WEBVTT

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Maybe a small flat.

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That's going to be small as fuck.

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I'm just going to keep dumping video here.

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Welcome to Game and Nodes,

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a weekly podcast from

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Independent Validator Teams.

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This time hosted by two

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people who are currently

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broadcasting from the United Kingdom,

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as you can tell by the

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excellent broadband

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provision in Greater London for USURPA.

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To be honest,

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it's almost like if you were in prison,

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it would probably be better, actually.

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Are you in prison?

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Did they get you at the border?

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Were you trying to bring in

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cigars or something?

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And they were just like... I

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have seen ISIS videos with

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better production quality

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than what I'm producing right now.

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Yes, that's true.

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I am on Her Majesty's Wi-Fi.

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Her Majesty's Wi-Fi is garbage.

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Well, I mean, it would be.

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I mean, Her Majesty is currently,

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presumably,

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at an advanced state of decomposition.

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Oh, that's rough.

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oh yeah uh so how was duck

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world I i I gather you that

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it was your first tourist

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stop in the uk was to go to

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duck world right we we did

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go to duck world that was

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exciting my son is a big

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duck fan so he does have a

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ton of things so we we did

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have to make a stop over

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there but yeah no we we got

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in this morning you know

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overnight flight and just

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kind of dragging through it

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and two younger kids so

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we're just forcing them to

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we're forcing culture down

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their throats and um I see

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I see that your son has

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picked up I see your son's

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picked up a uh duck world

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hoodie do you just like go

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straight to the merch tent

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no that that one actually

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we brought from home that's

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how bad that is so we were

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adding on to the duck world items of it

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And I did get those kick-ass glasses.

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He's a legit fan.

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Legit fan of ducks.

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A duck enjoyer.

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Wait, there's more than one Duck World?

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Like this is an international thing?

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Which is... I guess so, yeah.

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It's not a big store.

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It's just a small store.

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But there's a ton in there.

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For that part of London,

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the ground rent on that

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store is probably 200 grand a year.

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So it's a big store.

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got to make they got to make

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their duck bucks like off

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of um well a lot of passing

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people who are into ducks I

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suppose I mean I have to

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admit I i just saw where

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you were based and I

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screenshotted duck world

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put a ring around it it was

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like that's pretty that's

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pretty funny sent sent it

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with the message big duck

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energy I believe was my was

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my message and the next

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thing I know is I get a

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message back saying oh yeah yeah there's

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A lot of interesting duck worlds.

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It's great.

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And I'm like, well, the joke's on me.

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I thought I was being funny.

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And it turns out not only is

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Duck World actually like a thing,

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but also it's an

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international franchise for

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duck enthusiasts,

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of which apparently there

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are a lot of duck enthusiasts beyond just,

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you know.

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It was packed.

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Was that also the reason for StreamYard?

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Because of the duck logo?

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Oh, yeah.

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Look at that.

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There is a duck up there.

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I'm kind of used to the fact

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that I have a toddler and

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he just calls every single bird a duck.

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Sparrow, duck, swan, duck, swift, duck.

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Not even bird.

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It's just duck, huh?

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No, everything with four legs is a duck.

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Everything with two legs and

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wings is a duck.

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It's really an easy, elegant system,

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some would say.

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Take that, zoologists.

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Big zoology telling you what

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to call these things.

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You just need one or two words, really.

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It's like that... Is it XKCD

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where they did that book

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where they were only

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allowed to use 100 words to

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explain everything?

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To explain a Saturn V rocket using only...

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I think it was the 100 most

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used words in Google

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searches or something like that.

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So they have the Saturn V rocket,

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and they have the label of what it is,

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and it says, like,

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Upgoer V. And then at the bottom,

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it has an arrow going up to the thrusters,

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and it has something like, Hot come out,

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make go up.

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And you're like, yes.

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This is finally a size book at my level,

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at the, at the,

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at the level of your

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average validator at the

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cosmos ecosystem.

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Amazing stuff.

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It's like the validator node,

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one-on-one child's book or whatnot.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, to be honest,

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like more documentation

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should be written in the

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style of whatever that book was called.

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The XKCD one that had an up

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go a five in it.

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I mean,

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Yeah, that might be a double-edged sword,

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but what could possibly go wrong?

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Let's get five-year-olds

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validating shitcoins.

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Let's go.

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Let's fucking go.

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It's going to bring the next billion in.

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They're all going to be under five.

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Anyway, Manny, welcome to the podcast.

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How's it going, man?

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Well, let's introduce Manny first.

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For those who don't know,

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Manny is with... That's not

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how you do this.

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You can't possibly talk to the guests.

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That's like... No,

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we're going to have to go

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back and then introduce them.

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We're trying to make it organic now.

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Come on.

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Manny's so fucking jarred

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that someone's talked to him.

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He's just like, well, shit.

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I don't know.

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So anyway, Manny's from Bear Chain.

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He's like... I did.

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So welcome.

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welcome back uh yeah I mean

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uh so a few of the squad

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here on um the barrow chain

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test net it's been uh fun

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and interesting and I'm

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sure we'll organically ask

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you some questions as time

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goes by about what the fuck

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is going on over there um

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so yeah do you want to uh

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you want to say a few

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things you want to get get

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some shit off your chest um

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I dm'd you by the way

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Probably the only thing I

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have to say is that Manny,

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lead DevRel engineer at BearChain,

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used to be at Polygon for a year,

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more supposed to be for the

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European region.

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Used to be a lead DevRel for

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Anchor as well.

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I'm sure you know them in

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terms of an RPC provider.

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And then I also used to...

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I used to be a tech lead for

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another 500-person web

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agency based in the US

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where we actually revamped coindesk.com.

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So been in tech for a little while,

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but that's about me.

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My day-to-day is really

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interacting with you guys

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on Discord as well as other

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protocols and trying to get

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you guys all talking to

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each other and getting

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integrated in terms of BearChain.

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So yeah, that's about me.

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Fielding out complaints.

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yeah I mean yeah I've done

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calls with some of you guys

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as well like um just be

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able to kind of get a sense

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so that you guys aren't

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like shitting on the chain

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publicly on the discord so

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I just like take it offline

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that's basically what I'm

00:07:42.963 --> 00:07:48.829
trying to do it's like how

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did you get involved in

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bear chain like what was

00:07:50.471 --> 00:07:51.733
your what was your in like

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how'd you get in how'd you

00:07:53.233 --> 00:07:54.355
even find out about early

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and all that kind of stuff

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The way I actually found out

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about BearChain was about a

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year ago in Paris.

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So I had just left Polygon, attended ECC.

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I was just with a friend of mine.

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We were going to different events.

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And funny enough, in the DevRel space,

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there's actually a Telegram

00:08:13.706 --> 00:08:15.226
group that just is only

00:08:15.326 --> 00:08:17.067
DevRels in crypto.

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There's like 340 of us now, whatever,

00:08:19.168 --> 00:08:19.649
in this group.

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And BearChain at one point

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actually posted some job

00:08:22.930 --> 00:08:24.252
boards for DevRels.

00:08:24.992 --> 00:08:25.831
And we were just talking

00:08:25.851 --> 00:08:26.533
about it because it was

00:08:26.593 --> 00:08:28.014
kind of ridiculous that the

00:08:28.053 --> 00:08:29.194
salaries were a hundred

00:08:29.233 --> 00:08:31.115
thousand to 1 million, right.

00:08:31.435 --> 00:08:32.596
As the, the salary ranges.

00:08:32.635 --> 00:08:34.937
And we're just like, like what's going on.

00:08:34.996 --> 00:08:36.077
I'm like, okay, interesting.

00:08:36.118 --> 00:08:37.457
A company that is coming out of Canada.

00:08:37.918 --> 00:08:39.038
Didn't think too much about it.

00:08:39.418 --> 00:08:42.961
And, uh, went to ECC, uh,

00:08:43.041 --> 00:08:45.802
saw our CTO dev bear.

00:08:45.842 --> 00:08:47.322
This basically a guy who's

00:08:47.342 --> 00:08:49.203
like in a bear mask talking

00:08:49.264 --> 00:08:50.625
about the infrastructure in

00:08:50.644 --> 00:08:52.505
terms of Polaris at the time, their V1.

00:08:52.525 --> 00:08:52.846
Uh, and, um,

00:08:55.355 --> 00:08:57.278
And then I ended up

00:08:57.477 --> 00:08:58.438
attending one of their events,

00:08:58.538 --> 00:09:00.020
which I was kind of blown,

00:09:00.400 --> 00:09:01.701
like just took me off guard.

00:09:01.721 --> 00:09:03.183
I went to the event and they're like,

00:09:03.504 --> 00:09:03.703
you know,

00:09:03.724 --> 00:09:05.466
you go to a typical event and you're like,

00:09:05.485 --> 00:09:05.686
okay,

00:09:05.785 --> 00:09:07.567
it's only these particular beers or

00:09:07.628 --> 00:09:08.609
this drinks, et cetera,

00:09:08.629 --> 00:09:09.068
that you can only.

00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:11.150
And they're like, whatever you want, like,

00:09:11.192 --> 00:09:11.631
doesn't matter.

00:09:11.672 --> 00:09:12.131
It could be like the

00:09:12.172 --> 00:09:13.192
craziest drink you want.

00:09:13.234 --> 00:09:14.434
And I was like, okay, interesting.

00:09:15.095 --> 00:09:16.155
these guys have money.

00:09:16.395 --> 00:09:18.477
And then we sat, they were like, okay,

00:09:18.498 --> 00:09:19.739
we got to stop the networking.

00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:21.341
Everybody needs to sit down

00:09:21.421 --> 00:09:22.000
because we're going to have

00:09:22.081 --> 00:09:24.023
duck confit to eat for dinner.

00:09:24.143 --> 00:09:27.225
And I was like, where am I?

00:09:27.284 --> 00:09:28.527
This is really weird.

00:09:29.047 --> 00:09:30.288
And funny enough,

00:09:30.347 --> 00:09:32.950
I just started reading some

00:09:32.990 --> 00:09:33.490
of their stuff.

00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:36.312
And then actually one of the recruiters,

00:09:36.332 --> 00:09:37.374
I ended up reaching out

00:09:37.474 --> 00:09:38.033
because I was just

00:09:38.955 --> 00:09:41.155
I'm that good on socials uh

00:09:41.316 --> 00:09:43.456
and and we just started

00:09:43.476 --> 00:09:44.517
talking back and forth and

00:09:44.557 --> 00:09:45.856
then it led to me coming on

00:09:45.876 --> 00:09:47.258
the team essentially that's

00:09:47.477 --> 00:09:48.118
it's going to be like a

00:09:48.238 --> 00:09:51.840
year in october or so they

00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:52.700
always get you with a duck

00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:53.879
front cup of coffee right

00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:55.280
that's the first thing as

00:09:55.301 --> 00:09:56.020
soon as that stuff comes

00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:56.760
out you're like all right

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where do I sign I'm in by

00:09:59.101 --> 00:10:00.962
the way like completely

00:10:01.102 --> 00:10:01.962
unrelated to your whole

00:10:02.003 --> 00:10:03.182
duck story as well

00:10:06.251 --> 00:10:07.152
Ducks are just popping up

00:10:07.211 --> 00:10:07.952
everywhere around here.

00:10:08.033 --> 00:10:09.332
Leave the ducks out of this, man.

00:10:09.393 --> 00:10:09.753
Come on.

00:10:10.293 --> 00:10:11.433
What do the ducks ever do to you?

00:10:13.875 --> 00:10:15.475
So at risk of acknowledging

00:10:15.674 --> 00:10:17.655
a guest and talking to them,

00:10:19.236 --> 00:10:21.996
I did want to just, you know,

00:10:22.017 --> 00:10:22.778
some things I guess...

00:10:23.686 --> 00:10:24.947
Might be nice to talk about here,

00:10:25.506 --> 00:10:26.787
seeing as though people

00:10:26.846 --> 00:10:28.028
show up week after week

00:10:28.067 --> 00:10:30.448
just to listen to us talk about, you know,

00:10:30.509 --> 00:10:33.710
technical things on blockchains.

00:10:34.190 --> 00:10:41.572
So the V1 of the bearer

00:10:41.592 --> 00:10:42.714
chain testnet was...

00:10:44.537 --> 00:10:46.778
quite like um I don't want

00:10:46.818 --> 00:10:48.659
to say difficult to run but

00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.201
there were like some issues

00:10:50.421 --> 00:10:51.782
in there where there was

00:10:51.903 --> 00:10:53.123
quite a bit of state bloat

00:10:53.344 --> 00:10:54.664
and a lot of you know

00:10:54.845 --> 00:10:55.825
people miss blocks a lot it

00:10:55.865 --> 00:10:57.246
was hard to sort of re-sync

00:10:57.307 --> 00:10:58.027
a node and that type of

00:10:58.047 --> 00:10:59.687
stuff just because of the

00:10:59.748 --> 00:11:02.850
size of the snapshots and everything and

00:11:04.272 --> 00:11:06.774
from that um bear chain

00:11:06.974 --> 00:11:08.254
decided to like take a

00:11:08.315 --> 00:11:09.755
different architectural

00:11:09.796 --> 00:11:11.738
approach for the the chain

00:11:11.957 --> 00:11:14.000
in the v2 test net and

00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.100
separate out the execution

00:11:16.140 --> 00:11:17.162
layer and the consensus

00:11:17.201 --> 00:11:19.803
layer more like a ethereum

00:11:22.005 --> 00:11:23.988
type network and

00:11:25.543 --> 00:11:28.264
I mean, it, it seems to be running, uh,

00:11:28.344 --> 00:11:29.063
quite a bit better.

00:11:29.104 --> 00:11:30.464
I just thought I wanted to ask, like,

00:11:30.504 --> 00:11:33.644
what was the, besides the issues with, um,

00:11:33.884 --> 00:11:35.004
testnet V1, like,

00:11:35.044 --> 00:11:35.865
were there any other

00:11:36.306 --> 00:11:38.225
motivations for separating those out?

00:11:38.265 --> 00:11:40.886
Like efficiencies that, that, um,

00:11:41.147 --> 00:11:41.787
created or.

00:11:43.287 --> 00:11:44.227
I think, um,

00:11:46.107 --> 00:11:47.268
the motivation is to make sure

00:11:47.307 --> 00:11:47.967
the chain is working.

00:11:48.347 --> 00:11:49.349
Right.

00:11:49.408 --> 00:11:49.788
Yeah.

00:11:51.075 --> 00:11:52.716
Chain working, step one.

00:11:54.275 --> 00:11:56.897
But ultimately I think what,

00:11:57.356 --> 00:11:58.378
and I won't do it justice

00:11:58.398 --> 00:11:59.817
because like DevBear CTO

00:11:59.837 --> 00:12:01.658
kind of wrote a podcast, sorry,

00:12:01.698 --> 00:12:02.739
wrote an article on this on

00:12:02.778 --> 00:12:04.759
our blog or whatnot on the

00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:05.679
architectural change.

00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:08.500
But there was a big bet on

00:12:09.020 --> 00:12:10.241
pre-compiles basically,

00:12:11.101 --> 00:12:11.981
which is kind of interesting.

00:12:12.022 --> 00:12:13.123
Like the whole bet was like,

00:12:13.702 --> 00:12:14.604
Precompiles are very,

00:12:14.644 --> 00:12:16.986
very efficient in terms of, you know,

00:12:17.287 --> 00:12:18.248
just being able to execute

00:12:18.307 --> 00:12:19.028
specific things.

00:12:19.068 --> 00:12:19.909
You could like almost

00:12:20.510 --> 00:12:22.133
precompiles for ERC 20 tokens.

00:12:22.173 --> 00:12:22.773
It could just handle

00:12:23.134 --> 00:12:24.696
transactions much more efficiently,

00:12:25.115 --> 00:12:25.316
right?

00:12:25.697 --> 00:12:28.419
And the thing that we found was

00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:30.639
one of the issues was that

00:12:31.020 --> 00:12:32.081
just Cosmos couldn't handle

00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:34.000
the transactions just as well as,

00:12:34.221 --> 00:12:35.522
you know, as ETH does or not.

00:12:35.601 --> 00:12:37.422
So there was a lot of P2P

00:12:37.442 --> 00:12:38.802
storms that we noticed kind

00:12:38.841 --> 00:12:40.623
of come up and would just

00:12:40.682 --> 00:12:42.403
like lock the network at different times.

00:12:42.482 --> 00:12:42.682
Right.

00:12:43.643 --> 00:12:45.823
And the, the idea with the precompiles,

00:12:45.884 --> 00:12:46.104
it was,

00:12:46.303 --> 00:12:47.264
it was really almost like the

00:12:47.364 --> 00:12:48.845
single binary that was like

00:12:48.884 --> 00:12:50.144
a wrapper where it was like

00:12:50.625 --> 00:12:52.225
you had Cosmos SDK wrapping

00:12:52.264 --> 00:12:54.525
around the EVM, handling some of the, the,

00:12:54.725 --> 00:12:54.806
the,

00:12:55.273 --> 00:12:56.173
the transactions and then

00:12:56.193 --> 00:12:57.154
being able to interpret it

00:12:57.235 --> 00:12:59.797
for some of the bytecode on

00:12:59.817 --> 00:13:00.457
the precompiles.

00:13:00.798 --> 00:13:01.619
The issue was like,

00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:03.200
we noticed right away is

00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:05.341
that some libraries, and we kind of said,

00:13:05.842 --> 00:13:07.283
we're using like Foundry or

00:13:07.364 --> 00:13:08.384
Hardhat or et cetera,

00:13:08.404 --> 00:13:09.365
where we're trying to do

00:13:09.405 --> 00:13:10.767
basic like transfers,

00:13:10.826 --> 00:13:11.388
we'd notice that the

00:13:11.427 --> 00:13:12.269
bytecodes actually just

00:13:12.328 --> 00:13:14.870
wouldn't work like correct, like exactly.

00:13:15.191 --> 00:13:16.532
And we get specific errors, right?

00:13:17.332 --> 00:13:18.674
on top of this whole like

00:13:18.835 --> 00:13:22.399
issue in terms of just this

00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:24.221
incompatibility and P and

00:13:24.261 --> 00:13:25.263
P2B storms or whatnot.

00:13:25.744 --> 00:13:26.784
And the funny thing is that

00:13:28.126 --> 00:13:29.729
the CTO had been thinking

00:13:29.808 --> 00:13:31.370
about this for a little

00:13:31.410 --> 00:13:33.253
while in terms of like, Hey, like,

00:13:33.894 --> 00:13:35.696
I think precompiles are great,

00:13:37.197 --> 00:13:38.298
but they're great for a

00:13:38.337 --> 00:13:39.318
specific use case.

00:13:39.359 --> 00:13:40.900
I think my bet on them was,

00:13:41.441 --> 00:13:42.961
and don't quote me on this,

00:13:43.001 --> 00:13:45.705
but his idea was like, hey, it was great,

00:13:45.784 --> 00:13:46.525
but at the same time,

00:13:46.865 --> 00:13:47.586
I think it's great for a

00:13:47.606 --> 00:13:48.386
particular use case.

00:13:48.967 --> 00:13:50.168
I think we have actually a

00:13:52.149 --> 00:13:52.791
few different protocols

00:13:52.811 --> 00:13:53.971
that actually took Polaris.

00:13:54.611 --> 00:13:56.633
And we've since archived it,

00:13:56.712 --> 00:13:58.053
but people are still using

00:13:58.094 --> 00:13:59.754
it for application specific chains.

00:14:00.195 --> 00:14:00.995
And this is a really,

00:14:01.035 --> 00:14:02.937
really ideal use case where

00:14:02.956 --> 00:14:03.898
you're doing specific

00:14:03.957 --> 00:14:05.678
transactions that you're

00:14:05.739 --> 00:14:06.820
understanding exactly what

00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:07.900
you're optimizing for.

00:14:07.921 --> 00:14:08.780
So precompiles as a

00:14:08.821 --> 00:14:10.702
framework for Polaris was really,

00:14:10.722 --> 00:14:11.263
really ideal.

00:14:13.203 --> 00:14:14.745
What I think we know, well,

00:14:14.765 --> 00:14:17.788
I think what Dev noticed was that,

00:14:18.048 --> 00:14:20.210
you know, there's this incompatibility of,

00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:20.770
you know,

00:14:20.791 --> 00:14:21.892
it's not one for one when it

00:14:21.932 --> 00:14:23.793
comes to the execution client, right?

00:14:24.014 --> 00:14:24.234
You know,

00:14:24.374 --> 00:14:25.815
what does that look like in terms of,

00:14:26.076 --> 00:14:26.316
you know,

00:14:26.355 --> 00:14:27.657
making sure that it's fully compatible?

00:14:27.736 --> 00:14:28.758
Because one of the things

00:14:28.778 --> 00:14:29.719
that we kind of see for a

00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:30.919
lot of these different like

00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.922
L2s or L1s is like there's

00:14:32.981 --> 00:14:35.083
constant forks and people are like,

00:14:35.683 --> 00:14:37.446
If you look now at Linea or

00:14:37.505 --> 00:14:38.967
Polygon's and QVM or et cetera,

00:14:39.227 --> 00:14:40.708
they're all specific forks

00:14:40.749 --> 00:14:42.071
that are potentially at

00:14:42.150 --> 00:14:44.833
London or Shanghai or at specific forks.

00:14:44.874 --> 00:14:45.734
And then they always have to

00:14:45.975 --> 00:14:46.674
figure out ways to

00:14:46.715 --> 00:14:47.615
backtrack in terms of

00:14:48.116 --> 00:14:49.477
adding new features when it

00:14:49.538 --> 00:14:50.479
comes to new upgrades.

00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:52.220
And we just didn't want to

00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:53.360
deal with that because that

00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:55.120
requires so much money.

00:14:55.140 --> 00:14:56.902
We're not going to become optimism.

00:14:57.322 --> 00:14:58.701
They have tons of money to

00:14:58.721 --> 00:15:01.462
be able to just maintain that set, right?

00:15:02.062 --> 00:15:04.323
And the thought was,

00:15:04.484 --> 00:15:07.325
where can we really optimize things?

00:15:07.625 --> 00:15:09.825
All developers really just want a ZVM,

00:15:10.304 --> 00:15:12.566
not to shame Solana in that sense,

00:15:12.586 --> 00:15:14.586
but everybody just wants ZVM.

00:15:14.706 --> 00:15:16.187
It's a lot easier for them to understand.

00:15:16.246 --> 00:15:18.807
So let's just take the best case of

00:15:19.768 --> 00:15:21.288
that existing ecosystem of

00:15:21.349 --> 00:15:23.190
existing execution clients like Geth,

00:15:23.210 --> 00:15:23.890
Reth, et cetera.

00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:26.272
And let's focus on the

00:15:26.312 --> 00:15:27.393
consensus side of things

00:15:27.893 --> 00:15:29.533
and really kind of separate

00:15:29.573 --> 00:15:31.375
concerns just like ETH did

00:15:31.414 --> 00:15:32.436
to make it more modular.

00:15:32.816 --> 00:15:34.657
And this is where it

00:15:34.697 --> 00:15:35.878
introduced so many new

00:15:35.918 --> 00:15:38.440
things where it's based off of Comet BFT.

00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:40.461
So actually it's achieving

00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:41.581
single slot finality.

00:15:41.642 --> 00:15:41.761
So

00:15:42.182 --> 00:15:43.904
And I realize I'm telling you guys,

00:15:44.105 --> 00:15:45.687
all you guys know this already, right?

00:15:46.067 --> 00:15:46.828
But at the same time,

00:15:46.849 --> 00:15:48.371
it really kind of optimized things.

00:15:48.412 --> 00:15:50.355
And we got down to two second block times,

00:15:50.796 --> 00:15:51.517
which is crazy.

