WEBVTT

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uh they have five of us or

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something like that and

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they're looking for a

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couple more so they'll

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figure it out what network tbd

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Hello and welcome to Game of Nodes,

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a weekly podcast despite

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all the odds from

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independent validator teams.

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What the fuck is up?

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We are demonetized in minute one.

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Let's go, baby.

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We're back.

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What's happening, fellas?

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Fucking babies everywhere.

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There's just a lot of interested babies.

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You know,

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we used to joke that the real

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interchange was the friends

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we made along the way.

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Maybe it was more the... Fucking?

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You know what?

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This is the thing.

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You think you're out of the woods.

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You're like, I am on top of things.

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I'm killing it.

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And then sometimes you just

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find yourself standing in

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the middle of the road being like,

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where was I going?

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Cool.

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Cool.

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Yeah.

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Eighteen months in.

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Yeah.

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That sounds like ready for

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number two is what that sounds like.

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Do it all again.

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Let's just let's get it over with.

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You know,

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I got through it without too many

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gray hairs and without my

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teeth completely kicked in.

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Let's let's go.

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Let's do it.

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Yeah.

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Do it.

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Do it.

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Tomorrow's never.

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Yeah.

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I guess it's all it's all bear market,

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right?

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You get nothing else to do.

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You know,

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you're not responding to pager duty.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, fucking... I mean, to be fair,

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we're strangling... We're

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shooting the dog, aren't we?

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We've announced that we're

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going to come off Stargaze and Juno.

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So that's our last two Cosmos networks,

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finally.

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So, yeah,

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there's time in the schedule

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between PhD and

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masturbation to knock out another child.

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You might as well, yeah.

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Yeah, that's...

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No, I mean, there is other stuff going on.

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Obviously there is,

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there is business to run.

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We have other stuff we're doing,

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but it is still quiet in it

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in terms of like what the interchange.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The interchange is pretty quiet.

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It's really quiet.

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It,

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I don't know.

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I think there's some sort of

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weird evolution that's

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happened because there's a

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lot of Cosmos SDK networks

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that are popping up right

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now and being busy,

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but they don't consider

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themselves as part of the inner chain.

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They're just like, yeah, we use Cosmos SDK,

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but we don't really want to

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be associated with these

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weirdos over here.

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But they don't use IBC either.

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Some do.

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Some do.

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Actually, recently,

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it's all tendermint as just the CL,

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right?

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Just in the consensus side.

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And using totally different

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execution engines, which were involved in,

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I think,

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how many of those use different

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execution?

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At least two,

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maybe three or four that are

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in that position, which is really weird.

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It's not weird, actually.

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It's fine.

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But, I mean,

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Polygon did it a long time ago.

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But still, it's still fascinating to...

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how it's getting

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deconstructed a little bit, you know?

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Well,

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maybe they're just polygon forks

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because I think my

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impression is a lot of

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these people are coming

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over from Ethereum.

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So they've, they, they,

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they can at the very least look at the,

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the original polygon source code and go,

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okay, that's how you do it.

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That's a good question.

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I don't know because every

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time I brought that comment

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up with those teams, they go, really?

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Like,

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They totally thought they invented it,

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which maybe they did,

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but I think it's much later SDKs.

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I don't think Heimdall's

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been... I don't even know

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what version of the SDK Heimdall's on,

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but... Old.

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It's freaking old, right?

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Like, old old.

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Does it even use the SDK?

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I said SDK.

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It's probably not SDK, right?

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I shouldn't have said that.

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I can look forward looking, but anyway...

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But I think all the later ones,

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like the one I was just mentioning before,

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I think is probably on

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thirty seven or maybe even fifty.

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I don't even know.

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Either thirty seven or fifty.

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I don't know.

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I just don't know what version.

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Well,

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I think they did skip from thirty

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seven to fifty,

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which is I don't know context.

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I want to know the context for why,

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but I don't.

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I mean, as soon as I said it, I was like,

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that does actually ring a bell,

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but here we are.

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It sounds like you make more

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progress that way.

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I mean, hey,

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if the candles aren't going green,

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I've got a plan, lads.

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We just skip the team versions.

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Some say unlucky thirteen,

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but not if you're skipping

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forward thirteen.

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How do I even figure this out?

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A little go mod tidy shit.

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That's all you need to do.

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Oh, no.

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So Heimdall uses Cosmos-SDK-V-V.

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Oh, wow.

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There you go.

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That's in Heimdall.

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So they're staying with it.

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They're on top of it.

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I mean, it's stripped down, right?

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Hipped with it.

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So that is the SDK, or wouldn't it be...

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Well, it's just a consensus side,

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not the application side, right?

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Is that the SDK?

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I thought the SDK was in the app side.

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Well, the SDK is the state machine.

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Oh, it is a state machine.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So if it's using the SDK,

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it's using at least part of

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the execution layer.

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Yeah.

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I wonder I wonder what for

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because I mean it talks to

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a separate it talks to it

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talks to boar which is uh I

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mean they could just be for

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part of an api or oh wait

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no wait that was the top of

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go these fucking go mod

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files the bottom that says

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replace cosmos sdk with

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github matic network cosmos

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sdk v thirty eight dot four

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that's not that old I guess

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Yeah, well,

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but the thing is it could be a

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fork that then has

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absolutely everything stripped out.

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But because of how simple, I mean,

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it depends like what

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version of Tendermint you're on,

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but some versions of Tendermint,

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previous versions of Tendermint,

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my understanding is I'm not

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a Tendermint expert.

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I just know,

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I know more about the abstract

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design of the actual

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protocol than I know about

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the actual specifics of the code.

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But my understanding is

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that the implementation is

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relatively unopinionated

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and low level to the point

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that you might actually

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need to include some of the

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scaffolding of the SDK to

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use just Tendermint as a

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consensus layer in the way

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that the ETH boomers would talk about.

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a consensus client because

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they talk about it being

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two decoupled things that

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can then talk to each other.

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But I believe anyway,

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at least in the way they're

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separated in the Tendermint case,

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part of that functionality

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would sit in the bit we

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call the SDK rather than

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just the consensus layer.

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Because the consensus buyer

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is just interested in the

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ordering of hashes, basically.

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Got it.

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Okay.

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I need to double check and look into that.

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But there are, to be fair,

00:07:33.545 --> 00:07:34.225
for the interested,

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and maybe I should try and

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dig these up for the show notes,

00:07:36.666 --> 00:07:37.507
there are some quite

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interesting conversations

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that you can find on,

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I think it's Ethereum Stack Exchange,

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as well as a couple of blog posts on,

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because everybody knows the Ethereum,

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well,

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I think it's relatively well

00:07:52.704 --> 00:07:53.485
understood that the

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Ethereum proof of stake

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implementation was inspired

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by and in some ways

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informed by the design of

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Tendermint and the Cosmos SDK,

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but they explicitly didn't

00:08:05.329 --> 00:08:06.690
go the Tendermint route.

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And there is quite a bit of

00:08:09.711 --> 00:08:11.432
stuff written about that

00:08:11.451 --> 00:08:12.413
and that decision path.

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Honestly,

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it's obviously gone in one ear

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and out the other for me

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because it hasn't been retained in my,

00:08:18.891 --> 00:08:20.132
this is potentially useful

00:08:20.173 --> 00:08:21.353
future information pile.

00:08:21.454 --> 00:08:23.136
But I remember reading it at

00:08:23.156 --> 00:08:23.755
the time and thinking, oh,

00:08:23.776 --> 00:08:24.456
that's interesting.

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Anyway.

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I thought the timeline was

00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:27.939
totally different on those two,

00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:28.781
but maybe not.

00:08:28.841 --> 00:08:29.382
I guess they're both.

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I think aspirationally though.

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Yeah.

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I think, I think they,

00:08:32.970 --> 00:08:34.811
they very much went in, in parallel,

00:08:35.091 --> 00:08:36.431
but there was,

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there was some awareness and I,

00:08:38.572 --> 00:08:40.111
I'm pretty sure Bucky has

00:08:40.152 --> 00:08:41.312
talked about having

00:08:41.993 --> 00:08:43.352
conversations with the,

00:08:43.373 --> 00:08:45.033
like Ethereum core devs

00:08:45.053 --> 00:08:46.474
about various things.

00:08:46.614 --> 00:08:47.215
I think there are,

00:08:47.254 --> 00:08:48.134
there are some connections

00:08:48.154 --> 00:08:48.674
there in terms of people

00:08:48.715 --> 00:08:49.816
having conversations and whatnot.

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And obviously the design was well known,

00:08:52.015 --> 00:08:53.256
you know, there's only so many,

00:08:55.817 --> 00:08:56.998
there's only so many PBFT projects.

00:08:57.945 --> 00:08:58.426
Um, sure.

00:08:58.785 --> 00:08:59.005
Yeah.

00:08:59.046 --> 00:08:59.807
Things floating around.

00:09:00.147 --> 00:09:02.549
And, um, but it is turning into a,

00:09:03.029 --> 00:09:04.211
it is going back to the original point.

00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:06.514
Like it's turning into a pretty, um,

00:09:06.533 --> 00:09:08.696
we've seen a lot more of it, you know,

00:09:08.716 --> 00:09:09.897
and even like Barra that.

00:09:10.902 --> 00:09:12.302
They kind of wrote their own

00:09:13.123 --> 00:09:14.004
consensus engine.

00:09:14.063 --> 00:09:14.683
It's tenement-based,

00:09:14.703 --> 00:09:15.764
but like their own one.

00:09:15.804 --> 00:09:18.046
And then they allow any execution engine,

00:09:18.147 --> 00:09:19.486
any Ethereum-based execution engine.

00:09:19.506 --> 00:09:20.447
But those times are,

00:09:20.548 --> 00:09:21.548
I forget what the block times are,

00:09:22.068 --> 00:09:23.210
one second or something like that,

00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:23.690
second and a half.

00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:24.870
That sounds about right.

00:09:24.951 --> 00:09:25.191
Yeah.

00:09:25.951 --> 00:09:27.032
And some of these other ones,

00:09:27.172 --> 00:09:28.013
they're all above a second

00:09:28.033 --> 00:09:29.774
in terms of execution, but it's still,

00:09:29.793 --> 00:09:30.614
and Bear is interesting

00:09:30.634 --> 00:09:32.716
because the consensus engine

00:09:33.754 --> 00:09:34.735
block height and the

00:09:34.875 --> 00:09:35.576
execution engine are

00:09:35.655 --> 00:09:37.636
totally separate like

00:09:37.677 --> 00:09:39.238
you're not like tied and

00:09:39.317 --> 00:09:41.259
it's like crazy it's

00:09:41.278 --> 00:09:42.159
confusing I find it

00:09:42.179 --> 00:09:43.341
confusing I still haven't

00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.841
like fully does that work

00:09:46.062 --> 00:09:46.962
when does that get settled

00:09:47.003 --> 00:09:47.623
like how does that work

00:09:47.643 --> 00:09:49.703
exactly so it's it's cool

00:09:49.744 --> 00:09:51.905
though so anyway yeah I

00:09:51.926 --> 00:09:52.485
don't know how do we get to

00:09:52.505 --> 00:09:53.086
talk about this fucking

00:09:53.125 --> 00:09:55.648
subject but yeah time to admit

00:09:59.392 --> 00:10:00.152
It does look like Heimdall's

00:10:00.211 --> 00:10:01.432
using Tenement v. thirty

00:10:01.471 --> 00:10:02.432
four twenty four.

00:10:02.572 --> 00:10:03.533
That sounds old as fuck.

00:10:05.712 --> 00:10:06.533
And that looks like that was

00:10:06.592 --> 00:10:07.813
back in twenty twenty two.

00:10:07.894 --> 00:10:08.634
So, yeah,

00:10:08.714 --> 00:10:10.974
that that sounds more which I'm

00:10:11.014 --> 00:10:11.974
surprised that that

00:10:12.014 --> 00:10:12.875
tenement version actually

00:10:12.914 --> 00:10:16.514
works with with with the

00:10:16.615 --> 00:10:17.715
SDK version fifty.

00:10:17.735 --> 00:10:18.014
I don't know.

00:10:18.034 --> 00:10:19.135
I don't know even what

00:10:19.155 --> 00:10:20.456
they're using that for, but there you go.

00:10:21.436 --> 00:10:22.235
That doesn't sound like a

00:10:22.275 --> 00:10:25.756
long term service type version.

00:10:25.797 --> 00:10:26.256
Yeah, I don't know.

00:10:27.335 --> 00:10:27.715
I'm not sure.

00:10:28.096 --> 00:10:29.136
It might be, I don't even know if they're,

00:10:29.216 --> 00:10:29.336
I mean,

00:10:29.356 --> 00:10:30.538
they're not really using SDK there,

00:10:30.557 --> 00:10:31.359
so I'm not sure exactly

00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.561
what's happening with that, but, but,

00:10:34.902 --> 00:10:37.043
but anyway, and then also they're using,

00:10:37.144 --> 00:10:37.384
yeah.

00:10:37.423 --> 00:10:38.565
And then plus the boron for

00:10:38.585 --> 00:10:39.466
the Ethereum side.

00:10:40.307 --> 00:10:41.128
So yeah.

00:10:41.168 --> 00:10:42.349
So test nuts, I agree with you.

00:10:42.369 --> 00:10:43.669
Like test nuts are kicking up a little bit,

00:10:44.009 --> 00:10:46.032
like, like a lot more the next wave,

00:10:46.091 --> 00:10:46.493
I guess.

00:10:47.474 --> 00:10:49.576
That's starting to get to a

00:10:49.615 --> 00:10:50.596
point of actually testing

00:10:50.635 --> 00:10:51.496
something or trying to work

00:10:51.537 --> 00:10:52.057
something forward.

00:10:52.097 --> 00:10:52.238
Right.

00:10:57.782 --> 00:10:58.942
I think it's interesting how

00:10:59.062 --> 00:11:02.505
many networks are, I mean,

00:11:02.525 --> 00:11:03.366
this is maybe interesting.

00:11:03.407 --> 00:11:05.168
It isn't the way I isn't correct,

00:11:05.208 --> 00:11:06.330
but so many networks are

00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:07.671
trying to like fight on speed right now.

00:11:07.711 --> 00:11:08.010
Again,

00:11:08.792 --> 00:11:10.933
there was that happened a couple of

00:11:10.953 --> 00:11:11.934
years back where they're like, all right,

00:11:11.955 --> 00:11:12.936
we're just going to speed everything up.

00:11:12.956 --> 00:11:14.197
We're all going to change this one setting,

00:11:14.758 --> 00:11:16.219
make it one second, whatever.

00:11:16.899 --> 00:11:17.480
And then it kind of died

00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:19.402
down and everyone back to six seconds.

00:11:19.422 --> 00:11:20.283
Cause they're like, ah, one second.

00:11:20.302 --> 00:11:21.183
Didn't really improve anything.

00:11:21.823 --> 00:11:22.605
No runners aren't happy.

00:11:23.105 --> 00:11:23.566
And now it's trying to

00:11:23.586 --> 00:11:24.927
happen again where they're like, okay,

00:11:25.248 --> 00:11:25.388
let's,

00:11:25.467 --> 00:11:26.828
let's start this pissing contest of,

00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:29.490
of speed back up again.

00:11:29.510 --> 00:11:29.630
Right.

00:11:30.312 --> 00:11:31.592
It's all, it's all a bit redundant,

00:11:31.613 --> 00:11:31.852
isn't it?

00:11:31.873 --> 00:11:32.474
Cause it's like, yeah,

00:11:32.494 --> 00:11:33.615
we can get these blocks really,

00:11:33.634 --> 00:11:34.956
really quick only to get

00:11:35.015 --> 00:11:36.576
completely roasted by like

00:11:36.596 --> 00:11:39.740
the fourth gen chains.

00:11:39.820 --> 00:11:43.163
Like let's start pissing

00:11:43.202 --> 00:11:44.183
contest without toast and

00:11:44.224 --> 00:11:45.124
sweet and Solana,

00:11:45.183 --> 00:11:46.245
which we're going to lose.

00:11:47.145 --> 00:11:47.746
Awesome.

00:11:47.767 --> 00:11:48.067
Good one.

00:11:48.086 --> 00:11:49.307
Yeah.

00:11:50.418 --> 00:11:53.178
I mean,

00:11:53.198 --> 00:11:54.139
I haven't seen too much in terms of

00:11:54.178 --> 00:11:55.658
speed lately,

00:11:55.698 --> 00:11:57.559
or at least in terms of the

00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:59.900
ones that were, that we're working with.

00:11:59.961 --> 00:12:01.980
It's been, I don't know.

00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.682
It seems like it's a similar

00:12:04.721 --> 00:12:06.182
round of use cases though.

00:12:06.201 --> 00:12:06.763
I would say that.

00:12:07.962 --> 00:12:09.302
What's the, what's the use cases?

00:12:10.023 --> 00:12:15.745
Some depend, some bridging type of, uh,

00:12:16.884 --> 00:12:19.145
abstraction, you know?

00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:21.542
Deepin is really hot right now.

00:12:22.562 --> 00:12:23.524
Yeah.

00:12:23.585 --> 00:12:25.547
It's like Zoolander hot right now.

00:12:27.009 --> 00:12:31.174
I've been to a crypto conference.

00:12:31.835 --> 00:12:33.297
I'm going to another one in

00:12:33.317 --> 00:12:33.998
a couple of weeks.

00:12:34.057 --> 00:12:35.200
And I've also been to an

00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:36.000
academic conference.

00:12:36.618 --> 00:12:38.440
thing about decentralized

00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.360
systems and deep in has

00:12:40.400 --> 00:12:41.601
come up at every single one

00:12:42.202 --> 00:12:44.565
and the level of froth has

00:12:44.585 --> 00:12:46.886
been similar would be my

00:12:46.927 --> 00:12:48.708
review it's funny um and

00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:50.890
it's like ah this is

00:12:50.931 --> 00:12:51.490
interesting this is

00:12:51.510 --> 00:12:52.591
obviously what everybody is

00:12:52.652 --> 00:12:54.833
excited about right now on

00:12:54.874 --> 00:12:55.835
both sides of the fence

00:12:55.855 --> 00:12:56.995
would be my review of deep

00:12:57.096 --> 00:12:59.077
in so what what aspect of

00:12:59.118 --> 00:13:00.860
deep end though like oracles or

00:13:02.371 --> 00:13:03.692
And what does Deepin stand for,

00:13:04.393 --> 00:13:06.972
for those who have no idea?

00:13:07.212 --> 00:13:08.673
Decentralized physical infrastructure,

00:13:09.193 --> 00:13:09.374
baby.

00:13:09.413 --> 00:13:09.634
Yeah.

00:13:12.815 --> 00:13:13.215
Yeah.

00:13:13.955 --> 00:13:14.914
Yeah.

00:13:15.375 --> 00:13:17.875
Well, obviously, on one side of things,

00:13:17.916 --> 00:13:19.475
people are super excited

00:13:19.495 --> 00:13:21.096
about Deepin because the

00:13:21.116 --> 00:13:22.697
degens think it's going to make them rich,

00:13:22.716 --> 00:13:23.417
which is the same reason

00:13:23.937 --> 00:13:24.817
people are excited about

00:13:24.898 --> 00:13:26.278
literally every single thing.

00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.903
And the implementers and VCs are like,

00:13:32.144 --> 00:13:32.644
awesome,

00:13:32.745 --> 00:13:33.966
this is potentially an

00:13:34.006 --> 00:13:35.347
opportunity to disrupt

00:13:35.648 --> 00:13:37.129
highly profitable existing

00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:40.793
incumbents if they actually

00:13:40.953 --> 00:13:42.456
get service provision right,

00:13:42.535 --> 00:13:43.897
which is not a given.

00:13:45.578 --> 00:13:45.879
And

00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:50.841
academics are interested in

00:13:50.900 --> 00:13:52.562
it because they've been

00:13:52.601 --> 00:13:54.403
writing about this stuff in

00:13:54.423 --> 00:13:55.543
the abstract for like

00:13:55.583 --> 00:13:56.684
thirty years and I guess

00:13:56.725 --> 00:13:58.025
it's finally maybe going to

00:13:58.066 --> 00:13:59.086
happen but probably not in

00:13:59.106 --> 00:13:59.706
the way that they would

00:13:59.726 --> 00:14:02.308
want so that would be my

00:14:02.349 --> 00:14:03.649
completely reductive and

00:14:03.690 --> 00:14:05.490
not very accurate review of

00:14:05.551 --> 00:14:06.711
the current state of d-pin

00:14:06.971 --> 00:14:08.173
although I got literally

00:14:08.232 --> 00:14:09.374
pitched a d-pin project

00:14:09.413 --> 00:14:14.096
today so like it's so hot right now um

00:14:15.384 --> 00:14:19.806
that's yeah cool yeah pretty

00:14:19.826 --> 00:14:22.347
cool um it's not new though

00:14:22.488 --> 00:14:24.369
but okay we did get um yeah

00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:25.548
it's not it's not new so

00:14:25.568 --> 00:14:26.870
it's the helium validator

00:14:27.049 --> 00:14:28.971
who's not too salty about

00:14:29.051 --> 00:14:30.211
helium being there first

00:14:31.251 --> 00:14:32.613
and and not being not being

00:14:32.653 --> 00:14:33.573
on a beach right now

00:14:34.014 --> 00:14:36.815
earning twenty percent um

00:14:36.855 --> 00:14:37.615
yeah we've made any money

00:14:37.655 --> 00:14:38.515
in helium in a long time so

00:14:38.596 --> 00:14:39.777
it's all good yeah

00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.802
so um we also I also had an

00:14:43.842 --> 00:14:45.484
interesting conversation uh

00:14:45.823 --> 00:14:46.865
not related to deepin but

00:14:46.904 --> 00:14:48.485
related to our favorite

00:14:48.745 --> 00:14:49.947
topic which is like

00:14:50.427 --> 00:14:53.190
tombstones um I've had a

00:14:53.250 --> 00:14:54.671
conversation with um

00:14:56.340 --> 00:14:57.541
the some of the devs uh

00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:00.182
aptos about how the

00:15:00.283 --> 00:15:01.623
upgrades actually work

00:15:01.743 --> 00:15:02.903
under the hood and what's

00:15:02.923 --> 00:15:05.326
going on um because if you

00:15:05.346 --> 00:15:05.985
I don't know if you've read

00:15:06.025 --> 00:15:07.687
the the move docs for the

00:15:07.706 --> 00:15:10.009
moved vm how upgrades are

00:15:10.028 --> 00:15:10.729
backwards and forwards

00:15:10.749 --> 00:15:13.510
compatible or immutable um

00:15:13.591 --> 00:15:14.571
and I kind of was just like

00:15:14.691 --> 00:15:16.371
yeah I mean I know

00:15:16.413 --> 00:15:17.773
conceptually like the

00:15:17.893 --> 00:15:20.054
blockchain is move the the

00:15:20.075 --> 00:15:21.775
two are kind of not separable

00:15:23.325 --> 00:15:25.144
But like, obviously it's also a framework,

00:15:25.184 --> 00:15:26.546
like it's like cosmolism or whatever,

00:15:26.586 --> 00:15:28.005
like there's stuff going on inside,

00:15:28.025 --> 00:15:28.966
there's stuff going on outside.

00:15:28.985 --> 00:15:30.686
And I was like, what,

00:15:30.745 --> 00:15:32.086
what is actually happening here?

00:15:32.106 --> 00:15:32.746
And the answer,

00:15:32.826 --> 00:15:33.667
the answer is it turns out

00:15:33.706 --> 00:15:36.086
is that there aren't any hard forks.

00:15:36.106 --> 00:15:37.827
It's always a soft, a compatible,

00:15:38.128 --> 00:15:39.168
a compatible soft fork.

00:15:39.187 --> 00:15:39.368
Right.

00:15:39.888 --> 00:15:42.869
Um, so that's why, um,

00:15:42.889 --> 00:15:44.109
so a combination of that, I think,

00:15:44.229 --> 00:15:44.969
and the state model,

00:15:44.989 --> 00:15:48.509
which is a dag is why, uh, there's no,

00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:48.990
um,

00:15:50.241 --> 00:15:51.062
risk of tombstone.

