WEBVTT 00:00:01.573 --> 00:00:03.339 Oh, shit. 00:00:24.521 --> 00:00:25.341 Welcome to Game of Nodes, 00:00:25.422 --> 00:00:27.022 a weekly podcast from 00:00:27.763 --> 00:00:29.324 Independent Validator Teams. 00:00:29.585 --> 00:00:33.426 Once you check in, you can never leave. 00:00:33.487 --> 00:00:35.548 How's it going, lads? 00:00:35.607 --> 00:00:36.088 How's it going? 00:00:36.569 --> 00:00:37.009 How's it going? 00:00:37.289 --> 00:00:37.389 Well, 00:00:37.408 --> 00:00:38.810 you're just talking before the show 00:00:38.829 --> 00:00:39.549 about how you've been 00:00:39.590 --> 00:00:40.570 getting actual sleep. 00:00:40.750 --> 00:00:43.811 So if you stake for Big Ball's blockchain, 00:00:44.393 --> 00:00:45.593 you're going to be A-OK. 00:00:46.433 --> 00:00:48.634 CTO slash CEO of the company 00:00:48.674 --> 00:00:52.676 is well rested and ready for action. 00:00:52.837 --> 00:00:53.116 Yeah. 00:00:54.502 --> 00:00:57.143 Well, you know, there is, of course, 00:00:57.204 --> 00:00:57.844 PagerDuty. 00:01:01.027 --> 00:01:05.310 If your baby lets you get 00:01:05.349 --> 00:01:06.590 seven hours of sleep a night, 00:01:06.631 --> 00:01:09.152 chances are PagerDuty will not. 00:01:09.191 --> 00:01:10.173 Well, one night. 00:01:10.192 --> 00:01:11.474 I don't know if we could 00:01:11.513 --> 00:01:13.034 call that a regular occurrence yet. 00:01:14.296 --> 00:01:15.576 Yeah. 00:01:16.457 --> 00:01:17.819 Maybe he was just having a 00:01:17.858 --> 00:01:19.799 really good dream that night about the, 00:01:19.859 --> 00:01:22.441 you know, restaking. 00:01:26.600 --> 00:01:28.542 Schiltzy, how's Eigenlayer going? 00:01:29.222 --> 00:01:30.903 I think you're validated there, 00:01:30.924 --> 00:01:32.265 aren't you? 00:01:32.284 --> 00:01:32.965 I didn't realize you called 00:01:32.986 --> 00:01:33.745 yourself an Eigenlayer. 00:01:33.766 --> 00:01:38.629 That's right. 00:01:38.670 --> 00:01:39.090 Oh, hang on. 00:01:39.290 --> 00:01:41.070 I have to run downstairs for a second. 00:01:45.814 --> 00:01:46.034 Wow. 00:01:46.515 --> 00:01:49.576 Level of professionalism. 00:01:49.677 --> 00:01:51.998 I'm sorry about that, Schilt. 00:01:52.039 --> 00:01:53.180 How is Eigenlayer going? 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:54.040 I'm interested. 00:01:54.221 --> 00:01:54.760 I'm still here. 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:58.959 I mean, it's not, 00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:00.379 I can layer remains bullshit. 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:01.920 Like what is there to say? 00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:04.161 There's they turn on inflation, 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:06.802 but it's just like ICS 00:02:06.861 --> 00:02:08.042 where there's a bunch of 00:02:08.062 --> 00:02:09.182 people jumping into things 00:02:09.223 --> 00:02:10.562 and no one gets rewards. 00:02:10.962 --> 00:02:18.164 So it's just as expected. 00:02:18.224 --> 00:02:20.205 So, uh, yeah. 00:02:20.346 --> 00:02:20.945 Okay, cool. 00:02:21.086 --> 00:02:22.387 Well, I mean, that was kind of predictable, 00:02:22.447 --> 00:02:26.707 wasn't it in the end, but, um, 00:02:29.531 --> 00:02:30.211 I don't think what I've seen 00:02:30.271 --> 00:02:32.375 in this last week, crypto news. 00:02:32.955 --> 00:02:34.419 So I can layer whatever. 00:02:36.282 --> 00:02:39.105 I saw that Henry from Penumbra, 00:02:39.165 --> 00:02:40.908 who has been on the show before, 00:02:41.777 --> 00:02:43.098 I posted a thing about payment links, 00:02:43.118 --> 00:02:44.100 which is pretty interesting. 00:02:45.762 --> 00:02:47.804 I followed up with him on a 00:02:47.843 --> 00:02:48.664 couple of questions about 00:02:48.705 --> 00:02:50.347 some of the local state stuff. 00:02:51.367 --> 00:02:52.068 Local state stuff? 00:02:52.088 --> 00:02:53.150 Or was it local ZK stuff? 00:02:53.890 --> 00:02:54.371 I can't remember. 00:02:54.450 --> 00:02:55.151 It's quite late here. 00:02:56.112 --> 00:02:58.254 And he was very kind in 00:02:58.294 --> 00:02:59.296 providing some links, 00:02:59.417 --> 00:03:00.897 some stuff that I got to read. 00:03:01.179 --> 00:03:01.359 But... 00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:03.760 Yeah, 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:05.081 the payment link stuff looks pretty 00:03:05.122 --> 00:03:06.662 interesting as a design thing. 00:03:07.103 --> 00:03:09.663 I mean, just back to the thing of like, 00:03:09.943 --> 00:03:10.723 I just continue to be 00:03:10.764 --> 00:03:11.743 impressed by the 00:03:12.625 --> 00:03:13.544 engineering and thought 00:03:13.585 --> 00:03:17.967 that goes into Penumbra as a project. 00:03:18.046 --> 00:03:18.326 I mean, 00:03:20.508 --> 00:03:21.429 every time I've interacted with 00:03:21.468 --> 00:03:22.989 Henry or anyone on the Penumbra team, 00:03:23.028 --> 00:03:23.969 it's always been a really 00:03:23.990 --> 00:03:24.590 good interaction. 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:27.759 maybe more from my side than their side, 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:28.621 because I'm always blown 00:03:28.661 --> 00:03:29.762 away because they're really smart, 00:03:30.081 --> 00:03:30.641 but I have no idea what 00:03:30.662 --> 00:03:31.362 they're actually saying. 00:03:31.402 --> 00:03:32.223 So I'm like, wow, 00:03:32.242 --> 00:03:33.324 they're doing such cool things. 00:03:34.305 --> 00:03:34.965 I don't really know what's 00:03:34.985 --> 00:03:35.626 actually going on. 00:03:36.947 --> 00:03:39.247 Yeah, it do be a bit like that. 00:03:41.610 --> 00:03:45.051 So, yeah. 00:03:45.111 --> 00:03:46.133 Null, to summarize, 00:03:46.473 --> 00:03:47.713 Null is now back from the 00:03:47.753 --> 00:03:49.534 toilet or wherever. 00:03:51.877 --> 00:03:53.098 I can let someone in the 00:03:53.138 --> 00:03:55.118 door if you wanted to know. 00:03:57.622 --> 00:03:57.961 I don't have an 00:03:58.081 --> 00:03:59.562 automatically opening front door. 00:03:59.802 --> 00:04:00.763 I had to go down and open it. 00:04:00.782 --> 00:04:04.804 I feel like now I need more explanation. 00:04:06.384 --> 00:04:08.724 Yeah, it's a classic. 00:04:09.526 --> 00:04:10.925 Someone was knocking on the door. 00:04:10.966 --> 00:04:12.105 I had to go down and open it 00:04:12.445 --> 00:04:15.826 to let them in. 00:04:15.926 --> 00:04:17.427 Okay. 00:04:17.548 --> 00:04:18.987 Yeah, well, 00:04:19.028 --> 00:04:20.288 does that not happen at your house? 00:04:22.593 --> 00:04:23.353 it's just the wording is 00:04:23.374 --> 00:04:24.415 kind of strange like it 00:04:24.454 --> 00:04:24.954 makes me wonder like 00:04:24.995 --> 00:04:26.295 there's a delivery and you 00:04:26.315 --> 00:04:26.896 just kind of like let 00:04:26.915 --> 00:04:29.197 people delivery people kind 00:04:29.216 --> 00:04:30.838 of let free reign or is it 00:04:31.478 --> 00:04:32.038 no it's someone who's 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.680 visiting okay got it that 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:36.060 makes more sense all right 00:04:36.081 --> 00:04:37.281 okay sorry a visitor came I 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:38.122 had to come and let them in 00:04:38.562 --> 00:04:40.583 got it all right okay 00:04:40.663 --> 00:04:41.723 random fellow it just 00:04:41.824 --> 00:04:44.024 popped in oh you're 00:04:44.045 --> 00:04:45.505 knocking in you come yeah 00:04:47.824 --> 00:04:49.526 yeah okay so now now we've 00:04:49.565 --> 00:04:50.466 established the 00:04:51.547 --> 00:04:52.627 idiomatically correct way 00:04:52.646 --> 00:04:53.387 of saying that you have a 00:04:53.427 --> 00:04:56.428 visitor in your house uh 00:04:56.449 --> 00:04:57.529 the summary of the icon 00:04:57.569 --> 00:04:58.910 layer question was it 00:04:58.930 --> 00:05:01.130 remains bullshit I believe 00:05:02.031 --> 00:05:04.233 yeah okay all right well 00:05:04.392 --> 00:05:07.353 yeah I mean having some 00:05:07.533 --> 00:05:08.995 discussions with like 00:05:10.228 --> 00:05:11.468 other networks and some 00:05:11.509 --> 00:05:14.331 protocols that are in development, 00:05:14.432 --> 00:05:16.713 like it comes up more often 00:05:16.754 --> 00:05:17.434 than you would think. 00:05:18.295 --> 00:05:19.156 That would say, oh, 00:05:19.216 --> 00:05:20.757 and at some point we're 00:05:20.776 --> 00:05:22.199 going to introduce 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:23.560 restaking on Eigen layer. 00:05:23.579 --> 00:05:24.761 So you'll need to have a validator there. 00:05:24.781 --> 00:05:25.201 And we're like, huh? 00:05:25.221 --> 00:05:27.043 All right. 00:05:27.103 --> 00:05:30.225 Okay. 00:05:30.245 --> 00:05:31.846 Have you been witnessing the same thing? 00:05:32.206 --> 00:05:35.651 But why other than Eigen 00:05:35.670 --> 00:05:37.211 layer has lots of marketing. 00:05:39.341 --> 00:05:41.201 I haven't researched EigenLayer, 00:05:41.242 --> 00:05:42.863 so I don't know what it does. 00:05:43.543 --> 00:05:47.185 So there you go. 00:05:47.266 --> 00:05:48.326 So the problem is, 00:05:50.668 --> 00:05:52.889 let's say you get a million 00:05:52.910 --> 00:05:54.391 dollars of ETH stake, 00:05:54.451 --> 00:05:55.252 or let's say a hundred million, 00:05:55.271 --> 00:05:55.791 a hundred million dollars 00:05:55.812 --> 00:05:57.012 in ETH stake to you, right? 00:05:57.072 --> 00:05:59.694 That seems like a pretty big number, okay? 00:05:59.714 --> 00:06:00.815 You will be absolutely 00:06:00.935 --> 00:06:02.036 nothing compared to the top 00:06:02.175 --> 00:06:03.396 validators on EigenLayer. 00:06:03.838 --> 00:06:04.478 And so you're going to get 00:06:04.497 --> 00:06:06.738 basically no rewards for it. 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:07.000 So... 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:08.860 Literally, 00:06:08.880 --> 00:06:09.781 a hundred million dollars is 00:06:09.821 --> 00:06:11.822 like point zero one percent 00:06:12.062 --> 00:06:12.982 of this restaked ETH. 00:06:13.101 --> 00:06:16.802 And so there's just not a 00:06:16.822 --> 00:06:19.483 lot of point to participate in it. 00:06:19.524 --> 00:06:21.644 So it's really only for the big boys. 00:06:23.084 --> 00:06:23.483 Correct. 00:06:23.803 --> 00:06:24.105 Yes. 00:06:25.185 --> 00:06:25.584 Gotcha. 00:06:26.425 --> 00:06:27.584 And like, 00:06:27.625 --> 00:06:29.245 what do they do with the restaked 00:06:29.305 --> 00:06:30.005 ETH exactly? 00:06:30.065 --> 00:06:30.985 Like, OK, 00:06:31.005 --> 00:06:33.286 you go and stake your ETH again 00:06:33.966 --> 00:06:34.427 and then what? 00:06:37.565 --> 00:06:38.927 That is what it is. 00:06:38.987 --> 00:06:43.107 So you have like Lido staked ETH, right? 00:06:43.666 --> 00:06:45.127 That's liquid staked. 00:06:45.148 --> 00:06:47.127 And then Eigenlayer takes 00:06:47.148 --> 00:06:48.968 that liquid staked ETH and 00:06:49.007 --> 00:06:50.949 then uses it to secure 00:06:51.428 --> 00:06:52.509 chains that opt into it. 00:06:53.288 --> 00:06:55.149 And then once you... That 00:06:55.228 --> 00:06:57.310 restaking it is why it's 00:06:57.350 --> 00:07:00.170 called restaking it. 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:01.651 That's kind of the end of the story, 00:07:01.930 --> 00:07:02.170 right? 00:07:02.591 --> 00:07:03.771 The ETH is then locked up. 00:07:04.673 --> 00:07:06.755 and you now have ETH staked, 00:07:07.416 --> 00:07:09.418 restaked to it. 00:07:09.478 --> 00:07:10.500 I wonder how long it will 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:12.382 take until someone comes up 00:07:12.401 --> 00:07:14.384 with liquid staking your liquid stake. 00:07:16.045 --> 00:07:20.610 I mean, 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:24.713 could you not already take liquid 00:07:24.733 --> 00:07:26.435 stake tokens and then just bridge them 00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:29.928 Oh, I guess no, 00:07:29.968 --> 00:07:30.769 because they tend to be 00:07:30.829 --> 00:07:34.591 native to whatever the native... Well, 00:07:34.612 --> 00:07:35.411 there would be a different 00:07:35.432 --> 00:07:36.892 contract than the original. 00:07:37.312 --> 00:07:37.673 Yeah, 00:07:37.733 --> 00:07:39.475 because they're always additional 00:07:39.514 --> 00:07:40.915 derivatives, aren't they? 00:07:40.935 --> 00:07:42.576 So you'd have to create an 00:07:42.596 --> 00:07:43.797 additional derivative, 00:07:43.916 --> 00:07:46.399 and then there would be, I guess, 00:07:46.499 --> 00:07:47.619 arbitrage between the 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:50.321 derivative of the 00:07:50.341 --> 00:07:52.401 derivative and the derivative of the... 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:55.060 No, wait. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:55.319 Yeah, 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:56.761 so there would be arbitrage between 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:58.382 the original, the derivative, 00:07:58.403 --> 00:07:59.863 and the derivative of the derivative. 00:07:59.884 --> 00:08:02.286 Arbitrage. 00:08:02.906 --> 00:08:03.026 Yeah. 00:08:03.127 --> 00:08:04.767 Arbitrage. 00:08:04.827 --> 00:08:05.569 You know, the word. 00:08:06.309 --> 00:08:07.810 Yeah. 00:08:08.151 --> 00:08:09.531 It's too much stating. 00:08:09.552 --> 00:08:12.173 It's too much restating. 00:08:12.194 --> 00:08:14.175 Do you know, it's like that scene in the, 00:08:14.976 --> 00:08:15.197 you know, 00:08:15.216 --> 00:08:16.718 in the big short where they're like... 00:08:18.615 --> 00:08:19.615 where it's just like, well, 00:08:19.634 --> 00:08:20.475 what you do is you take a 00:08:20.516 --> 00:08:21.435 bunch of mortgage-backed 00:08:21.456 --> 00:08:22.276 securities and then you 00:08:22.315 --> 00:08:24.096 build them up into a package. 