WEBVTT

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They're not there.

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So I don't know.

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You see like an account,

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you see that it's same

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folder where your validated key pair is?

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Yeah.

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Is that what you're talking about?

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Yeah.

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Oh, actually, hang on.

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I'm not talking,

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I'm not talking about log.

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I'm talking in the Solana folder.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Actually, it just reminded me of this,

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like a script that actually starts it up.

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Mm-hmm.

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There's a script that starts it up?

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Oh, systemd?

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Oh no, you're running like a,

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you janky systemd.

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yeah it's in a separate log

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folder yeah got it

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Welcome to Game of Nodes,

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the working while you're on

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a stream podcast, hosted, and whatever,

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whatever,

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a weekly podcast from

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independent validator teams.

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Anyway.

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We are.

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We've got Null back.

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We switched shortly for Null.

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We traded in one model, no comment,

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for another model.

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An older model.

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Heyo, I'm back, baby.

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The Australian-ness has

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increased significantly.

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Well, I guess by definition, 100%.

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100%.

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We had at least one viewer

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ask for proof of life.

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It had been some time.

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And apologies to my one

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viewer who feared for my well-being.

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Thank you, by the way.

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No one else gave a fuck.

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I didn't receive one email.

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Hey, man.

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Just checking in.

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i think it's kind of funny

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that it's not that you know

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the bear market you were

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you were here representing

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it was just like finally

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yeah what is it what's the

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deal you know I think um

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it's two things one uh I

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needed a little break from

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the gone I think just the

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week after week for like a year and a bit

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um I think caught up with me

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a little bit it's been a

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little bit longer than that

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my guy well yeah I don't

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know a year and whatever it

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is but I think it caught up

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with me a little bit on top

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of that um I just had a

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series of circumstances

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where basically every

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fucking time that gone was

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on I was on an airplane so

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um that wasn't my planning

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that was my partner's

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planning so blame her

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I'm not going to blame her.

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There's no blame here.

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This isn't blame of nodes.

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I just come up with these on the spot,

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you know.

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It's incredible, isn't it?

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It has been a while.

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However, I did enjoy the break.

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Three episodes I missed.

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I apologize.

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I had a great sleep on the plane.

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The last time you were here,

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that plant behind you was just a seed.

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yeah actually I'm uh I'm in

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the process of packing up

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the yeah yeah you're

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getting out right yeah

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you're finally leaving your

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parents basement in this

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particular basement um in

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there right just validate

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coins for three and a half

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years and you can finally

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leave your parents basement

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will be moving into my own

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basement with uh mine and

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my partner well my partner

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and i's basement I believe

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is the correct english way

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to say it and uh you know I

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the the the new one is it's

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got some good internet and um

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It's got good internet and

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area for a rack.

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So I'm going to be home

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labbing a little bit,

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having some fun with some

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bits and pieces on the company dime.

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And yeah, it should be good.

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Keep that noise away from the living room.

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Yeah.

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You're going to run a

00:04:10.046 --> 00:04:11.447
validator out of the house?

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Well, I mean, yeah.

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ETH is in the spirit of home.

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It is.

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Validators.

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You could run a Horcrux node

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from your home lab.

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You could.

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Yeah, but I won't.

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Yeah, you're still DJing Horcrux anyway,

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aren't you?

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Yes.

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Thanks for that.

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I try to keep that under my hood.

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Yeah, no, DJing all the way.

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I invented DJing, so I have to... You did.

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You have to represent...

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um tm tm tm if all if all my

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degenning in crypto comes

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down to one thing is that I

00:04:56.685 --> 00:04:58.665
coined the term degen

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horcrux everybody knows

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that strange love team

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knows that term they all

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know it yeah they made

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horcrux I think to be fair

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I think also some of your

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documentation for juno

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was ripped off by a thousand chains.

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Just like,

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just like I see my documentation

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everywhere in the cosmos now,

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like literally word for word,

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my tone of voice.

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I'm like, did I write this?

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Did I fucking write this?

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I feel like I might've

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written this three years ago.

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I think up until recently.

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And to be fair,

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you and I both wrote those docs for Juno.

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We like tag teamed on that a bit.

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I think you didn't like

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stuff that I wrote and I

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didn't like stuff that you wrote.

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So we duly changed it back and forth.

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um please challenge right

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but uh now that um comet

00:05:49.211 --> 00:05:50.892
bft is becoming more

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prolific than tendermint

00:05:53.216 --> 00:05:55.559
around the jay chains they

00:05:55.619 --> 00:05:56.720
have a different way of

00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:57.701
doing some things so

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documentation has changed

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and is somewhat lacking

00:06:02.863 --> 00:06:04.704
around the place very

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simple um copy pasta rather

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than any kind of

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explanation or notes which

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is you know but but I

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didn't do it like they used

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to they don't but in the

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defense of that I have seen

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teams recently maybe not this year

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but within the last year

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that I've seen

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documentation and then like

00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:26.800
in that documentation,

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it'll have like the word

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Juno D in there because

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they just literally copied

00:06:31.045 --> 00:06:32.165
pasted the whole fucking thing.

00:06:32.206 --> 00:06:33.947
Like they just took the

00:06:33.966 --> 00:06:34.908
whole repo and copied it

00:06:34.927 --> 00:06:35.947
and did like a final replace,

00:06:35.987 --> 00:06:36.728
but something missed.

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And you'll see like a Juno D

00:06:38.711 --> 00:06:39.230
in there where it's

00:06:39.290 --> 00:06:40.252
supposed to be another binary.

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So there's still, it's still happening.

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ah yes the old copy pasta

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you really know someone is

00:06:48.377 --> 00:06:49.617
low budget chain when they

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just copy past during

00:06:51.218 --> 00:06:52.620
documentation like not

00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:55.721
checking it yeah yeah I

00:06:55.742 --> 00:06:56.422
mean we're all standing on

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the shoulders of giants

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after all you know uh jorge

00:06:59.163 --> 00:07:01.324
from stargaze those early

00:07:01.384 --> 00:07:03.225
test nets were taught us

00:07:03.266 --> 00:07:04.665
everything we everything we

00:07:04.725 --> 00:07:06.987
knew about validating coins

00:07:07.208 --> 00:07:09.209
and then gave us the tools

00:07:09.269 --> 00:07:11.110
we needed to write uh to

00:07:11.149 --> 00:07:12.891
write our own documentation

00:07:13.615 --> 00:07:14.735
which probably took heavy

00:07:14.795 --> 00:07:16.117
inspiration from Jorge's

00:07:16.156 --> 00:07:17.557
testnet documentation.

00:07:17.637 --> 00:07:19.259
So it swings and roundabouts, right?

00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:21.600
You know, is that right?

00:07:22.581 --> 00:07:23.901
Was Stargaze first?

00:07:23.942 --> 00:07:24.762
I thought Juno was first.

00:07:25.423 --> 00:07:27.745
No, Stargaze was first,

00:07:28.084 --> 00:07:31.526
but what happened was you had to,

00:07:31.627 --> 00:07:33.048
they said they had like a

00:07:33.088 --> 00:07:34.848
list of things like do a

00:07:34.928 --> 00:07:37.190
thing in the early testnets,

00:07:37.211 --> 00:07:40.052
like as an operator, figure out how to,

00:07:42.221 --> 00:07:45.744
unsteak, unbond your validator,

00:07:45.944 --> 00:07:47.504
jail and unjail your validator,

00:07:47.564 --> 00:07:48.904
shit like that.

00:07:49.045 --> 00:07:51.607
And a lot of the early docs

00:07:51.646 --> 00:07:54.007
in the Cosmos space were

00:07:55.208 --> 00:07:59.050
a combination of node operators notes.

00:07:59.930 --> 00:08:01.012
It felt like anyway,

00:08:01.172 --> 00:08:03.113
doing things like the

00:08:03.153 --> 00:08:05.475
stargaze test nets or the

00:08:05.514 --> 00:08:07.396
game of chain or the game of chains,

00:08:07.476 --> 00:08:08.237
game mistakes,

00:08:08.577 --> 00:08:10.899
game mistakes on cosmos hub,

00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:11.800
because there were like a

00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:12.940
few of these things weren't

00:08:12.961 --> 00:08:13.761
there where they were like

00:08:14.362 --> 00:08:15.262
sort of challenges for

00:08:15.302 --> 00:08:16.502
validators to figure out

00:08:16.543 --> 00:08:18.264
how to do stuff that was relatively new.

00:08:19.485 --> 00:08:20.865
and people made their own

00:08:20.925 --> 00:08:22.206
docs and then teams also

00:08:22.266 --> 00:08:23.869
published answers which was

00:08:24.028 --> 00:08:25.370
sort of like docs but like

00:08:25.550 --> 00:08:26.391
oh you need to do this come

00:08:26.430 --> 00:08:27.151
on then this come on this

00:08:27.170 --> 00:08:28.351
come on I like the

00:08:28.992 --> 00:08:30.754
combination of those two

00:08:30.853 --> 00:08:32.235
things it felt like was

00:08:32.294 --> 00:08:34.196
quite a lot of the like any

00:08:34.417 --> 00:08:35.616
actual documentation you

00:08:35.657 --> 00:08:36.798
saw anywhere was like a

00:08:36.857 --> 00:08:38.620
combination of like maybe

00:08:38.659 --> 00:08:39.961
there's two sorts of things

00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:41.381
like wrapped up in a blog

00:08:41.461 --> 00:08:42.842
post almost like it wasn't

00:08:43.792 --> 00:08:47.955
it wasn't mad, um, official for a while,

00:08:48.134 --> 00:08:50.756
but, um, but yeah,

00:08:50.797 --> 00:08:53.239
I think Juno might've got to market first,

00:08:53.318 --> 00:08:55.100
but stargaze was test nets

00:08:55.140 --> 00:08:56.241
before Juno for sure.

00:08:56.682 --> 00:08:57.241
Yeah.

00:08:57.842 --> 00:08:58.744
Like, like months,

00:08:58.764 --> 00:08:59.604
months before we're talking

00:08:59.624 --> 00:09:02.385
like first stargaze test.

00:09:02.405 --> 00:09:07.370
Now I think it was February 21, 21,

00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:08.390
very long time ago.

00:09:08.431 --> 00:09:11.253
Now, when I was a young man,

00:09:11.273 --> 00:09:13.195
when I was right here,

00:09:17.941 --> 00:09:18.900
I know, it's funny, like,

00:09:18.942 --> 00:09:19.922
it still seems very new,

00:09:20.081 --> 00:09:22.102
and at the same time, like,

00:09:22.143 --> 00:09:22.942
three years in that is a

00:09:23.344 --> 00:09:24.024
pretty decent time.

00:09:24.124 --> 00:09:25.565
I mean, three years is shit,

00:09:25.644 --> 00:09:27.125
don't get me wrong, but still, like,

00:09:27.264 --> 00:09:28.285
in this space.

00:09:28.326 --> 00:09:28.905
In this space,

00:09:29.005 --> 00:09:30.886
three years makes us fucking dinosaurs.

00:09:31.147 --> 00:09:31.768
Yeah, I know.

00:09:31.807 --> 00:09:32.587
We're survivors.

00:09:33.347 --> 00:09:35.548
Even if we go out now, we're survivors.

00:09:35.729 --> 00:09:36.450
We're survivors.

00:09:37.250 --> 00:09:37.870
Oh, yeah, baby.

00:09:38.389 --> 00:09:40.591
Every team I talked to recently,

00:09:40.610 --> 00:09:41.431
they all like, yeah,

00:09:41.451 --> 00:09:43.072
we started this in 2017.

00:09:43.072 --> 00:09:44.072
I was like, did you?

00:09:44.912 --> 00:09:45.533
Did you really?

00:09:45.873 --> 00:09:46.592
Did you really?

00:09:46.852 --> 00:09:50.033
We wrote this thing in 2018.

00:09:50.114 --> 00:09:51.514
Yeah, man.

00:09:51.554 --> 00:09:53.615
They bought their first XRP in 2017.

00:09:53.774 --> 00:09:54.195
Yeah.

00:09:54.595 --> 00:09:56.216
I was like, 2018 is like... I'm like,

00:09:57.836 --> 00:09:58.177
did you?

00:09:59.517 --> 00:09:59.736
Yeah.

00:10:01.138 --> 00:10:02.298
People's dates get all fucked up.

00:10:03.177 --> 00:10:03.518
Oh, man.

00:10:03.618 --> 00:10:04.458
I don't know about this.

00:10:04.499 --> 00:10:04.798
Yeah.

00:10:07.466 --> 00:10:08.326
Can I claim that we've been

00:10:08.346 --> 00:10:09.967
in business since 2012 as a result?

00:10:10.568 --> 00:10:10.649
Yeah.

00:10:10.668 --> 00:10:11.448
We've been trading.

00:10:11.649 --> 00:10:12.649
We've been trading.

00:10:13.490 --> 00:10:14.331
Trading pizza.

00:10:15.011 --> 00:10:16.231
Trading Bitcoin for pizza.

00:10:16.773 --> 00:10:17.393
Whatever it takes.

00:10:18.153 --> 00:10:19.934
Yeah.

00:10:22.836 --> 00:10:23.336
Sorry, Matt.

00:10:23.356 --> 00:10:24.057
What were you saying?

00:10:25.339 --> 00:10:26.399
I can't remember.

00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:28.921
It was profound.

00:10:29.861 --> 00:10:30.522
Was it profound?

00:10:30.782 --> 00:10:31.702
Three weeks.

00:10:31.722 --> 00:10:33.903
You've got three weeks to think about it.

00:10:33.943 --> 00:10:34.985
Three weeks to think about it.

00:10:35.546 --> 00:10:36.125
Already forgotten.

00:10:36.994 --> 00:10:37.913
Yeah, already forgotten.

00:10:38.794 --> 00:10:41.274
I'm sort of, uh, you know, I'm wondering,

00:10:42.816 --> 00:10:44.035
Eric's got me all wound up

00:10:44.076 --> 00:10:44.996
with this blog thing.

00:10:45.037 --> 00:10:46.197
I'm wondering where my log is.

00:10:47.777 --> 00:10:49.118
I specify where to put it.

00:10:49.197 --> 00:10:50.357
It's just, it's not there.

00:10:50.378 --> 00:10:52.938
I fucking don't know what's

00:10:52.979 --> 00:10:53.818
going on with that shit.

00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:55.639
Where's my log.

00:10:57.701 --> 00:10:58.821
This is the essence of,

00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:00.801
of running any kind of

00:11:00.861 --> 00:11:03.241
infrastructure is long

00:11:03.322 --> 00:11:05.503
periods of doing nothing while thinking.

00:11:06.974 --> 00:11:10.235
But what the fuck followed by like,

00:11:10.716 --> 00:11:11.076
I dunno,

00:11:11.116 --> 00:11:13.198
two to four hours of very intense,

00:11:13.278 --> 00:11:15.600
very caffeinated work where

00:11:15.640 --> 00:11:17.022
you figure out a load of stuff,

00:11:17.902 --> 00:11:18.903
get a load of stuff done

00:11:19.003 --> 00:11:21.105
and then revert to being a

00:11:21.125 --> 00:11:22.205
zombie staring to space.

00:11:22.245 --> 00:11:23.466
At least that's my experience of,

00:11:23.767 --> 00:11:25.248
of running any kind of infrastructure,

00:11:25.268 --> 00:11:28.029
whether it's Docker or not, or, um,

00:11:29.051 --> 00:11:29.910
I remember like one very

00:11:29.971 --> 00:11:30.812
hot summer when I,

00:11:30.971 --> 00:11:32.113
when I was a junior engineer.

00:11:33.067 --> 00:11:35.188
rebuilding all of our deployment stacks.

00:11:35.708 --> 00:11:37.210
One hot summer.

00:11:37.230 --> 00:11:39.292
This sounds like the start

00:11:39.331 --> 00:11:41.812
of a fucking story that sounds very long.

00:11:42.614 --> 00:11:44.274
That's kind of the end of it.

00:11:44.315 --> 00:11:46.056
I remember one hot summer

00:11:46.076 --> 00:11:50.058
when I was a young man in my 20s.

00:11:50.178 --> 00:11:52.341
It was dead warm and I felt

00:11:52.380 --> 00:11:54.022
like I did nothing all summer,

00:11:54.081 --> 00:11:55.302
but I got a bunch of stuff

00:11:55.342 --> 00:11:57.124
done and people were like, hey, good job.

00:11:57.904 --> 00:11:59.365
But I just felt like I kind

00:11:59.405 --> 00:12:00.567
of did like a couple of

00:12:00.606 --> 00:12:01.668
hours a day of like

00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:03.710
trying to of actually

00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:04.691
tinkering and then like a

00:12:04.750 --> 00:12:05.431
couple of hours day of

00:12:05.471 --> 00:12:06.172
thinking and then I was

00:12:06.192 --> 00:12:07.273
fucking watching youtube I

00:12:07.293 --> 00:12:09.274
swear to fucking god but um

00:12:09.294 --> 00:12:11.216
yeah whatever man

00:12:11.375 --> 00:12:13.357
infrastructure baby it's

00:12:13.378 --> 00:12:15.298
also raising it's also one

00:12:15.318 --> 00:12:15.899
of those things where like

00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:17.081
everything's fine it's fine

00:12:17.160 --> 00:12:18.121
it's fine and then like you

00:12:18.142 --> 00:12:19.042
get tipped up on one thing

00:12:19.062 --> 00:12:19.962
you're like oh shit this is

00:12:20.003 --> 00:12:21.865
totally fucked it's fine

00:12:21.904 --> 00:12:22.684
it's fine it's fine it's

00:12:22.745 --> 00:12:23.826
fucked it's fucked

00:12:24.807 --> 00:12:25.126
Yeah,

00:12:25.246 --> 00:12:27.788
we've had a really bad run of near

00:12:27.828 --> 00:12:29.610
misses in production in the

00:12:29.669 --> 00:12:31.931
last three months caused by

00:12:32.751 --> 00:12:34.852
a mad set of random things.

00:12:35.692 --> 00:12:37.614
And then that box of ours

00:12:37.693 --> 00:12:38.894
fully exploding the other

00:12:38.934 --> 00:12:42.836
week was... Yeah.

00:12:43.418 --> 00:12:43.677
It's fun.

00:12:44.706 --> 00:12:45.587
Yeah, you hate to see it,

00:12:45.727 --> 00:12:47.369
but at least it was on a Cosmos chain.

00:12:47.749 --> 00:12:48.549
You hate to see it.

00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:50.171
You hate to see it.

00:12:50.831 --> 00:12:52.272
I mainly hated to see the

00:12:52.312 --> 00:12:53.712
PagerDuty notifications

00:12:53.753 --> 00:12:55.474
about a chain that has made

00:12:55.514 --> 00:12:57.775
us a lifetime earnings of $290.

00:12:57.775 --> 00:12:59.836
I'm like, $290, baby,

00:12:59.897 --> 00:13:01.057
don't even fucking wake me up.

00:13:01.077 --> 00:13:03.440
I don't know if you could

00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:06.581
count that as earnings.

00:13:06.841 --> 00:13:08.283
It is definitely revenue,

00:13:08.363 --> 00:13:11.225
but it is also a heavy, heavy loss.

00:13:11.585 --> 00:13:13.145
Yeah.

00:13:13.186 --> 00:13:13.407
Also...

00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:15.640
It's probably pretty illiquid.

00:13:15.701 --> 00:13:16.402
I don't even know that you

00:13:16.422 --> 00:13:19.063
can get those and take them anywhere.

00:13:20.865 --> 00:13:21.586
Yeah.

00:13:22.667 --> 00:13:23.067
Yeah.

00:13:23.668 --> 00:13:25.149
I don't think Mars is traded anywhere.

00:13:25.208 --> 00:13:26.931
So it's a bit like... This

00:13:26.951 --> 00:13:28.172
strikes me as I remember...

00:13:28.192 --> 00:13:29.432
Do you remember in the

00:13:29.452 --> 00:13:32.355
first bit when the chain launched,

00:13:32.375 --> 00:13:33.576
there was a period where...

00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:36.030
There was something funny about inflation.

00:13:36.051 --> 00:13:37.630
I think the airdrop hadn't happened yet.

00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:39.871
So majority of people didn't have tokens.

00:13:40.451 --> 00:13:41.432
And there was a period of a

00:13:41.472 --> 00:13:42.253
couple of weeks where they

00:13:42.293 --> 00:13:43.972
were figuring out something, I guess,

00:13:43.993 --> 00:13:44.813
presumably deploying

00:13:44.854 --> 00:13:45.833
contracts or something.

00:13:46.653 --> 00:13:49.294
And you could just run your

00:13:49.335 --> 00:13:50.515
validator and they were like,

00:13:50.615 --> 00:13:52.336
this is where validators

00:13:52.817 --> 00:13:54.898
will get a bit extra to self stake.

00:13:54.957 --> 00:13:55.798
And you're like, okay, cool.

00:13:56.357 --> 00:13:57.077
And we were just running

00:13:57.118 --> 00:13:58.239
like default 10% because

00:13:58.318 --> 00:13:59.519
that's just what we bond on

00:13:59.839 --> 00:14:00.578
almost every chain.

00:14:01.038 --> 00:14:01.879
And the team reached out to

00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:03.019
us and we're like, what the fuck?

00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:04.559
We said 5%.

00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.140
And you're like, um, well, you know,

00:14:07.160 --> 00:14:08.020
decentralization,

00:14:08.081 --> 00:14:08.640
like we can kind of

00:14:08.660 --> 00:14:10.001
actually fucking pick for ourselves.

00:14:10.662 --> 00:14:11.802
And they're like 5%.

00:14:11.881 --> 00:14:13.763
You're like, look, lads,

00:14:14.543 --> 00:14:15.582
there is a bear market.

00:14:15.602 --> 00:14:16.842
I know if you looked out the window,

00:14:17.023 --> 00:14:19.024
it's not like, uh,

00:14:21.717 --> 00:14:23.778
whatever and then uh and

00:14:23.798 --> 00:14:25.259
they just got fucking super

00:14:25.419 --> 00:14:27.480
arsey like real fucking

00:14:27.581 --> 00:14:29.522
arsey I think in the end we

00:14:29.542 --> 00:14:30.461
just gradually brought it

00:14:30.501 --> 00:14:31.363
down because it's like oh

00:14:31.543 --> 00:14:33.003
fuck it I don't need people

00:14:33.023 --> 00:14:34.024
I don't need this I don't

00:14:34.043 --> 00:14:34.943
need that growing my life

00:14:35.284 --> 00:14:36.205
but that was really the

00:14:36.225 --> 00:14:36.904
clue that we should just

00:14:36.945 --> 00:14:39.186
fucking unbonded that was

00:14:39.206 --> 00:14:39.826
the clue we should have

00:14:39.846 --> 00:14:41.668
unbonded day four whatever

00:14:41.707 --> 00:14:43.207
that was of mars's life

00:14:44.589 --> 00:14:46.370
just speaking of unbonded

00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:47.350
so at most is going to an

00:14:47.370 --> 00:14:50.871
uh icf oh yeah yeah

00:14:51.368 --> 00:14:53.048
Yeah, they're going to be, or ICS.

00:14:53.089 --> 00:14:53.668
I'm sorry, what did I say?

00:14:53.729 --> 00:14:54.048
ICF?

00:14:54.188 --> 00:14:54.649
ICS.

00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:55.789
ICS.

