WEBVTT

00:00:00.009 --> 00:00:01.690
that any of the people would

00:00:01.810 --> 00:00:03.071
work with stable coins like

00:00:03.091 --> 00:00:03.871
it was completely off the

00:00:03.891 --> 00:00:05.953
table yeah and then it just

00:00:05.993 --> 00:00:07.073
came out that like yeah

00:00:07.113 --> 00:00:07.814
nobody gave a shit they

00:00:07.833 --> 00:00:08.653
just literally did not

00:00:08.734 --> 00:00:09.935
understand the framing of

00:00:09.994 --> 00:00:11.396
like how this shit actually

00:00:11.416 --> 00:00:12.435
works in production and I

00:00:12.455 --> 00:00:13.297
was like oh god that's on

00:00:13.336 --> 00:00:15.178
the table fuck we can we

00:00:15.198 --> 00:00:16.478
can just yolo a blockchain

00:00:16.518 --> 00:00:17.759
that's that's piss easy

00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:19.359
like let's just let's get

00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:21.001
this guy going and then we

00:00:21.041 --> 00:00:21.882
can build all the other

00:00:21.902 --> 00:00:23.022
shit that's actually the

00:00:23.062 --> 00:00:24.163
the point of the the whole

00:00:24.182 --> 00:00:25.263
party yeah fine fuck it

00:00:26.396 --> 00:00:27.135
And then I raised this with

00:00:27.155 --> 00:00:28.297
somebody who actually knew

00:00:28.336 --> 00:00:29.477
how the regulation worked,

00:00:29.516 --> 00:00:35.960
and they were like, whoa, no,

00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:37.560
that goes directly to jail, my man.

00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:38.701
And I was like, bollocks.

00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:39.460
I thought I had the cheat code.

00:00:39.481 --> 00:00:40.500
I thought that was the playbook, Bill.

00:00:40.521 --> 00:00:41.862
You figured out the economics first,

00:00:41.981 --> 00:00:43.142
and then you figure out the use case.

00:00:43.582 --> 00:00:44.243
I was like,

00:00:44.442 --> 00:00:45.643
I thought I had just found the

00:00:45.682 --> 00:00:46.423
cheat code.

00:00:48.503 --> 00:00:48.944
Totally wrong.

00:00:49.003 --> 00:00:50.604
Yeah, it turns out it's directly to jail.

00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:07.631
Hello and welcome to gaming notes,

00:01:07.671 --> 00:01:09.391
a weekly podcast from

00:01:09.432 --> 00:01:11.873
independent validated teams this week.

00:01:12.474 --> 00:01:13.215
We're graced with a guest.

00:01:13.256 --> 00:01:18.079
We're so new and improved, like rice, like,

00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:20.641
like core flakes being

00:01:20.682 --> 00:01:21.481
turned into frosties.

00:01:21.542 --> 00:01:22.462
Right.

00:01:22.483 --> 00:01:23.884
Do you have the tiger in America?

00:01:23.984 --> 00:01:24.465
Is that a thing?

00:01:25.066 --> 00:01:25.346
We do.

00:01:25.887 --> 00:01:26.546
You have the tiger?

00:01:26.888 --> 00:01:27.087
Yeah.

00:01:27.108 --> 00:01:27.908
Okay.

00:01:27.927 --> 00:01:28.649
This is great.

00:01:29.028 --> 00:01:29.129
Great.

00:01:29.150 --> 00:01:29.829
Oh, yeah.

00:01:30.831 --> 00:01:32.091
Okay.

00:01:32.111 --> 00:01:32.953
We're coming together.

00:01:32.972 --> 00:01:34.394
Tony the Tiger, is that what you mean?

00:01:34.433 --> 00:01:34.694
Yeah.

00:01:34.813 --> 00:01:35.415
Tony the Tiger.

00:01:36.034 --> 00:01:37.856
I was like, ah, God, he's got a name.

00:01:37.876 --> 00:01:38.277
He's got a name.

00:01:38.337 --> 00:01:38.718
He's got a name.

00:01:38.757 --> 00:01:39.097
What's the name?

00:01:39.138 --> 00:01:39.537
What's the name?

00:01:39.558 --> 00:01:40.218
Of course,

00:01:40.299 --> 00:01:41.579
it has to begin with a T because

00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:44.221
children got to remember that shit.

00:01:44.242 --> 00:01:45.343
Children are already like

00:01:45.442 --> 00:01:47.465
ADD as crap from eating the

00:01:48.066 --> 00:01:48.865
Tony the Tigers.

00:01:49.466 --> 00:01:50.328
Eating the Tony the Tigers?

00:01:50.388 --> 00:01:50.707
Yeah.

00:01:51.007 --> 00:01:51.828
imagine if they were the

00:01:51.868 --> 00:01:53.390
shape of a tiger that would

00:01:53.409 --> 00:01:54.530
be a much better frosty

00:01:55.010 --> 00:01:56.171
we've got Jasper from Seder

00:01:56.591 --> 00:01:58.132
joining us he's not shaped

00:01:58.153 --> 00:01:59.352
by Tony the tiger a real

00:01:59.393 --> 00:02:03.036
guest real guest like a

00:02:03.215 --> 00:02:04.516
real guest like this really

00:02:04.557 --> 00:02:06.558
important for those

00:02:06.617 --> 00:02:07.399
listening for those

00:02:07.438 --> 00:02:08.399
listening on podcast

00:02:08.438 --> 00:02:10.000
players later really

00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:11.341
important to to be clear

00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.201
about this just you're not

00:02:13.241 --> 00:02:14.823
shaped like a tiger he's

00:02:14.962 --> 00:02:15.824
not breakfast cereal

00:02:17.092 --> 00:02:18.894
That previous bit, that wasn't a bit.

00:02:19.813 --> 00:02:20.633
It's no relation.

00:02:20.954 --> 00:02:21.574
Someone who speaks at

00:02:21.615 --> 00:02:22.974
Consensus and shit is on our show.

00:02:22.995 --> 00:02:24.335
That's pretty nice.

00:02:24.514 --> 00:02:26.756
How's it going, Justin?

00:02:26.776 --> 00:02:27.415
I'm doing well.

00:02:27.496 --> 00:02:28.037
I'm doing well.

00:02:28.076 --> 00:02:28.697
How are you guys?

00:02:29.317 --> 00:02:30.818
The intro is very professional.

00:02:31.177 --> 00:02:31.377
Yeah.

00:02:31.758 --> 00:02:32.777
Love that.

00:02:32.877 --> 00:02:33.377
Very cool.

00:02:34.538 --> 00:02:37.500
The outro is not going to be any better.

00:02:37.539 --> 00:02:38.020
Let's go.

00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:38.620
I mean,

00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.381
I was talking about the intro song.

00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:42.401
The Frosties was a nice touch as well.

00:02:44.502 --> 00:02:44.762
Yeah.

00:02:44.801 --> 00:02:46.703
Pleasure to be here, guys.

00:02:46.742 --> 00:02:46.862
Yeah.

00:02:47.526 --> 00:02:48.287
I'm glad we made this happen.

00:02:48.306 --> 00:02:49.508
We've been, I mean, we've talked about it,

00:02:49.527 --> 00:02:51.209
I think at, uh, Nolan,

00:02:51.248 --> 00:02:54.352
I saw you at consensus this year, right?

00:02:54.372 --> 00:02:57.134
That was this year, I think in Austin.

00:02:58.195 --> 00:02:58.336
Um, yeah,

00:02:58.355 --> 00:02:59.616
it's going back some now it's

00:02:59.657 --> 00:03:01.438
like at the start of the year.

00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:02.819
No, but I think I met you before that too,

00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:04.121
because I think, I think we met some,

00:03:04.161 --> 00:03:05.401
maybe it was consensus even

00:03:05.502 --> 00:03:07.743
in or something too, because I forget,

00:03:08.125 --> 00:03:09.866
I don't mean it launched in April.

00:03:10.407 --> 00:03:10.727
Is that right?

00:03:10.747 --> 00:03:10.866
Yeah.

00:03:10.907 --> 00:03:11.867
We first met in Denver.

00:03:12.551 --> 00:03:13.152
Oh, that's right.

00:03:13.193 --> 00:03:13.733
That's right.

00:03:13.793 --> 00:03:14.933
In February or something like that.

00:03:15.274 --> 00:03:15.433
Yeah.

00:03:15.634 --> 00:03:15.735
Yeah.

00:03:15.854 --> 00:03:18.056
And then also briefly in that consensus.

00:03:18.276 --> 00:03:18.477
Yeah.

00:03:18.637 --> 00:03:18.776
Yeah.

00:03:18.856 --> 00:03:19.918
And when did, when did we start testnet?

00:03:19.937 --> 00:03:22.860
Is that this year still?

00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:24.200
Or is it, that was,

00:03:24.662 --> 00:03:25.361
was that all this year?

00:03:26.703 --> 00:03:28.104
It might've been all this year.

00:03:28.123 --> 00:03:29.145
It might've been end of .

00:03:29.344 --> 00:03:29.604
Wow.

00:03:29.784 --> 00:03:32.407
And then, yeah,

00:03:32.487 --> 00:03:35.270
I think may not follow testnet pretty,

00:03:35.430 --> 00:03:35.990
pretty soon.

00:03:36.050 --> 00:03:36.830
And then, yeah.

00:03:37.715 --> 00:03:38.155
the, the,

00:03:38.175 --> 00:03:39.295
the sort of like real may not

00:03:39.756 --> 00:03:41.016
took a lot longer than expected.

00:03:41.037 --> 00:03:41.176
Right.

00:03:41.197 --> 00:03:42.998
That's right.

00:03:43.139 --> 00:03:44.239
At least, I mean, the chain was moving.

00:03:44.258 --> 00:03:45.219
We had something to build on.

00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:45.460
Right.

00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:46.420
And then,

00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:47.461
and then you guys would build up

00:03:47.480 --> 00:03:48.301
the blocks and we'll talk

00:03:48.322 --> 00:03:50.062
about that a little bit too.

00:03:50.103 --> 00:03:51.484
So yeah, that's cool.

00:03:51.743 --> 00:03:51.963
Well,

00:03:52.024 --> 00:03:53.104
I'm glad that we made this happen

00:03:53.125 --> 00:03:53.625
because I know we were

00:03:53.645 --> 00:03:55.747
talking about it for a bit and, and, uh,

00:03:56.667 --> 00:03:58.068
That's cool.

00:03:58.147 --> 00:04:01.449
What are you doing, dude?

00:04:01.528 --> 00:04:03.110
Are you working on something?

00:04:03.189 --> 00:04:05.070
Are you fixing your SATA notes?

00:04:05.151 --> 00:04:08.771
Are you missing blocks in SATA right now?

00:04:09.233 --> 00:04:10.673
I just want to also observe, again,

00:04:11.052 --> 00:04:11.913
this won't make much sense

00:04:11.954 --> 00:04:14.574
if you're not watching the stream, but

00:04:15.807 --> 00:04:17.288
Null's really washed out.

00:04:17.569 --> 00:04:19.209
The general vibe for the

00:04:19.249 --> 00:04:21.990
cameras on the show is kind

00:04:22.050 --> 00:04:23.949
of like mid-tier webcam,

00:04:24.029 --> 00:04:25.891
a kind of warm orange kind

00:04:25.990 --> 00:04:29.351
of tone to the webcam, slightly fuzzy,

00:04:29.391 --> 00:04:31.091
occasionally, especially in my case,

00:04:31.112 --> 00:04:32.353
occasionally mis-focusing.

00:04:32.913 --> 00:04:33.853
Yusufa looks like he has a

00:04:33.872 --> 00:04:34.872
more expensive webcam.

00:04:35.553 --> 00:04:37.593
Null is like... Okay,

00:04:37.613 --> 00:04:38.834
this is a really specific reference,

00:04:38.875 --> 00:04:40.555
but Null is like the Final

00:04:40.595 --> 00:04:43.415
Cut Pro X filter combat.

00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:45.742
It's washed out.

00:04:45.822 --> 00:04:46.601
It's grainy.

00:04:46.661 --> 00:04:48.504
He's got a buzz cut, basically.

00:04:48.963 --> 00:04:51.605
We're talking like... It's a

00:04:51.644 --> 00:04:55.146
very specific fucking painting.

00:04:55.648 --> 00:04:57.668
The vibe of the way Null is

00:04:57.709 --> 00:04:59.370
framed plus the kind of

00:04:59.410 --> 00:05:00.630
color and lighting of the

00:05:00.690 --> 00:05:02.632
room that he's in is... And

00:05:02.651 --> 00:05:04.632
we go now to a pre-recorded

00:05:04.692 --> 00:05:06.774
video from the shooter.

00:05:06.793 --> 00:05:08.975
There you go.

00:05:08.995 --> 00:05:09.776
Did you add a little red there?

00:05:09.795 --> 00:05:10.036
Yeah.

00:05:12.440 --> 00:05:13.322
Couldn't handle the shade.

00:05:13.442 --> 00:05:15.062
Couldn't handle the shade.

00:05:15.083 --> 00:05:15.843
So now we've gone pink.

00:05:16.182 --> 00:05:17.863
I think you look beautiful.

00:05:18.204 --> 00:05:18.904
The reason I have this

00:05:19.105 --> 00:05:20.105
foo-foo iPhone thing is

00:05:20.146 --> 00:05:21.687
because I got that from you.

00:05:21.706 --> 00:05:22.826
You don't do that anymore.

00:05:22.846 --> 00:05:23.427
You don't have the nice

00:05:23.447 --> 00:05:24.968
bokeh going on and some

00:05:25.009 --> 00:05:26.189
highlights and shit.

00:05:26.228 --> 00:05:26.550
You know...

00:05:28.283 --> 00:05:29.843
I need to work out a better

00:05:29.903 --> 00:05:31.163
mounting mechanism because

00:05:31.244 --> 00:05:33.064
I got sick of duct tape in

00:05:33.103 --> 00:05:34.704
my phone to my monitor.

00:05:36.963 --> 00:05:38.425
It does have a very beautiful picture,

00:05:38.725 --> 00:05:39.845
but it also holds up my

00:05:39.944 --> 00:05:44.545
phone so I can't use it.

00:05:47.245 --> 00:05:49.187
I'm scared that I'm going to

00:05:49.226 --> 00:05:51.367
break my monitor at some

00:05:51.406 --> 00:05:52.247
point because the whole

00:05:52.286 --> 00:05:53.526
screen goes very fucked

00:05:53.567 --> 00:05:56.848
when you're peeling that duct tape off.

00:05:56.887 --> 00:05:57.987
Were you actually duct taping it?

00:05:58.483 --> 00:05:59.444
yeah like straight to the

00:05:59.524 --> 00:06:02.365
fucking screen it's like

00:06:02.386 --> 00:06:04.346
the most australian I don't

00:06:04.367 --> 00:06:05.427
know another way to do it

00:06:06.367 --> 00:06:07.067
they have they have like

00:06:07.468 --> 00:06:08.728
arms and shit just like

00:06:08.749 --> 00:06:09.928
give a bit of stickaroo to

00:06:09.949 --> 00:06:10.949
the croc and then you put

00:06:10.970 --> 00:06:12.129
the croc on the monitor and

00:06:12.149 --> 00:06:13.850
then robert's your father's

00:06:13.891 --> 00:06:16.351
brother I love like the

00:06:16.572 --> 00:06:17.612
only option in your head is

00:06:17.632 --> 00:06:18.552
like duct tape there's like

00:06:19.033 --> 00:06:19.754
there's duct tape and I

00:06:19.774 --> 00:06:20.434
don't know what other the

00:06:20.454 --> 00:06:21.134
fuck I could do with this

00:06:21.274 --> 00:06:22.214
well there was duct tape

00:06:22.235 --> 00:06:23.375
and a big knife on the desk

00:06:23.394 --> 00:06:25.036
and I was like that's the

00:06:25.055 --> 00:06:26.576
solution I can do yeah

00:06:28.153 --> 00:06:28.673
Because, you know,

00:06:28.694 --> 00:06:29.855
we all have duct tapes and

00:06:29.894 --> 00:06:30.875
big knives on the desk.

00:06:31.115 --> 00:06:31.396
We do.

00:06:32.156 --> 00:06:32.276
Well,

00:06:32.317 --> 00:06:33.257
how else are you going to play Knifey

00:06:33.336 --> 00:06:33.617
Spoonie?

00:06:33.716 --> 00:06:35.117
Yeah, look it.

00:06:35.158 --> 00:06:35.879
This is my son's.

00:06:36.778 --> 00:06:38.120
This is a Halloween thing, though,

00:06:38.139 --> 00:06:39.161
because I could actually bend it.

00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:40.201
That's not a knife.

00:06:40.461 --> 00:06:41.682
That's not a knife.

00:06:41.701 --> 00:06:42.463
It's been floating around

00:06:42.483 --> 00:06:43.142
here for like a week.

00:06:43.382 --> 00:06:44.103
See?

00:06:44.124 --> 00:06:45.004
I was like, Jesus Christ,

00:06:45.043 --> 00:06:46.865
why is there a duffel jacket?

00:06:46.886 --> 00:06:47.865
It's just a fidget toy now.

00:06:47.886 --> 00:06:48.927
It's a plastic fidget toy.

00:06:49.615 --> 00:06:50.175
yeah I was gonna say if you

00:06:50.196 --> 00:06:50.855
had like a like a

00:06:50.915 --> 00:06:51.937
leatherman or something

00:06:52.137 --> 00:06:53.937
like you know that's quite

00:06:53.956 --> 00:06:55.838
a normal just corner of the

00:06:55.877 --> 00:06:57.819
desk type thing but jeez

00:06:57.838 --> 00:06:58.778
nothing nothing that goes

00:06:58.819 --> 00:06:59.860
stabby stabby around here

00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:01.240
as soon as you get as soon

00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:02.079
as you get to knuckle

00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:04.680
duster that's like I don't

00:07:04.721 --> 00:07:05.682
or even plastic ones there

00:07:05.721 --> 00:07:06.562
you go right there kind of

00:07:06.661 --> 00:07:07.382
kind of different level

00:07:07.401 --> 00:07:09.562
that one yeah well if kids

00:07:09.603 --> 00:07:10.483
under fifteen man you gotta

00:07:10.502 --> 00:07:11.764
keep that shit out of there

00:07:11.783 --> 00:07:12.803
they'll just try it out like

00:07:14.949 --> 00:07:15.470
how sharp is this?

00:07:15.490 --> 00:07:17.250
Yeah, exactly.

00:07:17.290 --> 00:07:19.574
Like, so those are,

00:07:19.613 --> 00:07:20.533
those are brass knuckles, huh?

00:07:20.574 --> 00:07:21.154
How does that work?

00:07:21.394 --> 00:07:22.036
How's that?

00:07:22.055 --> 00:07:23.117
Well, we punched each other.

00:07:23.536 --> 00:07:25.199
Um, what's the,

00:07:25.218 --> 00:07:28.161
what's the Simpsons one where it's, uh,

00:07:28.521 --> 00:07:29.182
it's, it's, it's,

00:07:29.382 --> 00:07:30.985
they go to boy Scouts and they,

00:07:31.204 --> 00:07:33.067
and Bart's just doing it to get a knife,

00:07:33.166 --> 00:07:34.088
but he's fucking around.

00:07:34.187 --> 00:07:35.108
So he doesn't get the knife.

00:07:35.668 --> 00:07:36.009
And they say,

00:07:36.069 --> 00:07:37.451
you've got to read this knife

00:07:37.471 --> 00:07:38.153
safety book.

00:07:39.334 --> 00:07:40.357
And the time it takes him to

00:07:40.377 --> 00:07:41.718
read the knife safety book goes around.

00:07:41.738 --> 00:07:42.761
He sees all the stuff happening.

00:07:42.781 --> 00:07:44.504
He's like, everywhere I go,

00:07:44.564 --> 00:07:45.545
it seems like people are

00:07:45.565 --> 00:07:47.249
having fun with knives.

00:07:47.269 --> 00:07:47.408
Yeah.

00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:51.461
that is the one where um

00:07:52.062 --> 00:07:53.684
it's not not it's not dr

00:07:53.723 --> 00:07:55.264
nick is it it's hibbert

00:07:55.365 --> 00:07:56.925
like um does like a

00:07:56.966 --> 00:07:58.067
tracheotomy or something

00:07:58.086 --> 00:07:59.088
doesn't he with a pen knife

00:07:59.507 --> 00:08:00.668
and everyone's like yay the

00:08:00.689 --> 00:08:02.271
cheering he's like don't

00:08:02.310 --> 00:08:04.151
cheer me cheer the knife

00:08:08.214 --> 00:08:10.196
oh man that that I reckon is

00:08:10.216 --> 00:08:10.997
going to be the best bit of

00:08:11.016 --> 00:08:12.677
fatherhood is re-watching

00:08:13.098 --> 00:08:14.579
all of the good we started

00:08:14.858 --> 00:08:15.959
simpsons we started

00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:16.920
although I can't convince

00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:18.081
any of my kids that seasons

00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:19.122
three to six are the best

00:08:19.541 --> 00:08:21.062
really yeah it's tough like

00:08:21.083 --> 00:08:22.624
they still like they they

00:08:22.644 --> 00:08:23.444
they watch a couple new

00:08:23.524 --> 00:08:24.285
ones like now let's watch

00:08:24.305 --> 00:08:24.865
the new ones because the

00:08:24.906 --> 00:08:25.745
ones I pull up obviously

00:08:25.766 --> 00:08:26.367
look like shit because

00:08:26.406 --> 00:08:27.887
they're all off like you

00:08:27.908 --> 00:08:29.348
know they're all like early

00:08:29.408 --> 00:08:32.009
nineties but um but yeah

00:08:32.029 --> 00:08:33.311
it's really like we just

00:08:33.350 --> 00:08:34.511
watched like camp crusty a

00:08:34.532 --> 00:08:36.413
couple times we watched uh yeah

00:08:36.831 --> 00:08:38.072
then also like gabbo like

00:08:38.092 --> 00:08:39.013
gabbo's like my favorite

00:08:39.033 --> 00:08:39.993
episode of all time and I

00:08:40.033 --> 00:08:40.953
just can't get them to like

00:08:41.014 --> 00:08:42.514
it it's like disappointing

00:08:42.875 --> 00:08:43.595
everybody has different

00:08:43.615 --> 00:08:44.774
favorite episodes like

00:08:44.794 --> 00:08:45.475
they're like who's luke

00:08:45.515 --> 00:08:46.735
perry I was like well all

00:08:46.755 --> 00:08:49.136
right well at the time at

00:08:49.177 --> 00:08:51.238
the time at the time you

00:08:51.258 --> 00:08:56.360
went through like well at

00:08:56.379 --> 00:08:57.640
the time it was the fashion

00:08:57.660 --> 00:09:00.241
it was the fashion made

00:09:00.261 --> 00:09:01.581
jokes about luke perry my

00:09:01.841 --> 00:09:03.123
face my beautiful face

00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.524
so yeah jasper so just yes

00:09:09.543 --> 00:09:10.065
what's your favorite

00:09:10.085 --> 00:09:12.226
simpsons episode come on

00:09:12.287 --> 00:09:13.788
man put me on the spot huh

00:09:13.808 --> 00:09:17.392
uh I like the movie uh I

00:09:17.471 --> 00:09:21.475
can't name an episode I

00:09:21.515 --> 00:09:23.097
love the game hit and run

00:09:23.839 --> 00:09:24.658
that was a good good

00:09:24.700 --> 00:09:26.120
freaking game do you

00:09:26.140 --> 00:09:27.923
remember the the old arcade game

00:09:29.125 --> 00:09:30.025
Yeah, man.

00:09:30.086 --> 00:09:30.666
I used to play that when I

00:09:30.686 --> 00:09:32.028
was a kid at like... It's

00:09:32.067 --> 00:09:33.589
always at caravan parks and shit.

00:09:33.609 --> 00:09:34.789
I don't know what you call

00:09:34.809 --> 00:09:35.110
them over there.

00:09:35.129 --> 00:09:35.691
Trailer parks?

00:09:36.551 --> 00:09:36.870
Yeah.

00:09:36.910 --> 00:09:39.553
Games room and you go put the money in it.

00:09:39.573 --> 00:09:40.433
That was a four person where

00:09:40.453 --> 00:09:41.174
it was like you walked

00:09:41.195 --> 00:09:42.056
around and it was like...

00:09:42.515 --> 00:09:43.136
It was basically like a

00:09:43.177 --> 00:09:44.898
fight type of game.

00:09:44.937 --> 00:09:45.057
Yeah,

00:09:45.158 --> 00:09:46.558
you just pick up hammers and fucking

00:09:46.599 --> 00:09:48.341
smash people with them.

00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:50.381
Defining Cosmos Memory for

00:09:50.422 --> 00:09:53.804
me is being in a video game

00:09:53.845 --> 00:09:57.748
bar with a bunch of OGs way back and...

