WEBVTT

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Whatever the fuck we're

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going to talk about.

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Like a real kind of

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spontaneous energy when you

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get rocked by two of the panel.

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Yeah, pretty much.

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hello and welcome to game of

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nodes weekly podcast from

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some validated teams and

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not from others to be fair

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um one of the panel is not

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here today uh because of

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actually having to be up

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for a significant portion

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of the night I gather so

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I didn't have to be up

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during the night other than baby duty.

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So, uh, I feel like I don't,

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I don't really have a leg

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to stand on by criticizing that.

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Um, you serve,

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but also has quite a good excuse.

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So, uh, but no shaved,

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you shaved for this episode

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for those guys and they

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didn't show up and he,

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you are clean shaven.

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Like you're going into the corporate job.

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I'm incredibly disappointed.

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I'm getting ready for, uh,

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consensus uh this is my

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preparations for uh

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consensus so so you're

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shaving now two weeks out

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yeah so I've got a stubble

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instead of like yeah you

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know I i would I mean I was

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gonna shave today but I

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remember there was the

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podcast so uh we're we're a

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beardy boy um I'm very

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jealous about consensus it was yeah

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It was one of those classic

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things where I didn't think

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I was going to be able to do it.

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And then I was like, oh, no way.

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I think actually logistically,

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I think I can do it.

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And then as soon as I looked

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at it and talked it through, it was like,

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oh, no,

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there's actually like a whole

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bunch of stuff going on

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that I need to be here for, sadly.

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But maybe next year, maybe next year.

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Do you do it last year or

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did you just do East Denver last year?

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Just East Denver.

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It's far too far to go

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multiple times a year over

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to the other side of the planet.

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yeah fair enough I mean

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other side of the planet is

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kind of everywhere from

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australia though so I mean

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like you know well

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everywhere other than like

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thailand and china

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basically and most of the

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population's on my side so

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I don't know what the

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you're talking about most

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the population of what

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australia the planet

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Well, hang on.

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Which side are we talking about?

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Are we talking about the

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southern hemisphere?

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No, southern hemisphere,

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like the meridians.

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In my meridians, my time zone,

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plus or minus five,

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we've got a lot of people here.

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Yeah, okay.

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Yeah, fair.

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yeah so you know you might

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just just you know I get it

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your your side of the

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planet has like a bit of

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GDP going on but we've got

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people so you know yeah I

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was about to try and pull a

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kind of bait and switch

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brown guy move there and

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then I realized I'm the

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wrong type uh to be in this

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that that band of time

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zones so it doesn't even

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work can't even claim um

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Can't even claim diaspora

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points on that one.

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Um, so time zones, huh?

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So what are you looking

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forward to consensus?

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Um, I'm like,

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I genuinely am going to FOMO

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the shit out of it because, uh,

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I had psyched myself up for,

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for going and then was like, oh no,

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actually I can't go.

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Um, look,

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would it surprise you if I told you,

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I genuinely don't know what

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is going to be there.

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no what am I hang on let me

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let me let me refresh what

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am I excited about I'm

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excited about hooking up

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with the squad again for

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another year uh having some

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good times with with our

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validated brethren and uh

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you know in going to the

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consensus seeing what's new

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trying to uh connect up

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with people that's what

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it's all about at the conferences right

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It's more of the people.

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I didn't go there for the

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conference itself.

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I go there because that's

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where all the people are.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing,

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especially about big conferences,

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is that if you... What I learned,

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what I reminded myself of,

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because I did some last

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year for the first time in a few years,

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and what I was reminded of

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the really hard way is that

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if you are not prepared to be on it...

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um you're just going to get

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very very little out of it

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and the actual conference

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itself is like obviously a

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distraction like there's

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almost no point in the

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conference show floor um so

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yeah I i just remember like

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doing doing a couple and I

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was just super sleep

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deprived uh and I just I

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was just like what what

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what what how what how what and it was

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It was brutal.

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That's not going to work.

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You can't be like sleep deprived.

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Also when, especially like the first three,

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four months of having a small human,

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you're just like,

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like just like it was

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probably literally for good

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evolutionary reasons like

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100 of your brain power is

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just elsewhere you're just

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like is the human alive is

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the human alive is the

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human alive and people are

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just like yeah so we have

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this issue with our

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infrastructure the blah

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blah blah blah and you're

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like oh fucking spend some

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money on better boxes jesus

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christ it wasn't quite that

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bad it wasn't far off they were like

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maybe a couple of

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conversations where

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plausibly something could

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have come of it and

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literally just went like,

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you don't need our help.

