00:11:52.426
many... This might sound dumb.

00:11:52.725 --> 00:11:53.905
Did you find that there was

00:11:53.985 --> 00:11:56.886
much attendance from users

00:11:57.567 --> 00:11:58.267
and the public?

00:11:58.346 --> 00:12:00.607
Or do you think this year's

00:12:00.668 --> 00:12:01.748
primarily attended...

00:12:02.437 --> 00:12:04.318
by people in the industry,

00:12:04.539 --> 00:12:08.522
devs and that type of stuff, VC?

00:12:08.542 --> 00:12:10.244
I think Denver in particular

00:12:10.303 --> 00:12:12.764
tends to be one where the

00:12:12.826 --> 00:12:14.246
attendees are most likely

00:12:14.267 --> 00:12:15.267
to be people that work in

00:12:15.287 --> 00:12:16.707
the industry and have

00:12:16.748 --> 00:12:18.048
worked in the industry for a while.

00:12:19.750 --> 00:12:20.870
That's my experience.

00:12:21.272 --> 00:12:21.971
I find that something like

00:12:22.011 --> 00:12:25.855
ConsenSys has more folks that are

00:12:27.543 --> 00:12:28.523
maybe TradFi that it's

00:12:28.602 --> 00:12:30.644
entering the industry or

00:12:30.803 --> 00:12:31.624
people that are like

00:12:31.724 --> 00:12:33.104
adjacent to crypto and

00:12:33.124 --> 00:12:33.985
building something that is

00:12:34.024 --> 00:12:35.524
cryptoish or uses crypto.

00:12:36.284 --> 00:12:37.164
But I tend to find that

00:12:37.264 --> 00:12:39.326
Denver in particular is

00:12:39.765 --> 00:12:41.025
primarily people that work

00:12:41.066 --> 00:12:41.666
in the industry.

00:12:42.365 --> 00:12:42.907
Does that make sense?

00:12:43.706 --> 00:12:46.927
I feel like I rarely see just users,

00:12:47.067 --> 00:12:48.248
although actually here's a cool thing.

00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:49.999
Eigen layer put on this

00:12:50.038 --> 00:12:51.739
hackathon that was like

00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:54.200
multiple days long and they

00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:55.039
brought in teams from

00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:56.000
different universities

00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:56.820
across the country.

00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:58.821
Um, on my flight back home,

00:12:58.841 --> 00:12:59.520
I actually had the

00:12:59.541 --> 00:13:01.000
opportunity to meet up with the,

00:13:01.061 --> 00:13:02.681
or rather met, uh,

00:13:02.701 --> 00:13:03.561
the president of the

00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:05.422
university of Minnesota blockchain club.

00:13:06.182 --> 00:13:06.701
Um,

00:13:06.721 --> 00:13:07.861
cause I saw he was wearing an Eigen

00:13:07.902 --> 00:13:09.121
layer swag and actually

00:13:09.142 --> 00:13:10.302
just had a cup of coffee with him,

00:13:10.543 --> 00:13:11.423
you know, about an hour ago.

00:13:11.442 --> 00:13:12.942
So I was just,

00:13:13.062 --> 00:13:14.263
I caused us to be a hair

00:13:14.322 --> 00:13:15.342
tardy cause I was hurrying

00:13:15.383 --> 00:13:15.943
back from that.

00:13:15.964 --> 00:13:16.903
But so that was cool.

00:13:17.024 --> 00:13:17.244
Right.

00:13:17.663 --> 00:13:18.303
Um, I think,

00:13:18.644 --> 00:13:19.384
Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:19.424 --> 00:13:19.605
Right.

00:13:19.705 --> 00:13:19.985
I've like,

00:13:20.745 --> 00:13:21.826
we don't have a huge crypto

00:13:21.865 --> 00:13:23.086
scene out here in Minnesota,

00:13:23.947 --> 00:13:25.508
which is surely at least

00:13:26.067 --> 00:13:26.908
partially my fault.

00:13:27.048 --> 00:13:27.589
Even I've worked in the

00:13:27.609 --> 00:13:28.509
industry for as long as I

00:13:28.529 --> 00:13:30.390
have and have made very

00:13:30.431 --> 00:13:32.892
little effort to like get

00:13:32.932 --> 00:13:33.852
out there and do things.

00:13:35.053 --> 00:13:36.734
Well, I know, I know Ian's out there.

00:13:36.754 --> 00:13:37.434
He's a validator.

00:13:37.455 --> 00:13:38.975
He's out there in Minnesota as well.

00:13:39.076 --> 00:13:41.496
So you all should start a local, like,

00:13:41.716 --> 00:13:43.818
you know, meet, meet up.

00:13:43.859 --> 00:13:44.479
What team is he with?

00:13:45.511 --> 00:13:45.951
PFC.

00:13:46.231 --> 00:13:46.491
PFC.

00:13:46.533 --> 00:13:46.613
Yeah.

00:13:46.633 --> 00:13:46.712
Yeah.

00:13:46.732 --> 00:13:48.253
Oh yeah.

00:13:48.413 --> 00:13:49.134
You guys should plug me in.

00:13:49.354 --> 00:13:53.615
I, um, my man, my man.

00:13:53.655 --> 00:13:53.836
Yeah.

00:13:53.855 --> 00:13:54.336
Sorry, Ian.

00:13:54.495 --> 00:13:54.956
Bad news.

00:13:55.876 --> 00:13:57.857
Um, no, that's great.

00:13:57.878 --> 00:13:58.238
Bad news bears.

00:13:58.258 --> 00:13:59.418
Bad news bears.

00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:02.500
You are now.

00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:07.201
Um, yeah, I mean, I'd want to,

00:14:07.241 --> 00:14:08.263
I'm going to get together

00:14:08.283 --> 00:14:09.283
with them and we'll do a

00:14:09.302 --> 00:14:10.543
little presentation for their club.

00:14:10.583 --> 00:14:12.544
I've got some friends that, uh,

00:14:13.373 --> 00:14:14.173
that work in the industry

00:14:14.193 --> 00:14:14.714
that live out here.

00:14:14.734 --> 00:14:17.515
It's not a ton of them, but yeah,

00:14:17.535 --> 00:14:18.096
so it'd be fun.

00:14:18.856 --> 00:14:19.437
It's amazing.

00:14:19.496 --> 00:14:20.577
Like you don't think there

00:14:20.638 --> 00:14:24.480
are people around and like you,

00:14:25.140 --> 00:14:26.601
you may even try to seek

00:14:26.621 --> 00:14:28.604
them out and not be able to find any, but

00:14:29.863 --> 00:14:30.942
I thought that was true of

00:14:31.003 --> 00:14:33.624
Brisbane here in sunny Queensland,

00:14:33.703 --> 00:14:34.283
Australia.

00:14:35.063 --> 00:14:38.304
And I just got added to an

00:14:38.325 --> 00:14:40.745
Oz Buildora's group on

00:14:40.865 --> 00:14:41.865
Telegram by someone.

00:14:42.166 --> 00:14:44.846
And turns out they are

00:14:44.865 --> 00:14:46.605
around and they're building stuff,

00:14:46.625 --> 00:14:48.047
they're active chatting.

00:14:48.106 --> 00:14:49.527
So I think I might start

00:14:49.687 --> 00:14:50.667
trying to do the same here

00:14:50.706 --> 00:14:52.307
and just going and joining

00:14:52.368 --> 00:14:53.648
some of these meetup groups and...

00:14:54.707 --> 00:14:55.587
share with the crowd a bit

00:14:55.629 --> 00:14:57.448
like aa I suppose so you

00:14:57.489 --> 00:14:59.029
can go you can go find out

00:14:59.049 --> 00:15:02.131
about the latest it's a bit

00:15:02.231 --> 00:15:03.532
I mean sorry no offense

00:15:03.552 --> 00:15:05.373
obviously because alora

00:15:05.472 --> 00:15:07.573
previous uh previous

00:15:07.614 --> 00:15:09.794
project but where I am it's

00:15:09.875 --> 00:15:15.837
literally ethereum l two ai

00:15:16.721 --> 00:15:19.861
blockchain and um every time

00:15:19.922 --> 00:15:20.481
I go to one of those

00:15:20.522 --> 00:15:22.702
meetups like you're like

00:15:22.842 --> 00:15:23.923
everybody you know you talk

00:15:23.943 --> 00:15:26.585
to they're just like have

00:15:26.605 --> 00:15:27.424
you heard a bit of this

00:15:27.465 --> 00:15:28.125
thing that's happening in

00:15:28.184 --> 00:15:29.264
ethereum and it's like yeah

00:15:29.284 --> 00:15:30.745
we primarily work in cosmos

00:15:30.765 --> 00:15:31.806
they're like what's that is

00:15:31.826 --> 00:15:33.326
it an ai thing you're like it's

00:15:34.293 --> 00:15:36.154
you could actually I guess

00:15:36.174 --> 00:15:37.456
you could you can use it

00:15:37.495 --> 00:15:38.797
for whatever and they're

00:15:38.817 --> 00:15:39.797
like but are you doing an

00:15:39.836 --> 00:15:42.018
ai thing like no and I'm

00:15:42.077 --> 00:15:43.759
not on ethereum as I

00:15:43.778 --> 00:15:44.899
mentioned we're not in that

00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:46.280
ecosystem really other than

00:15:47.942 --> 00:15:49.582
ssv stuff and by that point

00:15:49.602 --> 00:15:50.802
they've already died of

00:15:50.863 --> 00:15:51.644
boredom and they're in the

00:15:51.663 --> 00:15:55.065
ground um yeah yeah

00:15:55.085 --> 00:15:56.686
degeneracy needs constant

00:15:56.745 --> 00:15:58.427
constant stimulus to stay

00:15:58.466 --> 00:16:02.028
alive it's like uh I give

00:16:02.068 --> 00:16:03.190
off that anti vibe

00:16:04.109 --> 00:16:05.490
my vibe's negative towards

00:16:05.711 --> 00:16:06.991
towards that ethereum thing

00:16:07.032 --> 00:16:09.874
and then yeah man you start

00:16:09.913 --> 00:16:11.134
talking about dvt and then

00:16:11.154 --> 00:16:12.397
the lights go out so

00:16:12.677 --> 00:16:14.298
exactly I'm just like yeah

00:16:14.317 --> 00:16:14.818
I don't think it really

00:16:14.859 --> 00:16:15.818
works unless you start

00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:17.280
thinking about dv and

00:16:17.301 --> 00:16:18.981
there's boom damn they're

00:16:19.883 --> 00:16:21.063
down and out you're just

00:16:21.144 --> 00:16:22.245
like checking that pulse

00:16:22.544 --> 00:16:28.389
it's like yeah get it up um

00:16:28.409 --> 00:16:31.273
so eric like you have been involved in

00:16:33.063 --> 00:16:35.245
an sdk chain a cosmos sdk

00:16:35.265 --> 00:16:39.850
chain um alora and moving

00:16:40.010 --> 00:16:42.673
on into like the rest of

00:16:42.712 --> 00:16:44.034
crypto with zelic I mean

00:16:44.054 --> 00:16:48.418
they aren't born out of um

00:16:48.438 --> 00:16:51.140
the cosmos sdk scene uh you

00:16:51.160 --> 00:16:52.722
know their roots are in

00:16:52.883 --> 00:16:57.748
other uh well their roots are not out of

00:16:58.817 --> 00:17:00.538
validating and stuff like

00:17:00.558 --> 00:17:01.700
that they're more like

00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.281
security dev we'll talk

00:17:04.301 --> 00:17:05.682
more about that um later

00:17:05.762 --> 00:17:07.744
but being a part of that

00:17:07.805 --> 00:17:10.086
team like do you find uh

00:17:10.866 --> 00:17:13.910
that there is sort of other

00:17:14.109 --> 00:17:15.590
more exciting blockchain

00:17:15.611 --> 00:17:17.051
stuff that's developing out

00:17:17.092 --> 00:17:18.512
there that's not associated

00:17:18.553 --> 00:17:21.096
with the sdk is there like

00:17:21.135 --> 00:17:22.936
anything that you've seen

00:17:22.977 --> 00:17:24.898
at the moment that is like exciting

00:17:26.365 --> 00:17:27.846
Not necessarily in like use

00:17:27.885 --> 00:17:28.826
case and that type of stuff,

00:17:28.866 --> 00:17:29.827
more like on the actual

00:17:29.847 --> 00:17:31.829
blockchain technology ecosystems.

00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:33.090
Sure.

00:17:34.412 --> 00:17:38.775
I think this is a tough one to answer,

00:17:38.835 --> 00:17:39.075
right?

00:17:39.195 --> 00:17:41.436
I think that one of the

00:17:43.078 --> 00:17:44.140
fascinating and fantastic

00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:45.039
things about Cosmos in

00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.642
particular is that like, I mean,

00:17:47.682 --> 00:17:48.702
it's tried and true.

00:17:48.782 --> 00:17:50.084
It's battle tested, right?

00:17:50.224 --> 00:17:53.007
You can essentially build

00:17:53.166 --> 00:17:54.367
any type of ecosystem

00:17:54.851 --> 00:17:56.893
you would like to on top of it, right?

00:17:57.933 --> 00:17:58.775
You can look around and see

00:17:58.795 --> 00:18:01.037
like achieving consensus by

00:18:01.116 --> 00:18:03.720
leveraging Cosmos and then

00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:04.339
having that be the

00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:05.622
historical record for something.

00:18:06.241 --> 00:18:08.044
I think it makes it super flexible.

00:18:08.064 --> 00:18:09.664
I'm trying to think of an

00:18:09.765 --> 00:18:10.946
actual answer to your question.