00:08:24.156 --> 00:08:24.877 And then you build a bunch 00:08:24.916 --> 00:08:26.437 of those up into a package. 00:08:26.898 --> 00:08:28.459 And then you take some of 00:08:28.559 --> 00:08:29.478 the credit and you just 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:30.579 swish it back around. 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:34.081 And then what if you then 00:08:34.421 --> 00:08:35.301 have an option on one of 00:08:35.321 --> 00:08:36.162 those things and then you 00:08:36.201 --> 00:08:37.322 put that into a package? 00:08:37.601 --> 00:08:40.763 That would be pretty cool, huh? 00:08:40.822 --> 00:08:42.663 I can't even remember how silly it gets, 00:08:42.703 --> 00:08:43.764 but when he's talking about 00:08:43.844 --> 00:08:44.705 all of the different... 00:08:45.441 --> 00:08:46.740 derivatives that they offer 00:08:46.821 --> 00:08:47.942 and the guy's like are you 00:08:48.022 --> 00:08:49.341 actually insane and the 00:08:49.381 --> 00:08:50.383 guy's like no this is 00:08:50.423 --> 00:08:53.724 pretty cool huh that's kind 00:08:53.744 --> 00:08:54.764 of how I feel when people 00:08:54.823 --> 00:08:55.583 start talking about liquid 00:08:55.604 --> 00:08:57.585 staking I mean it's 00:08:57.605 --> 00:08:58.544 basically like what fortis 00:08:58.565 --> 00:09:01.145 except yeah they're kind of 00:09:01.166 --> 00:09:01.625 they're trying to take 00:09:01.645 --> 00:09:02.366 themselves a little more 00:09:02.407 --> 00:09:04.947 seriously it's the weird 00:09:05.006 --> 00:09:06.707 thing isn't it like um 00:09:09.041 --> 00:09:10.743 I had like, okay, 00:09:10.763 --> 00:09:11.943 I shouldn't have been refreshed by it, 00:09:11.984 --> 00:09:13.205 but I was refreshed by it. 00:09:13.245 --> 00:09:14.365 I had an interaction at an 00:09:14.404 --> 00:09:19.448 event the other day and 00:09:19.889 --> 00:09:21.150 excitingly for a fucking 00:09:21.370 --> 00:09:23.832 nerd like me that just has 00:09:23.852 --> 00:09:26.294 to go to academic stuff now 00:09:26.674 --> 00:09:28.735 occasionally just to be meeting the room, 00:09:30.057 --> 00:09:30.337 you know, 00:09:31.698 --> 00:09:34.000 in the kind of somebody with a 00:09:34.421 --> 00:09:35.881 name badge from my university, 00:09:36.022 --> 00:09:37.003 even though I'm a nobody. 00:09:37.744 --> 00:09:38.965 should be there from our 00:09:39.004 --> 00:09:41.109 department or our bit of 00:09:41.129 --> 00:09:42.370 the department so that 00:09:42.409 --> 00:09:43.772 somebody is there and then 00:09:44.413 --> 00:09:45.114 can just tell everybody 00:09:45.134 --> 00:09:45.634 else what happened 00:09:45.674 --> 00:09:47.136 basically it's okay so I've 00:09:47.258 --> 00:09:48.099 drawn that short straw a 00:09:48.119 --> 00:09:49.902 couple times anyway um I 00:09:49.942 --> 00:09:51.123 ended up talking to somebody who 00:09:53.187 --> 00:09:54.188 Because of Chatham House rules, 00:09:54.229 --> 00:09:55.429 I can't actually say who it 00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:56.291 was or what they did, 00:09:57.892 --> 00:10:01.054 but a relatively serious 00:10:01.134 --> 00:10:03.738 organization and is 00:10:03.798 --> 00:10:06.019 relevant to a discussion in Stablecoins. 00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:09.842 I revealed that I worked as 00:10:09.863 --> 00:10:11.705 an engineer on blockchain 00:10:11.784 --> 00:10:12.785 and worked in blockchain, 00:10:13.086 --> 00:10:14.427 and they excused themselves 00:10:14.447 --> 00:10:15.889 from the conversation and walked away. 00:10:15.989 --> 00:10:16.950 It was amazing. 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:17.951 It was amazing. 00:10:19.707 --> 00:10:21.168 like oh excuse me I think I 00:10:21.208 --> 00:10:22.049 think there's only a few 00:10:22.070 --> 00:10:23.230 minutes left of the coffee 00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:27.373 break I'm out and there was 00:10:27.413 --> 00:10:28.433 like a group several people 00:10:28.614 --> 00:10:30.955 and they at me offering a 00:10:30.995 --> 00:10:33.035 thought as a representative 00:10:33.056 --> 00:10:33.996 of the blockchain industry 00:10:34.017 --> 00:10:35.817 at that moment they excused 00:10:35.837 --> 00:10:37.399 themselves and left and I 00:10:37.438 --> 00:10:39.559 was like made it lads 00:10:42.357 --> 00:10:42.677 I don't know. 00:10:42.758 --> 00:10:43.398 Like they weren't, 00:10:43.418 --> 00:10:44.318 they weren't impolite about 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:44.859 it or anything. 00:10:44.918 --> 00:10:45.178 I think, 00:10:45.619 --> 00:10:46.960 I think it might genuinely just a 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:47.799 bit of like, they're like, 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:49.581 who knows if there is about 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:50.980 to be mentioned a criminality, 00:10:51.020 --> 00:10:51.621 but I'm out. 00:10:51.942 --> 00:10:53.322 Like I'm just fully out. 00:10:53.402 --> 00:10:55.942 I just, I just, this is, this is a turn. 00:10:56.003 --> 00:10:56.563 I didn't expect this 00:10:56.583 --> 00:10:57.464 conversation to take and 00:10:57.484 --> 00:10:58.104 I'm going to politely 00:10:58.144 --> 00:10:59.264 excuse myself and go 00:10:59.924 --> 00:11:00.924 investigate a biscuit. 00:11:01.065 --> 00:11:02.066 There may be some coffee. 00:11:03.326 --> 00:11:05.466 But the first of all, it's hilarious. 00:11:05.626 --> 00:11:06.927 Second of all, it was hilarious. 00:11:06.988 --> 00:11:07.607 And third of all, 00:11:08.687 --> 00:11:10.089 um it reminded me very 00:11:10.129 --> 00:11:12.110 refreshingly how funny and 00:11:12.169 --> 00:11:13.590 stupid our industry is in a 00:11:13.629 --> 00:11:14.971 good way sometimes and I 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:16.251 was thinking you know what 00:11:16.331 --> 00:11:17.292 actually for all the stuff 00:11:17.331 --> 00:11:18.633 I hate about crypto I do 00:11:18.673 --> 00:11:20.352 like the fact that you can 00:11:20.493 --> 00:11:22.833 work in a space that makes 00:11:22.874 --> 00:11:24.174 people react like that 00:11:24.894 --> 00:11:25.936 because of the amount of 00:11:26.056 --> 00:11:27.677 nonsense that happens on a 00:11:27.736 --> 00:11:29.537 daily basis and you know 00:11:29.557 --> 00:11:30.677 we're just trying to we're 00:11:30.697 --> 00:11:31.717 just trying to make a buck 00:11:31.998 --> 00:11:33.339 trying to get our head 00:11:33.359 --> 00:11:34.559 around this bullshit make a 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.821 buck not go to prison right and uh 00:11:39.596 --> 00:11:39.756 Well, 00:11:39.777 --> 00:11:41.077 the more ironic thing I've found is 00:11:41.097 --> 00:11:42.538 that if you bring up, 00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:44.759 this is like excluding conferences. 00:11:44.779 --> 00:11:45.600 When you go to conferences, 00:11:45.640 --> 00:11:46.441 it's like a different beast. 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.302 But if you're like in 00:11:47.361 --> 00:11:49.342 everyday life and somehow crypto comes up, 00:11:49.783 --> 00:11:51.104 generally the person that 00:11:51.124 --> 00:11:52.245 brings it up is someone you 00:11:52.304 --> 00:11:53.205 don't want to talk to. 00:11:54.145 --> 00:11:55.986 And so guessing it probably 00:11:56.027 --> 00:11:56.947 holds true for the person 00:11:56.966 --> 00:11:57.888 you were talking to where they're like, 00:11:57.927 --> 00:11:58.048 huh, 00:11:58.388 --> 00:11:59.849 I'm going to excuse myself from this. 00:12:00.109 --> 00:12:00.750 If you're at a conference, 00:12:00.769 --> 00:12:01.549 everyone's talking crypto. 00:12:01.570 --> 00:12:02.870 So obviously you're taught crypto, right? 00:12:02.951 --> 00:12:04.731 Like, you know, you're getting into, but. 00:12:05.457 --> 00:12:06.158 if it's just some random 00:12:06.197 --> 00:12:07.058 person you're talking to, 00:12:07.438 --> 00:12:08.059 you know that we're going 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.461 to bring up Doge or Elon 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:11.881 Musk or something like that, 00:12:11.902 --> 00:12:12.741 and you're just going to be like, oh, 00:12:12.761 --> 00:12:12.822 God. 00:12:12.841 --> 00:12:13.022 Yeah, 00:12:13.043 --> 00:12:18.225 I kind of thought... So in my slight 00:12:18.245 --> 00:12:18.966 defense, right, 00:12:19.046 --> 00:12:20.767 when it's an academic 00:12:20.787 --> 00:12:21.528 situation where it's 00:12:21.548 --> 00:12:22.648 discussion of payments, 00:12:23.389 --> 00:12:24.870 discussion of payments regulation, 00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:25.990 and somebody has already 00:12:26.029 --> 00:12:31.153 mentioned stablecoins, 00:12:31.472 --> 00:12:33.715 I felt like maybe... 00:12:36.174 --> 00:12:37.576 Because the problem is if you're just like, 00:12:37.916 --> 00:12:39.557 if someone's like, oh yeah, 00:12:39.756 --> 00:12:40.717 you're from which university? 00:12:41.038 --> 00:12:42.438 Okay, and what's your, 00:12:42.599 --> 00:12:43.438 are you tenure there? 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:45.120 Like that kind of is the 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:45.921 straightaway question. 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:48.081 Everybody is bollock measuring. 00:12:48.182 --> 00:12:48.361 You know, 00:12:48.381 --> 00:12:50.264 it's the same as like any conference, 00:12:50.303 --> 00:12:50.864 anything like that. 00:12:50.903 --> 00:12:52.445 Like people are always trying, 00:12:52.504 --> 00:12:53.645 I guess also it's the UK 00:12:53.706 --> 00:12:54.725 class system and everything, right? 00:12:54.745 --> 00:12:55.667 People are always trying to 00:12:55.706 --> 00:12:57.288 measure where you sit in 00:12:57.307 --> 00:12:58.788 the pecking order and where 00:12:58.808 --> 00:12:59.769 they need to take you seriously, right? 00:12:59.828 --> 00:13:01.070 And I'm a PhD researcher, 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:02.451 so you don't need to take me seriously. 00:13:02.630 --> 00:13:03.751 I am a fucking nobody, right? 00:13:04.511 --> 00:13:06.452 um and I mean I suppose in a 00:13:06.552 --> 00:13:07.333 business setting and a 00:13:07.514 --> 00:13:08.414 fintech setting or whatever 00:13:09.235 --> 00:13:11.416 I run a business described 00:13:11.456 --> 00:13:13.437 as a categorized as a micro 00:13:13.457 --> 00:13:14.217 business right so you don't 00:13:14.238 --> 00:13:14.859 need to take me seriously 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:16.799 there either right at all 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:18.461 there's really no scenario 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.360 in my life in which I 00:13:19.380 --> 00:13:20.422 should be taken seriously 00:13:20.461 --> 00:13:21.442 now I think about it but 00:13:22.722 --> 00:13:24.784 nevertheless right if 00:13:25.044 --> 00:13:25.745 you're in a situation like 00:13:25.764 --> 00:13:26.426 that you're like oh I 00:13:26.466 --> 00:13:28.386 actually have something um 00:13:30.068 --> 00:13:30.688 to add here, 00:13:30.750 --> 00:13:31.870 but I'm not a tenured academic, 00:13:31.929 --> 00:13:33.150 I'm just a PhD researcher, 00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:34.611 but my credibility on the 00:13:34.672 --> 00:13:35.393 subject rests on the fact 00:13:35.413 --> 00:13:36.052 that I've worked in this 00:13:36.092 --> 00:13:37.874 sector for like four years 00:13:38.654 --> 00:13:39.956 and I've actually, I've seen some shit, 00:13:39.975 --> 00:13:40.475 man, like, 00:13:40.615 --> 00:13:43.378 like not withstanding the fact 00:13:43.398 --> 00:13:44.139 that I actually actively 00:13:44.198 --> 00:13:44.979 research this stuff now. 00:13:45.119 --> 00:13:46.360 So, you know, 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.642 I felt like I was able to chip in like 00:13:49.514 --> 00:13:50.974 The semi grounded opinion. 00:13:51.114 --> 00:13:53.534 But it was funny, beautiful, 00:13:53.554 --> 00:13:55.755 amazing to just get because 00:13:55.775 --> 00:13:57.475 it was such a polite as well. 00:13:57.495 --> 00:13:58.696 It wasn't like I've had some 00:13:58.716 --> 00:13:59.537 really rude interactions 00:13:59.576 --> 00:14:01.096 recently at networking 00:14:01.116 --> 00:14:02.057 events and things where 00:14:02.297 --> 00:14:02.998 it's just people being rude 00:14:03.018 --> 00:14:04.197 because they judge that 00:14:04.238 --> 00:14:06.239 you're not useful to them, whatever. 00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:09.558 And they just literally do 00:14:09.599 --> 00:14:10.440 the British equivalent of 00:14:10.460 --> 00:14:11.639 telling you to fuck off to your face, 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:11.899 right? 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.000 Which is okay, that's actually a bit rude. 00:14:15.865 --> 00:14:17.385 But this situation, it wasn't rude. 00:14:17.405 --> 00:14:18.726 It was the most deliberately 00:14:18.988 --> 00:14:21.009 unrued way of extricating 00:14:21.048 --> 00:14:22.390 yourself from immediately 00:14:22.431 --> 00:14:23.851 having to say a single other word. 00:14:23.871 --> 00:14:24.451 It was amazing. 00:14:24.491 --> 00:14:25.033 I love it. 00:14:25.052 --> 00:14:26.274 I just, I love that kind of shit. 00:14:26.313 --> 00:14:27.674 Like I grew up in the South of England. 