00:09:59.225 --> 00:10:00.966
prague maybe I'm playing the

00:10:01.006 --> 00:10:04.830
simpsons game like honestly

00:10:04.850 --> 00:10:06.191
I was with like juno swap

00:10:06.230 --> 00:10:09.234
ben maybe maybe meow maybe

00:10:09.293 --> 00:10:10.794
jake a couple of other

00:10:10.815 --> 00:10:12.916
people that game was just

00:10:12.975 --> 00:10:14.577
endless though after a

00:10:14.618 --> 00:10:15.518
while you were just like

00:10:16.418 --> 00:10:17.879
okay this is obviously a

00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:18.821
court you know one of those

00:10:18.841 --> 00:10:19.360
games where it's just

00:10:19.380 --> 00:10:20.121
designed to suck in your

00:10:20.142 --> 00:10:21.783
quarters endlessly and

00:10:22.644 --> 00:10:23.543
you're already sick of it

00:10:23.563 --> 00:10:24.225
but you're still going

00:10:27.447 --> 00:10:28.889
So yeah, sorry,

00:10:28.928 --> 00:10:30.450
I did not have a better answer.

00:10:33.711 --> 00:10:38.214
There's a little Simpsons challenge here.

00:10:39.095 --> 00:10:40.355
So Jeff,

00:10:40.375 --> 00:10:42.236
maybe I guess we could talk serious.

00:10:43.586 --> 00:10:45.448
Maybe if you want, can you,

00:10:45.749 --> 00:10:46.529
I'm not sure if everyone

00:10:46.570 --> 00:10:49.131
who listens to us knows

00:10:49.631 --> 00:10:50.852
that much about SATA or

00:10:50.873 --> 00:10:51.653
yourself and things like that.

00:10:51.673 --> 00:10:52.335
You want to do a little,

00:10:52.794 --> 00:10:53.615
like just like a little

00:10:53.635 --> 00:10:56.057
background on what we're building and,

00:10:56.958 --> 00:10:58.700
and maybe we could talk, you know,

00:10:58.740 --> 00:10:59.581
we can get into other stuff too,

00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:00.642
but maybe some background would be good.

00:11:01.538 --> 00:11:02.278
Yeah, very gladly.

00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.841
So I joined the space in twenty seventeen,

00:11:07.902 --> 00:11:09.702
started off doing sort of contract work,

00:11:10.023 --> 00:11:12.344
built some NFT stuff back in the day,

00:11:13.044 --> 00:11:14.445
like in twenty seventeen,

00:11:14.465 --> 00:11:15.086
twenty eighteen.

00:11:15.225 --> 00:11:17.667
Like, I guess in today's terms,

00:11:17.787 --> 00:11:18.567
it would have been like a

00:11:19.288 --> 00:11:22.428
play to earn NFT game back then.

00:11:23.230 --> 00:11:24.029
The reason why we were

00:11:24.070 --> 00:11:25.551
building it was because

00:11:26.488 --> 00:11:28.710
uh we were hired by ethereum

00:11:28.730 --> 00:11:29.691
foundation to work on

00:11:30.010 --> 00:11:33.693
plasma um so for all the

00:11:33.734 --> 00:11:36.416
new kids uh like back when

00:11:36.677 --> 00:11:38.177
ethereum did not have any

00:11:38.298 --> 00:11:39.759
use cases on it live yet

00:11:40.259 --> 00:11:41.421
people were already

00:11:41.461 --> 00:11:42.522
concerned with scaling it

00:11:43.461 --> 00:11:44.623
um so people were already

00:11:44.663 --> 00:11:46.065
trying to build l-tooth and

00:11:46.105 --> 00:11:47.385
back then there was no such

00:11:47.446 --> 00:11:49.086
thing as roll-ups uh the

00:11:49.126 --> 00:11:50.008
sort of like leading

00:11:50.187 --> 00:11:51.288
technologies back then were

00:11:51.308 --> 00:11:53.169
like payment channels state channels

00:11:53.990 --> 00:11:56.113
and this hip new thing called Plasma,

00:11:56.913 --> 00:11:57.653
which is making a little

00:11:57.673 --> 00:11:58.693
bit of a comeback with sort

00:11:58.734 --> 00:12:00.174
of like the CK advancements

00:12:00.274 --> 00:12:00.916
that's been happening.

00:12:02.096 --> 00:12:03.096
But yeah,

00:12:03.136 --> 00:12:04.418
so I was working on one of the

00:12:04.437 --> 00:12:08.301
Plasma clients back then

00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.543
because there were no applications.

00:12:11.602 --> 00:12:12.203
As I said,

00:12:12.543 --> 00:12:15.245
there was no use for Ethereum's

00:12:15.285 --> 00:12:16.245
composability yet

00:12:16.326 --> 00:12:17.366
necessarily because people

00:12:17.447 --> 00:12:19.207
weren't sure what they want

00:12:19.227 --> 00:12:21.429
to build or want to use really.

00:12:22.227 --> 00:12:23.467
so there was no concern of

00:12:23.508 --> 00:12:24.548
sort of like fragmentation

00:12:24.869 --> 00:12:26.028
and that sort of shows the

00:12:26.609 --> 00:12:28.328
lack of foresight in sort

00:12:28.349 --> 00:12:29.609
of like the eath roll-up

00:12:29.668 --> 00:12:33.269
scaling idea uh that sort

00:12:33.289 --> 00:12:36.510
of like sustained um anyway

00:12:36.551 --> 00:12:37.510
well one of our products

00:12:37.530 --> 00:12:38.770
was being demoed at eath

00:12:38.791 --> 00:12:41.251
berlin in and met my

00:12:41.292 --> 00:12:43.011
co-founder there peter we

00:12:43.032 --> 00:12:43.812
started building products

00:12:43.831 --> 00:12:45.451
in the space started on the

00:12:45.591 --> 00:12:46.633
sort of like consumer side

00:12:46.653 --> 00:12:47.712
trying to build applications

00:12:48.871 --> 00:12:50.653
kept running into sort of

00:12:50.673 --> 00:12:52.073
like infrastructure that

00:12:52.154 --> 00:12:54.655
was shit that made it so

00:12:54.676 --> 00:12:55.976
that we couldn't build what

00:12:56.017 --> 00:12:56.677
we wanted to build.

00:12:56.837 --> 00:12:58.019
And so we sort of like fell

00:12:58.078 --> 00:12:59.220
down that rabbit hole

00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.341
trying to basically build

00:13:02.402 --> 00:13:03.582
better infra so that we

00:13:03.602 --> 00:13:04.043
could build the

00:13:04.062 --> 00:13:05.163
applications that we wanted

00:13:06.705 --> 00:13:08.505
and ended up stumbling on

00:13:08.605 --> 00:13:10.067
this huge problem called

00:13:10.126 --> 00:13:10.947
the Oracle problem.

00:13:11.508 --> 00:13:12.808
We built a few Oracle products.

00:13:14.470 --> 00:13:16.131
Oracle's essentially meaning

00:13:17.529 --> 00:13:19.630
getting data that's not on a blockchain,

00:13:19.650 --> 00:13:20.831
on a blockchain in an as

00:13:20.892 --> 00:13:22.591
trustless as possible way.

00:13:25.153 --> 00:13:28.975
And yeah, so we built two Oracle products.

00:13:29.195 --> 00:13:30.335
One of them was a first

00:13:30.375 --> 00:13:32.176
party Oracle under the Flux brand.

00:13:32.836 --> 00:13:35.937
And one of them was a optimistic Oracle,

00:13:36.498 --> 00:13:39.038
similar to UMA, if you guys are familiar,

00:13:39.298 --> 00:13:40.539
or back then it was

00:13:40.580 --> 00:13:42.880
actually based on Augur to

00:13:42.941 --> 00:13:45.341
settle some of our financial markets.

00:13:46.599 --> 00:13:47.578
that we were building at the time.

00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:50.899
And the first party Oracle

00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:51.860
actually really took off.

00:13:52.041 --> 00:13:55.001
So during last sort of like DeFi bull run,

00:13:55.062 --> 00:13:56.022
we were securing almost

00:13:56.081 --> 00:13:56.942
four billion dollars with

00:13:56.981 --> 00:14:00.423
that across a mix of L-ones and L-twos,

00:14:01.203 --> 00:14:02.844
or like kind of L-ones, L-two-ish.

00:14:03.825 --> 00:14:07.186
And we ran into a problem

00:14:07.285 --> 00:14:09.145
where we had sort of like

00:14:09.265 --> 00:14:10.787
issues horizontally scaling

00:14:11.206 --> 00:14:13.768
this data across many different chains.

00:14:14.798 --> 00:14:16.539
And we figured either we

00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:17.980
will become one of the

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.922
other Oracle providers out

00:14:18.961 --> 00:14:19.782
there and we have to hire

00:14:19.922 --> 00:14:21.342
huge PD teams and huge

00:14:21.363 --> 00:14:23.124
integration teams and start

00:14:23.144 --> 00:14:24.625
charging outrageous fees to

00:14:24.705 --> 00:14:26.346
support and prioritize certain networks.

00:14:27.047 --> 00:14:28.268
Or we will try to come up

00:14:28.288 --> 00:14:29.187
with a technical solution

00:14:29.227 --> 00:14:29.828
to this problem.

00:14:31.409 --> 00:14:38.014
Me being cocky, thinking I can solve this,

00:14:38.053 --> 00:14:38.634
no problem.

00:14:39.715 --> 00:14:42.236
We started building what has

00:14:42.256 --> 00:14:43.817
now become SATA, which is sort of like...

00:14:46.038 --> 00:14:47.019
Programmable oracles.

00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:48.860
So allowing people to spin

00:14:48.900 --> 00:14:50.341
up their own data feeds and

00:14:50.461 --> 00:14:52.945
accessing the data from any chain.

00:14:53.144 --> 00:14:54.886
So sort of like infinite

00:14:54.907 --> 00:14:55.826
horizontal scaling,

00:14:57.168 --> 00:14:59.711
infinite possibility for data feeds.

00:15:00.451 --> 00:15:02.153
And for that, we needed our own chain,

00:15:02.354 --> 00:15:03.375
which is how I met you guys.

00:15:04.216 --> 00:15:05.096
So we're building that on

00:15:05.376 --> 00:15:07.678
the Cosmos stack.

00:15:07.698 --> 00:15:08.720
Why did you guys pick the Cosmos stack?

00:15:10.966 --> 00:15:11.506
Good question.

00:15:12.807 --> 00:15:14.148
A lot of people now would

00:15:14.168 --> 00:15:15.889
have probably considered an

00:15:16.009 --> 00:15:16.870
L-two instead.

00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:20.932
We did not, mainly for finality reasons.

00:15:21.591 --> 00:15:22.292
If you're building a

00:15:22.312 --> 00:15:23.592
decentralized Oracle network,

00:15:23.793 --> 00:15:24.773
it's pretty important to

00:15:24.793 --> 00:15:26.894
have fast finality on the data,

00:15:27.254 --> 00:15:29.395
and rollbacks could be quite detrimental.

00:15:31.076 --> 00:15:31.576
Also,

00:15:31.996 --> 00:15:33.518
having a centralized sequencer

00:15:33.717 --> 00:15:35.339
sequence and sort of like

00:15:35.359 --> 00:15:36.879
decide what data hits the

00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:41.241
chain when we felt was not

00:15:41.282 --> 00:15:42.861
necessarily in line with

00:15:42.881 --> 00:15:43.682
what we were trying to build.

00:15:43.702 --> 00:15:45.244
Yeah.

00:15:45.344 --> 00:15:45.884
Any regrets?

00:15:49.706 --> 00:15:52.407
Always, but not for picking Cosmos, no.

00:15:52.427 --> 00:15:57.049
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:57.129 --> 00:15:58.250
I think the main regrets are

00:15:58.289 --> 00:15:59.451
more with like, you know,

00:16:00.851 --> 00:16:03.693
How you... Sorry?

00:16:03.714 --> 00:16:05.615
Validator selection and... No,

00:16:05.755 --> 00:16:07.116
also actually quite happy with that.

00:16:07.537 --> 00:16:09.398
I think if I would do

00:16:09.418 --> 00:16:10.739
something different... Yeah,

00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:11.259
we talked about that.

00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:12.100
We talked about early days

00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:12.760
in the test net.

00:16:12.801 --> 00:16:16.864
Like you guys... Stefan, I think,

00:16:16.884 --> 00:16:17.683
picked a lot of those, right?

00:16:17.725 --> 00:16:18.945
And he did a lot of interviews.

00:16:18.985 --> 00:16:20.245
But when we first got in there,

00:16:20.265 --> 00:16:21.006
because you guys kept it

00:16:21.047 --> 00:16:22.748
pretty quiet on who else was in there.

00:16:22.768 --> 00:16:24.009
And I think we didn't even talk about it.

00:16:24.528 --> 00:16:25.350
I think Noel and I maybe

00:16:25.370 --> 00:16:26.211
knew and maybe Schultz,

00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:27.270
he knew or something like that.

00:16:27.311 --> 00:16:27.432
But...

00:16:28.091 --> 00:16:28.932
uh after we got in there we

00:16:28.951 --> 00:16:29.773
started to realize it was a

00:16:29.812 --> 00:16:31.133
really tight group early on

00:16:31.153 --> 00:16:33.573
it was cool yeah we got

00:16:33.813 --> 00:16:35.695
good advice yeah we found a

00:16:35.715 --> 00:16:36.654
good group of people and

00:16:36.674 --> 00:16:39.096
then sort of like used sort

00:16:39.115 --> 00:16:42.038
of like you guys as alpha

00:16:42.057 --> 00:16:43.177
on like who we should get

00:16:43.217 --> 00:16:44.359
in the set or it was really

00:16:44.418 --> 00:16:45.818
can't miss in the set there

00:16:45.839 --> 00:16:47.100
was it was very little

00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:50.081
drama I think to me yeah I thought like

00:16:51.456 --> 00:16:53.860
upgrades and restarts and this and that.

00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:54.980
There was very little drama

00:16:55.081 --> 00:16:55.600
when it came to

00:16:56.422 --> 00:16:57.624
communication and we needed

00:16:57.644 --> 00:16:58.705
to do something and it got done.

00:16:58.924 --> 00:17:00.145
I thought that actually

00:17:00.166 --> 00:17:02.187
worked really well.

00:17:02.668 --> 00:17:03.509
I think we're going to stir

00:17:03.549 --> 00:17:05.771
some more shit up soon, but it won't be.

00:17:06.051 --> 00:17:07.193
It shouldn't be bad.

00:17:07.798 --> 00:17:08.479
No, that's good.

00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:09.900
No, that's good.

00:17:09.940 --> 00:17:11.921
That means it's progress, right?

00:17:11.941 --> 00:17:12.461
So sure.

00:17:12.781 --> 00:17:15.042
So, so tell me,

00:17:15.063 --> 00:17:16.364
tell us about like programmable oracles.

00:17:16.384 --> 00:17:19.125
Like I know, I, I,

00:17:19.265 --> 00:17:21.247
I know the leading question, but like,

00:17:21.267 --> 00:17:23.948
tell me, explain that to them.

00:17:23.968 --> 00:17:24.788
What that really means.

00:17:25.669 --> 00:17:26.410
Yeah.

00:17:26.450 --> 00:17:27.809
So today,

00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:30.672
if you want an Oracle on your chain, um,

00:17:31.451 --> 00:17:34.173
you have to talk to business people.

00:17:35.035 --> 00:17:36.355
And you'll have to convince

00:17:36.395 --> 00:17:38.175
them to launch their Oracle

00:17:38.455 --> 00:17:39.135
on your network.

00:17:39.757 --> 00:17:42.317
And then if you have more

00:17:42.376 --> 00:17:43.758
exotic wishes for data,

00:17:43.817 --> 00:17:45.238
then they're sort of like standard set.

00:17:45.397 --> 00:17:46.499
You'll have to pay them to

00:17:46.778 --> 00:17:50.299
add those feeds to their, um, yeah,

00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:51.760
to their, to their, uh, offering.

00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:52.800
And.

00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:54.631
That can get really expensive.

00:17:54.810 --> 00:17:55.611
It doesn't scale well.

00:17:55.770 --> 00:17:57.071
And that's where the

00:17:57.112 --> 00:17:58.152
programmability comes in.

00:17:58.172 --> 00:18:00.593
So what we've done is we've

00:18:00.673 --> 00:18:01.894
essentially built these

00:18:01.913 --> 00:18:02.594
things called Oracle

00:18:02.634 --> 00:18:04.474
programs that allow people

00:18:04.555 --> 00:18:06.976
to deploy what is

00:18:06.996 --> 00:18:08.135
essentially a wasn't binary

00:18:08.175 --> 00:18:09.017
for the nerds out there.

00:18:09.076 --> 00:18:10.096
But it's essentially a set

00:18:10.136 --> 00:18:12.157
of instructions that says, hey,

00:18:12.577 --> 00:18:14.439
fetch data from the following places,

00:18:14.618 --> 00:18:16.119
aggregate it in the following way,

00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.101
and then collect all of the

00:18:20.292 --> 00:18:21.614
results of the of the

00:18:21.653 --> 00:18:23.154
queries and aggregate it

00:18:23.174 --> 00:18:26.256
again in in in XYZ way and

00:18:26.336 --> 00:18:27.396
as soon as that lands on

00:18:27.497 --> 00:18:30.278
our network it becomes um

00:18:30.337 --> 00:18:31.278
yeah finalized and from

00:18:31.338 --> 00:18:32.500
there you can prove Oracle

00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:33.740
State on any L one or L two

00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.121
using our our sort of like

00:18:35.141 --> 00:18:36.821
uh yeah interrupt solution

00:18:37.122 --> 00:18:38.942
that that we built which is

00:18:39.103 --> 00:18:40.324
kind of a one-way IBC

00:18:40.344 --> 00:18:42.924
connection um if we want to

00:18:42.944 --> 00:18:45.165
keep it Cosmos termy uh but

00:18:45.226 --> 00:18:46.406
it doesn't require IDC

00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:50.080
And then that programmable side.

00:18:50.141 --> 00:18:50.681
So that is,

00:18:51.622 --> 00:18:54.182
that's the demand side where if

00:18:54.284 --> 00:18:56.964
I want a feed on something, right.

00:18:57.125 --> 00:18:57.965
I like to your point.

00:18:57.986 --> 00:19:00.146
So I could, I'd say, say, I want,

00:19:00.267 --> 00:19:01.488
let's say something that's on chain.

00:19:01.587 --> 00:19:03.709
I want to pull something out of radium.

00:19:04.348 --> 00:19:04.568
Right.

00:19:04.910 --> 00:19:06.109
And I want to the specific

00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:07.050
price pair that I want to

00:19:07.191 --> 00:19:08.932
use in my DAP on a different chain.

00:19:08.971 --> 00:19:09.112
Right.

00:19:09.612 --> 00:19:10.971
And so and so I want to I'm

00:19:10.991 --> 00:19:12.212
going to go grab this price

00:19:12.292 --> 00:19:13.752
pair from Radium from a

00:19:13.792 --> 00:19:14.252
couple of different

00:19:14.292 --> 00:19:15.074
providers that might be

00:19:15.114 --> 00:19:16.634
providing X. I don't want to trust one.

00:19:16.854 --> 00:19:17.034
Right.

00:19:17.413 --> 00:19:18.614
So I'm going to pull those three.

00:19:18.634 --> 00:19:19.734
I want to I'm going to take them all.

00:19:19.755 --> 00:19:21.615
I'm going to divide by Adam

00:19:21.634 --> 00:19:23.036
and divide by three and get an average.

00:19:23.056 --> 00:19:24.435
I want to do this at block speed.

00:19:24.476 --> 00:19:24.635
Right.

00:19:25.036 --> 00:19:26.557
Once every X seconds or

00:19:26.576 --> 00:19:27.317
whatever the hell it is.

00:19:27.576 --> 00:19:27.757
Right.

00:19:29.017 --> 00:19:29.576
And be able to do that.

00:19:29.596 --> 00:19:30.657
So that that's a contract

00:19:30.678 --> 00:19:31.778
that I can write to do that.

00:19:32.018 --> 00:19:32.178
Right.

00:19:33.467 --> 00:19:35.948
We don't call them contracts, but yes,

00:19:36.288 --> 00:19:36.428
yes.

00:19:36.448 --> 00:19:38.469
It's like a, it's a programs.

00:19:39.229 --> 00:19:39.709
It's not a,

00:19:39.828 --> 00:19:41.289
it's not necessarily a smart contract.

00:19:41.349 --> 00:19:41.569
It is,

00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:44.191
it is like a binary that's executed

00:19:44.270 --> 00:19:46.971
by a set of notes.

00:19:47.051 --> 00:19:47.231
Okay.

00:19:47.251 --> 00:19:47.992
All right.

00:19:48.032 --> 00:19:50.192
So that, that part I see what,

00:19:50.314 --> 00:19:51.574
how does the discovery side work?

00:19:51.614 --> 00:19:53.234
Like how, how do, if I want,

00:19:53.295 --> 00:19:54.494
if I want those radium feeds,

00:19:54.954 --> 00:19:55.615
how the hell do I find

00:19:55.635 --> 00:19:56.355
those radium feeds?

00:19:56.615 --> 00:19:56.776
Like,

00:19:57.296 --> 00:19:59.257
like what's the provider side look like?

00:20:00.123 --> 00:20:00.462
Yeah.

00:20:00.623 --> 00:20:02.163
So there is two options.

00:20:02.262 --> 00:20:04.064
You can go public data providers.

00:20:04.324 --> 00:20:06.503
So find some sort of public

00:20:06.644 --> 00:20:08.964
RPC node that has Solana

00:20:08.984 --> 00:20:11.265
coverage and try to use that.

00:20:12.285 --> 00:20:12.325
Or.

00:20:12.384 --> 00:20:12.884
Oh, okay.

00:20:14.425 --> 00:20:14.726
So I could,

00:20:14.806 --> 00:20:15.965
I could just add that as an endpoint.

00:20:16.266 --> 00:20:16.806
Like I don't need to do

00:20:16.826 --> 00:20:17.365
anything with that.

00:20:17.625 --> 00:20:19.185
I can just say, here's radium.

00:20:19.205 --> 00:20:19.846
I'm going to use the,

00:20:20.126 --> 00:20:21.047
I'm going to use a Solana

00:20:21.086 --> 00:20:23.747
public endpoint on main net API or beta,

00:20:23.767 --> 00:20:24.527
whatever the fuck they call it.

00:20:24.968 --> 00:20:25.948
And just add it in and say,

00:20:26.087 --> 00:20:26.728
I just want to pull it from

00:20:26.748 --> 00:20:27.488
the data source.

00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:28.539
Yes,

00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:30.300
that's definitely a way to do it if

00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:31.101
you need to bootstrap.

00:20:33.162 --> 00:20:35.363
If you want a little bit more.

00:20:35.702 --> 00:20:36.403
Yeah, exactly.

00:20:36.723 --> 00:20:37.604
But if you want a little bit

00:20:37.644 --> 00:20:38.545
more reliability,

00:20:38.605 --> 00:20:40.684
we also have this

00:20:40.724 --> 00:20:42.905
possibility for RPC

00:20:43.047 --> 00:20:45.907
providers to provide data

00:20:45.948 --> 00:20:46.748
to SATA directly.

00:20:47.888 --> 00:20:48.848
What they do is essentially

00:20:48.868 --> 00:20:49.729
they open up a portal,

00:20:49.828 --> 00:20:50.630
or we call it proxy,

00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:52.711
which allows the SATA

00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:54.471
network to query their data.

00:20:54.491 --> 00:20:55.451
Right.

00:20:56.666 --> 00:20:57.407
permissionlessly,

00:20:58.128 --> 00:20:59.089
and they would get paid on

00:20:59.130 --> 00:20:59.911
the back end for that.

00:21:00.151 --> 00:21:02.073
So the idea is that some of

00:21:02.093 --> 00:21:04.075
the gas that's used would

00:21:04.096 --> 00:21:06.357
go to the data providers in that case,

00:21:06.397 --> 00:21:06.577
right?

00:21:06.597 --> 00:21:08.480
So if you want to talk about Solana,

00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:09.161
we're working with some of

00:21:09.181 --> 00:21:11.124
the bigger Solana RPC

00:21:11.144 --> 00:21:12.965
providers as well to make sure that,

00:21:13.465 --> 00:21:14.047
for example,

00:21:14.106 --> 00:21:15.929
radium data would be fully accessible.

00:21:16.009 --> 00:21:16.569
I got you.

00:21:16.589 --> 00:21:16.670
Okay.

00:21:16.730 --> 00:21:17.550
And what about off-chain data?

00:21:19.997 --> 00:21:20.696
What if I want to grab

00:21:21.037 --> 00:21:22.538
pricing data from CoinGecko

00:21:22.577 --> 00:21:23.538
or from Binance or

00:21:23.577 --> 00:21:24.238
something else like that?

