WEBVTT

00:00:00.169 --> 00:00:01.110
It might be steel, actually.

00:00:01.490 --> 00:00:02.029
Maybe it's steel.

00:00:03.091 --> 00:00:04.451
Power-coated steel.

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I mean,

00:00:05.173 --> 00:00:07.054
how long does a standing C metal

00:00:07.073 --> 00:00:07.674
roof last?

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50 years?

00:00:11.637 --> 00:00:12.096
30 to 50?

00:00:12.557 --> 00:00:13.618
Yeah.

00:00:14.739 --> 00:00:16.039
So that's actually the answer, then.

00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:16.881
There we go.

00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:17.521
We've solved it.

00:00:18.042 --> 00:00:18.242
Why?

00:00:18.382 --> 00:00:19.202
What do you mean that's the answer?

00:00:19.882 --> 00:00:20.082
Well,

00:00:20.103 --> 00:00:23.225
because slate tiles can last fucking

00:00:23.285 --> 00:00:23.925
hundreds of years.

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Yeah, you still have to replace them,

00:00:25.574 --> 00:00:26.195
though, right?

00:00:26.214 --> 00:00:26.934
They still get cracked.

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You still have the same issue.

00:00:28.515 --> 00:00:31.138
Individually, yeah, but like... Yeah.

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My roof's a hundred and...

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hundred and... My roof's a

00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:38.781
hundred and... Yeah, I...

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welcome to game of nodes a

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weekly podcast from

00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:58.381
independent validator teams

00:00:58.441 --> 00:00:59.220
and this week I think we

00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:01.262
need to tackle the most

00:01:01.322 --> 00:01:03.762
important topic of the week

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straight off the bat which

00:01:04.962 --> 00:01:10.084
is um you know that shot

00:01:10.123 --> 00:01:13.504
that missed right so two

00:01:13.524 --> 00:01:14.665
minutes from two minutes

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from two minutes from so

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two minutes from extra time

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so two minutes from extra time

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So two minutes from extra time,

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and England are knocked out

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of the Euros in the final,

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once again dashing the

00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:28.331
hopes and dreams of a country.

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To be fair, it was a cracking save.

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It was a cracking save.

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I don't follow football

00:01:35.596 --> 00:01:37.596
enough to even know which

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Spanish players saved it,

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but it was a deflection,

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then a second shot, then a header away.

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you know that is that is

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football that's that's why

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they call it a beautiful

00:01:48.442 --> 00:01:51.587
game um and so yeah I'm not

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really aware of that's the

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first time since like 1996

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I thought that england

00:01:55.469 --> 00:01:57.331
might actually finally win

00:01:57.371 --> 00:01:58.974
something at football and

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once again my dreams were

00:01:59.995 --> 00:02:01.296
dashed and I've returned to

00:02:01.376 --> 00:02:03.537
cycling grumpily because

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it's actually a sport where

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I understand it and i

00:02:07.590 --> 00:02:09.531
people I follow win things

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so that's been my week how

00:02:11.731 --> 00:02:13.151
are you fellas what what

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happened speaking of

00:02:14.633 --> 00:02:17.353
speaking of uh sorry did

00:02:17.393 --> 00:02:18.693
the football drama not

00:02:18.752 --> 00:02:20.693
cross the cross the pot no

00:02:21.074 --> 00:02:22.033
is it this is a eurocom

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right speaking of sports

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ball uh sports ball um this

00:02:31.235 --> 00:02:32.477
is this is partially why we

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don't have news today uh rama

00:02:35.395 --> 00:02:37.497
was out watching the football last night.

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In Australia, there's different states,

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and there's a grudge match

00:02:45.485 --> 00:02:47.867
of rugby league called the

00:02:47.907 --> 00:02:48.549
State of Origin,

00:02:48.729 --> 00:02:50.229
and it was the final match last night.

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So I believe that Rama was

00:02:54.093 --> 00:02:54.813
out watching that.

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I'm participating in a

00:02:57.657 --> 00:02:59.838
little bit of football hooliganism,

00:02:59.859 --> 00:03:00.419
presumably.

00:03:01.342 --> 00:03:02.503
That doesn't happen in Australia.

00:03:02.663 --> 00:03:04.846
We're respectful of the streets.

00:03:05.947 --> 00:03:08.028
Just absolute respect.

00:03:08.128 --> 00:03:09.569
There's never any kind of

00:03:09.750 --> 00:03:11.110
public disturbances in Australia.

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That's what I've heard.

00:03:12.472 --> 00:03:14.913
We shuffle in in a perfect

00:03:14.954 --> 00:03:16.254
line and we shuffle out in

00:03:16.294 --> 00:03:17.036
a perfect line.

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We wait respectfully at the

00:03:19.258 --> 00:03:23.721
taxi stand and beat our

00:03:23.741 --> 00:03:24.382
wives when we get home.

00:03:28.082 --> 00:03:29.704
Well, the last bit's probably true.

00:03:29.864 --> 00:03:31.704
Go to the bar, eat a two-up, come home.

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People don't do that anymore.

00:03:34.445 --> 00:03:36.967
They don't do it anymore.

00:03:36.986 --> 00:03:37.646
What's two-up?

00:03:38.167 --> 00:03:38.967
They don't play two-up.

00:03:40.187 --> 00:03:40.687
They play two-up.

00:03:42.128 --> 00:03:44.509
Two-up is... You can only

00:03:44.530 --> 00:03:45.550
play that on one day of the year.

00:03:46.931 --> 00:03:47.770
So they do still do it.

00:03:47.790 --> 00:03:50.632
It's literally illegal every other day.

00:03:51.932 --> 00:03:52.532
Which is a bit dumb.

00:03:52.573 --> 00:03:52.793
Is it?

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Why?

00:03:54.533 --> 00:03:56.074
I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Because, like,

00:04:00.055 --> 00:04:01.575
Big Gamble can't make money out of it.

00:04:04.038 --> 00:04:06.641
Oh, okay.

00:04:06.681 --> 00:04:07.823
I mean, it's a game of chance, right?

00:04:07.923 --> 00:04:09.104
It's a game of chance, so, like,

00:04:10.526 --> 00:04:11.828
it seems like, I mean,

00:04:12.008 --> 00:04:13.329
you can't really control a two-up game,

00:04:14.270 --> 00:04:14.409
right?

00:04:14.430 --> 00:04:15.330
Yeah, that's it.

00:04:15.390 --> 00:04:15.632
Yeah,

00:04:15.711 --> 00:04:18.213
you can't rig it in favor of the house,

00:04:18.355 --> 00:04:19.276
so what's the point?

00:04:19.975 --> 00:04:21.317
Oh, it's too fair.

00:04:22.942 --> 00:04:24.964
It's too fair.

00:04:24.985 --> 00:04:26.024
Yeah, it's 50-50, right?

00:04:26.045 --> 00:04:26.505
It's 50-50.

00:04:26.526 --> 00:04:27.446
No, no, it's not.

00:04:28.107 --> 00:04:29.148
It's because it's two coins,

00:04:30.108 --> 00:04:30.588
as we all know.

00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:33.750
Yeah,

00:04:34.651 --> 00:04:35.971
I guess they must affect the odds of

00:04:36.052 --> 00:04:36.552
the other one.

00:04:38.053 --> 00:04:41.935
Let's not get into statistics.

00:04:42.336 --> 00:04:43.677
If we understood statistics,

00:04:43.718 --> 00:04:45.158
we wouldn't be losing money right now.

00:04:46.403 --> 00:04:47.403
So nobody knows that he

00:04:47.423 --> 00:04:49.124
knows he's live because it

00:04:49.184 --> 00:04:50.704
looks like Twitter now

00:04:51.084 --> 00:04:52.685
requires a premium account

00:04:53.225 --> 00:04:54.307
to do live broadcasts.

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Yeah.

00:04:56.327 --> 00:04:58.788
We're not on the tweet anymore.

00:04:59.689 --> 00:05:01.870
That's why we've been fucked over.

00:05:02.730 --> 00:05:03.451
There's no Twitters.

00:05:04.190 --> 00:05:07.351
This is Elon slowly nickel

00:05:07.411 --> 00:05:08.612
and diming Twitter.

00:05:08.952 --> 00:05:10.374
He had to make money out of it eventually,

00:05:10.454 --> 00:05:10.553
right?

00:05:11.374 --> 00:05:12.855
Yeah, from somebody.

00:05:14.314 --> 00:05:14.714
Yeah,

00:05:15.274 --> 00:05:17.757
Game of Nodes getting nickel and dime

00:05:17.797 --> 00:05:18.076
voice.

00:05:18.576 --> 00:05:19.437
He's not going to have a

00:05:19.478 --> 00:05:20.637
damn cent from me.

00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:23.540
Well, we can take it out of the Dow.

00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:27.380
We don't have any money in the Dow.

00:05:28.461 --> 00:05:29.923
Everything's coming together for us.

00:05:31.663 --> 00:05:32.843
We must have some money in the Dow.

00:05:33.685 --> 00:05:35.504
Everything's coming together for us.

00:05:35.524 --> 00:05:38.906
It's all coming together.

00:05:41.377 --> 00:05:42.458
Big Cosmos Energy.

00:05:42.497 --> 00:05:44.298
Should we make the DAO at ICS today?

00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:45.858
Should we?

00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:46.860
Yeah.

00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:48.581
ICS, yeah.

00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.281
Look, do you know what?

00:05:51.322 --> 00:05:52.202
The joking aside,

00:05:52.603 --> 00:05:55.524
the hub would be lucky to have us.

00:05:56.144 --> 00:05:57.906
If we went to the hub,

00:05:57.946 --> 00:05:59.447
then the hub would finally

00:05:59.487 --> 00:06:00.408
have a use case,

00:06:00.867 --> 00:06:01.387
something they've been

00:06:01.427 --> 00:06:03.928
searching for for like six years,

00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:06.790
seven years, whatever, this podcast.

00:06:08.632 --> 00:06:10.213
Delivering value every day, baby.

00:06:11.511 --> 00:06:11.870
Every day.

00:06:12.312 --> 00:06:16.074
Most consistent thing.

00:06:16.254 --> 00:06:18.817
Other than Terra.de's spam

00:06:18.918 --> 00:06:20.139
Cosmos prop proposals,

00:06:20.358 --> 00:06:21.300
this is the second most

00:06:21.339 --> 00:06:22.600
consistent thing in the Cosmos.

00:06:23.901 --> 00:06:24.862
It's ironic, isn't it,

00:06:24.942 --> 00:06:28.466
that such a jaded podcast

00:06:28.507 --> 00:06:29.326
that doesn't even really

00:06:29.367 --> 00:06:31.408
focus on the Cosmos anymore.

00:06:31.670 --> 00:06:32.410
With no viewers.

00:06:33.589 --> 00:06:35.711
it is is actually one of the

00:06:35.810 --> 00:06:37.651
longest running cultural

00:06:37.870 --> 00:06:39.632
and and technical artifacts

00:06:39.771 --> 00:06:42.572
of the entire ecosystem you

00:06:42.593 --> 00:06:44.252
know we just it's not much

00:06:44.333 --> 00:06:45.413
but it's honest work you

00:06:45.434 --> 00:06:46.694
know that's game of notes

00:06:46.733 --> 00:06:48.274
in a nutshell right it's

00:06:48.314 --> 00:06:49.415
not it's work I just put a

00:06:49.435 --> 00:06:50.254
nice tweet and I was

00:06:50.274 --> 00:06:51.055
looking for our game of

00:06:51.096 --> 00:06:51.855
notes tree because I always

00:06:51.896 --> 00:06:53.415
like retweet that but it

00:06:53.456 --> 00:06:56.576
doesn't exist I got uh I

00:06:56.596 --> 00:06:58.317
got I got blocked out of

00:06:58.418 --> 00:07:01.999
the twitter on my on my browser so

00:07:03.595 --> 00:07:08.877
I got, what are they just like, unlog you,

00:07:09.838 --> 00:07:12.860
offlog, outlog, log out you, log off you.

00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:13.360
Log you out.

00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.362
Yeah, log you out from all of my accounts.

00:07:17.762 --> 00:07:18.863
You got unlogged.

00:07:20.084 --> 00:07:20.685
I got unlogged.

00:07:20.704 --> 00:07:21.545
You got unstaked.

00:07:21.565 --> 00:07:22.165
You got unbonded.

00:07:22.206 --> 00:07:23.125
You got unlogged.

00:07:23.146 --> 00:07:24.067
You got soft slashed.

00:07:25.408 --> 00:07:25.627
Yeah.

00:07:26.088 --> 00:07:26.608
Oh, man.

00:07:30.011 --> 00:07:30.711
Yeah, so anyway.

00:07:32.922 --> 00:07:33.822
Looking at our DAO,

00:07:33.862 --> 00:07:36.403
we actually do have 400 USDC.

00:07:36.423 --> 00:07:38.744
200 of that belongs to Rama.

00:07:40.125 --> 00:07:41.185
No, no, no.

00:07:41.204 --> 00:07:42.625
150 belongs to Rama.

00:07:44.365 --> 00:07:45.067
No news this week.

00:07:45.826 --> 00:07:47.127
No news, yeah.

00:07:47.148 --> 00:07:48.887
You get drunk and you end up

00:07:48.947 --> 00:07:49.648
at the footy or whatever

00:07:49.668 --> 00:07:51.209
the hell he is and you sleep two days.

00:07:51.309 --> 00:07:54.329
You're docked, guy.

00:07:54.649 --> 00:07:55.571
You're fucking docked.

00:07:55.750 --> 00:07:56.511
Wait, wait, wait.

00:07:56.531 --> 00:07:57.571
So you're saying that we

00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:01.632
give shit to Elon for nickel and diming?

00:08:02.793 --> 00:08:03.233
Exactly.

00:08:03.254 --> 00:08:05.916
Hey,

00:08:06.516 --> 00:08:07.978
we hold our news researcher to a

00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:10.060
pretty high standard, to be honest.

00:08:10.100 --> 00:08:13.903
This is just like that fucking problem.

00:08:13.923 --> 00:08:16.846
This is deep lore, sorry.

00:08:16.865 --> 00:08:19.728
Do you remember when

00:08:19.889 --> 00:08:21.149
PlayStation Network was

00:08:21.329 --> 00:08:23.891
free and Xbox Live cost

00:08:23.992 --> 00:08:26.314
money and every PlayStation

00:08:26.334 --> 00:08:26.995
owner was just like,

00:08:27.454 --> 00:08:30.458
I don't have to pay Microsoft like

00:08:31.331 --> 00:08:32.191
twenty dollars a month or

00:08:32.211 --> 00:08:33.410
whatever to play online

00:08:33.431 --> 00:08:33.951
with my friends

00:08:34.011 --> 00:08:35.172
playstation's the best and

00:08:35.211 --> 00:08:36.172
then of course the next

00:08:36.231 --> 00:08:37.251
version of playstation that

00:08:37.272 --> 00:08:37.912
came out they were like

00:08:38.792 --> 00:08:40.812
introducing you paid for

00:08:40.852 --> 00:08:42.013
the same thing that used to

00:08:42.072 --> 00:08:43.413
be free and you're like

00:08:43.432 --> 00:08:49.514
fuck yeah that's literally

00:08:49.634 --> 00:08:50.835
that's that's how they

00:08:50.855 --> 00:08:52.095
build these platforms they

00:08:52.315 --> 00:08:54.495
uh they free you up and

00:08:54.534 --> 00:08:55.676
then they just fucking

00:08:55.855 --> 00:08:57.135
backhand you with the subscription

00:08:57.918 --> 00:08:59.057
They just go, bam.

00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:01.739
Now you need to pay me even fucking,

00:09:02.058 --> 00:09:05.700
you know, like, so, you know,

00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:06.620
like last year I was

00:09:06.659 --> 00:09:07.821
painting model tanks to

00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:09.520
deal with a nervous breakdown,

00:09:09.801 --> 00:09:11.302
as is my habit.

00:09:13.581 --> 00:09:13.782
Right.

00:09:14.123 --> 00:09:14.722
Okay.

00:09:15.442 --> 00:09:16.243
So joking aside,

00:09:16.302 --> 00:09:18.764
I got into playing Team Yankee.

00:09:18.803 --> 00:09:19.183
It's great.

00:09:19.224 --> 00:09:19.663
It's cool.

00:09:20.183 --> 00:09:20.703
Don't at me.

00:09:23.522 --> 00:09:25.543
It's one of the few things in life, right,

00:09:25.644 --> 00:09:27.245
where you buy some model tanks,

00:09:27.325 --> 00:09:28.525
you build them, you paint them,

00:09:29.147 --> 00:09:30.368
and you play a game on the kitchen table,

00:09:30.488 --> 00:09:30.727
right?

00:09:33.702 --> 00:09:34.764
There's no subscription.

00:09:34.823 --> 00:09:35.764
You just need a couple of

00:09:35.825 --> 00:09:36.625
mates and some beers.

00:09:36.725 --> 00:09:37.365
I guess you need a

00:09:37.405 --> 00:09:39.027
subscription to buy some beers, right?

00:09:39.067 --> 00:09:40.428
But you can buy them from the supermarket.

00:09:40.448 --> 00:09:41.328
You don't need a subscription.

00:09:41.889 --> 00:09:42.490
It's amazing.

00:09:42.570 --> 00:09:43.211
It's refreshing.

00:09:43.551 --> 00:09:43.890
Love it.

00:09:44.552 --> 00:09:44.871
Okay.

00:09:45.633 --> 00:09:46.994
Made the mistake of taking a

00:09:47.014 --> 00:09:48.154
delivery from my parents'

00:09:48.254 --> 00:09:49.716
loft of a bunch of my

00:09:49.916 --> 00:09:51.857
Warhammer when I was nine years old.

00:09:53.479 --> 00:09:54.679
Spent some time converting

00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.121
some of it to be valid for

00:09:56.721 --> 00:09:58.383
one of the Games Workshop game systems.

00:09:59.471 --> 00:10:00.913
uh and and got in playing

00:10:00.952 --> 00:10:03.094
that as well that shit

00:10:03.294 --> 00:10:04.375
literally has a release

00:10:04.414 --> 00:10:06.076
fucking cycle for it and

00:10:06.096 --> 00:10:07.277
it's almost it's not like a

00:10:07.317 --> 00:10:08.638
subscription but like you

00:10:08.677 --> 00:10:09.759
have to pay attention

00:10:10.099 --> 00:10:11.080
because the rules go

00:10:11.139 --> 00:10:12.220
fucking out of day every

00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:13.581
quarter because they're

00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.042
like oh there was a there

00:10:15.062 --> 00:10:15.701
was a tour and these

00:10:15.721 --> 00:10:16.582
tournaments fucking huge

00:10:16.602 --> 00:10:18.024
they're like 256 players

00:10:18.063 --> 00:10:19.105
where they'll be like oh at

00:10:19.144 --> 00:10:20.806
the tacoma open tournament

00:10:20.926 --> 00:10:22.567
and you're like where is tacoma anyway

00:10:23.506 --> 00:10:24.288
That was a joke.

00:10:25.649 --> 00:10:26.470
They're like, oh,

00:10:26.570 --> 00:10:28.331
one of the factions was really unbalanced,

00:10:28.370 --> 00:10:29.491
so we've literally changed

00:10:29.511 --> 00:10:30.412
the fucking rulebook.

00:10:30.451 --> 00:10:32.514
And you're like, look, this isn't iTunes,

00:10:32.774 --> 00:10:33.634
which I know they actually

00:10:33.674 --> 00:10:34.875
deleted a while ago, whatever.

00:10:35.275 --> 00:10:36.196
This isn't iTunes.

00:10:36.235 --> 00:10:37.797
I don't need you to update my factions.

00:10:38.418 --> 00:10:39.238
Play the game.

00:10:39.339 --> 00:10:39.839
Whatever, anyway.

00:10:39.859 --> 00:10:41.960
I just want to push some toy

00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:42.980
soldiers around a table.

00:10:43.020 --> 00:10:44.922
I don't need a fucking software update.

00:10:45.062 --> 00:10:45.982
What's wrong with you people?

00:10:47.624 --> 00:10:47.965
Speaking of that,

00:10:47.985 --> 00:10:48.705
we should do a subscription

00:10:48.725 --> 00:10:49.284
for Game of Nodes.

00:10:49.725 --> 00:10:49.846
Yeah.

00:10:51.772 --> 00:10:53.192
patreon I mean clearly

00:10:54.013 --> 00:10:56.214
clearly it worked we should

00:10:56.274 --> 00:10:58.135
start a patreon just just

00:10:58.176 --> 00:11:00.356
to complete because this

00:11:00.376 --> 00:11:01.977
delegation performance art

00:11:02.077 --> 00:11:03.138
we should have a patreon

00:11:03.778 --> 00:11:04.739
right delegation thing is

00:11:04.778 --> 00:11:08.280
not doing it yeah exactly

00:11:08.421 --> 00:11:09.961
yeah and of course a big

00:11:09.981 --> 00:11:11.562
shout out to our patreons

00:11:11.582 --> 00:11:14.664
without whom without whom and without a

00:11:15.672 --> 00:11:17.373
A hefty amount of shit coins

00:11:17.432 --> 00:11:19.692
cashed out in 2021.

00:11:19.692 --> 00:11:21.573
We would not be here today.

00:11:21.653 --> 00:11:21.953
I know.

00:11:23.313 --> 00:11:23.653
Yeah.

00:11:23.673 --> 00:11:25.034
So if you guys at home think

00:11:25.075 --> 00:11:26.615
that we should have a Patreon,

00:11:26.654 --> 00:11:28.696
just comment in the comments below.

00:11:28.716 --> 00:11:30.576
Don't comment in the comments below,

00:11:30.655 --> 00:11:30.937
actually.

00:11:30.956 --> 00:11:31.817
If you comment,

00:11:31.836 --> 00:11:32.756
then we know that you won't want it.

00:11:32.777 --> 00:11:33.677
But if you don't,

00:11:33.697 --> 00:11:35.337
then we know that you're alive.

00:11:35.357 --> 00:11:37.018
You're down for it.

00:11:37.818 --> 00:11:40.198
Have we ever had a comment on a video?

00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:41.580
Yeah, we get a bunch.

00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:41.679
Yeah.

00:11:43.171 --> 00:11:43.591
Not a bunch.

00:11:43.650 --> 00:11:44.432
Did we answer them?

00:11:44.471 --> 00:11:45.052
I mean,

00:11:45.092 --> 00:11:46.994
we had a couple hundred or 120 episodes.

00:11:47.554 --> 00:11:48.895
I mean, the live stuff never counts,

00:11:48.916 --> 00:11:49.076
right?

00:11:49.115 --> 00:11:49.897
It's just like other ones.

00:11:49.956 --> 00:11:51.057
But we do get every once in a while,

00:11:51.097 --> 00:11:51.938
we get people saying like,

00:11:52.078 --> 00:11:53.539
thank you or nice or this or that.

00:11:53.681 --> 00:11:55.442
Hey, man, what is this shit?

00:11:55.601 --> 00:11:58.144
We never ask to subscribe.

00:11:58.644 --> 00:12:00.326
If you're not subscribed to this podcast,

00:12:00.346 --> 00:12:01.006
you should subscribe.

00:12:01.226 --> 00:12:01.668
See, I did it.

00:12:03.057 --> 00:12:04.557
Hey,

00:12:04.658 --> 00:12:08.158
I think we're almost 100,000

00:12:08.158 --> 00:12:09.139
subscribers now.

