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from my mouth. What the fuck?

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Why not?

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Everybody has something there, a softie on. Everybody has something there, a hard-ass

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on. That's how it works, I guess. I don't know. I don't know where to tell you.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent, validated teams.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, the perennially popular, perennially punctual validated podcast, coming

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to you from three independent, validated teams this week.

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Goodness knows, I have gotten out of the habit of doing the intro in a consistent and concise

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format. How are we doing, fellas?

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We're doing not so bad. The markets are looking good. It's always good for the vibe.

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The vibes are accelerating.

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Yeah. Trump's in. Fuck yeah.

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Let's buy some shit. It's the end of the free world.

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Elon's sorting out government efficiency. We're all going to be billionaires.

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Yeah.

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Fuck you.

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Do you catch the acronym on that?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's Dose. Yeah, it's Dose.

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It's where we are.

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It's where we are. This is cool. It's going to be okay.

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So I saw a thing. I think it was literally on r-forward slash low stakes conspiracy theories.

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It's a subreddit, as the name suggests, devoted to low stakes conspiracy theories. Although

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I think this one is potentially higher stakes because it affects all of us.

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But anyway, the low stakes conspiracy theory was just like, oh yeah, well, you know, Elon

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backs Trump, get Trump in. Elon gets the sort of everything out thing from Trump. He fucks

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it deliberately because Elon's crazy, but he's not stupid. But he is crazy, but he's

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not stupid. Important difference, important distinction.

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Like the Unabomber guy. Crazy.

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The Unabomber guy. Yeah, exactly. In a lot of ways. Elon Musk is like the Unabomber.

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Examples of that. Is this either Elon or the Unabomber guy?

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Yeah. I mean, if I had to pick one, I'd probably be the Unabomber rather than Elon. But that's

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a whole other thing. Anyway, don't quote that on my trial. Anyway, the whole, the low stakes

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conspiracy theory, I haven't been posting anything, least of all bombs. Anyway, the

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low stakes conspiracy theory is this, which is Elon gets the position, influences enough

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people to like, you know, fuck everything up, fucks up the economy. Amazing. Starts an

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involuntary, starts a voluntary recession by via government policy. And to be honest,

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like, just include just just keeps egging Trump on about the tariffs, right, which inevitably

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will lead to inflation, probably a recession of some kind, potentially worse. And what

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you typically see in recessions and depressions is that existing wealth concentrates, right?

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So rich people get richer, like it's like a classic thing. And usually government stimulus

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is do the same thing when they're kind of applied on a flat basis, because the money

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accumulates into wealth accumulates, had people would have got some. And Elon very much stands

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to benefit from that. So anyway, that's the low stakes conspiracy theory is the whole

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thing is just a long scan to basically get the US government to at some point have to

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respond to a recession they've created with quantitative easing in the next five years,

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and accumulate like dilute other people's money and accumulate some into Papa Elon's

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pocket. Papa Elon, they need no more cash.

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I mean, he's pretty flush, right? But but like, maybe this is the thing, maybe maybe

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that's what he wants you to think he's got enough. Why would he need more? Turns out he

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needs more. Anyway,

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Now, how can someone so fucking busy? Mind you, this guy's got like what 10 fucking kids?

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He's got a few. How can he have, you know, a good deck of companies, like 10 fucking

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kids whose names are hard to pronounce? And then now be working for a department of the

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government. Where in the fuck is he going to find this time? Is this is this why such

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a good candidate for it? Because he's efficiency?

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Well, because I imagine he does everything relatively poorly and the things that he doesn't

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do poorly, he's already delegated to people who are competent, right?

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He's a toy here from Elon Musk, Department of Government Efficiency, the merch will be

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fire with three.

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Fucking insane, man.

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What a fucking joke. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, he's also seems to spend like 95% of his time

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just on Twitter, refreshing Twitter, tweeting. So the fact the idea that he's going to do

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anything other than making noise is doubtful. But it does remind me a little bit of the

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whole thing. And there's a classic book called classic book classic.

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He was actually an academic textbook potentially, but it's a classic study mentioned on the

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PODO before called Moral Maze's.

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It was Aaron Schwartz's favorite book, which is another reason why it became a little bit

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famous when he killed himself.

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Sorry, good morning, whatever. And it's about essentially like how corporate organization

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structures work themselves out, like what kind of things happen in them and what people

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do all day, what people fucking do all day, right?

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And this was the studies were done in like the 10 and the 70s, I think early 80s. And

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one of the interesting things is a lot of people who are in the office don't actually

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fucking do much all day, like, excellent, right? They didn't fucking do much all day.

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They just kind of basically talk, they basically just do all the social stuff. And like that's

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actually like, they read the paper, they talk about, you know, the stocks and shit, like

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even people who are like bankers or whatever and have these like insane jobs where they

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got to work 12 hours, like the actual amount of hours on the job is like four to five.

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It's the same number of hours that somebody would do if they weren't 95, right? If not

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less. It's just that there's more fluff around the job. And I kind of like look at somebody

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like Elon and I think about that a little bit and I'm like, he spends a fucking a lot

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of time on Twitter doing fuck all. But he probably is like, I'm the busiest fucking

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guy in the universe. Well, you are on Twitter for your entire working day. And you probably

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only look up from Twitter to shout at your PA. That's literally everything else. But

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hey, fucking that's delegating, right? When you're rich as fuck, that's probably what

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people do. I mean, plenty of people. They have a staff. They have a staff. They'll have

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a he probably Elon probably has a bigger staff than Trump does because he's a richer

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guy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Easily. Yeah, I mean, maybe he's just got a really dribbly

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ass and spends a lot of time on the dunny. What else are you going to do? Twitter? Yeah.

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So he's got something to look at. Yeah. Um, fun story actually getting off topic. Um,

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so while I was asleep last night, actually, uh, I don't know, sir, do you know about

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the, um, the side project? It's like, um, ping dot pubs thing to do with Bitcoin staking.

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No, not. Um, I don't know if it's, I've heard a couple of different things related to Bitcoin

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staking, but I'm not sure if I'm, I know the ping dot pub one. It's called side project.

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Oh, no, no, no. Oh, we, I think I talked about it, but I'm not involved in it. That's probably

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a name that needs some revisiting. Yeah. That's not very good. I think it's like a placeholder,

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uh, because it was their side project originally. Anyway, so while I was asleep last night,

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there was a upgrade, uh, cause the network was halted, right? There was a, you know,

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some problem that they were fixing and it was halted, needed an upgrade. Um, anyway,

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so they, they did the upgrade, uh, while I was asleep, very, they just do them.

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One brand, one of those and like, oh, we'll do one off it goes. Um, and it, uh, and the

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little side process was upgraded as well. Anyway, I've been asleep, didn't upgrade.

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Um, and yet I didn't miss any blocks at all. Even though the network kept chugging along.

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Uh, just kept using the same binary. My node wasn't running, but when you look at the missed

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blocks for the network, I didn't miss any blocks. How is that? Someone, someone posted

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up like, you know, the, how, you know, you got the PV top addicts out there. Yeah. Who

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have to post the PV top to show that they've, you know, got the little green fucking dot.

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Uh, anyway, I had the little green dot. Do I have another node running somewhere or

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they're upgrading? You might've just wasting my time. I don't fucking know. But anyway,

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I found that was only during the stall while I was getting consensus or that was after

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the chamber. No, no. And then like afterwards, like I upgraded about six hours later when

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I woke up and, uh, still fine. Yeah. Still getting information from the RPC. I checked

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the node. It's got, it's not jailed. So yeah, good question.

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It's, it's tenor. Is that what it is? Yeah. It's a Cosmos SDK thing.

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Is it? And, and what about, um, and the execution layer too?

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Yeah. Yeah. The only thing it's just got a module and a, and a side car. I think for

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the Bitcoin stuff, is it because you're using the new Cosmos station tool set that they

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keep pumping in every freaking channel I'm in? Oh my fuck Cosmos station.

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Well, they had the, I think they launched, uh, there's a, a monitoring thing, which just

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looks like it's a Grafana structure is all it looks like.

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There's a thing. Yeah. So it's like, it's, it's on a, it's on a Cosmos station domain

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and it's fucking Grafana. It is Grafana. Like, but I was like, there's no stuff in there.

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Yeah. They, so I guess they've made like an exporter of some description.

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Yeah. I think so. Either Python or maybe a GoBase.export or something like that.

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Yeah. I mean, they shared the code. Yes. I always haven't looked at it. Um, but I did

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find it quite interesting that they were sort of getting a block by block representation.

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I found pretty interesting.

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Yeah. Because normally like, uh, Grafana and Prometheus stuff is bucketed. So I don't

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know if they're getting the information from maybe like a different type of DB instead

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of the standard Prometheus stuff, because you can pull information from tons of different

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shit on Grafana, right? It's not, you know, just have to get it from, um, like a Prometheus.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Prometheus is like a time, time-based thing.

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Uh, but you could still do it. Yeah. I guess the question is, would you show it block by

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block? Like, would you do it block based? Yeah. I guess that's a good, that's good.

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They're presenting the information block by block, which I found interesting. So that's

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yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's not much in it. It's just basically fucking, right? And the

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Judy in Grafana, but yeah, actually the, the alerting was pretty basic. I mean, it's not

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so much the visualizations like that. We've done this before. It's the alerting. That's

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really the alerting. So the alerting, the alerting is really the thing, but that tool, whatever

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that tool, the other tool that I thought was way more interesting was the upgrade handler

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tool. Did you take a look at that as a Cosmos station or as the, um, Cosmo via Cosmo advisor

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replacement? That was actually really interesting. I started getting involved in that, um, and

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read it a little bit. So it's basically like a Cosmo via, they do everything in Docker.

