1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520 where it's managed, you go like, well, look at that in 10 years time and that could actually be 2 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:10,960 like compound interest is magic, right? It can work for you. Whereas like, if you just pay your 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,960 own salary in 10 years time, you're like, great, cool, I've paid my salary, but you're probably 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,320 better off just saying, you know, validation was fun, but you know, fucking maybe maybe I just go 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:30,000 work on my dance for the next 10 years and then welcome to Game of Modes, a weekly podcast from 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:39,200 independent value data teams. Welcome to Game of Modes, a weekly podcast from independent value 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:46,400 data teams surviving bear markets since 2022 still here. We put off last week's episode because of 8 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:52,640 illness on the podcast. They were shits all around. There was a lot. I was ready to go to be fair, 9 00:00:52,640 --> 00:01:02,240 actually. I was all right. But everybody else was ill. So I had a hot bath and read Master and 10 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,360 Commander. So, oh, God, now you're reading it as well as watching it. I'm reading the series. 11 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:15,600 The whole series, like the whole the books, that exists. 20 bucks on eBay. That is a great 12 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:23,920 deal. That's a lot of content. How many books is that? 19. Although there's actually two more books. 13 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,480 There's actually two more books. There's a 20th, I think, and then he died while writing the 21st. 14 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:34,000 So there you go. It sounds like you need the bundle of holding in your life. Yeah. You ever 15 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,360 heard of this? What's that? The bundle of holding. The bundle of holding is like, it's like a humble 16 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:45,200 bundle where you pay like $5 for like 30 books. And sometimes it's, and it's by the authors. The 17 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,240 authors often do it, right? Sometimes you get stuff. I tend to get all of them just because I'm a 18 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,880 data hoarder. Yeah, I was going to say that that kind of feels like a hoarding thing. I remember 19 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,480 getting so excited the first time I saw that humble bundle. And then they became a burden to me. 20 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,000 And then they became a burden to me. I was like, I can just sleep with these. I've done it all these 21 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,520 games. I need to play them. Wait, explain the humble bundle. The humble bundle. Humble bundle. 22 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:18,400 Humble bundle is, it's originally for games where you pay like, you get to choose what you pay, 23 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,480 goes to charity, and you get like seven games. So you get to pay $5 for seven games. And often, 24 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,400 there's like good stuff in it, right? But it means that you end up ultimately having this massive 25 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,400 backlog of games that you're not actually interested in playing because you paid extra for 26 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,560 like just a couple of games that you wanted. Yeah, good model, right? Because you're like, 27 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,840 I hate games. And then, you know, the next time you have a long train journey, yes, I know. 28 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,400 Don't fucking say it. Next time on a long train journey, I'm just playing XCOM 2 again, aren't 29 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,920 I? Of course I am because I play XCOM 2. That's what I do on the train. When I'm like, Hey, 30 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:57,600 which version of lemmings are we going to play today? Do you actually play them? No, it just 31 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,520 seems like the type of thing that would be in a humble bundle. It's like, for a word. Yeah, 32 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:09,200 actually, hey, worms 2 is a fucking great game. That one stands up. Test of time. 33 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,960 That got me through lockdown. No, worms are no worms are we getting words? Well, part no, 34 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:21,840 not world party. Worms WMD. Oh, yeah, WMD. Playing that with the lads every Thursday. 35 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:27,680 That's great. What was that? Captain King. Is it Captain King? I don't know that one. 36 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:34,160 It's a real early game, like fucking back in the day. It's like before games were games. 37 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,880 This is Captain King. Before games were games. Real man. 38 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:48,720 So to our viewers who are expecting, this shit had to poke at you. 39 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,880 Really looking forward to our skip episode today, but he's not coming. So yeah. 40 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,720 And we had some confusion on the timings and dad had to go out for cigarettes. 41 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,680 So it's going to be next week. Yeah, there was a scheduling conflict due to some 42 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,880 calendar snafus. So typical gone shit, but that'll be here next week. So you'll be able to enjoy that. 43 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:18,640 Yeah, and we'll be as incisive as ever, I believe. So are we going to do a, I think we should do, 44 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,480 are we going to do an awards show? Because that was appetised, right? We said, 45 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:28,080 so the problem was for those listening, right? We, as professionals, we are, we're very professional, 46 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,200 obviously. We had a set of topics and also we have also done some previous years. So, 47 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:44,240 you know, posited on the group chat, some topics to the lads, and there was a deafening silence 48 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,360 of not getting a shit. Now, I appreciate that we have had what even fucking year are we in? 49 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:54,240 We have had nearly three years of bear market at this point. 50 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,920 You know what it is, the fray and the excitement maybe is not that I understand that, but no, 51 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:05,760 no, it's appointed by lack of energy. That's all. It's not that it's not that it's that the eco is 52 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:12,000 so fucking broad now that it's impossible to be on top of it all. And like, if we're out here trying 53 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,960 to like pick things, I mean, we're only picking things out of our own little world. And, you know, 54 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:24,560 I just don't have the energy to go and like educate myself on all of the other bullshit so that we 55 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,920 can be like, you know, some kind of accurate. If that makes any sense, I think we're just giving 56 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:36,640 awards to just random shit. I would agree with that. Yeah, it feels like as we've all expanded 57 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:43,280 more, there are less things that you can really pinpoint as award worthy, which makes it tough. 58 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:50,240 Which makes it tough. It's not as fun. Like our own sphere of the ecosystem is probably just a small 59 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,840 fraction. Like we're into the things we're into and we're not all into the same things. And like, 60 00:05:55,840 --> 00:06:01,680 I might think something's great and you might never have fucking heard of it. So, you know, 61 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,680 that would be a fault of this podcast. I would say that we are failing with this podcast though. 62 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,880 Would it not? No, not real. This is sort of the forum. This is the forum. I mean, we're not fucking, 63 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:17,280 we're not a podcast of researchers. We don't sit there just like researching all day. So, we're 64 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:24,560 working, doing fucking work. And only sort of, you know, when you're working, you're only interested 65 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:30,480 in the things that make you money and are like, you know, business pertinent to business. You're 66 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:37,280 not on Twitter 25 hours a day fucking scrolling through shit making notes. We still make money. 67 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:45,680 Oh, yeah, there's money to be made. Yeah. Yeah, true. So I mean, I don't print it. I don't paint it. 68 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,440 Don't print it. Don't make it. Yeah, fair enough. It's been some time. It's been some time. 69 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,920 It's been some time. I think I think the problem I have more with the with the award show is it's 70 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:03,520 been quite some time really since all of our eggs as a company, at least in the crypto, 71 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,080 because we still obviously do other stuff weren't kind of in one basket. So it's kind of just like, 72 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:14,800 well, you know, there's only we were we were we were always doing fewer chains. And for the longest 73 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,520 time, only one's making us any money. So it's kind of like, well, we're interested in other things. 