00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:10.220
So we're going to be doing a

00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:11.941
sticker giveaway at 100,000.

00:12:11.941 --> 00:12:15.221
So to help us get there,

00:12:15.261 --> 00:12:16.822
just make sure you subscribe.

00:12:16.861 --> 00:12:17.802
Pass it around to your friends.

00:12:17.822 --> 00:12:18.482
We're only 999,000 away.

00:12:18.523 --> 00:12:19.583
Pass it around.

00:12:19.644 --> 00:12:24.184
We've got a countdown clock somewhere.

00:12:24.205 --> 00:12:24.544
We're doing it.

00:12:24.565 --> 00:12:25.125
Yeah, it's like at 100,000 still.

00:12:33.855 --> 00:12:36.476
oh man I mean like I feel I

00:12:36.817 --> 00:12:37.937
do you know what you know I

00:12:37.977 --> 00:12:39.078
think I think there has

00:12:39.158 --> 00:12:40.759
been enough of a broad

00:12:40.818 --> 00:12:42.159
range of fucking topics

00:12:42.220 --> 00:12:45.221
discussed on this over 120

00:12:45.221 --> 00:12:47.422
plus episodes with a broad

00:12:47.442 --> 00:12:48.623
enough reading list I think

00:12:48.663 --> 00:12:49.923
if we continue at this rate

00:12:50.903 --> 00:12:52.585
in another 300 episodes

00:12:54.125 --> 00:12:55.365
we'll be at a point where

00:12:56.942 --> 00:12:57.722
know all those like

00:12:57.802 --> 00:12:58.884
investment podcasts where

00:12:58.903 --> 00:13:00.464
they're like this podcast

00:13:00.504 --> 00:13:02.303
will make you rich and

00:13:02.323 --> 00:13:03.384
stuff and like obviously

00:13:03.404 --> 00:13:04.565
not great because they just

00:13:04.605 --> 00:13:06.024
say they basically spend

00:13:06.024 --> 00:13:07.946
200 episodes going like do

00:13:08.005 --> 00:13:10.147
boggle heads but first and

00:13:10.167 --> 00:13:11.167
you're like okay cool do

00:13:11.206 --> 00:13:12.506
boggle heads okay that's an

00:13:12.547 --> 00:13:14.388
investment strategy but I

00:13:14.427 --> 00:13:15.727
need money to invest first

00:13:15.748 --> 00:13:16.687
and they're like I'm out

00:13:17.989 --> 00:13:19.168
they're like get a good job

00:13:19.229 --> 00:13:21.230
nerd it's a skill issue and

00:13:21.250 --> 00:13:22.950
you're like okay so that

00:13:22.970 --> 00:13:24.090
didn't that didn't help me

00:13:24.110 --> 00:13:25.850
you know at all but

00:13:26.721 --> 00:13:27.041
you know,

00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:28.981
between the reading list and like

00:13:29.062 --> 00:13:31.042
the watching in real time, our own,

00:13:31.121 --> 00:13:33.543
you know, business mistakes.

00:13:33.623 --> 00:13:34.082
I just realized my

00:13:34.123 --> 00:13:35.244
headphones aren't even plugged in.

00:13:35.283 --> 00:13:36.264
Good one fray.

00:13:36.283 --> 00:13:37.303
Um,

00:13:38.585 --> 00:13:40.144
maybe you could like learn from our

00:13:40.205 --> 00:13:41.525
mistakes and actually get

00:13:41.605 --> 00:13:42.905
rich yourself or like start

00:13:42.926 --> 00:13:43.865
a business or just start,

00:13:44.206 --> 00:13:44.966
you need to get rich.

00:13:45.006 --> 00:13:45.187
Just,

00:13:45.346 --> 00:13:46.927
just start a small successful business,

00:13:46.947 --> 00:13:48.128
like a coffee shop, you know,

00:13:48.587 --> 00:13:51.369
live Schultz's dream, start a coffee shop,

00:13:51.568 --> 00:13:52.869
an organic people make

00:13:52.948 --> 00:13:55.169
money out of coffee shops or

00:13:56.326 --> 00:13:56.785
I think so.

00:13:57.686 --> 00:13:58.306
I think if you,

00:13:58.466 --> 00:13:59.947
if you run it well and you

00:13:59.986 --> 00:14:03.667
have a plan for it and a, you know, um,

00:14:03.907 --> 00:14:04.506
enough regulars.

00:14:05.447 --> 00:14:05.648
Yeah.

00:14:06.268 --> 00:14:08.087
Like, I think a lot of it will hinge,

00:14:08.187 --> 00:14:09.368
not necessarily on the coffee,

00:14:09.427 --> 00:14:10.548
but on other stuff.

00:14:10.628 --> 00:14:11.828
Like you see a lot of people,

00:14:11.889 --> 00:14:14.109
you see like good bakeries, you know,

00:14:14.149 --> 00:14:15.129
where they do good coffee

00:14:15.188 --> 00:14:16.950
and they also bake bread.

00:14:17.389 --> 00:14:19.090
You know, those can, can do well.

00:14:20.129 --> 00:14:20.809
I think, I think,

00:14:20.950 --> 00:14:21.629
I don't think our podcast

00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:22.549
is about people making money.

00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:22.769
I think,

00:14:22.971 --> 00:14:24.171
I think we've kind of focused on

00:14:24.191 --> 00:14:25.671
helping them avoid losing money.

00:14:27.003 --> 00:14:28.023
which you know that's half

00:14:28.062 --> 00:14:31.024
the battle right like we're

00:14:31.043 --> 00:14:32.225
not there's no l there's no

00:14:32.304 --> 00:14:33.345
alpha on this channel it's

00:14:33.404 --> 00:14:34.806
all it's no it's the exact

00:14:34.865 --> 00:14:35.785
opposite it's like what the

00:14:35.846 --> 00:14:38.947
fuck is this shit I i don't

00:14:38.986 --> 00:14:39.807
even understand where

00:14:39.826 --> 00:14:40.807
people get off on the whole

00:14:40.868 --> 00:14:41.687
alpha thing there's so many

00:14:41.707 --> 00:14:42.748
people just be like oh my

00:14:42.788 --> 00:14:43.308
god there's gonna be so

00:14:43.328 --> 00:14:45.609
much sick alpha sick alpha

00:14:45.830 --> 00:14:46.730
sick alpha and it's like

00:14:47.509 --> 00:14:48.269
gotta be the first yeah

00:14:48.289 --> 00:14:49.230
that's just like not how well alpha

00:14:54.212 --> 00:14:55.193
I wonder how many, like,

00:14:55.734 --> 00:14:56.995
hardcore alpha seekers

00:14:57.015 --> 00:14:58.456
there are out there, but then, like,

00:14:58.517 --> 00:14:59.658
receive the alpha and then

00:14:59.697 --> 00:15:01.078
proceed to do absolutely

00:15:01.318 --> 00:15:02.340
fucking nothing with it.

00:15:04.101 --> 00:15:04.923
What do you mean by do nothing with it?

00:15:04.942 --> 00:15:05.923
I think it depends on the market,

00:15:05.942 --> 00:15:06.504
because actually, like,

00:15:06.604 --> 00:15:07.284
as much as I'm like...

00:15:08.149 --> 00:15:09.289
yeah as much as I'm like

00:15:09.330 --> 00:15:10.691
nobody nobody actually does

00:15:10.730 --> 00:15:11.672
anything with the alpha the

00:15:11.731 --> 00:15:12.631
alpha is actually garbage

00:15:13.192 --> 00:15:15.014
then again if you had

00:15:15.193 --> 00:15:16.475
accidentally got a juno

00:15:16.615 --> 00:15:18.015
airdrop accidentally got

00:15:18.056 --> 00:15:19.957
the netter airdrop and just

00:15:20.197 --> 00:15:21.438
cash that shit out just

00:15:21.479 --> 00:15:23.440
gone bam your alpha would

00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:25.902
have been and just walk

00:15:25.942 --> 00:15:27.023
away never check the price

00:15:27.062 --> 00:15:28.364
go just sell it walk away

00:15:28.984 --> 00:15:30.644
do an artifact just be like

00:15:31.346 --> 00:15:32.547
I forgot I forgot about netta

00:15:33.606 --> 00:15:35.128
Hands up if you actually

00:15:35.227 --> 00:15:38.549
sold your netter when it dropped.

00:15:38.951 --> 00:15:39.730
I had a small number too,

00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:40.552
but it was still worth like,

00:15:40.572 --> 00:15:42.092
I think it was like $40,000 or $50,000.

00:15:42.092 --> 00:15:44.354
And I never did anything with it.

00:15:44.374 --> 00:15:45.134
I think it was like $40,000 or $50,000.

00:15:45.215 --> 00:15:46.775
I was like, nah, this is going to be more.

00:15:47.635 --> 00:15:47.995
Mine was $50,000.

00:15:48.096 --> 00:15:49.376
It's still sitting there.

00:15:50.177 --> 00:15:50.697
It's like $3 there.

00:15:50.717 --> 00:15:52.418
I don't even know where it is.

00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:54.380
I'm kind of impressed it's $3.

00:15:55.721 --> 00:15:56.201
Exactly.

00:15:56.741 --> 00:15:57.101
Like...

00:15:59.649 --> 00:16:02.730
What was the Dex one, the wind?

00:16:02.950 --> 00:16:04.490
I was like, oh, that's nice.

00:16:04.750 --> 00:16:05.530
I'll hold on to that.

00:16:05.551 --> 00:16:07.211
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:07.791 --> 00:16:08.730
And there was another one.

00:16:08.770 --> 00:16:10.231
But the Dex before that, I was like, oh,

00:16:10.272 --> 00:16:10.672
that's good.

00:16:10.731 --> 00:16:11.371
I'll hold on to that.

00:16:11.392 --> 00:16:12.192
That's right,

00:16:12.211 --> 00:16:12.851
because that was the one

00:16:12.871 --> 00:16:14.692
where I think I staked something for like,

00:16:14.732 --> 00:16:15.633
it was like two years.

00:16:15.653 --> 00:16:17.493
Wasn't there like a two-year option?

00:16:17.513 --> 00:16:18.533
You could put something into

00:16:18.572 --> 00:16:19.354
a pool or something?

00:16:19.413 --> 00:16:21.394
It was like five years or something.

00:16:21.953 --> 00:16:22.614
There were some options.

00:16:22.634 --> 00:16:23.114
Scammed.

00:16:25.054 --> 00:16:25.475
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:27.634 --> 00:16:28.554
They launched that and

00:16:28.595 --> 00:16:30.275
walked... There's so much shit on Juno,

00:16:30.316 --> 00:16:31.256
which was okay.

00:16:31.437 --> 00:16:32.758
And then they just launched

00:16:32.837 --> 00:16:33.999
it with a good idea and

00:16:34.038 --> 00:16:35.659
then fucking turned around

00:16:35.779 --> 00:16:36.520
and walked away.

00:16:36.541 --> 00:16:39.383
And it's going, fuck, and there you go.

00:16:40.724 --> 00:16:41.663
That's the problem with...

00:16:42.125 --> 00:16:44.025
This is the problem with

00:16:44.086 --> 00:16:46.587
grants because... I feel very seen,

00:16:46.628 --> 00:16:47.089
by the way.

00:16:50.291 --> 00:16:52.393
Grants don't come from a place of,

00:16:53.933 --> 00:16:54.214
you know...

00:16:56.299 --> 00:16:58.321
enthusiasm right grants come

00:16:59.302 --> 00:17:00.422
you know products products

00:17:00.522 --> 00:17:01.523
out of grants don't come

00:17:01.562 --> 00:17:02.863
from a place of enthusiasm

00:17:02.903 --> 00:17:04.824
they come from a place of

00:17:04.984 --> 00:17:07.165
opportunistic fucking grab

00:17:07.185 --> 00:17:09.406
some cash do a minimum

00:17:10.702 --> 00:17:12.183
viable product push it out

00:17:12.344 --> 00:17:13.724
get the you know hit the

00:17:13.744 --> 00:17:15.605
milestones get the cash and

00:17:15.625 --> 00:17:16.747
then there is no obligation

00:17:16.807 --> 00:17:17.548
after that but if you're

00:17:17.567 --> 00:17:18.567
not if your heart's not in

00:17:18.607 --> 00:17:19.469
it it's always going to be

00:17:19.489 --> 00:17:20.950
a fucking turd or it's

00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:21.810
never going to survive

00:17:21.871 --> 00:17:23.092
because or succeed because

00:17:23.112 --> 00:17:24.352
you just you do it and then

00:17:24.372 --> 00:17:25.272
you know I've got my money

00:17:25.353 --> 00:17:26.834
so I'll see you later uh

00:17:29.715 --> 00:17:31.297
thanks community pool and

00:17:31.336 --> 00:17:33.519
then uh you know that's it

00:17:33.679 --> 00:17:35.599
but if if you if you don't

00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:36.540
get anything for it when

00:17:36.560 --> 00:17:37.121
you're building your

00:17:37.141 --> 00:17:38.061
product they're the ones that

00:17:38.654 --> 00:17:39.855
do much better you're in

00:17:39.894 --> 00:17:42.076
there grinding you're doing

00:17:42.096 --> 00:17:43.115
it all for free you have to

00:17:43.155 --> 00:17:43.936
make money out of it at

00:17:43.997 --> 00:17:46.837
some point so they're the I

00:17:46.857 --> 00:17:47.397
feel like they're the

00:17:47.417 --> 00:17:48.258
products that have a better

00:17:48.298 --> 00:17:49.618
chance of surviving passion

00:17:49.638 --> 00:17:51.118
projects that turn into

00:17:51.179 --> 00:17:52.179
money rather than money

00:17:52.519 --> 00:18:01.201
producing turds wow yeah I

00:18:01.241 --> 00:18:01.902
mean yeah we know you're

00:18:01.922 --> 00:18:03.583
guilty the fray of

00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:06.133
producing a turd hey look

00:18:06.272 --> 00:18:08.355
okay so your thesis is

00:18:08.434 --> 00:18:10.155
correct in the everybody

00:18:10.215 --> 00:18:11.336
makes them man everyone

00:18:11.376 --> 00:18:13.058
makes turds I do one every

00:18:13.078 --> 00:18:14.720
day well the the name

00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:16.080
service was something where

00:18:17.241 --> 00:18:18.383
it was not it was naughty

00:18:18.423 --> 00:18:19.644
as fuck but it was kind of

00:18:19.683 --> 00:18:20.845
vaguely interesting to just

00:18:20.904 --> 00:18:22.026
knock out of the course of

00:18:22.066 --> 00:18:23.126
three weeks around the day

00:18:23.146 --> 00:18:25.950
job and genuinely like was

00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:26.911
kind of interested in just

00:18:27.111 --> 00:18:29.512
getting it shipped and then

00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:33.563
And then Hal took a lot

00:18:33.603 --> 00:18:34.964
longer and yadda yadda

00:18:34.984 --> 00:18:36.667
yadda and fucking died and

00:18:36.688 --> 00:18:37.328
we died with it.

00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:40.272
So maybe there's a little...

00:18:40.633 --> 00:18:41.634
But that's also timing.

00:18:41.795 --> 00:18:42.695
That's also timing.

00:18:43.156 --> 00:18:43.336
Well,

00:18:43.356 --> 00:18:47.103
I mean... Hal died because Juno died.

00:18:48.228 --> 00:18:49.028
Well, yes, also.

00:18:49.388 --> 00:18:51.029
If Juno was still at $20 a share,

00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:53.832
there would have been a lot

00:18:53.872 --> 00:18:54.772
more significant amount of

00:18:54.792 --> 00:18:56.713
development going on and marketing.

00:18:56.733 --> 00:18:57.974
Do not say share.

00:18:57.994 --> 00:18:59.915
Did I say share?

00:19:00.076 --> 00:19:00.317
I did.

00:19:00.517 --> 00:19:00.757
Sorry.

00:19:01.637 --> 00:19:02.117
That's funny.

00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.000
I mean,

00:19:05.019 --> 00:19:06.361
that's one of the issues of

00:19:06.381 --> 00:19:07.142
building on a platform is

00:19:07.162 --> 00:19:08.502
that your economics are

00:19:08.542 --> 00:19:10.064
obviously tied to that platform, right?

00:19:10.364 --> 00:19:10.943
And so things that are

00:19:10.963 --> 00:19:11.605
outside of your control...

00:19:13.526 --> 00:19:14.906
cough cough cough ICS cough

00:19:14.926 --> 00:19:18.308
cough cough ICS yeah I mean

00:19:18.368 --> 00:19:20.530
they all they all 100% have

00:19:20.590 --> 00:19:21.791
impact on the on whatever

00:19:21.811 --> 00:19:22.731
you're building in the

00:19:22.872 --> 00:19:24.252
future of that right so

00:19:24.953 --> 00:19:27.214
yeah yeah I mean by the

00:19:27.234 --> 00:19:28.615
time you use ICS like just

00:19:28.736 --> 00:19:29.777
fucking go build on ETH

00:19:30.297 --> 00:19:31.458
literally what the fuck are

00:19:31.478 --> 00:19:32.317
you even doing in Cosmos

00:19:32.417 --> 00:19:33.338
don't bother but the gas

00:19:33.378 --> 00:19:35.299
fees I mean the gas fees

00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.622
use an L2 but the gas fees

00:19:37.662 --> 00:19:40.584
you're using L2 man the gas

00:19:40.624 --> 00:19:42.464
fees on ETH are like fuck all

00:19:43.234 --> 00:19:45.916
I'm happy to use it for like

00:19:45.916 --> 00:19:47.519
30 cents for a fucking transaction.

00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:50.161
It's over.

00:19:50.681 --> 00:19:51.162
It's over.

00:19:51.201 --> 00:19:51.821
We were late.

00:19:52.803 --> 00:19:53.463
We're early.

00:19:53.604 --> 00:19:54.585
We're early.

00:19:54.684 --> 00:19:55.525
What if we're late?

00:19:55.726 --> 00:19:57.886
What if we're actually late?

00:19:58.708 --> 00:20:01.609
Little Dave says,

00:20:01.971 --> 00:20:03.311
Juno's basically a mass

00:20:03.332 --> 00:20:04.172
grifter graveyard.

00:20:04.271 --> 00:20:08.375
Yeah, I think it's probably about right.

00:20:08.675 --> 00:20:09.757
That is a sensational

00:20:09.797 --> 00:20:10.798
alliteration as well.

00:20:11.655 --> 00:20:16.278
gg this week this week we've

00:20:16.298 --> 00:20:17.419
had a little bit of price

00:20:17.979 --> 00:20:21.361
uh a little uplift stays up

00:20:21.401 --> 00:20:23.721
seven percent aptos up 17

00:20:23.721 --> 00:20:26.663
this week not gonna lie I

00:20:26.804 --> 00:20:29.384
am uh I am fully divested

00:20:29.444 --> 00:20:35.528
from juno at atl um

00:20:36.251 --> 00:20:42.236
Speaking of making sales,

00:20:42.715 --> 00:20:46.838
we just had the end of

00:20:46.919 --> 00:20:48.480
financial year in Australia,

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:50.681
which is the tax year.

00:20:51.101 --> 00:20:52.961
It ends in June 30,

00:20:52.961 --> 00:20:54.022
at which point you become

00:20:54.103 --> 00:20:55.983
liable to the government for the monies,

00:20:56.003 --> 00:20:56.404
right?

00:20:56.424 --> 00:20:56.545
Yeah.

00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.961
So we've spoken before about

00:21:00.221 --> 00:21:01.442
I do my tax a little funky.

00:21:01.804 --> 00:21:02.664
It's well within the law.

00:21:03.184 --> 00:21:03.744
And actually,

00:21:04.306 --> 00:21:06.107
the tax department has given

00:21:06.147 --> 00:21:08.809
advice on that stuff recently.

00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:09.891
Like they've changed some

00:21:09.951 --> 00:21:10.912
things on their website,

00:21:10.951 --> 00:21:12.993
which now reflects that the

00:21:13.034 --> 00:21:15.115
way I do my tax is actually legal.

00:21:15.955 --> 00:21:16.817
Thank you, ATO.

00:21:17.637 --> 00:21:19.700
Did they call you out specifically?

00:21:21.141 --> 00:21:21.280
Yes.

00:21:21.300 --> 00:21:21.381
No.

00:21:24.173 --> 00:21:25.433
It says this fucking guy.

00:21:25.453 --> 00:21:28.154
This fucking guy's made it so confusing.

00:21:28.174 --> 00:21:29.496
We have to follow his method

00:21:29.536 --> 00:21:30.376
because we don't know what

00:21:30.416 --> 00:21:31.376
the fuck's going on.

00:21:31.436 --> 00:21:32.458
There's a slash

00:21:32.538 --> 00:21:34.019
kingnows.html page up there.

00:21:35.098 --> 00:21:36.720
Yeah, exactly.

00:21:37.181 --> 00:21:39.261
Tax slash business slash kingnows.

00:21:39.842 --> 00:21:40.982
Slash this fucking guy.

00:21:44.394 --> 00:21:46.455
So are you saying that the

00:21:46.536 --> 00:21:49.136
way that you perceived the

00:21:49.217 --> 00:21:50.738
tax rule in Australia

00:21:50.778 --> 00:21:52.438
related to these assets and

00:21:52.499 --> 00:21:53.818
that you interviewed and

00:21:53.898 --> 00:21:55.160
fired thousands of

00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.240
Australian tax officers, accountants,

00:21:59.781 --> 00:22:00.662
until you found one that

00:22:00.862 --> 00:22:01.903
met your viewpoint of it,

00:22:02.303 --> 00:22:03.542
you were ultimately proven

00:22:03.623 --> 00:22:05.523
correct because the

00:22:05.943 --> 00:22:07.525
official website for

00:22:07.585 --> 00:22:09.026
Australian taxes outlined

00:22:09.105 --> 00:22:09.905
exactly what you believe.

00:22:11.532 --> 00:22:13.694
Yeah, but I talked to a tax barrister,

00:22:14.174 --> 00:22:16.336
which is a tax lawyer in

00:22:16.395 --> 00:22:17.477
the big smoke in Sydney.

00:22:17.497 --> 00:22:18.538
I went and had a big shetty

00:22:18.557 --> 00:22:20.960
and talked to the tax

00:22:21.019 --> 00:22:22.039
barrister and he's like...

00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:23.221
Pull up on a horse and shit.

00:22:23.421 --> 00:22:23.842
Like, hey.

00:22:24.281 --> 00:22:25.883
He's like, yeah, it seems legit.

00:22:27.023 --> 00:22:27.423
Yeah.

00:22:28.144 --> 00:22:29.184
Do that.

00:22:29.546 --> 00:22:30.006
Do that?

00:22:30.185 --> 00:22:32.327
I don't think you would get

00:22:32.367 --> 00:22:33.367
in trouble if you were

00:22:33.448 --> 00:22:36.150
trying to be in the spirit

00:22:36.210 --> 00:22:37.691
of paying the goddamn tax.

00:22:37.730 --> 00:22:38.231
I don't think that...

00:22:39.792 --> 00:22:40.252
I don't think the

00:22:40.313 --> 00:22:41.534
government's going to come down and go,

00:22:41.594 --> 00:22:43.294
hey, man, you don't fuck this up.

00:22:45.295 --> 00:22:47.215
But I see you've paid a shitload of tax.

00:22:47.715 --> 00:22:48.717
Right, right, right, right.