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So it doesn't really work for us. Um, but it is a, is this Cosmos station? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. Um, but it's a Docker manager. I think the name is like, it's not blast. It's something

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like something like that. I don't know what the hell it is. I'll think of it. Something

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I know. Um, but it is, it's basically a Docker manager. Um, it, it has, I think a local database

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that might be in Postgres or something else. And also that can communicate with a centralized

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database and that centralized database has a UI on it, like a webpage UI. And so what

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it will do is it will pull, it will pull off chain, the open votes or things related to

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an upgrade, um, and allow you to put in a URL for the actual binary or other types of things.

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Right. That has, um, or the, the appropriate GitHub tag or commit. And then I think behind

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the scenes, um, they must have something else that does the actual Docker, uh, creation

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for that specific tag, right? It might have something that goes and just pulls it and

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builds it. Um, but then you can see what nodes are staged. Um, you can cancel an upgrade.

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You can, um, there was actually like a little cool UI around it. So I think they use that

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to be able to manage across the fleet. Um, and it was, it was more than I thought it

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was. So it replaces Cosmovisor. Because I guess in the Docker world, um, you really don't

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have a good Cosmovisor replacement. The ones that we've actually seen, uh, people either

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run manually, which is not really Cosmovisor replacement, or I have, we have seen, like

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we work with a couple chains that actually build the Cosmovisor upgrade into the next

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version of that binary. So like if we're on version nine, they'll publish version 10,

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which we can run at any point because in that container is both nine and 10 with a version

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of Cosmovisor that's waiting for the nine to 10 upgrade. And that's all it's waiting

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for, uh, which actually isn't a bad, it's not a bad solution. It's just a matter of

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like, you know, it's kind of a pain in the ass. Um, and it's very one by one. It can't

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really, it's difficult to take that and like build that for it.

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Also, I mean, I guess how, yeah, I guess that that's, yeah, cause we're the, the reason

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you can, the reason you can't do it more seamlessly is because of the upgrade semantics in the

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protocol of the way 10 minute works. Cause otherwise, if it was just a rolling upgrade,

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you could just be like, fuck it, let Docker handle it.

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They just let it go. Yeah. Yeah.

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Which we get with the upgrade semantics of some other smart contract VMs, I guess.

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Sure. And also like Ethereum and things like that, where you're really running a binary

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before the hard fork, you're not, the binary itself isn't the hard fork, right? Um, so

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yeah, you run a binary with the new version of the code ready to go. And then it hits

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the point and then you basically, and then if you're not on it, you, you hash out, right?

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But if you are, then it goes, um, or just actually that, that, that code has stuff in

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there to say, this is the major version that we're on. And this is the code major version.

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And once that code major version goes, it recognizes that the running binary does not

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meet the code needs. And so therefore it stops is really what it does.

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Yeah. It's in the, it's in the block metadata or something.

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I don't know, or it might be something on chain calling might be, yeah.

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Something like that.

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Cause there are also, there are also hooks on there and Ethereum that operate in a slightly

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different way. I'm not deeply versed in the internals of it. I just know that there can,

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there is some way that it can indicate what, what, what, what essentially what, what we

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would maybe call invariance in, um, cosmos like the correctness, essentially the correctness

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around the version to use. One of the things is just straight up the version, right? That's

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the same in cosmos. Yeah. The first invariant check is what version is the binary reporting

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and that happens in Ethereum as well. It just operates in a slightly different way.

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Um, and then they, they, I think in this one, they also, um, well, the, the one that we

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were talking about, they also move like where the upgrade structure is, is set since usually

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the, that cause that cosmopolizer, uh, upgrade file that would be part of the upgrades tree,

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but that would not, that wasn't having a state to it in a Docker container. So I think they

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move that into the config folder or something to where the upgrade JSON file is like whatever

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the hell they do. They some, some rigmarole there. Um, but that cosmopolizer upgrade thing

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is interesting. It'd be interesting to, through, I do, there's some parts of that, like, I

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mean, the Docker piece of it, uh, we've thought about migrating to that and, but I don't really

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hope there's any benefit to it the way that we're structured, but, um, but the, I,

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I was a really ain't broke.

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Like it's not broken. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, from, from that perspective to have

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a single pane of dashboard, which is we were talking about, that might be a ZabEx solution,

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but we were talking about a way to see what is coming, what nodes are staged and then

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have control over that from a central location. And we're just doing that through like ZabEx

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and maybe some sort of Ansible automation of some sort, which is basically what they're

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doing. They're just doing it in this, in this kind of structure. I, it just, it was difficult

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to tell if they each node had, had a database like, I don't want to run that shit. Um, and

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I call that kind of shit.

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That's too much. Kind of shoehorning in like some fucking, um, like Docker as well. Like

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I don't want to run. Yeah, agree. Yeah. Agreed. So there's, there's also like, um, you know,

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for alternate solutions, there's, there's also the strange love, um, Cosmos dash operator

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is like a Kubernetes based contraption they've built, uh, which it's got some good features

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as well. I read the docs on that.

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I don't think there's no upgrade. I mean, all that upgrade, I think is manually still

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run though, right? There's no, there's no centralized management of, of that. It's

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this container management, right?

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There is centralized management of upgrades in those are. Yeah. So they had, they had

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in their rows, hey, is the command and control is using, maybe using Kubernetes rolling restarts

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or something like that. Right.

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Not sure how it works, but if they had on their roadmap to do like auto upgrades and

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I asked, um, Jack, example and about it, and he said that it had already been implemented

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and that the docs were out of date. So, um, cool. But I wanted to, the reason I was asking

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them is because I wanted to pick their brain about like, uh, how exactly they're getting

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the, the binary, um, versions for their upgrades. Uh, and I never got to the bottom of that.

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But apparently it's.

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Hey, what do you mean? How do they get the binary versions?

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Well, I mean, they're not in the governance, the binary versions aren't in governance. So

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I just wanted to know where they were like scraping that information.

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Well, it must be that the upgrade info.json option has optional fields and some chains

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include that information and some don't.

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Yeah. But if you're making a ubiquitous, uh, tool, they're either maintaining a DB somewhere

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or they're getting it from somewhere.

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Or if that's not content or, or it's automatic unless there's no upgrade info, um, specified

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version in which case you just hold and wait for an input.

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Well, I mean, it is, it is somewhat taboo in Cosmos to just use that, um, binary, uh,

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direction from the, the info, like people don't like to do it and shunned for doing it.

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So shunned shunned.

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Say just for a reason, but yeah, I appreciate that a lot of people don't do it.

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Uh, we know from a validator perspective, people are staunch, build your own fucking

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binary guys. Yeah.

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I mean, no one checks the code.

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This is the seat. I know.

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Well, so look, all right. Nobody checks the code. That's a very, that's what I believe

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we in.

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Like know what you're building in the beer one, or the very strong statement. And, uh,

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I think I'm going to have to see your, uh, your field work on that. No, not nobody.

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No, we agree. Can we agree that it's, it's less than 50%.

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What I can say is having done a little bit of field work on whether or not anybody does

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check the code, you would be surprised people do check the code.

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I'm surprised.

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As you said, you didn't bullshit in your fucking.

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Exactly. Yeah. I'm a fucking good validator. I check everything.

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Uh, well, actually what we found, um, was that overwhelmingly people put that it was

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the expectation that they checked the code, but we're honest about the fact that they

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didn't.

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Yeah.

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Anyway, the point is usurper is, uh, usurper is correct. It is less than 50%.

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But I would say, I would say there's more, there is definitely more safety on a, on a

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commit and that commit, which should be really part of a Cosmos SDK, um, governance proposal.

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Like that field should be added. I don't know why it hasn't been changed, but that,

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that is something that should be, I think part of that problem.

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But for us to be able to build off a specific commit, I think that has a little bit more,

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um, a little bit more safety to it than just a binary that could be hosted anywhere. And

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that binary might be hosted on GitHub, which okay, I'm with you. There's verified builds

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on there, but not always. Like we've seen them, I've seen them stored in Google cloud before.

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We've seen them like the, I think the injective team does something similar to that or maybe

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not injective. Somebody, one of these chains does, well, they put, they host them someplace

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else. Um, and that I don't really like, like, I don't know, like, I mean, we don't use

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binaries anyway, but if anything, if you're building automation around automatic upgrades

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and you're using some such field, it should have a check to make sure that it's coming

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from GitHub and the official repository.

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I mean, or, or like, I mean, they could, they can even put a shot 256 in there as well. Like

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there's lots of ways to be able to do some sort of binary matching to say that this hasn't been

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tampered. Or I mean, I mean, isn't it, did Gatopia do this? Or there's somebody who did,

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where you could actually call an endpoint on chain to get the hash of the version that's coming.

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There was something on that. Like it was, it was maybe it was, maybe it was outside of

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the cosmos. That does ring a bell, but I can't remember. Yeah, I don't remember what I was.

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Like that idea, like why wouldn't that be, I mean, that seems like something that would be

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good too. Like here's the commit hash that commit hashes could be part of governance,

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which would be fine. Or, or that, or there's a shot that goes with that or something else

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where you can do some verification, not that people would, but at least it's there, right?