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You just need to spend some money on X, Y,

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or Z. That's easy.

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And you're like, ah,

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just either lost there or

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gave away 15 grand worth of

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free consultancy.

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And I'm not sure which, but either way,

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we're not getting paid.

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That's,

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that's how you fix most of the problems.

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Just set fire to St.

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Benjamin's.

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Yeah,

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but you want people to set fire to

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some Benjamins in your direction.

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That's how consulting kind

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of works is my understanding.

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I'm not good at this business.

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Business, business.

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The business of business.

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So they set fire to

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Benjamins asking you how to

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set fire to more Benjamins.

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That was definitely, that's definitely,

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I don't know if you've ever had a con.

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I mean, the,

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the reps for like OVH and all

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those other kinds of

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providers are quite different,

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but the AWS reps are very like that.

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They're like, it's difficult.

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It seems like you're setting

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fire to a lot of Benjamins

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to run the service.

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How about if we go in one of

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our own AWS accredited

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architects to help you

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restructure that on a cost basis?

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And you're like,

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there's no way that's going

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to end up cheaper for me.

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Are you mad?

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On what planet is bringing

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another body and make things cheaper?

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Well, also like from our, the, you know,

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like we had the,

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like what we like to call

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the fun month where our

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bill did genuinely get out of control.

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Our bill got out of control

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to the extent that when AWS

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did come for their money,

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they called me up and asked

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to be put through to our

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accounts department.

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And I think that's when you

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know that you've screwed up badly.

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I think I said at the time,

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you know you screwed up

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badly when you get assigned

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an account manager with an

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actual dialing number by

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AWS who normally just do not give a shit.

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And you definitely know

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you're in trouble when any

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of your counterparties is like,

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can I speak to your finance department?

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Sorry,

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I think I might have the wrong number.

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You're the chief technical officer, right?

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You're like,

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how many people do you think

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we have in our organization?

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Yeah.

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Well,

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that's when you really know you've

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fucked up when they assume

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that there are multiple

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departments of people

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working there and you're like,

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how much money have I

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accidentally just spent?

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When you're spending enough

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money for them to think

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that you can afford to have people.

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Our peak AWS bill during the incident,

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as we like to call it, was...

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Bigger than what?

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Yeah, no.

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So I've worked in big

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companies where the AWS

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bill for that part of the

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engineering function was

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smaller per month.

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So like, you know,

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we're talking about like a

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function with like maybe 20

00:08:58.677 --> 00:08:59.937
engineers or something like that.

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Their infrastructure bill is smaller.

00:09:04.427 --> 00:09:06.528
Oh dear, it was only for one month.

00:09:06.567 --> 00:09:07.427
The moral of that story is

00:09:07.768 --> 00:09:09.928
always have your AWS

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billing notifications set

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to weekly if you can, not monthly.

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And if your dashboard

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doesn't let you do it,

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then you should just make

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sure you have some other

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stuff like Slack reminders or whatever.

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Anyway, that was a long time in the past.

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So...

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consensus, the consensus on consensus.

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You're gonna rock up, say to people,

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all right, cunts, what do you need?

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What do you need doing?

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I can fix it.

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I'm your man hand over the

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Benjamins and they're just

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gonna roll over from the,

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the sheer size of your

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brass Australian balls.

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Is that it?

00:09:44.481 --> 00:09:46.422
That's the business development plan.

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Uh, not, not quite like that.

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I suppose not far off, right?

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No.

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Well,

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I'm hoping that I can actually, A,

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meet up with existing clients.

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Hopefully there will be some

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of those there.

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And I don't expect to go

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home with any more business in hand,

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but at least have some more contacts into,

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you know,

00:10:16.184 --> 00:10:19.044
up and coming protocols and new dApps,

00:10:20.166 --> 00:10:20.826
new developers.

00:10:21.745 --> 00:10:21.926
So...

00:10:23.782 --> 00:10:25.124
It's not about – you're not

00:10:25.144 --> 00:10:26.284
going to sell someone on the spot,

00:10:26.625 --> 00:10:30.149
but you can definitely get

00:10:30.188 --> 00:10:30.850
a foot in the door,

00:10:31.149 --> 00:10:32.431
which is hard sometimes

00:10:32.692 --> 00:10:33.312
over the internet.

00:10:35.274 --> 00:10:36.916
Yeah, that's 100% the case.