00:22:48.797 --> 00:22:50.797
Like, we might just have to go back and,

00:22:50.836 --> 00:22:51.076
you know,

00:22:51.156 --> 00:22:53.438
figure this out and give you a

00:22:53.478 --> 00:22:55.118
little finey fine of 100 grand.

00:22:55.939 --> 00:22:58.480
Yeah, no, I would agree with that.

00:22:58.539 --> 00:22:59.800
Unless you're being extremely malicious,

00:22:59.961 --> 00:23:01.862
usually they understand

00:23:01.882 --> 00:23:03.321
that it's confusing and

00:23:03.342 --> 00:23:04.643
there's a rule associated to that.

00:23:04.682 --> 00:23:05.883
And a lot of it is usually

00:23:05.903 --> 00:23:06.804
based on interpretation and

00:23:06.824 --> 00:23:07.703
some of these types of things, right?

00:23:08.771 --> 00:23:09.311
And honestly,

00:23:09.373 --> 00:23:13.015
they probably wouldn't fine you if,

00:23:15.076 --> 00:23:16.117
you know, if you just... Oh, yeah,

00:23:16.698 --> 00:23:17.179
they would.

00:23:17.239 --> 00:23:19.380
No, well, not necessarily.

00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:20.641
Yeah, here, not necessarily.

00:23:20.681 --> 00:23:22.403
Like, if you said... Like,

00:23:22.442 --> 00:23:23.963
if you proved that you were, like,

00:23:24.023 --> 00:23:25.884
trying to be legit and pay tax,

00:23:26.385 --> 00:23:28.707
and you've paid tax, just maybe,

00:23:29.067 --> 00:23:29.288
you know...

00:23:30.318 --> 00:23:31.740
use the method that they

00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:33.080
they don't think is right

00:23:33.641 --> 00:23:34.642
then you would like have a

00:23:34.662 --> 00:23:35.701
meeting you'd have several

00:23:35.721 --> 00:23:36.603
meetings with them you'd

00:23:36.843 --> 00:23:38.304
talk it out you'd hug it

00:23:38.423 --> 00:23:40.644
out and then um yeah I

00:23:40.664 --> 00:23:41.365
don't think they'll find

00:23:41.385 --> 00:23:42.306
you though they'll just go

00:23:42.346 --> 00:23:43.366
well you're gonna have to

00:23:43.406 --> 00:23:46.108
do some work here um you

00:23:46.128 --> 00:23:47.548
had a long-term consistent

00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:49.069
accounting methodology that

00:23:49.109 --> 00:23:51.432
would help you yeah like

00:23:51.451 --> 00:23:52.031
we've been doing it for

00:23:52.051 --> 00:23:53.853
years now and but if I went

00:23:53.913 --> 00:23:57.055
back uh you know in my head

00:23:57.895 --> 00:23:59.497
I'm doing the calculations

00:24:00.506 --> 00:24:01.566
because I'm Rain Man.

00:24:02.946 --> 00:24:05.307
And if we went back now and

00:24:05.488 --> 00:24:08.990
redid it in the capital gains method,

00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:14.352
we would be very in front.

00:24:15.633 --> 00:24:16.712
The tax man's gotten a lot

00:24:16.732 --> 00:24:17.993
more money up front because

00:24:18.013 --> 00:24:18.713
of the way we do it.

00:24:19.253 --> 00:24:20.575
Yeah, we did the same thing.

00:24:20.615 --> 00:24:22.055
Cash basis versus accrual.

00:24:23.115 --> 00:24:23.496
Exactly.

00:24:23.516 --> 00:24:24.957
If we went back and did a

00:24:24.997 --> 00:24:26.096
capital gains basis,

00:24:28.097 --> 00:24:29.318
they would probably owe me

00:24:29.358 --> 00:24:29.939
a fair bit of money.

00:24:30.748 --> 00:24:30.928
Sure.

00:24:31.969 --> 00:24:32.148
Yeah.

00:24:32.929 --> 00:24:34.109
But it's not, you know,

00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:35.030
I would have spent that

00:24:35.070 --> 00:24:36.432
money in admin anyway.

00:24:36.451 --> 00:24:39.133
Wait, wait.

00:24:39.173 --> 00:24:41.214
So you, did you, when you said,

00:24:41.355 --> 00:24:43.256
did you unstake your Juno

00:24:43.276 --> 00:24:44.757
at all time low or did you sell it?

00:24:47.959 --> 00:24:50.180
I'm divested in Juno.

00:24:50.621 --> 00:24:52.461
I have no faith in the project anymore.

00:24:52.481 --> 00:24:55.463
Oh, so,

00:24:56.223 --> 00:24:59.546
so you realized a very substantial loss.

00:25:00.871 --> 00:25:01.730
Capital gains loss.

00:25:02.872 --> 00:25:04.333
If I was doing tax on a

00:25:04.373 --> 00:25:05.834
capital gains basis, I would.

00:25:05.874 --> 00:25:06.134
Yeah.

00:25:08.795 --> 00:25:08.954
Yeah.

00:25:09.575 --> 00:25:10.195
I'm caught up.

00:25:11.155 --> 00:25:11.635
There we go.

00:25:14.178 --> 00:25:14.538
I am.

00:25:14.557 --> 00:25:16.979
So, so, or we are as a company.

00:25:17.058 --> 00:25:17.859
So maybe,

00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:20.961
maybe we should also find your

00:25:21.020 --> 00:25:22.221
lack of faith disturbing.

00:25:22.321 --> 00:25:25.903
I mean, encouraging, encouraging.

00:25:26.044 --> 00:25:26.243
Yeah.

00:25:26.604 --> 00:25:30.266
I find your lack of faith encouraging.

00:25:31.583 --> 00:25:36.366
The way we do tax is that if

00:25:36.467 --> 00:25:37.268
I still held them,

00:25:37.688 --> 00:25:39.390
I would be realizing the loss anyway,

00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:41.511
because the net value would

00:25:41.531 --> 00:25:43.093
have gone down over the financial year.

00:25:43.113 --> 00:25:44.954
I can put that against other

00:25:44.974 --> 00:25:47.416
gains in holdings.

00:25:47.737 --> 00:25:48.397
So it's just a,

00:25:48.718 --> 00:25:49.578
you basically lump the

00:25:49.598 --> 00:25:50.720
whole shit together and say

00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:52.020
that all the holdings are

00:25:52.060 --> 00:25:53.122
worth this much this year,

00:25:53.622 --> 00:25:54.482
all the holdings are worth

00:25:54.542 --> 00:25:55.844
that much next year.

00:25:56.284 --> 00:25:57.164
We'll put the difference

00:25:57.224 --> 00:25:58.046
against the balance sheet.

00:26:00.138 --> 00:26:01.019
Like any other asset.

00:26:01.299 --> 00:26:04.422
Because I've noticed that company cars,

00:26:05.423 --> 00:26:06.502
bricks and mortar,

00:26:07.844 --> 00:26:08.663
all those sorts of things,

00:26:08.704 --> 00:26:10.846
they just wildly oscillate in price,

00:26:10.885 --> 00:26:11.185
don't they?

00:26:11.205 --> 00:26:13.467
They just lose 95% of their value.

00:26:13.667 --> 00:26:16.769
Yeah, but from a business perspective,

00:26:16.788 --> 00:26:18.150
that doesn't affect your balance sheet.

00:26:18.349 --> 00:26:19.971
You have depreciation on vehicles.

00:26:20.030 --> 00:26:22.212
It's set and mandated by the

00:26:22.272 --> 00:26:23.333
government about how much

00:26:23.373 --> 00:26:24.294
you can depreciate them.

00:26:24.874 --> 00:26:25.595
I was just making the

00:26:25.615 --> 00:26:27.135
standard joke about shit coins there,

00:26:27.276 --> 00:26:27.935
but thank you for

00:26:27.976 --> 00:26:29.217
additional tax information.

00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:30.880
Well,

00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:31.881
it sounded like you were

00:26:32.181 --> 00:26:33.622
misinformationing the audience,

00:26:33.701 --> 00:26:35.843
so I just wanted to clarify that.

00:26:36.202 --> 00:26:37.222
I think the audience by this

00:26:37.282 --> 00:26:39.163
point knows that nothing I

00:26:39.424 --> 00:26:40.884
say is actual tax advice

00:26:40.904 --> 00:26:42.145
and that you consult a professional.

00:26:43.507 --> 00:26:44.727
Anyway.

00:26:44.807 --> 00:26:46.107
There is no tax advice coming.

00:26:46.407 --> 00:26:51.230
What was that noise?

00:26:52.131 --> 00:26:54.593
I found some crypto homies

00:26:54.673 --> 00:26:55.913
in Australia finally,

00:26:55.992 --> 00:26:59.095
so in my new hometown of Brisbane.

00:26:59.773 --> 00:27:02.194
Uh, there is another operator up there.

00:27:02.215 --> 00:27:03.096
I'm going to go see him in a

00:27:03.115 --> 00:27:03.675
couple of weeks.

00:27:03.796 --> 00:27:04.916
They've invited me to their office.

00:27:05.176 --> 00:27:06.698
So, uh, they have an office.

00:27:06.798 --> 00:27:08.858
They have offices.

00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:10.380
Well, they have,

00:27:11.520 --> 00:27:12.921
they have staff in the office as well.

00:27:12.961 --> 00:27:13.682
So that's, they do.

00:27:14.301 --> 00:27:14.602
Yeah.

00:27:14.622 --> 00:27:15.143
That's a good team.

00:27:15.163 --> 00:27:18.003
We, we work with them on, uh, uh,

00:27:18.084 --> 00:27:19.664
in chain link and a couple of things.

00:27:19.684 --> 00:27:21.125
And like, they're, they're really,

00:27:22.267 --> 00:27:22.767
they're solid.

00:27:24.376 --> 00:27:25.698
Yeah, they said, you know,

00:27:25.778 --> 00:27:28.180
come over to the office for a bit.

00:27:30.041 --> 00:27:31.063
It's Australia.

00:27:31.123 --> 00:27:32.003
I like that already.

00:27:32.023 --> 00:27:35.046
It checks out.

00:27:35.066 --> 00:27:36.666
No, they said,

00:27:36.688 --> 00:27:37.468
come work from the office

00:27:37.488 --> 00:27:37.929
whenever you want.

00:27:37.949 --> 00:27:40.431
And I was like, do not extend that offer.

00:27:40.951 --> 00:27:42.511
Yeah, that's great.

00:27:42.531 --> 00:27:47.557
Because I don't have a prison office.

00:27:47.616 --> 00:27:50.019
Just show up with a case, right?

00:27:50.058 --> 00:27:51.220
That's all you got to do.

00:27:51.584 --> 00:27:52.824
I just start showing up every day.

00:27:52.844 --> 00:27:53.545
Just show up with beer.

00:27:53.625 --> 00:27:54.585
No, just show up with beer.

00:27:55.105 --> 00:27:55.825
With my lunchbox.

00:27:56.405 --> 00:28:02.167
It's noon.

00:28:02.508 --> 00:28:06.169
So we removed up there now.

00:28:06.388 --> 00:28:08.150
We're in the process of

00:28:08.430 --> 00:28:09.549
acquiring furniture.

00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:12.490
And I abandoned my very

00:28:12.570 --> 00:28:14.652
pregnant partner yesterday

00:28:14.912 --> 00:28:16.031
on the same day that we had

00:28:16.972 --> 00:28:18.073
quite a few deliveries of

00:28:18.669 --> 00:28:21.309
furniture items and the

00:28:21.369 --> 00:28:23.390
delivery man didn't unbox any of it.

00:28:24.270 --> 00:28:26.050
So yeah,

00:28:28.152 --> 00:28:29.571
I got some very upset messages

00:28:29.612 --> 00:28:30.451
yesterday that I should

00:28:30.471 --> 00:28:32.313
have hung around to unbox everything.

00:28:33.192 --> 00:28:36.193
So part of that furniture is

00:28:36.233 --> 00:28:42.476
now broken from a vigorous

00:28:42.576 --> 00:28:45.436
unboxing process, maybe fueled by anger.

00:28:48.121 --> 00:28:50.122
And so now I need to make

00:28:50.182 --> 00:28:51.323
sure that I pack tools when

00:28:51.343 --> 00:28:52.403
I go back up there to

00:28:52.723 --> 00:28:53.604
repair the furniture.

00:28:53.624 --> 00:28:55.424
Nice.

00:28:55.765 --> 00:28:56.445
But yeah,

00:28:56.566 --> 00:28:58.906
that has been just a real ordeal.

00:28:58.926 --> 00:29:01.469
I don't like moving, man.

00:29:02.048 --> 00:29:05.270
I don't like to realize all

00:29:05.310 --> 00:29:07.972
the crap that I have accumulated.

00:29:08.853 --> 00:29:09.913
I used to live out of a bag

00:29:09.933 --> 00:29:10.874
until probably 10 years ago.

00:29:14.365 --> 00:29:16.146
Like the first 30 years of my life,

00:29:16.946 --> 00:29:18.007
I had basically nothing.

00:29:19.067 --> 00:29:21.667
And now like just the amount

00:29:21.728 --> 00:29:24.048
of random crap that I have

00:29:24.128 --> 00:29:25.269
that is like completely

00:29:25.328 --> 00:29:28.109
worthless is amazing.

00:29:28.369 --> 00:29:32.191
So, you know, packing boxes is like,

00:29:32.671 --> 00:29:33.790
you've got a skip bin,

00:29:33.830 --> 00:29:34.951
which is a big ass bin

00:29:35.531 --> 00:29:37.873
outside the door and some

00:29:37.932 --> 00:29:39.813
boxes and hopefully more

00:29:39.853 --> 00:29:41.173
stuff goes in the skip bin

00:29:41.212 --> 00:29:41.854
than the boxes.

00:29:42.993 --> 00:29:43.094
Um,

00:29:43.596 --> 00:29:44.936
have a question for both of

00:29:44.977 --> 00:29:46.618
you guys what is your

00:29:46.979 --> 00:29:52.763
policy on cables retention

00:29:53.403 --> 00:29:54.265
like what's your retention

00:29:54.305 --> 00:29:56.586
policy on cables like you

00:29:56.626 --> 00:29:58.949
know how many of those uh

00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:01.691
you know usb micro b cables

00:30:01.711 --> 00:30:03.353
are you willing to stash at

00:30:03.393 --> 00:30:05.294
this point in time I have a

00:30:05.394 --> 00:30:06.935
bin of scuzzy cables

00:30:08.432 --> 00:30:09.153
Oh, my God.

00:30:09.413 --> 00:30:11.915
So you would still be

00:30:11.955 --> 00:30:14.336
holding on to all of the VGA?

00:30:14.616 --> 00:30:15.758
I'm looking in this thing over here.

00:30:15.798 --> 00:30:17.640
I'm seeing VGA cables.

00:30:18.500 --> 00:30:20.781
I have fucking everything since,

00:30:21.382 --> 00:30:23.824
I don't know, 30 years of shit.

00:30:24.324 --> 00:30:26.125
Usurper doesn't just have a dad drawer.

00:30:26.185 --> 00:30:28.027
He has a whole garage out in

00:30:28.047 --> 00:30:29.208
the back of the house.

00:30:29.307 --> 00:30:30.067
We talked about that.

00:30:31.108 --> 00:30:31.888
we talked about that stupid

00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:32.910
meme with like the guy and

00:30:32.930 --> 00:30:33.851
his son and like,

00:30:33.911 --> 00:30:34.671
they need like a two by

00:30:34.711 --> 00:30:36.811
four with a two by dad goes, Oh,

00:30:36.991 --> 00:30:37.752
and he runs down to this

00:30:37.772 --> 00:30:38.393
thing and he has one.

00:30:38.413 --> 00:30:39.693
He's been holding on forever.

00:30:39.713 --> 00:30:41.055
And he has that perfect fucking use.

00:30:41.755 --> 00:30:42.915
I, every once in a while I have,

00:30:43.096 --> 00:30:44.237
I have whipped out a cable

00:30:44.836 --> 00:30:45.457
that has been like,

00:30:45.517 --> 00:30:46.538
how the fuck do you have this?

00:30:46.557 --> 00:30:47.458
Like I had, we needed like a,

00:30:47.478 --> 00:30:51.201
I needed a DVI to VGA cable,

00:30:51.300 --> 00:30:52.280
but it had the pinouts

00:30:52.300 --> 00:30:52.882
where you could actually

00:30:53.122 --> 00:30:54.301
swap because there's a, there was a,

00:30:54.643 --> 00:30:55.262
some sort of thing where

00:30:55.282 --> 00:30:55.962
you could actually change

00:30:56.002 --> 00:30:58.285
what DVI pins and there's DVI and DVID.

00:30:58.744 --> 00:30:59.925
So you can go back between the four.

00:30:59.986 --> 00:31:00.326
I had one.

00:31:02.268 --> 00:31:07.009
so excited as you got to the

00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:08.390
climax of that of that

00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:10.391
story there was one on ebay

00:31:10.451 --> 00:31:11.750
for like 45 I'm like I got

00:31:11.810 --> 00:31:13.551
one you can just add it

00:31:13.932 --> 00:31:14.731
it's fucking sitting around

00:31:15.472 --> 00:31:16.292
but I'm not saying this is

00:31:16.333 --> 00:31:17.232
this is a life to live this

00:31:17.252 --> 00:31:17.913
is not the life to live

00:31:19.433 --> 00:31:20.233
just fucking throw it all

00:31:20.253 --> 00:31:22.194
away dude literally back to

00:31:22.234 --> 00:31:24.055
moving I would we would

00:31:24.095 --> 00:31:25.195
have to burn this house to the ground

00:31:26.035 --> 00:31:29.076
Because I couldn't even imagine.

00:31:29.977 --> 00:31:31.037
I could not even imagine

00:31:31.076 --> 00:31:31.678
trying to go through this

00:31:31.738 --> 00:31:32.897
shit and trying to decide

00:31:32.938 --> 00:31:33.499
or whatever else.

00:31:33.538 --> 00:31:35.239
It would just be to shovel

00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:36.039
it all into a dumpster

00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:38.280
outside and then that's it.

00:31:38.701 --> 00:31:39.080
Start over.

00:31:40.842 --> 00:31:41.521
Just bulldoze it?

00:31:42.262 --> 00:31:43.002
Bulldoze the whole thing.

00:31:43.742 --> 00:31:46.144
There's a 40-foot dumpster

00:31:46.164 --> 00:31:47.265
out front just to put it all in there.

00:31:48.164 --> 00:31:50.467
The shit that you own ends up owning you.

00:31:50.487 --> 00:31:52.267
Is that a Fight Club reference?

00:31:53.488 --> 00:31:54.407
That's Dalai Lama.

00:31:55.449 --> 00:31:55.568
Mm-hmm.

00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:57.101
Is it?

00:31:57.181 --> 00:31:57.422
Yeah.

00:31:57.442 --> 00:31:58.905
But you know, it's also nice.

00:31:58.925 --> 00:31:59.867
I got you for a second.

00:32:03.207 --> 00:32:05.188
um although I think I think

00:32:05.268 --> 00:32:07.348
it actually is it is if you

00:32:07.368 --> 00:32:08.569
go back far enough I think

00:32:08.630 --> 00:32:10.530
it is either buddhism or it

00:32:10.570 --> 00:32:13.673
might be jesus I don't

00:32:13.692 --> 00:32:14.752
think jesus said that shit

00:32:14.772 --> 00:32:16.534
you all don't end up like

00:32:16.554 --> 00:32:17.394
without the swearing

00:32:17.494 --> 00:32:18.494
there's like there's

00:32:18.575 --> 00:32:20.236
there's a thing apparently

00:32:20.276 --> 00:32:21.737
in one of the gospels about

00:32:21.977 --> 00:32:23.417
about material possessions

00:32:23.538 --> 00:32:24.858
and it's not quite that

00:32:24.919 --> 00:32:27.000
phrasing but it's like essentially the

00:32:29.509 --> 00:32:30.069
whatever, man.

00:32:31.570 --> 00:32:32.471
I don't know.

00:32:32.490 --> 00:32:33.951
I'm not a Bible guy,

00:32:33.971 --> 00:32:35.692
but I gather this came up

00:32:35.731 --> 00:32:36.951
in conversation a while ago.

00:32:36.971 --> 00:32:38.112
Somebody went, oh yeah,

00:32:38.231 --> 00:32:40.432
that's like a thing.

00:32:40.492 --> 00:32:41.593
There's like a one-liner in

00:32:41.633 --> 00:32:42.833
the Bible that's basically

00:32:42.873 --> 00:32:43.854
words to that effect.

00:32:44.354 --> 00:32:45.253
And I was like, oh, okay.

00:32:45.294 --> 00:32:47.094
So Jesus is basically Tyler Durden.

00:32:47.134 --> 00:32:47.534
Gotcha.

00:32:47.835 --> 00:32:48.335
They're like, Alex,

00:32:48.355 --> 00:32:49.194
that's not the takeaway.

00:32:50.189 --> 00:32:51.730
not a takeaway dude what

00:32:51.750 --> 00:32:52.490
would jesus do with this

00:32:52.549 --> 00:32:55.830
bucket of vga cables yeah I

00:32:55.871 --> 00:32:57.071
kind of I tell you what

00:32:57.092 --> 00:32:57.731
fight club is a more

00:32:57.751 --> 00:32:59.653
interesting uh story when

00:32:59.692 --> 00:33:02.294
you go like is this how it

00:33:02.314 --> 00:33:02.953
went down with the

00:33:03.013 --> 00:33:04.954
disciples like was meatloaf

00:33:05.075 --> 00:33:10.576
peter oh me left outed well

00:33:10.596 --> 00:33:12.298
I guess you know spoiler alert like

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:15.381
pans out a bit differently

00:33:15.401 --> 00:33:16.520
doesn't it for for peter

00:33:16.580 --> 00:33:19.103
and for me like anyway no

00:33:19.182 --> 00:33:22.265
don't do this this is what

00:33:22.305 --> 00:33:23.465
it looks like when you have

00:33:23.526 --> 00:33:24.865
shit that you I didn't want

00:33:24.885 --> 00:33:25.926
to show you I have that

00:33:25.987 --> 00:33:27.768
then I have that I'm

00:33:27.788 --> 00:33:29.989
looking at I i can see an

00:33:30.048 --> 00:33:31.650
entire fucking bucket full

00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:34.471
of random zigbee shit dude

00:33:34.672 --> 00:33:35.792
I have I i have four

00:33:35.853 --> 00:33:37.013
buckets of just power bricks

00:33:40.474 --> 00:33:42.454
Every fucking combination of

00:33:42.474 --> 00:33:43.695
voltage and amperage.

00:33:44.096 --> 00:33:44.756
Whatever you want.

00:33:44.776 --> 00:33:46.896
You need like a 12 volt 0.2 amp?

00:33:46.977 --> 00:33:47.696
I'm sure I have one.

00:33:47.997 --> 00:33:48.676
Forget it.

00:33:48.696 --> 00:33:52.317
Don't even need to ask.

00:33:52.397 --> 00:33:54.778
It's definitely there.

00:33:55.038 --> 00:33:55.919
Round barrel connector?

00:33:56.019 --> 00:33:56.619
Let me help you out.

00:33:57.700 --> 00:33:59.119
Do you know what is cool?

00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:00.141
Do you guys have one of

00:34:00.181 --> 00:34:01.661
these for working away?