00:18:15.049 --> 00:18:16.192
I mean, even within Cosmos,

00:18:16.711 --> 00:18:18.093
a lot of teams in recent years

00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:19.931
I'm not going to say months

00:18:20.191 --> 00:18:21.211
years like in the last

00:18:21.251 --> 00:18:22.973
twelve months have pivoted

00:18:23.013 --> 00:18:24.435
from actually using just

00:18:24.496 --> 00:18:26.157
like the cosmos sdk to just

00:18:26.198 --> 00:18:27.838
pulling out and using comet

00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:30.321
bft yeah and then building

00:18:30.362 --> 00:18:31.784
like evm chains out of it

00:18:32.203 --> 00:18:33.806
well I mean hyperlink is a

00:18:33.826 --> 00:18:34.926
good example of that right

00:18:35.106 --> 00:18:37.150
like um there's there's a

00:18:37.190 --> 00:18:39.372
lot of cosmos dna in in

00:18:39.412 --> 00:18:40.432
hyperliquid I think if you

00:18:40.452 --> 00:18:41.013
look at what the

00:18:41.747 --> 00:18:44.851
like the factors around how

00:18:44.892 --> 00:18:47.796
you engage with a node on Cosmos, right?

00:18:49.218 --> 00:18:50.138
They've leveraged a bunch of

00:18:50.159 --> 00:18:51.259
that in building out their

00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:54.785
own kind of customized SDK for that.

00:18:56.067 --> 00:18:56.807
Yeah, man, I don't know.

00:18:56.867 --> 00:18:57.269
I think that

00:19:01.194 --> 00:19:01.714
You look at some of the

00:19:01.734 --> 00:19:03.916
interoperability stuff like espresso,

00:19:06.157 --> 00:19:07.098
not strictly Cosmos,

00:19:07.138 --> 00:19:08.220
but does leverage some

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:09.520
version of hot stuff, right?

00:19:09.560 --> 00:19:11.281
Which is some type of

00:19:11.362 --> 00:19:13.042
offshoot of tendermint in

00:19:13.063 --> 00:19:13.843
some way or another.

00:19:15.223 --> 00:19:16.625
I don't have an answer for this question,

00:19:16.664 --> 00:19:16.765
man.

00:19:16.785 --> 00:19:17.885
There's so many of these

00:19:17.945 --> 00:19:19.987
networks and these chains

00:19:20.027 --> 00:19:21.548
and like constructions that

00:19:21.567 --> 00:19:23.210
I'm still learning about, right?

00:19:24.069 --> 00:19:24.971
I think one of the problems

00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:25.851
with this industry, well,

00:19:25.891 --> 00:19:26.652
it's not a problem.

00:19:26.672 --> 00:19:28.752
It's a really, it's a good thing now,

00:19:28.813 --> 00:19:29.032
right?

00:19:29.053 --> 00:19:29.133
Yeah.

00:19:30.253 --> 00:19:32.395
rewind six or seven years.

00:19:33.916 --> 00:19:34.076
I mean,

00:19:34.096 --> 00:19:36.178
I've been in crypto since working

00:19:36.218 --> 00:19:38.298
in crypto full time since like,

00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:40.601
but I've been in the scene since like,

00:19:40.641 --> 00:19:41.221
or whatever, right?

00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:42.701
I think it was easy enough

00:19:42.721 --> 00:19:43.643
to keep track of like,

00:19:43.682 --> 00:19:47.685
what's going on in and then

00:19:47.826 --> 00:19:49.467
in this Cambrian explosion happened,

00:19:50.027 --> 00:19:50.267
right?

00:19:51.008 --> 00:19:52.189
And a lot of this building and this,

00:19:54.589 --> 00:19:57.051
this sort of advanced research

00:19:58.547 --> 00:19:59.528
happening behind the scenes

00:19:59.567 --> 00:20:00.609
and certainly I wasn't

00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:01.770
really aware of cosmos at

00:20:01.790 --> 00:20:03.031
the time because I was have

00:20:03.212 --> 00:20:04.594
long been pretty evm native

00:20:05.494 --> 00:20:06.737
um but we get to this place

00:20:06.817 --> 00:20:09.799
now where dude if you close

00:20:09.819 --> 00:20:12.143
your eyes for a week you're

00:20:12.163 --> 00:20:13.785
like what the hell is a pre-confirmation

00:20:15.236 --> 00:20:16.856
And why is everybody talking about it now?

00:20:16.896 --> 00:20:19.838
Or whatever, right?

00:20:19.878 --> 00:20:20.858
You just get to a place

00:20:20.878 --> 00:20:22.019
where you can't keep up.

00:20:22.760 --> 00:20:24.221
And it's cool, right?

00:20:24.642 --> 00:20:25.182
Especially if you're an

00:20:25.241 --> 00:20:26.903
autodidact and you have a curious mind.

00:20:27.482 --> 00:20:28.324
There's just constantly

00:20:28.364 --> 00:20:29.064
something to learn about.

00:20:29.124 --> 00:20:31.465
Like, what's MegaEth?

00:20:32.046 --> 00:20:32.707
What's Monad?

00:20:33.487 --> 00:20:33.686
Like,

00:20:33.787 --> 00:20:34.788
I know that these things are not

00:20:34.807 --> 00:20:35.989
necessarily strictly new,

00:20:36.028 --> 00:20:40.510
but how is Initia different from XYZ,

00:20:41.311 --> 00:20:41.551
you know?

00:20:42.568 --> 00:20:43.789
it also means that there's a

00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:44.789
constant stream of

00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:47.471
iteration and also a constant,

00:20:47.911 --> 00:20:50.051
like a ever expanding

00:20:50.112 --> 00:20:53.993
wasteland of old ideas that are chains,

00:20:54.713 --> 00:20:57.415
uh, which, I mean,

00:20:57.455 --> 00:20:58.955
some people here know all

00:20:58.976 --> 00:21:00.876
too much about that you on

00:21:00.896 --> 00:21:03.478
an endless support regime

00:21:03.498 --> 00:21:04.838
for things that were a

00:21:04.898 --> 00:21:06.159
thing and now they're not.

00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:07.319
Um,

00:21:08.624 --> 00:21:10.125
so yeah I get what you mean

00:21:10.285 --> 00:21:11.144
you blink you miss it

00:21:11.184 --> 00:21:12.445
there's like so much new

00:21:12.486 --> 00:21:13.726
stuff popping up overnight

00:21:14.145 --> 00:21:15.126
I definitely can't keep on

00:21:15.207 --> 00:21:16.907
top of it so is that like

00:21:17.008 --> 00:21:19.348
primary uh like focus from

00:21:19.429 --> 00:21:21.029
the bd side in the kind of

00:21:21.509 --> 00:21:24.171
um like the day-to-day like

00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:25.971
uh bread and butter I guess

00:21:25.991 --> 00:21:27.632
the organization is it like

00:21:27.652 --> 00:21:29.133
ethereum or is it more

00:21:29.192 --> 00:21:30.374
widely based than that I

00:21:30.394 --> 00:21:31.134
mean I assume it's a bit of

00:21:31.173 --> 00:21:31.794
everything but like

00:21:32.054 --> 00:21:33.055
generally is the bulk of it

00:21:33.075 --> 00:21:35.276
sort of like ethereum and that ecosystem

00:21:36.558 --> 00:21:38.601
So we are super widely based, right?

00:21:38.681 --> 00:21:39.300
One of the things that we

00:21:39.340 --> 00:21:40.742
pride ourselves in is the

00:21:40.782 --> 00:21:42.463
ability to rapidly like

00:21:42.943 --> 00:21:45.306
scale up and ramp up to

00:21:45.586 --> 00:21:48.848
in-depth knowledge in like new alt VMs,

00:21:48.989 --> 00:21:49.210
right?

00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:50.931
We've done a ton of work

00:21:50.971 --> 00:21:53.673
obviously in like the EVM DeFi space,

00:21:54.233 --> 00:21:55.474
but we've also done a ton

00:21:55.494 --> 00:21:56.615
of work with core node

00:21:56.655 --> 00:21:58.717
software for things like Cosmos,

00:21:59.738 --> 00:22:01.359
a lot of these move L ones,

00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:04.220
That's really where we pride

00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:05.621
ourselves in is the ability

00:22:05.641 --> 00:22:07.280
to be flexible and to be

00:22:07.381 --> 00:22:08.661
first to a new network or a

00:22:08.840 --> 00:22:10.602
new kind of regime, like you say,

00:22:11.402 --> 00:22:13.301
or a new VM.

00:22:13.321 --> 00:22:13.862
That's one of the things

00:22:13.882 --> 00:22:14.883
that we really pride ourselves in.

00:22:15.103 --> 00:22:16.502
And we've borne that out over the years,

00:22:16.542 --> 00:22:16.722
right?

00:22:17.182 --> 00:22:18.323
We've worked deeply with a

00:22:19.163 --> 00:22:19.923
lot of different teams

00:22:19.963 --> 00:22:21.804
building on move VMs and

00:22:22.604 --> 00:22:23.683
zero knowledge stuff.

00:22:23.743 --> 00:22:26.125
And it's, so suffice,

00:22:26.184 --> 00:22:27.384
I think the short answer is that

00:22:29.468 --> 00:22:30.128
In many ways,

00:22:30.989 --> 00:22:32.269
a good portion of the work

00:22:32.289 --> 00:22:33.530
that we do is EVM based,

00:22:33.990 --> 00:22:34.811
but I think that's more a

00:22:34.912 --> 00:22:36.292
function of the market and

00:22:36.333 --> 00:22:37.134
people building in the

00:22:37.173 --> 00:22:39.015
market than it is what our

00:22:39.115 --> 00:22:40.316
appetite is or really even

00:22:40.336 --> 00:22:41.396
what our expertise is in.

00:22:41.416 --> 00:22:43.538
So does that make sense?

00:22:44.538 --> 00:22:44.719
Yeah.

00:22:44.739 --> 00:22:45.140
Fair play.

00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:45.779
Oh, it's interesting.

00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:46.721
You mentioned move as well.

00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:47.040
Cause that's,

00:22:47.060 --> 00:22:48.882
I guess a relatively very

00:22:49.762 --> 00:22:50.884
well in the grand scheme of things, like

00:22:51.481 --> 00:22:52.383
It's probably ancient now.

00:22:52.423 --> 00:22:54.384
It's been out for two years in production.

00:22:56.025 --> 00:22:57.665
But I guess in terms of

00:22:57.685 --> 00:22:58.626
high-profile chains,

00:23:00.567 --> 00:23:02.048
it's a more recent

00:23:02.088 --> 00:23:04.270
high-profile virtual machine, I suppose.

00:23:05.171 --> 00:23:08.532
Yeah, I think that's a fair way to put it,

00:23:08.972 --> 00:23:09.554
right?

00:23:10.614 --> 00:23:12.154
We end up indexing to something, right?

00:23:12.715 --> 00:23:13.715
Many of you guys are pretty

00:23:13.736 --> 00:23:15.576
heavily indexed to the Cosmos world,

00:23:15.998 --> 00:23:16.498
but that doesn't mean

00:23:16.518 --> 00:23:17.518
you're not totally capable

00:23:17.557 --> 00:23:19.579
in different VMs, right?

00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.121
And understanding the

00:23:21.161 --> 00:23:22.320
intricacies of running those.

00:23:24.462 --> 00:23:25.383
But yeah, I think, like I said,

00:23:25.423 --> 00:23:25.963
it's one of those things

00:23:25.983 --> 00:23:27.805
where you blink and then you're like,

00:23:28.085 --> 00:23:29.546
oh shit,

00:23:29.566 --> 00:23:31.227
there's like ten new chains and

00:23:31.247 --> 00:23:32.106
they're all based on this

00:23:32.326 --> 00:23:34.107
kind of core move infrastructure, etc.,

00:23:34.167 --> 00:23:34.269
etc.,

00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.161
I better hurry up and figure that out.

00:23:38.201 --> 00:23:38.882
What's your feeling?

00:23:39.021 --> 00:23:39.241
Like,

00:23:39.321 --> 00:23:40.643
I guess like it'd be interesting to

00:23:40.663 --> 00:23:41.742
hear a different perspective on this,

00:23:41.803 --> 00:23:44.684
but like, I think when we, um,

00:23:44.724 --> 00:23:45.825
whenever we come back from like,

00:23:45.925 --> 00:23:47.486
especially conferences,

00:23:48.307 --> 00:23:50.008
obviously first question is vibe check.

00:23:50.067 --> 00:23:52.009
But second question is like, what, like,

00:23:53.077 --> 00:23:54.618
you tend to get like from

00:23:54.659 --> 00:23:55.479
your own individual

00:23:55.499 --> 00:23:56.740
perspective and your experience,

00:23:56.779 --> 00:23:58.200
like a feeling of a

00:23:58.220 --> 00:23:59.300
direction of travel or

00:23:59.340 --> 00:24:03.682
something that's going to maybe, you know,

00:24:03.702 --> 00:24:04.403
even if that direction of

00:24:04.423 --> 00:24:05.182
travel is just how it's

00:24:05.202 --> 00:24:06.784
going to affect you,

00:24:06.804 --> 00:24:07.844
what's your sense of like

00:24:08.384 --> 00:24:09.464
how the next twelve months

00:24:09.505 --> 00:24:11.105
is like going to shake up

00:24:11.145 --> 00:24:12.665
for you in terms of like

00:24:12.746 --> 00:24:14.606
your focus and your direction of travel,

00:24:14.686 --> 00:24:17.468
like based on what you've seen recently?

00:24:17.508 --> 00:24:18.548
That's a really great question.

00:24:19.128 --> 00:24:20.189
I mean, the short answer,

00:24:20.209 --> 00:24:21.309
the vibe check is like,

00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:25.823
I think for as cynical as I am,

00:24:25.883 --> 00:24:26.744
I remain an eternal

00:24:26.805 --> 00:24:28.848
optimist and I want to take

00:24:28.868 --> 00:24:30.612
away the silver lining from everything.

00:24:30.673 --> 00:24:30.853
Right.

00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:34.332
Denver was lower energy, I think,

00:24:34.372 --> 00:24:35.452
than in previous years that

00:24:35.472 --> 00:24:35.993
I've attended.

00:24:36.835 --> 00:24:38.395
But I think that's for a few reasons.

00:24:38.596 --> 00:24:38.695
One,

00:24:39.017 --> 00:24:40.097
the market's doing whatever the hell

00:24:40.117 --> 00:24:41.519
it's doing, which is kind of insane.