00:15:52.398 --> 00:15:53.379
And then still being able to

00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:54.400
kind of support that whole

00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.884
EVM ecosystem from that point of view,

00:15:56.945 --> 00:15:57.066
right?

00:15:57.426 --> 00:15:59.206
But the bet is really that

00:15:59.447 --> 00:16:01.268
modular aspect versus this

00:16:01.347 --> 00:16:03.749
monolithic bet with Polaris

00:16:03.808 --> 00:16:04.749
and now with BeaconKit.

00:16:05.168 --> 00:16:06.250
That really, really achieves that.

00:16:06.289 --> 00:16:07.250
And it's just,

00:16:07.649 --> 00:16:09.650
if you haven't seen the talk,

00:16:10.510 --> 00:16:12.172
Dev did a talk at Modular

00:16:12.192 --> 00:16:14.033
Summit just at ECC.

00:16:14.072 --> 00:16:15.732
So I definitely recommend checking it out.

00:16:16.293 --> 00:16:18.073
Goes over the entire, you know,

00:16:18.094 --> 00:16:19.355
the reasoning behind things,

00:16:19.475 --> 00:16:20.674
what is also possible,

00:16:21.134 --> 00:16:22.176
and he'll do it much better

00:16:22.216 --> 00:16:22.895
justice than me.

00:16:22.956 --> 00:16:24.297
But as far as it goes, it's a...

00:16:25.157 --> 00:16:25.897
really bullish on this

00:16:25.937 --> 00:16:27.357
because for me I think it's

00:16:27.398 --> 00:16:28.337
a framework not only for

00:16:28.437 --> 00:16:30.818
l1s or l2s it's it has the

00:16:30.859 --> 00:16:31.860
potential to become you

00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:32.700
know the equivalent of its

00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.961
cdk or op stack where

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.801
people can start building

00:16:35.841 --> 00:16:36.822
on top of it as well which

00:16:36.861 --> 00:16:38.081
I think is a really really

00:16:38.121 --> 00:16:41.144
interesting pet manny do

00:16:41.163 --> 00:16:42.063
you know why why did you

00:16:42.083 --> 00:16:44.205
guys continue with uh with

00:16:44.504 --> 00:16:45.965
comet on the consensus

00:16:46.024 --> 00:16:49.547
layer like why why not just you know

00:16:50.942 --> 00:16:51.101
I mean,

00:16:51.121 --> 00:16:52.263
there's a lot of work in Beacon Kit.

00:16:52.283 --> 00:16:53.063
We were taking a look at

00:16:53.104 --> 00:16:54.345
what was going on in there.

00:16:54.365 --> 00:16:55.225
And I think, obviously,

00:16:55.264 --> 00:16:56.566
you said you were at Polygon, too, right?

00:16:56.586 --> 00:16:57.267
So there's some history

00:16:57.307 --> 00:16:57.927
there with kind of the

00:16:57.966 --> 00:16:58.888
Heimdall-Mohr-type

00:16:58.927 --> 00:17:01.450
structure and kind of using Tendermint or,

00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:02.210
you know,

00:17:02.250 --> 00:17:03.951
Comet Tendermint as a basis for

00:17:03.971 --> 00:17:04.551
a consensus.

00:17:05.952 --> 00:17:07.253
But why did you guys – do

00:17:07.354 --> 00:17:09.796
you know the – was it more like, hey,

00:17:09.816 --> 00:17:11.626
we already have this, you know, from –

00:17:11.626 --> 00:17:12.086
From Polaris,

00:17:12.106 --> 00:17:12.928
we already had this kind of

00:17:12.948 --> 00:17:13.528
infrastructure here.

00:17:13.548 --> 00:17:14.469
We understand it very well.

00:17:14.489 --> 00:17:15.489
So we want to continue that forward.

00:17:15.528 --> 00:17:16.309
Or was there something that

00:17:16.369 --> 00:17:18.730
really that you guys wanted

00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:19.731
to continue with when it

00:17:19.751 --> 00:17:21.211
came to a comment from Beacon Kit?

00:17:21.972 --> 00:17:23.292
So I think two answers.

00:17:23.314 --> 00:17:23.713
And again,

00:17:23.733 --> 00:17:28.056
I probably won't... I don't know

00:17:28.276 --> 00:17:29.737
Dev's mind in terms of all this,

00:17:29.797 --> 00:17:30.938
just to speak on his behalf.

00:17:30.978 --> 00:17:33.798
But I think two things.

00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:34.279
One is...

00:17:35.393 --> 00:17:36.513
There is that familiarity.

00:17:37.134 --> 00:17:38.375
Dev is actually really, really,

00:17:38.474 --> 00:17:40.395
if you look at some of his history,

00:17:41.676 --> 00:17:42.797
he was actually really,

00:17:42.817 --> 00:17:45.378
really active in terms of the Cosmos SDK.

00:17:45.419 --> 00:17:46.920
He still kind of contributes to it.

00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:48.280
He talks to a lot of also on

00:17:48.320 --> 00:17:49.401
the execution side of

00:17:49.441 --> 00:17:50.082
things in terms of those

00:17:50.102 --> 00:17:51.702
team and works with them as well.

00:17:52.682 --> 00:17:53.743
So him contributing,

00:17:53.784 --> 00:17:54.624
a lot of people actually

00:17:54.743 --> 00:17:56.285
know him from that perspective.

00:17:56.885 --> 00:17:58.086
And I think there was the

00:17:58.125 --> 00:18:00.728
bet that if we're that

00:18:01.268 --> 00:18:02.769
comet BFT in that sense,

00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.111
it achieves, there's this,

00:18:06.131 --> 00:18:07.551
I forget what the triangle is,

00:18:07.571 --> 00:18:10.512
like liveliness and like security,

00:18:10.593 --> 00:18:10.893
et cetera.

00:18:10.913 --> 00:18:11.753
There's this triangle.

00:18:12.134 --> 00:18:13.334
And this kind of gets at

00:18:13.374 --> 00:18:14.734
this idea where there's

00:18:14.894 --> 00:18:16.816
this bet at liveliness a bit better,

00:18:17.757 --> 00:18:18.696
where we can get to also

00:18:18.717 --> 00:18:20.298
consensus a lot faster, right?

00:18:20.357 --> 00:18:22.298
But it was also the bet that

00:18:22.778 --> 00:18:23.838
There is some interesting

00:18:23.919 --> 00:18:25.220
things that you can do with that,

00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:27.580
kind of piggybacking off of Cosmos SDK.

00:18:27.601 --> 00:18:29.101
And we actually have another

00:18:29.141 --> 00:18:29.961
team called Union,

00:18:30.021 --> 00:18:32.482
which is essentially working on IBC now.

00:18:33.002 --> 00:18:34.042
So there's an interesting

00:18:34.143 --> 00:18:34.983
aspect of being able to

00:18:35.023 --> 00:18:37.204
kind of merge the worlds of

00:18:37.724 --> 00:18:39.045
like the EVM execution side

00:18:39.144 --> 00:18:40.066
as well as Cosmos.

00:18:40.746 --> 00:18:41.987
And I think this is what the bigger bet.

00:18:42.047 --> 00:18:42.366
Otherwise,

00:18:42.406 --> 00:18:43.586
we would just become another EVM

00:18:43.626 --> 00:18:44.507
chain from that perspective.

00:18:46.428 --> 00:18:48.890
Not to say like that's the

00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:49.651
whole selling point,

00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:51.412
but because POL or proof of

00:18:51.432 --> 00:18:52.232
liquidity is the main

00:18:52.252 --> 00:18:53.653
selling point behind bear chain, right?

00:18:53.673 --> 00:18:59.919
But this is an interesting point.

00:18:59.939 --> 00:19:03.082
So probably you sort of talked about

00:19:04.534 --> 00:19:06.474
Bear chain being a POL chain,

00:19:06.494 --> 00:19:07.756
they'll move into that in a

00:19:07.816 --> 00:19:09.698
tick because we've got questions.

00:19:11.278 --> 00:19:17.042
But so in terms of IBC then with Comet BFT,

00:19:18.144 --> 00:19:20.184
I believe the plan is to

00:19:20.265 --> 00:19:23.607
not really ever use IBC, right?

00:19:23.968 --> 00:19:25.929
Or are you guys considering

00:19:25.989 --> 00:19:27.650
connecting in on that side of things?

00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:29.251
Or is that not really an

00:19:29.311 --> 00:19:30.593
option now with the

00:19:30.772 --> 00:19:32.433
execution layer being EVM?

00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:36.422
so so union I i can't speak

00:19:36.442 --> 00:19:37.542
to union in terms of them

00:19:37.583 --> 00:19:39.085
but the whole goal is that

00:19:39.125 --> 00:19:40.006
they were actually working

00:19:40.046 --> 00:19:41.126
on actively working on this

00:19:41.666 --> 00:19:43.087
so it actually plugs more

00:19:43.228 --> 00:19:44.710
on the the consensus side

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:45.911
to be able to see what it

00:19:45.931 --> 00:19:46.692
looks like in terms of

00:19:46.731 --> 00:19:47.751
bridging those transactions

00:19:48.353 --> 00:19:49.413
I i probably can't go into

00:19:49.794 --> 00:19:50.994
to detail in terms of how

00:19:51.075 --> 00:19:51.596
it's going to work

00:19:51.635 --> 00:19:52.977
specifically because I know

00:19:53.478 --> 00:19:54.878
I'm not a protocol engineer

00:19:54.919 --> 00:19:56.079
like like dev is and

00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:57.821
I probably know it more a high level,

00:19:57.862 --> 00:19:58.942
but that is the goal is

00:19:58.962 --> 00:20:00.025
that there is going to be a

00:20:00.404 --> 00:20:02.267
bet at least on being able

00:20:02.287 --> 00:20:04.048
to provide IBC potentially in the future.

00:20:06.092 --> 00:20:08.595
Is this the same union that

00:20:08.674 --> 00:20:10.857
is just the Cosmos union

00:20:10.917 --> 00:20:13.300
with Connor and those guys over there?

00:20:13.320 --> 00:20:14.422
Is that the union you're talking about?

00:20:18.291 --> 00:20:20.473
Sorry, union.build essentially.

00:20:21.234 --> 00:20:24.116
Like if you go to their website,

00:20:24.458 --> 00:20:26.298
they're essentially working on this.

00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:28.902
And yeah,

00:20:29.142 --> 00:20:31.023
I'll post a link here if that works.

00:20:31.784 --> 00:20:32.565
But they're essentially,

00:20:32.585 --> 00:20:33.224
they're the team that's

00:20:33.244 --> 00:20:35.326
going to be working on this specifically.

00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:39.391
Yeah,

00:20:39.451 --> 00:20:40.892
that's the same union that I'm

00:20:40.932 --> 00:20:41.373
talking about.

00:20:41.413 --> 00:20:43.193
They've got their test net

00:20:43.233 --> 00:20:44.055
up at the moment as well.

00:20:45.253 --> 00:20:47.175
um, I believe, well, you, you'd be a,

00:20:47.675 --> 00:20:48.717
you'd be in that test net too.

00:20:48.757 --> 00:20:50.077
Certain, probably she'll see too.

00:20:51.058 --> 00:20:53.500
Um, but back on, uh,

00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:56.041
Lavender's in the comments, uh,

00:20:56.383 --> 00:20:57.542
taxes and movie reviews.

00:20:58.203 --> 00:21:00.826
So that's, that's usually where we end up,

00:21:00.846 --> 00:21:01.105
Manny.

00:21:01.145 --> 00:21:02.666
We end up sort of psyched,

00:21:02.727 --> 00:21:04.308
getting sidetracked and talking about tax,

00:21:04.368 --> 00:21:07.290
but, um, resisting the urge today.

00:21:07.310 --> 00:21:11.213
Uh, so proof of liquidity, um,

00:21:12.798 --> 00:21:13.959
new concepts for everyone

00:21:13.999 --> 00:21:16.140
involved and uh you know

00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:17.819
there's it can be quite a

00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.980
lot of uh misunderstandings

00:21:22.020 --> 00:21:24.080
with it and um you know

00:21:24.101 --> 00:21:26.241
especially validators

00:21:26.281 --> 00:21:27.082
trying to wrap their head

00:21:27.102 --> 00:21:28.102
around it it's completely

00:21:28.142 --> 00:21:29.561
different uh Paradigm to

00:21:29.582 --> 00:21:31.002
what we're used to

00:21:31.182 --> 00:21:34.323
obviously and sort of you

00:21:34.363 --> 00:21:35.844
know the whole economics of

00:21:35.884 --> 00:21:38.403
the chain sort of changes

00:21:38.884 --> 00:21:41.224
uh with this mechanism and so

00:21:43.553 --> 00:21:44.093
I was wondering,

00:21:44.133 --> 00:21:46.595
did you want to give us a

00:21:46.634 --> 00:21:47.835
brief rundown for me then

00:21:47.914 --> 00:21:49.236
be able to probe you with

00:21:49.276 --> 00:21:50.096
questions on that?

00:21:50.175 --> 00:21:52.676
Or did you want me to just

00:21:53.077 --> 00:21:54.637
start asking you questions about it?

00:21:57.509 --> 00:21:58.809
I will try my best.

00:21:59.029 --> 00:22:00.049
Whatever questions you guys have,

00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:01.010
I'll try to do.

00:22:01.530 --> 00:22:03.092
The only thing I probably will preface,

00:22:03.132 --> 00:22:04.571
and I was just going to say this,

00:22:04.632 --> 00:22:06.673
is that the tokenomics are

00:22:06.712 --> 00:22:07.733
probably not finalized.

00:22:08.153 --> 00:22:09.673
So whatever I'm telling you right now,

00:22:09.753 --> 00:22:10.654
and I'm sure you guys have

00:22:10.694 --> 00:22:12.276
already seen some of the

00:22:12.316 --> 00:22:13.516
contracts or even for that matter,

00:22:13.576 --> 00:22:14.936
how like the rewards come

00:22:14.957 --> 00:22:15.596
through the blocks.

00:22:16.477 --> 00:22:17.357
Those are probably,

00:22:17.377 --> 00:22:19.618
they're changing at one

00:22:19.679 --> 00:22:21.298
point and they're subject

00:22:21.318 --> 00:22:22.140
to change or whatnot in

00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.400
terms of up until main net.

00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:24.080
So...

00:22:25.674 --> 00:22:28.836
So for those who are new to

00:22:28.955 --> 00:22:30.215
Bearer Chain and listening to this,

00:22:31.415 --> 00:22:33.675
so proof of liquidity is a

00:22:33.756 --> 00:22:35.416
mechanism whereby

00:22:35.436 --> 00:22:39.417
protocols... I'm going to butcher this,

00:22:39.478 --> 00:22:41.238
Matty.

00:22:41.438 --> 00:22:41.978
Let's hear it.

00:22:42.057 --> 00:22:43.077
Yeah.

00:22:44.117 --> 00:22:44.377
Yeah.

00:22:44.397 --> 00:22:45.719
So I'm trying to picture it

00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.259
all in my mind while I'm talking.

00:22:47.278 --> 00:22:48.038
I should have written down a

00:22:48.058 --> 00:22:48.699
bloody speech.

00:22:49.098 --> 00:22:52.339
So basically we have...

00:22:55.116 --> 00:22:56.218
Validators still have

00:22:56.397 --> 00:22:58.119
emissions based on how much

00:22:58.180 --> 00:22:58.880
stake they have.

00:22:59.020 --> 00:23:00.781
So emissions of BGT.

00:23:01.423 --> 00:23:03.625
And how that BGT gets to

00:23:04.705 --> 00:23:06.666
stake is... What's BGT?

00:23:07.848 --> 00:23:10.171
It's just the native token, BGT.

00:23:11.451 --> 00:23:13.252
So it's what?

00:23:13.272 --> 00:23:17.497
The governance token of the bearer chain.

00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:20.380
Matty?

00:23:22.704 --> 00:23:22.984
Yes.

00:23:23.224 --> 00:23:26.865
So yes and no for some things.

00:23:27.205 --> 00:23:29.807
So BGT five words into it.

00:23:29.826 --> 00:23:32.988
Yeah.

00:23:33.367 --> 00:23:36.388
So BGT bear chain governance token.

00:23:36.828 --> 00:23:39.009
It is a it is a soulbound

00:23:39.109 --> 00:23:41.131
ERC 20 token essentially.

00:23:41.191 --> 00:23:42.131
So you can't transfer it.

00:23:42.471 --> 00:23:43.830
You can burn it for Barrow,

00:23:43.891 --> 00:23:45.311
which is our native gas token.

00:23:46.271 --> 00:23:48.252
And it is essentially the

00:23:48.992 --> 00:23:50.133
token that's given for

00:23:50.173 --> 00:23:51.772
block rewards for validators.

00:23:52.153 --> 00:23:53.913
It's also used for

00:23:54.733 --> 00:23:55.953
essentially delegators or

00:23:55.973 --> 00:23:57.173
essentially users who have

00:23:57.354 --> 00:23:58.775
that BGT to be able to

00:23:58.835 --> 00:24:00.954
delegate to validators to

00:24:00.994 --> 00:24:02.055
essentially increase their

00:24:02.154 --> 00:24:03.394
reward rate in that sense.

00:24:03.615 --> 00:24:05.976
So as they delegate them to validators,

00:24:06.536 --> 00:24:07.516
they increase their chances

00:24:07.576 --> 00:24:09.497
of being able to get those

00:24:09.557 --> 00:24:10.656
rewards essentially per block.

00:24:12.626 --> 00:24:13.727
There is another token.

00:24:13.826 --> 00:24:15.348
It's tied to a single

00:24:15.388 --> 00:24:16.769
account and you can burn.

00:24:17.130 --> 00:24:18.691
So when you say,

00:24:19.290 --> 00:24:21.192
I might have misheard something there.

00:24:21.212 --> 00:24:23.394
So when you burn it,

00:24:23.453 --> 00:24:25.516
that allows you to exchange

00:24:25.635 --> 00:24:27.376
it for something else that

00:24:27.436 --> 00:24:28.857
you can then sell or trade

00:24:29.057 --> 00:24:30.298
or is liquid in some way?

00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:31.160
Correct.

00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:31.440
Yeah.

00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:33.321
And that is the native gas token.

00:24:33.541 --> 00:24:35.502
So technically what happens

00:24:35.923 --> 00:24:37.484
is that every block there

00:24:37.605 --> 00:24:40.366
is new BGT that's minted for the rewards.

00:24:41.346 --> 00:24:42.307
At that same time,

00:24:42.969 --> 00:24:44.690
there is a bear that's also minted,

00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:46.632
but it's held in a sort of

00:24:46.652 --> 00:24:48.472
like a vault in that sense

00:24:48.553 --> 00:24:49.773
where it's kept one to one.

00:24:49.794 --> 00:24:51.315
So whatever BGT is minted,

00:24:51.395 --> 00:24:52.415
there's also a bear that's

00:24:52.455 --> 00:24:53.557
minted on its behalf as

00:24:53.616 --> 00:24:56.038
well so that it's there

00:24:56.078 --> 00:24:57.140
that any time that somebody

00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:58.601
does decide or if they do

00:24:58.641 --> 00:25:00.762
decide to be able to burn it, you know,

00:25:01.002 --> 00:25:02.003
there is something for it

00:25:02.023 --> 00:25:02.644
to be able to make it

00:25:02.724 --> 00:25:03.665
liquid in that perspective.

00:25:04.306 --> 00:25:06.146
But you might be asking like, you know,

00:25:06.166 --> 00:25:07.228
like, okay, well,

00:25:07.428 --> 00:25:09.209
why not just give me the gas token then?

00:25:09.249 --> 00:25:10.750
Like, what's the whole point of BGT,

00:25:10.829 --> 00:25:11.049
right?

00:25:12.131 --> 00:25:14.471
Well, the goal of BGT is really influence,

00:25:14.551 --> 00:25:14.731
right?

00:25:15.633 --> 00:25:16.333
If you think about it.

00:25:16.413 --> 00:25:19.914
So the way that it works is that,

00:25:20.816 --> 00:25:21.496
as I mentioned before,

00:25:21.596 --> 00:25:22.757
users get to delegate to

00:25:22.797 --> 00:25:23.717
validators to be able to

00:25:23.737 --> 00:25:24.438
increase their weight.

00:25:24.458 --> 00:25:25.878
So they're essentially kind

00:25:25.898 --> 00:25:27.278
of influencing the network and saying,

00:25:27.318 --> 00:25:29.320
hey, we trust these particular validators,

00:25:29.381 --> 00:25:29.560
right?

00:25:30.260 --> 00:25:31.321
And the way that they

00:25:31.362 --> 00:25:32.261
typically get that is

00:25:32.301 --> 00:25:33.182
through reward vaults.

00:25:33.762 --> 00:25:34.884
And some implementation of a

00:25:34.903 --> 00:25:38.486
reward vaults are decks, essentially,

00:25:38.506 --> 00:25:39.226
which is called BECs.

00:25:39.846 --> 00:25:42.028
So we have whitelisted pools

00:25:42.248 --> 00:25:43.288
and other specific pools

00:25:43.648 --> 00:25:44.409
that are reward vaults,

00:25:44.588 --> 00:25:46.849
where if you LP into those pools,

00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:51.191
like Honey USDC, not Honey USDC,

00:25:51.211 --> 00:25:54.952
but Honey Bearer for that matter.

00:25:54.992 --> 00:25:56.432
And Honey is actually our stable coin,

00:25:56.452 --> 00:25:57.354
which is our third token.

00:25:58.634 --> 00:26:00.075
You essentially will get a receipt token,

00:26:00.095 --> 00:26:01.035
which you get to stake into

00:26:01.075 --> 00:26:02.776
this reward vault.

00:26:03.155 --> 00:26:04.195
Sort of like a tokenized vault,

00:26:04.256 --> 00:26:06.797
you have shares and validators actually,

00:26:06.916 --> 00:26:07.798
when they propose a block,

00:26:07.817 --> 00:26:08.317
they actually have to

00:26:08.357 --> 00:26:09.897
decide which reward vaults

00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:10.858
that they're actually

00:26:10.898 --> 00:26:12.318
distributing some of their BGT to.

00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:16.182
Basically, every block that's proposed,

00:26:16.201 --> 00:26:17.442
there's new BGT that's introduced.

00:26:18.223 --> 00:26:19.125
Every validator has a,

00:26:19.224 --> 00:26:20.365
it's called a bear chef,

00:26:20.986 --> 00:26:22.387
essentially a distribution

00:26:22.407 --> 00:26:23.167
list where they actually

00:26:23.228 --> 00:26:24.328
distribute to specific vaults.

00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:26.270
Those vaults, essentially,

00:26:27.031 --> 00:26:28.053
people that are qualified

00:26:28.073 --> 00:26:30.173
are people that stake those

00:26:30.234 --> 00:26:30.875
receipt tokens.

00:26:30.934 --> 00:26:32.576
And those where we have a

00:26:32.636 --> 00:26:33.557
lending protocol as well.

00:26:34.238 --> 00:26:36.500
If you borrow from our lending protocol,

00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:38.001
you're eligible to be able

00:26:38.021 --> 00:26:39.782
to receive that BGT as well.

00:26:40.263 --> 00:26:42.224
And we have our perpetuals as well,

00:26:42.244 --> 00:26:43.006
which is called burps.

00:26:43.946 --> 00:26:44.667
So if you actually

00:26:44.748 --> 00:26:46.108
contribute to the honey vault,

00:26:46.229 --> 00:26:47.891
you're also, you get a receipt token,

00:26:47.911 --> 00:26:49.092
which you get the stake and

00:26:49.132 --> 00:26:50.432
that makes you eligible for,

00:26:50.593 --> 00:26:51.693
for BGT as well.