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Well, okay, right. I say, and let's, let's go with another hot take. Are having now

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thought about it a lot, talk to a bunch of people, dug around in the guts of tendermen, dug

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around in the guts of other consensus systems, found out how all this bullshit works on aptos

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and to lesser extent on Ethereum enough that I could say something about it, although I still

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don't know the full internals of it. I just do not think I do not, I already thought that it was

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probably not the job evaluators to really check the code other than from a, so, so, so, I don't

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think it's, I don't think it's the job evaluators to check the code. And if your network is relying

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on that in the long term, you're probably not going to make it. That would be a, that's a strong

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statement. I'm going to throw it out there. But I would, and I'm also going to back that up with

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I was reading a paper this morning. Imagine anyway by Buddhist Louis Pie, I believe, and

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Rough Garden. Very good, very good paper. An old friend of the podcast, Ben 2x4,

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from Juno Swap had recommended a different paper by Buddhist, which essentially it shows that

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the amount of economic security you need to secure a permissionless low trust blockchain scales

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linearly with the value of the chain. So that presents some real fucking problems about ever

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truly securing one of these things at scale. I obviously love it because I've been writing

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paper or a couple of papers basically, intuiting that same theory from the other angle, right,

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which is that number one, you don't even know how you're going to be attacked. But number two,

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it's always going to be profitable to attack you past a certain point, but also your security only

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works if you're profitable past a certain point. So it's kind of self fulfilling prophecy, right,

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as an inherent failure, which is that either you're so valueless or so worthless as a blockchain,

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like you look in the mirror and you're like, worthless. There's nobody will attack you,

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or you're worth something or somebody will attack you. And there's always a way of doing that that's

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not very expensive. Anyway, the point is that the reason the reason that even works is economic

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security, right, this is what all these networks rely on. They rely on this idea that it's too

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expensive to attack the chain, right. And so what Buddhist did is essentially prove that it's not

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too expensive to attack the chain. And it follows on from, I want to say boom, like a very, very

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long time ago, there was like somebody who just did like a straightforward like bit of economic

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analysis where they said, well, you can always make money if you take over the entire chain. So

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actually, you can just take over a proof state chain. It's just whether you've got enough cash,

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that's it. That's it beginning your end done. And they're kind of right, right. But the

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British thing that's different, right, is saying that, well, the reason it's not profitable to do

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so is collapse of the asset, right, that's the that's the variable that matters, right.

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Which again, this is a result we've all intuited, like all of us know this, we all know this, but

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like somebody actually describing it with mathematical and economic rigorousness and going

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like, here is a result with an equation that is provable. Yeah, is interesting. And so the

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rough garden paper is like the computer science equivalent of the economics paper, it's got the

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same co authors, right. And they basically say that look, okay, and the interesting about about

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it is it has Tim rough gardens, one of the authors. Now, anybody who's listened to this podcast for

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a very long time, where it's all two years, will know that we have multiple times recommended

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the Tim rough garden lectures for anybody who wants to get a good idea of how these consensus

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systems work under the hood, because Tim rough garden has his lecture notes from the series that

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he used to teach on consensus systems live on YouTube, you just go watch it the whole course

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where and one of the systems he looks at in a great deal of detail is tendermint, right.

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As an example of what we you know, I think when we first started teaching that course, which I

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think it was in 2019 or so, tendermint was like one of the kind of newest generation of consensus

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systems. And also it has this lineage going all the way back to PBFT, which obviously has a rich

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computer science heritage. So anyway, it's interesting, of course, that Tim rough garden,

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who's very familiar with tendermint, is one of the co authors of this paper. So what you find

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is there's this paper that has quite a focus actually on tendermint. And it essentially

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describes like whether or not whether or not an attack on finality, right, is cheap or expensive.

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And the property they say that is desirable in these systems that we've built these blockchains,

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right, is that the blockchain be expensive to attack in the absence of collapse of the asset,

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right, which stay abbreviated E double AC, right. That's the thing to kind of remember and take away.

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But the point is that the majority of these blockchains, they argue you only get only don't

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get attacked at the moment, because they are expensive, because of collapse, right, that

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the whole thing will fall down if the attack is carried out successfully. It doesn't matter how

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the attack is carried out successfully, they they really, really focus on kind of like a voting attack

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followed by a double spend attack. But I guess I my focus is kind of governance attacks. And that

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sort of thing or rewrites or validator set collusion and that kind of thing like mine's a bit more

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woolly and kind of humanities degree, I suppose, in the sense of like the way I think about the

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cybersecurity threat, I think about the cybersecurity threats people because that's what I always think

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of. And then the way that they execute it is via computer science, right, they subvert a consensus

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mechanism or a protocol isn't quite designed right or whatever. Anyway, so the end result of this

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anyway is that they say, okay, well, there's actually a way you can design systems that are expensive

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to attack in the absence of collapse. But yeah, so anyway, like that's basically it, that's the

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beginning of it. There's this property of these blockchains that we all know about, because we

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figured it out, we've seen it in the wild, and some people have come up with some papers that

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kind of cover it. And it's cool. And thanks to Ben 2x4, for bringing them to my attention. And I've

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been enjoying reading those. So what you're basically saying is I don't need to read the

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upgrade code. Yes. So the point is, the point is that the only reason the blockchain is safe

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is because the asset will collapse. That is actually the core fundamental reason why it's safe. And,

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you know, if the asset collapses, it's because of a trust problem, right? And it's because somebody

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violated the trust the protocol, right? Kind of like credit failure. It's like a bank run or a credit

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failure or something like that, like credit we're being withdrawn. So anyway, TLDR, if you're a

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validator, probably check the code. And there's an equation or two that might be used to justify that

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position. So there you go. Right. There you go. And no, no left. No, no, it's like, no, it's like,

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wait, I don't need to check this code. Do I even need to just because he's a bad planner?

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No, it's interesting. He was talking about the Kubernetes thing, right? Do you reckon that

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strange love is still running? Oh, yeah, they do. Because I mean, they can be running Kubernetes on

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their own hardware, of course, but they're probably not running. No, it's all GCP. It's still all GCP.

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Yeah, I think it's all GCP. Yeah, because I think what I talked to him, well, I guess it's been a

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while. It was like earlier this year, but it was definitely all GCP still then. Yeah, so I think

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it's all GCP. How old will be GCP? That is really expensive. It depends on exactly what they're

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doing with that and the the expects of that. And also if they if they take on a certain number of

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compute for two or three years, with a commitment, it's really not that bad. Like it starts to really

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go down. It's really the shorter length commitments. Okay, to be fair, GCP, do you know

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that is one way in which I've heard GCP is like so much better than AWS. Same thing. I mean,

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they all they all are that way. But I mean, you like, we do like a few years. Yeah, yeah,

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you have to pay it upfront. You have to commit though. Yeah, yeah, AWS you have to commit upfront.

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Whereas so GCP, from my understanding of their billing model, right, you just keep running that

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thing. And they start applying the discounts as if you committed to it. I have no idea. I believe

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they use GCP. I was talking to somebody at conference last week that was saying that they

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they'd move infrastructure for their company. They, sorry, they didn't run or own the company.

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They were like a CTO there. Yeah, it was not their money. They have a board breathing down their neck

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about saving money. And one of the things they had done was move to GCP because they said,

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well, we still don't know what our allocation or whatever will be. But we know that if we end up

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running it for longer, we will get these discounts. Now, I don't know their billing model in enough

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detail to know if there's caveats or if you have to like, you know, tick a box somewhere or how

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that actually threshes out. I can only report what I was told, but they said like, essentially,

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they didn't have to think about how long they were provisioning a thing for, they just spun it up.

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And at some point, they would get the they would get a discount. And it was not insubstantial.

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And so I was like, interesting. Yeah. That's usually like 60 or 70%. Like it's substantial.

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Discount. Discount. Like it goes down a lot.

387
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You know, you have to you have to jump through a lot of things. Give them a case study and you

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got to pay upfront. No, it's the same. Like they do discounts based on month to month with a

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commitment and also pay upfront with a commitment, obviously pay upfront higher.

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But like, I think the biggest thing is just the pay as you go, because it keeps getting higher,

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higher, like all this on demand pricing is just getting insane. Like we use it for some like

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databases and other types of stuff. And all that stuff is just getting really expensive for very

393
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,920
little when it comes to on demand. So that means they're really trying to force people into

394
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,520
into longer agreements. And now there's a whole services businesses that's built around like

395
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,440
trying to get, you know, club community cost down based off agreement strategy and those types of

396
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,120
things. We actually use one called Vantage that actually does a pretty good job, which is it just

397
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,200
it's a cloud service that hooks up into gets read only access to build details and then does analysis

398
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:36,040
on what you're spending and looks at a few, a few key indicators and says, Hey, put, you know,

399
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,040
do this plan, like, like if you're planning on keeping this around for six months or whatever,

400
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,280
just do this plan, you'll lower by 33%. So we do every once in a while, we, you know, we run those,

401
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,160
which is pretty interesting. There's a whole, you know, some strategy around that too. So

402
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:59,080
it does surprise me there. I mean, like we, yeah, it's, it's pro it's, it's still traumatic to talk

403
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:06,840
about how much we, we spent on AWS in the various years in the height of the cosmos years and whatever.

404
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:13,480
But like, we, we absolutely had, had we not been running around or had I not been running around

405
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,880
putting out fires here, there and everywhere with all of the cosmos drama and all the other

406
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,800
shit. Yeah. I mean, given that almost all of that other stuff that occupy 95% of my time,

407
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:31,480
actually wasn't bringing in much or any money. Really should have spent more time on putting

408
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:38,440
things like billing analysis in place for AWS account because could have saved probably thousands

409
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,440
of dollars. Yeah. There's so much, I mean, there's so much cash flow at that point though.

410
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,920
But I mean, right, like right now, even though, you know, prices are looking better, although

411
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,720
since we've been talking things are, we've got a little redway.

412
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:55,400
They got a ride. Yeah. Bitcoin is the game in that effect. Bitcoin isn't last at 94,000 for

413
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:02,600
that long. So it's, it's down 2% in the last hour. But I mean, every stake in profits, which they

414
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,720
should, to be honest, like these, some of these, I mean, mostly Bitcoin has been pretty crazy in

415
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,960
terms of percentage, but some of these other ones have been, have been pretty high percentages over

416
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,840
the last week or two, aptose included. And I think people just taking profits associated to that

417
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:22,840
so we don't have anything to sell. But you know, I mean, we, I thought of selling some aptose to

418
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,680
be honest at the price we've seen the last week, but then I also noticed that another one of those

419
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:36,600
black rock thingy, jiggies has, has expended, extended to aptose. And I thought, I think

420
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,720
there's probably more to come. Yeah. I saw there's a day or something, wasn't there? Or

421
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:45,560
something related to that? Last couple of days. Yeah. Maybe it was yesterday. I thought,

422
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:51,480
I mean, you know, it's like anything else, like, you know, there's a balance to be struck between

423
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:59,160
where we were in Juneau, where we restate almost everything and then lost almost everything.

