WEBVTT

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Anything from last week we want to get on?

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Hmm.

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It's going to be tough to

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drag this out for 90 minutes,

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don't you think?

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Hello and welcome to Game of Nodes,

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a weekly podcast from

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independent validator teams.

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Still, still defiantly...

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is an independent podcast.

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I mean, well,

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that part is always going to happen,

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I suppose.

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Who's going to buy this?

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Hey, we can but hope.

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We can but hope.

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Is that one of those things

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where we could claim that

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we're violently independent

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because you don't say the other part?

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I was going to say,

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which parts are going to disappear first?

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I reckon the independent

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part is the bit that

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survives the longest.

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I think so.

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Because how can you sell out

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when you have nothing to sell?

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What the hell?

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The validator part, perhaps less so.

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So I've got a point.

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So we've obviously got usual

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stacked features, news, whatnot,

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unstacked in terms of panel.

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on account of some real, some,

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some kind of real life admin.

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Well, one part, well, Nolo's on holiday,

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just cruising around the South Pacific.

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Um, and, uh,

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and Schultz is doing life admin.

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So, um, I keep forgetting.

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It's just the diehards.

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Well, but also like, you know,

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cause it's cause it's like

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late in the evening here.

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You just like,

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there's only one other thing

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you'd be doing if you have

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a small child at this time of day.

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drinking maybe drinking or

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playing playstation but but

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probably sleeping right so

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you're just like what if

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you just do the life admin

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at like 10 o'clock at night

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and you're like oh yeah

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okay it's like

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mid-afternoon right so um

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but so we were talking the

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other day uh so here's

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something I think you know

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the news items whatever um

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we were talking the other

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day um about uh which which

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chain was it that was

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beefing uh with somebody

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about thudding do you remember that

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Uh, yes, that was a,

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you mean the one that came

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up in a private discord

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channel about flooding?

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Yeah.

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So I don't,

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we didn't have to name the

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specifics of it, but then what,

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what happened?

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So there was, there was,

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there was somebody called

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up by a foundation for, for flooding,

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which whatever the fuck, like, uh,

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uh yeah back to back to the

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like why are we here like

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isn't the whole purpose of

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this you know censorship

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resistance and blah blah

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and you know somebody in

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your validator set says

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some actually in that case

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ironically the validation

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question wasn't even the

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correct validator but

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anyway um and it wasn't

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even that funny right it

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was just it was just

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criticism it would just say

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an added piece of technical

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criticism that would lead

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to a better outcome for

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everybody involved

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But funding, whatever, you know, so, um,

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so apparently what we're doing here is,

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um, you know, uh, yeah,

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foundations or whatever in

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this case are going, yeah,

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it's invalid technical criticism instead.

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We can call it funding, um,

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which by the way,

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funding is completely legit anyway.

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Um, uh, but we're,

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we're not going to do that.

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Fuck freedom of speech, uh,

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fuck professional integrity, whatever.

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Anyway, that's not the point.

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The point was there was an

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interesting discussion

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after that about what

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exactly is the kind of

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discussion we've been

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having on this podcast for a while.

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Um, which is like what, you know,

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it's kind of always back to like the,

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what are the validators, um,

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bringing to the table discussion, right?

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Because there was a question

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essentially like, um,

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Okay,

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so if you're a validator and you're

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doing these different things for a chain,

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right?

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And in this particular case,

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there was obviously,

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you've been FUDing and

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there was a threat implicit in that.

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And if there's one area in

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which this space still is

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zero trust or low trust,

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it is any idea that any

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counterparty of yours that

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would in other circles be a

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business contract

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has any kind of loyalty to

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you as an operator and your

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business as a node operator.

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That's the one thing that is

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definitely not the case,

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even if all the other

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social contracts and

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assumptions and whatever

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are still in place.

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But we had this long discussion about,

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well, maybe not that long,

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but a discussion about what exactly it is

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that differentiates validators.

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And I think it was Polkachu

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was sort of saying, well, we've,

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there was a point in the

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past where the volume of

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validator was so high and

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the quality was so low that

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technical competence was the line, right?

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That was what you were

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bringing to the table.

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That was a, that was a,

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it was a barrier to entry

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that did separate.

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solid validator well solid

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node operators from from

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ones who were and that was

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the case even in cosmos

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which is actually in terms

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of validators relatively

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simple to run um except for

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that whole double sign

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thing which is a good

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gotcha yeah that's good

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gotcha um I'd say actually

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having so uh I've set up

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like this eth node recently

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and um I've got to say like

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actually like the east

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stuff is relatively

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straightforward I've also

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inherited an eth node that

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I tried very very hard to not inherit

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um it's actually a fork of

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ethereum rather than rather

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than uh but um is you know

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one of those where you

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really don't want to be the

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last one standing when the

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check drops and you just

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keep saying oh like

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somebody's sending you

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emails or questions and

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you're like oh yeah that

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sounds like this here's a

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link to the documentation

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and then is it a validator

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is this an rbc node

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It's a validator.

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Oh, okay.

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All right.

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So there's a little bit more to it then?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's kind of like from

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walking around the code that is running,

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it's basically a Docker

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container that seems to be

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periodically restarting on

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a really old Ubuntu box.

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Uh-huh.

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on physical machines somewhere.

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You have to be on a specific

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network to access them.

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But anyway,

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I crawled around the box and

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read a bunch of configuration files.

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And from that,

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worked back to what it probably was,

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which is a fork.

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It's definitely a fork of Ethereum.

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It's, I think,

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a fork of post-merge Ethereum.

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Okay.

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But it appears to... See,

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I'm not fully au fait with the whole...

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Because Ethereum is like proof of stake,

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but the proof of work thing

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is still happening, right?

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Because although we've done the merge,

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there's still voting power

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on proof of work, right?

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I have no idea.

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Is there?

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I think so.

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Well, there's something weird with this.

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So there's something weird

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with this co-base that...

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I'm not fully convinced it

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is proof of stake.

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It's fucking slow, though.

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It is really, really slow.

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But I think that's more

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about the quality of

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hardware that nodes run.

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Anyway, I digress.

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Back to the

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Cosmos is quite easy to run, was my point.

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That could have been a reason,

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but I've laid out all my reasoning,

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you know, compared to apps and stuff,

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whatever.

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Anyway, so Cosmos is quite easy to run,

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but even so,

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barrier to entry was being

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able to run these things well.

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And we've talked on the

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podcast about this before,

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that we theorized a couple of years ago

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um the validators would

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become fungible over time

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right they become they

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become a commodity and then

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you have to differentiate

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yourself and this is

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something that um you know

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short c's big relayer

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operator you guys run a lot

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of rpcs relayers as well um

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obviously nullo does that

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um does that too and like

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pocket use all the backups

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you know things like that um

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And we're,

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we're kind of now in a point where,

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you know, is that enough?

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Is my question, I suppose, like how,

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just how,

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how fungible are validators now?

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Cause it felt like the, the,

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the conclusion of this conversation that,

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that,

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that we sort of had with Pocketry

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and a couple of other

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people was that the feeling

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was that there is a new,

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we're passing a new, um,

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like a new watershed or

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something where there's,

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some additional expectation

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on on what validators bring

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to a project to even be

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validated or to be

00:08:18.884 --> 00:08:20.547
validators that are in any

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way likely to be blessed

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enough yeah by a foundation

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that they will actually

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make profit right well I

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think it's also it changes

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a lot across different

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chains we've seen so some projects um

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You know,

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in a Cosmos-based proof-of-stake

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type of network where you

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might have 60 or 100

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validators and those slots are limited,

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and as a chain becomes

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higher in terms of just

00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:50.940
total value locked and as

00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:52.120
the validator is

00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:53.100
responsible for a

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significant amount of value

00:08:55.260 --> 00:08:57.682
that could be slashed, I do think that...

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that there still is a barrier to that,

00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:02.041
right?

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And I think that for larger delegations,

00:09:04.203 --> 00:09:05.765
there needs to be a set of

00:09:06.027 --> 00:09:07.828
criteria that I think those

00:09:07.849 --> 00:09:08.910
teams kind of look out for

00:09:08.951 --> 00:09:09.510
and things like that.

00:09:10.592 --> 00:09:12.335
What we have seen, what I saw in the past,

00:09:12.414 --> 00:09:13.317
I think I commented back

00:09:13.336 --> 00:09:14.177
when we were talking about this was,

00:09:15.225 --> 00:09:16.167
Like last year, the year before,

00:09:16.187 --> 00:09:16.866
you would start to see a

00:09:16.927 --> 00:09:17.668
lot of chains run

00:09:17.687 --> 00:09:18.729
validators on other chains.

00:09:18.928 --> 00:09:20.129
So they would do token swaps

00:09:20.188 --> 00:09:21.169
or some shit like that.

00:09:21.190 --> 00:09:22.730
And so like Chihuahua had a

00:09:22.750 --> 00:09:23.631
bunch of validators on

00:09:23.672 --> 00:09:24.591
different types of things

00:09:24.652 --> 00:09:25.633
that were taking slots from

00:09:25.673 --> 00:09:27.134
other node operators.

00:09:27.193 --> 00:09:29.556
And Stargaze runs an Osmosis one.

00:09:29.576 --> 00:09:30.816
They run a couple others, I think,

00:09:32.037 --> 00:09:32.356
as well.

00:09:32.398 --> 00:09:33.337
So like that started

00:09:33.357 --> 00:09:34.719
happening a little bit, which is actually,

00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:35.278
you know, whatever.

00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:36.779
Like I was joking then that

00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:37.821
we're going to have, you know,

00:09:37.841 --> 00:09:39.442
Cosmos is going to be, you know,

00:09:39.542 --> 00:09:41.023
it's a million chains or

00:09:41.082 --> 00:09:42.124
say it's a hundred chains and then

00:09:42.451 --> 00:09:43.152
Those 100 chains will be

00:09:43.172 --> 00:09:45.234
validated by the other 99 chains, right?

00:09:45.254 --> 00:09:46.014
Because they all have done

00:09:47.254 --> 00:09:48.275
token swaps and things like

00:09:48.296 --> 00:09:49.155
that to be able to run it.

00:09:49.196 --> 00:09:49.676
Yeah, totally.

00:09:50.596 --> 00:09:52.197
Now what we're seeing on some chains,

00:09:52.217 --> 00:09:53.198
which is totally different,

00:09:53.438 --> 00:09:56.201
is there are a tremendous

00:09:56.260 --> 00:09:57.461
amount of service

00:09:57.500 --> 00:10:00.482
organizations that provide value.

00:10:00.503 --> 00:10:02.583
It could be analytics.

00:10:02.684 --> 00:10:03.985
It could be security audits.

00:10:04.085 --> 00:10:05.586
It could be security reviews.

00:10:05.666 --> 00:10:06.106
It could be...

00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:08.159
other types of things that

00:10:08.179 --> 00:10:09.280
they're selling a product,

00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:11.240
like we're selling a service, right?

00:10:11.260 --> 00:10:12.380
We're selling expertise or

00:10:12.400 --> 00:10:13.541
we're selling some sort of product.

00:10:14.121 --> 00:10:15.761
And instead of selling that in USD,

00:10:16.182 --> 00:10:17.121
they stand up validators

00:10:17.162 --> 00:10:18.523
and they get large

00:10:18.543 --> 00:10:19.562
delegations from the team

00:10:19.623 --> 00:10:20.503
because the team doesn't

00:10:20.523 --> 00:10:21.562
have to actually have them

00:10:21.582 --> 00:10:22.143
to be a vendor.

00:10:22.602 --> 00:10:23.663
And they're actually not in the books,

00:10:24.803 --> 00:10:24.964
right?

00:10:25.004 --> 00:10:26.864
There's no, I mean, I don't even know.

00:10:26.884 --> 00:10:28.524
There's no, there's no, like, they're not.

00:10:28.585 --> 00:10:29.345
There's no agreement.

00:10:29.864 --> 00:10:30.104
Yeah.

00:10:30.163 --> 00:10:31.004
There's no, there's no, well,

00:10:31.024 --> 00:10:31.725
there could be an agreement.

00:10:31.745 --> 00:10:32.784
There could be an agreement for it.

00:10:32.865 --> 00:10:33.044
Sure.

00:10:33.245 --> 00:10:33.905
There might be an agreement

00:10:33.966 --> 00:10:35.125
or a memo saying we're

00:10:35.145 --> 00:10:36.267
going to stake some stuff to you,

00:10:36.346 --> 00:10:37.106
but it will be, you know,

00:10:37.246 --> 00:10:38.106
from some entity in the

00:10:38.126 --> 00:10:39.427
Caymans islands or whatever.

00:10:39.488 --> 00:10:42.089
So it may as well be written on moon dust.

00:10:42.168 --> 00:10:45.009
It's not, it's not, it's not a PNL, right?

00:10:45.029 --> 00:10:46.390
There's nothing on the PNL.

00:10:46.571 --> 00:10:47.792
So it's like,

00:10:47.812 --> 00:10:49.912
if they stake to me or you or them,

00:10:51.192 --> 00:10:51.793
that's this commission

00:10:51.812 --> 00:10:52.513
that's coming off the top.

00:10:52.653 --> 00:10:53.494
All they have is the inbound,

00:10:53.514 --> 00:10:54.874
which is just the, uh,

00:10:54.913 --> 00:10:55.835
the rewards coming from that.

00:10:55.875 --> 00:10:56.014
Right.

00:10:56.971 --> 00:10:59.091
The other 95% of if it's a 5%.

00:10:59.932 --> 00:11:01.613
And so we're seeing that happen a lot.

00:11:01.633 --> 00:11:02.553
Like you see a lot of

00:11:02.573 --> 00:11:04.014
security audit teams running validators.

00:11:04.053 --> 00:11:05.815
You see a lot of analytics

00:11:05.835 --> 00:11:06.554
teams running validators.

00:11:07.035 --> 00:11:09.135
And that is because that

00:11:09.177 --> 00:11:10.216
turns into a profitable

00:11:10.317 --> 00:11:11.518
type of thing where they

00:11:11.557 --> 00:11:12.238
might be able to charge

00:11:12.357 --> 00:11:13.457
higher for amounts because

00:11:13.477 --> 00:11:14.458
they're not in the P&L.

00:11:14.918 --> 00:11:15.960
And those are rewards going

00:11:16.019 --> 00:11:16.799
out the door anyway.

00:11:17.482 --> 00:11:18.524
because typically right

00:11:18.604 --> 00:11:19.966
these things you know I

00:11:20.005 --> 00:11:20.966
guess especially for a

00:11:20.986 --> 00:11:22.188
security audit like you

00:11:22.288 --> 00:11:23.951
know there's a few gotchas

00:11:23.990 --> 00:11:25.011
here right which is the

00:11:25.111 --> 00:11:26.494
number one you have to be a

00:11:26.533 --> 00:11:28.096
chain that is going to make

00:11:28.196 --> 00:11:29.717
money for a validator with

00:11:29.758 --> 00:11:30.418
a significant enough

00:11:30.437 --> 00:11:31.919
delegation that's not a

00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:33.241
given there's absolutely a

00:11:33.282 --> 00:11:34.263
handful of cosmos chains

00:11:34.322 --> 00:11:35.484
it's probably under 10

00:11:35.484 --> 00:11:37.447
cosmos right yeah um

00:11:39.548 --> 00:11:40.988
Obviously other networks

00:11:41.128 --> 00:11:42.687
exist and it's still

00:11:42.727 --> 00:11:43.928
profitable to validate those.

00:11:45.609 --> 00:11:45.928
But like,

00:11:45.948 --> 00:11:47.850
I kind of vaguely remember looking,

00:11:48.090 --> 00:11:49.029
we did a little bit of

00:11:49.049 --> 00:11:50.331
looking into auditing for

00:11:50.410 --> 00:11:52.091
HAL back in the day, you may recall.

00:11:53.991 --> 00:11:55.471
And the quotes on auditing

00:11:55.511 --> 00:11:56.393
for that were anywhere

00:11:56.653 --> 00:11:56.993
between $50,000 and $250,000.

00:11:56.993 --> 00:11:57.393
For a review, right?

00:11:57.413 --> 00:11:57.952
What's that, sorry?

00:12:04.274 --> 00:12:05.635
for like for an actual audit

00:12:06.157 --> 00:12:07.477
so say whatever that is how

00:12:07.518 --> 00:12:08.258
long is that how long do

00:12:08.278 --> 00:12:09.599
those things take it's like

00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:10.679
a five-week process or

00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:11.301
something like are they

00:12:11.321 --> 00:12:12.140
actually going that deep or

00:12:12.181 --> 00:12:13.001
is it like somebody looks

00:12:13.062 --> 00:12:14.182
at it for an afternoon they

00:12:14.202 --> 00:12:15.264
go through they go through

00:12:15.303 --> 00:12:16.384
it line by line and they

00:12:16.404 --> 00:12:18.947
give you a pedantic um a

00:12:18.966 --> 00:12:20.607
pedantic assessment of of

00:12:20.927 --> 00:12:22.308
of how bad your rust code

00:12:22.408 --> 00:12:24.211
is um do they offer

00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:25.032
solutions they just point

00:12:25.091 --> 00:12:27.253
out problems uh they do I

00:12:27.614 --> 00:12:28.453
think for certain types of

00:12:28.474 --> 00:12:29.774
solution and certain types

00:12:29.815 --> 00:12:30.755
of problems where they know

00:12:30.796 --> 00:12:31.756
the solution they

00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:34.861
offer the solution but other

00:12:34.881 --> 00:12:36.325
than that they kind of they

00:12:36.345 --> 00:12:37.206
give you I think they quite

00:12:37.226 --> 00:12:37.908
often give you a general

00:12:38.048 --> 00:12:39.471
area of like improvement

00:12:40.153 --> 00:12:41.475
rather than do they ensure

00:12:41.495 --> 00:12:43.220
those at all do you know

00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.743
they ensure those

00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:47.820
If they make a change and

00:12:48.061 --> 00:12:49.880
they provide you code to fix that change,

00:12:50.321 --> 00:12:51.740
there's an exploit that's tied to that.

00:12:53.822 --> 00:12:54.721
My understanding is they're

00:12:54.782 --> 00:12:55.621
not that specific.

00:12:56.261 --> 00:12:57.883
They don't do anything that

00:12:58.302 --> 00:12:59.842
would put their business at risk.

00:13:01.982 --> 00:13:02.884
My understanding is they

00:13:02.964 --> 00:13:03.844
don't do anything that puts

00:13:03.864 --> 00:13:04.543
their business at risk.

00:13:04.563 --> 00:13:06.063
They just make general area

00:13:06.083 --> 00:13:07.924
suggestions like this is a

00:13:07.965 --> 00:13:09.325
known exploit or this is

00:13:09.445 --> 00:13:11.565
exploitable or this has these problems.

00:13:11.965 --> 00:13:12.806
But I mean, again,

00:13:12.846 --> 00:13:14.206
if you're working in something like Rust,

00:13:14.265 --> 00:13:14.806
like you're

00:13:17.426 --> 00:13:19.609
your attack surface is lower

00:13:19.809 --> 00:13:20.910
because those sorts of things,

00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:22.793
like the very obvious

00:13:22.833 --> 00:13:23.775
program error is quite

00:13:23.796 --> 00:13:25.618
often caught by the compiler.

00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:28.261
And then if you're working in a VM,

00:13:29.058 --> 00:13:30.700
like the vm will catch it or

00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:31.980
the bug will be in the vm

00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:32.921
and actually that's your

00:13:32.961 --> 00:13:34.201
biggest risk is probably

00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:34.961
that there's some

00:13:35.642 --> 00:13:37.042
non-determinism at the vm

00:13:37.081 --> 00:13:38.043
level or that is

00:13:38.123 --> 00:13:39.462
exploitable in a way that

00:13:39.503 --> 00:13:40.764
the client could exploit it

00:13:41.244 --> 00:13:42.985
yeah um because it's

00:13:43.065 --> 00:13:44.445
programmable and actually

00:13:44.504 --> 00:13:45.505
potentially is just

00:13:45.605 --> 00:13:46.745
unknowable to you as a

00:13:46.785 --> 00:13:47.947
programmer because you know

00:13:48.466 --> 00:13:49.667
the halting problem right

00:13:50.107 --> 00:13:52.528
yeah um so so I don't know

00:13:52.567 --> 00:13:53.969
like I've seen the reports

00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:56.110
that have come back um like

00:13:56.169 --> 00:13:57.269
pre-reports and things so

00:13:57.289 --> 00:13:58.410
not the one at the end

00:13:59.995 --> 00:14:01.956
public see for for other

00:14:01.996 --> 00:14:04.620
projects and yeah there

00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:05.660
wasn't that there wasn't

00:14:05.701 --> 00:14:06.861
that level of specificity

00:14:06.881 --> 00:14:07.923
there was like this is a

00:14:07.982 --> 00:14:09.504
pattern to avoid in this

00:14:09.563 --> 00:14:11.385
context but it wasn't like

00:14:11.405 --> 00:14:12.147
here's the solution it was

00:14:12.167 --> 00:14:13.889
like you google what we've

00:14:13.928 --> 00:14:14.950
said and figure it out for

00:14:14.970 --> 00:14:16.490
yourself but I don't know

00:14:16.691 --> 00:14:17.812
if you paid the full

00:14:17.952 --> 00:14:18.873
quarter of a million or whatever

00:14:19.714 --> 00:14:20.693
because I don't know what

00:14:20.754 --> 00:14:21.595
stage these were when they

00:14:21.634 --> 00:14:22.615
were passed on to me is

00:14:22.674 --> 00:14:23.414
like hey what's your

00:14:23.434 --> 00:14:24.835
opinion on this sure like

00:14:25.195 --> 00:14:26.336
it might be that if at the

00:14:26.436 --> 00:14:27.676
earlier stage they had said

00:14:27.735 --> 00:14:28.456
literally I'll change this

00:14:28.495 --> 00:14:29.317
line of code change that

00:14:29.336 --> 00:14:31.897
line okay so the answer is

00:14:31.956 --> 00:14:33.337
I can't be certain but I

00:14:33.618 --> 00:14:34.878
suspect that they wouldn't

00:14:34.977 --> 00:14:36.278
want to put their balls on

00:14:36.298 --> 00:14:37.278
the line for that it would

00:14:37.578 --> 00:14:38.519
be silly to do so

00:14:39.215 --> 00:14:39.936
that's a tough,

00:14:40.556 --> 00:14:41.517
that's a tough thing to buy into.

00:14:41.616 --> 00:14:42.418
Like I, like we've,

00:14:42.618 --> 00:14:43.678
we've consulted not here,

00:14:43.739 --> 00:14:44.779
but in my past lives,

00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:45.580
like I've consulted with

00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:47.240
like really specialty

00:14:47.341 --> 00:14:49.263
organizations that solve a

00:14:49.322 --> 00:14:50.524
very specific problem.

00:14:51.445 --> 00:14:53.927
And it's really tough to know.

00:14:54.527 --> 00:14:55.648
I think in all those situations,

00:14:55.668 --> 00:14:56.489
I've been disappointed.

00:14:57.350 --> 00:14:57.909
Every one of those,

00:14:58.129 --> 00:14:58.870
like every one of those,

00:14:58.890 --> 00:14:59.551
some of those things are

00:14:59.571 --> 00:15:00.812
pointing out obvious or like, yeah,

00:15:00.831 --> 00:15:01.332
it makes sense.

00:15:01.432 --> 00:15:01.472
Or,

00:15:02.457 --> 00:15:03.441
or something similar to that.

00:15:03.500 --> 00:15:05.424
And also you always think that like, well,

00:15:06.508 --> 00:15:07.629
is there other things that were missed?

00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:08.552
And now you create more

00:15:08.611 --> 00:15:09.554
questions related to what

00:15:09.595 --> 00:15:10.857
comes back or you look at it and say,

00:15:10.898 --> 00:15:12.159
this wasn't worth fucking anything.