00:21:24.858 --> 00:21:26.219
Can I, as a provider,

00:21:26.278 --> 00:21:27.298
provide that data on-chain?

00:21:27.898 --> 00:21:28.680
If I have that data?

00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:29.339
You can.

00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:30.200
Yeah.

00:21:30.220 --> 00:21:31.660
Binance actually has public APIs,

00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:33.580
so you can also do that permissionlessly.

00:21:34.641 --> 00:21:36.442
But for some of the more, yeah,

00:21:36.481 --> 00:21:37.001
if you want a little bit

00:21:37.021 --> 00:21:38.082
more sophisticated data,

00:21:38.102 --> 00:21:38.862
we also work with

00:21:38.922 --> 00:21:40.423
professional sort of price feed,

00:21:40.962 --> 00:21:43.203
for example, aggregators.

00:21:43.604 --> 00:21:44.364
I'm sure I can't resell

00:21:44.384 --> 00:21:45.683
those as part of that.

00:21:46.545 --> 00:21:47.845
That seems like jail time.

00:21:47.884 --> 00:21:48.244
Yeah.

00:21:49.855 --> 00:21:50.957
No, you can.

00:21:50.977 --> 00:21:51.136
Can I?

00:21:51.857 --> 00:21:52.739
Yeah, yeah, you can.

00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.101
We have a lot of data providers.

00:21:56.020 --> 00:21:56.922
There's probably some fair

00:21:57.082 --> 00:22:00.384
use ideas there where you

00:22:00.404 --> 00:22:02.146
have to bend it.

00:22:02.267 --> 00:22:04.788
You can't just resell just

00:22:04.868 --> 00:22:07.932
raw Binance data, I believe.

00:22:08.392 --> 00:22:09.992
But if you throw it through

00:22:10.053 --> 00:22:11.535
some sort of aggregation schema,

00:22:11.595 --> 00:22:13.115
then I think it's yours.

00:22:13.215 --> 00:22:13.957
Interesting.

00:22:13.977 --> 00:22:14.317
That's cool.

00:22:15.673 --> 00:22:17.434
That's pretty cool.

00:22:17.454 --> 00:22:18.056
It's a whole business, actually.

00:22:18.076 --> 00:22:18.615
That is a whole business.

00:22:18.635 --> 00:22:19.896
And so that discovery,

00:22:20.637 --> 00:22:21.718
and I think you guys are

00:22:21.738 --> 00:22:22.759
creating like portals or

00:22:22.778 --> 00:22:23.419
something like that to be

00:22:23.439 --> 00:22:25.701
able to allow individuals

00:22:25.760 --> 00:22:26.821
who might create programs

00:22:26.842 --> 00:22:28.682
to go find those types of sources, right?

00:22:28.702 --> 00:22:29.324
Exactly.

00:22:29.683 --> 00:22:31.704
Like if Null and I or Frey

00:22:31.724 --> 00:22:32.586
and I or whatever else are

00:22:32.625 --> 00:22:34.227
providing endpoints for

00:22:34.827 --> 00:22:35.928
base or this or that,

00:22:36.067 --> 00:22:37.509
that there is a way for

00:22:37.548 --> 00:22:38.769
those to be discovered and say, oh,

00:22:39.250 --> 00:22:40.872
Null can provide this at this rate,

00:22:41.392 --> 00:22:41.571
right?

00:22:41.632 --> 00:22:42.532
And it can compete with me

00:22:42.893 --> 00:22:44.815
at that rate minus one type of thing.

00:22:45.615 --> 00:22:46.394
Yep, exactly.

00:22:46.496 --> 00:22:47.756
So there's like a

00:22:47.816 --> 00:22:49.416
essentially docs that allow

00:22:49.436 --> 00:22:50.396
you to query like, Hey,

00:22:50.457 --> 00:22:52.778
we want cross chain data, um,

00:22:52.798 --> 00:22:53.538
for these chains.

00:22:53.578 --> 00:22:54.900
And these are the following providers.

00:22:54.940 --> 00:22:55.920
This is how they're priced.

00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:56.579
This is who they are.

00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:58.040
I got that thing.

00:22:58.201 --> 00:22:58.701
Yeah.

00:22:58.740 --> 00:22:59.182
That's cool.

00:22:59.221 --> 00:22:59.602
So is that,

00:22:59.922 --> 00:23:03.584
and what part of that's live now?

00:23:03.644 --> 00:23:06.884
The docs are not, but there is some, uh,

00:23:06.924 --> 00:23:09.126
some data floating around already, uh,

00:23:09.146 --> 00:23:10.426
during our hackathon, uh,

00:23:10.446 --> 00:23:12.167
that we just hosted with encode club.

00:23:12.228 --> 00:23:12.968
Some of it was used.

00:23:12.988 --> 00:23:13.949
Um,

00:23:14.565 --> 00:23:14.845
Yeah,

00:23:14.865 --> 00:23:16.046
that was actually a pretty wild

00:23:16.086 --> 00:23:16.605
experience.

00:23:16.705 --> 00:23:18.847
So from the very beginning,

00:23:19.067 --> 00:23:20.269
I've been saying that the

00:23:20.308 --> 00:23:21.769
most exciting thing about

00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:23.891
Seda to me is like what use

00:23:23.931 --> 00:23:25.112
cases developers will come

00:23:25.152 --> 00:23:26.212
up with that I can't really

00:23:26.232 --> 00:23:27.613
think of because this

00:23:27.653 --> 00:23:28.634
question you always get right,

00:23:28.653 --> 00:23:30.355
like either on podcasts or investors,

00:23:30.375 --> 00:23:30.895
they're like, oh,

00:23:30.996 --> 00:23:33.497
what use cases are most exciting to you?

00:23:33.517 --> 00:23:34.518
And like the most obvious

00:23:34.678 --> 00:23:36.519
ones at the time would be like, oh,

00:23:36.638 --> 00:23:36.919
you know,

00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.421
price feeds for long tail assets

00:23:39.621 --> 00:23:40.481
on like new L twos.

00:23:42.778 --> 00:23:43.819
But yeah,

00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:45.080
my answer was always like the

00:23:45.101 --> 00:23:46.383
things that devs will build

00:23:46.403 --> 00:23:47.663
that I can't even think of.

00:23:48.403 --> 00:23:49.546
And I always thought that it

00:23:49.566 --> 00:23:51.527
was a little bit of a cop out answer,

00:23:51.688 --> 00:23:53.249
and I felt that it was received that way.

00:23:54.089 --> 00:23:56.612
But it's true, so I'll stick with it.

00:23:57.192 --> 00:23:58.114
And during the hackathon,

00:23:58.134 --> 00:23:58.855
we really saw this.

00:23:58.914 --> 00:24:00.415
We saw people build use

00:24:00.435 --> 00:24:01.817
cases that I could have never thought of.

00:24:02.498 --> 00:24:03.837
I think fifty percent of the

00:24:03.857 --> 00:24:05.179
use cases were actually AI

00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:07.980
use cases where people used, for example,

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.200
chat GPT to X or like they

00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:11.840
use it as a connection for

00:24:11.901 --> 00:24:13.601
smart contracts to fully

00:24:13.641 --> 00:24:15.342
autonomously connect with elements.

00:24:15.981 --> 00:24:17.362
So right now you have all of

00:24:17.382 --> 00:24:18.563
these like agentic

00:24:19.423 --> 00:24:20.624
Twitter bots, et cetera,

00:24:21.084 --> 00:24:22.525
which are usually just a

00:24:22.585 --> 00:24:23.586
private key on a server

00:24:23.665 --> 00:24:24.546
that somebody can turn off.

00:24:24.605 --> 00:24:28.449
And nobody really knows if it's really the,

00:24:28.588 --> 00:24:29.108
uh, the LLM,

00:24:29.229 --> 00:24:30.769
like creating these tweets or

00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:31.851
like doing these things on

00:24:31.911 --> 00:24:33.771
chain where with SATA,

00:24:33.991 --> 00:24:35.573
you can actually do it like provably.

00:24:35.593 --> 00:24:37.554
And I think that is quite

00:24:37.594 --> 00:24:38.615
exciting and something that

00:24:38.654 --> 00:24:40.115
I briefly thought of,

00:24:40.135 --> 00:24:43.198
but I didn't think was so close.

00:24:43.218 --> 00:24:43.938
That's really interesting.

00:24:43.978 --> 00:24:45.739
So, so they're using,

00:24:45.818 --> 00:24:47.200
that's not really the original intent,

00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:47.359
right?

00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:48.320
But basically it's,

00:24:49.820 --> 00:24:50.481
An Oracle, I guess,

00:24:50.501 --> 00:24:53.885
is one version of a program or this,

00:24:53.986 --> 00:24:54.145
I guess,

00:24:54.185 --> 00:24:56.730
say to the Oracle is one version

00:24:56.789 --> 00:24:58.632
of status capability of

00:24:58.731 --> 00:25:01.134
taking and creating a

00:25:01.214 --> 00:25:03.478
provable structure around a

00:25:03.538 --> 00:25:04.638
request and a response.

00:25:04.878 --> 00:25:05.079
Right.

00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:06.340
And so they're applying that

00:25:06.381 --> 00:25:07.502
to AI or they're applying

00:25:07.522 --> 00:25:08.963
that to anything else that needs that.

00:25:09.565 --> 00:25:10.685
provable request response

00:25:10.705 --> 00:25:11.266
type structure at a

00:25:11.306 --> 00:25:12.846
specific time at a specific

00:25:12.886 --> 00:25:13.768
height with a specific

00:25:13.827 --> 00:25:15.209
parameters yada yada right

00:25:15.648 --> 00:25:17.049
exactly so you have a

00:25:17.089 --> 00:25:18.351
certain prompt people can

00:25:18.431 --> 00:25:19.612
buy the prompts when people

00:25:19.632 --> 00:25:20.751
put the prompt marketplace

00:25:20.791 --> 00:25:21.972
for smart contracts yeah

00:25:21.992 --> 00:25:23.094
yeah so that smart contract

00:25:23.114 --> 00:25:24.674
can purchase the rights to

00:25:24.855 --> 00:25:26.336
access a prompt on chain

00:25:26.375 --> 00:25:27.737
for I don't know x amount

00:25:27.757 --> 00:25:30.118
of times I thought it was quite cool um

00:25:30.979 --> 00:25:32.279
I think it's the first sort

00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:33.221
of possibility of like

00:25:33.280 --> 00:25:34.942
truly agentic smart

00:25:34.961 --> 00:25:36.102
contracts that are like fully,

00:25:36.122 --> 00:25:38.423
fully LLM controlled basically, right?

00:25:38.443 --> 00:25:39.744
So one of the things we

00:25:39.765 --> 00:25:40.805
wanted to build is like

00:25:41.546 --> 00:25:43.346
throw some money into one

00:25:43.366 --> 00:25:44.288
of these smart contracts

00:25:44.327 --> 00:25:45.347
that doesn't even have an

00:25:45.448 --> 00:25:47.210
exit hatch and just like

00:25:48.009 --> 00:25:48.871
make it do things.

00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:51.490
And just like, see how well it gets,

00:25:51.530 --> 00:25:53.451
just like allow anybody to ping it,

00:25:53.511 --> 00:25:54.932
to do like, I don't know,

00:25:55.012 --> 00:25:55.952
prompts within certain

00:25:55.992 --> 00:25:57.733
parameters and then see what happens.

00:25:57.753 --> 00:26:00.095
Uh, so yeah, I think, I think we'll,

00:26:00.115 --> 00:26:01.135
we'll see that pretty soon.

00:26:02.296 --> 00:26:03.497
That's I guess randomness

00:26:03.517 --> 00:26:04.576
would be another one of those, right?

00:26:04.596 --> 00:26:05.458
Like anything else that you're,

00:26:05.617 --> 00:26:06.077
that you're.

00:26:07.571 --> 00:26:08.452
guess any any of those types

00:26:08.472 --> 00:26:09.374
of things that would would

00:26:09.473 --> 00:26:11.454
be uh the idea r.i.p noise

00:26:11.615 --> 00:26:12.695
yeah r.i.p noise yeah

00:26:12.717 --> 00:26:16.299
exactly but um any one of

00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.421
those yeah okay that's

00:26:18.441 --> 00:26:19.122
that's pretty interesting

00:26:19.182 --> 00:26:20.643
actually so that yeah I

00:26:20.663 --> 00:26:21.423
guess that kind of opens up

00:26:21.443 --> 00:26:22.664
the market right for for

00:26:22.805 --> 00:26:24.026
what you guys I mean

00:26:24.046 --> 00:26:24.507
knowing that it's a

00:26:24.527 --> 00:26:25.446
different use case I guess

00:26:25.487 --> 00:26:26.688
it's still same use of that

00:26:26.708 --> 00:26:28.670
technology but now that

00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:29.691
probably opens up different

00:26:29.810 --> 00:26:31.311
avenues for you guys to to

00:26:31.352 --> 00:26:31.893
think about right

00:26:32.212 --> 00:26:33.134
in terms of how the oracles

00:26:33.153 --> 00:26:34.974
work given that they're um

00:26:36.195 --> 00:26:36.876
if I've understood

00:26:36.896 --> 00:26:37.717
correctly they're uploaded

00:26:37.777 --> 00:26:40.419
like wasm binaries how are

00:26:40.459 --> 00:26:44.261
the how is the code um how

00:26:44.281 --> 00:26:45.202
do you like guarantee

00:26:45.242 --> 00:26:46.523
determinism in in those

00:26:46.584 --> 00:26:47.484
uploads is it similar to

00:26:47.545 --> 00:26:48.465
like a smart contract

00:26:48.486 --> 00:26:49.506
framework where there's a

00:26:49.645 --> 00:26:51.007
vm with restricted command

00:26:51.028 --> 00:26:52.127
set or something like that

00:26:52.729 --> 00:26:54.569
and very much so is that

00:26:55.070 --> 00:26:56.151
very similar to a smart

00:26:56.191 --> 00:26:57.673
contract vm in practice or

00:26:57.712 --> 00:26:58.613
is it like and how

00:26:59.849 --> 00:27:00.529
I guess, I guess the,

00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:01.871
what's the underlying question here?

00:27:01.891 --> 00:27:02.912
The underlying questions here is,

00:27:02.932 --> 00:27:03.192
I suppose,

00:27:03.211 --> 00:27:04.152
how do you guarantee

00:27:04.172 --> 00:27:06.094
determinisms like a VM type situation?

00:27:06.114 --> 00:27:06.513
I'm guessing.

00:27:06.713 --> 00:27:07.314
Yeah.

00:27:07.413 --> 00:27:07.574
Yeah.

00:27:07.693 --> 00:27:09.394
And then if you wanted to

00:27:09.434 --> 00:27:10.476
like develop your own,

00:27:10.576 --> 00:27:12.297
is it conceptually similar

00:27:12.336 --> 00:27:13.817
for like a developer to like,

00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:16.058
like similar to like,

00:27:16.078 --> 00:27:17.200
if you're going to write a smart contract,

00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:21.001
you write something, compile it.

00:27:21.122 --> 00:27:21.842
Yeah.

00:27:22.222 --> 00:27:23.222
Exactly.

00:27:23.262 --> 00:27:24.384
So the, the,

00:27:25.298 --> 00:27:27.099
The VM is ran by what we

00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:28.180
call overlay nodes,

00:27:28.220 --> 00:27:29.039
which are like query and

00:27:29.059 --> 00:27:30.500
compute nodes that indeed

00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:32.201
are expected to run it in

00:27:32.221 --> 00:27:33.281
this constrained environment.

00:27:35.961 --> 00:27:37.063
I think that a lot of the

00:27:37.163 --> 00:27:38.722
deterministic nature of

00:27:38.762 --> 00:27:40.044
blockchains goes out the

00:27:40.084 --> 00:27:42.084
door as soon as you allow

00:27:42.104 --> 00:27:44.704
them to query arbitrary APIs,

00:27:44.765 --> 00:27:48.787
because if there's a few

00:27:48.826 --> 00:27:49.967
milliseconds difference

00:27:50.027 --> 00:27:51.326
between price feed queries,

00:27:51.346 --> 00:27:52.508
you're going to get different answers.

00:27:53.528 --> 00:27:55.607
um so that's where we the

00:27:55.688 --> 00:27:56.449
aggregation of things

00:27:56.469 --> 00:27:57.229
becomes really important

00:27:57.288 --> 00:27:59.028
right so it is it is a less

00:27:59.068 --> 00:28:01.589
deterministic uh version of

00:28:01.630 --> 00:28:03.589
smart contracts uh simply

00:28:03.609 --> 00:28:05.250
because of you know there's

00:28:05.269 --> 00:28:06.230
some time equation there

00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:07.131
that doesn't really match

00:28:07.250 --> 00:28:08.570
so how does the aggregation

00:28:08.611 --> 00:28:10.131
work is that like uh

00:28:10.431 --> 00:28:11.391
leader-based consensus

00:28:11.431 --> 00:28:12.132
among the nodes or

00:28:12.172 --> 00:28:13.071
something or is it

00:28:13.172 --> 00:28:15.251
aggregation as specified in

00:28:15.291 --> 00:28:16.992
the code at runtime of the

00:28:17.012 --> 00:28:17.972
smart contract collecting

00:28:17.992 --> 00:28:19.512
the data like how does the latter

00:28:21.112 --> 00:28:21.451
Okay.

00:28:21.531 --> 00:28:22.113
Yes.

00:28:22.133 --> 00:28:23.794
So we have like two phases.

00:28:23.874 --> 00:28:24.994
We call them the execution

00:28:25.035 --> 00:28:26.155
phase and the tally phase.

00:28:26.957 --> 00:28:28.939
And in the execution phase,

00:28:29.538 --> 00:28:31.800
like all the nodes that you elect,

00:28:31.901 --> 00:28:32.821
like depending on the

00:28:32.981 --> 00:28:34.303
replication factor for the data.

00:28:34.343 --> 00:28:35.483
So you can elect how many

00:28:35.544 --> 00:28:38.405
notes you want to have run the, uh,

00:28:38.425 --> 00:28:39.007
run the program.

00:28:40.055 --> 00:28:42.396
and they will run it in parallel.

00:28:42.978 --> 00:28:44.239
And then in the tally,

00:28:44.439 --> 00:28:45.519
you sort of like filter out

00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:47.040
outliers or however you

00:28:47.101 --> 00:28:47.781
really wanna deal with the

00:28:47.821 --> 00:28:49.542
data depending on the use case basically,

00:28:49.603 --> 00:28:49.824
right?

00:28:49.844 --> 00:28:50.483
So yeah,

00:28:50.784 --> 00:28:52.385
it is sort of like a two-step process.

00:28:52.865 --> 00:28:55.428
So you have like the replication factor,

00:28:56.323 --> 00:28:57.724
query and execute the data.

00:28:57.905 --> 00:28:59.667
It lands on chain and then

00:28:59.989 --> 00:29:01.131
the tally is executed by

00:29:01.151 --> 00:29:02.894
the SATA validator set.

00:29:02.933 --> 00:29:04.155
So there's determinism, right?

00:29:04.175 --> 00:29:05.217
Because as soon as the

00:29:05.317 --> 00:29:06.538
outcomes of the execution

00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:08.082
phase land on chain,

00:29:08.682 --> 00:29:09.503
after that you get

00:29:09.523 --> 00:29:10.425
deterministic outcomes.

00:29:12.122 --> 00:29:14.104
So the, and that, that executor side,

00:29:14.523 --> 00:29:15.003
you should, I can have,

00:29:15.084 --> 00:29:15.785
I can pick multiple

00:29:15.805 --> 00:29:17.105
different executing nodes

00:29:17.145 --> 00:29:18.006
to be able to run that.

00:29:18.066 --> 00:29:19.207
They all run the same job though.

00:29:19.247 --> 00:29:19.587
Right.

00:29:19.607 --> 00:29:20.567
So like if, if I have,

00:29:20.989 --> 00:29:22.789
so that I might have five

00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:23.589
different data sources,

00:29:23.630 --> 00:29:24.631
I pick three nodes to run

00:29:24.671 --> 00:29:25.372
those data sources.

00:29:25.432 --> 00:29:26.792
I get results back and then

00:29:26.813 --> 00:29:28.733
my tally echo do that work.

00:29:28.773 --> 00:29:29.194
Yep.

00:29:29.234 --> 00:29:29.355
Yep.

00:29:29.375 --> 00:29:30.576
That's definitely one way

00:29:30.596 --> 00:29:31.256
you could program it.

00:29:31.476 --> 00:29:31.596
Yeah.

00:29:31.635 --> 00:29:33.116
However, or however you want to do it.

00:29:33.176 --> 00:29:34.218
Yeah.

00:29:34.258 --> 00:29:35.598
How, how, how do,

00:29:35.919 --> 00:29:37.279
how does it work in terms of like,

00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:39.241
if you're specifying nodes,

00:29:40.652 --> 00:29:41.991
it's a subset of the

00:29:42.011 --> 00:29:42.992
validator set that are

00:29:43.113 --> 00:29:45.733
going to run that code?

00:29:45.913 --> 00:29:48.075
So the end goal is that it

00:29:48.095 --> 00:29:50.315
will be a completely different set.

00:29:50.355 --> 00:29:51.256
The idea is that the

00:29:51.296 --> 00:29:52.875
validator set does the

00:29:52.915 --> 00:29:54.957
tally and does the

00:29:56.136 --> 00:29:57.577
settlement of a lot of these things.

00:29:57.597 --> 00:29:58.978
And staking, slashing,

00:29:59.018 --> 00:30:01.298
et cetera is done on the Cosmos chain.

00:30:02.098 --> 00:30:03.579
The execution side of things

00:30:03.619 --> 00:30:04.599
is actually meant to be

00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:07.201
done by a separate larger set,

00:30:07.280 --> 00:30:08.122
potentially, of nodes.

00:30:09.902 --> 00:30:12.222
Because we don't, yeah,

00:30:12.363 --> 00:30:14.243
we feel like that is

00:30:14.304 --> 00:30:16.786
probably a better outcome eventually.

00:30:17.586 --> 00:30:18.246
But in the beginning,

00:30:18.266 --> 00:30:19.727
we will also probably have

00:30:19.747 --> 00:30:21.327
a sort of like smaller set

00:30:21.387 --> 00:30:22.489
of these execution nodes,

00:30:22.528 --> 00:30:23.588
which probably will have

00:30:23.628 --> 00:30:24.930
very high overlap with our

00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:29.094
So you have effectively a

00:30:29.233 --> 00:30:30.914
superset of nodes that is

00:30:31.175 --> 00:30:34.077
doing the actual computation,

00:30:34.117 --> 00:30:35.138
and then you're using the

00:30:35.159 --> 00:30:37.040
blockchain layer for kind

00:30:37.060 --> 00:30:38.762
of pure settlement, essentially.

00:30:40.044 --> 00:30:41.285
One way to see it... Proofs

00:30:41.325 --> 00:30:42.066
or something like that,

00:30:42.105 --> 00:30:43.988
that you were testing, right?

00:30:44.087 --> 00:30:44.548
Exactly.

00:30:44.627 --> 00:30:47.810
So one way to put it is like, we have a...

00:30:48.951 --> 00:30:49.751
secondary layer,

00:30:49.771 --> 00:30:50.913
the overlay network that

00:30:50.952 --> 00:30:52.614
deals with sort of like non

00:30:52.653 --> 00:30:54.493
deterministic nature, right?

00:30:54.513 --> 00:30:55.674
They quarried like bunch of

00:30:55.694 --> 00:30:56.315
different data.

00:30:56.815 --> 00:30:58.336
But as soon as it lands on chain,

00:30:58.375 --> 00:30:59.215
it's quite important to

00:30:59.236 --> 00:31:00.717
have determinism enter back

00:31:00.757 --> 00:31:01.477
into the mix because

00:31:01.517 --> 00:31:02.217
otherwise you get like

00:31:02.257 --> 00:31:03.198
really strange slicing

00:31:03.218 --> 00:31:04.377
conditions on the on the.

00:31:04.518 --> 00:31:06.118
Yeah, that's what we don't want.

00:31:06.760 --> 00:31:08.301
So that overlay network is

00:31:08.521 --> 00:31:09.423
like what I'm guessing,

00:31:09.462 --> 00:31:12.084
like just a bunch of like

00:31:12.684 --> 00:31:14.566
gossiping agents that are running a VM,

00:31:14.586 --> 00:31:15.287
something like that.

00:31:15.567 --> 00:31:16.247
And they're all,

00:31:16.567 --> 00:31:17.028
they're all just

00:31:17.508 --> 00:31:18.409
aggregating that down and

00:31:18.449 --> 00:31:19.929
then saying to the validator,

00:31:20.849 --> 00:31:22.790
the validates connect to them saying, Hey,

00:31:22.810 --> 00:31:23.692
what's the latest thing?