424
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:06,120
You know, it's like, cool. You know, you've restaked everything. You didn't, you didn't

425
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,640
rug retail, but you know, now you have like 100,000 Juneau after all of the, after all of the,

426
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,760
what's it called, your commission and everything and all of the, all of the staking rewards for

427
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,360
three years and whatever it's like, cool, you got 100,000 Juneau, it's worth like

428
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:27,960
$5,000 or something like cool. Okay, whatever. There's a balance between that having 100,000

429
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,240
of something that's not worth it and anything. But it's not worth anything relative to its

430
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:40,680
historical peak and having like 510K of a token tucked away and being like, if it drops below

431
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,440
this price point, just sell it, just sell it so that you believe with something. I think that would

432
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:53,240
be there. Yeah, or the opposite, which is keep, keep 10% sitting around in case something goes

433
00:35:53,240 --> 00:36:00,520
absolutely a***** and, and the rest of them you, you either sell off or you, you know,

434
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,960
as you think it's needed or pull commissions when you think it's needed.

435
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:11,000
And take profits like when you can, because I mean, obviously like trying to guess tops or

436
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:18,360
bottoms in this f*****g thing is ridiculously, yeah, fruitless, right? So it's better just to

437
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,960
DCA out. I mean, I think it just has to happen. And we've talked about it before as well. You have

438
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:31,880
to DCA out purely because the, the whole, the whole market is so based on novelty. Yeah.

439
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:37,480
Yeah. The only certainty really is almost that all of these tokens are going to go to zero. And

440
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,440
you know, I think the, the one thing all of us in the cosmos, not everybody, but I think most

441
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,200
people in the cosmos were a little bit blindsided by it was number one, the speed at which these

442
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:55,000
tokens can decorate. And number two, like the, I think everybody's mental model of like this

443
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:01,480
thing was $20 and now it's worth almost nothing meant that I think a lot of people didn't sell

444
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:08,040
at say $1 and realize, oh yeah, and realize what was to be fair, quite a healthy amount in sort of

445
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:15,240
like actual cash on the table. Like, you know, we could have, for us, we could have realized

446
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:22,280
like a year of runway or something. If we had sold at a reasonable time instead, didn't. And

447
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,920
you know, that's a mistake, but that's also fine. You know, we still, I think, you know,

448
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,120
came out okay overall, despite all of the shenanigans, which I know is not the case for some

449
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:38,920
people. So can't really complain, right? But yeah, and I think, I think I was, you know,

450
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,400
you get, you get a little starry eyed on some of that stuff and wanted to do well and blah,

451
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,480
blah, blah. And I totally agree. Like, I mean, Adam being at $42 or the hell it was and

452
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,440
Yeah, it dropped. Yeah, it was, it was down to 20 bucks. People like, why the fuck would I possibly

453
00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:02,200
sell us at 20 bucks? Well, we've been at, we've been under $20 since, since January, April of 2022.

454
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,720
So two and a half years. And we're at five bucks, which is actually pretty good since it was down

455
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:14,040
to like, it was like 370 or something. Yeah, it was pretty brutal. Like it was, it was in a bad spot.

456
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040
Like, it's one of those things, I know I've said it before on the pod open, like it is,

457
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:27,160
it is genuinely bizarre to think back to what the vibe was like in, in, when it was the end of

458
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:33,080
October. So just after the main net for Stargaz and Juno. That was good times. End of, end of October,

459
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:39,800
when there was Cosmoverse in Lisbon. Yeah, genuinely, I think back to that. I think back to the

460
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:46,600
conversations I had and the things I saw, people I talked to, and it just doesn't feel real. Like,

461
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:52,680
it just genuinely is baffling. For sure. Because you look at like where the, where Cosmoverse is

462
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:59,400
now, where there is, you know, most the OG tokens are not coming back. And, you know, we talked about

463
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,240
it before, like there's, there's not energy behind tendermen and IBC in some quarters, but like,

464
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,840
there's new projects, new ideas, blah, blah, blah, new opportunities. There's so many things, but like,

465
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:15,000
there isn't like, there isn't the energy, like it's that vibe. There's no vibe.

466
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,880
There's no strong vibe in the Cosmos anymore. Maybe that's just about the Cosmos and the

467
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,840
builders are still there somewhere. But, you know, we've seen a lot of validators that we knew exit

468
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:31,720
as well, or wind down or, you know, keep running nodes, but go back to day jobs and whatnot. And

469
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:38,200
I think that's probably true more or less across the board, like for builders as well as for validators

470
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:46,360
and other people. And it's kind of wild to think just how short in some ways that period was between

471
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:54,920
essentially October 21 to the wheels coming off him properly in May 22. It's like

472
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:05,160
almost exactly to the day, a six month with a peak in sort of March. I think I'm in Prop 16

473
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:12,120
caught the absolute tip. But that fall was coming a month later anyway.

474
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:17,400
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But even this year, I mean, Adam's floated between $11 to

475
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,880
$14.19 this year in March, which was pretty high and a low of $370, something like that,

476
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,680
$390, $380. And now we're up to, so like it's down 100% this year, even in this year, which

477
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:37,480
actually in grand scheme of things has not been a bad year compared to at least last year.

478
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,720
So it's kind of wild to me that Adam was able to get back up to $15. Like that's, that's

479
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:48,440
a, yeah, yeah, the head of the sense of good spikes this year, $14. Yeah. It's sort of,

480
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,120
I guess, his name recognition, isn't it? To some extent, but like, yeah.

481
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,320
I don't remember why. Yeah. Not financial advice, but there are other,

482
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,800
there are other tokens out there that aren't getting that kind of positive price action.

483
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,440
I'm surprised by it because they've come along more recently.

484
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:07,720
Yeah. And Kudasabayas, who were buying Adam at $380 or even now at $506, like you got

485
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:12,520
steel nuts, man. About $380 to $5, I mean, you're $380 selling at $5. That's a hefty profit.

486
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,240
If you want to, you know what I mean? Like $370 or $380.

487
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:19,880
Adam is the top 4 to 500 coin, says Rahmur in the comments.

488
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:20,360
There you go.

489
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:32,120
Yeah. Wild times. But yeah, I think it'd be, I kind of think that like, okay,

490
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,360
it's not financial advice. I've got a good feeling about next spring to summer, right?

491
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:45,960
And that's not just because I went away on a wellness retreat and then came back with a new

492
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:55,320
live, laugh, love attitude. I didn't put crystal balls up. I didn't do crystal therapy or whatever

493
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:00,600
it is where you put a crystal ball inside you. It kind of just feels like, well,

494
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:06,600
this bear market's been a heck of a, it's been a minute. I don't know. I'm kind of low-key

495
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:13,560
interested to go back and see in the conferences in the spring, like what the energy is. Is it

496
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,880
just going to be more fucking KYC and stable coins? Because if so, fucking kill me.

497
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,640
Oh, it totally is. Come on. You got to believe. No, we've got to believe there will be something

498
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:29,080
more interesting. Come on. Have you heard about restaking? Oh, fuck restaking. If that's the

499
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:38,520
next hype cycle, then that's it. I'm out. I'm fucking done. Restaking is stupid. And it doesn't do,

500
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:45,000
if anything, I'm almost certain it makes all the problems that I was talking about earlier

501
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,520
worse, but I lack the mathematical or economic knowledge to be able to go and

502
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,320
where improve that. But I can intuit that it will be bad for stability. Fuck an A.

503
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,280
You don't lack an opinion though. Yeah.

504
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,480
Hey, man. Look, you know, strong opinions weekly held. That's what I say, isn't it?

505
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:11,560
About technical leadership. It's like our local Karen. Oh, man, I had a fucking heard of Karen

506
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,080
starting up yesterday when I was in the local, like, you know, Kmart.

507
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:23,960
Fucking hilarious. Side, just a side. Oh, what? A Karen. You know, like, it's like, you know,

508
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,600
your Walmart or whatever. It's like, you know, just a department, like a cheapest department store.

509
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,800
Yeah. And there was this fucking Karen, man. She started up giving like this poor dude

510
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,360
just the hardest time. I'm going to call the fucking head office and ask him about this. He's like,

511
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,120
hang your fuck. Go your hardest. He's like, that's our store.

512
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:51,560
Polish the other stores do this. He's like, okay, not this one. Not here. Yeah, not here.

513
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,760
I said, loudly. I said, look, Kelly, it's a fucking Karen.

514
00:43:54,760 --> 00:44:04,920
She yelled at a Karen in the wild. Did I get yelled at? No, but she did fucking snarl at the guy.

515
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,840
Sweet. Karen's don't want any real conflict. They're like, I just want to pick on a fucking

516
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:18,120
dude whose job it is to listen to my bullshit. That's true. Yeah. So anyway, restaking,

517
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,400
there's a lot of that going on at the moment. We were talking about what we expect to see

518
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,120
at conferences in the spring. What do we recommend?

519
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:31,320
Will you be going to conferences in the spring? I think next year, I say that the end of every

520
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,960
year though, but I think I'm going to do a little bit more next year. I think we might

521
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,840
switch it up too. I think we might skip some ones that we've done in the past.

522
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:44,600
Yeah, man. Fuck the eighth whatever in Denver, in the Americas. Come up this way.

523
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,600
Come to Asia. Asia is later in the year. I'd be over there now if it weren't for the new fella.

524
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:56,680
Yeah. I think we might switch it up too. Maybe a little bit more ECC and DevCon and stuff.