00:15:13.653 --> 00:15:14.514
And especially if that thing

00:15:14.554 --> 00:15:15.395
comes back clean,

00:15:15.416 --> 00:15:16.336
you have like a false sense

00:15:16.356 --> 00:15:17.837
of security associated to something.

00:15:18.719 --> 00:15:19.639
It's a tough business to be

00:15:19.659 --> 00:15:21.422
able to scale in any sort of way, right?

00:15:21.822 --> 00:15:22.744
It's a tough business to be

00:15:23.124 --> 00:15:25.166
experts in a thing and try to scale that,

00:15:25.346 --> 00:15:26.246
right?

00:15:26.727 --> 00:15:27.347
So it's also so

00:15:27.368 --> 00:15:29.070
intrinsically tied to hours, right?

00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:31.653
So it's kind of back to the

00:15:31.692 --> 00:15:32.874
problem actually, which is...

00:15:33.715 --> 00:15:35.196
validating is better for

00:15:35.216 --> 00:15:36.395
this than consulting and

00:15:36.436 --> 00:15:38.136
that you're not 100 tied

00:15:38.177 --> 00:15:39.116
your hours but there is a

00:15:39.157 --> 00:15:40.437
point where that's

00:15:40.517 --> 00:15:41.738
validating is very very

00:15:41.778 --> 00:15:42.697
tied to two things the

00:15:42.738 --> 00:15:43.538
amount of time you can

00:15:43.577 --> 00:15:45.198
spend marketing and soaping

00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:46.339
foundations and the amount

00:15:46.359 --> 00:15:47.059
of time you can spend

00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.879
running nodes right both of

00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:49.841
which are time bound by the

00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:50.801
number of operative hours

00:15:50.821 --> 00:15:54.001
you have and the you know

00:15:54.022 --> 00:15:54.841
it's back to the picking

00:15:54.861 --> 00:15:56.222
winners it like running a

00:15:56.243 --> 00:15:57.503
validator business becomes

00:15:57.802 --> 00:15:59.524
gambling eventually yeah yeah

00:16:00.203 --> 00:16:03.447
Um, but you know, the flip side of that is,

00:16:03.488 --> 00:16:03.748
you know,

00:16:03.807 --> 00:16:05.450
you can do safer things like consulting,

00:16:05.529 --> 00:16:06.671
but then you have to a,

00:16:06.951 --> 00:16:08.491
with a huge amount of confidence,

00:16:08.511 --> 00:16:10.254
say we are experts in it,

00:16:10.553 --> 00:16:11.315
which is actually the,

00:16:11.394 --> 00:16:11.995
that's the problem I've

00:16:12.015 --> 00:16:13.297
always had with consulting in general,

00:16:13.336 --> 00:16:15.678
like your security example, like, um,

00:16:17.301 --> 00:16:18.802
I've done a lot of the law

00:16:18.822 --> 00:16:19.802
of work and a lot of

00:16:19.864 --> 00:16:21.044
literature review now on

00:16:21.144 --> 00:16:22.485
consensus systems, for example,

00:16:22.505 --> 00:16:23.086
I've had to, um,

00:16:24.794 --> 00:16:26.775
But I would feel relatively

00:16:26.836 --> 00:16:27.756
uncomfortable saying that I

00:16:27.817 --> 00:16:30.258
am a consensus expert because, well,

00:16:30.278 --> 00:16:31.177
number one, I don't think I am.

00:16:31.238 --> 00:16:34.580
But number two, it's like compared to who,

00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:34.799
right?

00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:36.000
Compared to somebody on the street?

00:16:36.061 --> 00:16:36.301
Sure.

00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:37.282
Compared to another engineer?

00:16:37.381 --> 00:16:37.621
Sure.

00:16:37.701 --> 00:16:38.902
Compared to a smart contract

00:16:38.942 --> 00:16:39.543
engineer who's never

00:16:39.582 --> 00:16:40.562
thought about consensus,

00:16:41.024 --> 00:16:41.803
like in the layer below the

00:16:41.844 --> 00:16:42.423
bit they write on?

00:16:42.965 --> 00:16:43.225
Sure.

00:16:44.806 --> 00:16:45.505
You go, okay,

00:16:45.546 --> 00:16:47.006
we have a problem with our...

00:16:47.126 --> 00:16:48.246
We've forked near.

00:16:49.248 --> 00:16:50.087
We want to deploy in this

00:16:50.128 --> 00:16:51.009
business context.

00:16:51.469 --> 00:16:52.649
We have this specific problem.

00:16:53.595 --> 00:16:54.515
can we pay you for two days

00:16:54.556 --> 00:16:55.498
to come in and figure it out?

00:16:56.038 --> 00:17:00.224
I'll be like, no, that is a, that is a,

00:17:00.303 --> 00:17:03.248
that is a cool.

00:17:03.368 --> 00:17:05.990
Let's come in, sit around a whiteboard,

00:17:06.271 --> 00:17:07.794
have a talk, have a think about it.

00:17:07.854 --> 00:17:09.174
I'll go away, sleep on it.

00:17:10.063 --> 00:17:10.883
do some reading,

00:17:13.125 --> 00:17:14.905
sketch some stuff out in a text editor,

00:17:14.925 --> 00:17:16.646
play around with some Rust,

00:17:17.487 --> 00:17:18.448
come back in a couple of weeks,

00:17:18.488 --> 00:17:18.968
have another chat.

00:17:19.147 --> 00:17:20.628
Do you know what I mean?

00:17:21.128 --> 00:17:23.010
I'm so... I can't really...

00:17:24.038 --> 00:17:24.999
I think maybe it's just the

00:17:25.038 --> 00:17:25.940
way my mind works.

00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:26.779
Maybe some people just

00:17:26.859 --> 00:17:27.799
literally can walk in the

00:17:27.819 --> 00:17:28.621
room and be like, bam,

00:17:28.661 --> 00:17:29.721
there's your solution.

00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:31.301
But I don't know.

00:17:31.321 --> 00:17:32.301
I just feel like it takes so

00:17:32.321 --> 00:17:34.182
long to load a problem into my brain.

00:17:34.423 --> 00:17:35.843
Well, I think that's fair.

00:17:35.962 --> 00:17:37.644
To understand the

00:17:37.804 --> 00:17:39.084
implications of the problem, right?

00:17:39.104 --> 00:17:41.224
I never feel like I'm an expert in it,

00:17:41.244 --> 00:17:41.505
you know?

00:17:41.865 --> 00:17:43.145
Plus all those contracts are point in time,

00:17:43.185 --> 00:17:44.185
right?

00:17:44.425 --> 00:17:45.286
Like you do the first one

00:17:45.306 --> 00:17:45.906
and then you want to come

00:17:45.926 --> 00:17:46.846
back and do something else.

00:17:46.906 --> 00:17:48.807
So your point earlier around

00:17:48.827 --> 00:17:50.248
like having that –

00:17:50.248 --> 00:17:50.748
Instead of just an

00:17:50.807 --> 00:17:51.568
open-ended consulting

00:17:51.608 --> 00:17:53.269
agreement or if it's just a fixed-time,

00:17:53.309 --> 00:17:53.990
fixed-price thing where

00:17:54.010 --> 00:17:54.631
you're just doing a

00:17:54.651 --> 00:17:56.511
specific response to a set

00:17:56.531 --> 00:17:58.554
of contracts that you're launching with.

00:17:58.574 --> 00:17:59.173
That's one thing.

00:17:59.233 --> 00:18:01.875
But in this situation where

00:18:01.895 --> 00:18:02.876
they're not on the P&L,

00:18:03.336 --> 00:18:04.137
that they might be on some

00:18:04.157 --> 00:18:05.999
sort of just commissioned retainer,

00:18:06.219 --> 00:18:06.920
if you want to call it that,

00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:07.799
whatever the hell you call this.

00:18:08.421 --> 00:18:10.102
And then as long as they're adding value,

00:18:10.122 --> 00:18:11.021
then they receive commissions.

00:18:11.063 --> 00:18:11.702
And once they stop,

00:18:11.722 --> 00:18:12.703
then they... Or at least

00:18:12.923 --> 00:18:14.904
they're getting... And once they stop,

00:18:14.924 --> 00:18:15.365
you yank it.

00:18:15.905 --> 00:18:17.307
What's the expectation there?

00:18:17.426 --> 00:18:18.667
It's really interesting because...

00:18:20.529 --> 00:18:21.972
I mean, also just the amount of money,

00:18:22.032 --> 00:18:23.915
like the cost of these audits,

00:18:23.955 --> 00:18:25.238
they are very expensive.

00:18:25.258 --> 00:18:26.019
Yeah.

00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:27.701
It almost wouldn't surprise

00:18:27.721 --> 00:18:29.404
me if that delegation is there.

00:18:31.773 --> 00:18:33.395
almost in perpetuity until

00:18:33.675 --> 00:18:34.636
the wind changes and they

00:18:34.676 --> 00:18:36.759
decide to yank it yeah yeah

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.301
well I mean but to pay off

00:18:39.342 --> 00:18:40.083
like yeah if it's like a

00:18:40.123 --> 00:18:40.963
quarter of a million dollar

00:18:41.023 --> 00:18:42.204
audit or something you're

00:18:42.224 --> 00:18:43.646
gonna have to be validating

00:18:43.686 --> 00:18:44.887
a cosmos network with a

00:18:44.928 --> 00:18:46.009
healthy delegation for a

00:18:46.048 --> 00:18:47.971
very fucking long time yeah

00:18:48.070 --> 00:18:49.211
to get that money back and

00:18:49.251 --> 00:18:50.292
you're gonna have mouths to

00:18:50.333 --> 00:18:51.575
feed in the in the meantime

00:18:51.654 --> 00:18:52.476
right you know that the

00:18:52.516 --> 00:18:53.256
kind of engineers that can

00:18:53.277 --> 00:18:53.977
do those audits uh

00:18:55.127 --> 00:18:56.388
Those are the reason that

00:18:56.490 --> 00:18:57.349
costs what it does is

00:18:57.431 --> 00:18:59.232
because that's what those salaries cost.

00:18:59.272 --> 00:19:00.094
And that might be your only

00:19:00.173 --> 00:19:01.154
audit that year, you know?

00:19:01.575 --> 00:19:01.674
Yeah.

00:19:01.714 --> 00:19:02.276
And this, I mean,

00:19:02.296 --> 00:19:03.917
this chain has a pretty decent,

00:19:04.038 --> 00:19:05.759
like a decent price where

00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.021
it can afford that or it can, it can,

00:19:08.423 --> 00:19:10.806
it can support those.

00:19:11.747 --> 00:19:12.207
This one, they're,

00:19:12.267 --> 00:19:13.327
they're doing it with one

00:19:13.588 --> 00:19:14.670
analytics term and four

00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:15.611
separate security firms.

00:19:16.699 --> 00:19:17.900
My only issue with that also, like,

00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:19.240
so I guess I get that.

00:19:19.259 --> 00:19:20.259
Like, I get it from a, I mean,

00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:21.060
it's clearly good for the

00:19:21.101 --> 00:19:22.461
foundation because, I mean,

00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:23.540
they're making the other

00:19:23.540 --> 00:19:25.321
95% on that staked amount, number one.

00:19:25.922 --> 00:19:27.583
So things are good, right?

00:19:27.843 --> 00:19:28.643
Wallets are increasing.

00:19:28.923 --> 00:19:29.523
I understand that that

00:19:29.564 --> 00:19:31.644
doesn't mean it's money in, but whatever.

00:19:32.605 --> 00:19:33.865
Their tokens continue to increase.

00:19:34.025 --> 00:19:35.526
They're taking a small slice

00:19:35.546 --> 00:19:36.266
of that and being able to

00:19:36.306 --> 00:19:38.086
pay a vendor basically off the books,

00:19:39.227 --> 00:19:40.567
basically is what that is, right?

00:19:40.606 --> 00:19:44.249
You have an inflated P&L and

00:19:44.348 --> 00:19:44.749
even if you have,

00:19:45.338 --> 00:19:46.380
protocol revenue coming in.

00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:47.901
Like it looks better because

00:19:47.921 --> 00:19:50.663
you're taking whatever, uh, I don't know,

00:19:50.843 --> 00:19:52.083
like this quick math,

00:19:52.144 --> 00:19:55.065
probably two and a half

00:19:55.125 --> 00:19:57.106
million dollars a year off the PNL.

00:19:58.407 --> 00:19:58.548
Right.

00:19:58.567 --> 00:19:59.167
And you're just doing it

00:19:59.188 --> 00:19:59.949
through this commission thing.

00:19:59.989 --> 00:20:00.828
So that looks great.

00:20:01.169 --> 00:20:02.089
Like that's fucking awesome.

00:20:02.250 --> 00:20:03.090
Like it's nice to be able to

00:20:03.131 --> 00:20:04.432
not show that as being a loss.

00:20:05.071 --> 00:20:06.272
Like it's a win-win for everybody,

00:20:06.393 --> 00:20:09.894
except for node ops who, who those,

00:20:10.276 --> 00:20:11.336
those groups are displacing.

00:20:12.297 --> 00:20:12.376
Um,

00:20:12.864 --> 00:20:14.724
And what I found is like in some of these,

00:20:14.785 --> 00:20:15.644
they're just not,

00:20:16.365 --> 00:20:17.747
like that is not their core business.

00:20:18.346 --> 00:20:19.527
And in some of these chains

00:20:19.567 --> 00:20:20.928
where it's been more challenging,

00:20:21.709 --> 00:20:22.689
they haven't done very well,

00:20:23.108 --> 00:20:24.349
like in terms of delivering

00:20:25.069 --> 00:20:25.651
infrastructure.

00:20:25.691 --> 00:20:26.490
Like we've helped those

00:20:26.570 --> 00:20:27.672
teams behind the scenes in

00:20:27.692 --> 00:20:28.432
some areas that you can

00:20:28.471 --> 00:20:29.452
tell that they're not using

00:20:29.512 --> 00:20:32.074
like remote signers and they're not,

00:20:32.894 --> 00:20:33.314
there's no,

00:20:33.434 --> 00:20:34.375
like there might be some

00:20:34.414 --> 00:20:35.395
security practices there,

00:20:35.435 --> 00:20:36.175
but they're not familiar

00:20:36.195 --> 00:20:38.017
with the software or the protocol.

00:20:38.859 --> 00:20:40.080
And so you're just basically

00:20:40.340 --> 00:20:41.701
delegating to somebody

00:20:42.401 --> 00:20:44.442
that's doing this as a, you know,

00:20:44.602 --> 00:20:45.403
it's not the main business.

00:20:45.423 --> 00:20:46.222
It's like a side business.

00:20:46.242 --> 00:20:47.083
There's just, yeah, exactly.

00:20:47.103 --> 00:20:48.864
It's just like a, and then, you know,

00:20:49.003 --> 00:20:50.484
ultimately they'll start going, okay,

00:20:50.505 --> 00:20:51.644
well, if we're doing this in the long run,

00:20:51.684 --> 00:20:52.625
should we just delegate it

00:20:52.645 --> 00:20:53.506
to somebody else or hire

00:20:53.526 --> 00:20:54.346
somebody that already knows

00:20:54.365 --> 00:20:55.307
how to do this?

00:20:55.406 --> 00:20:56.186
Which we've seen elsewhere.

00:20:56.207 --> 00:20:56.547
Yeah.

00:20:59.083 --> 00:21:00.044
nolan I ran into a group

00:21:00.064 --> 00:21:01.865
that that took a bunch of

00:21:02.365 --> 00:21:03.267
delegation from both of us

00:21:03.346 --> 00:21:05.269
actually on a chain and we

00:21:05.308 --> 00:21:06.549
ran into them at an event

00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:07.631
in austin I was like I'm

00:21:07.671 --> 00:21:09.153
like you guys I'm like and

00:21:09.173 --> 00:21:09.833
like they're really nice

00:21:09.873 --> 00:21:10.794
guys they're actually like

00:21:10.814 --> 00:21:11.694
they hired a really strong

00:21:11.894 --> 00:21:12.596
they have a strong team

00:21:12.736 --> 00:21:14.637
that does this and um they

00:21:14.678 --> 00:21:15.558
execute well like I've

00:21:15.578 --> 00:21:16.298
helped them we've helped

00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:17.119
both of us help them behind

00:21:17.140 --> 00:21:18.141
the scenes we were joking

00:21:18.161 --> 00:21:18.781
about that but like

00:21:19.281 --> 00:21:19.481
I'm like,

00:21:19.501 --> 00:21:20.343
that's the only reason I'm not

00:21:20.403 --> 00:21:21.864
pissed is because you could

00:21:21.884 --> 00:21:22.424
take our delegation,

00:21:22.444 --> 00:21:23.346
but at least you're signing

00:21:23.385 --> 00:21:23.965
a hundred percent,

00:21:24.086 --> 00:21:24.686
like at least you have your

00:21:24.707 --> 00:21:25.086
shit together.

00:21:25.106 --> 00:21:26.728
Somebody comes in, like takes,

00:21:27.409 --> 00:21:28.250
takes a hundred million

00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:29.711
delegation towards from us.

00:21:29.770 --> 00:21:32.232
And then like has a 77% signing ratio.

00:21:32.252 --> 00:21:33.413
Like, what the hell are you doing?

00:21:33.594 --> 00:21:33.713
Like,

00:21:34.115 --> 00:21:35.855
like I understand why to get them anyway.

00:21:36.396 --> 00:21:36.696
That's when,

00:21:36.757 --> 00:21:38.159
that's when the finance of the

00:21:38.179 --> 00:21:39.480
business out drives what

00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:40.540
the actual execution is.

00:21:40.701 --> 00:21:40.840
Right.

00:21:40.861 --> 00:21:42.382
But then it's like, uh, so back to the,

00:21:42.402 --> 00:21:42.582
you know,

00:21:42.602 --> 00:21:43.462
back to what we were saying

00:21:43.482 --> 00:21:44.624
about consulting before,

00:21:44.683 --> 00:21:46.586
like those businesses, they,

00:21:46.685 --> 00:21:47.686
they primarily are some

00:21:47.727 --> 00:21:48.968
version of like consulting.

00:21:48.988 --> 00:21:52.671
So, uh, time for, you know,

00:21:52.810 --> 00:21:54.451
maybe less so the analytics example,

00:21:54.491 --> 00:21:55.113
cause they're just going to

00:21:55.153 --> 00:21:56.713
put up a fancy dashboard and keep it up.

00:21:56.733 --> 00:21:56.894
Right.

00:21:57.674 --> 00:21:57.855
Um,

00:21:58.976 --> 00:22:00.257
but like a lot of the others are sort

00:22:00.297 --> 00:22:01.637
of time for money.

00:22:01.919 --> 00:22:02.098
Right.

00:22:02.818 --> 00:22:03.038
And, um,

00:22:04.166 --> 00:22:06.368
the it's really interesting

00:22:06.388 --> 00:22:06.989
because the whole point of

00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:07.829
the validated business the

00:22:07.849 --> 00:22:08.990
reason it's in it the

00:22:09.029 --> 00:22:10.411
reason it's potentially

00:22:11.231 --> 00:22:12.152
worth building a business

00:22:12.192 --> 00:22:13.973
around is that it scales

00:22:14.094 --> 00:22:15.694
like so you know there's

00:22:15.714 --> 00:22:19.917
this like um there's like

00:22:19.938 --> 00:22:20.817
an obsession at the moment

00:22:20.837 --> 00:22:22.058
for like calling a lot of

00:22:22.078 --> 00:22:22.900
small businesses I've

00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:23.839
noticed call themselves

00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:25.260
startups right and it's

00:22:25.300 --> 00:22:26.162
like no you're a fucking

00:22:26.182 --> 00:22:30.305
coffee shop yeah like you don't like like

00:22:31.218 --> 00:22:33.659
you're not, we've got really rapid growth.

00:22:33.739 --> 00:22:35.038
You're still a fucking coffee shop.

00:22:36.378 --> 00:22:39.619
If your entire business was we,

00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:41.359
I don't know,

00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.340
we connect direct selling

00:22:44.401 --> 00:22:45.921
coffee growers with

00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.781
consumers so they can sell B to C,

00:22:49.402 --> 00:22:50.721
that is a startup because

00:22:50.741 --> 00:22:51.801
you have created a new

00:22:51.862 --> 00:22:53.642
market and your ability to

00:22:53.761 --> 00:22:55.962
scale that market is beyond

00:22:56.991 --> 00:22:58.031
the number of people you

00:22:58.071 --> 00:22:59.271
have in the building, right?

00:22:59.613 --> 00:23:01.553
You can scale that pretty

00:23:01.593 --> 00:23:02.553
much infinitely as long as

00:23:02.573 --> 00:23:03.653
you keep paying Jeff Bezos

00:23:03.673 --> 00:23:04.913
for more AWS service.

00:23:05.013 --> 00:23:05.834
You don't need more people

00:23:05.874 --> 00:23:06.374
in the building.

00:23:06.534 --> 00:23:08.814
You don't need more HR people,

00:23:08.894 --> 00:23:12.035
business support, office space, shipping,

00:23:12.134 --> 00:23:13.075
trucks, whatever.

00:23:13.295 --> 00:23:15.075
That's the definition of a startup,

00:23:15.115 --> 00:23:16.375
your ability to scale

00:23:16.516 --> 00:23:20.135
beyond an idea of variable costs,

00:23:20.155 --> 00:23:21.957
like an outside multiplier, right?

00:23:21.977 --> 00:23:22.636
Okay.

00:23:24.374 --> 00:23:25.634
The thing about validation

00:23:25.734 --> 00:23:28.718
is it's almost a startup in

00:23:28.798 --> 00:23:32.279
that if you don't run your own tin,

00:23:32.441 --> 00:23:33.622
and even if you do buy your

00:23:33.642 --> 00:23:34.842
own tin to some extent,

00:23:34.902 --> 00:23:36.324
depending on the accounting

00:23:36.364 --> 00:23:37.724
practices in the country you live in,

00:23:38.625 --> 00:23:41.867
you can potentially do a multiplier

00:23:42.825 --> 00:23:44.586
way more than your head count,

00:23:44.645 --> 00:23:45.926
your fixed cost, your variable cost,

00:23:45.946 --> 00:23:46.688
that kind of thing, right?

00:23:47.407 --> 00:23:47.888
And so, yeah,

00:23:47.909 --> 00:23:48.969
maybe it does fall into

00:23:49.009 --> 00:23:49.809
startup territory.

00:23:50.309 --> 00:23:51.310
But what's interesting about

00:23:51.330 --> 00:23:52.251
this new development where

00:23:52.291 --> 00:23:53.192
people are expecting

00:23:53.692 --> 00:23:55.814
specific deliverables in

00:23:55.874 --> 00:23:57.494
return is it's pushing

00:23:57.914 --> 00:24:00.317
validation organizations, node operators,

00:24:01.077 --> 00:24:02.038
back into a position,

00:24:02.137 --> 00:24:03.259
especially independent ones,

00:24:03.298 --> 00:24:05.320
because I don't see Figment having their

00:24:06.701 --> 00:24:07.922
feet held to the fire.

00:24:07.961 --> 00:24:08.542
But I guess, you know,

00:24:08.583 --> 00:24:10.023
those guys are investing VC, right?

00:24:10.044 --> 00:24:11.964
So they, you know, they,

00:24:12.026 --> 00:24:13.646
they're actually not validators.

00:24:13.727 --> 00:24:15.468
They are off the book.

00:24:15.567 --> 00:24:16.429
They are investors who are

00:24:16.449 --> 00:24:17.229
getting an off the books

00:24:17.249 --> 00:24:19.191
return on their own money

00:24:19.431 --> 00:24:21.613
or somebody else's or combination or.

00:24:22.012 --> 00:24:23.233
Yeah, but they, they worked, they worked.

00:24:23.773 --> 00:24:25.295
That's the other way though, right?

00:24:25.336 --> 00:24:26.576
They started as a validator.