00:31:23.751 --> 00:31:24.551
What's the latest news?

00:31:24.633 --> 00:31:25.712
And they go, yeah,

00:31:25.732 --> 00:31:26.753
here's what we've heard from the network.

00:31:27.627 --> 00:31:27.968
Yeah,

00:31:27.988 --> 00:31:29.749
so one other way to look at it is

00:31:29.788 --> 00:31:31.808
sort of like intents and solvers, right?

00:31:31.828 --> 00:31:32.690
So you have sort of like the

00:31:32.769 --> 00:31:34.109
intent to have this program

00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:35.170
executed and then you have

00:31:35.190 --> 00:31:36.671
like a solver net on top of it,

00:31:36.691 --> 00:31:37.490
which is like the overlay

00:31:37.510 --> 00:31:38.250
network that actually

00:31:38.270 --> 00:31:39.291
performs the tasks and then

00:31:39.352 --> 00:31:40.531
reports their outcomes back.

00:31:40.571 --> 00:31:41.531
Yeah.

00:31:41.832 --> 00:31:41.912
Well,

00:31:41.932 --> 00:31:43.613
how does the incentivization work for

00:31:43.653 --> 00:31:44.272
those two layers?

00:31:44.292 --> 00:31:45.933
Because they sound like they

00:31:45.953 --> 00:31:47.134
could in theory be quite different,

00:31:47.173 --> 00:31:49.414
but in practice they're, I would guess,

00:31:49.434 --> 00:31:50.714
always going to be validators, right?

00:31:50.755 --> 00:31:51.895
Because they're suddenly

00:31:51.915 --> 00:31:52.556
going to be the validators

00:31:52.576 --> 00:31:53.195
who are making money.

00:31:54.166 --> 00:31:56.567
yeah no so the the fees

00:31:56.587 --> 00:31:57.769
would be split between the

00:31:57.808 --> 00:31:58.868
two layers right so like

00:31:58.950 --> 00:31:59.890
part of the fees would go

00:31:59.950 --> 00:32:01.750
to the uh execution set and

00:32:01.810 --> 00:32:02.852
part of the fees would go

00:32:02.912 --> 00:32:04.451
to so there's like sort of

00:32:04.471 --> 00:32:06.713
like yeah three three three

00:32:06.753 --> 00:32:07.473
stakeholders that need to

00:32:07.493 --> 00:32:08.233
be paid right so you have

00:32:08.253 --> 00:32:09.095
the data providers they

00:32:09.115 --> 00:32:10.335
need to they need they need

00:32:10.355 --> 00:32:11.296
to make money then you have

00:32:11.355 --> 00:32:12.977
the execution notes and

00:32:12.997 --> 00:32:14.698
then you have the validator

00:32:14.738 --> 00:32:15.238
notes and like

00:32:15.837 --> 00:32:16.878
One of the reasons why we're

00:32:16.898 --> 00:32:18.378
probably launching with a

00:32:18.398 --> 00:32:19.640
smaller subset of the

00:32:19.700 --> 00:32:20.960
execution nodes is because

00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:21.941
we don't want to add too

00:32:21.961 --> 00:32:22.820
much complexity there.

00:32:22.861 --> 00:32:24.241
So having overlap between

00:32:24.281 --> 00:32:25.382
the validators makes a ton

00:32:25.402 --> 00:32:25.982
of sense there.

00:32:26.623 --> 00:32:27.303
But in the future,

00:32:27.343 --> 00:32:29.064
we want to open that up to

00:32:29.084 --> 00:32:30.045
a completely green field,

00:32:30.085 --> 00:32:30.904
potentially of hundreds of

00:32:30.944 --> 00:32:32.184
thousands of executor nodes,

00:32:32.865 --> 00:32:34.105
where we only have a

00:32:34.165 --> 00:32:36.708
smaller subset running the Cosmos chain.

00:32:38.327 --> 00:32:39.949
What's the economic model

00:32:39.989 --> 00:32:43.631
for how that all interacts?

00:32:43.730 --> 00:32:44.250
Is it...

00:32:45.583 --> 00:32:48.566
At what point does the

00:32:51.630 --> 00:32:54.733
tokenomics support the

00:32:54.773 --> 00:32:57.797
viability of a standalone

00:32:57.876 --> 00:32:58.657
overlay network?

00:32:58.837 --> 00:32:59.920
I mean, because, yeah,

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:01.682
kind of being facetious here,

00:33:01.701 --> 00:33:02.823
but also I suppose, yeah, real,

00:33:02.843 --> 00:33:03.324
we are like,

00:33:04.770 --> 00:33:06.054
have been in a bear market

00:33:06.094 --> 00:33:07.154
for some time and whatnot.

00:33:07.214 --> 00:33:09.799
And, you know, in Cosmos in particular,

00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:10.780
there's been this kind of

00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:11.843
persistent problem of

00:33:12.324 --> 00:33:13.244
economic incentives

00:33:13.285 --> 00:33:14.647
breaking down for

00:33:14.768 --> 00:33:15.829
infrastructure providers.

00:33:15.970 --> 00:33:17.071
And so there is a kind of,

00:33:18.128 --> 00:33:18.788
there is, I think,

00:33:18.848 --> 00:33:21.611
an ongoing conversation

00:33:22.171 --> 00:33:25.352
about whether fees can ever

00:33:25.471 --> 00:33:26.893
induce the right, sorry,

00:33:27.173 --> 00:33:28.272
fees in that case,

00:33:28.574 --> 00:33:29.894
I kind of really mean gas

00:33:29.913 --> 00:33:31.434
fees and the various derivatives thereof,

00:33:31.694 --> 00:33:33.316
can actually ever really,

00:33:33.955 --> 00:33:34.796
on any network other than

00:33:34.816 --> 00:33:36.537
maybe Ethereum or Bitcoin,

00:33:36.616 --> 00:33:37.877
amount to much for

00:33:38.518 --> 00:33:39.759
infrastructure providers, right?

00:33:40.699 --> 00:33:42.380
So let me answer your

00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:43.400
question with a question.

00:33:45.401 --> 00:33:47.382
Well, first, let me think this through,

00:33:47.422 --> 00:33:47.521
like,

00:33:48.863 --> 00:33:51.223
So, so that my answer to the question,

00:33:51.364 --> 00:33:52.924
my question to your question would be,

00:33:53.986 --> 00:33:57.728
there is examples of very high throughput,

00:33:57.827 --> 00:34:00.048
low gas chains that are now

00:34:00.189 --> 00:34:01.190
starting to generate a lot

00:34:01.210 --> 00:34:02.590
of revenue and that revenue

00:34:02.631 --> 00:34:05.112
does not come from necessarily gas,

00:34:05.751 --> 00:34:07.692
but it comes from something else.

00:34:08.534 --> 00:34:10.474
Uh, and that's something else, uh,

00:34:10.494 --> 00:34:11.434
would be priority fees.

00:34:12.096 --> 00:34:12.356
Right.

00:34:12.396 --> 00:34:13.275
So sort of like, yeah,

00:34:13.356 --> 00:34:14.336
if you look at Solana, like.

00:34:14.989 --> 00:34:15.789
Running a validator would

00:34:15.809 --> 00:34:16.431
have been extremely

00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:18.472
unprofitable until there's

00:34:19.034 --> 00:34:21.817
actually MEV right on these chains.

00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:23.998
So.

00:34:25.641 --> 00:34:26.260
This is something we've

00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:28.202
thought about a lot historically,

00:34:28.224 --> 00:34:29.003
sort of like how do you

00:34:29.043 --> 00:34:29.925
create sort of like

00:34:30.746 --> 00:34:33.668
economic network effects where the.

00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:36.030
Yeah,

00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:37.530
you get sort of like this positive

00:34:37.550 --> 00:34:40.070
feedback loop from valuable traction,

00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:40.811
right?

00:34:40.871 --> 00:34:41.632
Because that's really what

00:34:41.652 --> 00:34:42.211
you want to see.

00:34:43.992 --> 00:34:46.512
And so what we started to do

00:34:46.572 --> 00:34:47.353
pretty early and we're

00:34:47.373 --> 00:34:48.032
working with some pretty

00:34:48.052 --> 00:34:50.434
cool teams on this is think

00:34:50.454 --> 00:34:52.114
about how to auction off

00:34:52.173 --> 00:34:54.434
valuable order flow from

00:34:54.574 --> 00:34:55.635
Oracle specifically.

00:34:56.556 --> 00:34:59.619
and uh sort of like yeah

00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:01.081
capture some of the mev

00:35:01.541 --> 00:35:04.143
that the that those uh

00:35:04.163 --> 00:35:05.523
oracle outputs sort of like

00:35:05.583 --> 00:35:06.864
generate on the destination

00:35:06.885 --> 00:35:08.565
chains so yeah we're

00:35:08.585 --> 00:35:09.387
working with a team called

00:35:09.427 --> 00:35:12.409
fastlane on this where we

00:35:12.429 --> 00:35:13.489
would use something in this

00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:14.751
in the direction of

00:35:14.831 --> 00:35:15.751
application specific

00:35:15.791 --> 00:35:16.972
sequencing where the oracle

00:35:16.992 --> 00:35:18.253
is the application to sort

00:35:18.273 --> 00:35:19.394
of like auction off data

00:35:19.414 --> 00:35:22.197
flow uh for for sort of like valuable uh

00:35:22.797 --> 00:35:25.018
Oracle updates right but in

00:35:25.057 --> 00:35:26.938
the general case in the

00:35:26.978 --> 00:35:28.440
general case MEV doesn't

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.701
apply to Oracle feeds it

00:35:31.782 --> 00:35:33.882
really does well because

00:35:34.182 --> 00:35:34.702
you know there's an

00:35:34.742 --> 00:35:35.742
argument here that says

00:35:35.782 --> 00:35:38.505
that uh if you're a user

00:35:38.565 --> 00:35:40.706
that participates in an

00:35:40.806 --> 00:35:41.885
Oracle workflow where

00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:44.128
there's MEV in it by

00:35:44.188 --> 00:35:45.467
participating and not

00:35:45.628 --> 00:35:46.929
bidding you are having

00:35:47.009 --> 00:35:48.969
excess value extracted from

00:35:49.030 --> 00:35:50.831
your participation by people who

00:35:51.652 --> 00:35:53.233
you know, from your point of view,

00:35:53.534 --> 00:35:56.496
are competitors in the game, right?

00:35:56.757 --> 00:35:58.297
And they are extracting

00:35:58.358 --> 00:36:00.159
excess value by doing any

00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:00.699
number of things,

00:36:00.739 --> 00:36:02.461
including interfering with

00:36:03.846 --> 00:36:04.686
Because they have full,

00:36:04.985 --> 00:36:07.447
potentially full visibility,

00:36:07.487 --> 00:36:09.688
not only of the Oracle flow, sorry,

00:36:09.807 --> 00:36:11.248
of transactions related to

00:36:11.268 --> 00:36:12.128
the Oracle flow, right?

00:36:12.188 --> 00:36:14.708
As well as any contingent transactions.

00:36:15.449 --> 00:36:16.989
And we know at this point

00:36:17.068 --> 00:36:19.690
that maybe less so in some Cosmos chain,

00:36:19.710 --> 00:36:23.391
but in high value networks, shall we say.

00:36:24.251 --> 00:36:24.873
uh,

00:36:24.893 --> 00:36:26.893
there are now quite sophisticated

00:36:27.094 --> 00:36:29.916
automated attack, um, uh,

00:36:29.956 --> 00:36:31.237
vectors that do leverage

00:36:31.277 --> 00:36:32.077
full public data.

00:36:32.257 --> 00:36:32.458
Right.

00:36:32.597 --> 00:36:34.860
And, and, and go far beyond, you know,

00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:35.820
what we were looking at five,

00:36:35.981 --> 00:36:37.461
six years ago where it was like, you know,

00:36:37.621 --> 00:36:39.403
simple sandwich attacks and

00:36:39.443 --> 00:36:40.184
things like that, you know,

00:36:40.204 --> 00:36:41.445
to flash loans to blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:36:41.505 --> 00:36:41.664
blah.

00:36:41.684 --> 00:36:42.545
There's like, you know,

00:36:42.945 --> 00:36:44.166
and that's all bots, you know,

00:36:44.327 --> 00:36:45.367
so much of that is bots.

00:36:46.028 --> 00:36:47.190
So this will be bots.

00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:48.510
So there's a kind of,

00:36:48.650 --> 00:36:49.271
there's a kind of open

00:36:49.311 --> 00:36:50.612
question there of like, you know, what,

00:36:50.652 --> 00:36:51.353
what,

00:36:52.907 --> 00:36:55.789
Is your average user going to,

00:36:56.369 --> 00:36:59.150
like MEV always has this tension, right?

00:36:59.170 --> 00:36:59.972
The average user can get

00:37:00.032 --> 00:37:03.112
wrecked by the presence of MEV, right?

00:37:03.313 --> 00:37:08.496
Because MEV can't provably, it doesn't,

00:37:10.628 --> 00:37:10.807
Fuck.

00:37:10.827 --> 00:37:12.208
MEV is a complicated subject, actually.

00:37:12.228 --> 00:37:12.929
Definitely.

00:37:14.150 --> 00:37:15.989
It's analogs in traditional

00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:17.771
order book flow are

00:37:17.811 --> 00:37:19.610
obviously there for a reason,

00:37:19.650 --> 00:37:20.771
but they also... The

00:37:20.811 --> 00:37:22.311
equivalent of order book

00:37:22.391 --> 00:37:24.753
flow does not really exist

00:37:24.813 --> 00:37:25.592
in systems that are

00:37:25.652 --> 00:37:27.673
expected to handle payments.

00:37:28.293 --> 00:37:29.695
So there's a difference between...

00:37:30.655 --> 00:37:32.117
stock order book flow right

00:37:32.177 --> 00:37:33.617
which is relevant to say

00:37:33.677 --> 00:37:36.581
like a dex versus anything

00:37:36.621 --> 00:37:38.021
you expect to ultimately be

00:37:38.081 --> 00:37:39.903
settled as if it was a

00:37:39.943 --> 00:37:40.824
payment or a credit

00:37:41.606 --> 00:37:44.068
issuance which and this you

00:37:44.088 --> 00:37:44.869
know this may be a

00:37:44.909 --> 00:37:46.010
fundamental problem of

00:37:46.050 --> 00:37:47.331
cryptocurrencies that we

00:37:47.351 --> 00:37:48.311
treat them interchangeably

00:37:48.331 --> 00:37:49.813
as a payment mechanism a

00:37:49.914 --> 00:37:51.514
store of value and also as

00:37:51.534 --> 00:37:53.217
some kind of credit thing

00:37:53.237 --> 00:37:54.177
that's like a stock or

00:37:54.197 --> 00:37:54.838
something like that

00:37:55.844 --> 00:37:58.007
But do you think that, like, how is that,

00:37:58.246 --> 00:37:58.806
is there any kind of

00:37:58.827 --> 00:37:59.708
accounting for that in the

00:37:59.728 --> 00:38:02.068
way that you've architected for, like,

00:38:02.550 --> 00:38:03.911
these flows, how they interact?

00:38:03.951 --> 00:38:04.690
Because everything's, you know,

00:38:04.731 --> 00:38:05.572
everything's public, right?

00:38:05.592 --> 00:38:06.813
From the point of view of

00:38:06.833 --> 00:38:07.893
the interacting users,

00:38:08.074 --> 00:38:09.594
where the feeds are going, et cetera,

00:38:09.614 --> 00:38:10.735
et cetera, et cetera.

00:38:10.755 --> 00:38:11.235
For sure.

00:38:11.335 --> 00:38:12.536
So, yeah, it's public.

00:38:13.157 --> 00:38:15.298
But the idea of what we're

00:38:15.318 --> 00:38:16.079
working on with these,

00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:16.860
with sort of like

00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:17.701
application-specific

00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.262
sequencing is that the

00:38:19.342 --> 00:38:20.963
right to publish the data

00:38:21.677 --> 00:38:22.438
will not always be

00:38:22.478 --> 00:38:24.099
permissionless for all applications.

00:38:24.661 --> 00:38:26.302
So if you have high value

00:38:26.342 --> 00:38:27.782
applications that generate

00:38:27.822 --> 00:38:29.224
high value Oracle flow,

00:38:30.085 --> 00:38:31.346
you can essentially auction

00:38:31.425 --> 00:38:32.806
off the rights to bundle

00:38:33.047 --> 00:38:36.090
your math bundles with the

00:38:36.269 --> 00:38:37.130
Oracle update directly.

00:38:37.411 --> 00:38:39.353
If it has if there's like a

00:38:40.048 --> 00:38:40.628
You know,

00:38:40.648 --> 00:38:42.110
there is a pre-Oracle update

00:38:42.130 --> 00:38:43.530
state and a post-Oracle update state.

00:38:43.550 --> 00:38:44.331
And if you know that in the

00:38:44.391 --> 00:38:46.233
post-Oracle update state,

00:38:46.313 --> 00:38:47.793
there is value to be extracted,

00:38:48.355 --> 00:38:49.856
that value makes sense to

00:38:49.876 --> 00:38:50.675
be auctioned off.

00:38:50.896 --> 00:38:51.757
And some of it should go

00:38:51.797 --> 00:38:53.277
back to the application and

00:38:53.297 --> 00:38:54.259
in return to the user.

00:38:54.659 --> 00:38:55.500
And some of it should be

00:38:55.539 --> 00:38:56.561
internalized by the Oracle.

00:38:57.081 --> 00:38:58.262
And that is sort of like

00:38:58.282 --> 00:38:58.661
this whole

00:38:58.702 --> 00:39:00.083
application-specific sequencing

00:39:00.103 --> 00:39:01.063
that we're working on with

00:39:01.543 --> 00:39:02.545
the Fastlane team.

00:39:05.045 --> 00:39:06.588
Yeah, does that answer the question?

00:39:08.208 --> 00:39:08.608
Yeah, I think so.

00:39:10.315 --> 00:39:12.097
Yeah, it's a, it's definitely,

00:39:12.496 --> 00:39:14.177
this is all very sort of

00:39:14.217 --> 00:39:17.639
like new stuff that people

00:39:17.739 --> 00:39:19.340
have been thinking about for a long time.

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:20.681
We've not seen it in the wild much.

00:39:21.481 --> 00:39:22.581
Um,

00:39:22.601 --> 00:39:23.782
there's a ton of these like OEV

00:39:23.822 --> 00:39:25.864
projects coming out and, uh,

00:39:25.903 --> 00:39:28.465
I think it is a good way to

00:39:28.606 --> 00:39:33.588
sort of like get more sustainable, uh,

00:39:33.728 --> 00:39:36.048
and sort of like a different form of, uh,

00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:36.909
uh,

00:39:38.958 --> 00:39:39.199
Yeah,

00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.621
like like I don't know revenue for

00:39:41.661 --> 00:39:44.403
for for for middleware actually.

00:39:44.983 --> 00:39:46.485
And yeah,

00:39:46.505 --> 00:39:47.766
then there's there's a few other ways,

00:39:47.847 --> 00:39:48.086
right?

00:39:48.106 --> 00:39:49.447
So first you have like gas

00:39:49.467 --> 00:39:50.568
fees and the more demand

00:39:50.608 --> 00:39:54.193
for the data that will scale up arguably.

00:39:55.137 --> 00:39:55.697
Historically,

00:39:55.737 --> 00:39:57.177
that hasn't been too

00:39:57.237 --> 00:39:59.139
interesting on many Cosmos chains.

00:39:59.619 --> 00:40:01.141
So we're looking for other venues as well.

00:40:01.181 --> 00:40:01.340
Right.

00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:02.922
So if you look at, say,

00:40:02.942 --> 00:40:03.682
that sort of like a two

00:40:03.842 --> 00:40:04.782
sided marketplace where you

00:40:04.802 --> 00:40:05.744
have data providers and

00:40:05.764 --> 00:40:06.684
they have data consumers,

00:40:06.744 --> 00:40:08.164
there's like multiple

00:40:08.204 --> 00:40:09.425
levers you can pull in

00:40:09.465 --> 00:40:11.788
order to try and like

00:40:12.628 --> 00:40:13.728
extract more revenue from it.

00:40:13.768 --> 00:40:14.809
Like another way to do it would be.

00:40:15.902 --> 00:40:17.001
to take a few basis points

00:40:17.141 --> 00:40:19.742
off of the data providers

00:40:19.802 --> 00:40:21.362
as a side of things, right?

00:40:21.382 --> 00:40:22.204
So data providers,

00:40:22.244 --> 00:40:23.103
if they earn a lot of money

00:40:23.123 --> 00:40:23.764
through the network,

00:40:24.083 --> 00:40:24.923
maybe a percentage of that

00:40:24.963 --> 00:40:26.025
goes back to the validators.

00:40:26.925 --> 00:40:29.304
Then if the order flow is

00:40:29.565 --> 00:40:30.445
specifically valuable,

00:40:30.525 --> 00:40:31.465
so it's used in like

00:40:31.505 --> 00:40:34.766
lending protocols and perps, for example,

00:40:34.847 --> 00:40:36.347
where there is a ton of

00:40:36.367 --> 00:40:37.286
value to be extracted,

00:40:37.407 --> 00:40:39.027
then that's where we'll see revenue.

00:40:40.007 --> 00:40:41.367
And if it's just a bunch of

00:40:41.427 --> 00:40:44.068
super long tail data that I don't know,

00:40:44.108 --> 00:40:44.268
like,

00:40:45.153 --> 00:40:47.835
is on like ten thousand chains,

00:40:48.275 --> 00:40:50.016
then that will also earn revenue.

00:40:50.036 --> 00:40:51.476
So I think as long as you

00:40:51.496 --> 00:40:53.077
have like many paths to

00:40:53.217 --> 00:40:54.297
create sustainable revenue,

00:40:54.338 --> 00:40:55.318
like that's very important.

00:40:56.438 --> 00:40:58.699
But yeah, I agree that just saying gas,

00:40:59.501 --> 00:41:02.382
gas fees is probably not the way today.

00:41:02.481 --> 00:41:03.822
Right.

00:41:04.282 --> 00:41:05.704
Is my Oracle feeds public?

00:41:05.744 --> 00:41:07.304
Is that right?

00:41:07.324 --> 00:41:09.125
The results of my is that public?

00:41:09.204 --> 00:41:10.106
Is that available if it's

00:41:10.126 --> 00:41:11.505
discovered or no?

00:41:12.306 --> 00:41:12.387
No.

00:41:14.166 --> 00:41:16.967
No, it can only be queried by our network.

00:41:17.827 --> 00:41:19.668
So if you look at what the

00:41:19.847 --> 00:41:21.228
portal or the proxy does,

00:41:21.869 --> 00:41:22.829
it essentially checks

00:41:22.949 --> 00:41:24.570
inbound requests to see if

00:41:24.630 --> 00:41:25.809
the requester was actually

00:41:25.889 --> 00:41:27.271
elected to query that data.

00:41:27.811 --> 00:41:28.951
So it will only be

00:41:29.311 --> 00:41:33.793
publicized to people that paid for it.

00:41:34.715 --> 00:41:35.117
Okay.

00:41:35.157 --> 00:41:35.697
All right.

00:41:35.757 --> 00:41:35.896
Okay.

00:41:36.157 --> 00:41:36.498
So there's no,

00:41:36.518 --> 00:41:37.418
there's no piggybacking on

00:41:37.438 --> 00:41:38.559
that or anything else associated.

00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:40.461
Like we're, I can see what you're,

00:41:40.621 --> 00:41:41.583
what data you're using to

00:41:41.623 --> 00:41:43.204
be able to make decisions, you know,

00:41:43.224 --> 00:41:44.385
at the same time you are right.

00:41:44.445 --> 00:41:44.967
Like those.

00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:50.012
In theory, there might be some,

00:41:50.072 --> 00:41:51.313
but I think that that would

00:41:51.393 --> 00:41:53.155
be so complicated that it

00:41:53.195 --> 00:41:53.936
defeats the purpose.

00:41:54.255 --> 00:41:54.817
Okay.

00:41:54.876 --> 00:41:55.016
Okay.

00:41:57.577 --> 00:41:58.697
unless it's like extremely

00:41:58.737 --> 00:41:59.539
high value data.

00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:01.221
And if we get to that point,

00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:02.862
I'm very happy to come up

00:42:02.882 --> 00:42:04.443
with some other solution.

00:42:05.724 --> 00:42:06.905
At that point, we can think about,

00:42:07.085 --> 00:42:09.708
I don't know, some cool privacy use cases,

00:42:09.728 --> 00:42:10.750
but that's a good problem to have.

00:42:11.057 --> 00:42:11.538
Yeah, I mean,

00:42:11.557 --> 00:42:12.219
then you could have the same

00:42:12.259 --> 00:42:14.601
feed being hopefully paid

00:42:14.641 --> 00:42:17.603
for by multiple different buyers, right?