00:34:01.721 --> 00:34:02.721
You know one of those big

00:34:02.862 --> 00:34:04.301
laptop power bricks that

00:34:04.321 --> 00:34:05.923
can actually just charge a laptop?

00:34:06.123 --> 00:34:07.202
They are so fucking cool.

00:34:08.492 --> 00:34:08.833
What do you mean?

00:34:09.052 --> 00:34:09.833
Like a regular laptop?

00:34:09.853 --> 00:34:12.175
Well, so, you know, like you can charge,

00:34:12.195 --> 00:34:12.556
you can't,

00:34:12.635 --> 00:34:14.077
you can charge a phone off of

00:34:14.137 --> 00:34:15.177
like a little power.

00:34:15.297 --> 00:34:15.657
Oh yeah.

00:34:15.838 --> 00:34:16.057
Yeah.

00:34:16.257 --> 00:34:16.438
Yeah.

00:34:16.717 --> 00:34:17.438
But a laptop,

00:34:17.478 --> 00:34:19.260
like it's way too much current draw.

00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:21.021
Like it needs a natural,

00:34:21.061 --> 00:34:25.784
like fucking is a battery like that.

00:34:26.425 --> 00:34:28.206
You can use a 65 watt Mac OS

00:34:28.246 --> 00:34:29.646
brick with an iPhone,

00:34:29.786 --> 00:34:30.967
charge it up at max.

00:34:31.487 --> 00:34:32.789
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:33.829
I mean, I mean, as in,

00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:36.650
as in you're in a field and

00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:37.692
you want to run a MacBook pro.

00:34:38.532 --> 00:34:41.713
yeah this is my this is my

00:34:41.813 --> 00:34:42.974
out of office charger for

00:34:42.994 --> 00:34:44.094
my macbook just plug it

00:34:44.114 --> 00:34:46.735
into this bitch yeah yeah

00:34:46.755 --> 00:34:48.554
how long this is the

00:34:48.574 --> 00:34:50.056
battery this will charge my

00:34:50.255 --> 00:34:52.376
um macbook uh at least once

00:34:52.596 --> 00:34:54.617
maybe twice I've got one

00:34:54.637 --> 00:34:56.396
that's about maybe 1.5

00:34:56.396 --> 00:34:58.077
times that size and it will

00:34:58.097 --> 00:34:59.538
do it it supposedly will do

00:34:59.557 --> 00:35:01.137
it twice I've never I mean

00:35:01.197 --> 00:35:02.358
actually been that stuck

00:35:03.438 --> 00:35:05.619
why is your laptop so fucking hungry

00:35:07.092 --> 00:35:08.494
because it's like all that

00:35:08.534 --> 00:35:10.856
coding gajillion cores yeah

00:35:11.335 --> 00:35:15.099
and this is my baby that's

00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:16.599
my wall plug one it's just

00:35:16.659 --> 00:35:18.380
like a little this is 100

00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:20.402
watt it does you want no

00:35:20.422 --> 00:35:22.764
you you fucking dingo of

00:35:22.844 --> 00:35:23.724
course I know you could

00:35:23.784 --> 00:35:25.306
charge a laptop for a wall

00:35:25.347 --> 00:35:27.108
plug do you think I have a

00:35:27.188 --> 00:35:28.248
fucking neanderthal

00:35:29.583 --> 00:35:30.143
No,

00:35:30.244 --> 00:35:31.684
I just assumed that you were carrying

00:35:31.744 --> 00:35:35.204
around some fucking bucket

00:35:35.264 --> 00:35:39.126
of cables for your fucking thing.

00:35:39.346 --> 00:35:39.445
No,

00:35:40.346 --> 00:35:41.925
you carry around a battery brick in

00:35:41.945 --> 00:35:44.027
case you're stuck on a

00:35:44.106 --> 00:35:45.106
train or something and

00:35:45.126 --> 00:35:46.146
there's no wall plug

00:35:46.206 --> 00:35:47.186
anywhere and you just need

00:35:47.206 --> 00:35:50.248
to juice the laptop from front to back,

00:35:50.327 --> 00:35:50.547
right?

00:35:51.527 --> 00:35:52.827
This thing's light as fuck as well,

00:35:52.847 --> 00:35:53.108
by the way.

00:35:53.148 --> 00:35:54.148
I take this hiking with me.

00:35:54.168 --> 00:35:56.929
That's pretty cool.

00:35:56.949 --> 00:35:57.789
It charges all the shit.

00:35:59.166 --> 00:36:00.927
The one I have is fucking heavy.

00:36:01.487 --> 00:36:02.288
So are you packing up all

00:36:02.307 --> 00:36:02.987
that shit behind you?

00:36:04.829 --> 00:36:06.469
All this shit?

00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:07.010
All that shit?

00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:07.570
Is that all going?

00:36:07.730 --> 00:36:08.949
That's Aaron's basement.

00:36:08.989 --> 00:36:11.231
It's all theirs.

00:36:11.710 --> 00:36:13.391
Is that a plant growing in a

00:36:13.431 --> 00:36:14.291
bottle of Maker's Mark?

00:36:15.432 --> 00:36:15.693
Yeah.

00:36:16.672 --> 00:36:19.614
It's a piece of bamboo I

00:36:19.653 --> 00:36:20.574
stuffed in there at some

00:36:20.594 --> 00:36:23.376
point and it just sort of grew.

00:36:23.396 --> 00:36:24.635
I got too big so I snipped

00:36:24.655 --> 00:36:25.635
some bits off it and put it

00:36:25.655 --> 00:36:26.036
in the other...

00:36:28.333 --> 00:36:30.476
a Voss bottle and a writer's tears bottle.

00:36:31.096 --> 00:36:31.235
I,

00:36:32.056 --> 00:36:34.057
I threw away a lot of empty whiskey

00:36:34.097 --> 00:36:34.818
bottles, by the way.

00:36:35.259 --> 00:36:37.840
I had a, um, a great uncle that died.

00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:39.302
And, uh,

00:36:39.722 --> 00:36:41.083
when they went and cleaned out his

00:36:41.163 --> 00:36:42.704
like house, uh,

00:36:43.409 --> 00:36:46.610
It was just filled to the brim with, like,

00:36:47.251 --> 00:36:48.090
red wine bottles,

00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:49.891
just empty red wine bottles.

00:36:51.092 --> 00:36:52.231
And, you know,

00:36:52.652 --> 00:36:54.273
given another 10 years in this place,

00:36:54.353 --> 00:36:56.632
I might have been in the same situation.

00:36:57.233 --> 00:36:58.733
But fucking whiskey bottles, man.

00:36:58.893 --> 00:37:00.313
There was a few whiskey

00:37:00.353 --> 00:37:01.094
bottles lying around.

00:37:01.755 --> 00:37:02.795
Because, you know, they're quite...

00:37:03.583 --> 00:37:04.724
They're quite pretty bottles, right?

00:37:04.744 --> 00:37:05.963
You look at them and go, oh,

00:37:05.983 --> 00:37:07.005
that's a nice label.

00:37:07.025 --> 00:37:08.164
Maybe we'll get another one.

00:37:08.885 --> 00:37:09.644
Yeah, exactly.

00:37:11.284 --> 00:37:12.284
I have to get more of those

00:37:12.344 --> 00:37:13.025
and just put them on the

00:37:13.045 --> 00:37:14.826
shelf filled with shit so I

00:37:14.865 --> 00:37:15.385
can drink them.

00:37:15.666 --> 00:37:16.425
That's right.

00:37:16.565 --> 00:37:17.445
It's pretty.

00:37:17.646 --> 00:37:18.206
Yeah,

00:37:18.487 --> 00:37:20.286
I've tried to give up drinking before.

00:37:21.947 --> 00:37:22.686
I'm an alcoholic.

00:37:22.726 --> 00:37:24.907
I think I'll just stay that way.

00:37:25.128 --> 00:37:25.947
That's not funny.

00:37:27.128 --> 00:37:28.427
No, I mean, not a legit alcoholic.

00:37:28.467 --> 00:37:29.307
I just really like it.

00:37:34.632 --> 00:37:35.692
uh my partner's like so

00:37:35.711 --> 00:37:36.512
you're gonna stop drinking

00:37:36.532 --> 00:37:37.413
while I'm pregnant I'm like

00:37:37.452 --> 00:37:40.313
yeah man that did not

00:37:40.492 --> 00:37:43.213
happen so uh you'll slow

00:37:43.233 --> 00:37:45.394
down after you know yeah I

00:37:45.414 --> 00:37:46.014
mean I don't want to be a

00:37:46.054 --> 00:37:47.315
deadbeat dad so I'll

00:37:47.335 --> 00:37:48.775
probably have I just I mean

00:37:49.034 --> 00:37:50.275
it yeah because you're just

00:37:50.376 --> 00:37:52.175
up so much don't have time

00:37:52.215 --> 00:37:53.476
you're not gonna have time

00:37:53.496 --> 00:37:55.836
yeah you're not gonna have

00:37:55.876 --> 00:37:58.358
a free hand or time for the

00:37:58.378 --> 00:37:59.657
next like yeah

00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:02.081
ever.

00:38:02.101 --> 00:38:03.041
So, you know,

00:38:03.061 --> 00:38:04.722
you may as well just not bother anymore.

00:38:06.003 --> 00:38:06.443
First year.

00:38:06.822 --> 00:38:08.864
After you get past that first birthday,

00:38:08.905 --> 00:38:11.485
it does get a lot easier

00:38:11.505 --> 00:38:12.925
after the first year, to be fair.

00:38:13.226 --> 00:38:13.726
That is true.

00:38:13.746 --> 00:38:15.907
That would be my review of

00:38:15.967 --> 00:38:17.027
fatherhood so far.

00:38:17.469 --> 00:38:17.969
Yeah.

00:38:18.088 --> 00:38:18.869
I mean, they learn to walk,

00:38:18.909 --> 00:38:19.590
they learn to talk,

00:38:19.650 --> 00:38:21.751
and all that stuff happens, right?

00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:22.951
Yeah.

00:38:23.190 --> 00:38:24.431
They also have the period

00:38:24.492 --> 00:38:25.733
I'm at at the moment where

00:38:25.793 --> 00:38:26.793
they want to walk,

00:38:26.913 --> 00:38:27.954
but they can only walk a

00:38:28.034 --> 00:38:29.914
short distance before tumbling over.

00:38:30.753 --> 00:38:32.175
So they instead come up to

00:38:32.235 --> 00:38:34.635
you and raise up their hand

00:38:35.315 --> 00:38:37.356
to walk with you, which is very cute.

00:38:37.396 --> 00:38:39.157
The first few times when

00:38:39.197 --> 00:38:40.157
your lower back is

00:38:40.217 --> 00:38:41.737
completely fucked several

00:38:41.757 --> 00:38:43.878
weeks later and they're still doing it.

00:38:43.998 --> 00:38:45.478
And they're like wanting

00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:46.860
like several hours a day of that.

00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:48.320
You're like, I'm fucked.

00:38:48.641 --> 00:38:49.641
I can't do this anymore.

00:38:50.041 --> 00:38:51.661
I literally can't, I'm going to die.

00:38:51.681 --> 00:38:53.643
I literally I'm in searing

00:38:53.722 --> 00:38:54.742
pain and they're like,

00:38:56.402 --> 00:38:57.583
you know smiling up at you

00:38:57.623 --> 00:38:59.204
and you're like I can't I

00:38:59.224 --> 00:39:00.525
couldn't burst into tears I

00:39:00.565 --> 00:39:02.405
can't do this anymore yeah

00:39:02.425 --> 00:39:04.126
but the the sad part about

00:39:04.166 --> 00:39:05.806
that is that it's at one

00:39:05.847 --> 00:39:07.487
day they never ask again

00:39:09.768 --> 00:39:12.369
forever oh forever they

00:39:12.409 --> 00:39:13.730
never ask again they're too

00:39:13.769 --> 00:39:16.731
big right so so you got to

00:39:16.771 --> 00:39:17.751
enjoy those days because

00:39:17.952 --> 00:39:19.652
unfortunately they get

00:39:19.713 --> 00:39:20.652
older they're numbered

00:39:21.262 --> 00:39:24.083
The number of days where you

00:39:24.123 --> 00:39:25.963
can pick somebody up and as

00:39:26.264 --> 00:39:27.244
much as it hurts,

00:39:27.384 --> 00:39:28.824
those days are not infinite.

00:39:28.923 --> 00:39:29.503
They stop.

00:39:30.304 --> 00:39:30.764
At some point,

00:39:30.784 --> 00:39:31.784
they're just too big or they

00:39:31.804 --> 00:39:32.364
just don't care.

00:39:32.405 --> 00:39:33.164
They're like, what are you doing, dude?

00:39:33.184 --> 00:39:33.485
Get off me.

00:39:34.525 --> 00:39:35.965
What are you doing?

00:39:36.206 --> 00:39:37.045
It's like, what?

00:39:37.206 --> 00:39:38.525
Get the fuck off me, man.

00:39:39.425 --> 00:39:40.666
At some point, they'll be, yeah,

00:39:40.686 --> 00:39:41.045
at some point,

00:39:41.085 --> 00:39:41.987
my kids will be carrying me.

00:39:42.047 --> 00:39:43.126
That's what's going to end up happening.

00:39:43.947 --> 00:39:45.806
It starts to reverse after a while.

00:39:46.746 --> 00:39:47.648
That checks out.

00:39:47.668 --> 00:39:48.467
That checks out.

00:39:48.507 --> 00:39:49.068
Yeah, exactly.

00:39:49.148 --> 00:39:49.867
Help me into this chair.

00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:52.730
Yeah.

00:39:52.750 --> 00:39:53.391
But every, I mean,

00:39:53.431 --> 00:39:54.490
that's the one thing is like,

00:39:54.871 --> 00:39:55.532
like you go through these

00:39:55.552 --> 00:39:57.353
different periods, but they all haven't,

00:39:57.432 --> 00:39:58.492
they all, they all end.

00:39:59.634 --> 00:40:00.313
They all end.

00:40:00.773 --> 00:40:01.934
Nothing's forever, dude.

00:40:02.414 --> 00:40:03.416
Nothing's fucking forever.

00:40:03.815 --> 00:40:05.295
You know, one, you know what they say?

00:40:05.356 --> 00:40:06.056
Like, uh,

00:40:08.177 --> 00:40:10.458
at some point you look back the

00:40:10.478 --> 00:40:11.820
footsteps on the beach in

00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:13.601
the sand and there was only

00:40:13.681 --> 00:40:14.641
one set of footprints.

00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.021
And that's cause Jesus got

00:40:17.061 --> 00:40:18.342
fucking tired of your bullshit.

00:40:18.362 --> 00:40:18.483
Yeah.

00:40:19.255 --> 00:40:19.916
It's left you alone.

00:40:22.338 --> 00:40:24.862
So anyway, Serpa, to answer your question,

00:40:26.068 --> 00:40:27.250
The TV's going, yes.

00:40:27.889 --> 00:40:29.311
The rack.

00:40:30.391 --> 00:40:32.331
Is that a server rack?

00:40:32.793 --> 00:40:34.172
Is that a half rack?

00:40:34.492 --> 00:40:36.114
That's a half shorty.

00:40:36.134 --> 00:40:38.235
I hate saying one of those.

00:40:39.155 --> 00:40:39.815
It's not coming.

00:40:39.876 --> 00:40:41.376
It's going to the wheelie bin.

00:40:41.956 --> 00:40:42.978
The couch will be coming.

00:40:43.378 --> 00:40:45.179
It's going in the... It'll

00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:46.340
be probably not in the office.

00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:47.820
It'll be in this little TV nook.

00:40:48.501 --> 00:40:51.461
And the fridge is not going.

00:40:52.643 --> 00:40:54.623
And the freezer is not going anywhere.

00:40:55.476 --> 00:40:56.817
and then I'll put a match to

00:40:56.836 --> 00:40:57.958
this place as I walk out of it.

00:40:59.898 --> 00:41:00.780
Sick.

00:41:01.380 --> 00:41:03.382
So when the ATO comes for that audit,

00:41:03.483 --> 00:41:04.262
they can file a match.

00:41:07.976 --> 00:41:09.456
I bought a half rack like that, uh,

00:41:09.518 --> 00:41:10.739
that I had in this house for,

00:41:10.759 --> 00:41:12.460
it was for 10 years or

00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:12.880
something like that.

00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:13.481
I had wheels on it.

00:41:13.521 --> 00:41:14.121
It was totally nice.

00:41:14.702 --> 00:41:15.762
And I stuck in the spot that

00:41:15.782 --> 00:41:16.463
I actually had to take it

00:41:16.483 --> 00:41:17.764
apart slightly to get it in there.

00:41:18.465 --> 00:41:19.726
Uh, cause like there's a small,

00:41:19.766 --> 00:41:21.407
like there's a utility kind

00:41:21.447 --> 00:41:22.188
of closet where there's a

00:41:22.228 --> 00:41:23.148
small door and all that kind of stuff.

00:41:23.670 --> 00:41:24.329
And I wanted to get rid of

00:41:24.349 --> 00:41:24.931
that thing because it was

00:41:24.951 --> 00:41:25.771
such a pain in the ass,

00:41:25.871 --> 00:41:27.552
like just to wheel it around.

00:41:27.592 --> 00:41:28.052
It was heavy.

00:41:28.072 --> 00:41:28.713
And it was only,

00:41:28.753 --> 00:41:29.474
I was getting rid of everything.

00:41:29.494 --> 00:41:30.414
Cause everything's going to the cloud.

00:41:30.956 --> 00:41:31.757
I ended up just taking a

00:41:31.797 --> 00:41:32.757
fucking saws all to it and

00:41:32.797 --> 00:41:33.338
cutting it in half.

00:41:33.717 --> 00:41:34.478
Get out of there.

00:41:35.150 --> 00:41:36.150
I can see you doing the same thing.

00:41:37.052 --> 00:41:39.092
Right down the middle.

00:41:39.112 --> 00:41:41.853
It is really useless.

00:41:41.913 --> 00:41:43.094
It's good for network equipment,

00:41:43.114 --> 00:41:43.833
but that's about it.

00:41:44.634 --> 00:41:45.755
You can't put a server in there.

00:41:45.775 --> 00:41:47.474
It just sticks four inches out the back.

00:41:48.235 --> 00:41:48.596
Oh, really?

00:41:48.635 --> 00:41:50.615
This is a full-depth cabinet.

00:41:51.115 --> 00:41:51.896
Yeah, no,

00:41:51.956 --> 00:41:55.077
this one... I got this one before

00:41:55.117 --> 00:41:56.557
I really knew about how big

00:41:57.038 --> 00:41:58.739
the servers were.

00:41:59.458 --> 00:42:01.239
I think it's maybe 600 deep,

00:42:01.300 --> 00:42:02.440
which is no good.

00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:03.800
All my servers are like a meter.

00:42:03.820 --> 00:42:04.380
Yeah.

00:42:06.041 --> 00:42:07.101
It's no good.

00:42:07.262 --> 00:42:09.643
600 is probably for audio equipment then.

00:42:10.704 --> 00:42:12.043
It could be for audio equipment then.

00:42:13.063 --> 00:42:16.326
It's probably like network

00:42:16.786 --> 00:42:19.206
switches and audio stuff.

00:42:19.226 --> 00:42:21.947
Typically, audio ends at 400, I think,

00:42:22.628 --> 00:42:23.248
like max.

00:42:24.349 --> 00:42:25.429
Yeah,

00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:27.510
it's got a battery backup in the

00:42:27.550 --> 00:42:28.630
bottom of it and that type of stuff.

00:42:28.911 --> 00:42:29.650
I don't know if I'll run the

00:42:29.690 --> 00:42:30.831
battery backup in the new house.

00:42:30.891 --> 00:42:32.492
I don't think I will.

00:42:34.465 --> 00:42:36.085
But my internet keeps – last

00:42:36.126 --> 00:42:36.925
week I was talking about

00:42:37.085 --> 00:42:38.067
how good the internet was

00:42:38.367 --> 00:42:39.327
in the new place and now it

00:42:39.847 --> 00:42:41.708
fucking drops out like four times a day.

00:42:41.788 --> 00:42:44.829
So I need to call up my

00:42:44.849 --> 00:42:45.710
provider and tell them to

00:42:45.769 --> 00:42:46.530
pick up their socks.

00:42:47.431 --> 00:42:47.751
Yeah,

00:42:47.771 --> 00:42:50.791
I'm not sure if it's the national

00:42:50.851 --> 00:42:53.833
network that's fucked or if it's the ISP.

00:42:54.213 --> 00:42:55.554
The way the internet works

00:42:55.594 --> 00:42:56.313
in Australia is the

00:42:56.353 --> 00:42:57.335
government owns like the

00:42:57.355 --> 00:43:00.255
whole network and maintains it.

00:43:00.757 --> 00:43:02.918
And then providers can, you know,

00:43:03.438 --> 00:43:06.742
they just can't be for each customer.

00:43:09.063 --> 00:43:09.844
Yeah, I mean,

00:43:10.525 --> 00:43:11.646
you can have other providers.

00:43:11.666 --> 00:43:12.927
You can go get Elon's

00:43:12.967 --> 00:43:13.666
bullshit on your roof.

00:43:14.047 --> 00:43:14.387
Actually,

00:43:14.407 --> 00:43:16.750
I just saw yesterday that

00:43:16.829 --> 00:43:18.451
Starlink is now in, like,

00:43:19.391 --> 00:43:20.273
electrical stores.

00:43:20.452 --> 00:43:21.434
You can buy it off the shelf.

00:43:21.713 --> 00:43:23.054
They got that new little gizmo.

00:43:23.414 --> 00:43:24.795
Yeah, because, you know,

00:43:25.257 --> 00:43:26.157
Starlink used to come in a

00:43:26.197 --> 00:43:27.759
box this fucking big, right?

00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:29.360
Enormous.

00:43:30.092 --> 00:43:30.972
You're so big you had to

00:43:30.992 --> 00:43:32.494
have a ute to carry it around.

00:43:33.954 --> 00:43:36.755
No, you did not have to have a ute.

00:43:36.775 --> 00:43:37.757
But now they're like little.

00:43:38.077 --> 00:43:39.637
You had it in your ute though, right?

00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:42.300
I did have it in my ute, yeah.

00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:43.221
Yeah, thank you.

00:43:45.101 --> 00:43:46.222
But it wasn't a requirement.

00:43:49.123 --> 00:43:50.045
But anyway,

00:43:50.065 --> 00:43:51.786
now they're quite small and

00:43:51.826 --> 00:43:53.067
portable by the looks of things.

00:43:53.186 --> 00:43:56.108
So I don't know.

00:43:56.688 --> 00:43:57.989
I don't need one, but I might buy one.

00:43:59.827 --> 00:44:01.068
when you get called out in a stereotype,

00:44:01.108 --> 00:44:01.809
and it's totally true.

00:44:03.951 --> 00:44:05.152
It didn't have to be in my ute.

00:44:06.052 --> 00:44:08.894
It didn't have to be in my ute.

00:44:08.974 --> 00:44:12.077
It didn't need to be, man.

00:44:12.157 --> 00:44:13.018
Of course.

00:44:13.659 --> 00:44:14.519
I have a crypto question.

00:44:14.539 --> 00:44:15.219
Do you want to talk about that?

00:44:16.041 --> 00:44:16.561
Game of Holmes?

00:44:16.621 --> 00:44:16.840
Game of...