00:14:27.695 --> 00:14:35.522 So anyway, but shit payments is like the, 00:14:35.741 --> 00:14:36.121 when you, 00:14:37.464 --> 00:14:39.085 when you hear about how payments 00:14:39.125 --> 00:14:40.886 regulation stuff works and how the actual, 00:14:41.407 --> 00:14:42.427 the underlying stuff, 00:14:42.467 --> 00:14:43.548 like how the banks do it. 00:14:44.274 --> 00:14:45.336 in the UK and the US. 00:14:45.537 --> 00:14:47.019 I had no idea how different 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:49.363 the underlying clearing mechanisms were. 00:14:50.563 --> 00:14:50.904 Again, 00:14:51.044 --> 00:14:51.966 fucking showing why you shouldn't 00:14:52.506 --> 00:14:53.950 really take me seriously on anything, 00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:55.270 because clearly I don't know anything. 00:14:56.933 --> 00:14:57.855 It was really, really interesting, 00:14:57.914 --> 00:14:58.196 actually. 00:14:59.292 --> 00:14:59.972 I don't know if it's still 00:14:59.993 --> 00:15:01.313 the way it does it in the US, 00:15:01.375 --> 00:15:02.596 but when I worked at 00:15:02.615 --> 00:15:04.278 FinTech five or so years ago, 00:15:04.918 --> 00:15:05.820 it was still horrible. 00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:07.562 It was still basically all manually done. 00:15:07.881 --> 00:15:08.322 Like, yeah, 00:15:08.341 --> 00:15:10.063 you're sending a transaction 00:15:10.325 --> 00:15:11.745 through a database, whatever, 00:15:11.765 --> 00:15:12.307 if you want to do a 00:15:12.326 --> 00:15:13.368 transfer along like Chase, 00:15:13.808 --> 00:15:14.469 but it all had to 00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:15.571 ultimately be done by hand. 00:15:17.019 --> 00:15:17.200 Yeah, 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:20.921 there's loads of... So apparently the 00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:22.261 Aussies have relatively 00:15:22.282 --> 00:15:22.942 good systems and they 00:15:23.001 --> 00:15:23.961 modernized a lot of it and 00:15:23.981 --> 00:15:25.383 that kind of came up several times. 00:15:26.202 --> 00:15:27.243 We've talked about it on 00:15:27.283 --> 00:15:28.244 this podcast before. 00:15:28.543 --> 00:15:29.403 Well done, Null, 00:15:29.423 --> 00:15:31.465 because apparently I know 00:15:31.504 --> 00:15:32.524 that you were the driving 00:15:32.565 --> 00:15:35.405 force of that policy shift. 00:15:36.807 --> 00:15:38.986 I did think frequently and 00:15:39.027 --> 00:15:40.548 hardly about how shit the 00:15:40.587 --> 00:15:41.988 banking system was all the 00:15:42.008 --> 00:15:43.489 way leading up until they fixed it. 00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:46.111 So what you're saying is 00:15:46.152 --> 00:15:48.634 that in a kind of occult magic sense, 00:15:48.815 --> 00:15:52.360 you may have used occult 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:53.981 magic to influence the 00:15:54.022 --> 00:15:55.945 Australian government via 00:15:55.985 --> 00:15:58.028 kind of spectral means to change the law. 00:15:59.147 --> 00:16:01.207 Yeah, like I would sit there on the dunny. 00:16:01.227 --> 00:16:02.788 I'd think to myself, you know what? 00:16:03.369 --> 00:16:05.028 I can send a message. 00:16:05.690 --> 00:16:07.149 I can text someone a message 00:16:07.250 --> 00:16:08.850 and they get it straight away. 00:16:09.350 --> 00:16:10.831 Why can I not text someone 00:16:10.871 --> 00:16:12.511 money and they get it straight away? 00:16:13.092 --> 00:16:14.052 Why do I have to wait a day? 00:16:14.192 --> 00:16:15.013 It's fucking bullshit. 00:16:15.052 --> 00:16:16.653 They just want the interest overnight. 00:16:17.573 --> 00:16:20.755 And then all of a sudden they fixed it. 00:16:20.775 --> 00:16:22.456 And I was like, well, ESP. 00:16:23.836 --> 00:16:24.317 There you go. 00:16:24.852 --> 00:16:25.332 Yeah, we have, like, 00:16:25.393 --> 00:16:26.614 faster payments in this country, 00:16:26.653 --> 00:16:27.793 which is for up to, I think, 00:16:27.894 --> 00:16:28.855 up to a million pounds. 00:16:29.115 --> 00:16:30.816 They're supposed to clear within, 00:16:31.515 --> 00:16:32.576 I don't know what the SLA on it is. 00:16:32.917 --> 00:16:33.677 I think it's about twenty 00:16:33.697 --> 00:16:34.616 minutes is the outside, 00:16:34.636 --> 00:16:36.298 but typically it's a second. 00:16:36.378 --> 00:16:37.259 It used to be, like, 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:39.480 fucking three days or some bullshit. 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:41.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:42.520 And I surmised that they 00:16:42.660 --> 00:16:44.042 only did that so they could 00:16:44.081 --> 00:16:44.902 keep that shit in a 00:16:44.922 --> 00:16:48.864 clearing account and get interest on it. 00:16:48.923 --> 00:16:49.663 I think it was because it 00:16:49.683 --> 00:16:51.865 was the same process for 00:16:52.004 --> 00:16:53.525 big payments as small payments. 00:16:54.398 --> 00:16:56.178 I'm like, oh, fuck. 00:16:56.379 --> 00:16:59.900 Yeah, someone's paid a payment. 00:16:59.921 --> 00:17:02.462 I need to get out my ledger. 00:17:02.503 --> 00:17:03.803 Well, essentially, yeah. 00:17:04.044 --> 00:17:05.484 I don't know what it's like. 00:17:05.505 --> 00:17:05.904 Well, 00:17:09.487 --> 00:17:10.688 I guess it would probably be similar 00:17:10.708 --> 00:17:12.689 to... Because the system we 00:17:12.729 --> 00:17:16.290 had that was like three days, 00:17:16.371 --> 00:17:18.311 I think it's now one day in this country, 00:17:18.352 --> 00:17:21.074 but it's for high-value payments, right? 00:17:21.094 --> 00:17:21.453 So the... 00:17:22.412 --> 00:17:24.772 It handles like a tiny volume, but like, 00:17:25.374 --> 00:17:26.114 it's like something like. 00:17:26.134 --> 00:17:30.436 It's eleven trillion pounds a year, 00:17:30.517 --> 00:17:31.356 or maybe a day. 00:17:31.416 --> 00:17:32.958 It could be a day for all I fucking know. 00:17:33.838 --> 00:17:35.299 Um, I'd have to look at numbers, 00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:36.460 but there's like a system 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.221 called chaps that is like that. 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.501 And then there's faster payments, 00:17:39.541 --> 00:17:41.222 which is for, for, um, 00:17:42.429 --> 00:17:43.691 lower value stuff but what I 00:17:43.711 --> 00:17:45.394 didn't realize was that the 00:17:45.453 --> 00:17:46.154 government literally in 00:17:46.194 --> 00:17:47.436 like two thousand were just 00:17:47.477 --> 00:17:48.578 like we're just gonna do a 00:17:48.598 --> 00:17:50.000 review on whether we can do 00:17:50.602 --> 00:17:51.604 something for payments and 00:17:51.644 --> 00:17:52.705 then faster payments came 00:17:52.766 --> 00:17:53.487 out that and it's kind of 00:17:53.507 --> 00:17:54.808 actually pretty good it's quietly 00:17:55.571 --> 00:17:57.093 very good thing and I was 00:17:57.113 --> 00:17:58.153 just like even twenty 00:17:58.193 --> 00:17:59.474 minutes seems unnecessary 00:17:59.535 --> 00:18:00.675 is that like interbank or 00:18:00.736 --> 00:18:02.258 is that because we used to 00:18:02.298 --> 00:18:03.638 have a thing where um you 00:18:03.659 --> 00:18:05.079 know if it was interbank it 00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:06.161 could be done a little bit 00:18:06.201 --> 00:18:08.123 quicker like maybe you know 00:18:08.143 --> 00:18:09.824 an hour or so but if it was 00:18:09.864 --> 00:18:10.924 another bank it would still 00:18:10.944 --> 00:18:13.126 take overnight yeah it's 00:18:13.307 --> 00:18:15.028 it's any bank to any bank in the uk 00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:17.372 yeah okay because then like 00:18:17.511 --> 00:18:18.211 all of our banks 00:18:18.252 --> 00:18:19.773 collaborated and they built 00:18:20.515 --> 00:18:21.556 I think the big four banks 00:18:21.596 --> 00:18:23.178 here created like a 00:18:24.038 --> 00:18:25.921 business and then created 00:18:25.961 --> 00:18:27.382 the back end thing where 00:18:27.402 --> 00:18:28.763 they are all it's something 00:18:28.804 --> 00:18:29.664 like that here I think I 00:18:29.765 --> 00:18:32.307 think they're still uh 00:18:32.367 --> 00:18:33.088 what's it called town 00:18:33.108 --> 00:18:34.450 clearing house or whatever 00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:35.290 it's called the people that 00:18:35.310 --> 00:18:36.192 run chaps I think is 00:18:36.271 --> 00:18:37.113 technically the people that 00:18:37.961 --> 00:18:39.182 run faster payments, maybe? 00:18:40.042 --> 00:18:41.364 Or is it PayUK? 00:18:41.763 --> 00:18:42.284 One of the two. 00:18:42.403 --> 00:18:42.765 I don't know. 00:18:43.724 --> 00:18:44.526 I think it's thirty-eight 00:18:44.546 --> 00:18:45.446 institutions run it. 00:18:46.346 --> 00:18:47.688 But to be clear, 00:18:47.788 --> 00:18:49.169 I think twenty minutes is 00:18:49.209 --> 00:18:50.049 the maximum it will take. 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:51.790 In reality, it's usually about a second. 00:18:52.791 --> 00:18:53.112 Yeah, 00:18:53.231 --> 00:18:57.315 it's just... It's functionally... To 00:18:57.335 --> 00:18:59.116 the extent that there's a 00:18:59.176 --> 00:19:00.478 falafel place near me where 00:19:00.657 --> 00:19:03.119 you can only pay in cash or 00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:04.280 you can bank transfer them. 00:19:05.448 --> 00:19:06.469 And they'll just, they just, 00:19:06.588 --> 00:19:07.950 they just have a iPad next 00:19:07.970 --> 00:19:08.951 to the thing and they just go, 00:19:09.612 --> 00:19:11.173 they just flick it to refresh. 00:19:11.192 --> 00:19:12.974 Just enter your banking 00:19:13.035 --> 00:19:15.477 information into this. 00:19:15.517 --> 00:19:16.978 They just have this to log 00:19:17.057 --> 00:19:18.179 into your internet banking. 00:19:18.378 --> 00:19:20.201 They just have their details on the, 00:19:20.401 --> 00:19:21.261 on the till, right? 00:19:21.342 --> 00:19:23.804 It just says user reference. 00:19:23.903 --> 00:19:24.964 Like when we, 00:19:25.125 --> 00:19:27.386 when you literally just order your food, 00:19:27.426 --> 00:19:29.087 like a pizza, two falafels, whatever, 00:19:29.107 --> 00:19:29.929 they just go, okay, cool. 00:19:29.989 --> 00:19:30.730 There's a number at the 00:19:30.750 --> 00:19:31.349 bottom of the receipt. 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:31.750 Put that in. 00:19:31.769 --> 00:19:33.432 Yeah. 00:19:35.766 --> 00:19:37.626 So, you know, that's very uncommon, 00:19:37.707 --> 00:19:38.186 I should say. 00:19:38.367 --> 00:19:41.009 But that you do occasionally, 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:43.570 usually in kind of, I don't know, like, 00:19:43.590 --> 00:19:43.750 yeah, 00:19:43.810 --> 00:19:45.471 ethnic supermarkets and stuff like that. 00:19:47.253 --> 00:19:48.094 See people using faster 00:19:48.114 --> 00:19:50.556 payments for that sort of thing. 00:19:50.596 --> 00:19:52.416 So I want to go out on a 00:19:52.457 --> 00:19:53.938 limb here and say that I 00:19:54.038 --> 00:19:57.480 think the big four 00:19:57.520 --> 00:19:59.041 collaborated with Ripple 00:19:59.481 --> 00:20:01.983 when they built the back end. 00:20:03.321 --> 00:20:04.103 Could be bullshit, 00:20:04.123 --> 00:20:05.042 could be talking out my ass, 00:20:05.063 --> 00:20:06.644 but I think I read that somewhere. 00:20:08.665 --> 00:20:09.205 Ripple. 00:20:09.965 --> 00:20:13.067 You're going to confuse that 00:20:13.808 --> 00:20:14.990 instantly with the blockchain, 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.051 not the blockchain. 00:20:18.092 --> 00:20:21.713 Ripple have settlement stuff 00:20:21.733 --> 00:20:23.154 that they build completely 00:20:23.234 --> 00:20:25.797 separate to the XRP. 00:20:25.957 --> 00:20:28.238 They just constantly sell 00:20:28.479 --> 00:20:29.759 XRP to run the rest of 00:20:29.778 --> 00:20:30.539 their business with. 00:20:32.905 --> 00:20:34.426 It's very important at the 00:20:34.467 --> 00:20:36.648 heart of a good function. 00:20:36.669 --> 00:20:37.490 At the heart of every 00:20:37.549 --> 00:20:38.829 fucking multinational, 00:20:38.851 --> 00:20:40.171 there must be a shit coin 00:20:40.191 --> 00:20:40.932 that you can sell. 00:20:41.132 --> 00:20:43.334 You need a shit coin to dump on retail. 00:20:43.354 --> 00:20:46.675 That's like really... Really 00:20:46.695 --> 00:20:47.497 is the only way to do 00:20:47.537 --> 00:20:48.676 business in our day and age. 00:20:49.397 --> 00:20:50.398 I mean, the thing is, 00:20:50.538 --> 00:20:51.880 all you have to do is say 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:53.141 that with a slightly more 00:20:53.181 --> 00:20:54.821 serious tone of voice now. 00:20:54.961 --> 00:20:57.143 And I reckon we can make 00:20:57.163 --> 00:20:57.923 some real money here. 00:20:59.214 --> 00:21:00.015 I mean, 00:21:00.075 --> 00:21:01.414 I'm not trying to be the central 00:21:01.434 --> 00:21:02.195 bank manager here. 00:21:02.215 --> 00:21:02.915 All right. 00:21:02.955 --> 00:21:05.036 I'm just fucking musing out loud. 00:21:05.756 --> 00:21:06.115 She'll see. 00:21:06.336 --> 00:21:07.196 Well, I mean, 00:21:07.457 --> 00:21:08.596 what's even better than that 00:21:08.676 --> 00:21:09.757 is one of our presidential 00:21:09.777 --> 00:21:11.957 candidates is doing that. 00:21:12.457 --> 00:21:16.698 They create a token that cannot be traded. 