00:24:26.596 --> 00:24:28.377
Then you build capital to be

00:24:28.397 --> 00:24:30.118
able to expand and build

00:24:30.159 --> 00:24:31.400
chains and do whatever else, which,

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:32.780
which doesn't necessarily

00:24:32.820 --> 00:24:33.461
mean that they're still,

00:24:34.570 --> 00:24:35.432
I'm not picking on Figma.

00:24:35.574 --> 00:24:36.234
I'm saying that doesn't

00:24:36.255 --> 00:24:37.097
necessarily mean that there's still

00:24:38.089 --> 00:24:39.490
good validator because those

00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:40.471
individuals may have moved

00:24:40.672 --> 00:24:41.751
on or it's a different now

00:24:41.771 --> 00:24:42.153
it's a different

00:24:42.173 --> 00:24:44.034
organization right um but

00:24:44.374 --> 00:24:45.394
it's different from from

00:24:45.654 --> 00:24:46.914
like hey like something

00:24:46.934 --> 00:24:47.655
like block demon or

00:24:47.675 --> 00:24:48.256
something I think they're

00:24:48.276 --> 00:24:49.237
the same right and they're

00:24:49.257 --> 00:24:50.196
the ones that double sign

00:24:50.237 --> 00:24:52.939
twice and you know and you

00:24:53.058 --> 00:24:54.099
know they're just every

00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:55.220
conference or every event

00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:56.240
you see is like sponsored

00:24:56.260 --> 00:24:57.241
by block demon you're like

00:24:57.261 --> 00:24:58.762
yeah okay whatever right

00:24:58.823 --> 00:25:00.624
right but but but I guess

00:25:00.663 --> 00:25:01.503
back to the so back to my

00:25:01.523 --> 00:25:02.285
point though which is this

00:25:02.384 --> 00:25:02.765
I think this

00:25:02.845 --> 00:25:04.346
disproportionately affects uh

00:25:04.405 --> 00:25:05.807
independent validators because

00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:07.059
you know,

00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:09.582
we are time bound and every

00:25:09.642 --> 00:25:11.663
additional hour we need,

00:25:11.963 --> 00:25:13.986
we have to find from our team,

00:25:14.026 --> 00:25:14.965
which is typically one to

00:25:15.006 --> 00:25:18.970
three people from a straw

00:25:18.990 --> 00:25:20.830
poll of independent

00:25:20.851 --> 00:25:21.551
operators that we know.

00:25:21.571 --> 00:25:22.432
It's one to three.

00:25:23.633 --> 00:25:24.193
There will be a more

00:25:24.233 --> 00:25:25.575
rigorous one coming soon

00:25:25.734 --> 00:25:26.494
when I eventually get

00:25:26.535 --> 00:25:27.855
ethics sign off for a

00:25:27.936 --> 00:25:28.856
questionnaire on this very

00:25:28.916 --> 00:25:29.778
subject where I want to

00:25:29.817 --> 00:25:31.338
find out what the average

00:25:31.378 --> 00:25:33.060
size of small independent operators is.

00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:35.702
But yeah, theory, one to three.

00:25:36.563 --> 00:25:37.502
And every additional hour

00:25:37.563 --> 00:25:38.503
has to be paid for, you know,

00:25:38.584 --> 00:25:39.864
so you end up back in the

00:25:39.884 --> 00:25:41.463
situation where you're

00:25:41.483 --> 00:25:42.545
taking a startup style

00:25:42.565 --> 00:25:43.265
business and then you're

00:25:43.285 --> 00:25:44.464
making it back into a

00:25:44.525 --> 00:25:46.726
consultancy business in

00:25:46.786 --> 00:25:47.625
order to be profitable.

00:25:47.705 --> 00:25:48.747
And that seems weird to me

00:25:48.807 --> 00:25:51.406
because consultancy is wildly profitable,

00:25:51.467 --> 00:25:51.666
right?

00:25:52.587 --> 00:25:53.008
If you...

00:25:54.167 --> 00:25:56.148
But validation is a good business model.

00:25:56.189 --> 00:25:56.729
It's cutting edge.

00:25:56.749 --> 00:25:57.910
But if you go back to like,

00:25:58.650 --> 00:25:59.990
the problem with validation

00:26:00.030 --> 00:26:01.030
is it's kind of like if you

00:26:01.171 --> 00:26:03.092
go pick up like a really weird language,

00:26:03.271 --> 00:26:04.292
like a programming language

00:26:04.333 --> 00:26:05.752
to do like work at a bank,

00:26:06.153 --> 00:26:07.913
and then you come out of it and you go,

00:26:07.973 --> 00:26:08.314
oh my God,

00:26:08.354 --> 00:26:09.595
nobody uses mainframes anymore.

00:26:09.634 --> 00:26:10.315
I don't need to know the

00:26:10.335 --> 00:26:11.516
COBOL programming language.

00:26:11.615 --> 00:26:12.936
I've put myself in a dead end.

00:26:14.037 --> 00:26:15.178
Validation's a bit like that.

00:26:15.458 --> 00:26:17.298
You have a very specific skill set,

00:26:18.439 --> 00:26:19.519
but almost nobody will pay

00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:20.619
for it other than in a

00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:22.181
really specific context.

00:26:23.690 --> 00:26:24.730
It's just not useful.

00:26:24.869 --> 00:26:26.270
It's just not a useful skill set.

00:26:26.771 --> 00:26:27.792
So you go, well, okay,

00:26:27.893 --> 00:26:29.413
is it just more profitable to, yeah,

00:26:31.635 --> 00:26:32.415
because there's no,

00:26:32.536 --> 00:26:33.297
I don't know that you can

00:26:33.336 --> 00:26:35.759
do consultancy as a validator strictly.

00:26:36.159 --> 00:26:37.940
So the two aren't as comparable,

00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:39.862
but if most validator node

00:26:39.902 --> 00:26:41.282
operators have some other

00:26:41.522 --> 00:26:42.604
technical background, right?

00:26:43.712 --> 00:26:44.772
And after a point you do

00:26:44.813 --> 00:26:46.094
look at it and you go, you know,

00:26:46.773 --> 00:26:47.733
that technical consultant

00:26:47.753 --> 00:26:48.534
is pretty profitable.

00:26:48.634 --> 00:26:51.575
So it is, but, but I mean,

00:26:51.595 --> 00:26:52.555
kind of a retrograde step

00:26:52.575 --> 00:26:53.695
to go back in that direction.

00:26:53.736 --> 00:26:55.135
But in this really niche industry,

00:26:55.455 --> 00:26:56.096
I feel like,

00:26:56.256 --> 00:26:57.217
like you may as well just go

00:26:58.196 --> 00:26:58.856
do infrastructure

00:26:58.876 --> 00:27:00.017
consultancy for a big bank

00:27:00.096 --> 00:27:01.577
and make like $3,000 a day

00:27:01.637 --> 00:27:02.637
or whatever the number is.

00:27:02.678 --> 00:27:04.778
And just, you know,

00:27:05.078 --> 00:27:06.499
just put it on a normal, you know,

00:27:06.538 --> 00:27:07.558
pay a cheap accountant and

00:27:07.618 --> 00:27:08.759
not worry about any of the

00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:09.619
crypto shenanigans.

00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:09.819
Right.

00:27:10.637 --> 00:27:14.339
Maybe, but I came from that world,

00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.441
so that world has its own

00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:17.621
fucking major issues.

00:27:17.641 --> 00:27:18.101
I mean,

00:27:18.122 --> 00:27:19.642
one of the reasons that I really

00:27:19.682 --> 00:27:20.823
got involved in this was

00:27:21.843 --> 00:27:23.003
the goal of being able to

00:27:23.124 --> 00:27:24.044
earn money while you sleep,

00:27:24.183 --> 00:27:25.845
which in services you cannot.

00:27:26.826 --> 00:27:27.026
Like,

00:27:27.445 --> 00:27:30.227
you are constantly catching fish to eat.

00:27:30.646 --> 00:27:31.167
Constantly.

00:27:31.587 --> 00:27:32.748
And if you're not in the fucking boat,

00:27:33.449 --> 00:27:33.949
you're not eating.

00:27:34.710 --> 00:27:35.530
And so that usually means

00:27:35.550 --> 00:27:37.612
travel or it means those types of things.

00:27:37.672 --> 00:27:38.752
Do you think that's the case

00:27:38.772 --> 00:27:39.473
with validation?

00:27:39.834 --> 00:27:41.675
I don't think so at all.

00:27:41.715 --> 00:27:42.155
No.

00:27:42.435 --> 00:27:43.897
I feel like if you're on the

00:27:43.938 --> 00:27:46.038
treadmill and you're like, I mean,

00:27:46.058 --> 00:27:46.900
I think maybe it's a bit

00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:48.260
different for us because we

00:27:48.340 --> 00:27:49.701
focus very heavily on a few

00:27:49.741 --> 00:27:51.083
chains and didn't maybe

00:27:51.784 --> 00:27:52.944
cast as wide a net as we

00:27:52.964 --> 00:27:53.605
should have done.

00:27:53.865 --> 00:27:54.967
And then a baby came along

00:27:55.007 --> 00:27:56.488
and now I'm looking at it and going, poof,

00:27:57.048 --> 00:27:58.348
we've been off the treadmill for a while.

00:27:58.409 --> 00:28:02.492
But as soon as you start to, like it is,

00:28:03.086 --> 00:28:05.709
daunting to find new

00:28:05.769 --> 00:28:06.970
business and pick winners.

00:28:07.611 --> 00:28:08.230
Oh, yeah, of course.

00:28:08.270 --> 00:28:09.011
I'm not saying that.

00:28:09.071 --> 00:28:10.473
I'm not saying it's easy.

00:28:10.874 --> 00:28:12.355
I'm just saying that the

00:28:12.576 --> 00:28:13.836
ability that even if that

00:28:13.896 --> 00:28:14.798
number's really low or

00:28:14.837 --> 00:28:16.559
sometimes that number's negative,

00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:17.421
at least there's a number

00:28:17.441 --> 00:28:17.980
that's changing.

00:28:18.741 --> 00:28:19.982
You still have to hustle.

00:28:20.003 --> 00:28:20.984
I'm not saying you don't have to hustle.

00:28:21.085 --> 00:28:21.884
You still have to get lucky.

00:28:22.046 --> 00:28:22.885
All those things are still...

00:28:24.204 --> 00:28:25.766
that's consistent in any business that you,

00:28:25.925 --> 00:28:26.586
that you run.

00:28:26.625 --> 00:28:26.846
Right.

00:28:26.987 --> 00:28:27.146
It's.

00:28:27.747 --> 00:28:27.906
Sure.

00:28:27.926 --> 00:28:29.248
But it's very different from like,

00:28:29.387 --> 00:28:29.627
if you're,

00:28:29.647 --> 00:28:30.749
if you're trying to pitch a new client,

00:28:30.788 --> 00:28:30.989
right.

00:28:31.909 --> 00:28:33.710
Try consulting, whatever you say, like, Oh,

00:28:33.911 --> 00:28:34.611
you've got a problem.

00:28:34.631 --> 00:28:35.310
You need it solving.

00:28:35.330 --> 00:28:36.051
What's the problem.

00:28:36.092 --> 00:28:37.132
And they say, Oh, it's this,

00:28:37.231 --> 00:28:38.732
or we can't even fully describe it.

00:28:38.752 --> 00:28:39.794
And you go, great.

00:28:39.854 --> 00:28:40.914
I can help you describe that

00:28:40.954 --> 00:28:41.855
problem or great.

00:28:41.914 --> 00:28:42.675
I know how to solve.

00:28:42.776 --> 00:28:43.935
If they can describe the problem, you say,

00:28:43.955 --> 00:28:44.115
great.

00:28:44.135 --> 00:28:45.156
And I can solve that problem.

00:28:45.596 --> 00:28:46.897
If they don't have to describe the problem,

00:28:46.917 --> 00:28:47.657
you say, great.

00:28:47.678 --> 00:28:49.179
I can help you describe that problem.

00:28:49.239 --> 00:28:50.359
And then we can solve it together.

00:28:50.380 --> 00:28:50.539
Yeah.

00:28:52.336 --> 00:28:53.596
what's your time scale on this?

00:28:53.717 --> 00:28:56.259
And you're already in, right?

00:28:56.398 --> 00:28:57.559
It's like breathing, isn't it?

00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.840
You just get into that.

00:29:00.020 --> 00:29:02.482
And then you know that that

00:29:02.522 --> 00:29:03.784
is going to... You just

00:29:03.804 --> 00:29:04.683
have to calculate your

00:29:04.743 --> 00:29:06.204
costs of travel and blah, blah,

00:29:06.224 --> 00:29:07.145
blah and acquisition.

00:29:07.165 --> 00:29:09.106
And then you know that's

00:29:09.126 --> 00:29:09.887
going to return money.

00:29:10.147 --> 00:29:11.228
Honestly,

00:29:11.769 --> 00:29:13.089
this business is very similar to that.

00:29:13.569 --> 00:29:15.151
So when we get involved in things early,

00:29:15.171 --> 00:29:17.172
those same questions come up.

00:29:17.271 --> 00:29:18.532
We do quote-unquote free

00:29:18.553 --> 00:29:19.733
consulting work around...

00:29:20.874 --> 00:29:22.255
around chain setups and

00:29:22.275 --> 00:29:24.355
around delegation programs

00:29:24.976 --> 00:29:26.175
and around some basic

00:29:26.215 --> 00:29:29.097
tokenomics and around how

00:29:29.117 --> 00:29:31.979
to do incentivized test nets or not.

00:29:32.199 --> 00:29:33.579
All those same conversations,

00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:35.099
any team that we talk to

00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:35.861
has those same questions.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.240
Hey, what do you guys think about this?

00:29:37.280 --> 00:29:38.402
What do people like?

00:29:39.601 --> 00:29:40.602
um and I go what are your

00:29:40.622 --> 00:29:41.623
time frames and where are

00:29:41.643 --> 00:29:43.105
you guys and like what's so

00:29:43.125 --> 00:29:43.884
there's some there's some

00:29:43.944 --> 00:29:44.925
similarities there in terms

00:29:44.965 --> 00:29:46.728
of that and I think that

00:29:46.887 --> 00:29:47.888
comes I mean that's good

00:29:48.068 --> 00:29:48.789
that's good for me because

00:29:48.809 --> 00:29:50.230
like part of that's part of

00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:51.472
the expertise of like hey

00:29:51.992 --> 00:29:53.213
why work with us is because

00:29:53.374 --> 00:29:54.075
because we have been

00:29:54.095 --> 00:29:54.695
through a bunch of those

00:29:54.776 --> 00:29:55.395
right there's no different

00:29:55.415 --> 00:29:56.376
any other services

00:29:56.416 --> 00:29:57.117
organization right it's

00:29:57.198 --> 00:29:58.038
based on experience and

00:29:58.078 --> 00:29:59.559
like seeing it the reason

00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:01.102
you use consultants is not

00:30:01.122 --> 00:30:01.903
necessarily the expertise

00:30:01.942 --> 00:30:02.643
is that they've seen so

00:30:02.663 --> 00:30:03.884
many up situations

00:30:04.505 --> 00:30:06.145
that whatever your fucked up situation is,

00:30:06.767 --> 00:30:08.327
somebody goes, oh yeah,

00:30:08.448 --> 00:30:09.888
we were down the street somewhere else.

00:30:09.929 --> 00:30:10.990
We kind of- We've seen a few

00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:13.011
of those in Cosmos.

00:30:13.051 --> 00:30:13.432
Yeah,

00:30:13.471 --> 00:30:15.794
which if you work in one organization,

00:30:15.814 --> 00:30:16.674
you don't have that experience.

00:30:16.714 --> 00:30:18.717
Not everybody has a Prop 16

00:30:18.717 --> 00:30:20.117
or nobody that we've done

00:30:20.117 --> 00:30:23.461
17 test nets in one day in early Juno days,

00:30:23.721 --> 00:30:25.583
or have, um,

00:30:25.903 --> 00:30:27.625
or dealt with like a fucking

00:30:27.806 --> 00:30:29.847
crazy set of both amazing

00:30:29.867 --> 00:30:31.308
and totally fucking awful

00:30:31.348 --> 00:30:33.070
delegation programs or why

00:30:33.090 --> 00:30:33.971
incentivized test nets for

00:30:34.011 --> 00:30:34.792
validators don't work.

00:30:34.873 --> 00:30:36.414
Like all those situations,

00:30:36.454 --> 00:30:37.296
those teams want to hear about.

00:30:37.336 --> 00:30:37.476
Right.

00:30:37.655 --> 00:30:39.498
So what's really interesting, right.

00:30:39.577 --> 00:30:41.160
It's just that, so that's, uh,

00:30:42.381 --> 00:30:44.001
Yeah, so you're right.

00:30:44.102 --> 00:30:46.541
I guess it's about audience, isn't it?

00:30:46.862 --> 00:30:48.022
So my experience has been

00:30:48.222 --> 00:30:49.063
pretty much what you've

00:30:49.083 --> 00:30:49.863
just described there,

00:30:50.284 --> 00:30:52.503
but especially in the last nine months,

00:30:52.544 --> 00:30:53.365
ten months, a year,

00:30:53.384 --> 00:30:55.525
I've been mainly talking to

00:30:55.565 --> 00:30:57.445
people who are in trad

00:30:58.346 --> 00:31:00.247
I suppose in some way, shape or form,

00:31:00.307 --> 00:31:01.626
or they're on the boundary

00:31:01.886 --> 00:31:03.288
between bringing TradFi

00:31:03.347 --> 00:31:04.888
regulated TradFi into some

00:31:04.929 --> 00:31:06.048
regulated crypto, right.

00:31:07.369 --> 00:31:08.170
Or academics.

00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:08.390
Right.

00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:10.371
And so the academics,

00:31:10.471 --> 00:31:11.351
like when you talk about

00:31:11.371 --> 00:31:11.931
those sorts of things,

00:31:11.951 --> 00:31:12.912
like what are the things we've got,

00:31:12.932 --> 00:31:14.271
we've been through, you know, what works,

00:31:14.311 --> 00:31:14.952
what doesn't work?

00:31:15.313 --> 00:31:17.313
The academics just like, of course,

00:31:17.333 --> 00:31:18.173
those things that didn't work,

00:31:18.213 --> 00:31:18.693
didn't work.

00:31:19.153 --> 00:31:20.815
That's, that's easily described.

00:31:20.875 --> 00:31:22.875
It was written about in 1997 or something.

00:31:23.236 --> 00:31:23.655
And you're like,

00:31:24.602 --> 00:31:26.241
And they're like, I'll email you.

00:31:26.281 --> 00:31:26.961
And they're like, yeah,

00:31:27.042 --> 00:31:28.303
I'll email you some citations,

00:31:28.343 --> 00:31:29.123
which they don't.

00:31:29.143 --> 00:31:29.962
And then you have to remember.

00:31:30.002 --> 00:31:31.742
And then you have to email

00:31:31.762 --> 00:31:32.463
them back and be like, hey,

00:31:32.483 --> 00:31:33.443
what was that thing you mentioned?

00:31:33.463 --> 00:31:34.163
And then eventually you read

00:31:34.183 --> 00:31:35.144
a paper and you're like, goddammit,

00:31:35.183 --> 00:31:35.963
they were 100% right.

00:31:35.983 --> 00:31:36.503
Of course they were.

00:31:36.564 --> 00:31:37.785
It's obvious somebody would

00:31:37.825 --> 00:31:38.805
have thought about it ahead of time.

00:31:38.944 --> 00:31:39.184
Anyway.

00:31:40.065 --> 00:31:42.846
And the other people have

00:31:42.986 --> 00:31:43.826
one or two reactions.

00:31:43.846 --> 00:31:44.685
They go, oh, wow.

00:31:44.705 --> 00:31:44.885
Really?

00:31:44.905 --> 00:31:45.506
It's that bad?

00:31:45.526 --> 00:31:45.605
Yeah.

00:31:46.026 --> 00:31:46.185
Huh.

00:31:51.739 --> 00:31:54.560
or they literally aren't

00:31:55.060 --> 00:31:56.101
either aren't technical or

00:31:56.141 --> 00:31:56.781
don't know enough about the

00:31:56.821 --> 00:32:00.282
area to even like um grasp

00:32:00.463 --> 00:32:01.423
the moral of the story that

00:32:01.443 --> 00:32:02.163
you're trying to kind of

00:32:02.505 --> 00:32:04.085
impart which possibly might

00:32:04.125 --> 00:32:04.705
be a problem with my

00:32:04.726 --> 00:32:05.986
storytelling being somewhat

00:32:06.006 --> 00:32:08.027
more rambling than maybe

00:32:08.067 --> 00:32:11.388
the norm um but but but

00:32:11.449 --> 00:32:13.029
it's that so I think maybe

00:32:13.069 --> 00:32:14.971
my my kind of uh what's the word

00:32:16.874 --> 00:32:18.516
my frustration with not

00:32:18.576 --> 00:32:19.696
having worked out how to

00:32:19.797 --> 00:32:20.738
sell all the stuff that

00:32:20.758 --> 00:32:22.500
we've learned in the last

00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:24.221
three years especially in

00:32:24.261 --> 00:32:25.403
that environment is I think

00:32:25.462 --> 00:32:27.664
that possibly it's very

00:32:27.744 --> 00:32:28.746
hard to articulate the

00:32:28.905 --> 00:32:31.308
value of it if you don't

00:32:31.348 --> 00:32:32.609
know what you're looking at

00:32:32.710 --> 00:32:34.251
yeah for sure whereas I

00:32:34.291 --> 00:32:35.011
guess you know like you say

00:32:35.031 --> 00:32:35.712
if you talk to an early

00:32:35.732 --> 00:32:36.733
stage foundation team I

00:32:36.773 --> 00:32:38.395
mean look at us on like

00:32:38.556 --> 00:32:39.616
aptos at the end of the day

00:32:39.656 --> 00:32:40.278
like that was a

00:32:41.060 --> 00:32:42.842
a project where they were already rolling,

00:32:42.882 --> 00:32:44.022
they were already doing a lot of stuff,

00:32:44.384 --> 00:32:46.144
they did ask validators at

00:32:46.244 --> 00:32:47.006
early stages a few

00:32:47.026 --> 00:32:48.406
questions about how things

00:32:48.426 --> 00:32:51.209
should be run and other blah, blah, blah.

00:32:51.269 --> 00:32:52.148
Were they ultimately

00:32:52.189 --> 00:32:53.109
influenced by much of

00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:54.830
anything that we fed back on?

00:32:55.412 --> 00:32:55.692
Don't know.

00:32:57.534 --> 00:32:58.814
But they must have felt it

00:32:58.855 --> 00:33:01.256
was valuable enough to

00:33:01.316 --> 00:33:03.218
select the set that they did, right?

00:33:05.058 --> 00:33:05.960
Even though actually a lot

00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:06.901
of those validators,

00:33:06.921 --> 00:33:07.580
or at least a lot of the

00:33:07.601 --> 00:33:09.142
independent validators were from Cosmos,

00:33:09.221 --> 00:33:09.682
not from

00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:11.540
you know,

00:33:11.601 --> 00:33:14.325
more other big VC backed type ventures.

00:33:15.567 --> 00:33:16.567
Although the big ones were there,

00:33:16.648 --> 00:33:17.028
obviously.

00:33:18.651 --> 00:33:18.991
Yeah.

00:33:19.332 --> 00:33:20.693
It's yeah.

00:33:20.733 --> 00:33:22.195
Anyway, so back to the validator business,

00:33:22.236 --> 00:33:24.819
however, and going back to this, I like,

00:33:26.355 --> 00:33:27.996
I can see basically what

00:33:28.016 --> 00:33:28.976
we've described is we've

00:33:29.016 --> 00:33:30.317
described a way to build a

00:33:30.356 --> 00:33:31.176
services engagement,

00:33:31.557 --> 00:33:32.396
like a services type

00:33:32.416 --> 00:33:34.417
consultancy that does have

00:33:35.159 --> 00:33:36.419
at least perception of value.