00:15:51.102 --> 00:15:53.465
And that's why there isn't a

00:15:53.544 --> 00:15:55.166
need for a slashing mechanic.

00:15:55.365 --> 00:15:56.427
So what there isn't a need

00:15:56.447 --> 00:15:57.908
for slashing mechanic for a few reasons,

00:15:58.489 --> 00:15:59.750
one of which is that, you know,

00:15:59.789 --> 00:16:00.770
in its current state is a

00:16:00.811 --> 00:16:02.091
consortium blockchain

00:16:02.172 --> 00:16:04.192
rather than a decentralized project.

00:16:04.553 --> 00:16:05.394
So at some point you could

00:16:05.433 --> 00:16:07.176
introduce the slashing mechanic to it.

00:16:07.196 --> 00:16:09.697
I need to interrupt.

00:16:09.738 --> 00:16:10.357
Sorry for interrupting.

00:16:10.378 --> 00:16:12.139
I have to take off now.

00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:13.801
So good time with you guys.

00:16:14.581 --> 00:16:15.361
I'm out of here.

00:16:15.422 --> 00:16:15.702
Bye.

00:16:15.743 --> 00:16:18.865
Later.

00:16:18.904 --> 00:16:19.426
Dad life.

00:16:21.889 --> 00:16:23.571
Oh, look at that.

00:16:23.671 --> 00:16:24.250
Replaced.

00:16:26.994 --> 00:16:28.075
Schultz, he looks more drunk.

00:16:28.535 --> 00:16:29.115
What's happening?

00:16:31.357 --> 00:16:32.620
It's five thirty for me,

00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.081
so I'm just getting warmed up.

00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:37.644
How are you guys doing?

00:16:37.663 --> 00:16:39.245
Five thirty at night or in the morning?

00:16:42.669 --> 00:16:45.731
Either way, getting warmed up.

00:16:45.772 --> 00:16:46.692
Yeah, it's great.

00:16:46.731 --> 00:16:47.253
Let's go.

00:16:47.293 --> 00:16:47.653
Wow,

00:16:47.673 --> 00:16:50.235
it's been so long since I've been on

00:16:50.254 --> 00:16:50.794
this show.

00:16:50.894 --> 00:16:51.534
Holy shit.

00:16:51.816 --> 00:16:52.355
I know, right?

00:16:54.376 --> 00:16:54.738
What's going on?

00:16:54.778 --> 00:16:55.357
Where are you?

00:16:56.298 --> 00:16:58.419
Other than what looks like a base.

00:16:58.480 --> 00:16:59.900
Tap the mic twice if you're

00:16:59.921 --> 00:17:01.701
being held against your will.

00:17:01.721 --> 00:17:02.123
Yeah,

00:17:02.322 --> 00:17:03.823
I'm definitely being held against my will,

00:17:03.864 --> 00:17:07.766
but I must sit in my bunker

00:17:07.826 --> 00:17:09.587
and just work on stuff until...

00:17:10.992 --> 00:17:11.974
new things have been achieved.

00:17:12.415 --> 00:17:13.738
Until the VCs let you out.

00:17:14.479 --> 00:17:15.922
Until the VCs let me out, yeah, totally.

00:17:16.762 --> 00:17:16.923
Yeah.

00:17:17.064 --> 00:17:18.826
That's great.

00:17:18.886 --> 00:17:21.351
Sounds great.

00:17:21.751 --> 00:17:22.673
So what's happening?

00:17:22.692 --> 00:17:23.034
What's new?

00:17:27.378 --> 00:17:36.063
I don't really care about

00:17:36.182 --> 00:17:36.923
any of the current

00:17:36.962 --> 00:17:38.703
buzzwords or current meta.

00:17:39.703 --> 00:17:40.825
This space has gotten way

00:17:40.845 --> 00:17:43.726
too boring and too many

00:17:43.746 --> 00:17:44.486
people are just doing the

00:17:44.526 --> 00:17:47.247
same fucking shit over and over again.

00:17:48.448 --> 00:17:50.548
It's depressing.

00:17:51.521 --> 00:17:52.942
So which flavor of the same

00:17:52.962 --> 00:17:53.963
old shit over and over

00:17:53.983 --> 00:17:55.605
again have you decided to

00:17:56.105 --> 00:17:57.205
hitch your horse to then?

00:17:57.645 --> 00:17:58.626
Which one are we going for?

00:17:59.747 --> 00:18:00.647
Well, I don't know.

00:18:00.688 --> 00:18:01.729
Just to troll some people,

00:18:01.828 --> 00:18:03.789
I started this thing that's called Layer,

00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:04.671
and it's just called Layer

00:18:06.271 --> 00:18:06.892
to troll people.

00:18:09.032 --> 00:18:09.993
So who are you trolling?

00:18:11.634 --> 00:18:12.895
All those startups that are called Layer.

00:18:13.816 --> 00:18:14.696
Oh, there are lots of startups.

00:18:14.717 --> 00:18:16.498
Layer something, yeah.

00:18:16.597 --> 00:18:18.138
There's lots of Layer this, Layer that,

00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:19.319
you know.

00:18:21.060 --> 00:18:22.741
So this kind of sounds a

00:18:22.781 --> 00:18:24.083
little bit like meta, like.

00:18:24.103 --> 00:18:29.286
You guys are asking way too

00:18:29.306 --> 00:18:29.885
many questions.

00:18:30.346 --> 00:18:30.846
Well, I'm just saying,

00:18:30.967 --> 00:18:31.968
if you come in and you're just like,

00:18:32.008 --> 00:18:32.988
I don't care about,

00:18:33.008 --> 00:18:34.028
I don't care about the matter.

00:18:34.209 --> 00:18:35.789
And then you're like,

00:18:35.869 --> 00:18:36.911
everybody's called layer.

00:18:36.931 --> 00:18:38.692
And I'm like, well, is that, that sounds,

00:18:38.711 --> 00:18:39.291
well, there's like,

00:18:39.652 --> 00:18:40.752
there's like another part

00:18:40.772 --> 00:18:42.394
of the project that's not announced yet.

00:18:42.413 --> 00:18:45.675
We just like launched like, uh, or we just,

00:18:45.715 --> 00:18:47.436
uh, announced, uh,

00:18:49.355 --> 00:18:50.635
our kind of like boring

00:18:50.655 --> 00:18:51.957
stuff is like we make this

00:18:52.196 --> 00:18:53.657
thing called the layer SDK

00:18:53.678 --> 00:18:54.759
and it lets you make layers.

00:18:55.138 --> 00:18:57.320
Great.

00:18:57.361 --> 00:18:58.221
But the really cool thing

00:18:58.261 --> 00:18:59.903
that we're adding is we are

00:18:59.962 --> 00:19:00.824
introducing the Wasm

00:19:00.864 --> 00:19:03.285
Wonderland because the

00:19:03.305 --> 00:19:05.007
great thing about Wasm is

00:19:05.047 --> 00:19:06.488
that it can run anywhere.

00:19:06.728 --> 00:19:08.169
Like it can even run on your phones.

00:19:08.308 --> 00:19:08.890
And if you want to make,

00:19:09.089 --> 00:19:10.530
like our big motto is just

00:19:10.671 --> 00:19:12.612
fucking full stack decentralized apps.

00:19:13.313 --> 00:19:15.835
Like, like let's actually like,

00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:18.060
make it so you can run

00:19:18.181 --> 00:19:19.981
messaging layers and write

00:19:20.803 --> 00:19:22.743
AI agents and oracles and

00:19:22.784 --> 00:19:24.005
zk-provers and all this

00:19:24.065 --> 00:19:25.465
other off-chain stuff

00:19:25.486 --> 00:19:29.128
that's verifiable on-chain.

00:19:29.148 --> 00:19:30.470
Not to mention UIs and shit.

00:19:30.690 --> 00:19:35.413
Cool.

00:19:38.715 --> 00:19:39.056
I don't know.

00:19:39.076 --> 00:19:39.175
Cool.

00:19:39.195 --> 00:19:43.278
Is that in Cosmos?

00:19:43.338 --> 00:19:43.759
About that...

00:19:44.684 --> 00:19:45.566
Um,

00:19:45.586 --> 00:19:46.788
so I'm actually working on it with

00:19:46.867 --> 00:19:47.248
Ethan Fry.

00:19:47.268 --> 00:19:47.348
Um,

00:19:49.391 --> 00:19:52.615
so he's actually not been on sabbatical

00:19:52.674 --> 00:19:54.376
this whole time and he's

00:19:54.656 --> 00:19:55.618
actually been behind you.

00:19:55.638 --> 00:19:58.642
What is he in the bunker too?

00:19:58.741 --> 00:19:59.923
Like, are they letting him out?

00:20:00.003 --> 00:20:01.605
Is he also being held against his will?

00:20:02.816 --> 00:20:03.195
No, we're,

00:20:03.256 --> 00:20:04.436
we're all like actually super

00:20:04.477 --> 00:20:05.298
happy over here in the

00:20:05.317 --> 00:20:06.178
Ethereum ecosystem.

00:20:06.198 --> 00:20:06.637
It's great.

00:20:07.898 --> 00:20:09.140
It's really fucking fantastic.

00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:10.000
Everyone's a lot.

00:20:10.019 --> 00:20:10.119
Yeah.

00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:15.163
It's just the Ethereum baby.

00:20:15.182 --> 00:20:15.262
Yeah.

00:20:15.303 --> 00:20:15.443
Yeah.

00:20:15.523 --> 00:20:16.483
You know,

00:20:17.825 --> 00:20:18.965
I think the problem with Cosmos

00:20:19.006 --> 00:20:20.066
and is that like a lot,

00:20:20.086 --> 00:20:21.186
like people just completely

00:20:21.567 --> 00:20:22.788
lost their like vision around it.

00:20:22.807 --> 00:20:27.830
Um, like it just became another.

00:20:29.251 --> 00:20:31.453
VM that had a super

00:20:31.534 --> 00:20:33.236
underfunded developer ecosystem.

00:20:35.518 --> 00:20:36.239
And I think if you look at

00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:37.900
the amounts of value that

00:20:38.661 --> 00:20:40.261
Cosmos has created for the

00:20:40.281 --> 00:20:42.503
Cosmos ecosystem versus the

00:20:42.544 --> 00:20:44.726
amounts of funding that has gone its way,

00:20:44.967 --> 00:20:50.571
I think you'll find a lack of balance.

00:20:51.932 --> 00:20:52.733
Right.

00:20:53.734 --> 00:20:53.954
Yeah.

00:20:55.193 --> 00:20:55.634
But I mean,

00:20:55.653 --> 00:20:59.518
I guess the current amount of

00:20:59.538 --> 00:21:01.699
money in the Cosmos ecosystem is like,

00:21:01.719 --> 00:21:05.182
I don't know, about three-fifty.

00:21:07.683 --> 00:21:09.605
Yeah, well, to answer your question,

00:21:09.965 --> 00:21:12.387
it's not Cosmos, it's WebAssembly.

00:21:13.446 --> 00:21:15.788
yeah okay so and you know

00:21:15.828 --> 00:21:17.190
we're for what it's worth

00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:17.849
we're going to try

00:21:17.930 --> 00:21:19.991
everything in our power to

00:21:20.211 --> 00:21:21.333
make it so that existing

00:21:21.393 --> 00:21:22.433
Cosmos and contracts will

00:21:22.453 --> 00:21:23.273
just work out of the box

00:21:23.374 --> 00:21:24.315
without with very few

00:21:24.335 --> 00:21:25.816
changes just change the

00:21:25.836 --> 00:21:29.979
library that's nice or um I

00:21:29.999 --> 00:21:31.180
mean we'll see like I'm not

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.101
going to promise that but

00:21:32.121 --> 00:21:33.362
that's like our design goal

00:21:35.702 --> 00:21:36.903
I mean does it really

00:21:36.943 --> 00:21:39.046
matter that Cosmos and contracts work

00:21:43.972 --> 00:21:44.113
I mean,

00:21:44.153 --> 00:21:46.594
if there's a better design that

00:21:46.614 --> 00:21:47.933
breaks backwards compatibility,

00:21:47.973 --> 00:21:50.433
then just do that instead, right?

00:21:50.473 --> 00:21:51.634
Yeah, I mean, the thing is,

00:21:52.214 --> 00:21:53.454
what do you want to be compatible with?

00:21:53.755 --> 00:21:55.175
And I'm a big believer in

00:21:55.236 --> 00:21:55.976
interoperability.

00:21:57.036 --> 00:21:57.836
And I think it's important

00:21:57.855 --> 00:21:59.757
to be compatible with

00:21:59.836 --> 00:22:01.257
Ethereum and the EVM standard.

00:22:01.576 --> 00:22:02.836
And Cosmos makes all these

00:22:02.876 --> 00:22:05.018
weird design choices that

00:22:05.038 --> 00:22:06.397
make it a pain in the ass

00:22:07.238 --> 00:22:08.438
to interact between these

00:22:08.478 --> 00:22:10.278
two massive ecosystems, right?

00:22:15.208 --> 00:22:16.249
Yeah, true, I guess.

00:22:17.009 --> 00:22:19.490
But then, I mean,

00:22:19.971 --> 00:22:20.990
would we be saying this if

00:22:21.030 --> 00:22:22.172
it wasn't a bear market?

00:22:22.231 --> 00:22:23.251
Like we didn't care that

00:22:23.291 --> 00:22:24.093
much about EVM

00:22:24.133 --> 00:22:25.192
compatibility when it

00:22:25.212 --> 00:22:26.473
wasn't the only shop in

00:22:26.513 --> 00:22:28.755
town because you know,

00:22:29.015 --> 00:22:30.435
there's just no money elsewhere.

00:22:30.516 --> 00:22:32.596
Right.

00:22:32.696 --> 00:22:39.201
I mean, I did like it just, uh, the like,

00:22:39.280 --> 00:22:39.701
yeah,

00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:40.760
market collapsed before we could

00:22:40.801 --> 00:22:42.843
really get to that point.

00:22:42.883 --> 00:22:43.143
Right.

00:22:43.202 --> 00:22:43.442
Like.

00:22:45.278 --> 00:22:46.357
I really always wanted to

00:22:46.377 --> 00:22:47.239
make it so you could use

00:22:47.278 --> 00:22:50.460
MetaMask with no snap, right?

00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.220
Who cares if you're using Wasm or the EVM?

00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:53.240
You should just be able to

00:22:53.320 --> 00:22:54.780
use the tools that you like, right?

00:22:55.941 --> 00:22:57.122
There's so many tools that

00:22:57.221 --> 00:22:59.061
integrate with Ethereum's

00:22:59.142 --> 00:23:00.722
events models and how you

00:23:00.742 --> 00:23:02.242
call RPCs and encode data

00:23:02.262 --> 00:23:03.304
for smart contracts calls.

00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:07.020
It's like,

00:23:07.300 --> 00:23:09.061
if we made a version that was

00:23:09.102 --> 00:23:10.863
just orders of magnitude better,

00:23:11.463 --> 00:23:12.304
I would change my mind.

00:23:12.344 --> 00:23:12.864
But in fact,

00:23:12.884 --> 00:23:14.525
we've made a version that's

00:23:14.964 --> 00:23:15.986
basically super poorly

00:23:16.026 --> 00:23:17.507
documented and underfunded.

00:23:20.788 --> 00:23:22.088
Yeah, I guess that's true enough.

00:23:22.409 --> 00:23:27.652
But then that is the nature of, well,

00:23:30.153 --> 00:23:31.154
yeah what's the blame for

00:23:31.174 --> 00:23:32.455
that in the cosmos it's

00:23:32.695 --> 00:23:33.957
it's I guess it's probably

00:23:33.977 --> 00:23:34.478
I don't think we should

00:23:34.518 --> 00:23:35.679
talk about we shouldn't

00:23:35.699 --> 00:23:36.819
talk about the things in

00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:38.300
the past so we what I want

00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:39.060
to talk about is the

00:23:39.102 --> 00:23:41.002
exciting future of how we

00:23:41.042 --> 00:23:42.785
actually make like some

00:23:42.805 --> 00:23:43.644
really interesting things

00:23:43.664 --> 00:23:45.646
for once right what's the

00:23:45.666 --> 00:23:46.367
interesting thing you want

00:23:46.387 --> 00:23:49.809
to make um cybernetic

00:23:49.891 --> 00:23:51.731
organizations a bunch of

00:23:51.771 --> 00:23:54.054
other like crazy stuff I

00:23:54.074 --> 00:23:55.095
don't know there's a lot of

00:23:55.115 --> 00:23:55.815
interesting things I want

00:23:55.835 --> 00:23:57.477
to make on make I want to make uh

00:23:58.851 --> 00:23:59.290
For example,

00:23:59.471 --> 00:24:01.993
I want to see actually fully

00:24:02.034 --> 00:24:03.134
decentralized applications.

00:24:03.214 --> 00:24:04.155
I should just be able to

00:24:04.195 --> 00:24:05.196
connect to a peer-to-peer

00:24:05.217 --> 00:24:07.038
network and be able to get

00:24:07.097 --> 00:24:08.599
the front end and every bit

00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:09.881
of code I need to run a

00:24:09.921 --> 00:24:11.362
full stack decentralized application.

00:24:11.422 --> 00:24:12.242
I should be able to run it

00:24:12.262 --> 00:24:16.105
myself if I want to.

00:24:16.166 --> 00:24:16.446
Sure.

00:24:16.467 --> 00:24:16.886
I mean,

00:24:17.768 --> 00:24:18.808
that's the kind of direction that

00:24:18.848 --> 00:24:19.730
something like Penumbra has

00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:20.951
gone in because if you're

00:24:21.010 --> 00:24:22.152
building privacy-first apps,

00:24:22.172 --> 00:24:22.913
you need to have...

00:24:24.592 --> 00:24:24.971
Definitely.

00:24:25.392 --> 00:24:27.053
This is super relevant for privacy, right?

00:24:27.512 --> 00:24:28.692
Local compute and whatnot.

00:24:29.053 --> 00:24:29.492
Yeah.

00:24:30.633 --> 00:24:32.294
So if you're making a ZK

00:24:32.334 --> 00:24:34.413
circuit in WebAssembly, right,

00:24:34.933 --> 00:24:35.654
which is running in their

00:24:35.694 --> 00:24:37.255
browser extension or on their browser,

00:24:39.075 --> 00:24:40.875
you need a way to distribute that.

00:24:43.976 --> 00:24:45.957
Yes, but you don't need global state.

00:24:50.198 --> 00:24:51.637
You don't need permanent global state.

00:24:53.814 --> 00:24:54.273
That's fun.

00:24:54.574 --> 00:24:55.075
I don't know.

00:24:55.095 --> 00:24:56.994
I'm just trying to make new

00:24:57.015 --> 00:24:58.955
ways of distributing apps

00:24:59.135 --> 00:25:04.419
and actually making them decentralized.

00:25:04.459 --> 00:25:06.059
What's the goal of decentralization?

00:25:06.099 --> 00:25:07.279
Is it censorship resistance,

00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:08.780
or is it just distribution?

00:25:08.921 --> 00:25:09.000
No,

00:25:09.020 --> 00:25:10.582
the goal of decentralization is

00:25:10.761 --> 00:25:12.501
actually much more based.

00:25:13.022 --> 00:25:14.502
It's all about terms of service.

00:25:15.884 --> 00:25:18.724
And decentralization is a terrible word.

00:25:18.865 --> 00:25:20.006
No one cares about decentralization.

00:25:20.546 --> 00:25:21.547
But people should care about

00:25:21.567 --> 00:25:22.386
the terms of service

00:25:22.406 --> 00:25:22.988
because right now there's

00:25:23.048 --> 00:25:24.028
all these tech companies

00:25:24.509 --> 00:25:26.471
that are basically fucking

00:25:26.490 --> 00:25:27.951
people over with their terms of service.

00:25:27.991 --> 00:25:29.413
Like Betty is in Slack and

00:25:29.432 --> 00:25:31.394
she's just doing her job in HR.

00:25:31.954 --> 00:25:33.976
And little does she know

00:25:34.557 --> 00:25:35.657
that Slack is now taking

00:25:35.698 --> 00:25:37.378
Betty's data to train an AI

00:25:37.459 --> 00:25:38.779
agent that will replace her job.

00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:41.082
And her company is actually

00:25:41.122 --> 00:25:42.202
paying Slack to do this.

00:25:43.257 --> 00:25:44.337
that we're like paying

00:25:44.357 --> 00:25:45.739
people to like take our data.

00:25:47.080 --> 00:25:51.164
We are like letting these tech monopolies,

00:25:51.204 --> 00:25:52.925
these like techno feudalist states,

00:25:52.967 --> 00:25:55.008
like basically like take

00:25:55.108 --> 00:25:56.569
all our rights over these platforms,

00:25:56.690 --> 00:25:56.910
right?

00:25:57.310 --> 00:25:57.750
To which we,

00:25:57.810 --> 00:25:58.991
the users bring all the value.

00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:01.589
And we're letting them like

00:26:01.750 --> 00:26:02.790
manipulate our time and

00:26:02.830 --> 00:26:03.730
attention and just steal

00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:04.391
our data from us.

00:26:04.431 --> 00:26:05.892
Like this is to me very

00:26:05.971 --> 00:26:07.612
unacceptable as we head

00:26:07.672 --> 00:26:09.531
into the twenty first century.

00:26:09.592 --> 00:26:10.653
Like networks are

00:26:10.752 --> 00:26:12.153
increasingly important in

00:26:12.192 --> 00:26:13.593
the geopolitical landscape.

00:26:14.413 --> 00:26:15.153
You could argue that

00:26:15.433 --> 00:26:16.233
networks are actually the

00:26:16.314 --> 00:26:17.934
most powerful form of

00:26:17.994 --> 00:26:18.835
governance out there.

00:26:19.375 --> 00:26:21.494
And yet the ownership and

00:26:21.575 --> 00:26:23.375
governance of networks is like

00:26:24.403 --> 00:26:26.023
completely fucked right now

00:26:26.804 --> 00:26:28.305
um and so decentralization

00:26:28.325 --> 00:26:29.285
matters because it's about

00:26:29.345 --> 00:26:30.726
giving you the best terms

00:26:30.746 --> 00:26:32.026
of service because what's

00:26:32.105 --> 00:26:33.126
better than your own

00:26:33.166 --> 00:26:34.146
fucking terms of service

00:26:34.667 --> 00:26:36.067
it's my data I do with it

00:26:36.087 --> 00:26:37.189
what I want maybe I want to

00:26:37.209 --> 00:26:38.608
like pull it with other

00:26:38.648 --> 00:26:39.849
people and like join a data

00:26:39.950 --> 00:26:41.990
union and try to monetize it somehow or

00:26:42.790 --> 00:26:42.990
You know,

00:26:43.010 --> 00:26:45.192
but like give people like a choice.

00:26:45.311 --> 00:26:45.992
And the only way you give

00:26:46.012 --> 00:26:48.614
people a choice is by disintermediation,

00:26:48.713 --> 00:26:49.634
not having centralized

00:26:49.673 --> 00:26:50.634
parties in the middle.

00:26:50.934 --> 00:26:51.815
They're going to be

00:26:51.914 --> 00:26:53.135
incentivized to just like

00:26:53.195 --> 00:26:55.017
do the wrong thing by their shareholders.

00:26:55.096 --> 00:26:55.317
Right.

00:26:55.336 --> 00:26:58.057
So like to me,

00:26:58.157 --> 00:26:59.278
like decentralization only

00:26:59.318 --> 00:27:00.318
matters because of the

00:27:00.419 --> 00:27:01.579
politics of networks.

00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:02.220
Right.

00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:03.421
And we want to get back to a

00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:04.721
real decentralized web

00:27:04.781 --> 00:27:06.883
again that puts the users

00:27:06.923 --> 00:27:08.702
in control and not just

00:27:08.843 --> 00:27:11.924
farms them like serfs.

00:27:12.005 --> 00:27:12.085
Yeah.