00:26:51.834 --> 00:26:53.976
When, so validators can actually just,

00:26:54.135 --> 00:26:55.678
what's the, what's the use case?

00:26:56.357 --> 00:26:59.662
I think I might, uh, perhaps I'm, uh,

00:27:00.261 --> 00:27:01.362
perhaps I was just dropped

00:27:01.402 --> 00:27:02.403
on my head as a baby.

00:27:02.423 --> 00:27:05.423
Um, what's the situation?

00:27:05.663 --> 00:27:06.644
What's the reason why you,

00:27:07.964 --> 00:27:10.325
if there's a pegging of, uh, of, you know,

00:27:10.365 --> 00:27:11.006
there's always interest

00:27:11.026 --> 00:27:12.006
when there's a pegging, isn't there?

00:27:12.046 --> 00:27:13.266
But if there's a pegging of

00:27:13.405 --> 00:27:14.946
one-to-one between the

00:27:14.987 --> 00:27:16.788
governance token and liquid token, uh,

00:27:18.509 --> 00:27:19.691
what's the, what, what,

00:27:19.750 --> 00:27:20.932
what's the rationale for

00:27:21.071 --> 00:27:22.534
ever actually then needing

00:27:22.554 --> 00:27:23.575
the governance token to be

00:27:23.595 --> 00:27:25.215
set separate from liquid token,

00:27:25.256 --> 00:27:26.057
given the supply, uh,

00:27:27.097 --> 00:27:28.179
should in theory be the same.

00:27:28.239 --> 00:27:29.880
And in order to, in order to actually, to,

00:27:31.082 --> 00:27:32.222
to change that pegging is

00:27:32.262 --> 00:27:33.903
effectively going to, um,

00:27:35.285 --> 00:27:37.067
cause like a D a devaluation, um,

00:27:38.528 --> 00:27:40.368
and a change in the

00:27:40.429 --> 00:27:42.530
economics of the whole chain.

00:27:43.971 --> 00:27:44.791
And bear in mind,

00:27:44.811 --> 00:27:46.133
a constriction of the money

00:27:46.153 --> 00:27:48.034
supply that actually you

00:27:48.054 --> 00:27:49.174
could also achieve the same

00:27:49.234 --> 00:27:50.556
thing by changing inflation

00:27:50.976 --> 00:27:53.698
or having dynamic inflation in some way.

00:27:53.738 --> 00:27:54.998
The control of the money supply,

00:27:55.038 --> 00:27:57.039
if that is something that's important,

00:27:57.099 --> 00:27:59.641
it can be done for another reason.

00:28:00.541 --> 00:28:03.222
So you could just lock the other tokens.

00:28:03.644 --> 00:28:05.444
So is it purely just because

00:28:05.464 --> 00:28:06.525
it effectively gives you...

00:28:08.587 --> 00:28:09.189
It means you don't need

00:28:09.229 --> 00:28:10.590
liquid state assets because

00:28:10.611 --> 00:28:11.952
the two tokens are separate.

00:28:12.713 --> 00:28:13.315
But, you know,

00:28:14.229 --> 00:28:16.650
Do you get, I mean, my math is fuzzy,

00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:16.970
right?

00:28:17.430 --> 00:28:18.309
It's not my strong point,

00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:20.451
but you obviously have the

00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:21.431
larger pool of liquid

00:28:21.451 --> 00:28:22.611
tokens hypothetically,

00:28:22.671 --> 00:28:24.771
but given that as I understand it,

00:28:24.791 --> 00:28:25.432
they're already kind of

00:28:25.471 --> 00:28:27.571
locked up and held in trust.

00:28:27.632 --> 00:28:29.313
It's not like users are

00:28:29.333 --> 00:28:33.013
getting the benefit of like

00:28:33.034 --> 00:28:34.213
liquid staking derivatives

00:28:34.233 --> 00:28:35.054
or something like that.

00:28:35.874 --> 00:28:38.494
It's more that they just don't, you know,

00:28:38.535 --> 00:28:40.355
they have an extra layer of indirection,

00:28:40.575 --> 00:28:42.435
which I don't really fully understand.

00:28:42.970 --> 00:28:43.269
Yeah.

00:28:43.971 --> 00:28:46.732
So we get this a lot in

00:28:46.792 --> 00:28:47.272
terms of kind of

00:28:47.292 --> 00:28:48.413
understanding because most

00:28:48.473 --> 00:28:50.214
people's like perception is

00:28:50.275 --> 00:28:51.875
really to go back to like proof of stake,

00:28:51.955 --> 00:28:52.155
right?

00:28:52.215 --> 00:28:54.018
You know, you have your gas tokens,

00:28:54.057 --> 00:28:54.597
et cetera.

00:28:55.439 --> 00:28:57.299
It's, you know, I've staked with it.

00:28:57.420 --> 00:28:59.020
I'm essentially getting my rewards in it.

00:28:59.060 --> 00:29:01.962
Everything is pretty, you know,

00:29:01.982 --> 00:29:02.943
straightforward in that sense.

00:29:02.983 --> 00:29:04.825
And we've basically bifurcated that,

00:29:04.944 --> 00:29:05.144
right?

00:29:05.204 --> 00:29:06.165
You have your governance

00:29:06.185 --> 00:29:07.446
tokens and your bear token, right?

00:29:08.346 --> 00:29:10.488
The whole reason behind this was,

00:29:10.988 --> 00:29:13.148
and I recommend,

00:29:13.509 --> 00:29:14.528
there's a blog post from us

00:29:14.588 --> 00:29:16.328
called the Fat Bearer Thesis or whatnot.

00:29:16.368 --> 00:29:19.450
There's this idea of, it's called the,

00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:21.090
the original thesis was on

00:29:21.111 --> 00:29:23.151
the protocol thesis and the other was,

00:29:23.471 --> 00:29:24.771
the original for web is

00:29:24.811 --> 00:29:25.872
actually the app thesis.

00:29:25.912 --> 00:29:27.153
So the app thesis is really

00:29:27.853 --> 00:29:29.173
applications or mega apps

00:29:29.232 --> 00:29:30.453
essentially kind of control

00:29:30.473 --> 00:29:31.314
the liquidity in terms of

00:29:31.374 --> 00:29:32.913
regular web two or web in general.

00:29:32.953 --> 00:29:34.194
If you think about it, like mega apps,

00:29:34.234 --> 00:29:35.214
like, I don't know,

00:29:37.147 --> 00:29:38.828
uber depending or depending

00:29:38.848 --> 00:29:39.990
on what country whatnot a

00:29:40.029 --> 00:29:41.431
mega app or wechat whatnot

00:29:41.490 --> 00:29:42.790
might be a mega app that

00:29:42.810 --> 00:29:43.771
kind of controls most of

00:29:43.811 --> 00:29:45.153
the actual revenue or

00:29:45.232 --> 00:29:46.973
liquidity in that sense on

00:29:47.013 --> 00:29:49.535
blockchain it's um a little

00:29:49.555 --> 00:29:51.395
bit more one-sided in terms

00:29:51.536 --> 00:29:52.836
of protocols so if you

00:29:52.856 --> 00:29:53.637
think about it like there's

00:29:53.817 --> 00:29:55.238
a lot of lock tvl in terms

00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.200
of a chain right but some

00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.660
of the apps they they never

00:29:58.780 --> 00:29:59.980
see any of that money like

00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:01.041
they're they're basically

00:30:01.082 --> 00:30:02.102
trying to get at crumbs if

00:30:02.122 --> 00:30:02.762
you can think about it

00:30:03.163 --> 00:30:03.883
And not to say that those

00:30:03.923 --> 00:30:05.483
crumbs aren't big, you know,

00:30:05.523 --> 00:30:06.305
but at the same time,

00:30:06.365 --> 00:30:07.005
it's sort of like there

00:30:07.045 --> 00:30:08.085
seems to be like this weird

00:30:08.125 --> 00:30:09.486
imbalance that, you know,

00:30:09.586 --> 00:30:10.686
the protocol has like a ton

00:30:10.707 --> 00:30:12.267
of money and like the dApps

00:30:12.307 --> 00:30:12.988
that are building in it,

00:30:13.048 --> 00:30:13.667
which are essentially

00:30:13.708 --> 00:30:14.828
bringing all the users to

00:30:14.848 --> 00:30:16.028
this this chain as well.

00:30:16.548 --> 00:30:18.349
They're not like there's no

00:30:18.390 --> 00:30:19.211
benefit from them apart

00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:20.431
from the actual the use case.

00:30:20.451 --> 00:30:20.530
Well,

00:30:20.550 --> 00:30:22.071
it's because they don't charge money

00:30:22.132 --> 00:30:23.512
for their service upfront.

00:30:24.201 --> 00:30:25.882
So the, the, the thing that the, the,

00:30:25.981 --> 00:30:27.623
the problem that has been described with,

00:30:27.742 --> 00:30:28.923
with the kind of web two

00:30:28.963 --> 00:30:32.365
mega apps is that, uh, primarily, uh,

00:30:32.425 --> 00:30:33.306
some of them do actually

00:30:33.346 --> 00:30:34.886
Uber will be an example of that.

00:30:34.906 --> 00:30:35.728
I know they have issues with

00:30:35.768 --> 00:30:36.567
profitability.

00:30:37.308 --> 00:30:38.509
Uh, they don't charge, you know,

00:30:38.528 --> 00:30:40.069
the upfront fee that necessarily,

00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:41.730
and actually to be fair, some, uh,

00:30:41.951 --> 00:30:43.332
delivery services, a prime example,

00:30:43.372 --> 00:30:45.073
like the deliveries of this world, right.

00:30:45.093 --> 00:30:45.252
They,

00:30:45.653 --> 00:30:46.773
they actually don't charge enough to

00:30:46.814 --> 00:30:47.554
cover their own costs and

00:30:47.574 --> 00:30:48.154
they lose money.

00:30:48.234 --> 00:30:48.494
Right.

00:30:48.515 --> 00:30:50.395
So that's a similar problem, I suppose,

00:30:50.435 --> 00:30:51.396
where, um,

00:30:52.517 --> 00:30:54.417
you know they they they have

00:30:54.557 --> 00:30:56.578
users they accumulate a

00:30:56.598 --> 00:30:57.598
large amount of power and

00:30:58.419 --> 00:30:59.720
and network effects but

00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:00.720
don't actually make money

00:31:00.819 --> 00:31:02.221
and part of the reason that

00:31:02.260 --> 00:31:06.501
they um well a one of the

00:31:06.541 --> 00:31:07.903
many hypotheses for what is

00:31:07.942 --> 00:31:09.222
going on here is actually

00:31:09.242 --> 00:31:11.144
that they are landowners

00:31:11.423 --> 00:31:13.884
right um and their economic model is

00:31:14.728 --> 00:31:16.451
would be conceptually the

00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:17.872
same as a walled garden, you know,

00:31:17.912 --> 00:31:20.015
like feudal landowning or

00:31:20.035 --> 00:31:20.655
something like that.

00:31:20.695 --> 00:31:21.698
It's like, oh,

00:31:22.258 --> 00:31:22.919
if you kind of look at

00:31:22.959 --> 00:31:23.819
different economic models,

00:31:23.859 --> 00:31:25.041
it's one of them you can apply to it,

00:31:25.082 --> 00:31:25.241
right?

00:31:25.722 --> 00:31:27.525
And you see this with very

00:31:27.585 --> 00:31:29.188
highly developed countries

00:31:30.367 --> 00:31:31.429
marketplaces in the space

00:31:31.469 --> 00:31:32.249
like you know something

00:31:32.288 --> 00:31:33.910
like I think amazon's like

00:31:33.930 --> 00:31:35.049
the easiest one where they

00:31:35.069 --> 00:31:36.490
just go like no we we own

00:31:36.510 --> 00:31:37.330
this it's our land we're

00:31:37.351 --> 00:31:38.211
going to essentially

00:31:38.672 --> 00:31:40.353
extract rent in one way or

00:31:40.393 --> 00:31:41.192
another and a lot of the

00:31:41.333 --> 00:31:42.453
really large incumbents do

00:31:42.493 --> 00:31:43.753
this by selling your data

00:31:43.814 --> 00:31:44.535
right that's the actual

00:31:44.575 --> 00:31:47.976
rent you you pay and so the

00:31:48.135 --> 00:31:49.436
the issue that you have you

00:31:49.457 --> 00:31:50.096
know with a lot of these

00:31:50.176 --> 00:31:51.298
daps that are not charging

00:31:51.337 --> 00:31:52.538
money is that they they're

00:31:52.557 --> 00:31:53.117
obviously never going to

00:31:53.137 --> 00:31:54.439
make money right because they

00:31:55.156 --> 00:31:57.718
They are in a landowning paradigm,

00:31:57.798 --> 00:31:59.719
because that's what crypto is, right?

00:31:59.778 --> 00:32:02.240
It's an oligarchy with landowning.

00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:04.961
And the blockchain substrate

00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:07.922
underneath own the land, right?

00:32:08.301 --> 00:32:10.782
And so this is why I stopped

00:32:10.803 --> 00:32:12.063
developing dApps, incidentally,

00:32:12.103 --> 00:32:13.003
is because there's no point

00:32:13.223 --> 00:32:14.003
developing dApps,

00:32:14.104 --> 00:32:15.565
because you can only ever make crumbs,

00:32:15.684 --> 00:32:17.724
because 1,000 years of

00:32:17.805 --> 00:32:19.205
economic history says that

00:32:19.385 --> 00:32:21.067
if you are a farmer tilling the land,

00:32:21.106 --> 00:32:21.906
you are only ever going to

00:32:21.967 --> 00:32:24.127
make money for the feudal landowner.

00:32:24.708 --> 00:32:25.768
So my question would be,

00:32:25.788 --> 00:32:29.108
in the context of a

00:32:29.148 --> 00:32:31.630
blockchain that is a platform blockchain,

00:32:34.109 --> 00:32:35.631
the tokenomics can be very, very clever,

00:32:35.671 --> 00:32:37.371
but what can you actually

00:32:37.411 --> 00:32:41.531
do to ensure that you're

00:32:41.571 --> 00:32:42.692
sure of telling people, hey,

00:32:42.852 --> 00:32:44.833
are you charging upfront

00:32:44.853 --> 00:32:45.512
for what you're doing?

00:32:48.090 --> 00:32:49.592
like what can you do to

00:32:49.692 --> 00:32:52.834
incentivize the kind of the

00:32:52.913 --> 00:32:54.055
actual splitting of kind of

00:32:54.095 --> 00:32:55.336
profits and revenues with

00:32:55.355 --> 00:32:55.875
the people that are

00:32:55.895 --> 00:32:57.336
building the projects and I

00:32:57.356 --> 00:32:58.097
know obviously like dev

00:32:58.117 --> 00:32:58.917
grants and all sorts of

00:32:58.938 --> 00:33:01.380
things you know that's an

00:33:01.460 --> 00:33:04.982
option you know is there some other way

00:33:05.882 --> 00:33:07.743
so funny thing is that our

00:33:08.566 --> 00:33:10.106
um one of our founders

00:33:10.146 --> 00:33:11.108
smokey is actually very

00:33:11.189 --> 00:33:17.616
anti-grant um his uh how

00:33:17.656 --> 00:33:18.637
how explicit can we get on

00:33:18.657 --> 00:33:21.582
this podcast yeah as much

00:33:21.642 --> 00:33:23.163
as you want mate yeah let

00:33:23.203 --> 00:33:24.885
it out knows australian like

00:33:26.141 --> 00:33:27.162
Yeah, there you go.

00:33:27.281 --> 00:33:28.923
It's like drinking water, basically.

00:33:30.423 --> 00:33:33.246
So he basically thinks of it

00:33:33.465 --> 00:33:35.106
as a form of prostitution

00:33:35.627 --> 00:33:36.448
in terms of grants.

00:33:37.128 --> 00:33:37.788
If you think about it,

00:33:37.808 --> 00:33:38.769
you're forcing somebody to

00:33:38.809 --> 00:33:39.651
do something that they

00:33:39.971 --> 00:33:40.851
might not have really cared

00:33:40.912 --> 00:33:41.852
about in the first place.

00:33:42.752 --> 00:33:43.492
And they're just going to be

00:33:43.512 --> 00:33:44.693
there to be able to get the

00:33:44.733 --> 00:33:45.914
money and probably leave from that.

00:33:46.075 --> 00:33:48.457
So it's not really in line

00:33:48.477 --> 00:33:49.817
to incentive for them to be

00:33:49.857 --> 00:33:50.858
able to kind of stick around.

00:33:50.919 --> 00:33:51.078
Right.

00:33:51.949 --> 00:33:53.710
um I'll let him talk about

00:33:53.730 --> 00:33:54.830
that and I'm sure his tweet

00:33:54.871 --> 00:33:55.830
in terms of being able to

00:33:55.871 --> 00:33:57.791
kind of work on that or go

00:33:57.811 --> 00:34:00.933
in depth on that part but I

00:34:00.993 --> 00:34:02.314
believe I believe we have

00:34:02.374 --> 00:34:04.255
very strong like alignment

00:34:04.375 --> 00:34:05.816
on that manny there's

00:34:05.855 --> 00:34:07.017
plenty of rants I've gone

00:34:07.076 --> 00:34:08.797
on here previously about

00:34:09.958 --> 00:34:11.639
grants for applications

00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:12.519
that just don't make any

00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.981
fucking sense yeah sorry continue

00:34:16.275 --> 00:34:16.434
Yeah,

00:34:16.474 --> 00:34:17.556
don't get me started on like how

00:34:17.615 --> 00:34:18.737
there's not enough that's

00:34:18.757 --> 00:34:21.061
going towards open source in my opinion,

00:34:21.101 --> 00:34:21.742
like where it actually

00:34:21.762 --> 00:34:22.422
really needs to go.

00:34:24.085 --> 00:34:25.788
But to answer your question

00:34:25.807 --> 00:34:26.668
in terms of like,

00:34:27.932 --> 00:34:29.954
Um, the way that it essentially works,

00:34:29.994 --> 00:34:30.675
and this is where like

00:34:30.715 --> 00:34:31.876
proof of liquidity or POL

00:34:31.896 --> 00:34:33.036
kind of like flips its head.

00:34:33.137 --> 00:34:34.057
And this is, again,

00:34:34.097 --> 00:34:36.298
I'll reference our article on, uh,

00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.061
the fat bear thesis or whatnot.

00:34:38.121 --> 00:34:39.221
And I know where one of our

00:34:39.362 --> 00:34:40.461
technical writers, uh,

00:34:40.782 --> 00:34:41.762
is great in terms of this.

00:34:41.822 --> 00:34:43.505
And sometimes this stuff is

00:34:43.525 --> 00:34:45.405
like over my head, honestly.

00:34:45.425 --> 00:34:45.465
Um,

00:34:47.583 --> 00:34:50.405
is really the idea that the

00:34:50.525 --> 00:34:52.485
way to really incentivize

00:34:52.525 --> 00:34:54.588
dApps to be able to build

00:34:54.648 --> 00:34:57.068
on chain is to let them

00:34:57.148 --> 00:34:58.250
know that they're actually

00:34:58.309 --> 00:34:59.170
gonna be part of the chain

00:34:59.210 --> 00:35:00.210
in terms of being able to

00:35:00.271 --> 00:35:01.251
be more invested.

00:35:01.572 --> 00:35:02.713
And the way that we see that

00:35:03.052 --> 00:35:05.014
is that they actually would

00:35:05.114 --> 00:35:06.476
be able to get a portion of

00:35:06.516 --> 00:35:08.317
that TVL that kind of comes to the chain,

00:35:08.356 --> 00:35:09.496
right?

00:35:10.898 --> 00:35:11.719
Because they get to

00:35:11.798 --> 00:35:13.079
influence validators in

00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:14.420
terms of delegating, right?

00:35:15.041 --> 00:35:16.722
Every project can apply

00:35:17.222 --> 00:35:18.304
through a governance proposal,

00:35:18.344 --> 00:35:18.764
essentially.

00:35:18.784 --> 00:35:20.346
And we're seeing multiple

00:35:20.405 --> 00:35:21.306
ones that are going to be

00:35:21.367 --> 00:35:23.068
coming out to be able to

00:35:23.108 --> 00:35:24.829
create reward bolts for them.

00:35:24.849 --> 00:35:26.110
That essentially is the way

00:35:26.211 --> 00:35:27.432
for validators to kind of

00:35:27.512 --> 00:35:28.813
distribute some of those

00:35:28.853 --> 00:35:29.554
governance tokens,

00:35:29.635 --> 00:35:30.215
which they could

00:35:30.355 --> 00:35:32.117
potentially later on become liquid.

00:35:32.577 --> 00:35:33.577
But the idea is that they

00:35:33.617 --> 00:35:34.719
would influence validators

00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.061
and validators also get to

00:35:36.121 --> 00:35:37.161
influence in terms of being

00:35:37.181 --> 00:35:37.842
able to decide which

00:35:37.902 --> 00:35:38.543
projects they want to

00:35:38.563 --> 00:35:39.463
actually direct some of

00:35:39.483 --> 00:35:40.103
their emissions to.

00:35:40.204 --> 00:35:40.324
Right.

00:35:40.844 --> 00:35:42.967
So this sort of flywheel,

00:35:43.188 --> 00:35:44.548
you can kind of say that

00:35:44.748 --> 00:35:46.952
exists between and this

00:35:47.052 --> 00:35:49.094
symbiotic like relationship

00:35:49.134 --> 00:35:51.536
between like protocols and validators.

00:35:51.896 --> 00:35:53.117
And this is the thing that

00:35:53.219 --> 00:35:54.480
it requires a bit more

00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:56.181
activity because validators

00:35:56.222 --> 00:35:57.422
have to actually choose like, hey,

00:35:57.443 --> 00:35:58.443
where am I distributing

00:35:58.483 --> 00:35:59.525
some of these emissions to?

00:35:59.965 --> 00:36:01.427
I can't just like, hey, I'm going to.

00:36:02.047 --> 00:36:04.230
just I'm state I've taken money.

00:36:04.289 --> 00:36:05.010
I'm staking it.

00:36:05.251 --> 00:36:05.351
I'm,

00:36:05.431 --> 00:36:06.431
I'm going to give you a yield and

00:36:06.452 --> 00:36:06.871
that's about it.

00:36:06.911 --> 00:36:07.472
I'm not really going to

00:36:07.813 --> 00:36:09.355
incentivize the ecosystem anymore.

00:36:09.434 --> 00:36:11.175
Like I don't see any

00:36:11.215 --> 00:36:13.077
validators or making deals with, you know,

00:36:13.097 --> 00:36:14.438
like Uniswap or for that matter,

00:36:14.478 --> 00:36:16.541
another basically Uniswap,

00:36:16.581 --> 00:36:17.061
if they wanted to,

00:36:17.101 --> 00:36:18.563
they could just become a validator too.

00:36:18.603 --> 00:36:19.543
And then be able to kind of

00:36:19.764 --> 00:36:20.485
start their own shop.

00:36:20.565 --> 00:36:20.744
Right.

00:36:20.985 --> 00:36:22.405
There's nothing that's incentivizing them.

00:36:22.666 --> 00:36:23.646
That would be the only way that they,

00:36:23.947 --> 00:36:25.088
they would be able to kind

00:36:25.128 --> 00:36:25.969
of align themselves.

00:36:26.030 --> 00:36:26.170
Right.

00:36:26.210 --> 00:36:27.090
In terms of an ecosystem.

00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:27.891
Otherwise,

00:36:28.791 --> 00:36:29.932
You get the same scenario

00:36:29.952 --> 00:36:30.954
which we're having right here,

00:36:31.034 --> 00:36:32.516
whereas a lot of validators

00:36:32.556 --> 00:36:33.737
are going to different chains, right?