74 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:25,440 But, you know, DVT stuff, cool. Does it make us any money? No, you know, it just costs a server 75 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,280 costs every month, you know. So there's a whole bunch of things like that, I think, where it's 76 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,080 like things you're interested in. But like, you can't not sure you can slap an award on something 77 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,840 that's that's not a good business decision. Although that would eliminate a lot of things 78 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,760 in this case. That's not a business decision. You can't give that an award. Okay, well, 79 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:51,600 what are we going to do then? Fair point. To against myself there on DVT, though, 80 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,480 on DVT, at least it's kind of interesting. It is kind of interesting. 81 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:02,080 Yeah. Yes, you're right. It doesn't make any money, but it is kind of interesting. 82 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,520 It does make more of a public service. 83 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,400 More of a public service, which is funny, because, you know, that would be a good argument 84 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,200 if you were working in an area where some people weren't quite literally printing money. 85 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:22,080 So I don't know, like, it's yeah, I remember the other day, friend of the podcast hit us up 86 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,400 in the group and it's like, you guys are going to be keeping up your camera. If it was light 87 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:32,800 or SSV cluster or, you know, nodes, and we're like, yeah, man, it was SSV. It was like, yeah, man, 88 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,720 we're committed to keeping those things running. And then later on he messaged and he's like, 89 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:44,480 oh yeah, so I've put up a validator on yours guys nodes. And I'm like, cool. And he's like, 90 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,160 yeah, I've bought enough SSV to last seven years or something. And I'm like, 91 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,040 I don't think any of us even charge fees. 92 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,560 I, how do you charge? 93 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:57,200 How do you even charge fees? 94 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,280 You set the amount of SSV that you want to charge when you start to set the thing up. 95 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,920 And I, the thing I just put zero one or something like that. 96 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,440 Because I am paying the fees for it. So I'm pretty sure. 97 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,200 Okay. So there is some sort of fee. How much are you paying? Is it tell you? 98 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,600 It's one SSV per node per year. 99 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,080 Okay. So we all must have put in one SSV. It must have required something. 100 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,360 You can put zero. You can put zero, but everyone put in one. 101 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,920 Geez, I must be flush with SSV now. 102 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,760 I don't think I have any SS. Oh, well, I guess we will have some SSV. 103 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,800 Don't know how to claim it. 104 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,120 I think it's periodically paid out. I'm not sure though. 105 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,680 Oh, I can know this man. That was, that was one of those ones where it was set up using 106 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:45,280 quite a bit of automation when we were having a sleep regression. And, you know, anything that 107 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,080 could have been done, anything that was done where it is like the servers and it has alerting 108 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,400 in front of it and blah, blah, blah. That was all done with automated deployment stuff. 109 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,600 So I'm happy and cool that that all works. And it's got dashboards and whatnot. 110 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,160 But everything that was done via that SSV UI, which is also not great, 111 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,880 it was just a case of like, put in the numbers. 112 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:16,560 But I think it was like literally me in a chat with Shorts, who'd be like, 113 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:19,600 what are all these numbers mean? Shorts being like, oh, well, yes, here's how you do it. 114 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:26,000 And I'm just like, let's imagine that I am tired and really stupid right now. 115 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:32,000 What number do I put in box B is like, I literally don't put in five. 116 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,760 And I'm like, I've put in five and hit enter. Shorts is like, no, 117 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:41,440 no, that's the one number you couldn't put in. That's the last number you should have. 118 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,680 You always put, if you don't put one, you always put seven because seven is lucky 119 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:49,200 and it makes the blockchain go faster. And I'm sorry, I broke the whole blockchain. 120 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:55,200 I literally just had that conversation with Zenrock like three days ago, 121 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,000 where we hop on a call and I'm like, okay, imagine I've never used a terminal before 122 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:06,240 and I have a newborn and I'm really tired and I have like eight. Now let's continue and try 123 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,400 and figure this out. And the guy was like, sweet. And then it was like, I swear to God, 124 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,800 it was the single smoothest like paired programming session I've ever had in my life. 125 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,720 The paired programming, but like paired working through something. My God, it was glorious. 126 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,680 Treating me like an idiot and everything is deeply. 127 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,120 That's not a fantastic thing. 128 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:28,480 Zenrock was particularly confusing in some respects, maybe just because it's different. 129 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,440 Irrequiring Kubernetes definitely didn't help. 130 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,520 And how did you use Kubernetes? 131 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,920 Is this recent history we're talking about or a while ago? 132 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,840 No, this was literally like three days ago. 133 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,280 Oh, there's a binary is now. 134 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,160 We have binaries. Well, so you don't have to use helm anymore. 135 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:50,640 Yeah. So this is for their, their distributed signing, not for the validator. 136 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,760 Oh, right. Oh, fucking. 137 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,760 Yeah. So is this like their version of Horcrux or something? 138 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:06,320 Kind of, but not really. It'd be more like their version of SSV where it's all separate people 139 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,720 signing keys effectively. But it's not, again, it's not for the validator. 140 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,120 It's for kind of like a different side of their product. 141 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:15,760 Interesting. 142 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,280 Yeah. I was like, I stically note that on their website, they use the word decentralized multiple 143 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,720 times and they don't sign sources and even define the word decentralized. 144 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,560 My goodness. I mean, what does that mean? 145 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,080 I wonder if somebody was writing a paper on what that was, I mean, 146 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120 lots of people are writing words on all that writing words and what that paper means, 147 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,480 writing papers and what that word means. 148 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,280 But I don't even know what you're saying then. 149 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,040 Fuck if I do, mate. 150 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,840 So last night, you can look forward to this because you go get through a whole bunch of 151 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,680 sleep regressions and then you can do potty training and you're going to sound as fucking 152 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:54,640 incoherent as I do. 153 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:02,800 We are, we are just, just got over a sleep regression and I'm still currently sleeping 154 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:10,240 on the floor of the office during the night. And my partner comes and swaps with me at 3am 155 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:16,400 and I come and take the morning shift when your man fucking starts to wake up. 156 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:24,800 So last night, Kelly said that the baby was great last night, slept most of the night, 157 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:31,840 you know, good night. And meanwhile, on the floor of the office, I fielded about fucking 50 158 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,680 page page duty fucking alarms. She came at 3am and I'm like, fuck off. 159 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,200 I am. 160 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,280 Spellings were real. That's a lot of fucking page duty action. 