00:44:20.074 --> 00:44:23.876
something oh so the I i

00:44:23.916 --> 00:44:24.938
found out something today

00:44:24.978 --> 00:44:26.378
which was that you know

00:44:26.398 --> 00:44:27.920
I've been like uh going

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.661
through ethics stuff for a

00:44:30.981 --> 00:44:32.342
really minor thing on this

00:44:32.443 --> 00:44:33.384
paper that I nearly

00:44:33.443 --> 00:44:35.666
finished uh there was

00:44:35.706 --> 00:44:36.445
something that I was really

00:44:36.525 --> 00:44:37.766
pleased with myself about

00:44:37.847 --> 00:44:38.668
in the paper because I

00:44:38.847 --> 00:44:40.168
haven't seen it anybody

00:44:40.228 --> 00:44:41.809
express it that way yet I

00:44:42.331 --> 00:44:43.090
was talking to somebody

00:44:43.130 --> 00:44:43.952
earlier today and they were

00:44:43.972 --> 00:44:44.851
like oh yeah I think the

00:44:45.132 --> 00:44:46.454
the law society is about to

00:44:46.494 --> 00:44:47.855
put out something that

00:44:47.934 --> 00:44:49.056
clarifies all of that

00:44:49.871 --> 00:44:51.012
And I was like, cool,

00:44:51.172 --> 00:44:52.293
yet another thing I'm late

00:44:52.313 --> 00:44:53.313
to the party on now,

00:44:53.434 --> 00:44:54.353
thanks to just not

00:44:55.074 --> 00:44:56.355
finishing this fucking paper.

00:44:56.635 --> 00:44:57.476
Anyways, that's my life.

00:45:00.617 --> 00:45:03.599
Will my paper get out before

00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:05.599
the cosmos ecosystem finally dies?

00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:07.840
My paper about the cosmos ecosystem.

00:45:08.201 --> 00:45:09.041
What will come first?

00:45:09.740 --> 00:45:10.922
The publication of the paper

00:45:11.061 --> 00:45:12.702
or the complete death of the ecosystem?

00:45:13.782 --> 00:45:14.603
Probably my paper, to be honest.

00:45:18.925 --> 00:45:19.907
Was there maybe another

00:45:20.706 --> 00:45:21.507
topic you could have picked?

00:45:21.527 --> 00:45:24.250
Yeah.

00:45:24.929 --> 00:45:26.110
Certainly not money-making.

00:45:26.150 --> 00:45:26.771
That's not something I...

00:45:28.693 --> 00:45:30.293
That would be in a different ecosystem,

00:45:30.313 --> 00:45:30.853
potentially.

00:45:30.873 --> 00:45:30.914
So...

00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:35.920
So here's my- No, you had a crypto?

00:45:35.981 --> 00:45:36.181
No, I do.

00:45:36.201 --> 00:45:37.561
I have a crypto question.

00:45:37.581 --> 00:45:39.182
You have a crypto question?

00:45:39.262 --> 00:45:39.583
What is it?

00:45:39.664 --> 00:45:40.103
I do.

00:45:40.643 --> 00:45:43.766
So we're working with a chain.

00:45:43.867 --> 00:45:45.228
It's Say that we're working with.

00:45:45.248 --> 00:45:46.429
We're working with a chain.

00:45:46.449 --> 00:45:47.068
It's Say.

00:45:47.148 --> 00:45:47.568
It's Say.

00:45:47.668 --> 00:45:48.070
It doesn't matter.

00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:49.030
I was thinking it mattered,

00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:49.751
but it doesn't matter.

00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:52.193
So on the EVM side,

00:45:52.253 --> 00:45:53.914
so they have both the

00:45:53.934 --> 00:45:55.355
traditional tendermint

00:45:55.414 --> 00:45:56.456
piece and they have some EVM,

00:45:56.615 --> 00:45:57.076
whatever it is,

00:45:57.396 --> 00:45:58.396
WASM thing or whatever the hell they do.

00:45:59.858 --> 00:46:02.559
Right now, I think they have a gas price.

00:46:03.139 --> 00:46:04.260
So the gas price for a

00:46:04.460 --> 00:46:06.561
traditional native tenement,

00:46:07.902 --> 00:46:08.862
like a min gas price for

00:46:08.882 --> 00:46:09.543
the tenement side.

00:46:10.043 --> 00:46:11.405
And if you run an EVM transaction,

00:46:11.445 --> 00:46:12.525
it's like one guay or

00:46:12.565 --> 00:46:13.085
something like that.

00:46:13.125 --> 00:46:14.726
And I think, say,

00:46:14.846 --> 00:46:16.266
might even refund that on

00:46:16.286 --> 00:46:17.648
the EVM side right now.

00:46:18.467 --> 00:46:20.068
So there's maybe no gas on the EVM side.

00:46:20.769 --> 00:46:23.190
So the Atlantic 2, which is their test net,

00:46:23.291 --> 00:46:24.532
went totally apeshit today.

00:46:24.552 --> 00:46:26.572
I don't know if you saw it at all, but

00:46:27.092 --> 00:46:28.213
but the block times went

00:46:28.253 --> 00:46:29.534
from 300 milliseconds to

00:46:29.655 --> 00:46:30.556
three and a half seconds.

00:46:32.157 --> 00:46:34.858
There was maybe a thousand

00:46:34.918 --> 00:46:36.280
transactions sitting in the mempool.

00:46:36.860 --> 00:46:38.101
And so we do some work with

00:46:38.222 --> 00:46:38.882
Particle Network.

00:46:38.922 --> 00:46:40.423
Particle is using, say, testnet,

00:46:40.443 --> 00:46:41.905
and they're dumping a ton

00:46:41.925 --> 00:46:44.927
of transactions into the testnet.

00:46:45.568 --> 00:46:47.489
And what we're seeing is that those,

00:46:47.869 --> 00:46:49.690
this is my misunderstanding of gas.

00:46:50.711 --> 00:46:52.193
So what's happening is that

00:46:52.632 --> 00:46:54.414
they're submitting it with a gas wanted,

00:46:56.161 --> 00:46:57.981
And maybe for you,

00:46:58.161 --> 00:46:59.043
I don't know how exactly

00:46:59.083 --> 00:47:00.923
how gas wanted is calculated,

00:47:01.423 --> 00:47:02.505
but I thought it was the

00:47:02.585 --> 00:47:03.844
client dictates that,

00:47:03.885 --> 00:47:04.465
or I don't even know where

00:47:04.505 --> 00:47:05.266
the hell that comes from,

00:47:05.806 --> 00:47:07.527
but their gas wanted number,

00:47:07.748 --> 00:47:09.469
since they're getting refunds on gas,

00:47:09.969 --> 00:47:12.070
the gas wanted number is like 10 million,

00:47:12.110 --> 00:47:13.411
which is the complete block.

00:47:14.231 --> 00:47:15.152
Cause there's a 10 million

00:47:15.172 --> 00:47:16.492
gas limit on say,

00:47:18.112 --> 00:47:19.253
so they're dumping

00:47:19.293 --> 00:47:20.414
transactions in the men pool.

00:47:20.534 --> 00:47:22.416
The gas wanted is 10 million.

00:47:22.536 --> 00:47:23.856
So it takes the whole block space.

00:47:24.721 --> 00:47:25.722
the gas used is like 100,000.

00:47:27.483 --> 00:47:29.244
So when it actually goes through,

00:47:29.864 --> 00:47:31.125
there's still only one or

00:47:31.144 --> 00:47:32.246
two transactions in every

00:47:32.306 --> 00:47:34.427
block because this wanted

00:47:34.467 --> 00:47:35.929
number is fucking ridiculously high.

00:47:35.949 --> 00:47:38.670
So it uses like 1% or 4% of

00:47:38.690 --> 00:47:39.931
the actual gas space.

00:47:42.233 --> 00:47:43.974
And then all these mempool

00:47:44.014 --> 00:47:45.014
transactions back up

00:47:45.074 --> 00:47:45.835
because there's only one

00:47:45.894 --> 00:47:47.255
transaction in a freaking block.

00:47:47.836 --> 00:47:48.817
And then the mempool pulls

00:47:48.938 --> 00:47:49.898
up and then the price

00:47:49.918 --> 00:47:50.898
feeder fails and all this

00:47:50.938 --> 00:47:52.199
shit goes to shit because...

00:47:53.635 --> 00:47:54.755
So I ended up having to block them.

00:47:54.916 --> 00:47:55.496
I ended up having to,

00:47:55.516 --> 00:47:56.317
cause they're all at seven

00:47:56.336 --> 00:47:57.438
car RPC and the state team

00:47:57.478 --> 00:47:58.179
asked us to block them.

00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:01.161
So my question.

00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:02.262
So who,

00:48:02.902 --> 00:48:04.184
who is submitting those transactions?

00:48:04.503 --> 00:48:06.445
It's a, it's particle.

00:48:06.686 --> 00:48:08.146
They're doing a bunch of testing within,

00:48:08.726 --> 00:48:09.407
I don't know why they're,

00:48:09.668 --> 00:48:11.068
I don't know what those, those, those,

00:48:11.248 --> 00:48:12.329
I guess those transactions

00:48:12.369 --> 00:48:14.731
are pretty complex and they

00:48:14.751 --> 00:48:16.032
do take a lot of time to process,

00:48:16.072 --> 00:48:16.574
which we've seen.

00:48:16.594 --> 00:48:17.795
And we've seen a huge amount

00:48:17.894 --> 00:48:19.315
of like multiple rounds and

00:48:19.335 --> 00:48:20.016
blocks as well.

00:48:20.838 --> 00:48:22.360
And so it kind of went a little bit nuts.

00:48:23.601 --> 00:48:25.581
But we've seen that the gas

00:48:25.661 --> 00:48:27.083
wanted numbers are like really high.

00:48:27.103 --> 00:48:29.085
It's like three, four, 10 million.

00:48:29.945 --> 00:48:32.226
Are they deliberately trying

00:48:32.387 --> 00:48:33.306
to break things?

00:48:35.048 --> 00:48:36.289
That's a good question.

00:48:36.449 --> 00:48:37.190
The question was,

00:48:37.949 --> 00:48:39.711
how does that gas want to get calculated?

00:48:39.771 --> 00:48:40.811
Is that a client thing?

00:48:42.914 --> 00:48:45.454
So if I do a regular transaction in Kepler,

00:48:46.076 --> 00:48:48.056
is Kepler dictating the gas

00:48:48.177 --> 00:48:49.318
wanted based off the min

00:48:49.338 --> 00:48:50.219
gas price somehow?

00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:52.960
Or you mean that it was

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.701
suggested gas thing?

00:48:55.382 --> 00:48:56.722
Well, from my understanding,

00:48:56.742 --> 00:48:57.882
there's a gas wanted and

00:48:57.902 --> 00:48:59.184
there's a gas used, right?

00:48:59.224 --> 00:49:01.704
So if it calculates a wanted,

00:49:01.724 --> 00:49:03.967
I thought that was,

00:49:04.427 --> 00:49:06.367
the way I understood it is

00:49:06.487 --> 00:49:09.989
that it was doing a,

00:49:11.030 --> 00:49:11.831
there was some sort of

00:49:11.931 --> 00:49:12.431
understanding or

00:49:12.452 --> 00:49:13.552
calculation around how much

00:49:13.652 --> 00:49:16.173
gas space it would take in the block,

00:49:16.193 --> 00:49:16.333
right?

00:49:17.842 --> 00:49:19.923
And then that was at the

00:49:19.983 --> 00:49:21.804
time of submission.

00:49:23.106 --> 00:49:25.487
And then if the gas used was

00:49:25.807 --> 00:49:26.829
over that wanted,

00:49:26.849 --> 00:49:28.150
the transaction would fail.

00:49:29.431 --> 00:49:29.530
Like,

00:49:29.570 --> 00:49:31.331
it would never make it past a mempool,

00:49:31.452 --> 00:49:31.771
right?

00:49:32.032 --> 00:49:33.813
That's not right.

00:49:34.432 --> 00:49:35.474
The gas wanted is just what

00:49:35.494 --> 00:49:36.474
you specify when you make

00:49:36.494 --> 00:49:37.114
the transaction.

00:49:37.135 --> 00:49:38.434
You know, when you're doing a command line,

00:49:38.454 --> 00:49:39.295
you'd say gas 200,000.

00:49:39.295 --> 00:49:40.775
That's gas wanted.

00:49:41.277 --> 00:49:41.737
Yeah,

00:49:41.777 --> 00:49:43.157
so it's what it uses from its

00:49:43.438 --> 00:49:44.197
requirement.

00:49:44.277 --> 00:49:45.679
But it's the same as when

00:49:45.699 --> 00:49:48.619
you configure Kepler in a front-end UI,

00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:51.021
you basically submit, like,

00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:52.601
the values that the user

00:49:52.661 --> 00:49:54.222
can configure while they're

00:49:54.262 --> 00:49:56.003
interacting with your app are there.

00:49:56.784 --> 00:49:58.385
for the chat yeah so so

00:49:58.405 --> 00:49:59.885
they're specified yeah so

00:50:00.846 --> 00:50:02.967
like if you use the um the

00:50:03.047 --> 00:50:04.487
reference like the referral

00:50:04.969 --> 00:50:06.369
um method to get I'm not

00:50:06.389 --> 00:50:07.010
sure if they still have it

00:50:07.409 --> 00:50:09.291
for um kepler it used to be

00:50:09.550 --> 00:50:10.831
you know you'd put all of

00:50:10.891 --> 00:50:12.913
your um specifications in a

00:50:13.612 --> 00:50:16.114
in a um a json and then you

00:50:16.155 --> 00:50:17.655
refer it like that you can

00:50:17.856 --> 00:50:19.836
there was a method that

00:50:19.896 --> 00:50:21.878
would refer to the json object

00:50:23.257 --> 00:50:25.177
Well, whatever the object, it was,

00:50:25.217 --> 00:50:26.978
you specify it and then it

00:50:26.998 --> 00:50:29.157
goes into Kepler and then

00:50:29.197 --> 00:50:29.759
everything special.

00:50:29.958 --> 00:50:31.318
So you've got that, that low,

00:50:31.398 --> 00:50:32.498
medium and high gas

00:50:32.539 --> 00:50:33.739
specification in that.

00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:37.780
And if you look at the, um, Cosmos, uh,

00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:42.402
not directory, the Cosmos, um, fucking,

00:50:44.242 --> 00:50:46.722
uh, what is the, the, the director, the,

00:50:47.802 --> 00:50:48.123
you know,

00:50:48.143 --> 00:50:49.583
GitHub with all of the networks in it.

00:50:49.603 --> 00:50:50.543
I can't remember what it's called.

00:50:50.603 --> 00:50:51.103
Um, yeah.

00:50:53.655 --> 00:50:55.297
no cosmos directory is tom's

00:50:55.317 --> 00:50:58.018
thing but it's similar um

00:50:58.137 --> 00:50:59.139
but it's got all of you

00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:00.239
know the different teams

00:51:00.298 --> 00:51:01.400
maintain their their

00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:02.539
network parameters if you

00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:04.380
look in there they specify

00:51:04.481 --> 00:51:05.842
some low medium and high

00:51:06.742 --> 00:51:09.202
gas amounts but I mean it's

00:51:09.242 --> 00:51:10.364
calculated by the app

00:51:10.423 --> 00:51:12.505
anyway so you they can you

00:51:12.525 --> 00:51:13.885
can change it through um

00:51:14.286 --> 00:51:16.646
like when so when you make

00:51:16.686 --> 00:51:17.827
a transaction those gas

00:51:17.847 --> 00:51:20.668
settings that actually get used are

00:51:22.442 --> 00:51:23.342
network parameters.

00:51:23.902 --> 00:51:26.166
But the gas wanted is

00:51:26.246 --> 00:51:27.967
specified by whatever

00:51:28.027 --> 00:51:31.090
application is creating that transaction,

00:51:31.210 --> 00:51:31.771
that message.

00:51:33.032 --> 00:51:34.134
Does that hold block space?

00:51:36.197 --> 00:51:37.597
It must.

00:51:37.617 --> 00:51:39.699
I don't know if gas wanted holds blocks.

00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:42.202
Based on what we're seeing, it must.

00:51:42.563 --> 00:51:43.304
It must because...

00:51:44.434 --> 00:51:45.155
Because you can look at,

00:51:45.215 --> 00:51:45.695
you can look at these

00:51:45.735 --> 00:51:46.576
blocks and you can see like

00:51:46.715 --> 00:51:47.757
there's a transaction used

00:51:47.777 --> 00:51:49.119
a hundred thousand gas.

00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:50.639
Let's say whatever it's, whatever.

00:51:50.659 --> 00:51:54.003
This is 10 to the, it will,

00:51:54.083 --> 00:51:55.023
I think it will hold,

00:51:55.043 --> 00:51:58.728
it will hold assuming it's valid.

00:51:58.748 --> 00:52:02.170
It will hold the block space

00:52:02.431 --> 00:52:04.554
to submit the transaction

00:52:04.693 --> 00:52:05.614
from the mempool.

00:52:05.715 --> 00:52:05.914
Right.

00:52:07.650 --> 00:52:08.391
I don't think it would.

00:52:09.172 --> 00:52:09.771
That's the question.

00:52:10.092 --> 00:52:11.773
That's what we're seeing in actuality,

00:52:11.793 --> 00:52:13.454
at least in these examples.

00:52:13.695 --> 00:52:14.835
I think it would.

00:52:14.876 --> 00:52:15.996
There's a 10 million gas

00:52:16.416 --> 00:52:17.476
maximum per block.

00:52:17.556 --> 00:52:18.657
And we're seeing that a

00:52:18.757 --> 00:52:20.119
single transaction is going

00:52:20.139 --> 00:52:20.599
through some of these

00:52:20.619 --> 00:52:22.661
blocks where the gas wanted is 10 million,

00:52:23.081 --> 00:52:24.242
but the use is very low.

00:52:24.322 --> 00:52:25.663
And there's no other transactions,

00:52:25.782 --> 00:52:27.923
even though there might be

00:52:27.923 --> 00:52:29.244
1,000 transactions sitting

00:52:29.264 --> 00:52:29.684
in the mempool.

00:52:29.724 --> 00:52:32.226
Which is really weird.

00:52:32.327 --> 00:52:36.849
So each block has a max gas per block.

00:52:37.409 --> 00:52:38.831
Yeah, there's max gas per block.

00:52:38.851 --> 00:52:40.992
So that's a function of that, isn't it?

00:52:41.193 --> 00:52:43.514
Is that the gas wanted is

00:52:44.576 --> 00:52:47.958
getting up close enough to

00:52:47.998 --> 00:52:49.539
the max gas per block.

00:52:49.900 --> 00:52:51.101
I guess it doesn't know what

00:52:51.181 --> 00:52:53.302
gas is actual until it's in the block?

00:52:53.322 --> 00:52:54.563
I don't think so.

00:52:54.583 --> 00:52:56.224
Oh, Jorge's here.

00:52:59.686 --> 00:53:00.648
Perfect timing, Jorge says,

00:53:00.947 --> 00:53:02.289
gas wanted is what you're willing to pay.

00:53:02.329 --> 00:53:03.690
A submitter specifies this

00:53:03.730 --> 00:53:05.291
gas used can be lower,

00:53:05.672 --> 00:53:06.632
but you will be charged

00:53:06.672 --> 00:53:08.153
based on the gas wanted value.

00:53:08.813 --> 00:53:09.514
If there's refunds,

00:53:09.534 --> 00:53:10.335
that's probably an issue.

00:53:10.414 --> 00:53:12.896
Actually, that's exactly right.

00:53:12.936 --> 00:53:13.858
So what we're seeing is like

00:53:13.898 --> 00:53:14.739
these transactions,

00:53:15.983 --> 00:53:17.224
have a massive gas wanted

00:53:17.505 --> 00:53:19.144
the gas used is very low

00:53:19.824 --> 00:53:22.005
and the mempool is in crazy

00:53:22.065 --> 00:53:23.806
full and not coming down

00:53:23.907 --> 00:53:25.086
like I had to actually cut

00:53:25.126 --> 00:53:26.288
them off and once I cut

00:53:26.307 --> 00:53:27.527
them off then I had the

00:53:27.568 --> 00:53:29.429
chance to slowly bring the

00:53:29.469 --> 00:53:31.289
mempool down because they

00:53:31.309 --> 00:53:32.510
were not clearing out like

00:53:32.929 --> 00:53:34.791
and this is where you can

00:53:34.831 --> 00:53:36.751
get into like I think uh

00:53:36.811 --> 00:53:37.992
maybe early days of doubt

00:53:38.032 --> 00:53:39.193
how this was an issue too

00:53:39.253 --> 00:53:42.213
was that you have um

00:53:43.992 --> 00:53:45.134
if you do contracts,

00:53:45.193 --> 00:53:46.735
instantiating contracts,

00:53:47.275 --> 00:53:48.815
the gas can get out of hand

00:53:48.876 --> 00:53:49.516
quite quickly.

00:53:49.536 --> 00:53:50.376
And it's essentially,

00:53:50.396 --> 00:53:51.297
it's essentially that,

00:53:51.597 --> 00:53:54.619
that thing where you need to like you,

00:53:54.659 --> 00:53:54.858
well,

00:53:55.059 --> 00:53:56.960
you potentially need to tune the

00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:58.300
parameters such that the

00:53:58.340 --> 00:53:59.862
chain can actually handle, um,

00:54:01.523 --> 00:54:03.744
those instantiations and reliably.

00:54:06.088 --> 00:54:08.751
the block gas value needs to

00:54:08.771 --> 00:54:10.110
be high enough to reliably

00:54:10.150 --> 00:54:11.391
allow those things to be

00:54:12.052 --> 00:54:13.652
added via their gas wanted

00:54:13.693 --> 00:54:15.713
value so they don't error

00:54:15.793 --> 00:54:17.195
because always a user is

00:54:17.255 --> 00:54:18.315
trying to do something that

00:54:18.414 --> 00:54:19.315
they don't know that behind

00:54:19.335 --> 00:54:19.956
the scenes there's a

00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:21.199
um,

00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:23.601
contract being instantiated or whatever.

00:54:25.141 --> 00:54:25.742
And so that makes sense.

00:54:25.762 --> 00:54:26.862
So that, that's, it took us,

00:54:27.322 --> 00:54:28.202
I think that's the issue

00:54:28.242 --> 00:54:29.304
here and the refund.

00:54:30.264 --> 00:54:30.885
So they're never being

00:54:30.925 --> 00:54:32.065
charged on the gas wanted.

00:54:32.346 --> 00:54:35.186
And so there's no charge on that structure,

00:54:35.246 --> 00:54:36.648
which means that the gas

00:54:36.728 --> 00:54:38.068
wanted calculations are

00:54:38.088 --> 00:54:39.489
just fucking all over the place.

00:54:39.510 --> 00:54:40.769
Like it's just like setting

00:54:40.789 --> 00:54:42.130
a feast or whatever, because they don't,

00:54:42.210 --> 00:54:43.192
because life doesn't matter.

00:54:44.056 --> 00:54:44.936
But what that's doing is

00:54:44.976 --> 00:54:46.717
that- It is on testnet, right?

00:54:47.518 --> 00:54:48.759
No, it's happening on mainnet too.

00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:50.159
That's the other issue.

00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:52.061
We're having a bunch of issues with,

00:54:53.463 --> 00:54:54.222
my nodes are having a bunch

00:54:54.242 --> 00:54:55.023
of issues with mempools

00:54:55.063 --> 00:54:56.465
filling up and we couldn't

00:54:56.485 --> 00:54:57.905
figure out what the hell was going on.