00:36:34.157 --> 00:36:37.041
And there's no incentive for

00:36:37.081 --> 00:36:38.862
dApp builders essentially

00:36:38.942 --> 00:36:39.762
going to different chains

00:36:39.802 --> 00:36:40.784
and being able to say like, well,

00:36:40.804 --> 00:36:42.005
I'm just going to deploy to Polygon,

00:36:42.045 --> 00:36:43.286
and then now I'm going to

00:36:43.306 --> 00:36:47.510
deploy to Optimism or to other solutions.

00:36:47.891 --> 00:36:48.672
There's nothing for me to

00:36:48.713 --> 00:36:50.775
keep me here in terms of an actual chain.

00:36:51.614 --> 00:36:52.436
And if the way that I think

00:36:52.456 --> 00:36:53.735
of it is more like we're

00:36:53.775 --> 00:36:54.896
building out our apps or

00:36:54.996 --> 00:36:55.817
app store in that sense.

00:36:56.257 --> 00:36:57.478
And this is kind of like the

00:36:57.577 --> 00:36:59.139
IP that goes behind Bear Chain,

00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:00.458
because how do you keep

00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:01.179
dApps or how do you

00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:02.199
incentivize them to stick

00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.021
around is really to be able to say, hey,

00:37:04.061 --> 00:37:05.961
you need to be more, you know,

00:37:06.541 --> 00:37:07.342
invested in that.

00:37:07.382 --> 00:37:08.302
And the way that we've done

00:37:08.322 --> 00:37:10.163
that is really through governance tokens,

00:37:10.202 --> 00:37:10.402
right?

00:37:10.782 --> 00:37:12.322
Which again, you can make liquid,

00:37:12.702 --> 00:37:13.702
but it's an interesting way

00:37:13.762 --> 00:37:14.682
for them to also,

00:37:14.784 --> 00:37:16.523
I've seen different models where they've,

00:37:16.963 --> 00:37:18.003
they can incentivize their

00:37:18.043 --> 00:37:19.023
existing user base.

00:37:19.143 --> 00:37:21.585
Like example, like gaming where, Hey,

00:37:21.625 --> 00:37:23.025
if you buy X amount of gems

00:37:23.085 --> 00:37:23.824
on my platform,

00:37:23.864 --> 00:37:25.405
I'll actually give you a receipt token,

00:37:25.465 --> 00:37:26.846
which will give you access

00:37:26.905 --> 00:37:27.945
to a reward vault,

00:37:28.306 --> 00:37:29.266
which you can kind of get

00:37:29.385 --> 00:37:30.425
yields from and actually

00:37:30.465 --> 00:37:31.387
influence in the network.

00:37:31.407 --> 00:37:32.306
So they have a win-win

00:37:32.327 --> 00:37:33.847
scenario in that aspect.

00:37:34.306 --> 00:37:35.766
Or even projects where like, hey,

00:37:36.288 --> 00:37:38.288
I'm going to offer a bribe

00:37:38.347 --> 00:37:39.467
or what we call incentives

00:37:40.407 --> 00:37:41.509
to validators to be able to

00:37:41.528 --> 00:37:43.248
give certain tokens of my

00:37:43.289 --> 00:37:45.730
project as potentially as an investment.

00:37:46.329 --> 00:37:48.170
And all I need asking is you

00:37:48.210 --> 00:37:49.170
direct some sort of those

00:37:49.230 --> 00:37:50.471
rewards in terms of BGT to

00:37:50.490 --> 00:37:51.231
my reward vault.

00:37:51.590 --> 00:37:52.271
And this is an interesting

00:37:52.311 --> 00:37:53.190
way for them to kind of

00:37:53.231 --> 00:37:54.112
jumpstart also their

00:37:54.132 --> 00:37:55.271
businesses as well in terms

00:37:55.311 --> 00:37:55.851
of different apps.

00:37:56.251 --> 00:37:58.193
So it's really aligning

00:37:58.253 --> 00:37:59.952
validators and protocols a bit more.

00:38:00.733 --> 00:38:02.235
and making it so that there

00:38:02.275 --> 00:38:03.396
are interesting things that

00:38:03.436 --> 00:38:04.297
are built on top of that

00:38:04.356 --> 00:38:06.179
ecosystem because they're more invested.

00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:08.442
And hopefully that plays into it.

00:38:08.481 --> 00:38:09.802
And I definitely recommend

00:38:09.842 --> 00:38:10.583
checking out our docs

00:38:10.603 --> 00:38:11.684
because it has all these

00:38:11.704 --> 00:38:12.585
tons of graphics that I

00:38:12.606 --> 00:38:13.746
made in terms of kind of

00:38:13.786 --> 00:38:15.389
visualizing this a little bit better too.

00:38:20.422 --> 00:38:21.603
The whole bribery side of

00:38:21.643 --> 00:38:23.565
things is very interesting.

00:38:23.945 --> 00:38:25.106
And I started talking to

00:38:25.166 --> 00:38:26.847
yourself and like other

00:38:27.047 --> 00:38:28.228
applications the other day

00:38:28.309 --> 00:38:30.170
about these bribes and it

00:38:30.210 --> 00:38:31.992
all came along because an

00:38:32.052 --> 00:38:33.333
app came to me and they're like, okay,

00:38:33.373 --> 00:38:35.976
so we're looking at what

00:38:36.016 --> 00:38:37.297
mainnet looks like and...

00:38:39.123 --> 00:38:39.304
you know,

00:38:39.344 --> 00:38:40.344
we want to get involved with some

00:38:40.364 --> 00:38:41.844
validators and we see you're like,

00:38:42.425 --> 00:38:44.186
you know, uh, up there on the thing.

00:38:44.226 --> 00:38:45.226
So we want to talk to you.

00:38:46.007 --> 00:38:47.768
And, uh, so what, what do you,

00:38:47.887 --> 00:38:48.927
what kind of bribe do you,

00:38:49.768 --> 00:38:53.811
are you looking at for some BGT to us?

00:38:53.851 --> 00:39:01.193
And I'm like, I do want a new Lambo, but,

00:39:01.333 --> 00:39:02.594
uh, so I, I mean,

00:39:02.614 --> 00:39:03.974
I called you cause I had no

00:39:04.034 --> 00:39:05.695
fucking idea what, what to, uh,

00:39:06.530 --> 00:39:07.831
like what kind of things I

00:39:07.871 --> 00:39:09.231
should be asking for but

00:39:09.371 --> 00:39:11.012
then you obviously sort of

00:39:11.072 --> 00:39:11.891
what you just said then you

00:39:11.931 --> 00:39:13.733
explain that you know the

00:39:13.773 --> 00:39:14.713
bribes is more of the

00:39:14.753 --> 00:39:16.454
incentives that they uh

00:39:16.795 --> 00:39:19.996
provide to for you know us

00:39:20.036 --> 00:39:22.077
to then want to go and um

00:39:22.556 --> 00:39:24.197
direct some bgt to them so

00:39:24.217 --> 00:39:25.297
that we can then get some

00:39:25.378 --> 00:39:26.978
of whatever that incentive

00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.521
is in our uh our wallet um

00:39:30.701 --> 00:39:33.242
but also you know off-chain bribes aren't

00:39:34.608 --> 00:39:36.309
the table either right like

00:39:36.349 --> 00:39:39.271
you know which kind of like

00:39:39.311 --> 00:39:41.032
you know it is that's kind

00:39:41.072 --> 00:39:43.152
of a situation where

00:39:45.335 --> 00:39:45.556
you know,

00:39:45.876 --> 00:39:48.097
do you guys think about how

00:39:48.157 --> 00:39:49.876
decentralization plays into

00:39:49.936 --> 00:39:50.717
this or you're not

00:39:50.757 --> 00:39:51.436
interested in the

00:39:51.677 --> 00:39:53.197
decentralization theater?

00:39:54.557 --> 00:39:56.338
Because a lot of this seems

00:39:56.398 --> 00:39:59.818
to be making deals and stuff,

00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:01.599
whether on chain and off chain,

00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:03.039
handshakes, that type of stuff,

00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:04.179
people talking to people,

00:40:04.579 --> 00:40:05.440
which is not really

00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:07.780
traditionally the scope of crypto, right?

00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:09.920
Like usually people want to

00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:12.360
be as far apart from people

00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:13.141
as possible and,

00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:17.983
for the whole theater decentralization.

00:40:18.023 --> 00:40:20.083
Yeah, I'm saying this.

00:40:20.945 --> 00:40:21.925
As somebody who's literally

00:40:21.965 --> 00:40:25.726
just written a paper for academics to say,

00:40:26.447 --> 00:40:26.987
hey, by the way,

00:40:27.027 --> 00:40:27.748
you do realize that

00:40:27.829 --> 00:40:29.268
everybody in these

00:40:29.329 --> 00:40:30.510
ecosystems talks to each

00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:31.630
other and you do realize

00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:32.590
that they're all informally

00:40:32.650 --> 00:40:33.552
colluding because it's the

00:40:33.572 --> 00:40:35.172
only way these networks can survive.

00:40:36.112 --> 00:40:37.653
That surprises people, right?

00:40:37.673 --> 00:40:38.634
But it's kind of obvious

00:40:38.653 --> 00:40:39.275
when you only have 100 nodes.

00:40:39.295 --> 00:40:39.355
And

00:40:44.175 --> 00:40:45.056
for a lot of reasons

00:40:45.117 --> 00:40:46.018
including regulatory

00:40:46.057 --> 00:40:46.918
reasons it's actually quite

00:40:46.938 --> 00:40:47.918
a good idea that that

00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:49.559
notion persists right but

00:40:49.579 --> 00:40:50.900
then this is kind of saying

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.402
the quiet bit out loud uh

00:40:53.443 --> 00:40:55.123
to some extent although I

00:40:55.143 --> 00:40:55.905
suppose to you know to pick

00:40:55.945 --> 00:40:56.746
up on another point you

00:40:56.786 --> 00:40:57.405
know and something we've

00:40:57.425 --> 00:40:58.407
talked about this podcast a

00:40:58.427 --> 00:40:59.387
lot is like you know what

00:40:59.447 --> 00:41:01.248
is you know we talk a lot

00:41:01.268 --> 00:41:02.489
about what you said just

00:41:02.610 --> 00:41:03.630
decentralization theater

00:41:03.650 --> 00:41:06.193
what is decentralization and there's um

00:41:08.693 --> 00:41:09.713
I wish I could pull it out

00:41:09.753 --> 00:41:12.235
of my massively rubbish

00:41:12.436 --> 00:41:13.617
memory at this point, but there's,

00:41:13.637 --> 00:41:15.619
there's a whole bunch of networks theory,

00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:16.559
apparently going back to

00:41:16.579 --> 00:41:19.461
like way pre all of this stuff, you know,

00:41:19.862 --> 00:41:20.543
probably when people were

00:41:20.563 --> 00:41:21.543
doing network switches or

00:41:21.563 --> 00:41:22.344
something like very

00:41:22.864 --> 00:41:24.065
actually clever and useful

00:41:24.106 --> 00:41:25.027
compared to what all of us

00:41:25.067 --> 00:41:27.528
DJs are doing that had a

00:41:27.548 --> 00:41:28.469
whole bunch of stuff about

00:41:28.530 --> 00:41:30.572
like upper bounds of nodes

00:41:30.632 --> 00:41:31.853
in a reliable network.

00:41:31.932 --> 00:41:33.634
And like the fact that all kind of,

00:41:34.394 --> 00:41:35.795
validator stuff starts to

00:41:35.856 --> 00:41:38.416
fall apart around a hundred, 175, 200.

00:41:38.416 --> 00:41:39.817
I mean,

00:41:39.836 --> 00:41:40.657
obviously there's a whole bunch of

00:41:40.677 --> 00:41:42.257
stuff in social network theories,

00:41:42.297 --> 00:41:44.699
like for humans, like apes together,

00:41:44.739 --> 00:41:47.259
strong, whatever, man, um, about how we,

00:41:47.518 --> 00:41:49.899
we fall apart over 150 people, 150, 200,

00:41:49.899 --> 00:41:50.119
250.

00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:51.400
We can't,

00:41:51.621 --> 00:41:52.820
we can't function much beyond that.

00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:55.161
Um, but there's some stuff about how,

00:41:55.262 --> 00:41:57.123
like it might, there's an upper bound of,

00:41:57.382 --> 00:41:59.503
um, peer to peer networks as well.

00:41:59.523 --> 00:41:59.563
Um,

00:42:01.402 --> 00:42:03.766
There's a really interesting

00:42:03.806 --> 00:42:06.088
case study about the Tor ecosystem,

00:42:06.188 --> 00:42:06.909
which I won't get into

00:42:06.929 --> 00:42:10.333
because that's a whole, what's it called,

00:42:11.094 --> 00:42:11.693
rabbit hole.

00:42:11.974 --> 00:42:12.275
But obviously,

00:42:12.295 --> 00:42:13.817
that's kind of un-incentivized.

00:42:14.516 --> 00:42:15.679
And there's a network of

00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:16.820
nodes and exit nodes.

00:42:18.338 --> 00:42:19.539
what they called in tour,

00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.940
the ones in the middle relay nodes,

00:42:21.722 --> 00:42:23.342
middle middleware node, middle nodes.

00:42:26.385 --> 00:42:29.487
So, so hang on before you continue on that,

00:42:30.628 --> 00:42:32.751
are you saying,

00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:37.173
are you saying that the amount of, uh,

00:42:37.333 --> 00:42:37.594
you know,

00:42:37.655 --> 00:42:39.456
validators that can exist in a

00:42:39.496 --> 00:42:40.976
network is directly related

00:42:40.996 --> 00:42:41.938
to Dunbar's number?

00:42:44.300 --> 00:42:45.581
I mean, fuck that could, I hadn't,

00:42:45.641 --> 00:42:46.862
I hadn't actually even considered it,

00:42:46.942 --> 00:42:47.963
but maybe.

00:42:49.248 --> 00:42:49.469
Yeah,

00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:51.449
it's like the digital world and the

00:42:51.489 --> 00:42:53.190
social world are so alike.

00:42:53.230 --> 00:42:56.090
Well, no, no, because in Tor nodes,

00:42:56.492 --> 00:42:58.032
it's an order of magnitude bigger.

00:42:58.411 --> 00:43:01.132
It's like between 2,000 and 7,000,

00:43:01.132 --> 00:43:02.733
depending on period of time.

00:43:04.233 --> 00:43:05.635
But getting above that,

00:43:07.054 --> 00:43:08.016
there's some theory that's

00:43:08.036 --> 00:43:08.896
gone into how you can

00:43:08.956 --> 00:43:10.476
expand that even further.

00:43:10.496 --> 00:43:10.577
Yeah.

00:43:12.608 --> 00:43:13.969
there's not a lot of agreement.

00:43:14.048 --> 00:43:15.090
And it's a really, really good,

00:43:15.170 --> 00:43:16.030
so the reason it's relevant

00:43:16.070 --> 00:43:17.210
is that the running of the

00:43:17.251 --> 00:43:18.172
Tor network is a really,

00:43:18.192 --> 00:43:20.092
really good example of a

00:43:21.153 --> 00:43:22.074
community where it's big

00:43:22.135 --> 00:43:23.195
enough that people run

00:43:23.496 --> 00:43:25.297
nodes for a whole variety of reasons.

00:43:26.521 --> 00:43:28.461
In a whole variety of jurisdictions,

00:43:28.641 --> 00:43:30.722
in a whole variety of legal situations,

00:43:31.842 --> 00:43:33.304
in a low trust environment,

00:43:33.864 --> 00:43:36.585
often semi-anonymously, you know,

00:43:37.445 --> 00:43:39.847
it has some comparison to

00:43:39.887 --> 00:43:40.606
the sort of stuff we do,

00:43:40.947 --> 00:43:42.248
except it's done fully

00:43:42.588 --> 00:43:44.168
without expectation of profit.

00:43:45.068 --> 00:43:50.434
And there is some theory behind this,

00:43:50.494 --> 00:43:51.596
like where people have studied it,

00:43:51.876 --> 00:43:52.717
that says that if you

00:43:52.777 --> 00:43:54.619
actually introduced economic,

00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:56.882
like hard money incentives into that,

00:43:57.123 --> 00:43:57.802
it would actually,

00:43:57.822 --> 00:43:59.344
the number of provided

00:43:59.425 --> 00:44:00.365
nodes would go down.

00:44:01.327 --> 00:44:01.387
Um,

00:44:01.547 --> 00:44:02.547
but unfortunately I don't have the

00:44:02.588 --> 00:44:04.009
citation to, to mind.

00:44:04.068 --> 00:44:05.168
It was just a discussion

00:44:05.208 --> 00:44:06.710
that somebody who has been

00:44:06.750 --> 00:44:07.931
in the Tory ecosystem since

00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:10.472
like the start was telling me this, like,

00:44:10.612 --> 00:44:11.773
oh yes, there's a bunch of stuff.

00:44:11.813 --> 00:44:12.313
And I was like,

00:44:12.853 --> 00:44:13.853
I need to go read about that.

00:44:13.873 --> 00:44:15.293
Cause that sounds fascinating, but, um,

00:44:15.614 --> 00:44:17.054
I don't have the citation to hand,

00:44:17.155 --> 00:44:20.317
but economic incentives, man.

00:44:20.916 --> 00:44:23.179
So the theory is that as if

00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:26.179
you introduce some form of incentives,

00:44:26.260 --> 00:44:27.760
basically decentralization

00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.402
suffers to some extent.

00:44:30.891 --> 00:44:31.713
Yes, there's two bits.

00:44:31.914 --> 00:44:33.719
One is that decentralization

00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:35.362
seems to have an upper

00:44:35.402 --> 00:44:37.989
bound in more organically

00:44:39.550 --> 00:44:41.052
But in ecosystems where it's

00:44:41.092 --> 00:44:42.931
more organically come up, right?

00:44:43.231 --> 00:44:44.092
In human civilization,

00:44:44.132 --> 00:44:45.092
we see that it has an upper

00:44:45.112 --> 00:44:45.572
bound based on

00:44:45.612 --> 00:44:48.094
communication capacity of

00:44:48.134 --> 00:44:49.315
individual nodes in the network,

00:44:49.775 --> 00:44:50.394
Dunbar's number.

00:44:51.675 --> 00:44:54.797
And in completely more meshy networks,

00:44:55.336 --> 00:44:56.297
it seems that there are

00:44:56.396 --> 00:44:57.458
also upper bounds.

00:44:59.438 --> 00:45:01.018
And then, yes, additionally,

00:45:01.099 --> 00:45:01.838
the question is,

00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:04.539
and the argument that's being had is,

00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:04.880
do...

00:45:07.121 --> 00:45:08.625
does adding incentives that

00:45:08.704 --> 00:45:09.907
are the wrong incentive

00:45:10.106 --> 00:45:11.570
actually harm a network

00:45:11.650 --> 00:45:13.713
that is functioning without incentives?

00:45:13.813 --> 00:45:14.275
And indeed,

00:45:14.375 --> 00:45:16.739
would these kind of networks

00:45:16.759 --> 00:45:17.960
function without incentives?

00:45:20.717 --> 00:45:22.159
There's a whole actual

00:45:22.278 --> 00:45:23.539
argument that says you can

00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:25.481
run a payment network without incentives,

00:45:25.541 --> 00:45:30.143
which that's a whole other thing.

00:45:30.164 --> 00:45:31.704
I think it might be true, actually,

00:45:31.724 --> 00:45:32.264
incidentally,

00:45:32.385 --> 00:45:34.146
but it requires a whole

00:45:34.166 --> 00:45:34.746
bunch of things that we

00:45:34.786 --> 00:45:35.567
don't currently have,

00:45:35.726 --> 00:45:38.369
like very light clients, blah, blah,

00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:38.588
blah.

00:45:38.909 --> 00:45:40.550
So then is Ethereum the

00:45:40.710 --> 00:45:43.231
outlier in that thesis, then?

00:45:43.692 --> 00:45:44.972
Oh, Ethereum is... Yeah,

00:45:45.032 --> 00:45:47.193
I think Ethereum is a technological freak,

00:45:47.414 --> 00:45:47.813
for sure.

00:45:48.293 --> 00:45:48.454
Like...

00:45:49.903 --> 00:45:50.583
It's like, you know,

00:45:50.623 --> 00:45:51.864
like any piece of

00:45:51.925 --> 00:45:52.865
technology where it's like

00:45:52.885 --> 00:45:54.025
the exception rather than the rule.

00:45:54.507 --> 00:45:55.487
I think if you assume every

00:45:55.527 --> 00:45:56.387
blockchain is going to be

00:45:56.547 --> 00:45:57.507
like Ethereum or if you

00:45:57.547 --> 00:46:00.309
assume Ethereum is like, you know,

00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:01.070
whatever, man.

00:46:01.271 --> 00:46:04.652
Like,

00:46:04.932 --> 00:46:06.092
if you assume Ethereum is a template

00:46:06.112 --> 00:46:07.094
from where we're going, you know,

00:46:07.353 --> 00:46:07.753
it's not.

00:46:07.914 --> 00:46:09.215
It's being... It's a...

00:46:14.284 --> 00:46:15.003
It's an interesting

00:46:15.485 --> 00:46:16.405
technological experiment

00:46:16.425 --> 00:46:17.505
that got out of hand and is

00:46:17.545 --> 00:46:19.086
now being grandfathered

00:46:19.146 --> 00:46:19.927
into the traditional

00:46:19.987 --> 00:46:22.748
economic system by trad

00:46:22.789 --> 00:46:25.791
boomer finance bros who see

00:46:25.811 --> 00:46:26.710
that it's a way of playing

00:46:26.731 --> 00:46:27.771
around with a bunch of

00:46:27.811 --> 00:46:28.873
stuff without the same

00:46:28.932 --> 00:46:30.032
regulatory controls they

00:46:30.052 --> 00:46:31.853
would have for brushing

00:46:31.873 --> 00:46:32.954
their fucking teeth in the morning.

00:46:34.016 --> 00:46:34.976
They can't move from one

00:46:35.016 --> 00:46:35.717
part of the office to

00:46:35.757 --> 00:46:37.297
another part of the office without

00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:40.000
filing a log form saying

00:46:40.039 --> 00:46:40.900
that this nominally

00:46:40.940 --> 00:46:42.382
independent part of the building,

00:46:42.422 --> 00:46:43.742
which is one subsidiary,

00:46:44.943 --> 00:46:46.224
is firewalled from this part,

00:46:46.264 --> 00:46:47.786
but the toilet's in that

00:46:47.846 --> 00:46:48.706
part of the building and my

00:46:48.746 --> 00:46:49.608
desk is over here.

00:46:50.288 --> 00:46:51.608
I'm actually not even fully

00:46:51.668 --> 00:46:52.369
joking about this.

00:46:52.409 --> 00:46:53.530
There are some companies

00:46:53.550 --> 00:46:54.751
that have that kind of paperwork.

00:46:55.773 --> 00:46:56.914
Luckily, I've never worked for one.

00:46:57.534 --> 00:46:59.436
Or governments.

00:47:00.076 --> 00:47:01.177
These things happen, right?

00:47:01.217 --> 00:47:02.097
Regulations, regulations.

00:47:02.777 --> 00:47:03.398
But then these same

00:47:03.458 --> 00:47:05.820
organizations can just be like, hey, wait,

00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:06.862
we can just mint a shitcoin?