00:27:13.003 --> 00:27:13.483
I agree with that.

00:27:13.644 --> 00:27:15.105
I don't know if blockchain

00:27:15.145 --> 00:27:16.386
has to be the solution to that, however.

00:27:17.867 --> 00:27:19.289
I mean, the open web, I mean,

00:27:19.309 --> 00:27:20.471
the reason we're on web browsers,

00:27:20.510 --> 00:27:22.112
we're on doing this and DNS

00:27:22.132 --> 00:27:22.913
and everything else that

00:27:22.952 --> 00:27:23.594
came along with that,

00:27:23.653 --> 00:27:26.256
that was the original vision of that,

00:27:26.496 --> 00:27:26.695
right?

00:27:28.077 --> 00:27:28.278
And...

00:27:29.724 --> 00:27:31.885
And there's still a large

00:27:31.965 --> 00:27:32.506
part of that

00:27:32.606 --> 00:27:34.086
decentralization that still exists.

00:27:34.527 --> 00:27:35.887
Email, like things like that,

00:27:35.928 --> 00:27:38.068
that are totally unowned, right?

00:27:38.088 --> 00:27:39.190
Like it's a standard that is

00:27:39.250 --> 00:27:39.990
completely unowned.

00:27:40.029 --> 00:27:41.010
And same with DNS.

00:27:41.070 --> 00:27:43.551
Like DNS, I control these domains,

00:27:43.592 --> 00:27:45.012
like bigballsblockchain.com.

00:27:45.053 --> 00:27:46.693
We have a total, we can do that,

00:27:46.814 --> 00:27:47.594
whatever we want with that.

00:27:47.634 --> 00:27:49.055
We can control where that goes,

00:27:49.075 --> 00:27:50.655
who views that, all that type of stuff.

00:27:50.675 --> 00:27:52.916
There's no intermediaries of that.

00:27:53.416 --> 00:27:54.998
And I do,

00:27:55.397 --> 00:27:56.417
I totally agree with what you said.

00:27:56.499 --> 00:27:57.919
I just don't know if...

00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:01.221
that necessarily means that

00:28:01.260 --> 00:28:02.201
this is the solution to

00:28:02.241 --> 00:28:03.961
that problem and and I it's

00:28:03.982 --> 00:28:04.762
a huge problem and there

00:28:04.782 --> 00:28:05.804
needs to be some way and I

00:28:05.844 --> 00:28:06.604
think that the way that the

00:28:06.624 --> 00:28:09.164
way that that solution that

00:28:09.224 --> 00:28:10.185
change might be that the

00:28:10.226 --> 00:28:11.547
solution of that problem is

00:28:11.747 --> 00:28:13.028
incentives and the

00:28:13.048 --> 00:28:13.788
incentives and also

00:28:13.847 --> 00:28:15.009
payments structure of that

00:28:15.308 --> 00:28:16.630
because otherwise it's I

00:28:16.910 --> 00:28:17.910
don't know it's just

00:28:17.990 --> 00:28:20.592
creating it it's creating a decentralized

00:28:21.569 --> 00:28:22.671
group that might not

00:28:22.711 --> 00:28:23.612
necessarily be a hundred

00:28:23.632 --> 00:28:24.432
percent decentralized.

00:28:24.452 --> 00:28:25.773
It still has the same ownership of,

00:28:26.234 --> 00:28:27.215
it's just more visible of

00:28:27.236 --> 00:28:28.176
corruption than what,

00:28:28.237 --> 00:28:28.836
than the original

00:28:28.876 --> 00:28:29.798
corruption type of idea.

00:28:29.939 --> 00:28:33.582
You know what I mean?

00:28:33.602 --> 00:28:34.863
Sounds like one step forward, at least,

00:28:34.884 --> 00:28:35.763
you know, I totally agree with that.

00:28:39.078 --> 00:28:41.320
Look, these systems are evolutionary.

00:28:41.642 --> 00:28:42.823
And if you're actually into

00:28:42.843 --> 00:28:44.183
crypto for like, you know,

00:28:44.243 --> 00:28:46.046
the ideas is that like you

00:28:46.066 --> 00:28:47.186
have to realize that like

00:28:47.748 --> 00:28:49.309
the current version is not perfect,

00:28:49.450 --> 00:28:51.311
but there's so many of this

00:28:51.511 --> 00:28:53.093
ecosystem of ideas that are

00:28:53.113 --> 00:28:55.135
evolving in like a certain direction,

00:28:55.195 --> 00:28:55.415
right?

00:28:55.435 --> 00:28:56.997
Like look at blockchain tech

00:28:57.057 --> 00:28:59.140
now versus like five years ago.

00:29:00.446 --> 00:29:01.307
orders of magnitude

00:29:01.347 --> 00:29:02.167
difference in terms of

00:29:02.228 --> 00:29:04.049
performance and capabilities.

00:29:06.511 --> 00:29:07.092
At the same time,

00:29:07.232 --> 00:29:08.333
everything's kind of boring

00:29:08.373 --> 00:29:08.953
and shitty now.

00:29:08.973 --> 00:29:09.994
It doesn't feel like there's

00:29:10.015 --> 00:29:11.476
a lot of new ideas,

00:29:11.516 --> 00:29:14.117
but the tech is amazing now.

00:29:14.438 --> 00:29:15.898
We have multiple blockchain

00:29:15.919 --> 00:29:16.779
stacks that you can choose

00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.381
from that will clock above

00:29:18.401 --> 00:29:19.923
a thousand transactions per second.

00:29:23.384 --> 00:29:23.865
Arguably,

00:29:26.147 --> 00:29:28.829
the new problems are just like...

00:29:33.685 --> 00:29:34.905
Like actually building

00:29:35.047 --> 00:29:36.326
meaningful experiences for people.

00:29:37.227 --> 00:29:37.366
Like,

00:29:37.847 --> 00:29:40.348
I know it's such a cliche thing in crypto,

00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:42.328
but, um, you know,

00:29:42.489 --> 00:29:44.529
all our decentralized apps are like,

00:29:44.769 --> 00:29:45.109
you know,

00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:47.651
basically run on Vercel and

00:29:47.851 --> 00:29:49.711
they've got an indexer backend,

00:29:49.751 --> 00:29:51.653
like custom backend DB that they use.

00:29:51.673 --> 00:29:52.813
So they give you like the,

00:29:52.853 --> 00:29:54.294
that user experience or whatever.

00:29:55.094 --> 00:29:59.516
And, you know, um, I think we,

00:30:00.115 --> 00:30:00.996
we should just be a little

00:30:01.016 --> 00:30:02.057
bit more radical than that

00:30:02.116 --> 00:30:02.936
as an industry.

00:30:04.669 --> 00:30:05.750
And decentralization can

00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:07.510
actually lead to amazing

00:30:07.590 --> 00:30:10.092
new types of user experiences.

00:30:10.152 --> 00:30:11.192
It doesn't have to be hard.

00:30:11.732 --> 00:30:12.953
The great thing is like you

00:30:12.973 --> 00:30:14.114
can just in your browser

00:30:14.173 --> 00:30:15.315
and in like a desktop app,

00:30:15.355 --> 00:30:16.434
you like open up a block

00:30:16.474 --> 00:30:17.435
explorer and you click on a

00:30:17.476 --> 00:30:18.415
smart contract and you can

00:30:18.536 --> 00:30:21.038
see you can download from the chain,

00:30:21.337 --> 00:30:23.459
right, the UI to interact with that thing,

00:30:23.499 --> 00:30:24.298
right?

00:30:24.338 --> 00:30:26.279
Yeah.

00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:27.480
And you can trust that thing.

00:30:28.828 --> 00:30:31.670
was that hash of that Wasm

00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:32.549
code that you're gonna run

00:30:33.050 --> 00:30:35.891
was published by this person at this time,

00:30:36.632 --> 00:30:37.751
like with this version,

00:30:38.332 --> 00:30:39.393
with this other service

00:30:39.432 --> 00:30:41.333
verifying that they took

00:30:41.353 --> 00:30:42.114
the source code and

00:30:42.153 --> 00:30:44.173
compiled it and got that same checksum,

00:30:44.493 --> 00:30:45.275
right?

00:30:45.295 --> 00:30:45.734
Sure.

00:30:46.872 --> 00:30:47.051
You know,

00:30:47.092 --> 00:30:48.333
I think that we actually do need

00:30:48.353 --> 00:30:49.313
blockchains for this stuff.

00:30:49.794 --> 00:30:50.994
It's because we've lost the

00:30:51.015 --> 00:30:52.855
ability to know what's even real anymore.

00:30:53.455 --> 00:30:54.777
Like, do you, like, I don't know about you,

00:30:54.797 --> 00:30:56.498
but if you see a video online,

00:30:56.518 --> 00:30:57.578
do you like actually think

00:30:57.598 --> 00:30:58.179
it's real anymore?

00:30:58.239 --> 00:30:58.818
Or it's part of you?

00:30:58.838 --> 00:30:59.038
Like,

00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:00.740
this is probably just like AI

00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:01.480
generated somehow.

00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:01.580
Yeah.

00:31:02.340 --> 00:31:03.682
Well, I mean, I mean,

00:31:03.721 --> 00:31:04.823
it's going to get worse and worse, right?

00:31:05.949 --> 00:31:07.410
But that's the thing.

00:31:08.070 --> 00:31:09.811
Botchains have like a huge

00:31:09.852 --> 00:31:11.153
total addressable market

00:31:11.512 --> 00:31:13.275
because we can't solve this

00:31:13.335 --> 00:31:14.635
basic thing anymore of

00:31:14.695 --> 00:31:15.556
knowing what's true.

00:31:15.936 --> 00:31:17.518
And just wait until like... Well,

00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:23.402
block photography solves that, right?

00:31:23.442 --> 00:31:26.104
They solve that a hash matches.

00:31:26.183 --> 00:31:28.365
They solve an equality question.

00:31:28.385 --> 00:31:30.988
They solve if X equals X...

00:31:32.385 --> 00:31:32.826
That's great.

00:31:33.165 --> 00:31:34.767
If file hash equals this and

00:31:34.807 --> 00:31:36.586
the signature is equal to public key,

00:31:37.188 --> 00:31:38.188
you publish this image.

00:31:39.307 --> 00:31:45.049
No, that public key did, but it's, it's,

00:31:45.569 --> 00:31:49.612
it's still, it's still not, uh,

00:31:49.672 --> 00:31:50.852
it's a low trust situation,

00:31:50.892 --> 00:31:52.333
but it's not a zero trust situation.

00:31:52.413 --> 00:31:54.133
And the verifiability of it

00:31:54.333 --> 00:31:57.814
is potentially moot, right?

00:31:57.913 --> 00:31:59.414
Because people,

00:32:04.298 --> 00:32:04.518
No,

00:32:04.597 --> 00:32:05.659
it goes hand in hand with the other

00:32:05.679 --> 00:32:06.759
thing I've been harping on for.

00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:08.220
I don't think we get this

00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:09.381
deep in this episode, to be honest.

00:32:09.421 --> 00:32:10.422
But it goes hand in hand

00:32:10.442 --> 00:32:10.922
with the other thing,

00:32:10.942 --> 00:32:13.084
which I think is that is the bigger issue,

00:32:13.104 --> 00:32:15.244
which is identity.

00:32:15.944 --> 00:32:18.366
And the fact that you and I, Jake,

00:32:18.386 --> 00:32:19.387
put up three hundred

00:32:19.407 --> 00:32:20.808
versions of a bullshit

00:32:20.848 --> 00:32:23.450
video doesn't necessarily make it true.

00:32:23.810 --> 00:32:24.030
Right.

00:32:24.111 --> 00:32:26.031
But how do I identify that

00:32:26.092 --> 00:32:27.252
this is the person that

00:32:27.712 --> 00:32:29.374
that let's say it's a say it's a news.

00:32:30.134 --> 00:32:31.635
Let's use another example

00:32:31.675 --> 00:32:32.737
that's not social media.

00:32:33.682 --> 00:32:37.224
Um, like, uh, you know,

00:32:37.865 --> 00:32:39.125
we don't need blockchains

00:32:39.326 --> 00:32:40.727
cause like we've got things,

00:32:40.747 --> 00:32:41.528
we've got systems that

00:32:41.548 --> 00:32:42.807
already work like PDFs and

00:32:42.847 --> 00:32:44.549
Excel spreadsheets, right?

00:32:44.609 --> 00:32:48.132
Our government loves these things and, uh,

00:32:48.531 --> 00:32:49.393
and, uh, you know,

00:32:49.413 --> 00:32:50.534
the great thing is you can

00:32:50.594 --> 00:32:51.574
now ask Claude.

00:32:51.673 --> 00:32:53.395
Claude is amazing at everything.

00:32:53.415 --> 00:32:55.656
Claude will generate you like realistic,

00:32:55.696 --> 00:32:57.919
like, uh, spreadsheets of invoices.

00:32:58.659 --> 00:32:59.680
Really good at this actually.

00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:01.421
And so if you want to like, you know,

00:33:01.461 --> 00:33:02.663
get some deductions for

00:33:02.702 --> 00:33:03.943
your stuff and you want to

00:33:03.963 --> 00:33:05.184
just generate like a fake

00:33:05.224 --> 00:33:07.988
paper trail and then like, like get like,

00:33:08.048 --> 00:33:08.268
you know,

00:33:08.307 --> 00:33:09.449
now we can make another AI

00:33:09.469 --> 00:33:10.230
that's going to generate

00:33:10.289 --> 00:33:11.490
fake images of receipts

00:33:11.932 --> 00:33:12.952
that will like match the

00:33:12.992 --> 00:33:13.613
things in the table.

00:33:13.673 --> 00:33:13.893
Right.

00:33:13.913 --> 00:33:14.653
Sure.

00:33:14.713 --> 00:33:15.974
Now I've got an amazing

00:33:16.036 --> 00:33:17.477
system to dupe these

00:33:17.537 --> 00:33:18.998
boomers into giving me a

00:33:19.098 --> 00:33:21.059
fuck ton of tax refunds and

00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:22.121
they'll never know what's true.

00:33:22.161 --> 00:33:22.501
Right.

00:33:24.607 --> 00:33:25.449
Yeah, there's no way to trace it.

00:33:25.469 --> 00:33:26.450
You're right.

00:33:26.470 --> 00:33:28.251
As generative AI gets better and better,

00:33:29.413 --> 00:33:30.634
it's a cat and mouse game, right?

00:33:31.316 --> 00:33:31.936
There's always going to be

00:33:31.997 --> 00:33:33.659
new evolutions of this cat and mouse game,

00:33:34.180 --> 00:33:36.221
but if we don't ever try to

00:33:36.542 --> 00:33:37.943
evolve as the side that's

00:33:37.983 --> 00:33:39.046
trying to have some amount

00:33:39.086 --> 00:33:41.028
of verifiability and trustedness...

00:33:42.162 --> 00:33:43.722
we're going to get very much left behind.

00:33:44.423 --> 00:33:46.223
This stuff is moving incredibly quickly.

00:33:47.023 --> 00:33:48.023
And I actually do think it

00:33:48.084 --> 00:33:49.724
is a good... It doesn't

00:33:49.765 --> 00:33:51.526
necessarily need a cryptocurrency, right?

00:33:51.846 --> 00:33:54.067
But it's a good use of blockchains, right?

00:33:54.106 --> 00:33:55.666
Registries.

00:33:56.228 --> 00:33:57.708
And I think that at the end of the day,

00:33:58.367 --> 00:33:59.909
signatures are the most

00:34:00.808 --> 00:34:01.849
basic fucking thing.

00:34:02.329 --> 00:34:03.851
The White House publishes a

00:34:03.951 --> 00:34:04.810
public key that they're

00:34:04.830 --> 00:34:06.832
going to use to sign

00:34:07.092 --> 00:34:08.713
emergency press announcements and...

00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:11.192
It doesn't have to be on a blockchain,

00:34:11.213 --> 00:34:13.114
but when they release that

00:34:13.135 --> 00:34:14.617
video from the White House,

00:34:14.677 --> 00:34:17.800
it's signed with a watermark or whatever.

00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:21.224
Don't they do that?

00:34:22.882 --> 00:34:23.862
They must.

00:34:25.123 --> 00:34:28.108
It drives how many of our

00:34:28.148 --> 00:34:29.730
government institutions do

00:34:29.769 --> 00:34:31.030
not have good

00:34:31.331 --> 00:34:32.152
infrastructure because

00:34:32.211 --> 00:34:32.713
setting up good

00:34:32.753 --> 00:34:33.833
infrastructure costs money.

00:34:33.893 --> 00:34:34.414
They have to bring in

00:34:34.474 --> 00:34:35.817
expensive consultants like

00:34:35.956 --> 00:34:37.137
Oracle that are going to

00:34:37.197 --> 00:34:38.119
build them some fucking

00:34:38.259 --> 00:34:39.601
garbage UI and charge them

00:34:39.681 --> 00:34:40.581
half a billion dollars.

00:34:41.483 --> 00:34:41.603
Mm-hmm.

00:34:44.849 --> 00:34:45.030
Yeah,

00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:46.512
so a lot of stuff doesn't actually

00:34:46.532 --> 00:34:48.012
have like any good processes around it,

00:34:48.052 --> 00:34:48.333
whatever.

00:34:48.414 --> 00:34:50.054
I'm trying to get this one

00:34:50.094 --> 00:34:50.976
document from the state of

00:34:50.996 --> 00:34:52.016
California and I literally

00:34:52.036 --> 00:34:53.898
have to print out a fucking

00:34:53.918 --> 00:34:55.059
form and mail them a check.

00:34:55.641 --> 00:34:56.782
And I'm very upset about this.

00:34:56.802 --> 00:34:59.583
Fucking check.

00:35:02.755 --> 00:35:05.018
I, yeah, I agree with you.

00:35:05.038 --> 00:35:05.057
I,

00:35:05.077 --> 00:35:07.099
I do think that the verifiability and

00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:08.380
the hash and everything you

00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.362
mentioned is correct.

00:35:09.382 --> 00:35:11.344
And the ability to be able to verify and,

00:35:11.945 --> 00:35:13.867
and say that somebody, but that, but your,

00:35:13.967 --> 00:35:14.847
your white house example,

00:35:14.867 --> 00:35:15.768
and even your federal government,

00:35:15.789 --> 00:35:17.230
it still has an identity issue, right?

00:35:17.530 --> 00:35:18.411
Like, how do you know?

00:35:19.391 --> 00:35:20.333
Well,

00:35:20.353 --> 00:35:21.954
let's build decentralized identity

00:35:21.994 --> 00:35:23.094
because maybe we shouldn't

00:35:23.914 --> 00:35:24.856
put our identity in their hands.

00:35:24.876 --> 00:35:26.097
It has to be verified by an

00:35:26.137 --> 00:35:27.938
alternative source, right?

00:35:27.958 --> 00:35:29.199
Well, it needs third-party verification,

00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:30.480
which would end up being a government,

00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:31.139
unfortunately.

00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:32.201
Guess what?

00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:34.442
In the decentralized identity standard,

00:35:34.601 --> 00:35:36.403
we can all own our identity

00:35:36.563 --> 00:35:37.905
and have third parties

00:35:37.925 --> 00:35:39.806
verify those identities, right?

00:35:40.246 --> 00:35:41.907
Those third parties could be governance,

00:35:42.027 --> 00:35:43.148
or they could be DAOs, right?

00:35:43.469 --> 00:35:45.010
The DID standard is amazing

00:35:45.110 --> 00:35:45.952
in how it's designed,

00:35:46.351 --> 00:35:47.172
and that it doesn't force

00:35:47.213 --> 00:35:49.514
you to use a government to

00:35:50.576 --> 00:35:52.097
have your identity, but at the same time,

00:35:52.157 --> 00:35:53.759
they can still interact with it,

00:35:53.798 --> 00:35:54.639
and if you need that kind

00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:55.380
of verification,

00:35:56.123 --> 00:35:57.485
You can get it in a decentralized way.

00:35:57.885 --> 00:35:58.965
And with ZK Identity,

00:35:58.985 --> 00:36:00.326
we can do this and do it privately.

00:36:01.085 --> 00:36:02.487
One of the projects that I'm

00:36:02.567 --> 00:36:03.746
pleased to be working with

00:36:04.007 --> 00:36:06.889
is basically doing,

00:36:06.909 --> 00:36:08.168
they're called Freedom Tool,

00:36:08.188 --> 00:36:10.510
and they're making ZK proof of identity.

00:36:10.851 --> 00:36:12.190
And the user experience is amazing.

00:36:12.510 --> 00:36:13.472
You just download this app,

00:36:13.831 --> 00:36:15.992
you put your passport next to it, right?

00:36:17.121 --> 00:36:19.123
And you create ZK proofs of your passport,

00:36:19.143 --> 00:36:19.784
right?

00:36:19.824 --> 00:36:20.804
And you can create a ZK

00:36:20.844 --> 00:36:23.905
proof that you are over this age,

00:36:24.286 --> 00:36:25.226
that you are a part of this

00:36:25.246 --> 00:36:26.847
country or like anything, right?

00:36:27.007 --> 00:36:29.588
Without ever ideally like, you know,

00:36:29.668 --> 00:36:30.949
revealing your social

00:36:30.969 --> 00:36:33.271
security number or whatever.

00:36:33.331 --> 00:36:34.052
Yeah.

00:36:34.411 --> 00:36:35.472
I mean,

00:36:35.532 --> 00:36:36.793
I think that's the problem to solve.

00:36:36.914 --> 00:36:38.454
Like that is such an important problem.

00:36:41.036 --> 00:36:42.056
I see Rama's question.

00:36:42.097 --> 00:36:43.077
I want to just call it out.

00:36:43.518 --> 00:36:44.257
Jack does this.

00:36:44.717 --> 00:36:45.358
But, you know, the thing with...

00:36:46.222 --> 00:36:47.204
The thing with Checked is

00:36:47.664 --> 00:36:49.909
they bought into an idea that,

00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:51.791
I won't say this is a bad idea,

00:36:51.811 --> 00:36:53.114
I'm really trying to be positive,

00:36:54.096 --> 00:36:55.358
but I think that they're

00:36:55.378 --> 00:36:56.418
very limited by the fact

00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.641
that they've introduced

00:36:57.722 --> 00:36:58.963
another chain we probably don't need.

00:36:59.769 --> 00:37:02.112
well that's the issue I I

00:37:02.132 --> 00:37:03.012
remember using it two years

00:37:03.032 --> 00:37:03.753
ago I couldn't figure it

00:37:03.773 --> 00:37:04.534
out why would I want to

00:37:04.614 --> 00:37:05.815
outsource identity to a

00:37:05.856 --> 00:37:07.478
third party if I'm building

00:37:07.538 --> 00:37:08.478
if I'm blackrock for

00:37:08.498 --> 00:37:11.021
example and uh I'm gonna

00:37:11.041 --> 00:37:12.603
like do some huge fucking

00:37:12.722 --> 00:37:14.846
rwa thing that's like would

00:37:15.085 --> 00:37:17.268
I uh oh I need to I need to

00:37:17.347 --> 00:37:19.871
use the checked blockchain yes definitely

00:37:25.215 --> 00:37:25.876
It's a good idea, though.

00:37:25.916 --> 00:37:27.097
Decentralized identity is great.

00:37:27.237 --> 00:37:28.599
And honestly,

00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:30.340
if they can get to market and

00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:31.400
make a user experience

00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:33.762
around decentralized identity,

00:37:34.184 --> 00:37:34.744
that's great.

00:37:35.103 --> 00:37:36.465
They'll be successful, right?

00:37:36.746 --> 00:37:37.646
It ultimately comes down to

00:37:37.666 --> 00:37:39.208
them to be able to make a

00:37:39.327 --> 00:37:40.349
great user experience

00:37:40.369 --> 00:37:42.409
around these next-gen technologies,

00:37:42.489 --> 00:37:42.650
right?

00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:42.751
Yeah.

00:37:43.050 --> 00:37:45.313
Yep.

00:37:45.393 --> 00:37:47.474
How are we getting this tangent?