161 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:51,200 There was this fuck of a network that just kept stalling. 162 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Couldn't be neutron because it just stalled once for 24 hours or 28 hours. 163 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,560 I kept fixing it and it kept stalling. 164 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Oh, it was neutron. How did you fix it? 165 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,640 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, sorry. It wasn't, it wasn't neutron. It was a, it was an archive. 166 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,280 It's particularly a pain in the butt. 167 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:15,920 It's still unclear why, but I've been trying to figure it out with the team. 168 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:23,120 But anyway, it did just keep stalling. So now I've just put my super special little script 169 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,280 in there to make it not do that anymore by way of just restarting it when it stalls. 170 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,200 So that's the temporary fix at the moment. 171 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:32,480 When in doubt. 172 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,560 Yeah, I've actually got that script now as like, it goes on all of the servers and just 173 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:44,320 takes arguments. So it's like, you know, this just instead of having to like copy it across 174 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,920 and put it into, you know, run it in, I don't know, the background or whatever, 175 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,720 you can just, you know, run it straight out of the user bin on every server. 176 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,080 We rewrite it in Rust. 177 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,920 Networks got shit that stalls apparently. 178 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,320 Rewrite it in Rust, put it in a Docker container, call it production ready. 179 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,440 Open source it. 180 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,440 You can put bash scripts into user bin and just use this. 181 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,160 I did that. I actually have something very similar that I did use Docker for. 182 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,200 Docker is not happy when you try and restart a service outside of it. I'll have you know. 183 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,280 In fact, it's very unhappy about that. 184 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,920 Now if you think about it more than a second and why? 185 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:22,800 Yeah. 186 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,760 I Docker makes it easy to reproduce. 187 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,040 Yeah, basically. 188 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,560 But I didn't think about the fact that Docker, the kind of the purpose of it is to 189 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,800 not interfere with the services outside of it. 190 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,160 And so I was debugging it for like, probably a day like, what the hell? 191 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,480 I know this works. I know it works. I just know it works. It doesn't work. 192 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,880 And so I just have to run it natively now. 193 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:51,520 Ah, yes. So my new friend is just having in Ansible a folder filled with fucking 194 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,600 random scripts that I use and then just putting them into the user bin. 195 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,360 And then just using them. It's great. 196 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:02,960 Handy handy little helpers there. 197 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,920 Maybe I'll call that the role handy little helpers. 198 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,120 Handy little helpers. 199 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,840 The user bin handy little helpers. 200 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,800 Hey, just like I said, just put all those handy little helpers into a rust binary. 201 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,200 Open source it handy little helpers.rs. 202 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,280 Sell consultancy for your handy little helper service. 203 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,480 Give away the secrets, man. 204 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:25,680 The secret sources system. 205 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:26,960 We could totally restart. 206 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:27,680 We all know that. 207 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Yeah. 208 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Secret. 209 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:31,360 Shelling out. 210 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:39,360 I remember very early in my career as in like the first time I was really doing any ops work 211 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,360 over 10 years ago. 212 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,040 I was trying to basically get these reproducible things working on some servers. 213 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,560 We're moving to Docker. 214 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,640 This was when Docker was pre version one. 215 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:51,840 It was really, really early days. 216 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,680 And before Docker compose, before any of that, when Docker compose was in like 217 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,480 Alfred, it was called fig. 218 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,840 That's how long ago this was. 219 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:09,280 And we were running Ruby on Rails apps and needed to deploy them with a bunch of specific 220 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:10,560 to Ruby stuff. 221 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:18,000 And so I wrote this kind of Ruby wrapper for essentially like sort of Docker deployments 222 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,840 remotely that was a little bit inspired by Capistrano. 223 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:28,000 But because of how there wasn't any good way of actually ultimately doing the final bits 224 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,160 of orchestration that you needed other than just via the command line. 225 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,920 In the end, like because you could obviously, there are ways of interacting with the command 226 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,560 line via Ruby that use libraries that go like, oh, I'll just call this thing for you or whatever. 227 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:46,400 But then by some use, you're writing abstract object classes to like add additional arguments 228 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,840 to a thing because it takes more arguments than the developers have thought you'd need 229 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:50,640 or whatever. 230 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,360 You just go like system M out. 231 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:00,560 And so like it was this like, like the command line interface for this Ruby utility was like 232 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:01,280 actually all right. 233 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,800 But then when you dug right way down into the code, eventually it was just like 234 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,960 most of the harder Docker stuff was just system out. 235 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,120 Like it could have been done by bash by bash group. 236 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,520 And it was just like one of those like, oh, this is cool. 237 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,280 We can use this for this and that and the other. 238 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,280 And you're just like, just do not look in the internals. 239 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,480 Just do not look in the internals. 240 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,040 You realize I've just written a bash script, but in Ruby. 241 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:23,040 Yeah. 242 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,840 I was so proud of that for a little while because I was like, oh, well, it kind of works. 243 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,360 I thought about it a bit more. 244 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,720 I said, this is fucking stupid. 245 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,680 But yeah, I quite love bash scripting. 246 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,880 I think it's great. 247 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,360 It's great. 248 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:36,880 It's pretty hot take. 249 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:37,120 Yeah. 250 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,200 Like there are so many edge cases I can think of, but I couldn't describe like effectively over 251 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,320 a video where like you think you're doing it right. 252 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,040 And then one small syntactical problem ruins it and your day is effectively ruined. 253 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:58,240 I have never spent so long trying to understand something than reading the fucking bash manual. 254 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:00,800 It's fucking. 255 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:01,120 Yeah. 256 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:09,680 It's a really long B. There is so much shit in there and C. It just does all this stuff that's weird. 257 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,680 But I don't know when you get it, when you get it humming, it's humming. 258 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:19,280 But if your bash script is longer than about 20 lines and it's not a build script, 259 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:20,320 build scripts are the exception. 