00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:10.262
yeah yeah depending on

00:47:10.302 --> 00:47:11.503
regulate depending where

00:47:11.523 --> 00:47:12.744
you are in the world yeah

00:47:12.784 --> 00:47:13.885
sure in this country the

00:47:13.945 --> 00:47:14.925
answer is if you've got

00:47:14.947 --> 00:47:17.148
good enough lawyers what's

00:47:17.168 --> 00:47:18.269
going to happen to you like

00:47:18.349 --> 00:47:19.451
it's boys will be boys as

00:47:19.471 --> 00:47:20.512
long as you don't advertise

00:47:20.592 --> 00:47:21.313
it and if you're going to

00:47:21.373 --> 00:47:23.315
advertise it you apply to

00:47:23.335 --> 00:47:24.235
the financial conduct

00:47:24.255 --> 00:47:26.898
authority and get regulator

00:47:26.918 --> 00:47:27.539
and if you're already

00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:29.081
regulated by the fca then

00:47:29.101 --> 00:47:29.862
you're you're already

00:47:29.922 --> 00:47:31.384
regulated by the fca I mean

00:47:33.757 --> 00:47:34.717
it's just about risk map

00:47:34.757 --> 00:47:35.539
risk tolerance at that

00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:38.278
point right um so I did it

00:47:38.358 --> 00:47:38.960
but that's it's a

00:47:38.980 --> 00:47:40.159
digression it's not really

00:47:40.179 --> 00:47:41.099
related to protocol and

00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:46.340
liquidity is it it

00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:47.402
definitely went off on a

00:47:47.541 --> 00:47:50.081
solid fucking tangent I'm

00:47:50.242 --> 00:47:51.041
I'm gonna be creating

00:47:51.121 --> 00:47:52.563
youtube snippets on this

00:47:52.623 --> 00:47:53.483
I'm just the number of

00:47:53.523 --> 00:47:54.902
tangents that are for this

00:47:55.163 --> 00:47:57.023
for this podcast 100 percent

00:47:58.956 --> 00:47:59.356
Yeah,

00:47:59.436 --> 00:48:01.056
we don't really have a line that we

00:48:01.096 --> 00:48:01.996
walk here.

00:48:02.436 --> 00:48:03.797
It's like when they get you

00:48:03.876 --> 00:48:05.277
out of the car when you're

00:48:05.297 --> 00:48:06.536
hammered drunk and you have

00:48:06.577 --> 00:48:07.257
to do the test.

00:48:07.858 --> 00:48:08.557
This is the test.

00:48:09.277 --> 00:48:10.418
Totally happens to me every day.

00:48:10.438 --> 00:48:10.838
That's right.

00:48:11.018 --> 00:48:12.358
Drunk driving all the time.

00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:14.759
Do you even own a car, Manny?

00:48:14.778 --> 00:48:15.719
You live in the city, right?

00:48:16.699 --> 00:48:19.960
I do, but not in this country.

00:48:21.500 --> 00:48:25.661
I own a car in Turkey, basically.

00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:26.561
Yeah.

00:48:28.708 --> 00:48:29.869
Okay.

00:48:30.608 --> 00:48:31.550
Yeah.

00:48:31.730 --> 00:48:34.331
That sounds so sketchy.

00:48:34.431 --> 00:48:37.952
I own a mule van in Turkey or something.

00:48:38.514 --> 00:48:41.175
He's like, yeah, I bought a car in Turkey.

00:48:41.255 --> 00:48:41.735
It's good.

00:48:41.755 --> 00:48:43.835
It's cheap on Facebook marketplace.

00:48:44.036 --> 00:48:45.297
That's what I've got.

00:48:46.318 --> 00:48:49.219
I don't like that one on

00:48:49.259 --> 00:48:50.059
Fire and Walk Away.

00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:51.079
I had to get out of that one.

00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:52.201
But yeah, I haven't had one since.

00:48:54.784 --> 00:48:55.485
For reference,

00:48:55.565 --> 00:48:56.869
I've lived in Turkey for a

00:48:56.929 --> 00:48:57.731
number of years too,

00:48:57.811 --> 00:48:58.815
and my wife is Turkish,

00:48:58.855 --> 00:49:00.239
and so that's the reason

00:49:00.278 --> 00:49:01.601
why we own a car in Turkey.

00:49:04.751 --> 00:49:06.434
um so does that mean like do

00:49:06.454 --> 00:49:07.474
you have a house in turkey

00:49:07.494 --> 00:49:08.856
still or are you just you

00:49:08.896 --> 00:49:10.597
know is it I imagine that

00:49:10.637 --> 00:49:12.139
there's this you know

00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:13.559
nicely set up house with

00:49:13.619 --> 00:49:14.981
the uh land cruiser in the

00:49:15.001 --> 00:49:17.202
driveway uh just waiting

00:49:17.244 --> 00:49:18.284
for you to come back to it

00:49:18.425 --> 00:49:20.226
one day you know sort of

00:49:20.246 --> 00:49:21.186
just comes out every

00:49:21.226 --> 00:49:22.228
morning and looks down the

00:49:22.268 --> 00:49:23.128
street and up the street

00:49:23.148 --> 00:49:24.449
and it's like yeah goes

00:49:24.489 --> 00:49:25.911
back in just waiting

00:49:27.735 --> 00:49:29.858
Uh, we still have a place in Turkey.

00:49:29.878 --> 00:49:29.918
Uh,

00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:33.163
my wife and I go back and forth between

00:49:33.222 --> 00:49:34.784
Canada and enter in

00:49:35.106 --> 00:49:36.487
specifically a place called Antalya.

00:49:36.527 --> 00:49:37.429
That's where we have our place.

00:49:38.289 --> 00:49:39.871
Uh, um, which is really, really nice.

00:49:39.891 --> 00:49:41.934
Uh, but I went,

00:49:41.994 --> 00:49:42.976
I went on holiday there a

00:49:43.016 --> 00:49:44.157
few times when I was a kid.

00:49:44.498 --> 00:49:45.117
That's very nice.

00:49:45.539 --> 00:49:47.280
There's a lot of people from

00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:48.360
the UK that goes there

00:49:48.699 --> 00:49:49.601
right now in my area,

00:49:49.641 --> 00:49:50.900
there's probably more

00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:51.902
Russians and Ukrainians

00:49:51.942 --> 00:49:52.922
because of the war though.

00:49:52.943 --> 00:49:53.663
Uh,

00:49:53.722 --> 00:49:54.864
but there is a lot of people that go

00:49:54.923 --> 00:49:56.344
down from, come down from the UK.

00:49:57.045 --> 00:49:59.846
Um, but yeah, as far as it goes, like, uh,

00:50:00.266 --> 00:50:02.286
we go half the year here,

00:50:02.327 --> 00:50:04.327
half the year there, whatnot, um,

00:50:04.608 --> 00:50:06.168
mostly for winter because it's just,

00:50:06.349 --> 00:50:07.170
it's nicer there and it

00:50:07.230 --> 00:50:07.949
makes it a little easier

00:50:07.989 --> 00:50:09.210
also to go to other

00:50:09.291 --> 00:50:10.231
European countries too.

00:50:10.931 --> 00:50:11.012
So.

00:50:14.463 --> 00:50:15.724
But the plan is to go back

00:50:15.824 --> 00:50:19.027
there permanently relatively soon.

00:50:19.706 --> 00:50:20.047
Okay.

00:50:20.288 --> 00:50:21.528
So we're going to get into

00:50:22.449 --> 00:50:25.612
the tax conversation now.

00:50:25.652 --> 00:50:26.311
Look, man,

00:50:26.331 --> 00:50:27.512
I've been dancing around it the

00:50:27.532 --> 00:50:29.034
whole time here.

00:50:29.213 --> 00:50:31.076
We need to talk about tax at some point.

00:50:31.115 --> 00:50:32.416
So it's totally tax time.

00:50:35.023 --> 00:50:35.184
Um,

00:50:35.764 --> 00:50:37.644
so Turkey is an interesting country

00:50:37.704 --> 00:50:40.545
because, um, there is no tax on crypto.

00:50:40.985 --> 00:50:41.106
Um,

00:50:41.126 --> 00:50:43.206
it doesn't consider it a store of value

00:50:43.246 --> 00:50:43.746
in that sense.

00:50:44.206 --> 00:50:46.126
It's illegal to accept it as a,

00:50:46.226 --> 00:50:47.628
like as a business to be able to, Hey,

00:50:47.688 --> 00:50:48.467
like I'm going to accept

00:50:48.487 --> 00:50:49.688
this as a currency, et cetera.

00:50:50.268 --> 00:50:50.347
Um,

00:50:50.427 --> 00:50:53.068
but there's a weird gray area where you,

00:50:53.548 --> 00:50:53.668
um,

00:50:53.929 --> 00:50:55.269
can accept crypto and you don't have

00:50:55.289 --> 00:50:55.670
to claim it.

00:50:56.570 --> 00:50:57.692
um because it's not

00:50:57.711 --> 00:50:58.932
considered money so there's

00:50:58.952 --> 00:50:59.873
a lot of centralized

00:50:59.914 --> 00:51:01.054
exchanges that exist there

00:51:01.175 --> 00:51:05.858
so think of uh um bybit okx

00:51:06.278 --> 00:51:07.800
um you know binance all of

00:51:07.820 --> 00:51:08.820
them kind of are there in

00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:10.202
terms of the market and

00:51:10.581 --> 00:51:12.003
there's this weird stat I i

00:51:12.023 --> 00:51:12.884
don't know where it is so I

00:51:12.943 --> 00:51:13.525
don't know if it's

00:51:13.684 --> 00:51:14.565
completely accurate but

00:51:15.025 --> 00:51:16.126
said half the population of

00:51:16.166 --> 00:51:18.389
turkey um hat holds crypto

00:51:18.869 --> 00:51:20.150
which is like 40 million

00:51:20.190 --> 00:51:21.030
people if you think about it

00:51:23.351 --> 00:51:24.811
And that's partly because of

00:51:24.851 --> 00:51:26.052
the inflation that they're dealing with,

00:51:26.112 --> 00:51:27.413
right?

00:51:27.773 --> 00:51:28.052
Yes.

00:51:29.713 --> 00:51:30.793
But yeah, as far as it goes,

00:51:30.974 --> 00:51:33.715
I'm probably going to be moving.

00:51:33.735 --> 00:51:34.494
I'm going to becoming a

00:51:34.534 --> 00:51:38.655
Turkish citizen and

00:51:38.795 --> 00:51:39.797
hopefully take advantage of

00:51:39.836 --> 00:51:41.376
those taxes in terms of not

00:51:41.416 --> 00:51:42.878
paying tax on crypto in Turkey,

00:51:42.898 --> 00:51:43.318
basically.

00:51:45.958 --> 00:51:47.579
And there's no limit to that number.

00:51:47.739 --> 00:51:49.039
That could be 100% of your income.

00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:50.559
So therefore, you pay no tax on anything.

00:51:51.916 --> 00:51:52.217
Agree.

00:51:52.356 --> 00:51:52.637
Yeah.

00:51:52.876 --> 00:51:54.458
And the interesting thing is

00:51:54.838 --> 00:51:57.858
the other interesting thing,

00:51:57.898 --> 00:51:58.938
and I don't know how it is

00:51:58.958 --> 00:52:01.518
for other countries or how

00:52:01.539 --> 00:52:02.259
it is in the UK,

00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:04.159
like in Canada and the US,

00:52:04.179 --> 00:52:04.940
you have to file your taxes

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:05.860
every year or whatnot.

00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:09.641
In Turkey, if you don't make any money,

00:52:10.521 --> 00:52:11.661
you just don't file your taxes.

00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:13.081
It's as simple as that.

00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.222
So there's like less

00:52:15.262 --> 00:52:16.382
paperwork involved as well.

00:52:17.442 --> 00:52:19.603
And crypto profits would be

00:52:19.623 --> 00:52:21.083
classed as not making any money.

00:52:23.088 --> 00:52:23.489
Exactly.

00:52:23.989 --> 00:52:25.028
It's not money.

00:52:25.068 --> 00:52:25.550
It's fictional.

00:52:26.670 --> 00:52:29.170
So you're never going to file an attack.

00:52:29.451 --> 00:52:31.251
What about on the cash side of things?

00:52:31.271 --> 00:52:32.610
So obviously you've got your crypto,

00:52:32.650 --> 00:52:36.231
but it goes in and out of a

00:52:36.311 --> 00:52:37.351
centralized exchange.

00:52:37.391 --> 00:52:41.833
So when you cash out money

00:52:41.873 --> 00:52:43.353
into real money,

00:52:44.869 --> 00:52:48.311
Turkish lira, is that, you know,

00:52:48.331 --> 00:52:49.072
do you have to keep some

00:52:49.112 --> 00:52:50.052
sort of cash accounting?

00:52:50.072 --> 00:52:52.992
Do they account that as like a cash flow,

00:52:53.032 --> 00:52:54.833
profits, income, nothing like that?

00:52:54.853 --> 00:52:55.954
They're like, that's funny money.

00:52:58.195 --> 00:52:59.076
Not financial advice.

00:52:59.516 --> 00:53:00.456
I should preface this off.

00:53:01.677 --> 00:53:04.338
But we don't have any financial advice.

00:53:04.717 --> 00:53:06.998
We talk about it all the time,

00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:08.380
but it's definitely not advice.

00:53:09.688 --> 00:53:09.907
Um,

00:53:10.407 --> 00:53:11.648
there is a couple of accountants that I

00:53:11.688 --> 00:53:13.429
deal with in terms of, uh,

00:53:13.809 --> 00:53:14.429
what that looks like.

00:53:14.449 --> 00:53:15.730
Cause, uh,

00:53:16.030 --> 00:53:17.670
but as far as it goes from my

00:53:17.690 --> 00:53:18.210
understanding,

00:53:18.251 --> 00:53:19.231
and I could be completely

00:53:19.271 --> 00:53:20.751
wrong in terms of this exact term,

00:53:20.791 --> 00:53:22.231
but it'd be the akin to

00:53:22.291 --> 00:53:23.632
like a friend giving you money.

00:53:23.652 --> 00:53:24.492
Um,

00:53:24.552 --> 00:53:26.014
so like you wouldn't pay taxes on a

00:53:26.054 --> 00:53:26.753
friend giving you money

00:53:26.813 --> 00:53:27.494
back in that sense,

00:53:27.514 --> 00:53:28.333
or putting in your account.

00:53:28.815 --> 00:53:29.795
And we know I can,

00:53:30.094 --> 00:53:32.016
I can tell you that over here,

00:53:32.195 --> 00:53:33.536
if a friend gives you money,

00:53:33.695 --> 00:53:35.257
you're probably paying tax on it.

00:53:35.277 --> 00:53:36.197
If it's a fair quant.

00:53:37.418 --> 00:53:37.617
Yeah.

00:53:39.664 --> 00:53:40.025
Yeah.

00:53:40.445 --> 00:53:41.326
I think they've cracked down

00:53:41.365 --> 00:53:43.606
even on the U S with like, uh, what's the,

00:53:43.726 --> 00:53:44.608
that cash app that

00:53:44.628 --> 00:53:46.329
everybody like Venmo not as well.

00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:47.210
Yeah.

00:53:47.489 --> 00:53:47.670
Yeah.

00:53:49.027 --> 00:53:51.009
So, but yeah, it's a little bit,

00:53:51.208 --> 00:53:51.750
that's where I say it's

00:53:51.769 --> 00:53:53.010
like Turkey is a little bit

00:53:53.050 --> 00:53:53.550
weird in that sense.

00:53:53.570 --> 00:53:54.811
Like it's a very gray area

00:53:54.871 --> 00:53:55.692
for some of these things.

00:53:56.291 --> 00:54:00.454
So yeah, to some extent,

00:54:00.494 --> 00:54:01.315
like you basically,

00:54:01.594 --> 00:54:03.536
you would cash it out into

00:54:03.596 --> 00:54:06.077
Fiat and then you could

00:54:06.117 --> 00:54:08.077
store it with a local bank

00:54:08.117 --> 00:54:09.498
in terms of they'll have US

00:54:09.539 --> 00:54:10.159
accounts as well.

00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:12.179
But yeah,

00:54:12.561 --> 00:54:14.262
it's legal in the sense that I

00:54:14.302 --> 00:54:15.041
know quite a few people

00:54:15.061 --> 00:54:16.202
that are doing as well.

00:54:17.023 --> 00:54:18.443
or they just cash out when they need to.

00:54:19.565 --> 00:54:20.286
And if they want to run them

00:54:20.306 --> 00:54:20.885
through businesses,

00:54:20.925 --> 00:54:21.947
then that's when they'll

00:54:21.967 --> 00:54:23.208
probably have to pay taxes on it.

00:54:23.788 --> 00:54:24.568
But as an individual,

00:54:24.608 --> 00:54:25.208
they shouldn't have to.

00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:28.311
So over in Turkey,

00:54:28.351 --> 00:54:31.193
they've got quite a severe

00:54:31.614 --> 00:54:33.255
inflation problem at the moment, right?

00:54:33.516 --> 00:54:36.918
So you mentioned US dollars.

00:54:36.938 --> 00:54:38.380
So are a lot of banks over

00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:40.141
there offering US dollar

00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:41.282
bank accounts as an

00:54:41.342 --> 00:54:43.402
alternative currency to the lira,

00:54:43.443 --> 00:54:43.744
given that

00:54:44.702 --> 00:54:47.264
I know that they, I'm sorry,

00:54:47.284 --> 00:54:49.005
this is getting a bit off on the tangent,

00:54:49.025 --> 00:54:51.766
but I'm sure that the

00:54:51.867 --> 00:54:52.927
Turkish government were

00:54:52.967 --> 00:54:54.409
giving incentives for

00:54:54.469 --> 00:54:55.969
people to save their money

00:54:56.489 --> 00:54:58.050
and not spend it in lira, right?

00:54:58.090 --> 00:55:00.773
Like they were inflation plus, you know,

00:55:00.992 --> 00:55:02.034
as whatever the inflation is,

00:55:02.054 --> 00:55:02.873
we'll give you that plus

00:55:02.934 --> 00:55:03.855
another incentive,

00:55:04.675 --> 00:55:06.376
which will just print to

00:55:06.416 --> 00:55:07.436
keep your money in the bank.

00:55:08.458 --> 00:55:09.119
It was crazy.

00:55:09.259 --> 00:55:10.599
Like, so we, in Turkey,

00:55:11.630 --> 00:55:13.530
In Turkey, it's called Mevduat.

00:55:14.150 --> 00:55:15.452
And basically what it is at

00:55:15.572 --> 00:55:17.672
one point when we had money

00:55:17.713 --> 00:55:18.572
in it too as well,

00:55:19.554 --> 00:55:22.534
it was somewhere of like 40 or 50% APY,

00:55:23.195 --> 00:55:23.856
which was crazy.

00:55:24.436 --> 00:55:25.797
And it wasn't like locked.

00:55:26.237 --> 00:55:27.958
You could like withdraw it every month.

00:55:28.458 --> 00:55:29.159
You just had to keep it a

00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:30.278
minimum of like 30 days.

00:55:31.340 --> 00:55:33.561
But if you kept it in the local currency,

00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:34.960
you can still get some of

00:55:34.981 --> 00:55:35.541
the rates really,

00:55:35.561 --> 00:55:36.561
really high right now in

00:55:36.601 --> 00:55:37.902
terms of getting returns.

00:55:38.503 --> 00:55:39.784
At one point we were we had

00:55:39.824 --> 00:55:40.884
enough money in it that was

00:55:40.903 --> 00:55:42.103
just it was paying for our

00:55:42.143 --> 00:55:44.144
rent because because of

00:55:44.224 --> 00:55:45.885
some rent restrictions in

00:55:45.905 --> 00:55:47.126
terms of for things.

00:55:47.706 --> 00:55:49.547
But yeah, it's crazy.

00:55:49.626 --> 00:55:51.628
And but a lot of people are

00:55:52.887 --> 00:55:55.088
they have a mistrust in terms of how,

00:55:55.329 --> 00:55:55.528
you know,

00:55:56.168 --> 00:55:57.929
financially Turkey has been

00:55:57.949 --> 00:55:59.630
handling things and they

00:55:59.670 --> 00:56:00.530
basically have just been

00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:02.670
hedging their bet and buying USDC or,

00:56:02.690 --> 00:56:05.731
you know, USDT mostly primarily, um,

00:56:05.811 --> 00:56:06.992
to kind of have us dollars

00:56:07.052 --> 00:56:07.851
or have access to it.

00:56:07.871 --> 00:56:09.193
Because one of the issues is

00:56:09.213 --> 00:56:10.552
that you can have it with a

00:56:10.592 --> 00:56:11.514
bank that's local,

00:56:11.574 --> 00:56:12.793
but they're going to charge

00:56:12.833 --> 00:56:14.614
you crazy amount of fees.

00:56:14.634 --> 00:56:15.255
They might have more

00:56:15.295 --> 00:56:16.255
restrictions and actually

00:56:16.295 --> 00:56:17.175
Turkey actually made it.

00:56:17.554 --> 00:56:18.335
If you're familiar with a

00:56:18.376 --> 00:56:19.615
service called like wise or

00:56:19.655 --> 00:56:21.036
some of these proxies that

00:56:21.056 --> 00:56:22.697
do exchanges like really, really cheap,

00:56:22.717 --> 00:56:22.757
um,

00:56:23.257 --> 00:56:24.277
They've they've had to shut

00:56:24.318 --> 00:56:25.378
down for Turkey because one

00:56:25.398 --> 00:56:26.719
of the requirements is that

00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:27.940
they they kind of I think

00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:29.081
it was they had to have a

00:56:29.141 --> 00:56:30.541
physical presence in Turkey.

00:56:31.581 --> 00:56:32.762
And a lot of companies are like, no,

00:56:32.802 --> 00:56:33.623
we're not going to do that.

00:56:33.764 --> 00:56:33.943
Right.

00:56:34.543 --> 00:56:35.585
So they ended up saying, OK, well,

00:56:35.605 --> 00:56:36.525
then you don't meet the restrictions.

00:56:36.545 --> 00:56:37.505
So we're going to shut you down.

00:56:37.525 --> 00:56:39.146
So you can't you don't have

00:56:39.166 --> 00:56:40.728
a means to be able to do so.

00:56:41.027 --> 00:56:41.949
Everybody has to go through

00:56:42.128 --> 00:56:43.128
traditional banking to be

00:56:43.148 --> 00:56:44.630
able to kind of have a U.S.

00:56:44.670 --> 00:56:45.110
accountant.

00:56:46.090 --> 00:56:47.311
You'd basically have the

00:56:47.351 --> 00:56:48.911
whole Swift thing and the

00:56:48.952 --> 00:56:50.112
fees to be able to kind of

00:56:50.132 --> 00:56:51.172
transfer to another country

00:56:51.192 --> 00:56:52.793
are still quite high.

00:56:53.193 --> 00:56:55.052
So crypto is like the best

00:56:55.112 --> 00:56:56.373
way for them to kind of to

00:56:56.393 --> 00:56:57.094
leverage that rate.

00:56:59.333 --> 00:57:00.653
So have you had a meeting

00:57:00.713 --> 00:57:01.755
with the Turkish government

00:57:01.775 --> 00:57:03.695
yet and floated, you know,

00:57:03.795 --> 00:57:07.195
just bearer as a alternative currency?

00:57:07.356 --> 00:57:07.615
Yeah.

00:57:09.757 --> 00:57:11.938
I mean, that's a possibility.

00:57:11.958 --> 00:57:12.297
I mean,

00:57:12.358 --> 00:57:14.739
we have our stable coin called Honey.

00:57:14.838 --> 00:57:17.320
So I'd be kind of curious.

00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:20.161
Obviously, Turkey is like a weird place,

00:57:20.221 --> 00:57:20.442
man.

00:57:20.481 --> 00:57:20.902
Like it's...

00:57:22.402 --> 00:57:23.724
I've heard stories of people

00:57:23.985 --> 00:57:25.065
selling their houses and

00:57:25.365 --> 00:57:26.766
betting all in on crypto

00:57:27.367 --> 00:57:28.688
and losing it all too.

00:57:30.228 --> 00:57:32.050
But also the ecosystem of

00:57:32.090 --> 00:57:33.632
them just needing it.