00:21:16.738 --> 00:21:16.917 What? 00:21:16.978 --> 00:21:17.377 Yeah. 00:21:17.637 --> 00:21:17.938 Wait, what? 00:21:17.978 --> 00:21:18.798 Yeah. 00:21:18.838 --> 00:21:20.979 Trump created a like world 00:21:21.038 --> 00:21:22.098 coin or something like that. 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.279 And it has like sending disabled tokens. 00:21:26.843 --> 00:21:28.923 Trump's already been finding 00:21:29.403 --> 00:21:34.346 his bullshit with bullshit. 00:21:34.727 --> 00:21:35.768 He sold NFTs. 00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:40.290 This one just came out, though. 00:21:40.310 --> 00:21:42.412 You can't send the tokens or trade them, 00:21:42.471 --> 00:21:43.251 so you buy it. 00:21:43.271 --> 00:21:45.433 He was just selling them. 00:21:45.913 --> 00:21:47.934 Taking advantage of the election hype. 00:21:49.434 --> 00:21:52.257 yeah fucking hell I saw that 00:21:52.417 --> 00:21:53.999 um did you see I don't know 00:21:54.038 --> 00:21:55.339 this could have even been a 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:56.540 coin she'll see it's a 00:21:56.580 --> 00:21:58.142 commemorative coin it's a 00:21:58.162 --> 00:21:59.844 very commemorative coin um 00:22:00.104 --> 00:22:01.144 did you see that I don't 00:22:01.164 --> 00:22:01.865 know if this was actually 00:22:01.924 --> 00:22:02.806 true or whether it was just 00:22:02.865 --> 00:22:04.627 like full satire and it got 00:22:04.667 --> 00:22:07.430 me good but um there was 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:08.230 something about russell 00:22:08.270 --> 00:22:10.992 brand selling um magical 00:22:11.113 --> 00:22:12.374 amulets protect you against 00:22:12.413 --> 00:22:14.316 the uh the old five g 00:22:16.807 --> 00:22:18.608 to predominantly an audience 00:22:18.669 --> 00:22:19.750 of American born again 00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:20.930 Christians and I was like I 00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:24.192 don't really follow the 00:22:24.251 --> 00:22:25.772 news so I was a bit like 00:22:26.153 --> 00:22:27.834 clearly a lot has happened 00:22:28.233 --> 00:22:29.355 in the time that I've not 00:22:29.394 --> 00:22:30.154 really been paying 00:22:30.194 --> 00:22:33.057 attention I haven't seen or 00:22:33.076 --> 00:22:34.116 heard anything from Russell 00:22:34.136 --> 00:22:35.238 Brand in a while I mean 00:22:35.897 --> 00:22:36.939 he's not from our country 00:22:36.959 --> 00:22:38.098 but presumably he finally 00:22:38.138 --> 00:22:40.921 went mad I think what 00:22:40.941 --> 00:22:41.701 happened so there was a 00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:42.601 thing in British comedy 00:22:42.641 --> 00:22:44.201 apparently so this thing I 00:22:44.241 --> 00:22:45.363 do know because I've been to a 00:22:46.227 --> 00:22:47.208 I don't follow the news. 00:22:47.228 --> 00:22:48.268 I've been to a comedy show 00:22:48.288 --> 00:22:49.169 in the last two years. 00:22:51.589 --> 00:22:53.191 I gather on the comedy circuit, 00:22:53.751 --> 00:22:55.633 it was like on the British comedy circuit, 00:22:55.653 --> 00:22:57.273 it was an open secret that 00:22:57.334 --> 00:22:59.434 he was a sexual predator 00:23:00.236 --> 00:23:03.337 and that his lawyers had 00:23:03.397 --> 00:23:05.078 made it very fucking clear 00:23:05.659 --> 00:23:08.800 that if any comics who didn't have very, 00:23:09.040 --> 00:23:10.642 very large amounts of money 00:23:12.123 --> 00:23:13.243 were to say anything in 00:23:13.263 --> 00:23:15.105 their sets or say anything publicly... 00:23:17.175 --> 00:23:19.617 then he would libel the shit 00:23:19.698 --> 00:23:23.241 out of them until they were fucking dead, 00:23:23.281 --> 00:23:23.902 basically. 00:23:25.144 --> 00:23:27.065 And no job in comic who's 00:23:27.144 --> 00:23:28.926 not a movie star has the 00:23:28.967 --> 00:23:31.470 money to go against that in court. 00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:35.512 And the way the libel laws 00:23:35.573 --> 00:23:36.273 are in this country, 00:23:36.855 --> 00:23:38.036 they can be quite onerous 00:23:38.056 --> 00:23:39.257 in terms of the burden of proof. 00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:43.930 So, yeah. 00:23:44.851 --> 00:23:46.911 But I think somebody came 00:23:46.951 --> 00:23:50.531 forward who was a victim. 00:23:50.791 --> 00:23:52.971 And then once that happens, 00:23:53.031 --> 00:23:54.732 I think it might have even 00:23:54.813 --> 00:23:55.573 been that somebody then 00:23:55.692 --> 00:23:57.313 mentioned... There was something. 00:23:57.353 --> 00:23:58.334 There's a bunch of hacks you 00:23:58.354 --> 00:23:59.213 can get around the libel 00:23:59.253 --> 00:23:59.913 laws in this country. 00:24:00.013 --> 00:24:00.733 One of them you can do is 00:24:00.773 --> 00:24:01.473 you mention something in 00:24:01.513 --> 00:24:03.795 Parliament for discussion as a news item. 00:24:05.015 --> 00:24:05.815 And then after that, 00:24:06.974 --> 00:24:07.935 it's parliamentary privilege. 00:24:07.976 --> 00:24:08.695 All bets are off, man. 00:24:08.836 --> 00:24:09.455 You can report it. 00:24:10.505 --> 00:24:12.006 Um, so like there have been, 00:24:12.726 --> 00:24:13.205 I'm pretty sure. 00:24:13.266 --> 00:24:17.008 Wait, so if you have something to bring up, 00:24:17.028 --> 00:24:17.728 you can be like, 00:24:18.428 --> 00:24:19.568 I'd like to bring to stand 00:24:19.608 --> 00:24:21.470 that Russell Brandt is a sexual predator. 00:24:21.529 --> 00:24:22.289 Please discuss. 00:24:23.490 --> 00:24:24.330 So it's not, 00:24:24.711 --> 00:24:25.510 I don't think it's usually 00:24:25.530 --> 00:24:26.771 done quite that subtly, 00:24:26.791 --> 00:24:29.313 but I'm also pretty, but, but there are, 00:24:29.673 --> 00:24:34.355 there are cases, um, where, um, 00:24:34.674 --> 00:24:35.815 a politician will just slip 00:24:35.835 --> 00:24:37.596 it in during parliamentary 00:24:37.615 --> 00:24:38.455 proceedings because then it 00:24:38.476 --> 00:24:39.257 gets written down in the 00:24:39.297 --> 00:24:39.876 permanent record. 00:24:40.336 --> 00:24:41.438 and you have parliamentary privilege, 00:24:41.478 --> 00:24:42.719 meaning you can't be sued for libel, 00:24:44.101 --> 00:24:44.902 and then it can be reported 00:24:44.922 --> 00:24:45.643 by the newspapers. 00:24:45.762 --> 00:24:46.865 So at that point, 00:24:47.905 --> 00:24:49.528 whilst libel laws sort of 00:24:49.628 --> 00:24:50.910 still do apply in practice, 00:24:50.950 --> 00:24:51.750 it can be reported. 00:24:51.851 --> 00:24:56.176 So the effect is moot, right? 00:24:56.900 --> 00:24:58.240 So there are sometimes 00:24:58.281 --> 00:24:59.082 things that come out, 00:24:59.262 --> 00:25:00.703 particularly abuse of power 00:25:00.743 --> 00:25:01.684 type things in the UK, 00:25:01.704 --> 00:25:02.266 where it turns out 00:25:02.286 --> 00:25:02.965 somebody's been trying to 00:25:02.986 --> 00:25:05.388 sue people over keeping something quiet, 00:25:05.429 --> 00:25:07.330 like a scandal for a long period of time. 00:25:07.411 --> 00:25:08.311 And then an MP will hear 00:25:08.332 --> 00:25:10.134 about it and they'll just 00:25:10.173 --> 00:25:11.134 mention it in Parliament 00:25:11.674 --> 00:25:12.696 because they know they're 00:25:12.777 --> 00:25:13.758 immune from prosecution. 00:25:14.377 --> 00:25:15.499 and then a journalist will 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:16.740 be will notice that and 00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:17.559 then be able to go and 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:18.580 investigate it um or 00:25:20.041 --> 00:25:21.001 whatever these these things 00:25:21.021 --> 00:25:23.804 happen um but I don't think 00:25:23.824 --> 00:25:24.785 that's how the russell 00:25:24.805 --> 00:25:25.644 brown thinking about that 00:25:25.664 --> 00:25:28.086 reason like can we all just 00:25:28.467 --> 00:25:29.406 acknowledge for a second 00:25:29.446 --> 00:25:30.528 honorable gentlemen and 00:25:30.567 --> 00:25:31.689 ladies that russell brown 00:25:31.729 --> 00:25:32.849 may or may not be a nonce 00:25:32.869 --> 00:25:35.651 and yeah rabble rabble rabble 00:25:37.422 --> 00:25:37.981 Although, to be fair, 00:25:39.742 --> 00:25:40.962 to be fair to a sexual predator, 00:25:40.982 --> 00:25:41.623 I don't even know why you 00:25:41.663 --> 00:25:42.584 said to be fair. 00:25:43.163 --> 00:25:44.384 I don't think it was a nonce. 00:25:44.403 --> 00:25:46.085 I think he's just a garden 00:25:46.105 --> 00:25:48.806 variety sexual predator, which obviously, 00:25:48.826 --> 00:25:51.527 you know, is there a hierarchy of bad? 00:25:51.586 --> 00:25:52.106 I don't even know. 00:25:53.415 --> 00:25:55.876 yeah so so anyway there you 00:25:55.896 --> 00:25:57.557 go that's the thing uh but 00:25:57.576 --> 00:25:58.136 it's interesting because 00:25:58.156 --> 00:25:58.938 there's basically if you if 00:25:58.958 --> 00:26:00.637 you watch british comedy or 00:26:00.837 --> 00:26:02.397 like follow it or watch 00:26:02.498 --> 00:26:03.159 interviews with british 00:26:03.179 --> 00:26:05.278 comedians like a bunch of 00:26:05.298 --> 00:26:06.440 them have like there was 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:07.380 like a louis theroux I 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:08.460 think interview a little 00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:10.800 while ago um I want to say 00:26:10.820 --> 00:26:12.121 it was like I think it was 00:26:12.141 --> 00:26:13.500 with the canadian comedian 00:26:13.961 --> 00:26:15.741 um catherine ryan who's a 00:26:15.761 --> 00:26:16.721 bit hit and miss but she's 00:26:16.821 --> 00:26:18.063 she used to be she's having 00:26:18.083 --> 00:26:19.182 she did a good comedy show 00:26:19.202 --> 00:26:21.104 I think about a few years ago like 00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:24.911 there's like a bit in the 00:26:24.951 --> 00:26:25.951 interview and there's a 00:26:25.991 --> 00:26:27.113 couple of these floating 00:26:27.133 --> 00:26:27.973 around that you can find 00:26:28.034 --> 00:26:31.699 where something kind of 00:26:31.719 --> 00:26:32.559 gets mentioned in Louis 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:33.840 Theroux or the interviewer, 00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:34.541 depending on which 00:26:34.561 --> 00:26:35.603 interview you're thinking of, is like, 00:26:35.722 --> 00:26:36.644 oh yeah, so what's that about? 00:26:36.663 --> 00:26:37.125 And they just go, 00:26:37.144 --> 00:26:38.026 I'm literally not going to 00:26:38.046 --> 00:26:38.946 legally talk about that. 00:26:38.967 --> 00:26:40.709 It's like massive step 00:26:40.729 --> 00:26:41.490 change in what was quite a 00:26:41.529 --> 00:26:42.411 casual conversation. 00:26:42.471 --> 00:26:43.352 It's like, what 00:26:44.308 --> 00:26:44.848 It's just like, 00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:46.829 that would lead me to 00:26:46.869 --> 00:26:48.609 talking about an incident 00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:49.790 and an anecdote about 00:26:49.871 --> 00:26:51.631 somebody that I have no 00:26:51.671 --> 00:26:52.491 basis other than my own 00:26:52.531 --> 00:26:53.571 opinion and my own experience. 00:26:53.692 --> 00:26:56.292 And I do not want to fall 00:26:56.313 --> 00:26:58.094 afoul of British libel law. 00:26:58.173 --> 00:27:00.994 So I will stop talking about that now. 00:27:01.115 --> 00:27:02.714 And you can do your own investigations. 00:27:02.795 --> 00:27:03.976 And then the interviewer, 00:27:05.096 --> 00:27:06.435 like in all of these cases, would be like, 00:27:06.496 --> 00:27:09.798 what the fuck? 00:27:09.817 --> 00:27:10.057 But yeah, 00:27:10.097 --> 00:27:11.157 like nobody talked on the record 00:27:11.178 --> 00:27:12.317 about it for fucking ages. 00:27:12.357 --> 00:27:13.939 So yeah. 00:27:15.586 --> 00:27:19.067 Wild stuff. 00:27:19.107 --> 00:27:22.509 Wild stallions. 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:24.030 The more I learn about British law, 00:27:24.191 --> 00:27:25.751 the more I realize why 00:27:26.051 --> 00:27:30.273 America exited stage left. 00:27:30.454 --> 00:27:30.755 Yeah. 00:27:30.914 --> 00:27:31.154 I mean, 00:27:32.516 --> 00:27:34.196 Britain's a pretty fucking weird place. 00:27:34.497 --> 00:27:37.038 I mean, 00:27:37.057 --> 00:27:38.898 people genuinely think the royal 00:27:38.919 --> 00:27:40.460 family are more important than them, 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:43.221 which is pretty crazy. 00:27:44.576 --> 00:27:49.118 like they were just born but 00:27:49.138 --> 00:27:50.119 hey you know like you know 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:51.460 you guys have a de facto 00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:52.941 aristocracy as well I mean 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.561 like people from from who 00:27:55.602 --> 00:27:56.261 their parents were 00:27:56.281 --> 00:27:57.163 president people are like 00:27:57.282 --> 00:27:58.544 that seems reasonable and 00:27:58.564 --> 00:28:00.183 it's like that's called a 00:28:00.223 --> 00:28:01.904 monarchy that's called a 00:28:01.944 --> 00:28:04.066 royal family these guys 00:28:04.086 --> 00:28:05.507 will marry each other it's 00:28:05.547 --> 00:28:07.807 just a monarchy by another name I guess 00:28:09.625 --> 00:28:10.986 I've always been curious why, 00:28:11.646 --> 00:28:12.527 while we're getting off topic, 00:28:12.767 --> 00:28:13.346 but I've always been 00:28:13.366 --> 00:28:14.968 curious why oligarchy is 00:28:15.147 --> 00:28:18.150 really only a word used for like Russians, 00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.151 Russian oligarchs. 