00:14:55.809 --> 00:14:57.990
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:58.311 --> 00:14:59.432
I wonder if they're going to

00:14:59.491 --> 00:15:00.653
take their extremely

00:15:00.712 --> 00:15:03.014
bloated state along with them to ICS.

00:15:05.134 --> 00:15:06.335
I mean, yeah.

00:15:06.576 --> 00:15:06.796
I mean,

00:15:10.518 --> 00:15:12.678
why not bring a one terabyte database?

00:15:12.778 --> 00:15:14.239
It can't be state synced at all.

00:15:14.339 --> 00:15:16.179
I mean, let's just bring it all in.

00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.941
All those Cosmos founders

00:15:17.961 --> 00:15:19.221
would be fucking excited about this.

00:15:19.857 --> 00:15:23.179
If I was a Cosmos validator

00:15:23.259 --> 00:15:24.681
and I saw that shit, I'd be like,

00:15:24.900 --> 00:15:25.240
I'm boned.

00:15:27.341 --> 00:15:29.863
I'd be fucking no with vetoing that shit.

00:15:31.024 --> 00:15:32.764
No with veto.

00:15:33.125 --> 00:15:33.985
Still no.

00:15:34.806 --> 00:15:35.686
No rewards.

00:15:36.846 --> 00:15:38.408
Three cent token price.

00:15:43.049 --> 00:15:43.289
Sweet.

00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:45.951
Not going to lie, we bailed on Ethnos.

00:15:46.292 --> 00:15:47.792
I was talking about it,

00:15:47.851 --> 00:15:48.913
but now I'm just going to wait.

00:15:49.857 --> 00:15:50.839
I'm just going to play the big one.

00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:52.278
All right.

00:15:52.298 --> 00:15:54.660
You wait until it goes to the end.

00:15:54.921 --> 00:15:55.600
What the fuck, man?

00:15:55.660 --> 00:15:59.202
I've been here since the beginning.

00:15:59.462 --> 00:16:01.124
I don't know.

00:16:02.004 --> 00:16:02.524
I woke up.

00:16:02.585 --> 00:16:03.205
It was gone.

00:16:03.225 --> 00:16:05.326
I don't know.

00:16:05.366 --> 00:16:05.846
What happened?

00:16:06.586 --> 00:16:07.128
I don't know.

00:16:08.048 --> 00:16:08.668
Oh, God.

00:16:08.688 --> 00:16:09.769
It was long at most.

00:16:09.828 --> 00:16:10.389
Now what happened?

00:16:10.590 --> 00:16:12.110
Fucking at most.

00:16:12.370 --> 00:16:12.650
That's...

00:16:14.625 --> 00:16:16.788
yeah yeah I don't know how I

00:16:16.807 --> 00:16:17.729
guess it's a good question

00:16:17.808 --> 00:16:20.412
actually so badly fmos died

00:16:20.711 --> 00:16:22.793
when their main decks had

00:16:22.833 --> 00:16:24.436
the liquidity sapped yeah

00:16:24.797 --> 00:16:26.138
and that was it that was

00:16:26.158 --> 00:16:29.562
that was a year ago yeah

00:16:30.363 --> 00:16:31.384
it's kind of wild though

00:16:31.423 --> 00:16:33.166
that the the ics thing is

00:16:33.186 --> 00:16:34.327
gaining a lot more traction

00:16:34.388 --> 00:16:35.489
now and it's just like

00:16:37.509 --> 00:16:40.309
Like, like, like completely physically,

00:16:40.330 --> 00:16:41.370
but also unphysically.

00:16:41.410 --> 00:16:42.211
The whole fucking point of

00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:43.551
Cosmos is like looking over

00:16:43.572 --> 00:16:45.011
a theory and being like, well,

00:16:45.032 --> 00:16:46.033
that's not going to fucking work.

00:16:46.472 --> 00:16:48.373
So how about federated blockchains?

00:16:48.514 --> 00:16:50.693
And then they do that and

00:16:51.274 --> 00:16:52.375
people will stop becoming

00:16:52.695 --> 00:16:53.596
overnight millionaires.

00:16:53.615 --> 00:16:56.336
And they're like, Hmm, actually,

00:16:56.657 --> 00:16:57.976
how about what if we

00:16:58.337 --> 00:16:59.898
consolidate all of our shit

00:16:59.918 --> 00:17:01.778
chains into one shit chain

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:03.679
and literally just reinvent the L2?

00:17:04.715 --> 00:17:05.615
But it's not an L2.

00:17:05.655 --> 00:17:06.777
These are federated blockchains.

00:17:07.057 --> 00:17:09.018
You do have sovereign control.

00:17:09.377 --> 00:17:10.318
This is not an L2.

00:17:10.358 --> 00:17:11.398
Don't call it an L2.

00:17:12.419 --> 00:17:13.220
It's not an L2.

00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.540
It's definitely not a fucking L2.

00:17:16.260 --> 00:17:17.761
It's so unlike an L2 that

00:17:18.301 --> 00:17:19.623
nobody could confuse them

00:17:20.202 --> 00:17:21.663
except for it has all the

00:17:21.703 --> 00:17:23.144
properties of an L2 from a

00:17:23.203 --> 00:17:24.865
systematic classification level.

00:17:25.125 --> 00:17:26.164
But it's not an L2.

00:17:26.506 --> 00:17:29.606
It's really not anything like an L2.

00:17:29.767 --> 00:17:31.188
Couldn't be further from it.

00:17:33.828 --> 00:17:34.128
But yet

00:17:37.414 --> 00:17:42.977
And yet fucking it just, you know,

00:17:43.017 --> 00:17:44.196
like wild idea,

00:17:44.257 --> 00:17:46.038
just like go and build something better.

00:17:46.897 --> 00:17:48.378
Like if it ain't working for you,

00:17:49.199 --> 00:17:51.119
like use that,

00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:52.500
get 20 million of venture

00:17:52.539 --> 00:17:54.201
capital or whatever,

00:17:54.641 --> 00:17:56.060
and go and build a fucking product.

00:17:56.422 --> 00:17:58.362
Like, yeah.

00:17:59.102 --> 00:17:59.323
Yeah.

00:17:59.403 --> 00:18:00.623
I think the idea of building, I mean,

00:18:00.643 --> 00:18:02.104
at most was a kind of a platform, right?

00:18:02.144 --> 00:18:02.784
Similar to Juno.

00:18:03.304 --> 00:18:03.423
Yeah.

00:18:04.021 --> 00:18:04.561
Like they're,

00:18:04.701 --> 00:18:06.982
they're both Juno is a right.

00:18:07.042 --> 00:18:08.203
Permissionless wasn't platform.

00:18:08.263 --> 00:18:10.065
At most as a permissionless permissionless,

00:18:10.085 --> 00:18:10.625
I think, right.

00:18:11.144 --> 00:18:11.885
EVM platform.

00:18:12.165 --> 00:18:13.806
And that doesn't necessarily

00:18:13.905 --> 00:18:14.386
mean anything.

00:18:15.166 --> 00:18:15.287
Yeah.

00:18:15.307 --> 00:18:16.307
It means jack shit.

00:18:16.768 --> 00:18:19.409
Like, but it's also just like, I mean,

00:18:19.528 --> 00:18:21.670
it's like so many of these

00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:22.930
cosmos chains that that is

00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:23.750
fundamentally the problem

00:18:23.790 --> 00:18:24.790
as well is that there is no,

00:18:25.010 --> 00:18:25.991
there is no product there,

00:18:26.251 --> 00:18:26.912
but also just like,

00:18:26.951 --> 00:18:28.053
nobody's prepared to engage

00:18:28.093 --> 00:18:29.613
with the hard problems.

00:18:29.653 --> 00:18:30.634
Like a lot of the,

00:18:31.153 --> 00:18:31.914
if you actually want to

00:18:31.934 --> 00:18:32.815
like re-implement,

00:18:34.392 --> 00:18:35.432
any part of the consensus

00:18:35.452 --> 00:18:37.594
stack you know go back to

00:18:37.634 --> 00:18:39.375
fucking school like if

00:18:39.394 --> 00:18:40.875
you're not like like if

00:18:40.895 --> 00:18:43.178
you're not pretty okay with

00:18:43.377 --> 00:18:44.499
with the actual theory of

00:18:44.558 --> 00:18:46.099
consensus systems like like

00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:48.141
it is actually a hard

00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.281
engineering problem that

00:18:49.301 --> 00:18:52.903
requires people like but

00:18:53.023 --> 00:18:54.184
but but this is the thing

00:18:54.224 --> 00:18:55.905
like it's not like these

00:18:55.945 --> 00:18:57.606
teams haven't raised enough

00:18:57.747 --> 00:18:58.468
money to do that

00:18:59.644 --> 00:19:00.384
which is the thing that

00:19:00.444 --> 00:19:01.645
doesn't doesn't fucking add

00:19:01.685 --> 00:19:02.986
up to me like well not not

00:19:03.046 --> 00:19:04.266
every team but like the

00:19:04.286 --> 00:19:05.487
teams who are better funded

00:19:05.507 --> 00:19:06.487
you're like you have the

00:19:06.527 --> 00:19:08.406
money to hire people who

00:19:08.467 --> 00:19:10.048
have a master's in computer

00:19:10.067 --> 00:19:11.208
science you can scrape a

00:19:11.228 --> 00:19:12.689
few together was that is

00:19:12.709 --> 00:19:15.108
that the issue though well

00:19:15.288 --> 00:19:16.148
I mean the the issue is

00:19:16.209 --> 00:19:17.029
it's easier to launch a

00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:18.490
shit chain promise them the

00:19:18.529 --> 00:19:19.329
world of the moon on a

00:19:19.369 --> 00:19:20.570
stick and then just watch

00:19:20.651 --> 00:19:22.990
it fail but after you've

00:19:23.010 --> 00:19:24.152
already cashed out um

00:19:25.907 --> 00:19:26.468
No, no.

00:19:26.749 --> 00:19:28.190
In these two situations,

00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:28.970
I think the idea was, hey,

00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:29.891
we're going to build a platform,

00:19:29.911 --> 00:19:31.771
and then these teams are going to show up,

00:19:31.853 --> 00:19:33.933
and we're going to build this.

00:19:34.354 --> 00:19:36.695
We're going to build these cases.

00:19:36.736 --> 00:19:38.376
This is a place to be able

00:19:38.758 --> 00:19:41.720
to allow dApps to succeed.

00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:42.941
And then they started to realize that, oh,

00:19:43.141 --> 00:19:45.001
these dApps, I mean, honestly,

00:19:45.021 --> 00:19:46.462
the best ones that we

00:19:46.482 --> 00:19:48.265
worked with have their own chains, right?

00:19:48.305 --> 00:19:52.067
Because they, like, right?

00:19:52.407 --> 00:19:53.949
Why would they be a consumer

00:19:53.989 --> 00:19:54.569
on something else?

00:19:54.589 --> 00:19:55.069
Yeah.

00:19:55.633 --> 00:19:58.714
Um, so then, then like,

00:19:58.755 --> 00:19:59.236
if somebody is going to

00:19:59.276 --> 00:20:01.336
raise a significant amount

00:20:01.356 --> 00:20:03.219
of money to be a, to be a,

00:20:03.939 --> 00:20:06.540
an application on a, on a chain, like the,

00:20:07.060 --> 00:20:07.201
the,

00:20:07.701 --> 00:20:10.544
the actual ability to build that

00:20:10.604 --> 00:20:11.865
chain and build a valve set

00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:12.705
and like actually do that

00:20:12.766 --> 00:20:13.665
is not that much of a

00:20:13.726 --> 00:20:15.287
bigger stretch than the actual DAP.

00:20:16.008 --> 00:20:16.788
So why would they do that?

00:20:17.288 --> 00:20:17.449
Right?

00:20:17.469 --> 00:20:19.369
Like, why would like bear, especially,

00:20:19.450 --> 00:20:20.691
especially a cosmos chain, right?

00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:21.912
Because you can,

00:20:22.192 --> 00:20:23.133
you can spin up a cosmos

00:20:23.153 --> 00:20:24.193
chain in an afternoon and,

00:20:25.173 --> 00:20:26.199
It's just that then, you know.

00:20:27.443 --> 00:20:27.604
Yeah.

00:20:27.744 --> 00:20:27.885
Like,

00:20:28.066 --> 00:20:29.491
like bear is a good example of that bird.

00:20:29.732 --> 00:20:30.336
Bear chain could be a, a

00:20:31.152 --> 00:20:32.192
an application set on a

00:20:32.291 --> 00:20:32.952
there's like a ton of

00:20:32.972 --> 00:20:33.772
different chains I could do

00:20:33.792 --> 00:20:34.653
we could do that and say

00:20:34.712 --> 00:20:35.473
you could do a ton of

00:20:35.493 --> 00:20:36.794
different things right like

00:20:37.233 --> 00:20:39.134
but then to paraphrase a a

00:20:39.174 --> 00:20:40.234
famous why would you right

00:20:40.315 --> 00:20:41.976
I had I had I had a problem

00:20:42.415 --> 00:20:43.675
I used cosmos to solve that

00:20:43.715 --> 00:20:44.777
problem now I have two

00:20:44.836 --> 00:20:47.218
problems who the hell said

00:20:47.238 --> 00:20:51.459
that uh yeah well I use the

00:20:51.499 --> 00:20:53.240
kawaii space use cosmos sdk

00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:54.319
10 of it solve my problem

00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:55.980
now I have two problems I mean

00:20:57.656 --> 00:20:57.917
I think,

00:20:58.278 --> 00:20:59.579
which we didn't know in 2021 when

00:20:59.681 --> 00:21:01.042
we were talking about timelines,

00:21:01.103 --> 00:21:03.627
but the ability for just to

00:21:03.647 --> 00:21:04.568
have a platform for anybody

00:21:04.608 --> 00:21:05.190
to come and be able to

00:21:05.210 --> 00:21:06.532
build something is not

00:21:06.573 --> 00:21:07.453
necessarily something that

00:21:07.515 --> 00:21:08.175
actually has value.

00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:10.602
Well, I guess we all learned, right?

00:21:10.622 --> 00:21:11.541
Like, I think, I mean,

00:21:11.823 --> 00:21:13.203
I guess like the previous

00:21:13.263 --> 00:21:17.186
matter for 2021 was like

00:21:17.267 --> 00:21:19.088
DeFi summer on Ethereum.

00:21:19.108 --> 00:21:20.589
So I think that there was a

00:21:20.650 --> 00:21:23.271
pervading feeling that that

00:21:23.332 --> 00:21:24.553
had run out of steam,

00:21:24.692 --> 00:21:25.913
maybe because of a

00:21:25.973 --> 00:21:27.435
combination of fees and

00:21:28.497 --> 00:21:30.897
and slow blocks and a

00:21:30.938 --> 00:21:32.980
variety of other kind of related things.

00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:34.560
And so it was like, okay, well,

00:21:34.580 --> 00:21:36.021
if we can solve those problems,

00:21:36.061 --> 00:21:36.942
then maybe we can bring,

00:21:37.482 --> 00:21:40.385
bring some of that energy to cosmos.

00:21:41.326 --> 00:21:43.788
Um, like that beginning of the, uh,

00:21:44.308 --> 00:21:45.249
that guy in the beginning

00:21:45.269 --> 00:21:46.490
of the big short, you know, the big,

00:21:46.711 --> 00:21:47.810
the big guy, the sweaty guy,

00:21:48.152 --> 00:21:49.413
the mortgage backed securities guy,

00:21:49.833 --> 00:21:50.953
when he's like, come on,

00:21:50.993 --> 00:21:52.315
let's hear some money in here.

00:21:52.335 --> 00:21:53.476
Oh yeah.

00:21:53.875 --> 00:21:54.256
Yeah.

00:21:54.296 --> 00:21:55.237
Right at the beginning.

00:21:55.257 --> 00:21:57.199
Uh, that's, uh,

00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:00.082
I felt like that's the Cosmos thing.

00:22:00.122 --> 00:22:01.563
It's like 2021 Cosmos.

00:22:01.643 --> 00:22:03.605
It's like, right, DeFi summer didn't work.

00:22:03.644 --> 00:22:03.825
Well,

00:22:03.944 --> 00:22:05.707
we've got very slightly quicker

00:22:05.727 --> 00:22:07.468
blocks and much lower fees.

00:22:07.909 --> 00:22:09.410
Come on, let's see some money in here.

00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:09.509
Yeah.

00:22:10.730 --> 00:22:10.872
Well,

00:22:11.751 --> 00:22:13.453
I was on a call this morning with

00:22:14.095 --> 00:22:15.736
somebody else who's another

00:22:15.756 --> 00:22:17.136
chain that's not by myself.

00:22:17.156 --> 00:22:17.938
It was like a bunch of

00:22:17.958 --> 00:22:19.078
people kind of doing like a...

00:22:21.896 --> 00:22:23.758
a debrief on the chain in

00:22:23.778 --> 00:22:25.157
the future and like what's going on.

00:22:25.198 --> 00:22:26.199
And it was all technical.

00:22:26.439 --> 00:22:27.098
It was all technical.

00:22:27.298 --> 00:22:29.200
It was all like, Hey, we're first to this.

00:22:29.259 --> 00:22:29.980
We're first to this.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.680
We're first to this.

00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:31.901
And I don't think any of

00:22:31.921 --> 00:22:32.540
that shit matters.

00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:33.740
I really don't.

00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:34.981
It doesn't make any fucking difference.

00:22:36.018 --> 00:22:38.480
Bring use cases or like that's it.

00:22:38.861 --> 00:22:39.800
I think the idea of like

00:22:39.901 --> 00:22:41.123
building platforms or like

00:22:41.823 --> 00:22:43.163
we're going to somehow, you know,

00:22:43.984 --> 00:22:44.445
somehow we're going to

00:22:44.465 --> 00:22:46.467
build up an ecosystem that

00:22:46.586 --> 00:22:47.667
everybody's going to flock to.

00:22:47.688 --> 00:22:48.970
I just don't think so.

00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:50.471
And honestly,

00:22:50.550 --> 00:22:51.711
even if you have a great dApp

00:22:51.731 --> 00:22:52.553
that like actually has a

00:22:53.232 --> 00:22:54.233
shitload of users and does

00:22:54.273 --> 00:22:55.414
a fucking amazing job of

00:22:55.434 --> 00:22:56.195
marketing all that type of stuff,

00:22:56.635 --> 00:22:57.616
that could probably exist

00:22:57.676 --> 00:22:59.239
on any chain and still be successful.

00:23:00.078 --> 00:23:00.220
Yeah.

00:23:03.496 --> 00:23:04.317
I guess there are a couple

00:23:04.336 --> 00:23:06.196
of examples where that is a bit tougher.

00:23:06.336 --> 00:23:10.298
I think the SWE and Aptos

00:23:10.417 --> 00:23:12.077
are an example where

00:23:12.657 --> 00:23:13.857
because Move is so

00:23:13.917 --> 00:23:16.358
specialist or relatively specialist,

00:23:17.138 --> 00:23:18.778
where are you going to take your dApp?

00:23:18.798 --> 00:23:19.479
Are you going to take it to

00:23:19.598 --> 00:23:21.119
Aptos or are you going to take it to SWE?

00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:22.819
And that's it.

00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:25.079
So if you're moved to developer,

00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:26.420
you're kind of shit out of

00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:27.300
luck if you want to...

00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:29.540
You're not just going to launch your own

00:23:31.655 --> 00:23:35.259
chain um using move because

00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.299
the underlying

00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.061
infrastructure like the the

00:23:40.222 --> 00:23:41.242
the amount you would need

00:23:41.262 --> 00:23:42.423
to understand to maintain

00:23:42.463 --> 00:23:44.846
that chain is considerably

00:23:44.925 --> 00:23:46.507
higher than the previous

00:23:46.547 --> 00:23:47.528
generation which is like

00:23:47.548 --> 00:23:48.409
tenderman and stuff like

00:23:48.449 --> 00:23:51.371
that I don't know like we're like we're

00:23:53.286 --> 00:23:54.967
A friend of the show at

00:23:55.007 --> 00:23:56.507
Artifact believes that SWE

00:23:56.547 --> 00:23:57.728
is going to be the next Tendermint,

00:23:57.788 --> 00:23:58.867
meaning there's going to be

00:23:58.887 --> 00:24:00.028
a shitload of chains that

00:24:00.068 --> 00:24:02.450
launch off of the SWE base,

00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:03.910
meaning it's very easy to

00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:05.111
stand up and very reusable

00:24:05.131 --> 00:24:05.830
and those types of things.

00:24:07.051 --> 00:24:07.951
If that's the case,

00:24:08.011 --> 00:24:10.133
why are we not doing it?

00:24:10.472 --> 00:24:11.473
We have the Tendermint.

00:24:11.713 --> 00:24:12.653
We haven't seen it yet, right?

00:24:13.034 --> 00:24:13.693
No, no, no.

00:24:13.814 --> 00:24:17.816
I mean, why do we not create Juno SWE?

00:24:18.916 --> 00:24:19.557
Let's do it.

00:24:20.317 --> 00:24:21.136
Does it have governance?

00:24:21.278 --> 00:24:21.478
I'm out.

00:24:23.755 --> 00:24:27.176
We make Yusuf do all the voting.

00:24:28.037 --> 00:24:29.258
Yusuf is dictator for life.

00:24:29.798 --> 00:24:31.058
He never looked dictator for life.

00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:32.419
Yeah, we should talk about that too.

00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:34.980
Yeah, I think Chins have a dictator.

00:24:35.161 --> 00:24:37.481
That's a good, I like that idea.

00:24:37.582 --> 00:24:39.663
Oh yeah, it's better than Validators.

00:24:39.702 --> 00:24:40.123
What the hell?

00:24:40.683 --> 00:24:41.544
I just watched that,

00:24:41.564 --> 00:24:43.484
I said a few weeks ago,

00:24:43.505 --> 00:24:45.105
I watched on your Plex server,

00:24:45.185 --> 00:24:50.429
the Joaquin Phoenix Napoleon film.

00:24:50.848 --> 00:24:52.670
You said the inside to be an outside.

00:24:53.913 --> 00:24:56.016
that you said the inside bit

00:24:56.056 --> 00:24:59.178
outside you don't say that

00:24:59.238 --> 00:25:06.644
word which one oh right

00:25:06.723 --> 00:25:07.825
okay well sorry whatever

00:25:09.846 --> 00:25:11.847
usurper's media server that

00:25:12.448 --> 00:25:14.109
I kindly have a link to

00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:16.832
watch some of his dvds on

00:25:17.451 --> 00:25:20.674
um together yeah

00:25:22.659 --> 00:25:24.299
together you can watch a dvd

00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:25.400
with your friends anyway

00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:28.280
you can as long as it's not

00:25:28.300 --> 00:25:29.561
on an oil rig or a plane

00:25:29.602 --> 00:25:30.301
I'm pretty sure that's what

00:25:30.321 --> 00:25:31.063
it says at the beginning of

00:25:31.103 --> 00:25:34.804
the dvd right oh like oh

00:25:34.824 --> 00:25:36.365
yeah oh yeah yeah or in a

00:25:36.384 --> 00:25:38.165
hotel yeah it's like oil

00:25:38.185 --> 00:25:40.807
rig plane hotel it's like

00:25:40.987 --> 00:25:42.167
microsoft xp or whatever

00:25:42.208 --> 00:25:43.127
when you boot it up it's

00:25:43.167 --> 00:25:44.067
like don't run this on a

00:25:44.127 --> 00:25:45.548
nuclear submarine it's the

00:25:45.568 --> 00:25:47.170
same kind of as long as

00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:48.089
it's not explicitly

00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:49.471
mentioned you're good it's

00:25:49.550 --> 00:25:50.671
fine that's certainly how

00:25:50.691 --> 00:25:52.172
the law works um

00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:03.326
who wants to be the napoleon

00:26:03.467 --> 00:26:04.407
of our new shit chain

00:26:04.428 --> 00:26:05.469
project that's my question

00:26:08.070 --> 00:26:13.433
um well it should be I mean

00:26:14.074 --> 00:26:14.795
I think we should take the

00:26:14.934 --> 00:26:16.316
dydx approach which would be that

00:26:17.542 --> 00:26:18.303
There is a shit chain.