00:33:36.659 --> 00:33:37.660
Like security is a good one.

00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:38.559
Analytics is a good one.

00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:39.519
Like those are good ones

00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:40.941
that teams buy into because

00:33:41.060 --> 00:33:41.760
they would not,

00:33:41.941 --> 00:33:42.942
they may not have that

00:33:43.561 --> 00:33:45.122
expertise on site or need

00:33:45.142 --> 00:33:45.923
an outside opinion

00:33:45.962 --> 00:33:47.222
associated to one or two of those.

00:33:47.383 --> 00:33:47.563
Right.

00:33:48.784 --> 00:33:50.144
And then when you combine

00:33:50.163 --> 00:33:52.365
that with running nodes on the side,

00:33:53.165 --> 00:33:53.726
whether those are,

00:33:54.699 --> 00:33:55.338
or when it running

00:33:55.378 --> 00:33:56.240
validators on the side where that's,

00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:59.261
you know, done well or done poorly,

00:33:59.741 --> 00:34:00.501
that's a good combination.

00:34:01.482 --> 00:34:02.824
Um, and it, and it does,

00:34:02.943 --> 00:34:04.845
I think it's weird how they

00:34:04.884 --> 00:34:05.925
must capture that in terms

00:34:05.986 --> 00:34:07.446
of revenue and those types of things.

00:34:07.527 --> 00:34:08.306
But I mean, I,

00:34:08.407 --> 00:34:09.907
I kind of see why it's going that way.

00:34:10.168 --> 00:34:13.150
And I, and I see how that is a, um,

00:34:14.668 --> 00:34:16.050
is a good thing for maybe

00:34:16.150 --> 00:34:17.050
both organizations.

00:34:17.090 --> 00:34:17.811
I think it's better for,

00:34:17.911 --> 00:34:18.833
for foundations than it is

00:34:18.893 --> 00:34:19.594
maybe for the vendors.

00:34:20.034 --> 00:34:20.755
I think I would rather just

00:34:20.775 --> 00:34:22.056
have a straight ACH in

00:34:22.077 --> 00:34:23.057
those situations when,

00:34:23.257 --> 00:34:24.539
when there's consulting

00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:25.420
work to be done or services

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:25.880
work to be done.

00:34:27.684 --> 00:34:29.224
But it's definitely a theme.

00:34:29.746 --> 00:34:30.646
So there's more and more of it.

00:34:31.088 --> 00:34:31.788
So as Schultz said,

00:34:31.827 --> 00:34:33.349
is it time to build a shitty Explorer?

00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:33.771
Might be.

00:34:34.730 --> 00:34:37.831
maybe it is um for the for

00:34:37.891 --> 00:34:39.913
long-term viewers of the of

00:34:39.972 --> 00:34:40.992
the podcast I've looked

00:34:41.012 --> 00:34:44.614
back through our our um our

00:34:44.775 --> 00:34:46.315
overlays in the in the in

00:34:46.335 --> 00:34:48.356
the software we use and uh

00:34:48.376 --> 00:34:49.217
we when we talked about

00:34:49.237 --> 00:34:50.097
this originally we actually

00:34:50.117 --> 00:34:50.818
talked about in terms of

00:34:50.838 --> 00:34:51.659
the product product

00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.539
maturity matrix and uh

00:34:54.460 --> 00:34:56.181
we, we, we literally have one here, right?

00:34:56.722 --> 00:35:00.344
So, um, so we are here, uh, in, uh,

00:35:00.684 --> 00:35:01.365
over on the right,

00:35:01.425 --> 00:35:02.847
sorry to those listening later.

00:35:02.867 --> 00:35:05.829
Um, but we are, this is a crash course in,

00:35:06.050 --> 00:35:08.391
in, in product maturity consulting,

00:35:08.431 --> 00:35:08.851
I suppose.

00:35:09.152 --> 00:35:09.253
Uh,

00:35:09.552 --> 00:35:11.014
we're just giving away stuff for free

00:35:11.074 --> 00:35:12.795
here today, you said, but,

00:35:12.835 --> 00:35:15.038
but so validation, right.

00:35:15.077 --> 00:35:17.960
Has, has moved on the evolution, um, axes,

00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:18.541
which is the,

00:35:19.681 --> 00:35:22.722
X axis, I think,

00:35:22.782 --> 00:35:25.061
to being a mature commodity product,

00:35:25.362 --> 00:35:27.143
which has no differentiation.

00:35:27.182 --> 00:35:28.742
So validators are having to

00:35:30.143 --> 00:35:32.423
come up with products to sell.

00:35:32.704 --> 00:35:33.623
So that would be like a

00:35:33.824 --> 00:35:34.724
dashboard or something,

00:35:36.324 --> 00:35:37.405
or something custom,

00:35:37.445 --> 00:35:38.644
which is like the consulting offer,

00:35:38.664 --> 00:35:39.304
which is, again,

00:35:39.364 --> 00:35:41.085
moving all the way further

00:35:41.144 --> 00:35:43.346
to the left to differentiate their offer.

00:35:44.206 --> 00:35:45.567
If you were to go to a

00:35:45.626 --> 00:35:48.028
foundation and say to them, look,

00:35:48.108 --> 00:35:50.271
we have a smart contract idea.

00:35:50.411 --> 00:35:51.311
We have the ability to

00:35:51.351 --> 00:35:52.972
implement it and deploy it on your chain.

00:35:54.213 --> 00:35:55.695
But it's like we're building

00:35:55.715 --> 00:35:56.335
it for the first time.

00:35:56.594 --> 00:35:58.976
That would be a genesis thing,

00:35:58.996 --> 00:35:59.958
which would be all the way

00:36:00.018 --> 00:36:00.978
over here on the left.

00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:04.701
But that would be incredibly difficult.

00:36:06.675 --> 00:36:07.476
I mean that that's putting

00:36:07.536 --> 00:36:08.518
all your eggs in one basket

00:36:08.577 --> 00:36:09.259
as a validator.

00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.302
Although again, I mean, ironically,

00:36:11.342 --> 00:36:12.842
I suppose, you know, for, for us, for,

00:36:12.902 --> 00:36:14.065
for needle cast as a business,

00:36:14.105 --> 00:36:15.847
like that's kind of what we did on Juno.

00:36:15.947 --> 00:36:17.047
Cause we did free work to

00:36:17.088 --> 00:36:18.210
help the train get launched.

00:36:18.570 --> 00:36:18.730
Yeah.

00:36:18.889 --> 00:36:19.490
And then we'd launched a

00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:20.552
couple of protocols in Juno

00:36:20.713 --> 00:36:21.554
and primarily we

00:36:22.094 --> 00:36:22.893
We made money.

00:36:23.335 --> 00:36:24.994
We didn't make money on the name service,

00:36:25.235 --> 00:36:27.155
albeit, you know, restake some of them.

00:36:28.177 --> 00:36:31.237
And then shot ourselves in

00:36:31.257 --> 00:36:32.617
the head a little bit with that one.

00:36:33.518 --> 00:36:34.958
Yeah, exactly.

00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:36.059
But yeah, you know,

00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:37.780
also got paid back for that

00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:39.021
in delegations too.

00:36:39.081 --> 00:36:40.862
So like I've been there or

00:36:40.922 --> 00:36:42.362
we've been there as a business as well.

00:36:43.242 --> 00:36:44.242
And it's not,

00:36:46.327 --> 00:36:47.467
It's not that sustainable.

00:36:47.588 --> 00:36:49.329
I mean, I guess like all these things,

00:36:49.369 --> 00:36:50.349
it's only as sustainable as

00:36:50.389 --> 00:36:51.590
the token price actually, isn't it?

00:36:51.670 --> 00:36:52.911
So it would still be pretty

00:36:52.951 --> 00:36:57.592
sustainable if Juno was $40.

00:36:57.592 --> 00:36:59.052
It's funny because it kind

00:36:59.092 --> 00:36:59.773
of bumps into the other

00:36:59.813 --> 00:37:01.414
conversation that a ton of

00:37:01.454 --> 00:37:03.134
us were having recently in the last,

00:37:03.293 --> 00:37:03.735
I don't know,

00:37:03.795 --> 00:37:04.655
it seems like it's come up

00:37:04.695 --> 00:37:06.916
in the last five or six months, which is,

00:37:07.476 --> 00:37:08.396
does a validator business

00:37:08.476 --> 00:37:09.617
actually have any sort of value?

00:37:10.543 --> 00:37:13.324
Like, is it a sellable object?

00:37:13.726 --> 00:37:14.166
I was going to say,

00:37:14.365 --> 00:37:15.606
didn't that come up because

00:37:15.666 --> 00:37:17.789
somebody actually had sold

00:37:17.949 --> 00:37:19.469
or was looking to sell?

00:37:19.731 --> 00:37:19.990
Well,

00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:21.751
I know there's one that's out there

00:37:21.771 --> 00:37:23.032
that has a term, not a term sheet,

00:37:23.052 --> 00:37:23.434
but like a,

00:37:23.954 --> 00:37:24.954
I don't even know if it's a SIM deck.

00:37:25.014 --> 00:37:25.594
It might be just some

00:37:25.614 --> 00:37:26.596
informational information

00:37:26.615 --> 00:37:28.378
and has a broker that's

00:37:28.498 --> 00:37:29.358
trying to get rid of it.

00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:33.581
So I do know that there is.

00:37:33.641 --> 00:37:34.802
What's the ballpark on how

00:37:34.822 --> 00:37:35.844
many chains they validate?

00:37:36.992 --> 00:37:37.293
I don't know.

00:37:37.313 --> 00:37:38.092
I can probably look, though,

00:37:38.273 --> 00:37:39.673
while we're on the floor.

00:37:39.873 --> 00:37:41.614
Just pure Cosmos or a bunch of things?

00:37:42.554 --> 00:37:44.014
I think pure Cosmos,

00:37:44.315 --> 00:37:47.275
although I think that might have changed.

00:37:47.835 --> 00:37:49.215
They definitely started Cosmos,

00:37:49.315 --> 00:37:51.295
but I think that that has

00:37:51.416 --> 00:37:52.797
changed maybe over time.

00:37:54.617 --> 00:37:55.876
Let me just take a look and

00:37:55.896 --> 00:37:57.097
see if I can see if there's

00:37:57.137 --> 00:37:57.978
a page related to it.

00:37:57.998 --> 00:38:00.858
What is a Cosmos Validator business worth?

00:38:00.918 --> 00:38:02.099
It's like the tree falling

00:38:02.179 --> 00:38:03.239
out of the forest, isn't it?

00:38:03.972 --> 00:38:04.914
If there's a tree falling

00:38:04.934 --> 00:38:06.215
down in the forest and the

00:38:06.414 --> 00:38:07.856
token price is one cent,

00:38:08.076 --> 00:38:08.996
does anybody give a shit?

00:38:09.976 --> 00:38:10.577
This one,

00:38:13.298 --> 00:38:16.221
they are on actually a decent

00:38:16.242 --> 00:38:17.242
amount of freaking chains.

00:38:17.461 --> 00:38:20.563
Maybe 20 Cosmos chains.

00:38:22.005 --> 00:38:23.967
And important ones, Injective Celestia,

00:38:24.246 --> 00:38:26.688
they're on the Hub, Dimension, Osmosis,

00:38:27.548 --> 00:38:29.811
DYDX, Akash,

00:38:31.909 --> 00:38:35.411
quasar stargaze evmos and

00:38:35.831 --> 00:38:39.052
omni flicks and down um so

00:38:39.273 --> 00:38:40.753
and then I and I do have it

00:38:41.034 --> 00:38:42.034
I did hear they have they

00:38:42.074 --> 00:38:43.876
have 30 this says they're

00:38:43.876 --> 00:38:45.456
30 something million staked

00:38:46.378 --> 00:38:48.199
um which in cosmos is a

00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:48.778
pretty decent number

00:38:48.818 --> 00:38:51.280
actually so so 30 million

00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:52.420
stakes that's um

00:38:53.855 --> 00:38:54.375
30 networks are on.

00:38:54.655 --> 00:38:54.795
Yeah.

00:38:55.456 --> 00:38:57.315
So anyway, but so, so I know that they're,

00:38:57.416 --> 00:38:58.137
I know what they're

00:38:58.157 --> 00:38:59.456
shopping and things like that, but,

00:38:59.657 --> 00:39:01.358
but the interesting piece, like,

00:39:01.858 --> 00:39:03.639
I just don't know, like if you,

00:39:04.298 --> 00:39:05.099
if they have contracts and

00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:05.858
other types of things that

00:39:05.878 --> 00:39:06.980
are like repeatable and

00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:08.199
like you have agreements with,

00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:09.021
with organizations,

00:39:09.041 --> 00:39:09.661
maybe you're providing some

00:39:09.681 --> 00:39:10.940
services for that.

00:39:10.981 --> 00:39:12.581
I can see, you know, like it's something,

00:39:12.601 --> 00:39:12.862
Hey, we,

00:39:13.001 --> 00:39:15.483
we run this pretty large XYZ for

00:39:15.523 --> 00:39:17.384
somebody and it's a hundred

00:39:17.403 --> 00:39:18.003
thousand dollar a year

00:39:18.043 --> 00:39:18.864
revenue type of thing and

00:39:18.884 --> 00:39:19.724
they're not going anywhere.

00:39:19.784 --> 00:39:21.045
So therefore we think it's worth, uh,

00:39:21.525 --> 00:39:22.806
you know some sort of here's

00:39:22.826 --> 00:39:23.606
what the costs are we think

00:39:23.626 --> 00:39:24.585
it's a multiplier on on

00:39:24.606 --> 00:39:26.527
that income um that makes

00:39:26.547 --> 00:39:27.507
sense to me but like the

00:39:27.648 --> 00:39:29.447
actual val I just don't

00:39:29.487 --> 00:39:31.188
know like it like if like

00:39:31.228 --> 00:39:32.849
if you sold me it would be

00:39:32.889 --> 00:39:34.449
worth zero because the

00:39:34.469 --> 00:39:35.371
delegation can just

00:39:35.391 --> 00:39:36.731
disappear right if you sold

00:39:36.751 --> 00:39:38.612
it to me 14 days on staking

00:39:39.092 --> 00:39:39.931
well if you sold it to me

00:39:40.233 --> 00:39:41.992
right either number one I

00:39:42.012 --> 00:39:43.673
don't do anything you hand

00:39:43.713 --> 00:39:44.514
over the keys and then I'm

00:39:44.893 --> 00:39:45.695
then I'm running a civil

00:39:46.532 --> 00:39:46.672
right?

00:39:46.793 --> 00:39:48.735
Because then I'm doing governance on both.

00:39:49.376 --> 00:39:50.778
So I just keep it needle cast.

00:39:51.018 --> 00:39:51.519
I'm running it.

00:39:51.579 --> 00:39:52.121
I have all the keys.

00:39:52.181 --> 00:39:53.402
I can do anything I want with that bell,

00:39:53.583 --> 00:39:53.722
right?

00:39:53.742 --> 00:39:54.364
It's mine.

00:39:54.384 --> 00:39:55.364
It's my wallet, everything else.

00:39:55.405 --> 00:39:56.266
How do your listeners know

00:39:56.286 --> 00:39:57.327
this has not already occurred?

00:39:58.329 --> 00:39:58.750
Because I would never,

00:39:58.769 --> 00:39:59.471
I would never buy it.

00:39:59.990 --> 00:40:01.492
So that's, that's all right.

00:40:01.552 --> 00:40:02.454
Yeah.

00:40:02.675 --> 00:40:02.795
So,

00:40:03.615 --> 00:40:05.677
so even yeah this validates

00:40:05.777 --> 00:40:06.898
it so then then I'm running

00:40:06.918 --> 00:40:09.019
a sybil right and then so

00:40:09.099 --> 00:40:09.940
eventually that comes out

00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:11.342
like it's it's obvious

00:40:11.382 --> 00:40:12.322
right somehow that that

00:40:12.362 --> 00:40:13.364
happens I would think that

00:40:13.483 --> 00:40:14.965
and then then you risk

00:40:15.204 --> 00:40:17.047
losing both the then it

00:40:17.086 --> 00:40:17.806
turns into a fucking

00:40:18.027 --> 00:40:18.907
twitter storm and you're

00:40:18.947 --> 00:40:20.009
losing both the delegation

00:40:20.068 --> 00:40:21.369
on sure but that one as

00:40:21.429 --> 00:40:22.391
well as your other one

00:40:22.731 --> 00:40:23.512
let's assume for a second

00:40:23.532 --> 00:40:24.251
that your operational

00:40:24.271 --> 00:40:26.954
security is good enough uh

00:40:27.795 --> 00:40:28.856
that doesn't come out yeah

00:40:28.876 --> 00:40:29.797
then you're running two brands

00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:31.780
me running two brands, but,

00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.340
but it still has no value, right?

00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.300
Because the delegation,

00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:38.882
the delegation is only ever

00:40:38.882 --> 00:40:41.143
14 days away from, from not being there.

00:40:41.222 --> 00:40:42.262
Or, or in fact, you know,

00:40:42.802 --> 00:40:43.822
if they use the restake

00:40:43.862 --> 00:40:47.483
functionality less, um, or if it's, yeah,

00:40:47.583 --> 00:40:48.083
whatever, you know,

00:40:48.123 --> 00:40:49.804
there's a bunch of ways like, like to be,

00:40:49.844 --> 00:40:51.465
to decisiously bring that number down.

00:40:52.385 --> 00:40:54.565
Um, and then it's just,

00:40:54.686 --> 00:40:56.706
it's just a brand and some tin,

00:40:57.106 --> 00:40:57.967
which probably they don't

00:40:57.987 --> 00:40:59.027
even own their own tin, right?

00:40:59.226 --> 00:40:59.427
So,

00:41:01.550 --> 00:41:02.512
I just don't know that a

00:41:02.532 --> 00:41:04.393
validator business has any value.

00:41:04.414 --> 00:41:05.534
I just don't know.

00:41:05.795 --> 00:41:07.956
Yeah, it's a really interesting question.

00:41:08.016 --> 00:41:09.818
An institutional... So I

00:41:09.858 --> 00:41:11.559
have the theory that an institutional,

00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:13.201
like specifically an

00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:15.784
institutional validator service,

00:41:16.224 --> 00:41:17.905
the only white labels for

00:41:19.186 --> 00:41:20.367
TradFi businesses...

00:41:22.333 --> 00:41:23.833
that would have a

00:41:23.893 --> 00:41:24.994
hypothetical value if you

00:41:25.034 --> 00:41:25.976
sold it because it will

00:41:25.996 --> 00:41:27.217
have business agreements in place.

00:41:27.277 --> 00:41:27.436
Right.

00:41:27.856 --> 00:41:31.239
But, but I've talked to trad five.

00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:32.641
I know there are trad five

00:41:32.661 --> 00:41:33.442
businesses who operate in

00:41:33.461 --> 00:41:34.202
the space and they stake

00:41:34.222 --> 00:41:35.963
with figment or block demon or whoever,

00:41:36.083 --> 00:41:36.264
right.

00:41:36.884 --> 00:41:37.905
Get that that happens.

00:41:38.264 --> 00:41:38.505
Right.

00:41:39.346 --> 00:41:40.246
But I have talked to some

00:41:40.266 --> 00:41:40.927
people who are in this

00:41:40.947 --> 00:41:43.268
space who are moving into

00:41:43.289 --> 00:41:45.811
the space and there are

00:41:45.851 --> 00:41:47.072
like one or two

00:41:47.211 --> 00:41:48.853
organizations per country

00:41:49.373 --> 00:41:51.516
that they are the guys that do that.

00:41:51.795 --> 00:41:51.936
Yeah.

00:41:52.804 --> 00:41:54.445
And those spots are already filled.

00:41:54.485 --> 00:41:56.288
That is a hard market to break into.

00:41:56.327 --> 00:41:57.889
It is a hard and expensive

00:41:57.949 --> 00:41:58.929
market to break into.

00:41:59.489 --> 00:42:04.514
And it comes from having some backing,

00:42:04.574 --> 00:42:05.494
knowing the right people,

00:42:05.914 --> 00:42:07.476
and having a nice office in

00:42:07.496 --> 00:42:09.177
the right part of the right city.

00:42:13.422 --> 00:42:16.884
I couldn't be specific about the numbers,

00:42:16.903 --> 00:42:18.324
but I've talked to some

00:42:18.344 --> 00:42:19.045
people and found out some

00:42:19.065 --> 00:42:20.144
information about some of

00:42:20.204 --> 00:42:21.786
the e-validators, for example,

00:42:21.826 --> 00:42:23.186
in that kind of world.

00:42:24.047 --> 00:42:25.867
And they're really concentrated,

00:42:25.987 --> 00:42:27.907
like who's using who.

00:42:28.648 --> 00:42:30.068
And because of regulatory reasons,

00:42:30.108 --> 00:42:31.809
it seems to be that people

00:42:32.090 --> 00:42:33.329
prefer to use an operator

00:42:33.349 --> 00:42:33.990
in their own country,

00:42:34.371 --> 00:42:35.150
which totally makes sense.

00:42:37.552 --> 00:42:39.652
Good news for you, because America is big,

00:42:39.813 --> 00:42:40.072
I hear.

00:42:43.503 --> 00:42:44.385
But it's almost more of a

00:42:44.425 --> 00:42:45.666
cybersecurity business than

00:42:45.686 --> 00:42:47.748
it is a node operations business.

00:42:47.989 --> 00:42:50.751
It's three things, right?

00:42:50.831 --> 00:42:52.253
It's having somebody as good

00:42:53.034 --> 00:42:55.717
as Artifact's lot to just

00:42:55.896 --> 00:42:57.418
go out and do sales.

00:42:57.878 --> 00:43:00.260
And after that point,

00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.282
it's cybersecurity because

00:43:01.302 --> 00:43:02.182
it's all confidence.

00:43:02.884 --> 00:43:04.364
the node operations part is

00:43:04.445 --> 00:43:05.824
just the sausage like

00:43:05.864 --> 00:43:06.724
nobody cares about how the

00:43:06.744 --> 00:43:08.766
sausage is made sorry the

00:43:08.806 --> 00:43:09.985
node operations is whatever

00:43:10.025 --> 00:43:11.086
the is the sausage grinder

00:43:11.106 --> 00:43:12.887
sorry in the analogy which

00:43:12.927 --> 00:43:15.827
got derailed yeah um I

00:43:15.847 --> 00:43:16.527
think I think that's right

00:43:16.648 --> 00:43:18.068
I i guess it depends on the

00:43:18.088 --> 00:43:19.469
depends on the audience but

00:43:19.509 --> 00:43:20.969
I i think that's right yeah

00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:22.891
I don't know and back to

00:43:22.911 --> 00:43:24.150
the just back to the seal piece like

00:43:25.876 --> 00:43:29.222
If you do buy that brand and

00:43:29.965 --> 00:43:31.648
you want to be able to ingest it,

00:43:31.748 --> 00:43:32.891
how would you possibly ingest it?

00:43:33.351 --> 00:43:34.054
You're asking people to

00:43:34.094 --> 00:43:35.076
re-delegate to another VAL?

00:43:36.206 --> 00:43:37.065
You can't rebrand it.

00:43:37.186 --> 00:43:39.746
It's just a weird situation

00:43:39.806 --> 00:43:41.608
to try to eject from.

00:43:41.927 --> 00:43:43.768
You know what I mean?

00:43:44.329 --> 00:43:45.449
Or if it's somebody who does

00:43:45.489 --> 00:43:47.349
not have a brand in a specific ecosystem,

00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:48.110
I can kind of see that

00:43:48.150 --> 00:43:49.070
where you just like rebrand

00:43:49.090 --> 00:43:50.130
it and people kind of figure it out.

00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:50.952
Like, who the fuck is this?

00:43:51.391 --> 00:43:53.353
We'll just change the moniker.

00:43:54.552 --> 00:43:56.833
How come I'm delegated to King nodes now?

00:43:56.853 --> 00:43:57.693
Who the fuck is this?