00:37:48.021 --> 00:37:48.842
This doesn't feel like a

00:37:48.902 --> 00:37:49.943
normal Game of Thrones

00:37:50.063 --> 00:37:52.085
episode or Game of Nodes episode.

00:37:52.105 --> 00:37:52.704
I kind of thought we would

00:37:52.724 --> 00:37:53.945
just like talk about me.

00:37:54.067 --> 00:37:55.188
It's because Noel's not here.

00:37:55.228 --> 00:37:56.329
And because Noel is not here,

00:37:56.369 --> 00:37:59.210
we don't have enough kind of tangents.

00:37:59.471 --> 00:38:03.074
Like everybody's tired.

00:38:03.094 --> 00:38:03.235
Yeah.

00:38:03.295 --> 00:38:07.918
Well, three or four of us have young kids.

00:38:07.938 --> 00:38:08.358
Yeah.

00:38:08.420 --> 00:38:09.139
Increasingly now.

00:38:09.661 --> 00:38:10.320
Increasingly.

00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:11.081
Yeah.

00:38:11.121 --> 00:38:11.561
Good news.

00:38:12.182 --> 00:38:12.742
All healthy.

00:38:13.244 --> 00:38:14.425
A lot of boys in this channel.

00:38:14.976 --> 00:38:16.077
There are a lot of boys.

00:38:16.398 --> 00:38:18.378
Yeah, a lot of boy babies.

00:38:18.398 --> 00:38:20.498
Statistically more than you would expect.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.940
Yeah, I know.

00:38:23.981 --> 00:38:25.322
More than the average, you would think.

00:38:25.561 --> 00:38:28.963
Yeah, pretty certain.

00:38:29.202 --> 00:38:30.184
I felt it in my waters.

00:38:30.224 --> 00:38:33.045
I thought we were having a little girl.

00:38:33.144 --> 00:38:33.965
In your waters?

00:38:34.045 --> 00:38:34.525
What does that mean?

00:38:35.525 --> 00:38:37.126
Oh, you know, it's like an old wives thing,

00:38:37.186 --> 00:38:38.668
isn't it?

00:38:38.748 --> 00:38:39.807
It's something people say, isn't it?

00:38:39.827 --> 00:38:41.469
They say, oh, I felt it in my waters.

00:38:43.351 --> 00:38:44.291
I was being I was being

00:38:44.391 --> 00:38:47.733
ironical as the Americans might say.

00:38:48.074 --> 00:38:49.153
I got you.

00:38:49.213 --> 00:38:50.335
I got you.

00:38:50.355 --> 00:38:50.594
You got it.

00:38:50.635 --> 00:38:51.534
Schultz is still here.

00:38:51.655 --> 00:38:53.556
Is he like just he's he's

00:38:53.635 --> 00:38:55.036
like he's bouncing it out.

00:38:55.577 --> 00:38:57.538
I reckon Schultz was listed

00:38:57.597 --> 00:38:59.278
but is actually busy doing

00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:01.019
daddy dad life.

00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:03.181
He's probably listening into

00:39:03.201 --> 00:39:04.021
what you were saying and

00:39:04.061 --> 00:39:04.521
wanted to be able to

00:39:04.561 --> 00:39:05.422
comment on something and I

00:39:05.442 --> 00:39:06.182
was like oh shit I'm not on it.

00:39:06.202 --> 00:39:09.123
Let me get sidetracked.

00:39:09.324 --> 00:39:09.965
I got it.

00:39:10.405 --> 00:39:10.784
I got it.

00:39:11.996 --> 00:39:14.099
Yeah.

00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.402
Um, so, um, I'm going to show you,

00:39:17.422 --> 00:39:18.302
I want to show a demo.

00:39:18.882 --> 00:39:21.465
Um, it doesn't look sexy enough yet,

00:39:21.505 --> 00:39:22.306
so I'm not going to show it,

00:39:22.365 --> 00:39:22.786
but we have a,

00:39:23.626 --> 00:39:25.929
like a decentralized walls

00:39:25.949 --> 00:39:27.170
and based AI agents that

00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:27.931
are run by Dallas.

00:39:28.530 --> 00:39:29.072
It's pretty crazy.

00:39:32.670 --> 00:39:34.291
Tell me, say that again.

00:39:34.351 --> 00:39:37.755
Every time Jake says Wasm or Dow audience,

00:39:37.934 --> 00:39:39.755
please drink, drink along.

00:39:40.516 --> 00:39:40.836
Be fair.

00:39:40.976 --> 00:39:41.637
I didn't know.

00:39:41.677 --> 00:39:42.958
Everyone's getting fucked up.

00:39:42.978 --> 00:39:43.739
That's going to be great.

00:39:43.858 --> 00:39:44.539
Yeah.

00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:45.239
Probably drinking along at

00:39:45.260 --> 00:39:46.221
the same speed as Jake.

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:47.501
Wait, is that layer?

00:39:47.541 --> 00:39:48.222
That's something else.

00:39:49.663 --> 00:39:49.764
Yeah.

00:39:49.784 --> 00:39:50.724
It's called layer dot X, Y,

00:39:50.744 --> 00:39:51.764
Z. Type it in your browser.

00:39:51.784 --> 00:39:51.864
Okay.

00:39:52.385 --> 00:39:54.447
Yeah.

00:39:54.467 --> 00:39:55.967
It's kind of like we have a,

00:39:56.188 --> 00:39:56.989
we have two brands.

00:39:57.009 --> 00:39:58.530
We have like sort of like, I think the,

00:39:58.989 --> 00:39:59.831
the, uh,

00:40:01.532 --> 00:40:02.653
boring brand, which is layer.

00:40:02.713 --> 00:40:03.853
And then we have the cool brands,

00:40:03.893 --> 00:40:04.914
which is secret.

00:40:06.715 --> 00:40:07.876
Okay.

00:40:07.896 --> 00:40:08.476
So, and you said,

00:40:08.956 --> 00:40:09.617
what were you saying before

00:40:09.637 --> 00:40:10.898
about in the EVM space?

00:40:12.518 --> 00:40:13.940
I thought you said in the Ethereum world,

00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:14.920
like say that again.

00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.320
Yeah.

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.420
It's an Ethereum project.

00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:16.621
Oh, it is.

00:40:16.661 --> 00:40:16.780
Okay.

00:40:16.820 --> 00:40:22.043
Cause, uh, why not?

00:40:22.063 --> 00:40:22.623
Cause, uh,

00:40:22.664 --> 00:40:23.844
I've always been a theory of max

00:40:23.885 --> 00:40:24.664
up maximalists.

00:40:24.726 --> 00:40:24.965
Like,

00:40:25.835 --> 00:40:27.737
I think there's videos about that.

00:40:27.898 --> 00:40:29.719
I don't know.

00:40:29.759 --> 00:40:30.981
Most of my friends are in Ethereum,

00:40:31.221 --> 00:40:32.322
and frankly,

00:40:32.422 --> 00:40:35.864
I just want to go build cool shit.

00:40:37.485 --> 00:40:38.487
I want to push the boundaries.

00:40:38.586 --> 00:40:39.947
I want to make things like

00:40:40.349 --> 00:40:41.969
futurearchy and cybernetic

00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:43.331
organizations and new types

00:40:43.351 --> 00:40:44.893
of governance systems and

00:40:45.733 --> 00:40:47.215
actually make real, meaningful,

00:40:47.275 --> 00:40:48.755
decentralized apps and

00:40:49.717 --> 00:40:51.998
actually do things and not just be like,

00:40:54.150 --> 00:40:54.650
Yeah,

00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:56.210
and I think that... I'm not going to

00:40:56.231 --> 00:40:57.271
say anything bad about Cosmos.

00:40:57.311 --> 00:40:58.012
I think there's some great

00:40:58.072 --> 00:40:58.893
ideas in Cosmos.

00:40:59.753 --> 00:41:01.474
I think what we need is the

00:41:01.534 --> 00:41:03.876
true inner chain, right?

00:41:03.936 --> 00:41:04.297
There's no...

00:41:05.576 --> 00:41:07.697
I think Cosmos is too insular.

00:41:07.737 --> 00:41:09.717
The real thing is IBC.

00:41:09.797 --> 00:41:11.396
Cosmos Hub is the false god.

00:41:11.496 --> 00:41:13.677
IBC is the true god.

00:41:13.717 --> 00:41:14.057
Sure.

00:41:14.257 --> 00:41:17.679
But hang on a minute.

00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:19.358
Let's just go back a second.

00:41:19.398 --> 00:41:21.360
But then just building on

00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:23.500
top of the Cosmos being

00:41:23.539 --> 00:41:25.000
misguided and just going, well,

00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:26.260
let's build on top of Ethereum.

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:27.081
That's like the...

00:41:28.041 --> 00:41:30.481
that's like um that's like

00:41:30.501 --> 00:41:32.021
george sorel getting

00:41:32.141 --> 00:41:33.083
disillusioned with

00:41:33.143 --> 00:41:34.822
socialism in in france in

00:41:34.862 --> 00:41:36.382
like the nineteen fifty

00:41:36.503 --> 00:41:37.384
like nineteen fifteen or

00:41:37.403 --> 00:41:38.543
whatever going do you know

00:41:38.583 --> 00:41:40.284
what mussolini I reckon

00:41:41.045 --> 00:41:41.844
I've had I've had a

00:41:41.885 --> 00:41:43.425
revelation mussolini's

00:41:43.485 --> 00:41:44.965
actually the answer that's

00:41:45.045 --> 00:41:46.465
that's like cosmos to eath

00:41:46.485 --> 00:41:48.907
boomer pipeline is is the

00:41:48.987 --> 00:41:52.447
same franchise european

00:41:52.487 --> 00:41:54.588
intellectuals after the first world war

00:41:55.673 --> 00:41:56.735
I get it.

00:41:56.894 --> 00:41:58.197
And I think, you know,

00:41:58.777 --> 00:42:00.039
I'm not the kind of person

00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:01.000
that's going to drink the

00:42:01.219 --> 00:42:02.201
straight up Kool-Aid from

00:42:02.240 --> 00:42:03.161
both ecosystems.

00:42:03.242 --> 00:42:04.864
I think they're like I have both.

00:42:05.003 --> 00:42:06.105
They both have great things about them.

00:42:06.324 --> 00:42:07.547
Right.

00:42:09.548 --> 00:42:12.090
I think that it's like, look,

00:42:12.152 --> 00:42:12.952
there's all these people on

00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:14.134
Twitter arguing about, like,

00:42:14.153 --> 00:42:15.155
who's the one true hub.

00:42:17.762 --> 00:42:18.422
if it was like,

00:42:18.461 --> 00:42:19.922
this is kind of a dumb question.

00:42:20.003 --> 00:42:21.384
If you're into the interchange,

00:42:21.403 --> 00:42:22.545
I think the,

00:42:22.625 --> 00:42:23.985
if there's going to be a one true hub,

00:42:24.726 --> 00:42:25.266
it's Ethereum.

00:42:25.407 --> 00:42:26.447
Ethereum is the settlement layer.

00:42:26.807 --> 00:42:27.789
Look at the fucking numbers.

00:42:28.248 --> 00:42:28.969
The numbers don't lie.

00:42:29.550 --> 00:42:29.789
You know,

00:42:29.949 --> 00:42:31.831
every fucking Cosmo chain is like

00:42:31.871 --> 00:42:32.592
basically poor.

00:42:33.211 --> 00:42:35.733
And, you know, like Ethereum,

00:42:35.974 --> 00:42:37.733
Just on liquidity alone,

00:42:38.394 --> 00:42:39.375
it's an obvious decision.

00:42:40.394 --> 00:42:42.755
But I also think it's more than that.

00:42:42.835 --> 00:42:44.096
A facetious retort to that

00:42:44.135 --> 00:42:45.436
would be that that's

00:42:45.476 --> 00:42:46.735
because all of the... I bet

00:42:46.775 --> 00:42:48.137
you I would be willing to

00:42:48.177 --> 00:42:50.056
bet money to someone,

00:42:50.856 --> 00:42:51.916
don't repeat this online,

00:42:53.318 --> 00:42:54.237
that there are certain

00:42:54.358 --> 00:42:55.398
Cosmos chains that are

00:42:55.438 --> 00:42:57.677
consumer chains that will

00:42:57.778 --> 00:43:03.059
not be consumer chains at some point.

00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:03.320
Oh, yeah.

00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:04.699
I'm not going to say which ones, obviously,

00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:04.840
but...

00:43:05.322 --> 00:43:06.103
I would totally agree with that.

00:43:06.123 --> 00:43:07.262
Yeah.

00:43:08.344 --> 00:43:09.264
We said that from the very beginning.

00:43:09.445 --> 00:43:12.626
Why would you raise funds to

00:43:12.646 --> 00:43:17.530
be part as a sub-chain of that?

00:43:17.570 --> 00:43:18.891
You're so tied to the

00:43:19.351 --> 00:43:20.211
overall success of an

00:43:20.291 --> 00:43:21.853
entity you have no control of.

00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:22.858
Right.

00:43:22.918 --> 00:43:24.300
Like it's very difficult.

00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.360
It'd be super bad if you did that to like,

00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:28.922
and there was some entity

00:43:28.942 --> 00:43:30.222
that was doing your settlement,

00:43:30.382 --> 00:43:31.422
like a lower level,

00:43:32.023 --> 00:43:34.384
and all of your state model

00:43:34.423 --> 00:43:35.885
was predicated on this

00:43:35.985 --> 00:43:37.405
higher level abstraction.

00:43:37.585 --> 00:43:42.947
It could be like an older network.

00:43:43.007 --> 00:43:45.168
I don't know what we call it.

00:43:45.188 --> 00:43:46.929
Something like Ethereum, possibly.

00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:48.699
Yeah.

00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:49.981
It's just like, you know,

00:43:50.061 --> 00:43:50.961
I'm tired of having this

00:43:51.342 --> 00:43:52.922
argument and it's a huge waste of time.

00:43:53.123 --> 00:43:54.063
It's a huge waste of time in

00:43:54.083 --> 00:43:55.563
this ecosystem because like

00:43:55.985 --> 00:43:56.965
people can't come together

00:43:57.005 --> 00:43:57.606
and collaborate.

00:43:57.826 --> 00:43:59.806
And really the main reason, like, okay,

00:44:00.007 --> 00:44:01.168
liquidity is one reason,

00:44:01.208 --> 00:44:02.989
but like the main reason

00:44:03.469 --> 00:44:05.210
I'm working in Ethereum now is like,

00:44:05.710 --> 00:44:06.650
there is a better culture.

00:44:08.251 --> 00:44:09.753
There are richer sets of ideas.

00:44:09.773 --> 00:44:10.954
There are people that have been... Like,

00:44:11.355 --> 00:44:14.077
everything in, like, Cosmos is just, like,

00:44:14.117 --> 00:44:15.900
a copy of shit that already was, like,

00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:16.961
innovated elsewhere.

00:44:17.443 --> 00:44:17.682
And, like,

00:44:17.742 --> 00:44:19.224
I think there's this culture of

00:44:19.284 --> 00:44:20.786
collaboration that exists

00:44:20.806 --> 00:44:22.268
there that just does not

00:44:22.389 --> 00:44:23.751
exist in the Cosmos, right?

00:44:24.070 --> 00:44:25.432
Cosmos is so PvP.

00:44:26.173 --> 00:44:26.653
It's, like...

00:44:27.474 --> 00:44:28.295
it's detrimental to

00:44:28.335 --> 00:44:29.375
everybody else right like

00:44:29.394 --> 00:44:30.976
they um but I really hope

00:44:30.996 --> 00:44:31.956
that changes it doesn't

00:44:31.996 --> 00:44:33.076
like it doesn't have to be

00:44:33.115 --> 00:44:34.856
this way right like but the

00:44:34.936 --> 00:44:36.077
economics make it that way

00:44:36.117 --> 00:44:37.177
because everyone's fighting

00:44:37.217 --> 00:44:38.137
to be the one true hub

00:44:38.338 --> 00:44:39.378
right whereas in ethereum

00:44:39.398 --> 00:44:40.418
they're like ah ethereum is

00:44:40.438 --> 00:44:41.797
good and we can launch our

00:44:41.838 --> 00:44:42.759
tokens but we all agree

00:44:42.778 --> 00:44:44.059
that ethereum is good you

00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.378
know um yeah it's like

00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.940
people there were like oh

00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.980
my gosh there's so much

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.440
drama between the lts and

00:44:51.460 --> 00:44:52.141
then they told me what it

00:44:52.181 --> 00:44:52.920
was and I was like

00:44:53.751 --> 00:44:55.932
You have no clue what drama is.

00:44:56.132 --> 00:44:58.472
Yeah.

00:44:59.833 --> 00:45:00.634
Which is not to say that

00:45:00.873 --> 00:45:02.094
everything is great.

00:45:02.253 --> 00:45:03.114
I think a lot of ways that

00:45:03.175 --> 00:45:04.014
Ethereum can learn from

00:45:04.074 --> 00:45:06.474
Cosmos and vice versa.

00:45:07.235 --> 00:45:09.916
I'm interested.

00:45:09.956 --> 00:45:11.036
What would be one thing that

00:45:11.056 --> 00:45:11.936
you would say that Ethereum

00:45:11.956 --> 00:45:14.677
could learn from Cosmos?

00:45:14.838 --> 00:45:19.159
I think the focus on interoperability is

00:45:21.094 --> 00:45:21.914
IBC.

00:45:21.954 --> 00:45:22.974
Very much, yes.

00:45:23.275 --> 00:45:23.635
IBC.

00:45:24.936 --> 00:45:26.115
The roll-up-centric version

00:45:26.155 --> 00:45:27.396
of Ethereum doesn't work if

00:45:27.416 --> 00:45:28.155
they don't have good

00:45:28.195 --> 00:45:29.536
interoperability between these things.

00:45:29.956 --> 00:45:30.137
Yeah.

00:45:30.317 --> 00:45:31.936
I mean, IBC would be... That would be it,

00:45:32.056 --> 00:45:32.237
right?

00:45:32.257 --> 00:45:35.498
That would be the true... IBC's great.

00:45:35.518 --> 00:45:37.217
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:45:38.358 --> 00:45:39.338
I think that it's already

00:45:39.398 --> 00:45:40.199
starting to happen,

00:45:41.498 --> 00:45:44.579
but that's another thing,

00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:46.059
another reason why I got into Ethereum,

00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.659
again, because...

00:45:49.001 --> 00:45:49.322
I don't know.

00:45:49.461 --> 00:45:51.384
I got Ethereum when it was

00:45:51.403 --> 00:45:54.146
like seven dollars and like

00:45:54.925 --> 00:45:55.827
didn't have to work a real

00:45:55.867 --> 00:45:56.867
job and could just work on

00:45:56.907 --> 00:45:58.429
my like startup for like

00:45:59.389 --> 00:46:01.170
years because of that.

00:46:01.271 --> 00:46:06.494
Like I think that the other

00:46:06.514 --> 00:46:08.155
great thing about Ethereum is just like

00:46:12.952 --> 00:46:14.733
yeah just just culture so it

00:46:14.773 --> 00:46:15.532
all comes down to culture

00:46:16.014 --> 00:46:17.534
like it's vibes right this

00:46:17.554 --> 00:46:19.576
is we we vibes technology

00:46:20.436 --> 00:46:21.737
is what we really need

00:46:22.237 --> 00:46:25.219
right yeah um and it's not

00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:26.259
to say that like vibes in

00:46:26.278 --> 00:46:27.400
ethereum are perfect right

00:46:27.460 --> 00:46:29.380
like there's a lot of

00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:30.221
people that are like oh

00:46:30.240 --> 00:46:31.541
ethereum's dead like people

00:46:31.621 --> 00:46:32.382
always say those kinds of

00:46:32.422 --> 00:46:34.483
things right but there's

00:46:34.543 --> 00:46:36.525
not the uh self-destructive

00:46:36.605 --> 00:46:38.485
like despair that I've

00:46:38.505 --> 00:46:42.527
become way too familiar with um like

00:46:44.246 --> 00:46:44.746
Yeah.

00:46:44.865 --> 00:46:45.485
And I probably have a lot

00:46:45.527 --> 00:46:48.568
more to say about that, but.

00:46:48.608 --> 00:46:48.788
All right.

00:46:48.807 --> 00:46:52.148
So next time we're gonna show us the demo.

00:46:52.168 --> 00:46:52.509
Yeah, totally.

00:46:52.528 --> 00:46:52.648
Okay.

00:46:52.668 --> 00:46:54.110
I'm just like,

00:46:54.309 --> 00:46:55.570
I'm being a perfectionist about it.

00:46:56.391 --> 00:46:57.431
Um, but I'll tell you what it will be.

00:46:58.210 --> 00:47:02.072
Um, you know, I think that AI is great.

00:47:02.632 --> 00:47:04.434
I'm like really stoked about AI.

00:47:04.753 --> 00:47:04.873
Um,

00:47:06.208 --> 00:47:08.548
But what's not great is who controls AI.

00:47:08.949 --> 00:47:09.909
This is the problem that I'm

00:47:09.949 --> 00:47:12.230
interested in exploring, right?

00:47:12.269 --> 00:47:13.369
What I don't want to happen

00:47:13.489 --> 00:47:14.911
is that we just all give

00:47:14.931 --> 00:47:16.170
away all our rights and all

00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:17.690
our data to big companies

00:47:17.731 --> 00:47:19.311
that won't pay us.

00:47:19.351 --> 00:47:20.851
That doesn't seem very great.

00:47:24.213 --> 00:47:26.112
Okay, I guess I can't do it.

00:47:26.152 --> 00:47:27.193
Just fucking showing up with

00:47:27.213 --> 00:47:28.072
this perfectionist bullshit.

00:47:28.092 --> 00:47:31.153
No, no, it's for me not to do it.

00:47:33.202 --> 00:47:33.443
But yeah,

00:47:33.523 --> 00:47:34.563
it's going to be a DAO-controlled

00:47:34.664 --> 00:47:35.164
AI agent,

00:47:35.405 --> 00:47:37.407
which means the DAO controls

00:47:37.487 --> 00:47:38.487
everything about that agent.

00:47:38.827 --> 00:47:41.090
It controls what is the system prompt,

00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:42.692
what are the various different parameters,

00:47:42.731 --> 00:47:44.313
like top N and top K and

00:47:44.333 --> 00:47:45.733
all that shit that you don't understand.

00:47:46.494 --> 00:47:48.036
What are the, like,

00:47:48.097 --> 00:47:49.677
which model is it supposed to use?

00:47:49.717 --> 00:47:50.838
Is it supposed to use O-Lama

00:47:50.858 --> 00:47:53.541
three point one or is it, you know,

00:47:53.561 --> 00:47:54.702
who's allowed to run it?

00:47:55.182 --> 00:47:56.422
which operators are allowed

00:47:56.463 --> 00:47:58.143
to run this this this thing

00:47:58.284 --> 00:47:59.304
it's maybe that anyone is

00:47:59.344 --> 00:47:59.963
allowed to run it and they

00:47:59.983 --> 00:48:01.063
can just run it themselves

00:48:01.085 --> 00:48:01.985
and submit the result and

00:48:02.025 --> 00:48:02.824
sign it with their own key

00:48:02.844 --> 00:48:05.545
right that's cool but we

00:48:05.565 --> 00:48:06.405
might have professional

00:48:06.485 --> 00:48:07.646
operators and that's why I

00:48:07.686 --> 00:48:08.846
came on the show to recruit

00:48:08.885 --> 00:48:09.786
a bunch of professional

00:48:09.887 --> 00:48:10.867
operators that want to like

00:48:10.907 --> 00:48:14.547
work on some like next gen cool tech with

00:48:15.494 --> 00:48:16.596
People that don't want to

00:48:16.635 --> 00:48:17.456
just keep doing the same

00:48:17.476 --> 00:48:18.257
thing we've been doing over

00:48:18.277 --> 00:48:18.737
and over again?

00:48:19.197 --> 00:48:20.097
All those are good reasons,

00:48:20.157 --> 00:48:20.938
but the biggest one would

00:48:20.958 --> 00:48:21.958
be what data can be

00:48:22.018 --> 00:48:24.201
actually sucked into the model, right?