00:57:33.751 --> 00:57:36.114
I tweeted this out the other

00:57:36.134 --> 00:57:40.677
day where somebody was going to buy a car,

00:57:41.378 --> 00:57:42.117
but they were trying to get

00:57:42.157 --> 00:57:42.998
a loan for a car.

00:57:43.780 --> 00:57:45.041
And the interest rate,

00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:46.581
and this was the discounted

00:57:46.641 --> 00:57:48.282
rate because they were a business,

00:57:48.983 --> 00:57:51.050
was 50%.

00:57:51.050 --> 00:57:53.132
uh on a on a car loan and

00:57:53.172 --> 00:57:54.032
they were like this is

00:57:54.072 --> 00:57:55.313
ridiculous so what they

00:57:55.333 --> 00:57:56.414
ended up doing was they're

00:57:56.434 --> 00:57:57.235
like hey I actually have

00:57:57.255 --> 00:57:58.675
some crypto I'm just going

00:57:58.695 --> 00:58:00.456
to take a loan on ave they

00:58:00.476 --> 00:58:01.217
did that and they bought

00:58:01.237 --> 00:58:01.958
their car because the

00:58:02.057 --> 00:58:03.298
interest rate was like 10

00:58:03.298 --> 00:58:05.420
times cheaper basically uh

00:58:05.740 --> 00:58:07.222
so it's it's it's funny

00:58:07.242 --> 00:58:09.322
that there's um that

00:58:09.362 --> 00:58:10.764
there's like this missing

00:58:11.164 --> 00:58:13.226
like there's this gap of

00:58:13.266 --> 00:58:15.007
opportunity uh also for

00:58:15.027 --> 00:58:17.027
blockchains and uh I have

00:58:17.047 --> 00:58:19.329
this like weird hypothesis that um

00:58:20.148 --> 00:58:21.548
that validators at one point,

00:58:22.849 --> 00:58:24.050
in emerging markets at least,

00:58:25.170 --> 00:58:26.550
have an opportunity to become banks.

00:58:27.331 --> 00:58:27.931
Because I think it's an

00:58:27.990 --> 00:58:29.132
interesting opportunity.

00:58:29.172 --> 00:58:30.452
Because if you think about it,

00:58:31.632 --> 00:58:34.293
you're effectively printing money, right?

00:58:35.454 --> 00:58:36.534
And that money probably is

00:58:36.574 --> 00:58:37.394
not going to be that great

00:58:37.414 --> 00:58:38.556
in terms of like, you know,

00:58:39.235 --> 00:58:40.396
Western countries or whatnot.

00:58:40.476 --> 00:58:43.557
But that money is still in terms of loans,

00:58:43.637 --> 00:58:44.717
in terms of arbitrage,

00:58:44.757 --> 00:58:47.338
in terms of like you offering it for a,

00:58:47.518 --> 00:58:48.719
you know, an emerging market.

00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:49.820
It's an interesting

00:58:49.860 --> 00:58:52.061
opportunity for you to kind of say, hey,

00:58:52.101 --> 00:58:52.282
well,

00:58:52.461 --> 00:58:54.061
I can become a financial institution.

00:58:54.483 --> 00:58:54.663
Right.

00:58:54.782 --> 00:58:56.362
And be able to offer these

00:58:56.443 --> 00:58:57.804
services that would be

00:58:57.824 --> 00:58:59.264
competing to traditional

00:58:59.304 --> 00:58:59.965
banking services.

00:59:01.581 --> 00:59:02.563
Right, yeah.

00:59:02.583 --> 00:59:04.144
It's not money and it's not a bank, is it?

00:59:04.164 --> 00:59:05.146
Because I could attack it via finality.

00:59:05.206 --> 00:59:05.686
So I could get 33.4% of a

00:59:05.706 --> 00:59:06.347
blockchain to say, just

00:59:17.398 --> 00:59:19.400
just blacklist any tx coming

00:59:19.420 --> 00:59:20.699
through from that validator

00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:22.681
I could do because it's

00:59:22.702 --> 00:59:23.802
fundamentally still a low

00:59:23.822 --> 00:59:25.244
trust environment right so

00:59:25.264 --> 00:59:27.605
the the the opportunities

00:59:27.644 --> 00:59:28.766
for this stuff in the

00:59:28.865 --> 00:59:30.306
current state of where we

00:59:30.467 --> 00:59:32.889
are with low trust systems

00:59:32.969 --> 00:59:33.769
right which is that they're

00:59:34.289 --> 00:59:36.012
sort of low trust but

00:59:36.032 --> 00:59:37.853
they're in a trusted enough

00:59:37.893 --> 00:59:38.853
situation that's actually

00:59:38.934 --> 00:59:40.235
quite easy to engineer

00:59:40.494 --> 00:59:41.735
system level collusion

00:59:42.893 --> 00:59:44.492
is that you are attackable

00:59:44.753 --> 00:59:46.574
constantly at a systemic

00:59:46.634 --> 00:59:48.193
level and an individual level,

00:59:48.313 --> 00:59:50.875
which is not, it's,

00:59:50.994 --> 00:59:52.394
it's not possible on

00:59:52.434 --> 00:59:54.934
Ethereum because of economic finality,

00:59:55.114 --> 00:59:55.335
right?

00:59:55.554 --> 00:59:57.056
The TVL is too high chain.

00:59:57.096 --> 00:59:57.715
Can't sustain it.

00:59:58.155 --> 00:59:59.675
Although people said that

00:59:59.715 --> 01:00:01.036
about it pre the Dow hack.

01:00:01.436 --> 01:00:02.356
And that was still,

01:00:02.617 --> 01:00:03.996
still worth a few quid back then,

01:00:04.056 --> 01:00:04.677
as I recall.

01:00:05.677 --> 01:00:06.456
Um, and you know,

01:00:06.898 --> 01:00:08.018
still reverted the ledges,

01:00:08.038 --> 01:00:09.018
still change history.

01:00:10.385 --> 01:00:11.166
Could that happen again?

01:00:11.545 --> 01:00:12.166
Probably not.

01:00:12.447 --> 01:00:13.367
Probably not on Ethereum.

01:00:13.447 --> 01:00:14.668
Could it happen on most other chains?

01:00:14.708 --> 01:00:15.309
Yeah, probably.

01:00:15.329 --> 01:00:17.672
Oh, I agree.

01:00:17.692 --> 01:00:18.652
I don't think it's perfect.

01:00:19.713 --> 01:00:20.213
For sure.

01:00:20.614 --> 01:00:21.275
I think it's just that

01:00:21.315 --> 01:00:22.777
the... I think it's quite a...

01:00:25.655 --> 01:00:27.115
As a validator business who

01:00:27.135 --> 01:00:28.416
would like to not get regulated,

01:00:28.436 --> 01:00:30.918
I think it's a dangerous

01:00:30.938 --> 01:00:32.360
line of argument that I

01:00:33.221 --> 01:00:34.961
very strongly like to point

01:00:35.121 --> 01:00:37.063
out to regulators in the UK

01:00:37.123 --> 01:00:39.005
that our business model is

01:00:39.246 --> 01:00:42.188
an emerging market where

01:00:42.248 --> 01:00:44.630
the assets can be lost by acts of God,

01:00:44.730 --> 01:00:46.050
by token governance,

01:00:46.150 --> 01:00:47.731
by random degens on the

01:00:47.771 --> 01:00:49.193
internet deciding to delete it all.

01:00:49.273 --> 01:00:50.293
And we should not be

01:00:50.454 --> 01:00:51.775
regulated like a bank and

01:00:51.795 --> 01:00:53.096
we should not be treated like a bank.

01:00:53.135 --> 01:00:53.556
And in fact,

01:00:54.375 --> 01:00:55.554
know well I mean there's a

01:00:55.594 --> 01:00:56.755
whole there's a whole

01:00:56.775 --> 01:00:57.596
discussion of what

01:00:57.635 --> 01:00:58.576
cryptocurrencies are but

01:00:58.596 --> 01:00:59.715
they sure aren't money so

01:00:59.755 --> 01:01:01.976
that's another thing but

01:01:02.317 --> 01:01:05.677
that's it their adjacency

01:01:05.717 --> 01:01:06.777
to money is very strongly

01:01:06.838 --> 01:01:08.157
related to the economic

01:01:08.197 --> 01:01:08.898
stability of the

01:01:08.918 --> 01:01:10.139
jurisdiction in in which

01:01:10.179 --> 01:01:11.199
you're in I suppose which

01:01:11.259 --> 01:01:12.559
is the I think the point

01:01:12.958 --> 01:01:13.719
the point there for the

01:01:13.739 --> 01:01:16.679
emerging market question I suppose um

01:01:18.153 --> 01:01:19.695
But yeah,

01:01:19.795 --> 01:01:23.378
I guess like the argument with

01:01:23.418 --> 01:01:25.101
the emerging market question becomes like,

01:01:25.161 --> 01:01:25.641
well, okay,

01:01:25.661 --> 01:01:26.603
are you better off just

01:01:26.623 --> 01:01:30.746
supplying them with a low

01:01:30.786 --> 01:01:31.728
trust infrastructure for

01:01:31.768 --> 01:01:34.271
buying US dollars or euros or whatever,

01:01:34.331 --> 01:01:35.811
something that central banks,

01:01:36.373 --> 01:01:37.153
but with a similar

01:01:37.213 --> 01:01:38.275
infrastructure that is...

01:01:41.135 --> 01:01:42.755
doesn't need centralized

01:01:42.815 --> 01:01:45.536
trust in their country's economic policy.

01:01:46.396 --> 01:01:47.956
And you can actually

01:01:47.976 --> 01:01:48.737
obviously engineer that

01:01:48.777 --> 01:01:49.516
system with the same

01:01:49.637 --> 01:01:51.197
principles as a cryptocurrency,

01:01:51.777 --> 01:01:52.777
whereby you would have

01:01:52.836 --> 01:01:53.717
individual validators

01:01:53.757 --> 01:01:55.697
taking some portion of the fees,

01:01:55.797 --> 01:01:56.117
whatever.

01:01:56.657 --> 01:02:00.059
If something has inherent value,

01:02:00.139 --> 01:02:01.059
or not inherent value,

01:02:01.099 --> 01:02:02.179
but consistent value,

01:02:02.438 --> 01:02:04.539
you can build a business case around it.

01:02:04.780 --> 01:02:06.639
And given what

01:02:07.744 --> 01:02:08.925
Yeah, you're saying Swift fees.

01:02:09.365 --> 01:02:10.626
It doesn't take much to

01:02:10.686 --> 01:02:11.846
undercut Swift and still

01:02:11.885 --> 01:02:14.867
make a sizable profit or 400.

01:02:14.867 --> 01:02:15.807
Let's be honest, right?

01:02:17.748 --> 01:02:19.208
I mean, hey,

01:02:19.469 --> 01:02:21.670
if it wasn't so insanely regulated,

01:02:21.750 --> 01:02:23.050
this is one of those markets.

01:02:23.110 --> 01:02:23.610
No, you said,

01:02:23.630 --> 01:02:24.630
but we should put our heads

01:02:24.670 --> 01:02:25.331
together and just knock

01:02:25.351 --> 01:02:27.532
this one on the head.

01:02:27.572 --> 01:02:28.711
We should just solve Forex

01:02:28.751 --> 01:02:32.592
at some point and make a few quid.

01:02:32.713 --> 01:02:34.114
We can make a few quid on that, I reckon.

01:02:34.134 --> 01:02:35.293
What do you guys reckon?

01:02:35.673 --> 01:02:35.954
You in?

01:02:36.054 --> 01:02:37.215
We've got three nodes right here.

01:02:39.369 --> 01:02:42.271
Well, I mean, like, you know, I just know.

01:02:42.291 --> 01:02:48.313
I was talking to an Aussie

01:02:48.333 --> 01:02:49.355
bloke the other day who was

01:02:49.375 --> 01:02:51.795
telling me about how on it

01:02:51.996 --> 01:02:54.777
you all are about, you know,

01:02:54.898 --> 01:02:56.639
central bank crypto and stuff.

01:02:57.380 --> 01:02:59.521
And you've been talking about it for ages.

01:02:59.641 --> 01:03:00.661
And they were like, yeah,

01:03:01.021 --> 01:03:02.583
we're pretty good at Australia.

01:03:02.603 --> 01:03:04.623
And I was like,

01:03:04.664 --> 01:03:06.025
I have an Australian colleague who...

01:03:08.163 --> 01:03:09.364
Absolutely loves his

01:03:09.403 --> 01:03:11.786
government's tax position

01:03:11.887 --> 01:03:13.047
on how crypto works and

01:03:13.068 --> 01:03:13.909
would really love them to

01:03:13.949 --> 01:03:15.090
introduce a central bank

01:03:15.130 --> 01:03:16.291
digital currency that

01:03:16.811 --> 01:03:18.072
ideally makes him lots of money.

01:03:19.414 --> 01:03:20.275
Please tell me more.

01:03:20.775 --> 01:03:21.755
I don't think there's a

01:03:21.815 --> 01:03:23.637
scenario in which the

01:03:23.697 --> 01:03:24.818
central bank's digital

01:03:24.858 --> 01:03:26.460
currency could ever make me money,

01:03:27.161 --> 01:03:28.902
but it will certainly make

01:03:28.963 --> 01:03:29.744
it a lot easier for the

01:03:29.784 --> 01:03:31.704
country to control the money supply.

01:03:33.867 --> 01:03:35.409
But in terms of like,

01:03:35.509 --> 01:03:36.389
are we onto it or not?

01:03:37.050 --> 01:03:38.911
So I know that ANZ has like

01:03:39.012 --> 01:03:40.153
people dedicated to

01:03:40.253 --> 01:03:43.637
researching this and they

01:03:43.916 --> 01:03:46.880
are definitely talking

01:03:46.960 --> 01:03:50.141
about centralized digital

01:03:50.202 --> 01:03:51.503
currencies for the banks.

01:03:52.023 --> 01:03:53.885
I don't know if the

01:03:53.925 --> 01:03:55.166
government is on board with that.

01:03:56.791 --> 01:03:57.391
I heard that there's

01:03:57.813 --> 01:03:59.574
something around wholesale.

01:03:59.733 --> 01:04:01.635
I think that must be what

01:04:01.655 --> 01:04:02.534
you're describing, right?

01:04:02.695 --> 01:04:03.916
Where it's between the banks

01:04:03.936 --> 01:04:05.056
for clearing and stuff

01:04:05.077 --> 01:04:07.077
because they have a huge

01:04:07.117 --> 01:04:07.858
amount of fees and

01:04:07.898 --> 01:04:08.998
infrastructure for just

01:04:09.018 --> 01:04:10.079
their intrabank clearing.

01:04:11.860 --> 01:04:14.041
So a little while,

01:04:14.862 --> 01:04:17.103
maybe five to ten years ago,

01:04:18.945 --> 01:04:20.025
the big banks here in Australia,

01:04:20.045 --> 01:04:20.925
there's only four of them.

01:04:20.965 --> 01:04:24.027
There's ANZ, Commonwealth, NAB,

01:04:24.188 --> 01:04:26.068
and another one.

01:04:26.829 --> 01:04:27.030
Um,

01:04:27.811 --> 01:04:29.195
they're like what they call the big

01:04:29.255 --> 01:04:29.635
four here.

01:04:29.655 --> 01:04:30.056
I can't remember.

01:04:30.097 --> 01:04:31.500
What is the other one?

01:04:31.681 --> 01:04:32.302
Oh, Westpac.

01:04:33.023 --> 01:04:37.793
So they all sort of got together.

01:04:38.695 --> 01:04:40.416
know a decade ago and they

01:04:40.596 --> 01:04:43.315
they built a new um faster

01:04:43.335 --> 01:04:45.056
settlement back end for our

01:04:45.097 --> 01:04:47.137
banks so it's called osco

01:04:47.938 --> 01:04:49.237
and it's available to all

01:04:49.277 --> 01:04:51.239
the banks um so far as I

01:04:51.278 --> 01:04:53.699
know and you know we can

01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:55.159
settle a transaction here

01:04:55.300 --> 01:04:57.181
in like seconds so if I

01:04:57.221 --> 01:05:00.061
send my mum uh 20 bucks

01:05:00.262 --> 01:05:00.922
while she's at the

01:05:00.961 --> 01:05:02.382
supermarket to pick me up a

01:05:02.402 --> 01:05:05.103
bottle of milk um you know

01:05:05.123 --> 01:05:06.202
I can get on my little app

01:05:06.222 --> 01:05:07.563
but I can send that and it's there

01:05:09.021 --> 01:05:11.143
Whether it's $20 or $2 million,

01:05:11.702 --> 01:05:12.322
as long as you've got the

01:05:12.362 --> 01:05:13.742
clearance to send that through your bank,

01:05:13.963 --> 01:05:14.362
it's there.

01:05:14.623 --> 01:05:16.583
And then it's cleared, it's finalized,

01:05:16.784 --> 01:05:17.483
you can do what you want.

01:05:19.664 --> 01:05:20.545
So they developed that and

01:05:20.585 --> 01:05:21.605
implemented that in the background.

01:05:21.985 --> 01:05:23.726
And I think I was reading

01:05:23.786 --> 01:05:24.545
something the other day,

01:05:24.626 --> 01:05:26.027
and this could be total bullshit,

01:05:26.226 --> 01:05:28.427
but I'm sure I was reading

01:05:28.467 --> 01:05:33.108
something where those guys

01:05:33.208 --> 01:05:33.909
over at bloody...

01:05:35.335 --> 01:05:37.237
Who's got that shit coin

01:05:37.277 --> 01:05:38.398
that keeps going to court?

01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:40.159
And they got their

01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:41.380
cross-border settlement stuff.

01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:42.581
Who are those guys?

01:05:43.681 --> 01:05:43.961
Ripple?

01:05:44.181 --> 01:05:45.101
I think Ripple have

01:05:45.141 --> 01:05:45.862
something to do with the

01:05:45.902 --> 01:05:46.583
back end of that.

01:05:48.103 --> 01:05:50.445
Yeah, well, XRP is like, you know,

01:05:50.956 --> 01:05:52.137
different to Ripple the company,

01:05:52.177 --> 01:05:53.197
but Ripple the company have

01:05:53.217 --> 01:05:54.878
some other settlement

01:05:54.918 --> 01:05:55.597
products that they've been

01:05:55.617 --> 01:05:57.539
working on for a fair while now.

01:05:58.018 --> 01:05:59.780
And I think they may have

01:05:59.820 --> 01:06:00.559
something to do with that

01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:02.360
back-end process.

01:06:03.782 --> 01:06:05.362
But I'm not sure if there's

01:06:05.402 --> 01:06:08.003
actually any cryptography

01:06:08.063 --> 01:06:08.923
that backs it or if it's

01:06:08.963 --> 01:06:10.204
just a general ledger that

01:06:10.244 --> 01:06:12.326
everyone writes to with a

01:06:12.365 --> 01:06:13.425
permissioned ledger or something.

01:06:14.106 --> 01:06:15.186
They sponsor a lot of

01:06:15.586 --> 01:06:17.068
academic conferences that

01:06:17.108 --> 01:06:17.987
are in Switzerland.

01:06:18.027 --> 01:06:19.148
That's all I really know about

01:06:20.782 --> 01:06:22.481
the uh ripple behind the

01:06:22.521 --> 01:06:23.643
scenes they obviously have

01:06:23.762 --> 01:06:26.182
they have a particular

01:06:26.222 --> 01:06:26.983
market they're going for

01:06:28.403 --> 01:06:30.284
fun fact brad garlinghouse

01:06:30.385 --> 01:06:31.425
was the richest man in the

01:06:31.465 --> 01:06:33.786
world at one point um when

01:06:34.045 --> 01:06:36.666
there was a pump on xrp in

01:06:38.286 --> 01:06:39.146
like 2017 or 18 or

01:06:39.626 --> 01:06:42.487
something like that the the last

01:06:44.065 --> 01:06:45.565
you know, maybe 2020, 2021.

01:06:46.005 --> 01:06:50.168
The last pump when I think

01:06:50.188 --> 01:06:50.789
XRP was like... The last

01:06:50.809 --> 01:06:51.789
pump was so long ago.

01:06:51.809 --> 01:06:52.769
I don't even remember.

01:06:53.170 --> 01:06:54.510
I was a young man then.

01:06:54.530 --> 01:06:57.311
So I think XRP was like

01:06:57.311 --> 01:07:00.733
$3.50 or $4 or something Australian.

01:07:01.034 --> 01:07:02.775
I don't know what it was, US.

01:07:02.916 --> 01:07:05.516
But Ripple, the company at the time,

01:07:05.597 --> 01:07:07.057
owned like 60 billion of them,

01:07:07.797 --> 01:07:08.079
which was...

01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:10.679
60 of the supply because I

01:07:10.699 --> 01:07:13.221
think there's 40 uh there's

01:07:13.221 --> 01:07:14.161
100 billion or something of

01:07:14.202 --> 01:07:17.143
that supply and you know

01:07:17.184 --> 01:07:20.887
various uh creators uh

01:07:21.746 --> 01:07:22.987
owned some the ripple

01:07:23.047 --> 01:07:26.190
company owned 60 billion um

01:07:26.431 --> 01:07:28.132
and obviously the ceo brad

01:07:28.152 --> 01:07:29.172
gallinghouse owns a lot of

01:07:29.213 --> 01:07:32.195
that company and then so by

01:07:32.215 --> 01:07:34.036
proxy ended up being for a

01:07:34.097 --> 01:07:35.498
couple of days the richest

01:07:36.038 --> 01:07:36.938
dude in the world

01:07:38.663 --> 01:07:39.023
Fun fact.

01:07:39.782 --> 01:07:40.264
Didn't know that.

01:07:41.083 --> 01:07:41.523
Fair enough.

01:07:42.543 --> 01:07:43.085
Yeah,

01:07:43.144 --> 01:07:44.425
it was definitely only a couple of days.

01:07:44.485 --> 01:07:45.746
I think like, you know,

01:07:45.786 --> 01:07:46.746
maybe I was the richest guy

01:07:46.766 --> 01:07:47.686
in the world at one point

01:07:48.646 --> 01:07:50.628
with some shit coin for 30 seconds.

01:07:51.168 --> 01:07:53.027
Yeah, I mean, who knows?

01:07:53.148 --> 01:07:54.309
Wasn't there a, I mean,

01:07:55.429 --> 01:07:57.730
what was it Juno peaked at

01:07:57.889 --> 01:07:59.411
when that guy accidentally

01:07:59.570 --> 01:08:01.032
shorted it and they fucked

01:08:01.072 --> 01:08:02.112
up a liquidity pool,

01:08:02.192 --> 01:08:03.492
tried to front run a liquidity pool?

01:08:03.512 --> 01:08:03.672
Was it $3,000?

01:08:03.733 --> 01:08:03.992
Oh, god damn.

01:08:08.905 --> 01:08:09.925
Yeah, do you remember, like,

01:08:10.284 --> 01:08:12.005
right at the start of Juno,

01:08:12.085 --> 01:08:14.585
somebody tried to exchange, like,

01:08:14.626 --> 01:08:15.867
thousands and thousands of dollars,

01:08:15.887 --> 01:08:16.926
like 9,000 euros or

01:08:17.046 --> 01:08:20.347
something worth of atom for Juno and got,

01:08:20.387 --> 01:08:21.247
like, one.

01:08:21.347 --> 01:08:22.587
I think I do remember that.

01:08:22.908 --> 01:08:23.288
Yeah,

01:08:24.788 --> 01:08:28.130
if you could trade one Juno for 9,000

01:08:28.130 --> 01:08:29.170
euros,

01:08:30.069 --> 01:08:31.110
we'd have all been the richest

01:08:31.131 --> 01:08:32.551
people on the planet, but.