260 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,320 We allow build scripts, right? 261 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,160 Because they get run every build. 262 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,080 So if they break, we fix them very quickly. 263 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,120 It's not a big deal if you have a big, scary, silly build script. 264 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:30,960 People freak out about that too much. 265 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,800 But any other situation, your bash script is longer than like. 266 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,520 I don't want to say 30 lines. 267 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,360 I think 30 lines is the length of bash script where I look at it and I go, 268 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:43,520 that's going to cause problems. 269 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:44,720 Something like that. 270 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,600 It's about basically like one page without tabbing down in the terminal. 271 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:57,840 If you just less it and it's about a page, you're like, okay, okay, that's fine. 272 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,120 I'm all right with that. 273 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:03,520 And if it has like the little arrow down, I'm like, no, no, no. 274 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,920 I think this might be doing too much. 275 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,400 And I start to get that little tingling in the palms of your hands where you know something bad 276 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,760 is going to happen at some point. 277 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,920 So I do have a script that is exactly 99 lines long. 278 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,480 So yeah, I get over the 20. 279 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,400 I think I've got one that's like 400. 280 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,920 Yeah, definitely have longer ones. 281 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,680 This is just the first one I clicked on. 282 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:25,920 Eek. 283 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,040 In my defense, a lot of it is logging. 284 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:31,600 Yeah. 285 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:37,040 I mean, it would have to be 300 lines of logging for you to even get to null the size. 286 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:44,960 It might actually be for every function, I have the massive manual block of like six lines of 287 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,320 this is what's doing in this function. 288 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:46,960 So, 289 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,160 Ah, fair enough. 290 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,400 Oh, like actual code comments. 291 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:51,840 Code. 292 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:52,400 Yeah. 293 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:52,880 Yeah. 294 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,120 Yeah. 295 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:53,600 Okay. 296 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,400 The, the Juno build scripts were probably about 200 lines long back in the day. 297 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,240 But then I guess that was, that was building, building valid genesis file, 298 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,680 building the chain, launching the chain, uploading some smart contracts, making some accounts, 299 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,640 making everything work and then going like, does it all work now? 300 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:16,240 So that was a kind of, yeah, I would say if you just looked at that, like appropriate nothing, 301 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,080 you'd probably be like, this is fucking insanity. 302 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,760 But then at the same time, like, I think Reese wasn't scared by it when he looked at it. 303 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,920 I don't know what that says about the script. 304 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:24,800 But, you know, 305 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,800 yeah, maybe tentatively roll back my harshness about the, about the length of the bash scripts. 306 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,160 We'll see. 307 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,840 I do quite enjoy in bash that like most of the exits from blocks, like a case block, 308 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,520 the exit is ESAC. 309 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,520 And if it's like five, for example, just keeps going. 310 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:46,880 Yeah. 311 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,480 Anyway, it's a lot of mine. 312 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,520 Okey-doke. 313 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:52,240 Okey-doke. 314 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,960 Moving on. 315 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,000 Moving on. 316 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,920 That's a good, I'm glad that you enjoy your ESACs. 317 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,400 You've got to have something to keep your spirits up in these trying times. 318 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:04,800 Yeah. 319 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:05,120 Yeah. 320 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,400 It's the little things that, you know, really make life work. 321 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,280 Like, case backwards. 322 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:10,480 In fact. 323 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:11,680 Yeah. 324 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,160 ESAC on the fire. 325 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:16,640 Shit. 326 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,360 It's like, so it's, oh, hang on. 327 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,120 We've got, we've got a thing for this. 328 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,600 It's, it's pay your taxes time here. 329 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,840 Like, have you reported them and pay them and then you need to pay them for companies, 330 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:40,560 which means that it's the time of year where I look at our five year financials and remember 331 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,080 just how much, just how much we lost by staking in Cosmos. 332 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,960 And so that's fun as well. 333 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:55,200 So I think in the chat earlier, Rahm was like, oh, we're still in a bad way. 334 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,520 And it's like, well, you know, it's all relative, right? 335 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,800 Remember, June, June, I was $40 once. 336 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,240 And so, you know, if you, if you stake that June here. 337 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:13,920 I think, I think gauging overall market sentiment on the price of June is a little bit misplaced. 338 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,280 Well, no, you should probably gauge it on fucking Bitcoin, right? 339 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:24,080 Yeah. Well, like, you know, anything else, I think, like just a random main point on Salon 340 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:24,960 are probably better. 341 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,440 Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably true. 342 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,640 Probably like, you know, if you, if I think if you look at like the top 20, like, 343 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,680 you can say, if you look at maybe like Ethereum, Bitcoin, let's say, because they kind of are 344 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,920 in a class of their own in terms of what they do, although correlated, obviously. 345 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,920 And then, you know, some, do you know what they're, and obviously, as soon as I think 346 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,520 about this, they're obviously like a thousand, there'll be a thousand research papers on this, 347 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:53,840 on how you actually classify what the market's doing in terms of altcoins and also Bitcoin 348 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:59,920 and Ethereum. I could just look it up. Maybe I will. But I guess, like from our point of view, 349 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,240 the thing that's relevant, things most relevant to the majority of validators, given that it's 350 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:11,920 purely like, what's it called? Ethereum is just like a margins game. 351 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,600 The altcoins are always going to be where the future of our businesses is validators are, right? 352 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,120 Because they're the only ones that can have an upside to taking on counter-party risk, 353 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:28,400 essentially. Because the other, the parties are over in the other places. 354 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:30,880 But yeah. 355 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,840 The parties are over? 356 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:39,520 Well, it's like trying to elbow into Solana right now, right? You can jump in and pay your 357 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:46,480 and pay your two Solana, 15 Solana a month just to run your node. But now it's $250 per Solana, 358 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,000 or whatever it is, versus when the start is like 30 cents each, right? 359 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,920 Yeah. Sounds like that needs an adjustment. Is there a lot of Solana validators? 