00:10:37.336 --> 00:10:38.317
I think one of the things

00:10:38.357 --> 00:10:42.017
that I definitely feel like having now –

00:10:42.017 --> 00:10:42.837
substantially more time and

00:10:42.878 --> 00:10:45.620
energy to actually do work properly.

00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:47.341
And like to what I would

00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:48.581
call an acceptable standard

00:10:49.121 --> 00:10:50.222
is I just feel like I've

00:10:50.283 --> 00:10:51.403
missed out on a year of,

00:10:51.524 --> 00:10:52.644
I know we've been doing the podcast,

00:10:52.664 --> 00:10:53.706
but like other than the day

00:10:53.745 --> 00:10:55.606
to day news of what's

00:10:56.148 --> 00:10:57.269
actually kind of happening

00:10:57.349 --> 00:10:58.610
or happened past tense,

00:10:58.649 --> 00:11:00.311
like I'm just feel very out

00:11:00.331 --> 00:11:03.493
of the loop other than the

00:11:03.594 --> 00:11:04.313
limited exposure.

00:11:04.333 --> 00:11:06.134
I suppose I have just from,

00:11:08.277 --> 00:11:10.339
I guess there are some things where I,

00:11:11.943 --> 00:11:12.904
uh just for research

00:11:12.965 --> 00:11:14.105
purposes I check in on

00:11:14.145 --> 00:11:15.446
various news things I guess

00:11:15.525 --> 00:11:16.787
on the reg so I see some

00:11:16.807 --> 00:11:18.207
like oh that network is

00:11:18.248 --> 00:11:19.548
still not launched or that

00:11:19.629 --> 00:11:21.570
network is going to or that

00:11:21.629 --> 00:11:23.331
team has got vc or

00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:24.192
something like that but I

00:11:24.231 --> 00:11:25.052
feel like very out of the

00:11:25.091 --> 00:11:29.654
loop on not I say large

00:11:29.715 --> 00:11:30.775
networks launching but like

00:11:30.875 --> 00:11:31.816
if they're like future

00:11:31.836 --> 00:11:32.797
projects and daps and that

00:11:32.836 --> 00:11:33.717
kind of thing which is that

00:11:33.758 --> 00:11:35.198
that's a really good thing to be fair for

00:11:36.323 --> 00:11:37.443
uh going to one of these

00:11:37.464 --> 00:11:38.784
conferences right you get

00:11:39.725 --> 00:11:41.605
you can just like kind of

00:11:41.644 --> 00:11:42.544
wander around and meet

00:11:42.585 --> 00:11:45.505
those people right yeah I

00:11:45.566 --> 00:11:47.206
think and also you feel the

00:11:47.245 --> 00:11:50.687
buzz yeah right yeah you

00:11:50.706 --> 00:11:51.827
get a better gauge of like

00:11:51.888 --> 00:11:52.927
what people are excited

00:11:52.967 --> 00:11:54.567
about you can and you get

00:11:54.648 --> 00:11:56.989
access to people like you

00:11:57.009 --> 00:11:58.028
know particularly as

00:12:01.254 --> 00:12:01.433
you know,

00:12:01.474 --> 00:12:03.075
obviously we run in a certain circle.

00:12:03.154 --> 00:12:06.995
So that circle in person generally,

00:12:07.216 --> 00:12:07.475
you know,

00:12:07.495 --> 00:12:08.677
gets you invites to different

00:12:08.716 --> 00:12:09.636
things and you can go and

00:12:10.557 --> 00:12:11.398
meet up with people.

00:12:11.437 --> 00:12:12.298
And it's even like,

00:12:12.398 --> 00:12:13.638
even just catching up with

00:12:13.677 --> 00:12:15.558
like other validators and

00:12:15.658 --> 00:12:16.558
being able to talk about

00:12:16.619 --> 00:12:19.000
stuff over a beer is I

00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.760
think valuable in the long run.

00:12:22.361 --> 00:12:23.381
Um, you know,

00:12:23.402 --> 00:12:24.841
cuz this business is partly

00:12:24.861 --> 00:12:26.462
about relationships as well, even,

00:12:27.302 --> 00:12:29.024
even though like a lot of, um,

00:12:30.609 --> 00:12:30.808
you know,

00:12:31.109 --> 00:12:32.350
those types of validators and

00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:33.451
other service providers are

00:12:33.471 --> 00:12:34.091
your competition,

00:12:34.131 --> 00:12:36.033
I think it's important that, you know,

00:12:36.333 --> 00:12:37.333
you're all still sort of

00:12:39.855 --> 00:12:42.818
friendly with each other and talk.