00:42:17.902 --> 00:42:18.202
Exactly.

00:42:18.242 --> 00:42:19.143
Where you're basically

00:42:19.164 --> 00:42:20.063
creating a feed market

00:42:20.324 --> 00:42:21.726
where I might publish

00:42:21.746 --> 00:42:22.465
something that I want

00:42:22.565 --> 00:42:23.726
others to be able to,

00:42:23.887 --> 00:42:25.487
that others might be interested in,

00:42:25.967 --> 00:42:26.849
right?

00:42:27.088 --> 00:42:27.909
It might be cheaper for them

00:42:27.949 --> 00:42:28.931
to be able to piggyback on

00:42:28.990 --> 00:42:29.490
something that I'm

00:42:29.510 --> 00:42:31.512
providing versus everybody

00:42:31.572 --> 00:42:33.293
re-querying the same shit over and over,

00:42:33.954 --> 00:42:34.735
which is basically what

00:42:34.755 --> 00:42:35.954
happens on every other Oracle today.

00:42:36.775 --> 00:42:37.876
That's a market.

00:42:37.936 --> 00:42:38.077
Yeah.

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.224
Alright, so afraid didn't you?

00:42:42.244 --> 00:42:43.507
Did you get to that question answered?

00:42:43.527 --> 00:42:43.807
You didn't?

00:42:44.188 --> 00:42:44.509
Did you?

00:42:44.909 --> 00:42:45.931
Were you poking for a hole

00:42:45.952 --> 00:42:46.512
there or something?

00:42:48.018 --> 00:42:48.998
You just don't believe in gas,

00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:50.300
I think is the thing.

00:42:51.021 --> 00:42:53.143
Obviously, I don't believe in gas.

00:42:55.025 --> 00:42:55.644
It's a weird thing, though,

00:42:55.664 --> 00:42:58.088
because in this situation,

00:42:58.307 --> 00:42:59.568
if I'm running this query,

00:42:59.889 --> 00:43:01.311
I'm generating gas on every

00:43:01.331 --> 00:43:03.833
single block over and over

00:43:03.853 --> 00:43:04.534
and over and over.

00:43:04.634 --> 00:43:06.775
I'm constantly paying you for updates,

00:43:07.255 --> 00:43:07.916
which is very different

00:43:07.936 --> 00:43:09.237
than traditional...

00:43:10.478 --> 00:43:12.581
applications where me as a user, I might,

00:43:12.740 --> 00:43:12.922
you know,

00:43:12.942 --> 00:43:14.523
I'm doing six transactions a month.

00:43:14.543 --> 00:43:15.403
This I'm doing twenty

00:43:15.423 --> 00:43:17.646
transactions in ten seconds.

00:43:17.726 --> 00:43:17.907
Right.

00:43:18.067 --> 00:43:19.208
And for forever.

00:43:19.949 --> 00:43:21.710
So from that perspective,

00:43:22.590 --> 00:43:23.411
for for something that I'm

00:43:23.431 --> 00:43:24.572
consuming is like as like a

00:43:24.612 --> 00:43:25.594
subscription like this

00:43:25.675 --> 00:43:27.376
where that's not the right word,

00:43:27.396 --> 00:43:28.056
but you know what I mean, right?

00:43:28.456 --> 00:43:29.478
where it's something I'm

00:43:29.518 --> 00:43:30.378
constantly querying,

00:43:30.478 --> 00:43:32.322
that argument has a little bit more value,

00:43:32.742 --> 00:43:32.922
right?

00:43:32.943 --> 00:43:34.085
Because that is something

00:43:34.105 --> 00:43:35.907
that I'm actually using,

00:43:36.088 --> 00:43:37.469
not just like one time I'm

00:43:37.510 --> 00:43:40.295
paying four cents to osmosis for a trade.

00:43:41.155 --> 00:43:41.434
Sure.

00:43:41.474 --> 00:43:42.835
It's a little bit closer to

00:43:42.916 --> 00:43:45.217
an on-demand compute kind of model.

00:43:45.757 --> 00:43:47.438
I think the economic

00:43:47.458 --> 00:43:49.179
criticism for gas is pretty

00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:50.041
straightforward.

00:43:50.081 --> 00:43:50.760
Generally speaking,

00:43:51.561 --> 00:43:53.483
it doesn't make a lick of

00:43:53.503 --> 00:43:55.523
sense until it gets out of hand,

00:43:55.643 --> 00:43:56.344
at which point it doesn't

00:43:56.385 --> 00:43:57.164
make a lick of sense.

00:43:57.184 --> 00:43:57.985
The

00:44:00.306 --> 00:44:02.027
the bit in the middle where

00:44:02.188 --> 00:44:04.148
gas is sustainable as an

00:44:04.429 --> 00:44:06.369
incentive mechanism is like

00:44:06.449 --> 00:44:07.570
such a knife edge that it

00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:09.371
defeats the purpose and the

00:44:09.391 --> 00:44:10.331
example that I'm always

00:44:10.472 --> 00:44:12.793
given right whenever I talk

00:44:12.813 --> 00:44:13.954
about gas in any kind of

00:44:13.974 --> 00:44:15.295
meaningful way I'm always

00:44:15.315 --> 00:44:18.195
given the example of IP

00:44:18.215 --> 00:44:20.536
packet routing right which

00:44:20.577 --> 00:44:22.038
is like you know that there

00:44:22.117 --> 00:44:23.659
was a time when people you

00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:25.559
know really and we're talking like

00:44:27.773 --> 00:44:28.954
I was about to say before I was born,

00:44:28.974 --> 00:44:29.773
but it would have been

00:44:29.853 --> 00:44:31.295
about when I was born.

00:44:31.434 --> 00:44:33.135
There were discussions of like, you know,

00:44:33.476 --> 00:44:35.336
with more mass adoption of the internet,

00:44:35.777 --> 00:44:36.518
how are we going to know

00:44:36.538 --> 00:44:38.378
about getting a packet routed,

00:44:38.418 --> 00:44:40.360
like from here to Japan or whatever?

00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:41.800
And the answer was everybody

00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:43.362
just carries everybody else's packets,

00:44:43.422 --> 00:44:43.621
right?

00:44:44.342 --> 00:44:46.202
Marginal cost is zero, treat it as zero,

00:44:46.302 --> 00:44:48.824
carry each other's packets, move on,

00:44:49.585 --> 00:44:50.445
find out a way of making

00:44:50.505 --> 00:44:52.347
money from something else,

00:44:52.427 --> 00:44:53.728
which turns out quite easy,

00:44:53.907 --> 00:44:55.188
quite easy to get a certain grade.

00:44:55.208 --> 00:44:56.009
Yeah, exactly.

00:44:56.228 --> 00:44:57.690
quite easy there's a lovely

00:44:58.070 --> 00:44:59.391
structure there's a lovely

00:44:59.490 --> 00:45:01.952
parallel here between the

00:45:02.032 --> 00:45:03.572
sort of like almost like

00:45:03.592 --> 00:45:04.733
commoditization of packet

00:45:04.773 --> 00:45:05.574
rounding and the

00:45:05.594 --> 00:45:06.614
commoditization of block

00:45:06.655 --> 00:45:09.856
space in the ecosystem like

00:45:10.496 --> 00:45:11.818
I mean and there's also

00:45:12.972 --> 00:45:14.134
when there's also a whole

00:45:14.235 --> 00:45:16.856
conversation about like gas

00:45:16.916 --> 00:45:18.298
is kind of based on this

00:45:18.378 --> 00:45:19.780
idea that we're in a low

00:45:19.820 --> 00:45:21.362
trust environment or

00:45:21.402 --> 00:45:22.342
potentially like some

00:45:22.362 --> 00:45:23.264
people even go as far as to

00:45:23.284 --> 00:45:24.846
say like a zero trust environment.

00:45:25.387 --> 00:45:26.947
And that's just not how blockchains work.

00:45:26.987 --> 00:45:27.648
They, uh,

00:45:31.177 --> 00:45:32.878
Proof of stake blockchains in particular.

00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:34.621
So actually I should roll

00:45:34.661 --> 00:45:36.702
that back and I say proof

00:45:36.722 --> 00:45:37.623
of work is maybe a slightly

00:45:37.663 --> 00:45:38.242
different dog.

00:45:38.342 --> 00:45:40.105
It's possible to run that in

00:45:40.125 --> 00:45:41.646
a provably lower trust environment,

00:45:41.686 --> 00:45:43.186
I think, than the most proof of stake.

00:45:43.246 --> 00:45:44.907
But proof of stake

00:45:44.927 --> 00:45:46.509
blockchains are consortium blockchains.

00:45:48.726 --> 00:45:49.847
One of the only arguments

00:45:49.867 --> 00:45:51.050
that a consortium

00:45:51.070 --> 00:45:51.831
blockchain and a proof of

00:45:51.851 --> 00:45:52.532
state blockchain are

00:45:52.572 --> 00:45:53.974
different is that a

00:45:54.014 --> 00:45:55.635
validator has to be

00:45:55.675 --> 00:45:57.739
permissioned to do a proof

00:45:57.778 --> 00:45:58.780
of authority blockchain or

00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.121
a consortium blockchain, if you like.

00:46:00.782 --> 00:46:01.744
The language is different,

00:46:01.764 --> 00:46:03.186
but they're conceptually the same thing.

00:46:05.521 --> 00:46:06.722
But the reality is most

00:46:07.081 --> 00:46:09.101
validator operators can

00:46:09.182 --> 00:46:11.884
only enter a proof of stake,

00:46:12.423 --> 00:46:14.105
your typical kind of proof of stake chain,

00:46:14.144 --> 00:46:15.224
no matter which ecosystem,

00:46:15.644 --> 00:46:17.206
if there's enough space in the set,

00:46:17.266 --> 00:46:17.485
right?

00:46:18.106 --> 00:46:20.047
And what determines space in the set,

00:46:20.126 --> 00:46:21.728
typically a foundation delegation,

00:46:22.228 --> 00:46:22.987
at which point we are

00:46:23.007 --> 00:46:24.389
really talking about a

00:46:24.429 --> 00:46:26.829
consortium blockchain with other steps,

00:46:27.130 --> 00:46:28.971
right?

00:46:29.271 --> 00:46:29.811
The other prime

00:46:30.670 --> 00:46:32.271
definition where there is

00:46:32.391 --> 00:46:33.152
one of consortium

00:46:33.172 --> 00:46:34.313
blockchains is that the

00:46:34.672 --> 00:46:35.574
validators are chosen at

00:46:35.594 --> 00:46:37.074
genesis right which again

00:46:37.815 --> 00:46:39.936
every blockchain validates

00:46:39.956 --> 00:46:40.936
its validator set at

00:46:40.976 --> 00:46:42.336
genesis I just knocked my

00:46:42.376 --> 00:46:43.418
phone straight on the floor

00:46:43.998 --> 00:46:45.639
all those all those fucking

00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:47.300
months of null taping his

00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:50.481
phone to the to the monitor

00:46:50.661 --> 00:46:51.742
it doesn't knock it on the

00:46:51.762 --> 00:46:52.742
floor I just had mine

00:46:52.782 --> 00:46:54.023
literally on the desk by me

00:46:54.864 --> 00:46:55.684
I just somehow managed to

00:46:55.704 --> 00:46:56.806
knock it fully off anyway.

00:46:57.226 --> 00:46:58.467
But, but like, you know, obviously all,

00:46:58.766 --> 00:47:00.188
all, all projects kind of, you know,

00:47:00.208 --> 00:47:02.150
validate the block, the, the validators,

00:47:02.811 --> 00:47:03.911
validators, weird sentence,

00:47:05.572 --> 00:47:06.994
do some due diligence on

00:47:07.014 --> 00:47:07.855
the validators that are

00:47:07.875 --> 00:47:09.096
going to be included in the Genesis file.

00:47:09.155 --> 00:47:09.335
Right.

00:47:10.016 --> 00:47:10.697
So there's,

00:47:10.717 --> 00:47:11.297
there's this kind of

00:47:11.317 --> 00:47:12.137
interesting tension where

00:47:12.197 --> 00:47:13.039
we sort of all pretend that

00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:14.039
it's super low trust and

00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:16.882
yet it's sort of not right.

00:47:17.262 --> 00:47:18.163
So then again, it's like, well,

00:47:18.202 --> 00:47:19.264
why are we optimizing for

00:47:19.304 --> 00:47:20.525
these incentive systems

00:47:20.585 --> 00:47:22.806
that assume an environment we're not in?

00:47:24.293 --> 00:47:25.213
And the answer is because we don't,

00:47:25.434 --> 00:47:26.134
a hundred percent,

00:47:26.173 --> 00:47:27.074
we haven't really worked

00:47:27.155 --> 00:47:28.836
out how to make a business

00:47:28.876 --> 00:47:31.539
model on some level that

00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:33.460
doesn't rely on that or inflation, right?

00:47:33.481 --> 00:47:34.181
Which is the other day

00:47:34.222 --> 00:47:36.644
secret is that that's kind

00:47:36.664 --> 00:47:37.626
of how everybody makes their money,

00:47:37.646 --> 00:47:37.846
right?

00:47:39.768 --> 00:47:40.688
Although it's not really that much.

00:47:40.728 --> 00:47:42.971
So far in Cosmos, yes.

00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:46.800
I think that is the

00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:48.260
important caveat there.

00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:50.302
I think slowly... And many

00:47:50.342 --> 00:47:52.123
other proof of stake networks.

00:47:54.485 --> 00:47:56.447
The common denominator is

00:47:56.527 --> 00:47:58.668
profitability via emissions.

00:48:00.467 --> 00:48:01.927
Is there a chain where there's not?

00:48:02.827 --> 00:48:04.748
Besides like proof of work chains?

00:48:05.148 --> 00:48:06.210
Is there any proof of stake

00:48:06.230 --> 00:48:07.030
chains where that's

00:48:07.150 --> 00:48:09.992
actually supported fully by

00:48:10.092 --> 00:48:11.612
not inflation?

00:48:12.492 --> 00:48:14.594
No, I don't think not inflation.

00:48:15.376 --> 00:48:16.336
But I think that if you look

00:48:16.376 --> 00:48:18.318
at sort of like the, I mean,

00:48:18.759 --> 00:48:21.039
ETH has been a good example at points,

00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:21.800
I think,

00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:23.581
where there was a substantial

00:48:23.621 --> 00:48:24.762
amount of the sixty percent

00:48:24.943 --> 00:48:26.224
of validated revenue not

00:48:26.264 --> 00:48:27.786
coming from inflation.

00:48:29.206 --> 00:48:31.829
I think Solana has been as

00:48:31.869 --> 00:48:32.849
well during some of the

00:48:32.889 --> 00:48:35.070
more sort of like hypey cycles.

00:48:35.110 --> 00:48:36.793
I think the thing is,

00:48:38.378 --> 00:48:39.679
Yeah, I mean, if we boil it down,

00:48:40.121 --> 00:48:42.242
this seems like it's been a

00:48:42.302 --> 00:48:44.125
problem in Cosmos more than anything.

00:48:44.425 --> 00:48:47.668
It's a user problem.

00:48:47.688 --> 00:48:49.108
People just haven't been able to use it.

00:48:50.090 --> 00:48:51.331
I did just think of one.

00:48:51.652 --> 00:48:55.315
DYDX doesn't rely on inflation.

00:48:55.416 --> 00:48:56.936
It's a hundred percent user fees.

00:48:57.237 --> 00:48:57.617
Good point.

00:48:57.657 --> 00:48:58.978
Do you make any money at DYDX?

00:49:01.782 --> 00:49:02.983
Don't come around here with

00:49:03.003 --> 00:49:03.503
those fucking questions.

00:49:03.523 --> 00:49:04.764
Yeah, guys, come on.

00:49:06.445 --> 00:49:10.248
I lose money in a different way entirely.

00:49:11.068 --> 00:49:12.329
But I guess the interesting question,

00:49:12.369 --> 00:49:12.530
right,

00:49:12.550 --> 00:49:15.911
will be when you look at a network

00:49:15.931 --> 00:49:18.032
like Near or something, and again,

00:49:18.233 --> 00:49:19.494
it has a lot of the same

00:49:19.514 --> 00:49:20.295
teething problems.

00:49:21.396 --> 00:49:24.737
what I guess will be interesting is if,

00:49:24.838 --> 00:49:25.798
and it is a big if,

00:49:25.958 --> 00:49:26.818
whether some of the

00:49:26.838 --> 00:49:27.900
networks that have come out

00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:29.340
more recently that have

00:49:29.501 --> 00:49:30.702
incredibly high throughput,

00:49:32.342 --> 00:49:33.842
and if I may say so, a very,

00:49:33.884 --> 00:49:36.965
very nice consensus design,

00:49:37.045 --> 00:49:38.065
the whole DAG consensus

00:49:38.085 --> 00:49:40.726
thing is very nice, like Sui and Aptos,

00:49:41.047 --> 00:49:43.489
if they actually get a

00:49:43.568 --> 00:49:45.230
Solana-like adoption for

00:49:45.369 --> 00:49:46.590
any of the projects on them,

00:49:46.670 --> 00:49:50.152
and you see a period of huge throughput

00:49:51.396 --> 00:49:52.677
what will happen to fees if

00:49:52.717 --> 00:49:53.418
they're still dog shit?

00:49:53.438 --> 00:49:55.818
That's almost like,

00:49:55.918 --> 00:49:56.998
that'll be the nail in the coffin,

00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.420
like what we did.

00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:01.280
I think a great example of

00:50:01.460 --> 00:50:03.862
this is Hyperliquid, actually.

00:50:04.021 --> 00:50:05.943
Like if you look at sort of like, I mean,

00:50:07.623 --> 00:50:08.423
let's not talk about the

00:50:08.443 --> 00:50:10.364
validator set in this case,

00:50:10.985 --> 00:50:13.146
but the idea of like having

00:50:14.206 --> 00:50:15.507
all the fees generated just

00:50:15.547 --> 00:50:17.407
from activities on a network, right?

00:50:17.447 --> 00:50:18.929
It's all trading fees that go to the,

00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:21.521
validator set, if you will.

00:50:23.902 --> 00:50:25.543
There is a definite path

00:50:25.583 --> 00:50:27.244
there where without inflation,

00:50:27.344 --> 00:50:28.306
it becomes super,

00:50:28.365 --> 00:50:29.367
super profitable if you

00:50:29.407 --> 00:50:32.608
build a decentralized Binance.

00:50:33.268 --> 00:50:34.329
Having a decentralized

00:50:34.349 --> 00:50:35.791
Binance that generates a

00:50:35.851 --> 00:50:38.932
ton of fees and has a validator set,

00:50:39.052 --> 00:50:41.815
I think people would pay a

00:50:41.875 --> 00:50:43.396
significant sum to be one

00:50:43.436 --> 00:50:44.456
of the hyperliquid

00:50:44.476 --> 00:50:46.918
validators today and earn

00:50:46.938 --> 00:50:48.320
those fees on those chains.

00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:49.701
And it would probably be a good business.

00:50:54.099 --> 00:50:55.340
yeah yeah so I mean at the

00:50:55.380 --> 00:50:57.521
moment like basically the

00:50:57.581 --> 00:50:59.364
entire power of that chain

00:50:59.423 --> 00:51:00.485
is with the foundation

00:51:00.565 --> 00:51:02.606
right yeah I mean I don't

00:51:02.626 --> 00:51:04.387
know but that is what

00:51:04.628 --> 00:51:05.929
that's that's what the

00:51:06.048 --> 00:51:07.510
unnamed validators anyway

00:51:07.530 --> 00:51:09.690
there's there's like a

00:51:09.751 --> 00:51:10.831
couple of others in there

00:51:10.851 --> 00:51:11.512
with some very

00:51:11.572 --> 00:51:14.635
insignificant voting powers but uh yeah

00:51:16.340 --> 00:51:18.563
yeah so I mean that's that

00:51:18.583 --> 00:51:19.443
could be a good model if

00:51:19.842 --> 00:51:20.384
that could be a good

00:51:20.423 --> 00:51:22.425
business model anyway if

00:51:22.465 --> 00:51:23.706
they do create a good

00:51:23.746 --> 00:51:25.507
product are people looking

00:51:25.547 --> 00:51:27.088
for decentralization or are

00:51:27.108 --> 00:51:27.708
they looking for a

00:51:27.748 --> 00:51:28.789
blockchain that does what

00:51:28.809 --> 00:51:32.490
they want it to do so well

00:51:32.550 --> 00:51:33.371
if you look at sort of like

00:51:33.391 --> 00:51:36.213
the application no yeah

00:51:36.373 --> 00:51:37.293
that's a whole nother but

00:51:37.313 --> 00:51:38.954
that's a spectrum don't yeah don't

00:51:41.344 --> 00:51:42.204
Back to that question.

00:51:42.244 --> 00:51:44.407
Well, I mean, in decentralization,

00:51:44.447 --> 00:51:45.188
do they want fault

00:51:45.208 --> 00:51:46.650
tolerance or do they want like...

00:51:47.389 --> 00:51:50.289
you know, anons everywhere to operate.

00:51:50.889 --> 00:51:52.670
You know, so many different levels of it.

00:51:52.791 --> 00:51:54.530
And I don't think that necessarily that,

00:51:55.170 --> 00:51:55.431
you know,

00:51:55.530 --> 00:51:57.672
all of them have to be the

00:51:57.711 --> 00:51:59.873
decentralization goddess

00:51:59.913 --> 00:52:01.733
that we all look up to in

00:52:01.833 --> 00:52:02.733
Bitcoin or whatever.

00:52:02.793 --> 00:52:05.393
It's like, I think, you know,

00:52:05.454 --> 00:52:07.114
there's products that do a job.

00:52:07.554 --> 00:52:08.994
And if they do the job with

00:52:09.014 --> 00:52:10.815
a certain amount of, you know,

00:52:10.876 --> 00:52:13.655
fault tolerance and decentralization,

00:52:13.695 --> 00:52:14.876
then that's all they need to do.

00:52:16.268 --> 00:52:17.389
And then people make the choice.

00:52:17.409 --> 00:52:19.269
They say, is this where I want to put my,

00:52:19.690 --> 00:52:20.889
say this whole thing is

00:52:20.929 --> 00:52:23.070
controlled by a group of people,

00:52:23.130 --> 00:52:24.851
but you know,

00:52:24.931 --> 00:52:25.893
a little bit different in

00:52:25.932 --> 00:52:28.373
that it's in some cases,

00:52:28.414 --> 00:52:29.094
a group of people,

00:52:29.114 --> 00:52:30.114
that's not a business that

00:52:30.155 --> 00:52:31.034
I know who they are,

00:52:31.135 --> 00:52:32.315
but in some cases it is.

00:52:32.396 --> 00:52:35.036
So how is that different to

00:52:35.077 --> 00:52:37.277
putting your money into Chase Bank?

00:52:40.170 --> 00:52:42.992
I mean, are you looking for the answer?

00:52:43.032 --> 00:52:44.512
Because I can tell you mathematically,

00:52:45.393 --> 00:52:46.773
endogenously,

00:52:47.195 --> 00:52:48.255
the answer to your question

00:52:48.434 --> 00:52:51.677
is... That's a rhetorical question.

00:52:51.836 --> 00:52:54.557
It's so close to zero that it is zero.

00:52:54.699 --> 00:52:56.018
It is functionally zero,

00:52:56.059 --> 00:52:57.079
but it can't be zero

00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:58.239
because the probability

00:52:59.041 --> 00:53:01.041
must be slightly above zero.

00:53:01.561 --> 00:53:02.503
The probability that you

00:53:02.543 --> 00:53:05.103
won't be owned is the

00:53:05.164 --> 00:53:05.844
answer to your question.

00:53:06.485 --> 00:53:06.664
Owned?

00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:07.858
Well,

00:53:07.898 --> 00:53:10.260
so you asked the question of whether

00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:11.322
it's better to have the

00:53:11.362 --> 00:53:12.902
decentralization goddess or

00:53:13.342 --> 00:53:15.103
a single organization owning your data.

00:53:15.123 --> 00:53:16.385
And I'm telling you,

00:53:16.485 --> 00:53:17.606
once you take time out of

00:53:17.626 --> 00:53:19.688
the equation and you put it

00:53:19.748 --> 00:53:22.769
on an axis where zero won't

00:53:22.849 --> 00:53:23.570
ever be owned in the

00:53:23.590 --> 00:53:24.911
history of the universe and

00:53:25.110 --> 00:53:26.612
one is will be owned.

00:53:26.652 --> 00:53:27.592
Sorry,

00:53:27.632 --> 00:53:29.233
the likelihood of ledger

00:53:29.253 --> 00:53:31.315
immutability is either one or zero,

00:53:31.516 --> 00:53:31.755
right?

00:53:32.416 --> 00:53:35.639
It can't be zero because it can't be zero.

00:53:36.351 --> 00:53:37.632
but it can be fractionally above zero.