00:54:58.065 --> 00:55:00.007
And even after I cut the RPC

00:55:00.027 --> 00:55:01.168
node gas to zero,

00:55:01.929 --> 00:55:02.710
that cleared things out,

00:55:02.730 --> 00:55:03.630
but it was actually

00:55:03.650 --> 00:55:04.831
starting to cut things down.

00:55:05.431 --> 00:55:06.572
But even with that,

00:55:06.652 --> 00:55:07.393
we were starting to see

00:55:07.534 --> 00:55:09.135
that on my price feeder node,

00:55:09.175 --> 00:55:11.498
my price feeder was not airing out,

00:55:11.518 --> 00:55:12.077
but the number of

00:55:12.318 --> 00:55:13.298
transactions in the mempool

00:55:13.378 --> 00:55:14.440
continued to grow.

00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:16.521
And we weren't sure exactly

00:55:16.641 --> 00:55:17.463
what the hell was going on.

00:55:17.483 --> 00:55:18.483
So that might be a separate issue,

00:55:18.543 --> 00:55:19.465
essentially, to some of that, but

00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:23.092
But- Yeah, that might be a separate issue.

00:55:23.152 --> 00:55:24.954
I'm not sure if those two

00:55:24.994 --> 00:55:25.914
things are related.

00:55:26.295 --> 00:55:28.556
But what we were seeing was

00:55:28.896 --> 00:55:30.498
that we were seeing a...

00:55:31.097 --> 00:55:32.840
And the other thing I was

00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:34.360
seeing was that the... I

00:55:34.380 --> 00:55:35.862
guess there's two different gas settings.

00:55:35.882 --> 00:55:38.143
There's a gas setting for the EVM side,

00:55:38.202 --> 00:55:38.943
even a minimum.

00:55:39.143 --> 00:55:39.864
And there's a gas setting

00:55:39.903 --> 00:55:41.666
for the tendermint, like the native side.

00:55:42.485 --> 00:55:43.806
And I was seeing like really

00:55:43.907 --> 00:55:45.608
low gas transactions EVM side.

00:55:45.648 --> 00:55:46.248
And then our...

00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:48.322
are transactions coming in

00:55:48.362 --> 00:55:49.621
from a price feeder being

00:55:50.242 --> 00:55:50.943
basically they're airing

00:55:51.003 --> 00:55:53.543
out like the other to be, it was, it was,

00:55:53.643 --> 00:55:54.565
there was already previous

00:55:54.585 --> 00:55:55.565
transactions in the men pool.

00:55:55.625 --> 00:55:55.965
So it was,

00:55:56.144 --> 00:55:57.226
it would fail and a bunch of

00:55:57.266 --> 00:55:57.925
weird ass shit.

00:55:58.746 --> 00:56:03.369
So anyway, it was, it was wacky.

00:56:04.934 --> 00:56:05.755
So they're trying to figure

00:56:05.775 --> 00:56:06.554
out what the hell to do with that.

00:56:06.974 --> 00:56:09.115
I don't know why we're, honestly,

00:56:09.195 --> 00:56:10.036
we're a few months in.

00:56:10.056 --> 00:56:12.056
So the logical thing to me is like,

00:56:12.076 --> 00:56:13.777
why would we be refunding

00:56:13.836 --> 00:56:14.956
EVM gas transactions?

00:56:14.996 --> 00:56:15.916
That seems like the most

00:56:16.297 --> 00:56:16.856
appropriate thing.

00:56:17.657 --> 00:56:18.237
And that would solve the

00:56:18.257 --> 00:56:18.858
issue pretty quick.

00:56:19.697 --> 00:56:19.998
Yeah.

00:56:20.018 --> 00:56:20.257
I mean,

00:56:20.277 --> 00:56:21.597
it kind of feels like you're

00:56:21.617 --> 00:56:23.657
getting DDoSed because

00:56:23.757 --> 00:56:25.498
there is the economic

00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:27.119
incentive that stops DDoSing,

00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:30.500
which is gas, is not being charged.

00:56:30.739 --> 00:56:32.079
So the predict...

00:56:32.788 --> 00:56:34.831
the predictable economic

00:56:34.971 --> 00:56:36.492
outcome based on incentives

00:56:36.733 --> 00:56:38.235
is in fact taking place.

00:56:38.876 --> 00:56:39.056
Right.

00:56:39.195 --> 00:56:40.157
So we were, and this was like,

00:56:40.438 --> 00:56:41.719
this was on main net.

00:56:41.759 --> 00:56:42.860
They did a couple of tests

00:56:43.061 --> 00:56:44.762
and on main net and on test net,

00:56:44.802 --> 00:56:46.565
they're both, I think refunded on both.

00:56:46.625 --> 00:56:49.208
Those main net was like something like 500,

00:56:49.208 --> 00:56:49.989
600 requests a second.

00:56:52.032 --> 00:56:53.052
And of those requests,

00:56:53.092 --> 00:56:54.733
like 90% were transactions,

00:56:54.833 --> 00:56:55.554
which I don't know exactly

00:56:55.574 --> 00:56:56.054
what's going on,

00:56:56.094 --> 00:56:56.954
but that's a separate issue.

00:56:57.574 --> 00:56:57.974
And mainnet,

00:56:57.994 --> 00:56:58.956
we had a couple spikes in

00:56:58.976 --> 00:57:00.076
there as well that we saw

00:57:00.096 --> 00:57:01.277
that similar type of structure.

00:57:02.197 --> 00:57:04.478
And I think with, yeah,

00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:05.818
so I think that's right.

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:07.460
I think that's exactly right.

00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:08.400
It's essentially a denial of

00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:09.420
service vector, right?

00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:10.782
Like that totally makes

00:57:10.802 --> 00:57:13.342
sense because you can set

00:57:13.362 --> 00:57:14.864
the gas wanted to whatever you want,

00:57:15.023 --> 00:57:16.164
but that does have an

00:57:16.224 --> 00:57:17.465
impact because there is a

00:57:17.505 --> 00:57:18.565
max gas per block and

00:57:18.606 --> 00:57:19.565
that's still calculated

00:57:19.626 --> 00:57:20.447
even if it's refunded.

00:57:21.067 --> 00:57:21.788
So therefore,

00:57:22.188 --> 00:57:23.590
you're just fucking flooding

00:57:23.610 --> 00:57:24.932
the mempools with shit

00:57:24.952 --> 00:57:25.994
because there's no payments.

00:57:26.014 --> 00:57:26.916
And then you just say, hey,

00:57:27.476 --> 00:57:29.119
I'm giving you one say per transaction.

00:57:30.322 --> 00:57:32.382
So this is one of the big

00:57:32.563 --> 00:57:34.563
differences between public

00:57:34.784 --> 00:57:38.045
permissionless blockchains

00:57:38.226 --> 00:57:40.487
and either consortium or

00:57:40.507 --> 00:57:42.568
private blockchains is that

00:57:42.947 --> 00:57:44.009
one of the reasons why a

00:57:44.028 --> 00:57:46.030
lot of them do end up

00:57:46.090 --> 00:57:47.389
having a token anyway,

00:57:47.449 --> 00:57:48.650
but one of the big reasons

00:57:48.690 --> 00:57:50.291
you can avoid having a token

00:57:51.231 --> 00:57:52.112
is because you don't have to

00:57:52.152 --> 00:57:53.653
worry about gas and Sybils

00:57:53.773 --> 00:57:54.375
in the same way.

00:57:54.394 --> 00:57:56.396
I mean, Sybils is another story, actually,

00:57:56.516 --> 00:57:56.797
really,

00:57:56.817 --> 00:58:00.119
because Sybils you actually can't

00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:01.960
really meaningfully defend against,

00:58:02.041 --> 00:58:02.842
even though people kind of

00:58:04.063 --> 00:58:05.443
make a lot of huff and puff about it.

00:58:07.766 --> 00:58:09.208
But yeah,

00:58:09.427 --> 00:58:12.369
it is kind of like part of the

00:58:12.429 --> 00:58:13.610
reason that you need an

00:58:13.690 --> 00:58:17.173
endogenous token that is related to the

00:58:18.496 --> 00:58:19.155
Yeah, it's the gap.

00:58:20.436 --> 00:58:21.336
So this is actually another

00:58:21.536 --> 00:58:22.657
interesting corollary of this,

00:58:22.697 --> 00:58:23.797
or at least interesting to me,

00:58:23.818 --> 00:58:25.159
a complete loser,

00:58:25.978 --> 00:58:28.059
is that I was having a conversation.

00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:31.360
My supervisor is very

00:58:31.581 --> 00:58:33.742
involved in ISO standards committees.

00:58:36.342 --> 00:58:38.164
You know all those people who like,

00:58:38.523 --> 00:58:39.204
I actually think it's good

00:58:39.224 --> 00:58:40.744
because I'm quite lazy and

00:58:40.784 --> 00:58:43.846
I sort of speak in quite a general nonce.

00:58:43.967 --> 00:58:45.407
I'm not good with specifics, right?

00:58:45.547 --> 00:58:46.246
I'm a rambler.

00:58:46.347 --> 00:58:46.967
That's my thing.

00:58:49.007 --> 00:58:51.489
And it's kind of good, actually,

00:58:52.070 --> 00:58:53.072
when you say something like

00:58:53.251 --> 00:58:54.974
native token and then somebody is like,

00:58:55.514 --> 00:58:55.695
yes,

00:58:55.775 --> 00:58:57.536
but what do you mean by native token?

00:58:57.556 --> 00:58:59.159
And you're like, well, this.

00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:00.260
And they're like, well,

00:59:01.202 --> 00:59:03.204
we had a three-hour

00:59:03.264 --> 00:59:05.708
conversation at the ISO thing about this.

00:59:05.947 --> 00:59:06.047
And

00:59:06.929 --> 00:59:07.849
have you considered this

00:59:07.909 --> 00:59:08.789
counterpoint which would

00:59:08.809 --> 00:59:10.050
also fit your definition

00:59:10.090 --> 00:59:11.331
but not be correct and

00:59:11.371 --> 00:59:13.351
you're like oh that is a

00:59:13.391 --> 00:59:14.871
good one and this is how I

00:59:14.911 --> 00:59:16.152
get nothing done on my phd

00:59:16.172 --> 00:59:17.432
because I end up down with

00:59:17.452 --> 00:59:18.373
these bloody rabbit holes

00:59:18.393 --> 00:59:21.833
for hours on end but um but

00:59:21.853 --> 00:59:23.494
yeah the tldr is that

00:59:23.514 --> 00:59:24.954
defining like what we talk

00:59:24.994 --> 00:59:25.755
about all the time like

00:59:25.815 --> 00:59:27.536
native token is super hard

00:59:27.715 --> 00:59:28.916
like it's super super hard

00:59:29.016 --> 00:59:30.697
because it's just doesn't

00:59:30.737 --> 00:59:32.077
apply to every situation in

00:59:32.097 --> 00:59:33.297
which you might intuitively

00:59:33.338 --> 00:59:34.119
think that there's a thing

00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:34.958
that we would maybe

00:59:36.434 --> 00:59:37.934
coordinated token as jargon

00:59:38.394 --> 00:59:39.815
gas token I guess exists on

00:59:39.835 --> 00:59:40.737
quite a lot of blockchains

00:59:40.777 --> 00:59:41.878
though yeah which I guess

00:59:41.918 --> 00:59:42.617
is the end of my point

00:59:42.657 --> 00:59:44.278
there which is that you

00:59:44.298 --> 00:59:47.081
know you need gas need gas

00:59:47.121 --> 00:59:48.021
tokens on a public

00:59:48.061 --> 00:59:49.021
permissionless blockchain

00:59:49.041 --> 00:59:50.362
otherwise it will be ddos'd

00:59:50.844 --> 00:59:53.985
that is how it works yeah

00:59:55.186 --> 00:59:56.447
um I'm just I'm actually

00:59:56.487 --> 00:59:57.349
typing that team because

00:59:57.369 --> 00:59:58.030
I'm gonna tell them those

00:59:58.050 --> 00:59:59.211
are both good suggestions I

00:59:59.251 --> 01:00:00.715
think corey mentioned the

01:00:00.795 --> 01:00:02.637
max gas per transaction I

01:00:02.657 --> 01:00:03.878
don't see that as a config

01:00:03.898 --> 01:00:04.719
and what I'm looking at but

01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:05.521
maybe that's something that

01:00:05.561 --> 01:00:06.722
can exist I do see like max

01:00:06.762 --> 01:00:07.945
transaction bytes and all

01:00:08.125 --> 01:00:09.086
you know obviously all that

01:00:09.126 --> 01:00:10.148
the kind of associated to that

01:00:11.034 --> 01:00:13.094
Um, and that would be cool.

01:00:13.114 --> 01:00:14.034
That's a really good idea.

01:00:14.135 --> 01:00:15.655
And the other one is don't

01:00:15.695 --> 01:00:16.596
refund it a hundred percent,

01:00:16.876 --> 01:00:19.818
like lower the refund, like refund,

01:00:19.838 --> 01:00:22.458
refund, 25 refund, 50%.

01:00:22.458 --> 01:00:22.579
Um,

01:00:22.778 --> 01:00:25.719
you don't need me to write you a paper

01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:26.199
on that one.

01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:27.101
That's the,

01:00:27.121 --> 01:00:28.481
that was the reason for doing

01:00:28.521 --> 01:00:29.842
the whole thing in the first place.

01:00:29.862 --> 01:00:30.202
Come on.

01:00:30.422 --> 01:00:32.882
That's in the, in the Bitcoin paper.

01:00:35.164 --> 01:00:35.324
Yep.

01:00:37.454 --> 01:00:37.614
Cool.

01:00:37.695 --> 01:00:38.878
Anyway, that was really good.

01:00:39.097 --> 01:00:40.822
I'm glad to see this podcast is helpful.

01:00:42.164 --> 01:00:42.885
Yeah.

01:00:43.146 --> 01:00:45.271
So I have a crypto topic as well,

01:00:45.471 --> 01:00:46.172
which is that...

01:00:47.802 --> 01:00:51.063
um I am just trying to work

01:00:51.143 --> 01:00:52.324
out what what I can

01:00:52.385 --> 01:00:53.965
reasonably yeah you know

01:00:54.045 --> 01:00:55.226
whatever like this is a

01:00:55.266 --> 01:00:56.585
technical audience I can

01:00:56.646 --> 01:00:58.047
blind with I can just

01:00:59.166 --> 01:01:00.427
whatever nobody nobody

01:01:00.447 --> 01:01:02.847
cares um so I had an

01:01:02.927 --> 01:01:03.889
interesting conversation

01:01:04.048 --> 01:01:06.570
with somebody from the

01:01:06.590 --> 01:01:10.110
appsos team about their um

01:01:11.692 --> 01:01:12.592
about their consensus

01:01:13.233 --> 01:01:15.454
mechanism um this week

01:01:15.635 --> 01:01:17.255
because there's you know

01:01:17.275 --> 01:01:18.074
there's like the shoal

01:01:18.195 --> 01:01:19.155
implementation stuff and

01:01:19.175 --> 01:01:19.715
some of the things that

01:01:19.755 --> 01:01:22.476
happen during um like uh

01:01:22.536 --> 01:01:24.717
preview nets and like uh

01:01:24.998 --> 01:01:25.938
performance load tests and

01:01:25.958 --> 01:01:26.958
stuff like that they've

01:01:26.978 --> 01:01:27.998
obviously tried a lot a lot

01:01:28.018 --> 01:01:29.119
of different improvements

01:01:29.798 --> 01:01:34.960
to um the the dag stuff and

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:35.641
all of that which is

01:01:35.681 --> 01:01:37.161
obviously based on there's

01:01:37.181 --> 01:01:37.800
like a whole bunch of

01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:40.021
papers like the dag rider one and then

01:01:40.842 --> 01:01:43.025
Narwhal, Narwhal Tusk,

01:01:44.806 --> 01:01:45.427
what are they on now?

01:01:45.748 --> 01:01:51.275
Bullshark Jolteon and then Bullshark Shoal,

01:01:51.295 --> 01:01:54.878
which is so the new hotness

01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.844
is the Bullshark Shoal implementation,

01:01:58.943 --> 01:01:59.304
I believe.

01:02:00.130 --> 01:02:00.632
Okay.

01:02:00.931 --> 01:02:01.932
Citation needed.

01:02:02.072 --> 01:02:02.353
Anyway,

01:02:02.373 --> 01:02:03.434
I might have got that slightly

01:02:03.474 --> 01:02:04.514
wrong in terms of the

01:02:04.534 --> 01:02:06.416
different Byzantine

01:02:06.456 --> 01:02:07.936
fault-tolerant approaches.

01:02:08.577 --> 01:02:11.320
But anyway, it's really... Basically,

01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:12.039
I had a really interesting

01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:12.601
conversation with them

01:02:12.641 --> 01:02:14.561
about the actual things

01:02:14.581 --> 01:02:15.802
that they were optimizing

01:02:15.922 --> 01:02:17.905
for because there are...

01:02:20.407 --> 01:02:22.849
There's no slashing, right, on Aptos.

01:02:24.190 --> 01:02:24.389
Right.

01:02:24.690 --> 01:02:26.231
And the...

01:02:28.010 --> 01:02:29.610
My assumption has always

01:02:29.731 --> 01:02:35.211
been that the low number of

01:02:35.271 --> 01:02:37.713
validators plus low, low,

01:02:37.773 --> 01:02:39.713
low number of tokens issued,

01:02:39.733 --> 01:02:41.894
or comparatively low number

01:02:41.934 --> 01:02:43.315
of tokens issued... Token's

01:02:43.355 --> 01:02:44.574
in circulation.

01:02:44.835 --> 01:02:46.516
Yeah, so they're currently circulating,

01:02:46.556 --> 01:02:49.637
sorry, means, yeah, you're right,

01:02:49.936 --> 01:02:50.797
a large number issued to

01:02:50.818 --> 01:02:51.518
investors and whatnot.

01:02:52.885 --> 01:02:55.346
um was essentially designed

01:02:55.585 --> 01:02:58.507
to make economic finality

01:02:58.867 --> 01:03:02.847
work that is finality only

01:03:02.929 --> 01:03:04.809
secured by economic

01:03:04.829 --> 01:03:05.809
incentives and nothing else

01:03:06.369 --> 01:03:07.289
not that proof of work

01:03:07.389 --> 01:03:08.570
actually under the hood is

01:03:08.630 --> 01:03:09.550
really secured by anything

01:03:09.570 --> 01:03:10.251
other than economic

01:03:10.271 --> 01:03:10.911
incentives but that's

01:03:10.931 --> 01:03:13.152
another story um you can

01:03:13.172 --> 01:03:13.692
read the academic

01:03:13.731 --> 01:03:14.452
literature on that if

01:03:14.472 --> 01:03:15.012
you're interested um

01:03:18.289 --> 01:03:21.449
But the thing that you kind of then go is,

01:03:21.650 --> 01:03:22.050
okay, well,

01:03:22.110 --> 01:03:24.070
but if you just deployed Aptos, right,

01:03:24.090 --> 01:03:25.431
but without the VCs,

01:03:25.490 --> 01:03:27.351
without the implied market

01:03:27.391 --> 01:03:28.492
makers and all that sort of stuff,

01:03:29.572 --> 01:03:30.592
would it work in its

01:03:30.632 --> 01:03:32.873
current form without the

01:03:32.893 --> 01:03:33.693
slashing mechanic?

01:03:33.753 --> 01:03:35.134
Like would validators just be down?

01:03:35.653 --> 01:03:36.635
Because the reason

01:03:36.675 --> 01:03:37.594
validators are up in the

01:03:37.614 --> 01:03:38.614
current mechanic is because

01:03:38.655 --> 01:03:40.416
it's still profitable to run a validator,

01:03:40.476 --> 01:03:40.655
right?

01:03:40.996 --> 01:03:43.717
Unlike the Cosmos, shockingly.

01:03:43.737 --> 01:03:44.617
Yeah.

01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:48.458
And the answer I think is no.

01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:51.059
The answer I think is the

01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:52.340
thing that protects Aptos

01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:54.882
from competition, from just forking Aptos,

01:03:55.822 --> 01:03:56.922
and the same is probably

01:03:56.961 --> 01:03:57.882
true of SWE as well,

01:03:58.422 --> 01:03:59.382
although obviously the

01:03:59.402 --> 01:04:00.403
implementation is different,

01:04:00.523 --> 01:04:02.684
is that you actually can't

01:04:03.065 --> 01:04:05.965
deploy it and have it work

01:04:06.666 --> 01:04:07.646
without all of the

01:04:07.706 --> 01:04:09.827
additional economic

01:04:09.887 --> 01:04:11.728
infrastructure of VC cash

01:04:11.788 --> 01:04:13.487
and market makers and yada yada,

01:04:14.148 --> 01:04:15.228
because it has to be

01:04:16.373 --> 01:04:17.693
substantially profitable

01:04:17.773 --> 01:04:20.434
enough for all nodes

01:04:20.594 --> 01:04:21.795
including ones with a much

01:04:21.855 --> 01:04:23.175
smaller staking base to

01:04:23.255 --> 01:04:26.916
actually be up or well I

01:04:26.936 --> 01:04:28.615
mean you only need 66.7% of

01:04:28.655 --> 01:04:29.516
all voting power so

01:04:29.556 --> 01:04:30.295
actually the smaller nodes

01:04:30.335 --> 01:04:31.637
can go hang at the end of

01:04:31.677 --> 01:04:34.336
the day but you need in a

01:04:34.376 --> 01:04:34.996
situation where you

01:04:35.056 --> 01:04:37.257
essentially have explicitly

01:04:37.577 --> 01:04:38.677
you are launching with a

01:04:38.717 --> 01:04:39.797
set of partners and you're

01:04:39.818 --> 01:04:41.038
expanding a partner base

01:04:41.097 --> 01:04:41.918
initially before

01:04:41.978 --> 01:04:44.818
decentralizing further it means that

01:04:46.487 --> 01:04:47.349
with the market makers and

01:04:47.369 --> 01:04:48.528
everything in place you can

01:04:48.789 --> 01:04:50.291
essentially optimize for

01:04:50.851 --> 01:04:52.072
the same things that a

01:04:52.132 --> 01:04:53.112
private blockchain would

01:04:53.152 --> 01:04:56.675
optimize for um so that's

01:04:56.755 --> 01:04:57.775
kind of the punch line

01:04:57.835 --> 01:04:58.735
that's the interesting

01:04:58.775 --> 01:04:59.836
punch line about the way

01:05:00.838 --> 01:05:01.918
aptos works at the moment

01:05:01.938 --> 01:05:04.139
and why they don't have um

01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:06.842
slashing um but also like

01:05:06.882 --> 01:05:09.163
the way the dag um reasons

01:05:09.222 --> 01:05:11.224
about um my notebook is

01:05:11.264 --> 01:05:12.606
unfortunately not here so

01:05:12.985 --> 01:05:14.266
I'm not going to say too

01:05:14.286 --> 01:05:15.266
much detail because I don't

01:05:15.286 --> 01:05:16.108
want to get it wrong

01:05:17.498 --> 01:05:18.478
But the way the DAG is

01:05:18.538 --> 01:05:20.239
constructed in a

01:05:20.318 --> 01:05:21.018
combination with the way

01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:22.338
the leader mechanism works,

01:05:22.378 --> 01:05:24.039
which is like a reputation system,

01:05:24.059 --> 01:05:27.721
it kind of eliminates one

01:05:27.740 --> 01:05:29.780
of the three steps required in tendermint,

01:05:30.521 --> 01:05:31.422
is my understanding,

01:05:32.001 --> 01:05:33.641
which is pretty interesting as well.