00:24:43.381 --> 00:24:43.681
Candidly,

00:24:43.721 --> 00:24:44.882
I didn't talk about prices with

00:24:45.583 --> 00:24:46.304
pretty much anybody.

00:24:46.683 --> 00:24:47.785
That didn't really come up.

00:24:48.986 --> 00:24:50.146
But I think it's just that

00:24:50.167 --> 00:24:51.469
the way things have gone

00:24:51.528 --> 00:24:53.330
over the last twelve, eighteen,

00:24:53.371 --> 00:24:54.191
twenty four months,

00:24:55.031 --> 00:24:56.212
people have a little fatigue.

00:24:57.085 --> 00:24:58.787
right the these like rapid

00:24:58.807 --> 00:25:01.590
fire releases of things um

00:25:01.631 --> 00:25:02.451
have made people a little

00:25:02.491 --> 00:25:06.498
tired but I think that the

00:25:06.557 --> 00:25:09.000
encouraging thing about the

00:25:09.040 --> 00:25:10.923
vibe was that people aren't giving up

00:25:11.431 --> 00:25:11.651
Right.

00:25:12.112 --> 00:25:12.873
The people that I know that

00:25:12.913 --> 00:25:14.233
are building cool stuff are

00:25:14.273 --> 00:25:15.355
still here for the long term.

00:25:15.895 --> 00:25:16.717
They're still interested.

00:25:16.757 --> 00:25:17.637
They're still engaged.

00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:19.840
Maybe they've kind of like

00:25:19.861 --> 00:25:21.041
got a little whiplash from

00:25:21.241 --> 00:25:22.063
how things have been,

00:25:23.144 --> 00:25:24.145
but they are interested and

00:25:24.165 --> 00:25:26.248
they're committed to to, I don't know,

00:25:26.268 --> 00:25:27.469
moving the space forward as a whole.

00:25:27.630 --> 00:25:27.789
Right.

00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:28.210
And doing

00:25:29.048 --> 00:25:31.568
cool unique shit that moves

00:25:31.608 --> 00:25:33.289
the needle I think that

00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:34.951
really is my takeaway is

00:25:34.971 --> 00:25:36.011
that people are like sick

00:25:36.071 --> 00:25:38.133
of kind of extractive stuff

00:25:38.772 --> 00:25:39.953
and extractive players

00:25:40.034 --> 00:25:41.394
extractive I don't know

00:25:41.414 --> 00:25:43.115
protocols or whatever uh

00:25:43.215 --> 00:25:44.297
and they're really keen to

00:25:44.336 --> 00:25:48.138
like talk to people about

00:25:48.959 --> 00:25:49.980
what they're actually

00:25:50.019 --> 00:25:51.019
building and how they can

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:52.121
actually work together

00:25:52.728 --> 00:25:55.509
Like Logo X Logo is out and it's like,

00:25:55.749 --> 00:25:56.869
what is this fundamental

00:25:56.910 --> 00:25:57.789
thing that we're doing,

00:25:58.089 --> 00:25:59.510
this atomic collaboration

00:26:00.111 --> 00:26:01.171
that actually matters,

00:26:01.211 --> 00:26:03.412
that each party is uniquely

00:26:03.451 --> 00:26:05.373
bringing something to?

00:26:05.393 --> 00:26:05.873
There's that.

00:26:06.173 --> 00:26:06.913
You asked me a second

00:26:06.953 --> 00:26:08.855
question and it was

00:26:08.914 --> 00:26:09.894
something to the effect of like,

00:26:10.434 --> 00:26:11.174
where do I see my

00:26:11.236 --> 00:26:12.155
trajectory over the next

00:26:12.195 --> 00:26:12.935
twelve months and what I'm

00:26:12.955 --> 00:26:13.817
going to be focusing on?

00:26:15.217 --> 00:26:17.238
For me, I think as a function of

00:26:18.737 --> 00:26:20.518
the move for me, which, you know,

00:26:20.538 --> 00:26:22.019
it was a Chainlink years before,

00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.480
I was at Chainlink node operator,

00:26:25.520 --> 00:26:26.021
Linkpool,

00:26:26.061 --> 00:26:27.603
who does validation work for a

00:26:27.623 --> 00:26:28.844
number of different chains too now.

00:26:29.443 --> 00:26:30.565
And then I was the head of

00:26:30.605 --> 00:26:32.086
technical ecosystem at Elora, right,

00:26:32.105 --> 00:26:33.346
where I onboarded the validator core,

00:26:33.425 --> 00:26:34.707
which is why I know you chuckleheads.

00:26:37.308 --> 00:26:38.849
And I worked on technical BD stuff.

00:26:38.869 --> 00:26:40.030
They're a crypto AI company,

00:26:40.230 --> 00:26:41.571
worked on technical BD stuff there.

00:26:44.073 --> 00:26:44.453
For me,

00:26:46.266 --> 00:26:46.965
I think the biggest

00:26:46.986 --> 00:26:48.366
difference is I'm going to

00:26:48.386 --> 00:26:50.707
be more focused on L ones

00:26:50.727 --> 00:26:55.008
and L twos and their ecosystems, right?

00:26:55.048 --> 00:26:55.628
Like Inc.

00:26:56.449 --> 00:26:57.769
Um,

00:26:57.788 --> 00:26:59.049
made some great connections with those

00:26:59.089 --> 00:26:59.470
guys.

00:27:00.329 --> 00:27:00.670
Uh,

00:27:00.690 --> 00:27:01.630
I think what they're doing is really

00:27:01.650 --> 00:27:02.009
cool.

00:27:02.269 --> 00:27:04.030
I think the entire notion of like,

00:27:04.851 --> 00:27:05.530
I don't want to call it a

00:27:05.570 --> 00:27:08.652
centralized exchange sponsored, um, L two,

00:27:08.672 --> 00:27:09.893
but like that's where their

00:27:09.913 --> 00:27:11.173
DNA comes from, obviously.

00:27:11.212 --> 00:27:11.393
Right.

00:27:11.432 --> 00:27:11.613
They're,

00:27:11.692 --> 00:27:12.992
they're closely affiliated with

00:27:13.032 --> 00:27:13.634
crack and they're,

00:27:13.693 --> 00:27:14.534
they're born out of that.

00:27:16.782 --> 00:27:19.644
I think if you look at base

00:27:20.384 --> 00:27:23.365
and the key innovations

00:27:23.425 --> 00:27:25.007
they've made and the

00:27:25.067 --> 00:27:26.866
benefit that they have from

00:27:26.906 --> 00:27:28.407
the tooling that comes out of Coinbase,

00:27:28.428 --> 00:27:30.429
which is to say things like, you know,

00:27:30.469 --> 00:27:31.308
their agent software

00:27:31.328 --> 00:27:33.029
development kit or the like

00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:35.151
massive distribution that

00:27:35.171 --> 00:27:36.751
the Coinbase wallet confers.

00:27:37.531 --> 00:27:38.272
I think those are all

00:27:39.913 --> 00:27:41.233
important and powerful things.

00:27:41.493 --> 00:27:41.953
So for me,

00:27:42.013 --> 00:27:43.454
I guess the take home message is like,

00:27:45.236 --> 00:27:46.518
I want to learn more about L

00:27:46.718 --> 00:27:48.520
ones in the space,

00:27:49.122 --> 00:27:50.703
focus on how we can bring value to them,

00:27:50.923 --> 00:27:52.125
their different ecosystems.

00:27:53.007 --> 00:27:53.428
Um,

00:27:53.448 --> 00:27:55.171
Solana is one that I just like need to

00:27:55.211 --> 00:27:56.913
continue digging into and diving into.

00:27:56.992 --> 00:27:58.915
I think that there's a big shift in, uh,

00:28:00.305 --> 00:28:02.165
This may just be sampling

00:28:02.185 --> 00:28:03.788
bias for me or perspective bias,

00:28:04.367 --> 00:28:05.229
that it seems like there's

00:28:05.249 --> 00:28:06.009
a lot of teams that are

00:28:06.028 --> 00:28:07.349
building really cool stuff

00:28:07.369 --> 00:28:08.611
that moves the needle on Solana.

00:28:10.172 --> 00:28:11.313
Solana's long had this rap

00:28:11.333 --> 00:28:13.115
for pumped up fun or

00:28:13.154 --> 00:28:14.976
whatever is the only use case for it.

00:28:18.479 --> 00:28:18.659
Again,

00:28:18.699 --> 00:28:20.400
I think that's sampling bias in a

00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:20.920
lot of ways.

00:28:22.605 --> 00:28:23.825
That's what people are talking about.

00:28:24.545 --> 00:28:25.586
And so that's what people see.

00:28:26.306 --> 00:28:27.165
And it's engaging and it's

00:28:27.205 --> 00:28:28.806
fun to really see a ten

00:28:28.826 --> 00:28:29.807
thousand X or whatever.

00:28:30.426 --> 00:28:31.166
And so that's what people

00:28:31.186 --> 00:28:31.747
want to talk about.

00:28:33.186 --> 00:28:34.107
Crypto Twitter is like not

00:28:34.127 --> 00:28:36.548
excited about RWAs or whatever,

00:28:36.887 --> 00:28:37.868
but I think that that's the

00:28:37.888 --> 00:28:40.148
stuff that actually is is something.

00:28:40.288 --> 00:28:45.069
So, yeah, I think like just with Solana,

00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:47.971
people want to build where there's

00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:50.131
liquidity right and money

00:28:50.851 --> 00:28:54.732
and uh I think while you

00:28:54.752 --> 00:28:56.934
know a lot of the the meme

00:28:56.954 --> 00:28:58.055
coin stuff might have just

00:28:58.095 --> 00:29:00.957
been a a passing fad that

00:29:02.096 --> 00:29:03.758
who what was that oh was

00:29:03.778 --> 00:29:05.818
that the uh that was the

00:29:05.858 --> 00:29:07.019
sticker yeah you gotta love

00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:08.240
that lag to australia

00:29:08.721 --> 00:29:09.681
everybody else laughs so

00:29:09.701 --> 00:29:10.561
they're like five seconds

00:29:10.602 --> 00:29:15.805
later so like you know if

00:29:15.825 --> 00:29:17.486
from my perspective the the

00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:19.941
the meme coin stuff brought

00:29:20.560 --> 00:29:22.162
users and liquidity to

00:29:22.362 --> 00:29:23.522
Solana in a big way.

00:29:24.002 --> 00:29:26.805
And now that is maybe a

00:29:26.845 --> 00:29:27.865
playground where people can

00:29:27.925 --> 00:29:29.767
actually build out of there

00:29:29.866 --> 00:29:32.469
into more meaningful things.

00:29:32.989 --> 00:29:34.970
Now that there's more attention on Solana.

00:29:35.049 --> 00:29:36.211
I mean, like the, you know,

00:29:36.929 --> 00:29:38.769
Again, a meme coin, but I mean,

00:29:39.650 --> 00:29:41.990
the Trump coin was on Solana,

00:29:42.050 --> 00:29:43.871
so that's bought in an

00:29:43.931 --> 00:29:45.270
exponential number of people.

00:29:45.892 --> 00:29:48.271
I mean, you're not wrong, right?

00:29:48.652 --> 00:29:52.093
Who will never come back?

00:29:52.113 --> 00:29:53.294
That may unfortunately be true.

00:29:54.334 --> 00:29:55.855
I don't remember who said this to me,

00:29:55.894 --> 00:29:58.674
but it's a thing that I've long believed,

00:29:58.714 --> 00:29:58.914
right?

00:29:58.994 --> 00:30:00.316
Toys precede tools.

00:30:01.104 --> 00:30:01.263
I mean,

00:30:01.284 --> 00:30:03.505
you see that in like childhood

00:30:03.525 --> 00:30:04.045
development,

00:30:04.265 --> 00:30:06.525
little kids play with toys

00:30:06.605 --> 00:30:07.786
that are like the tools

00:30:07.806 --> 00:30:08.965
they see adults using.

00:30:09.306 --> 00:30:10.566
And I think that's also true

00:30:11.027 --> 00:30:11.846
in this space.

00:30:12.007 --> 00:30:13.406
When you're seeing people build things,

00:30:14.027 --> 00:30:14.988
you build something,

00:30:18.648 --> 00:30:19.209
you get something like

00:30:19.229 --> 00:30:20.249
pumped up fun and it brings

00:30:20.288 --> 00:30:22.529
people in and it gets them

00:30:22.569 --> 00:30:24.130
engaged and it gets them using the chain.

00:30:24.690 --> 00:30:25.789
And then suddenly the guys

00:30:25.809 --> 00:30:27.151
that built Phantom or whatever, like,

00:30:27.290 --> 00:30:27.810
oh shit,

00:30:28.823 --> 00:30:31.663
this needs to work better or whatever,

00:30:31.743 --> 00:30:31.943
right?

00:30:32.003 --> 00:30:34.025
And now to Phantom's credit,

00:30:34.065 --> 00:30:34.806
that was one of the best

00:30:34.905 --> 00:30:35.865
user experiences I've ever

00:30:35.905 --> 00:30:36.685
had with a wallet.

00:30:38.186 --> 00:30:39.008
That felt good.

00:30:39.367 --> 00:30:40.327
It was easy to use.

00:30:40.567 --> 00:30:41.409
It was nice to use.

00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:44.150
So toys precede tools,

00:30:44.170 --> 00:30:44.930
which is to say like,

00:30:45.529 --> 00:30:46.250
you get this stuff that's

00:30:46.290 --> 00:30:47.510
engaging and fun and maybe

00:30:47.550 --> 00:30:49.352
like not super serious.

00:30:50.051 --> 00:30:52.032
And that enables the people

00:30:52.053 --> 00:30:53.433
that are building around it to go, oh,

00:30:53.473 --> 00:30:53.614
well,

00:30:53.673 --> 00:30:56.154
we need to make this better because

00:30:56.174 --> 00:30:56.914
when people get here to

00:30:57.015 --> 00:30:57.935
actually build stuff,

00:30:58.953 --> 00:31:00.576
actually build stuff that

00:31:00.616 --> 00:31:01.357
experience needs to be

00:31:01.377 --> 00:31:02.019
quite good for them.