00:28:19.830 --> 00:28:21.672 Whereas like, I mean, 00:28:22.031 --> 00:28:23.173 like Elon Musk should be 00:28:23.212 --> 00:28:24.794 considered oligarch, right? 00:28:24.953 --> 00:28:26.855 Or maybe Buffett, 00:28:26.875 --> 00:28:28.276 because Buffett owns real estate. 00:28:29.776 --> 00:28:31.636 So what is the, 00:28:31.676 --> 00:28:32.597 why is it specifically 00:28:32.678 --> 00:28:33.759 Russia that has oligarchs, 00:28:33.818 --> 00:28:35.880 but it doesn't apply to other places? 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:36.039 Yeah. 00:28:36.707 --> 00:28:38.387 But that's like neither here nor there. 00:28:38.468 --> 00:28:39.208 That's just popping in. 00:28:39.228 --> 00:28:40.709 It can go away. 00:28:45.171 --> 00:28:48.432 Yeah, okay. 00:28:48.451 --> 00:28:48.731 Hang on. 00:28:48.912 --> 00:28:50.813 I had looked this up previously. 00:28:50.833 --> 00:28:51.993 I just needed a quick refresher. 00:28:52.493 --> 00:28:54.054 It's an oligarchy because 00:28:54.315 --> 00:28:57.096 they are in the sphere of 00:28:58.256 --> 00:29:00.096 the president and they are 00:29:00.237 --> 00:29:02.617 his friends who have become 00:29:02.678 --> 00:29:04.378 rich by being handed power 00:29:05.430 --> 00:29:07.550 to do business early on in the days. 00:29:07.671 --> 00:29:09.372 So the oligarchy is like a group, 00:29:10.051 --> 00:29:12.913 not a person. 00:29:12.933 --> 00:29:15.095 So it's like a blockchain versus, 00:29:15.255 --> 00:29:16.134 so it's not like, 00:29:16.295 --> 00:29:18.556 so American capitalism is a 00:29:18.635 --> 00:29:20.336 concentration of wealth, 00:29:20.497 --> 00:29:21.258 but it's still 00:29:21.417 --> 00:29:22.577 fundamentally a chaotic 00:29:22.597 --> 00:29:25.480 system on the whole with some collusion. 00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:29.321 Whereas the Russian version 00:29:29.342 --> 00:29:31.061 of capitalism is like a blockchain, 00:29:31.122 --> 00:29:32.202 I think is what Niles is trying to say. 00:29:32.934 --> 00:29:35.916 An oligarchy in America 00:29:36.136 --> 00:29:38.478 would be like P. Diddy and Co. 00:29:38.498 --> 00:29:48.003 What? 00:29:48.044 --> 00:29:48.304 You know, 00:29:48.663 --> 00:29:53.686 P. Diddy's little group of people. 00:29:53.787 --> 00:29:55.188 I'm only obviously aware of 00:29:55.228 --> 00:29:56.088 what's going on there. 00:29:56.108 --> 00:29:58.430 I'm picking up what you're putting down. 00:29:59.076 --> 00:29:59.776 Yeah, I'm only, 00:30:00.576 --> 00:30:01.356 I don't really know what's 00:30:01.396 --> 00:30:01.777 going on there. 00:30:01.817 --> 00:30:04.117 I was just trying to be, you know, 00:30:04.198 --> 00:30:04.758 up to date. 00:30:05.117 --> 00:30:08.199 Well, you're more up to date than I am, 00:30:08.219 --> 00:30:10.138 it looks like. 00:30:10.378 --> 00:30:16.840 Or, well, you know, like, take that away. 00:30:17.080 --> 00:30:18.261 The chat has kind of rightly 00:30:18.301 --> 00:30:20.422 suggested that the 00:30:20.461 --> 00:30:21.262 technical term for that is 00:30:21.323 --> 00:30:22.383 more of a plutocracy. 00:30:26.069 --> 00:30:28.192 Right, yeah, in the US. 00:30:28.211 --> 00:30:28.352 Ah, okay. 00:30:28.412 --> 00:30:32.134 Oligarchy is like a Greek thing. 00:30:32.154 --> 00:30:33.175 It's like a Greek word. 00:30:35.657 --> 00:30:37.519 But yeah, anyway, that's what it is. 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:39.941 So the oligarchy, 00:30:39.961 --> 00:30:42.702 and they use it in Russia 00:30:42.742 --> 00:30:43.584 because when they, 00:30:44.904 --> 00:30:45.786 like that's sort of what 00:30:45.826 --> 00:30:47.747 happened after they removed 00:30:47.807 --> 00:30:49.147 communism or it sort of 00:30:49.188 --> 00:30:50.449 came out of communism is 00:30:50.469 --> 00:30:52.270 that people who were close to the 00:30:54.106 --> 00:30:55.707 people in power were given 00:30:55.727 --> 00:30:57.028 the keys to the kingdom 00:30:57.208 --> 00:30:59.748 really to start industry. 00:31:00.667 --> 00:31:01.907 They were handed state run 00:31:01.948 --> 00:31:04.709 industry to run themselves 00:31:05.028 --> 00:31:06.249 privately and then became 00:31:06.328 --> 00:31:08.210 like ultra rich. 00:31:08.269 --> 00:31:08.730 Interesting. 00:31:08.970 --> 00:31:09.210 Okay. 00:31:09.309 --> 00:31:11.150 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:31:11.190 --> 00:31:11.529 Thank you. 00:31:11.930 --> 00:31:12.890 I didn't expect an actual 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:13.651 answer to come out of this, 00:31:13.671 --> 00:31:15.931 but that makes sense. 00:31:15.951 --> 00:31:19.172 Don't even know why I know that. 00:31:19.571 --> 00:31:21.672 It's probably common knowledge. 00:31:23.722 --> 00:31:24.963 relatively common knowledge 00:31:27.266 --> 00:31:28.787 yeah maybe I don't know I 00:31:28.826 --> 00:31:31.430 mean well yeah I only 00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:32.590 looked at it relatively 00:31:32.651 --> 00:31:34.592 recently I think I think I 00:31:34.632 --> 00:31:35.313 want to know what the word 00:31:35.353 --> 00:31:36.374 meant as well I was like 00:31:36.394 --> 00:31:37.013 what the fuck is this 00:31:37.094 --> 00:31:38.214 oligarchy they keep saying 00:31:39.977 --> 00:31:40.778 well actually so like a 00:31:40.798 --> 00:31:41.597 really good point would be 00:31:41.738 --> 00:31:43.420 it wasn't um you know uh 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.641 the the guy who founded 00:31:44.681 --> 00:31:47.103 wagner group uh the guy who 00:31:47.123 --> 00:31:49.305 got assassinated a while ago yeah 00:31:51.451 --> 00:31:52.951 um precaution he was 00:31:53.011 --> 00:31:54.973 literally um putin's cook 00:31:55.034 --> 00:31:56.875 wasn't he originally yeah 00:31:56.894 --> 00:31:58.856 yeah he was like oh god 00:31:58.876 --> 00:32:00.258 what's the film where it's 00:32:00.337 --> 00:32:03.200 like steven seagal's an 00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:04.461 overweight chef but you're 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:05.201 supposed to believe that 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:06.821 he's like a kung fu navy 00:32:06.862 --> 00:32:08.723 seal and tommy lee jones is 00:32:08.743 --> 00:32:10.545 the bad guy you know the 00:32:10.644 --> 00:32:14.248 one um under siege under 00:32:14.268 --> 00:32:17.150 siege yeah he moves so fucking slow yeah 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.599 Oh my God. 00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:21.240 Seriously. 00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:24.342 Have you seen any of the, like, 00:32:24.362 --> 00:32:25.202 they're too bad to watch. 00:32:25.222 --> 00:32:26.663 They're genuinely too bad to watch, 00:32:26.683 --> 00:32:28.305 but there are summaries on YouTube. 00:32:28.545 --> 00:32:30.705 Have you seen any of Steven 00:32:30.726 --> 00:32:34.087 Seagal's output the last ten years? 00:32:34.228 --> 00:32:36.828 It's fucking insane. 00:32:36.888 --> 00:32:40.010 Like, it's genuinely like 00:32:41.837 --> 00:32:43.618 not only is it conceptually 00:32:43.798 --> 00:32:45.638 mind-bending in terms of 00:32:45.719 --> 00:32:47.159 like the world view 00:32:47.199 --> 00:32:48.700 required to make the films 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.060 but also like he is now I'm 00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:54.580 gonna he must be close to 00:32:54.801 --> 00:32:58.281 seventy and he has not 00:32:58.321 --> 00:32:59.282 taken a lot of care of 00:32:59.323 --> 00:33:00.182 himself he's had a 00:33:00.202 --> 00:33:03.884 hamburger or two and it's just 00:33:05.569 --> 00:33:07.332 like there's credulity and 00:33:07.352 --> 00:33:08.613 then there's this and it's 00:33:08.772 --> 00:33:09.732 and also like he has that 00:33:09.792 --> 00:33:10.773 weird connection to the 00:33:10.814 --> 00:33:11.974 russian state as well 00:33:11.994 --> 00:33:12.915 doesn't he he's like a 00:33:12.996 --> 00:33:17.298 russian shill I think um so 00:33:17.318 --> 00:33:19.300 he's money for these movies 00:33:19.721 --> 00:33:20.321 well I was gonna say he 00:33:20.342 --> 00:33:20.961 knows where the money's 00:33:20.981 --> 00:33:23.743 coming from um was that 00:33:23.763 --> 00:33:25.826 there's quite often um when 00:33:25.846 --> 00:33:26.566 there's like a big 00:33:26.605 --> 00:33:27.928 political scandal that one 00:33:27.948 --> 00:33:28.788 day will come to light 00:33:28.807 --> 00:33:29.949 there's quite often dodgy 00:33:29.989 --> 00:33:31.650 movies somewhere in the uh 00:33:31.730 --> 00:33:33.311 in the org chart of the um 00:33:34.288 --> 00:33:36.090 of the impending political crisis. 00:33:36.131 --> 00:33:38.493 Like the, um, the, the guy, 00:33:39.055 --> 00:33:39.655 what was his name? 00:33:39.675 --> 00:33:40.457 I was about to say, 00:33:40.817 --> 00:33:44.521 what was the name of the guy that, um, Oh, 00:33:44.541 --> 00:33:44.842 there was this, 00:33:44.942 --> 00:33:46.703 there was a huge scandal a few years ago. 00:33:46.723 --> 00:33:47.285 And I was trying to remember 00:33:47.305 --> 00:33:47.925 the name of the guy. 00:33:47.965 --> 00:33:48.906 And I remember the guy was 00:33:48.926 --> 00:33:50.088 called guy hands. 00:33:50.169 --> 00:33:51.810 I think his name was literally guy. 00:33:52.692 --> 00:33:52.832 Um, 00:33:53.345 --> 00:33:55.885 And it turned out that one 00:33:55.925 --> 00:33:58.186 of the many things that he had been doing, 00:33:58.407 --> 00:33:59.587 aside from the main thing 00:33:59.627 --> 00:34:00.868 that was the scandal, 00:34:01.489 --> 00:34:04.810 was using a loophole in a 00:34:04.931 --> 00:34:06.892 tax thing to encourage 00:34:06.951 --> 00:34:08.373 British films to be made. 00:34:09.092 --> 00:34:10.534 To make all these weird, 00:34:10.733 --> 00:34:13.394 hyper low budget B-movies. 00:34:13.434 --> 00:34:14.436 Just so there were B-movies 00:34:14.496 --> 00:34:15.795 on the books of the companies. 00:34:16.436 --> 00:34:17.277 And then they could claim 00:34:17.317 --> 00:34:18.097 these tax reliefs. 00:34:18.518 --> 00:34:19.818 And then these movies were never shown. 00:34:19.858 --> 00:34:20.878 They were just made and then 00:34:20.938 --> 00:34:21.958 put on a shelf somewhere. 00:34:24.652 --> 00:34:26.295 there was like a documentary about, 00:34:26.534 --> 00:34:27.655 about some of this stuff 00:34:28.456 --> 00:34:30.157 and they got a hold of some of them. 00:34:30.318 --> 00:34:31.378 I say, just like, 00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:33.280 there's like the man with 00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:34.322 the lobster hands, 00:34:34.661 --> 00:34:36.704 lobster hands for hands or something. 00:34:36.724 --> 00:34:41.528 They were just, I mean, 00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:43.811 whatever you think that film, 00:34:43.891 --> 00:34:45.052 that what that film sounds 00:34:45.092 --> 00:34:45.873 like is what it, 00:34:47.411 --> 00:34:48.532 what it was and meanwhile he 00:34:48.552 --> 00:34:49.733 was like you know buying up 00:34:49.773 --> 00:34:50.873 distressed businesses and 00:34:50.893 --> 00:34:51.594 then running them into the 00:34:51.614 --> 00:34:56.275 ground um buying distressed 00:34:56.315 --> 00:34:57.356 businesses and making them 00:34:57.396 --> 00:34:59.597 more distressed yeah well 00:34:59.617 --> 00:35:00.657 so I think he was like one 00:35:00.677 --> 00:35:02.538 of the first um I think 00:35:02.557 --> 00:35:03.239 that was one of the first 00:35:03.278 --> 00:35:04.298 scandals where somebody 00:35:04.338 --> 00:35:05.559 worked out it was in a lot 00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:06.840 of cases more profitable 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:08.221 when a business is 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.181 experiencing um let's say 00:35:10.202 --> 00:35:11.242 like a liquidity crunch on 00:35:11.322 --> 00:35:13.163 its balance sheet like a 00:35:13.222 --> 00:35:15.483 high street retailer let's say um 00:35:16.396 --> 00:35:18.438 to just take them over and 00:35:18.458 --> 00:35:21.302 then gut the company for parts, 00:35:23.605 --> 00:35:24.646 but have no interest in 00:35:24.706 --> 00:35:25.786 keeping the company. 00:35:25.806 --> 00:35:25.967 Yeah, 00:35:26.027 --> 00:35:27.548 companies that are worth more 00:35:28.028 --> 00:35:29.490 liquidated than they are as 00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:30.391 operating companies. 00:35:30.652 --> 00:35:30.952 Exactly. 00:35:31.393 --> 00:35:32.574 You don't want it because 00:35:32.594 --> 00:35:33.494 it's a going concern, 00:35:33.594 --> 00:35:34.356 even though it could be 00:35:34.576 --> 00:35:36.197 brought back to being a going concern. 00:35:36.677 --> 00:35:38.039 Well, it might still be profitable. 00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:40.811 but it is more profitable to 00:35:40.831 --> 00:35:41.711 just fucking sell it. 00:35:42.333 --> 00:35:42.552 Yes. 00:35:42.773 --> 00:35:43.793 Just rip it apart and then 00:35:43.833 --> 00:35:44.954 sell the chunks off. 00:35:44.994 --> 00:35:45.655 Yeah, exactly. 00:35:45.695 --> 00:35:46.416 So it was that kind of 00:35:46.755 --> 00:35:47.697 disaster capitalism. 