00:26:18.323 --> 00:26:19.222
That's well,

00:26:19.442 --> 00:26:22.243
do I shit chain exists that it

00:26:22.324 --> 00:26:26.105
exists and we don't have

00:26:26.125 --> 00:26:27.424
any ownership of it, right?

00:26:28.085 --> 00:26:28.744
We do know that where the

00:26:28.765 --> 00:26:30.066
software exists and there's

00:26:30.105 --> 00:26:30.846
a lot of independent

00:26:30.865 --> 00:26:31.586
independent people that we

00:26:31.605 --> 00:26:32.246
don't know who they are

00:26:32.306 --> 00:26:33.066
that actually do that.

00:26:34.526 --> 00:26:36.606
And then people have made commits,

00:26:36.707 --> 00:26:37.707
but who they are,

00:26:37.727 --> 00:26:38.467
we don't know who they are.

00:26:38.747 --> 00:26:38.926
Right.

00:26:39.366 --> 00:26:42.288
And then it's how it's all

00:26:42.327 --> 00:26:43.067
housed in the server.

00:26:43.107 --> 00:26:44.449
That's located in those new house.

00:26:46.269 --> 00:26:46.669
Exactly.

00:26:47.834 --> 00:26:53.156
so what I am to be fair

00:26:53.217 --> 00:26:54.617
quite interested in and I

00:26:54.657 --> 00:26:55.499
have to say I don't know a

00:26:55.538 --> 00:26:57.359
lot about this because we

00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:58.721
don't validate it but I'm

00:26:58.740 --> 00:26:59.981
kind of interested to like

00:27:00.001 --> 00:27:03.743
um what to what extent

00:27:03.824 --> 00:27:04.904
there's like research

00:27:04.944 --> 00:27:05.884
papers and stuff coming out

00:27:05.984 --> 00:27:06.885
sweet over what they're

00:27:06.925 --> 00:27:07.665
working on because I know

00:27:07.705 --> 00:27:08.926
they have like a similar

00:27:08.946 --> 00:27:11.087
consensus mechanism to

00:27:11.167 --> 00:27:14.390
aptos but obviously mainly

00:27:14.451 --> 00:27:16.571
see the stuff related to aptos because

00:27:18.615 --> 00:27:19.695
the obvious reasons, right?

00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:24.121
But it does feel like those,

00:27:24.141 --> 00:27:25.242
those teams are spending

00:27:25.262 --> 00:27:28.405
like citation needed on the sweet side.

00:27:28.425 --> 00:27:29.968
I need to check it, but

00:27:31.655 --> 00:27:32.557
I'm supposed to publishing

00:27:32.777 --> 00:27:35.499
actual good research papers

00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.740
that build on the stuff

00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:38.240
that is going on at the

00:27:38.260 --> 00:27:39.722
forefront of BFT consensus.

00:27:39.863 --> 00:27:41.763
And like, you got to respect, like,

00:27:42.305 --> 00:27:44.226
I respect the fact that as

00:27:44.286 --> 00:27:45.708
somebody who is working in

00:27:46.048 --> 00:27:47.429
the permission space and

00:27:47.489 --> 00:27:49.230
has to make some

00:27:49.330 --> 00:27:50.731
architectural calls about

00:27:50.791 --> 00:27:51.692
how that would work,

00:27:52.373 --> 00:27:53.493
I'm looking up what the

00:27:53.534 --> 00:27:54.815
cutting edge is of things.

00:27:54.994 --> 00:27:55.255
And I'm,

00:27:56.303 --> 00:27:57.743
seeing paper citations that

00:27:57.784 --> 00:27:58.964
go in the direction of the

00:27:59.065 --> 00:28:00.145
app toast team and the app

00:28:00.165 --> 00:28:01.948
toast team data in Slack channels,

00:28:02.067 --> 00:28:03.969
like as in the avatars of

00:28:04.068 --> 00:28:06.131
people that are in those channels,

00:28:07.392 --> 00:28:08.313
you can see some.

00:28:10.795 --> 00:28:11.055
Yeah.

00:28:11.075 --> 00:28:15.338
Well, if somebody is called like null 69,

00:28:15.338 --> 00:28:16.118
four 20, right.

00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:18.641
And then Jeffrey null is an

00:28:18.781 --> 00:28:20.182
author on an academic paper.

00:28:21.573 --> 00:28:21.813
And,

00:28:22.653 --> 00:28:24.594
and the paper response was part funded

00:28:24.614 --> 00:28:25.795
by the Aptos foundation.

00:28:25.815 --> 00:28:26.835
You're like, well, I think,

00:28:27.135 --> 00:28:28.855
I think null 69,

00:28:28.855 --> 00:28:29.997
four 20 might be the same

00:28:30.037 --> 00:28:31.057
person as Jeffrey null.

00:28:31.136 --> 00:28:35.679
Do you know what I mean?

00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:38.560
I mean, I can see obviously your,

00:28:38.800 --> 00:28:39.740
your actual,

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.803
your actual handle is not null 69,

00:28:42.803 --> 00:28:43.103
four 20.

00:28:43.103 --> 00:28:45.183
It's just null, uh, names.

00:28:45.344 --> 00:28:46.443
So, you know, whatever, man.

00:28:47.125 --> 00:28:47.325
Yeah.

00:28:47.345 --> 00:28:48.345
I kind of just roll with it,

00:28:48.384 --> 00:28:49.205
hoping that it'll break

00:28:49.246 --> 00:28:49.786
something one day.

00:28:53.521 --> 00:28:56.044
some poorly constructed if

00:28:56.084 --> 00:28:57.525
it was just null on its own

00:28:57.665 --> 00:29:00.748
maybe I wish maybe I should

00:29:00.768 --> 00:29:02.429
have made my name drop

00:29:02.449 --> 00:29:05.271
table maybe little bobby

00:29:05.311 --> 00:29:08.433
tables yeah so earlier

00:29:08.974 --> 00:29:11.196
everything earlier I was in

00:29:11.217 --> 00:29:13.077
my shared office and somebody said um

00:29:15.094 --> 00:29:15.973
I can't remember what they said.

00:29:16.094 --> 00:29:17.375
Like they were going to go

00:29:17.434 --> 00:29:18.095
use the meeting room.

00:29:18.115 --> 00:29:19.836
It was like, Oh, you can't, can't do that.

00:29:19.996 --> 00:29:20.777
They were like, Oh shit.

00:29:20.817 --> 00:29:21.076
Why?

00:29:22.017 --> 00:29:22.877
And then I was like, Oh,

00:29:22.897 --> 00:29:23.778
it's full of water.

00:29:24.179 --> 00:29:27.920
And then somebody was like, I was like,

00:29:28.201 --> 00:29:29.201
sorry, joke doesn't really work.

00:29:29.221 --> 00:29:29.721
I'm just tired.

00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:30.201
Whatever, man.

00:29:30.882 --> 00:29:32.442
And then somebody else was like, Oh,

00:29:33.123 --> 00:29:34.423
but what if we actually filled it with,

00:29:34.763 --> 00:29:35.304
with balls?

00:29:35.423 --> 00:29:36.505
Like a big ball pen.

00:29:36.904 --> 00:29:38.025
Can we even afford to do that?

00:29:39.665 --> 00:29:40.046
It turned.

00:29:40.066 --> 00:29:40.926
So like I Googled it,

00:29:40.946 --> 00:29:41.886
like how much does it cost

00:29:41.926 --> 00:29:42.968
to fill a room with balls?

00:29:42.988 --> 00:29:43.028
Um,

00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:48.101
risky it's safe search on

00:29:49.041 --> 00:29:51.182
right so do you remember

00:29:51.201 --> 00:29:53.742
there's that um about 20

00:29:53.742 --> 00:29:54.804
years nearly 20 years ago

00:29:54.844 --> 00:29:55.784
now there was an xkcd

00:29:55.804 --> 00:29:57.345
cartoon where I think the

00:29:57.365 --> 00:29:57.984
punchline was something

00:29:58.005 --> 00:29:58.865
like you're an adult now

00:29:58.924 --> 00:30:00.326
you can be an adult however

00:30:00.385 --> 00:30:02.346
you want right and it was a

00:30:02.405 --> 00:30:03.646
person who'd filled their

00:30:03.666 --> 00:30:04.967
entire flat with like a

00:30:04.987 --> 00:30:06.147
stick man who'd fill their

00:30:06.167 --> 00:30:09.009
entire flat with um with bullpen bulls

00:30:10.083 --> 00:30:11.144
and then the guy that did

00:30:11.243 --> 00:30:13.645
XKCD did a fucking blog post where he did,

00:30:13.806 --> 00:30:14.205
he did it.

00:30:14.526 --> 00:30:15.027
He did that.

00:30:15.446 --> 00:30:17.248
And then there's a calculator for how,

00:30:17.429 --> 00:30:18.650
how much it will cost you

00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:20.431
to fill your flat with balls.

00:30:21.352 --> 00:30:23.192
Um, so, so yeah,

00:30:23.232 --> 00:30:24.993
no reminded me of little Bobby tables.

00:30:25.193 --> 00:30:25.555
I was like,

00:30:25.575 --> 00:30:28.096
I was reading XKCD today to

00:30:28.156 --> 00:30:29.758
find out how to fill a room

00:30:29.837 --> 00:30:31.058
with ball pen balls.

00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:32.259
Um,

00:30:35.041 --> 00:30:36.502
how many balls do you need

00:30:36.762 --> 00:30:39.463
to fill a flat sun um it's

00:30:39.503 --> 00:30:40.545
thousands of dollars is the

00:30:40.585 --> 00:30:41.945
answer thousands of dollars

00:30:44.067 --> 00:30:46.608
okay very I would imagine

00:30:46.648 --> 00:30:48.829
they're quite small it does

00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:50.310
look cool though when you

00:30:50.330 --> 00:30:51.471
see people like up to their

00:30:51.530 --> 00:30:52.971
neck in a room in balls

00:30:53.011 --> 00:30:55.814
you're like very small but

00:30:55.834 --> 00:30:57.335
did you say ball pen balls

00:30:57.394 --> 00:30:58.394
like from the tip of your

00:30:58.434 --> 00:30:59.455
pen is that what you're talking about

00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:01.682
No, no, no, like, you know,

00:31:01.721 --> 00:31:03.022
once you get into, like, a kid's... Oh,

00:31:03.103 --> 00:31:03.723
right, actual.

00:31:03.824 --> 00:31:04.844
I thought you were talking about, like,

00:31:04.884 --> 00:31:06.586
those wee bitty things from the, like,

00:31:06.605 --> 00:31:07.346
tip of your pen.

00:31:07.945 --> 00:31:08.606
That would cost, like,

00:31:09.227 --> 00:31:10.127
millions of dollars.

00:31:10.428 --> 00:31:10.748
Literally.

00:31:12.128 --> 00:31:13.190
Yeah, but it would be quite comfortable.

00:31:13.210 --> 00:31:14.391
This is simple, the pens.

00:31:14.411 --> 00:31:15.551
It'd be very fluid.

00:31:16.592 --> 00:31:17.633
Well, you could drown in it.

00:31:19.155 --> 00:31:19.856
Well, suffocate.

00:31:19.876 --> 00:31:21.738
Well, yeah, you can suffocate.

00:31:21.778 --> 00:31:23.920
Whereas bullpen balls,

00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:25.840
if you fall on the top and

00:31:25.861 --> 00:31:26.821
you sink to the bottom,

00:31:27.061 --> 00:31:27.922
you can still breathe.

00:31:28.722 --> 00:31:29.804
So you can literally go to

00:31:29.864 --> 00:31:32.286
sleep and apparently you

00:31:32.346 --> 00:31:34.027
sink down while you're asleep.

00:31:35.288 --> 00:31:38.849
But imagine inhaling a lung

00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:41.811
full of ballpoint pen balls.

00:31:42.893 --> 00:31:43.453
That'd be different.

00:31:44.834 --> 00:31:45.015
That...

00:31:46.462 --> 00:31:48.664
So in other self-harming news,

00:31:49.105 --> 00:31:53.107
I started watching, you know,

00:31:53.248 --> 00:31:55.148
viges on YouTube about Go

00:31:55.189 --> 00:31:59.912
programming and instantly didn't like it.

00:32:02.354 --> 00:32:03.074
Why were you doing that?

00:32:03.134 --> 00:32:03.674
Go coding.

00:32:04.275 --> 00:32:04.776
Coding Go.

00:32:05.215 --> 00:32:05.556
Go code.

00:32:05.836 --> 00:32:06.957
Oh, don't do that.

00:32:08.657 --> 00:32:09.338
Yeah, why were you doing that?

00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:11.059
Uh...

00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:11.990
You know,

00:32:12.049 --> 00:32:14.491
just to expand the knowledge base

00:32:14.531 --> 00:32:14.952
of things.

00:32:15.653 --> 00:32:16.874
Okay, that's a good reason.

00:32:16.913 --> 00:32:18.494
I had a spare half day while

00:32:18.515 --> 00:32:20.257
I was on a plane and

00:32:20.896 --> 00:32:22.698
downloaded a vidya series.

00:32:24.819 --> 00:32:25.921
Yeah, I don't know.

00:32:26.080 --> 00:32:27.461
Well, it seems fine.

00:32:27.961 --> 00:32:32.586
You do some stuff in Python, right?

00:32:32.605 --> 00:32:34.307
I can write Python code.

00:32:34.326 --> 00:32:34.688
Gabble.

00:32:35.688 --> 00:32:37.289
Yeah, I mean, it's just like...

00:32:38.472 --> 00:32:40.653
Python code's just like really lazy.

00:32:41.273 --> 00:32:44.135
You just type the things and put it in.

00:32:44.915 --> 00:32:46.616
Yeah, it's like lazy.

00:32:46.896 --> 00:32:47.877
I don't know if I like that

00:32:47.938 --> 00:32:51.098
whole indented thing.

00:32:51.358 --> 00:32:53.480
Yeah, it's like the ameliorator tunnel.

00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:55.441
I would rather some more

00:32:56.061 --> 00:32:58.942
definitive structure, I guess,

00:32:59.523 --> 00:33:00.084
to the thing.

00:33:00.743 --> 00:33:02.724
I can understand that, but yeah.

00:33:02.904 --> 00:33:04.226
Some more definitive structure.

00:33:04.266 --> 00:33:05.246
How definitive would you

00:33:05.266 --> 00:33:06.326
like your structure now?

00:33:07.105 --> 00:33:09.387
Not Rust definitive, I think.

00:33:11.128 --> 00:33:12.150
Well, Rust is better than Go.

00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:13.130
But anyway, apart from that.

00:33:14.852 --> 00:33:15.432
Yeah, I mean,

00:33:15.612 --> 00:33:17.093
I intend to have a look at both.

00:33:17.232 --> 00:33:18.134
I want to write a few

00:33:18.173 --> 00:33:19.335
helpers around the place

00:33:19.474 --> 00:33:21.296
for various things.

00:33:21.736 --> 00:33:23.196
And I think like doing it in

00:33:23.257 --> 00:33:24.637
Python is probably a little bit.

00:33:25.618 --> 00:33:27.119
I like a compiled thing that

00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:28.840
I can just spray around the joint,

00:33:29.061 --> 00:33:29.342
you know,

00:33:29.481 --> 00:33:30.722
that I don't have to build every time.

00:33:30.742 --> 00:33:31.083
Yeah.

00:33:33.048 --> 00:33:38.172
Having the binaries is the shit.

00:33:38.271 --> 00:33:39.553
As soon as you got used to

00:33:39.813 --> 00:33:43.276
building in Rust or Go, I should say,

00:33:43.375 --> 00:33:45.017
I'd go on the end even

00:33:45.037 --> 00:33:46.718
though I would never do it.

00:33:47.818 --> 00:33:48.980
Another problem with,

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.482
and this is not a real problem,

00:33:52.502 --> 00:33:54.084
but a problem for me with

00:33:54.183 --> 00:33:57.006
Python is that I tend to

00:33:57.306 --> 00:33:58.767
just open things and change them.

00:33:59.631 --> 00:34:02.752
if it's a possibility so you

00:34:02.772 --> 00:34:03.913
know instead of going back

00:34:03.993 --> 00:34:05.654
to the code base and fixing

00:34:05.734 --> 00:34:06.875
it and then making a new

00:34:07.115 --> 00:34:08.536
version I would just change

00:34:08.577 --> 00:34:10.557
it where it sits and forget

00:34:10.597 --> 00:34:14.340
all about it so um you know

00:34:14.521 --> 00:34:16.762
in terms of an environment

00:34:16.862 --> 00:34:19.083
where this is likely to be

00:34:19.184 --> 00:34:20.684
reused a thousand times on

00:34:20.724 --> 00:34:22.166
different things it's not

00:34:22.206 --> 00:34:23.606
great having 20 000

00:34:23.606 --> 00:34:24.467
different versions of it

00:34:24.487 --> 00:34:25.427
sitting on all the

00:34:25.467 --> 00:34:26.389
different servers rather

00:34:26.429 --> 00:34:27.409
than just going back and

00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:29.190
fixing it and compiling and then using it

00:34:30.431 --> 00:34:31.333
That's also because you have

00:34:31.353 --> 00:34:33.193
a lack of discipline, but that's fine.

00:34:33.614 --> 00:34:36.396
That's true.

00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:39.320
That exact problem that

00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:40.340
you've just described is

00:34:40.601 --> 00:34:42.501
solved by having a build

00:34:42.521 --> 00:34:44.503
pipeline on a CI server.

00:34:44.523 --> 00:34:48.807
No, it's solving by removing the options.

00:34:51.481 --> 00:34:53.126
to force you into doing the right thing.

00:34:53.748 --> 00:34:54.208
Exactly.

00:34:54.228 --> 00:34:54.309
Yeah.

00:34:54.389 --> 00:34:54.809
Yeah.

00:34:54.971 --> 00:34:56.333
Remove the option to.

00:34:56.373 --> 00:34:56.534
Yeah.

00:34:56.574 --> 00:34:58.199
But even, even with a compiled language,

00:34:58.239 --> 00:34:59.782
you should still be building it like

00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:01.621
could like pipeline it

00:35:01.661 --> 00:35:03.481
somewhere and then pull it down to a box.

00:35:03.802 --> 00:35:04.782
Like, yeah, exactly.

00:35:04.842 --> 00:35:06.503
So it'd be like in a, you know,

00:35:06.744 --> 00:35:07.563
a GitHub pipeline.

00:35:07.583 --> 00:35:08.445
What I'm saying is that if

00:35:08.505 --> 00:35:09.644
I've got a script on the box,

00:35:09.744 --> 00:35:11.987
I'll just change it and then move on.

00:35:12.007 --> 00:35:12.306
This is,

00:35:13.007 --> 00:35:16.068
this is why Docker was a revelation.

00:35:16.128 --> 00:35:16.429
No,

00:35:16.528 --> 00:35:18.990
cause it makes everything a binary

00:35:19.170 --> 00:35:21.492
piece of shit though.

00:35:21.632 --> 00:35:23.152
It's not, it's totally fine.

00:35:23.634 --> 00:35:25.193
It's Docker.

00:35:25.295 --> 00:35:26.875
Docker is the rev is one of

00:35:26.914 --> 00:35:27.735
the most revolutionary

00:35:27.755 --> 00:35:28.896
technologies in the last 20 years.

00:35:28.916 --> 00:35:28.976
Um,

00:35:29.797 --> 00:35:30.838
It's got more practical

00:35:30.878 --> 00:35:34.298
fucking utility than blockchain.

00:35:34.518 --> 00:35:35.900
Docker is improving.

00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:37.480
That bar is fucking low, by the way.

00:35:38.740 --> 00:35:39.760
Shooting fish in the barrel.

00:35:42.943 --> 00:35:43.603
What can I tell you?

00:35:44.963 --> 00:35:46.804
Infrastructure people are

00:35:46.844 --> 00:35:48.144
ambivalent towards blockchain.

00:35:48.224 --> 00:35:49.985
Programmers love blockchain.

00:35:50.226 --> 00:35:50.626
Docker.

00:35:51.065 --> 00:35:51.965
Programmers love Docker

00:35:52.025 --> 00:35:52.746
because it solves lots of

00:35:52.786 --> 00:35:53.347
problems we have.

00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:58.320
It solves a shitload of

00:35:58.340 --> 00:35:59.440
problems and also creates a

00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:03.081
shitload of new ones.

00:36:03.101 --> 00:36:03.981
So Serpa,

00:36:04.541 --> 00:36:05.663
I'll tell you what I want to make.

00:36:06.782 --> 00:36:07.483
You might find this

00:36:08.563 --> 00:36:09.244
interesting and

00:36:09.284 --> 00:36:13.545
entertaining and also probably dumb.

00:36:14.885 --> 00:36:16.286
So I want to make a helper

00:36:17.467 --> 00:36:19.887
that you can just load with

00:36:20.407 --> 00:36:22.048
HAProxy when you...

00:36:22.943 --> 00:36:24.784
put on a proxy onto a server

00:36:24.824 --> 00:36:27.164
that you're serving some services from.

00:36:27.885 --> 00:36:29.344
Just a binary that basically

00:36:29.385 --> 00:36:32.706
goes there and watches the

00:36:32.746 --> 00:36:36.067
home directory for known

00:36:36.887 --> 00:36:41.047
Cosmos chain dot directories.

00:36:43.608 --> 00:36:43.867
Hey,

00:36:44.668 --> 00:36:46.449
just watch as if the directory appears

00:36:46.489 --> 00:36:49.409
like dot Juno or whatever

00:36:49.449 --> 00:36:50.050
the Juno one is.

00:36:50.469 --> 00:36:51.150
But so it will

00:36:52.849 --> 00:36:55.471
talk to chain directory or

00:36:55.632 --> 00:36:57.452
even um cosmos directory

00:36:58.793 --> 00:37:00.134
and find out what the dot

00:37:00.153 --> 00:37:01.295
directories are for all of

00:37:01.335 --> 00:37:03.076
the chains and then it will

00:37:03.115 --> 00:37:04.596
just watch the home

00:37:04.635 --> 00:37:07.137
directory of that server

00:37:07.697 --> 00:37:11.179
and if a directory appears

00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:12.701
it will grab the chain

00:37:12.740 --> 00:37:14.922
information from cosmos directory

00:37:15.891 --> 00:37:18.552
and then query the RPCs that

00:37:18.572 --> 00:37:19.572
are on there for the

00:37:20.233 --> 00:37:21.833
highest height in the chain

00:37:22.474 --> 00:37:24.193
compared to the local chain,

00:37:25.195 --> 00:37:27.275
according to the standard ports,

00:37:27.916 --> 00:37:29.135
Polkachu standard ports.