00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:44.419
Like, you know, us, Case and Point,

00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:45.581
the group that does this

00:12:45.620 --> 00:12:48.202
where we talk on a, you know,

00:12:48.243 --> 00:12:49.644
sometimes daily basis just

00:12:49.703 --> 00:12:50.524
about the goings on.

00:12:52.190 --> 00:12:53.350
which is probably accounts

00:12:53.370 --> 00:12:55.312
for the slightly, uh, what's it called?

00:12:55.331 --> 00:12:56.773
The slightly diminished, uh,

00:12:56.852 --> 00:12:57.854
membership today,

00:12:57.894 --> 00:12:58.754
which is that we've already,

00:12:58.835 --> 00:13:00.515
we've already had a group call this week.

00:13:01.157 --> 00:13:01.996
We just didn't film it.

00:13:03.817 --> 00:13:06.480
Uh, so, uh, which,

00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:07.321
which actually leads on.

00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.783
So the, uh, the, the,

00:13:09.903 --> 00:13:12.845
the fun and the fun and games of, um,

00:13:13.264 --> 00:13:14.225
although, so actually hang on,

00:13:14.326 --> 00:13:16.006
we've had quite a few comments, uh,

00:13:16.748 --> 00:13:18.028
which probably, uh, okay.

00:13:18.048 --> 00:13:20.711
So mainly, mainly trolling on the basis of,

00:13:20.971 --> 00:13:21.110
uh,

00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:24.241
Oh, hey, Schultzy, how's it going?

00:13:24.261 --> 00:13:25.601
You look tired.

00:13:25.621 --> 00:13:27.523
I'm very tired.

00:13:27.962 --> 00:13:30.024
Very tired.

00:13:31.764 --> 00:13:32.804
Ben Davis says... Maybe we

00:13:32.865 --> 00:13:33.684
should get Schultzy a pillow.

00:13:35.645 --> 00:13:38.807
Schultzy, should Ben Davis sell some coins,

00:13:39.006 --> 00:13:39.606
some shit coins,

00:13:39.647 --> 00:13:41.106
to buy Foo Fighter gig tickets?

00:13:41.147 --> 00:13:41.567
There you go.

00:13:41.587 --> 00:13:43.488
Ooh.

00:13:43.768 --> 00:13:45.528
I'm not the person to ask about that.

00:13:45.889 --> 00:13:46.869
I don't like the Foo Fighters.

00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:47.649
Which shit coin?

00:13:50.096 --> 00:13:51.398
Which particular shit coin

00:13:51.557 --> 00:13:52.837
are you talking about Ben Davis?

00:13:52.898 --> 00:13:53.677
Like if it's a,

00:13:55.658 --> 00:13:57.659
are we talking like 2021

00:13:57.659 --> 00:13:58.801
now shit coins or are we

00:13:58.821 --> 00:14:00.480
talking like recent

00:14:02.322 --> 00:14:04.062
currently shit meme coins?

00:14:05.423 --> 00:14:05.743
I don't know.

00:14:05.763 --> 00:14:06.984
Cause they've got different prospects.

00:14:09.644 --> 00:14:10.544
Which coins have good

00:14:10.585 --> 00:14:11.586
prospects at the moment.

00:14:11.826 --> 00:14:12.625
I just see red.

00:14:14.866 --> 00:14:15.407
Yeah.

00:14:15.847 --> 00:14:16.008
Uh,

00:14:16.567 --> 00:14:18.408
those red builders have definitely been

00:14:18.448 --> 00:14:19.009
getting around.

00:14:19.594 --> 00:14:21.595
Since the Bitcoin halving,

00:14:21.654 --> 00:14:23.215
it's just been down only.

00:14:23.235 --> 00:14:26.576
I mean, if you look at history,

00:14:26.615 --> 00:14:30.376
that's not necessarily new.

00:14:31.897 --> 00:14:33.138
Usually right after the halving,

00:14:33.158 --> 00:14:35.597
there is a fair bit of a whackening.

00:14:35.618 --> 00:14:37.038
Yeah.

00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.259
There's usually a lead up

00:14:40.359 --> 00:14:42.240
into the halving and then a

00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:43.559
lull after the halving and

00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:45.461
then some sort of insane bullshit.

00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:46.201
But...

00:14:47.264 --> 00:14:49.346
I think in the past, there's always,

00:14:49.365 --> 00:14:51.447
I think I've said this before,

00:14:51.486 --> 00:14:54.570
there's usually some hype

00:14:54.950 --> 00:14:55.931
for the halvening and then

00:14:56.191 --> 00:14:57.711
it happens and then everyone's like, oh.