525
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:03,640
I'm doing ECC. You are. You did that money thing again? Did you do that this year? You did, right?

526
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:10,520
I did money. Yeah, yeah. Saw artifact. It was fucking shit. It was cool.

527
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:16,280
They're emailing me. It's a home of the artifact crew. But it was all fintech,

528
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:25,160
you know, and it was no... Talk to artifact about it. See what they think. Because my vibe was like...

529
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,440
But I'll just be fair, I had a fucking three month old. I was so exhausted that it made...

530
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,880
I could have had a business opportunity fucking staring me in the face and I'd have been like,

531
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:40,840
huh? Who are you? What the fuck? But my general vibe was it was just there was nothing.

532
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:46,600
There was nothing there that really seemed to benefit from a networking perspective or even

533
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:52,440
kind of an awareness perspective. It was just like it was just being the ugly one at the party.

534
00:45:53,400 --> 00:46:00,840
And there are people... My vibe with Money 2020 is it's people who work in or around financial

535
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:11,480
services and they get to go because it's a free jolly. Of course, right? But there's no...

536
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,520
I'm sure there are decision makers there. I'm sure there are people who are useful to connect with,

537
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:25,160
but it's not... You'd have to shoot a shotgun into a room of people to get a single bit of

538
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:33,400
buckshot and somebody that you actually wanted to hit. And it is also huge. It's huge and

539
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:40,360
incomprehensible as well. So it was good in the sense that obviously we had literally a client

540
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:47,800
with a side event. But we had a network that we operate on who had a side event and that made

541
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:56,280
it worth doing. But the main event was just a wash. There was a bit of stuff where it was just like,

542
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,160
oh, this is kind of interesting to see that they've obviously spent a million dollars on that stall.

543
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,760
There are a couple of blockchain networks there being like, we're the future of real-world assets

544
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,720
or whatever. And you're like, okay, cool. You just spent like two million dollars

545
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:16,200
to tell a bunch of middle managers at banks who are not in the space. That, cool.

546
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:22,680
I guess you guys must have a lot of money. But it wasn't like... Yeah, I would go to... I mean,

547
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:29,640
I think the best bet is to still go to blockchain dedicated stuff because it's just...

548
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,400
You're going to be in front of people. You don't have to have the same fucking conversation.

549
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,880
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's the other thing I've been thinking like,

550
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,960
because I've done a bit of networking, a bit more networking, which I know I've been mentioning,

551
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:47,800
like a fucking boring guy on this recently. But again, a lot of that is more traditional fintech

552
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,680
stuff. And that's very hit and miss. It's all very, very long play stuff where you're just basically

553
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,840
trying... You're talking to people because at some point, you're going to talk to somebody who

554
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,040
has an interest in what you do and they'll mention you to somebody else who might be useful.

555
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,120
That's how all networking works. And you might be able to help them and they might be able to help

556
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:09,640
you. Cool. But it's going to be via one step of remove. But even in those situations, a huge amount

557
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,360
of time, you're trying to explain... I don't know. It's not like people don't understand what crypto

558
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:20,120
is and what you can do with it now. It's just that the use case that's going to allow you to work

559
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:26,120
together with somebody is still super fucking unclear. Sure. And so you get... Right. Okay.

560
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,280
In a nutshell, it is this. It's then a lot of scenarios, crypto is boring now. That's it.

561
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,280
Well, yeah. I'm guessing all those guys are talking stables and they're talking the same

562
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,640
shit we've been making fun of. Yeah, exactly. So you're kind of like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not only

563
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,200
do you work in crypto and they're like, yeah, yeah, stablecoins. Yeah, I know. And you go like,

564
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,600
oh, well, mainly we're on the infrastructure side and they go, yeah, okay, cool. So even fucking

565
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:55,640
nerdy or more boring, great, fucking amazing. Because we're going to go and get into infrastructure,

566
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,800
the least profitable bit of it. No, we're going to go and launch a stablecoin because that's

567
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,840
profitable. So you're kind of like in the, you know, in the traditional Vintech circles that

568
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,920
you're just like, they're like, cool, you have no knowledge that we care about because we're going

569
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,880
to pay somebody else for that consultancy. We'll pay one of the big four accounting consultancy firms

570
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,800
to find... I mean, it doesn't matter. Dread up an intern who can tell us what a theorem is, you know?

571
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,320
You're never going to run nodes for those teams anyway. Exactly. It's not like you're...

572
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,800
As an infrastructure provider, you're not doing anything for that. Unless... And you're not going

573
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:32,040
to be... Clearly, you don't want to get into the business of... Yeah. And the other sort of stuff

574
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,720
we do, which is all fun on the smart contract development side, like obviously, again, they're

575
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:43,400
going to go to McKinsey or whoever. Sure. Yeah. So you're just like, well, look, a lot of the way

576
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:48,360
this stuff works in the wild is like small businesses and small technology companies who

577
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,160
are providers and that's broadly covers all of us independent validators, right? But you can't...

578
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:58,920
Not only can you kind of not play at the big table, but also it's just not even the same.

579
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:04,520
You're not even in the same business, really. So you're kind of cross-purposes. Whereas if you

580
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,560
go to like an actual crypto conference where it's at least... You're just going to encounter

581
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,520
lots of people who understand, oh, yeah, fine. You can actually run a pretty big,

582
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,520
validated company on five people. Yeah, okay, fine. So that's credible. It's all about the

583
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:24,040
credibility of your work or whatever it might be. And it's just a very different vibe when people

584
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,040
understand how different the sector is, I suppose, in terms of what expectations around everything

585
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:33,800
are. Maybe it would be my... Yeah. The long and short bit anyway is that ETHCC isn't fucking can

586
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,760
and it's in the summer. It's going to be long. Oh, is it? Oh, man. Yes. It's in the French Riviera

587
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:46,120
in the middle of summer. It is also, crucially, the week before my holiday, which is also in

588
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:53,240
France to go watch the Tour de France and then go do some shit in France. So I'm like, this is great.

589
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:58,120
I get three weeks in France. Oh, this is pretty interesting, actually. So this is the last week

590
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:04,360
in June into the first of July in Cannes. Oh, yeah, baby. Maybe turn this into a family thing.

591
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:11,560
Yeah, that's why I'm literally... I'm going to go back to France up to

592
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:18,120
Lille to see the first two stages of the Tour de France and then maybe head back to the South of

593
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,680
France. It's going to be great. That's interesting. Yeah, I started putting some dates together

594
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:28,440
out in the shit for next year. See what the hell's going on. It could get some accommodation on the

595
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,600
go. I think there's another... From memory, there's another conference around that sort of time in

596
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:38,600
France as well, but I can't remember what it is. One's enough. One's enough, dear God.

597
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:45,400
Hey, look, look. Some of us really shout the bed on doing the right networking last year

598
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,000
and really need to get back on the BD in a big way and back on the horse.

599
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:57,640
Everything, everything is done. Speed 100 was zero. That's it. You might have noticed the theme.

600
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,120
I'm like, do you remember that? Do you remember when Charlie Sheen went mental in the early 2010s?

601
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:10,680
And he's like, I have one speed. Go. Fucking tiger blood. Exactly. That's the energy I'm going for.

602
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:18,360
All right. Did you say go or blow? Go. Epic winning. Do you remember? Do you remember the song?

603
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,480
Whatever it takes. There was the song where it was like, are you bipolar? I'm by winning.

604
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:30,120
Win here, win there, win, win everywhere, winner. Do you remember that? No. It was just like,

605
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,080
it was just his voice, auto-tube, basically, with all the insane stuff he said. And it was like,

606
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,680
awesome. I'll find a link for the show notes. I can't even remember who made it.

607
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,880
But I know I'm going to have it in my head all week if I listen to it again.

608
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,720
There's a shit little planning already for this conference in June of next year.

609
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:50,920
Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry.

610
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:55,320
What's the name of that conference? Oh, the CCC.

611
00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:03,000
Where is it? France. France. I love this one. That's too far away.

612
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,600
Dude, everything's far away. What do you want? Come on.

613
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,840
That's every center of crypto. Other than me coming there and sleeping in a couch,

614
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,160
that is literally the only thing that's probably going to happen.

615
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,680
Welcome anytime. I got a lot of gardening that needs doing. You can help me.

616
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:27,240
I mean, this is fucking. Go cut that for me. You're tall.

617
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:28,840
We can start at Jay's.

618
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:29,640
It's those high branches.

619
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:31,480
Hey. Yeah.

620
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,240
You're tall. Go get those high branches.

621
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:37,640
Sit on my shoulders and get that high shit. You'd crush me. You're a fucking.

622
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,280
That's funny. Yeah.

623
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,400
I know there's so much in Asia. I mean, I understand. There's so much in EP this year,

624
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,360
both from SmartCon and also DevCon. And just there was so much there.

625
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,720
I saw a smarts with you from Hong Kong.

626
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,560
Yeah. Yeah. I was on Hong Kong.

627
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:56,600
It's just fucking.

628
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,800
It was just, there was like, and they're all like two weeks or three weeks spread across.

629
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,320
Like it's just too much. Like it was just too much. So I was going to go to one of them.

630
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,640
I went to none of them. And so maybe next year we'll see kind of where things rotate to.

631
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,560
It's a lot of investment to get out there, isn't it?

632
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:12,920
It's just not so much.

633
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,600
It's not so much time as well.

634
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,840
It's not that it's not so much the money. It's just the time. Like you're,

635
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,160
because you really are going for a week no matter what and then or more.

636
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,800
And it's just such a haul and time zones and everything else.

637
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:34,360
Also without like being a fucking killjoy as somebody who kind of relatively rigorously

638
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:40,600
tries to budget their carbon. I'm like, I basically get one set of long haul flights

639
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,920
every night, maybe four or five years. Like that's the most I can justify.

640
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:50,200
And it's like that's got to be on a family holiday or linked to a family holiday.