00:37:30.376 --> 00:37:33.177
And then if it starts to lag out,

00:37:33.217 --> 00:37:35.478
report the health to a

00:37:35.518 --> 00:37:39.041
predefined URI for each

00:37:41.981 --> 00:37:44.702
domain that Harproxy is serving.

00:37:46.396 --> 00:37:48.157
What does HAProxy have to do with it?

00:37:48.177 --> 00:37:49.538
Are you just, are you doing the chain?

00:37:49.617 --> 00:37:51.797
Are you doing RPC service?

00:37:51.838 --> 00:37:52.057
Yeah.

00:37:52.077 --> 00:37:53.717
It's just to report health for RPC.

00:37:54.057 --> 00:37:54.898
Yeah.

00:37:54.918 --> 00:37:56.099
Cause I don't like the way.

00:37:56.518 --> 00:37:58.298
To report health for RPC.

00:37:58.418 --> 00:37:58.838
So meaning.

00:37:58.878 --> 00:37:59.478
Yeah.

00:37:59.539 --> 00:37:59.858
Cause you know,

00:37:59.878 --> 00:38:00.798
at the moment we sort of

00:38:00.838 --> 00:38:03.599
look for things like other

00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:05.760
than external monitoring on the server,

00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:08.581
you know, HAProxy looks for that.

00:38:08.601 --> 00:38:09.820
The, the chains caught up.

00:38:09.981 --> 00:38:10.260
Well,

00:38:11.081 --> 00:38:13.202
Cosmos SDK chains don't necessarily

00:38:13.342 --> 00:38:14.922
report truthy values there.

00:38:14.942 --> 00:38:15.222
It's,

00:38:16.309 --> 00:38:18.391
Um, sometimes just bullshit.

00:38:18.650 --> 00:38:20.811
So comparing it to other

00:38:20.851 --> 00:38:22.172
services is probably more

00:38:22.193 --> 00:38:23.034
of a reliable way of

00:38:23.074 --> 00:38:25.215
determining if it's up to

00:38:25.255 --> 00:38:26.396
the head of the network.

00:38:26.976 --> 00:38:27.197
Yeah.

00:38:27.336 --> 00:38:27.757
So,

00:38:27.856 --> 00:38:30.038
and then reporting on a health endpoint

00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:31.760
so that Cloudflare and hard

00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:34.081
proxy can have accurate

00:38:34.101 --> 00:38:36.182
information on a per chain basis.

00:38:36.443 --> 00:38:36.523
Yeah.

00:38:37.563 --> 00:38:39.664
as long as it was yeah but

00:38:39.704 --> 00:38:40.583
then you can use the same

00:38:40.603 --> 00:38:41.443
thing for everything and

00:38:41.483 --> 00:38:42.965
you don't have to have a

00:38:42.985 --> 00:38:44.025
config file or anything you

00:38:44.045 --> 00:38:45.625
just load it when you load

00:38:45.804 --> 00:38:47.445
harproxy this is it's very

00:38:47.485 --> 00:38:48.985
cute that knowledge like

00:38:49.166 --> 00:38:52.447
speed running like and I'll

00:38:52.467 --> 00:38:53.967
just write this simple

00:38:54.047 --> 00:38:55.168
program and it'll run

00:38:55.248 --> 00:38:56.507
everywhere to be absolutely

00:38:56.568 --> 00:38:59.588
fine and uh it's not that

00:38:59.628 --> 00:39:00.929
bad the idea of like being

00:39:00.969 --> 00:39:02.050
able to actually go like

00:39:02.798 --> 00:39:03.659
for it to be smart enough to

00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:04.960
go look at every directory

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000
folder and figure out what

00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:06.621
the hell that is.

00:39:06.661 --> 00:39:07.561
Like that, that's like,

00:39:07.900 --> 00:39:08.722
that's like phase two.

00:39:08.742 --> 00:39:10.882
It'd be, it'd be good.

00:39:10.922 --> 00:39:14.083
That's the MVP, my friend.

00:39:14.103 --> 00:39:15.684
It would be good for it.

00:39:15.864 --> 00:39:16.824
You could just have it

00:39:16.864 --> 00:39:17.925
interrogate the HAProxy

00:39:17.945 --> 00:39:19.706
config file for what you've

00:39:19.726 --> 00:39:20.347
already pre-set up.

00:39:20.407 --> 00:39:21.367
You want to do as much as

00:39:21.407 --> 00:39:23.487
you can locally because the,

00:39:23.608 --> 00:39:24.907
the calling out over the

00:39:24.967 --> 00:39:25.969
network is going to,

00:39:27.737 --> 00:39:28.918
like you're gonna very

00:39:28.998 --> 00:39:30.420
quickly run into fun and

00:39:30.460 --> 00:39:31.661
games with error handling

00:39:31.740 --> 00:39:33.202
from timeouts and all sorts

00:39:33.262 --> 00:39:34.724
of other network based

00:39:34.744 --> 00:39:37.385
shenanigans like sure

00:39:37.405 --> 00:39:38.347
there's a library for that

00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:39.980
Not so much that, but also.

00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:42.380
Well, but also programming paradigm.

00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:42.900
This is why,

00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:44.581
this is why JavaScript is

00:39:44.641 --> 00:39:45.541
fully asynchronous.

00:39:45.621 --> 00:39:46.902
Like it's because it's a

00:39:46.963 --> 00:39:48.382
language that assumes that

00:39:48.402 --> 00:39:49.043
you're always gonna be

00:39:49.063 --> 00:39:49.963
making network calls.

00:39:50.003 --> 00:39:50.684
And so it has to be

00:39:50.724 --> 00:39:52.023
pervasively asynchronous.

00:39:52.864 --> 00:39:52.945
Uh,

00:39:53.045 --> 00:39:54.545
otherwise the whole language locks up

00:39:54.724 --> 00:39:55.905
cuz it's single threaded, right?

00:39:56.005 --> 00:39:57.806
So you, you,

00:39:59.666 --> 00:40:00.547
as soon as you start playing

00:40:00.567 --> 00:40:01.728
around with network connections,

00:40:01.827 --> 00:40:03.307
things get fun pretty quick.

00:40:04.289 --> 00:40:05.309
Um, would be my.

00:40:07.059 --> 00:40:07.880
You know, what do I do?

00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:08.581
Like, you know,

00:40:08.601 --> 00:40:10.903
I've only been doing this a while.

00:40:12.025 --> 00:40:12.246
Sure.

00:40:12.365 --> 00:40:14.047
Maybe I'll do it in JavaScript instead.

00:40:14.489 --> 00:40:15.048
Well, don't do that.

00:40:15.088 --> 00:40:16.090
That wasn't my advice there.

00:40:16.391 --> 00:40:17.972
That's what I heard.

00:40:17.992 --> 00:40:20.135
Make it fucking JavaScript app.

00:40:20.851 --> 00:40:21.612
What is it, the,

00:40:22.771 --> 00:40:23.472
I can't remember what they

00:40:23.492 --> 00:40:23.932
call that thing now.

00:40:24.293 --> 00:40:25.554
Well, actually, so, I mean,

00:40:25.673 --> 00:40:27.556
if you do actually want a piece of advice,

00:40:28.195 --> 00:40:29.376
you should make a small web

00:40:29.396 --> 00:40:31.257
server that runs on that

00:40:31.297 --> 00:40:32.498
host to collect the metrics

00:40:32.539 --> 00:40:34.739
you want and expose a mini API.

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:37.501
And then on a different server, you should,

00:40:38.222 --> 00:40:39.443
if you're calling one service,

00:40:39.483 --> 00:40:40.704
you should call that service,

00:40:41.324 --> 00:40:42.485
your two different health services,

00:40:44.918 --> 00:40:46.278
and collate that information

00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:48.581
on a box where it isn't

00:40:48.601 --> 00:40:50.782
going to have any impact on performance.

00:40:50.842 --> 00:40:52.023
And also, you know, just in general,

00:40:52.083 --> 00:40:53.463
it's good to have that sort

00:40:53.483 --> 00:40:54.425
of stuff hosted elsewhere.

00:40:55.204 --> 00:40:55.885
If it were me,

00:40:56.045 --> 00:40:57.586
I wouldn't even have that as a box.

00:40:57.766 --> 00:40:58.867
I would actually have that

00:40:59.188 --> 00:41:00.768
as an AWS Lambda because

00:41:00.789 --> 00:41:01.909
then I'm not even probably

00:41:01.969 --> 00:41:03.931
paying for it because a million,

00:41:04.572 --> 00:41:05.052
you get a million

00:41:05.092 --> 00:41:06.132
executions before you pay for it.

00:41:07.574 --> 00:41:08.175
So at that point,

00:41:08.295 --> 00:41:09.615
I would probably write it in

00:41:11.889 --> 00:41:13.951
I'd probably write it in Python, Rust,

00:41:15.110 --> 00:41:15.931
or JavaScript.

00:41:15.971 --> 00:41:16.791
Yeah, no JS.

00:41:17.452 --> 00:41:18.771
I think that's the third

00:41:18.791 --> 00:41:20.652
time this week I've heard

00:41:20.693 --> 00:41:21.532
you shill Lambda.

00:41:21.592 --> 00:41:23.554
Are you getting paid by AWS?

00:41:23.773 --> 00:41:24.974
Do you get an agreement?

00:41:25.134 --> 00:41:28.434
No, quite the opposite.

00:41:28.474 --> 00:41:30.315
Lambda is one of those things like Docker.

00:41:30.356 --> 00:41:31.396
It just solves a fucking

00:41:31.416 --> 00:41:34.817
problem I have and does it really well.

00:41:35.056 --> 00:41:36.317
Also, when I'm doing...

00:41:39.161 --> 00:41:40.123
when I'm doing non-crypto

00:41:40.182 --> 00:41:41.422
contracting a lot of my

00:41:41.742 --> 00:41:45.164
contract work is um system

00:41:45.224 --> 00:41:46.284
and back-end automation

00:41:46.744 --> 00:41:48.405
architecture and lambda is

00:41:48.485 --> 00:41:50.586
like a huge part of the

00:41:50.646 --> 00:41:52.027
value out there in my

00:41:52.047 --> 00:41:52.907
opinion anyway that's what

00:41:52.927 --> 00:41:53.688
I've been saying for the

00:41:53.708 --> 00:41:55.668
last like seven eight years

00:41:55.748 --> 00:41:57.090
making money from doing so

00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:00.630
it feels like you have found a hammer

00:42:02.784 --> 00:42:04.347
There are a lot of hammers, Nolan.

00:42:04.387 --> 00:42:05.088
This is just the most

00:42:05.148 --> 00:42:07.130
effective hammer for most business cases.

00:42:07.550 --> 00:42:09.934
But this is your hammer that you found.

00:42:10.634 --> 00:42:12.617
It's one whose hard drives

00:42:12.657 --> 00:42:13.677
don't fucking fail on you

00:42:13.978 --> 00:42:15.659
and whose rambles don't work.

00:42:17.322 --> 00:42:18.063
If you want a thing that

00:42:18.083 --> 00:42:19.965
just executes reliably from

00:42:20.045 --> 00:42:21.246
now till the end of time,

00:42:21.969 --> 00:42:23.971
Imagine one day when AWS

00:42:24.010 --> 00:42:24.992
just shits it and

00:42:25.032 --> 00:42:26.052
everyone's made these

00:42:26.753 --> 00:42:28.235
assumptions that it never will.

00:42:28.615 --> 00:42:29.436
I mean, it has shit.

00:42:29.516 --> 00:42:30.137
It doesn't matter.

00:42:30.237 --> 00:42:31.197
It has shit the best.

00:42:31.557 --> 00:42:32.940
Yeah, it has shit the best.

00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.402
But it relatively rarely does, number one.

00:42:35.842 --> 00:42:37.123
And number two, you have to,

00:42:37.204 --> 00:42:38.445
like core business systems

00:42:38.505 --> 00:42:39.626
in a big enterprise environment,

00:42:40.766 --> 00:42:41.768
if you don't want to fall behind,

00:42:41.788 --> 00:42:43.409
you're rewriting them every 10 years,

00:42:43.750 --> 00:42:43.911
right?

00:42:44.934 --> 00:42:46.335
like AWS is not going to go

00:42:46.375 --> 00:42:47.275
away within 10 years.

00:42:47.396 --> 00:42:48.235
And if your business case

00:42:48.275 --> 00:42:49.155
changes within 10 years,

00:42:49.655 --> 00:42:50.615
when you rewrite it next time,

00:42:50.675 --> 00:42:51.836
you use a different technology.

00:42:51.876 --> 00:42:52.956
Like it's just not a big deal.

00:42:52.976 --> 00:42:55.536
People get super high up about like, Oh no,

00:42:55.797 --> 00:42:57.478
which, which cloud do I use?

00:42:57.518 --> 00:42:58.057
And blah, blah, blah.

00:42:58.077 --> 00:42:58.538
And it's like, no,

00:42:58.557 --> 00:43:00.418
you just literally look at the situation.

00:43:00.438 --> 00:43:01.298
You look at your costs,

00:43:01.338 --> 00:43:02.639
you look at your revenue, you go,

00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:04.298
do I have lots of engineers?

00:43:04.358 --> 00:43:06.139
They insource or they outsource, you know,

00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:06.760
blah, blah, blah.

00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:08.260
You figure it out.

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:09.159
You figure out where you're

00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:10.420
prepared to spend costs for

00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:11.001
the most part.

00:43:11.621 --> 00:43:12.300
And you make a call.

00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:13.981
And eventually that will

00:43:14.001 --> 00:43:14.661
turn out to be wrong.

00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:16.141
And then when that turns out to be wrong,

00:43:16.702 --> 00:43:17.583
you do the next thing

00:43:17.702 --> 00:43:21.326
that's contextually better at that point.

00:43:21.585 --> 00:43:23.088
It ain't too hard.

00:43:24.128 --> 00:43:25.509
Enterprise architecture is just like,

00:43:25.548 --> 00:43:26.070
whatever, man.

00:43:28.351 --> 00:43:28.492
Yeah,

00:43:28.512 --> 00:43:31.454
but what about non-enterprise bastard

00:43:31.514 --> 00:43:34.797
fuck architecture?

00:43:34.856 --> 00:43:35.996
Then you get a million

00:43:36.038 --> 00:43:36.998
executions for free.

00:43:37.077 --> 00:43:39.059
So it's even more beneficial

00:43:39.099 --> 00:43:40.201
to you to run

00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:41.521
infrastructure on Lambda and

00:43:41.621 --> 00:43:42.983
not even fucking pay for it.

00:43:44.085 --> 00:43:45.445
i do like your go idea I

00:43:45.626 --> 00:43:46.847
what would be cooler is if

00:43:47.067 --> 00:43:48.588
you could write an ha proxy

00:43:48.708 --> 00:43:49.608
check script to be able to

00:43:49.628 --> 00:43:52.391
do that instead the only

00:43:52.431 --> 00:43:53.172
issue is like trying to

00:43:53.192 --> 00:43:53.851
figure out how you get to

00:43:53.871 --> 00:43:54.793
the folder directory and

00:43:54.833 --> 00:43:55.373
trying to figure out what

00:43:55.413 --> 00:43:56.213
chain you're on and like

00:43:56.253 --> 00:43:57.333
where to go within cosmos

00:43:57.353 --> 00:43:58.876
directory and but I think

00:43:58.916 --> 00:43:59.795
you could set a variable in

00:43:59.835 --> 00:44:00.936
there and so at each of

00:44:00.996 --> 00:44:02.818
those structures your check

00:44:02.838 --> 00:44:03.998
trip would take in like a

00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:06.380
you can you can pull down

00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.802
you can pull down every

00:44:08.342 --> 00:44:09.242
chain individually

00:44:10.208 --> 00:44:10.728
You could,

00:44:10.909 --> 00:44:12.889
but that check script runs on

00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:14.230
every individual backend.

00:44:14.250 --> 00:44:15.130
So you'd have to figure out

00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:16.650
how the fuck it knows what

00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:17.251
chain you're on.

00:44:17.471 --> 00:44:20.550
And actually, you know it's osmosis,

00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:20.751
right?

00:44:20.811 --> 00:44:22.492
Then from there,

00:44:22.572 --> 00:44:23.371
once you know it's osmosis,

00:44:23.391 --> 00:44:24.211
then you can easily go

00:44:24.271 --> 00:44:25.532
figure out how to go get it

00:44:25.552 --> 00:44:27.233
from Cosmos directory and

00:44:27.253 --> 00:44:27.813
all that kind of shit.

00:44:27.833 --> 00:44:29.313
But I do like the idea of

00:44:29.353 --> 00:44:30.074
being able to... I mean,

00:44:30.094 --> 00:44:31.273
I've always talked about that too, is...

00:44:32.164 --> 00:44:34.246
is like that syncing or not syncing is,

00:44:34.427 --> 00:44:36.467
is not very, um, accurate.

00:44:37.228 --> 00:44:39.329
And unlike what say did with lag status,

00:44:39.429 --> 00:44:40.530
like status and say is like

00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:41.532
extremely helpful, right?

00:44:41.572 --> 00:44:43.572
Because it does its own pairing of like,

00:44:43.773 --> 00:44:44.733
it knows what the height is

00:44:44.773 --> 00:44:46.074
of the peers that it talks into.

00:44:46.255 --> 00:44:47.576
So it knows if the, if the,

00:44:48.456 --> 00:44:49.297
if the note is behind and

00:44:49.317 --> 00:44:50.898
there's nothing else within cosmos,

00:44:50.938 --> 00:44:52.239
I think that exists like that.

00:44:52.298 --> 00:44:53.900
And then, and those notes can get extreme,

00:44:54.021 --> 00:44:55.242
even like you state sync,

00:44:55.302 --> 00:44:56.702
it'll show that it's like false,

00:44:57.143 --> 00:44:57.822
that it's not syncing,

00:44:57.862 --> 00:44:58.364
even though it's in the

00:44:58.384 --> 00:44:59.023
middle of a state sync.

00:44:59.043 --> 00:44:59.905
You're like, what the fuck are you doing,

00:44:59.925 --> 00:45:00.045
dude?

00:45:00.856 --> 00:45:04.777
So I do like that idea.

00:45:04.938 --> 00:45:07.960
So that network that starts

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.039
with A was a perfect

00:45:09.099 --> 00:45:10.260
example the other day where

00:45:11.061 --> 00:45:12.422
almost as soon as you started it,

00:45:12.561 --> 00:45:13.762
it went to not catching up

00:45:14.902 --> 00:45:17.063
because it was a region

00:45:17.184 --> 00:45:18.625
that's on the same fucking network name.

00:45:18.704 --> 00:45:19.644
Right, right.

00:45:20.166 --> 00:45:22.907
And then it was basically in

00:45:22.927 --> 00:45:24.608
consensus mode the whole time catching up,

00:45:24.708 --> 00:45:25.728
which was kind of annoying.

00:45:25.768 --> 00:45:28.550
But that same false flag can happen

00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:31.239
in production for various reasons.

00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:32.141
And then you end up with,

00:45:32.661 --> 00:45:33.960
like even if just all of the,

00:45:34.541 --> 00:45:35.780
all of the peers that you

00:45:36.201 --> 00:45:37.942
happen to be connected to are behind,

00:45:37.961 --> 00:45:39.882
then it'll drop out of

00:45:40.762 --> 00:45:42.862
block sync mode when it

00:45:42.902 --> 00:45:44.083
hits the head of anything

00:45:44.103 --> 00:45:45.563
that you're connected to

00:45:45.623 --> 00:45:47.103
and then you're in consensus mode.

00:45:47.463 --> 00:45:48.903
And it cannot go back into

00:45:49.003 --> 00:45:49.884
block sync mode either.

00:45:50.423 --> 00:45:51.784
So it just always thinks

00:45:51.844 --> 00:45:52.764
it's caught up no matter

00:45:52.804 --> 00:45:53.644
how far it is behind.

00:45:55.204 --> 00:45:58.907
yeah it all sucks yeah but

00:45:58.947 --> 00:46:00.327
so every chain we I think

00:46:00.367 --> 00:46:01.389
every chain we deal with

00:46:01.409 --> 00:46:03.110
that well except for say

00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:06.672
say it's only one yeah it

00:46:06.711 --> 00:46:07.152
has a pretty good

00:46:07.172 --> 00:46:07.793
understanding based on

00:46:07.833 --> 00:46:08.813
peers like if it's not that

00:46:08.833 --> 00:46:09.634
it's lagging or not but

00:46:09.673 --> 00:46:10.454
even in like in the stuff

00:46:10.474 --> 00:46:11.235
that we do on the ethereum

00:46:11.255 --> 00:46:12.795
side most of them those

00:46:12.815 --> 00:46:13.697
have they have no clue

00:46:13.876 --> 00:46:14.657
throughout the head or not

00:46:15.097 --> 00:46:16.818
they have no clue right

00:46:16.838 --> 00:46:18.699
like so like I will even go

00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:20.161
so far as to if you have

00:46:20.201 --> 00:46:21.021
the right setting on kick

00:46:21.041 --> 00:46:22.862
itself out of um

00:46:23.802 --> 00:46:25.103
Well, it'll just restart itself,

00:46:25.123 --> 00:46:26.403
so it goes back into block sync mode.

00:46:27.463 --> 00:46:28.184
Yeah, it has that.

00:46:28.244 --> 00:46:28.985
What is that called?

00:46:29.684 --> 00:46:30.425
Which I think it's not

00:46:30.445 --> 00:46:31.405
really needed anymore with

00:46:31.706 --> 00:46:32.967
self-remediation thing.

00:46:33.007 --> 00:46:34.427
Yeah, I think I always have that off.

00:46:34.806 --> 00:46:35.608
Yeah, I'll do that shit.

00:46:36.568 --> 00:46:37.548
Yeah, I don't have that on either.

00:46:38.168 --> 00:46:38.369
Yeah.

00:46:39.568 --> 00:46:39.969
Honestly,

00:46:39.989 --> 00:46:41.929
any time I get an issue with a say node,

00:46:41.989 --> 00:46:43.411
I just state sync it straight away.

00:46:43.530 --> 00:46:46.172
I don't even see what happened to it.

00:46:46.211 --> 00:46:47.112
I just state sync it.

00:46:48.092 --> 00:46:48.213
Whoa.

00:46:49.554 --> 00:46:50.554
We started actually,

00:46:50.934 --> 00:46:52.054
not this has anything to do with anything,

00:46:52.094 --> 00:46:52.956
but we started actually

00:46:53.016 --> 00:46:54.036
adding a lot more history

00:46:54.077 --> 00:46:56.157
to our say nodes because on the RPC side,

00:46:56.177 --> 00:46:57.818
what we're finding, which is interesting,

00:46:58.478 --> 00:46:59.880
is that you have EVM based

00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:01.840
teams that are moving to say.

00:47:03.521 --> 00:47:06.322
And I think in the Cosmos ecosystem,

00:47:07.063 --> 00:47:08.704
most teams that we work

00:47:08.744 --> 00:47:09.744
with are really concerned

00:47:09.784 --> 00:47:11.025
about like latest block data.

00:47:11.652 --> 00:47:12.994
And so they either have indexers that are,

00:47:13.153 --> 00:47:13.373
you know,

00:47:13.675 --> 00:47:15.856
pulling against the latest RPC

00:47:15.896 --> 00:47:16.637
data and they just want the

00:47:16.657 --> 00:47:17.177
latest height.

00:47:17.237 --> 00:47:17.416
Right.