00:53:37.891 --> 00:53:38.833
And no matter how

00:53:38.992 --> 00:53:40.432
decentralized you are in

00:53:40.452 --> 00:53:41.673
terms of controlling entities,

00:53:41.713 --> 00:53:43.335
it will always be ever so

00:53:43.355 --> 00:53:44.315
slightly above zero if you

00:53:44.356 --> 00:53:47.577
take time out of the equation.

00:53:47.597 --> 00:53:49.418
Because that's not the

00:53:49.438 --> 00:53:53.721
factor that secures finality.

00:53:54.842 --> 00:53:56.023
What secures finality is

00:53:56.063 --> 00:53:58.824
social consensus over legislation,

00:53:59.585 --> 00:54:00.704
ultimately, and trust,

00:54:01.146 --> 00:54:02.306
which is the same as any

00:54:02.346 --> 00:54:03.427
other credit system, right?

00:54:05.739 --> 00:54:07.139
stock or whatever because

00:54:07.161 --> 00:54:08.581
it's not because regulation

00:54:08.641 --> 00:54:10.101
right is this exogenous

00:54:10.141 --> 00:54:11.442
thing or a government or

00:54:11.722 --> 00:54:13.882
work or taxes taxes right

00:54:14.802 --> 00:54:15.503
money coming into the

00:54:15.523 --> 00:54:16.643
system from some outside

00:54:16.682 --> 00:54:18.003
force like people going to

00:54:18.043 --> 00:54:19.543
work like walking to work

00:54:19.684 --> 00:54:21.025
working coming home having

00:54:21.085 --> 00:54:22.664
made something those are

00:54:22.724 --> 00:54:24.746
all exogenous things that

00:54:24.786 --> 00:54:26.226
affect monetary systems and

00:54:26.266 --> 00:54:27.206
blockchains when they're

00:54:27.226 --> 00:54:28.126
completely endogenous they

00:54:28.146 --> 00:54:31.208
don't have any of that so

00:54:31.307 --> 00:54:32.088
it all it all

00:54:32.108 --> 00:54:33.429
mathematically is just ever

00:54:33.449 --> 00:54:34.608
so slightly above zero

00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:37.659
The reason it doesn't

00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.201
collapse is because

00:54:39.221 --> 00:54:42.804
everybody agrees that it won't collapse.

00:54:42.826 --> 00:54:44.126
Blockchains have priority taxes.

00:54:45.347 --> 00:54:46.530
Yeah, they do.

00:54:46.570 --> 00:54:49.773
Well, MEV now, yeah.

00:54:50.773 --> 00:54:51.054
Yeah.

00:54:51.295 --> 00:54:52.255
Oh, one more point.

00:54:53.643 --> 00:54:54.885
Your question earlier the

00:54:54.925 --> 00:54:57.768
fray was about sort of like

00:54:57.809 --> 00:54:58.489
how to create

00:54:58.530 --> 00:54:59.751
sustainability if you have

00:54:59.791 --> 00:55:00.952
like this giant overlay

00:55:00.992 --> 00:55:02.695
network versus the validator set.

00:55:02.715 --> 00:55:04.757
And that is that we don't

00:55:04.938 --> 00:55:06.619
expect we don't have

00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:08.242
lifeness expectations on

00:55:08.262 --> 00:55:09.643
the overlay network necessarily.

00:55:10.264 --> 00:55:11.706
So you can just shut it off

00:55:12.326 --> 00:55:14.086
if there is no revenue to be made.

00:55:14.347 --> 00:55:15.547
So it's more of a dynamic

00:55:15.608 --> 00:55:17.829
pool that can turn on or turn off.

00:55:17.929 --> 00:55:18.951
It's kind of similar to a

00:55:19.030 --> 00:55:21.512
mesh payment system type design,

00:55:21.592 --> 00:55:22.172
something like that,

00:55:22.213 --> 00:55:24.034
where you put up your node,

00:55:24.153 --> 00:55:25.614
it communicates with the swarm,

00:55:26.255 --> 00:55:27.556
you make transaction fees

00:55:27.576 --> 00:55:29.016
while people are attaching

00:55:29.036 --> 00:55:30.557
to your relayer, and when it's not,

00:55:30.657 --> 00:55:31.217
you turn off.

00:55:31.938 --> 00:55:34.239
It's definitely a way to put it, yeah.

00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:34.780
Yeah, okay.

00:55:35.996 --> 00:55:37.076
loosely familiar kind of

00:55:37.096 --> 00:55:38.077
familiarish with that with

00:55:38.097 --> 00:55:39.376
that kind of design so yeah

00:55:39.577 --> 00:55:45.998
it makes sense for sure all

00:55:46.018 --> 00:55:48.739
I know is I'm happy when uh

00:55:48.759 --> 00:55:49.739
ethereum gas fees are under

00:55:49.759 --> 00:55:51.320
four dollars so I think I'm

00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:52.500
just I'm just beaten down

00:55:52.659 --> 00:55:53.260
dude when I do a

00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:54.239
transaction it's under like

00:55:54.340 --> 00:55:55.800
eight bucks to send a token

00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:57.021
I was like this is great I

00:55:57.061 --> 00:55:58.460
love this blockchain it's

00:55:58.481 --> 00:56:00.722
amazing just broken

00:56:02.514 --> 00:56:02.974
all about setting

00:56:02.994 --> 00:56:04.155
expectations that's all you

00:56:04.195 --> 00:56:05.036
just gotta say you tend to

00:56:05.056 --> 00:56:06.557
do like higher value

00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:08.579
transactions on ethereum

00:56:08.619 --> 00:56:09.519
though right it's not like

00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:10.740
you're you really got you

00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:13.063
really got to mean it yeah

00:56:13.302 --> 00:56:14.364
like I really want to do

00:56:14.384 --> 00:56:15.605
this it's a mempool right

00:56:16.204 --> 00:56:17.326
yeah you really like it's

00:56:17.346 --> 00:56:18.126
like all right it's gonna

00:56:18.146 --> 00:56:19.507
be a grade degeneracy I

00:56:19.547 --> 00:56:22.088
like it happening you

00:56:22.128 --> 00:56:23.150
really gotta mean it you

00:56:23.170 --> 00:56:23.971
can't just flood the

00:56:24.010 --> 00:56:25.211
mempool with like you

00:56:25.251 --> 00:56:26.713
really gotta mean like whatever the hell

00:56:27.672 --> 00:56:28.914
I feel like you get, like,

00:56:29.914 --> 00:56:32.097
hosed a fair bit more in an exchange,

00:56:32.117 --> 00:56:32.356
though.

00:56:32.757 --> 00:56:33.717
Maybe you don't notice it as

00:56:33.757 --> 00:56:34.759
much because it's not as

00:56:35.418 --> 00:56:36.619
transparent without going

00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:37.920
and looking how much it costs you.

00:56:37.940 --> 00:56:38.561
But, like,

00:56:39.141 --> 00:56:40.182
if you're just jumping in there

00:56:40.202 --> 00:56:41.403
to do some transactions

00:56:41.423 --> 00:56:42.204
that are high value and

00:56:42.224 --> 00:56:43.045
then jump back out of it,

00:56:43.065 --> 00:56:44.065
then you've lost a fucking

00:56:44.126 --> 00:56:45.106
fair bit of your money by

00:56:45.126 --> 00:56:46.068
the time you get back out.

00:56:48.329 --> 00:56:49.429
Have you ever noticed that, like,

00:56:49.449 --> 00:56:51.731
in most of the major, what's it called,

00:56:51.751 --> 00:56:54.134
cryptocurrency exchanges, that they,

00:56:54.775 --> 00:56:56.476
if you're in dumbass mode...

00:56:58.307 --> 00:57:01.610
where you just get fucking rinsed.

00:57:01.710 --> 00:57:02.610
Whereas if you just like,

00:57:02.811 --> 00:57:04.032
like Kraken's a prime example.

00:57:04.791 --> 00:57:06.932
If you just go, am I thinking of Kraken?

00:57:06.972 --> 00:57:07.974
I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of Kraken.

00:57:08.494 --> 00:57:09.675
I know this is true of Binance.

00:57:10.835 --> 00:57:11.056
Yeah.

00:57:11.155 --> 00:57:11.956
If you just go,

00:57:12.036 --> 00:57:13.817
if it's just like you have

00:57:13.856 --> 00:57:14.757
like some validation

00:57:14.777 --> 00:57:16.139
rewards or something and you're like, ah,

00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:17.298
fuck, just switch that to that.

00:57:18.393 --> 00:57:19.673
you will get absolutely, you'll be like,

00:57:19.793 --> 00:57:21.255
what the fuck am I getting

00:57:21.275 --> 00:57:22.496
charged a transaction fee?

00:57:22.936 --> 00:57:25.599
You jump over to the pro.

00:57:25.778 --> 00:57:26.599
Pro, yeah.

00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:27.981
Yeah, pro.

00:57:28.001 --> 00:57:28.981
And it'll be like, yeah,

00:57:29.001 --> 00:57:30.043
like three dollars.

00:57:30.103 --> 00:57:33.166
And you're like, wait, what?

00:57:33.465 --> 00:57:34.867
This one was like seventy dollars.

00:57:34.907 --> 00:57:36.068
This was like three dollars.

00:57:36.168 --> 00:57:37.389
Yeah.

00:57:37.409 --> 00:57:38.590
Literally, what is...

00:57:40.150 --> 00:57:41.052
There is no difference in

00:57:41.072 --> 00:57:41.893
the two services being

00:57:41.914 --> 00:57:44.858
provided other than... Another tax one.

00:57:46.501 --> 00:57:48.224
I think the way they do the

00:57:48.284 --> 00:57:48.985
swap is different.

00:57:49.065 --> 00:57:53.371
I think in the pleb mode, I think the...

00:57:54.684 --> 00:57:56.164
the say that in the batter

00:57:56.184 --> 00:57:57.106
at the top it just says

00:57:57.126 --> 00:57:58.806
plug mode on well I think

00:57:58.827 --> 00:57:59.867
they're like swapping out

00:57:59.887 --> 00:58:01.248
their custody tokens and

00:58:01.309 --> 00:58:02.730
then replenishing them on

00:58:02.769 --> 00:58:04.451
the market if that makes

00:58:04.471 --> 00:58:05.251
sense that's probably what

00:58:05.271 --> 00:58:06.431
they're yeah yeah so I

00:58:06.492 --> 00:58:07.393
think they build in a

00:58:07.452 --> 00:58:08.833
margin so they don't get

00:58:08.873 --> 00:58:09.974
rinsed yeah only you get

00:58:10.034 --> 00:58:11.655
rinsed yeah that's a good

00:58:11.695 --> 00:58:12.617
point right they're not

00:58:12.637 --> 00:58:14.018
exactly yeah there's no

00:58:14.057 --> 00:58:14.898
transaction behind that

00:58:14.918 --> 00:58:15.858
thing they're like taking

00:58:15.898 --> 00:58:17.219
that fucking twenty seconds

00:58:17.260 --> 00:58:18.460
of risk so right

00:58:20.481 --> 00:58:21.784
yeah they definitely like

00:58:21.864 --> 00:58:23.447
give you a spread and then

00:58:23.487 --> 00:58:24.469
charge a one percent fee at

00:58:24.509 --> 00:58:25.471
least at least coinbase

00:58:25.510 --> 00:58:28.054
fees like five x I believe

00:58:28.094 --> 00:58:29.538
if you use dummy mode

00:58:29.577 --> 00:58:31.300
versus versus pro mode um

00:58:32.061 --> 00:58:33.764
but if you're like outside of the spread

00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:35.760
If you're doing a swap right

00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:36.882
for a hundred grand on the,

00:58:37.043 --> 00:58:39.885
on fucking dummy mode and you know,

00:58:39.925 --> 00:58:42.228
their little application

00:58:42.427 --> 00:58:43.730
algorithm goes and looks at

00:58:43.769 --> 00:58:45.610
the market depth and it's like, all right,

00:58:45.652 --> 00:58:46.793
so for a hundred grand

00:58:46.833 --> 00:58:48.454
depth at an instant,

00:58:48.534 --> 00:58:50.096
like just hitting the market with it,

00:58:50.155 --> 00:58:51.998
I'm going to get rinsed by fucking, well,

00:58:52.018 --> 00:58:53.199
they're going to charge you

00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:54.561
that plus a margin.

00:58:55.981 --> 00:58:58.764
But if you go and set a limit order in Pro,

00:58:58.784 --> 00:58:59.483
then you're going to do a

00:58:59.503 --> 00:59:01.025
lot better as people eat it

00:59:01.045 --> 00:59:01.824
away over time.

00:59:01.865 --> 00:59:04.027
But it's either an instant swap.

00:59:04.047 --> 00:59:04.706
You go, fuck you.

00:59:05.268 --> 00:59:07.329
Or you take the time risk

00:59:07.349 --> 00:59:08.570
yourself and go over there

00:59:08.590 --> 00:59:11.291
and do the work and keep

00:59:11.331 --> 00:59:11.931
your three bucks.

00:59:12.893 --> 00:59:14.434
Do the work.

00:59:15.253 --> 00:59:17.556
You put a limit order in and

00:59:17.576 --> 00:59:18.516
then it sits there for six

00:59:18.556 --> 00:59:19.637
months like I do.

00:59:21.557 --> 00:59:23.820
Putting in limit orders is like...

00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:26.481
That's bull market behavior

00:59:26.501 --> 00:59:27.862
for people that never learn.

00:59:28.043 --> 00:59:28.983
My ability to pick

00:59:29.384 --> 00:59:30.164
ninety-nine percent of the

00:59:30.184 --> 00:59:31.965
top is like un-fucking-believable, dude.

00:59:31.985 --> 00:59:35.387
It's because you tell me

00:59:35.447 --> 00:59:36.789
what your limit is and then

00:59:36.869 --> 00:59:38.449
I go and set my limit half

00:59:38.510 --> 00:59:41.132
a cent under that.

00:59:41.313 --> 00:59:42.273
You know when Juno

00:59:42.813 --> 00:59:43.894
inexplicably went up the

00:59:43.934 --> 00:59:45.014
other week and I found that

00:59:45.054 --> 00:59:47.097
I had access to some like

00:59:47.938 --> 00:59:50.599
literally before it collapsed.

00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:52.181
So like kind of just maybe

00:59:52.221 --> 00:59:53.782
like a cent or two below the top.

00:59:55.385 --> 00:59:56.985
Market, not limit.

00:59:57.387 --> 00:59:58.567
Market.

00:59:58.606 --> 00:59:59.547
So you crushed the market.

00:59:59.628 --> 01:00:01.068
You crushed it.

01:00:01.809 --> 01:00:02.389
Coincidence?

01:00:02.449 --> 01:00:03.010
I think not.

01:00:03.291 --> 01:00:05.552
Yeah, it's not like whatever it was,

01:00:05.672 --> 01:00:10.936
ten thousand judo or something.

01:00:10.956 --> 01:00:12.677
I actually hit the top and

01:00:12.797 --> 01:00:13.737
it couldn't handle my

01:00:13.838 --> 01:00:15.659
fucking thousand dollars of sell volume.

01:00:15.699 --> 01:00:18.402
Just fully.

01:00:18.422 --> 01:00:20.643
You tanked it.

01:00:21.103 --> 01:00:21.543
It was going.

01:00:24.505 --> 01:00:24.985
No, to be fair,

01:00:25.005 --> 01:00:27.306
I think I actually traded

01:00:27.565 --> 01:00:32.108
on Osmo into Atom, ate a bit of slippage,

01:00:33.387 --> 01:00:34.047
and then traded.

01:00:34.188 --> 01:00:34.849
There's got to be nothing in

01:00:34.869 --> 01:00:36.068
the tanks there, right?

01:00:36.088 --> 01:00:36.708
Juno to Atom?

01:00:36.728 --> 01:00:38.550
There's got to be nothing left.

01:00:38.570 --> 01:00:40.690
I'm a responsible coin trader.

01:00:40.990 --> 01:00:42.371
Juno to Osmo to Atom, maybe?

01:00:42.771 --> 01:00:42.990
Yeah.

01:00:43.512 --> 01:00:45.172
I can't believe anything in those.

01:00:45.192 --> 01:00:46.873
There was enough liquidity

01:00:48.833 --> 01:00:50.414
when the degeneracy was happening.

01:00:50.434 --> 01:00:50.514
Yeah.

01:00:51.632 --> 01:00:52.994
yeah there wouldn't be today

01:00:53.293 --> 01:00:54.715
not to move three thousand

01:00:54.755 --> 01:00:55.914
dollars of juno or whatever

01:00:56.054 --> 01:00:57.815
that is have you heard of

01:00:58.036 --> 01:01:02.079
um calc finance I think you

01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:03.440
told me about that yeah

01:01:03.460 --> 01:01:04.400
it's like you know the

01:01:04.420 --> 01:01:05.920
responsible way to move your shit coins

01:01:07.045 --> 01:01:15.552
Is that the one that does –

01:01:12.510 --> 01:01:13.451
It just like trickles it out.

01:01:13.510 --> 01:01:15.112
It's like it will sell like, you know,

01:01:15.132 --> 01:01:16.793
a hundred every hour or something.

01:01:16.813 --> 01:01:18.956
Either hour or daily kind of averages,

01:01:18.976 --> 01:01:19.356
right?

01:01:19.596 --> 01:01:22.239
Yeah, you can pick a time frame.

01:01:22.338 --> 01:01:23.099
You could put a spread.

01:01:23.139 --> 01:01:24.981
If it drops below ten percent,

01:01:25.021 --> 01:01:26.242
then hold on to it or some shit,

01:01:26.302 --> 01:01:26.762
something like that.

01:01:27.255 --> 01:01:27.536
Yeah,

01:01:27.956 --> 01:01:29.458
but the basic one is just dollar cost

01:01:29.518 --> 01:01:31.298
averaging in or out.

01:01:33.581 --> 01:01:34.041
Yeah.

01:01:34.081 --> 01:01:34.981
But it's like, you know,

01:01:35.061 --> 01:01:36.083
it's far more responsible

01:01:36.103 --> 01:01:36.922
than just smacking the

01:01:36.983 --> 01:01:40.505
fucking pool with your like, you know,

01:01:40.545 --> 01:01:41.507
bag of shit going.

01:01:42.186 --> 01:01:42.487
Oops.

01:01:43.268 --> 01:01:45.670
Oops.

01:01:45.710 --> 01:01:47.231
This is like, no,

01:01:47.271 --> 01:01:49.512
here's eighteen billion hua hua.

01:01:49.672 --> 01:01:50.293
Oops.

01:01:50.673 --> 01:01:51.193
Oops.

01:01:51.273 --> 01:01:51.934
There it goes.

01:01:54.844 --> 01:01:56.425
Yeah, I don't have any Hawawa anymore.

01:01:56.605 --> 01:01:58.545
I got rinsed on that fucking chain.

01:01:58.625 --> 01:01:59.605
All my shit coins are gone.

01:02:00.465 --> 01:02:01.686
It was good for the first weekend though,

01:02:01.726 --> 01:02:02.085
wasn't it?

01:02:02.806 --> 01:02:03.025
Hey.

01:02:03.425 --> 01:02:04.626
You did it right that first weekend,

01:02:04.646 --> 01:02:04.927
didn't you?

01:02:05.847 --> 01:02:07.427
Oh, I'm peak degen mode, yeah.

01:02:08.588 --> 01:02:10.208
Oh, early Chihuahua days were good times.

01:02:10.927 --> 01:02:12.449
Happy days back in the big

01:02:12.489 --> 01:02:14.949
trades on Hawawa.

01:02:15.208 --> 01:02:16.190
Good days of shit coins.

01:02:16.289 --> 01:02:16.570
Hey man,

01:02:16.590 --> 01:02:21.130
but Hawawa swap is just around the corner,

01:02:21.550 --> 01:02:21.751
so...

01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:24.960
Oh, Wawa what?

01:02:24.981 --> 01:02:25.461
Wawa swap.

01:02:26.222 --> 01:02:27.923
What's that?

01:02:28.164 --> 01:02:29.184
It's a meme at this point.

01:02:29.644 --> 01:02:30.885
Oh, okay.

01:02:31.166 --> 01:02:32.246
It's been coming for like

01:02:32.266 --> 01:02:35.909
fucking two years.

01:02:35.969 --> 01:02:36.230
Great news.

01:02:36.250 --> 01:02:37.331
Wawa swap's almost ready.

01:02:37.610 --> 01:02:38.471
Six months later,

01:02:38.731 --> 01:02:40.193
just putting the finishing touches.

01:02:42.474 --> 01:02:43.514
Getting ready for launch.

01:02:44.056 --> 01:02:44.815
I know this is ridiculous

01:02:44.835 --> 01:02:45.577
because there are a lot of

01:02:45.617 --> 01:02:46.737
chains in Cosmos that don't

01:02:46.757 --> 01:02:47.918
have any devs left anymore,

01:02:47.978 --> 01:02:49.840
but are there any devs left on Wawa?

01:02:52.315 --> 01:02:53.195
I do not know.

01:02:53.556 --> 01:02:54.016
I have no idea.

01:02:54.657 --> 01:02:56.257
I would be guessing at best.

01:02:57.177 --> 01:02:59.119
I know there's like some

01:02:59.458 --> 01:03:01.079
words get said in the

01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:02.400
Discord occasionally,

01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:04.501
but I don't know if that

01:03:04.561 --> 01:03:07.802
equals devs on it.

01:03:07.842 --> 01:03:09.641
No clue.

01:03:09.661 --> 01:03:12.583
Probably know that.

01:03:12.684 --> 01:03:13.923
Probably not.

01:03:13.943 --> 01:03:15.244
Presumably Jasper has got

01:03:15.264 --> 01:03:17.525
some devs over there at Cedar.

01:03:17.545 --> 01:03:18.445
They're under chat.

01:03:18.465 --> 01:03:18.545
Yeah.

01:03:19.735 --> 01:03:20.414
They're holding him up.

01:03:20.454 --> 01:03:21.795
For sure.

01:03:22.797 --> 01:03:23.476
I missed that one.

01:03:23.637 --> 01:03:24.458
I remember seeing it.

01:03:24.697 --> 01:03:25.518
Completely missed it.

01:03:27.340 --> 01:03:28.619
Before your time?

01:03:28.681 --> 01:03:30.121
What year did you start

01:03:30.362 --> 01:03:32.342
looking into development in

01:03:32.402 --> 01:03:33.784
the Cosmos ecosystem?

01:03:34.403 --> 01:03:36.065
When did you rear your head?

01:03:38.045 --> 01:03:41.248
I started to very seriously

01:03:41.288 --> 01:03:43.068
consider building SATA on

01:03:43.128 --> 01:03:45.130
Cosmos when the Cosmos

01:03:47.666 --> 01:03:48.786
Oh, okay.

01:03:48.806 --> 01:03:49.047
All right.

01:03:49.067 --> 01:03:49.927
That was controversial.

01:03:51.807 --> 01:03:53.628
Yeah.

01:03:53.668 --> 01:03:54.309
Tell me this.

01:03:54.748 --> 01:03:55.369
Hot take.

01:03:55.889 --> 01:03:58.730
Like how long ago did you

01:03:58.789 --> 01:04:01.371
start doing crypto full time?

01:04:01.751 --> 01:04:03.152
What's your like transition

01:04:03.192 --> 01:04:04.932
story to crypto from your daily?

01:04:05.733 --> 01:04:06.432
That's a good story.

01:04:07.213 --> 01:04:11.195
So I was building another

01:04:11.235 --> 01:04:12.534
company in Web two.

01:04:12.755 --> 01:04:14.096
It was doing data analytics

01:04:15.076 --> 01:04:16.757
and we were building

01:04:17.306 --> 01:04:18.849
sort of like bespoke

01:04:18.889 --> 01:04:20.510
dashboards on Facebook data.

01:04:21.570 --> 01:04:24.653
And after a year or so we

01:04:24.673 --> 01:04:26.215
got acquired by another team.

01:04:27.217 --> 01:04:29.438
And, um,

01:04:29.478 --> 01:04:33.382
so the experience of building on a

01:04:33.422 --> 01:04:36.666
Facebook or like, uh, is quite terrible.

01:04:38.257 --> 01:04:39.657
because they change their

01:04:39.757 --> 01:04:41.599
API access every two weeks.

01:04:41.958 --> 01:04:44.260
So instead of being able to, you know,

01:04:44.481 --> 01:04:44.860
innovate,

01:04:45.061 --> 01:04:46.001
you're constantly running around

01:04:46.041 --> 01:04:46.481
with tape,

01:04:46.501 --> 01:04:48.603
trying to fix the things that

01:04:48.663 --> 01:04:49.724
worked two weeks before.

01:04:50.724 --> 01:04:53.346
And after in total, like one and a half,

01:04:53.385 --> 01:04:54.085
two years of that,

01:04:54.106 --> 01:04:55.666
that got frustrating enough

01:04:55.686 --> 01:04:58.469
for me to be like, Hey guys, hands off.