641
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,600
And so it has to be like, I don't know tough times.

642
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,680
When it's when it's a really fucking long way away, it is a bit of a

643
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,680
fucking what? I don't think your carbon out of the carbon matters anymore.

644
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:11,000
Yeah. I decided I don't eat. I don't eat meat basically other than pepperoni on pizza.

645
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:17,640
I don't own a car and I don't fly all for that reason. Like I'm not telling everybody.

646
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,640
Look, I don't, I don't fucking tell anybody else like you can't do this. You can't whatever.

647
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:28,040
But they come there. Look, dude, there's going to come a time when you're going to get asked

648
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:33,320
about it as an old man and you just be like, well, how much carbon did you save in 2024?

649
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,200
You old prick. Well, I'll just all of it, son. Hey, I've got soul.

650
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:44,120
All of it. Yeah. So I've had sort of since I bought this house. Yeah. But it doesn't matter.

651
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:49,160
Does it do anything? Yeah. Even in the UK, it's pretty substantial in terms of what it reduces.

652
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,720
You're well, it's the two things that are bigger, like obviously reducing the amount you take off

653
00:55:53,720 --> 00:56:01,880
the grid and also insulation is the big thing here, right? Like solar's sexy, but just insulating

654
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,520
your house better, like replacing all the windows with double glazed or that shit. That's like big.

655
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,720
Right. You'd be better off with like a thousand little hydro turbines on the roof to catch the

656
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:17,720
fucking rain as it comes in. Yeah. So you should use some wind, little wind turbines some people

657
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:23,160
have that also ground source heat pumps are a thing. You don't have the room for that though,

658
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:28,120
right? Yeah. Do you draw straight down? You can do that stuff even on. So in the UK,

659
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:35,400
you own the ground under your house, like just on. So you can just drill. It's more of the cost.

660
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,000
The cost isn't worth it. It's ridiculous. Plus you got to get a crane in your backyard and shit

661
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,960
like you're never going to do it. I think the rigs that you need are actually like smaller

662
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,920
than you might think now, but yeah, it's still relatively un-economical for a small house.

663
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:57,320
The payback period is like long, is my understanding. We have just fuck loads of sunshine here.

664
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:04,280
Actually, Brisbane rains quite a lot of noticed. There's thunderstorms quite often. Last night,

665
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:10,760
on this beautiful day today. And by the way, I'm getting rid of chat by Rama saying,

666
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:16,520
can't drive or fly or drive a car because of carbon. Yeah, it has a bunch of guitars and

667
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:22,760
things behind it. Yeah, it's true. Rama's flaming you hard in the comments. Almost everything here

668
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:28,280
is like at the risk of sound like the fucking true hipster I am. Some of it's from before I was born.

669
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:36,440
It's all secondhand. Again, I try not to buy things that are not what's it called.

670
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:43,560
And I don't try and buy too much new shit. There's already the fucking rare earth metals

671
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:49,000
and a mobile phone, a bad enough. I don't necessarily need all that shit.

672
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:55,080
So, like I said, it's just my opinion, man. Whatever.

673
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,840
What's your carbon budget for your cloud services?

674
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,720
Well, we just try. Do you get a report from AWS monthly?

675
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,160
You do have reports of that.

676
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:13,240
So, actually, I do look into the CSR of the providers we use and try to use any providers

677
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:21,560
that have at least something in the column. But our business is strictly fucking no ethical

678
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,360
consumption of the capitalism. And the fact that we even run these blockchains is like a

679
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:31,240
massive fucking net negative. It's very, very hard to justify. And that's a fair point. And it's

680
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:37,880
one I don't think I can really... The only thing truly ethical response to the sector that we work

681
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,600
in would be to not fucking work in it. Well, yeah. I mean, you could work anywhere. You just have to

682
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,000
fucking sit at home in a bucket. No, but this one is especially useless.

683
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,680
You could literally only work in tree planting.

684
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,160
Tree planting is also a bad example because tree planting doesn't particularly help, but that's a

685
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:06,360
whole lot of things. Tools pressed out of dirt.

686
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:13,160
But in a very limited sense, what you could do is try and make money in blockchain, buy up

687
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:18,360
marginal farmland and take it out of production. That would be actually quite good.

688
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,120
Take farmland out of production?

689
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:25,480
Yeah, take marginal farmland out of production because it becomes a carbon sink.

690
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,760
In the UK, we're obviously like, we'd have a lot of land. And so we're very big on using

691
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,880
marginal somewhat unproductive farmland, like just bloody-mindedly finding a way of making

692
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:44,440
any money off of it. And it's mad because the property... You end up doing loads of farming

693
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:50,520
on land that's actually just not very suited for it. And it's why the highland clearances happened

694
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:54,680
and all that kind of shit, like the kind of mini genocide in Scotland and like the...

695
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:59,560
Would have been the early 19th century by landowners and all that kind of stuff because

696
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,240
they finally had a sheep that was hard enough to use on land that previously you couldn't

697
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,880
do anything with. And so they went, wow, bam, loads and loads of sheep. And then it just massively,

698
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:12,680
massively degrades the land because the land is basically not suitable for that anyway.

699
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:20,680
But these places, the effect of agriculture on them is disproportionately bad, basically.

700
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,840
It doesn't even make much money. So there's a lot of places in England where that is the case.

701
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:31,000
And it results in a big degradation in terms of not only biodiversity, but also it has a knock-on

702
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,080
effect on carbon and whatever as well. Because you get all these things like peat and whatnot,

703
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:40,600
any situation where you're like, this is a place where the land would just be doing its thing.

704
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,480
In general, it turns out those are the kind of places which are capturing carbon and kind of

705
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,920
trying to keep a lid on the thing. And if you're just like, no, I must fucking graze my five sheep,

706
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:56,920
this one kilometer of land, five sheep can do a lot of damage to even a wide area.

707
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:02,520
You're not making any money off of it. But that's a whole other, and that doesn't really,

708
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:07,880
that's like whatever, Matt. Hey, geez, we got deep there.

709
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:08,680
Yeah.

710
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:10,360
Fucking picking on five sheep.

711
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:19,800
My other half is also used to work in like a food supply chain stuff.

712
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:25,640
And now works in sustainability as well. So this is like just via osmosis. I've

713
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:32,280
heard a lot of random things. So end up with opinions because once or twice a year,

714
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:37,080
I'm like, hey, recommend me something that I should read to understand more about.

715
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,560
And you read a book and you're like, Jesus Christ. Oh my God.

716
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,240
To get pissed off at or feel bad about.

717
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:49,080
What else are we in natural earth that I don't know about that'll keep me up at night?

718
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,960
Here's one that really shitted me. Right. I read, so at the moment I'm reading the Master

719
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:00,680
in Commander series, right? And the descriptions of like the number of birds that there were and

720
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,680
shit. Like this is something I can't remember what book it was. I was reading like an old book

721
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,120
and it described like these big flocks of birds in Northern England. And I was like,

722
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:13,720
I was like, dude, fucking a big flock, like a hundred birds. Are you fucking kidding me?

723
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:17,560
I've never seen other than pigeons. I've never seen a hundred fucking birds together in one go

724
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:24,360
in the north of England ever. And I basically looked it up. So I didn't look it up. I got

725
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:29,960
given a book that I read on essentially biodiversity. And I was like, oh, shit. It's literally

726
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:34,280
since the Second World War. Like in Britain, like the bird populations just fucking collapsed

727
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:39,720
because of the way we do farming, essentially. And I was like, oh my God, like the insane

728
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:44,200
thing is literally in my lifetime, it's decreased massively. So like if I'd gone for a walk on a

729
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:48,520
Sunday as a kid, I just seem like way more birds and all that kind of stuff. And it's super bizarre.

730
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:53,240
Like the numbers are really fucking crazy. You know, citation needed a bit less so in other

731
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:58,840
places where they're more land, more wild spaces. It's really noticeable in France, actually. You

732
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:03,640
see so many more wild birds like in the mountains or by the sea or whatever. You're like, wow,

733
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:08,280
bigger country. It's a wine. It's the wine, the birds will pissed or people will pissed.

734
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:13,960
Where was the fucking topic? Fucking carbon. I was saying why I'm not gonna a pack. Yeah,

735
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:20,600
anywhere in Europe though. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we'll figure it out. We're gonna make it happen.

736
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:26,760
Yeah, I mean, like, we said this last year, although we I saw you last year that no,

737
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:32,200
yeah, I can't pass letter. No, last year. Yeah, 23. I haven't seen you 24. Right. But I did see no

738
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:37,640
on 24. So I mean, we're doing 50 50. So you fucking two months ago, Jackass, I saw you the

739
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:42,040
start of the year. Oh, yeah. No, you're right. It's both of you this year. That's right. Jesus.

740
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:47,160
I was thinking I was thinking conferences. I know we had pizza. That's because I was there.

741
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,760
No, I was thinking I was in my head. I was thinking just conferences. Like when you were in any of

742
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:55,160
these conferences, but obviously, yeah, yeah, it's a shame because I mean, to be fair, like for all

743
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:00,280
my complaint from like, this is what I mean about like, I fucking I like Denver, Denver's great.

744
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,560
I would I would absolutely come to eat Denver. If I wasn't, you know, beat myself up about a shit.

745
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:11,160
So you know, hey, what's it on your bike? Start an early fucking bicycle trip. See you in three

746
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,400
weeks. Just pay them back. All these airlines offer that you can go pay those carbon credits back.

747
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,640
That's all make believe shit. You can do that. It's a scam. I know it is. I know it's a scam.

748
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:23,960
I looked into it. It's a scam. Apple's doing the same thing. You can use that. You can do

749
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:30,680
it. They can do it. You can do it. No, it's bad. How many kilometers is it across the sea?