00:47:17.496 --> 00:47:18.217
That's all they care about.

00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:19.378
Um,

00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:21.019
on the VM side and we're finding teams

00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:21.300
that like,

00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:22.862
they want to query back a month

00:47:23.541 --> 00:47:24.242
or they want to query back

00:47:24.342 --> 00:47:25.182
three or four weeks or

00:47:25.222 --> 00:47:25.764
something like that.

00:47:26.684 --> 00:47:27.184
So what are you doing?

00:47:27.204 --> 00:47:29.085
Like a million, 2 million.

00:47:29.106 --> 00:47:29.467
Yeah.

00:47:29.487 --> 00:47:30.347
We don't keep that much history.

00:47:30.387 --> 00:47:30.547
Right.

00:47:30.586 --> 00:47:33.510
So like, um, the state store,

00:47:33.530 --> 00:47:35.110
I think the state store, um,

00:47:35.570 --> 00:47:36.552
by default saves a hundred

00:47:36.572 --> 00:47:37.092
thousand blocks,

00:47:37.112 --> 00:47:37.793
a hundred thousand blocks

00:47:37.853 --> 00:47:40.414
and say is like six hours.

00:47:41.652 --> 00:47:44.554
yeah something like that um

00:47:45.153 --> 00:47:46.173
so we started saving two

00:47:46.215 --> 00:47:47.094
million blocks which is

00:47:47.155 --> 00:47:49.175
only like five days

00:47:49.795 --> 00:47:52.056
something like that um five

00:47:52.076 --> 00:47:53.036
or six days it's not even a

00:47:53.077 --> 00:47:54.536
week and every team that we

00:47:54.597 --> 00:47:55.657
asked her like hey we want

00:47:56.057 --> 00:47:58.378
we want you know we're

00:47:58.398 --> 00:47:59.498
querying stuff a month old

00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:00.938
and like it doesn't exist

00:48:00.978 --> 00:48:02.780
here this is not geth you

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:06.081
know what I mean it exists over here

00:48:07.835 --> 00:48:08.735
Which is why I've been

00:48:08.755 --> 00:48:09.996
sending you so many fucking leads.

00:48:10.996 --> 00:48:11.815
But part of that, but,

00:48:11.896 --> 00:48:13.195
but even that with that, like,

00:48:13.336 --> 00:48:14.356
but the interesting piece

00:48:14.376 --> 00:48:15.197
about that is that like,

00:48:15.617 --> 00:48:16.436
they're not doing it to

00:48:16.536 --> 00:48:17.518
catch up and index or doing

00:48:17.538 --> 00:48:18.177
it because that's part of

00:48:18.217 --> 00:48:19.157
like how they actually

00:48:19.677 --> 00:48:20.978
architecting their application,

00:48:21.838 --> 00:48:22.998
which is really weird to be,

00:48:23.059 --> 00:48:23.978
have to be able to query

00:48:24.018 --> 00:48:25.000
something back that far.

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:27.000
And so it's just,

00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:28.119
it's just like a resetting

00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:28.880
of what that means.

00:48:29.101 --> 00:48:29.541
You know what I mean?

00:48:30.260 --> 00:48:30.661
Well, I think,

00:48:31.240 --> 00:48:32.400
I think what happens is most

00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:34.242
of these teams will like,

00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:37.121
have their own indexing of

00:48:37.201 --> 00:48:39.041
some description and then

00:48:39.061 --> 00:48:41.161
they may add a feature that

00:48:41.222 --> 00:48:42.463
requires to index something

00:48:42.503 --> 00:48:43.483
different and then they

00:48:43.503 --> 00:48:44.583
have to go back and get

00:48:44.623 --> 00:48:46.304
that information you would

00:48:46.503 --> 00:48:47.184
that's what I thought as

00:48:47.244 --> 00:48:49.244
well but the examples that

00:48:49.264 --> 00:48:50.304
I had were like actually

00:48:50.405 --> 00:48:52.284
application based queries

00:48:52.324 --> 00:48:53.125
that are happening real

00:48:53.164 --> 00:48:54.425
time on the UI that were

00:48:54.465 --> 00:48:56.565
going back three or four weeks of data

00:48:57.521 --> 00:48:58.141
Um, maybe,

00:48:58.440 --> 00:48:59.621
maybe to grab some sort of

00:48:59.782 --> 00:49:01.242
metadata associated to like a,

00:49:01.822 --> 00:49:02.123
I don't know,

00:49:02.262 --> 00:49:03.123
something when something was

00:49:03.242 --> 00:49:04.862
minted on an NFT sign or some shit,

00:49:04.943 --> 00:49:05.284
who knows,

00:49:05.923 --> 00:49:06.724
but it was really weird to

00:49:06.864 --> 00:49:07.963
actually go back that far.

00:49:08.885 --> 00:49:11.505
Um, and, and I have no issues.

00:49:11.565 --> 00:49:12.826
I mean, in that situation,

00:49:12.905 --> 00:49:14.666
like we do keep some, we, I mean,

00:49:14.686 --> 00:49:16.847
honestly, our say no is like, um,

00:49:17.547 --> 00:49:18.887
I guess since ADB has been

00:49:18.907 --> 00:49:19.867
different because before we

00:49:19.887 --> 00:49:20.427
used to keep like a,

00:49:20.628 --> 00:49:21.628
a pretty long history as

00:49:21.668 --> 00:49:22.248
much as we could.

00:49:22.818 --> 00:49:24.019
Like those databases would

00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:26.561
be half a terabyte or 750

00:49:26.561 --> 00:49:27.461
gigs or something like that.

00:49:28.463 --> 00:49:30.483
And now with CDB, it's really changed.

00:49:30.523 --> 00:49:31.204
So I'm going to start

00:49:31.945 --> 00:49:32.625
messing with that and see

00:49:32.644 --> 00:49:33.826
if I want to keep a couple million.

00:49:34.385 --> 00:49:35.867
I mean, I'm keeping 2 million right now,

00:49:35.927 --> 00:49:38.068
but I can maybe keep 4 or 5

00:49:38.068 --> 00:49:39.009
million blocks and kind of

00:49:39.048 --> 00:49:40.230
see what the hell happens with that.

00:49:40.829 --> 00:49:42.690
As long as it's returning

00:49:42.710 --> 00:49:43.512
data at a decent time,

00:49:43.592 --> 00:49:44.271
I don't really care.

00:49:44.291 --> 00:49:45.952
It's not so much the data.

00:49:45.952 --> 00:49:48.054
5 million blocks must be a

00:49:48.135 --> 00:49:49.576
fair bit because, I mean,

00:49:49.635 --> 00:49:51.876
C is only 85 million blocks.

00:49:53.222 --> 00:49:53.483
Yeah.

00:49:53.963 --> 00:49:55.565
No, isn't it more than that?

00:49:55.605 --> 00:49:56.846
It's $100 something?

00:49:56.865 --> 00:49:57.286
$85 million.

00:49:58.306 --> 00:49:58.786
Is that where we are?

00:49:59.648 --> 00:49:59.748
Yeah,

00:49:59.788 --> 00:50:00.668
I've been waiting for the $100

00:50:00.668 --> 00:50:01.208
million party,

00:50:01.228 --> 00:50:02.630
but it seems to fucking...

00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:05.032
Are we having a $100 million party?

00:50:05.612 --> 00:50:07.773
Yeah, $100 million party.

00:50:10.596 --> 00:50:11.777
Brisbane, Australia.

00:50:12.137 --> 00:50:12.878
Is it going to a dollar?

00:50:14.619 --> 00:50:18.402
Yeah, I don't know.

00:50:18.461 --> 00:50:19.282
I've been holding on to that

00:50:19.302 --> 00:50:20.083
stuff for a while now.

00:50:20.103 --> 00:50:20.242
Yeah.

00:50:22.375 --> 00:50:22.974
seeing what's going to

00:50:22.994 --> 00:50:24.215
happen with it I thought it

00:50:24.255 --> 00:50:24.777
might have been a little

00:50:24.797 --> 00:50:25.856
bit different when V2

00:50:26.117 --> 00:50:27.378
launched but I suppose it

00:50:27.418 --> 00:50:29.940
was not at a great uh time

00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:32.581
of the market so well

00:50:32.601 --> 00:50:33.583
everything's really I mean

00:50:33.603 --> 00:50:35.063
it was it was 90 something

00:50:35.083 --> 00:50:36.003
cents after that wasn't it

00:50:36.164 --> 00:50:37.065
after V2 or maybe it was

00:50:37.105 --> 00:50:39.987
before but it's I mean I

00:50:40.007 --> 00:50:42.088
mean right now say it's

00:50:42.128 --> 00:50:42.728
actually holding on the

00:50:42.748 --> 00:50:43.668
best of the stuff that I'm

00:50:43.688 --> 00:50:44.449
looking at because it's

00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:45.431
only down one percent over

00:50:45.451 --> 00:50:46.190
the last seven days so

00:50:46.831 --> 00:50:47.851
should we talk about before um

00:50:49.554 --> 00:50:50.914
Like Ethereum's at 3,300.

00:50:51.514 --> 00:50:53.195
Bitcoin's back at 61,000,

00:50:53.195 --> 00:50:53.954
but I'm guessing that this

00:50:53.974 --> 00:50:54.934
is going under 60 grand.

00:50:55.615 --> 00:50:56.335
I know it's been floating

00:50:56.376 --> 00:50:57.335
around under 60,000.

00:50:57.335 --> 00:50:59.036
So once that gets in the 50s,

00:50:59.195 --> 00:51:01.956
if it gets down to the 45s, I don't know.

00:51:02.097 --> 00:51:03.237
We're going to be in here for a while,

00:51:03.297 --> 00:51:03.577
I think.

00:51:06.838 --> 00:51:08.818
If you know what 13 cents, what the fuck?

00:51:10.635 --> 00:51:10.934
Yeah.

00:51:11.255 --> 00:51:11.494
I mean,

00:51:11.614 --> 00:51:13.255
every time we've made money in crypto,

00:51:13.956 --> 00:51:14.896
it begs the question,

00:51:15.076 --> 00:51:16.577
should we have put it into Bitcoin?

00:51:17.556 --> 00:51:19.797
Like, it would be interesting to know.

00:51:19.817 --> 00:51:20.697
I have no idea how you'd

00:51:20.717 --> 00:51:22.057
even work out that calculation.

00:51:22.637 --> 00:51:24.137
But if I had like a

00:51:24.177 --> 00:51:25.478
comprehensive enough spreadsheet,

00:51:25.858 --> 00:51:26.378
it would be quite

00:51:26.418 --> 00:51:27.119
interesting to be like

00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:29.300
every time we as a company

00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:30.300
have created a taxable

00:51:30.340 --> 00:51:31.480
event as a result of crypto

00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:32.981
sale or movement or trade.

00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:35.300
What if we rewrote all of

00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:37.282
them to be average price on

00:51:37.322 --> 00:51:38.242
that day of Bitcoin?

00:51:38.945 --> 00:51:40.525
And then imagine that we held it.

00:51:41.786 --> 00:51:42.847
I think we'd be on a beach now.

00:51:43.206 --> 00:51:44.027
I think we'd be on a beach.

00:51:44.748 --> 00:51:45.568
That's my suspicion.

00:51:46.148 --> 00:51:46.528
Robert says,

00:51:46.568 --> 00:51:47.349
literally no one cares about

00:51:47.389 --> 00:51:48.409
V2 or the tech except for

00:51:48.429 --> 00:51:49.010
people getting paid.

00:51:49.030 --> 00:51:50.231
I don't know if that's exactly true.

00:51:50.490 --> 00:51:51.050
We have seen...

00:51:52.585 --> 00:51:54.766
The one thing I have seen on the IBM side,

00:51:54.786 --> 00:51:56.688
since we're talking about SAIT,

00:51:56.708 --> 00:51:58.510
we can talk about SAIT.

00:51:58.690 --> 00:51:59.612
The number of teams that

00:51:59.652 --> 00:52:02.974
have come in with Solidity versus,

00:52:03.215 --> 00:52:04.416
or whatever the hell,

00:52:04.436 --> 00:52:05.458
I guess it was Solidity or

00:52:05.478 --> 00:52:06.378
whatever the hell they're writing it,

00:52:06.878 --> 00:52:08.900
versus on the Wasm side is like 2x,

00:52:09.242 --> 00:52:09.902
maybe 3x.

00:52:10.722 --> 00:52:11.943
The amount of actual...

00:52:14.297 --> 00:52:15.478
I don't know about user engagement,

00:52:15.699 --> 00:52:17.239
but our traffic is way

00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:18.601
higher now on the VM side

00:52:18.621 --> 00:52:19.762
than it has been on the, on the,

00:52:20.001 --> 00:52:21.103
on the native quote unquote

00:52:21.902 --> 00:52:24.485
side when it was, um, back with say, um,

00:52:25.626 --> 00:52:28.286
on like the traditional wasm side.

00:52:28.367 --> 00:52:29.447
So like it,

00:52:29.628 --> 00:52:30.409
I don't know if it's bringing

00:52:30.449 --> 00:52:33.311
in new users so much Rama, um, or if it's,

00:52:34.251 --> 00:52:34.871
if it's creating an

00:52:34.891 --> 00:52:36.512
environment that allows

00:52:36.652 --> 00:52:38.373
different teams or if it's just new, um,

00:52:40.492 --> 00:52:41.856
And he says, I'm not buying, say,

00:52:41.896 --> 00:52:42.659
because of V2.

00:52:43.601 --> 00:52:44.222
I agree with you,

00:52:44.262 --> 00:52:45.166
but I don't know if you're

00:52:45.186 --> 00:52:45.887
the target user.

00:52:46.690 --> 00:52:47.853
Like the target user is...

00:52:48.811 --> 00:52:50.672
EVM-based users who understand these tools,

00:52:50.753 --> 00:52:53.393
who have DEXs that, like, you know,

00:52:53.434 --> 00:52:55.094
I think, is it Uniswap?

00:52:55.114 --> 00:52:55.815
I forget what we talked about.

00:52:55.835 --> 00:52:56.916
Is it Uniswap coming to Say?

00:52:56.976 --> 00:52:57.976
Or are they adding Say?

00:52:57.996 --> 00:52:59.836
Yeah.

00:53:00.157 --> 00:53:01.197
That's the user base.

00:53:02.099 --> 00:53:03.199
Like, that's the user base.

00:53:03.898 --> 00:53:07.320
And I think that idea of bringing in,

00:53:07.501 --> 00:53:07.740
you know,

00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:09.461
however many million new users

00:53:09.561 --> 00:53:10.802
who are looking for low-gas

00:53:10.902 --> 00:53:12.623
options to be able to do blah, blah, blah,

00:53:12.983 --> 00:53:13.704
I'm not saying it hasn't

00:53:13.724 --> 00:53:14.364
been there in the past.

00:53:14.445 --> 00:53:15.724
And by blah, blah, blah,

00:53:15.764 --> 00:53:17.146
you mean degen trades.

00:53:17.166 --> 00:53:17.465
Yeah.

00:53:17.954 --> 00:53:19.016
It could be, yeah.

00:53:19.155 --> 00:53:22.177
And it's not like this is the first... Yes,

00:53:22.438 --> 00:53:23.217
and it's not like this is

00:53:23.237 --> 00:53:24.318
the first chain that has a

00:53:24.358 --> 00:53:26.681
low gas situation and it allows EVM.

00:53:26.701 --> 00:53:28.061
I mean, we talked about EVMOS before,

00:53:28.121 --> 00:53:28.501
right?

00:53:28.541 --> 00:53:30.123
Those are the same type of things.

00:53:30.163 --> 00:53:30.422
Yeah,

00:53:30.483 --> 00:53:33.045
but it does have parallelism and it

00:53:33.125 --> 00:53:34.385
is fast as fuck.

00:53:34.405 --> 00:53:36.806
The only other thing as fast is Solana.

00:53:37.708 --> 00:53:40.489
Yeah, and again, like I said before,

00:53:40.510 --> 00:53:41.969
we led this off.

00:53:42.451 --> 00:53:44.271
Technology alone doesn't do shit.

00:53:44.851 --> 00:53:45.492
The fact that it's

00:53:45.492 --> 00:53:48.097
30 second blocks or 15

00:53:48.097 --> 00:53:52.199
seconds or 0.3 seconds is

00:53:52.298 --> 00:53:53.659
not going to be the differentiator.

00:53:53.780 --> 00:53:55.400
Like it's not what it is, right?

00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:57.460
It's gotta be users and it's

00:53:57.481 --> 00:53:59.161
gotta be valid applications

00:53:59.222 --> 00:54:01.043
that bring that are cool,

00:54:01.103 --> 00:54:02.364
that are actually valuable.

00:54:03.224 --> 00:54:05.704
Um, so the technology is not enough,

00:54:06.045 --> 00:54:06.206
right?

00:54:06.266 --> 00:54:07.065
The same reason that we talk

00:54:07.085 --> 00:54:08.347
about at most in June, when we,

00:54:08.427 --> 00:54:10.186
when we kick this off, like that,

00:54:10.387 --> 00:54:11.188
that that's not.

00:54:11.666 --> 00:54:12.288
that's not enough.

00:54:12.748 --> 00:54:14.909
So, um, is it, is it,

00:54:14.989 --> 00:54:17.672
is it enough to be attractive for,

00:54:18.092 --> 00:54:18.492
you know,

00:54:19.693 --> 00:54:21.574
teams that have a significant

00:54:21.715 --> 00:54:23.315
user base to be able to be

00:54:23.335 --> 00:54:24.556
able to use the technology?

00:54:25.137 --> 00:54:26.838
I think it's starting that way,

00:54:26.878 --> 00:54:27.840
but we'll see kind of what

00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:28.460
happens with it.

00:54:28.481 --> 00:54:28.601
Right.

00:54:29.501 --> 00:54:32.704
Um, and, and, you know, we'll, we'll see.

00:54:33.565 --> 00:54:34.204
I guess it's like, well,

00:54:34.264 --> 00:54:35.847
it's also like a weird toss up, isn't it?

00:54:35.887 --> 00:54:37.748
Like there's like this

00:54:37.867 --> 00:54:41.170
intersection of a few concepts, like,

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:51.143
you know, the TVL and like it, okay.

00:54:51.963 --> 00:54:52.483
In essence,

00:54:52.523 --> 00:54:53.684
it's basically that it needs to

00:54:53.724 --> 00:54:56.144
be already happening enough

00:54:56.724 --> 00:54:58.045
to be worth moving to,

00:54:58.606 --> 00:54:59.606
but you also need to

00:54:59.686 --> 00:55:02.527
attract projects that have

00:55:02.567 --> 00:55:03.947
a cache enough that they

00:55:03.987 --> 00:55:05.688
will bring people with them

00:55:06.349 --> 00:55:07.409
for their use case.

00:55:08.028 --> 00:55:09.269
So it's just like inherently

00:55:09.289 --> 00:55:10.349
chicken and egg, isn't it?

00:55:10.489 --> 00:55:11.431
If you're a platform,

00:55:12.213 --> 00:55:13.735
that's not developing your own apps.

00:55:13.755 --> 00:55:16.898
I don't know.

00:55:17.237 --> 00:55:17.478
Yeah.

00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:18.358
Maybe.

00:55:18.478 --> 00:55:18.719
Maybe.

00:55:18.818 --> 00:55:19.219
I mean,

00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:20.260
maybe there's some way of squaring

00:55:20.300 --> 00:55:20.740
that circle.

00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:21.282
I don't know.

00:55:22.463 --> 00:55:23.003
Yeah.

00:55:23.284 --> 00:55:24.485
But I think if somebody figured it out,

00:55:24.545 --> 00:55:24.945
then maybe

00:55:27.923 --> 00:55:28.864
yeah there may be more

00:55:28.905 --> 00:55:29.786
chains wouldn't be uh

00:55:30.746 --> 00:55:31.567
languishing in the where

00:55:31.586 --> 00:55:32.869
are they now file um

00:55:33.028 --> 00:55:38.753
basically so it's always a

00:55:38.773 --> 00:55:39.675
good spinal tap reference

00:55:39.715 --> 00:55:40.655
in there somewhere yeah

00:55:40.695 --> 00:55:41.496
it's a good reference it

00:55:41.516 --> 00:55:44.858
was a good reference um so

00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:50.164
yeah anyway so hey it um

00:55:50.643 --> 00:55:51.425
speaking of where are they

00:55:51.465 --> 00:55:53.827
now file I guess

00:55:54.740 --> 00:55:56.181
Yeah, no news this week.

00:55:56.302 --> 00:55:56.762
What the hell?

00:55:56.981 --> 00:55:58.523
Where's our news researcher?

00:55:58.603 --> 00:56:01.264
Well, to be fair, we haven't paid him.

00:56:01.905 --> 00:56:02.365
For what?

00:56:02.405 --> 00:56:02.985
For June?

00:56:03.005 --> 00:56:07.088
No, for May.

00:56:07.628 --> 00:56:08.429
Oh, for May?

00:56:09.530 --> 00:56:10.010
That's not true.

00:56:10.050 --> 00:56:10.469
Is that true?

00:56:11.130 --> 00:56:13.472
Yeah.

00:56:13.992 --> 00:56:15.994
The payment went through in May,

00:56:16.034 --> 00:56:17.153
but that was for April.

00:56:17.173 --> 00:56:20.076
We're perpetually like two weeks behind.

00:56:20.735 --> 00:56:21.217
Oh, okay.

00:56:21.257 --> 00:56:22.217
Well, we should get that up.

00:56:22.737 --> 00:56:23.498
Do we have any money in there?

00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:25.601
$600 in there.

00:56:25.621 --> 00:56:25.601
$600.

00:56:26.282 --> 00:56:31.146
What are we doing?

00:56:31.286 --> 00:56:33.728
Get that best-in-class DAO

00:56:33.768 --> 00:56:34.668
technology on it.

00:56:35.971 --> 00:56:37.172
I need to get rid of all of

00:56:37.192 --> 00:56:38.572
that $600 before the end of

00:56:38.592 --> 00:56:40.034
the month so that I have no

00:56:40.094 --> 00:56:41.596
interest in the game of

00:56:41.655 --> 00:56:42.896
nodes DAO so that it

00:56:42.936 --> 00:56:43.878
doesn't affect my tax.

00:56:44.418 --> 00:56:45.940
Does this affect your tax?

00:56:46.059 --> 00:56:47.141
Are you putting this in there?

00:56:48.894 --> 00:56:50.215
well I won't you're not I

00:56:50.235 --> 00:56:53.597
mean well I won't I won't

00:56:53.617 --> 00:56:55.838
that's true right it's usdc

00:56:55.858 --> 00:56:58.739
dude I i ignore all

00:56:58.878 --> 00:57:00.519
accounts under all accounts

00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:01.561
under one thousand dollars

00:57:01.581 --> 00:57:02.621
don't get included in my

00:57:02.641 --> 00:57:04.222
tax yeah if you're tracking

00:57:04.262 --> 00:57:05.661
accounts associated so all

00:57:05.702 --> 00:57:09.264
cosmos chains yeah that was

00:57:09.324 --> 00:57:13.905
my design yeah exactly oh

00:57:13.925 --> 00:57:15.067
there is an open prop we do

00:57:15.086 --> 00:57:15.867
have an open prop right

00:57:17.539 --> 00:57:18.519
I put it in the comments

00:57:18.539 --> 00:57:19.440
just before I opened it

00:57:19.460 --> 00:57:22.563
during this live stream.