360 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,440 Hundreds, many hundreds, maybe even thousands, many, many, many. 361 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,560 All paying, what did you say, 15 Solana a month? 362 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,400 About 15 a month. Yeah. 363 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,840 So like three grand? 364 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,840 Yeah. You have to pay in order to like validate transactions because in Solana, 365 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:18,560 a transaction is how you sign. And so for every 0.2 second block, you're doing a transaction. 366 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,480 And every other validator is also doing transaction. It's one of the ways that they 367 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,120 kind of like game the system for there, how much transactions they're getting through 368 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,560 on the network. Because if there's a thousand validators and they're doing a transaction, 369 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,320 then suddenly they're saying they're doing, you know, 5,000 transactions per second. 370 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,440 When all that is doing is moving a block one forward. 371 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:46,960 Yeah. I remember actually that's similar to say when you looked at the stats on say when they first 372 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:54,800 were launched, there was like, you know, 40 transactions per block, which is, you know, 373 00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:00,160 120 transactions per second, which was just like the oracle. 374 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,880 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 375 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:05,920 the 376 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,840 120 million blocks. That's a lot of transactions. 377 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,840 Yeah. But the point dance getting in on those established networks is 378 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,200 the knowledge point, right? 379 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:22,560 Yeah. Yeah. So and, you know, even with like these Cosmos SDK or other altcoin networks, 380 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,880 after the initial launch, it is really hard to break into anyway, even just weeks or a month 381 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,400 after, because most of the initial staking is done in that period. And then it's pretty hard to move 382 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,480 stake from people after they do that. A lot of people just set it and forget it, collect their 383 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,280 rewards or whatever. So I mean, a great example of that is the validator, the so-called skips 384 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,640 validator on the hub right now. They rebranded, I remember what they were before. 385 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:55,520 Oh, yeah. Something 3S in 3S or something like that. Something like that. Yeah. And they changed 386 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:03,280 to skip whenever skip rebranded to interchain labs. Interchain ink. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Interchain 387 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,400 it. Interchain ink. Yeah. Well, regardless, validator rebranded. Ask next week. Yeah. 388 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,200 Yeah. Validator rebranded and changed the commission to 100%. And very few people have 389 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,800 left and they have 200,000 atoms staked to them. Yeah. I think a few over the years, 390 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,360 like a few people have pulled that move, haven't they? There was that, 391 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,880 um, fuck who was, I can't remember the name of them. They did it and they're like, oh, 392 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,480 it was a mistake. And then we're like, oh, we'll reduce it at like 1% a day for the next 100 days 393 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:39,920 or something. Yeah. I'm surprised they could ramp it up that quickly because you have like a 394 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,200 maximum day change. You have a maximum change, don't you? With the time? Yeah. The funny thing is, 395 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:51,840 is that the maximum change applies to going up, not down. Yeah. So they had the ability to change 396 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,480 it all at once. That's funny. I assumed it was bi-directional. So today I learned something 397 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,480 new about the Cosmos SDK. I think that's how it works anyway, from memory. I mean, 398 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,720 the more toxic thing is going up. So you would assume that that would be the way it was 399 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,160 implemented. But I guess I just assumed it was, it was both, but that could, that could need some 400 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,200 fact checking. I could need, I could need just a little bit of fact checking, but that's fine. 401 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:24,640 Yeah. Anyway, so skip next week. That'll be good. Yeah. There's quite a few things. Actually, 402 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:32,640 I think it's probably not so bad having them next week anyway, so we can make an appropriate 403 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,360 episode name, give a little bit of advertising, do a little bit more research, because they're into, 404 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,160 they're into quite a few things. And I'm wondering if they still have like, because 405 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:50,400 they've been into Chain, Inc. I guess the Cosmos stack is their primary, you know, product now 406 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,600 or objective. But I'm just wondering what happens also with all their other products that they have 407 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:03,360 throughout the Cosmos, which they had been working on previously. So be good to get 408 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,000 some more questions armed up around those types of projects and what that means for them. 409 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,840 Presumably they'll continue on with it. I'm curious how the acquisition worked. Like, 410 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,000 are they acquiring the entire team as an Aqua hire so that they can specifically work on the 411 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,400 Cosmos SDK? Or what? I doubt they're going to talk about it, but I just find those things really 412 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,720 interesting. Well, I noticed some emails are still skip emails and some are interchain, Inc. emails. 413 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,240 So yeah, I don't know. Maybe they've got like a skip team within interchain, Inc. now, like maybe 414 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:46,160 a division, the skip division. Who knows? We can ask. Speaking of Aqua hires, we also saw a 415 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:58,400 longstanding validator. That was news. So friends has been, I want to say acquired by 416 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:06,640 restake validator. I think I'd restake was big, big enough to acquire anybody ready. 417 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:15,200 That was sort of a surprise. So I don't know that I've ever heard of the actual restake 418 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,880 validator before. And looking at their list of networks that they support, maybe they're 419 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,280 reasonably new to the Cosmos. Right. So it's like sweet and a handful of others, right? 420 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:36,000 I think I saw some Solana. I'm not sure if I saw sweet and yeah, a grab bag of other 421 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:46,720 Cosmos SDK networks. But I guess they're making that was their way of making an entry easier 422 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:53,120 to the to the eco. Just have someone who's already got a few validators around. Yeah. And I see that 423 00:30:53,120 --> 00:31:00,640 that Yuri has actually, no shit. I saw that Yuri has actually joined their team as well from 424 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,880 friends. So maybe like a merger type situation, not a hundred percent sure. Well, friends was 425 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,320 trying to sell like a year ago. I remember reading their pitch deck for why they're selling. 426 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,760 So I do imagine it was acquisition. I think they were trying to get out, right? Why would they 427 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,840 have a deck if they weren't trying to sell? So I bet it's some sort of like golden handcuff 428 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,840 type of thing where they want to maintain the connections for a year or two. And then the 429 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,520 founder of friends will bounce once that's over. How did you happen to cross that? Was it like, 430 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:42,800 like, did they did they contact you or? No, no. I don't remember. It was shared in like a ZIP group. 431 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:49,120 In a what group? A business development group. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. 432 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,200 That was like, I'll buy that for a dollar. Yeah, I was just reading these comments. So 433 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,960 Rama says that skip is interchaining now. Skip doesn't exist anymore. All the investors were 434 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:11,120 paid out. Skip had skip now has 350 million dollars of interchain foundation funds. 435 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,840 Well, I just kind of raises more questions for me. Like, how were they bought? Were they bought 436 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:22,480 by the chain or they bought by the cosmos? I didn't vote on that, right? Like, what happened and how? 437 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:32,160 Skip now has the 350. Does that mean the skip the skip investors got paid out? 350 million? 