00:43:59.054 --> 00:43:59.914
And I also think that I

00:43:59.934 --> 00:44:00.474
think foundation

00:44:00.494 --> 00:44:01.675
delegations instantly disappear.

00:44:02.516 --> 00:44:04.420
Because like those situations,

00:44:04.659 --> 00:44:05.701
unless it's like something

00:44:05.721 --> 00:44:06.382
very specific in the

00:44:06.442 --> 00:44:07.523
contractual type of thing

00:44:08.284 --> 00:44:10.467
where something's happening

00:44:10.867 --> 00:44:12.250
associated to some services

00:44:12.269 --> 00:44:12.891
that are being delivered.

00:44:12.911 --> 00:44:14.012
But for the most part,

00:44:14.112 --> 00:44:17.112
those are typically –

00:44:17.112 --> 00:44:17.452
Well, sure.

00:44:17.492 --> 00:44:18.014
That's what I mean.

00:44:18.034 --> 00:44:19.034
I think in that situation,

00:44:19.074 --> 00:44:20.777
I think it has to be an acqui hire,

00:44:20.836 --> 00:44:21.056
right?

00:44:21.177 --> 00:44:22.858
Because you basically need

00:44:22.898 --> 00:44:26.563
to pay a lump sum and then

00:44:26.722 --> 00:44:28.784
get the people who work

00:44:28.804 --> 00:44:30.206
there previously to

00:44:30.266 --> 00:44:31.967
continue to answer email on

00:44:32.007 --> 00:44:33.610
the old company email to

00:44:33.630 --> 00:44:35.070
the foundations and say,

00:44:36.666 --> 00:44:37.867
what's the bit in Star Wars

00:44:37.907 --> 00:44:39.168
when there's shooting and

00:44:39.208 --> 00:44:41.690
then they call the security

00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:42.831
desk and then Han Solo

00:44:42.931 --> 00:44:44.072
answers and he's like,

00:44:45.432 --> 00:44:46.934
it's all fine here.

00:44:47.293 --> 00:44:47.934
Everything's fine.

00:44:47.994 --> 00:44:48.815
Situation normal.

00:44:48.856 --> 00:44:49.896
And they're like, we heard shooting.

00:44:49.916 --> 00:44:52.077
He's like, all fine.

00:44:52.338 --> 00:44:54.500
Situation totally normal.

00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.762
That would be like if a business got sold,

00:44:58.282 --> 00:45:00.643
the foundation tries to get in touch.

00:45:00.664 --> 00:45:02.626
You're just like, all fine.

00:45:02.945 --> 00:45:03.646
Situation normal.

00:45:04.206 --> 00:45:05.288
Yeah, he's just in the bathroom.

00:45:05.608 --> 00:45:06.728
We'll call you back.

00:45:07.088 --> 00:45:07.409
Thank you.

00:45:07.449 --> 00:45:09.530
Yeah, it's totally cool.

00:45:10.090 --> 00:45:12.972
Sunset's been disconnected

00:45:12.992 --> 00:45:14.612
from Slack and it's like, all fine.

00:45:14.632 --> 00:45:16.074
All fine.

00:45:16.153 --> 00:45:18.556
Just phone must have run out of battery.

00:45:20.976 --> 00:45:21.496
Oh my god.

00:45:22.717 --> 00:45:23.418
Yeah, I don't know.

00:45:24.338 --> 00:45:26.981
I mean, which I guess is in the end,

00:45:27.161 --> 00:45:29.342
that's probably healthy.

00:45:30.422 --> 00:45:31.123
I do think that

00:45:32.139 --> 00:45:33.739
unlike other organizations,

00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:38.340
and maybe there will always

00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:39.481
be a figment and a block, David,

00:45:39.501 --> 00:45:40.661
maybe those things just continue on,

00:45:40.681 --> 00:45:40.862
right?

00:45:41.382 --> 00:45:43.563
But maybe for other organizations,

00:45:43.663 --> 00:45:44.903
it's good that there is a

00:45:45.083 --> 00:45:47.083
birth of maturity and death

00:45:47.684 --> 00:45:50.164
associated to some brands

00:45:50.244 --> 00:45:52.405
where there's constant-

00:45:52.425 --> 00:45:53.927
It's a cycle of life, as you said.

00:45:53.967 --> 00:45:55.766
It's a cycle of degen life

00:45:55.806 --> 00:45:58.128
where some brands

00:45:58.188 --> 00:45:59.208
eventually disappear and

00:45:59.228 --> 00:46:00.449
the value that they provided-

00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:03.643
are no longer needed and and

00:46:03.663 --> 00:46:04.724
it moves on you know what I

00:46:04.744 --> 00:46:06.206
mean so like we've been

00:46:06.226 --> 00:46:07.266
starting some some chains

00:46:07.286 --> 00:46:09.849
that like ethereum like

00:46:09.909 --> 00:46:11.311
even even even our ethereum

00:46:11.351 --> 00:46:12.954
nodes I think is is anybody

00:46:12.974 --> 00:46:13.875
can run ethereum notes I

00:46:13.914 --> 00:46:15.217
think and especially like

00:46:15.257 --> 00:46:16.438
with dbt technology

00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:18.610
even even with what they're

00:46:18.650 --> 00:46:19.791
what lido's doing with you

00:46:19.811 --> 00:46:21.112
know ssv and oball and

00:46:21.132 --> 00:46:21.793
things like that the whole

00:46:21.873 --> 00:46:22.793
point is to be able to push

00:46:22.833 --> 00:46:24.835
it down and create a lower

00:46:24.855 --> 00:46:25.635
risk situation where you

00:46:25.655 --> 00:46:27.115
have a you know a three of

00:46:27.155 --> 00:46:28.197
five or a five of seven

00:46:28.237 --> 00:46:29.938
that's signing um so you

00:46:30.018 --> 00:46:32.199
reduce that redundancy and

00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:34.019
that need for professional

00:46:34.061 --> 00:46:35.101
node ops and people can run

00:46:35.141 --> 00:46:36.262
it I mean what the hell I

00:46:36.282 --> 00:46:37.943
could I could run ethereum node out of my

00:46:38.947 --> 00:46:40.369
my um house right now it'd

00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:41.751
be great right like there's

00:46:41.771 --> 00:46:42.632
to be no issue with it I'm

00:46:42.692 --> 00:46:44.072
sure I could run it at a

00:46:44.132 --> 00:46:45.233
level that would be fine

00:46:45.273 --> 00:46:45.954
for those sorts of

00:46:45.974 --> 00:46:47.315
situations and I think I

00:46:47.356 --> 00:46:49.597
think that goal of trying

00:46:49.699 --> 00:46:52.942
to reduce that um reduce

00:46:52.981 --> 00:46:54.483
that need is great I mean I

00:46:54.503 --> 00:46:55.704
mean it's it makes sense my

00:46:55.764 --> 00:46:56.625
only problem is that's

00:46:56.704 --> 00:46:57.565
right now where I where I

00:46:57.606 --> 00:46:59.007
basically make the most of

00:46:59.027 --> 00:47:01.389
my living yeah so so

00:47:01.976 --> 00:47:03.059
Working and also like

00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:04.141
there's other types of things like,

00:47:04.722 --> 00:47:06.106
you know, snapshots on chains.

00:47:06.286 --> 00:47:07.409
Like I think that should

00:47:07.728 --> 00:47:08.871
like a goal would be to

00:47:08.972 --> 00:47:09.813
never take a snapshot.

00:47:10.429 --> 00:47:11.371
Like there should be

00:47:11.650 --> 00:47:12.931
realistic ways to be able

00:47:12.952 --> 00:47:13.952
to catch up very quickly

00:47:14.652 --> 00:47:16.213
from a node perspective that allows,

00:47:16.353 --> 00:47:17.574
that doesn't require moving

00:47:17.574 --> 00:47:19.315
700 terabytes of fucking data around.

00:47:19.795 --> 00:47:20.735
Like those are all things

00:47:20.795 --> 00:47:22.197
that I think are good goals

00:47:22.237 --> 00:47:23.398
that will eventually go away.

00:47:23.418 --> 00:47:26.219
And good goals are of issues

00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:27.599
that creates opportunities

00:47:27.619 --> 00:47:29.862
for teams that will go away

00:47:30.101 --> 00:47:31.503
and that will be replaced

00:47:31.543 --> 00:47:33.204
by another need that comes forward.

00:47:33.284 --> 00:47:35.804
But it's just, I don't know.

00:47:36.545 --> 00:47:36.806
We'll see.

00:47:39.509 --> 00:47:40.168
It doesn't need to last for

00:47:40.208 --> 00:47:40.869
me for 30 years.

00:47:40.929 --> 00:47:44.032
I just want to keep plugging

00:47:44.052 --> 00:47:46.775
away at it where we're able

00:47:46.795 --> 00:47:48.336
to offer value in a way

00:47:48.356 --> 00:47:50.780
that makes sense for the

00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.780
teams and the ones that

00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:52.221
we're working with.

00:47:52.938 --> 00:47:53.217
Yeah,

00:47:53.338 --> 00:47:56.978
I guess I suppose from our point of view,

00:47:57.099 --> 00:47:58.559
we're obviously committed

00:47:58.579 --> 00:47:59.280
to running the chains that

00:47:59.300 --> 00:47:59.940
we're committed to run.

00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:00.840
Ironically,

00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:02.880
we were obviously winding down on Mars,

00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:03.981
and then Mars were like, well,

00:48:04.001 --> 00:48:05.101
we're going to wind down on you.

00:48:05.221 --> 00:48:06.501
So they broke up with us

00:48:06.561 --> 00:48:07.782
before we could break up with them.

00:48:07.802 --> 00:48:08.202
Well,

00:48:08.222 --> 00:48:09.442
maybe because you were talking shit

00:48:09.481 --> 00:48:14.563
on Game of Thrones for eight episodes.

00:48:14.603 --> 00:48:15.963
Have a blockchain that does something then,

00:48:16.003 --> 00:48:18.405
lads, would be my advice on that.

00:48:20.385 --> 00:48:22.467
We've run that validator at

00:48:22.527 --> 00:48:24.128
a loss for two years or

00:48:24.309 --> 00:48:25.190
whatever the length of time

00:48:25.230 --> 00:48:26.070
that chain has existed.

00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:28.913
What are you going to do?

00:48:28.972 --> 00:48:30.994
At the end of the day,

00:48:31.494 --> 00:48:34.197
none of the servers are cheap either.

00:48:34.577 --> 00:48:38.400
Is the cost of that server

00:48:38.420 --> 00:48:39.360
going to put us out of business?

00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:39.420
No.

00:48:40.699 --> 00:48:41.721
do we want to be paying the

00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:42.702
cost of that server?

00:48:43.443 --> 00:48:44.744
No, absolutely not.

00:48:44.844 --> 00:48:45.784
Every, every single,

00:48:46.505 --> 00:48:47.467
every single a hundred dollars,

00:48:47.507 --> 00:48:49.688
every single $200, whatever it might be,

00:48:49.708 --> 00:48:50.969
you know,

00:48:50.989 --> 00:48:52.411
is burning away from our runway.

00:48:52.431 --> 00:48:52.952
And yeah,

00:48:57.563 --> 00:48:58.423
the business that we have in

00:48:58.443 --> 00:48:59.485
its current form is not

00:48:59.525 --> 00:49:01.925
going to exist in two years,

00:49:01.945 --> 00:49:02.766
I would guess.

00:49:07.367 --> 00:49:08.628
You make that case for any business though,

00:49:08.648 --> 00:49:08.768
right?

00:49:09.807 --> 00:49:09.987
Sure,

00:49:10.027 --> 00:49:11.909
but I think this space moves so quickly,

00:49:11.929 --> 00:49:13.969
I think commodity validation,

00:49:14.369 --> 00:49:17.451
primarily what we do, will go away.

00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:19.150
And I think a lot of the

00:49:19.610 --> 00:49:21.391
foundation delegations we've got have,

00:49:21.492 --> 00:49:22.152
like you say, been

00:49:25.675 --> 00:49:27.856
either have been mainly

00:49:27.896 --> 00:49:29.036
contingent on giving advice

00:49:29.096 --> 00:49:30.356
in early stages, right?

00:49:31.217 --> 00:49:32.896
Which is a valuable thing.

00:49:33.137 --> 00:49:34.438
Which is a valuable thing.

00:49:35.398 --> 00:49:38.739
But after a point, foundations, chains,

00:49:38.818 --> 00:49:39.318
networks,

00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:40.659
whoever it is that's the

00:49:40.699 --> 00:49:42.920
counterparty in that goes, well, look,

00:49:42.981 --> 00:49:44.380
we're well past genesis now.

00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:47.581
The additional value is not here,

00:49:48.181 --> 00:49:49.182
which is understandable.

00:49:49.282 --> 00:49:50.103
I understand it.

00:49:50.963 --> 00:49:52.485
Um, but it's not, you know,

00:49:52.505 --> 00:49:53.405
it's not an income source

00:49:53.445 --> 00:49:54.005
you can rely on.

00:49:54.025 --> 00:49:55.067
So it kind of comes back to like,

00:49:55.226 --> 00:49:56.367
is it recurring income for

00:49:56.407 --> 00:49:57.449
us as a business to then

00:49:58.170 --> 00:50:00.452
use that income as the basis to expand?

00:50:01.152 --> 00:50:02.855
No, no, it's absolutely not.

00:50:02.894 --> 00:50:03.795
Like the conclusion,

00:50:03.815 --> 00:50:05.436
if you make a hundred

00:50:05.476 --> 00:50:08.500
dollars from validation today, you,

00:50:08.619 --> 00:50:10.041
it's not a given that you

00:50:10.121 --> 00:50:12.282
should invest $50 of that

00:50:12.302 --> 00:50:13.103
in trying to make $200 in

00:50:13.143 --> 00:50:13.764
validation next month.

00:50:17.539 --> 00:50:18.440
Because the fact that you

00:50:18.460 --> 00:50:20.641
even make $100 today,

00:50:20.661 --> 00:50:26.625
it's not something that

00:50:26.684 --> 00:50:27.465
works in the way that

00:50:27.525 --> 00:50:29.106
normal business accounting does.

00:50:29.126 --> 00:50:30.146
Like for all of our other

00:50:30.186 --> 00:50:31.706
contracts and stuff where you just go, oh,

00:50:31.726 --> 00:50:32.146
okay, well,

00:50:32.166 --> 00:50:33.148
this month we're going to pay this.

00:50:33.748 --> 00:50:35.289
Next month they want more deliverables,

00:50:35.389 --> 00:50:36.389
so whatever.

00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:38.030
And then that project's

00:50:38.070 --> 00:50:38.670
probably going to come to

00:50:38.710 --> 00:50:39.851
an end in four months' time.

00:50:39.951 --> 00:50:41.572
So in two months' time,

00:50:42.311 --> 00:50:43.552
we need to start thinking

00:50:43.572 --> 00:50:44.373
about what will be the next

00:50:44.413 --> 00:50:45.474
project we want to onboard.

00:50:46.166 --> 00:50:47.288
and go and talk to people

00:50:47.347 --> 00:50:48.949
and then get something lined up and blah,

00:50:48.969 --> 00:50:49.429
blah, blah.

00:50:49.469 --> 00:50:49.748
You know,

00:50:50.489 --> 00:50:51.809
it just doesn't really work in that way,

00:50:51.989 --> 00:50:52.911
which yeah, you know,

00:50:52.951 --> 00:50:54.492
whatever different markets are different,

00:50:54.532 --> 00:50:54.711
right?

00:50:55.012 --> 00:50:55.972
Like it's not a complaint.

00:50:55.992 --> 00:50:57.333
It's just an observation really.

00:50:58.134 --> 00:50:58.594
And credit says,

00:50:58.634 --> 00:50:59.195
because we're all going to

00:50:59.215 --> 00:50:59.735
make it and be rich.

00:50:59.775 --> 00:50:59.954
Right.

00:51:00.034 --> 00:51:00.215
Right.

00:51:00.574 --> 00:51:00.936
Exactly.

00:51:01.755 --> 00:51:03.456
that's correct that's I mean

00:51:03.476 --> 00:51:04.077
that's 100 we know that and

00:51:04.137 --> 00:51:06.059
I was hopefully hopefully I

00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:07.940
didn't hopefully probably

00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:09.081
didn't say anything against

00:51:09.101 --> 00:51:09.922
that because that's 100

00:51:09.922 --> 00:51:11.764
could happen uh yeah I mean

00:51:12.284 --> 00:51:14.085
I mean like uh oh something

00:51:14.186 --> 00:51:15.027
so something really really

00:51:15.067 --> 00:51:16.347
tragic uh happened the

00:51:16.387 --> 00:51:17.528
other day which was I was

00:51:17.568 --> 00:51:19.050
in our shared office um I

00:51:19.550 --> 00:51:20.451
was just chilling making a

00:51:20.471 --> 00:51:21.672
cup of coffee and then

00:51:22.532 --> 00:51:24.014
somebody somebody who works

00:51:24.034 --> 00:51:25.134
there for one of the other

00:51:25.195 --> 00:51:26.655
companies was just like hey hey um

00:51:27.789 --> 00:51:31.235
do you remember it right the

00:51:31.275 --> 00:51:32.538
name you worked for a

00:51:32.597 --> 00:51:34.521
blockchain called Juno and

00:51:34.601 --> 00:51:36.244
I was like yeah some time

00:51:36.264 --> 00:51:37.947
ago yeah I worked for a

00:51:37.987 --> 00:51:38.969
blockchain called Juno and I was like

00:51:39.710 --> 00:51:41.311
are you a man uh like they

00:51:41.331 --> 00:51:42.532
were like oh they held some

00:51:42.552 --> 00:51:43.413
crypto and stuff and they

00:51:43.432 --> 00:51:44.333
just got you and they were

00:51:44.353 --> 00:51:45.414
like they're like how is

00:51:45.574 --> 00:51:46.715
how is that going how is

00:51:46.735 --> 00:51:47.856
that going how's that token

00:51:47.916 --> 00:51:50.217
and I was like I was like I

00:51:50.378 --> 00:51:51.398
don't know I think like

00:51:51.478 --> 00:51:52.639
it's it's obviously like

00:51:52.838 --> 00:51:54.199
you know nothing on its

00:51:54.260 --> 00:51:55.481
all-time high but I think

00:51:55.521 --> 00:51:56.422
it's probably doing all

00:51:56.461 --> 00:51:57.641
right now and they

00:51:57.681 --> 00:51:58.603
literally they got the

00:51:58.643 --> 00:51:59.884
chart up on their phone

00:52:01.364 --> 00:52:02.784
it's the day what worse

00:52:02.824 --> 00:52:03.646
what are they just like

00:52:03.706 --> 00:52:04.527
they just turned it around

00:52:04.567 --> 00:52:05.126
to me I was like

00:52:06.467 --> 00:52:07.088
Oh, man.

00:52:07.329 --> 00:52:09.431
Yeah, I was like, I was like, oh, shit,

00:52:09.451 --> 00:52:10.251
that's actually doing way

00:52:10.291 --> 00:52:11.492
worse than I thought it was.

00:52:11.972 --> 00:52:14.034
And they were like, oh, right.

00:52:14.193 --> 00:52:14.554
Okay.

00:52:14.815 --> 00:52:15.655
And then I was just like,

00:52:15.675 --> 00:52:16.916
I just stood there.

00:52:16.956 --> 00:52:17.597
They said they're like,

00:52:17.617 --> 00:52:18.858
they're sort of like just talking to me.

00:52:18.878 --> 00:52:19.498
And I was just like,

00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:21.460
stood there doing the mental math.

00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.061
And it was like, yep, yep.

00:52:24.322 --> 00:52:26.583
It's in the it's in the ballpark.

00:52:26.623 --> 00:52:26.804
Yeah.

00:52:28.367 --> 00:52:29.929
It's in the ballpark of

00:52:30.208 --> 00:52:31.510
literally could write it

00:52:31.570 --> 00:52:34.552
down as a complete

00:52:34.632 --> 00:52:35.992
inventory loss at this

00:52:36.072 --> 00:52:38.233
point because of its margin

00:52:38.375 --> 00:52:40.615
on the original acquisition value.

00:52:40.996 --> 00:52:41.436
Whoops.

00:52:42.257 --> 00:52:43.657
Should have sold it.

00:52:43.677 --> 00:52:44.719
They're like, sorry, you've

00:52:45.259 --> 00:52:45.498
You know,

00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:48.981
like in one of those war films

00:52:49.041 --> 00:52:50.362
where it shows them in

00:52:50.402 --> 00:52:51.583
later life and somebody

00:52:51.603 --> 00:52:52.322
says something to them and

00:52:52.744 --> 00:52:54.003
they just get that ringing

00:52:54.043 --> 00:52:55.505
in the ears and just zone out.

00:52:55.925 --> 00:52:56.666
Yeah.

00:52:57.126 --> 00:52:59.268
Gradually the ringing stops.

00:52:59.728 --> 00:53:00.809
Yeah, the ringing stops.

00:53:00.889 --> 00:53:03.110
It's like their mother being like,

00:53:03.610 --> 00:53:05.572
would you like more pancakes, Timmy?

00:53:06.052 --> 00:53:07.472
And they're just like, oh, sorry, Ma.

00:53:07.492 --> 00:53:09.273
Yeah, I'll have two pancakes, please.

00:53:10.083 --> 00:53:11.083
what were you thinking about

00:53:11.123 --> 00:53:13.463
timmy uh nothing ma I was

00:53:13.483 --> 00:53:14.244
just thinking about

00:53:14.284 --> 00:53:15.744
something that happened in

00:53:15.784 --> 00:53:17.605
the war it's like it's like

00:53:17.644 --> 00:53:18.585
that they're like they're

00:53:18.606 --> 00:53:19.686
like hey man um are you

00:53:19.706 --> 00:53:20.445
gonna finish making that

00:53:20.485 --> 00:53:21.146
coffee because I want to

00:53:21.166 --> 00:53:22.067
make one after you and

00:53:22.086 --> 00:53:23.286
you're like you're just

00:53:23.327 --> 00:53:24.766
like ears rigging staring

00:53:26.148 --> 00:53:27.108
matt damon's in the corner

00:53:27.128 --> 00:53:28.427
grabbing his grabbing his

00:53:28.487 --> 00:53:30.329
knees crying you're like what the hell

00:53:32.014 --> 00:53:32.653
Yeah, pretty much.

00:53:33.175 --> 00:53:35.195
Um, but, but like, okay, so right.

00:53:35.235 --> 00:53:36.155
But back to the thing of like,

00:53:36.235 --> 00:53:37.516
it's dangerous to get in

00:53:37.556 --> 00:53:39.577
bed with a foundation or whatever and,

00:53:39.757 --> 00:53:39.858
and,

00:53:39.978 --> 00:53:42.219
and devote too much time to any one

00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:42.699
project.

00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.041
Like, you know, there's your reason like,

00:53:46.141 --> 00:53:47.402
is that, is that, you know,

00:53:47.543 --> 00:53:48.603
these things can be very profitable.

00:53:48.623 --> 00:53:49.784
They can work very well and

00:53:49.824 --> 00:53:50.885
they can also become a

00:53:50.925 --> 00:53:51.885
massive time sink and

00:53:51.925 --> 00:53:52.786
actually not return.

00:53:53.512 --> 00:53:54.594
yeah for sure a

00:53:54.634 --> 00:53:55.634
proportionate return right

00:53:55.753 --> 00:53:57.735
yeah um and so maybe you're

00:53:57.755 --> 00:53:58.556
just better off you know

00:53:58.596 --> 00:54:00.416
with with um artifacts

00:54:00.436 --> 00:54:02.737
approach you know kiss kiss

00:54:02.777 --> 00:54:03.778
thousand frogs find a

00:54:03.798 --> 00:54:08.440
thousand blockchains um we

00:54:08.481 --> 00:54:11.103
were uh yeah actually but

00:54:11.242 --> 00:54:13.384
but I i don't I don't know

00:54:13.403 --> 00:54:15.045
if that's the case either like I mean

00:54:16.391 --> 00:54:17.911
I think running nodes for

00:54:17.972 --> 00:54:18.751
every single thing,

00:54:18.771 --> 00:54:21.572
I know there's a lot that do that.