00:57:22.583 --> 00:57:24.284
Why is this on a ledger?

00:57:24.905 --> 00:57:26.786
Let's get the ledger out.

00:57:26.867 --> 00:57:27.347
Come on.

00:57:29.028 --> 00:57:29.989
Maybe we'll get some news

00:57:30.028 --> 00:57:31.050
before the end of the episode.

00:57:31.170 --> 00:57:33.672
It's not a DAO experience.

00:57:33.771 --> 00:57:35.134
It's not a DAO experience

00:57:35.173 --> 00:57:36.775
unless you're being peer pressured,

00:57:37.014 --> 00:57:39.297
usually on a video call to sign a thing.

00:57:39.936 --> 00:57:40.378
To be fair,

00:57:42.398 --> 00:57:44.521
our Juno ballot has like $4 on it,

00:57:44.561 --> 00:57:45.722
so I pulled it off the ledger.

00:57:45.961 --> 00:57:46.722
I don't give a shit.

00:57:47.708 --> 00:57:49.047
fucking taking those keys right off.

00:57:49.068 --> 00:57:49.047
$4.

00:57:49.507 --> 00:57:51.449
Free up that legend.

00:57:51.728 --> 00:57:52.389
I don't give a shit.

00:57:52.429 --> 00:57:52.668
Yeah.

00:57:52.829 --> 00:57:54.250
It's in a box somewhere.

00:57:54.269 --> 00:57:55.570
All right.

00:57:55.630 --> 00:57:55.969
Let's see.

00:57:56.090 --> 00:57:56.690
Voting yes.

00:57:57.251 --> 00:57:57.751
Here we go.

00:57:58.271 --> 00:57:59.791
Here we go.

00:58:00.351 --> 00:58:00.791
Real time.

00:58:01.871 --> 00:58:02.711
The only person who voted

00:58:02.771 --> 00:58:03.791
was Jimmy Smallballs.

00:58:07.452 --> 00:58:08.213
There you go, Rama.

00:58:08.574 --> 00:58:09.974
In approximately one minute,

00:58:10.014 --> 00:58:10.914
you'll be able to go buy

00:58:10.954 --> 00:58:13.074
yourself a packet of cigarettes.

00:58:13.474 --> 00:58:13.855
There you go.

00:58:15.389 --> 00:58:16.990
hello we're paying in usdc

00:58:17.030 --> 00:58:18.291
we're not paying in juno

00:58:18.311 --> 00:58:19.572
it'd probably be more than

00:58:19.632 --> 00:58:20.972
a packet of cigarettes real

00:58:21.193 --> 00:58:22.572
we should oh man cigarettes

00:58:22.612 --> 00:58:23.813
in australia is like 100

00:58:23.813 --> 00:58:27.434
bucks that government's

00:58:27.574 --> 00:58:28.476
really got their claws in

00:58:28.496 --> 00:58:32.458
that um can we why can't I

00:58:33.038 --> 00:58:36.338
uh execute on this we have

00:58:36.418 --> 00:58:37.980
quorum yeah I don't know it

00:58:38.019 --> 00:58:39.420
said that we had quorum

00:58:40.250 --> 00:58:41.731
I don't know what's going on there.

00:58:41.751 --> 00:58:42.572
They say you get quorum from

00:58:42.711 --> 00:58:44.233
one fucking person, but I don't know.

00:58:44.552 --> 00:58:46.514
Our quorum is 20% and a four person.

00:58:46.534 --> 00:58:47.135
That makes sense.

00:58:47.375 --> 00:58:48.076
That's good call.

00:58:48.396 --> 00:58:49.076
Who did that?

00:58:49.817 --> 00:58:52.539
It's like, yeah, anyone can.

00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:53.599
It's just anyone.

00:58:53.619 --> 00:58:54.320
It doesn't matter.

00:58:54.579 --> 00:58:57.021
Let's fucking drain it.

00:58:57.501 --> 00:58:58.182
I don't give a shit.

00:58:59.003 --> 00:58:59.222
Yeah.

00:58:59.784 --> 00:59:00.523
Yeah.

00:59:01.925 --> 00:59:03.045
So do we want to talk about

00:59:04.007 --> 00:59:04.786
chain abstraction?

00:59:05.507 --> 00:59:05.728
Sure.

00:59:06.168 --> 00:59:06.548
What do you got?

00:59:07.409 --> 00:59:08.369
Well, so, I mean, there are,

00:59:11.168 --> 00:59:12.829
there are a bunch of teams

00:59:13.570 --> 00:59:17.032
these days that are getting into the,

00:59:17.793 --> 00:59:19.074
the chain abstraction and

00:59:19.414 --> 00:59:21.074
they're collaborating and writing,

00:59:21.916 --> 00:59:24.597
you know, blogs together,

00:59:24.657 --> 00:59:25.458
which is good to see.

00:59:26.237 --> 00:59:31.681
So I think in particular there is,

00:59:34.103 --> 00:59:35.083
you've got Zion,

00:59:35.684 --> 00:59:37.184
which is doing chain abstraction.

00:59:37.224 --> 00:59:38.445
You've got Cedar,

00:59:39.715 --> 00:59:41.896
You've got C to whatever.

00:59:43.016 --> 00:59:44.378
There is no A in that word.

00:59:45.998 --> 00:59:46.679
There is.

00:59:46.778 --> 00:59:47.980
There is.

00:59:49.539 --> 00:59:53.961
There is an A. Okay.

00:59:54.061 --> 00:59:54.603
Executed.

00:59:55.402 --> 00:59:55.983
Particle.

00:59:56.864 --> 00:59:57.724
You've got particle.

00:59:58.264 --> 00:59:58.423
Yeah.

00:59:58.923 --> 00:59:59.965
Particle.

01:00:00.985 --> 01:00:02.065
That's not chain obstruction though,

01:00:02.085 --> 01:00:02.226
right?

01:00:03.485 --> 01:00:03.666
Yeah.

01:00:03.686 --> 01:00:04.547
Particle doing chain.

01:00:04.606 --> 01:00:05.246
Oh, you're right.

01:00:05.266 --> 01:00:05.547
You're right.

01:00:05.567 --> 01:00:05.887
My bad.

01:00:06.188 --> 01:00:06.887
Chain obstruction.

01:00:06.907 --> 01:00:06.887
100%.

01:00:06.947 --> 01:00:07.068
Yeah.

01:00:07.088 --> 01:00:07.208
Yeah.

01:00:10.478 --> 01:00:11.398
there's another one that I

01:00:11.458 --> 01:00:16.362
love as well uh I want to

01:00:16.402 --> 01:00:21.324
say ah I can look this one

01:00:21.364 --> 01:00:23.987
what what's uh ilian what

01:00:24.027 --> 01:00:25.768
is he what network was that

01:00:26.347 --> 01:00:28.690
that's particle leanne is

01:00:28.769 --> 01:00:30.550
it oh nillian that's

01:00:30.590 --> 01:00:34.132
million sorry is that what

01:00:34.152 --> 01:00:35.534
you're talking about yes

01:00:37.375 --> 01:00:38.474
No, Ilan.

01:00:38.956 --> 01:00:39.896
What network's Ilan?

01:00:42.936 --> 01:00:45.117
It is... The guy, the guy, Ilan.

01:00:45.257 --> 01:00:46.177
I know who you're talking about, dude.

01:00:46.217 --> 01:00:46.559
Hold on.

01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:49.659
It is Nillian.

01:00:50.619 --> 01:00:51.460
That's Nillian, is it?

01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:52.880
Okay, well, Nillian.

01:00:53.061 --> 01:00:54.340
Yeah, Nillian are doing chain abstraction.

01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:55.061
Yes, that's Nillian.

01:00:55.121 --> 01:00:56.342
That's chain abstraction as well.

01:00:56.541 --> 01:00:56.702
Yes.

01:00:56.922 --> 01:00:58.463
Yeah, so, I mean,

01:00:59.003 --> 01:01:00.384
that's a fair chunk of teams.

01:01:01.724 --> 01:01:02.804
Even in our small sphere,

01:01:02.824 --> 01:01:03.684
that's a big chunk of teams.

01:01:03.925 --> 01:01:04.125
Yeah.

01:01:04.344 --> 01:01:05.126
Yeah, so...

01:01:06.492 --> 01:01:07.873
They've put together an article here.

01:01:07.934 --> 01:01:08.914
I'll drop the link in the,

01:01:09.614 --> 01:01:11.175
in the chat down here, but, um,

01:01:11.775 --> 01:01:12.737
I haven't read through it all yet,

01:01:12.757 --> 01:01:14.217
so I can't really talk too much about it,

01:01:14.297 --> 01:01:15.418
but I thought you guys

01:01:15.438 --> 01:01:16.398
might've been on top of

01:01:16.418 --> 01:01:18.039
what's going on there, but I think,

01:01:18.360 --> 01:01:19.141
I think it's coming at a

01:01:19.181 --> 01:01:21.081
time where this is needed.

01:01:21.782 --> 01:01:22.663
I don't like any

01:01:22.702 --> 01:01:24.945
implementation of chain

01:01:25.065 --> 01:01:27.326
abstraction is needed.

01:01:28.306 --> 01:01:30.507
Um, so, you know, shove things forward.

01:01:30.527 --> 01:01:31.789
I think no one wants to come

01:01:32.349 --> 01:01:33.610
and deal with keys and shit.

01:01:34.510 --> 01:01:36.032
Um, have you used any of these before?

01:01:36.733 --> 01:01:40.496
Have you used Zion

01:01:40.536 --> 01:01:41.617
associated to the test and

01:01:41.637 --> 01:01:41.996
all that stuff?

01:01:42.978 --> 01:01:43.398
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:43.418 --> 01:01:45.300
So I've used some Zion

01:01:45.340 --> 01:01:46.400
implementations of it.

01:01:46.481 --> 01:01:49.041
And it is pretty smooth, to be honest.

01:01:50.443 --> 01:01:52.744
But it does rely on third-party services,

01:01:52.804 --> 01:01:54.166
I think, at the moment still.

01:01:54.365 --> 01:01:57.027
I think talking with Nillian,

01:01:57.068 --> 01:02:01.891
they were looking at sort

01:02:01.931 --> 01:02:03.572
of some ways of...

01:02:04.590 --> 01:02:05.791
getting around that in the

01:02:05.871 --> 01:02:10.653
future so um yeah I mean I

01:02:10.693 --> 01:02:11.434
mean maybe it's better to

01:02:11.474 --> 01:02:12.695
talk about this next week

01:02:12.735 --> 01:02:13.735
after I've had time to read

01:02:13.755 --> 01:02:14.715
this article I think which

01:02:15.536 --> 01:02:16.737
was an overnight thing so

01:02:16.876 --> 01:02:18.197
what's it what can you like

01:02:18.217 --> 01:02:19.097
the article we'll link the

01:02:19.137 --> 01:02:19.818
article in the show notes

01:02:20.358 --> 01:02:22.018
it is in the uh I linked it

01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:24.280
in the chat though um so

01:02:24.300 --> 01:02:24.960
yeah but we'll put it in

01:02:24.981 --> 01:02:26.541
the show notes as well I

01:02:26.561 --> 01:02:27.442
mean we we've talked about

01:02:27.461 --> 01:02:29.463
this we're at consensus it

01:02:29.483 --> 01:02:31.003
was obviously a big topic it came out of

01:02:32.155 --> 01:02:33.097
when we were in Austin, right?

01:02:33.217 --> 01:02:35.478
Like there's a ZK was a big topic.

01:02:35.518 --> 01:02:36.358
We talked about AI.

01:02:36.398 --> 01:02:37.858
We talked about abstraction.

01:02:37.938 --> 01:02:39.699
And I think out of those three,

01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:42.780
I'm kind of most curious

01:02:42.900 --> 01:02:43.782
and interested in

01:02:43.842 --> 01:02:44.882
abstraction because I think

01:02:44.981 --> 01:02:45.922
that is the one that

01:02:46.123 --> 01:02:47.403
increases the user base.

01:02:48.423 --> 01:02:49.744
Um, well, yeah,

01:02:49.804 --> 01:02:50.644
from the one that's going

01:02:50.664 --> 01:02:51.865
to remove the friction of

01:02:51.885 --> 01:02:55.128
new users or the friction on users.

01:02:55.347 --> 01:02:55.467
Yeah.

01:02:55.487 --> 01:02:56.467
And I think even like what

01:02:56.668 --> 01:02:57.809
phrase working on in terms of,

01:02:59.166 --> 01:03:00.688
in terms of payments or in

01:03:00.748 --> 01:03:06.197
terms of um the ability to

01:03:07.378 --> 01:03:12.204
perform you know sit be

01:03:12.244 --> 01:03:14.849
able to perform um uh

01:03:15.532 --> 01:03:16.652
typical transactions that

01:03:16.773 --> 01:03:19.855
allow for ease of use

01:03:19.914 --> 01:03:21.456
across different ecosystems

01:03:21.536 --> 01:03:23.137
and different types of users.

01:03:23.717 --> 01:03:25.918
I think that's obviously one

01:03:25.938 --> 01:03:26.539
of the most important

01:03:26.579 --> 01:03:28.300
pieces of that piece, right?

01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:30.121
Which is to take all that,

01:03:30.862 --> 01:03:31.961
this bullshit that we know,

01:03:32.081 --> 01:03:33.682
which is a huge body of

01:03:33.722 --> 01:03:34.643
bullshit that we know, right?

01:03:35.447 --> 01:03:37.108
as individuals in terms of how to move,

01:03:37.228 --> 01:03:38.367
like even when we try to

01:03:38.427 --> 01:03:39.367
get rid of rewards or

01:03:39.407 --> 01:03:40.568
something else like that, our commissions,

01:03:40.588 --> 01:03:41.668
like sometimes you get,

01:03:41.768 --> 01:03:43.809
even as a validator in a space,

01:03:43.849 --> 01:03:45.070
you can get situations where you're like,

01:03:45.090 --> 01:03:46.190
how the fuck am I getting rid of this?

01:03:46.291 --> 01:03:47.871
Like, where am I getting, how am I,

01:03:47.891 --> 01:03:49.271
how am I moving this cash?

01:03:49.331 --> 01:03:49.572
And like,

01:03:49.972 --> 01:03:51.012
what's the cheapest way for me to

01:03:51.032 --> 01:03:51.793
be able to do that?

01:03:51.833 --> 01:03:53.132
And like, how do I do that and be able to,

01:03:53.753 --> 01:03:54.634
to be able to,

01:03:56.273 --> 01:03:57.454
to get in a situation where

01:03:57.974 --> 01:03:59.755
I want to remove the extra,

01:03:59.775 --> 01:04:01.315
like get rid of this ability to,

01:04:02.528 --> 01:04:03.449
know all this information

01:04:03.489 --> 01:04:05.652
associated to chain

01:04:05.672 --> 01:04:06.994
dynamics and all that kind of stuff.

01:04:07.474 --> 01:04:08.637
I do think it's an important

01:04:08.657 --> 01:04:10.780
piece to grow the user base

01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:11.280
and everything else.

01:04:12.521 --> 01:04:13.722
There is a couple of things

01:04:13.802 --> 01:04:16.387
to this abstraction thing.

01:04:16.967 --> 01:04:17.568
The first one,

01:04:17.608 --> 01:04:19.309
which is what we're talking

01:04:19.329 --> 01:04:20.311
about a second ago with

01:04:22.702 --> 01:04:25.164
with Zion is that I think

01:04:25.204 --> 01:04:26.865
Zion is more account

01:04:26.965 --> 01:04:28.867
abstraction is their

01:04:29.248 --> 01:04:30.449
implementation at the moment,

01:04:30.530 --> 01:04:33.632
which is the doing away with the words,

01:04:33.934 --> 01:04:34.094
right?

01:04:35.217 --> 01:04:37.739
Um, and, and they're doing like, you know,

01:04:37.978 --> 01:04:39.581
I'm not sure if Zion in particular,

01:04:39.601 --> 01:04:40.722
but teams I've talked to

01:04:40.742 --> 01:04:41.983
are doing this in various

01:04:42.023 --> 01:04:44.585
different ways and implementations of,

01:04:44.744 --> 01:04:45.025
you know,

01:04:45.065 --> 01:04:48.469
different two FA things or an email thing,

01:04:48.648 --> 01:04:49.449
or, you know,

01:04:49.489 --> 01:04:51.572
just various ways and means

01:04:51.632 --> 01:04:52.552
to do away with the,

01:04:53.353 --> 01:04:56.016
the 12 and 24 word thing so that,

01:04:56.175 --> 01:04:57.077
you know, it's repeatable.

01:04:57.117 --> 01:04:58.557
You can log in with your email or,

01:04:58.918 --> 01:04:59.478
or what have you.

01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:00.360
Um,

01:05:01.512 --> 01:05:03.253
But the other part to it is the action.

01:05:03.333 --> 01:05:05.054
So when they talk about chain abstraction,

01:05:05.074 --> 01:05:05.835
they're talking about

01:05:05.894 --> 01:05:09.556
removing more or less, I guess,

01:05:09.596 --> 01:05:10.436
within the wallet,

01:05:10.835 --> 01:05:16.338
the need to be connected to

01:05:16.398 --> 01:05:17.918
many different things to

01:05:17.958 --> 01:05:19.699
see all of your assets, et cetera.

01:05:21.018 --> 01:05:23.041
you know basically like all

01:05:23.061 --> 01:05:25.081
of your stuff from

01:05:25.161 --> 01:05:27.463
everywhere is reported in

01:05:27.483 --> 01:05:29.204
the one place and if you

01:05:29.246 --> 01:05:30.947
want to and you know use

01:05:31.007 --> 01:05:32.007
it's a whole all about the

01:05:32.088 --> 01:05:33.208
user experience and and

01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:35.510
being able to like you know if you're on

01:05:36.650 --> 01:05:36.990
say,

01:05:37.431 --> 01:05:40.211
and you want to buy some shit coin on say,

01:05:41.592 --> 01:05:42.652
and you go to your wallet

01:05:42.793 --> 01:05:43.532
and you just say,

01:05:43.873 --> 01:05:48.054
buy this shit coin with 100 USDC.

01:05:48.614 --> 01:05:49.195
Well, you know,

01:05:49.235 --> 01:05:51.014
that USDC might be sourced.

01:05:51.416 --> 01:05:52.956
Say half of it comes from

01:05:52.976 --> 01:05:55.137
Agoric and the other half comes from,

01:05:55.157 --> 01:05:57.157
I don't know, Zion.

01:05:57.878 --> 01:06:00.737
And then it executes on say.

01:06:00.797 --> 01:06:02.378
I think that's like the whole thing.

01:06:02.778 --> 01:06:03.920
thing behind chain

01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.860
abstraction is that you

01:06:05.340 --> 01:06:06.981
your assets are available

01:06:08.063 --> 01:06:09.143
and it just all happens in

01:06:09.164 --> 01:06:10.204
the background without you

01:06:10.244 --> 01:06:11.686
having to physically move

01:06:11.706 --> 01:06:13.027
around just to use it and

01:06:13.286 --> 01:06:14.047
you know you can report

01:06:14.086 --> 01:06:15.007
everything in the one place

01:06:15.628 --> 01:06:17.769
so I mean that will be good

01:06:17.909 --> 01:06:19.532
but it also leaves the door

01:06:19.632 --> 01:06:20.452
open to just have

01:06:21.353 --> 01:06:23.173
fragmentation of your all

01:06:23.233 --> 01:06:24.114
over the place without you

01:06:24.155 --> 01:06:25.016
really knowing where it is

01:06:25.076 --> 01:06:27.016
as well so yeah I mean

01:06:27.056 --> 01:06:28.237
their their premise is

01:06:28.677 --> 01:06:30.278
basically the same as what

01:06:30.298 --> 01:06:32.240
I'm literally working on for my phd but

01:06:32.878 --> 01:06:34.259
they've come to fully the

01:06:34.318 --> 01:06:35.318
opposite conclusion.

01:06:35.338 --> 01:06:36.820
They've gone like,

01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:38.601
they've gone like the S the

01:06:38.641 --> 01:06:40.641
system is totally fragmented.

01:06:41.222 --> 01:06:42.722
Identities are insane.

01:06:42.762 --> 01:06:44.242
Everybody's got to handle those of them.

01:06:44.364 --> 01:06:45.884
Security's a massive issue.

01:06:45.923 --> 01:06:47.204
There's all of these

01:06:47.344 --> 01:06:49.085
individual targeted threats

01:06:49.445 --> 01:06:51.467
and issues as well as

01:06:51.507 --> 01:06:53.268
systemic ones and blah, blah, blah.

01:06:53.568 --> 01:06:54.969
And their solution is, yeah,

01:06:55.009 --> 01:06:55.768
we'll just create one

01:06:55.809 --> 01:06:56.869
account to rule them all.

01:06:58.869 --> 01:06:59.771
And like my,

01:07:00.635 --> 01:07:01.755
way I'm coming at it I

01:07:01.815 --> 01:07:03.217
suppose and the research

01:07:03.257 --> 01:07:05.117
group I work in is that the

01:07:05.137 --> 01:07:06.077
problem is that you have a

01:07:06.117 --> 01:07:07.099
blockchain and you don't

01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:08.579
need a blockchain for any

01:07:08.599 --> 01:07:09.661
of the stuff ud gens are

01:07:09.721 --> 01:07:11.181
doing you just don't

01:07:11.442 --> 01:07:12.282
actually and your

01:07:12.302 --> 01:07:13.443
blockchains aren't actually

01:07:13.463 --> 01:07:14.744
that secure they're not

01:07:14.784 --> 01:07:16.505
that rewrite resistant and

01:07:16.525 --> 01:07:17.005
they're not that

01:07:17.105 --> 01:07:19.746
economically rigorous um so

01:07:19.806 --> 01:07:20.867
what you should instead do

01:07:20.967 --> 01:07:22.367
is build a better protocol

01:07:22.407 --> 01:07:23.648
to replace the one that you

01:07:23.728 --> 01:07:25.010
have talking between them

01:07:25.858 --> 01:07:27.260
and focus on that as your

01:07:27.300 --> 01:07:29.382
source of truth and think

01:07:29.442 --> 01:07:31.603
about ways in which the

01:07:31.643 --> 01:07:33.105
ephemerality or otherwise

01:07:33.144 --> 01:07:34.065
of the proofs that that

01:07:34.126 --> 01:07:36.246
provides could be provided

01:07:36.367 --> 01:07:37.708
in a way that is secure

01:07:37.768 --> 01:07:39.329
cryptographically robust

01:07:39.869 --> 01:07:41.271
and replicated within a

01:07:41.592 --> 01:07:42.952
reasonable amount of

01:07:43.132 --> 01:07:47.536
consensus some definition of consensus um

01:07:48.443 --> 01:07:50.065
And then just like, yeah, sure,

01:07:50.206 --> 01:07:51.106
have a blockchain somewhere,

01:07:51.146 --> 01:07:52.869
but it can just be whatever, man.

01:07:53.150 --> 01:07:54.130
It doesn't matter.

01:07:55.472 --> 01:07:56.954
You don't need a foundation

01:07:56.974 --> 01:07:58.096
and a team to run a blockchain.

01:07:58.597 --> 01:07:59.777
Some fucking DJ could be

01:07:59.818 --> 01:08:01.059
running a blockchain in the garage.

01:08:01.769 --> 01:08:03.110
and just write it to that.