01:04:58.509 --> 01:05:00.050
And a few months after I

01:05:00.070 --> 01:05:02.751
left Cambridge Analytica came out,

01:05:02.771 --> 01:05:04.052
it's like the news and

01:05:04.972 --> 01:05:05.873
people shut everything down.

01:05:06.793 --> 01:05:07.293
This was around,

01:05:09.096 --> 01:05:10.036
I don't remember exactly when,

01:05:10.076 --> 01:05:11.137
but right after that,

01:05:11.177 --> 01:05:12.996
I started pursuing crypto full time.

01:05:14.117 --> 01:05:15.358
And the reason was because I

01:05:15.438 --> 01:05:18.039
saw smart contracts,

01:05:18.059 --> 01:05:19.818
sort of like immutable API interfaces,

01:05:20.318 --> 01:05:21.760
that if we would have tried

01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:22.460
to build what we were

01:05:22.480 --> 01:05:24.440
trying to build on top of Facebook's API,

01:05:24.579 --> 01:05:26.221
on top of these interfaces,

01:05:27.159 --> 01:05:28.980
I could sort of picture how

01:05:29.019 --> 01:05:30.221
much that would empower developers.

01:05:30.681 --> 01:05:31.641
So I really came into the

01:05:31.661 --> 01:05:32.501
space because I was super

01:05:32.521 --> 01:05:34.103
excited about composability

01:05:34.483 --> 01:05:36.264
of sort of like devs and

01:05:36.403 --> 01:05:38.364
their applications and sort

01:05:38.385 --> 01:05:39.385
of like the permissionless

01:05:39.425 --> 01:05:40.585
and immutable nature of

01:05:40.606 --> 01:05:41.766
these API interfaces.

01:05:42.987 --> 01:05:45.228
And that is also one of the

01:05:45.248 --> 01:05:47.510
reasons why I built Seda is because

01:05:49.431 --> 01:05:50.713
with ethereum fragmentation

01:05:50.753 --> 01:05:51.994
happening it's also one of

01:05:52.014 --> 01:05:53.215
the reasons why we are so

01:05:53.235 --> 01:05:53.835
we haven't really talked

01:05:53.855 --> 01:05:54.755
about this but why we're so

01:05:54.795 --> 01:05:55.416
excited about chain

01:05:55.436 --> 01:05:56.817
abstraction like trying to

01:05:56.836 --> 01:05:57.838
restore some of the

01:05:57.878 --> 01:05:58.958
composability or at least

01:05:58.978 --> 01:05:59.418
the feeling of

01:05:59.478 --> 01:06:00.559
composability and like this

01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:01.740
fragmented environment is

01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:03.242
like quite exciting to me

01:06:03.262 --> 01:06:05.003
because that is what got me

01:06:05.023 --> 01:06:06.103
into the space and what

01:06:06.143 --> 01:06:07.164
kept me excited about it

01:06:07.985 --> 01:06:10.007
and it is very much broken

01:06:10.447 --> 01:06:13.108
in the fragmented l-to

01:06:13.128 --> 01:06:15.951
space and cosmos has some

01:06:17.909 --> 01:06:18.389
tape, right?

01:06:18.429 --> 01:06:18.889
Like with IBC.

01:06:19.409 --> 01:06:21.650
But, uh, I think, yeah, the, the,

01:06:21.690 --> 01:06:22.949
the next frontier of

01:06:23.010 --> 01:06:24.050
applications will be like

01:06:24.190 --> 01:06:26.291
intent based and you,

01:06:26.331 --> 01:06:27.471
they will abstract away

01:06:27.510 --> 01:06:30.192
like all of the cross chain stuff.

01:06:30.291 --> 01:06:30.931
There's a lot of people

01:06:30.972 --> 01:06:32.052
working on chain

01:06:32.092 --> 01:06:33.351
abstraction at the moment, isn't there?

01:06:33.371 --> 01:06:34.393
There's like, well,

01:06:34.413 --> 01:06:35.273
the two that come to mind

01:06:35.293 --> 01:06:38.532
is like you guys and, um, Zion.

01:06:39.353 --> 01:06:42.753
So yeah, Zion, but there is,

01:06:42.793 --> 01:06:43.855
there's definitely more,

01:06:44.054 --> 01:06:46.054
but it is that Omni.

01:06:48.518 --> 01:06:49.481
Omni, yeah.

01:06:49.501 --> 01:06:51.005
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:06:51.105 --> 01:06:51.485
Yeah, no,

01:06:51.525 --> 01:06:53.289
there's a ton of people building

01:06:53.309 --> 01:06:53.891
into Vertical now.

01:06:55.456 --> 01:07:05.199
I see your logo a lot when

01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:06.701
people do a Medium or a

01:07:06.740 --> 01:07:09.121
blog or something about another chain.

01:07:09.222 --> 01:07:10.842
I see you guys and Zion pop

01:07:10.902 --> 01:07:12.284
up all the time as working

01:07:12.324 --> 01:07:14.565
with those other ecosystems.

01:07:16.184 --> 01:07:17.905
I guess that particular

01:07:17.965 --> 01:07:19.666
subject does take a lot of...

01:07:20.507 --> 01:07:21.927
um collaboration across

01:07:22.367 --> 01:07:23.949
different egos different

01:07:24.108 --> 01:07:25.489
ideas to be able to make it

01:07:25.528 --> 01:07:27.590
work in the end and having

01:07:27.610 --> 01:07:29.351
a single standard to access

01:07:30.431 --> 01:07:31.891
data that all comes from

01:07:31.932 --> 01:07:32.853
the same sort of source so

01:07:32.873 --> 01:07:34.094
it gets like data entropy

01:07:34.114 --> 01:07:35.994
across all different chains

01:07:36.034 --> 01:07:36.755
it's like extremely

01:07:36.815 --> 01:07:38.416
powerful within within sort

01:07:38.436 --> 01:07:39.016
of like this chain

01:07:39.036 --> 01:07:39.896
abstracted fragmented

01:07:39.956 --> 01:07:41.777
ecosystem so that is that

01:07:41.836 --> 01:07:43.318
is why we fit in pretty well

01:07:44.050 --> 01:07:46.271
Imagine the first crypto ISO standard.

01:07:46.291 --> 01:07:49.213
Who's going to write that?

01:07:50.233 --> 01:07:50.474
No,

01:07:50.494 --> 01:07:53.175
that already is distributed ledger ISO

01:07:53.215 --> 01:07:53.614
standard.

01:07:54.655 --> 01:07:54.976
Is there?

01:07:55.255 --> 01:07:55.856
Oh, my bad.

01:07:56.536 --> 01:07:57.896
No, to be fair, this is vocabulary.

01:07:58.396 --> 01:07:59.318
There isn't standard because

01:07:59.518 --> 01:08:00.338
standard for what, right?

01:08:02.289 --> 01:08:03.251
So, Jasper,

01:08:03.271 --> 01:08:05.172
it sounds like actually your

01:08:06.273 --> 01:08:07.853
story into coming into

01:08:07.893 --> 01:08:09.235
crypto is quite different

01:08:09.295 --> 01:08:12.438
to what a lot of people's usually is.

01:08:12.478 --> 01:08:14.960
Like, I think the standard story is... Oh,

01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:16.201
I mean, listen,

01:08:16.381 --> 01:08:17.622
I also bought shitcoins in

01:08:17.641 --> 01:08:19.122
twenty sixteen and saw them

01:08:19.302 --> 01:08:20.144
go up like crazy.

01:08:22.364 --> 01:08:23.006
Here we go.

01:08:23.046 --> 01:08:23.286
No, no, no.

01:08:23.326 --> 01:08:23.905
We're all wondering.

01:08:23.926 --> 01:08:25.847
There's the real story.

01:08:25.887 --> 01:08:26.948
So what I mean is...

01:08:27.569 --> 01:08:30.729
What I mean is that like for a lot of us,

01:08:30.770 --> 01:08:31.409
me included,

01:08:31.449 --> 01:08:32.730
it's like it begins with a

01:08:32.810 --> 01:08:36.572
dabble and it becomes a side hustle.

01:08:37.212 --> 01:08:38.412
And then at some point you

01:08:38.453 --> 01:08:39.412
have to make a choice

01:08:39.453 --> 01:08:42.394
between dumping your daily

01:08:42.453 --> 01:08:44.494
job to becoming like a

01:08:44.534 --> 01:08:46.996
full-time crypto participant.

01:08:47.576 --> 01:08:48.655
But it sounds like you were

01:08:49.456 --> 01:08:50.396
in a completely different

01:08:50.436 --> 01:08:51.697
position where you were like, well,

01:08:51.716 --> 01:08:53.018
this other thing's done now.

01:08:53.778 --> 01:08:55.278
I want to do this other thing,

01:08:55.297 --> 01:08:56.559
which sounds much better.

01:08:56.658 --> 01:08:56.819
Yeah.

01:08:57.158 --> 01:08:57.958
Yeah, I mean so.

01:08:57.979 --> 01:09:01.239
So I was very crypto curious if you will,

01:09:01.260 --> 01:09:02.480
but I and as a as a

01:09:02.541 --> 01:09:03.820
programmer like I felt like

01:09:03.841 --> 01:09:05.221
I had an edge and was it.

01:09:07.042 --> 01:09:08.563
And it was it was really early, right?

01:09:08.603 --> 01:09:10.042
Like I probably one of the

01:09:10.323 --> 01:09:12.363
earlier Solidity devs that

01:09:12.384 --> 01:09:13.783
were out there like.

01:09:13.804 --> 01:09:15.125
Like full time like there

01:09:15.145 --> 01:09:16.125
weren't that many of us,

01:09:16.725 --> 01:09:18.206
so there was like I felt

01:09:18.225 --> 01:09:21.067
like I was early and I had

01:09:21.087 --> 01:09:22.367
an edge back then as a

01:09:22.426 --> 01:09:24.427
programmer to like try and

01:09:24.467 --> 01:09:25.488
learn more about this and.

01:09:26.817 --> 01:09:30.002
through my previous endeavors,

01:09:30.261 --> 01:09:31.304
I got an opportunity to

01:09:32.506 --> 01:09:35.289
teach myself how to write

01:09:35.310 --> 01:09:37.434
Solidity and then fell into

01:09:37.474 --> 01:09:38.375
the hole from there.

01:09:39.724 --> 01:09:40.465
but yeah, so, so,

01:09:40.564 --> 01:09:43.027
so came for the initial

01:09:43.067 --> 01:09:44.287
like fucking red coin or

01:09:44.328 --> 01:09:45.207
whatever the fuck I bought

01:09:45.247 --> 01:09:48.010
in and that went up like X

01:09:48.029 --> 01:09:49.110
and I felt like a genius

01:09:49.171 --> 01:09:50.131
and then stuck around

01:09:50.192 --> 01:09:52.274
because I'm an investor.

01:09:54.795 --> 01:09:55.676
I'm going to be a billionaire.

01:09:55.695 --> 01:09:55.975
Yeah.

01:09:56.976 --> 01:09:57.237
Well,

01:09:57.256 --> 01:09:58.557
those conversations were had when I

01:09:58.578 --> 01:10:01.940
was like fucking it went this high.

01:10:02.001 --> 01:10:03.221
It could clearly go higher.

01:10:04.122 --> 01:10:04.262
Yeah.

01:10:04.342 --> 01:10:06.283
It's a, it's funny here in Australia,

01:10:06.344 --> 01:10:08.405
like in the hype cycles, you,

01:10:09.206 --> 01:10:11.306
there's like construction's

01:10:11.346 --> 01:10:12.266
pretty big here and like

01:10:12.287 --> 01:10:14.387
construction and mining and

01:10:15.048 --> 01:10:15.809
uh there's like all these

01:10:15.849 --> 01:10:18.609
people who you know drive

01:10:19.371 --> 01:10:20.730
excavators and this type of

01:10:20.751 --> 01:10:21.532
stuff and they've all got

01:10:21.551 --> 01:10:22.692
these little side hustles

01:10:22.731 --> 01:10:23.592
and a lot of it is crypto

01:10:23.712 --> 01:10:25.753
right um like these these

01:10:25.793 --> 01:10:26.673
kinds of operators and

01:10:26.694 --> 01:10:27.935
stuff a lot of times like

01:10:27.975 --> 01:10:29.756
you know you sit in a cabin doing nothing

01:10:30.523 --> 01:10:31.943
for a fair while, like during the day,

01:10:31.962 --> 01:10:32.403
you might be just,

01:10:32.863 --> 01:10:34.003
especially if you're a crane driver,

01:10:34.024 --> 01:10:34.823
you might just be sitting

01:10:34.844 --> 01:10:35.944
there fucking waiting for

01:10:35.963 --> 01:10:37.104
like five hours for someone

01:10:37.125 --> 01:10:38.064
to rig something up,

01:10:38.085 --> 01:10:38.864
but you have to sit in the

01:10:38.885 --> 01:10:40.524
machine so that we're in there like,

01:10:40.545 --> 01:10:41.706
you know, on Binance or whatever.

01:10:42.326 --> 01:10:43.466
And then every now and then

01:10:43.485 --> 01:10:45.225
you'll get like one of

01:10:45.265 --> 01:10:48.207
these dudes and they're like, fuck this,

01:10:48.266 --> 01:10:51.807
I'm leaving, I'm leaving construction.

01:10:51.868 --> 01:10:53.068
I've made twenty grand in a

01:10:53.108 --> 01:10:54.068
week in crypto.

01:10:54.127 --> 01:10:56.488
And then, you know, those never end well.

01:10:57.149 --> 01:10:58.851
Then like fucking two months later,

01:10:58.872 --> 01:11:03.377
they're like back looking for their job.

01:11:03.417 --> 01:11:04.578
Maybe I wasn't an investment

01:11:04.618 --> 01:11:05.541
genius after all.

01:11:05.581 --> 01:11:07.623
Maybe I was just buying in a bull market.

01:11:08.104 --> 01:11:08.645
That's funny.

01:11:08.664 --> 01:11:09.045
Yeah.

01:11:09.605 --> 01:11:09.765
Yeah.

01:11:09.786 --> 01:11:10.988
I had a,

01:11:11.007 --> 01:11:12.250
I've met multiple people like that.

01:11:12.270 --> 01:11:12.310
Um,

01:11:13.644 --> 01:11:15.185
as well, like in the early crypto days,

01:11:15.845 --> 01:11:17.908
I don't have many success stories there,

01:11:18.768 --> 01:11:19.309
to be honest.

01:11:19.488 --> 01:11:21.930
Yeah, I know more people that got wrecked,

01:11:21.990 --> 01:11:23.693
I think, than made it.

01:11:23.733 --> 01:11:25.194
Well, that's how it works.

01:11:25.835 --> 01:11:26.274
I guess to be fair,

01:11:26.295 --> 01:11:27.636
there's quite a few Atom

01:11:27.655 --> 01:11:30.337
OGs or Cosmos OGs who have

01:11:30.358 --> 01:11:32.260
done okay for themselves financially.

01:11:33.981 --> 01:11:35.983
But a lot of people... I

01:11:36.002 --> 01:11:37.203
have a particularly dark

01:11:37.283 --> 01:11:38.284
one where somebody I knew

01:11:38.305 --> 01:11:39.525
from my local tech scene was...

01:11:40.822 --> 01:11:41.703
early on bitcoin and

01:11:41.762 --> 01:11:43.684
actually who I got my first

01:11:43.724 --> 01:11:45.164
bitcoin from way back in

01:11:45.185 --> 01:11:47.126
there like twenty a year

01:11:47.166 --> 01:11:48.326
twenty eleven twenty twelve

01:11:48.345 --> 01:11:48.966
something like that this

01:11:48.987 --> 01:11:51.847
man gave you a bitcoin no I

01:11:51.868 --> 01:11:53.048
did some I just have a

01:11:53.069 --> 01:11:54.529
bitcoin I've told this

01:11:54.550 --> 01:11:56.610
story before you you get

01:11:56.631 --> 01:11:58.152
some bitcoin and I did some

01:11:58.171 --> 01:11:59.033
I did some work for them

01:11:59.052 --> 01:11:59.953
and they said you can be

01:11:59.993 --> 01:12:01.033
paid like whatever hundred

01:12:01.054 --> 01:12:03.675
fifty dollars in pounds or

01:12:03.715 --> 01:12:04.636
you can be paid two hundred

01:12:04.676 --> 01:12:06.377
dollars in bitcoin I was like

01:12:07.037 --> 01:12:07.817
what can I do with bitcoin

01:12:07.837 --> 01:12:08.317
and they're like you can

01:12:08.337 --> 01:12:09.297
buy pizza and I was like

01:12:09.358 --> 01:12:12.557
fucking sold let's go so I

01:12:12.597 --> 01:12:13.759
took the I took the bitcoin

01:12:13.779 --> 01:12:15.559
spent it all on pizza which

01:12:16.158 --> 01:12:17.139
we now know the price of a

01:12:17.158 --> 01:12:18.019
bitcoin so there you go

01:12:18.158 --> 01:12:20.619
that's um smart investment

01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:21.859
expensive pizza in the long

01:12:21.899 --> 01:12:22.900
run but you know that was

01:12:22.921 --> 01:12:26.020
like years ago so well it

01:12:26.041 --> 01:12:27.402
was the price it was a

01:12:27.481 --> 01:12:29.301
pizza cup price pizza at the time right

01:12:29.969 --> 01:12:30.149
Oh,

01:12:30.208 --> 01:12:31.590
at the time I was fucking broke as well.

01:12:31.670 --> 01:12:33.029
So it was, it was great.

01:12:33.050 --> 01:12:34.530
I just got like, I got pizza.

01:12:34.831 --> 01:12:35.851
I kept being able to get pizza.

01:12:35.931 --> 01:12:36.171
I didn't,

01:12:36.612 --> 01:12:37.712
didn't put two and two together

01:12:37.731 --> 01:12:39.132
and think the price is going up,

01:12:39.153 --> 01:12:40.332
which is why your,

01:12:40.372 --> 01:12:41.394
your ability to buy pizza

01:12:41.434 --> 01:12:42.113
isn't going down,

01:12:42.134 --> 01:12:43.534
even though you're spending your Bitcoin.

01:12:44.494 --> 01:12:45.836
Um, but yeah, you know, whatever, man.

01:12:46.315 --> 01:12:48.617
But, uh, but yeah, that guy went,

01:12:49.056 --> 01:12:50.518
went completely off the rails, you know,

01:12:50.578 --> 01:12:50.797
like,

01:12:52.054 --> 01:12:53.375
had quite a lot of bitcoin

01:12:53.395 --> 01:12:54.735
you know didn't need to do

01:12:54.796 --> 01:12:56.237
anymore it all just went a

01:12:56.256 --> 01:12:59.180
bit wrong so so I I

01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:00.300
remember when ethereum

01:13:00.340 --> 01:13:01.240
launched and I was reading

01:13:01.280 --> 01:13:02.421
the white paper and it was

01:13:02.442 --> 01:13:03.302
a little bit after I think

01:13:03.323 --> 01:13:04.623
it was like you know it was

01:13:04.644 --> 01:13:05.824
after vitalik was giving

01:13:05.864 --> 01:13:08.286
away uh you know the eath

01:13:08.546 --> 01:13:09.908
and his his name was like

01:13:10.127 --> 01:13:11.208
vitalik not giving away

01:13:11.269 --> 01:13:14.952
eath and and um I think it

01:13:14.971 --> 01:13:16.792
was like twenty bucks my my

01:13:16.832 --> 01:13:17.833
money australian

01:13:18.849 --> 01:13:20.229
um so like one freedom

01:13:20.250 --> 01:13:22.569
dollar or something yeah

01:13:22.590 --> 01:13:25.310
and um and I read the white

01:13:25.331 --> 01:13:26.551
bear I was like I can never

01:13:26.591 --> 01:13:27.591
take off this is too

01:13:27.612 --> 01:13:29.412
confusing and uh you know

01:13:29.432 --> 01:13:30.353
because I'm wasn't I'm not

01:13:30.372 --> 01:13:32.514
a programmer and um I'm a

01:13:32.554 --> 01:13:33.814
programmer what the fuck is

01:13:33.854 --> 01:13:34.873
going on about he's on

01:13:34.894 --> 01:13:36.475
crack there's all these

01:13:37.614 --> 01:13:38.615
gullible people everywhere

01:13:38.655 --> 01:13:40.456
buying this shit and uh

01:13:40.815 --> 01:13:42.556
yeah anyway history

01:13:45.168 --> 01:13:45.949
Yeah.

01:13:46.029 --> 01:13:48.212
At the time I was making,

01:13:50.193 --> 01:13:52.095
I was Python bastard

01:13:52.135 --> 01:13:53.115
fucking some Python

01:13:53.136 --> 01:13:57.378
together to make a R bot or

01:13:57.579 --> 01:14:00.322
I think like XRP on my

01:14:00.381 --> 01:14:02.644
local exchange or some shit.

01:14:02.663 --> 01:14:03.304
I thought you were talking

01:14:03.324 --> 01:14:08.828
about breeding Pythons, my guy.

01:14:08.868 --> 01:14:09.670
That's like classic

01:14:09.729 --> 01:14:11.070
Australian behavior right there.

01:14:11.451 --> 01:14:11.912
Yeah.

01:14:13.671 --> 01:14:14.271
That would have been way

01:14:14.311 --> 01:14:16.854
more Aussie to be honest.

01:14:16.873 --> 01:14:17.113
To be honest,

01:14:17.134 --> 01:14:18.114
it would have gone either way there,

01:14:18.135 --> 01:14:18.795
right?

01:14:18.814 --> 01:14:20.076
It's trying my hand at Python,

01:14:20.837 --> 01:14:22.377
the language, Python three.

01:14:22.417 --> 01:14:22.497
Yeah.

01:14:25.380 --> 01:14:25.720
Anyway,

01:14:27.581 --> 01:14:28.902
completely lost interest after the

01:14:28.981 --> 01:14:30.203
ass fell out of everything.

01:14:31.743 --> 01:14:32.885
Not until the, the,

01:14:32.904 --> 01:14:34.065
the twenty twenties again

01:14:34.286 --> 01:14:35.166
that I got back into it.

01:14:35.185 --> 01:14:36.027
Is it still running?

01:14:38.278 --> 01:14:38.797
Uh, no,

01:14:38.837 --> 01:14:40.498
like I've still got the code and I

01:14:40.519 --> 01:14:41.539
looked at it the other day

01:14:41.739 --> 01:14:42.520
when I was like going

01:14:42.541 --> 01:14:46.764
through some old files and it is not good,

01:14:47.585 --> 01:14:49.565
but it worked.

01:14:52.509 --> 01:14:54.109
I never actually fully implemented it.

01:14:54.130 --> 01:14:55.211
It was just like a logging.

01:14:56.533 --> 01:14:58.314
You would just seek the

01:14:58.394 --> 01:14:59.595
opportunity and then log it

01:14:59.675 --> 01:15:02.037
out because there was no

01:15:02.096 --> 01:15:04.578
real... This is probably

01:15:04.639 --> 01:15:05.961
why it wasn't prolific.

01:15:06.501 --> 01:15:08.122
It was XRP at the time was

01:15:09.222 --> 01:15:11.425
selling for a really big margin.

01:15:12.025 --> 01:15:12.645
There was a big ARB

01:15:12.666 --> 01:15:13.386
opportunity from the

01:15:13.407 --> 01:15:14.368
Australian exchanges

01:15:14.728 --> 01:15:16.310
because there was no real

01:15:16.350 --> 01:15:18.591
good way to transfer...

01:15:20.097 --> 01:15:20.177
um,

01:15:20.377 --> 01:15:23.039
Fiat value from Australia to like other

01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:24.579
exchanges at the time.

01:15:24.900 --> 01:15:26.921
Now, now you just have, you know,

01:15:27.002 --> 01:15:29.203
USD C and USD T you can

01:15:29.243 --> 01:15:31.243
just flick that shit back and forth.

01:15:31.663 --> 01:15:31.863
Yeah.

01:15:32.224 --> 01:15:33.625
Um, but at the time,

01:15:33.685 --> 01:15:34.604
like there was only the

01:15:34.645 --> 01:15:35.966
Australian exchanges like

01:15:36.046 --> 01:15:38.787
BTC markets and I don't know,

01:15:38.867 --> 01:15:40.007
whatever there there's this

01:15:40.148 --> 01:15:43.270
other one coin coin, something which,

01:15:43.510 --> 01:15:44.689
you know, absolutely rapes you.

01:15:44.710 --> 01:15:45.451
It's one of those dumb,

01:15:45.470 --> 01:15:46.211
dumb ones where you just

01:15:46.251 --> 01:15:46.751
press the button.

01:15:46.770 --> 01:15:47.452
Yeah.