01:08:34.686 --> 01:08:35.046
Hey.

01:08:35.787 --> 01:08:37.309
I've been rich in many shit coins.

01:08:37.628 --> 01:08:39.149
Remember Netta?

01:08:39.569 --> 01:08:41.692
I was rich in Netta for 30 seconds too.

01:08:42.471 --> 01:08:43.372
That was all right.

01:08:44.054 --> 01:08:45.715
I was rich in Raw for 30 seconds.

01:08:45.895 --> 01:08:46.815
I was rich in that other

01:08:46.855 --> 01:08:49.296
shit coin for 30 seconds on Juno.

01:08:49.457 --> 01:08:51.378
I was rich a couple of times on Juno,

01:08:51.519 --> 01:08:52.779
but unfortunately,

01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:54.881
the dumb side of my brain

01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:55.721
said keep it all.

01:08:57.722 --> 01:08:58.844
What's the most amount of

01:08:58.884 --> 01:08:59.944
money that any of you guys

01:08:59.965 --> 01:09:01.586
have lost out of curiosity?

01:09:03.345 --> 01:09:07.667
I think the last shitcoin pump in 2020,

01:09:07.667 --> 01:09:09.609
when it all fell apart,

01:09:10.529 --> 01:09:14.230
we had a significant amount of shitcoin,

01:09:14.270 --> 01:09:16.072
like over a million dollars

01:09:16.773 --> 01:09:17.813
that was locked up in

01:09:17.854 --> 01:09:20.135
various ways that we lost most of.

01:09:21.395 --> 01:09:22.496
I'd say basically all of

01:09:23.556 --> 01:09:25.238
when that market came crashing down.

01:09:25.278 --> 01:09:25.457
Yeah.

01:09:27.259 --> 01:09:28.220
Yeah,

01:09:28.381 --> 01:09:30.324
if you add all of the stuff that

01:09:30.385 --> 01:09:31.606
was... So there was this

01:09:31.627 --> 01:09:32.609
big period of time where

01:09:32.628 --> 01:09:34.672
validators got incentives

01:09:34.773 --> 01:09:36.376
early in networks from

01:09:36.456 --> 01:09:37.578
locked tokens that didn't

01:09:37.618 --> 01:09:38.219
unlock for like...

01:09:38.972 --> 01:09:39.132
You know,

01:09:39.153 --> 01:09:40.592
sometimes some case like six

01:09:40.632 --> 01:09:41.393
years or whatever,

01:09:41.613 --> 01:09:42.533
or whatever it might be.

01:09:43.293 --> 01:09:44.673
So it wasn't like you really,

01:09:45.213 --> 01:09:46.493
you legally didn't even

01:09:46.533 --> 01:09:47.454
have access to them.

01:09:47.795 --> 01:09:50.015
I should really strongly

01:09:50.055 --> 01:09:51.694
specify for tax and legal

01:09:51.734 --> 01:09:54.895
reasons that we really have no access, um,

01:09:55.275 --> 01:09:57.956
to, to, you know?

01:09:58.136 --> 01:09:58.577
Yeah.

01:09:58.796 --> 01:10:00.356
Um, but you know, it's like, it's,

01:10:00.457 --> 01:10:01.537
it's one thing to be like a

01:10:01.577 --> 01:10:02.936
hypothetically in six years,

01:10:02.997 --> 01:10:04.438
if we had access to these,

01:10:04.518 --> 01:10:06.137
this would be worth a million dollars.

01:10:06.297 --> 01:10:06.478
Right.

01:10:07.139 --> 01:10:08.880
And then like now that's

01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:10.740
like worth like $2,000 or something.

01:10:10.881 --> 01:10:11.400
And you're like,

01:10:12.862 --> 01:10:14.243
but of course what happens

01:10:14.323 --> 01:10:15.262
is like at the point where

01:10:15.302 --> 01:10:16.503
you look at it and you're like, God,

01:10:16.543 --> 01:10:17.585
that's a hypothetical

01:10:17.625 --> 01:10:19.045
amount of money in like six

01:10:19.085 --> 01:10:21.046
years time where that's

01:10:21.145 --> 01:10:21.806
like $200,000 or something.

01:10:22.787 --> 01:10:23.728
What's actually happening is

01:10:23.747 --> 01:10:24.467
the founders of that

01:10:24.507 --> 01:10:25.849
project are at that very

01:10:25.929 --> 01:10:27.569
moment selling everything.

01:10:29.277 --> 01:10:30.537
And that is exactly why you

01:10:30.557 --> 01:10:32.800
would never recoup in six years time.

01:10:34.461 --> 01:10:35.362
And, you know,

01:10:35.561 --> 01:10:36.341
sooner or later you have

01:10:36.381 --> 01:10:37.422
that conversation with your

01:10:37.462 --> 01:10:38.724
lovely accountants where you say,

01:10:38.743 --> 01:10:40.546
I think it's time for us to

01:10:40.626 --> 01:10:42.027
write this down.

01:10:43.347 --> 01:10:46.871
Let's put that in as

01:10:47.171 --> 01:10:48.492
functionally illiquid.

01:10:49.813 --> 01:10:51.475
But that's more like lost opportunity,

01:10:51.555 --> 01:10:51.734
right?

01:10:51.755 --> 01:10:53.015
Like as opposed to like you

01:10:53.055 --> 01:10:54.237
putting capital in, right?

01:10:54.877 --> 01:10:56.240
like what would be like the,

01:10:56.822 --> 01:10:57.783
the most amount of money

01:10:57.804 --> 01:10:58.985
that you've lost by putting

01:10:59.287 --> 01:11:00.609
in capital out of curiosity?

01:11:00.630 --> 01:11:04.557
Probably in the,

01:11:06.164 --> 01:11:07.204
everybody's like over I

01:11:07.225 --> 01:11:08.386
don't put money into this

01:11:09.707 --> 01:11:11.268
well that that's not that's

01:11:11.307 --> 01:11:13.448
not true because if you say

01:11:13.628 --> 01:11:15.570
say you pull you um you

01:11:15.591 --> 01:11:17.152
know we keep profits in

01:11:17.231 --> 01:11:19.932
usdc right so that's I

01:11:19.972 --> 01:11:21.154
would say that's 10 hours

01:11:21.373 --> 01:11:23.395
right that's money that we

01:11:23.435 --> 01:11:25.476
can then put back in and we've bought

01:11:26.792 --> 01:11:29.475
coins for various reasons.

01:11:29.574 --> 01:11:32.417
It might be just to buy a

01:11:32.478 --> 01:11:34.199
stake to stay in a chain in

01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:35.240
the early days or something

01:11:35.261 --> 01:11:36.542
just to keep in there or

01:11:36.561 --> 01:11:37.103
something like that.

01:11:37.502 --> 01:11:40.586
We've definitely lost six

01:11:40.626 --> 01:11:41.327
figures doing that.

01:11:43.859 --> 01:11:45.541
but but maybe tara right

01:11:45.581 --> 01:11:46.720
tara would be the I mean

01:11:46.740 --> 01:11:48.242
that was an event that you

01:11:48.261 --> 01:11:49.302
know people had stables and

01:11:49.703 --> 01:11:50.863
that was I think that's a

01:11:50.882 --> 01:11:51.944
lot of power that's not an

01:11:51.984 --> 01:11:52.984
investment loss but that

01:11:53.085 --> 01:11:54.145
that's a true loss that's

01:11:54.185 --> 01:11:55.305
not like that was over the

01:11:55.326 --> 01:11:56.945
course of 30 minutes not

01:11:57.006 --> 01:11:58.367
watching juno drop over the

01:11:58.407 --> 01:12:00.007
course of four four months

01:12:00.068 --> 01:12:00.908
or whatever it was right

01:12:01.828 --> 01:12:04.569
yeah two years two years

01:12:05.010 --> 01:12:06.150
still going it's still going

01:12:07.310 --> 01:12:07.470
Yeah,

01:12:07.569 --> 01:12:09.971
unrealized gains is difficult to be

01:12:09.992 --> 01:12:11.452
able to quantify, but stuff like that,

01:12:11.492 --> 01:12:13.734
like losing tokens in Terra or USDT.

01:12:13.833 --> 01:12:14.274
Well, I mean,

01:12:14.793 --> 01:12:17.695
I can say we pay tax on

01:12:17.775 --> 01:12:21.557
like... We pay tax.

01:12:21.917 --> 01:12:23.738
Every comment is like, we pay taxes.

01:12:23.939 --> 01:12:25.199
Everything is kosher here.

01:12:25.220 --> 01:12:27.001
No, no.

01:12:27.461 --> 01:12:29.381
We're not a bank, but we do pay taxes.

01:12:29.782 --> 01:12:32.604
Well, because of the way taxes work,

01:12:32.644 --> 01:12:34.585
you pay it on the unrealized

01:12:35.746 --> 01:12:39.069
If you stake, that's a taxable event,

01:12:39.109 --> 01:12:39.349
right?

01:12:39.448 --> 01:12:41.430
So if you make money off a protocol,

01:12:41.451 --> 01:12:42.752
you make money from rewards

01:12:43.131 --> 01:12:43.972
and you withdraw those,

01:12:44.073 --> 01:12:45.154
you claim those rewards and

01:12:45.194 --> 01:12:45.994
then restake them.

01:12:46.034 --> 01:12:47.055
You create a taxable event

01:12:47.095 --> 01:12:48.417
and you immediately pay tax

01:12:48.636 --> 01:12:49.917
at the market value on that

01:12:49.957 --> 01:12:51.519
day of the token.

01:12:51.618 --> 01:12:54.921
So we, on various Cosmos chains,

01:12:55.002 --> 01:12:56.682
restaked pretty heavily in

01:12:56.703 --> 01:12:57.644
the last bull run.

01:12:58.225 --> 01:12:59.225
And we had to pay...

01:13:00.837 --> 01:13:02.519
I think we had to pay tax on

01:13:02.559 --> 01:13:04.801
something like 200,000 pounds, I think,

01:13:04.881 --> 01:13:06.904
worth of hypothetical gains

01:13:07.163 --> 01:13:08.305
for tokens that are now

01:13:08.425 --> 01:13:09.747
probably cumulatively worth

01:13:09.787 --> 01:13:11.429
about 10 grand or something.

01:13:12.029 --> 01:13:12.710
That's weird.

01:13:13.070 --> 01:13:14.671
It works like that in Canada too.

01:13:15.052 --> 01:13:16.413
It's weird.

01:13:16.914 --> 01:13:18.095
So for you,

01:13:18.155 --> 01:13:19.818
do you end up just writing that off?

01:13:19.837 --> 01:13:20.158
Yeah.

01:13:21.340 --> 01:13:22.560
yeah you eventually

01:13:22.581 --> 01:13:23.400
eventually gonna have to

01:13:23.501 --> 01:13:24.942
unstake it and just sell it

01:13:25.002 --> 01:13:26.722
at market realize the loss

01:13:27.162 --> 01:13:28.663
and then it means if you're

01:13:29.264 --> 01:13:30.244
validating a chain in

01:13:30.305 --> 01:13:32.025
future and the token price

01:13:32.065 --> 01:13:33.025
radically inflates you

01:13:33.065 --> 01:13:34.167
won't pay any capital gains

01:13:34.226 --> 01:13:35.307
tax on it as a business

01:13:35.467 --> 01:13:37.068
because as a business you

01:13:37.087 --> 01:13:38.269
say look well we're already

01:13:38.309 --> 01:13:39.930
running a net loss of like

01:13:40.430 --> 01:13:41.770
100k or whatever it is on

01:13:41.791 --> 01:13:43.072
the balance sheet I mean

01:13:43.252 --> 01:13:44.372
it's it's a lot less than

01:13:44.412 --> 01:13:45.332
that because it will be

01:13:45.353 --> 01:13:46.854
whatever 13 of of whatever so

01:13:50.402 --> 01:13:52.063
Um, but it, but it gives you,

01:13:52.163 --> 01:13:53.645
it means you can like, not,

01:13:53.704 --> 01:13:54.945
you can pay a bit less tax,

01:13:54.985 --> 01:13:55.987
but obviously like you'd

01:13:56.027 --> 01:13:57.186
rather make the money and

01:13:57.226 --> 01:13:58.167
then pay the tax on the

01:13:58.368 --> 01:14:00.470
money you just made rather

01:14:00.489 --> 01:14:01.511
than lose money and then

01:14:01.551 --> 01:14:03.072
get a tax rebate later on

01:14:03.471 --> 01:14:04.193
money that you still have

01:14:04.233 --> 01:14:05.154
to make a second time.

01:14:06.140 --> 01:14:07.001
because now you've just had

01:14:07.021 --> 01:14:08.421
to make money twice to

01:14:08.481 --> 01:14:09.162
cover the fact that you

01:14:09.182 --> 01:14:10.222
lost it the first time.

01:14:12.283 --> 01:14:13.104
Casinos.

01:14:14.024 --> 01:14:14.244
Yeah.

01:14:14.324 --> 01:14:15.445
I mean, but that's the industry.

01:14:15.525 --> 01:14:16.145
That's the industry.

01:14:16.166 --> 01:14:16.806
Like it's crypto.

01:14:16.867 --> 01:14:17.867
Like everybody has,

01:14:18.108 --> 01:14:19.028
everybody has flubbed their

01:14:19.068 --> 01:14:20.408
taxes or done something

01:14:20.429 --> 01:14:23.329
inefficient or like for a personal basis.

01:14:23.390 --> 01:14:25.011
Like I got paid for some

01:14:25.070 --> 01:14:26.332
work to me personally,

01:14:26.372 --> 01:14:27.412
not to the company because

01:14:28.012 --> 01:14:29.554
it just got sent straight to my wallet,

01:14:29.613 --> 01:14:29.753
which,

01:14:31.002 --> 01:14:32.842
very not ideal and you don't

01:14:32.882 --> 01:14:33.922
want to ever do that if you

01:14:33.983 --> 01:14:35.122
work in the crypto space

01:14:35.283 --> 01:14:35.944
always work through a

01:14:35.984 --> 01:14:37.243
company always have stuff

01:14:37.264 --> 01:14:38.364
paid into company wallets

01:14:38.465 --> 01:14:39.385
blah blah blah but it was

01:14:39.604 --> 01:14:42.605
you know whatever and um I

01:14:42.626 --> 01:14:44.287
was like oh this uh this

01:14:44.367 --> 01:14:46.106
coin's a bit risky so

01:14:46.146 --> 01:14:47.408
converted it to another one

01:14:47.707 --> 01:14:49.708
which was much more easy

01:14:49.788 --> 01:14:51.189
like name recognition I was

01:14:51.208 --> 01:14:52.529
just like let's leave it

01:14:52.550 --> 01:14:53.329
there to the end of the tax

01:14:53.369 --> 01:14:54.170
year and figure out what to

01:14:54.189 --> 01:14:56.890
do with it and then the

01:14:56.911 --> 01:14:57.850
place I put it tanked

01:14:59.713 --> 01:15:02.996
And so I had to pay, I had to pay the tax,

01:15:03.355 --> 01:15:04.237
like as an individual,

01:15:04.277 --> 01:15:07.118
so not even me as the company that, that,

01:15:07.137 --> 01:15:09.038
that I run as me as an individual,

01:15:09.059 --> 01:15:10.319
I had to pay a tax bill on

01:15:10.899 --> 01:15:11.980
the value of the token at

01:15:12.020 --> 01:15:13.181
the point where I was given it.

01:15:13.721 --> 01:15:16.684
And then by the time I, I sold it off,

01:15:16.743 --> 01:15:18.284
it was worth like, you know, a fraction.

01:15:19.005 --> 01:15:21.105
So like the tax bill I had,

01:15:21.305 --> 01:15:22.846
like by selling absolutely everything,

01:15:23.327 --> 01:15:24.167
I just about covered the

01:15:24.188 --> 01:15:24.988
tax bill that I had.

01:15:25.467 --> 01:15:25.887
And I was like,

01:15:26.028 --> 01:15:26.649
this is why I shouldn't

01:15:26.689 --> 01:15:28.989
trade anything or have gut

01:15:29.029 --> 01:15:29.930
feelings about anything.

01:15:29.970 --> 01:15:31.091
Cause I'm just gonna be wrong.

01:15:31.331 --> 01:15:32.051
And after that,

01:15:33.152 --> 01:15:34.032
on the couple of occasions

01:15:34.051 --> 01:15:34.832
where people have paid me

01:15:34.872 --> 01:15:37.333
directly for advice, help,

01:15:37.394 --> 01:15:38.475
or just a thank you or whatever,

01:15:38.494 --> 01:15:40.354
I've just sold it immediately.

01:15:40.375 --> 01:15:41.876
Just never look back.

01:15:41.916 --> 01:15:42.617
You just go boom.

01:15:43.237 --> 01:15:44.497
As a company, we do different things,

01:15:44.597 --> 01:15:45.377
but as an individual,

01:15:48.487 --> 01:15:48.787
No way.

01:15:50.608 --> 01:15:51.728
So anyway, you can be sure, right?

01:15:53.109 --> 01:15:54.590
Is that the same in Australia, though?

01:15:54.729 --> 01:15:56.510
I'm just beginning to wonder

01:15:56.550 --> 01:15:57.990
if this is like a monarchy

01:15:58.011 --> 01:15:58.690
thing or whatnot.

01:16:01.372 --> 01:16:03.393
So I didn't catch any of

01:16:03.493 --> 01:16:04.194
what the phrase said

01:16:04.213 --> 01:16:05.594
because I wasn't fucking listening.

01:16:05.774 --> 01:16:08.534
But what happens over here,

01:16:09.855 --> 01:16:11.676
as an individual, if you...

01:16:13.037 --> 01:16:16.180
get crypto somehow, then it's income.

01:16:17.560 --> 01:16:19.081
If you get an airdrop, it's income.

01:16:19.140 --> 01:16:21.222
If someone sends it to you, it's income.

01:16:21.842 --> 01:16:23.543
If the source is like not known,

01:16:23.884 --> 01:16:24.384
it's income.

01:16:27.122 --> 01:16:28.222
At the same time,

01:16:29.342 --> 01:16:31.503
if you have to calculate a

01:16:31.543 --> 01:16:32.664
cost base for everything.

01:16:34.225 --> 01:16:39.488
So if, say, if you sent me, I don't know,

01:16:39.488 --> 01:16:42.789
10 bearer and that was worth $100,

01:16:42.789 --> 01:16:45.350
then I have to pay income tax on $100.

01:16:45.350 --> 01:16:46.292
And then I then have an

01:16:46.372 --> 01:16:47.492
asset of $100 of bearer and

01:16:47.532 --> 01:16:48.573
my cost base is $100 for that 10 bearer,

01:16:48.573 --> 01:16:48.893
$10 a bearer.

01:16:53.246 --> 01:16:55.507
And then if it becomes worth more,

01:16:55.768 --> 01:16:57.349
I'm liable for capital gains tax.

01:16:57.389 --> 01:16:59.730
If it becomes less, I'm liable for,

01:16:59.751 --> 01:17:03.413
I get a capital loss,

01:17:03.675 --> 01:17:04.454
which I can put against

01:17:04.515 --> 01:17:05.395
other capital gains.

01:17:07.197 --> 01:17:08.158
And that's about how it works.

01:17:08.198 --> 01:17:09.458
So everything you buy and sell,

01:17:09.479 --> 01:17:10.220
you have to have a cost

01:17:10.300 --> 01:17:11.280
base and a sell price.

01:17:11.320 --> 01:17:12.341
And then the difference is

01:17:12.402 --> 01:17:13.442
capital gains or losses.

01:17:13.983 --> 01:17:15.203
And it's a total fucking

01:17:15.323 --> 01:17:16.545
administration nightmare.

01:17:19.747 --> 01:17:20.408
As an individual.

01:17:20.828 --> 01:17:22.449
That's why you pay for bookkeeping though,

01:17:22.470 --> 01:17:22.750
isn't it?

01:17:24.282 --> 01:17:25.863
That's why you moved to Turkey.

01:17:27.345 --> 01:17:28.005
Yeah, exactly.

01:17:29.886 --> 01:17:31.528
But you can do other things as a business.

01:17:32.469 --> 01:17:33.630
As an individual, as a business,

01:17:33.670 --> 01:17:34.890
there's other options.

01:17:36.872 --> 01:17:38.033
Like just firing every

01:17:38.073 --> 01:17:39.293
accountant who disagrees

01:17:39.314 --> 01:17:40.395
with you until you

01:17:40.435 --> 01:17:41.555
eventually roll the dice

01:17:41.615 --> 01:17:42.617
and the accountant is like,

01:17:43.658 --> 01:17:45.059
I like the cut of your jib.

01:17:45.118 --> 01:17:47.020
Let's go with your strategy.

01:17:47.180 --> 01:17:49.722
And you're like, excellent.

01:17:50.887 --> 01:17:52.188
My strategy is now canon.

01:17:52.408 --> 01:17:55.149
It's in the fucking website, ATO website.

01:17:55.189 --> 01:17:56.869
So my assumptions were correct.

01:17:58.150 --> 01:18:01.992
So I'm well within the

01:18:02.212 --> 01:18:04.172
bounds of what's acceptable.

01:18:07.554 --> 01:18:08.734
Are you paying cap gains on

01:18:08.753 --> 01:18:10.154
just holding it or if you're staking it?

01:18:10.175 --> 01:18:13.235
Are you talking to me?

01:18:14.095 --> 01:18:15.737
Yeah.

01:18:15.796 --> 01:18:17.256
As an individual or a business?

01:18:18.257 --> 01:18:18.957
As an individual.

01:18:20.557 --> 01:18:21.439
As an individual,

01:18:22.538 --> 01:18:24.680
if I take my $100 of shit coin.

01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:25.560
Sitting in your wallet?

01:18:27.222 --> 01:18:27.443
Yeah.

01:18:27.502 --> 01:18:29.283
Yeah, well, it's still, you can stake it.

01:18:29.304 --> 01:18:29.923
It's still yours.

01:18:30.125 --> 01:18:31.546
If you don't realize any of that,

01:18:31.746 --> 01:18:35.127
of the rewards, then it's not income yet.

01:18:35.667 --> 01:18:39.270
So it's only income when you realize it.

01:18:39.291 --> 01:18:41.572
And it's only a taxable

01:18:41.631 --> 01:18:42.693
event when you sell it.

01:18:45.755 --> 01:18:47.777
This is what I would love is if here.

01:18:47.837 --> 01:18:48.636
So while you're holding it,

01:18:48.716 --> 01:18:49.677
it's an investment.

01:18:51.380 --> 01:18:52.220
While you're holding it,

01:18:52.261 --> 01:18:53.462
it's still a capital asset.

01:18:53.801 --> 01:18:55.882
So you don't, whether it's staked or not,

01:18:55.943 --> 01:18:56.863
it's still a capital asset.

01:18:56.904 --> 01:18:58.364
It's a capital asset.

01:18:59.386 --> 01:18:59.645
Yeah.

01:18:59.685 --> 01:18:59.926
So it's,

01:19:00.046 --> 01:19:02.528
it's disposals that trigger a

01:19:02.608 --> 01:19:03.708
capital gains tax event.

01:19:04.729 --> 01:19:05.010
Yeah.

01:19:05.050 --> 01:19:06.610
So the thing here is that they class.

01:19:07.072 --> 01:19:07.971
But just holding it in a

01:19:07.993 --> 01:19:09.514
wallet is considered a. Yeah.

01:19:09.573 --> 01:19:09.814
Yeah.

01:19:12.335 --> 01:19:12.515
Yeah.

01:19:12.715 --> 01:19:14.157
That's the thing that needs redefining,

01:19:14.197 --> 01:19:14.537
I think.