01:08:03.170 --> 01:08:04.211
Who gives a shit?

01:08:05.152 --> 01:08:06.474
It's just a place at refs

01:08:06.574 --> 01:08:08.014
for some Merkle proofs.

01:08:09.036 --> 01:08:09.956
The important thing that's

01:08:10.016 --> 01:08:11.077
actually happening is when

01:08:12.498 --> 01:08:14.599
assets get transacted.

01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:20.204
To legal definitions of ownership,

01:08:20.305 --> 01:08:21.605
it's chosen action.

01:08:22.186 --> 01:08:25.288
Do you have the ability to take an action?

01:08:25.949 --> 01:08:28.631
The point of importance in

01:08:28.692 --> 01:08:29.853
the network diagram

01:08:30.956 --> 01:08:33.277
is the ability to take the

01:08:33.457 --> 01:08:34.497
action and you should be

01:08:34.516 --> 01:08:35.778
able to do that as a user

01:08:36.158 --> 01:08:37.439
simply that's the thing I

01:08:37.479 --> 01:08:39.559
agree on across multiple

01:08:39.779 --> 01:08:41.960
things also agree on it

01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:44.581
privately definitely that's

01:08:44.621 --> 01:08:47.243
where I i I sup not any

01:08:47.283 --> 01:08:48.222
longer from the public

01:08:48.243 --> 01:08:50.783
blockchain paradigm um

01:08:51.985 --> 01:08:53.025
And, you know, securely,

01:08:53.105 --> 01:08:54.226
which we also agree on, right.

01:08:54.247 --> 01:08:55.127
That's the whole basis of

01:08:55.146 --> 01:08:55.987
the cryptography and

01:08:56.027 --> 01:08:57.328
economics and incentive systems,

01:08:57.347 --> 01:08:58.167
securing these systems.

01:08:58.228 --> 01:08:58.408
Right.

01:08:59.728 --> 01:09:01.309
But I, I think,

01:09:01.448 --> 01:09:02.729
I think the point is that like the,

01:09:02.828 --> 01:09:05.149
the abstraction itself is

01:09:05.229 --> 01:09:06.850
the whole ball game for me,

01:09:06.890 --> 01:09:08.570
for the future of all these systems.

01:09:08.610 --> 01:09:09.572
Like I didn't give a shit

01:09:09.591 --> 01:09:10.891
about the blockchains and

01:09:10.912 --> 01:09:11.511
they don't even need to be

01:09:11.532 --> 01:09:12.311
blockchains really.

01:09:13.012 --> 01:09:13.412
But the,

01:09:13.493 --> 01:09:16.333
the idea that that account bit is

01:09:16.373 --> 01:09:18.014
an account or in

01:09:18.154 --> 01:09:19.074
meaningfully in the same

01:09:19.114 --> 01:09:20.255
way that we think about it right now.

01:09:22.064 --> 01:09:24.546
Yeah, I'm not buying it.

01:09:25.148 --> 01:09:25.948
There's a whole other bunch

01:09:25.969 --> 01:09:26.488
of stuff there.

01:09:26.509 --> 01:09:28.251
But hey, whatever.

01:09:29.011 --> 01:09:29.372
It's cool.

01:09:29.993 --> 01:09:32.135
I don't know if I understand what you said,

01:09:32.154 --> 01:09:32.274
though,

01:09:32.295 --> 01:09:35.918
because the validity of the

01:09:36.878 --> 01:09:37.800
account that exists on a

01:09:37.819 --> 01:09:39.221
specific shit chain that is,

01:09:39.242 --> 01:09:41.344
to your point, running within a

01:09:42.469 --> 01:09:43.609
within within a garage or

01:09:43.630 --> 01:09:44.850
something else is important

01:09:45.511 --> 01:09:47.171
right there's because it

01:09:47.533 --> 01:09:48.353
well only because only

01:09:48.372 --> 01:09:49.654
because it currently is my

01:09:49.873 --> 01:09:51.395
my my additional thesis is

01:09:51.435 --> 01:09:52.296
that all those are going to

01:09:52.336 --> 01:09:55.358
die anyway so except for

01:09:55.377 --> 01:09:56.639
ethereum a few other big

01:09:56.719 --> 01:10:01.143
ones so well then yes maybe

01:10:01.203 --> 01:10:02.342
because of the number of

01:10:02.382 --> 01:10:03.344
people who are involved in

01:10:03.384 --> 01:10:04.364
it or the amount that's

01:10:04.385 --> 01:10:05.546
staked or just being first

01:10:05.605 --> 01:10:07.167
in right yeah but

01:10:08.635 --> 01:10:10.117
So my theory of change is right.

01:10:10.136 --> 01:10:12.279
You build the thing for the idealized,

01:10:13.180 --> 01:10:14.842
any blockchain can run underneath it.

01:10:14.882 --> 01:10:15.844
It's just a store of state

01:10:15.904 --> 01:10:16.925
who cares about how its

01:10:16.944 --> 01:10:19.427
validator set operates, blah, blah, blah,

01:10:19.448 --> 01:10:19.809
blah, blah.

01:10:20.592 --> 01:10:21.833
But you know that you're

01:10:22.173 --> 01:10:22.935
never going to write

01:10:23.055 --> 01:10:24.315
anything insecure to it

01:10:24.676 --> 01:10:25.096
because all the

01:10:25.117 --> 01:10:26.497
cryptography is happening at the edge.

01:10:27.018 --> 01:10:28.179
So you're just persisting

01:10:28.219 --> 01:10:29.840
Merkle proofs of a thing

01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:30.680
happened in the past.

01:10:31.360 --> 01:10:34.162
And only the current owner

01:10:34.604 --> 01:10:35.805
of the transaction that

01:10:35.845 --> 01:10:38.846
occurred can ever even introspect that.

01:10:38.926 --> 01:10:39.567
And usually,

01:10:39.587 --> 01:10:41.668
depending on what kind of

01:10:41.689 --> 01:10:42.269
thing you're doing,

01:10:42.670 --> 01:10:43.529
there might not even be any

01:10:43.569 --> 01:10:45.271
metadata even to the owner

01:10:45.311 --> 01:10:46.212
of that transaction.

01:10:46.332 --> 01:10:47.974
And there's this common idea

01:10:48.054 --> 01:10:49.595
in digital currencies, which is that

01:10:51.163 --> 01:10:52.324
Everything has a half-life.

01:10:52.425 --> 01:10:53.805
Once you're done with an asset,

01:10:54.365 --> 01:10:55.506
once you're done with a thing,

01:10:55.606 --> 01:10:56.768
once you're done with an operation,

01:10:56.787 --> 01:10:57.509
you recycle it.

01:10:57.788 --> 01:11:00.291
You just poof it away and

01:11:00.310 --> 01:11:01.671
you regenerate something

01:11:02.733 --> 01:11:03.292
when you need it.

01:11:04.073 --> 01:11:05.875
This is the thing which I

01:11:05.914 --> 01:11:07.076
think has the most tension

01:11:07.836 --> 01:11:09.917
with permissionless systems, right?

01:11:10.557 --> 01:11:13.420
Is that there's a lot,

01:11:13.500 --> 01:11:14.360
any of these systems that

01:11:14.501 --> 01:11:16.563
rely on the idea of shorter-lived

01:11:17.873 --> 01:11:21.698
Um, permissioned, uh, and I mean,

01:11:21.738 --> 01:11:23.738
permissioned in the sense in like a, yeah,

01:11:23.798 --> 01:11:25.581
it can be, uh, you know, in a,

01:11:26.561 --> 01:11:27.643
like an identity system,

01:11:27.662 --> 01:11:28.524
which could be completely

01:11:28.543 --> 01:11:30.064
permissionless in its architecture.

01:11:30.085 --> 01:11:32.646
But I, I need to create a permission,

01:11:32.926 --> 01:11:34.309
like a read key, for example,

01:11:34.389 --> 01:11:35.369
for you to look at the

01:11:35.390 --> 01:11:36.890
thing that I'm sending you, you said,

01:11:36.911 --> 01:11:37.171
but like,

01:11:37.211 --> 01:11:39.113
like if we use GPG to send an email,

01:11:39.153 --> 01:11:39.353
right.

01:11:40.274 --> 01:11:42.615
Um, you know, but,

01:11:42.756 --> 01:11:43.936
but even in that situation,

01:11:43.957 --> 01:11:44.637
I suppose you.

01:11:46.905 --> 01:11:47.947
depending on how you

01:11:48.067 --> 01:11:49.047
architect these things,

01:11:49.087 --> 01:11:50.229
there's a lot of subtle

01:11:50.269 --> 01:11:54.011
complexity in how those

01:11:54.212 --> 01:11:58.015
proofs are issued and what actual,

01:12:00.076 --> 01:12:00.737
the proof can be

01:12:00.756 --> 01:12:02.137
cryptographically correct,

01:12:02.238 --> 01:12:03.179
but if the issuer

01:12:04.412 --> 01:12:06.472
doesn't have any cachet then

01:12:06.493 --> 01:12:08.594
it doesn't matter yeah

01:12:08.935 --> 01:12:11.895
right so nick nick um uh

01:12:13.176 --> 01:12:14.618
else how you know else how

01:12:14.658 --> 01:12:16.899
right old school dow dow so

01:12:16.979 --> 01:12:18.659
else how has is a cyber

01:12:18.699 --> 01:12:21.502
security researcher um and

01:12:21.542 --> 01:12:22.662
has written wrote about

01:12:22.681 --> 01:12:23.783
this a couple of years ago

01:12:23.802 --> 01:12:25.484
um in a blog post called I

01:12:25.524 --> 01:12:26.363
think it was the identity

01:12:26.404 --> 01:12:28.405
bureau and it was essentially about how

01:12:29.471 --> 01:12:30.653
um is one thing to be able

01:12:30.693 --> 01:12:32.675
to issue identities on a

01:12:32.734 --> 01:12:33.935
ledger or any kind of

01:12:34.076 --> 01:12:36.677
decentralized system but

01:12:36.757 --> 01:12:38.238
how you agree who has the

01:12:38.298 --> 01:12:40.841
authority to validate that

01:12:40.921 --> 01:12:41.981
identity is actually the

01:12:42.042 --> 01:12:42.921
harder problem like the

01:12:42.962 --> 01:12:45.024
social consensus problem um

01:12:45.764 --> 01:12:46.845
and to some extent that's

01:12:47.005 --> 01:12:48.105
also the problem with money

01:12:48.806 --> 01:12:49.747
and that's why you have

01:12:49.787 --> 01:12:51.328
these oblique complex

01:12:52.248 --> 01:12:54.270
economic incentives also at play

01:12:55.952 --> 01:12:56.932
In the blockchain world, right?

01:12:58.453 --> 01:12:59.213
So I don't know.

01:12:59.675 --> 01:13:00.555
It's all fascinating.

01:13:00.734 --> 01:13:01.555
I spent too long thinking

01:13:01.576 --> 01:13:02.076
about this stuff.

01:13:02.617 --> 01:13:05.137
The question is,

01:13:07.319 --> 01:13:09.902
has the PhD made you this

01:13:10.002 --> 01:13:11.221
cynical and fucking

01:13:11.282 --> 01:13:14.024
negative as a CBDC expert?

01:13:14.685 --> 01:13:19.047
Or are you bringing that

01:13:20.828 --> 01:13:23.591
from your history to these people?

01:13:23.650 --> 01:13:24.711
And they go, yeah, what the fuck?

01:13:24.730 --> 01:13:25.271
This guy's right.

01:13:26.020 --> 01:13:26.860
Which way is it going?

01:13:26.881 --> 01:13:32.363
I miserable.

01:13:32.743 --> 01:13:33.583
Do I listen to pop music?

01:13:34.725 --> 01:13:35.244
I can rephrase.

01:13:35.265 --> 01:13:38.686
Do I listen to pop music

01:13:38.707 --> 01:13:39.766
because I'm miserable?

01:13:40.106 --> 01:13:42.547
Are you miserable because of your history,

01:13:42.627 --> 01:13:44.009
bringing it to the PhD or.

01:13:46.207 --> 01:13:47.748
Are you just more miserable

01:13:47.929 --> 01:13:49.010
because everybody else in

01:13:49.069 --> 01:13:52.773
this CBDC discussion is as

01:13:52.872 --> 01:13:54.274
cynical and miserable as you are?

01:13:54.295 --> 01:13:55.135
And you're like, yeah, fuck,

01:13:55.175 --> 01:13:56.376
this is even worse than I thought.

01:13:56.856 --> 01:13:57.356
Which way is it?

01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:01.440
I would say that in general,

01:14:01.461 --> 01:14:06.064
a lot of people are old

01:14:06.144 --> 01:14:07.386
school cypherpunks,

01:14:07.786 --> 01:14:09.807
like proper old school cypherpunks.

01:14:10.587 --> 01:14:12.069
And it never happened.

01:14:12.149 --> 01:14:13.570
The cypherpunk revolution...

01:14:14.719 --> 01:14:15.560
everything's gonna be great

01:14:16.381 --> 01:14:17.180
it didn't really happen

01:14:17.201 --> 01:14:18.421
yeah and so there's a lot

01:14:18.442 --> 01:14:19.984
of jadedness there and I

01:14:20.083 --> 01:14:21.345
think they see

01:14:22.345 --> 01:14:23.886
understandably the crypto

01:14:23.926 --> 01:14:25.047
stuff is kind of like a

01:14:25.068 --> 01:14:26.850
very it's it's like the

01:14:27.090 --> 01:14:29.112
virtue signaling version of

01:14:29.231 --> 01:14:31.054
the cypherpunk future and a

01:14:31.113 --> 01:14:31.753
lot of it's actually

01:14:31.814 --> 01:14:32.795
potentially quite user

01:14:32.814 --> 01:14:35.818
harmful so there's a jadedness there um

01:14:39.431 --> 01:14:40.431
but yeah.

01:14:40.452 --> 01:14:41.172
So I think there's like,

01:14:41.332 --> 01:14:42.893
there's like a kind of hypothetical, Oh,

01:14:42.932 --> 01:14:43.974
these things are quite bad,

01:14:44.033 --> 01:14:44.953
but I don't really follow

01:14:45.033 --> 01:14:46.515
the details of why they're bad.

01:14:46.574 --> 01:14:48.295
I just academically know

01:14:48.314 --> 01:14:49.475
they probably are bad and

01:14:49.496 --> 01:14:50.676
I'm waiting to be proved correct.

01:14:50.756 --> 01:14:52.737
And then you come along and they go, Oh,

01:14:52.777 --> 01:14:53.176
well, you know,

01:14:53.197 --> 01:14:53.978
this thing is the thing you

01:14:53.997 --> 01:14:54.518
want to avoid.

01:14:54.537 --> 01:14:55.358
And you go, yeah, fuck.

01:14:55.377 --> 01:14:56.217
You really want to avoid

01:14:56.238 --> 01:14:57.279
that because it turns out

01:14:57.319 --> 01:14:58.458
loads of no double sign.

01:14:58.479 --> 01:14:59.099
Then people get on

01:14:59.139 --> 01:15:00.680
governance and then they on

01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:02.161
double sign themselves and blah, blah,

01:15:02.180 --> 01:15:02.341
blah.

01:15:02.360 --> 01:15:03.461
And they're like, huh,

01:15:03.820 --> 01:15:04.721
that's happening already.

01:15:04.742 --> 01:15:05.702
And you're like, yeah.

01:15:05.902 --> 01:15:06.881
And they're like, huh?

01:15:08.222 --> 01:15:08.603
Well, I mean,

01:15:09.960 --> 01:15:11.503
Yeah, I mean,

01:15:11.524 --> 01:15:12.827
obviously they wouldn't appreciate,

01:15:12.846 --> 01:15:13.729
they wouldn't probably get

01:15:13.769 --> 01:15:15.212
this cultural reference necessarily, but,

01:15:15.231 --> 01:15:16.253
you know,

01:15:16.274 --> 01:15:18.279
just a random interlocutor might not...

01:15:19.144 --> 01:15:21.805
be as online if you like, but you know,

01:15:21.845 --> 01:15:23.926
like the, these crypto as a speed running,

01:15:23.987 --> 01:15:25.568
like European intellectual history,

01:15:25.648 --> 01:15:26.608
as somebody put it on that

01:15:27.029 --> 01:15:28.029
blog post that we were

01:15:28.048 --> 01:15:29.750
talking about the other day, you know, uh,

01:15:30.530 --> 01:15:31.511
it's a little bit like that,

01:15:32.072 --> 01:15:32.971
but I think the,

01:15:33.192 --> 01:15:34.012
the thing that has made me

01:15:34.033 --> 01:15:35.413
more cynical is actually

01:15:35.474 --> 01:15:37.335
just really beginning to

01:15:37.414 --> 01:15:38.375
understand how these

01:15:38.414 --> 01:15:39.775
systems work under the hood

01:15:39.836 --> 01:15:40.997
at like a better level.

01:15:42.599 --> 01:15:43.618
Because it's one thing,

01:15:43.719 --> 01:15:45.881
if you're maintaining a chain in Cosmos,

01:15:46.180 --> 01:15:47.061
you get a reasonable

01:15:47.101 --> 01:15:48.222
practical understanding for

01:15:48.243 --> 01:15:49.243
how to nibble away under

01:15:49.262 --> 01:15:51.244
the hood at the SDK and the

01:15:51.284 --> 01:15:52.746
application level and blah, blah, blah.

01:15:53.926 --> 01:15:55.707
But when you start to get a

01:15:55.728 --> 01:15:56.627
better understanding of

01:15:57.149 --> 01:15:58.430
what else is out there and

01:15:58.510 --> 01:15:59.831
how it works under the hood

01:16:00.530 --> 01:16:01.952
and the limitations of it,

01:16:03.292 --> 01:16:05.454
you start to see very, very clearly

01:16:06.842 --> 01:16:07.203
Like, I mean,

01:16:07.222 --> 01:16:08.762
we joke about like the lies

01:16:08.802 --> 01:16:10.064
that are sold to venture

01:16:10.083 --> 01:16:11.764
capitalists and all of that stuff,

01:16:11.863 --> 01:16:14.164
but you also just go like the things,

01:16:14.364 --> 01:16:15.145
the things that you're

01:16:15.805 --> 01:16:16.585
saying you're going to do

01:16:16.645 --> 01:16:18.746
are not possible with your

01:16:18.786 --> 01:16:19.485
level of technical

01:16:19.805 --> 01:16:22.386
expertise on your team and

01:16:22.407 --> 01:16:23.487
where the technology is now.

01:16:23.726 --> 01:16:25.186
Like they're just, they're just a lie.

01:16:25.207 --> 01:16:27.188
And I think that's the thing

01:16:27.228 --> 01:16:28.467
that's made me quite the

01:16:28.488 --> 01:16:29.547
most jaded really.

01:16:32.408 --> 01:16:36.350
So the answer is a little bit.

01:16:39.719 --> 01:16:41.681
The answer is that you're

01:16:41.801 --> 01:16:44.206
changing the opinion of

01:16:44.225 --> 01:16:45.809
your classmates based on your history.

01:16:47.712 --> 01:16:49.255
No, I don't really talk to anybody else,

01:16:49.274 --> 01:16:49.375
man.

01:16:49.435 --> 01:16:49.494
No?

01:16:49.515 --> 01:16:50.095
No, okay.

01:16:52.378 --> 01:16:54.920
When I go in, literally,

01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:56.681
there's one postdoc who

01:16:56.962 --> 01:16:58.143
works on robotics and

01:16:58.162 --> 01:16:59.543
computer vision in the

01:16:59.564 --> 01:17:00.583
office that I go into.

01:17:01.005 --> 01:17:03.185
We cross over, not at all.

01:17:03.206 --> 01:17:04.587
He's a heavy maths guy.

01:17:04.606 --> 01:17:08.689
Literally, because I go down every week,

01:17:09.730 --> 01:17:11.891
sit in that office, we chat a little bit,

01:17:12.233 --> 01:17:13.432
say how's it going, whatever.

01:17:13.453 --> 01:17:16.796
I think he's a bit younger than me.

01:17:17.735 --> 01:17:20.358
And then he's only a one-year postdoc,

01:17:20.738 --> 01:17:21.399
so he's already gone.

01:17:21.701 --> 01:17:22.041
That's it.

01:17:22.502 --> 01:17:22.902
That's my,

01:17:23.042 --> 01:17:24.302
my one colleague like is

01:17:24.382 --> 01:17:25.403
basically other than my

01:17:25.422 --> 01:17:27.324
supervisor and people in my research, um,

01:17:28.505 --> 01:17:29.826
group, but you don't like,

01:17:29.865 --> 01:17:30.606
you don't see people in

01:17:30.646 --> 01:17:32.067
your research group very often,

01:17:32.328 --> 01:17:32.948
unless there's like an

01:17:32.988 --> 01:17:34.668
event or you run into each

01:17:34.708 --> 01:17:35.590
other in the corridor and you're like,

01:17:35.609 --> 01:17:37.131
Hey, what's up?

01:17:38.451 --> 01:17:40.353
So like basically, so.

01:17:42.688 --> 01:17:43.528
I had this vision of like

01:17:43.547 --> 01:17:44.389
you walking in and talking

01:17:44.408 --> 01:17:44.809
about this stuff.

01:17:44.849 --> 01:17:46.548
And then like your, your professors,

01:17:46.588 --> 01:17:48.310
like Donald, Donald Sutherland and,

01:17:48.930 --> 01:17:49.511
and Adam Hoss,

01:17:49.530 --> 01:17:50.331
where he just goes home and

01:17:50.350 --> 01:17:51.390
just lights up a huge joint

01:17:51.551 --> 01:17:54.712
and just be like, that dude's got issues.

01:17:57.953 --> 01:17:59.694
Yeah.

01:18:00.895 --> 01:18:01.154
Yeah.

01:18:01.194 --> 01:18:01.994
The, the, the,

01:18:03.076 --> 01:18:04.855
by my experience of the

01:18:04.895 --> 01:18:07.256
academics that I am

01:18:07.296 --> 01:18:08.837
beholden to is that they

01:18:08.858 --> 01:18:09.978
are all basically what I

01:18:10.037 --> 01:18:11.798
pictured they would be like.

01:18:14.036 --> 01:18:15.537
But a lot of people do

01:18:15.738 --> 01:18:16.939
computer science PhDs

01:18:17.019 --> 01:18:18.961
because a lot of fintech

01:18:19.122 --> 01:18:21.423
companies expect their

01:18:21.503 --> 01:18:25.429
technical liaison staff and their like

01:18:27.980 --> 01:18:29.403
I don't know quite what the word is.

01:18:30.063 --> 01:18:31.925
Like there's like an office

01:18:31.965 --> 01:18:34.387
of the CTO in a lot of big organizations,

01:18:34.448 --> 01:18:35.989
especially banks and stuff

01:18:36.430 --> 01:18:37.652
where they basically have young,

01:18:37.731 --> 01:18:39.353
smart people who they'll go

01:18:39.372 --> 01:18:40.895
and attach to a project.

01:18:41.175 --> 01:18:42.256
And they're not programmers.

01:18:42.777 --> 01:18:44.599
They're not exactly computer scientists.

01:18:44.618 --> 01:18:46.320
They're like kind of due diligence people.

01:18:46.341 --> 01:18:48.963
And if you want to do that job.

01:18:49.886 --> 01:18:51.368
It seems like the deal is

01:18:51.408 --> 01:18:52.768
you get a PhD and you do that.