00:14:58.011 --> 00:15:00.815
But then sometime shortly after,

00:15:00.835 --> 00:15:02.076
a lot of the time there is

00:15:02.155 --> 00:15:03.356
like a catalyst that sort

00:15:03.397 --> 00:15:05.258
of sets the candle alight.

00:15:06.099 --> 00:15:07.700
And I don't know that there

00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:08.660
is one right now.

00:15:09.541 --> 00:15:10.682
But, you know, they tend to sneak up.

00:15:10.741 --> 00:15:12.143
Like the last one I think

00:15:12.183 --> 00:15:14.926
I've said before was COVID

00:15:14.966 --> 00:15:16.187
was the catalyst last time.

00:15:17.556 --> 00:15:19.496
Uh, and it just snuck up.

00:15:20.118 --> 00:15:20.298
I mean,

00:15:20.337 --> 00:15:23.019
luckily there's no potentially

00:15:23.359 --> 00:15:24.440
significant geopolitical

00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:25.541
events happening this year.

00:15:25.561 --> 00:15:32.083
What shit going on all over the place?

00:15:33.365 --> 00:15:34.206
That's the joke.

00:15:35.446 --> 00:15:35.927
All right.

00:15:36.326 --> 00:15:37.486
It was straight into it.

00:15:38.028 --> 00:15:38.988
It was like, it was like,

00:15:39.509 --> 00:15:40.448
it was like seeing a deer

00:15:40.528 --> 00:15:41.889
gang hit by the freight train.

00:15:43.443 --> 00:15:43.785
It was like,

00:15:43.826 --> 00:15:46.717
have you ever seen that old meme?

00:15:46.758 --> 00:15:47.480
It's like a gift.

00:15:48.875 --> 00:15:49.775
Or maybe it's like a really

00:15:49.937 --> 00:15:50.856
short video clip,

00:15:50.876 --> 00:15:52.636
like potato quality of like,

00:15:53.258 --> 00:15:56.578
there's like a train going

00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:57.778
along like a freight train

00:15:57.918 --> 00:16:00.740
and a truck has like broken

00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:02.080
down on some level crossing

00:16:02.921 --> 00:16:05.120
and the freight train just

00:16:05.260 --> 00:16:06.621
clips the front of the truck,

00:16:06.642 --> 00:16:08.182
but keeps going, doesn't derail.

00:16:08.621 --> 00:16:09.462
And the truck just gets

00:16:09.543 --> 00:16:11.182
pushed back and actually

00:16:11.222 --> 00:16:11.943
gets away with it.

00:16:12.124 --> 00:16:12.844
And it's fine.

00:16:13.563 --> 00:16:14.543
And the train just keeps

00:16:14.583 --> 00:16:16.205
going and the truck is safe.

00:16:17.414 --> 00:16:18.794
And then right at the end of the video,

00:16:18.835 --> 00:16:20.015
a second train comes in

00:16:20.035 --> 00:16:20.975
from the other direction,

00:16:21.355 --> 00:16:23.136
smashes into the truck and derails.

00:16:27.238 --> 00:16:27.477
Cool story.

00:16:27.498 --> 00:16:29.158
You've never seen that video?

00:16:29.178 --> 00:16:29.418
Yeah.

00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:31.320
Nope, never seen it.

00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:32.620
We're talking like old school.

00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:37.241
It's not like 2000 and not mid 2000s,

00:16:37.261 --> 00:16:38.381
maybe even earlier than that.

00:16:38.442 --> 00:16:39.342
But I remember that the

00:16:39.383 --> 00:16:42.083
caption was player two has entered.

00:16:42.423 --> 00:16:43.224
That's what it said right at

00:16:43.244 --> 00:16:44.203
the end of the thing before

00:16:44.224 --> 00:16:44.985
the video repeats,

00:16:45.024 --> 00:16:46.184
like player two has joined.

00:16:47.436 --> 00:16:49.816
Uh, and all I could remember thinking was,

00:16:50.216 --> 00:16:51.937
I really hope nobody was in that truck.

00:16:51.976 --> 00:16:52.797
And then I was like, but actually,

00:16:52.836 --> 00:16:53.996
even if nobody was in that truck,

00:16:54.356 --> 00:16:55.636
somebody who'd been driving that train,

00:16:56.638 --> 00:16:57.378
um, yeah,

00:16:57.437 --> 00:16:59.697
almost certainly people died in that, uh,

00:16:59.778 --> 00:17:00.898
little video clip.