00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:04.884
Or even just try to use some

00:31:04.903 --> 00:31:05.525
things that are

00:31:06.846 --> 00:31:08.287
good when they're not being

00:31:08.487 --> 00:31:10.107
used but trash once they

00:31:10.127 --> 00:31:11.929
get some users like I know

00:31:12.028 --> 00:31:14.891
Eric being in the sorry

00:31:14.931 --> 00:31:16.952
that being in the you know

00:31:17.232 --> 00:31:18.594
big in the RPC space with

00:31:18.634 --> 00:31:19.775
distributed RPC I think

00:31:21.415 --> 00:31:23.416
they he works with teams

00:31:23.436 --> 00:31:24.678
that tend to find their

00:31:24.817 --> 00:31:26.699
issues when the users come

00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:28.859
right and then it's like a

00:31:28.901 --> 00:31:31.082
scramble to to try and fix

00:31:31.142 --> 00:31:33.222
those things so I imagine

00:31:33.523 --> 00:31:34.203
oh yeah when the traffic

00:31:34.243 --> 00:31:35.704
goes up a hundred percent you mean yeah

00:31:35.825 --> 00:31:36.005
Yeah,

00:31:36.065 --> 00:31:37.346
like when the traffic hundred X is

00:31:37.425 --> 00:31:38.306
overnight and all of a

00:31:38.385 --> 00:31:40.367
sudden the five queries

00:31:40.407 --> 00:31:41.887
that you are making to like

00:31:41.928 --> 00:31:43.648
display a price become a problem.

00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:45.349
Yeah, right.

00:31:45.369 --> 00:31:46.411
We're calling the RPC twenty

00:31:46.451 --> 00:31:48.832
five times for every every

00:31:48.892 --> 00:31:50.053
page load has four hundred

00:31:50.073 --> 00:31:51.413
and fifty RPC calls.

00:31:52.413 --> 00:31:53.194
Better work on that.

00:31:53.454 --> 00:31:57.356
Yeah, but that's also I mean,

00:31:57.416 --> 00:31:58.877
obviously you're right for starters,

00:31:58.897 --> 00:32:00.759
but that's also a it's a

00:32:00.798 --> 00:32:01.638
software engineering

00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.540
problem with especially maybe in

00:32:06.207 --> 00:32:08.769
ecosystems with an SDK it's

00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:10.211
obviously it's a huge

00:32:10.250 --> 00:32:11.673
problem in any ecosystem

00:32:11.712 --> 00:32:13.275
where you don't have so

00:32:13.515 --> 00:32:14.576
what you're saying is the

00:32:14.695 --> 00:32:16.238
barrier to entry may be

00:32:17.018 --> 00:32:19.201
quite low in the

00:32:19.221 --> 00:32:20.741
development cycle and that

00:32:21.529 --> 00:32:22.131
Potentially,

00:32:22.191 --> 00:32:23.593
there's not best practices

00:32:23.692 --> 00:32:25.414
coming out of it.

00:32:25.654 --> 00:32:26.655
It's simply this, right?

00:32:26.736 --> 00:32:29.219
If you go and work for a

00:32:29.278 --> 00:32:32.502
chain of fucking off-licenses, right,

00:32:33.403 --> 00:32:34.184
as an engineer,

00:32:34.385 --> 00:32:35.326
they've got a lot of money

00:32:35.346 --> 00:32:35.968
because they're selling a

00:32:35.988 --> 00:32:37.249
lot of booze and fags, right?

00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:40.032
They're selling a shitload of tinnies.

00:32:40.472 --> 00:32:40.894
And so...

00:32:42.403 --> 00:32:44.346
you yeah you wow you just

00:32:44.365 --> 00:32:45.547
threw down a lot of british

00:32:45.707 --> 00:32:47.429
terminology yeah I I have

00:32:47.509 --> 00:32:48.871
no idea like we're closely

00:32:48.891 --> 00:32:49.971
aligned with your lingo and

00:32:50.031 --> 00:32:51.373
I go that's why I threw in

00:32:51.413 --> 00:32:52.614
tinnies I threw in tinnies

00:32:52.653 --> 00:32:53.734
at the end to catch you up

00:32:53.795 --> 00:32:54.675
no that's why I said

00:32:54.695 --> 00:32:57.038
tinnies is that like a

00:32:57.078 --> 00:32:59.181
toonie from canada or what

00:32:59.201 --> 00:33:00.442
uh it's just kind of beer

00:33:00.501 --> 00:33:04.205
and cannibalia oh okay

00:33:06.144 --> 00:33:08.065
Booze and facts.

00:33:08.865 --> 00:33:12.465
Beer and cigarettes.

00:33:12.826 --> 00:33:15.366
It's like every corner shop.

00:33:15.666 --> 00:33:16.767
It's what their bread and butter is.

00:33:16.866 --> 00:33:17.807
It's booze and facts.

00:33:18.768 --> 00:33:19.887
But if you work for a chain

00:33:19.948 --> 00:33:22.229
of corner shops, as an engineer,

00:33:22.249 --> 00:33:23.409
they're going to be like, oh, well,

00:33:23.890 --> 00:33:24.950
if we have some kind of

00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:25.990
delivery service or

00:33:26.029 --> 00:33:26.951
something where it's just like,

00:33:26.971 --> 00:33:29.750
we'll deliver in like a

00:33:29.810 --> 00:33:33.153
half mile from our shop, build this thing,

00:33:33.633 --> 00:33:34.452
optimize it.

00:33:35.451 --> 00:33:36.071
they're going to give you a

00:33:36.132 --> 00:33:37.172
budget and the budget is

00:33:37.211 --> 00:33:39.913
going to be like always in a big,

00:33:40.472 --> 00:33:41.253
in any company, right.

00:33:41.273 --> 00:33:42.513
It will be less than you actually need.

00:33:42.534 --> 00:33:42.773
Right.

00:33:42.814 --> 00:33:43.953
But it will be some amount

00:33:43.993 --> 00:33:45.255
of money and it will be

00:33:45.914 --> 00:33:47.035
quarterly and it will be

00:33:47.095 --> 00:33:48.194
regular and you can bank on

00:33:48.275 --> 00:33:49.135
it and you can start to

00:33:49.175 --> 00:33:50.016
come up with a plan and

00:33:50.056 --> 00:33:52.135
then build it and optimize from there.

00:33:52.236 --> 00:33:52.576
And like,

00:33:52.997 --> 00:33:53.896
I guess what I'm saying is it's

00:33:54.217 --> 00:33:55.757
much that the technology is new.

00:33:56.077 --> 00:33:57.018
You have very little time to

00:33:57.077 --> 00:33:57.778
ramp up with it.

00:33:58.549 --> 00:34:00.030
There are a lot of people

00:34:00.050 --> 00:34:01.332
who don't understand some

00:34:01.352 --> 00:34:02.093
of the trade-offs of the

00:34:02.133 --> 00:34:04.134
technology on top of those two problems,

00:34:04.154 --> 00:34:05.276
which is that you're trying to build,

00:34:05.675 --> 00:34:06.616
run before you can walk.

00:34:07.277 --> 00:34:07.857
You need to beat your

00:34:07.877 --> 00:34:08.958
competitors and everything

00:34:08.998 --> 00:34:10.699
in the space is going super, super fast.

00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:11.900
So it's got typey typey faster,

00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:12.702
typey typey faster.

00:34:13.402 --> 00:34:14.443
And then you also have like

00:34:14.483 --> 00:34:15.623
this inherent problem of,

00:34:16.105 --> 00:34:16.605
I think a lot of the

00:34:16.625 --> 00:34:17.786
builders are bootstrapping

00:34:18.106 --> 00:34:18.967
the ones who are small,

00:34:19.007 --> 00:34:19.708
especially for smart

00:34:19.748 --> 00:34:20.628
contract level stuff.

00:34:21.309 --> 00:34:22.409
And I think that problem

00:34:22.548 --> 00:34:24.369
goes over to Cosmos chains

00:34:24.409 --> 00:34:26.130
because the barrier to entry is lower.

00:34:26.411 --> 00:34:27.510
There's a lot of bootstrapping,

00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:28.751
which means the money's running out.

00:34:29.592 --> 00:34:30.512
And then the final problem

00:34:30.612 --> 00:34:32.853
is that once you get there,

00:34:33.853 --> 00:34:35.373
the economic sustainability

00:34:35.413 --> 00:34:36.313
of your project is quite

00:34:36.373 --> 00:34:37.393
often out of your hands.

00:34:37.434 --> 00:34:38.373
And so often I think

00:34:38.733 --> 00:34:40.034
builders have a lot of

00:34:40.074 --> 00:34:40.934
other problems on their

00:34:40.954 --> 00:34:43.135
plate which don't extend to

00:34:43.195 --> 00:34:44.235
query optimization.

00:34:44.536 --> 00:34:45.275
Or it might be something

00:34:45.315 --> 00:34:46.617
that they just figured, oh,

00:34:46.637 --> 00:34:47.416
we'll figure it out.

00:34:49.677 --> 00:34:51.818
And that is a good problem to have, right?

00:34:51.878 --> 00:34:52.538
Extra users.

00:34:52.577 --> 00:34:54.159
You call somebody like SERP and you say,

00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:55.980
hey, got way more users than we thought.

00:34:57.079 --> 00:34:57.659
Bill us.

00:34:57.800 --> 00:34:59.340
We've got some money coming in, right?

00:35:00.221 --> 00:35:01.322
And so I think a lot of

00:35:01.382 --> 00:35:02.161
problems that would maybe

00:35:02.202 --> 00:35:03.722
be a software concern in a

00:35:03.762 --> 00:35:05.903
different industry end up

00:35:06.023 --> 00:35:08.525
becoming an infrastructure concern.

00:35:08.545 --> 00:35:10.686
Because don't build, you know, Yagni,

00:35:10.726 --> 00:35:11.005
right?

00:35:11.826 --> 00:35:12.726
Don't build anything you're

00:35:12.746 --> 00:35:13.427
not going to need.

00:35:13.666 --> 00:35:15.947
And your project, like all startups,

00:35:16.307 --> 00:35:17.387
especially so in crypto,

00:35:17.648 --> 00:35:18.329
is likely to fail.

00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:18.548
So

00:35:20.349 --> 00:35:23.271
Why do you read optimization, right?

00:35:23.331 --> 00:35:23.510
I mean,

00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:25.251
this also falls into the toys

00:35:25.291 --> 00:35:26.592
precede tools kind of thing, right?

00:35:26.612 --> 00:35:28.211
When there's still toys,

00:35:28.911 --> 00:35:30.233
like whenever something fails,

00:35:30.273 --> 00:35:30.913
it's almost fine.

00:35:31.132 --> 00:35:31.873
You're kind of enjoying it.

00:35:31.893 --> 00:35:33.733
You're like, wow, that was catastrophic.

00:35:33.914 --> 00:35:34.634
Can't believe that worked.

00:35:35.114 --> 00:35:36.193
And then as more people come,

00:35:37.253 --> 00:35:38.574
then you have to start...

00:35:38.614 --> 00:35:39.894
You get used that toy time

00:35:39.954 --> 00:35:41.394
to flush things out.

00:35:41.416 --> 00:35:42.036
It's kind of like the...

00:35:43.768 --> 00:35:45.469
the adoption cycle of new

00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:47.769
products where hobbies come in,

00:35:48.409 --> 00:35:49.510
look at the Pebble Watch, right?

00:35:49.811 --> 00:35:51.411
Comes in, bugs everywhere,

00:35:51.791 --> 00:35:52.512
hobbyists love it.

00:35:52.931 --> 00:35:54.472
And then as the hobbyists, you know,

00:35:54.512 --> 00:35:56.753
help to create it into a

00:35:56.833 --> 00:35:58.233
more official product,

00:35:58.594 --> 00:36:01.373
then like early adopters, hobbyists,

00:36:01.815 --> 00:36:03.135
and then it can actually go mainstream,

00:36:03.275 --> 00:36:03.414
right?

00:36:03.474 --> 00:36:04.355
It falls the same cycle as

00:36:04.375 --> 00:36:06.135
the toys to tools idea.

00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:07.978
but the interesting thing

00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.679
here is that I think the

00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:12.041
amount of infrastructure is

00:36:12.101 --> 00:36:13.541
needed is far higher for

00:36:13.561 --> 00:36:14.661
the toys than it is for the

00:36:14.681 --> 00:36:17.822
tools so like the stuff

00:36:17.842 --> 00:36:18.684
that we've gotten caught on

00:36:18.744 --> 00:36:21.083
has been has been you know

00:36:21.244 --> 00:36:23.244
mints or like huge meme

00:36:23.264 --> 00:36:25.286
coin bullshit runs where

00:36:25.346 --> 00:36:26.025
people are just fucking

00:36:26.065 --> 00:36:27.106
running spam bots and all

00:36:27.126 --> 00:36:28.106
that kind of stuff but if

00:36:28.126 --> 00:36:29.947
we actually had an rwa chain that that

00:36:30.347 --> 00:36:31.309
that had, I don't know,

00:36:32.028 --> 00:36:33.389
like some sort of loan

00:36:33.409 --> 00:36:34.990
closure and it had pure

00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:36.311
visibility all the way back.

00:36:36.351 --> 00:36:37.713
And we had, you know,

00:36:37.733 --> 00:36:38.652
a set of investors were

00:36:38.672 --> 00:36:40.434
providing short-term loans on X, Y,

00:36:40.454 --> 00:36:40.954
or Z or something.

00:36:41.255 --> 00:36:42.856
There's very little transactions for that.

00:36:43.036 --> 00:36:44.536
Like it's totally nothing, right?

00:36:44.617 --> 00:36:45.257
It's exactly,

00:36:45.277 --> 00:36:46.759
it's all these fucking crazy things.