00:54:21.693 --> 00:54:22.253
I think that's just

00:54:22.552 --> 00:54:24.213
exhausting and not the

00:54:24.233 --> 00:54:24.693
right way of doing it.

00:54:24.713 --> 00:54:25.773
You don't want to be Pikachu

00:54:25.813 --> 00:54:26.833
running 18,000 nodes?

00:54:26.934 --> 00:54:28.454
I don't.

00:54:28.594 --> 00:54:29.454
I have no interest in that.

00:54:30.335 --> 00:54:31.155
I have no interest in that.

00:54:31.894 --> 00:54:33.094
And maybe that's a strategy.

00:54:33.215 --> 00:54:33.514
I don't know.

00:54:33.795 --> 00:54:34.594
I just don't.

00:54:34.655 --> 00:54:36.896
I think I have a strategy, by the way.

00:54:37.635 --> 00:54:38.596
I was thinking about this.

00:54:39.396 --> 00:54:41.757
The answer is you only pick winners.

00:54:42.556 --> 00:54:43.016
That's a good idea.

00:54:44.096 --> 00:54:44.255
Yeah,

00:54:44.295 --> 00:54:45.516
I just haven't been able to execute

00:54:45.556 --> 00:54:46.217
on it somehow.

00:54:47.898 --> 00:54:49.579
Shit, we told that people live on air,

00:54:49.659 --> 00:54:49.840
huh?

00:54:50.019 --> 00:54:51.380
We just thought we'd just give it out.

00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:53.181
Billion dollar advice here today.

00:54:53.782 --> 00:54:55.043
How to start service business,

00:54:55.083 --> 00:54:55.864
how to pick winners.

00:54:57.065 --> 00:54:57.264
Okay,

00:54:57.284 --> 00:54:58.385
we didn't tell you how to pick winners,

00:54:58.405 --> 00:54:59.126
but we just told you.

00:55:00.126 --> 00:55:02.068
Can't lose if you always pick winners.

00:55:02.668 --> 00:55:04.130
It's going on the game of those merch.

00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:06.590
You can't lose if you always pick winners.

00:55:07.032 --> 00:55:08.652
I just, I don't know.

00:55:09.253 --> 00:55:10.014
I got to meet the team.

00:55:10.034 --> 00:55:11.635
I got to feel comfortable.

00:55:12.010 --> 00:55:13.472
with the people you work with, right?

00:55:14.012 --> 00:55:15.094
And you have to look them in

00:55:15.134 --> 00:55:16.815
the eye and let them know

00:55:16.835 --> 00:55:18.798
if anything else, right?

00:55:18.818 --> 00:55:21.782
I view it as a partnership

00:55:21.822 --> 00:55:22.782
because I'm investing.

00:55:22.802 --> 00:55:24.324
I view it as an investment

00:55:24.364 --> 00:55:25.326
because what I'm really

00:55:25.346 --> 00:55:27.148
doing is I'm investing time

00:55:27.347 --> 00:55:29.050
and true dollars into those

00:55:29.090 --> 00:55:29.731
types of things, right?

00:55:30.614 --> 00:55:31.315
And then, like,

00:55:31.355 --> 00:55:32.556
similar to other chains that we run,

00:55:32.695 --> 00:55:33.456
if we start something

00:55:33.476 --> 00:55:34.697
new... I like the way that you say it.

00:55:34.777 --> 00:55:36.478
You make the really clear distinction.

00:55:36.557 --> 00:55:38.079
We are investing true dollars.

00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:38.958
Not shit coins.

00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:40.360
Not shit coins.

00:55:40.659 --> 00:55:42.121
Fucking dollars that we pay.

00:55:42.141 --> 00:55:44.322
Yeah.

00:55:44.681 --> 00:55:44.842
Like,

00:55:44.882 --> 00:55:49.284
if I could find a way where all of

00:55:49.364 --> 00:55:50.485
our hardware vendors... If

00:55:50.545 --> 00:55:51.865
I built a shit coin and all

00:55:51.885 --> 00:55:53.186
of our hardware vendors ran

00:55:53.246 --> 00:55:54.086
validators on it,

00:55:54.106 --> 00:55:55.288
I could mint tokens and

00:55:55.307 --> 00:55:56.467
just pay them in commission.

00:55:57.329 --> 00:55:58.409
That'd be fucking awesome.

00:55:58.469 --> 00:55:59.030
Can I do that?

00:55:59.150 --> 00:55:59.309
Would...

00:56:00.603 --> 00:56:01.463
I mean, you can,

00:56:02.244 --> 00:56:03.204
whether it's got to

00:56:03.244 --> 00:56:05.786
convince them all is run,

00:56:05.885 --> 00:56:08.146
run your own note on my shit coin thing.

00:56:08.286 --> 00:56:09.347
And then I'm just going to

00:56:09.746 --> 00:56:11.467
stake a fuckload of make-believe on you.

00:56:11.487 --> 00:56:17.170
I mean, it's all a confidence trick.

00:56:17.250 --> 00:56:18.690
It's just a waterfalls,

00:56:18.929 --> 00:56:20.190
waterfalls of fucking,

00:56:20.231 --> 00:56:21.271
why didn't I think about that earlier?

00:56:22.148 --> 00:56:23.668
Um, but anyway, so, and then, but,

00:56:23.688 --> 00:56:24.969
but like if we start something now,

00:56:25.048 --> 00:56:27.329
like in whatever, June of 2024,

00:56:27.329 --> 00:56:28.168
like I'm not expecting

00:56:28.208 --> 00:56:32.670
anything from it until 2026, 2027.

00:56:32.670 --> 00:56:36.150
Like it takes years unless there's an even,

00:56:36.210 --> 00:56:37.510
even like at main net launches.

00:56:37.550 --> 00:56:39.590
Like I get really, um,

00:56:40.710 --> 00:56:43.132
I get really fucking, uh,

00:56:43.532 --> 00:56:45.152
weird about like dumping on

00:56:45.291 --> 00:56:46.512
day one main net launches.

00:56:46.532 --> 00:56:47.431
Like I just don't like doing that.

00:56:48.192 --> 00:56:49.572
Um, which is probably a wrong,

00:56:49.713 --> 00:56:51.492
like probably a mistake, but that's dumb.

00:56:52.652 --> 00:56:53.552
There's always a two-day

00:56:53.572 --> 00:56:54.672
pump after the thing

00:56:54.693 --> 00:56:55.534
launches in the next two days.

00:56:55.693 --> 00:56:59.835
The only reason we ever made

00:56:59.876 --> 00:57:01.237
any money on Stargaze was

00:57:01.257 --> 00:57:04.318
because we swallowed... We

00:57:04.539 --> 00:57:06.079
held our nose and did that

00:57:08.311 --> 00:57:08.791
I should have.

00:57:08.811 --> 00:57:10.193
I, when I first started,

00:57:10.213 --> 00:57:11.512
I'm such a fucking moron.

00:57:11.813 --> 00:57:12.793
Like when I first started, um,

00:57:14.074 --> 00:57:14.735
with like back in the

00:57:14.775 --> 00:57:16.375
osmosis and stargaze type stuff,

00:57:16.394 --> 00:57:17.615
like I was so,

00:57:17.896 --> 00:57:20.137
I was so like worried about

00:57:20.197 --> 00:57:22.018
like position in the set,

00:57:22.137 --> 00:57:23.838
which does really matter.

00:57:24.458 --> 00:57:25.239
It does matter a lot.

00:57:25.278 --> 00:57:26.920
And especially as a cosmos,

00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:27.739
it mattered a lot.

00:57:27.780 --> 00:57:28.500
It mattered a lot.

00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:30.041
Or is that existed at a time

00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:31.621
in the format that they

00:57:31.661 --> 00:57:32.442
existed at the time.

00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:34.641
So like, so like dumping shit always,

00:57:34.661 --> 00:57:35.581
I was, you know, I was like,

00:57:35.621 --> 00:57:35.983
I'm just going to,

00:57:36.003 --> 00:57:36.483
I'm just going to put it

00:57:36.523 --> 00:57:37.563
back and put it back, put it back.

00:57:37.623 --> 00:57:37.764
Right.

00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:39.063
And so we would always try to get our,

00:57:39.605 --> 00:57:41.545
our personal validator bond higher.

00:57:41.565 --> 00:57:43.025
We would always stake that and restake it.

00:57:43.045 --> 00:57:43.666
And we would, you know,

00:57:44.007 --> 00:57:44.746
we wouldn't do it like on a

00:57:44.806 --> 00:57:45.387
script or anything,

00:57:45.427 --> 00:57:46.748
although I have done that before, but not,

00:57:46.867 --> 00:57:47.708
not like traditionally.

00:57:48.809 --> 00:57:49.389
But we were always like,

00:57:49.730 --> 00:57:50.530
I was always concerned about it.

00:57:51.170 --> 00:57:51.990
So I wanted to put it back in.

00:57:52.871 --> 00:57:54.032
And now I look back on that and like,

00:57:54.052 --> 00:57:54.753
what the fuck is I doing?

00:57:54.952 --> 00:57:55.072
Like,

00:57:56.414 --> 00:57:57.996
We work for two years on something,

00:57:58.317 --> 00:57:59.338
and once it goes go live,

00:57:59.637 --> 00:58:00.800
maybe after a certain period of time,

00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:01.920
it doesn't have to be all of it,

00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:03.762
but there should be a return.

00:58:04.762 --> 00:58:06.824
It's not a return because we're dumping.

00:58:06.864 --> 00:58:08.086
It's a return because we

00:58:08.106 --> 00:58:09.007
paid two years of costs

00:58:09.068 --> 00:58:09.768
associated to something.

00:58:09.907 --> 00:58:12.771
Every network has a double hump shape,

00:58:12.851 --> 00:58:13.132
right?

00:58:15.333 --> 00:58:16.994
It's very few that come back up.

00:58:17.014 --> 00:58:17.835
Yeah.

00:58:19.197 --> 00:58:20.518
so you have to you have to

00:58:20.557 --> 00:58:21.518
make that money and at this

00:58:21.577 --> 00:58:22.538
point like you know I think

00:58:22.557 --> 00:58:25.018
for us on stargaze we

00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:25.980
obviously made some money

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:29.021
there for the first the

00:58:29.041 --> 00:58:31.001
first moment a little bit

00:58:31.461 --> 00:58:32.902
yeah I think we're probably

00:58:32.942 --> 00:58:34.222
in a loss on that chain now

00:58:35.063 --> 00:58:37.164
oh yeah I would don't doubt

00:58:37.324 --> 00:58:39.885
it um yeah but but also I

00:58:39.905 --> 00:58:42.686
like I mean I also think that's like

00:58:43.927 --> 00:58:44.467
I mean,

00:58:44.648 --> 00:58:45.608
I haven't pulled commissions on

00:58:45.628 --> 00:58:47.489
Stargaze in probably, not even kidding,

00:58:47.588 --> 00:58:48.570
probably 15 months.

00:58:49.050 --> 00:58:50.030
I probably haven't touched

00:58:50.050 --> 00:58:50.690
that value in 15 months.

00:58:51.530 --> 00:58:52.612
I should be restaking that

00:58:52.652 --> 00:58:53.331
if I'm doing anything,

00:58:53.351 --> 00:58:53.992
but it isn't doing anything.

00:58:54.893 --> 00:58:56.094
But I don't even care

00:58:56.134 --> 00:58:57.494
because I also think that

00:58:58.114 --> 00:59:00.115
Stargaze have a much longer viewpoint on.

00:59:00.315 --> 00:59:01.896
I think it's so incredibly undervalued.

00:59:02.177 --> 00:59:03.918
I look at that token price, I was like,

00:59:03.938 --> 00:59:05.137
what the hell is going on with this shit?

00:59:05.739 --> 00:59:05.918
It is.

00:59:05.938 --> 00:59:07.260
4 billion total issuance.

00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:08.420
That's what's going on.

00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:09.201
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:09.240 --> 00:59:09.561
It's true.

00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:10.061
Yeah.

00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:11.021
I think that's a problem.

00:59:11.041 --> 00:59:11.442
That's a problem.

00:59:12.728 --> 00:59:13.148
Yeah,

00:59:13.327 --> 00:59:16.369
I think that tokenomics is... Are we

00:59:16.409 --> 00:59:17.610
done with that soon?

00:59:18.510 --> 00:59:20.492
Was it seven years or so?

00:59:20.532 --> 00:59:20.911
I forget.

00:59:20.952 --> 00:59:21.833
It was a pretty high... I

00:59:22.072 --> 00:59:22.992
think it was something like seven years.

00:59:23.112 --> 00:59:24.434
But, you know,

00:59:24.653 --> 00:59:25.313
you basically look at

00:59:25.934 --> 00:59:27.434
whatever your validator's making, right?

00:59:27.675 --> 00:59:30.416
And you go, okay,

00:59:30.496 --> 00:59:32.518
I think ours is probably at

00:59:32.518 --> 00:59:35.079
1.5 mil stargaze or something like that.

00:59:35.820 --> 00:59:36.000
Yeah.

00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:37.320
You mean staked?

00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:39.101
Yeah, yeah, something like that.

00:59:39.762 --> 00:59:39.922
You mean...

00:59:40.969 --> 00:59:42.451
Do you mean your own or do

00:59:42.490 --> 00:59:43.952
you mean like total?

00:59:44.672 --> 00:59:48.614
I think for, for total, I think 1.5 or so.

00:59:48.695 --> 00:59:49.835
Like we've compounded.

00:59:51.536 --> 00:59:51.737
Yeah.

00:59:51.757 --> 00:59:52.336
Something like that.

00:59:52.436 --> 00:59:53.197
It's nearly that much.

00:59:53.318 --> 00:59:54.257
We have probably worth like

00:59:54.257 --> 00:59:55.398
15 grand or something.

00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:59.380
We have 19 staked and I have only.

00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:02.402
Oh, actually there's not much on here.

01:00:02.422 --> 01:00:03.864
It's only like a couple hundred thousand,

01:00:03.864 --> 01:00:04.465
400,000.

01:00:04.465 --> 01:00:08.226
Where the hell did it all go?

01:00:09.411 --> 01:00:10.130
Where did it go, lads?

01:00:10.711 --> 01:00:11.291
Where did it go?

01:00:11.311 --> 01:00:14.813
But with the kind of

01:00:14.873 --> 01:00:16.855
issuance that it's going to get,

01:00:16.875 --> 01:00:19.356
I think it's just going to drop further.

01:00:19.376 --> 01:00:22.637
I think Stargaze is going to

01:00:22.677 --> 01:00:23.418
lose its money until we

01:00:23.458 --> 01:00:24.838
eventually turn that validator off,

01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:25.980
is my prediction.

01:00:27.019 --> 01:00:28.701
Yeah.

01:00:29.061 --> 01:00:29.902
I believe in the project,

01:00:30.181 --> 01:00:33.523
but I just don't think the

01:00:33.543 --> 01:00:34.603
problem is that Cosmos

01:00:34.643 --> 01:00:35.485
doesn't have the juice.

01:00:36.590 --> 01:00:37.650
it's two things right I

01:00:37.690 --> 01:00:38.590
think number one cosmos

01:00:38.610 --> 01:00:39.371
doesn't have the juice

01:00:39.871 --> 01:00:42.112
number two I think the the

01:00:42.233 --> 01:00:43.612
market cycles have not

01:00:43.672 --> 01:00:45.753
worked out in the favor of

01:00:45.914 --> 01:00:47.215
the projects and number

01:00:47.235 --> 01:00:48.396
three I think by the time

01:00:50.076 --> 01:00:51.597
by the time it did have the

01:00:51.637 --> 01:00:52.777
juice like something else

01:00:52.797 --> 01:00:54.297
will come along and and the

01:00:54.438 --> 01:00:55.579
and the other problem with

01:00:55.619 --> 01:00:58.440
that is that a year is an

01:00:58.500 --> 01:00:59.601
infinity in crypto and

01:01:00.259 --> 01:01:01.739
by the time you get to 0.3, right,

01:01:02.081 --> 01:01:03.282
we're already two years

01:01:03.581 --> 01:01:04.422
after mainnet launch.

01:01:04.862 --> 01:01:05.663
It's going to be three,

01:01:05.844 --> 01:01:07.585
maybe four at that point.

01:01:08.166 --> 01:01:09.786
And, you know, we're already,

01:01:10.106 --> 01:01:12.409
we passed 10,000 chains ages ago.

01:01:12.528 --> 01:01:14.510
Cosmos is 82 plus or

01:01:14.550 --> 01:01:16.132
something in production.

01:01:16.152 --> 01:01:17.413
In production what?

01:01:17.432 --> 01:01:18.034
Production chains.

01:01:18.134 --> 01:01:19.235
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:19.335 --> 01:01:20.235
So, you know,

01:01:20.376 --> 01:01:20.876
it's just like

01:01:22.737 --> 01:01:24.059
differentiating yourself in

01:01:24.099 --> 01:01:25.539
that environment.

01:01:25.820 --> 01:01:28.001
Like, it's just a saturation of...

01:01:29.900 --> 01:01:32.322
Um, the supply is high demand is low,

01:01:32.382 --> 01:01:32.563
right?

01:01:32.922 --> 01:01:34.164
That's the bottom line.

01:01:34.204 --> 01:01:34.403
Right.

01:01:34.643 --> 01:01:36.385
And if your token's got 4

01:01:36.385 --> 01:01:37.525
billion issuance or

01:01:37.545 --> 01:01:38.945
whatever the number is,

01:01:38.965 --> 01:01:39.766
it'll have to double check

01:01:39.786 --> 01:01:40.447
the tokenomics.

01:01:41.226 --> 01:01:41.947
Now we're never going to

01:01:41.967 --> 01:01:42.708
make any money on that.

01:01:42.728 --> 01:01:44.168
That's not going to happen.

01:01:44.708 --> 01:01:44.889
Yeah.

01:01:45.449 --> 01:01:45.949
Did you see that,

01:01:46.010 --> 01:01:47.811
that whole Twitter hashtag

01:01:47.831 --> 01:01:49.231
around consolidate the chains today?

01:01:50.322 --> 01:01:51.121
No, what was that?

01:01:52.101 --> 01:01:53.123
I forget who started it.

01:01:53.362 --> 01:01:57.182
I saw Golden Ratio retweeted it.

01:01:57.222 --> 01:01:58.003
He said it as well.

01:01:58.344 --> 01:01:59.304
I forget who actually started it.

01:01:59.324 --> 01:02:00.023
Maybe somebody knows.

01:02:00.083 --> 01:02:01.664
And then I thought Ethan.

01:02:04.885 --> 01:02:08.405
Bookman also said that as well.

01:02:08.425 --> 01:02:12.525
It was like hashtag consolidate the chains,

01:02:12.565 --> 01:02:13.166
I thought it was.

01:02:13.766 --> 01:02:15.126
But I think the idea was like,

01:02:15.822 --> 01:02:15.922
Hey,

01:02:15.942 --> 01:02:18.164
there's already too many Cosmos chains,

01:02:18.204 --> 01:02:20.125
so let's pull it back.

01:02:24.068 --> 01:02:25.168
Cosmos ecosystem needs to

01:02:25.268 --> 01:02:25.929
consolidate chains.

01:02:25.969 --> 01:02:27.110
Cosmos needs to consolidate chains.

01:02:27.190 --> 01:02:29.152
Interchain needs to consolidate chains.

01:02:30.512 --> 01:02:31.813
Consolidate, consolidate, consolidate.

01:02:37.893 --> 01:02:39.014
You can be right,

01:02:39.193 --> 01:02:40.634
but still be saying

01:02:40.713 --> 01:02:41.693
something very dumb in

01:02:41.753 --> 01:02:43.934
public is what I've learned from my life.

01:02:46.896 --> 01:02:47.916
Would be my review on that.

01:02:48.996 --> 01:02:50.175
So Uncredited was saying,

01:02:50.195 --> 01:02:51.396
I think in relation to what

01:02:51.456 --> 01:02:52.157
you were talking about,

01:02:52.777 --> 01:02:54.056
you're doing a project now, 2024,

01:02:54.056 --> 01:02:55.498
you're not expecting to see

01:02:55.518 --> 01:02:56.077
a return on 2026.

01:02:56.077 --> 01:02:57.197
Until 2026, you said, right?

01:02:57.237 --> 01:02:57.697
So they said...

01:03:00.978 --> 01:03:03.340
So do you think outside of expected cycles,

01:03:03.460 --> 01:03:04.780
or does that not come into play?

01:03:07.021 --> 01:03:08.240
Oh, outside of expected cycles?

01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:09.101
No, it does not come into play.

01:03:10.461 --> 01:03:11.262
How do you predict that shit?

01:03:11.282 --> 01:03:12.021
If I could predict that,

01:03:12.041 --> 01:03:13.063
I wouldn't be in this fucking business,

01:03:13.143 --> 01:03:13.302
right?

01:03:13.362 --> 01:03:14.342
I would just be... You'd be

01:03:14.362 --> 01:03:15.282
at a beach somewhere, right?

01:03:15.402 --> 01:03:15.963
I'd be earning 20%.

01:03:16.043 --> 01:03:19.684
I'm sure we've talked about

01:03:19.804 --> 01:03:20.684
this in Game of Thrones before,

01:03:20.704 --> 01:03:21.905
but you know when he says that line?

01:03:21.985 --> 01:03:23.226
I love the line so much,

01:03:23.246 --> 01:03:24.585
I just let it fly over my head.

01:03:25.085 --> 01:03:26.586
But if you could earn 20%,

01:03:28.047 --> 01:03:30.228
You don't need to rob the Nakatomi Tower.

01:03:30.248 --> 01:03:31.289
You just can reach a bunch

01:03:31.309 --> 01:03:34.032
of investors to give you money and say,

01:03:34.112 --> 01:03:35.655
I'm going to take 5% of the 20,

01:03:35.655 --> 01:03:36.114
by the way.

01:03:36.135 --> 01:03:37.275
And they go, yeah, great.

01:03:37.315 --> 01:03:38.456
If you can earn 20%.

01:03:39.038 --> 01:03:39.197
Yeah.

01:03:39.237 --> 01:03:40.498
And then he just starts the

01:03:40.539 --> 01:03:41.860
most successful hedge fund in history.

01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:42.521
Yeah.

01:03:42.541 --> 01:03:44.623
Are they investing in Cosmos?

01:03:44.643 --> 01:03:44.903
Bitcoin?

01:03:49.827 --> 01:03:50.989
Is it Bitcoin?

01:03:54.137 --> 01:03:58.981
uh is that wait is it maybe

01:03:59.001 --> 01:04:01.764
it's an anagram wouldn't be

01:04:01.784 --> 01:04:02.885
great if it was or then we

01:04:02.905 --> 01:04:04.465
just like yeah we just we

01:04:04.485 --> 01:04:05.666
were just amateur sleuths

01:04:06.088 --> 01:04:07.909
like oh my fucking god you

01:04:07.929 --> 01:04:09.349
know I said that I was I

01:04:09.369 --> 01:04:11.811
read the other week that um

01:04:15.300 --> 01:04:17.141
There was a report on the

01:04:17.201 --> 01:04:18.422
legal cases brought around

01:04:18.461 --> 01:04:20.822
crypto in the UK and some

01:04:20.862 --> 01:04:21.943
of the outcomes and what it

01:04:21.963 --> 01:04:23.103
means for jurisdiction and

01:04:23.264 --> 01:04:24.844
citing of assets and blah, blah, blah.