750
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,800
Could you keep you call? Obviously, you can't cycle. I'm not an idiot. I'm where there's

751
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:39,560
difference between land and sea. There is. I heard it here first. I get. Yeah, I have a friend

752
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:45,160
that sailed across the Atlantic. Oh, it sounds awful. Yeah. I watched a couple of guys who do

753
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:52,760
that and like, just just it just sounds. It just sounds it just sounds four weeks on this boat in

754
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:57,880
the middle of nowhere. Oh, although now they're basically using, I guess you can. I guess you

755
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:05,480
can use the traveling Starlink now. You pay a pretty high premium to be not overland because I

756
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,160
think there's a smaller number of how those satellites work over the middle of the Atlantic.

757
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:13,400
But now at least there's connectivity where in the past, you just have like a satellite phone

758
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,080
that might do like a small text like here and there, right? You can just say, I'm alive or I'm

759
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:22,760
dead. I'm fucked. But now actually get some pretty decent bandwidth. You have like a, you know,

760
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,640
you have probably a couple hundred megabit back and forth to be sitting there watching YouTube

761
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:30,360
all day. So maybe maybe it's better that way or worse. I don't know. Real-time streaming from the

762
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:36,520
middle of the Atlantic. I mean, that's something you can do the could you could be on a boat. I

763
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:41,240
mean, you could be on a boat and then just be on your bike on the boat. So it's like you're crossing

764
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:50,200
the Atlantic on your bike. You got to keep like a nine not 24 hour a day pace and just say,

765
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,760
I mean, I think what Ryan needs is finish reading the entire Mastering Commander series.

766
01:05:55,480 --> 01:06:02,040
And then, yeah, and then immediately take to the sea. I fucking hate the ocean though.

767
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:08,200
This is all got a bit weird. I just fucking hate the ocean.

768
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:13,080
I like the beach. Fucking ocean though. Why do you hate the ocean? Too big. It's too much.

769
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:19,800
It's too much. Too overwhelming. It's got too big for its bees. Have you ever been sailing? Yeah.

770
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:25,160
Yeah. Not like, not, I would say nothing more than like 20 miles offshore, something like that,

771
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:31,560
20, 30 miles off, which is still pretty far, right? But to be like a thousand miles offshore,

772
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:37,080
that's a long way. That's a long way. I'll do it. Yeah, you do it. Just to get away from the screaming

773
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:43,000
baby. Yeah, if I didn't have to be so fucking connected, man, I'd live in a boat if I had the

774
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,760
money. I'd just go out there. There's a bunch of folks who do that. Like we just might do a

775
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:51,320
crossing or two a year or something like that. It's just like you hear about like they do videos of

776
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,400
it and everything else. There's a couple of guys I watch and then like, like I like that idea and

777
01:06:55,400 --> 01:07:00,760
like, actually spend time watching those, those travels. But man, it's not something I think I

778
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:07,000
could do. I fucking love sailing. I used to race sail yachts over in WA. Yeah. Western Australia.

779
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,920
Yeah. When I lived over there, every, when the fuck did you live in Western Australia?

780
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:19,640
2010. Crazy. Yeah. Like racing boats or like, yeah, like racing yachts. Yeah. It's fucking sick.

781
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:25,720
Two days a week. Go out for twilight racing on Wednesday and like a ocean race on Saturdays.

782
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:30,120
Pretty good. I bet. There's a lot of chapters to Noel's life, aren't there?

783
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,600
Yeah. I didn't even know. I used to row as well. Like, you know, the fucking little,

784
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:39,880
little boats or the long arse wars, skulls. Yeah. I used to row. I used to row competition.

785
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,760
You know, back when I was fucking. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, back before you became a

786
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:55,960
valedictor DJ and went to shit. Back before I fucking, you know, drank beer six days a week.

787
01:07:55,960 --> 01:08:06,120
Can't, can't, can't, can't. Yeah. Fuck it. Just over and over. Well, anyway, if you see,

788
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:13,400
make it happen. Yeah. Game of nose. You just gotta get no out of the, out of the shit. There must

789
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:16,920
be, there must be some other conferences about happening, but I haven't looked up any others

790
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:22,120
apart from you. But probably we'll do a couple of those. I feel like there's a lot of the French

791
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:27,720
validators that don't like me that much and it's likely they'll be there. So there'll be a lot

792
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,960
of people that will be there, not just French validators. It's only that one anyway, isn't it?

793
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:42,120
It's like what I know. I can tell how many. It's only one I know of.

794
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:49,880
Nah, I just too far. It's funny. Don't speak the language. Come back to the US. Okay. It's

795
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:58,280
closer. Fuck that. How's it closer? I was just saying. I know. No, I want to go to Asia next

796
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:02,440
year. I don't want to go to that part of the world. So you're fucking expensive in America now, man.

797
01:09:02,440 --> 01:09:05,960
It's just outrageous. I do want to drink my kids Asia, but I don't think it's going to be next

798
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:11,640
year. I think they have to be a little bit older. Hey, I'm going to drag the family to Tokyo and

799
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:17,960
maybe either that and China or a China trip or Tokyo or a big thing to do over there now.

800
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:22,440
Right? Go to Tokyo. Yeah. Well, I mean, we go all over the place, but I do want to do that.

801
01:09:22,440 --> 01:09:27,880
I just don't think they're old enough. I think it'll become like I think in the last three years,

802
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:33,560
Americans are really like, it's good to Tokyo. Direct flights, baby. It's good to Japan. Makes a

803
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:38,920
big difference. Yeah. I noticed over in, there's this place called Naseko where I used to go snowboarding.

804
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:47,320
And then like, what is it? The epic pass added that mountain to the epic pass.

805
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:52,280
And then there were fucking Americans everywhere. Oh, is that like something with

806
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,280
places here in the US? No, it's Naseko. Yeah. Yeah. So the epic pass is like, it's an

807
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:05,480
all mountain pass like around the world. Yeah. So they added Japan and then next thing you know,

808
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:10,040
all these fucking. So yeah, it used to just be like Australians and fucking Japanese and a few

809
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:13,880
Europeans. And then like, there was just everywhere. You couldn't fucking throw a rock without hitting

810
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:19,960
an American. Just a bunch of people. And you can hear it, man. It just peaces your ears from down there.

811
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:27,720
Oh my God, look at this fucking fuck off. I can't understand anything. Yeah. Yeah.

812
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:32,600
Can't, wow, look at this fucking, you can go, you can eat at the convenience

813
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:38,600
state. It's just everything. And so like, it just completely ruined that fucking town for me.

814
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:44,360
Americans are awful travelers. They're fucking terrible travelers. They are. They look awkward.

815
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:49,640
They act awkward. They're shocked at fucking everything. Like, oh man, they are, they're

816
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:55,880
terrible. You know what? Do you know what is the worst fucking thing is when you go is when I go to

817
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:01,400
on campus and then because it's like dead center of London. And then I have to go to like a meeting

818
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:06,520
or something directly after and it's like the two nearest tube stations are like probably

819
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:11,240
either Houston or Tottenham Court. May, I guess you can go up to, you can go up to

820
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,800
thingy street as well by the American church, but like it doesn't take you anywhere. So not useful.

821
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:23,320
And like the number of times there is somebody in, I know you like ball caps you serve as I'm

822
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:30,120
sorry about this, but like a ball cap with like an American ship on the front. And then like that's

823
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:35,080
a bloke, right? And he's got sunglasses on. It's England. You don't have sunglasses. You don't

824
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:40,440
have fucking sunglasses in November, mate. And then his wife's there and they are standing fucking

825
01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:46,840
side by side on the escalator on the underground. Do you not understand that was like number one

826
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:53,400
for my kids. Like if you do that, right, going to move the fuck over. Yeah, I don't care if you're

827
01:11:53,400 --> 01:12:00,440
70 lady, I will push you down this escalator. This is the Piccadilly line. You learn if you live near

828
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:09,000
London that that is 33 meters down. Just where 33 meters to the bottom of this fucking hole. Like

829
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,960
wearing awkward shorts with a tucked in shirt, the whole, like the whole thing, right? High socks,

830
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:19,960
everything. Yeah, your short sleeve shirt, short sleeve shirt. It was a short sleeve,

831
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:26,440
shorts, hot shirt. Socks are almost touching the knees. Fuck it. No, he had to ride that ride that

832
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:31,560
left rail. He had chinos on. He had chinos on to be fair. How much is uptown?

833
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,960
It was one of those. I was just like, I was like, do you know what these guys look the same when I

834
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:42,760
used to come to London to see my aunt when I was like four years old, right? They're the worst.

835
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:48,840
And I was like, how, how is the outfit stayed the same for my entire life? Like that's, that's

836
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:54,280
over 30 years, right? It's still the same outfit at nearly the same tube stop where I used to go,

837
01:12:54,280 --> 01:13:01,000
you know, with my aunt. And I see the same fucking guy standing on the left. I'm like,

838
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:06,440
crazy. This is where you walk. This is where you walk. This is where you walk. We're gonna have

839
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:12,040
to fucking kill this guy. There's like 15 people just going to push and push and push and push.

840
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:16,440
Yeah, fucking push him. I gotta learn. Welcome to earth. You gotta learn. That's why.

841
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:22,440
Yeah, Will Smith in Independence Day. I mean, that's why we said, we said drive on the,

842
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:29,080
on the Autobahn, like in Germany and, and even this was like 10 years ago. And I would,

843
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,440
I would still be scared because we'd be fucking hauling ass on the left and we have good left,

844
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:38,920
right lane management. Don't get me wrong. But the number of cars that would make bad decisions

845
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:43,560
in those situations was bad even then. And I hear it's even worse now. And that could be not

846
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,200
necessarily American driving, but you have all sorts of different folks on that that don't

847
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:51,160
understand or recognize the, the rules in those situations. You could fucking easy to get killed

848
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:57,240
in that situation. Yep. Right in that left rail. Just run that left rail, baby. Let's go.