00:36:46.798 --> 00:36:49.559
We're building this shit up that has, or,

00:36:49.701 --> 00:36:50.960
or not to pick on Aptos,

00:36:51.001 --> 00:36:52.262
but like the Aptos traffic

00:36:52.282 --> 00:36:53.882
has come from Tamagotchi

00:36:53.922 --> 00:36:55.463
type shit where people are feeding.

00:36:56.945 --> 00:36:57.465
What is that thing?

00:36:58.711 --> 00:37:00.313
like a it wasn't feeding it

00:37:00.333 --> 00:37:01.494
was poking the cat all

00:37:01.514 --> 00:37:04.817
right so so millions of

00:37:04.836 --> 00:37:05.858
people are poking the out

00:37:05.878 --> 00:37:06.597
of this cat right

00:37:06.637 --> 00:37:07.338
everyone's creating a

00:37:07.378 --> 00:37:08.239
transaction like it's a

00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.221
good it's a good test for

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:11.902
that yeah like even that

00:37:11.942 --> 00:37:13.143
cat right there that cat

00:37:13.163 --> 00:37:15.585
needs a poke so um but it's

00:37:15.605 --> 00:37:16.826
a good test but like when

00:37:16.905 --> 00:37:17.927
when you actually get into

00:37:17.967 --> 00:37:19.027
like I mean aptos is

00:37:19.047 --> 00:37:20.389
working to be like the largest

00:37:20.849 --> 00:37:21.429
money mover,

00:37:21.449 --> 00:37:22.690
which I think is a great use case.

00:37:22.710 --> 00:37:24.452
Like let's get all these, like,

00:37:24.632 --> 00:37:25.893
I think that's great, but,

00:37:26.094 --> 00:37:26.894
but people aren't, I mean,

00:37:27.536 --> 00:37:28.155
unless you're doing,

00:37:28.277 --> 00:37:29.217
unless you're taking over

00:37:29.338 --> 00:37:30.217
like a credit transaction

00:37:30.237 --> 00:37:31.780
where you're actually doing like POS,

00:37:32.481 --> 00:37:33.021
you're not going to see

00:37:33.041 --> 00:37:33.882
that amount of traffic for

00:37:33.902 --> 00:37:34.543
those types of things.

00:37:34.563 --> 00:37:35.724
Like it's really low.

00:37:36.184 --> 00:37:39.286
Or unless you can do wholesale, right.

00:37:39.427 --> 00:37:40.688
And, and wholesale is,

00:37:41.248 --> 00:37:42.170
like, let's be real,

00:37:42.269 --> 00:37:43.570
is not going to happen on

00:37:43.650 --> 00:37:44.351
anything other than a

00:37:44.472 --> 00:37:46.693
consortium blockchain with

00:37:47.054 --> 00:37:48.876
super fucking known quantities,

00:37:48.956 --> 00:37:51.677
with super fucking known operations,

00:37:51.717 --> 00:37:52.980
and yada, yada, yada.

00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.842
And it's a great use case, right?

00:37:55.902 --> 00:37:58.585
But it comes down to, in that case,

00:37:58.605 --> 00:37:59.565
the wholesale case,

00:38:00.206 --> 00:38:02.427
the technology is hard.

00:38:02.507 --> 00:38:03.608
The technology is not the problem.

00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:05.751
The problem is business development.

00:38:06.414 --> 00:38:06.574
Right.

00:38:06.594 --> 00:38:07.414
It's meeting all those

00:38:07.454 --> 00:38:09.934
people that can make that product work,

00:38:10.514 --> 00:38:11.635
who probably will work at

00:38:11.675 --> 00:38:13.155
big financial institutions

00:38:13.375 --> 00:38:15.416
and playing a lot of golf with them.

00:38:15.896 --> 00:38:16.096
Right.

00:38:16.115 --> 00:38:16.295
Yeah.

00:38:16.335 --> 00:38:18.356
Well, I mean, I was talking to a strange,

00:38:18.697 --> 00:38:19.757
strange love team a couple of weeks ago.

00:38:19.777 --> 00:38:20.556
We were talking about some of this,

00:38:20.577 --> 00:38:21.896
but like when those

00:38:21.936 --> 00:38:23.277
financial institutions look

00:38:23.297 --> 00:38:24.077
to be able to build that,

00:38:24.737 --> 00:38:25.217
I don't know if they're

00:38:25.237 --> 00:38:26.197
using any of these tools.

00:38:27.097 --> 00:38:30.119
Like those, those tools will be bespoke.

00:38:32.054 --> 00:38:32.195
I mean,

00:38:32.215 --> 00:38:35.536
they can just grab a bunch of PhD

00:38:35.577 --> 00:38:36.797
students or hire a bunch of

00:38:36.818 --> 00:38:38.338
companies or acquihire the

00:38:38.358 --> 00:38:39.438
people they need or whatever.

00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:42.900
Yeah.

00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:43.061
I mean,

00:38:43.101 --> 00:38:44.081
every time you interact with those

00:38:44.101 --> 00:38:44.862
sorts of people, like,

00:38:45.302 --> 00:38:45.943
and I'm not saying this

00:38:46.322 --> 00:38:48.164
because they're dicks necessarily,

00:38:48.224 --> 00:38:48.784
but like,

00:38:49.945 --> 00:38:52.005
it's just the case that when you say, oh,

00:38:52.085 --> 00:38:53.626
I work on the technology side,

00:38:54.306 --> 00:38:55.507
they have this like, oh, cool.

00:38:55.568 --> 00:38:56.527
You know,

00:38:56.568 --> 00:38:58.048
when you meet somebody in a

00:38:58.108 --> 00:39:00.389
business or a networking context and you,

00:39:00.510 --> 00:39:01.251
and they just

00:39:02.648 --> 00:39:04.190
you have no utility to them

00:39:04.349 --> 00:39:05.411
because they realize that

00:39:05.431 --> 00:39:06.552
if they need somebody like you,

00:39:07.413 --> 00:39:08.954
they can buy you, right?

00:39:09.233 --> 00:39:10.436
Their organization has so much money,

00:39:10.476 --> 00:39:11.436
they can find you or

00:39:11.476 --> 00:39:13.559
somebody like you and buy you, which is,

00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.641
you know,

00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:17.342
as much stuff as there is going

00:39:17.402 --> 00:39:18.663
on in the space that we work in,

00:39:19.588 --> 00:39:19.788
You know,

00:39:19.827 --> 00:39:21.068
I guess it's that sobering

00:39:21.088 --> 00:39:22.208
reminder of how much

00:39:22.289 --> 00:39:24.050
comically bigger TradFi is.

00:39:24.690 --> 00:39:26.570
It's so like, is it weird?

00:39:26.590 --> 00:39:27.791
We're like a rounding error

00:39:27.971 --> 00:39:28.871
or they're like,

00:39:29.311 --> 00:39:30.431
I always tell the story of like,

00:39:30.452 --> 00:39:31.632
I was talking to some guys and they were,

00:39:31.652 --> 00:39:32.253
they were talking about

00:39:32.612 --> 00:39:33.873
partnerships they had and they were like,

00:39:34.273 --> 00:39:34.414
yeah,

00:39:34.454 --> 00:39:35.673
these guys keep wanting us to run

00:39:35.713 --> 00:39:36.934
validates on these networks.

00:39:36.954 --> 00:39:37.934
They list off some networks.

00:39:37.954 --> 00:39:38.914
And I was thinking, fuck, that's,

00:39:39.074 --> 00:39:39.996
that's actually quite a lot of money.

00:39:40.016 --> 00:39:40.815
They're leaving on the table

00:39:40.835 --> 00:39:41.436
with a foundation

00:39:41.476 --> 00:39:43.016
delegation and you know,

00:39:44.385 --> 00:39:44.945
we were probably talking

00:39:44.985 --> 00:39:45.565
millions of dollars they

00:39:45.585 --> 00:39:46.246
were leaving on the table

00:39:46.266 --> 00:39:47.487
because for them, it was like,

00:39:47.547 --> 00:39:48.427
it's not a core business.

00:39:49.327 --> 00:39:51.347
Why would we hire a team to

00:39:51.387 --> 00:39:52.788
go off this thing that

00:39:52.827 --> 00:39:57.668
might get regulated in two years?

00:39:58.349 --> 00:39:59.148
Why bother?

00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:00.668
It's like for a few minutes,

00:40:00.688 --> 00:40:02.849
for a measly couple of mil, you're like,

00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:04.269
you get out of bed for it.

00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:07.329
Regulatory risk, brand risk,

00:40:07.690 --> 00:40:09.931
like distracting your core

00:40:09.971 --> 00:40:11.771
business people with random shit.

00:40:12.942 --> 00:40:13.842
but back to that's for

00:40:13.922 --> 00:40:15.202
eric's point right the the

00:40:15.523 --> 00:40:16.905
the toys pc tools thing

00:40:16.945 --> 00:40:17.985
like I kind of wonder if

00:40:18.005 --> 00:40:20.047
that's like is that where

00:40:20.086 --> 00:40:22.168
we are as a whole industry

00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:23.070
I mean I think it kind of

00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:23.969
is and that's certainly the

00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:24.951
impression I get whenever I

00:40:24.971 --> 00:40:25.992
talk to anybody who works

00:40:26.032 --> 00:40:27.413
in like a serious industry

00:40:29.134 --> 00:40:29.994
they certainly look at me

00:40:30.034 --> 00:40:31.036
like I'm a fucking like

00:40:31.056 --> 00:40:31.976
I've got snot running down

00:40:32.016 --> 00:40:32.817
my nose and I'm playing

00:40:32.836 --> 00:40:33.938
with toy trains you know

00:40:34.257 --> 00:40:35.860
they're like oh crypto

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:37.440
Okay.

00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:38.481
Blockchain, is it?

00:40:39.742 --> 00:40:40.322
Look at you,

00:40:40.362 --> 00:40:41.643
just playing with your blockchain.

00:40:42.202 --> 00:40:42.963
Aww.

00:40:43.324 --> 00:40:44.744
And you can say a sentence, too.

00:40:44.824 --> 00:40:44.905
God.

00:40:44.925 --> 00:40:45.945
Got a meme coin.

00:40:46.286 --> 00:40:48.666
Don't they grow up so fast?

00:40:48.706 --> 00:40:49.568
Got a meme coin.

00:40:50.728 --> 00:40:52.530
Yeah.

00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:53.911
It is changing.

00:40:53.951 --> 00:40:55.692
Like, it is starting to tip a little bit,

00:40:55.711 --> 00:40:55.911
though.

00:40:57.358 --> 00:40:59.719
I see it from the RWA side.

00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:01.240
I see it with the amount of

00:41:03.483 --> 00:41:04.684
traditional finance

00:41:04.744 --> 00:41:05.925
involvement in things.

00:41:06.766 --> 00:41:09.168
You're starting to see RFPs

00:41:09.188 --> 00:41:10.509
show up for stable coins in

00:41:10.588 --> 00:41:12.269
certain situations in certain countries.

00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:13.170
You're starting to see

00:41:14.331 --> 00:41:15.833
organizations form around

00:41:15.893 --> 00:41:17.315
regulatory bodies only.

00:41:18.054 --> 00:41:18.795
like it's start you're

00:41:18.815 --> 00:41:19.335
starting to see a little

00:41:19.356 --> 00:41:20.436
bit of that tip right like

00:41:20.556 --> 00:41:21.876
some things are like it's

00:41:21.896 --> 00:41:24.057
starting to it's certain

00:41:24.677 --> 00:41:25.418
whether whether or not any

00:41:25.438 --> 00:41:26.159
of these tools have been

00:41:26.179 --> 00:41:26.818
built for the last ten

00:41:26.858 --> 00:41:28.260
years turn into anything

00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.400
related to any of I just

00:41:29.420 --> 00:41:30.880
said there's a separate

00:41:30.981 --> 00:41:32.380
issue like like I said

00:41:32.420 --> 00:41:33.322
before like it doesn't mean

00:41:33.362 --> 00:41:35.583
that like just because the

00:41:35.603 --> 00:41:36.842
technology gets to here

00:41:36.902 --> 00:41:37.523
doesn't mean any of the

00:41:37.543 --> 00:41:38.603
things that we did up to

00:41:38.623 --> 00:41:39.965
this point mean anything

00:41:41.317 --> 00:41:42.976
But I do think that the

00:41:43.077 --> 00:41:44.878
technology is to a point

00:41:44.938 --> 00:41:46.617
where it's starting to attract the right,

00:41:46.757 --> 00:41:47.358
not the right,

00:41:47.797 --> 00:41:48.858
a different set of

00:41:49.478 --> 00:41:50.978
organizations that might

00:41:51.498 --> 00:41:52.918
accelerate things that are

00:41:53.059 --> 00:41:53.780
currently occurring.

00:41:54.619 --> 00:41:56.559
And that maybe that's a rising ship,

00:41:57.539 --> 00:41:58.780
a rising tide type situation,

00:41:58.820 --> 00:42:00.001
meaning like that brings

00:42:00.021 --> 00:42:00.740
validity to this.

00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.481
And so therefore we have

00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:03.521
these other types of things.

00:42:03.541 --> 00:42:04.181
And now everybody gets

00:42:04.222 --> 00:42:04.961
involved and they realize

00:42:04.981 --> 00:42:06.601
that they can trade these

00:42:06.641 --> 00:42:08.523
types of securities with their bank,

00:42:08.563 --> 00:42:09.402
or they can also do it

00:42:10.362 --> 00:42:11.362
somewhere else right and

00:42:11.382 --> 00:42:12.003
that somewhere else has

00:42:12.043 --> 00:42:13.085
been around for longer so

00:42:13.125 --> 00:42:14.346
therefore it brings

00:42:14.367 --> 00:42:15.387
validity to a certain

00:42:15.447 --> 00:42:16.389
situation or something but

00:42:16.469 --> 00:42:17.809
like again that's just a

00:42:17.849 --> 00:42:19.632
guess but like I I am

00:42:19.672 --> 00:42:21.293
seeing like it takes

00:42:21.313 --> 00:42:22.615
forever but it is starting

00:42:22.635 --> 00:42:27.661
to happen um so two uh

00:42:29.849 --> 00:42:30.510
Phrase point.