00:35:47.717 --> 00:35:48.536 I think he was one of the 00:35:48.577 --> 00:35:49.398 first people that was kind 00:35:49.438 --> 00:35:51.280 of using that sort of... 00:35:53.085 --> 00:35:53.806 playbook and one of the 00:35:53.826 --> 00:35:54.467 things that they were doing 00:35:54.487 --> 00:35:56.306 on the side to to juice 00:35:56.327 --> 00:35:57.188 their balance sheet was 00:35:57.268 --> 00:35:58.208 making these fucking 00:35:58.248 --> 00:35:59.809 bananas b movies that never 00:35:59.829 --> 00:36:01.068 got aired or if they got 00:36:01.248 --> 00:36:02.150 aired they got showed like 00:36:02.349 --> 00:36:03.969 one cinema once at like two 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:08.851 in the morning uh and uh 00:36:08.871 --> 00:36:09.672 I'll see if I can find a 00:36:09.731 --> 00:36:10.932 link for that for the uh 00:36:10.972 --> 00:36:11.893 for the show notes so that 00:36:11.932 --> 00:36:13.773 you surfer genuinely is like 00:36:14.382 --> 00:36:15.744 what the hell have you guys been on? 00:36:16.123 --> 00:36:19.907 Um, but, uh, yeah, I just, 00:36:20.047 --> 00:36:20.807 I just have this very, 00:36:20.987 --> 00:36:23.309 very vivid mental image of 00:36:23.349 --> 00:36:24.952 a man with two lobster claws, 00:36:25.032 --> 00:36:25.911 very poorly. 00:36:26.032 --> 00:36:28.434 Like we're not talking good prosthetics, 00:36:28.454 --> 00:36:30.096 bad prosthetics. 00:36:30.115 --> 00:36:33.398 And that, and that was one of the films. 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.541 Um, shorty off the movie topic. 00:36:38.822 --> 00:36:40.824 I have a question for you, friend. 00:36:41.844 --> 00:36:41.925 Um, 00:36:43.326 --> 00:36:45.186 can it be in two minutes 00:36:45.266 --> 00:36:46.188 because I have to take off 00:36:46.208 --> 00:36:49.329 in two minutes shoot and 00:36:49.349 --> 00:36:52.152 I'll try I can't even say 00:36:52.192 --> 00:36:53.072 it in two minutes so okay 00:36:53.092 --> 00:36:59.195 yeah um I don't know maybe 00:36:59.235 --> 00:37:00.257 you can is there another 00:37:00.317 --> 00:37:01.737 representative from l five 00:37:01.757 --> 00:37:02.577 that can come up here and 00:37:02.637 --> 00:37:06.260 answer my question unlikely 00:37:07.561 --> 00:37:08.202 do you want to know about 00:37:08.242 --> 00:37:09.742 lavender five specifically like 00:37:10.563 --> 00:37:10.822 Well, 00:37:10.862 --> 00:37:13.125 it's just to do with services you run. 00:37:13.144 --> 00:37:14.045 I wanted to have a technical 00:37:14.085 --> 00:37:16.487 conversation about aspects, 00:37:16.686 --> 00:37:17.347 but that's all right. 00:37:17.387 --> 00:37:18.268 We can do that next week. 00:37:18.288 --> 00:37:19.889 I'm not going anywhere. 00:37:20.588 --> 00:37:21.449 Unfortunately not. 00:37:22.510 --> 00:37:24.331 Erdeman is already asleep by now normally, 00:37:24.431 --> 00:37:24.791 I think. 00:37:27.012 --> 00:37:28.574 And other folks are doing other things. 00:37:29.054 --> 00:37:30.695 What TZ is Erdeman? 00:37:32.817 --> 00:37:32.996 What? 00:37:33.711 --> 00:37:35.873 what time zone utc plus two 00:37:35.913 --> 00:37:39.434 I think okay that makes 00:37:39.474 --> 00:37:41.014 sense yeah I hardly ever 00:37:41.034 --> 00:37:43.436 seen yeah this is too far 00:37:43.476 --> 00:37:49.798 offset for uh for no um 00:37:49.838 --> 00:37:53.320 yeah so uh big is is is 00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:54.601 your engagement that you're 00:37:54.621 --> 00:37:55.561 going to I forgot what it 00:37:55.601 --> 00:37:57.362 was is it uh is it 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.461 what what's what kind of are 00:38:01.481 --> 00:38:02.943 you rushing off for for 00:38:03.003 --> 00:38:04.043 care duties or are you 00:38:04.083 --> 00:38:05.885 rushing off for a prior 00:38:05.925 --> 00:38:08.648 engagement care duties for 00:38:09.007 --> 00:38:10.509 um someone else's prior 00:38:10.528 --> 00:38:13.311 engagement yep oh okay yeah 00:38:13.371 --> 00:38:15.532 well that makes sense um I 00:38:15.552 --> 00:38:16.594 thought about just bringing 00:38:16.634 --> 00:38:19.536 my little dude uh here to 00:38:19.556 --> 00:38:20.597 look after during the 00:38:20.637 --> 00:38:23.420 podcast but they make quite 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:25.141 a bit of noise so I thought 00:38:25.161 --> 00:38:26.282 that might not be like 00:38:26.646 --> 00:38:27.911 They do, don't they? 00:38:27.952 --> 00:38:29.336 To a podcast environment. 00:38:30.652 --> 00:38:30.891 Yeah, 00:38:30.992 --> 00:38:32.952 and he's been especially tough lately. 00:38:33.211 --> 00:38:34.753 He's at this phase where 00:38:35.193 --> 00:38:36.172 previously he would at 00:38:36.193 --> 00:38:37.612 least sleep really well on you. 00:38:38.213 --> 00:38:39.934 Right now he's not even 00:38:39.974 --> 00:38:40.753 sleeping very well. 00:38:41.333 --> 00:38:42.494 You can get him to sleep pretty quick, 00:38:42.653 --> 00:38:44.673 and then you'll be in just 00:38:44.693 --> 00:38:45.215 the right position, 00:38:45.275 --> 00:38:45.994 and then you move your arm 00:38:46.014 --> 00:38:47.135 a little bit because he gets tired, 00:38:47.474 --> 00:38:48.534 and then he immediately 00:38:48.675 --> 00:38:52.016 snaps his eyes open and is super unhappy. 00:38:52.096 --> 00:38:52.996 What's happening, man? 00:38:53.916 --> 00:38:55.195 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:55.275 --> 00:38:57.297 And so I'm just completely 00:38:57.336 --> 00:38:58.237 spent because... 00:38:59.536 --> 00:39:01.498 I've been up for about 00:39:01.538 --> 00:39:02.679 fourteen hours at this point. 00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:05.639 Most of it holding a crying baby. 00:39:06.481 --> 00:39:07.001 Damn, man. 00:39:07.021 --> 00:39:07.681 Sorry to hear that. 00:39:08.322 --> 00:39:09.902 I know your your schedule is 00:39:09.922 --> 00:39:11.342 getting up quite early now as well. 00:39:11.402 --> 00:39:14.425 So keeping you up late is not great. 00:39:15.405 --> 00:39:17.907 It's hopefully soon will be. 00:39:17.927 --> 00:39:18.467 That's my time. 00:39:18.507 --> 00:39:18.847 All right. 00:39:19.807 --> 00:39:20.907 Bye, guys. 00:39:20.967 --> 00:39:21.809 Have fun. 00:39:21.849 --> 00:39:22.128 Peace. 00:39:26.849 --> 00:39:28.568 So, Deaf Name the Prey, 00:39:28.648 --> 00:39:32.329 how is your studies coming along? 00:39:32.789 --> 00:39:34.469 Have you finalized the 00:39:34.530 --> 00:39:40.331 results from your survey of the people? 00:39:40.911 --> 00:39:41.532 Yeah. 00:39:41.572 --> 00:39:42.431 Proof of stake's fucked. 00:39:43.032 --> 00:39:44.211 That's the conclusion. 00:39:45.711 --> 00:39:47.193 But also YOLO. 00:39:47.233 --> 00:39:48.753 Whatever, man. 00:39:48.833 --> 00:39:52.173 It's fine. 00:39:52.213 --> 00:39:53.333 So, you know what? 00:39:53.494 --> 00:39:54.094 Okay, so... 00:39:56.317 --> 00:39:57.117 I think something very, 00:39:57.338 --> 00:39:59.619 very weird has happened, right? 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:01.880 Which is that I think the 00:40:02.001 --> 00:40:03.141 experience of the Juno 00:40:03.181 --> 00:40:06.184 thing and how and all of 00:40:06.224 --> 00:40:07.324 that and like working on 00:40:07.385 --> 00:40:08.686 how for nearly a year and 00:40:08.726 --> 00:40:10.887 writing like a lot of code 00:40:11.228 --> 00:40:12.548 and having to do a lot of 00:40:12.628 --> 00:40:13.929 legal stuff and everything. 00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:15.231 And then that all falling 00:40:15.271 --> 00:40:16.472 flat on its face because 00:40:16.532 --> 00:40:17.492 the chain was fucked and 00:40:17.532 --> 00:40:18.753 all this kind of shit, like whatever. 00:40:18.833 --> 00:40:19.934 I've gone over it a load of times, 00:40:19.994 --> 00:40:22.335 but I think it's taken a 00:40:22.396 --> 00:40:24.777 long period of time to like really like 00:40:26.715 --> 00:40:27.054 I don't know, 00:40:27.074 --> 00:40:28.036 like you can intellectually 00:40:28.056 --> 00:40:29.137 know something was a pain in the butt, 00:40:29.157 --> 00:40:30.038 took loads of time, 00:40:30.358 --> 00:40:31.539 took loads of mental energy 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:33.260 and then fucking ended up as nothing. 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:35.983 And I, you know, I do know. 00:40:39.815 --> 00:40:41.056 albeit you know didn't get 00:40:41.096 --> 00:40:42.016 as wrecked as some people 00:40:42.036 --> 00:40:43.717 did like you know a lot of 00:40:43.737 --> 00:40:44.918 retail events got seriously 00:40:44.938 --> 00:40:45.760 fucking wrecked by that 00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:46.960 whole mess including prop 00:40:47.501 --> 00:40:48.782 and that's like a really 00:40:48.822 --> 00:40:49.822 shitty show and I think 00:40:49.842 --> 00:40:52.105 that's like ah surreal drag 00:40:52.144 --> 00:40:53.306 like I feel very very bad 00:40:53.326 --> 00:40:54.365 about that because like 00:40:54.425 --> 00:40:56.487 however bad it was for 00:40:56.527 --> 00:40:57.768 people inside it who really 00:40:57.809 --> 00:40:59.150 had no control of the plane 00:40:59.170 --> 00:41:00.231 crashing into the mountain 00:41:00.251 --> 00:41:01.172 and I think that includes 00:41:01.512 --> 00:41:02.452 all of us that worked on it 00:41:03.248 --> 00:41:04.489 um who weren't in core one 00:41:05.730 --> 00:41:08.130 like you know yeah at least 00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:09.449 for a time I was getting 00:41:09.489 --> 00:41:10.630 paid by the the chain or 00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:11.510 whatever and you know we 00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:12.271 did make some money out of 00:41:12.291 --> 00:41:13.050 the name service and blah 00:41:13.070 --> 00:41:13.831 blah blah so it didn't 00:41:13.871 --> 00:41:15.492 leave with nothing but it's 00:41:15.512 --> 00:41:16.271 taking like a really really 00:41:16.311 --> 00:41:17.291 long time I think to get 00:41:17.371 --> 00:41:20.072 over to kind of like move 00:41:20.112 --> 00:41:20.992 on from that or whatever 00:41:21.032 --> 00:41:23.072 and I think like uh I'd 00:41:23.193 --> 00:41:23.853 under mess I've 00:41:24.193 --> 00:41:25.554 consistently underestimated 00:41:25.574 --> 00:41:27.014 the point at which I've actually been 00:41:28.014 --> 00:41:29.036 over that and ready to 00:41:29.076 --> 00:41:30.677 re-engage with crypto at all. 00:41:31.117 --> 00:41:31.717 And I think what's been 00:41:31.737 --> 00:41:32.338 interesting about this 00:41:32.378 --> 00:41:34.661 paper is that in some way, 00:41:35.420 --> 00:41:36.822 going through the process 00:41:37.103 --> 00:41:40.164 of having to itemize a 00:41:40.204 --> 00:41:42.967 bunch of failure modes that 00:41:43.027 --> 00:41:44.648 you might theorize about a 00:41:44.708 --> 00:41:45.769 certain type of 00:41:48.050 --> 00:41:49.492 technical structure to a 00:41:49.532 --> 00:41:51.293 distributed ledger but also 00:41:51.413 --> 00:41:53.094 the incentives that govern 00:41:53.134 --> 00:41:54.875 it and also like real world 00:41:54.914 --> 00:41:55.735 stuff and also how 00:41:55.795 --> 00:41:56.976 validators operate how 00:41:57.016 --> 00:41:58.036 foundations operate and how 00:41:58.056 --> 00:41:59.878 these people do or don't 00:41:59.918 --> 00:42:01.039 trust each other or do or 00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:02.139 don't cooperate or whatever 00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:03.239 like all that stuff 00:42:03.260 --> 00:42:08.682 combined I think um weirdly 00:42:08.822 --> 00:42:10.143 has kind of brought me back 00:42:10.184 --> 00:42:13.005 around into the tent like 00:42:13.045 --> 00:42:14.927 not I wouldn't say like I'm 00:42:20.396 --> 00:42:20.737 I don't know. 00:42:20.836 --> 00:42:21.117 I think I'm, 00:42:21.137 --> 00:42:22.840 I think I'm too jaded to do 00:42:22.900 --> 00:42:26.264 the whole go work for, 00:42:26.324 --> 00:42:28.327 with a core team again and 00:42:28.367 --> 00:42:29.449 do the rodeo again, 00:42:29.548 --> 00:42:31.152 because I think the chance 00:42:31.192 --> 00:42:33.014 of user harm with where we 00:42:33.054 --> 00:42:33.976 currently are with the 00:42:34.016 --> 00:42:35.438 technology is so high. 00:42:36.782 --> 00:42:38.202 that I just I don't think my 00:42:38.242 --> 00:42:39.443 conscience can take that if 00:42:39.503 --> 00:42:43.123 I'm completely honest um 00:42:43.164 --> 00:42:44.244 but I think I feel I do 00:42:44.284 --> 00:42:45.625 feel better about the stuff 00:42:45.664 --> 00:42:46.905 that we do as a validation 00:42:46.965 --> 00:42:47.824 and beginning to feel 00:42:47.885 --> 00:42:49.085 better about understanding 00:42:49.106 --> 00:42:49.905 where we're going to go as 00:42:49.965 --> 00:42:52.425 a business and so that's 00:42:52.485 --> 00:42:53.405 not really an answer to the 00:42:53.445 --> 00:42:55.226 question of like how is the 00:42:55.847 --> 00:42:57.166 research going but the 00:42:57.186 --> 00:42:58.306 research is going quite 00:42:58.367 --> 00:43:00.208 well but I think what the 00:43:00.367 --> 00:43:01.967 research going well has 00:43:02.427 --> 00:43:04.108 ended up weirdly doing is 00:43:04.148 --> 00:43:05.489 making me feel better about 00:43:06.922 --> 00:43:07.543 not only better, 00:43:07.563 --> 00:43:09.864 but I think meant I'm 00:43:09.925 --> 00:43:10.945 beginning to have more of 00:43:10.965 --> 00:43:12.666 an idea of where the business is going. 00:43:13.106 --> 00:43:14.467 And that's not something is 00:43:14.766 --> 00:43:15.987 maybe it's something I hoped for. 00:43:16.068 --> 00:43:16.827 I don't really know, 00:43:16.867 --> 00:43:17.728 but it's definitely not 00:43:17.748 --> 00:43:19.849 something I necessarily expected. 