01:19:14.657 --> 01:19:15.818
Because if it wasn't for that,

01:19:15.858 --> 01:19:17.519
you'd just be like, oh, sweet, cool.

01:19:17.679 --> 01:19:18.760
This totally makes sense.

01:19:18.819 --> 01:19:19.541
Everything else about it

01:19:19.761 --> 01:19:20.362
makes sense because it's

01:19:20.402 --> 01:19:21.903
basically what Niles just described.

01:19:22.662 --> 01:19:24.305
But, yeah.

01:19:25.525 --> 01:19:31.250
But, I mean, say if you have, say you have,

01:19:31.470 --> 01:19:33.152
I don't know, some staked Juno, right?

01:19:33.953 --> 01:19:35.113
And you're like, all right,

01:19:35.793 --> 01:19:36.854
I'm going to sell this now.

01:19:37.916 --> 01:19:39.136
And then you unstake it.

01:19:40.682 --> 01:19:41.484
At the same time,

01:19:41.505 --> 01:19:43.970
you trigger an income tax

01:19:44.051 --> 01:19:46.355
event because you...

01:19:50.395 --> 01:19:52.417
you get the pending rewards

01:19:52.978 --> 01:19:53.939
issued to you at the same

01:19:53.979 --> 01:19:55.119
time you unstake it, right?

01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:56.360
So you can't unstake it

01:19:56.381 --> 01:19:58.103
without triggering an income tax event.

01:19:58.863 --> 01:19:59.663
So you get that.

01:20:00.064 --> 01:20:00.484
And then,

01:20:00.604 --> 01:20:02.546
so now you have to calculate the

01:20:02.605 --> 01:20:04.068
cost base for that income,

01:20:04.108 --> 01:20:05.488
which is the same as the income.

01:20:06.168 --> 01:20:07.831
So now you have a capital asset,

01:20:08.331 --> 01:20:10.672
plus you're releasing your other assets,

01:20:10.712 --> 01:20:12.454
which takes, I don't know, 28 days.

01:20:13.255 --> 01:20:14.716
So after 28 days,

01:20:14.777 --> 01:20:15.778
you take everything out of

01:20:15.797 --> 01:20:18.038
your account and then you send it

01:20:19.130 --> 01:20:21.690
to a centralized exchange, for example.

01:20:22.131 --> 01:20:26.752
So then you have a fee that

01:20:26.771 --> 01:20:27.612
you have to record,

01:20:28.631 --> 01:20:29.971
which has a cost base of

01:20:30.051 --> 01:20:31.613
something that you have to calculate,

01:20:31.972 --> 01:20:32.153
right?

01:20:32.193 --> 01:20:33.872
So that fee is a disposal.

01:20:34.774 --> 01:20:35.873
So you have to calculate the

01:20:35.913 --> 01:20:37.333
cost base of that disposal

01:20:37.453 --> 01:20:38.654
and that's how much the fee is.

01:20:39.194 --> 01:20:40.175
And then it lands in your

01:20:40.295 --> 01:20:42.095
account centralized.

01:20:42.135 --> 01:20:43.635
But you're using a centralized exchange,

01:20:43.676 --> 01:20:43.876
right?

01:20:44.115 --> 01:20:45.695
Don't you just have Coinly?

01:20:49.335 --> 01:20:50.555
Yeah, but it still has to.

01:20:51.155 --> 01:20:52.256
Cointly is not very good at

01:20:52.296 --> 01:20:53.817
calculating cost bases of things,

01:20:53.856 --> 01:20:54.237
by the way.

01:20:54.637 --> 01:20:57.139
Well, sure, but it gives you the time,

01:20:57.798 --> 01:20:59.159
the asset.

01:21:01.360 --> 01:21:02.421
It gives you everything you

01:21:02.461 --> 01:21:03.402
need to then hand it over

01:21:03.421 --> 01:21:06.302
to a bookkeeper and go, okay, cool.

01:21:06.703 --> 01:21:08.604
Just go on this magical

01:21:08.644 --> 01:21:09.965
website called CoinGecko

01:21:10.145 --> 01:21:11.565
and find out the historical

01:21:11.586 --> 01:21:12.286
price on the day.

01:21:13.220 --> 01:21:14.962
what I'm getting to is that

01:21:15.243 --> 01:21:17.123
just to do one simple thing,

01:21:17.304 --> 01:21:18.324
unstake and sell,

01:21:18.585 --> 01:21:19.706
you trigger about fucking

01:21:19.746 --> 01:21:21.426
five or six different events, right?

01:21:21.807 --> 01:21:22.608
That are taxable.

01:21:23.229 --> 01:21:24.550
And then you have to track all of that.

01:21:24.689 --> 01:21:26.331
So that's all, that's doing one thing.

01:21:26.350 --> 01:21:28.613
If you're like active in crypto,

01:21:29.193 --> 01:21:30.413
you're triggering hundreds

01:21:30.533 --> 01:21:31.795
a day and you have to,

01:21:32.494 --> 01:21:33.456
you have to track the cost

01:21:33.496 --> 01:21:34.317
base of everything.

01:21:34.396 --> 01:21:35.957
It's an absolute fucking nightmare.

01:21:36.337 --> 01:21:36.557
Right.

01:21:36.578 --> 01:21:37.519
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:21:37.538 --> 01:21:38.180
I mean, you,

01:21:38.859 --> 01:21:40.261
and like I had to write

01:21:40.301 --> 01:21:41.501
custom I remember I had to

01:21:41.541 --> 01:21:42.801
write custom software to do

01:21:42.862 --> 01:21:44.082
this in the early days yeah

01:21:44.181 --> 01:21:45.903
exactly because coinly is

01:21:46.162 --> 01:21:47.243
and then I found that

01:21:47.283 --> 01:21:48.604
there's people who know is

01:21:48.684 --> 01:21:50.965
it no but then it doesn't

01:21:50.984 --> 01:21:52.305
matter because you just

01:21:52.945 --> 01:21:55.886
what this is magical people

01:21:56.006 --> 01:21:58.408
called bookkeepers right

01:21:58.807 --> 01:22:00.529
and what they do is they do

01:22:02.085 --> 01:22:03.426
administrative tasks related

01:22:03.466 --> 01:22:05.046
to accounting if you just

01:22:05.086 --> 01:22:06.726
like give them the couple

01:22:06.747 --> 01:22:07.747
of extra tools that they

01:22:07.787 --> 01:22:09.988
need to do like you know go

01:22:10.028 --> 01:22:11.189
to coin gecko and here's a

01:22:11.229 --> 01:22:13.050
spreadsheet of uh of

01:22:13.109 --> 01:22:14.850
whatever and you have to

01:22:14.890 --> 01:22:16.011
keep the spreadsheet you

01:22:16.030 --> 01:22:17.171
had to write software to

01:22:17.231 --> 01:22:18.332
extract the data like I

01:22:18.351 --> 01:22:20.372
don't need that I don't use

01:22:20.432 --> 01:22:21.212
it I haven't used it in a

01:22:21.252 --> 01:22:22.514
year just pay people to do it now

01:22:24.722 --> 01:22:25.923
Well, in any case,

01:22:26.163 --> 01:22:27.484
you're having to pay someone to do it,

01:22:27.503 --> 01:22:27.684
right?

01:22:27.704 --> 01:22:28.604
So that's more expense.

01:22:29.164 --> 01:22:30.326
You're missing the point.

01:22:30.466 --> 01:22:32.145
It's an administrative nightmare,

01:22:32.186 --> 01:22:33.167
whether you do it or

01:22:33.207 --> 01:22:34.408
fucking pay someone else to do it.

01:22:34.427 --> 01:22:35.448
Yeah, it's an administrative nightmare.

01:22:35.488 --> 01:22:36.268
It's no longer my nightmare,

01:22:36.287 --> 01:22:37.349
which is like the key

01:22:37.469 --> 01:22:38.569
essential point here.

01:22:39.369 --> 01:22:40.369
Like I really try to get

01:22:40.430 --> 01:22:41.850
across the point that like

01:22:42.650 --> 01:22:44.311
my administrative nightmare now,

01:22:44.372 --> 01:22:45.993
that period of my life is over.

01:22:48.293 --> 01:22:49.213
And it's great.

01:22:50.515 --> 01:22:51.414
What I want to understand,

01:22:51.435 --> 01:22:53.235
and maybe we can have many, many,

01:22:54.059 --> 01:22:55.179
many back.

01:22:57.220 --> 01:22:58.319
Maybe we can have many back.

01:22:58.359 --> 01:22:59.779
What I do want to understand is how,

01:22:59.800 --> 01:23:01.180
I do want to understand the

01:23:01.201 --> 01:23:03.180
tax structure for bear

01:23:03.201 --> 01:23:05.622
approval liquidity when my

01:23:05.681 --> 01:23:07.421
validator node is diverting

01:23:07.481 --> 01:23:09.382
BGP back to five or six

01:23:09.462 --> 01:23:12.623
liquidity pools with bribe.

01:23:12.764 --> 01:23:14.264
Like, is there a model for that?

01:23:15.346 --> 01:23:16.849
yes you go straight to jail

01:23:17.029 --> 01:23:18.451
you go straight to jail do

01:23:18.490 --> 01:23:20.094
not pass go actually no you

01:23:20.113 --> 01:23:22.617
have to do is step one move

01:23:22.657 --> 01:23:23.838
to dubai which everybody's

01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:25.902
essentially doing and then

01:23:26.202 --> 01:23:27.323
uh and then you go you

01:23:27.344 --> 01:23:28.164
don't have to deal with any of that

01:23:29.038 --> 01:23:30.319
Right, or go to Turkey.

01:23:30.739 --> 01:23:31.041
Actually,

01:23:31.320 --> 01:23:34.382
I'm kind of curious in relations

01:23:34.422 --> 01:23:36.965
to this or whatnot,

01:23:37.546 --> 01:23:38.666
because taxes have just

01:23:38.707 --> 01:23:39.587
been getting crazier and

01:23:39.606 --> 01:23:40.427
crazier and crazier.

01:23:41.247 --> 01:23:42.349
And I've talked to like a

01:23:42.590 --> 01:23:43.250
number of people that are

01:23:43.489 --> 01:23:44.690
also in crypto in North

01:23:44.730 --> 01:23:45.712
America or some Western

01:23:45.752 --> 01:23:46.412
countries or whatnot.

01:23:47.313 --> 01:23:48.233
I'm I wanted to get your

01:23:48.252 --> 01:23:49.014
guys's impression because

01:23:49.253 --> 01:23:51.413
for me are for you guys are

01:23:51.434 --> 01:23:52.215
you getting the same where

01:23:52.255 --> 01:23:53.295
people are thinking like

01:23:53.335 --> 01:23:54.614
hey I'm screw this I'm

01:23:54.654 --> 01:23:56.256
moving because this is just

01:23:56.515 --> 01:23:57.496
this is way too much or

01:23:57.515 --> 01:23:58.777
whatnot like have you guys

01:23:58.896 --> 01:24:00.317
seen that sentiment as well

01:24:04.179 --> 01:24:05.979
I think paying tax is so

01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:07.579
ingrained in australians

01:24:07.659 --> 01:24:08.520
that they don't care

01:24:09.710 --> 01:24:10.029
Yeah.

01:24:10.229 --> 01:24:11.810
Like you do get your

01:24:11.850 --> 01:24:14.233
hardcore cryptos who are like, man,

01:24:14.252 --> 01:24:14.832
this tax,

01:24:14.853 --> 01:24:16.713
the government's robbing us every day,

01:24:16.734 --> 01:24:18.774
fucking blah, blah, blah.

01:24:19.155 --> 01:24:20.395
I mean, I don't mind paying tax.

01:24:20.836 --> 01:24:21.817
This country would be fucked

01:24:21.837 --> 01:24:22.938
without tax because of all

01:24:22.957 --> 01:24:23.497
the roads and

01:24:23.537 --> 01:24:24.779
infrastructure that needs to be built.

01:24:25.298 --> 01:24:26.260
Like, you know,

01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:27.481
just to go to the next town,

01:24:27.521 --> 01:24:29.203
I'm driving 200 Ks down the road.

01:24:29.484 --> 01:24:30.404
Could you imagine how fucked

01:24:30.444 --> 01:24:32.046
that road would be if there was no tax?

01:24:32.567 --> 01:24:33.868
That's obviously the

01:24:33.908 --> 01:24:35.530
government's spending money.

01:24:36.091 --> 01:24:36.511
We will see.

01:24:36.532 --> 01:24:38.814
They do waste absolute shit loads of it.

01:24:39.215 --> 01:24:42.439
That's Mad Max would be like the, uh,

01:24:42.979 --> 01:24:44.340
That would be the upper

01:24:44.460 --> 01:24:45.900
echelon of roads around

01:24:45.940 --> 01:24:48.242
here if we didn't pay tax.

01:24:48.782 --> 01:24:49.783
Have you seen the fucking

01:24:49.903 --> 01:24:51.203
terrain that's out here?

01:24:51.443 --> 01:24:52.644
They turn that shit into roads.

01:24:52.663 --> 01:24:54.425
They dig it up, lay it out, turn it.

01:24:54.765 --> 01:24:57.086
But, you know, infrastructure, sewer,

01:24:57.345 --> 01:24:57.666
water.

01:24:57.926 --> 01:24:58.846
How the fuck is anyone going

01:24:58.867 --> 01:25:00.167
to get this without paying tax?

01:25:00.387 --> 01:25:02.408
So let's pay your fucking tax, man.

01:25:04.569 --> 01:25:04.770
Yeah.

01:25:04.970 --> 01:25:05.289
I mean,

01:25:05.911 --> 01:25:06.751
the only people I've ever

01:25:06.791 --> 01:25:08.391
encountered in the UK who are very like,

01:25:09.505 --> 01:25:10.345
moved to a new place because

01:25:10.385 --> 01:25:11.125
of tax because they're in

01:25:11.145 --> 01:25:15.167
crypto very very young men

01:25:16.447 --> 01:25:19.707
who have just decided

01:25:19.747 --> 01:25:21.148
that's a thing and at least

01:25:21.228 --> 01:25:22.429
one person I met they were

01:25:22.469 --> 01:25:23.748
like yeah I'm gonna move to

01:25:24.668 --> 01:25:25.989
common where it was and

01:25:26.029 --> 01:25:27.810
then um I think they might

01:25:27.829 --> 01:25:28.829
have got laid off like

01:25:28.869 --> 01:25:30.470
really shortly after that and it was like

01:25:31.778 --> 01:25:33.698
So you just kind of moved

01:25:33.979 --> 01:25:34.920
because of your job,

01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:36.140
but now your job has ended,

01:25:36.161 --> 01:25:37.501
and now you just live in a

01:25:37.521 --> 01:25:38.442
place you don't fucking like,

01:25:38.462 --> 01:25:39.363
and you're probably going

01:25:39.382 --> 01:25:40.103
to have to move back

01:25:40.203 --> 01:25:40.823
because they're not going

01:25:40.844 --> 01:25:41.823
to extend your visa.

01:25:42.524 --> 01:25:43.925
Now you don't have the big

01:25:43.944 --> 01:25:45.065
balls crypto income.

01:25:46.627 --> 01:25:47.847
So what was the fucking point?

01:25:47.868 --> 01:25:48.988
You may as well just have

01:25:49.288 --> 01:25:51.010
stayed in the same place, paid your tax,

01:25:51.069 --> 01:25:52.591
and played five-a-side

01:25:52.631 --> 01:25:53.530
football with your mates at

01:25:53.551 --> 01:25:54.952
the weekend and had a life.

01:25:54.971 --> 01:25:55.391
I don't know.

01:25:58.287 --> 01:25:59.628
It depends what your center

01:25:59.689 --> 01:26:01.289
of gravity as a person is, doesn't it?

01:26:01.369 --> 01:26:04.971
And also, like Noel said, I had a kid.

01:26:06.693 --> 01:26:08.434
We have free healthcare here.

01:26:08.634 --> 01:26:10.375
You go through that process

01:26:10.414 --> 01:26:11.194
and you're just like, yep,

01:26:11.335 --> 01:26:12.435
that's what tax pays for.

01:26:13.015 --> 01:26:15.617
I got no problem with it.

01:26:15.837 --> 01:26:17.257
Also, look at it like this.

01:26:17.377 --> 01:26:19.139
I'm sure Dubai is a really nice place.

01:26:19.179 --> 01:26:19.880
I've never been there.

01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:21.440
But I do know you have to be

01:26:21.501 --> 01:26:22.560
fucking rich to live there

01:26:22.780 --> 01:26:25.103
because a lot of the people

01:26:25.143 --> 01:26:26.203
go there because they're rich.

01:26:26.682 --> 01:26:27.543
And not gay, right?

01:26:30.631 --> 01:26:34.774
Dubai is one of those places.

01:26:35.333 --> 01:26:36.475
I'm pretty sure I'm right about that,

01:26:36.515 --> 01:26:36.715
right?

01:26:37.274 --> 01:26:39.436
I think it's getting, by the day,

01:26:39.617 --> 01:26:41.998
more and more westernized.

01:26:42.259 --> 01:26:42.878
Maybe they don't.

01:26:43.659 --> 01:26:44.180
Maybe they do.

01:26:44.359 --> 01:26:45.280
But in any case,

01:26:46.481 --> 01:26:48.283
it's a very expensive place to live.

01:26:48.563 --> 01:26:49.503
And it's only getting more

01:26:49.543 --> 01:26:50.685
expensive as more and more

01:26:50.725 --> 01:26:51.545
rich people move there.

01:26:51.865 --> 01:26:53.146
So you might be dodging the tax,

01:26:53.226 --> 01:26:54.327
but your cost of living is

01:26:54.346 --> 01:26:55.587
going up astronomically.

01:26:56.088 --> 01:26:57.449
And I can't sustain living

01:26:57.510 --> 01:26:58.649
in fucking Dubai.

01:26:59.070 --> 01:26:59.291
Like,

01:27:00.016 --> 01:27:00.296
You know,

01:27:00.317 --> 01:27:01.997
I'm not driving around in a Lambo.

01:27:02.217 --> 01:27:03.559
I'm not moving there just for tax.

01:27:04.159 --> 01:27:05.560
And Australia is a beautiful

01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:06.161
country to live.

01:27:06.240 --> 01:27:07.061
It's fucking enormous.

01:27:07.082 --> 01:27:08.402
There's hardly anyone that lives here.

01:27:09.023 --> 01:27:10.963
Great roads from all the tax that we pay.

01:27:11.824 --> 01:27:14.926
And, like, free healthcare, good schools,

01:27:16.106 --> 01:27:17.387
fucking beaches.

01:27:17.587 --> 01:27:18.609
Why would you want to go anywhere else?

01:27:19.489 --> 01:27:20.090
Fuck America.

01:27:20.329 --> 01:27:20.890
Freedom's here.

01:27:23.351 --> 01:27:25.573
That is such an Australian reaction to...

01:27:27.069 --> 01:27:29.453
It starts as taxes, ends with,

01:27:29.654 --> 01:27:31.518
and have you fucking seen the beaches?

01:27:34.024 --> 01:27:35.706
like beautiful white sandy

01:27:35.746 --> 01:27:37.266
beaches man you can we're

01:27:37.306 --> 01:27:38.327
fucking surrounded by them

01:27:38.346 --> 01:27:39.207
you can go anywhere and

01:27:39.247 --> 01:27:40.448
just walk into a beach and

01:27:40.467 --> 01:27:42.029
die or surf whichever one

01:27:42.048 --> 01:27:43.729
you want to do well as uh

01:27:43.789 --> 01:27:44.630
you can get eaten by a

01:27:44.649 --> 01:27:46.490
shark or drown or or get on

01:27:46.530 --> 01:27:47.692
a there's fucking jelly

01:27:47.912 --> 01:27:49.592
there's jellyfish up up in

01:27:49.632 --> 01:27:50.292
like the north you're a

01:27:50.332 --> 01:27:51.974
kanji up north yeah you

01:27:52.014 --> 01:27:53.073
can't go in the in the

01:27:53.154 --> 01:27:54.154
ocean up there yeah yeah I

01:27:54.194 --> 01:27:55.234
was like I was like all

01:27:55.274 --> 01:27:56.336
stoked I was like I was

01:27:56.376 --> 01:27:57.355
like so this big old

01:27:57.395 --> 01:27:58.476
fucking beach I was like

01:27:59.246 --> 01:27:59.726
let's go.

01:27:59.747 --> 01:28:01.509
And then like wander towards it.

01:28:01.548 --> 01:28:02.550
And there's all these signs saying,

01:28:02.609 --> 01:28:04.432
if you touch the water, motherfucker,

01:28:04.493 --> 01:28:06.715
if you, if you go near the water,

01:28:06.734 --> 01:28:09.078
a box jellyfish is going to jump out,

01:28:09.498 --> 01:28:10.460
rip your fucking heads,

01:28:10.619 --> 01:28:11.501
clean off your shoulders.

01:28:11.541 --> 01:28:13.543
And you're like, cool.

01:28:13.823 --> 01:28:14.725
Not going in the water.

01:28:16.792 --> 01:28:17.891
Just being Australian

01:28:18.051 --> 01:28:19.132
practically makes you a

01:28:19.193 --> 01:28:20.872
warrior because there is

01:28:21.313 --> 01:28:22.554
everything trying to kill you here,

01:28:22.934 --> 01:28:24.694
whether you're in the water, on the land,

01:28:24.993 --> 01:28:26.114
hiding in your bathtub,

01:28:26.475 --> 01:28:27.175
this stuff at all.

01:28:27.335 --> 01:28:28.354
It's just around the corner.

01:28:28.515 --> 01:28:29.256
Death at every turn.

01:28:33.356 --> 01:28:33.877
Every turn.

01:28:34.877 --> 01:28:36.217
The phrase just started

01:28:36.257 --> 01:28:37.717
laughing uncontrollably.

01:28:39.599 --> 01:28:39.958
But, you know.

01:28:40.966 --> 01:28:42.368
There's also tax helps out

01:28:42.387 --> 01:28:42.948
with that as well.

01:28:42.988 --> 01:28:44.810
They, uh, you know, keep,

01:28:44.930 --> 01:28:45.951
keep some of that crazy

01:28:45.990 --> 01:28:47.011
wildlife under control.

01:28:48.552 --> 01:28:49.913
So it's, it's funny because like,

01:28:50.354 --> 01:28:51.795
I think the, the difference,

01:28:52.916 --> 01:28:54.317
I don't know about the UK specifically,

01:28:54.577 --> 01:28:55.478
but it's maybe because you

01:28:55.518 --> 01:28:58.539
trust your administration, um,

01:28:58.939 --> 01:29:00.801
to actually, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

01:29:00.822 --> 01:29:01.221
no, no, no.

01:29:01.261 --> 01:29:02.143
We've just had the worst

01:29:02.203 --> 01:29:03.543
government for the last 14

01:29:03.543 --> 01:29:05.545
years that has happened since the war,

01:29:05.645 --> 01:29:06.786
probably the worst government.

01:29:07.506 --> 01:29:07.627
Well,

01:29:07.646 --> 01:29:08.828
there've been some really bad other

01:29:08.847 --> 01:29:09.207
governments.

01:29:09.942 --> 01:29:11.344
Every government is always

01:29:11.404 --> 01:29:12.746
worse than the previous one.

01:29:13.025 --> 01:29:14.347
They don't seem to get better.

01:29:14.427 --> 01:29:16.470
This was pretty special.

01:29:16.530 --> 01:29:17.752
And they also seem to get

01:29:17.813 --> 01:29:20.115
worse at spending money subsequently.

01:29:21.117 --> 01:29:22.217
Like they just get fiscally

01:29:22.278 --> 01:29:23.359
dumber as it goes along.

01:29:24.041 --> 01:29:26.404
But from anyone I've ever talked to.