00:48:24.221 --> 00:48:25.101
So that's probably the

00:48:25.141 --> 00:48:26.202
biggest one from the DAO, right?

00:48:26.242 --> 00:48:27.543
It's to say what sources are

00:48:27.563 --> 00:48:28.364
we allowed to be able to

00:48:28.423 --> 00:48:29.284
pull from and what sources

00:48:29.304 --> 00:48:31.326
are we going to agree that

00:48:31.425 --> 00:48:33.266
are public domain and or similar to that.

00:48:33.306 --> 00:48:33.947
I'm guessing it's probably

00:48:33.967 --> 00:48:34.427
the biggest one.

00:48:37.612 --> 00:48:38.594
Yeah, I mean,

00:48:38.634 --> 00:48:39.855
there's a million demos to make,

00:48:40.295 --> 00:48:41.036
but we just have, like,

00:48:41.195 --> 00:48:44.217
a general WebAssembly

00:48:44.438 --> 00:48:45.778
computation environment, right?

00:48:45.798 --> 00:48:45.878
So,

00:48:45.898 --> 00:48:47.740
we basically have a WebAssembly runtime.

00:48:48.240 --> 00:48:48.481
Yeah.

00:48:49.061 --> 00:48:51.923
And in both the browser and then also in,

00:48:51.963 --> 00:48:52.103
like,

00:48:52.143 --> 00:48:53.844
a node format for people like yourself,

00:48:53.945 --> 00:48:54.164
right,

00:48:55.365 --> 00:48:56.666
we have a registry of all the

00:48:56.686 --> 00:48:57.588
different walls and blobs.

00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:01.771
And you can launch these

00:49:01.891 --> 00:49:03.112
actively validated services.

00:49:04.913 --> 00:49:05.793
I know this is a lot of shit.

00:49:06.032 --> 00:49:06.733
I should have brought my sluts,

00:49:06.833 --> 00:49:09.134
but whatever.

00:49:09.173 --> 00:49:09.713
You can launch these

00:49:09.793 --> 00:49:12.594
actively validated services that might be,

00:49:12.635 --> 00:49:14.474
like, on this machine,

00:49:14.916 --> 00:49:17.056
we have a GPU of this type,

00:49:17.356 --> 00:49:19.737
and we are running these AI models,

00:49:20.916 --> 00:49:21.016
right?

00:49:21.097 --> 00:49:21.996
And then people can write

00:49:22.317 --> 00:49:23.577
these Wasm components,

00:49:24.038 --> 00:49:25.177
give them a security policy,

00:49:25.197 --> 00:49:25.838
and they just can

00:49:25.918 --> 00:49:26.918
automatically start running

00:49:26.978 --> 00:49:28.358
almost like smart contracts, right?

00:49:31.891 --> 00:49:32.713
So if you've been running,

00:49:32.853 --> 00:49:33.974
I can lay your stuff, um,

00:49:34.014 --> 00:49:35.355
which I encourage everyone

00:49:35.394 --> 00:49:37.137
who listens to this show to do because,

00:49:37.157 --> 00:49:39.579
uh, well,

00:49:39.619 --> 00:49:40.400
that's what we're going to be

00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:42.481
working with at the lowest level.

00:49:43.161 --> 00:49:45.344
Uh, but we hope to make it better.

00:49:45.364 --> 00:49:46.445
I'd be also interested in

00:49:46.505 --> 00:49:47.585
hearing people's complaints

00:49:47.606 --> 00:49:48.726
about running infrastructure.

00:49:49.067 --> 00:49:50.188
Um, that's why I love looking,

00:49:50.208 --> 00:49:51.228
listening to your guys show

00:49:51.309 --> 00:49:51.969
is like listening to you

00:49:51.989 --> 00:49:52.751
guys complain all the time.

00:49:52.791 --> 00:49:54.572
It's really, it's really fun.

00:49:54.992 --> 00:49:56.333
It's mostly the free, honestly.

00:50:01.302 --> 00:50:02.423
I live in a wet, cold place.

00:50:02.443 --> 00:50:03.385
We're complaining people.

00:50:03.684 --> 00:50:05.326
We're complaining people.

00:50:05.445 --> 00:50:08.208
If I lived somewhere fucking sunny,

00:50:08.228 --> 00:50:11.050
what would there be to complain about?

00:50:11.990 --> 00:50:14.052
Did you talk to Borg

00:50:14.072 --> 00:50:15.152
Maximalist about you

00:50:15.313 --> 00:50:16.233
exiting the Juno set?

00:50:16.253 --> 00:50:23.318
I mean, the charter got disbanded.

00:50:23.418 --> 00:50:24.099
I got kicked out.

00:50:26.351 --> 00:50:27.773
So, Carter was great.

00:50:27.833 --> 00:50:28.773
You all just, you know,

00:50:28.793 --> 00:50:29.873
I think... You exited the

00:50:29.914 --> 00:50:32.295
judo set a long time before any of us.

00:50:32.315 --> 00:50:32.795
Yeah, I know.

00:50:32.856 --> 00:50:37.557
It's like... It's different, right?

00:50:37.637 --> 00:50:38.639
It's weird.

00:50:38.739 --> 00:50:39.539
I mean, it makes me sad.

00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:42.320
Maybe at some point, Juno could just,

00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:42.561
like...

00:50:43.253 --> 00:50:44.875
use better technology and

00:50:44.954 --> 00:50:46.175
try the experiment again

00:50:46.217 --> 00:50:47.878
and maybe not have a

00:50:47.938 --> 00:50:49.159
massive bug in the airdrop

00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.460
or whatever and just fix some things.

00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:53.282
It doesn't take much to destroy, does it?

00:50:53.583 --> 00:50:55.023
I mean,

00:50:55.043 --> 00:50:56.905
the thing to do again would just be

00:50:56.965 --> 00:51:02.329
to have a permissionless

00:51:04.010 --> 00:51:06.373
execution environment

00:51:08.951 --> 00:51:15.172
that is not tied to a speculative asset.

00:51:15.472 --> 00:51:19.414
How you do a compute

00:51:19.434 --> 00:51:20.713
environment that can verify

00:51:20.733 --> 00:51:21.713
and run things.

00:51:21.733 --> 00:51:23.775
I mean, we have containerization.

00:51:23.815 --> 00:51:26.115
This is a very astonishingly

00:51:26.195 --> 00:51:28.275
solved problem at the low level.

00:51:28.596 --> 00:51:29.896
The scheduling is hard.

00:51:30.016 --> 00:51:31.916
The execution is hard.

00:51:31.976 --> 00:51:33.197
The distribution is hard.

00:51:33.356 --> 00:51:35.217
The uptime and latency are hard.

00:51:36.980 --> 00:51:39.199
These are all highly complex

00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:42.081
problems for networking engineers.

00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.541
But the fundamental problem

00:51:44.581 --> 00:51:45.742
with Juno was economic.

00:51:47.822 --> 00:51:49.282
And the lower level problem

00:51:49.302 --> 00:51:50.402
with Juno is Tendermint.

00:51:52.163 --> 00:51:53.762
I think the problem with Juno was, yeah,

00:51:53.782 --> 00:51:55.603
it was built with the Cosmos SDK.

00:51:56.704 --> 00:51:58.844
And it innovated for a time.

00:51:59.423 --> 00:52:01.465
And then there were a series of...

00:52:02.501 --> 00:52:03.842
unfortunate circumstances.

00:52:04.023 --> 00:52:05.304
And, you know, I think honestly,

00:52:05.364 --> 00:52:06.844
if it was just one of those unfortunate,

00:52:06.864 --> 00:52:07.826
like if it was just prop,

00:52:08.005 --> 00:52:09.146
we would've been fine.

00:52:10.128 --> 00:52:12.449
It was prop followed by Tara crash.

00:52:13.427 --> 00:52:15.869
followed by a very fucking long drawdown,

00:52:16.130 --> 00:52:17.572
followed by a fucking SBF,

00:52:17.612 --> 00:52:18.793
followed by a horrible,

00:52:18.932 --> 00:52:21.235
and we were in a VC chain.

00:52:21.536 --> 00:52:23.237
We had no fucking money to pay people.

00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:26.681
And when we lost Reese,

00:52:27.021 --> 00:52:28.724
that's when it was over for me.

00:52:28.744 --> 00:52:29.684
I was like, well,

00:52:30.106 --> 00:52:31.047
we have no ability to

00:52:31.327 --> 00:52:32.547
actually innovate or do anything.

00:52:33.128 --> 00:52:35.351
People will complain if we pay people.

00:52:36.512 --> 00:52:37.695
I just want to go do cool shit.

00:52:37.974 --> 00:52:41.139
And, you know, if there's a Juno to,

00:52:41.278 --> 00:52:41.438
you know,

00:52:41.458 --> 00:52:42.581
people using open source

00:52:42.601 --> 00:52:45.503
software to do whatever, like, you know,

00:52:46.284 --> 00:52:48.166
who knows?

00:52:48.226 --> 00:52:48.427
Yeah.

00:52:48.487 --> 00:52:49.869
Romer says Juno's problem is

00:52:49.949 --> 00:52:51.150
socialist led to economic.

00:52:51.231 --> 00:52:51.851
I totally disagree.

00:52:51.871 --> 00:52:52.492
There's the other way.

00:52:53.228 --> 00:52:54.208
yeah I was gonna say exactly

00:52:54.228 --> 00:52:55.528
it was the other way it was

00:52:55.588 --> 00:52:56.690
economic which led to

00:52:56.730 --> 00:52:58.409
social it was such a bad

00:52:58.891 --> 00:53:00.110
unfortunate series of

00:53:00.150 --> 00:53:01.891
events and then once it

00:53:01.911 --> 00:53:03.972
started going down then the

00:53:04.032 --> 00:53:05.454
fervor really started and

00:53:05.494 --> 00:53:07.054
then that's where people

00:53:07.074 --> 00:53:07.994
are just fucking clawed

00:53:08.014 --> 00:53:09.135
each other right like

00:53:09.175 --> 00:53:10.235
that's what happened and

00:53:10.255 --> 00:53:11.076
that's when people started

00:53:11.115 --> 00:53:12.056
really playing the blame

00:53:12.077 --> 00:53:13.056
game and looking like who

00:53:13.077 --> 00:53:15.277
to blame yeah right and the

00:53:15.318 --> 00:53:16.219
reality was like

00:53:17.570 --> 00:53:19.072
there was no culprit that was like,

00:53:19.253 --> 00:53:20.673
one hundred percent responsible.

00:53:21.034 --> 00:53:21.175
Yeah.

00:53:21.215 --> 00:53:24.918
Like, and some things were just like, like,

00:53:24.938 --> 00:53:25.818
I mean, look at Do Kwon.

00:53:25.838 --> 00:53:26.940
Like, obviously, he did some, like,

00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:27.820
bad things.

00:53:27.860 --> 00:53:28.541
I don't think he should be

00:53:28.601 --> 00:53:29.483
in prison or whatever,

00:53:29.543 --> 00:53:30.603
but that's my personal belief.

00:53:32.326 --> 00:53:34.208
They should lose, like, get sued a lot.

00:53:35.108 --> 00:53:36.971
But, like, you know, even a lot of,

00:53:36.990 --> 00:53:37.731
so much of that was, like,

00:53:37.972 --> 00:53:38.853
out of his control, right?

00:53:38.873 --> 00:53:40.293
Like, kind of basically got, like,

00:53:40.333 --> 00:53:40.934
attacked and

00:53:43.293 --> 00:53:44.974
yeah it's just like so much

00:53:45.034 --> 00:53:46.275
is like out of our control

00:53:46.496 --> 00:53:48.438
right and it's just

00:53:48.478 --> 00:53:49.498
unfortunate I really do

00:53:49.518 --> 00:53:50.780
think if it was just prop

00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:52.400
succeed I think I think we

00:53:52.420 --> 00:53:53.661
would have actually managed

00:53:53.681 --> 00:53:55.043
to get through that yeah

00:53:55.103 --> 00:53:58.045
but it was a lot of punches

00:53:58.166 --> 00:54:00.067
and eventually with each

00:54:00.126 --> 00:54:01.628
punch it just got like you

00:54:01.648 --> 00:54:06.572
know yeah but yeah I agree

00:54:06.592 --> 00:54:09.835
third time's a charm speaking of uh um

00:54:10.692 --> 00:54:12.693
situations of economic

00:54:13.153 --> 00:54:15.215
despair and then leading to catfights.

00:54:15.235 --> 00:54:16.775
Should we talk about this AA DAO thing?

00:54:18.416 --> 00:54:18.996
Oh, yeah.

00:54:19.016 --> 00:54:19.556
There's some fucking

00:54:19.597 --> 00:54:20.757
parallels with this shit.

00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:23.800
Actually, I do have a topic.

00:54:23.980 --> 00:54:24.981
I don't know if guests are

00:54:25.001 --> 00:54:26.021
allowed to create topics.

00:54:26.222 --> 00:54:26.442
Sure.

00:54:28.402 --> 00:54:29.362
And I'm really trying to...

00:54:29.483 --> 00:54:33.226
You guys run a lot of nodes

00:54:33.326 --> 00:54:34.447
on a bunch of different blockchains.

00:54:34.987 --> 00:54:35.807
Who does that well?

00:54:36.128 --> 00:54:37.929
Which nodes are the easiest to run?

00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:39.030
Thinking about things

00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.612
like... Which ecosystem has

00:54:41.652 --> 00:54:42.353
thought the most about

00:54:42.393 --> 00:54:43.594
things like archives,

00:54:44.195 --> 00:54:45.635
the UX of running nodes?

00:54:46.717 --> 00:54:48.818
Who has the best UX for running nodes?

00:54:48.978 --> 00:54:50.000
And where do you think

00:54:50.019 --> 00:54:50.800
things could improve?

00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:53.661
I hear you come on the show

00:54:53.722 --> 00:54:55.103
all the time and just like

00:54:55.342 --> 00:54:56.664
complain a lot about how

00:54:56.724 --> 00:54:58.304
shitty how shitty it is and

00:54:58.344 --> 00:54:59.644
I know it's shitty but I'd

00:54:59.664 --> 00:55:00.425
love to hear you guys rant

00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:01.927
a little bit and like you

00:55:01.967 --> 00:55:02.766
run a bunch of nodes for a

00:55:02.786 --> 00:55:03.568
bunch of different chains

00:55:04.007 --> 00:55:05.608
who's doing it the best like

00:55:06.456 --> 00:55:07.858
Where are some areas where

00:55:07.878 --> 00:55:08.797
you'd like to see improvement?

00:55:09.177 --> 00:55:09.699
That's my one question.

00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:12.360
So when you talk about running nodes,

00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:13.300
are you talking about from

00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:14.820
the perspective of a validator,

00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:16.242
a service provider?

00:55:16.262 --> 00:55:18.682
From the perspective of a validator, yeah,

00:55:18.722 --> 00:55:19.304
the whole shebang.

00:55:19.784 --> 00:55:20.603
You might also be running

00:55:20.643 --> 00:55:22.364
some nodes that are not just validators,

00:55:22.405 --> 00:55:22.565
right?

00:55:22.585 --> 00:55:24.465
Yeah.

00:55:24.485 --> 00:55:26.246
Like an archive node is not a validator,

00:55:27.427 --> 00:55:28.427
and you don't get paid to run it,

00:55:28.447 --> 00:55:29.188
which is why people don't

00:55:29.228 --> 00:55:29.949
run archive nodes.

00:55:29.989 --> 00:55:31.050
But what if you get paid to

00:55:31.070 --> 00:55:31.710
run archive nodes?

00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:32.530
I don't know.

00:55:32.570 --> 00:55:32.751
Well,

00:55:32.811 --> 00:55:34.351
people that run archive nodes do get

00:55:34.391 --> 00:55:35.371
paid to run them.

00:55:36.047 --> 00:55:37.307
Like on any network that has

00:55:37.327 --> 00:55:39.130
an actual functional archive node,

00:55:39.150 --> 00:55:40.110
somebody is being paid.

00:55:40.690 --> 00:55:41.231
Some of them on the show.

00:55:41.251 --> 00:55:44.893
A hundred percent.

00:55:45.614 --> 00:55:46.755
Well, it's also a balance.

00:55:46.876 --> 00:55:47.836
It's a dirty secret, isn't it?

00:55:47.856 --> 00:55:49.097
It's a dirty secret behind blockchains.

00:55:49.117 --> 00:55:49.597
It's like, oh,

00:55:49.617 --> 00:55:50.778
the validator set will be

00:55:50.818 --> 00:55:52.900
paid with their commissions and yada,

00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:53.380
yada, yada.

00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:54.541
But like a lot of the actual

00:55:54.581 --> 00:55:55.762
like super core infrastructure,

00:55:55.782 --> 00:55:57.324
like archives and whatnot,

00:55:57.344 --> 00:56:00.226
is resolved in US dollars somewhere.

00:56:00.867 --> 00:56:01.547
Because there are servers

00:56:01.568 --> 00:56:02.268
that need to be bought.

00:56:02.288 --> 00:56:03.128
There are contracts that

00:56:03.148 --> 00:56:03.648
need to be written.

00:56:03.668 --> 00:56:04.769
There are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:56:05.291 --> 00:56:05.471
And...

00:56:09.487 --> 00:56:09.907
Also, Jake,

00:56:09.927 --> 00:56:12.152
I think it's a balance of other aspects,

00:56:12.172 --> 00:56:14.456
too, because easiest... I mean,

00:56:14.958 --> 00:56:16.179
Ethereum notes for us are

00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:17.963
the least amount of shit that we touch.

00:56:18.123 --> 00:56:19.065
Like, fucking...

00:56:20.106 --> 00:56:21.567
Very rarely do you have a hard fork.

00:56:22.746 --> 00:56:23.847
Node upgrades are easy.

00:56:23.907 --> 00:56:25.347
That's slow blockchain.

00:56:25.608 --> 00:56:26.989
Like the space is annoying,

00:56:27.028 --> 00:56:28.650
but it's really like hands off.

00:56:28.690 --> 00:56:29.909
Like it's extremely stable.

00:56:29.949 --> 00:56:31.130
Like, but again,

00:56:31.170 --> 00:56:32.451
but you're at twelve second blocks,

00:56:32.652 --> 00:56:32.851
right?

00:56:33.271 --> 00:56:34.291
So if you look at go the

00:56:34.311 --> 00:56:35.432
other way and look at Aptos,

00:56:35.472 --> 00:56:36.913
Aptos is thirty three

00:56:36.932 --> 00:56:38.414
hundred milliseconds or whatever.

00:56:40.715 --> 00:56:42.715
has no hard forks like it

00:56:42.755 --> 00:56:43.675
requires a really high

00:56:43.715 --> 00:56:45.516
amount of of monitoring and

00:56:45.576 --> 00:56:46.836
also speed so like it's

00:56:46.876 --> 00:56:48.637
always a balance right so I

00:56:48.657 --> 00:56:49.117
don't know if there's

00:56:49.157 --> 00:56:50.677
anything to say like this

00:56:50.737 --> 00:56:52.398
is a good balance of both

00:56:52.418 --> 00:56:53.197
those situations I don't

00:56:53.318 --> 00:56:55.938
think nothing's for free um

00:56:55.998 --> 00:56:56.699
I know what I know what the

00:56:56.759 --> 00:56:57.880
worst ones are like that

00:56:57.940 --> 00:56:58.679
one's easier to fucking

00:56:58.699 --> 00:57:01.081
talk about I mean I mean it

00:57:01.121 --> 00:57:02.360
might be I think the better

00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:03.880
question like at the risk

00:57:03.940 --> 00:57:05.661
of playing semantics right is

00:57:06.590 --> 00:57:08.871
it's not about what's easy.

00:57:08.891 --> 00:57:11.050
It's about what's, what's simple to run.

00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:12.492
Cause that kind of covers off the,

00:57:13.952 --> 00:57:15.632
the points that you serve as making,

00:57:15.693 --> 00:57:15.853
right.

00:57:15.873 --> 00:57:16.373
There's a,

00:57:16.393 --> 00:57:17.612
there's a variety of different

00:57:17.992 --> 00:57:19.012
components to it.

00:57:20.434 --> 00:57:25.815
Like easy, easy simply means like to hand,

00:57:26.215 --> 00:57:26.496
right.

00:57:26.996 --> 00:57:30.356
It means, it means close at hand.

00:57:30.376 --> 00:57:31.556
Simple means on easy.

00:57:35.210 --> 00:57:37.773
Well, simplex, it means single, right?

00:57:37.833 --> 00:57:39.813
It means uninterwoven.

00:57:40.675 --> 00:57:41.916
And so the question is,

00:57:44.177 --> 00:57:45.577
are you asking the question

00:57:45.697 --> 00:57:46.778
because you're wondering

00:57:46.838 --> 00:57:48.380
about who the audience is

00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:49.541
that can run the thing?

00:57:50.581 --> 00:57:51.101
In which case,

00:57:51.121 --> 00:57:52.623
the question you're probably

00:57:52.702 --> 00:57:54.885
more asking is because you

00:57:54.905 --> 00:57:56.206
can make something very, very easy.

00:57:56.505 --> 00:57:58.447
You can put a pencil next to

00:57:58.487 --> 00:57:59.407
somebody's desk and they

00:57:59.427 --> 00:58:00.429
will use the pencil.

00:58:02.992 --> 00:58:04.733
because it's both a simple

00:58:04.753 --> 00:58:06.474
tool and it's a very easy tool.

00:58:06.994 --> 00:58:08.494
You can give somebody a

00:58:08.554 --> 00:58:10.614
mobile phone next to their

00:58:10.635 --> 00:58:13.675
desk and they will use it because it is,

00:58:13.876 --> 00:58:15.275
again, a very, very easy tool.

00:58:15.335 --> 00:58:16.376
It's not a very simple tool

00:58:16.456 --> 00:58:17.257
and their data is being

00:58:17.297 --> 00:58:19.018
harvested by someone and blah, blah, blah,

00:58:19.038 --> 00:58:20.077
blah, blah, all the other problems,

00:58:20.117 --> 00:58:20.297
right?

00:58:20.777 --> 00:58:22.798
The problem is that actually like in,

00:58:22.998 --> 00:58:24.559
in the guise of an easy tool,

00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:25.940
it is not a simple tool and

00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:27.041
there's a lot of interwoven

00:58:27.101 --> 00:58:27.760
factors in it.

00:58:28.300 --> 00:58:29.922
And that that's the question

00:58:29.981 --> 00:58:30.742
I think that you need to

00:58:30.762 --> 00:58:33.422
make in terms of like who the audience is,

00:58:33.463 --> 00:58:35.923
is actually going to be

00:58:35.943 --> 00:58:36.965
doing this thing and what

00:58:37.324 --> 00:58:38.704
their expectations should

00:58:38.744 --> 00:58:40.606
be on what they're interacting with.

00:58:40.646 --> 00:58:41.387
Two audiences.

00:58:41.407 --> 00:58:42.007
Okay.

00:58:42.166 --> 00:58:44.527
Like the first is, well,

00:58:44.547 --> 00:58:46.409
it's a web assembly browser bundle,

00:58:46.548 --> 00:58:46.789
right?

00:58:46.829 --> 00:58:48.528
It's a web assembly blob.

00:58:48.670 --> 00:58:49.550
You can run it anywhere, right?

00:58:50.492 --> 00:58:51.976
And so like that first

00:58:52.036 --> 00:58:53.161
audience is people running

00:58:53.201 --> 00:58:54.043
shit and they don't even know.

00:58:54.063 --> 00:58:54.947
Right.

00:58:56.101 --> 00:58:57.302
They're just like, hey,

00:58:57.362 --> 00:58:58.742
I want to interact with this front end.

00:58:58.902 --> 00:58:59.922
And it just so happens that

00:58:59.943 --> 00:59:01.063
that front end also has a

00:59:01.103 --> 00:59:02.284
ZK circuit in it that

00:59:02.304 --> 00:59:04.425
allows you to generate some proof, right?