00:42:32.590 --> 00:42:36.213
I personally have been seeing some, like,

00:42:36.434 --> 00:42:38.434
not Tradfire, but definitely, like,

00:42:38.494 --> 00:42:42.297
Webtoon and companies from out of...

00:42:43.367 --> 00:42:44.969
like different industries

00:42:45.068 --> 00:42:48.829
starting to enter into, um, validating.

00:42:48.869 --> 00:42:49.690
And I don't think it's

00:42:49.750 --> 00:42:52.030
necessarily to make income.

00:42:52.090 --> 00:42:53.251
I think it is to have a

00:42:53.311 --> 00:42:56.273
presence in web three for,

00:42:56.293 --> 00:42:59.793
for some brands like, um, you know,

00:42:59.813 --> 00:43:01.315
taking some random examples

00:43:01.775 --> 00:43:06.056
is maybe injective, which have onboarded,

00:43:06.376 --> 00:43:10.318
um, douche telecom and NTT digital.

00:43:10.597 --> 00:43:12.039
So could you still repeat that one?

00:43:14.309 --> 00:43:15.670
Deutsche Telekom.

00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:17.070
That was good.

00:43:17.311 --> 00:43:20.373
That was better the second time.

00:43:20.414 --> 00:43:20.534
Sorry,

00:43:20.594 --> 00:43:22.014
I sounded a bit lazy the first time.

00:43:22.034 --> 00:43:23.836
No, you fixed it.

00:43:26.539 --> 00:43:28.721
I think NTT Digital is like

00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:31.523
an infrastructure company elsewhere.

00:43:31.623 --> 00:43:32.784
It's not just these guys.

00:43:32.804 --> 00:43:33.003
Sorry?

00:43:33.023 --> 00:43:38.548
Did NTT do the timing for

00:43:38.588 --> 00:43:39.349
the Tour de France?

00:43:39.369 --> 00:43:39.469
Yes.

00:43:41.293 --> 00:43:42.596
This might be a different entity.

00:43:42.655 --> 00:43:43.297
I think the entity,

00:43:44.378 --> 00:43:46.961
they're like a Japanese, uh, bank,

00:43:47.021 --> 00:43:48.043
I think.

00:43:48.344 --> 00:43:48.384
Um,

00:43:50.019 --> 00:43:50.900
Yeah, okay, that makes a lot more sense.

00:43:51.001 --> 00:43:52.983
Yeah, I think that's, yeah.

00:43:53.762 --> 00:43:54.623
Well, they do a bunch of stuff.

00:43:54.643 --> 00:43:56.005
They're like a global services company,

00:43:56.045 --> 00:43:57.766
but yeah, I think, sorry, Jerome,

00:43:57.786 --> 00:43:58.266
I interrupted you,

00:43:58.286 --> 00:43:59.068
but I think that you're right.

00:43:59.088 --> 00:44:00.148
Those two organizations in

00:44:00.188 --> 00:44:02.090
particular and Injectives

00:44:02.130 --> 00:44:03.331
work there and in bringing them on.

00:44:03.550 --> 00:44:04.592
I think Deutsche Telekom is

00:44:04.711 --> 00:44:05.913
a great example of a team

00:44:05.932 --> 00:44:08.596
that is entering the space.

00:44:08.715 --> 00:44:09.637
They're doing it credibly.

00:44:10.277 --> 00:44:11.898
All the validator operations are in-house.

00:44:12.099 --> 00:44:12.719
They've been doing it for

00:44:12.739 --> 00:44:13.619
years and years and years.

00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:14.860
I think, candidly,

00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:15.902
we have Chainlink to thank

00:44:16.041 --> 00:44:17.123
for bringing them on board

00:44:17.143 --> 00:44:17.983
in the first place because

00:44:18.543 --> 00:44:18.764
You know,

00:44:18.784 --> 00:44:20.025
I think they're running their

00:44:20.065 --> 00:44:21.628
chain like node is that's

00:44:21.648 --> 00:44:22.889
the first kick of the can for them.

00:44:22.909 --> 00:44:23.871
And now they validate for.

00:44:25.572 --> 00:44:26.574
I don't know how many

00:44:26.594 --> 00:44:27.855
blockchains is I have to ask.

00:44:27.875 --> 00:44:29.317
Maybe it's a dozen or something like that.

00:44:29.476 --> 00:44:29.938
And they've got.

00:44:30.217 --> 00:44:30.878
They were like the first

00:44:30.978 --> 00:44:32.181
round of chain like operators, right?

00:44:32.201 --> 00:44:33.202
Weren't they like really early?

00:44:34.177 --> 00:44:34.838
They were pretty early.

00:44:35.018 --> 00:44:35.179
Yeah.

00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:36.159
I don't remember exactly

00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:37.780
when it was they entered, but I mean,

00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:38.862
I think they're a great

00:44:38.922 --> 00:44:40.041
organization that is doing

00:44:40.061 --> 00:44:41.202
it in a very credible way.

00:44:41.262 --> 00:44:41.423
Right.

00:44:41.503 --> 00:44:44.806
They've had the support that

00:44:44.826 --> 00:44:45.666
they had for that.

00:44:45.887 --> 00:44:47.648
That team initially was like

00:44:47.668 --> 00:44:48.568
an innovation thing.

00:44:48.648 --> 00:44:50.429
And now it's a it's a whole business unit.

00:44:50.690 --> 00:44:50.811
Right.

00:44:51.590 --> 00:44:54.092
Um, and I think you look at teams like, um,

00:44:54.112 --> 00:44:57.255
there's Brad Feinstein over at AWS.

00:44:58.016 --> 00:44:58.175
Um,

00:44:58.715 --> 00:45:00.137
they operate validators for a number of

00:45:00.197 --> 00:45:00.697
networks.

00:45:00.838 --> 00:45:01.998
They have a whole team of,

00:45:02.358 --> 00:45:04.039
of engineers that, uh,

00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:05.940
like have built open source

00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:07.061
kind of frameworks for

00:45:07.121 --> 00:45:08.141
teams to come in and like

00:45:08.663 --> 00:45:09.704
stand up quick launch

00:45:09.744 --> 00:45:11.264
things for chain link nodes.

00:45:11.344 --> 00:45:14.106
Or I worked with their team to, uh, create,

00:45:14.646 --> 00:45:15.927
uh, as a worker node launch pad,

00:45:15.947 --> 00:45:17.329
which is basically this ML

00:45:17.969 --> 00:45:19.190
model that's instantiated

00:45:19.230 --> 00:45:20.251
on the Alora network.

00:45:20.990 --> 00:45:23.172
um so you can go in and

00:45:23.213 --> 00:45:24.893
launch one on the alora

00:45:24.934 --> 00:45:26.496
network just like that

00:45:26.556 --> 00:45:27.356
basically using the

00:45:27.396 --> 00:45:27.956
framework that they

00:45:27.996 --> 00:45:29.097
developed but no I think

00:45:29.117 --> 00:45:30.898
you're absolutely right um

00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:33.340
that there's these teams

00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:34.342
that are entering the space

00:45:34.822 --> 00:45:35.523
and there's teams that are

00:45:35.543 --> 00:45:36.963
doing this this doing god's

00:45:37.003 --> 00:45:39.885
work in onboarding these

00:45:39.905 --> 00:45:41.387
kind of institutions and

00:45:41.427 --> 00:45:42.867
enterprises and again in

00:45:42.909 --> 00:45:44.690
this very credible way so

00:45:46.387 --> 00:45:48.168
So I think, um, well to that,

00:45:48.829 --> 00:45:50.510
to my own point, uh,

00:45:50.550 --> 00:45:54.713
with people diversifying, um, so that's,

00:45:54.954 --> 00:45:55.193
I guess,

00:45:55.233 --> 00:45:57.034
an entry point into Zellick's

00:45:57.074 --> 00:45:59.356
business model with validating.

00:45:59.476 --> 00:46:03.358
So they aren't necessarily, um, you know,

00:46:03.378 --> 00:46:05.099
you guys aren't running around chasing,

00:46:05.659 --> 00:46:06.260
um,

00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:08.541
that type of business as your core

00:46:08.581 --> 00:46:09.043
business.

00:46:09.083 --> 00:46:12.445
You are first and foremost, a security, um,

00:46:12.505 --> 00:46:14.226
company and a security auditing company.

00:46:14.306 --> 00:46:15.726
However, um,

00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:19.262
for like payment for service

00:46:19.362 --> 00:46:22.481
and being in those ecosystems,

00:46:23.782 --> 00:46:26.143
you guys do like a credit

00:46:26.163 --> 00:46:28.123
system for your validators.

00:46:28.164 --> 00:46:29.704
So some foundations might

00:46:29.744 --> 00:46:32.085
choose to onboard you guys

00:46:32.105 --> 00:46:34.164
as a validator and make it delegation.

00:46:34.284 --> 00:46:36.286
And then you guys in return

00:46:36.945 --> 00:46:38.226
will commit a certain

00:46:38.246 --> 00:46:39.987
amount of the revenue from

00:46:40.027 --> 00:46:42.668
that towards like security

00:46:42.768 --> 00:46:44.168
auditing credits, for example.

00:46:44.969 --> 00:46:46.010
Yeah, that's exactly right, man.

00:46:47.871 --> 00:46:48.110
You know,

00:46:48.610 --> 00:46:50.012
the team at Zelleck brought me on

00:46:50.092 --> 00:46:51.873
to help lead BD for their

00:46:51.932 --> 00:46:53.414
audit side and then also to

00:46:53.494 --> 00:46:55.416
lead BD for their validator

00:46:55.456 --> 00:46:56.516
operations unit, right?

00:46:57.677 --> 00:46:58.317
You know, like I said,

00:46:58.657 --> 00:46:59.777
I've got some experience there.

00:46:59.797 --> 00:47:00.878
That's what I've done over

00:47:00.898 --> 00:47:01.880
the last number of years,

00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:03.400
having worked at Linkpool

00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:04.940
and then onboarding the

00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:06.222
validator cohort for Alora.

00:47:06.822 --> 00:47:07.742
I've kind of worked both

00:47:07.782 --> 00:47:09.103
sides of the sword in that way.

00:47:10.824 --> 00:47:12.405
You know, Zellick, right?

00:47:12.425 --> 00:47:14.686
Our mission is pretty laser focused,

00:47:14.726 --> 00:47:14.867
right?

00:47:14.887 --> 00:47:15.887
We want to find all the bugs

00:47:15.927 --> 00:47:16.829
and save all the money.

00:47:18.670 --> 00:47:20.130
Our auditor cohort really

00:47:20.170 --> 00:47:21.411
comes from the competitive

00:47:21.530 --> 00:47:23.411
hacking world of CTFs, right?

00:47:23.793 --> 00:47:24.373
Which is like the

00:47:24.432 --> 00:47:25.634
competitive hacking or info

00:47:25.693 --> 00:47:27.394
security Olympics, right?

00:47:27.775 --> 00:47:29.295
Our two co-founders founded the

00:47:31.362 --> 00:47:32.684
Team that won number one in

00:47:32.704 --> 00:47:33.744
the world the last three of

00:47:33.764 --> 00:47:35.224
the four years, Perfect Blue,

00:47:35.925 --> 00:47:36.706
Jazzy and Luna.

00:47:37.306 --> 00:47:38.206
They ran that and they

00:47:38.246 --> 00:47:39.106
continue to run that and

00:47:39.146 --> 00:47:40.668
continue to support the CTF world.

00:47:40.708 --> 00:47:43.349
Our kind of thesis there is

00:47:43.409 --> 00:47:45.869
that those problems in the

00:47:45.909 --> 00:47:46.990
CTF world and in the

00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:48.170
traditional information

00:47:48.210 --> 00:47:48.851
security and in the

00:47:48.891 --> 00:47:49.952
competitive hacking world,

00:47:50.393 --> 00:47:51.293
they're big problems,

00:47:51.472 --> 00:47:52.534
they're complex problems.

00:47:53.313 --> 00:47:54.755
They're hard, right?

00:47:54.835 --> 00:47:56.576
You've got to be really an

00:47:56.635 --> 00:47:58.556
incredible mind and an

00:47:58.596 --> 00:47:59.976
incredible developer and an

00:47:59.996 --> 00:48:01.478
incredible hacker to be

00:48:01.538 --> 00:48:03.097
able to go in and solve

00:48:03.117 --> 00:48:04.199
those problems in the first place,

00:48:04.259 --> 00:48:05.900
let alone win those competitions.

00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:08.221
The core thesis really is

00:48:08.260 --> 00:48:10.242
that that skill set

00:48:11.121 --> 00:48:11.880
bringing those people in

00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:13.561
from that world is like

00:48:13.581 --> 00:48:15.262
bringing big fish into a small pond,

00:48:15.702 --> 00:48:15.963
right?

00:48:16.963 --> 00:48:18.063
And it really seems to have

00:48:18.103 --> 00:48:18.945
played out over the years.

00:48:20.264 --> 00:48:21.925
Our validator operations businesses,

00:48:22.045 --> 00:48:22.565
like you say,

00:48:23.166 --> 00:48:24.067
it's really intended to

00:48:24.146 --> 00:48:26.248
support our auditing

00:48:26.288 --> 00:48:27.889
business from a perspective

00:48:27.929 --> 00:48:28.728
really of deepening the

00:48:28.768 --> 00:48:30.190
relationships with these foundations.

00:48:30.909 --> 00:48:32.391
Like I said earlier, right?

00:48:33.331 --> 00:48:35.255
while we do a number of things,

00:48:36.637 --> 00:48:38.079
while we do security audits

00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.284
for smart contracts, you know,

00:48:40.324 --> 00:48:41.465
for Web two stuff,

00:48:41.746 --> 00:48:43.309
we've worked with teams like Polymarket,

00:48:43.349 --> 00:48:44.472
et cetera, on those angles.