438 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,320 Or that the new interchain ink is sitting on a treasury of 350 million? 439 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,400 I mean, I guess no offense, but like skip wasn't it would have been if somebody was 440 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,760 if somebody was paid out, it would have been at the the market rate of skip, which would have been 441 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,160 a couple of mill dollars, right? Max, because it's just it's just knowledge and people, right? 442 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:59,280 Yeah, sure. What I meant more was like, what what's the system for how that worked, right? 443 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,280 Like it wasn't bought using the community funds, right? Right on the actual chain. 444 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:09,120 Oh, I think I think Rama's answered you in the in the comments, which is that ICF is an independent 445 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:19,840 organization. Okay, so skip was bought by the ICF. Okay. Yes, ICF is, I think, well, it was a it was 446 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,600 a must. There must have been some money involved, but was also a merger because the original ICF 447 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:32,080 is now named something different after the merger because it was in IO and now it's interchain ink. 448 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:38,240 Well, it was interchain it was interchain GMBH because it was based in Germany, wasn't it? 449 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,000 Okay. And now it's a I only know that because I had to reference the 450 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,400 tendermint documentation repeatedly in one of my papers. And so I had to find out what 451 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,440 who the who the who I was referencing what what company and it was, I'm pretty certain it was a 452 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,400 GMBH company. Although that that's probably our date because that would have been last September 453 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:02,720 when I wrote those references. But I'm damned if I'm going back and reformatting my Bibtex. Oh, no, 454 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:10,800 no, no, that that file is done. Yeah, just because I can't last shit is is continually changing 455 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,360 because this that and the other doesn't mean my references are going to get messed with that 456 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,920 shit took ages. And they're done. So yeah, I definitely definitely remember the the pain of 457 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:28,400 referencing the Harvard referencing. It's not it is less bad if you use latex. But 458 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:36,080 but I didn't for my first draft, I just fucking bashed it out in one caffeinated psychopathic 459 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,720 effort, 20,000 words or whatever in Google Docs and then had to refine it down to 10. 460 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,920 And then reformatting latex, which was stupid. Just right. If okay, so here's right pro tip. 461 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,520 Anybody listening to the podcast, you're going to do any kind of academic work, even undergraduate, 462 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:03,440 to be perfectly honest, just just start by learning latex and and and just do it in latex 463 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,720 editor. Just don't don't bother wasting your time because you can just get preformatted 464 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:16,560 Bibtex files of every paper that's published in any kind of non Mickey Mouse journal or even ones 465 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:24,160 that are independently uploaded to archive. You can just get a Bibtex reference and stick it in 466 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,600 and move on with your life and overleaf is a good way to start. It's free. It's online. You can 467 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:35,920 access it via your institution. Don't be like this guy and write the whole fucking paper and then 468 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,040 have to refine it and then have to reformat it. It is demoralizing as fuck. Don't do that. 469 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,560 Little D says just use chat GBT to convert to latex. 470 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,440 That's a horrifying suggestion. Please don't do that. 471 00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:02,240 Yes. So on on the subject of chat, GBT, recent subscriber right here, two thumbs up 472 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,720 and have also started using co pilot. And I don't know why I didn't jump on the train earlier. 473 00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:13,120 It's quite handy that shit. It's glorious. It makes everything well, not everything easier. 474 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,560 I think that the real foot gun at this point is having the knowledge to know when things are wrong. 475 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:26,640 Yeah, that is definitely, definitely a point because it is quite frequently will feed you 476 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:32,000 some bullshit. But yeah, you know, very confident. I mean, that's the point, right? 477 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:39,360 Yeah, but it's good for scaffolding. So and it's good for small changes. So, you know, say, 478 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:47,840 for example, ginger to is quite confusing when you have a large ginger to template. 479 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:57,280 And say you want to like change or add in like a say you have a really long template and it's 480 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,760 it's got a bunch of loops in there to like bring things in depending on if they're defined and that 481 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,440 type of stuff. And you want to add in like another check, you could just select it all and tell it 482 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:13,200 to add in another check for this thing. And if you're like pretty precise with your prompt, 483 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:19,360 it'll do it and do it well. If you're not precise with your prompt, it may do something else. 484 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:26,560 I mean, it sounds like you just created something very bad, which maybe is the whole point of why 485 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,160 it's fine because it's fine. What do you mean created something bad? Explain yourself. 486 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:38,880 So you just described nested loops, I think, which, you know, generally pretty well, 487 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:45,200 ginger is a templating language is not aware of where ginger is now. I used to work in Python. 488 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,280 Yeah, but, you know, is there a different way to do it? 489 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,960 Well, you can obviously abstract out some logic so that you don't have to do nested loops and you 490 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:01,200 can also do things like list of comprehensions and intermediate functions. Like there are lots of 491 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:09,920 other ways of breaking out abstractions of things that need computing or checking in kind of because 492 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,240 a lot of what you would be doing is guard clauses. And actually, it sounds like you're 493 00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:18,800 doing unnecessary iteration. And that sounds like exactly the sort of thing that you can probably 494 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,640 get chat GPD to come up with a solution for you. But it's going, it's back to Schultz's foot gun 495 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:31,680 thing. In fact, it's exactly I am just reiterating at longer length and more confused because I have 496 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:36,240 worked out a 10 hour day and then gone to a networking thing and then come on the podcast. 497 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:40,560 And I have no words left. I am just copying Schultz's homework of what he already said, 498 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:46,080 literally a minute ago. So I'll just say Schultz already said the thing about the foot gun and 499 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:52,320 the wrong and the okay. So, uh, Cope, oh, it's great for doing dumb shit then if that's what 500 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,160 you're into. I think it's just dependent on the environment you're in, I guess. Well, when you're 501 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:04,480 templating in Ansible, you only have so many fucking options. And you know, these, I don't see a way 502 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,440 around it. I'd love to have you take a look at it and you can tell me. I think Schultz had it. 503 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,320 Schultz had a point just there before I interrupted him. Well, I was going to go off on a bit of a 504 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:20,720 segue. So the nulls continue on this topic. I'm totally not doing it. Segue way out. Well, this 505 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:28,080 is irrelevant to the podcast, but I'm still kind of connected to my, um, my alma mater and chat GPT. 506 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:36,240 I think it's really damning for oncoming software engineers. Um, they won just the existence of 507 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:42,080 it means that junior engineers kind of having a hard time getting jobs, but two, they don't know 508 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:49,200 enough to know not to trust chat GPT and they can't kind of like intuit what's wrong with their answers, 509 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:56,640 like chat GPT's answers. Um, and I think that that's a serious, um, serious problem that 510 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:02,240 