01:05:33.661 --> 01:05:34.601
Because in tendermint,

01:05:34.621 --> 01:05:39.184
you have the... You have,

01:05:39.264 --> 01:05:39.764
what's it called?

01:05:39.784 --> 01:05:40.123
Pre...

01:05:42.358 --> 01:05:43.059
i always get the wrong way

01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:45.280
around um I want to say

01:05:45.302 --> 01:05:46.882
it's pre-vote pre-commit

01:05:46.943 --> 01:05:48.043
commit right it's a

01:05:48.083 --> 01:05:48.923
three-stage thing and

01:05:48.943 --> 01:05:50.005
there's a lock over each of

01:05:50.065 --> 01:05:52.047
them and yes effectively

01:05:52.086 --> 01:05:52.907
there's there's a stage

01:05:52.967 --> 01:05:54.708
where everybody says we're

01:05:54.748 --> 01:05:56.349
ready to go that's like in

01:05:56.389 --> 01:05:59.112
the pbft paper it's prepare

01:05:59.291 --> 01:05:59.893
I think it's the name of

01:05:59.913 --> 01:06:01.673
that stage um and they kind

01:06:01.693 --> 01:06:03.215
of loosely map on to to

01:06:03.255 --> 01:06:05.516
tenderman right but you

01:06:05.657 --> 01:06:06.617
essentially like the the

01:06:08.010 --> 01:06:10.231
because you're gossiping, first of all,

01:06:10.271 --> 01:06:10.992
there's data gossiping

01:06:11.032 --> 01:06:11.731
happening all the time.

01:06:12.132 --> 01:06:13.452
Second of all, there's this DAG,

01:06:13.512 --> 01:06:14.793
which is either there or not.

01:06:15.434 --> 01:06:16.996
And the presence of the DAG

01:06:17.036 --> 01:06:17.735
and the presence of the

01:06:17.775 --> 01:06:19.737
validators in it is

01:06:19.896 --> 01:06:25.320
implicitly that is the prepare step.

01:06:25.420 --> 01:06:26.300
And then implicitly,

01:06:26.380 --> 01:06:27.561
because the validators are in it,

01:06:27.742 --> 01:06:28.922
you essentially have that

01:06:29.322 --> 01:06:30.224
we're also ready to go.

01:06:30.244 --> 01:06:32.025
So there's a whole bunch of

01:06:32.065 --> 01:06:33.065
really interesting things

01:06:33.085 --> 01:06:33.525
that I hadn't really

01:06:33.545 --> 01:06:35.347
thought about in terms of how the graph

01:06:37.605 --> 01:06:38.985
based approach to the data

01:06:39.045 --> 01:06:40.467
actually does like simplify

01:06:40.507 --> 01:06:45.273
some of the finagling

01:06:45.313 --> 01:06:46.534
required to actually do the

01:06:47.114 --> 01:06:49.177
the the nitty-gritty of of

01:06:49.257 --> 01:06:50.438
byzantine fault tolerance

01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:52.639
but yeah I don't know like

01:06:52.739 --> 01:06:54.742
it I'm not really sure the

01:06:54.762 --> 01:06:56.324
point of all that was other

01:06:56.364 --> 01:06:57.485
than I think the

01:06:58.123 --> 01:06:59.344
The Daggerider and Shull

01:06:59.384 --> 01:07:00.644
stuff continues to be

01:07:00.804 --> 01:07:02.025
endlessly fascinating if

01:07:02.065 --> 01:07:04.148
you're into consensus systems and graphs.

01:07:04.789 --> 01:07:06.190
Actually,

01:07:06.230 --> 01:07:08.351
we should put it in the show notes.

01:07:08.371 --> 01:07:09.432
There's a good not paper,

01:07:09.532 --> 01:07:11.634
but a blog post on the

01:07:11.673 --> 01:07:13.356
Aptos Engineering blog actually about

01:07:14.275 --> 01:07:16.797
the shoal mechanism which is

01:07:17.237 --> 01:07:18.217
actually quite digestible

01:07:18.297 --> 01:07:19.237
readable and there's a good

01:07:19.257 --> 01:07:21.400
section on the validated

01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:22.179
presence thing I just

01:07:22.199 --> 01:07:22.940
talked about and it's

01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:23.981
written down in a way

01:07:24.021 --> 01:07:25.702
that's much more clear than

01:07:25.782 --> 01:07:27.844
I can explain it so um that

01:07:28.103 --> 01:07:29.043
obviously doesn't cover the

01:07:29.103 --> 01:07:31.346
economic um stuff around

01:07:32.427 --> 01:07:37.309
lack of uh slashing it's at

01:07:37.369 --> 01:07:38.990
the end but but the

01:07:39.815 --> 01:07:41.436
The interesting conclusion, I think,

01:07:41.536 --> 01:07:44.798
from the Aptos team, as far as I can tell,

01:07:45.278 --> 01:07:45.980
they are obviously doing

01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:49.621
work on incentive design

01:07:50.282 --> 01:07:52.003
for a world in which it is

01:07:52.184 --> 01:07:53.505
much more decentralized.

01:07:53.545 --> 01:07:53.744
Well,

01:07:54.425 --> 01:07:55.806
maybe decentralized isn't even the word,

01:07:55.847 --> 01:07:56.947
but there are many more

01:07:57.027 --> 01:08:00.170
nodes in the network.

01:08:01.110 --> 01:08:02.030
But it's not clear that

01:08:02.090 --> 01:08:03.992
slashing will necessarily

01:08:04.032 --> 01:08:05.353
be the answer there either.

01:08:06.309 --> 01:08:07.188
And there's a kind of a

01:08:07.228 --> 01:08:08.389
general sense that slashing

01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:09.590
hasn't necessarily worked

01:08:09.750 --> 01:08:10.989
as intended as an incentive

01:08:11.030 --> 01:08:11.889
mechanism elsewhere.

01:08:11.929 --> 01:08:13.411
And so part of the

01:08:13.490 --> 01:08:15.650
motivation for the way

01:08:15.771 --> 01:08:16.752
they've scaled the network

01:08:16.792 --> 01:08:18.731
so far has actually been to

01:08:19.752 --> 01:08:21.153
avoid having to implement

01:08:21.212 --> 01:08:21.813
something that would be

01:08:21.872 --> 01:08:23.592
difficult to roll back on later.

01:08:23.993 --> 01:08:26.373
And slashing is difficult to

01:08:27.333 --> 01:08:28.213
deal with later, right?

01:08:30.855 --> 01:08:32.377
If you implement it,

01:08:32.516 --> 01:08:34.677
you're stuck with probably

01:08:34.899 --> 01:08:36.560
upgrading that rather than

01:08:36.619 --> 01:08:37.520
necessarily ripping it out

01:08:37.539 --> 01:08:38.180
and starting over.

01:08:38.921 --> 01:08:42.042
So, yeah.

01:08:43.264 --> 01:08:44.604
But it's interesting, obviously,

01:08:44.685 --> 01:08:46.286
that that assumption can

01:08:46.365 --> 01:08:47.966
only really hold... The

01:08:47.987 --> 01:08:49.268
assumption you don't need slashing,

01:08:51.389 --> 01:08:52.590
at least in the view of those teams...

01:08:52.944 --> 01:08:54.545
kind of only holds in a

01:08:54.604 --> 01:08:56.466
situation where you're not

01:08:56.546 --> 01:08:58.708
yet in an adversarial situation,

01:08:58.769 --> 01:09:00.649
like a true adversarial situation.

01:09:00.689 --> 01:09:01.951
Like you don't have

01:09:02.011 --> 01:09:03.552
Byzantine behavior happening.

01:09:03.912 --> 01:09:05.975
You don't have large nodes

01:09:05.994 --> 01:09:07.095
with significant amounts of

01:09:07.155 --> 01:09:08.476
state going away or not

01:09:08.577 --> 01:09:12.079
upgrading cough cough every

01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:13.480
time you're waiting for a

01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:14.801
top five validator in

01:09:14.841 --> 01:09:16.662
cosmos to actually upgrade their node.

01:09:18.824 --> 01:09:19.064
You know,

01:09:19.104 --> 01:09:20.305
those sorts of situations haven't

01:09:20.326 --> 01:09:20.766
happened yet.

01:09:22.261 --> 01:09:22.902
So, I mean, there's,

01:09:22.942 --> 01:09:23.643
there's just a whole bunch

01:09:23.662 --> 01:09:24.502
of stuff that I think is

01:09:24.542 --> 01:09:25.524
quite interesting when you

01:09:25.564 --> 01:09:27.585
reflect on like the luxury

01:09:27.625 --> 01:09:32.146
of a top 30 blockchain versus, you know,

01:09:32.207 --> 01:09:32.367
much,

01:09:32.407 --> 01:09:33.967
much more than market cap blockchains.

01:09:34.807 --> 01:09:35.547
Why are we, why,

01:09:35.627 --> 01:09:36.929
why do you even have this conversation?

01:09:36.948 --> 01:09:37.448
I thought you were,

01:09:38.029 --> 01:09:41.791
was this related to the, the work you got,

01:09:41.850 --> 01:09:43.032
you're performing and kind

01:09:43.072 --> 01:09:43.832
of in relationship to the

01:09:43.851 --> 01:09:44.712
Cosmos stuff and everything

01:09:44.733 --> 01:09:45.493
else we've been talking about,

01:09:45.552 --> 01:09:47.014
or is it like, where do they come,

01:09:47.054 --> 01:09:47.814
do they come up out of that

01:09:47.833 --> 01:09:49.534
or where do they come up out of it?

01:09:50.117 --> 01:09:51.037
kind of came up because I

01:09:51.056 --> 01:09:52.578
was reading like I I've

01:09:52.597 --> 01:09:53.917
been reading the the show

01:09:53.957 --> 01:09:54.818
papers and all that sort of

01:09:54.837 --> 01:09:56.078
stuff anyway because I

01:09:56.118 --> 01:09:58.599
think like the the work

01:09:58.738 --> 01:09:59.579
around narwhal and

01:09:59.619 --> 01:10:01.800
everything is like it's the

01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:03.520
cutting edge of practical

01:10:03.541 --> 01:10:04.680
byzantine fault tolerance

01:10:04.740 --> 01:10:07.902
right um I think it's like

01:10:07.942 --> 01:10:09.101
important to kind of try

01:10:09.141 --> 01:10:10.042
and get under the hood and

01:10:10.063 --> 01:10:10.863
like understand

01:10:12.221 --> 01:10:13.122
what each of those

01:10:13.203 --> 01:10:15.485
incremental improvements has done.

01:10:15.506 --> 01:10:17.488
And like, I'm not really a detail person.

01:10:17.529 --> 01:10:18.350
Like I'm a kind of big

01:10:18.369 --> 01:10:20.032
picture sort of person.

01:10:20.072 --> 01:10:21.012
So I find it like really,

01:10:21.033 --> 01:10:21.993
really difficult to hang on

01:10:22.055 --> 01:10:23.796
to like really, really specific details.

01:10:23.817 --> 01:10:25.958
And so it's been quite an uphill struggle,

01:10:26.100 --> 01:10:27.020
but I think also like,

01:10:28.552 --> 01:10:29.833
the incentive design stuff

01:10:29.894 --> 01:10:31.454
is like very very relevant

01:10:31.635 --> 01:10:32.536
I think and we've

01:10:32.655 --> 01:10:33.536
complained in this podcast

01:10:33.796 --> 01:10:34.756
over and over about like

01:10:34.817 --> 01:10:35.817
slashing and whether or not

01:10:35.837 --> 01:10:37.337
it does what's intended and

01:10:37.998 --> 01:10:39.899
that when it goes wrong it

01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:41.301
you know people just like

01:10:41.360 --> 01:10:42.601
right stop the blockchain

01:10:42.641 --> 01:10:43.601
rewrite the blockchain and

01:10:43.622 --> 01:10:44.502
whatever and that's like

01:10:46.243 --> 01:10:48.164
the rewrite is so much more

01:10:48.204 --> 01:10:49.886
dangerous than the slash to

01:10:49.926 --> 01:10:50.805
the integrity of the

01:10:50.867 --> 01:10:53.268
network sure like that's

01:10:53.747 --> 01:10:54.788
you know just written a

01:10:54.828 --> 01:10:56.069
paper all about that so

01:10:57.520 --> 01:10:59.261
where it overlaps with my work, I guess,

01:10:59.322 --> 01:11:00.122
is saying that, look,

01:11:01.582 --> 01:11:02.563
the integrity of the

01:11:02.582 --> 01:11:04.064
blockchain is more

01:11:04.104 --> 01:11:06.024
threatened by state by

01:11:06.064 --> 01:11:07.164
slashing being implemented

01:11:07.204 --> 01:11:08.966
wrong in some ways,

01:11:09.865 --> 01:11:12.226
although you do need an incentive,

01:11:13.266 --> 01:11:14.787
you know, for, for uptime.

01:11:15.287 --> 01:11:15.467
Right.

01:11:15.528 --> 01:11:16.849
And it just so happens that

01:11:18.128 --> 01:11:19.449
assuming people will be up

01:11:19.609 --> 01:11:20.329
because they will make

01:11:20.430 --> 01:11:21.850
money is not enough of

01:11:21.990 --> 01:11:22.970
incentive because people

01:11:23.011 --> 01:11:23.871
don't make enough money.

01:11:24.971 --> 01:11:25.091
Um,

01:11:27.016 --> 01:11:33.439
So, yeah, I don't know.

01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:35.099
It's the beginning of a thread of inquiry,

01:11:35.158 --> 01:11:35.520
I guess.

01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:37.359
What else is there?

01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:38.600
What else can you do in that space,

01:11:38.659 --> 01:11:41.261
in the incentive design space,

01:11:41.341 --> 01:11:42.962
rather than just the protocol space?

01:11:43.101 --> 01:11:43.822
And I think that

01:11:44.528 --> 01:11:45.929
the idea that you can encode

01:11:46.128 --> 01:11:46.970
of how much you can

01:11:47.010 --> 01:11:48.711
actually encode implicitly in the,

01:11:48.810 --> 01:11:50.072
in the consensus dag is,

01:11:50.311 --> 01:11:51.672
is just all that stuff is

01:11:51.693 --> 01:11:52.533
just super interesting.

01:11:52.594 --> 01:11:54.135
I don't have any big insight of like, uh,

01:11:55.176 --> 01:11:56.216
and here's my, no,

01:11:56.275 --> 01:11:58.257
the people that wrote the design,

01:11:58.297 --> 01:12:00.038
those things are just very

01:12:00.099 --> 01:12:01.979
clever people in a way that I'm not,

01:12:02.581 --> 01:12:05.443
but I just continually impressed, uh,

01:12:06.265 --> 01:12:09.349
by some of the elegance in

01:12:09.389 --> 01:12:11.229
that design I suppose is my

01:12:11.250 --> 01:12:13.192
takeaway from beginning to

01:12:13.231 --> 01:12:13.912
understand some of that

01:12:13.932 --> 01:12:15.274
stuff a little bit more so

01:12:15.854 --> 01:12:16.814
and consensus systems

01:12:17.015 --> 01:12:18.176
continue to be cool who

01:12:18.216 --> 01:12:20.838
knew right uh they might

01:12:20.859 --> 01:12:22.180
not be making it they

01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:23.201
continue to be cool so is

01:12:24.141 --> 01:12:25.122
that yeah it was been

01:12:25.143 --> 01:12:26.283
pretty cool but it's been

01:12:26.323 --> 01:12:29.926
cooler all the time yeah um

01:12:31.740 --> 01:12:34.302
So yeah, anyway, but like, yeah,

01:12:34.342 --> 01:12:34.844
that was cool.

01:12:34.904 --> 01:12:36.284
And also I think the other

01:12:36.305 --> 01:12:37.305
thing was it contextualized

01:12:37.324 --> 01:12:38.105
some of the work that's

01:12:38.166 --> 01:12:40.507
happened in these preview

01:12:40.528 --> 01:12:41.229
networks and whatnot,

01:12:41.248 --> 01:12:42.609
where we've been running

01:12:42.649 --> 01:12:43.871
this stuff at scale to see

01:12:43.951 --> 01:12:46.091
how it works and how it

01:12:46.152 --> 01:12:47.533
doesn't work and whatnot.

01:12:47.654 --> 01:12:48.994
You're kind of like, okay, that's cool.

01:12:49.395 --> 01:12:50.256
But I think it's also like,

01:12:50.435 --> 01:12:51.476
it's kind of interesting to see

01:12:54.015 --> 01:12:56.596
It's kind of interesting to

01:12:56.617 --> 01:12:58.256
see incentives being

01:12:58.297 --> 01:12:59.217
designed in such a way that

01:12:59.698 --> 01:13:00.997
it is about crash fault

01:13:01.037 --> 01:13:03.559
tolerance and it's a public

01:13:03.599 --> 01:13:04.619
permissionless blockchain,

01:13:04.640 --> 01:13:08.581
but actually under the hood,

01:13:09.180 --> 01:13:10.542
from an operational standpoint,

01:13:10.641 --> 01:13:11.761
it's treated like a

01:13:11.862 --> 01:13:12.862
consortium blockchain.

01:13:16.104 --> 01:13:16.845
And that's like,

01:13:16.966 --> 01:13:18.707
it kind of comes back to the like, well,

01:13:19.009 --> 01:13:21.372
are Cosmos blockchains

01:13:21.631 --> 01:13:22.814
functionally consortium

01:13:22.854 --> 01:13:24.976
blockchains if the top five

01:13:25.016 --> 01:13:27.862
validators are Cosmos Station, SG1,

01:13:28.743 --> 01:13:29.423
you know, whatever, like...

01:13:30.225 --> 01:13:31.726
kind of is a consortium blockchain,

01:13:31.787 --> 01:13:32.426
actually, isn't it?

01:13:32.948 --> 01:13:34.349
It's all about measures of

01:13:34.389 --> 01:13:35.369
decentralization.

01:13:35.810 --> 01:13:36.631
You kind of always end up

01:13:36.671 --> 01:13:37.672
back on the same subjects.

01:13:37.693 --> 01:13:40.194
The way that your protocol is designed,

01:13:40.215 --> 01:13:40.735
it's kind of

01:13:47.734 --> 01:13:48.895
it's just this balancing act

01:13:48.914 --> 01:13:49.796
between that and the actual

01:13:49.836 --> 01:13:51.096
incentive design mechanism

01:13:51.136 --> 01:13:52.537
when you have the economic

01:13:52.578 --> 01:13:53.759
finality in mind, I suppose.

01:13:53.979 --> 01:13:54.819
Like I said, there's no big,

01:13:55.340 --> 01:13:57.221
there's no big like aha moment from this,

01:13:57.301 --> 01:13:58.061
just like, you know,

01:13:58.082 --> 01:13:59.844
this is the stuff that I'm

01:13:59.863 --> 01:14:00.444
into right now.

01:14:00.503 --> 01:14:01.345
And I'm just like, man,

01:14:02.206 --> 01:14:03.286
really interesting to see,

01:14:03.305 --> 01:14:06.149
to see that trade off between CFT and BFT,

01:14:06.168 --> 01:14:06.509
I guess.

01:14:10.792 --> 01:14:11.212
Doesn't matter.

01:14:12.274 --> 01:14:12.493
Yeah.

01:14:13.434 --> 01:14:13.994
No use cases.

01:14:15.935 --> 01:14:16.795
doesn't matter if we're in

01:14:16.814 --> 01:14:17.756
crypto winter again who

01:14:18.256 --> 01:14:22.177
cares like uh I don't know

01:14:22.198 --> 01:14:23.137
why why is everything pump

01:14:23.438 --> 01:14:24.939
not pumping let me rephrase

01:14:24.958 --> 01:14:25.498
that word why did

01:14:25.519 --> 01:14:26.319
everything bump up a little

01:14:26.338 --> 01:14:28.920
bit last couple days I

01:14:28.979 --> 01:14:30.661
think uh hasn't uh the

01:14:30.701 --> 01:14:31.980
german government finished

01:14:32.101 --> 01:14:34.362
selling up all their crypto

01:14:35.382 --> 01:14:36.882
oh but it wasn't the german

01:14:36.922 --> 01:14:37.524
government right there's

01:14:37.543 --> 01:14:38.264
not a misconception

01:14:40.167 --> 01:14:40.528
Well,

01:14:40.587 --> 01:14:42.788
someone was selling a lot and they're

01:14:42.809 --> 01:14:43.429
done apparently.

01:14:43.889 --> 01:14:45.588
They were done selling Bitcoin.

01:14:45.609 --> 01:14:46.088
Is that what it was?

01:14:47.850 --> 01:14:50.369
Yeah, there was just a couple of entities.

01:14:50.529 --> 01:14:54.011
Well, so there is,

01:14:54.871 --> 01:14:55.911
I thought it was the German government,

01:14:55.930 --> 01:14:56.612
but whoever it was,

01:14:56.671 --> 01:14:59.912
was selling off some seized Bitcoin.

01:15:00.212 --> 01:15:03.033
And then there was also the Mt.

01:15:03.073 --> 01:15:04.632
Gox refunds going out.

01:15:05.393 --> 01:15:06.694
So, you know, yeah.

01:15:07.434 --> 01:15:07.634
Yeah.

01:15:09.190 --> 01:15:09.650
Yeah, the Mt.

01:15:09.671 --> 01:15:10.350
Gox refunds,

01:15:10.371 --> 01:15:11.912
which are like hundreds of

01:15:11.952 --> 01:15:13.792
percents more than the

01:15:14.012 --> 01:15:15.932
amounts that were stolen.

01:15:15.972 --> 01:15:17.453
So, nice.

01:15:17.474 --> 01:15:21.055
It's like the FTX too, right?

01:15:21.114 --> 01:15:23.416
They're like, yeah, you all got ripped off,

01:15:23.456 --> 01:15:25.195
but we're giving you 140% back now.

01:15:25.936 --> 01:15:26.537
Thanks, NVIDIA.

01:15:31.658 --> 01:15:32.578
Thanks, NVIDIA.

01:15:33.578 --> 01:15:35.340
Thanks, NVIDIA.

01:15:35.359 --> 01:15:36.380
I'm clicking around here

01:15:36.439 --> 01:15:37.761
trying to see what's...

01:15:39.860 --> 01:15:41.261
purchased some some hard

01:15:41.282 --> 01:15:43.583
drives from a new vendor um

01:15:44.645 --> 01:15:46.567
and I'm like have I been

01:15:46.627 --> 01:15:51.150
scammed or not yeah yeah

01:15:51.171 --> 01:15:55.534
it's like oh no um oh okay

01:15:55.635 --> 01:15:58.396
it's sds so these are uh

01:15:59.438 --> 01:16:03.641
these are opened and used

01:16:05.063 --> 01:16:06.804
but like their, their demos,

01:16:06.844 --> 01:16:08.164
their demo drives.

01:16:08.564 --> 01:16:09.586
Oh yeah.

01:16:09.605 --> 01:16:10.506
So, you know,

01:16:10.666 --> 01:16:12.627
they've been like on for a

01:16:12.667 --> 01:16:15.109
day in a Google cloud data

01:16:15.128 --> 01:16:19.671
center and they come with, yeah.