00:59:04.885 --> 00:59:05.664
And that when they click the

00:59:05.704 --> 00:59:06.726
button to do the thing,

00:59:07.025 --> 00:59:07.626
it's going to use that

00:59:07.666 --> 00:59:09.427
wasn't blob to do the thing, right?

00:59:10.106 --> 00:59:11.248
And maybe you could even

00:59:11.268 --> 00:59:12.409
have something like it's

00:59:12.449 --> 00:59:13.869
kind of akin to an Oracle

00:59:13.949 --> 00:59:16.230
where people in their

00:59:16.269 --> 00:59:18.411
browser are like basically

00:59:18.811 --> 00:59:19.672
fetching some data

00:59:19.711 --> 00:59:21.793
themselves and then like signing it.

00:59:22.193 --> 00:59:23.313
being like I was on the app

00:59:23.333 --> 00:59:24.454
at this time and I'm just

00:59:24.474 --> 00:59:25.356
like performing this

00:59:25.396 --> 00:59:26.056
service and putting

00:59:26.117 --> 00:59:27.097
signatures on to like

00:59:27.137 --> 00:59:28.398
verify some like off-chain

00:59:28.418 --> 00:59:31.222
thing um that's category

00:59:31.342 --> 00:59:32.402
one the category two is

00:59:32.443 --> 00:59:33.423
professional operators

00:59:33.463 --> 00:59:34.043
right because not

00:59:34.123 --> 00:59:35.585
everything for hardware

00:59:35.865 --> 00:59:37.668
reasons is going to be in

00:59:37.708 --> 00:59:39.088
that kind of like oh you

00:59:39.108 --> 00:59:40.030
just run it on your phone

00:59:40.050 --> 00:59:41.510
or your desktop right some

00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:42.472
of these ek proofs like

00:59:42.492 --> 00:59:43.452
let's say you have to prove

00:59:43.492 --> 00:59:45.355
an entire ethereum block or

00:59:45.534 --> 00:59:47.376
like multiple blocks right like

00:59:48.702 --> 00:59:50.143
You're going to need some serious hardware,

00:59:50.184 --> 00:59:50.425
right?

00:59:50.505 --> 00:59:51.065
Like you're going to need

00:59:51.085 --> 00:59:53.487
professional operators.

00:59:53.507 --> 00:59:55.628
So we have these two kind of contexts,

00:59:55.648 --> 00:59:55.869
right?

00:59:55.929 --> 00:59:57.550
Like people like running

00:59:57.590 --> 00:59:59.213
stuff in their browser or

00:59:59.253 --> 01:00:00.934
like on some desktop

01:00:00.974 --> 01:00:02.355
application and it's just

01:00:02.396 --> 01:00:03.155
made easy for them,

01:00:03.496 --> 01:00:04.918
but they have consumer devices, right?

01:00:05.778 --> 01:00:06.719
And then professional

01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:07.639
operators that are going to

01:00:07.659 --> 01:00:09.681
be using professional like hardware.

01:00:09.702 --> 01:00:09.782
Yeah.

01:00:15.240 --> 01:00:16.081
I mean, those are good contexts.

01:00:16.101 --> 01:00:16.842
But I would love to hear

01:00:16.862 --> 01:00:17.684
from the professionals,

01:00:17.704 --> 01:00:18.864
because let's not worry

01:00:18.885 --> 01:00:19.726
about the first one,

01:00:19.746 --> 01:00:21.106
because you guys are the

01:00:21.146 --> 01:00:23.028
professionals with the good hardware.

01:00:23.068 --> 01:00:24.891
So go ahead.

01:00:24.931 --> 01:00:28.353
No, go ahead.

01:00:28.373 --> 01:00:29.755
I was going to say, I think that, honestly,

01:00:30.235 --> 01:00:32.077
Solana might be the easiest one for me.

01:00:32.538 --> 01:00:33.619
It takes a bit to get up and

01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:34.500
understanding.

01:00:34.659 --> 01:00:35.460
Machines are huge,

01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:37.762
but you're literally running one command.

01:00:38.496 --> 01:00:38.916
Um,

01:00:38.976 --> 01:00:40.177
and even if you don't put a monitor or

01:00:40.197 --> 01:00:41.856
anything, it basically just runs.

01:00:42.637 --> 01:00:45.219
Um, near is quite easy to run,

01:00:45.298 --> 01:00:46.579
but it takes quite a bit of

01:00:46.739 --> 01:00:48.559
time to like read through

01:00:48.579 --> 01:00:50.360
the docs and actually get going.

01:00:50.380 --> 01:00:53.422
But once it's going, it's just going, um,

01:00:53.501 --> 01:00:54.422
I'd say app host is kind of,

01:00:54.442 --> 01:00:56.922
but Solana is one command.

01:00:56.943 --> 01:00:58.003
Solana is literally one command.

01:00:58.824 --> 01:00:59.563
What is configuration?

01:00:59.583 --> 01:01:01.644
Like, do you have to like put in like, see,

01:01:01.684 --> 01:01:03.164
like is it's just like

01:01:03.465 --> 01:01:04.585
configuration and one command.

01:01:05.757 --> 01:01:07.318
Command line arguments, mostly.

01:01:07.498 --> 01:01:09.219
Lots of command line arguments, yeah.

01:01:09.981 --> 01:01:11.382
But you start off, like,

01:01:11.402 --> 01:01:13.182
they give you basically the

01:01:13.222 --> 01:01:14.623
full flushed out arguments

01:01:14.643 --> 01:01:15.224
within the docs.

01:01:15.264 --> 01:01:15.963
They're basically just like

01:01:16.003 --> 01:01:16.965
copy and paste this and it'll go.

01:01:16.985 --> 01:01:17.144
Right?

01:01:17.164 --> 01:01:19.146
So run one command to

01:01:19.166 --> 01:01:20.666
install the Solana binary.

01:01:21.126 --> 01:01:22.367
Run the second command to actually run it.

01:01:22.387 --> 01:01:25.429
And that's basically it.

01:01:25.449 --> 01:01:26.871
Which I consider deeply simple.

01:01:26.990 --> 01:01:27.351
Even if, like,

01:01:27.371 --> 01:01:28.172
you don't quite understand it,

01:01:28.211 --> 01:01:28.831
at least it's running.

01:01:28.851 --> 01:01:29.773
Yeah.

01:01:29.833 --> 01:01:31.052
And you can play with it from that point.

01:01:32.074 --> 01:01:34.375
Am I allowed to ask a follow-up question,

01:01:34.414 --> 01:01:34.556
though?

01:01:34.576 --> 01:01:35.036
Because, like...

01:01:37.054 --> 01:01:38.295
Oftentimes, you know, like,

01:01:38.355 --> 01:01:39.635
some chains have oracles, right?

01:01:39.655 --> 01:01:40.036
And you have, like,

01:01:40.056 --> 01:01:43.297
this side process that you've had to run.

01:01:43.376 --> 01:01:44.358
Like, oh,

01:01:44.478 --> 01:01:46.079
I don't just have to run my validator.

01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:47.498
I have to run this other thing.

01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:49.340
What has your experience

01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:50.280
been like with that?

01:01:50.661 --> 01:01:52.282
Like, I'll take the bad and the good,

01:01:52.442 --> 01:01:53.202
if there is any good.

01:01:56.257 --> 01:01:57.498
It depends on the side process.

01:01:57.699 --> 01:01:58.800
So like we're doing a lot

01:01:58.840 --> 01:01:59.840
with like skip connect.

01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:01.802
And so connect right now

01:02:01.842 --> 01:02:02.762
it's one per chain.

01:02:03.262 --> 01:02:04.324
We run multiple nodes.

01:02:04.364 --> 01:02:05.605
It communicates with skip

01:02:05.644 --> 01:02:06.806
and then that's all in vote

01:02:06.826 --> 01:02:07.927
extensions and all that kind of stuff,

01:02:07.947 --> 01:02:08.887
which has been pretty easy.

01:02:08.927 --> 01:02:09.768
It's like straightforward.

01:02:09.788 --> 01:02:10.588
Like there's a config,

01:02:10.849 --> 01:02:12.150
although there's a learning curve to it.

01:02:12.230 --> 01:02:13.530
Like people don't really understand,

01:02:13.570 --> 01:02:14.351
initially understand how it

01:02:14.391 --> 01:02:15.632
works and the vote

01:02:15.672 --> 01:02:16.793
extension piece and how to

01:02:16.893 --> 01:02:17.775
monitor it and management.

01:02:17.974 --> 01:02:19.016
But, but again, that's out there.

01:02:19.916 --> 01:02:20.797
Things like the UMI,

01:02:20.836 --> 01:02:21.498
and what was that before?

01:02:21.518 --> 01:02:22.217
Was it Kujira?

01:02:22.498 --> 01:02:23.880
What was the price feeder before UMI?

01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:25.041
Kujira, Terra.

01:02:25.081 --> 01:02:26.461
Kujira, UMA, Say.

01:02:26.561 --> 01:02:28.664
That thing's a piece of sh... Anyway,

01:02:28.684 --> 01:02:30.184
that thing's... It's just a pain.

01:02:30.204 --> 01:02:30.344
Like,

01:02:30.364 --> 01:02:31.585
it'll just lose... A lot of those are

01:02:31.626 --> 01:02:33.068
the same price feeder, weren't they?

01:02:33.128 --> 01:02:34.009
It's all the same price...

01:02:34.028 --> 01:02:34.668
And all that is is... It's

01:02:34.688 --> 01:02:36.210
a whole piece of technology, yeah.

01:02:36.431 --> 01:02:36.550
Yeah,

01:02:36.610 --> 01:02:38.893
and all it is is every bell hitting

01:02:38.913 --> 01:02:39.954
the same endpoints because

01:02:40.634 --> 01:02:41.735
those are hard-coded endpoints.

01:02:41.755 --> 01:02:42.275
So everybody's hitting the

01:02:42.315 --> 01:02:43.197
same Binance API.

01:02:43.217 --> 01:02:43.817
Who gives a shit?

01:02:43.836 --> 01:02:44.557
That's fucking stupid.

01:02:45.193 --> 01:02:46.594
So yeah, that's very stupid.

01:02:46.875 --> 01:02:48.014
It's stupid, like they're all hitting.

01:02:48.054 --> 01:02:48.394
There's no,

01:02:48.434 --> 01:02:50.295
there's no some of those like skip.

01:02:50.315 --> 01:02:51.596
You can you were controlling it.

01:02:51.615 --> 01:02:52.356
There's multiple different

01:02:52.396 --> 01:02:53.257
endpoints and you have you

01:02:53.277 --> 01:02:54.036
have some visibility of that,

01:02:54.056 --> 01:02:55.257
but like those other ones

01:02:55.577 --> 01:02:56.097
you're just hitting the

01:02:56.117 --> 01:02:57.179
same API because you're

01:02:57.219 --> 01:02:58.599
expecting a specific format back.

01:02:58.619 --> 01:03:00.639
So it's like proof of we're

01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:01.960
all hitting the same API, right?

01:03:01.980 --> 01:03:03.581
So and then,

01:03:04.101 --> 01:03:04.900
but I think some of those are

01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:05.581
moving away too,

01:03:05.601 --> 01:03:08.083
because you know I'm starting to see.

01:03:08.103 --> 01:03:10.023
I connect is probably the

01:03:10.103 --> 01:03:10.983
best one in the tenement

01:03:11.023 --> 01:03:13.684
ecosystem on on other ecosystems.

01:03:14.784 --> 01:03:15.105
I don't know,

01:03:15.204 --> 01:03:16.525
Pith is growing and things like that,

01:03:16.545 --> 01:03:16.865
where you have a

01:03:16.885 --> 01:03:17.706
third-party service that's

01:03:17.786 --> 01:03:19.347
running it as an offshoot,

01:03:19.367 --> 01:03:20.827
so that's getting away from the Val set,

01:03:20.847 --> 01:03:21.567
and there's getting away

01:03:21.606 --> 01:03:23.188
from having the Val set

01:03:23.208 --> 01:03:25.009
being responsible for on-chain prices.

01:03:26.509 --> 01:03:27.750
Because some of that was so

01:03:27.809 --> 01:03:28.489
broken to begin with,

01:03:28.510 --> 01:03:29.550
it didn't really make any sense.

01:03:30.731 --> 01:03:32.951
But away from that, just the Oracle side,

01:03:33.472 --> 01:03:34.652
Jake, the other one would be like,

01:03:35.420 --> 01:03:35.621
I mean,

01:03:36.021 --> 01:03:37.541
ones that really are on the other side,

01:03:37.561 --> 01:03:38.202
like the pain in the ass

01:03:38.222 --> 01:03:39.884
side would be L two's like,

01:03:40.543 --> 01:03:43.806
like fucking optimism and poly, well,

01:03:43.826 --> 01:03:47.547
not so much polygon, but optimism mode,

01:03:47.608 --> 01:03:49.809
anything else that's relying on L one,

01:03:49.849 --> 01:03:50.510
because you're running

01:03:50.650 --> 01:03:51.891
basically a consensus and

01:03:51.951 --> 01:03:53.152
separate execution engines.

01:03:53.251 --> 01:03:54.172
I think anytime you have two,

01:03:54.192 --> 01:03:55.353
you have a CL and EL,

01:03:55.913 --> 01:03:56.634
it's nice to be able to

01:03:56.653 --> 01:03:57.755
have the support of having

01:03:57.835 --> 01:03:59.436
multiple different options on the CL EL,

01:03:59.896 --> 01:04:01.157
but you're still dealing with,

01:04:01.956 --> 01:04:03.237
jwt files or you're dealing

01:04:03.257 --> 01:04:03.818
with something else to be

01:04:03.838 --> 01:04:04.498
able to control the

01:04:04.518 --> 01:04:05.358
communication with that and

01:04:05.398 --> 01:04:07.059
also having the right

01:04:07.099 --> 01:04:08.438
beacon node on ethereum as

01:04:08.478 --> 01:04:09.579
well as having historical

01:04:09.659 --> 01:04:10.500
aspect on the I've been

01:04:10.539 --> 01:04:12.340
syncing a ethereum beacon

01:04:12.380 --> 01:04:14.501
node for four weeks now um

01:04:14.521 --> 01:04:15.681
with all blobs because

01:04:15.701 --> 01:04:16.380
there's not that many of

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:18.121
those like all those types

01:04:18.161 --> 01:04:19.561
of situations just create

01:04:20.001 --> 01:04:21.302
challenges to be able to

01:04:21.443 --> 01:04:22.643
scale right and say I want

01:04:22.663 --> 01:04:23.382
to be able to support that

01:04:23.402 --> 01:04:24.443
and a lot of chains now

01:04:24.523 --> 01:04:25.103
that we're seeing it

01:04:25.523 --> 01:04:26.885
are heavily reliant on

01:04:26.925 --> 01:04:28.425
either an Ethereum L one or

01:04:28.545 --> 01:04:30.527
even RPC access to a ton of

01:04:30.567 --> 01:04:31.507
other sub chains because

01:04:31.527 --> 01:04:32.907
they're using other types of, you know,

01:04:33.389 --> 01:04:35.369
um, off chain data that requires from,

01:04:35.750 --> 01:04:36.811
from multiple different systems.

01:04:37.630 --> 01:04:39.371
So I don't know if that's

01:04:39.411 --> 01:04:40.152
answering your question at all,

01:04:40.172 --> 01:04:41.492
but anyway, no, that was great.

01:04:41.534 --> 01:04:42.514
I got so much out of that.

01:04:43.054 --> 01:04:43.875
Yeah.

01:04:43.894 --> 01:04:44.094
Honestly,

01:04:44.114 --> 01:04:45.556
the easiest chain for us to run right now,

01:04:45.695 --> 01:04:47.597
by far a hundred percent Juno,

01:04:48.237 --> 01:04:49.498
there's no transactions,

01:04:49.898 --> 01:04:53.239
there's no upgrades fucking

01:04:53.260 --> 01:04:54.181
thing just runs, dude.

01:04:57.045 --> 01:04:58.106
Is that the answer you're looking for?

01:04:59.268 --> 01:04:59.708
Yeah, no.

01:04:59.788 --> 01:05:00.489
It's a hundred percent the

01:05:00.509 --> 01:05:01.489
easiest show that we run.

01:05:02.130 --> 01:05:03.592
Is nobody working on it?

01:05:04.273 --> 01:05:05.434
It's just making blocks.

01:05:05.735 --> 01:05:06.715
Just going along.

01:05:07.677 --> 01:05:08.157
Cruising along.

01:05:08.177 --> 01:05:08.418
I mean,

01:05:08.438 --> 01:05:10.099
we still do emergency security patches.

01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:11.240
You're like,

01:05:11.882 --> 01:05:12.503
I want to make sure we...

01:05:12.523 --> 01:05:13.364
There's so many of us.

01:05:15.226 --> 01:05:16.467
Hey, I just proposed on June.

01:05:16.507 --> 01:05:16.847
Look at that.

01:05:16.987 --> 01:05:17.789
Just because it was my...

01:05:19.179 --> 01:05:20.159
I'm incentivized to keep

01:05:20.179 --> 01:05:21.960
Juno running until like the end of time.

01:05:22.001 --> 01:05:23.501
People bitch about losing money on Juno,

01:05:23.541 --> 01:05:25.141
but I think I lost the most

01:05:25.222 --> 01:05:25.842
money on Juno.

01:05:27.643 --> 01:05:30.722
So King or null is sending

01:05:32.083 --> 01:05:33.063
message in the back channel

01:05:33.103 --> 01:05:35.125
because he's got an infant in his hands.

01:05:35.164 --> 01:05:37.204
But he said, he said his,

01:05:37.385 --> 01:05:38.545
his key piece was that team

01:05:38.585 --> 01:05:39.865
matters more than

01:05:39.925 --> 01:05:41.646
technology in terms of how

01:05:41.686 --> 01:05:42.726
it is to be an operator on.

01:05:42.887 --> 01:05:44.226
And I totally agree with that.

01:05:44.246 --> 01:05:46.387
Like team is team is by far,

01:05:47.307 --> 01:05:50.170
uh, clarity in terms of, uh, quality of,

01:05:50.411 --> 01:05:51.090
of delivery,

01:05:51.530 --> 01:05:53.012
not so much communication communications.

01:05:53.052 --> 01:05:54.213
Like once you start understanding,

01:05:54.233 --> 01:05:55.974
understanding quality of delivery,

01:05:56.315 --> 01:05:57.335
clear communication in

01:05:57.356 --> 01:05:59.358
terms of like coordination of teams,

01:05:59.938 --> 01:06:00.958
that is the bigger thing

01:06:01.139 --> 01:06:02.940
because there's so much bad

01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:05.342
communication in, in, in this ecosystem.

01:06:05.682 --> 01:06:08.023
Also like it's, it's more than just,

01:06:08.465 --> 01:06:10.806
I mean, it is everything you said and,

01:06:11.266 --> 01:06:12.248
and more right.

01:06:12.288 --> 01:06:13.608
Because if you have a good team,

01:06:14.579 --> 01:06:15.719
you can literally have this

01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:16.900
conversation and they will

01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:18.621
go away and refine a

01:06:18.681 --> 01:06:20.342
process which is you know

01:06:20.641 --> 01:06:22.643
really good but also if you

01:06:22.682 --> 01:06:24.164
have like a very good team

01:06:24.523 --> 01:06:25.423
who are very technically

01:06:25.463 --> 01:06:29.865
astute in particular you

01:06:29.885 --> 01:06:32.586
will see improvements along

01:06:32.606 --> 01:06:34.307
the axes that need to be

01:06:34.387 --> 01:06:35.929
improved and you can talk

01:06:35.969 --> 01:06:37.188
to them about those things

01:06:38.048 --> 01:06:42.150
um and see meaningful

01:06:42.170 --> 01:06:44.092
engagement with the topic right which

01:06:50.277 --> 01:06:51.538
So one of my big beefs with

01:06:51.557 --> 01:06:52.657
the Cosmos ecosystem in

01:06:52.697 --> 01:06:54.739
general is that whether

01:06:54.759 --> 01:06:57.599
we're talking bear market or bull market,

01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:00.460
there was a lot of high

01:07:00.500 --> 01:07:03.420
enthusiasm for a problem being posed.

01:07:04.561 --> 01:07:05.260
And, oh, yeah,

01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:06.800
that's an interesting thing to solve.

01:07:06.820 --> 01:07:08.161
That would be interesting to work on.

01:07:08.201 --> 01:07:09.221
That would be whatever, whatever,

01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:09.661
whatever.

01:07:10.262 --> 01:07:11.141
But half the people in the

01:07:11.161 --> 01:07:12.101
room are burnt out.

01:07:13.023 --> 01:07:15.045
And then of the other half of the people,

01:07:15.644 --> 01:07:20.347
like let's say one in five

01:07:20.387 --> 01:07:21.306
of the remaining,

01:07:22.467 --> 01:07:23.608
are actually technically

01:07:23.847 --> 01:07:26.809
capable of even approaching that problem.

01:07:27.648 --> 01:07:28.690
And then, you know,

01:07:28.710 --> 01:07:29.829
there's a grab bag of other

01:07:29.869 --> 01:07:32.210
excuses for the remaining four people.

01:07:32.291 --> 01:07:33.150
And you end up with no

01:07:33.190 --> 01:07:34.192
people that can actually

01:07:34.211 --> 01:07:35.911
address the hard problems.

01:07:36.373 --> 01:07:37.233
So one of the things I've

01:07:37.273 --> 01:07:39.574
noticed in other ecosystems is.

01:07:40.717 --> 01:07:44.538
Like not to generalize, but, you know,

01:07:44.757 --> 01:07:45.719
and this is across several

01:07:45.778 --> 01:07:47.759
ecosystems we don't validate as well,

01:07:47.818 --> 01:07:50.300
but just who I'm aware of

01:07:52.360 --> 01:07:53.240
people who are public,

01:07:53.260 --> 01:07:55.541
who are developers on those teams, or,

01:07:56.041 --> 01:07:56.242
you know,

01:07:56.262 --> 01:07:57.902
they've been mentioned by other

01:07:57.922 --> 01:07:58.603
validators I've been

01:07:58.623 --> 01:07:59.443
talking to or whatever.

01:07:59.483 --> 01:08:00.184
They said, oh, you know,

01:08:00.224 --> 01:08:02.764
so-and-so said this or whatever.

01:08:02.804 --> 01:08:03.684
So I've seen a name.

01:08:04.889 --> 01:08:06.371
But you just come across

01:08:06.570 --> 01:08:08.751
those same names having published,

01:08:10.311 --> 01:08:10.592
you know,

01:08:10.612 --> 01:08:12.172
it doesn't have to be academic work.

01:08:12.193 --> 01:08:14.094
It can be like a medium post or whatever,

01:08:14.134 --> 01:08:16.475
where they clearly explain

01:08:16.595 --> 01:08:18.256
design decisions behind your thing,

01:08:19.395 --> 01:08:20.497
how they're going to improve it,

01:08:20.537 --> 01:08:22.197
what their current design

01:08:22.237 --> 01:08:23.658
and ideation process is

01:08:23.698 --> 01:08:26.219
behind a problem and a solution.

01:08:26.899 --> 01:08:28.539
and the decision space that they're in.

01:08:28.921 --> 01:08:31.021
And I know that's not very

01:08:31.162 --> 01:08:32.682
important to end users,

01:08:32.802 --> 01:08:35.364
but it feels like we're in

01:08:35.385 --> 01:08:36.845
a space in the cosmos where

01:08:36.905 --> 01:08:38.506
you were lucky to get a roadmap,

01:08:38.707 --> 01:08:42.449
let alone any kind of blog

01:08:42.489 --> 01:08:43.671
post which showed a

01:08:43.770 --> 01:08:46.493
technical understanding of

01:08:46.533 --> 01:08:47.672
the complexity of some of

01:08:47.694 --> 01:08:49.094
the subjects that were being grasped.

01:08:49.454 --> 01:08:50.295
And then so it was no

01:08:50.335 --> 01:08:51.256
surprise that when you got

01:08:51.296 --> 01:08:53.157
to genuinely hard problems,

01:08:53.176 --> 01:08:53.938
there was no real...