00:48:46.686 --> 00:48:48.367
We really like to do, and I think what our,

00:48:48.487 --> 00:48:51.168
our, our kind of specialization is,

00:48:51.650 --> 00:48:52.769
is in the ability to ramp

00:48:52.849 --> 00:48:54.791
up and work very closely

00:48:54.811 --> 00:48:55.672
with these L ones,

00:48:56.152 --> 00:48:56.791
whether they're building

00:48:56.811 --> 00:48:59.434
kind of a novel system, a novel alt VM.

00:49:00.134 --> 00:49:00.954
Uh,

00:49:00.974 --> 00:49:01.934
we work really closely with these

00:49:01.954 --> 00:49:03.094
foundations over the years,

00:49:03.114 --> 00:49:04.755
like from pre-launch all

00:49:04.775 --> 00:49:06.956
the way through many, many cycles later,

00:49:07.657 --> 00:49:09.898
uh, in operating a validator, a.

00:49:11.657 --> 00:49:13.559
It's good when shit goes

00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:14.599
pear-shaped and you pick up

00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.360
the red phone to be able to

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:17.639
call somebody on the other

00:49:17.739 --> 00:49:20.101
end that has worked with

00:49:20.121 --> 00:49:21.900
your core node software for

00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:22.440
months and months and

00:49:22.481 --> 00:49:23.621
months and has audited it.

00:49:24.242 --> 00:49:25.121
Certainly to be able to pick

00:49:25.161 --> 00:49:26.083
up the phone and call and

00:49:26.123 --> 00:49:29.963
have you guys answer when

00:49:29.983 --> 00:49:31.023
the red lights are flashing

00:49:31.063 --> 00:49:31.985
and you break the glass,

00:49:32.664 --> 00:49:33.224
to have teams like

00:49:33.244 --> 00:49:35.646
yourselves that have the expertise.

00:49:35.686 --> 00:49:36.766
That was part of my core

00:49:36.786 --> 00:49:38.626
thesis at Allura is like, look,

00:49:38.706 --> 00:49:39.527
I want these guys that

00:49:40.077 --> 00:49:41.237
They do this stuff for a living.

00:49:41.277 --> 00:49:42.639
They eat, sleep, and breathe it.

00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:45.601
And when I hit pager duty,

00:49:45.701 --> 00:49:49.164
what I want is the Erics of

00:49:49.204 --> 00:49:50.144
the world to roll out of

00:49:50.164 --> 00:49:50.905
bed with a cigarette in

00:49:50.925 --> 00:49:51.885
their mouth and go, okay,

00:49:51.945 --> 00:49:52.646
let's figure it out.

00:49:53.588 --> 00:49:55.628
Don't start smoking, though.

00:49:55.728 --> 00:49:57.650
It's just weed, dude.

00:49:57.710 --> 00:49:58.090
Okay, cool.

00:49:58.692 --> 00:49:59.512
No problem, then.

00:50:01.193 --> 00:50:02.333
I don't think that's legal

00:50:02.434 --> 00:50:03.554
in where you are.

00:50:04.215 --> 00:50:05.197
Are you breaking the law?

00:50:06.067 --> 00:50:06.847
I mean, next to crypto?

00:50:06.867 --> 00:50:08.128
Yeah, come on.

00:50:08.168 --> 00:50:09.289
That's nothing.

00:50:09.829 --> 00:50:12.230
That's nothing.

00:50:12.250 --> 00:50:13.811
But yeah, with the model for us,

00:50:13.851 --> 00:50:14.831
for validators, like you said,

00:50:14.871 --> 00:50:15.771
is to work really closely

00:50:15.791 --> 00:50:17.052
with these teams, these foundations.

00:50:17.492 --> 00:50:18.452
They delegate to us.

00:50:19.213 --> 00:50:20.733
And then essentially they

00:50:21.253 --> 00:50:22.574
earn back a share of the

00:50:22.614 --> 00:50:24.255
rewards that we earn from

00:50:24.295 --> 00:50:25.996
their delegation as audit credits.

00:50:26.476 --> 00:50:28.518
And that's good for foundations.

00:50:28.597 --> 00:50:29.617
It's good for LSTs.

00:50:29.637 --> 00:50:30.338
It's good for any of these

00:50:30.378 --> 00:50:31.278
protocols that have like a

00:50:31.338 --> 00:50:32.679
big layer one token bag or

00:50:32.699 --> 00:50:34.081
a token that they can delegate to us.

00:50:35.902 --> 00:50:37.342
um you know vcs work with

00:50:37.362 --> 00:50:38.664
vcs and offer them the same

00:50:38.704 --> 00:50:40.065
model right delegate to us

00:50:40.684 --> 00:50:41.545
you guys are in back audit

00:50:41.565 --> 00:50:43.206
credits are we're

00:50:43.708 --> 00:50:44.668
intentionally very

00:50:44.708 --> 00:50:46.489
selective about the teams

00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:47.831
that we work with for this

00:50:47.871 --> 00:50:50.813
process right um I think

00:50:50.833 --> 00:50:51.572
that block you mean the

00:50:51.592 --> 00:50:52.514
blockchain teams you work with

00:50:53.967 --> 00:50:54.909
Uh, or about the,

00:50:54.969 --> 00:50:56.068
the teams that we validate for.

00:50:57.550 --> 00:50:58.530
Yeah.

00:50:58.550 --> 00:50:58.831
So, okay.

00:50:58.851 --> 00:50:58.971
Yeah.

00:50:58.990 --> 00:50:59.112
Yeah.

00:50:59.672 --> 00:50:59.831
Yeah.

00:50:59.891 --> 00:51:00.251
Exactly.

00:51:00.291 --> 00:51:01.873
We're intentionally really selective about,

00:51:02.094 --> 00:51:04.335
about choosing networks that we, uh,

00:51:04.375 --> 00:51:07.496
go live on, you know, there's a,

00:51:07.657 --> 00:51:08.277
there's a lot that goes

00:51:08.297 --> 00:51:09.097
into that calculation.

00:51:09.137 --> 00:51:10.199
And the hope is that we can

00:51:10.458 --> 00:51:11.699
get to work with them early

00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:12.521
and get to work them for a

00:51:12.561 --> 00:51:13.280
really long time.

00:51:13.862 --> 00:51:14.842
That's really our goal is to

00:51:14.862 --> 00:51:15.722
build these relationships

00:51:15.742 --> 00:51:16.503
with these teams for the

00:51:16.543 --> 00:51:18.125
longterm and then support

00:51:18.164 --> 00:51:19.666
their ecosystems as they flourish.

00:51:19.686 --> 00:51:19.865
Yeah.

00:51:21.061 --> 00:51:23.324
So are you in effect on retainer then,

00:51:23.605 --> 00:51:24.907
if you are validating for them?

00:51:24.927 --> 00:51:26.349
Can you be thought of it that way?

00:51:26.489 --> 00:51:28.873
And if you, so you give credit to the team,

00:51:28.893 --> 00:51:30.213
could that team then like

00:51:30.233 --> 00:51:31.376
assign credits to, hey,

00:51:31.396 --> 00:51:33.619
there's this dApp that's coming.

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:34.400
I wanna give that to them.

00:51:35.269 --> 00:51:36.250
Yeah, absolutely, man.

00:51:36.289 --> 00:51:36.469
Right.

00:51:36.871 --> 00:51:38.050
They can have it be their

00:51:38.210 --> 00:51:39.510
own projects that they're

00:51:39.532 --> 00:51:40.032
building or their own

00:51:40.072 --> 00:51:40.612
products that they're

00:51:40.632 --> 00:51:41.271
building that they need

00:51:41.331 --> 00:51:42.592
audited or they can turn

00:51:42.632 --> 00:51:43.532
around and hand off those

00:51:43.592 --> 00:51:45.052
audit credits to like maybe

00:51:45.072 --> 00:51:45.853
they want to launch a

00:51:45.934 --> 00:51:47.054
really cool game where you

00:51:47.074 --> 00:51:48.735
poke a cat on their network.

00:51:48.994 --> 00:51:49.235
Right.

00:51:49.835 --> 00:51:51.496
And that team maybe is

00:51:51.536 --> 00:51:52.416
they're super scrappy.

00:51:52.615 --> 00:51:53.476
They're bootstrapped.

00:51:53.797 --> 00:51:55.097
You know, they haven't raised funding.

00:51:55.137 --> 00:51:56.818
Maybe they want to go live

00:51:56.858 --> 00:51:57.697
sooner than the grant

00:51:57.717 --> 00:51:59.659
process or whatever can can

00:51:59.699 --> 00:52:00.119
get them there.

00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:01.759
And the team has the ability

00:52:01.778 --> 00:52:03.360
to we're super flexible, you know.

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:04.981
matter to us we want to work

00:52:05.021 --> 00:52:05.942
with people doing cool

00:52:05.961 --> 00:52:07.342
stuff and they're their

00:52:07.382 --> 00:52:08.242
audit credits to spend how

00:52:08.262 --> 00:52:09.764
they want right and so they

00:52:09.784 --> 00:52:10.885
can pass those along to

00:52:10.945 --> 00:52:11.945
either subsidize that team

00:52:11.985 --> 00:52:13.067
or wholly cover the cost of

00:52:13.086 --> 00:52:14.989
the audit which you know I

00:52:15.009 --> 00:52:16.889
mean we're really good at

00:52:16.909 --> 00:52:18.371
what we do so we're not

00:52:18.391 --> 00:52:20.652
cheap uh but we believe

00:52:20.672 --> 00:52:21.414
that we're the best in the

00:52:21.434 --> 00:52:22.974
business and so those teams

00:52:23.014 --> 00:52:24.976
get like an s-tier security

00:52:25.076 --> 00:52:26.797
audit uh that's basically

00:52:27.318 --> 00:52:29.139
free to them as a function

00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:30.880
of that delegation right so

00:52:32.454 --> 00:52:33.056
That's really cool.

00:52:33.476 --> 00:52:33.916
That's really cool.

00:52:33.936 --> 00:52:35.538
Thanks, man.

00:52:35.557 --> 00:52:36.018
We like it.

00:52:36.038 --> 00:52:36.838
The teams that we've worked

00:52:36.858 --> 00:52:37.599
with have really enjoyed

00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:38.400
that model so far.

00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:40.882
I think that is like one of

00:52:40.922 --> 00:52:42.083
the more valuable,

00:52:43.403 --> 00:52:44.844
like value adds that I've

00:52:44.885 --> 00:52:52.592
seen in recent time, like for, you know,

00:52:52.612 --> 00:52:53.753
like foundation teams.

00:52:54.012 --> 00:52:56.034
There's, there's like, you know,

00:52:57.130 --> 00:52:58.393
quite a few different like

00:52:58.414 --> 00:53:00.139
value ads that people have come up with,

00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:01.623
like over the last few

00:53:01.682 --> 00:53:03.688
years to be like more relevant to the,

00:53:04.550 --> 00:53:04.690
um,

00:53:06.192 --> 00:53:07.992
the big delegators like foundations.

00:53:08.012 --> 00:53:10.193
Um, but I think this one is like a pretty,

00:53:10.432 --> 00:53:12.092
pretty decent and important one,

00:53:12.152 --> 00:53:14.193
particularly like, I mean,

00:53:14.813 --> 00:53:17.014
there's a similar deal with, um,

00:53:17.074 --> 00:53:20.574
like SERP down here, uh, where he runs,

00:53:21.094 --> 00:53:25.335
uh, services on behalf of like the, um,

00:53:25.375 --> 00:53:27.556
foundation say foundation, for example,

00:53:27.695 --> 00:53:29.635
for teams that are still

00:53:29.675 --> 00:53:31.016
bootstrapping that they can

00:53:31.115 --> 00:53:32.496
get access to good quality

00:53:32.536 --> 00:53:34.217
services while they're sort of coming up.

00:53:34.237 --> 00:53:34.297
Um,

00:53:34.777 --> 00:53:38.221
And like a one-two punch of, you know,

00:53:38.661 --> 00:53:40.242
that perspective as well as

00:53:40.322 --> 00:53:41.864
like the security perspective.

00:53:42.284 --> 00:53:43.085
And then I think they've

00:53:43.105 --> 00:53:44.947
probably also partnered up with, you know,

00:53:45.007 --> 00:53:46.088
some marketers and stuff

00:53:46.108 --> 00:53:47.148
like that really helps

00:53:47.188 --> 00:53:49.771
drive those smaller teams

00:53:49.791 --> 00:53:55.036
who need like a bit of a step up.

00:53:55.097 --> 00:53:55.838
Yeah, I agree.

00:53:55.858 --> 00:53:56.577
Do you guys take,

00:53:56.778 --> 00:53:58.179
is there liability associated with that?

00:53:59.427 --> 00:54:00.268
There's no liability, right?

00:54:00.289 --> 00:54:01.371
You don't take any ownership of that.

00:54:01.771 --> 00:54:02.893
Does that take any ownership of that?

00:54:02.932 --> 00:54:04.153
Like if there's a,

00:54:04.914 --> 00:54:06.277
if there's a contract issue

00:54:06.317 --> 00:54:07.018
associated with something

00:54:07.038 --> 00:54:09.601
you guys have signed off on, is there any,

00:54:09.882 --> 00:54:10.342
do you guys,

00:54:10.362 --> 00:54:11.664
do you guys pick up spares

00:54:11.684 --> 00:54:12.726
when it comes to, Hey,

00:54:12.746 --> 00:54:13.827
there was a loss associated

00:54:13.847 --> 00:54:14.728
this contract and it was

00:54:14.748 --> 00:54:15.610
something that we reviewed.

00:54:15.650 --> 00:54:15.789
Like,

00:54:15.809 --> 00:54:17.311
is there insurance associated with that?

00:54:18.826 --> 00:54:19.585
I'm not aware that there's

00:54:19.746 --> 00:54:20.927
insurance associated with that,

00:54:20.987 --> 00:54:21.447
but I mean,

00:54:21.606 --> 00:54:22.927
in over five hundred security

00:54:22.967 --> 00:54:23.768
reviews that we've done,

00:54:23.927 --> 00:54:24.789
not a single one of our

00:54:24.829 --> 00:54:25.728
clients has experienced a

00:54:25.768 --> 00:54:27.309
loss of funds for, you know,

00:54:27.329 --> 00:54:29.690
scope of work that we've done.