01:16:19.992 --> 01:16:20.712
Well, I don't, you know,

01:16:20.752 --> 01:16:22.092
who knows that they come with a,

01:16:22.233 --> 01:16:23.073
you can only do so much

01:16:23.113 --> 01:16:24.453
damage in a short period of time,

01:16:24.993 --> 01:16:25.694
but you know,

01:16:25.715 --> 01:16:26.734
Google's the type of people

01:16:27.015 --> 01:16:27.716
that plug them in.

01:16:27.935 --> 01:16:30.277
They would like click around

01:16:30.337 --> 01:16:32.158
and do a test and then be like, yeah,

01:16:32.177 --> 01:16:32.519
that's cool.

01:16:32.838 --> 01:16:33.279
Chuck them back.

01:16:34.180 --> 01:16:34.600
But, um,

01:16:35.993 --> 01:16:37.434
I was hesitant because they

01:16:37.474 --> 01:16:39.935
come with a three-year

01:16:39.975 --> 01:16:42.078
warranty instead of a five-year warranty,

01:16:42.877 --> 01:16:44.179
but they are also

01:16:44.759 --> 01:16:46.381
substantially cheaper than

01:16:46.921 --> 01:16:48.601
the market rate at the moment.

01:16:48.622 --> 01:16:52.645
And I all of a sudden had a need for some,

01:16:53.605 --> 01:16:55.006
thanks to a mutual friend

01:16:55.067 --> 01:16:57.429
wanting some access to archives.

01:16:57.708 --> 01:17:00.911
So, yeah, anyway,

01:17:00.970 --> 01:17:01.931
I pulled the trigger on them.

01:17:02.032 --> 01:17:02.693
We'll see what happens.

01:17:03.052 --> 01:17:04.394
They're apparently here tomorrow, so...

01:17:06.774 --> 01:17:09.395
nice yeah another 60

01:17:09.395 --> 01:17:11.475
terabyte of nvme for the

01:17:11.956 --> 01:17:15.657
big dog jesus yeah are you

01:17:15.697 --> 01:17:16.877
moving that thing did you

01:17:16.898 --> 01:17:17.578
move that thing to brisbane

01:17:17.597 --> 01:17:18.238
are you are you going to

01:17:18.278 --> 01:17:20.719
move it up there you're

01:17:20.738 --> 01:17:21.578
gonna have to because

01:17:21.599 --> 01:17:22.338
you're gonna have to

01:17:22.378 --> 01:17:23.099
otherwise you're gonna be

01:17:23.378 --> 01:17:24.539
yeah you'll be driving 14

01:17:24.539 --> 01:17:27.000
hours ago that won't be

01:17:27.020 --> 01:17:30.940
driving it's uh it's a 400

01:17:30.940 --> 01:17:33.721
return trip from brisbane you can uh

01:17:34.389 --> 01:17:35.128
ripped down there in the

01:17:35.168 --> 01:17:36.270
morning and then ripped

01:17:36.289 --> 01:17:37.489
back in the afternoon so

01:17:37.510 --> 01:17:38.750
yeah it's also bad you

01:17:38.770 --> 01:17:39.750
catch the seven o'clock in

01:17:39.770 --> 01:17:40.751
the morning and get back at

01:17:40.791 --> 01:17:46.051
like 8 p.m still and um

01:17:46.271 --> 01:17:48.533
bring shit you want the you

01:17:48.552 --> 01:17:49.412
know all that stuff right

01:17:49.472 --> 01:17:50.393
it's a pain in the ass you

01:17:50.412 --> 01:17:52.154
don't do that yeah they got

01:17:52.194 --> 01:17:54.194
remote hands as well so um

01:17:54.253 --> 01:17:55.935
they're they're okay the

01:17:56.342 --> 01:17:58.123
that so the remote hands

01:17:58.163 --> 01:17:59.404
that did my work last time

01:17:59.423 --> 01:18:01.845
um I had him install the

01:18:01.865 --> 01:18:03.485
server the dude did it in

01:18:03.525 --> 01:18:06.266
like 10 minutes he was

01:18:06.307 --> 01:18:08.467
doing pretty well yeah they

01:18:08.488 --> 01:18:09.288
charged me fuck all for

01:18:09.309 --> 01:18:10.750
that it was pretty good um

01:18:10.789 --> 01:18:11.590
so I was quite impressed

01:18:11.609 --> 01:18:12.909
with that maybe just the

01:18:12.951 --> 01:18:14.030
next one you build just put

01:18:14.051 --> 01:18:14.631
it in brisbane and then

01:18:14.650 --> 01:18:15.891
eventually migrate shit and

01:18:15.912 --> 01:18:16.971
move it over or do whatever

01:18:17.932 --> 01:18:19.052
well I think I'm gonna have

01:18:19.092 --> 01:18:20.514
to build another one

01:18:21.944 --> 01:18:24.945
and then transfer the backup server.

01:18:26.567 --> 01:18:28.108
There's always another one.

01:18:29.029 --> 01:18:29.248
Yeah,

01:18:29.269 --> 01:18:30.909
I have to build another big dog server,

01:18:31.211 --> 01:18:32.511
but then I'll charge the spinner.

01:18:33.192 --> 01:18:36.154
I'll send the spinner backup server,

01:18:36.194 --> 01:18:37.814
the NAS,

01:18:39.235 --> 01:18:41.778
and then I can restore all the

01:18:41.837 --> 01:18:42.859
archives from the NAS,

01:18:44.179 --> 01:18:45.980
spin them back up up there, sync them up,

01:18:46.820 --> 01:18:48.903
and then retire the one down there.

01:18:49.002 --> 01:18:49.203
Yeah.

01:18:50.546 --> 01:18:51.746
yeah quite the process

01:18:52.266 --> 01:18:55.146
expensive but um save a lot

01:18:55.167 --> 01:18:56.887
of pissing around I might

01:18:56.927 --> 01:18:59.068
even keep one down there uh

01:18:59.828 --> 01:19:02.689
you know for yeah some sort

01:19:02.708 --> 01:19:03.350
of upside thing or

01:19:03.390 --> 01:19:04.369
something yeah it's not a

01:19:04.390 --> 01:19:05.970
bad idea yeah yeah put

01:19:05.989 --> 01:19:06.850
effort into a new one and

01:19:06.890 --> 01:19:07.751
then just turn that one

01:19:07.810 --> 01:19:09.850
into fuck all whatever

01:19:10.051 --> 01:19:10.891
right like something just

01:19:10.912 --> 01:19:13.573
to dump files yeah or the

01:19:13.752 --> 01:19:15.212
to mirror to or whatever else

01:19:16.307 --> 01:19:17.309
I think I don't need to go

01:19:17.349 --> 01:19:18.750
so hard on the new one.

01:19:18.770 --> 01:19:20.310
I've got way too much compute.

01:19:20.711 --> 01:19:21.371
That is for sure.

01:19:21.831 --> 01:19:22.412
Way too much.

01:19:23.091 --> 01:19:24.813
So it could probably go...

01:19:24.832 --> 01:19:26.493
It could probably even go

01:19:26.533 --> 01:19:27.454
down a generation,

01:19:27.795 --> 01:19:29.676
like back to the 7000

01:19:29.676 --> 01:19:30.856
series Epic instead of the 9000,

01:19:30.856 --> 01:19:32.518
which would make things a bit cheaper.

01:19:33.958 --> 01:19:34.118
Yeah.

01:19:34.859 --> 01:19:35.319
Yeah, it's a good idea.

01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:36.420
It doesn't matter how many

01:19:36.460 --> 01:19:37.900
fucking drive bays.

01:19:40.063 --> 01:19:41.143
Yeah, man.

01:19:41.162 --> 01:19:42.663
24 NVMEs is all you need.

01:19:43.704 --> 01:19:44.625
The two of those stacked.

01:19:44.645 --> 01:19:44.664
48s.

01:19:46.550 --> 01:19:46.949
Yeah,

01:19:47.010 --> 01:19:48.270
the one that's down there at the moment,

01:19:48.350 --> 01:19:50.512
it's the one with archives.

01:19:50.972 --> 01:19:52.873
It's got 12 bays of NVMe.

01:19:55.975 --> 01:19:56.336
It might have 15.

01:19:56.435 --> 01:19:58.438
I think it might have 15, actually.

01:19:59.738 --> 01:20:01.118
But it's a good amount.

01:20:01.500 --> 01:20:03.360
And I think that same brand,

01:20:03.440 --> 01:20:06.603
their 2U chassis has like 26.

01:20:06.603 --> 01:20:06.783
20 or 24?

01:20:06.823 --> 01:20:07.382
No, it's either 26 or 28.

01:20:07.863 --> 01:20:08.024
Okay.

01:20:15.051 --> 01:20:15.671
it's a fair few.

01:20:16.011 --> 01:20:16.233
Yeah.

01:20:16.273 --> 01:20:18.375
Mud's like, I think he's frothing on the,

01:20:18.636 --> 01:20:19.636
on the stowage over here.

01:20:20.938 --> 01:20:23.601
Um, it's like 60 terabyte.

01:20:23.641 --> 01:20:24.141
Holy smokes.

01:20:24.202 --> 01:20:24.323
Yeah.

01:20:24.342 --> 01:20:26.324
I already have multiples of that already.

01:20:26.425 --> 01:20:28.828
So, um, it goes fast,

01:20:29.389 --> 01:20:30.550
especially when you're, you know,

01:20:31.251 --> 01:20:32.292
taking snapshots of shit

01:20:32.332 --> 01:20:33.113
and doing all this kind of

01:20:33.134 --> 01:20:33.914
stuff and everything else.

01:20:33.975 --> 01:20:34.095
But,

01:20:35.423 --> 01:20:36.645
Yeah, well, I mean,

01:20:37.706 --> 01:20:38.987
that server runs our say

01:20:39.127 --> 01:20:40.768
archive and it's after a year,

01:20:40.768 --> 01:20:42.350
24 terabytes.

01:20:44.211 --> 01:20:46.512
And then you take a snapshot

01:20:46.533 --> 01:20:47.913
of that and then it's 48

01:20:47.913 --> 01:20:50.536
terabytes and it increases

01:20:50.576 --> 01:20:54.139
by two terabytes a month.

01:20:55.279 --> 01:20:57.221
So the problem we have over

01:20:57.261 --> 01:20:58.443
there is that they're still

01:20:58.542 --> 01:20:59.503
on the old DB.

01:20:59.543 --> 01:21:03.127
They're on, you know, before they...

01:21:03.890 --> 01:21:05.492
they changed over to say db

01:21:06.092 --> 01:21:07.734
and so all of that new data

01:21:07.793 --> 01:21:09.375
is coming in the old way

01:21:09.715 --> 01:21:11.076
that just gets stored and

01:21:11.115 --> 01:21:12.837
stored and stored instead

01:21:12.858 --> 01:21:14.219
of the new say db which is

01:21:14.418 --> 01:21:17.341
way more efficient so we're

01:21:17.381 --> 01:21:19.021
hoping that eventually they

01:21:19.061 --> 01:21:20.684
get the dev time to be able

01:21:20.703 --> 01:21:26.148
to build a basically an app that will

01:21:29.000 --> 01:21:30.501
So there's two ways I

01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:31.301
believe they can do it.

01:21:31.320 --> 01:21:33.301
They can have another

01:21:33.360 --> 01:21:34.702
application which will

01:21:35.462 --> 01:21:37.802
transform the database into a, say,

01:21:37.842 --> 01:21:39.483
DB compatible situation,

01:21:41.564 --> 01:21:43.204
in which case we'd probably

01:21:43.244 --> 01:21:46.085
have to keep the old DB

01:21:46.246 --> 01:21:51.747
anyway just as a file in

01:21:51.846 --> 01:21:53.627
case they have an issue with...

01:21:54.932 --> 01:21:56.676
uh later on maybe something

01:21:56.695 --> 01:21:57.737
didn't transfer over

01:21:57.777 --> 01:21:58.478
properly it might have to

01:21:58.518 --> 01:22:02.583
be redone um so there's

01:22:02.604 --> 01:22:03.784
that option or the other

01:22:03.886 --> 01:22:08.412
option is to go back and um

01:22:10.333 --> 01:22:11.376
what would it like uh

01:22:13.694 --> 01:22:15.136
update all of the original

01:22:15.256 --> 01:22:18.197
apps along the way with the

01:22:18.237 --> 01:22:20.618
code yeah it'll never

01:22:20.658 --> 01:22:22.658
happen and then re-sync

01:22:23.158 --> 01:22:25.399
yeah all the way I mean the

01:22:25.418 --> 01:22:26.079
other thing the other thing

01:22:26.119 --> 01:22:27.960
I would I mean honestly

01:22:27.979 --> 01:22:29.740
what what I would probably

01:22:30.161 --> 01:22:32.962
say is to because cdb came

01:22:33.002 --> 01:22:35.342
across before the evm thing right

01:22:36.911 --> 01:22:38.712
I would let the current one run as is,

01:22:38.931 --> 01:22:40.472
and you're going to have

01:22:40.573 --> 01:22:41.734
less and less customers who

01:22:41.793 --> 01:22:43.534
give a shit about anything pre-EVM.

01:22:44.654 --> 01:22:46.095
And I would think most of

01:22:46.155 --> 01:22:46.975
the requests that you're

01:22:46.996 --> 01:22:48.237
going to get are going to

01:22:48.256 --> 01:22:49.717
be from EVM block one,

01:22:50.238 --> 01:22:50.818
which I forget what that

01:22:50.858 --> 01:22:51.599
block one number was.

01:22:52.238 --> 01:22:53.859
And if you had a CDB node

01:22:54.199 --> 01:22:55.520
that had everything from

01:22:55.621 --> 01:22:57.601
that block height forward

01:22:57.902 --> 01:22:59.042
and actually had an export

01:22:59.063 --> 01:22:59.743
at that block height,

01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:02.621
and creating the new genesis

01:23:02.661 --> 01:23:03.280
at that block height and

01:23:03.301 --> 01:23:04.320
then synced from that,

01:23:04.581 --> 01:23:05.381
that would probably handle

01:23:05.381 --> 01:23:06.962
99% of the requests you're going to get.

01:23:07.502 --> 01:23:08.622
And then you can let the

01:23:08.761 --> 01:23:09.783
existing one grow.

01:23:09.802 --> 01:23:10.502
And at some point,

01:23:11.082 --> 01:23:14.604
I would think that you

01:23:15.144 --> 01:23:16.404
could probably end up

01:23:16.444 --> 01:23:17.505
turning it off and archiving it.

01:23:18.085 --> 01:23:18.965
You know what I mean?

01:23:19.925 --> 01:23:21.426
So I'll tell you something

01:23:21.466 --> 01:23:23.905
that you can't do at the moment,

01:23:24.145 --> 01:23:25.747
and that is state export.

01:23:27.067 --> 01:23:27.386
Of what?

01:23:28.167 --> 01:23:28.667
On say.

01:23:28.908 --> 01:23:29.547
You just can't do it.

01:23:30.372 --> 01:23:31.413
Oh, you can't do a state export?

01:23:32.833 --> 01:23:34.375
Well, every time I've tried,

01:23:34.454 --> 01:23:35.615
it dies in the hours.

01:23:36.636 --> 01:23:37.936
Is that a RAM issue?

01:23:37.957 --> 01:23:40.177
Does it just run out of the memories?

01:23:41.398 --> 01:23:42.279
It's not OOM.

01:23:42.779 --> 01:23:44.220
It just dies.

01:23:44.399 --> 01:23:45.500
It says no?

01:23:45.780 --> 01:23:45.860
Oh,

01:23:45.900 --> 01:23:47.020
that would have to be something that

01:23:47.060 --> 01:23:47.520
would be solved.

01:23:47.541 --> 01:23:48.742
Because I think otherwise

01:23:48.822 --> 01:23:50.143
you're kind of screwed, right?

01:23:50.162 --> 01:23:50.342
Because

01:23:51.222 --> 01:23:53.064
You'd have to find a way to.

01:23:53.564 --> 01:23:54.725
Could it be file handlers?

01:23:55.706 --> 01:23:58.667
Because it's creating a shit ton.

01:23:59.307 --> 01:24:01.328
I don't know how much it's serious.

01:24:01.770 --> 01:24:04.110
I assume it's serial, probably.

01:24:06.693 --> 01:24:08.774
So maybe it wouldn't

01:24:08.793 --> 01:24:10.095
actually open that many file handlers.

01:24:10.175 --> 01:24:10.515
I don't know.

01:24:12.617 --> 01:24:14.438
This server can handle a lot.

01:24:14.518 --> 01:24:17.180
It's got a terabyte of DDR5 baby.

01:24:18.159 --> 01:24:20.782
So that's a fair bit to fill up.

01:24:23.130 --> 01:24:25.131
And it's got unlimited file handlers.

01:24:25.150 --> 01:24:28.493
But I don't know.

01:24:28.613 --> 01:24:29.914
I've tried it a couple of times,

01:24:29.975 --> 01:24:31.136
tried it on multiple servers.

01:24:31.195 --> 01:24:32.096
I just can't.

01:24:35.125 --> 01:24:36.086
That seems like that would be worthwhile.

01:24:36.126 --> 01:24:37.207
I mean, realistically, do you,

01:24:37.688 --> 01:24:38.427
do you really need to say

01:24:38.467 --> 01:24:40.490
DB export from block one on that network?

01:24:40.530 --> 01:24:42.912
And I would think who gives a shit, right?

01:24:42.953 --> 01:24:44.395
Like, cause there's kind of two,

01:24:44.494 --> 01:24:45.595
it's really two networks here.

01:24:45.775 --> 01:24:46.516
There's a network that

01:24:46.796 --> 01:24:47.698
exists and it's still, I mean,

01:24:47.717 --> 01:24:48.798
it's still going, don't get me wrong,

01:24:48.838 --> 01:24:50.220
but then I think most

01:24:50.280 --> 01:24:51.082
requests are going to get it from,

01:24:51.261 --> 01:24:52.162
from EVM block one,

01:24:52.283 --> 01:24:53.564
which is whatever that was

01:24:53.623 --> 01:24:54.364
six months ago already.

01:24:55.471 --> 01:24:56.011
Four months ago?

01:24:56.152 --> 01:24:56.572
Yeah, I mean,

01:24:57.011 --> 01:24:58.493
I can stop it and just run it

01:24:58.573 --> 01:24:59.752
as a secondary anyway.

01:25:00.012 --> 01:25:00.993
We're just not seeking.

01:25:01.613 --> 01:25:01.993
Sure.

01:25:05.814 --> 01:25:11.996
I wish I had a snapshot of that from the,

01:25:13.235 --> 01:25:13.935
what are we calling it?

01:25:14.737 --> 01:25:16.997
EVM block zero.

01:25:18.117 --> 01:25:19.057
Yeah.

01:25:20.858 --> 01:25:21.978
So I'm just checking.

01:25:21.997 --> 01:25:25.019
I believe that I did get

01:25:26.372 --> 01:25:38.195
um uh so I have a um so

01:25:38.315 --> 01:25:39.657
rama's asking in the chat

01:25:39.837 --> 01:25:40.957
are we going to ignore the

01:25:40.997 --> 01:25:43.297
biggest drama of the week with sale dow

01:25:44.430 --> 01:25:46.552
which was not only commented

01:25:46.712 --> 01:25:49.435
on by the news reviewer of this post,

01:25:49.515 --> 01:25:51.457
but arguably was created by

01:25:51.516 --> 01:25:54.960
the news researcher of this podcast.

01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:55.761
Like once again,

01:25:55.820 --> 01:25:57.162
Rama is creating the drama

01:25:57.202 --> 01:25:58.962
in the cosmos and reporting on it.

01:25:59.823 --> 01:26:01.305
like that's true he out

01:26:01.345 --> 01:26:02.805
there working and no one

01:26:02.826 --> 01:26:04.287
wants to talk about mvmes

01:26:04.327 --> 01:26:07.368
which you know just that's

01:26:07.408 --> 01:26:10.010
true this proposal is a

01:26:10.050 --> 01:26:11.291
continuation of my post of

01:26:11.310 --> 01:26:12.752
this post by rama that's

01:26:12.771 --> 01:26:14.011
the first thing he says

01:26:15.472 --> 01:26:18.574
yeah so I don't know what I

01:26:18.635 --> 01:26:21.055
was trying to say is yeah I

01:26:21.275 --> 01:26:22.377
i have a snapshot from

01:26:22.697 --> 01:26:24.637
around about where evm

01:26:24.658 --> 01:26:25.939
started but not of the

01:26:25.998 --> 01:26:26.960
archive I've just got like

01:26:27.020 --> 01:26:28.980
a node snapshot so oh okay

01:26:30.063 --> 01:26:32.323
Yeah, I don't need to do a state export.

01:26:35.564 --> 01:26:36.506
I don't even know what the

01:26:36.565 --> 01:26:37.485
fuck SaleDAO is.

01:26:37.966 --> 01:26:40.646
I don't either.

01:26:41.707 --> 01:26:44.128
Yeah, no idea.

01:26:44.149 --> 01:26:46.409
I don't know.

01:26:46.449 --> 01:26:48.430
It's probably too late in

01:26:48.451 --> 01:26:50.051
the episode to start

01:26:50.150 --> 01:26:51.011
looking it up either.

01:26:52.532 --> 01:26:53.332
It is some sort of pissing

01:26:53.372 --> 01:26:54.893
match between Rabo, Macabo,

01:26:54.953 --> 01:26:56.533
and Sencom from...

01:26:58.314 --> 01:26:59.074
from white whale right I

01:26:59.154 --> 01:27:00.114
mean that's basically what

01:27:00.175 --> 01:27:03.117
it is yeah it's well it's

01:27:03.176 --> 01:27:06.119
yeah yeah it's basically

01:27:06.159 --> 01:27:08.041
that thing of where they

01:27:08.201 --> 01:27:11.483
borrowed against whale on

01:27:11.603 --> 01:27:12.724
kajira and then got

01:27:12.783 --> 01:27:14.265
liquidated and then it just

01:27:14.305 --> 01:27:16.127
fucked everything up but

01:27:16.587 --> 01:27:17.648
the other interesting thing

01:27:17.688 --> 01:27:19.429
is that the the doubt so

01:27:19.448 --> 01:27:20.128
the doubt itself is

01:27:20.168 --> 01:27:23.891
managing lp pools I think and then the um

01:27:27.045 --> 01:27:28.765
I think the two admins are

01:27:30.006 --> 01:27:32.266
the Migaloo lot and Osmosis

01:27:32.306 --> 01:27:34.067
and Osmosis doesn't vote their shares.

01:27:34.146 --> 01:27:34.907
So a two,

01:27:34.947 --> 01:27:37.047
two multi-sig is essentially a one,

01:27:37.188 --> 01:27:41.748
one multi-sig, which is not great.

01:27:42.429 --> 01:27:44.170
I guess that's amongst other things,

01:27:44.369 --> 01:27:47.110
but yeah,

01:27:48.451 --> 01:27:49.731
a lot of people got wrecked by

01:27:49.771 --> 01:27:51.252
the whale Osmo pool.

01:27:51.271 --> 01:27:51.692
Didn't they?

01:27:52.351 --> 01:27:54.653
So when that liquidation happened,

01:27:57.613 --> 01:27:59.858
So I guess it's just start continuing.

01:28:00.738 --> 01:28:02.282
Like, cause yeah.