01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:57.569
There frankly wasn't enough

01:08:57.689 --> 01:08:59.779
expertise in the room half the time.

01:09:01.194 --> 01:09:02.095
and certainly not enough

01:09:02.176 --> 01:09:03.157
expertise of people who

01:09:03.197 --> 01:09:04.296
still had the capacity to

01:09:04.337 --> 01:09:05.859
tackle a problem to

01:09:05.918 --> 01:09:07.659
actually start dealing with the things.

01:09:07.939 --> 01:09:09.240
And that's why the Cosmos

01:09:09.280 --> 01:09:11.222
tech stack became and has

01:09:11.283 --> 01:09:13.845
become so stagnant because

01:09:14.524 --> 01:09:15.185
there aren't that many

01:09:15.246 --> 01:09:16.105
experts in Tendermint.

01:09:16.447 --> 01:09:18.547
There aren't that many experts in the SDK.

01:09:18.868 --> 01:09:21.791
And if you look at all the levels,

01:09:21.810 --> 01:09:23.792
there aren't many experts in Cosmos.

01:09:24.172 --> 01:09:25.673
There aren't many experts in whatever,

01:09:25.694 --> 01:09:26.514
whatever, whatever.

01:09:26.634 --> 01:09:28.176
And that's why Cosmos itself

01:09:28.195 --> 01:09:29.436
was so successful because

01:09:30.157 --> 01:09:31.578
people could actually write

01:09:31.797 --> 01:09:33.279
Cosmos and contracts and

01:09:33.319 --> 01:09:34.440
they couldn't interact with

01:09:34.480 --> 01:09:35.742
any other part of the stack.

01:09:36.261 --> 01:09:37.882
But in other ecosystems,

01:09:37.922 --> 01:09:39.944
you see people where they

01:09:39.984 --> 01:09:41.126
have nurtured and they've

01:09:41.166 --> 01:09:43.067
spent money and they've developed people.

01:09:43.608 --> 01:09:44.729
You see that there are people who

01:09:45.833 --> 01:09:47.234
there is a reasonable cohort

01:09:47.255 --> 01:09:48.435
of people who understand

01:09:48.475 --> 01:09:49.416
the consensus engine,

01:09:49.655 --> 01:09:51.216
who understand the execution layer,

01:09:51.516 --> 01:09:52.216
who understand the

01:09:52.237 --> 01:09:53.278
semantics of the smart

01:09:53.297 --> 01:09:56.378
contracts or the framework or whatever.

01:09:56.800 --> 01:09:59.541
And that is very, very,

01:09:59.581 --> 01:10:00.721
very underprivileged.

01:10:00.801 --> 01:10:01.601
And it's something that I've

01:10:01.721 --> 01:10:03.082
really come to appreciate

01:10:03.103 --> 01:10:04.663
since going into academia,

01:10:05.104 --> 01:10:07.965
because you can see,

01:10:08.045 --> 01:10:09.065
you can literally see some

01:10:09.145 --> 01:10:10.287
ecosystems where

01:10:11.606 --> 01:10:12.527
they might just be a smart

01:10:12.567 --> 01:10:13.828
contract team or an L two

01:10:13.847 --> 01:10:14.608
team or whatever,

01:10:15.268 --> 01:10:16.429
but you look at the quality

01:10:16.469 --> 01:10:18.408
of their published output and you go, oh,

01:10:18.429 --> 01:10:18.948
okay, right.

01:10:19.309 --> 01:10:21.390
You guys have a lot of

01:10:21.449 --> 01:10:23.110
problems to get over

01:10:23.190 --> 01:10:24.850
between getting from A to B

01:10:24.890 --> 01:10:27.692
to C to D. And you're going

01:10:27.712 --> 01:10:29.152
to have to solve those

01:10:29.192 --> 01:10:31.752
dynamically with your counterparty,

01:10:31.773 --> 01:10:33.514
with your validator set, with whatever.

01:10:35.033 --> 01:10:36.595
And there's a lot of teams that, frankly,

01:10:36.614 --> 01:10:37.574
you just don't have the

01:10:39.363 --> 01:10:39.904
Back to Nulls,

01:10:40.104 --> 01:10:41.164
this is basically a very

01:10:41.204 --> 01:10:42.284
long way of me saying Nulls

01:10:42.305 --> 01:10:43.185
is a hundred percent right

01:10:43.246 --> 01:10:45.046
and much more right than I

01:10:45.087 --> 01:10:47.988
think his couple of messages say.

01:10:48.188 --> 01:10:49.328
But there are some teams

01:10:49.588 --> 01:10:52.590
where you have absolutely

01:10:52.649 --> 01:10:54.551
no faith that they have the

01:10:54.610 --> 01:10:57.731
technical or strategic

01:10:57.771 --> 01:10:58.972
capacity to actually

01:10:59.033 --> 01:10:59.993
overcome the adversities

01:11:00.012 --> 01:11:01.274
they need to in order to

01:11:02.154 --> 01:11:03.635
get to their stated goal.

01:11:04.780 --> 01:11:08.002
right definitely and then uh

01:11:08.063 --> 01:11:09.162
I think the complete lack

01:11:09.203 --> 01:11:10.923
of collaboration in cosmos

01:11:10.963 --> 01:11:13.765
compounds this because how

01:11:13.805 --> 01:11:14.525
are you actually going to

01:11:14.546 --> 01:11:15.506
get the best to learn from

01:11:15.546 --> 01:11:17.047
the best well they need to

01:11:17.068 --> 01:11:17.887
be working together they

01:11:17.908 --> 01:11:18.448
need to be able to

01:11:18.488 --> 01:11:19.649
collaborate with together

01:11:20.048 --> 01:11:21.369
but because we all have our

01:11:21.409 --> 01:11:22.291
we're all trying to be the

01:11:22.451 --> 01:11:24.551
one true hub right we're

01:11:24.572 --> 01:11:25.712
all trying to be the empire

01:11:26.153 --> 01:11:27.193
oh it's adam no it's

01:11:27.252 --> 01:11:28.894
osmosis no it's tara no

01:11:28.934 --> 01:11:31.756
it's like it's my stupid chain like

01:11:34.024 --> 01:11:35.645
Like when people can't collaborate,

01:11:35.765 --> 01:11:37.966
then if you're a Cosmos SDK

01:11:38.025 --> 01:11:40.627
engineer at some other

01:11:41.106 --> 01:11:42.847
non-collaborative thing, like injective,

01:11:43.648 --> 01:11:44.707
you're basically isolated.

01:11:45.208 --> 01:11:46.408
You don't talk to like any

01:11:46.448 --> 01:11:47.869
of the other people working with this,

01:11:48.189 --> 01:11:50.470
the same technologies very infrequently.

01:11:52.411 --> 01:11:55.412
And that really hinders learning like.

01:11:58.926 --> 01:11:59.667
You don't talk to people

01:11:59.686 --> 01:12:00.528
that don't work on

01:12:00.707 --> 01:12:01.769
ecosystems outside of your

01:12:01.788 --> 01:12:02.810
chain because they're going

01:12:02.850 --> 01:12:04.150
to try to coach you for jobs.

01:12:04.671 --> 01:12:05.493
If you have a job in the

01:12:05.512 --> 01:12:06.774
inner chain ecosystem and

01:12:06.793 --> 01:12:07.694
you want a lifeboat,

01:12:07.734 --> 01:12:08.956
if you're a great Cosmos

01:12:08.975 --> 01:12:09.657
and Dev and you want to

01:12:09.676 --> 01:12:10.957
work with Ethan Fry and

01:12:10.997 --> 01:12:12.460
some cool people to make

01:12:12.500 --> 01:12:15.542
something that's just I don't know,

01:12:15.603 --> 01:12:16.243
not as shitty,

01:12:16.623 --> 01:12:18.085
but maybe we can make

01:12:18.104 --> 01:12:19.046
something inspirational,

01:12:19.966 --> 01:12:20.608
please send me a DM.

01:12:24.408 --> 01:12:24.628
Actually,

01:12:24.649 --> 01:12:25.949
we're doing amazing at poaching

01:12:25.970 --> 01:12:26.850
employees from Cosmos.

01:12:27.631 --> 01:12:30.354
It's great.

01:12:30.394 --> 01:12:31.755
It's like fish in a barrel, right?

01:12:31.836 --> 01:12:35.118
Yeah, I mean, everybody's unemployed.

01:12:35.158 --> 01:12:38.360
They're all back at McDonald's all night.

01:12:38.381 --> 01:12:39.221
Yeah, what the hell?

01:12:39.641 --> 01:12:40.762
They just don't get recognized.

01:12:40.802 --> 01:12:41.684
I actually think we have an

01:12:41.724 --> 01:12:43.466
insane amount of talent in the ecosystem.

01:12:43.485 --> 01:12:44.627
Oh, yeah.

01:12:45.447 --> 01:12:45.927
But we have very...

01:12:47.047 --> 01:12:48.387
inefficient granting orgs,

01:12:48.568 --> 01:12:49.529
and a lot of our most

01:12:49.569 --> 01:12:50.529
talented people just don't

01:12:50.569 --> 01:12:51.588
get recognized at all.

01:12:52.029 --> 01:12:54.170
There's insanely talented

01:12:54.210 --> 01:12:55.409
Cosmos and devs out there

01:12:55.430 --> 01:12:56.689
that have never gotten a fucking grant.

01:12:56.710 --> 01:12:57.091
I believe that.

01:12:57.110 --> 01:13:03.051
It's so insane to me.

01:13:03.851 --> 01:13:04.692
People that I think did

01:13:04.752 --> 01:13:05.792
really special stuff,

01:13:06.613 --> 01:13:07.733
maybe they got a secret

01:13:07.752 --> 01:13:08.773
grant or something like that,

01:13:08.793 --> 01:13:09.974
and they built some insane,

01:13:10.014 --> 01:13:11.394
cool thing that allows you

01:13:11.413 --> 01:13:12.814
to sign stuff with MetaMask

01:13:13.055 --> 01:13:13.935
precompiles that...

01:13:15.250 --> 01:13:17.412
You know, like just no, no snap meta mask.

01:13:17.432 --> 01:13:18.814
Maybe they built it in cosmolism,

01:13:19.354 --> 01:13:20.296
but because they're in secret,

01:13:20.337 --> 01:13:21.537
they don't get any ICF

01:13:21.557 --> 01:13:22.319
funding or whatever.

01:13:22.859 --> 01:13:23.060
Like,

01:13:23.319 --> 01:13:25.422
or just like nothing like people just

01:13:25.483 --> 01:13:26.725
built like.

01:13:28.257 --> 01:13:29.059
To me,

01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:31.140
I think that there is a chance for

01:13:31.279 --> 01:13:32.881
the interchange to really

01:13:32.902 --> 01:13:34.422
grow and become the dominant thing.

01:13:34.563 --> 01:13:36.064
But we need better culture.

01:13:36.083 --> 01:13:37.664
And the current culture we have,

01:13:38.685 --> 01:13:39.747
it's not very inspiring.

01:13:40.868 --> 01:13:41.747
People are building Cosmos

01:13:41.787 --> 01:13:42.708
chains to just build

01:13:42.849 --> 01:13:44.409
knockoffs of other products

01:13:44.430 --> 01:13:45.551
that exist elsewhere.

01:13:47.185 --> 01:13:50.127
We need a new era of crypto.

01:13:51.887 --> 01:13:52.788
That's back to what I was

01:13:52.809 --> 01:13:54.029
saying about technical understanding,

01:13:54.130 --> 01:13:54.329
right?

01:13:56.070 --> 01:13:57.612
If you don't have the

01:13:57.652 --> 01:13:59.012
technical literacy to

01:13:59.073 --> 01:14:01.014
actually go... That's where

01:14:01.054 --> 01:14:02.234
you go to new audiences.

01:14:02.595 --> 01:14:03.895
You know, there's all these people,

01:14:04.195 --> 01:14:05.957
they work at these web two companies,

01:14:05.997 --> 01:14:06.177
like...

01:14:06.818 --> 01:14:07.597
you know and they're working

01:14:07.618 --> 01:14:08.439
on this thing called web

01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:10.720
assembly it's amazing I'm

01:14:10.739 --> 01:14:11.579
surprised we haven't talked

01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:12.260
to these people before

01:14:12.279 --> 01:14:13.341
they're amazing rust

01:14:13.400 --> 01:14:15.301
engineers and some of them

01:14:15.341 --> 01:14:16.322
are actually quite young

01:14:16.641 --> 01:14:17.761
and dissatisfied with the

01:14:17.782 --> 01:14:19.143
way things are going oh wow

01:14:19.162 --> 01:14:20.823
this is great and they're

01:14:20.842 --> 01:14:21.884
working for some boring

01:14:21.904 --> 01:14:23.304
startup whose whole purpose

01:14:23.384 --> 01:14:26.104
is to make like aws save

01:14:26.125 --> 01:14:27.006
two hundred percent on

01:14:27.086 --> 01:14:28.265
compute costs because

01:14:28.326 --> 01:14:29.087
they're gonna run things in

01:14:29.127 --> 01:14:29.947
walls and components

01:14:29.987 --> 01:14:30.646
instead of docker

01:14:30.686 --> 01:14:31.768
containers and the whole

01:14:31.807 --> 01:14:33.228
purpose of their startup is

01:14:33.247 --> 01:14:35.048
to like just exist so they can like

01:14:35.548 --> 01:14:37.831
deliver that cost savings to Jeff Bezos,

01:14:37.890 --> 01:14:39.372
and he can buy them, right?

01:14:39.811 --> 01:14:40.872
It's very uninspiring.

01:14:41.172 --> 01:14:42.654
These people are insanely talented,

01:14:42.713 --> 01:14:45.615
amazing Rust engineers, and they now,

01:14:46.115 --> 01:14:46.775
like, we can, like,

01:14:46.815 --> 01:14:47.957
capture that movement.

01:14:48.377 --> 01:14:49.698
Some of them are working on Layer.

01:14:51.118 --> 01:14:52.000
It's, like, amazing.

01:14:52.020 --> 01:14:53.140
What if we got the people

01:14:53.161 --> 01:14:55.521
that actually build the Wasm fucking VM?

01:14:56.162 --> 01:14:56.502
So, like...

01:14:57.698 --> 01:14:58.960
instead of making this

01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:01.261
hodgepodge clusterfuck of

01:15:01.381 --> 01:15:03.582
some thing that's written in Rust,

01:15:03.983 --> 01:15:04.722
but then there's these

01:15:04.783 --> 01:15:06.304
bindings to go to connect

01:15:06.323 --> 01:15:07.645
it to these Cosmos chains,

01:15:08.024 --> 01:15:09.765
and then there's the Cosmos SDK,

01:15:10.346 --> 01:15:12.207
and that's not necessarily

01:15:12.247 --> 01:15:13.668
built with the design

01:15:13.708 --> 01:15:15.569
properties of this WallsMVM in mind.

01:15:16.109 --> 01:15:17.411
Like, crazy.

01:15:18.371 --> 01:15:18.931
Unacceptable.

01:15:19.372 --> 01:15:21.233
Let's make something better and cleaner.

01:15:21.632 --> 01:15:23.274
Who's left working on that right now?

01:15:23.333 --> 01:15:24.034
Is it just Simon?

01:15:25.796 --> 01:15:26.957
Like, who's left of the original, like,

01:15:26.997 --> 01:15:27.617
Wasm team?

01:15:27.636 --> 01:15:27.957
And, like,

01:15:28.176 --> 01:15:29.478
is that just a cocktail right now?

01:15:29.497 --> 01:15:30.319
It's basically, like,

01:15:30.798 --> 01:15:31.920
Simon holding the fort.

01:15:32.960 --> 01:15:35.060
Yeah.

01:15:35.081 --> 01:15:37.122
That's a lot of stress and

01:15:37.823 --> 01:15:38.804
ownership for something

01:15:38.844 --> 01:15:41.704
that literally a ton of

01:15:41.744 --> 01:15:43.546
chains and TVL is associated to.

01:15:46.347 --> 01:15:46.967
Yeah, you know,

01:15:47.269 --> 01:15:48.649
and maybe Interchain

01:15:48.668 --> 01:15:49.510
Foundation won't even be

01:15:49.529 --> 01:15:50.930
their largest source of funding anymore.

01:15:51.511 --> 01:15:51.730
Right.

01:15:53.671 --> 01:15:54.613
That'd be hilarious.

01:15:56.649 --> 01:15:57.409
I hope it doesn't come to that.

01:15:57.430 --> 01:15:57.510
Yeah.

01:15:57.550 --> 01:16:01.931
At the end of the day,

01:16:02.152 --> 01:16:03.171
we just have to do cool shit.

01:16:05.313 --> 01:16:08.793
You can boil it down.

01:16:08.873 --> 01:16:11.154
Can you put up Rama's comment?

01:16:11.194 --> 01:16:12.456
I want to comment on Rama's comment.

01:16:16.176 --> 01:16:18.238
This one?

01:16:18.278 --> 01:16:18.658
Yeah,

01:16:18.677 --> 01:16:19.637
there's been a lot of security

01:16:19.698 --> 01:16:21.198
patches in Cosmosm.

01:16:21.639 --> 01:16:22.720
But I would argue that's

01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:23.840
because it's cobbled

01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:25.600
together into the technology stack.

01:16:27.323 --> 01:16:31.345
It's like we have a very

01:16:31.426 --> 01:16:35.548
jury-rigged system because it's like,

01:16:35.588 --> 01:16:36.569
yeah, it's Wasm,

01:16:36.810 --> 01:16:38.530
but it's Wasm kind of

01:16:38.610 --> 01:16:40.391
through the lens of the Cosmos SDK.

01:16:40.752 --> 01:16:42.972
And it's Wasm that's just

01:16:43.033 --> 01:16:44.533
very much wired into it.

01:16:44.753 --> 01:16:46.515
If we look at the reasons Juno halted,

01:16:47.155 --> 01:16:48.577
were they bugs in Cosmos Wasm,

01:16:49.016 --> 01:16:49.997
or were they bugs in the

01:16:50.056 --> 01:16:51.257
integration between Cosmos

01:16:51.278 --> 01:16:52.259
Wasm and the Cosmos SDK?

01:16:53.716 --> 01:16:54.716
All the ones I remember were

01:16:54.777 --> 01:16:55.597
bugs in the integration

01:16:55.618 --> 01:16:57.759
between Cosmos and the Cosmos SDK.

01:16:57.819 --> 01:16:58.759
Oh, really?

01:16:59.658 --> 01:17:02.500
I remember only one bug that

01:17:02.560 --> 01:17:04.820
was related to a bug in the

01:17:04.860 --> 01:17:06.042
Cosmos standard library.

01:17:08.722 --> 01:17:09.722
Most of that shit is the

01:17:09.802 --> 01:17:11.024
interplay between those two things.

01:17:11.844 --> 01:17:14.564
And I think that is because

01:17:15.104 --> 01:17:17.246
it is an unnecessary,

01:17:17.426 --> 01:17:19.426
complicated system that...

01:17:20.207 --> 01:17:21.529
just needs to like you know

01:17:21.569 --> 01:17:23.269
we decided to like just

01:17:23.309 --> 01:17:24.770
like start over that it

01:17:24.789 --> 01:17:25.890
would be easier to just

01:17:25.970 --> 01:17:27.530
start over than try to like

01:17:27.551 --> 01:17:30.313
get the sdk to like fit the

01:17:30.353 --> 01:17:31.372
shape of the things we're

01:17:31.393 --> 01:17:33.173
trying to make and so far

01:17:33.194 --> 01:17:34.113
that's been absolutely

01:17:34.134 --> 01:17:35.774
fucking true in fact like

01:17:35.835 --> 01:17:36.735
it's insane what you can

01:17:36.935 --> 01:17:38.296
like the rust like tooling

01:17:38.355 --> 01:17:39.237
is so fucking good these

01:17:39.256 --> 01:17:40.056
days and if you want to do

01:17:40.096 --> 01:17:40.917
stuff like interact with

01:17:40.938 --> 01:17:42.557
the evm just makes so much

01:17:42.597 --> 01:17:43.458
more sense and like

01:17:44.161 --> 01:17:44.680
Guess what?

01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:45.421
No modules.

01:17:45.862 --> 01:17:46.981
Everything is just VM.

01:17:47.761 --> 01:17:48.743
And that means if you build

01:17:48.842 --> 01:17:50.103
all your application logic

01:17:50.243 --> 01:17:51.564
and smart contracts are the

01:17:51.604 --> 01:17:52.384
equivalent of that,

01:17:53.125 --> 01:17:55.045
and you never have to upgrade,

01:17:55.145 --> 01:17:55.786
like you never have to

01:17:55.805 --> 01:17:56.525
really do a software

01:17:56.565 --> 01:17:57.766
upgrade in the same way.

01:17:57.806 --> 01:17:59.207
You don't have to do that, oh,

01:17:59.306 --> 01:18:01.948
I'm on SDK-Forty-Seven or whatever, like,

01:18:02.809 --> 01:18:04.328
and now they've got SDK-Fifty,

01:18:04.368 --> 01:18:05.310
and now I need to go and do

01:18:05.329 --> 01:18:06.649
a bunch of work that adds

01:18:06.729 --> 01:18:09.030
zero value to my fucking product, right?

01:18:09.070 --> 01:18:11.572
Like, how much of Juno development has,

01:18:11.692 --> 01:18:13.113
like, unfortunately for, like,

01:18:14.144 --> 01:18:14.904
You know, it's like, oh,

01:18:14.923 --> 01:18:15.664
we need to get on the

01:18:15.704 --> 01:18:17.786
cosmos new cosmos SDK version.

01:18:17.905 --> 01:18:19.186
And so let's just remake all

01:18:19.247 --> 01:18:20.547
our old features, right?

01:18:20.568 --> 01:18:23.710
Like this is such garbage and bullshit.

01:18:23.770 --> 01:18:27.671
Like, um, so yeah, the future is like,

01:18:27.692 --> 01:18:28.252
you just write your

01:18:28.273 --> 01:18:30.293
application logic in smart

01:18:30.314 --> 01:18:31.354
contracts effectively.

01:18:32.074 --> 01:18:33.716
And like the wasm via like

01:18:33.756 --> 01:18:34.917
just run everything in the

01:18:34.936 --> 01:18:36.757
VM and then we can ship a

01:18:36.818 --> 01:18:38.519
performance boost upgrade or whatever,

01:18:39.158 --> 01:18:40.260
but all your application

01:18:40.300 --> 01:18:41.180
logic stays the same.

01:18:41.199 --> 01:18:42.341
Yeah.

01:18:43.899 --> 01:18:44.578
That all seems part of

01:18:44.618 --> 01:18:45.519
progress to me though, right?

01:18:46.060 --> 01:18:47.520
Like based on the tools that

01:18:47.539 --> 01:18:48.960
were there at that time and, and,

01:18:49.659 --> 01:18:50.720
and the issues that came up,

01:18:50.761 --> 01:18:51.820
we had no visibility to that.

01:18:51.860 --> 01:18:52.020
Right.

01:18:52.041 --> 01:18:52.740
And there's no foresight.

01:18:52.761 --> 01:18:55.761
I mean, that's, that's exactly, we,

01:18:55.782 --> 01:18:56.782
we push the boundaries.

01:18:56.841 --> 01:18:57.101
Right.

01:18:57.502 --> 01:18:58.823
And sometimes when you push the boundaries,

01:18:58.842 --> 01:19:00.143
you fail and you have to

01:19:00.162 --> 01:19:01.502
look back honestly at your

01:19:01.542 --> 01:19:04.323
failures and be like, you know,

01:19:04.904 --> 01:19:05.423
and we have to,

01:19:05.503 --> 01:19:06.425
we also have to be able to

01:19:06.465 --> 01:19:07.204
cut our losses.

01:19:07.284 --> 01:19:07.524
Right.