01:15:47.792 --> 01:15:47.832
Um,

01:15:49.438 --> 01:15:50.359
and they didn't have you

01:15:50.378 --> 01:15:51.359
know the binance or the

01:15:51.380 --> 01:15:52.220
kraken or anything like

01:15:52.240 --> 01:15:54.743
that at the time um but

01:15:54.762 --> 01:15:55.644
yeah I was like you know I

01:15:55.663 --> 01:15:57.006
was kind of trying to work

01:15:57.086 --> 01:15:58.346
out a deal with some um uh

01:16:00.009 --> 01:16:03.652
like if uh like ft no what

01:16:03.671 --> 01:16:06.515
is it I can't remember the

01:16:06.555 --> 01:16:07.796
guys that trade in currency

01:16:07.957 --> 01:16:09.878
to like try and quickly move forex

01:16:10.563 --> 01:16:11.762
Yeah, Forex.

01:16:11.922 --> 01:16:13.203
To try and like quickly move

01:16:13.283 --> 01:16:14.243
over to American bank

01:16:14.264 --> 01:16:14.984
accounts and then getting

01:16:15.224 --> 01:16:16.345
American bank accounts was

01:16:16.364 --> 01:16:17.625
a fucking huge pain in the ass.

01:16:17.664 --> 01:16:19.345
And then, you know,

01:16:19.365 --> 01:16:20.426
it was all a huge pain.

01:16:20.466 --> 01:16:20.966
So it was just in the

01:16:21.025 --> 01:16:22.145
logging thing at the time.

01:16:22.166 --> 01:16:23.386
And then the ass fell out of everything.

01:16:23.426 --> 01:16:24.846
And then I was like, yeah,

01:16:25.686 --> 01:16:28.068
back to something else.

01:16:28.127 --> 01:16:31.029
I just wasted four hundred pounds.

01:16:31.048 --> 01:16:31.628
Japanese.

01:16:32.988 --> 01:16:34.090
That's how Alameda got started.

01:16:34.109 --> 01:16:36.010
It's like arbing the

01:16:36.409 --> 01:16:38.110
Japanese and Korean premiums.

01:16:39.215 --> 01:16:41.778
Well, I could have been an Alameda,

01:16:42.979 --> 01:16:45.963
except I was just a little bit too slow.

01:16:48.106 --> 01:16:49.507
You're going for the hardest

01:16:49.609 --> 01:16:52.572
possible version of making money possible,

01:16:53.313 --> 01:16:54.054
rather than just doing the

01:16:54.073 --> 01:16:55.115
dumb thing in front of your face,

01:16:55.136 --> 01:16:56.157
which was set up a server

01:16:56.176 --> 01:16:57.418
and just wait for the money to roll in.

01:16:58.466 --> 01:16:59.587
And look at you now.

01:16:59.667 --> 01:17:00.307
And look at you now.

01:17:00.387 --> 01:17:03.368
It was quite interesting.

01:17:03.389 --> 01:17:04.850
I enjoyed it anyway because

01:17:04.890 --> 01:17:07.251
I was learning the language

01:17:07.270 --> 01:17:08.591
and learning APIs and stuff.

01:17:08.652 --> 01:17:09.752
I knew nothing of APIs and

01:17:09.813 --> 01:17:10.493
everything at the time.

01:17:10.512 --> 01:17:12.073
So it was interesting.

01:17:12.094 --> 01:17:14.494
And did they make you happy?

01:17:20.717 --> 01:17:24.199
Yes, I guess so at the time.

01:17:24.239 --> 01:17:26.020
Did it bring me long-term happiness?

01:17:26.081 --> 01:17:26.600
Probably not.

01:17:29.054 --> 01:17:30.615
I've probably used that

01:17:30.655 --> 01:17:31.797
knowledge in something else.

01:17:33.761 --> 01:17:35.143
And he gave up and built an

01:17:35.203 --> 01:17:36.704
actual Python fucking business.

01:17:36.845 --> 01:17:40.470
And here you are.

01:17:42.354 --> 01:17:43.335
Like a Python reader.

01:17:45.065 --> 01:17:45.966
We had some pythons in the

01:17:45.985 --> 01:17:50.967
backyard somewhere.

01:17:51.087 --> 01:17:51.347
There you go.

01:17:51.368 --> 01:17:51.768
Sure you did.

01:17:52.087 --> 01:17:53.908
I was out emptying the bin

01:17:54.729 --> 01:17:55.668
and I heard this rustling

01:17:56.168 --> 01:17:57.969
in the hedge and I peered

01:17:58.009 --> 01:17:58.850
into the hedge and I was

01:17:58.890 --> 01:18:00.630
like... Get some crazy shit down there,

01:18:00.649 --> 01:18:00.789
right?

01:18:00.810 --> 01:18:02.090
Fuck that.

01:18:04.530 --> 01:18:05.770
It was just a big-ass python.

01:18:06.811 --> 01:18:08.332
Like a diamond python carpet snake.

01:18:09.792 --> 01:18:10.592
It was fucking massive.

01:18:10.632 --> 01:18:11.033
It was like...

01:18:12.170 --> 01:18:13.070
the length of my room

01:18:13.492 --> 01:18:14.552
swimming in your pool and

01:18:15.573 --> 01:18:16.335
so I don't know what's

01:18:16.375 --> 01:18:17.296
swimming in the pool it was

01:18:17.336 --> 01:18:18.197
swimming in the hedge

01:18:18.796 --> 01:18:20.019
swimming and it was looking

01:18:20.059 --> 01:18:21.020
at me and I was like i

01:18:22.341 --> 01:18:23.381
No, you're not poisonous,

01:18:23.421 --> 01:18:25.622
but I still don't want to, you know,

01:18:25.684 --> 01:18:26.243
have a problem.

01:18:26.283 --> 01:18:28.506
So I'm just going to go this way,

01:18:28.685 --> 01:18:30.287
back inside, turn the air conditioning on,

01:18:30.306 --> 01:18:31.087
pretend you don't exist.

01:18:31.667 --> 01:18:32.488
And I haven't seen him since.

01:18:32.509 --> 01:18:32.969
It was months ago.

01:18:32.988 --> 01:18:34.550
There you go.

01:18:34.689 --> 01:18:34.789
Yeah.

01:18:34.810 --> 01:18:35.551
So it's probably fine.

01:18:36.310 --> 01:18:36.851
I'm sure it's fine.

01:18:36.872 --> 01:18:38.313
I'm sure he's down in the house somewhere.

01:18:39.573 --> 01:18:39.654
Yeah.

01:18:39.753 --> 01:18:41.194
Definitely not like... Confirm fine.

01:18:41.555 --> 01:18:42.355
Definitely not like under

01:18:42.376 --> 01:18:43.197
the kitchen table or anything.

01:18:43.377 --> 01:18:45.018
We don't have any rats around here.

01:18:45.118 --> 01:18:46.599
So I'm sure he's still

01:18:46.859 --> 01:18:47.819
cruising around somewhere,

01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:49.400
just eating up the rat population.

01:18:50.101 --> 01:18:51.743
I wish he would eat the fucking possums.

01:18:54.007 --> 01:18:55.288
We got like these chunky

01:18:55.309 --> 01:18:56.510
possums that just jump on

01:18:56.529 --> 01:18:57.130
the roof at night.

01:18:57.449 --> 01:18:58.010
Our house has got like

01:18:58.110 --> 01:18:59.931
overhanging trees fucking everywhere.

01:19:01.091 --> 01:19:03.934
And like at eight or nine o'clock.

01:19:03.974 --> 01:19:04.954
No need to brag.

01:19:05.034 --> 01:19:05.274
Hey.

01:19:06.055 --> 01:19:10.497
No need to brag.

01:19:10.537 --> 01:19:11.738
Your gut is filled with shit.

01:19:12.747 --> 01:19:15.408
And we've got a tin roof, right?

01:19:16.109 --> 01:19:18.829
And so at some point late in the evening,

01:19:19.029 --> 01:19:20.329
usually seven or eight o'clock,

01:19:20.430 --> 01:19:21.371
nine o'clock, something like that,

01:19:23.310 --> 01:19:24.591
we must have a possum that

01:19:24.631 --> 01:19:26.072
weighs fucking twenty kilos.

01:19:26.212 --> 01:19:30.712
You hear this bang and then

01:19:30.733 --> 01:19:32.094
just like cruising up and down the roof.

01:19:32.434 --> 01:19:33.134
Eating all those rats.

01:19:33.854 --> 01:19:36.815
yeah well I don't know I

01:19:37.275 --> 01:19:37.856
don't know what the he's

01:19:37.877 --> 01:19:38.337
doing you know my my

01:19:38.356 --> 01:19:39.516
youtube algorithm is that

01:19:39.537 --> 01:19:40.677
thing is honed right and so

01:19:40.797 --> 01:19:41.898
every once in a while this

01:19:41.957 --> 01:19:42.779
dude comes up this

01:19:42.838 --> 01:19:44.238
australian dude I'll put a

01:19:44.259 --> 01:19:44.979
link in the notes when we

01:19:44.998 --> 01:19:45.960
do it but there's an

01:19:45.979 --> 01:19:47.921
australian what's that the

01:19:47.980 --> 01:19:50.060
pop guy no not no not not

01:19:50.220 --> 01:19:51.442
not drain addict he's my

01:19:51.502 --> 01:19:52.662
second favorite but but

01:19:52.822 --> 01:19:54.962
this guy he has like a he

01:19:55.023 --> 01:19:57.144
has like a he's like a and

01:19:57.184 --> 01:19:59.265
like a like a caliber rifle

01:19:59.404 --> 01:20:01.145
and this massive air rifle

01:20:01.886 --> 01:20:03.726
with this night scope and he

01:20:03.766 --> 01:20:05.127
goes out and he picks off

01:20:05.966 --> 01:20:07.307
rats and I didn't realize

01:20:07.488 --> 01:20:08.648
how what the like he had a

01:20:08.768 --> 01:20:10.507
huge fucking boar issue

01:20:11.368 --> 01:20:12.189
like out in the bush or

01:20:12.208 --> 01:20:13.509
something there was like

01:20:13.529 --> 01:20:14.349
yeah yeah they're fucking

01:20:14.430 --> 01:20:16.350
mean and like he's killing

01:20:16.390 --> 01:20:17.310
like hundreds of these

01:20:17.350 --> 01:20:19.690
things feral hogs yeah like

01:20:19.730 --> 01:20:20.511
feral you guys know the

01:20:20.551 --> 01:20:22.652
feral hogs mean no it's

01:20:22.671 --> 01:20:23.412
very much that's a

01:20:23.591 --> 01:20:24.792
throwback oh is it not I

01:20:24.811 --> 01:20:25.693
feel I feel old they shoot

01:20:25.733 --> 01:20:27.033
that yeah yeah you guys you

01:20:27.052 --> 01:20:30.253
guys are not in your head you

01:20:31.186 --> 01:20:33.228
They go on, like,

01:20:33.268 --> 01:20:35.430
boar culls here in

01:20:35.489 --> 01:20:36.570
helicopters and just hose

01:20:36.591 --> 01:20:37.911
those things with automatic weapons.

01:20:37.970 --> 01:20:39.332
Dude, that's exactly what it was.

01:20:39.372 --> 01:20:40.653
Like, he's just picking these things up.

01:20:40.693 --> 01:20:41.573
And he must have shot a

01:20:41.613 --> 01:20:42.253
hundred of those things.

01:20:42.274 --> 01:20:43.935
You've literally seen Wake and Fright,

01:20:44.114 --> 01:20:44.895
you know.

01:20:44.916 --> 01:20:46.056
That's true.

01:20:46.096 --> 01:20:47.136
You know that this shit happened.

01:20:47.176 --> 01:20:47.557
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:47.578 --> 01:20:48.358
I forget about Wake and Fright.

01:20:48.377 --> 01:20:50.259
It's a fifteen-minute-long kangaroo hunt.

01:20:50.319 --> 01:20:51.439
Well, the kangaroo piece.

01:20:51.979 --> 01:20:52.801
Yeah, that was, like...

01:20:52.921 --> 01:20:53.981
There you go, Jasper.

01:20:54.002 --> 01:20:55.283
Chuck that on your film list.

01:20:55.384 --> 01:20:55.703
Waking Friday.

01:20:55.724 --> 01:20:59.328
If you've been on this show,

01:20:59.347 --> 01:21:00.748
you have to go and watch that after.

01:21:00.769 --> 01:21:01.329
Go watch that movie.

01:21:01.390 --> 01:21:02.229
We talked about it as well.

01:21:02.250 --> 01:21:04.131
That kangaroo hump was real.

01:21:04.171 --> 01:21:05.573
That wasn't scary.

01:21:05.613 --> 01:21:06.014
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:06.073 --> 01:21:07.336
They went out and shot it.

01:21:07.376 --> 01:21:07.815
The one where they're

01:21:07.836 --> 01:21:08.756
cruising around in the car?

01:21:08.777 --> 01:21:09.478
Yeah, yeah.

01:21:09.738 --> 01:21:11.677
yeah yeah they got really

01:21:11.717 --> 01:21:12.838
drunk and then it all got

01:21:12.939 --> 01:21:14.359
out of hand and like the

01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:15.378
the people making the film

01:21:15.399 --> 01:21:16.819
were like dude these guys

01:21:16.838 --> 01:21:17.739
are just like drunk with

01:21:17.779 --> 01:21:19.180
rifles going nuts like what

01:21:19.199 --> 01:21:19.779
should we do and they're

01:21:19.800 --> 01:21:20.800
like I guess we keep

01:21:20.819 --> 01:21:22.060
filming right you fucking

01:21:22.079 --> 01:21:23.140
let it roll is what you do

01:21:23.161 --> 01:21:24.341
let it roll like this is

01:21:24.381 --> 01:21:26.280
all out of hand so I mean

01:21:26.301 --> 01:21:27.421
that is pretty standard

01:21:27.480 --> 01:21:30.282
over here though which one

01:21:30.322 --> 01:21:32.542
gun safety gun safety only

01:21:32.601 --> 01:21:33.662
exists within so many

01:21:33.703 --> 01:21:34.622
kilometers of the sea

01:21:38.057 --> 01:21:39.238
Once you get to like that,

01:21:39.838 --> 01:21:40.918
three hundred kilometers

01:21:40.958 --> 01:21:42.800
away from the sea action, you know,

01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:44.300
guns a little bit.

01:21:44.819 --> 01:21:45.961
You can draw a border like a

01:21:46.121 --> 01:21:46.780
three hundred kilometer

01:21:46.820 --> 01:21:47.820
border on the whole country.

01:21:47.841 --> 01:21:49.362
Yeah.

01:21:49.421 --> 01:21:51.662
Inside this border, like, you know,

01:21:51.742 --> 01:21:52.802
don't walk around the bush

01:21:52.842 --> 01:21:53.582
at night because it's

01:21:53.603 --> 01:21:54.563
probably a drunk person

01:21:54.603 --> 01:21:56.184
with a fucking high caliber rifle.

01:21:56.203 --> 01:21:59.145
It's funny.

01:22:00.292 --> 01:22:01.654
Yeah, because, like, you know,

01:22:02.414 --> 01:22:03.916
it's just them out there, right?

01:22:03.996 --> 01:22:04.235
They're like,

01:22:04.256 --> 01:22:05.417
I'm going to go drink some

01:22:05.457 --> 01:22:07.139
whiskey and shoot some kangaroos.

01:22:07.158 --> 01:22:07.458
Shoot some shit.

01:22:07.479 --> 01:22:07.618
Yeah.

01:22:08.899 --> 01:22:09.780
Yeah, these boars, man.

01:22:09.900 --> 01:22:11.122
And the guy was shooting feral cats, too.

01:22:11.141 --> 01:22:12.023
What the hell?

01:22:12.042 --> 01:22:13.404
What kind of cat problem is there?

01:22:14.625 --> 01:22:15.926
We have... I don't know if

01:22:15.945 --> 01:22:16.605
you've got anything like

01:22:16.626 --> 01:22:17.266
this in the States,

01:22:17.287 --> 01:22:19.908
but we have a dog fence

01:22:20.649 --> 01:22:24.091
that goes down the border

01:22:24.233 --> 01:22:26.434
between Queensland and... Oh, actually,

01:22:26.453 --> 01:22:26.994
I don't think it is on...

01:22:28.074 --> 01:22:28.836
It might be on the border.

01:22:28.855 --> 01:22:30.057
It's either on the border or

01:22:30.118 --> 01:22:30.998
near the border between

01:22:31.038 --> 01:22:32.761
Queensland and New South Wales.

01:22:33.341 --> 01:22:33.601
Yeah.

01:22:33.622 --> 01:22:35.384
And it's to keep feral dogs

01:22:36.064 --> 01:22:37.506
out of one of those states.

01:22:37.527 --> 01:22:38.929
I think it's out of Queensland.

01:22:39.368 --> 01:22:39.949
How big is it?

01:22:41.072 --> 01:22:42.493
It's fucking like the whole border.

01:22:43.293 --> 01:22:44.957
No, how tall is the fence?

01:22:45.457 --> 01:22:46.078
Oh, it's like, you know,

01:22:48.003 --> 01:22:48.944
five feet tall or something

01:22:49.003 --> 01:22:50.904
oh really like yeah it's so

01:22:50.925 --> 01:22:53.086
like metal like a chain

01:22:53.105 --> 01:22:53.966
link type of thing like

01:22:54.006 --> 01:22:55.247
that yeah it's just like a

01:22:56.408 --> 01:22:59.009
semi vermin proof fence no shit

01:23:00.016 --> 01:23:01.738
Yeah, but there's gates, right?

01:23:01.759 --> 01:23:02.720
They go through it.

01:23:03.400 --> 01:23:07.385
And you can, so you get scalps.

01:23:07.926 --> 01:23:10.609
So you go into the bush and

01:23:10.668 --> 01:23:13.652
you shoot dogs and then you

01:23:13.692 --> 01:23:15.333
scalp them and you sell the

01:23:15.373 --> 01:23:17.617
scalps to the authority

01:23:17.657 --> 01:23:19.578
that pays you to shoot the dogs, right?

01:23:19.599 --> 01:23:21.461
Yeah, like a bounty hunter or something.

01:23:21.988 --> 01:23:22.248
Yeah,

01:23:22.449 --> 01:23:25.372
but on the fence is like all of these

01:23:25.552 --> 01:23:26.412
dog carcasses,

01:23:26.432 --> 01:23:27.774
just like scalp dog

01:23:27.814 --> 01:23:29.657
carcasses hung on the fence.

01:23:29.697 --> 01:23:30.197
For what?

01:23:30.256 --> 01:23:33.801
Disconversation has been everywhere.

01:23:33.841 --> 01:23:34.201
For what?

01:23:34.220 --> 01:23:34.841
What are they doing?

01:23:35.462 --> 01:23:35.761
Dogs?

01:23:35.783 --> 01:23:36.162
Dogs?

01:23:36.323 --> 01:23:37.064
They just eat shit.

01:23:37.904 --> 01:23:38.765
They like eat all the native

01:23:38.824 --> 01:23:39.405
animals and stuff.

01:23:39.426 --> 01:23:41.787
They're just like feral, crazy ass dogs.

01:23:41.807 --> 01:23:42.109
Jesus.

01:23:42.128 --> 01:23:42.288
Yeah.

01:23:43.529 --> 01:23:44.371
Hogs and dogs.

01:23:44.770 --> 01:23:45.471
Hogs and dogs.

01:23:46.106 --> 01:23:46.287
Yeah.

01:23:46.346 --> 01:23:47.707
Like you don't want them out there,

01:23:47.747 --> 01:23:49.188
but I mean, it's a bit wild what they,

01:23:49.847 --> 01:23:50.547
when they do like

01:23:50.587 --> 01:23:52.389
collecting scouts and stuff, but yeah,

01:23:52.408 --> 01:23:53.828
it gets a little, that's a little bushy.

01:23:54.769 --> 01:23:54.868
Yeah.

01:23:54.889 --> 01:23:55.930
But that's the type of shit

01:23:55.949 --> 01:23:57.510
you come across, you know,

01:23:57.789 --> 01:23:58.329
outside of that.

01:23:58.510 --> 01:24:00.810
I can boundary.

01:24:00.871 --> 01:24:06.733
Um, are you like, uh, are you in the city,

01:24:07.073 --> 01:24:07.632
uh, Jasper,

01:24:07.653 --> 01:24:10.154
or are you like in one of the

01:24:10.354 --> 01:24:12.774
other country towns or I'm

01:24:12.814 --> 01:24:14.034
currently in Amsterdam,

01:24:14.494 --> 01:24:15.454
but I live in Lisbon.

01:24:17.480 --> 01:24:21.505
so yeah yeah yeah okay so in

01:24:21.864 --> 01:24:25.608
uh yeah europe um do you

01:24:25.627 --> 01:24:27.649
know where lisbon is yeah

01:24:27.689 --> 01:24:29.612
it's in portugal right yeah

01:24:29.671 --> 01:24:32.073
there you go sorry I wanted

01:24:32.094 --> 01:24:33.154
to get you there it seemed

01:24:33.215 --> 01:24:34.176
like you didn't know where

01:24:34.195 --> 01:24:35.277
it was for a second it's

01:24:35.296 --> 01:24:36.257
where all the crypto people

01:24:36.337 --> 01:24:37.878
are I mean I couldn't point

01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:41.243
to it on a map that's fair

01:24:41.262 --> 01:24:42.182
I'll just point to europe

01:24:42.203 --> 01:24:43.765
and go it's there it's over there

01:24:46.726 --> 01:24:47.868
You ever been to Europe, Nalo?

01:24:47.927 --> 01:24:50.768
You must have been.

01:24:50.787 --> 01:24:53.069
I've been to like Eastern Europe.

01:24:58.069 --> 01:24:59.289
Like, you know,

01:24:59.869 --> 01:25:01.510
Bulgaria and Romania and

01:25:01.729 --> 01:25:03.990
the Balkans and Croatia and

01:25:04.011 --> 01:25:04.650
that type of shit.

01:25:05.490 --> 01:25:06.230
Like down that way.

01:25:07.190 --> 01:25:08.591
I went to Germany.

01:25:09.692 --> 01:25:10.431
You've been to Germany?

01:25:11.391 --> 01:25:13.233
Yeah, I went there for a kebab.

01:25:15.997 --> 01:25:17.198
There's not much else to see there,

01:25:17.219 --> 01:25:19.880
honestly.

01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:21.600
So on our way home from our

01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:22.622
Eastern Europe trip,

01:25:22.681 --> 01:25:25.783
we went to a couple of places in Italy.

01:25:25.804 --> 01:25:27.545
And then when we were flying out,

01:25:27.585 --> 01:25:29.466
we went through Germany to

01:25:29.485 --> 01:25:32.188
fly home because the route

01:25:32.228 --> 01:25:33.127
seemed more convenient.

01:25:33.849 --> 01:25:36.270
So we just went in there to Berlin,

01:25:36.871 --> 01:25:37.990
went and saw Sinbad,

01:25:38.390 --> 01:25:41.092
got a very nice kebab worth

01:25:41.632 --> 01:25:42.854
every hour of the fucking

01:25:42.873 --> 01:25:44.175
five-hour journey it took to get it.

01:25:44.832 --> 01:25:47.635
And then off to the airport and home.

01:25:49.636 --> 01:25:51.176
Just for a kebab.

01:25:51.197 --> 01:25:52.356
Oh, man, it's fucking magic.

01:25:52.377 --> 01:25:53.097
It's a lineup.

01:25:53.557 --> 01:25:54.359
Like at ten a.m.

01:25:54.399 --> 01:25:54.939
before they open.

01:25:55.019 --> 01:25:57.541
Yeah, it's like they got like, you know,

01:25:57.560 --> 01:25:59.521
the open charcoal grill

01:25:59.582 --> 01:26:02.203
cutting up veggies and it's

01:26:02.222 --> 01:26:03.304
really good chips on there.

01:26:04.695 --> 01:26:05.336
Really good meat.

01:26:05.475 --> 01:26:06.856
Like the ones we have in Australia,

01:26:06.896 --> 01:26:09.016
it's like a fucking stick

01:26:09.056 --> 01:26:10.837
of like browned up shit on

01:26:10.896 --> 01:26:12.837
a pole where they just like

01:26:12.877 --> 01:26:13.778
spin in the heat and

01:26:13.797 --> 01:26:14.717
they're like cutting it off.

01:26:14.738 --> 01:26:15.018
You're like,

01:26:15.177 --> 01:26:16.719
I don't know what is in that shit,

01:26:16.738 --> 01:26:17.738
but it's salty and delicious.

01:26:18.319 --> 01:26:20.260
But it's not as good as like

01:26:20.520 --> 01:26:21.520
this stuff we had in Germany.

01:26:21.539 --> 01:26:22.079
It was awesome.

01:26:22.399 --> 01:26:22.899
Is that because it's

01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:23.960
primarily hogs and dogs?

01:26:23.979 --> 01:26:25.701
It could be.