01:04:25.206 --> 01:04:26.686
There was a really minor

01:04:26.865 --> 01:04:29.068
funny point about legal

01:04:29.628 --> 01:04:33.590
context where it was some

01:04:33.750 --> 01:04:35.431
crazy proportion of the

01:04:35.490 --> 01:04:37.391
cases that have come up in

01:04:37.472 --> 01:04:39.052
Britain that had then

01:04:39.152 --> 01:04:40.393
entered into British case law.

01:04:41.693 --> 01:04:42.634
I want to say it was like

01:04:42.634 --> 01:04:46.516
10% of the cases brought involved.

01:04:48.137 --> 01:04:48.317
God,

01:04:48.356 --> 01:04:50.277
what's the name of that guy who says

01:04:50.318 --> 01:04:52.199
he is Satoshi and keeps suing people?

01:04:52.219 --> 01:04:54.161
Oh, yeah.

01:04:54.201 --> 01:04:54.641
Craig Wright?

01:04:54.820 --> 01:04:55.402
Is it Craig Wright?

01:04:55.422 --> 01:04:55.922
Is that his name?

01:04:56.521 --> 01:04:57.282
I think it's Craig Wright.

01:04:57.847 --> 01:04:59.288
because he has a name like Ian Wright,

01:04:59.307 --> 01:04:59.867
the footballer.

01:05:00.128 --> 01:05:01.650
So I think it's Craig Wright is his name.

01:05:02.170 --> 01:05:02.831
But it was like, yeah,

01:05:03.010 --> 01:05:03.650
he's like something like

01:05:03.650 --> 01:05:05.833
10% of all cases related to

01:05:05.873 --> 01:05:06.572
crypto in any way,

01:05:06.612 --> 01:05:09.034
which is one guy suing people.

01:05:10.615 --> 01:05:11.097
And I was like,

01:05:12.197 --> 01:05:14.199
that really is quite a sad figure,

01:05:14.378 --> 01:05:15.519
like both in terms of like

01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:17.380
how little is coming up,

01:05:17.521 --> 01:05:18.942
but also that guy.

01:05:18.961 --> 01:05:20.222
I love it.

01:05:21.043 --> 01:05:21.244
What?

01:05:22.545 --> 01:05:22.945
I love it.

01:05:23.885 --> 01:05:24.306
Oh, dear.

01:05:24.326 --> 01:05:26.106
Oh, man.

01:05:27.887 --> 01:05:29.027
Do you want to talk about some news?

01:05:29.047 --> 01:05:30.248
Because there's some funny news this week.

01:05:30.268 --> 01:05:30.509
Yeah.

01:05:30.668 --> 01:05:31.088
What do we got?

01:05:32.550 --> 01:05:33.429
Well, first of all,

01:05:34.311 --> 01:05:35.952
all Bitcoins to come with a

01:05:35.972 --> 01:05:37.172
Made in America stamp, right?

01:05:37.512 --> 01:05:37.893
Yeah.

01:05:38.213 --> 01:05:39.853
So it's an election year in

01:05:39.873 --> 01:05:40.534
the United States,

01:05:40.693 --> 01:05:41.994
which usually means that

01:05:42.135 --> 01:05:42.896
everything is fucked.

01:05:45.237 --> 01:05:48.278
DT saying that he wants all

01:05:48.298 --> 01:05:49.800
remaining Bitcoin to be made, quote,

01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:50.760
made in USA.

01:05:50.920 --> 01:05:52.221
The quote exactly says,

01:05:53.190 --> 01:05:54.411
is Bitcoin mining may be our

01:05:54.471 --> 01:05:57.914
last line of defense against a CBDC.

01:05:58.755 --> 01:06:00.996
Biden's hatred of Bitcoin only helps China,

01:06:01.036 --> 01:06:02.777
Russia, and the radical communist left.

01:06:03.538 --> 01:06:04.458
We want all remaining

01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:05.659
Bitcoin to be made in the

01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:07.581
USA with three exclamation points.

01:06:08.222 --> 01:06:09.902
It will help us be energy dominant.

01:06:11.204 --> 01:06:11.425
Okay.

01:06:12.204 --> 01:06:12.485
Wow.

01:06:14.809 --> 01:06:15.871
I think energy dominant

01:06:15.891 --> 01:06:16.992
means like using the most,

01:06:17.092 --> 01:06:18.032
I guess that's what it means.

01:06:18.452 --> 01:06:18.753
Yeah.

01:06:18.974 --> 01:06:19.735
Burning the most shit.

01:06:20.315 --> 01:06:21.175
It will help us to

01:06:21.396 --> 01:06:22.978
pointlessly drive the world

01:06:23.117 --> 01:06:25.019
closer to climate collapse.

01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:25.860
I think I love it.

01:06:26.201 --> 01:06:27.581
Just using the most, using the most,

01:06:27.681 --> 01:06:29.143
most gold is best.

01:06:29.923 --> 01:06:30.985
Um, so yeah.

01:06:31.125 --> 01:06:31.666
So anyway, so, uh,

01:06:34.250 --> 01:06:36.652
wants to uh transpose likely

01:06:36.692 --> 01:06:37.753
indicates he'd like to see

01:06:37.773 --> 01:06:38.733
more bitcoin mining be done

01:06:38.894 --> 01:06:39.675
u.s companies using local

01:06:39.715 --> 01:06:41.297
resources current mining

01:06:41.336 --> 01:06:42.137
hotspots are in china

01:06:42.378 --> 01:06:43.918
central asian countries el

01:06:43.938 --> 01:06:44.880
salvador some european

01:06:44.900 --> 01:06:45.740
countries such as germany

01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:47.523
data shows early tuesday

01:06:47.563 --> 01:06:48.443
trump the first u.s

01:06:48.483 --> 01:06:49.443
president of kansas to

01:06:49.724 --> 01:06:51.827
accept crypto donations I'm

01:06:51.867 --> 01:06:52.606
actually surprised about

01:06:52.626 --> 01:06:53.547
that I actually thought

01:06:53.568 --> 01:06:55.210
that that was that was not

01:06:55.349 --> 01:06:57.351
the case I thought somebody

01:06:57.431 --> 01:06:58.193
was able to take

01:06:59.007 --> 01:07:01.409
bitcoin and usdc and and eth

01:07:01.429 --> 01:07:02.248
yeah I was gonna say four

01:07:02.268 --> 01:07:04.068
years ago like the guy well

01:07:04.088 --> 01:07:07.349
but didn't the that um ah

01:07:07.409 --> 01:07:08.490
god in the democratic

01:07:08.530 --> 01:07:09.690
primaries yeah that's what

01:07:09.710 --> 01:07:10.650
I'm thinking one of those

01:07:10.710 --> 01:07:13.132
no names uh you like

01:07:13.152 --> 01:07:15.413
californian guy somebody

01:07:15.853 --> 01:07:17.833
yeah yeah maybe maybe oh

01:07:17.853 --> 01:07:18.472
maybe because it's not

01:07:18.512 --> 01:07:20.554
presidential maybe that was

01:07:20.614 --> 01:07:21.233
that maybe that's what it

01:07:21.273 --> 01:07:22.514
was this is presidential

01:07:22.534 --> 01:07:24.094
candidate to accept crypto I mean

01:07:25.706 --> 01:07:27.027
yeah I mean giving bitcoin

01:07:27.047 --> 01:07:28.188
to trump is a really weird

01:07:28.228 --> 01:07:29.168
flex because you're like

01:07:29.329 --> 01:07:31.769
okay let's give my

01:07:31.849 --> 01:07:33.891
libertarian money internet

01:07:33.931 --> 01:07:35.592
money to an authoritarian

01:07:35.652 --> 01:07:38.235
who might then curtail my civil rights

01:07:39.108 --> 01:07:39.608
Yeah, I mean,

01:07:39.628 --> 01:07:42.773
this is just purely... I mean,

01:07:43.172 --> 01:07:44.735
this is plain to the audience.

01:07:46.016 --> 01:07:46.898
He doesn't give a fuck about this.

01:07:47.217 --> 01:07:47.739
Also,

01:07:47.818 --> 01:07:49.960
it's just like that Bitcoin is going

01:07:50.041 --> 01:07:52.023
straight into his private wallet, right?

01:07:52.164 --> 01:07:53.885
Probably secured by... The

01:07:54.507 --> 01:07:55.648
password's probably like...

01:07:56.684 --> 01:07:57.684
stormy daniels with the

01:07:57.724 --> 01:07:59.025
capital with a with a

01:07:59.164 --> 01:08:01.565
dollar sign s at the

01:08:01.606 --> 01:08:03.746
beginning and end yeah well

01:08:03.766 --> 01:08:05.226
if there's any uh each one

01:08:05.246 --> 01:08:06.226
of the dollar signs

01:08:06.327 --> 01:08:07.847
represents hush money can

01:08:07.887 --> 01:08:09.168
you say that now he goes

01:08:09.307 --> 01:08:11.568
yeah cool any uh any pack

01:08:11.628 --> 01:08:13.710
associated to uh they're

01:08:13.789 --> 01:08:15.130
watching these wallet these

01:08:15.170 --> 01:08:17.850
wallet values um so early

01:08:17.871 --> 01:08:19.412
tuesday trump us uh to

01:08:19.431 --> 01:08:20.692
accept crypto I said met

01:08:20.731 --> 01:08:21.712
with executives nasdaq

01:08:21.792 --> 01:08:22.832
listed bitcoin mining from

01:08:22.893 --> 01:08:24.113
clean spark and riot

01:08:24.132 --> 01:08:25.354
platforms I don't know those

01:08:26.631 --> 01:08:28.052
And the former president

01:08:28.073 --> 01:08:29.453
reportedly told attendees

01:08:29.953 --> 01:08:30.912
in an event that miners

01:08:30.932 --> 01:08:32.194
helped stabilize the grid's

01:08:32.274 --> 01:08:32.993
energy supply.

01:08:34.514 --> 01:08:35.654
I think there was a comment

01:08:35.675 --> 01:08:37.734
in here about running those.

01:08:38.716 --> 01:08:41.095
Actually, I don't even say what it was.

01:08:41.136 --> 01:08:41.716
But I thought it was

01:08:41.737 --> 01:08:42.377
something about running

01:08:42.396 --> 01:08:43.377
those in specific hours of

01:08:43.396 --> 01:08:44.176
the day or trying to

01:08:44.636 --> 01:08:45.637
flatten energy use or

01:08:45.698 --> 01:08:46.478
something else like that.

01:08:48.278 --> 01:08:50.078
That, like...

01:08:51.756 --> 01:08:52.056
Whatever.

01:08:52.256 --> 01:08:52.556
Who knows?

01:08:52.877 --> 01:08:53.939
Energy use goes down at night.

01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:55.720
We're going to turn these

01:08:55.761 --> 01:08:56.881
fucking things on so we

01:08:57.101 --> 01:08:58.342
don't need to ramp up and

01:08:58.403 --> 01:09:00.265
ramp down specific types of

01:09:00.324 --> 01:09:00.966
energy sources.

01:09:01.006 --> 01:09:02.186
We use a flat energy amount

01:09:02.226 --> 01:09:04.109
and we fill the gap by...

01:09:05.014 --> 01:09:05.274
you know,

01:09:05.394 --> 01:09:08.037
by creating useless Bitcoin here

01:09:08.238 --> 01:09:08.858
because we only have a

01:09:08.877 --> 01:09:10.038
couple more years to be able to do that.

01:09:10.579 --> 01:09:11.761
And that's a good use for electricity.

01:09:11.780 --> 01:09:13.162
I was going to say, like,

01:09:13.182 --> 01:09:14.503
I don't know if it's the

01:09:14.524 --> 01:09:16.326
same in the States, but here in the UK,

01:09:16.345 --> 01:09:17.407
they're like, oh, no.

01:09:17.948 --> 01:09:18.268
Remember,

01:09:18.287 --> 01:09:20.250
if you run your washing machine at night,

01:09:20.371 --> 01:09:21.190
it's slightly cheaper.

01:09:21.230 --> 01:09:21.372
Yeah.

01:09:22.372 --> 01:09:23.212
Right, yeah, exactly.

01:09:23.613 --> 01:09:26.534
Which it is here.

01:09:27.335 --> 01:09:27.814
Now you can't.

01:09:28.195 --> 01:09:29.395
You can't charge cars at night.

01:09:29.555 --> 01:09:30.976
You can't do any of the

01:09:31.117 --> 01:09:32.177
useful things at night.

01:09:32.417 --> 01:09:33.599
They're going to one fucking

01:09:33.639 --> 01:09:34.599
dipshit in a 12x10 shed.

01:09:38.765 --> 01:09:41.707
with with a form with a four

01:09:41.728 --> 01:09:42.668
inch power line going to

01:09:42.748 --> 01:09:44.130
the fucking thing let's say

01:09:44.170 --> 01:09:45.610
like it's really it's

01:09:45.690 --> 01:09:46.430
really interesting that

01:09:46.451 --> 01:09:47.252
they obviously he's like

01:09:47.292 --> 01:09:48.532
freaking out about cbdc

01:09:48.612 --> 01:09:49.773
it's like like I can tell

01:09:49.832 --> 01:09:51.673
you like obviously the

01:09:51.914 --> 01:09:52.675
people actually implement

01:09:52.694 --> 01:09:54.896
the cbdc are gonna fuck it

01:09:55.016 --> 01:09:56.117
up like there's that's kind

01:09:56.136 --> 01:09:58.179
of a given right but there

01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:00.560
are a lot of people a lot

01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:01.621
more smart than donald

01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:03.141
trump on literally in

01:10:03.162 --> 01:10:04.643
literally every jurisdiction

01:10:05.494 --> 01:10:07.355
who are thinking very hard about this.

01:10:07.456 --> 01:10:08.617
And there is a lot of good

01:10:08.676 --> 01:10:09.957
academic research and a lot

01:10:09.997 --> 01:10:11.319
of clever people working on this.

01:10:11.338 --> 01:10:12.020
Yeah.

01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:13.860
Like everything in life is

01:10:13.961 --> 01:10:15.481
always a compromise between

01:10:15.521 --> 01:10:16.983
what's good and what's possible.

01:10:17.002 --> 01:10:17.302
Right.

01:10:17.382 --> 01:10:20.005
And it's going to be shit as

01:10:20.045 --> 01:10:21.706
a result because the

01:10:21.725 --> 01:10:23.067
compromise from something to good,

01:10:23.127 --> 01:10:23.768
that's something that's

01:10:23.807 --> 01:10:24.868
possible always results in

01:10:24.889 --> 01:10:25.889
something that's a bit shit.

01:10:26.210 --> 01:10:27.990
Where everybody's disappointed.

01:10:28.762 --> 01:10:29.162
Exactly.

01:10:29.363 --> 01:10:31.024
But there will be a lot of grey in this.

01:10:31.164 --> 01:10:33.605
And nobody's going to get rid of cash.

01:10:33.645 --> 01:10:39.529
That's not... You just... I don't know.

01:10:39.871 --> 01:10:43.273
There's a conspiracy website.

01:10:43.493 --> 01:10:44.594
A kind of conspiracy website

01:10:44.613 --> 01:10:45.595
for this stuff in the UK

01:10:45.635 --> 01:10:46.135
where it's like...

01:10:48.216 --> 01:10:49.777
It's like the Institute for

01:10:49.856 --> 01:10:50.716
Cash or something.

01:10:50.756 --> 01:10:51.858
I can't remember what it is now,

01:10:51.898 --> 01:10:53.537
like the Campaign for Cash or something.

01:10:54.037 --> 01:10:54.979
It's like a lobby group

01:10:55.418 --> 01:10:56.238
where you know when you

01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:57.460
find a lobby group and they

01:10:57.859 --> 01:10:59.060
basically believe all of

01:10:59.100 --> 01:10:59.841
the things you do,

01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:03.601
but the way they talk about

01:11:03.681 --> 01:11:06.302
it and the friends they make, you're like,

01:11:07.463 --> 01:11:08.144
we can never...

01:11:10.511 --> 01:11:11.753
we are not the same you and

01:11:11.914 --> 01:11:13.398
I even though we kind of

01:11:13.417 --> 01:11:14.479
believe the same we're kind

01:11:14.500 --> 01:11:15.261
of saying the same thing

01:11:15.301 --> 01:11:16.162
but we're not saying the

01:11:16.182 --> 01:11:18.106
same thing is really funny

01:11:18.167 --> 01:11:19.710
like they they I got I got

01:11:19.750 --> 01:11:21.131
handed like some literature

01:11:21.877 --> 01:11:23.979
when I was buying a falafel

01:11:24.340 --> 01:11:27.063
near to where my PhD is, right?

01:11:27.462 --> 01:11:29.265
And so I literally said to my supervisor,

01:11:29.345 --> 01:11:31.426
I was like, yo, have you seen this?

01:11:31.887 --> 01:11:32.868
And I was like,

01:11:32.929 --> 01:11:34.149
it's really sad because a

01:11:34.631 --> 01:11:35.912
lot of the things they say,

01:11:35.931 --> 01:11:37.052
and he literally finished my sentence,

01:11:37.092 --> 01:11:38.175
he was like, yes,

01:11:38.335 --> 01:11:40.537
in some ways their aims are similar,

01:11:41.217 --> 01:11:44.081
but their methods and tone, not quite.

01:11:44.895 --> 01:11:46.396
not quite they're not people

01:11:46.457 --> 01:11:47.278
you want to be seen

01:11:47.337 --> 01:11:48.378
standing next to and I was

01:11:48.418 --> 01:11:51.181
like exactly that's like

01:11:51.221 --> 01:11:52.743
that bingo that's pretty

01:11:52.783 --> 01:11:53.623
much that's pretty much

01:11:53.645 --> 01:11:54.786
there and what he's like

01:11:54.826 --> 01:11:56.688
still uh you know a lot of

01:11:56.728 --> 01:11:57.729
people who sign up to that

01:11:57.889 --> 01:12:00.671
uh to to to that um decide

01:12:00.712 --> 01:12:02.094
to give uh discounts for

01:12:02.173 --> 01:12:03.375
using cash which is great

01:12:03.395 --> 01:12:04.636
if you use cash I was like

01:12:04.817 --> 01:12:06.899
oh yeah my lunch was cheaper

01:12:08.856 --> 01:12:10.618
As long as they figure out a

01:12:10.658 --> 01:12:11.778
way to increase fees,

01:12:12.779 --> 01:12:13.458
make sure they can track

01:12:13.498 --> 01:12:16.539
every transaction and KYC everybody.

01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:17.940
Yeah.

01:12:18.020 --> 01:12:18.201
I mean,

01:12:18.220 --> 01:12:19.480
that's the big problem I think with

01:12:19.501 --> 01:12:20.582
the CBDCs, right?

01:12:20.622 --> 01:12:21.282
Is that a lot of the

01:12:21.322 --> 01:12:22.483
technology partners are the

01:12:22.523 --> 01:12:24.363
existing banks or Visa and MasterCard,

01:12:24.403 --> 01:12:24.543
right?

01:12:24.564 --> 01:12:25.743
At which point it's not

01:12:25.783 --> 01:12:26.764
going to change anything.

01:12:26.804 --> 01:12:28.664
Whereas like most of the

01:12:28.704 --> 01:12:29.945
academics and computer science,

01:12:30.365 --> 01:12:31.386
sciences I've talked to who

01:12:31.426 --> 01:12:32.747
work anywhere near this go like,

01:12:34.542 --> 01:12:35.684
original there were one of

01:12:35.703 --> 01:12:36.243
some of the original

01:12:36.264 --> 01:12:37.425
designs for packet transfer

01:12:37.444 --> 01:12:38.886
on the internet were oh

01:12:39.126 --> 01:12:42.046
well you you pre-measure

01:12:42.228 --> 01:12:43.587
essentially all the all the

01:12:43.768 --> 01:12:44.988
jumps you need to take and

01:12:45.009 --> 01:12:46.210
then you charge for them

01:12:47.170 --> 01:12:48.171
and and that's how that's

01:12:48.190 --> 01:12:49.231
how telecommunications is

01:12:49.271 --> 01:12:50.431
going to work it's just

01:12:50.452 --> 01:12:51.052
going to be a massive

01:12:51.092 --> 01:12:52.172
escrow system if you have

01:12:52.193 --> 01:12:52.993
to pay for all of the

01:12:53.014 --> 01:12:54.614
packets and then other

01:12:54.654 --> 01:12:55.935
people were like well

01:12:56.315 --> 01:12:57.055
actually I mean what if we

01:12:57.076 --> 01:12:58.896
just lay the cable put in

01:12:58.917 --> 01:13:00.738
the switches and then

01:13:00.898 --> 01:13:02.238
connect everything up and

01:13:02.259 --> 01:13:03.479
then people pay each other

01:13:04.328 --> 01:13:05.630
But we transfer each other's

01:13:05.649 --> 01:13:09.233
packets because the

01:13:09.273 --> 01:13:10.594
marginal cost is zero.

01:13:10.613 --> 01:13:11.515
Yeah.

01:13:12.296 --> 01:13:13.197
And then that's what happened.

01:13:13.277 --> 01:13:14.957
And that's why stuff actually works.

01:13:14.997 --> 01:13:16.359
And you're like, oh yeah,

01:13:16.399 --> 01:13:17.560
that's what payment should be like.

01:13:17.780 --> 01:13:19.042
It should just be marginal cost should be.

01:13:19.561 --> 01:13:20.722
And as soon as you go like, okay,

01:13:21.623 --> 01:13:22.425
the marginal cost of a

01:13:22.465 --> 01:13:23.244
payment should be zero.

01:13:24.405 --> 01:13:24.947
And in addition,

01:13:24.966 --> 01:13:25.948
I would love to have some privacy,

01:13:25.988 --> 01:13:27.208
but first of all,

01:13:27.229 --> 01:13:28.088
let's just go with marginal

01:13:28.109 --> 01:13:29.090
cost of payment should be zero.

01:13:29.451 --> 01:13:29.791
You're like,

01:13:31.168 --> 01:13:31.429
Oh, yeah,

01:13:31.488 --> 01:13:32.750
it's literally completely

01:13:32.970 --> 01:13:34.570
economically opposed to the

01:13:34.631 --> 01:13:36.051
entire principle of

01:13:36.332 --> 01:13:37.853
cryptocurrencies they are right now.

01:13:39.274 --> 01:13:40.914
Like, it literally can't work.

01:13:44.277 --> 01:13:45.297
Like, zero fee payments.

01:13:45.717 --> 01:13:46.939
There's just so many problems with that.

01:13:46.979 --> 01:13:49.820
Proof of stake and DDoS and blah, blah,

01:13:49.841 --> 01:13:50.480
blah.

01:13:51.322 --> 01:13:52.323
Yeah, whatever.

01:13:52.422 --> 01:13:52.682
Anyway,

01:13:52.703 --> 01:13:54.423
should we go to the next news item?

01:13:55.024 --> 01:13:59.287
Yeah, the next one is... Let me read it.

01:14:00.247 --> 01:14:00.667
Enramers.

01:14:02.533 --> 01:14:02.833
Burbage.

01:14:03.515 --> 01:14:03.975
TimeWave.

01:14:04.215 --> 01:14:04.756
I didn't really know

01:14:04.815 --> 01:14:06.037
TimeWave Labs before this

01:14:06.457 --> 01:14:07.438
actual piece of news here.

01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:14.644
But TimeWave Labs secures

01:14:14.663 --> 01:14:18.065
the first DAO-to-DAO multi-sig-less,

01:14:18.086 --> 01:14:19.027
I don't think that's a word,

01:14:21.309 --> 01:14:22.729
proof of liquidity deal

01:14:22.989 --> 01:14:24.390
with Stars and Neutron,

01:14:24.832 --> 01:14:27.362
allocating $400,000

01:14:27.362 --> 01:14:29.563
in liquidity to Astroport

01:14:30.222 --> 01:14:31.762
controlled via ICAs and

01:14:31.922 --> 01:14:33.222
each chain's governance.

01:14:33.323 --> 01:14:34.524
That was a fucking mouthful.

01:14:36.043 --> 01:14:37.703
The actual story here is what TimeWave,

01:14:37.724 --> 01:14:39.805
I'll put a link to the tweet.