01:19:07.625 --> 01:19:08.645
And I think that the problem,

01:19:08.904 --> 01:19:10.645
the thing that I find really sad is like,

01:19:10.685 --> 01:19:12.086
there's like a lot of like,

01:19:13.180 --> 01:19:14.581
losses in the technology

01:19:14.621 --> 01:19:16.201
stack and yet we double

01:19:16.240 --> 01:19:17.502
down on our losses and

01:19:17.582 --> 01:19:19.903
don't like like re reassess

01:19:19.943 --> 01:19:20.983
priorities to like other

01:19:21.023 --> 01:19:22.203
things I mean at the same

01:19:22.224 --> 01:19:23.404
time I will say like also

01:19:23.463 --> 01:19:24.864
marco is doing the best job

01:19:24.885 --> 01:19:25.845
of what he what he can do

01:19:25.925 --> 01:19:29.686
right like like he's making

01:19:29.726 --> 01:19:30.987
the sdk the best it can be

01:19:31.606 --> 01:19:33.167
and the sdk itself can also

01:19:33.188 --> 01:19:34.309
be like a lot better and I

01:19:34.328 --> 01:19:35.429
think it is actually on the

01:19:35.448 --> 01:19:36.448
track to getting a lot

01:19:36.469 --> 01:19:39.751
better I'm just uh I have a

01:19:39.770 --> 01:19:42.332
ptsd from all the previous experiences

01:19:43.011 --> 01:19:43.731
Well, I think,

01:19:43.752 --> 01:19:45.634
and I think the industry does overall,

01:19:45.673 --> 01:19:46.654
because like,

01:19:46.974 --> 01:19:48.375
so this is a good learning piece,

01:19:48.395 --> 01:19:51.216
which is it's from a, from a, I mean,

01:19:51.256 --> 01:19:52.136
you've owned chains, right?

01:19:52.177 --> 01:19:53.998
Like you've been primary in

01:19:54.038 --> 01:19:54.939
terms of delivering that

01:19:54.979 --> 01:19:56.800
value and you can look back and say, Hey,

01:19:56.819 --> 01:19:57.740
that worked or that didn't

01:19:57.780 --> 01:19:58.761
work or this or this.

01:19:58.822 --> 01:19:59.442
And you like,

01:19:59.462 --> 01:20:00.542
you're moving on to the next one.

01:20:00.643 --> 01:20:00.823
Right.

01:20:02.042 --> 01:20:03.123
But from an investment,

01:20:03.904 --> 01:20:05.005
investment's a big word,

01:20:05.024 --> 01:20:06.065
but from somebody who's

01:20:06.145 --> 01:20:07.587
buying into a token or like

01:20:07.646 --> 01:20:09.028
trying to say that this is

01:20:09.047 --> 01:20:09.847
going to be the one,

01:20:10.188 --> 01:20:11.029
that's why we always talk

01:20:11.048 --> 01:20:12.409
about that a lot is, is like,

01:20:12.989 --> 01:20:14.011
it's moving so fast.

01:20:14.051 --> 01:20:14.470
And like the,

01:20:14.671 --> 01:20:15.591
the learnings are happening

01:20:15.631 --> 01:20:16.231
so quick that it's

01:20:16.271 --> 01:20:19.372
difficult to say that I'm, Hey, I'm, I'm,

01:20:19.432 --> 01:20:20.434
I can only do so much of that.

01:20:20.753 --> 01:20:20.974
Right.

01:20:21.033 --> 01:20:21.734
Like if somebody is putting

01:20:21.793 --> 01:20:24.494
money into that, um, which is just like,

01:20:24.534 --> 01:20:25.376
be careful with that shit.

01:20:25.416 --> 01:20:25.576
Right.

01:20:25.615 --> 01:20:27.157
Because like the it's moving

01:20:27.197 --> 01:20:27.817
so quick and there's so

01:20:27.837 --> 01:20:28.636
much learnings going on and

01:20:28.657 --> 01:20:29.118
there's nothing,

01:20:29.158 --> 01:20:29.957
there's nothing malicious

01:20:29.997 --> 01:20:30.858
in anything that we talked about.

01:20:30.898 --> 01:20:31.038
Right.

01:20:31.059 --> 01:20:31.599
Those are all,

01:20:32.118 --> 01:20:33.680
those are all valid types of

01:20:33.699 --> 01:20:34.859
things that end up from the

01:20:34.899 --> 01:20:35.801
base of technology.

01:20:35.820 --> 01:20:38.101
That's enabling new experiences that,

01:20:38.601 --> 01:20:39.762
that then enable the next

01:20:39.783 --> 01:20:40.563
set of experiences.

01:20:41.356 --> 01:20:42.377
what I want to make new

01:20:42.438 --> 01:20:44.078
experiences you know one of

01:20:44.099 --> 01:20:44.878
the things that really

01:20:45.019 --> 01:20:47.420
depressed me was like how

01:20:47.500 --> 01:20:48.680
just like little innovation

01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:50.462
we had we had this amazing

01:20:50.502 --> 01:20:51.582
web assembly environment

01:20:51.962 --> 01:20:52.643
like we could have made

01:20:52.682 --> 01:20:53.884
like radically new types of

01:20:54.043 --> 01:20:55.444
nft experience experiments

01:20:55.524 --> 01:20:57.166
right we could actually

01:20:57.345 --> 01:20:58.987
like and in fact some teams

01:20:59.027 --> 01:21:00.307
are using walsum to like

01:21:00.328 --> 01:21:02.088
verify super complicated zk

01:21:02.109 --> 01:21:03.909
proofs and then translating

01:21:04.010 --> 01:21:04.770
to that's something they

01:21:04.789 --> 01:21:05.831
can post on ethereum right

01:21:05.850 --> 01:21:07.692
like we could have built this like

01:21:09.007 --> 01:21:09.828
amazing stuff.

01:21:10.007 --> 01:21:10.809
And no,

01:21:10.828 --> 01:21:13.189
and we shouldn't be so down on ourselves.

01:21:13.269 --> 01:21:14.590
We did really innovate for a time.

01:21:15.029 --> 01:21:16.750
The cosmos has been a

01:21:16.789 --> 01:21:17.831
trailblazing community.

01:21:17.850 --> 01:21:19.451
Yeah, for sure.

01:21:19.631 --> 01:21:21.771
And like,

01:21:21.872 --> 01:21:23.332
there's so many ideas that just

01:21:23.353 --> 01:21:24.853
had their first in cosmos.

01:21:24.932 --> 01:21:26.474
And I think we should recognize that, like,

01:21:26.554 --> 01:21:27.514
it's something to appreciate.

01:21:28.154 --> 01:21:29.054
It's not like we should just

01:21:29.073 --> 01:21:30.774
like rest on our laurels so much.

01:21:30.994 --> 01:21:31.475
And like,

01:21:31.515 --> 01:21:33.036
we need to just be more honest when like,

01:21:33.055 --> 01:21:33.876
things are not working.

01:21:34.655 --> 01:21:35.216
Yeah.

01:21:35.235 --> 01:21:36.157
And also I think sometimes

01:21:36.176 --> 01:21:37.257
it becomes religious, right?

01:21:37.278 --> 01:21:40.199
Like it turns into like, yeah, which is,

01:21:40.340 --> 01:21:41.539
which is just fucking nuts.

01:21:41.780 --> 01:21:44.442
Like Adam is a religion and you know,

01:21:44.462 --> 01:21:46.764
I'm not like, I'm not going to judge.

01:21:46.884 --> 01:21:48.164
You can have whatever religion you want.

01:21:48.505 --> 01:21:48.984
Yeah.

01:21:49.045 --> 01:21:49.845
I wish your religion.

01:21:49.886 --> 01:21:52.386
Well, like, um, yeah, it's just,

01:21:52.506 --> 01:21:55.048
I am going to do a different religion.

01:21:55.088 --> 01:21:55.949
It's called Ethereum.

01:21:56.270 --> 01:22:00.493
It's amazing.

01:22:00.533 --> 01:22:01.773
A lot more money in it.

01:22:01.792 --> 01:22:02.434
Like there's a lot.

01:22:05.015 --> 01:22:05.815
it's great it's just it's

01:22:05.836 --> 01:22:06.496
it's just that it's

01:22:06.536 --> 01:22:08.056
objectively better ethereum

01:22:08.096 --> 01:22:09.658
party is objectively better

01:22:09.797 --> 01:22:11.078
like cosmoverse like party

01:22:11.097 --> 01:22:11.878
is just like fucking

01:22:11.899 --> 01:22:13.500
absolutely atrocious like

01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:21.444
uh it's funny that's super

01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:22.423
money dude no it's like I

01:22:22.444 --> 01:22:23.224
mean to be honest are any

01:22:23.264 --> 01:22:24.545
validators in cosmos

01:22:24.664 --> 01:22:25.586
earning enough money to

01:22:25.666 --> 01:22:26.546
even buy a general

01:22:26.565 --> 01:22:27.766
admission ticket to

01:22:27.806 --> 01:22:29.328
cosmoverse this year is

01:22:29.347 --> 01:22:30.347
that what you said so

01:22:30.747 --> 01:22:31.628
didn't you do you comment

01:22:31.649 --> 01:22:32.149
about that today

01:22:33.050 --> 01:22:33.850
a hundred and seventy five

01:22:33.890 --> 01:22:35.810
dollars and we also saw

01:22:35.831 --> 01:22:36.911
some validators talking

01:22:36.930 --> 01:22:39.610
about earnings on a

01:22:39.671 --> 01:22:41.372
particular cosmos chain

01:22:41.412 --> 01:22:44.832
that's yeah a mid-tier

01:22:44.872 --> 01:22:47.792
cosmos chain maybe and uh

01:22:47.813 --> 01:22:48.893
the numbers lined up quite

01:22:48.953 --> 01:22:51.634
elegantly I thought you got

01:22:51.654 --> 01:22:52.873
to run a node for a loss of

01:22:52.913 --> 01:22:53.713
a year to earn enough

01:22:53.854 --> 01:22:54.774
rewards to be able to go to

01:22:54.814 --> 01:22:56.814
cosmoverse and then and then about it

01:23:00.761 --> 01:23:02.783
Yeah, I mean, they're just, like, trudging,

01:23:03.122 --> 01:23:05.524
like, you know.

01:23:05.543 --> 01:23:06.024
For example,

01:23:06.104 --> 01:23:08.065
no one from Cosmoverse reached out to,

01:23:08.086 --> 01:23:10.868
like, Dowdow at all.

01:23:10.908 --> 01:23:11.087
Really?

01:23:11.127 --> 01:23:12.269
Not even to, like, Noah or whatever.

01:23:12.529 --> 01:23:13.550
Yeah, not a single person.

01:23:13.569 --> 01:23:15.451
That's weird.

01:23:15.551 --> 01:23:15.890
It's, like,

01:23:16.192 --> 01:23:17.792
the expectation is that if

01:23:17.813 --> 01:23:20.994
you're a project, you, like,

01:23:21.034 --> 01:23:22.876
pay to sponsor Cosmoverse.

01:23:23.615 --> 01:23:24.157
And, like...

01:23:27.900 --> 01:23:29.181
Well, but that was always the grift.

01:23:29.202 --> 01:23:30.884
That was the grift back in the day.

01:23:31.444 --> 01:23:34.307
And we were calling it first

01:23:34.507 --> 01:23:35.569
on Game of Nodes.

01:23:36.750 --> 01:23:37.770
People being shaken down for

01:23:37.810 --> 01:23:39.613
money by Cosmoverse.

01:23:40.173 --> 01:23:40.314
Dude,

01:23:40.333 --> 01:23:41.715
that CircleStake ad we did was

01:23:41.814 --> 01:23:42.615
fucking awesome, though.

01:23:42.735 --> 01:23:43.056
I gotta say,

01:23:43.077 --> 01:23:44.778
that was like a Game of Nodes highlight.

01:23:45.605 --> 01:23:48.948
that was fucking good yeah

01:23:48.969 --> 01:23:49.890
brings a smile to my face

01:23:49.930 --> 01:23:52.591
it was like the noble was

01:23:52.612 --> 01:23:53.974
it levana on the stage and

01:23:54.014 --> 01:23:56.235
like mars and somebody else

01:23:56.275 --> 01:23:58.217
and we did a massive circle

01:23:58.257 --> 01:23:59.257
steak banner behind them

01:23:59.297 --> 01:24:02.161
while they were talking uh

01:24:02.180 --> 01:24:02.962
that was good that's good

01:24:03.002 --> 01:24:04.182
times yeah see maybe

01:24:04.203 --> 01:24:06.305
another opportunity this year yeah

01:24:07.918 --> 01:24:09.259
Yeah, maybe we could troll again.

01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:12.220
That was through Omniflix, too.

01:24:12.239 --> 01:24:13.020
That was actually cool.

01:24:13.039 --> 01:24:14.260
That's a cool Omniflix, actually.

01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:16.001
You guys should come to DEF CON.

01:24:17.860 --> 01:24:18.400
Is that coming up?

01:24:18.501 --> 01:24:19.341
Are you going to permissionless?

01:24:19.501 --> 01:24:21.902
That's already happening, isn't it?

01:24:21.942 --> 01:24:22.521
Yeah,

01:24:22.542 --> 01:24:25.681
so we're going to sponsor the

01:24:25.721 --> 01:24:27.342
restaking tracks at permissionless.

01:24:28.302 --> 01:24:32.162
I think I'm going out there.

01:24:32.182 --> 01:24:32.563
That'd be cool.

01:24:32.582 --> 01:24:34.264
Yeah, that'd be cool.

01:24:36.420 --> 01:24:36.900
Oh, dude.

01:24:36.921 --> 01:24:39.563
Yeah, it would be fun.

01:24:39.582 --> 01:24:40.804
It would be great to see you in person.

01:24:41.064 --> 01:24:43.065
And we seriously are looking

01:24:43.086 --> 01:24:44.386
for great node operators,

01:24:44.407 --> 01:24:45.868
and we're trying to get

01:24:45.887 --> 01:24:46.969
their feedback about stuff

01:24:47.229 --> 01:24:51.311
because I think it matters.

01:24:51.872 --> 01:24:52.412
I know four.

01:24:53.554 --> 01:24:53.953
Amazing.

01:24:55.295 --> 01:25:00.680
You're in.

01:25:00.739 --> 01:25:01.140
Congrats.

01:25:01.180 --> 01:25:01.460
Awesome.

01:25:01.500 --> 01:25:01.860
I don't know.

01:25:02.280 --> 01:25:03.322
He's out of that game now.

01:25:05.283 --> 01:25:05.904
Out of which game?

01:25:06.581 --> 01:25:07.601
the node operator game.

01:25:07.681 --> 01:25:08.341
Just all mental.

01:25:08.502 --> 01:25:09.162
That was all mental.

01:25:09.823 --> 01:25:10.384
You just, you just,

01:25:10.863 --> 01:25:11.725
you just flushed the toilet.

01:25:11.744 --> 01:25:12.445
It'll be the last chain.

01:25:12.466 --> 01:25:14.686
So you can be in any time he wants.

01:25:14.726 --> 01:25:16.148
He just has to like, you know, get,

01:25:16.307 --> 01:25:17.368
get through his moody phase.

01:25:17.469 --> 01:25:19.650
He's very,

01:25:19.671 --> 01:25:20.752
he's very bearish on crypto

01:25:20.771 --> 01:25:22.012
having gone through so much bullshit.

01:25:23.583 --> 01:25:26.885
I just, I don't, I, I, I don't think,

01:25:27.244 --> 01:25:28.545
I think two things don't work for me.

01:25:28.685 --> 01:25:29.265
Right.

01:25:29.284 --> 01:25:31.365
State state model, I think is broken.

01:25:31.386 --> 01:25:33.286
Uh, well,

01:25:33.326 --> 01:25:34.466
we just happened to have like an

01:25:34.487 --> 01:25:35.487
amazing research team

01:25:35.527 --> 01:25:36.386
called block science

01:25:36.407 --> 01:25:37.747
working on new type of state model.

01:25:37.768 --> 01:25:40.188
So like, okay.

01:25:40.387 --> 01:25:40.587
I mean,

01:25:40.608 --> 01:25:42.208
if it's still on a central

01:25:42.828 --> 01:25:44.828
centralized ledger than a NGMI, geez,

01:25:44.849 --> 01:25:46.630
that's

01:25:48.771 --> 01:25:53.038
That's cool.

01:25:53.158 --> 01:25:54.161
Everything's NGMI.

01:25:54.801 --> 01:25:56.744
We almost bow down to the CB,

01:25:57.305 --> 01:25:59.048
the central bank digital currencies.

01:25:59.069 --> 01:26:01.252
That's just how it is.

01:26:01.273 --> 01:26:02.935
We're going to be...

01:26:06.027 --> 01:26:06.929
I actually don't believe any

01:26:06.969 --> 01:26:08.430
of that I think actually

01:26:08.470 --> 01:26:09.030
things are going to be

01:26:09.070 --> 01:26:09.652
really good I'm actually

01:26:10.033 --> 01:26:12.194
insanely optimistic I think

01:26:12.215 --> 01:26:13.216
some of the most dynamic

01:26:13.277 --> 01:26:14.518
and complex economies that

01:26:14.538 --> 01:26:15.899
have ever existed existed

01:26:15.960 --> 01:26:17.282
on a purely cash basis

01:26:17.481 --> 01:26:18.384
although there's obviously

01:26:18.463 --> 01:26:19.805
problematic aspects to cash

01:26:19.824 --> 01:26:20.867
as well and I think that

01:26:21.878 --> 01:26:23.621
I actually don't have, you know,

01:26:23.680 --> 01:26:24.601
if you're like, well,

01:26:24.721 --> 01:26:25.443
I don't have a problem with

01:26:25.462 --> 01:26:26.684
going back to Ethereum and

01:26:26.703 --> 01:26:27.664
being an Ethereum boomer.

01:26:27.765 --> 01:26:28.545
I don't have a problem with

01:26:28.564 --> 01:26:29.966
going back to fiat currency

01:26:29.987 --> 01:26:31.127
and being a fiat boomer as

01:26:31.148 --> 01:26:32.029
long as I get privacy

01:26:32.069 --> 01:26:33.310
guarantees with it that are

01:26:33.829 --> 01:26:34.751
better than the current

01:26:34.791 --> 01:26:36.072
privacy guarantees afforded

01:26:36.112 --> 01:26:37.313
to me on permissionless ledger.

01:26:37.734 --> 01:26:39.354
Because ultimately what I'm

01:26:39.395 --> 01:26:40.815
interested in is program.

01:26:41.277 --> 01:26:42.018
I'm interested in

01:26:42.078 --> 01:26:44.479
programmable economic incentive systems.

01:26:45.180 --> 01:26:47.962
And it is my, it is my,

01:26:49.028 --> 01:26:50.269
pretty strong belief at this

01:26:50.309 --> 01:26:53.350
point that the the most

01:26:53.390 --> 01:26:55.051
stable way of interacting

01:26:55.070 --> 01:26:57.252
with programmable economic

01:26:57.292 --> 01:26:58.873
systems is via a real world

01:26:58.913 --> 01:26:59.953
fiat currency that is

01:27:00.014 --> 01:27:02.496
backed by the labor of

01:27:03.315 --> 01:27:05.676
taxpayers if somebody

01:27:05.737 --> 01:27:06.978
proves me wrong by coming

01:27:07.037 --> 01:27:08.038
up with another solution

01:27:08.059 --> 01:27:11.360
I'll yeah I think that we

01:27:11.400 --> 01:27:12.780
have we are aligned on the

01:27:12.820 --> 01:27:13.641
same long-term goal

01:27:15.216 --> 01:27:16.417
why yeah I just I just think

01:27:16.438 --> 01:27:17.417
you can't run before you

01:27:17.457 --> 01:27:18.779
can walk and like you need

01:27:18.819 --> 01:27:20.840
to solve that problem and

01:27:22.381 --> 01:27:23.381
you're looking at you're

01:27:23.400 --> 01:27:24.862
looking at a a world in

01:27:24.881 --> 01:27:26.061
which there is a huge

01:27:26.101 --> 01:27:27.603
amount of especially

01:27:27.622 --> 01:27:28.644
developing economies that

01:27:28.663 --> 01:27:29.844
are looking at like you

01:27:29.863 --> 01:27:30.944
know some of the big uses

01:27:30.965 --> 01:27:32.005
of our stack might be

01:27:32.024 --> 01:27:33.065
people making fiat

01:27:33.086 --> 01:27:34.365
currencies or whatever I I

01:27:34.386 --> 01:27:35.667
don't try to judge I just

01:27:35.686 --> 01:27:36.728
try to rip what I think is

01:27:36.768 --> 01:27:39.288
cool yeah I I just I'm not

01:27:39.328 --> 01:27:40.168
trying to I'm trying to

01:27:40.189 --> 01:27:41.310
yeah I'm just yeah I'm just doing

01:27:44.318 --> 01:27:48.961
I think identity and money

01:27:49.280 --> 01:27:50.962
and those things need

01:27:51.002 --> 01:27:53.682
solving with a reasonably

01:27:53.724 --> 01:27:55.645
robust foundation that

01:27:55.704 --> 01:27:56.704
requires a bit more thought

01:27:56.744 --> 01:27:58.766
than jumping in and hoping

01:27:58.846 --> 01:27:59.926
that it will be okay.

01:28:00.228 --> 01:28:00.408
Yeah,

01:28:00.448 --> 01:28:03.710
I think that's my look back at the

01:28:03.729 --> 01:28:05.650
whole Cosmos experience was like,

01:28:06.676 --> 01:28:07.355
And part of me thinks,

01:28:07.416 --> 01:28:08.716
I think we were just like

01:28:08.777 --> 01:28:09.917
super baller for doing this,

01:28:09.957 --> 01:28:10.957
but we all just like got

01:28:11.018 --> 01:28:12.139
into launching blockchains

01:28:12.158 --> 01:28:13.038
without anyone having

01:28:13.078 --> 01:28:13.899
really any clue what they

01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:15.520
were doing about something

01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:16.301
in the process.

01:28:16.320 --> 01:28:16.560
Right.

01:28:17.180 --> 01:28:18.702
Like maybe people understood the tech,

01:28:18.721 --> 01:28:19.641
but they didn't understand

01:28:19.702 --> 01:28:20.542
economics at all.

01:28:21.122 --> 01:28:22.963
And like, maybe like, yeah, it was just,

01:28:22.984 --> 01:28:25.265
it was a crazy experiment.

01:28:28.546 --> 01:28:29.627
Yeah.

01:28:29.707 --> 01:28:30.127
Yeah.

01:28:30.507 --> 01:28:30.728
Yeah.

01:28:30.807 --> 01:28:33.628
I mean, it was, it was, it was cool,

01:28:33.668 --> 01:28:35.010
but you know, everything has its season.

01:28:35.980 --> 01:28:36.792
Nothing's forever, dude.

01:28:39.345 --> 01:28:39.585
Well,

01:28:40.085 --> 01:28:41.886
I'm glad to sort of announce what I'm

01:28:41.907 --> 01:28:43.228
doing on this podcast.

01:28:43.387 --> 01:28:45.569
It's my first podcast that

01:28:45.609 --> 01:28:47.050
I've officially... Oh,

01:28:47.069 --> 01:28:47.970
this is like an announcement?

01:28:48.891 --> 01:28:50.172
Oh, shit.

01:28:50.773 --> 01:28:52.654
People don't know about this.

01:28:54.336 --> 01:28:56.056
There's like a website and stuff.

01:28:56.176 --> 01:28:57.358
It's in the handle.

01:28:58.019 --> 01:28:59.500
No one asked me about Borgs, though.

01:28:59.880 --> 01:29:00.600
Why are you not down the

01:29:00.621 --> 01:29:01.440
next month anymore?

01:29:02.162 --> 01:29:02.782
I think we're just going to

01:29:02.801 --> 01:29:03.783
have to hold that for next time.

01:29:03.882 --> 01:29:05.344
You have to hit the end credits thing.

01:29:05.904 --> 01:29:06.404
I was getting there.

01:29:08.953 --> 01:29:09.514
Make it happen.

01:29:10.195 --> 01:29:11.057
And no, Roma,

01:29:11.078 --> 01:29:12.542
it's not the end of Cosmos because...