incoming software engineers have to deal with. Yeah. Fuck it. That's okay. Yeah. That's, I was 511 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:08,480 literally having a variant of that conversation earlier with, um, because not with the university 512 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,200 links, but I still do consulting and things in like trad tech stuff. And as somebody who's done 513 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,760 a lot of hiring before, I guess, like, especially like former colleagues and whatnot, they've just 514 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,320 gone on the traditional career and engineering career ladder while, you know, we were off being 515 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:30,960 DGNs over here. Um, but I guess I still, I still just about can, can like resuscitate 516 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,960 somebody else's opinion as my own to, to nod along with these conversations of people who have 517 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,320 responsible real jobs in tech. Um, but that is like something that has come up a fair bit is that 518 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:45,600 it's that, um, yeah, like that intuition, like you said, that you kind of, you just build up as 519 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,760 like work it like, um, uh, what's the term for journeymen, you know, like when you had craft 520 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,400 people in like olden times, you had like a novice apprentice and then you had a journeyman and 521 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,520 they would literally journey between different master crafts people and like learn from them 522 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:07,280 and build up their own intuition of how to create the outcome they were looking for, whether that 523 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,960 was a chair or a desk or a horse drawn carriage or whatever. And it was only when they became a, and, 524 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:19,840 and, and, you know, the, the idea of a master work, you know, it's sort of like, you cannot be 525 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,160 a master crafts person until you come up with your masterwork, right? And it's not possible 526 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,160 unless you go through all the pain of the iterative, iterative steps to build up the, 527 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,480 the reasoning of how to practically do these things. Because there's obviously book learning and, 528 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,280 and yada, yada, yada, but a lot of it is intuitive, especially in the past. And a lot of people have 529 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,920 made the connection between software engineering or programming, you know, programming as it is 530 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:49,040 outside of a big company, I suppose. And that kind of style of, of learning and progression. And 531 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:55,040 certainly at least for me, that's the, the progression that I went on from junior to senior 532 00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:01,680 to whatever took that shape. And I saw it in people that I managed and mentored and whatever. 533 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,760 And I think it's quite a good model. And, and, and actually, yeah, and that's the thing I kind of 534 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,000 worry about, like, I suppose, with those sort of things, it's like similar to what you were 535 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,200 saying, Shorsi, is that like, if you, if you don't build that intuition early, then you, 536 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,160 you really don't have a foundation for much to build upon because you're always just building 537 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:27,520 feedback loops for intuitive processes that are usually below your conscious brain. And then the 538 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:33,120 bit that the conscious brain is doing is usually the feedback loops around, about learning and 539 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:40,240 problem solving, which are like how you, how you gather enough information for your brain to then 540 00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:45,280 synthesize the solution. And that's quite a different problem space from the one that your 541 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:52,720 subconscious is working on. And the subconscious one only gets fed by experience. And chat, chat 542 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:58,240 gpt is basically short cutting that intuitive leap, it's short cutting that aha moment. 543 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:05,600 Yeah, exactly. I think that coding book came through an interesting example of that where I 544 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,200 know there's a lot of criticism coding boot camps, but some of the best engineers I've encountered 545 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:19,840 came from them. And I think that a coding boot camp will be a particularly bad spot for AI usage, 546 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:26,800 not to their fault, just that I've gone through them as like, kind of as an exercise to see what 547 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,600 it looks like. And a lot of them, you know, they do kind of advanced topics fairly quickly, and 548 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:37,600 they don't delve deep enough. And so it would be such an easy out to just be like, okay, well, 549 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:47,200 I'm not seeing this, but how do I, I don't know, convert HTML using CSS to make this widget bigger 550 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:53,040 as an example. Yeah, so like instead of instead of thinking harder on the on the thing, you just 551 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,520 get something else to do it. Well, but also sometimes it might genuinely be beyond you at that 552 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:05,440 point. So around the time I got my first job as a programmer, I mainly worked on front end stuff, 553 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,960 and I did some Ruby on Rails stuff. But you know, Ruby on Rails is relatively straightforward 554 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,640 within its own framework, like you can do a lot of back end stuff without having to know 555 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,840 how it all fits together. And I kind of knew I had this like big gap in my knowledge, right? I had 556 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:27,040 this very applied knowledge of like, decent HTML CSS JavaScript, okay, Ruby, okay. And then 557 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:32,720 I did one of those, I did one of those, you know, CS 101. There wasn't the MIT course where it might 558 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:39,600 have been like Udacity back in the day. I can't remember. And I remember doing like the basically 559 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,960 you work through an assignment, the whole course was gradually worked through an assignment, 560 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:49,840 where you essentially built a first a recreation of the original Google page rank algorithm. 561 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:57,200 That was what I was working up to. And it was done in Python. Come full circle to what would I 562 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,240 know about Python anyway. And I really, really distinctly remember like the thing that sticks 563 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:07,520 with me about that process is all the failures, right? Because and what was really interesting 564 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,520 about it is like you were saying shortly about when you get dumped into a topic area where it's 565 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:17,040 it's actually the gap between where you are and where the topic area is is potentially too wide. 566 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:23,280 I was working as a developer at that point. And I couldn't, there were some bits of that of that 567 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,240 algorithm, especially more complicated parts, which I actually couldn't couldn't figure out. 568 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:33,520 And if there had been chat GPT that I probably would have been able to get from a to b and solve it. 569 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,360 But I wouldn't have had any understanding. And what ended up happening was some of the final I 570 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:45,120 think I did get through it. And then I went on to the follow up and I literally got brickwalled by it. 571 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,680 And I couldn't do the next iteration of it. So I think I finished the CS 101, but I didn't 572 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:58,160 finish the 252, which was the follow up. And then many several years pass. And then I'm working on 573 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,480 a problem, which is a graph problem when I work for a data consultancy. And I realized I was working 574 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,000 on the problem that I had seen and failed at and never finished like several years before. 