00:54:29.710 --> 00:54:31.472
So, you know, that again,

00:54:31.552 --> 00:54:32.512
we like get in there.

00:54:32.992 --> 00:54:35.432
The goal is not to rubber stamp something,

00:54:35.512 --> 00:54:36.373
but the goal is to stake

00:54:36.393 --> 00:54:37.614
our reputation on those things.

00:54:37.954 --> 00:54:38.755
Right.

00:54:38.775 --> 00:54:39.655
So we've never experienced

00:54:39.675 --> 00:54:40.375
none of our clients have

00:54:40.394 --> 00:54:41.416
ever experienced a loss of

00:54:41.436 --> 00:54:43.297
funds as a result of code

00:54:43.317 --> 00:54:43.916
that we reviewed.

00:54:44.496 --> 00:54:47.679
So but as far as I know, anyway.

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:50.202
I think it would not be

00:54:51.503 --> 00:54:53.126
commonplace for people to

00:54:54.307 --> 00:54:55.750
provide that type of guarantee.

00:54:57.856 --> 00:54:58.596
I don't know if that's true.

00:54:59.177 --> 00:55:01.219
Yeah, I don't know.

00:55:01.259 --> 00:55:02.360
I think that is pretty true

00:55:02.420 --> 00:55:05.483
on the... Away from Web three type stuff.

00:55:05.523 --> 00:55:07.885
Like that's actually... In the trad space,

00:55:07.965 --> 00:55:09.045
it's gone.

00:55:09.206 --> 00:55:09.746
Yeah.

00:55:09.847 --> 00:55:10.927
I'm sort of looking at it

00:55:10.947 --> 00:55:12.389
from a purely like a Web

00:55:12.429 --> 00:55:13.329
three perspective.

00:55:13.891 --> 00:55:15.052
And people can be pretty

00:55:15.092 --> 00:55:17.713
litigious even for...

00:55:18.894 --> 00:55:19.777
potentially for like

00:55:19.838 --> 00:55:21.019
technical advice and due

00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:21.882
diligence and stuff like

00:55:21.902 --> 00:55:25.510
that so in the in the

00:55:25.530 --> 00:55:28.016
traditional space in

00:55:32.670 --> 00:55:33.869
So I guess I can say it

00:55:33.909 --> 00:55:34.971
doesn't work in insurance

00:55:35.010 --> 00:55:35.811
and stuff like that without

00:55:35.891 --> 00:55:36.972
really disclosing anything

00:55:37.012 --> 00:55:38.213
that I'm not allowed to.

00:55:40.333 --> 00:55:41.175
Like I have to have,

00:55:41.695 --> 00:55:42.456
if I'm going to give it

00:55:43.135 --> 00:55:44.077
like due diligence,

00:55:44.396 --> 00:55:45.697
and usually due diligence, right,

00:55:45.717 --> 00:55:48.539
is investors ask for it, right?

00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:49.699
That's why investors ask for

00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:50.280
due diligence.

00:55:50.300 --> 00:55:50.760
They want something

00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.202
technical to go in and go like,

00:55:52.842 --> 00:55:56.965
what's the quality of the code?

00:55:57.045 --> 00:55:57.585
Oh, look at that.

00:55:59.728 --> 00:56:00.047
Oh, dang.

00:56:00.068 --> 00:56:01.228
I asked our team to take him down.

00:56:02.849 --> 00:56:04.170
I was sick of what he was talking about,

00:56:04.210 --> 00:56:05.771
so I asked our guys to take him offline.

00:56:05.851 --> 00:56:07.813
Elon turned him off.

00:56:08.974 --> 00:56:09.114
But...

00:56:12.402 --> 00:56:12.563
Yeah,

00:56:12.583 --> 00:56:13.422
the long and short of it is like you

00:56:13.443 --> 00:56:14.844
write your report, you hand it in, right?

00:56:14.983 --> 00:56:16.324
And you have to have like

00:56:16.364 --> 00:56:17.744
pretty good insurance in case,

00:56:18.585 --> 00:56:19.744
let's say you just missed

00:56:19.764 --> 00:56:20.985
something fucking massive.

00:56:21.485 --> 00:56:22.806
And then like two weeks later,

00:56:22.826 --> 00:56:23.985
the regulator comes,

00:56:24.106 --> 00:56:24.706
especially if they're in a

00:56:24.726 --> 00:56:25.405
regulated industry,

00:56:25.445 --> 00:56:26.686
regulator comes in and goes like,

00:56:26.827 --> 00:56:27.447
what the fuck?

00:56:27.567 --> 00:56:29.467
It turns out it was so bad.

00:56:29.507 --> 00:56:30.307
They had no idea.

00:56:30.387 --> 00:56:32.068
And you were like there for

00:56:32.128 --> 00:56:33.007
two weeks talking to all

00:56:33.028 --> 00:56:34.568
their engineering teams and like,

00:56:35.088 --> 00:56:35.990
shooting the shit and trying

00:56:36.010 --> 00:56:36.572
to find out if they were

00:56:36.592 --> 00:56:37.532
any good and they were just

00:56:37.592 --> 00:56:38.655
hiding all the bad shit

00:56:38.675 --> 00:56:40.197
from you sure yeah that

00:56:40.277 --> 00:56:41.018
you're gonna get they're

00:56:41.038 --> 00:56:41.900
gonna shoot the messenger

00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:42.541
they're gonna be like that

00:56:42.561 --> 00:56:43.581
guy he talked to all of

00:56:43.601 --> 00:56:44.704
them he didn't spot that

00:56:44.804 --> 00:56:46.166
they were animals and you'd

00:56:46.226 --> 00:56:47.447
be like yeah we're trying

00:56:47.467 --> 00:56:48.389
to crack out the insurance

00:56:48.409 --> 00:56:49.612
lads we're in trouble

00:56:51.532 --> 00:56:53.273
It's so different, like, you know,

00:56:53.833 --> 00:56:56.576
tax structures or things like there.

00:56:57.077 --> 00:57:00.099
There are liabilities when it comes to,

00:57:00.458 --> 00:57:01.460
hey, I did your return.

00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:02.800
And these are the situations that we met.

00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:02.960
Like,

00:57:02.981 --> 00:57:04.161
there's some structure of that in

00:57:04.202 --> 00:57:04.902
terms of liability.

00:57:04.943 --> 00:57:06.143
So I was just curious if that.

00:57:06.463 --> 00:57:07.965
Yeah.

00:57:07.985 --> 00:57:08.764
Accountants are the same thing.

00:57:09.525 --> 00:57:09.925
But like,

00:57:10.025 --> 00:57:10.947
just because it came up because

00:57:10.967 --> 00:57:11.688
we were talking about the

00:57:12.288 --> 00:57:14.570
the the what was it by bit

00:57:14.630 --> 00:57:16.811
with the safe wallet fucking hack.

00:57:17.472 --> 00:57:20.134
like number one fucking chef

00:57:20.153 --> 00:57:20.934
kiss on that thing that

00:57:20.954 --> 00:57:21.855
thing was an awesome hack

00:57:21.894 --> 00:57:22.454
like that was like

00:57:22.494 --> 00:57:25.918
ridiculously cool um eric

00:57:25.938 --> 00:57:27.378
you're on mute but but like

00:57:27.478 --> 00:57:28.378
oh I'm just saying wow like

00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:30.260
yeah I know it was wild so

00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:31.320
so that yeah so somebody

00:57:31.961 --> 00:57:33.983
they so so they uh lazarus

00:57:34.003 --> 00:57:35.003
took ownership for it right

00:57:35.023 --> 00:57:36.443
so they they took over a

00:57:36.485 --> 00:57:37.385
developer's machine they

00:57:37.445 --> 00:57:38.686
figured out the way to be able to move

00:57:39.248 --> 00:57:41.010
AWS keys and they got access

00:57:41.030 --> 00:57:41.831
to that and they moved

00:57:42.291 --> 00:57:43.652
specific JavaScript up to

00:57:43.693 --> 00:57:45.434
AWS that waited for

00:57:45.474 --> 00:57:46.474
transaction from this

00:57:46.514 --> 00:57:48.617
specific wallet to then

00:57:49.056 --> 00:57:50.057
basically produce a

00:57:50.157 --> 00:57:51.539
different transaction

00:57:51.579 --> 00:57:52.800
behind the scenes than what

00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:53.981
was shown in safe.

00:57:54.822 --> 00:57:55.842
Fucking awesome, man.

00:57:55.862 --> 00:57:57.903
That is like legitimately cool.

00:57:58.525 --> 00:57:59.626
Um, and then everybody's like, oh yeah,

00:57:59.646 --> 00:58:01.827
you know, like, like for my eyes,

00:58:01.847 --> 00:58:03.608
that's totally safe liability.

00:58:04.389 --> 00:58:05.951
Like that is one hundred percent on them.

00:58:06.974 --> 00:58:08.034
Do you reckon that was, like,

00:58:08.956 --> 00:58:11.275
just some interested parties doing, like,

00:58:11.356 --> 00:58:11.655
the hack?

00:58:11.695 --> 00:58:12.577
Or do you think it was, like,

00:58:12.597 --> 00:58:14.376
a funded mercenary hack?

00:58:14.536 --> 00:58:16.038
It could have been, like, some... No, no,

00:58:16.057 --> 00:58:17.077
that was organized.

00:58:17.217 --> 00:58:19.038
That was people who... It

00:58:19.057 --> 00:58:19.818
was definitely Lazarus.

00:58:19.858 --> 00:58:20.418
But, like,

00:58:20.498 --> 00:58:21.818
if somebody within... Is it

00:58:21.858 --> 00:58:22.559
possible that somebody

00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:24.019
within SAFE was promised a

00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:24.679
hundred million?

00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:26.400
Or ten million?

00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:27.161
Or five million?

00:58:27.240 --> 00:58:28.101
Or two million?

00:58:28.141 --> 00:58:29.001
To be able to do that?

00:58:29.240 --> 00:58:31.021
Or to be able to allow that to happen?

00:58:32.001 --> 00:58:32.222
I mean...

00:58:33.141 --> 00:58:34.543
It's like,

00:58:34.563 --> 00:58:35.382
just drop the keys on the way

00:58:35.463 --> 00:58:36.282
out of your office.

00:58:36.903 --> 00:58:38.523
And then the other thing

00:58:38.543 --> 00:58:39.244
that just happened was

00:58:39.945 --> 00:58:41.005
O-One Node getting double

00:58:41.065 --> 00:58:42.885
signed on Osmosis.

00:58:43.025 --> 00:58:44.346
Was it Osmosis, Schultz?

00:58:44.365 --> 00:58:48.047
Yeah, it was Osmosis.

00:58:48.347 --> 00:58:50.789
With just this weird race bug in Horcrux,

00:58:50.869 --> 00:58:51.909
right?

00:58:52.949 --> 00:58:54.449
So they didn't do anything

00:58:54.489 --> 00:58:54.889
wrong with that.

00:58:54.909 --> 00:58:56.231
That was just a purely open source.

00:58:56.251 --> 00:58:58.371
And that liability is obviously on them,

00:58:58.751 --> 00:58:58.972
right?

00:58:59.012 --> 00:59:00.132
Because they're running this

00:59:00.211 --> 00:59:00.972
software that's

00:59:01.693 --> 00:59:03.193
that is, you know,

00:59:03.293 --> 00:59:03.954
whatever the hell it is.

00:59:04.514 --> 00:59:04.835
So,

00:59:05.514 --> 00:59:06.815
but it's like this whole idea of like

00:59:06.856 --> 00:59:07.755
liability when we start getting,

00:59:07.795 --> 00:59:08.777
like we were talking about before, Eric,

00:59:08.797 --> 00:59:09.717
like partnerships and like

00:59:09.737 --> 00:59:10.336
these groups are like

00:59:10.376 --> 00:59:11.197
working together and now

00:59:11.217 --> 00:59:11.737
we're starting with this

00:59:12.018 --> 00:59:12.998
huge like interchange type

00:59:13.018 --> 00:59:14.798
structure and like we're starting to,

00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:16.019
like these independent

00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:17.041
entities are now working

00:59:17.081 --> 00:59:17.860
much closer together.

00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.222
And this idea of liability

00:59:20.422 --> 00:59:22.623
is a pretty cool topic actually.

00:59:22.822 --> 00:59:23.563
Not, sorry,

00:59:23.643 --> 00:59:24.963
I'm not calling it like it has

00:59:25.025 --> 00:59:25.644
nothing to do with what

00:59:25.704 --> 00:59:26.204
we're talking about,

00:59:26.244 --> 00:59:26.925
but I'm just saying like,

00:59:27.065 --> 00:59:27.846
it's just pretty interesting.

00:59:28.516 --> 00:59:30.677
So, Eric, I don't know if, like,

00:59:30.697 --> 00:59:33.657
the liability would be on them,

00:59:34.077 --> 00:59:36.579
but they do have the opportunity to, like,

00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:39.840
step up to the plate for something.

00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:41.300
Like, I'm talking about the double sign.

00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:43.521
Like, it's... Well,

00:59:44.422 --> 00:59:46.083
when you delegate... They

00:59:46.123 --> 00:59:47.742
did step up and help.

00:59:47.802 --> 00:59:52.204
Yeah, so, yeah, that team... Strangelove.

00:59:52.264 --> 00:59:54.286
What?

00:59:54.306 --> 00:59:54.766
Strangelove.

00:59:55.306 --> 00:59:55.969
Yeah, Strangelove.

00:59:55.989 --> 00:59:56.148
Sorry,

00:59:56.188 --> 00:59:57.512
you're talking really quiet and

00:59:57.552 --> 00:59:58.614
Schultz's microphone is

00:59:58.693 --> 00:59:59.376
exceptionally loud.