849
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:03,960
Dear anyway. Yeah. Minor complaint. Anyway, sorry. There's, you know, Americans, Americans are

850
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:09,320
lovely people. They are. They travel horribly though. Like they really do. They like, that

851
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:14,280
totally makes sense. I don't know. They, you know, like whenever you go somewhere, somewhere in Europe

852
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:20,520
and to just bring everything back neatly to layer cake, because obviously everything is just layer

853
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:26,600
cake. You know, there's that scene where it has like the wannabe gangsters in like Amsterdam.

854
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:31,480
And they're just like, come on, Kev fucking come over here, mate. Have some X. Have some

855
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:38,360
equies. Let's fucking go. Yes, mate. And like the number of times you're just in Europe somewhere

856
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:47,640
and you just hear some variant of that. And you're just like, I'm not here. Just we love

857
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:58,920
the prey. Just we love prey in on France. Yeah. Oh man. Just shrink up into a little ball. Anyway,

858
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:03,560
has there been any fucking crypto news other than, you know, Trump won possibly the end of

859
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:09,400
Europe end of NATO, but crypto coins are up coins are up, baby. Live forever, baby.

860
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:16,680
Bitcoin at 90,000. Let's go fucking go sell before the inauguration when, when the economy tanks,

861
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:22,120
huh? That's gonna take a couple years. It's gonna take a couple years. That's the sound of optimism

862
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:29,960
that we like to hear. It'll take a little takes a little time for or brashness to turn into. Oh,

863
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:35,320
shit, that happened. Yeah, we'll see. No, news are up. We I think we did actually have an article

864
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:40,360
from our news researcher this week. Oh, there might be me sticking something in. Oh, is that you?

865
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:47,000
Oh, okay. Oh, this Vitalea city thing. I just thought this around like I would I can't remember

866
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:52,360
what linked me to this thing. It's like this. It's a city on a city. I know it's actually a city

867
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:57,240
technically, but I guess you know, it's a physical location. Yeah, it's on an island in the Caribbean.

868
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:04,680
It's in Honduras somewhere. It's in Honduras. That's what it was. So this thing, this thing was

869
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:09,320
like some sort of a little link in a show notes to a bunch of things. I looked at that today. I read

870
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:13,080
it for like half an hour trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I almost made an account.

871
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:18,840
I almost made an account because I like I want to see what these things are. But it is a it is a

872
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:23,240
what was the what's the tagline? I forget what the hell the tagline is, but it's a

873
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:31,000
it's a making that optional making that option. And of course it involves crypto. And I was like,

874
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:35,720
this is real 2021 vibes. It makes me excited. Maybe maybe there is a bull coming.

875
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:41,720
But that's only one property as part of the larger thing. But the larger thing I

876
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:47,560
think is you then I read that it was like on an island in the Caribbean that you could buy your spot.

877
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:54,520
The idea was that you it is a location in a city. Well, it's on a state of mind. It's

878
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:58,040
it's clearly a state of mind. But the idea was that they're building a new

879
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:04,920
a new life that has everything from governance to government to taxes,

880
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:13,160
VCs, transportation, healthcare across the whole board, energy creation, all this type of stuff,

881
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:18,520
where the friction to get things done is gone. And it's an entrepreneurial blah, blah, blah,

882
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:23,400
create a new way. Let's build a new government type of structure and a new way of doing that.

883
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,800
And it seemed like all it was doing was bringing like it was like a circus bringing the sounds

884
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:32,760
like it like just shenanigan after shenanigan. And one of those I think one of those not

885
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:37,960
then the whole thing of it was this idea that everybody can live to live forever.

886
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:43,240
Right. And so we're going we want to be able to allow without FDA approval and all this type

887
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,760
stuff we're going to find we're going to work hard to find the drugs everybody can live forever.

888
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:51,480
That's literally what it was. I think you're on mute. But yeah, so I think basically yeah.

889
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:57,800
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So because because not everything dies, like as we forget throw that throw that

890
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:01,640
old knowledge out. Everything dies. No way. All those cryptocurrencies that have died,

891
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,960
all the evidence, all the evidence. I don't know how the crypto thing. Well, crypto was a big piece

892
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,880
of it too. Because the one thing we know in crypto is that nothing's forever, dude, right?

893
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:18,200
Especially if you rug pull the retail investors and then invest the profits in an island nation

894
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:24,920
in the Caribbean. Yeah, there was. And it was like how to yes, it was and then you had a but it's

895
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:30,040
only like $359 a start. You could just do it. That's how you become a member. I think it was

896
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:33,480
a member to be able to do that. And there was like a bunch of things like VCs and all this kind of

897
01:18:33,480 --> 01:18:39,800
stuff that but I did find an activity page where it showed like every single post. And it was like

898
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:42,760
over the last 10 years or something or the last couple of years, two years or whatever it was,

899
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:47,560
there's a bunch of posts. It was like the last 30 days, nothing. It was like it was dead. So

900
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:53,320
maybe it's already maybe it's already. I've just been flicking through the the guests for the

901
01:18:53,320 --> 01:19:02,040
fireside chats and I have seen two people that I know to some degree. And somebody, one of them

902
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:07,800
is writing about how great it is. And so now I feel now I feel weird because this is like the

903
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,400
weird. You know, when you're like, you're like joking about a thing. And then you remember

904
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:17,480
that this is like, we are so, so adjacent to this that it's actually like taking the piss out of it.

905
01:19:17,480 --> 01:19:25,720
You're a little bit like, am I taking the piss out of myself? Possibly? Yes. Yes. Are we all in

906
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:34,120
on this joke? Is it a joke? Is it performance art? I didn't know. I also love how actually I now

907
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:39,560
open this website. I didn't scroll down. This is amazing. There's a guy, Anna, like answering

908
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:44,120
questions at some kind of an event. And behind him, it says, what is your favorite part of the

909
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:50,920
startup city? Amazing startup city. That's what it was. Yeah. But the whole thing is like Vivaldi

910
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:56,360
or something. I forget the whole thing is called, but it's Vitalia. I swear this idea. I was reading

911
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:04,680
this. I fucking swear I had this idea, this same idea back in 1995 when I was on mushrooms. I fucking

912
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:11,560
swear I thought about this. You kick it out that you just knocked it on the head. No, not the death

913
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:16,040
part. Put the other part of like, why couldn't we have this thing that comes together and like get

914
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:20,040
rid of all this red tape and like just let it go and see what happens and blah, blah, blah. And like,

915
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,880
it was kind of the idea of like, I think when Microsoft had a, they were putting data centers

916
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:28,920
in containers and bearing with the bottom of the ocean or something like that. I was like, yeah,

917
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:34,920
let's do that. But like, let's make a city that has so much of shit like that. I fucking swear

918
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:42,760
this is the same idea. See, my mind is too tight. Like before I was free and now this looks silly

919
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:48,520
to me. Maybe we can't be death. Do we live forever? Dude, they fucking, they accept fear currency.

920
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:52,440
And they say they're the city of the future. It says the bottom of the page. Hey, you gotta,

921
01:20:52,440 --> 01:20:58,520
we appreciate donations in fear. Well, no, I'm out. I'm out, man. Hey, you got to get there.

922
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,760
You could, baby steps to get there. You got to start with something.

923
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:04,920
They only accept, they only accept at least according to the bottom of the page,

924
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:13,400
ERC 20 or fear, which proves more than a fucking shadow of a doubt that Ethereum is the true

925
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:19,560
boomer coin. Oh, it totally is. It's literally fear or ERC 20 shitcoins. Like that's it. Those

926
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:26,840
are the two fucking, they're both in ETFs now. It's like using your pension. We accept, we will

927
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:32,280
conquer death using the contents of your pension, which is ERC 20 coins or fear currency.

928
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:39,400
How much do you know is it to live forever? Juno is infinitely worthless. That's

929
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:45,960
meaning it already lives forever. And most importantly, yet I ever got the else actually.

930
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:52,040
How much Juno is it to live forever? Dude, what's that quote about like nothing that's

931
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:59,640
truly useless can be truly beautiful because it has no purpose proves that that is bullshit.

932
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:05,960
Juno is useless and it is beautiful. I can't understand anybody who wants to live together

933
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,040
forever. That sounds like an awful, awful existence. Yeah, it's madness, isn't it?

934
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:14,120
It sounds awful. Like how many, how many gamer nodes episodes would it be? It'll just be forever.

935
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:22,600
I think people who want to live forever are people who maybe haven't got out enough and

936
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:26,840
certainly have not felt their lower back go beginning to go because they've had to pick

937
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:32,120
up a toddler too much. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, everybody on that site is single. There's no

938
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:38,680
doubt about that. That's what's 100%. Like that, you know, if you're paying $359 to be part of a

939
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:46,200
club in a make believe in a real location in a make believe land to allow, get rid of

940
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:50,280
governance or government approvals to be able to get to a point where you can live forever.

941
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:56,760
You are single. So, okay, right. All right. But we were just talking about events to go to next year.

942
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:02,680
Gamer nodes meet up. I'm just saying right there. Just saying for two months in January to February

943
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:10,360
2025, Vitalia opens its doors with our second pop up city, giving a two times larger community

944
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:17,320
than last time 1000 plus people to continue seeding permanent longevity biotech hub with

945
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:23,480
fresh talent co creators and new friends from around the world. This is the biotech podcast.

946
01:23:23,480 --> 01:23:32,360
We should be there. Game of game of buy whatever anyway, but the point is like we

947
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:39,400
you know, we got a great biotech and we kind of know crypto from the beaches in Honduras. We're 50%

948
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:45,000
there. We're 50% that's what we're basically bioengineers. And for two months, we could be on a

949
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:54,440
beach and 20% in this market. But I'm just saying it technically as a conference, it's

950
01:23:54,440 --> 01:24:15,320
expandable. $500. What could go wrong?