01:18:53.188 --> 01:18:53.969
So there's a lot of people

01:18:54.029 --> 01:18:55.609
who are fully over 10 years

01:18:55.668 --> 01:18:56.630
younger than me who are

01:18:56.649 --> 01:19:00.551
doing PhDs on like your risk management.

01:19:00.570 --> 01:19:01.931
It's very maths actually,

01:19:01.952 --> 01:19:03.752
from my perspective as

01:19:03.773 --> 01:19:05.453
somebody who's come in as a programmer,

01:19:06.132 --> 01:19:06.493
it's very,

01:19:06.514 --> 01:19:08.634
it feels very maths rather than

01:19:08.654 --> 01:19:09.255
computer science,

01:19:09.274 --> 01:19:10.515
but it is computer science.

01:19:10.635 --> 01:19:12.115
It's just that what I'm

01:19:12.315 --> 01:19:13.716
doing is relatively applied.

01:19:13.737 --> 01:19:13.777
Um,

01:19:16.590 --> 01:19:17.350
So that's the other thing

01:19:17.371 --> 01:19:17.871
that's a bit weird.

01:19:17.890 --> 01:19:19.292
Whenever you do encounter somebody,

01:19:19.832 --> 01:19:21.233
you're like, ah,

01:19:21.273 --> 01:19:22.474
we run servers and whatever.

01:19:22.493 --> 01:19:23.293
Or somebody will be like,

01:19:23.314 --> 01:19:24.034
I need to run this thing

01:19:24.074 --> 01:19:24.854
and I don't have a box.

01:19:24.875 --> 01:19:26.596
And I'll literally be like, oh,

01:19:26.617 --> 01:19:27.436
I think we've got a spare

01:19:27.476 --> 01:19:28.658
Epic box that's still being

01:19:28.698 --> 01:19:29.658
paid for for another month

01:19:29.698 --> 01:19:30.198
if you want it.

01:19:30.219 --> 01:19:31.619
And they'll be like, what?

01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:32.619
You'll be like, yeah,

01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:34.041
I think it's got like 512

01:19:34.041 --> 01:19:35.381
gig of RAM if you need some extra RAM.

01:19:35.402 --> 01:19:36.823
And they're just like, what?

01:19:38.384 --> 01:19:39.244
Genuinely use it,

01:19:39.305 --> 01:19:40.826
but it will die in three weeks.

01:19:40.865 --> 01:19:43.367
So give me an answer on email, yeah?

01:19:43.386 --> 01:19:43.887
Yeah.

01:19:47.068 --> 01:19:48.389
Like people don't think you're serious.

01:19:48.408 --> 01:19:49.069
The thing is though,

01:19:49.109 --> 01:19:50.090
you just don't sound like

01:19:50.189 --> 01:19:51.310
you're making a serious

01:19:51.689 --> 01:19:52.890
offer when you say something like that.

01:19:53.190 --> 01:19:53.551
You are.

01:19:53.911 --> 01:19:54.771
I genuinely are.

01:19:54.792 --> 01:19:55.492
That's happened a couple of

01:19:55.511 --> 01:19:56.472
times where I've just been like, Hey,

01:19:56.493 --> 01:19:57.792
if you need a box, like we've got them,

01:19:57.853 --> 01:19:58.293
but you know,

01:19:58.314 --> 01:19:59.514
they will expire at the end of the month.

01:19:59.634 --> 01:20:00.014
Like you can,

01:20:00.375 --> 01:20:01.034
if you just need to run

01:20:01.055 --> 01:20:01.835
something for a couple of days,

01:20:01.854 --> 01:20:03.115
you can thrash that motherfucker.

01:20:03.136 --> 01:20:03.676
We don't pay.

01:20:03.716 --> 01:20:05.016
It doesn't matter.

01:20:05.056 --> 01:20:05.917
Hard drives, baby.

01:20:06.757 --> 01:20:07.177
That's funny.

01:20:08.774 --> 01:20:09.895
If you're like, oh, sure,

01:20:11.096 --> 01:20:11.896
I'll let you know.

01:20:11.957 --> 01:20:12.757
Cool, never mind.

01:20:12.898 --> 01:20:13.979
Never mind.

01:20:14.338 --> 01:20:14.680
It's fine.

01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:15.859
We can burn it all.

01:20:16.501 --> 01:20:18.523
We can burn all the shit in the ground.

01:20:18.643 --> 01:20:19.002
It's fine.

01:20:20.764 --> 01:20:21.545
Everything's disposable.

01:20:22.826 --> 01:20:23.086
Yeah.

01:20:23.365 --> 01:20:24.867
I mean, nothing's forever, dude.

01:20:24.907 --> 01:20:25.988
Not even on the blockchain.

01:20:26.007 --> 01:20:28.949
Especially these shitchains.

01:20:28.989 --> 01:20:29.591
Yeah, exactly.

01:20:29.890 --> 01:20:30.851
Especially these shitchains.

01:20:31.532 --> 01:20:32.733
They're all going to zero, baby.

01:20:32.752 --> 01:20:35.015
So speaking of going to zero,

01:20:35.215 --> 01:20:36.976
do we get to cover...

01:20:38.024 --> 01:20:41.064
most recent drama in the, what do we got?

01:20:41.984 --> 01:20:46.447
Well, I mean the, the, the Juno depose,

01:20:46.506 --> 01:20:48.148
the depose, the council thing,

01:20:48.188 --> 01:20:49.488
quite funny tank.

01:20:50.328 --> 01:20:50.548
Yeah.

01:20:51.189 --> 01:20:51.429
Yeah.

01:20:51.469 --> 01:20:52.189
Yeah.

01:20:52.309 --> 01:20:58.711
There is a, uh, there is a proposal,

01:20:58.730 --> 01:21:01.612
a current proposal that is, um,

01:21:04.393 --> 01:21:05.533
related to that, I guess.

01:21:07.801 --> 01:21:10.962
to uh drop the um to drop

01:21:10.983 --> 01:21:13.523
the council yeah I don't

01:21:13.542 --> 01:21:14.722
think crypto tanks put up

01:21:14.762 --> 01:21:15.804
the make me dictator

01:21:15.844 --> 01:21:18.503
proposal yet right no just

01:21:18.724 --> 01:21:19.484
there's a there's a

01:21:19.543 --> 01:21:21.885
proposal to drop the like

01:21:21.944 --> 01:21:23.704
reading the comments from

01:21:25.265 --> 01:21:28.185
the um that commonwealth uh

01:21:28.246 --> 01:21:29.806
well you know the discourse

01:21:29.966 --> 01:21:31.226
on that commonwealth about

01:21:31.707 --> 01:21:32.726
you know crypto tanks

01:21:32.766 --> 01:21:36.488
proposal on commonwealth like it looks

01:21:37.829 --> 01:21:38.109
to me,

01:21:38.170 --> 01:21:40.230
it looks like the charter wants to

01:21:40.270 --> 01:21:41.072
be dropped anyway.

01:21:42.152 --> 01:21:46.234
Like I, I voted yes on, on the, you know,

01:21:46.274 --> 01:21:47.654
dissolve the, the charter.

01:21:47.675 --> 01:21:49.235
And then like some people said,

01:21:49.275 --> 01:21:49.975
why are you doing that?

01:21:50.036 --> 01:21:51.216
So I have to have another look at it,

01:21:51.296 --> 01:21:52.938
but we're in abstain for

01:21:52.957 --> 01:21:57.819
the moment on that proposal, but you know,

01:22:01.282 --> 01:22:01.521
I dunno,

01:22:01.702 --> 01:22:02.863
the charter only had to work on

01:22:02.922 --> 01:22:03.922
it for six months.

01:22:04.724 --> 01:22:06.685
Like some of us achieved anything.

01:22:06.765 --> 01:22:06.944
Right.

01:22:08.371 --> 01:22:08.810
Yeah, well,

01:22:08.871 --> 01:22:09.912
but six months is a pretty

01:22:09.971 --> 01:22:12.113
short time to be working on something.

01:22:13.234 --> 01:22:15.454
I think if you're going to

01:22:15.494 --> 01:22:16.756
have the full experience of

01:22:16.836 --> 01:22:17.815
suffering for Juno,

01:22:17.855 --> 01:22:19.917
I think you should do it

01:22:19.976 --> 01:22:21.158
for a longer period of time

01:22:21.198 --> 01:22:24.539
before you... Kids these days.

01:22:25.520 --> 01:22:26.121
Kids these days,

01:22:26.140 --> 01:22:27.462
they suffer for six months.

01:22:27.622 --> 01:22:28.641
They're like, I want out.

01:22:29.582 --> 01:22:31.043
Yeah.

01:22:33.944 --> 01:22:35.206
That thread is fucking awesome, though.

01:22:36.493 --> 01:22:37.234
Chaos isn't it?

01:22:37.474 --> 01:22:38.335
It's great.

01:22:38.914 --> 01:22:40.234
It's like it's a good read.

01:22:40.255 --> 01:22:42.855
I'll put you to speak Yeah,

01:22:42.916 --> 01:22:46.796
if you Demi and tank and

01:22:47.037 --> 01:22:48.578
who else who's else is in there?

01:22:49.818 --> 01:22:50.677
Gains, right?

01:22:50.858 --> 01:22:51.918
I think I think Neal's

01:22:52.238 --> 01:22:55.500
Neal's They might also be

01:22:55.520 --> 01:22:56.460
an occasional listener of

01:22:56.840 --> 01:23:00.541
the potter Has absolutely spellbinding

01:23:03.913 --> 01:23:05.173
edition where they just sort

01:23:05.213 --> 01:23:07.154
of say oh it's you know

01:23:07.175 --> 01:23:08.295
it's kind of funny how this

01:23:08.375 --> 01:23:09.734
all has like an analog in

01:23:09.814 --> 01:23:11.155
european history but you

01:23:11.195 --> 01:23:12.416
know you'll keep doing your

01:23:12.475 --> 01:23:14.997
thing it's cool I like your

01:23:15.037 --> 01:23:17.037
napoleon what I i think I

01:23:17.056 --> 01:23:18.237
think he makes pre this the

01:23:18.256 --> 01:23:19.438
prince matanek isn't it but

01:23:19.818 --> 01:23:21.537
yeah it likes your napoleon

01:23:21.557 --> 01:23:22.639
and we'll see how that pans

01:23:22.698 --> 01:23:26.319
out for you it's like it's

01:23:26.699 --> 01:23:27.760
it's like old school it's

01:23:27.779 --> 01:23:32.701
like good stuff yeah

01:23:33.837 --> 01:23:34.037
Yeah.

01:23:34.398 --> 01:23:35.739
Anyway, I'll put... So,

01:23:36.480 --> 01:23:40.207
I mean... I don't know if I

01:23:40.226 --> 01:23:41.328
have an opinion on it, to be honest,

01:23:41.368 --> 01:23:41.909
but the...

01:23:45.025 --> 01:23:46.065
i mean we've supported tank

01:23:46.086 --> 01:23:46.865
in the past right because

01:23:46.905 --> 01:23:48.186
we we actually sponsored

01:23:48.707 --> 01:23:51.747
the uh nft natural nft

01:23:51.766 --> 01:23:52.807
national that's right yeah

01:23:52.828 --> 01:23:53.728
we we sponsored that

01:23:53.747 --> 01:23:56.667
structure right um so but

01:23:56.707 --> 01:23:58.609
the idea that hey give up

01:23:58.668 --> 01:23:59.469
on all the shit and like

01:23:59.509 --> 01:24:00.448
let's get some movement

01:24:00.488 --> 01:24:01.529
going and like let's get

01:24:01.588 --> 01:24:02.309
going and all this kind of

01:24:02.328 --> 01:24:04.310
stuff I thought was was was

01:24:04.350 --> 01:24:10.070
fun um anyway the I don't know man like

01:24:12.007 --> 01:24:13.548
The network can't pay for it.

01:24:13.609 --> 01:24:14.689
Like all this stuff that

01:24:14.710 --> 01:24:17.032
people want to get paid for.

01:24:17.091 --> 01:24:18.453
It's like, there's no fucking money, man.

01:24:18.753 --> 01:24:20.255
Stop, stop thinking there's money.

01:24:20.534 --> 01:24:22.216
Like the only way Juno is

01:24:22.277 --> 01:24:24.599
ever going to do anything and survive.

01:24:24.639 --> 01:24:26.739
If a group of people become

01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:27.881
really passionate about it

01:24:28.020 --> 01:24:29.422
and work their asses off for free,

01:24:30.523 --> 01:24:31.404
that is the only way it

01:24:31.444 --> 01:24:32.484
will ever fucking get out

01:24:32.505 --> 01:24:33.126
of the doldrums.

01:24:33.905 --> 01:24:39.350
Which to be fair was kind of like,

01:24:42.037 --> 01:24:44.057
Everybody worked for free on

01:24:44.078 --> 01:24:45.538
Juno in the early days

01:24:45.779 --> 01:24:46.738
before it launched anyway.

01:24:47.059 --> 01:24:48.899
That was what happened.

01:24:49.720 --> 01:24:52.119
Yeah, but then it had prospects.

01:24:53.039 --> 01:24:54.201
Now there are no prospects.

01:24:54.440 --> 01:24:57.121
There's no teams building on there.

01:24:57.501 --> 01:24:58.701
That was exactly it.

01:24:58.902 --> 01:25:00.242
Broken dreams.

01:25:04.023 --> 01:25:06.643
The problem was it got too

01:25:06.722 --> 01:25:10.224
successful for too little too quickly.

01:25:10.404 --> 01:25:10.703
That's right.

01:25:11.770 --> 01:25:13.610
And it had the wrong core

01:25:13.631 --> 01:25:15.693
team to manage that transition.

01:25:16.514 --> 01:25:20.837
And it had the wrong or not

01:25:20.917 --> 01:25:22.118
enough developers to

01:25:22.177 --> 01:25:23.899
actually maintain any real momentum.

01:25:24.259 --> 01:25:26.921
And then Luna blew up.

01:25:26.980 --> 01:25:27.622
And then that was that.

01:25:28.141 --> 01:25:28.381
Really?

01:25:30.264 --> 01:25:30.503
Yeah.

01:25:31.423 --> 01:25:34.006
Combination of Prop 16 and Terror.

01:25:34.086 --> 01:25:35.807
And that was enough to kill it, basically.

01:25:36.247 --> 01:25:36.368
Yeah.

01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:37.439
And again,

01:25:37.479 --> 01:25:38.400
you're building a platform and

01:25:38.440 --> 01:25:38.881
you're trying to,

01:25:39.061 --> 01:25:40.023
you're trying to invite

01:25:40.082 --> 01:25:41.884
teams and teams have lots

01:25:41.923 --> 01:25:43.425
of options of where to be able to build.

01:25:43.505 --> 01:25:45.167
And so when those types of drugs,

01:25:45.186 --> 01:25:46.307
when that drug comes in, why would you,

01:25:46.467 --> 01:25:47.548
why would we get involved in that shit?

01:25:47.929 --> 01:25:48.109
Right.

01:25:48.149 --> 01:25:48.668
Like why would we,

01:25:49.449 --> 01:25:50.951
why would we tie our horse

01:25:50.970 --> 01:25:53.332
to this fucking wagon type of thing?

01:25:53.833 --> 01:25:54.014
Right.

01:25:55.135 --> 01:25:55.234
Yeah.

01:25:55.255 --> 01:25:56.796
It was just like, I mean, it's,

01:25:56.996 --> 01:25:58.037
it's just like that classic thing.

01:25:58.056 --> 01:26:00.418
If you wake up one morning, you know,

01:26:00.458 --> 01:26:01.260
you need to quit your job

01:26:01.279 --> 01:26:01.899
when you wake up one

01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:02.740
morning and you're like,

01:26:04.345 --> 01:26:04.466
Uh,

01:26:04.565 --> 01:26:06.087
this is just an abusive relationship

01:26:06.287 --> 01:26:06.627
actually.

01:26:06.707 --> 01:26:07.207
What the fuck?

01:26:07.806 --> 01:26:09.306
And I think, yeah, well,

01:26:09.368 --> 01:26:10.387
and I think a lot of teams

01:26:10.408 --> 01:26:11.667
building on Juno ultimately

01:26:11.707 --> 01:26:13.849
had that realization, right.

01:26:13.889 --> 01:26:15.689
Which was that whether it was the,

01:26:16.009 --> 01:26:17.390
whether or not, whether or not,

01:26:17.550 --> 01:26:18.529
and this is the bit that

01:26:18.590 --> 01:26:20.970
people didn't talk about so much,

01:26:21.030 --> 01:26:21.711
but whether or not it was

01:26:21.751 --> 01:26:26.292
the actual community or it

01:26:26.351 --> 01:26:27.851
was core one or any number

01:26:27.891 --> 01:26:29.573
of other stakeholders or whatever.

01:26:30.926 --> 01:26:31.105
Um,

01:26:31.567 --> 01:26:32.728
there were just a lot of people who

01:26:32.747 --> 01:26:33.648
were kicking your head in

01:26:33.828 --> 01:26:34.809
if you were working on June.

01:26:34.828 --> 01:26:34.929
Yeah.

01:26:35.550 --> 01:26:35.710
Yeah.

01:26:36.911 --> 01:26:38.311
And you just like, you just like,

01:26:38.731 --> 01:26:39.672
there comes a point where you're just,

01:26:39.693 --> 01:26:40.894
I'm fucking too old for this shit, man.

01:26:40.953 --> 01:26:44.117
Like I'm, I could just pack this shit in,

01:26:44.617 --> 01:26:46.217
get a well-paid job and

01:26:46.557 --> 01:26:48.359
just fucking be anonymous

01:26:48.439 --> 01:26:49.180
at a big company.

01:26:49.220 --> 01:26:49.400
Right.

01:26:49.881 --> 01:26:52.103
Just clock in work remotely.

01:26:52.122 --> 01:26:53.984
It's fucking clock in from

01:26:54.024 --> 01:26:55.546
this damn chair right here.

01:26:55.706 --> 01:26:56.126
Just like,

01:26:56.166 --> 01:26:57.947
I'll fucking worry about it anymore.

01:26:58.408 --> 01:26:59.408
And let's, let's be honest.

01:26:59.668 --> 01:26:59.729
Uh,

01:27:01.221 --> 01:27:03.222
A proper dictator is far

01:27:03.262 --> 01:27:04.222
better than the community.

01:27:05.663 --> 01:27:06.984
And the community can be far

01:27:07.024 --> 01:27:08.265
better than a shit dictator.

01:27:09.305 --> 01:27:12.826
So I think having that,

01:27:13.065 --> 01:27:14.346
everything being voted by committee,

01:27:14.886 --> 01:27:15.726
by far,

01:27:15.867 --> 01:27:16.648
if you have somebody who has a

01:27:16.688 --> 01:27:17.847
vision who wants to be able

01:27:17.887 --> 01:27:19.649
to push things forward and

01:27:20.408 --> 01:27:23.770
will power through that stuff, in the end,

01:27:24.890 --> 01:27:26.490
a strong dictator in those

01:27:26.511 --> 01:27:28.492
types of situations will overcome that.

01:27:29.471 --> 01:27:31.353
I just don't, in this situation,

01:27:31.372 --> 01:27:32.573
I think it's too little too late.

01:27:32.654 --> 01:27:33.394
And I don't know if that's

01:27:33.413 --> 01:27:34.255
the right dictator, but.

01:27:35.256 --> 01:27:35.395
Well,

01:27:35.416 --> 01:27:37.896
it's also like there's a kind of conflict,

01:27:37.957 --> 01:27:38.256
isn't there,

01:27:38.277 --> 01:27:41.639
between Juno as a political

01:27:42.340 --> 01:27:44.720
entity versus Juno as a business entity.

01:27:44.780 --> 01:27:45.702
And I think if you look at,

01:27:46.221 --> 01:27:47.122
if you look for the lessons

01:27:47.162 --> 01:27:49.144
of history for how it

01:27:49.163 --> 01:27:50.164
should govern itself,

01:27:50.685 --> 01:27:51.564
you'll come up with a

01:27:51.605 --> 01:27:52.466
potentially different

01:27:52.605 --> 01:27:55.427
answer from how it should approach the

01:27:56.186 --> 01:27:57.347
itself as a business and

01:27:57.387 --> 01:27:58.448
that has always been a

01:27:58.509 --> 01:27:59.930
tension with judo and I

01:27:59.949 --> 01:28:01.090
think to be fair the juno

01:28:01.130 --> 01:28:02.771
charter lot have done a

01:28:04.113 --> 01:28:05.472
pretty good job as far as I

01:28:05.493 --> 01:28:06.634
can tell of just like

01:28:07.454 --> 01:28:08.676
looking under the rug and

01:28:08.716 --> 01:28:10.377
working out what the was

01:28:10.417 --> 01:28:12.717
going on you know yeah um

01:28:13.939 --> 01:28:17.841
but you know that's that's

01:28:17.902 --> 01:28:20.063
about business governance

01:28:20.904 --> 01:28:21.904
in a lot of ways more than

01:28:22.085 --> 01:28:23.305
business operations

01:28:24.890 --> 01:28:27.653
And this is complicated.

01:28:27.693 --> 01:28:29.274
This is complicated organizational stuff.

01:28:29.413 --> 01:28:31.456
I feel like I'm out of my lane.

01:28:31.817 --> 01:28:34.439
Are there any teams that

01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:35.279
actually have that

01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:36.140
situation where you have a

01:28:36.421 --> 01:28:38.302
CEO that is governed by a board?

01:28:39.323 --> 01:28:40.484
Like you would in the enterprise space?

01:28:40.524 --> 01:28:41.305
Like the board...

01:28:43.519 --> 01:28:44.680
like a board of directors is

01:28:44.800 --> 01:28:45.961
usually pretty typically

01:28:46.060 --> 01:28:47.943
useless meaning like yeah

01:28:48.042 --> 01:28:49.043
they're very poor at making

01:28:49.083 --> 01:28:50.685
decisions but they are good

01:28:51.204 --> 01:28:52.485
in terms of ensuring that

01:28:52.506 --> 01:28:53.567
the people who are making

01:28:53.606 --> 01:28:54.648
decisions are going in the

01:28:54.667 --> 01:28:55.849
right direction and or

01:28:55.929 --> 01:28:57.149
being measured and

01:28:57.210 --> 01:28:58.992
monitored to say outside of

01:28:59.032 --> 01:29:01.873
cosmos I think so okay in

01:29:01.913 --> 01:29:03.414
cosmos does that exist like

01:29:03.435 --> 01:29:04.676
I mean maybe I'm not aware

01:29:04.695 --> 01:29:08.078
of it I don't know maybe greg could

01:29:08.729 --> 01:29:10.350
at a cost or something similar to that.

01:29:10.489 --> 01:29:10.791
Cause I mean,

01:29:10.831 --> 01:29:11.490
you have a lot of project

01:29:11.511 --> 01:29:12.471
team owners that are like

01:29:12.952 --> 01:29:15.274
individuals that are figureheads,

01:29:15.354 --> 01:29:16.154
but they might still have a

01:29:16.175 --> 01:29:17.136
board that sits on top of that.

01:29:17.695 --> 01:29:18.877
But purely having a

01:29:18.976 --> 01:29:20.238
community type structure like this,

01:29:20.278 --> 01:29:21.599
I think is you just,

01:29:22.038 --> 01:29:23.159
it's constantly bickering

01:29:23.220 --> 01:29:24.060
and I don't know.