00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:25.431 Uh, so yeah, 00:43:25.452 --> 00:43:27.293 that's a roundabout way of saying good, 00:43:27.672 --> 00:43:27.994 I guess. 00:43:28.014 --> 00:43:28.134 Yeah. 00:43:28.153 --> 00:43:31.675 Okay. 00:43:31.715 --> 00:43:33.456 Um, well, it's interesting. 00:43:33.516 --> 00:43:34.056 I mean, yeah. 00:43:34.077 --> 00:43:34.117 Uh, 00:43:36.411 --> 00:43:39.032 Usually it's life that feeds 00:43:39.092 --> 00:43:40.875 into your research and not 00:43:40.934 --> 00:43:41.976 the other way around, I guess. 00:43:44.518 --> 00:43:45.257 Interesting that you're 00:43:45.277 --> 00:43:46.318 finding some direction in 00:43:46.338 --> 00:43:47.599 your business as a result 00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:49.922 of learnings from research. 00:43:50.802 --> 00:43:52.923 But I think it's also where 00:43:52.983 --> 00:43:53.704 research leads you. 00:43:53.885 --> 00:43:57.288 If you do research in a fintech context, 00:43:57.367 --> 00:43:59.349 in a financial computing context, 00:43:59.528 --> 00:44:00.931 in a computer science department, 00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:03.371 in a city which has one of the biggest... 00:44:04.193 --> 00:44:06.534 financial services um setups 00:44:06.713 --> 00:44:08.795 in the entire world you 00:44:08.815 --> 00:44:11.195 just end up encountering 00:44:11.534 --> 00:44:12.596 more stuff in that space 00:44:12.655 --> 00:44:13.815 right just by necessity 00:44:13.856 --> 00:44:16.217 that's like where the it's 00:44:16.237 --> 00:44:17.097 where the department is 00:44:17.177 --> 00:44:18.878 aiming brain power for 00:44:18.998 --> 00:44:20.117 partnerships and blah blah 00:44:20.137 --> 00:44:21.278 blah it's where the 00:44:21.378 --> 00:44:22.778 university is aiming stuff 00:44:23.438 --> 00:44:25.300 it's where the city itself 00:44:25.420 --> 00:44:26.760 center of gravity is right 00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:28.320 and I think like you 00:44:32.135 --> 00:44:33.376 for all the things that are 00:44:33.436 --> 00:44:35.157 wrong about the space we're 00:44:35.237 --> 00:44:38.561 in and all of the all of 00:44:38.581 --> 00:44:40.001 the fucking bullshit that 00:44:40.181 --> 00:44:41.543 means that when you have 00:44:41.623 --> 00:44:42.884 you're at a family event or 00:44:42.963 --> 00:44:45.365 a social event and somebody 00:44:45.405 --> 00:44:46.547 mentions crypto and you're 00:44:46.567 --> 00:44:47.608 just like you roll your 00:44:47.748 --> 00:44:48.527 eyes and then you remember 00:44:48.547 --> 00:44:49.909 you work in this space but 00:44:49.949 --> 00:44:51.871 like that feeling where 00:44:51.911 --> 00:44:54.512 you're like oh just oh god 00:44:55.342 --> 00:44:57.623 like all the ways that crypto is cringe, 00:44:57.663 --> 00:44:58.702 I guess what I'm getting at, 00:44:59.483 --> 00:45:00.324 because there are a bunch 00:45:00.344 --> 00:45:01.684 of ways in which it's quite cringe. 00:45:02.045 --> 00:45:06.527 You do realize that like 00:45:12.128 --> 00:45:14.110 there are some very strong benefits, 00:45:14.170 --> 00:45:15.931 like the ability to enter 00:45:16.851 --> 00:45:18.931 as a business or as a 00:45:19.012 --> 00:45:19.952 technical practitioner 00:45:20.132 --> 00:45:20.833 where you know what you're 00:45:20.853 --> 00:45:23.153 doing and you have an idea of like 00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:25.639 what you want to build out 00:45:26.240 --> 00:45:28.740 is actually quite unmatched currently, 00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:30.742 especially in the market we're in, 00:45:30.802 --> 00:45:31.541 in tech at the moment, 00:45:31.842 --> 00:45:33.322 where there's just layoffs everywhere. 00:45:34.262 --> 00:45:35.623 Even in the context of a bear market, 00:45:35.643 --> 00:45:36.204 I think there's probably 00:45:36.304 --> 00:45:37.983 more opportunity for small 00:45:38.003 --> 00:45:39.045 and early stage companies 00:45:39.065 --> 00:45:40.085 in the crypto market than 00:45:40.105 --> 00:45:40.925 there is in almost any 00:45:41.005 --> 00:45:43.025 other bit of the tech market. 00:45:45.365 --> 00:45:46.407 But I think there's also, 00:45:50.148 --> 00:45:51.527 I think more than opportunity, 00:45:51.547 --> 00:45:53.208 because just opportunity is like whatever, 00:45:53.248 --> 00:45:53.449 man. 00:45:54.264 --> 00:45:54.565 Like, 00:45:55.405 --> 00:45:56.887 there are still problems to be solved 00:45:56.907 --> 00:45:57.889 that aren't fucking 00:45:57.929 --> 00:45:59.990 derivatives that are interesting, right? 00:46:00.692 --> 00:46:03.655 And because we're in a bear market, 00:46:03.755 --> 00:46:05.336 no cunt is trying to solve them. 00:46:05.396 --> 00:46:05.956 And that's fine. 00:46:06.077 --> 00:46:06.657 That's okay. 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:08.139 But we're not going to be in 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:09.021 a bear market forever. 00:46:10.081 --> 00:46:10.561 And also, 00:46:10.581 --> 00:46:12.103 we're not going to be in a market where 00:46:13.657 --> 00:46:15.639 every token is fucking 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:16.880 volatile all the time. 00:46:17.021 --> 00:46:17.681 You can see this with the 00:46:17.701 --> 00:46:19.262 interest in stable coins and whatnot. 00:46:19.702 --> 00:46:20.623 The fact that things run on 00:46:20.684 --> 00:46:22.525 ledgers doesn't necessarily 00:46:22.625 --> 00:46:23.786 necessitate a shit coin and 00:46:23.806 --> 00:46:24.387 it won't forever. 00:46:24.827 --> 00:46:25.027 But 00:46:25.851 --> 00:46:26.731 And we were talking about 00:46:26.791 --> 00:46:28.311 this the other day. 00:46:28.512 --> 00:46:30.452 I was at a conference on 00:46:30.512 --> 00:46:32.932 payments and I sent you a 00:46:32.952 --> 00:46:33.893 message saying something like, oh, 00:46:33.932 --> 00:46:34.813 everybody's bigging up 00:46:35.173 --> 00:46:37.134 Australians for being good at payments. 00:46:37.693 --> 00:46:38.333 And you were like, oh, 00:46:38.353 --> 00:46:38.914 of course we are because 00:46:38.934 --> 00:46:40.275 we're great cunts or something like that. 00:46:40.375 --> 00:46:42.094 And I said, well, what's interesting, 00:46:42.135 --> 00:46:44.175 right, is that the peak of ambition, 00:46:44.795 --> 00:46:45.936 the peak of ambition for a 00:46:45.976 --> 00:46:48.936 bank doing payment stuff 00:46:49.356 --> 00:46:53.697 seems to be recurring variable payments, 00:46:54.418 --> 00:46:55.458 RVP. 00:46:57.699 --> 00:46:59.201 I think it's RVP, something like that, 00:46:59.260 --> 00:46:59.460 anyway. 00:47:00.402 --> 00:47:03.704 Which seems just ridiculously simple. 00:47:04.286 --> 00:47:04.686 Yeah, so, 00:47:06.568 --> 00:47:07.469 I mean... I sent you the API 00:47:07.509 --> 00:47:08.710 documentation, I think, for this, 00:47:08.750 --> 00:47:09.931 which is just... Yeah, 00:47:10.092 --> 00:47:11.873 it's literally an if 00:47:11.914 --> 00:47:15.157 statement around a direct debit, 00:47:15.297 --> 00:47:16.077 essentially, right? 00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:16.739 And... 00:47:18.219 --> 00:47:22.963 And to be fair, from my understanding, 00:47:23.965 --> 00:47:24.965 which is very limited, 00:47:25.146 --> 00:47:26.748 and people's private opinions, 00:47:27.027 --> 00:47:27.929 which obviously can't be 00:47:27.949 --> 00:47:29.530 trusted necessarily, but whatever, 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:31.811 that there are people that 00:47:31.851 --> 00:47:34.315 want to do more with the 00:47:34.355 --> 00:47:35.376 technology than just that. 00:47:36.206 --> 00:47:38.369 But even the regulatory 00:47:38.409 --> 00:47:39.969 position around that is complicated, 00:47:40.030 --> 00:47:41.632 let alone the technology 00:47:42.192 --> 00:47:43.152 and getting other banks 00:47:43.193 --> 00:47:44.213 involved to build 00:47:44.773 --> 00:47:45.974 supporting infrastructure. 00:47:46.775 --> 00:47:51.599 And so the long and short of 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:57.945 this is that at a thing about payments, 00:47:58.226 --> 00:47:59.327 the two things that were 00:47:59.347 --> 00:48:00.467 like these are the 00:48:00.668 --> 00:48:02.728 ambitious things were open banking. 00:48:03.567 --> 00:48:04.427 Which is essentially, 00:48:04.527 --> 00:48:05.987 open banking is essentially 00:48:06.027 --> 00:48:06.867 a way of saying, 00:48:07.347 --> 00:48:08.487 a way of transferring money 00:48:08.527 --> 00:48:09.608 point to point that doesn't 00:48:09.628 --> 00:48:11.889 involve Visa or MasterCard in the UK. 00:48:12.148 --> 00:48:13.250 Because Visa or MasterCard 00:48:14.230 --> 00:48:15.590 own and control most of the payment rails, 00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:15.869 right? 00:48:16.831 --> 00:48:17.510 So it's a way of doing a 00:48:17.550 --> 00:48:18.490 payment without having a 00:48:18.550 --> 00:48:21.391 debit card or a credit card, right? 00:48:21.731 --> 00:48:23.371 So typically it's talking 00:48:23.391 --> 00:48:24.313 about bank to bank payments. 00:48:25.052 --> 00:48:27.072 The second highest ambition 00:48:27.112 --> 00:48:30.014 thing is recurring variable payments, 00:48:30.054 --> 00:48:31.054 which is an if statement 00:48:31.195 --> 00:48:32.815 around a payment. 00:48:35.019 --> 00:48:36.681 And so I come away from that thinking, 00:48:36.721 --> 00:48:38.121 look, for all the faults, 00:48:38.161 --> 00:48:39.081 for all the problems, 00:48:39.101 --> 00:48:40.442 for all the stupidity, 00:48:40.501 --> 00:48:41.822 for all the venality, 00:48:42.382 --> 00:48:43.682 for all of the outright 00:48:43.822 --> 00:48:48.423 fraud and criminality in our sector. 00:48:48.503 --> 00:48:49.483 If you look for it, 00:48:50.083 --> 00:48:51.844 the one thing that there is 00:48:52.105 --> 00:48:54.206 in this sector is ambition. 00:48:55.005 --> 00:48:57.385 Often there is too much ambition, 00:48:57.507 --> 00:48:59.947 like ambition so far beyond 00:49:00.027 --> 00:49:02.487 team's ability to technically deliver it. 00:49:04.561 --> 00:49:05.844 That is actually a bit 00:49:05.923 --> 00:49:08.628 embarrassing for everybody involved, 00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:11.112 but there is nevertheless ambition. 00:49:11.452 --> 00:49:12.134 And so, you know, 00:49:12.173 --> 00:49:14.317 I kind of came away and 00:49:14.418 --> 00:49:15.398 I've had a few of these 00:49:15.438 --> 00:49:16.481 situations recently where. 00:49:16.922 --> 00:49:18.182 I've kind of come away from stuff and gone, 00:49:18.403 --> 00:49:19.224 okay, well, you know, 00:49:19.824 --> 00:49:21.364 but whatever happened to, you know, 00:49:21.405 --> 00:49:22.965 reach for the stars kid, like, uh, 00:49:24.186 --> 00:49:28.387 you know, uh, I, 00:49:28.407 --> 00:49:29.987 I think maybe we said in this sector, 00:49:30.007 --> 00:49:30.847 we sometimes do it for all 00:49:30.867 --> 00:49:35.630 the wrong reasons, but like, um, and, 00:49:35.670 --> 00:49:36.750 you know, maybe hit and hope, 00:49:36.989 --> 00:49:38.630 hit and hope, you know, 00:49:38.670 --> 00:49:39.971 written on a piece of a four paper, 00:49:40.010 --> 00:49:41.811 isn't a business plan, but, um, 00:49:42.494 --> 00:49:42.735 Like, 00:49:42.835 --> 00:49:45.115 I guess it's like you spend a little 00:49:45.135 --> 00:49:46.697 bit of time in the kind of 00:49:46.717 --> 00:49:47.737 traditional finance sector 00:49:47.757 --> 00:49:49.478 and you kind of realize, well, that, yeah, 00:49:49.818 --> 00:49:50.518 especially in that kind of 00:49:50.998 --> 00:49:52.318 sublime to the ridiculous 00:49:52.398 --> 00:49:58.322 type contrast or comparison, right? 00:49:59.461 --> 00:49:59.762 You know, 00:49:59.862 --> 00:50:01.163 like you can end up feeling a bit 00:50:01.202 --> 00:50:02.202 more positive about all the 00:50:02.222 --> 00:50:04.043 shit that we do, like in terms of like, 00:50:05.844 --> 00:50:06.204 fuck, 00:50:06.224 --> 00:50:07.505 something useful has got to come out 00:50:07.565 --> 00:50:08.905 of it because at least 00:50:08.925 --> 00:50:10.047 things are being tried and 00:50:10.126 --> 00:50:10.827 things are really... 00:50:19.505 --> 00:50:22.628 There's not like the, 00:50:22.648 --> 00:50:23.628 for better or for worse, 00:50:23.809 --> 00:50:25.329 there's not the fear of 00:50:25.469 --> 00:50:27.170 failing necessarily, right? 00:50:27.690 --> 00:50:30.431 And, you know, 00:50:30.452 --> 00:50:31.193 there is a question of 00:50:31.233 --> 00:50:32.313 whether or not it's 00:50:32.333 --> 00:50:33.753 appropriate to come into a 00:50:33.773 --> 00:50:34.494 situation where you're 00:50:34.514 --> 00:50:36.695 dealing with real money and 00:50:36.735 --> 00:50:38.117 real people's money with an 00:50:38.197 --> 00:50:39.797 attitude that you're not afraid to fail. 00:50:40.458 --> 00:50:42.139 But at the moment, 00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:43.139 there is that luxury of 00:50:43.219 --> 00:50:44.480 experimentation in this space. 00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:45.721 And I think that is a positive thing. 00:50:46.467 --> 00:50:47.007 It's actually a very 00:50:47.068 --> 00:50:48.289 positive thing in a lot of ways. 00:50:48.949 --> 00:50:50.148 And I think the one thing 00:50:50.188 --> 00:50:53.210 that I'm still not 00:50:53.250 --> 00:50:54.391 comfortable with is the way 00:50:54.411 --> 00:50:56.190 that teams abuse trust, I think. 00:50:56.610 --> 00:50:58.351 But I am more positive about 00:50:58.411 --> 00:50:59.751 the opportunities in this space. 