01:14:39.904 --> 01:14:41.324
And actually I was talking

01:14:41.364 --> 01:14:42.284
to somebody we know at

01:14:42.345 --> 01:14:43.525
Astroport about this as well.

01:14:44.225 --> 01:14:45.126
So the first two blockchains

01:14:45.145 --> 01:14:46.246
to lend liquidity to each

01:14:46.305 --> 01:14:47.266
other without ever needing

01:14:47.306 --> 01:14:48.466
a multi-sig to mediate.

01:14:48.926 --> 01:14:50.306
There's now $400,000 more

01:14:50.367 --> 01:14:51.488
liquidity for the Neutron

01:14:51.528 --> 01:14:53.108
Stars pair on Astroport.

01:14:54.167 --> 01:14:55.069
So Stargaze and Neutron

01:14:55.368 --> 01:14:56.349
contribute equal amounts of

01:14:56.448 --> 01:14:58.050
USD in terms of native tokens,

01:14:58.069 --> 01:15:00.970
which was 287,000 Neutron

01:15:01.070 --> 01:15:03.313
and 10.9 million stars.

01:15:03.552 --> 01:15:06.573
There's our stars valuation.

01:15:06.634 --> 01:15:07.755
The resulting LP tokens are

01:15:07.795 --> 01:15:08.694
now owned and controlled by

01:15:08.715 --> 01:15:09.975
the Stargaze and Neutron communities.

01:15:10.975 --> 01:15:11.976
Communities should either

01:15:12.016 --> 01:15:13.457
community wish to withdraw their assets.

01:15:13.938 --> 01:15:14.938
They may do so at any time

01:15:14.978 --> 01:15:16.298
by passing a governance proposal,

01:15:16.439 --> 01:15:17.259
ordering the withdrawal.

01:15:17.760 --> 01:15:18.619
And upon withdrawal,

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:20.180
the resulting stars will go

01:15:20.201 --> 01:15:20.841
to Stargaze and the

01:15:20.860 --> 01:15:22.181
resulting Neutron will go to Neutron.

01:15:22.862 --> 01:15:23.643
Covenants have been used in

01:15:23.682 --> 01:15:25.163
the past to migrate

01:15:25.224 --> 01:15:26.326
protocol to protocol deal

01:15:26.865 --> 01:15:28.207
off of multisig into a

01:15:28.268 --> 01:15:29.047
trustless solution.

01:15:29.448 --> 01:15:29.988
Going forward,

01:15:30.009 --> 01:15:30.850
protocols do not need

01:15:30.909 --> 01:15:32.332
multisigs as an interim step.

01:15:32.671 --> 01:15:33.653
They can go straight to

01:15:33.733 --> 01:15:35.295
using covenants as for

01:15:35.335 --> 01:15:36.836
shared liquidity deals,

01:15:38.136 --> 01:15:38.917
which is pretty cool.

01:15:38.978 --> 01:15:39.698
I guess Neutron is just

01:15:39.779 --> 01:15:41.421
holding the liquidity

01:15:41.461 --> 01:15:42.220
associated to those.

01:15:43.042 --> 01:15:44.203
They're not really involved

01:15:44.283 --> 01:15:45.284
in that actual contract, right?

01:15:45.324 --> 01:15:46.326
But they're just holding those.

01:15:47.587 --> 01:15:51.155
So what's the mechanism here?

01:15:51.577 --> 01:15:52.658
It all goes to a smart

01:15:52.698 --> 01:15:53.761
contract to Neutron.

01:15:53.782 --> 01:15:55.947
Neutron then ICAs it?

01:15:56.908 --> 01:15:57.048
Yeah.

01:15:57.069 --> 01:15:57.469
So I asked,

01:15:57.609 --> 01:15:59.770
I asked my contact at Astroport.

01:15:59.789 --> 01:16:00.350
We did a bunch of those.

01:16:00.390 --> 01:16:02.211
I'm like, I'm like, can you ELI five this?

01:16:02.470 --> 01:16:03.671
Like, cause I'm a fucking moron.

01:16:03.791 --> 01:16:03.951
Right.

01:16:04.650 --> 01:16:05.212
And he said,

01:16:05.231 --> 01:16:06.692
so time wave has contracts

01:16:06.731 --> 01:16:07.452
that allows for two

01:16:07.492 --> 01:16:08.672
protocols to make proof of

01:16:08.733 --> 01:16:09.493
liquidity deals.

01:16:10.052 --> 01:16:11.012
Stargates provides stars.

01:16:11.134 --> 01:16:12.173
Neutron provides Neutron.

01:16:12.734 --> 01:16:13.634
This is why it's trustless.

01:16:13.673 --> 01:16:14.795
The contract is set up with

01:16:14.835 --> 01:16:16.875
some variables and that is about it.

01:16:17.416 --> 01:16:18.256
Like what does Astro have to

01:16:18.275 --> 01:16:18.555
do with these?

01:16:18.576 --> 01:16:18.695
Like,

01:16:19.234 --> 01:16:20.775
They provide the liquidity on Astroport.

01:16:21.036 --> 01:16:22.395
So we just get that TBL,

01:16:23.817 --> 01:16:24.577
but they did nothing.

01:16:24.676 --> 01:16:25.796
So it's just basically they

01:16:25.817 --> 01:16:27.257
have the PCL pool for them

01:16:27.797 --> 01:16:28.358
is really all that's

01:16:28.377 --> 01:16:29.038
happening within there.

01:16:29.559 --> 01:16:30.998
So I guess it's the contract

01:16:31.298 --> 01:16:32.239
importance or the,

01:16:32.899 --> 01:16:33.640
I guess it's the structure

01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:34.841
of the contract that's new

01:16:34.881 --> 01:16:36.121
here associated to that and

01:16:36.140 --> 01:16:36.780
kind of getting away from

01:16:37.121 --> 01:16:38.542
having a multi-sig that's

01:16:38.582 --> 01:16:39.181
associated to that.

01:16:41.363 --> 01:16:41.662
Okay.

01:16:41.802 --> 01:16:42.122
Yeah.

01:16:42.182 --> 01:16:43.384
So it's, it's, it's,

01:16:45.409 --> 01:16:46.692
It's a different abstraction.

01:16:47.131 --> 01:16:48.514
It's the same thing, but it's different.

01:16:48.894 --> 01:16:49.274
It's just,

01:16:49.635 --> 01:16:51.377
it's just hooked into bare

01:16:51.457 --> 01:16:53.600
except to presumably a golf

01:16:53.640 --> 01:16:54.981
proposal result.

01:16:55.523 --> 01:16:57.164
Yeah.

01:16:57.185 --> 01:16:58.626
So the contract with the callback.

01:16:59.537 --> 01:17:00.817
for a GovProposal result.

01:17:01.256 --> 01:17:01.636
I guess so.

01:17:01.697 --> 01:17:02.778
And only with, obviously,

01:17:02.938 --> 01:17:04.637
I guess between DAOs, right?

01:17:04.778 --> 01:17:06.417
So I'll send a link.

01:17:06.578 --> 01:17:07.899
But how do you know it's a DAO?

01:17:07.958 --> 01:17:09.019
Like, it would just be an address.

01:17:09.378 --> 01:17:09.819
Yeah, you're right.

01:17:10.179 --> 01:17:10.498
Fair enough.

01:17:10.738 --> 01:17:11.019
Fair enough.

01:17:11.259 --> 01:17:12.220
Between two addresses, right?

01:17:12.260 --> 01:17:13.500
I guess it's up to the

01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:14.439
chains to be able to find

01:17:14.479 --> 01:17:16.140
how that wants to be able to happen.

01:17:16.220 --> 01:17:16.780
Yeah, it's just,

01:17:16.820 --> 01:17:18.060
that must be what they said,

01:17:18.100 --> 01:17:19.060
where it's just basically

01:17:19.161 --> 01:17:20.381
configure a couple of variables.

01:17:20.440 --> 01:17:23.202
Presumably the variables are DAO1, DAO2.

01:17:23.902 --> 01:17:24.082
Right.

01:17:26.643 --> 01:17:28.422
Or something similar to that.

01:17:28.918 --> 01:17:31.324
Yeah, so this is Max Einhorn, Udit Vera,

01:17:31.626 --> 01:17:33.490
and Sam Hart.

01:17:35.114 --> 01:17:36.960
ICF, let's see, so Max,

01:17:38.412 --> 01:17:39.092
Led Design Interchain

01:17:39.113 --> 01:17:42.836
Allocator and was in consulting.

01:17:42.876 --> 01:17:44.658
And then Udit was Cosmos

01:17:44.677 --> 01:17:46.219
Hubs Replicate Security Test Nets.

01:17:47.180 --> 01:17:47.960
Co-founder at Hypha.

01:17:48.060 --> 01:17:49.921
And Sam was a Led Cosmos

01:17:49.942 --> 01:17:51.323
Stack product at the ICF.

01:17:51.963 --> 01:17:52.944
And a bunch of other folks as well.

01:17:52.965 --> 01:17:54.445
I haven't heard of Timely before.

01:17:54.466 --> 01:17:54.985
That's pretty cool.

01:17:55.707 --> 01:17:56.648
So first product is Covenant

01:17:56.667 --> 01:17:57.368
System Rebalancer.

01:17:57.387 --> 01:17:58.569
Covenant's enabled two DAOs

01:17:58.588 --> 01:17:59.449
to align their incentives

01:17:59.470 --> 01:18:00.430
by swapping tokens and

01:18:00.451 --> 01:18:01.652
providing liquidity for each other.

01:18:02.145 --> 01:18:02.945
The rebalancer is a

01:18:02.966 --> 01:18:03.725
portfolio management

01:18:03.746 --> 01:18:04.506
solution specifically

01:18:04.527 --> 01:18:05.307
designed for DAOs that

01:18:05.347 --> 01:18:06.127
enables them to set a

01:18:06.148 --> 01:18:06.929
desired portfolio

01:18:06.969 --> 01:18:08.990
composition and maintain

01:18:09.030 --> 01:18:09.911
portfolio over time.

01:18:11.733 --> 01:18:15.976
I think possibly the only

01:18:16.157 --> 01:18:19.899
use case I actually think might arguably,

01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:21.600
that there might be for

01:18:21.801 --> 01:18:23.922
non-private tokens on

01:18:23.943 --> 01:18:25.503
blockchains is actually DAOs.

01:18:26.045 --> 01:18:28.327
But even then, you're kind of like,

01:18:29.226 --> 01:18:30.408
should only really be

01:18:30.568 --> 01:18:31.729
visible to people who are

01:18:31.748 --> 01:18:33.850
members of the DAO, I think.

01:18:33.869 --> 01:18:35.150
They're looking for a senior

01:18:35.190 --> 01:18:35.752
Rust engineer.

01:18:35.771 --> 01:18:38.533
A super senior.

01:18:38.554 --> 01:18:42.155
I'll be blunt.

01:18:42.296 --> 01:18:42.817
They can't.

01:18:45.417 --> 01:18:46.399
I said that to somebody else today.

01:18:46.418 --> 01:18:50.542
While we're on the subject

01:18:50.582 --> 01:18:51.823
of things that do not scale,

01:18:52.162 --> 01:18:53.583
my time bashing my head

01:18:53.644 --> 01:18:55.506
against some little bug in

01:18:55.546 --> 01:18:56.725
a Rust text editor when

01:18:56.765 --> 01:18:57.827
there's loads of other

01:18:57.867 --> 01:18:58.828
things to be doing.

01:19:01.015 --> 01:19:01.715
But that's, that's, I mean,

01:19:01.734 --> 01:19:03.034
that's the problem with smart contracts,

01:19:03.274 --> 01:19:03.595
isn't it?

01:19:03.654 --> 01:19:04.376
Is that you can,

01:19:05.676 --> 01:19:06.735
you can get somebody else

01:19:06.775 --> 01:19:07.815
to pay you to write smart

01:19:07.855 --> 01:19:09.136
contracts and you're like, cool,

01:19:09.256 --> 01:19:10.077
you can make some good money,

01:19:10.117 --> 01:19:13.617
but it's not like, um, uh,

01:19:13.697 --> 01:19:15.217
you don't get a piece of the pie, right?

01:19:15.238 --> 01:19:18.358
Uh, you get tape and scraps or,

01:19:18.677 --> 01:19:20.038
or you can launch your own projects,

01:19:20.158 --> 01:19:22.519
but then you either become

01:19:22.958 --> 01:19:24.878
go straight to the beach, pass,

01:19:24.918 --> 01:19:26.380
go get $200, go directly to the beach.

01:19:28.604 --> 01:19:30.407
Or you go directly to your

01:19:30.426 --> 01:19:31.708
new shift manager at

01:19:31.788 --> 01:19:34.652
McDonald's job when you're a project.

01:19:35.773 --> 01:19:37.614
No different than any other career, right?

01:19:38.055 --> 01:19:39.216
Well, yeah, this is just it.

01:19:39.277 --> 01:19:40.958
I've been made redundant before.

01:19:41.198 --> 01:19:42.460
You could go from being a

01:19:42.520 --> 01:19:43.582
legend to a zero.

01:19:44.261 --> 01:19:44.863
Yeah,

01:19:45.363 --> 01:19:46.604
you can work at a bank or you could

01:19:46.664 --> 01:19:47.125
be a bank.

01:19:47.485 --> 01:19:49.268
But it takes a lot of

01:19:49.328 --> 01:19:50.288
fucking luck to be a bank.

01:19:52.752 --> 01:19:53.474
Speaking of DAOs,

01:19:53.533 --> 01:19:55.435
DAODAO continues its growth and adoption,

01:19:55.815 --> 01:19:57.478
with OmniFlix being the

01:19:57.497 --> 01:19:58.538
latest chain to adopt the

01:19:58.559 --> 01:19:59.779
platform after a governance

01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:01.421
proposal passed to secure

01:20:01.481 --> 01:20:03.162
funding for Flix-specific

01:20:03.182 --> 01:20:04.864
features and to fund the

01:20:04.984 --> 01:20:06.185
infra for the deployment.

01:20:06.947 --> 01:20:08.167
I would have taken the infra

01:20:08.188 --> 01:20:08.748
for the deployment.

01:20:08.769 --> 01:20:09.048
What the hell?

01:20:10.210 --> 01:20:11.610
um that's cool I i wonder if

01:20:11.650 --> 01:20:12.791
that's I wonder if that is

01:20:12.810 --> 01:20:14.532
because because dow dow

01:20:14.912 --> 01:20:16.472
went open source but they

01:20:16.552 --> 01:20:18.154
also still run it as a

01:20:18.274 --> 01:20:20.194
service right I think

01:20:20.213 --> 01:20:21.335
that's what they're doing

01:20:21.494 --> 01:20:22.895
yeah I think it's basically

01:20:22.916 --> 01:20:23.855
you get support from the

01:20:23.895 --> 01:20:26.837
developers right if you if

01:20:26.856 --> 01:20:28.158
you quote unquote subscribe

01:20:28.637 --> 01:20:29.578
but otherwise it's just out

01:20:29.597 --> 01:20:33.279
there yeah I don't know who who

01:20:35.782 --> 01:20:37.222
Well, because Zeke's long gone.

01:20:37.363 --> 01:20:38.243
Presumably there are other

01:20:38.264 --> 01:20:39.944
developers on Doudat as well,

01:20:40.364 --> 01:20:41.506
on the back end, I guess.

01:20:42.185 --> 01:20:44.528
Yeah, there's a few, right?

01:20:46.069 --> 01:20:47.829
There were a few in the tail

01:20:47.890 --> 01:20:48.650
end of the bull,

01:20:49.051 --> 01:20:51.471
but... You would know more than me.

01:20:52.412 --> 01:20:53.073
Yeah, probably.

01:20:53.314 --> 01:20:54.293
I should probably go jump in

01:20:54.314 --> 01:20:55.534
the Discord at some point and say, hey,

01:20:56.515 --> 01:20:58.016
it's been a while.

01:20:58.037 --> 01:20:58.716
So does Flix...

01:21:02.881 --> 01:21:03.323
For some reason,

01:21:03.363 --> 01:21:05.734
I didn't realize Flix had Cosmoism.

01:21:05.753 --> 01:21:06.277
I thought it didn't.

01:21:07.282 --> 01:21:07.862
I think it does.

01:21:08.243 --> 01:21:09.082
Yeah, I thought it does.

01:21:09.962 --> 01:21:10.323
Oh, it does?

01:21:10.863 --> 01:21:11.224
I think so.

01:21:12.304 --> 01:21:12.604
Oh, okay.

01:21:12.625 --> 01:21:13.064
I believe so.

01:21:13.625 --> 01:21:13.805
Yeah.

01:21:14.145 --> 01:21:14.725
Because I thought they were

01:21:14.746 --> 01:21:18.546
going to use the NFT module, which,

01:21:18.567 --> 01:21:20.908
I don't know, did that ever even happen?

01:21:20.929 --> 01:21:23.210
Or was that one of those other hub meme,

01:21:24.130 --> 01:21:26.211
Cosmos hub meme functions,

01:21:26.690 --> 01:21:28.891
features that never... Fuck,

01:21:28.931 --> 01:21:29.472
I don't remember.

01:21:29.493 --> 01:21:29.573
Yeah.

01:21:30.792 --> 01:21:31.673
That was a long time ago

01:21:31.694 --> 01:21:32.573
that we talked about that, right?

01:21:33.135 --> 01:21:33.914
That was like when...

01:21:35.668 --> 01:21:36.909
those guys were on on game

01:21:36.949 --> 01:21:37.470
of notes right that was

01:21:37.510 --> 01:21:38.710
probably like two years ago

01:21:39.470 --> 01:21:40.211
yeah it's another way

01:21:40.270 --> 01:21:41.070
another example of a

01:21:41.110 --> 01:21:42.291
feature that that took

01:21:42.331 --> 01:21:43.631
forever to implement in

01:21:43.692 --> 01:21:44.912
ghost I'm not sure whether

01:21:45.391 --> 01:21:46.533
anybody ever did or people

01:21:46.552 --> 01:21:48.033
just implemented cosmoism

01:21:48.052 --> 01:21:49.974
and went off like nfts nfts

01:21:50.033 --> 01:21:51.255
and calls my name cosmo

01:21:51.274 --> 01:21:54.456
don't get what you know if

01:21:54.475 --> 01:21:55.315
somebody implements it

01:21:55.395 --> 01:21:56.275
eight times as quickly

01:21:56.315 --> 01:21:57.096
you're just like ah they've

01:21:57.136 --> 01:21:57.957
already done the work let's

01:21:57.997 --> 01:21:58.997
just copy paste it that's

01:21:59.778 --> 01:22:00.637
it's the cosmos way

01:22:03.963 --> 01:22:05.284
A neat answer also to

01:22:05.364 --> 01:22:07.067
anybody who is like the few

01:22:07.127 --> 01:22:08.887
closed source repos that we still have.

01:22:08.948 --> 01:22:10.489
People are like, oh, open sourced it.

01:22:10.569 --> 01:22:13.612
It's like, yeah,

01:22:13.631 --> 01:22:15.333
what we've open sourced is open sourced.

01:22:15.373 --> 01:22:16.175
And what we haven't open

01:22:16.194 --> 01:22:17.716
sourced is not open sourced.

01:22:17.996 --> 01:22:19.556
And that's pretty cool.

01:22:19.657 --> 01:22:21.219
I'm glad that this is expanding.

01:22:22.154 --> 01:22:23.953
I think it's a great tool set.

01:22:24.614 --> 01:22:27.095
I hope it expands outside the cosmos, too.

01:22:27.654 --> 01:22:27.994
I mean,

01:22:28.135 --> 01:22:29.796
you see with DAO tooling and other

01:22:30.275 --> 01:22:32.355
ecosystems that it's pretty shit.

01:22:32.475 --> 01:22:34.096
And you're like, catching up, though.

01:22:35.317 --> 01:22:36.657
Starting to see some cooler things.

01:22:37.297 --> 01:22:39.478
I do think that... It feels

01:22:39.518 --> 01:22:41.457
like DAO has been around

01:22:41.599 --> 01:22:43.319
for a couple of years now, right?

01:22:43.338 --> 01:22:44.319
It has been around for a couple of years.

01:22:44.338 --> 01:22:44.399
And

01:22:49.125 --> 01:22:50.826
it's taken a while to like

01:22:50.886 --> 01:22:51.725
I'm worried about a little

01:22:51.786 --> 01:22:54.346
first mover it's 24 man

01:22:54.386 --> 01:22:55.747
like data has existed for

01:22:55.806 --> 01:22:57.068
two and a half years right

01:22:57.087 --> 01:22:58.228
so there's a little first

01:22:58.247 --> 01:22:59.068
mover in here where like

01:22:59.148 --> 01:23:00.309
they they forged it and

01:23:00.349 --> 01:23:01.189
nobody else was building

01:23:01.208 --> 01:23:02.689
this but they didn't really

01:23:02.729 --> 01:23:03.649
expand well enough they

01:23:03.670 --> 01:23:04.210
didn't really take a

01:23:04.270 --> 01:23:05.490
foothold and enough chains

01:23:05.551 --> 01:23:06.310
and it's kind of limited

01:23:06.331 --> 01:23:07.211
within cosmos and then

01:23:07.251 --> 01:23:07.970
everybody looks at this and

01:23:07.990 --> 01:23:08.952
goes all right it's a good

01:23:08.992 --> 01:23:10.671
fucking idea let's go build

01:23:10.712 --> 01:23:13.273
this on other ecosystems

01:23:13.412 --> 01:23:15.274
and and next thing you know this is

01:23:16.755 --> 01:23:17.376
It's not gone,

01:23:17.416 --> 01:23:21.181
but it's... It would just be

01:23:21.221 --> 01:23:22.524
an Ethereum L2 and all the

01:23:22.564 --> 01:23:23.865
Ethereum boomers can just

01:23:23.945 --> 01:23:25.007
clap themselves on the back

01:23:25.108 --> 01:23:26.789
that Ethereum is the only

01:23:26.831 --> 01:23:28.412
place that anything happens.

01:23:28.712 --> 01:23:29.073
That's right.

01:23:29.595 --> 01:23:30.216
Maybe not first,

01:23:30.256 --> 01:23:31.356
but it eventually happens there.

01:23:32.384 --> 01:23:35.565
yep and it's like yeah that

01:23:36.127 --> 01:23:39.988
that argument sucks your

01:23:40.029 --> 01:23:44.632
argument is my god but um I

01:23:44.653 --> 01:23:46.554
know I've complained about

01:23:46.594 --> 01:23:48.034
before but that is the the

01:23:48.074 --> 01:23:49.155
number one thing that you

01:23:49.195 --> 01:23:49.956
really have to suffer

01:23:49.996 --> 01:23:51.216
through if you go to

01:23:51.256 --> 01:23:53.179
meetups in the uk is that's

01:23:53.198 --> 01:23:55.960
so so ethereum focused that

01:23:55.980 --> 01:23:56.581
you are just like

01:23:58.015 --> 01:23:58.935
Give me strength.

01:23:59.295 --> 01:24:01.076
After about 10 minutes, you're like,

01:24:01.216 --> 01:24:06.515
give me strength.

01:24:08.056 --> 01:24:08.417
Anyway.

01:24:08.436 --> 01:24:16.738
Do you even understand the Mars piece?

01:24:17.497 --> 01:24:18.097
I don't give a shit.

01:24:18.118 --> 01:24:22.918
Do you even understand it?

01:24:23.418 --> 01:24:24.279
I don't understand it.

01:24:24.338 --> 01:24:25.760
It's such a fucking circle steak.

01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:26.699
I don't even know...

01:24:28.996 --> 01:24:29.398
I don't know.

01:24:29.578 --> 01:24:29.940
Whatever.

01:24:30.181 --> 01:24:30.904
Two Million Osmo?

01:24:30.925 --> 01:24:31.668
I don't give a shit.

01:24:32.211 --> 01:24:32.391
Some...