575 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:13,040 And obviously, in that context, I actually kind of by that point did know what I was doing, 576 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,200 solved it because it's part of my working day had to be done. And then just went back and looked it 577 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,600 up out of curiosity and was like, fuck me, no wonder I couldn't figure this out at the time. 578 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,760 But then had, you know, a very belated aha moment looking at it and going, oh, yeah, no, 579 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,320 actually, no, but I see, I see where my reasoning was going with what I've tried to do here. And 580 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,760 it was I was going completely the wrong direction. That's not how you solve this. Fine. But it's that, 581 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:44,000 you know, sometimes, sometimes learning something can be in the post for a very long time. And 582 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,280 maybe this is just me. I'm a very slow learner. So this is like very difficult of like, I don't 583 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:55,600 understand something. And then like years later, like fucking cosmos pre commits, man, that just 584 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,080 for the longest time, like, well, I was actually working on Juno Core just and then like years 585 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,720 later, you just like, oh, yeah, okay, mem pools. Everybody keeps talking about mem pools. And it's 586 00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:10,720 not when you it's not until a long time later when you're like, but what are the essential 587 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:15,520 components of building a blockchain? And you're like, you build a blockchain in your head from 588 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,920 first principles, and you always end up with a mem pool. And you're like, you know, there's a lot 589 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,120 of things in life like that is what I'm saying. And if you can shortcut the, the reasoning required 590 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,120 to understand why you need a mem pool, you end up building a blockchain without a mem pool and 591 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:34,080 just be like, oh, fuck, we need a mem pool. Like, I don't know, that's probably a bad example. 592 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,720 Well, I get it though. It's like, you need to have that difficulty in order to overcome it. 593 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,040 And not being able to let things simmer because you get an instant 594 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,840 gratification answer is not doing yourself like you're doing yourself a disservice, 595 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:55,120 to a certain extent, like at this point, like, no, I'm not criticizing you directly in any way, 596 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,520 shape or form. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be using chat tbt. 597 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,080 This is like 25 minutes. This has been purely criticizing enough the last 25 minutes. 598 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:07,440 Yeah, exactly. All for all for using chat for co-pilot and chat tbt. 599 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,240 Now, for us, for us running a business and we need to use as like a periphery of what we're 600 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:17,920 actually doing, like, who cares? Right? Like, I'm like, we it's solving something. 601 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:24,000 The work that works. Exactly. Yeah. But for someone that's still building up their core 602 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,840 strengths in order to create their career, that's where I think it's it can be a damning tool. 603 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,600 Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to make a career in fucking programming, but 604 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:40,000 I mean, I make a career in degeneracy, baby. Yeah, it suits our purpose. Even if it's doing 605 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,960 the wrong thing, even if I'm doing the wrong thing, it works perfectly for what I need it for. 606 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:52,320 So, you know, I don't have the benefit of being a programmer for the last fucking 20 years. So, 607 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,960 if I do things a little wrong, fuck it. I like it because it works. 608 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:02,640 But I use it as well. I have subscribed to it for like the last, I don't know, 12 months, 18 609 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:07,600 months. I use it mostly for like APIs. I don't like researching API. I'll just be like, Hey, 610 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,440 how do I send this over here? And then it'll be like, boom, I'll be like, cool. 611 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:18,640 I find it most useful for other people's API for shit documentation. God damn. 612 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:26,720 I find it most useful for like brainstorming ideas on how to solve a problem anyway. I use it a bit 613 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:33,680 in VS code for helping me just quickly change shit. But in like, you know, if I got like a more 614 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,880 complex problem with what I'm trying to do, I'll just talk to it for like an hour and say, you 615 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:44,560 know, start off with my issue and then explore with it the options it thinks is the way to do 616 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:51,600 things and then maybe come up with a scaffold of how I want to attack that problem and then start 617 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,800 trying to attack it. But I find it quite handy for that type of stuff. Not so much co-pilot, 618 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,040 but definitely chat GPT. Yeah. So I mean, 619 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:02,800 So you basically pair programming with it? 620 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,480 Yeah, because, you know, I'm not a, I don't have the benefit of years of programming and I'm 621 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:15,680 just building. So it's quite handy for that. Thinking out a problem, I guess, thinking. 622 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:22,160 I've got a, out of pure curiosity, this will take longer, but put a little, 623 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,880 put a little mascot or a duck or something on your desk. 624 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,840 And ask the duck. I knew that's where that was coming. I was going to say, 625 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,400 this sounds just like rubber ducky debugging the game. 626 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,920 It would take longer, but see whether you get to the same solution 627 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,600 and how that, whether there's a difference in satisfaction. 628 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,120 I really can't talk today. Satisfaction. I'd be really, really interested because like, 629 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:51,520 I've got literally got on my desk here, I talked to Totoro and in Totoro's little bag, 630 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,640 I also have the Buddha in case Totoro and cutting it. And you need to, 631 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:02,640 you need to appeal to a higher, a higher authority. You ask him, you ask the Buddha, 632 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,320 and if you need the highest authority of all, you got president business, 633 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,600 you got president business in case you really need with a little light. 634 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:11,280 This is what my Tanooki's for. 635 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:18,720 Exactly. You're just like, president business, could you help me? I can't solve this thing. 636 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:21,920 Okay. So what is asking the thing going to get for me? Explain. 637 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,920 Oh, right. So the point is you're always, 638 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,280 the solution is always going to come from your hind brain, right? It's going to come from an 639 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:35,760 intuitive leap. So what you're always trying to do is feed data to your brain to synthesize the 640 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:43,120 problem and then make the intuitive leap to solve it. So by ideating out loud, you iterate towards 641 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,480 a solution even in the absence of somebody talking back to you. So my thesis here, right, 642 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:55,440 is that chat GPT is useful, but the majority of the usefulness is your own brain chewing the problem. 643 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,840 And I'm just, I'm just naively curious, I suppose, whether you could get the same result 644 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:06,080 from describing your problem out loud to an inanimate object and letting your subconscious 645 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:12,640 figure it out. Because that's what junior developers were taught to do when, when I think 646 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:19,600 in some instances, yes, and other instances, no, because I don't necessarily have all of the inputs 647 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:26,640 required to be able to make the intuitive leap. For example, like there might be a technology 648 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:33,520 or a software that I'm just not aware of and wouldn't be able to arrive at on my own, a method 649 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,800 even that's employed by a particular software or package or something that I don't know about. 650 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:46,720 I might need to do something, but not think that it's possible with what is already sloshing around 651 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:53,440 just because I don't have the breadth of knowledge already to arrive at that. But if it's just a logic 652 00:52:53,440 --> 00:53:00,240 problem or something like that within a program, probably, yeah, I would assume that type of stuff 653 00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:05,840 I'd probably just think on anyway, while I'm like taking a shit. So I'd ask the wall, I'd ask the 654 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:06,960 Dunny. 655 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,320 Always ask the Dunny if you're stuck. 656 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:15,200 Yes, shits quite often take an hour and a half instead of 10 minutes just because I'm staring 657 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,040 at the corner of the shitter thinking. 658 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:24,640 And we too could have this problem if you decide to take the exciting career choice of being a 659 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:48,240 validator.