00:50:59.791 --> 00:51:01.632 And I'm getting more so the 00:51:01.672 --> 00:51:03.032 more that I engage with the 00:51:03.052 --> 00:51:05.653 traditional finance sector, I suppose. 00:51:07.474 --> 00:51:08.155 It's the teams. 00:51:08.755 --> 00:51:10.416 It's not the sector that's bumming me out. 00:51:10.496 --> 00:51:11.655 It's the way the teams treat 00:51:11.675 --> 00:51:12.775 their users that's bumming 00:51:12.815 --> 00:51:13.657 me out still a bit. 00:51:13.936 --> 00:51:14.936 But hey. 00:51:20.384 --> 00:51:25.268 I mean, what are you going to do? 00:51:25.487 --> 00:51:26.730 That's not within my control, man. 00:51:26.750 --> 00:51:29.851 Yeah, I get it. 00:51:30.333 --> 00:51:33.355 But the user space is also 00:51:34.235 --> 00:51:36.757 quite often people coming 00:51:36.818 --> 00:51:39.181 into this industry are like, 00:51:40.996 --> 00:51:42.356 have a get-rich-quick type 00:51:42.396 --> 00:51:43.757 of attitude as well. 00:51:43.777 --> 00:51:45.559 They're trying to... I'm not 00:51:45.579 --> 00:51:46.938 saying this is always the case, 00:51:46.958 --> 00:51:49.760 but a lot of times the 00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.722 users are here to try and 00:51:54.362 --> 00:51:56.304 use a system that is quite 00:51:56.344 --> 00:51:58.985 chaotic and broken in a way 00:51:59.005 --> 00:52:00.346 that they can make a quick profit. 00:52:03.987 --> 00:52:04.228 Sure, 00:52:04.288 --> 00:52:05.568 and I think they're a hundred percent 00:52:05.608 --> 00:52:06.469 encouraged to do that. 00:52:06.969 --> 00:52:08.050 I think it's a two-way street, 00:52:08.070 --> 00:52:08.811 you're right, but... 00:52:09.795 --> 00:52:11.056 I do think there is a little bit of, 00:52:13.557 --> 00:52:15.760 there's like an asymmetry at play where, 00:52:16.420 --> 00:52:16.980 you know, somebody, 00:52:17.019 --> 00:52:18.260 if a normal rank and file 00:52:18.380 --> 00:52:19.181 user gets wrecked for a 00:52:19.222 --> 00:52:21.603 thousand dollars for a lot of, 00:52:22.023 --> 00:52:23.324 for a lot of people, for most people, 00:52:23.766 --> 00:52:24.706 that is a lot of money. 00:52:24.905 --> 00:52:26.286 And like for a foundation 00:52:26.306 --> 00:52:27.068 and for some of the people 00:52:27.108 --> 00:52:28.168 that are kind of at the top 00:52:28.208 --> 00:52:31.590 of this food chain in this industry, 00:52:31.791 --> 00:52:33.333 that would be chicken feed. 00:52:33.413 --> 00:52:34.793 And I think there is a little bit of a, 00:52:39.025 --> 00:52:41.347 I think my caution over user 00:52:41.387 --> 00:52:43.068 harm is that we are in a 00:52:43.409 --> 00:52:44.650 space kind of politically 00:52:44.690 --> 00:52:48.653 and economically where people are. 00:52:50.976 --> 00:52:52.297 The fact that get rich 00:52:52.358 --> 00:52:55.340 schemes are not just in crypto, 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:56.382 but throughout the economy. 00:52:56.422 --> 00:52:58.023 And that's always been the case, but the, 00:52:58.784 --> 00:53:01.065 the density and intensity 00:53:01.085 --> 00:53:03.969 at the moment speaks to a kind of. 00:53:06.123 --> 00:53:07.365 There is a broader political 00:53:07.405 --> 00:53:08.608 crisis going on in 00:53:08.648 --> 00:53:10.510 developed economies at the moment and 00:53:12.329 --> 00:53:14.451 This is a symptom, not the cause. 00:53:14.652 --> 00:53:15.952 I recognize that, 00:53:16.012 --> 00:53:18.034 but I think it is still 00:53:18.094 --> 00:53:19.715 necessary to kind of say, well, look, 00:53:19.755 --> 00:53:21.876 you know, all other things being equal, 00:53:21.956 --> 00:53:24.518 I don't think people would 00:53:24.557 --> 00:53:26.159 engage with it for those 00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:29.541 reasons with the intensity that they do. 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:31.501 Perhaps that's naive of me, 00:53:32.422 --> 00:53:33.864 but I don't think, 00:53:34.463 --> 00:53:35.164 I think there is 00:53:35.364 --> 00:53:38.447 opportunism from both sides, 00:53:39.086 --> 00:53:39.947 but I think the power 00:53:39.987 --> 00:53:41.728 dynamic is highly asymmetrical. 00:53:42.534 --> 00:53:44.393 And I don't think, 00:53:45.034 --> 00:53:47.054 I think that a lot of that 00:53:48.594 --> 00:53:49.876 kind of ends up being a 00:53:49.916 --> 00:53:51.275 wealth transfer effectively 00:53:51.775 --> 00:53:52.516 to the people at the top of 00:53:52.536 --> 00:53:53.356 these projects. 00:53:53.456 --> 00:53:58.396 It's difficult. 00:53:58.677 --> 00:54:03.018 I just don't, I think that's problematic, 00:54:03.137 --> 00:54:03.398 right? 00:54:05.798 --> 00:54:06.278 Well, I mean, 00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:07.778 if you take a deep look at 00:54:08.298 --> 00:54:09.840 any project in crypto at all, 00:54:10.539 --> 00:54:11.139 including crypto, 00:54:11.681 --> 00:54:13.041 Bitcoin, 00:54:13.121 --> 00:54:19.489 every asset is speculative at the moment. 00:54:19.648 --> 00:54:22.030 If this was traditional finance, 00:54:22.130 --> 00:54:26.275 you would say every asset is speculative. 00:54:26.295 --> 00:54:26.715 There's no... 00:54:28.085 --> 00:54:29.226 technical fundamentals 00:54:29.246 --> 00:54:30.487 behind any of them really 00:54:31.248 --> 00:54:32.829 um that are going to 00:54:33.570 --> 00:54:35.791 guarantee or even have a 00:54:35.831 --> 00:54:37.612 high chance of providing a 00:54:37.672 --> 00:54:38.652 return at the rate of 00:54:38.713 --> 00:54:43.277 investment so um but also 00:54:43.336 --> 00:54:46.798 like it is it's kind of a 00:54:46.838 --> 00:54:47.800 reflection of our 00:54:47.900 --> 00:54:49.260 traditional finance markets 00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:52.063 anyway like in um you know 00:54:52.083 --> 00:54:53.824 share trading and stuff like that it's 00:54:55.692 --> 00:54:57.673 Those markets are used as 00:54:57.713 --> 00:55:01.697 well by people who need to 00:55:01.757 --> 00:55:06.222 raise capital to build things. 00:55:07.344 --> 00:55:10.385 And they are not necessarily 00:55:10.447 --> 00:55:11.568 always going to turn a 00:55:11.628 --> 00:55:12.648 profit for the people 00:55:13.148 --> 00:55:14.210 investing in them either. 00:55:14.230 --> 00:55:14.309 Yeah. 00:55:15.271 --> 00:55:17.293 so I mean they're kind of 00:55:17.333 --> 00:55:19.056 like pretty similar in that 00:55:19.255 --> 00:55:21.278 respect it's just that the 00:55:21.318 --> 00:55:24.061 frequency of uh projects 00:55:24.081 --> 00:55:25.884 that won't make it in 00:55:25.945 --> 00:55:29.588 crypto would be much larger 00:55:29.628 --> 00:55:31.210 yeah but it's so I think 00:55:31.251 --> 00:55:32.512 it's the point of like the 00:55:35.393 --> 00:55:36.494 If you market something as a 00:55:36.534 --> 00:55:37.353 get rich scheme, 00:55:37.594 --> 00:55:38.534 you know what you're doing. 00:55:38.675 --> 00:55:39.956 And the reality is that the 00:55:39.976 --> 00:55:41.257 people who you're selling 00:55:41.297 --> 00:55:42.358 to are not going to get rich. 00:55:43.059 --> 00:55:43.778 More often than not, 00:55:43.798 --> 00:55:44.980 they're going to be exit liquidity. 00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:47.541 The thing is in crypto, 00:55:47.561 --> 00:55:48.503 people don't really market 00:55:48.543 --> 00:55:50.324 things as get rich quick schemes. 00:55:50.344 --> 00:55:51.764 They market them as this is 00:55:51.824 --> 00:55:54.047 what we're doing and here's a sale. 00:55:55.047 --> 00:55:55.568 Buy some. 00:55:57.065 --> 00:55:57.786 Like no, 00:55:57.826 --> 00:55:59.086 and I don't think I've ever seen 00:55:59.126 --> 00:56:01.148 someone say you're going to 00:56:01.190 --> 00:56:02.851 profit in this way. 00:56:03.831 --> 00:56:06.876 Um, not directly from the foundations. 00:56:06.956 --> 00:56:07.757 No, but they do. 00:56:11.661 --> 00:56:13.143 The only profiting that you 00:56:13.182 --> 00:56:15.105 can do in crypto is fucking 00:56:15.144 --> 00:56:16.144 trading and staking. 00:56:16.364 --> 00:56:20.108 For sure, yeah. 00:56:20.648 --> 00:56:21.108 This is what I mean. 00:56:21.128 --> 00:56:21.949 Through activity. 00:56:22.208 --> 00:56:24.150 The only way money gets made 00:56:24.231 --> 00:56:25.572 is through activity, right? 00:56:26.251 --> 00:56:26.932 In the industry. 00:56:28.072 --> 00:56:31.956 There's no product that's tangible. 00:56:31.976 --> 00:56:34.797 There's no... In an economy, 00:56:34.858 --> 00:56:36.619 you have inputs and you have outputs. 00:56:37.059 --> 00:56:38.460 All the outputs in... 00:56:39.240 --> 00:56:41.362 crypto uh like intangibles 00:56:41.623 --> 00:56:44.784 they're just coins um but 00:56:44.824 --> 00:56:45.985 this is my point right it 00:56:46.405 --> 00:56:47.365 it doesn't have to be that 00:56:47.427 --> 00:56:50.148 way because you can 00:56:50.307 --> 00:56:51.789 implement any kind of 00:56:51.829 --> 00:56:53.230 payment system any kind of 00:56:53.269 --> 00:56:55.152 payment rails public or 00:56:55.192 --> 00:56:57.893 private smart contracts or 00:56:57.934 --> 00:57:00.215 not with the technology 00:57:01.815 --> 00:57:03.717 pile like the pile of stuff 00:57:03.737 --> 00:57:05.478 that we've got here all the legos now 00:57:06.297 --> 00:57:07.657 We have enough of them, right? 00:57:07.817 --> 00:57:08.597 We have enough of them. 00:57:08.998 --> 00:57:09.958 Any of this stuff that's way 00:57:09.978 --> 00:57:10.697 more ambitious than 00:57:10.757 --> 00:57:12.259 anything they're doing in TradFi, 00:57:12.978 --> 00:57:14.559 we can look at that pile of Lego and go, 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:15.280 okay, cool. 00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:16.699 We can throw this together 00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:17.940 in a way that makes sense, right? 00:57:18.940 --> 00:57:19.121 Now, 00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:21.942 are you going to get... I should 00:57:21.961 --> 00:57:22.961 clarify a couple of things 00:57:22.981 --> 00:57:24.742 before you continue. 00:57:24.782 --> 00:57:26.382 That sounded quite pessimistic. 00:57:27.003 --> 00:57:29.384 However, like you say, 00:57:29.764 --> 00:57:31.144 people are investing and 00:57:31.244 --> 00:57:32.925 things do get built and 00:57:33.005 --> 00:57:34.585 technology is being created. 00:57:34.666 --> 00:57:34.865 So... 00:57:35.682 --> 00:57:36.903 there are there are things 00:57:36.963 --> 00:57:38.344 coming out of it and like 00:57:38.385 --> 00:57:40.286 you say there is a big pile 00:57:40.327 --> 00:57:41.568 of different technologies 00:57:41.748 --> 00:57:42.829 all over the place now in 00:57:42.869 --> 00:57:45.411 crypto that can be deployed 00:57:45.451 --> 00:57:46.632 to actually do something 00:57:48.032 --> 00:57:51.635 irl if people you know if 00:57:51.795 --> 00:57:54.378 if if the regulators and 00:57:54.418 --> 00:57:55.460 stuff could catch up to 00:57:55.500 --> 00:57:56.920 that and be able to 00:57:58.322 --> 00:57:59.864 allow implementation of that 00:58:00.043 --> 00:58:01.123 well but this is the thing 00:58:01.483 --> 00:58:03.445 the regulators allow it 00:58:03.565 --> 00:58:04.625 right now in a lot of 00:58:04.644 --> 00:58:05.465 jurisdictions and most 00:58:05.485 --> 00:58:06.266 jurisdictions if you want 00:58:06.286 --> 00:58:08.206 to do something you can do 00:58:08.286 --> 00:58:09.967 it the point is that 00:58:10.746 --> 00:58:12.568 nobody's buying right the 00:58:12.608 --> 00:58:15.849 point is that real serious 00:58:15.869 --> 00:58:17.989 but it can't have the like 00:58:18.070 --> 00:58:19.289 it needs to be a back-end 00:58:19.329 --> 00:58:22.251 thing it can't have the uh the 00:58:23.516 --> 00:58:24.677 You can't take a crypto 00:58:24.737 --> 00:58:26.056 project and put it into 00:58:26.217 --> 00:58:29.739 production in common society. 00:58:30.619 --> 00:58:31.920 You can take the technology 00:58:31.940 --> 00:58:34.061 that's created in crypto 00:58:34.081 --> 00:58:36.563 and use it in a back-end capacity. 00:58:36.583 --> 00:58:37.842 I'm saying exactly that. 00:58:37.862 --> 00:58:38.364 We're agreeing. 00:58:39.123 --> 00:58:40.724 But I'm saying that the 00:58:40.764 --> 00:58:43.365 difficulty is that now you 00:58:43.425 --> 00:58:46.648 are in a tender process for a major bank, 00:58:46.987 --> 00:58:50.869 a regulated entity with low ambition and 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:54.780 low appetite for risk and 00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:56.882 high distrust of any vendor 00:58:57.422 --> 00:58:58.461 that doesn't have. 00:58:59.583 --> 00:59:02.264 Five thousand engineers on staff and, uh, 00:59:03.523 --> 00:59:03.885 you know, 00:59:04.184 --> 00:59:07.405 all of the ISOs that you need 00:59:07.445 --> 00:59:09.186 and all the trappings and whatnot. 00:59:09.827 --> 00:59:13.668 And, and that's the kind of, you know, 00:59:14.168 --> 00:59:15.929 we could wait forever to 00:59:15.989 --> 00:59:16.969 get from the stage right 00:59:17.010 --> 00:59:18.050 now where we're a toddler 00:59:18.070 --> 00:59:19.650 shitting our pants to 00:59:22.088 --> 00:59:22.829 Something real, 00:59:23.329 --> 00:59:24.771 because the problem is the 00:59:24.811 --> 00:59:25.911 gap between where we are 00:59:25.972 --> 00:59:28.213 now and something real is 00:59:28.353 --> 00:59:30.014 going to almost certainly 00:59:30.076 --> 00:59:31.657 have to involve some kind 00:59:31.677 --> 00:59:32.518 of private money. 00:59:32.597 --> 00:59:33.338 And by private money, 00:59:33.398 --> 00:59:37.521 I mean like non central bank money, 00:59:37.742 --> 00:59:37.983 you know? 01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:12.780 Thank you.