00:17:01.798 --> 00:17:02.298
Kind of dark.

00:17:04.278 --> 00:17:06.638
Um, speaking of potatoes,

00:17:07.098 --> 00:17:09.539
did you find something you

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:11.420
mentioned potato speaking of potatoes?

00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:12.680
Did you find something to

00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.820
run G ethon gift?

00:17:17.467 --> 00:17:20.290
Uh, well, no, we've been primarily so, uh,

00:17:20.611 --> 00:17:23.335
I gather you can write,

00:17:23.394 --> 00:17:24.195
write on anything.

00:17:24.215 --> 00:17:25.637
Um,

00:17:25.938 --> 00:17:28.842
so probably just a cheap box from OVH

00:17:29.061 --> 00:17:29.542
or Hetzner.

00:17:29.762 --> 00:17:30.964
Well, I guess you can't run it on Hetzner,

00:17:31.005 --> 00:17:31.305
can you?

00:17:31.325 --> 00:17:34.068
So, uh, probably OVH is the plan.

00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:38.011
Yeah, I'd stick with something not Hetzner,

00:17:38.332 --> 00:17:38.792
if I were you.

00:17:38.992 --> 00:17:39.252
Yeah.

00:17:41.214 --> 00:17:41.914
But yeah, I mean,

00:17:41.934 --> 00:17:43.616
it seems like pretty much

00:17:43.896 --> 00:17:46.819
any cheap dedicated server will do.

00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:48.780
Speaking of dedicated servers,

00:17:48.861 --> 00:17:50.122
one of the only things we

00:17:50.142 --> 00:17:51.343
still have on AWS,

00:17:51.383 --> 00:17:53.105
we've still got a TMKMS box,

00:17:53.765 --> 00:17:55.487
and we're going to replatform it soon.

00:17:55.567 --> 00:17:56.847
Are you still running DJN

00:17:56.867 --> 00:17:57.949
Horcrux for some stuff,

00:17:58.068 --> 00:18:00.530
or are you full Horcrux Raft?

00:18:02.608 --> 00:18:04.130
Ultra fast still,

00:18:04.150 --> 00:18:08.071
I find Horcrux degen is better.

00:18:09.492 --> 00:18:12.513
There's still some people

00:18:12.673 --> 00:18:13.595
struggling with the whole

00:18:13.634 --> 00:18:17.316
raft thing with particular networks.

00:18:19.656 --> 00:18:20.337
Regardless,

00:18:20.377 --> 00:18:21.637
we don't run them on our bare

00:18:21.698 --> 00:18:22.338
metal anyway.

00:18:22.398 --> 00:18:26.780
We keep all that stuff on DigitalOcean.

00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:28.161
Right.

00:18:28.181 --> 00:18:28.401
Okay.

00:18:28.441 --> 00:18:29.521
So, yeah, fair enough.

00:18:30.114 --> 00:18:30.213
Yeah.

00:18:30.233 --> 00:18:31.634
I mean, we're, we're on like a, you know,

00:18:31.694 --> 00:18:32.476
that's the one thing we

00:18:32.516 --> 00:18:34.436
have on AWS virtual instances,

00:18:34.457 --> 00:18:35.678
cuz worst case scenario,

00:18:35.738 --> 00:18:36.617
you can just regen.

00:18:36.637 --> 00:18:41.740
Um, what, what we're gonna do is move the,

00:18:42.382 --> 00:18:42.501
uh,

00:18:42.781 --> 00:18:45.884
move all of the connections behind a

00:18:45.983 --> 00:18:47.684
dynamic DNS and then, um,

00:18:48.726 --> 00:18:49.766
actually rebuild it to a

00:18:49.826 --> 00:18:52.907
new generation of, um, AWS instance.

00:18:53.048 --> 00:18:55.849
But it feels like TM KMS is

00:18:55.910 --> 00:18:58.271
just abandoned where at this point, um,

00:18:59.941 --> 00:19:02.962
I would minimum run Horcrux in DGN.

00:19:02.982 --> 00:19:03.723
I wouldn't.

00:19:04.503 --> 00:19:05.345
Yeah.

00:19:05.525 --> 00:19:06.806
So I'm kind of thinking is

00:19:07.006 --> 00:19:09.027
now the time to replatform.

00:19:09.106 --> 00:19:09.667
Cause I mean,

00:19:09.688 --> 00:19:11.148
the other thing is like we

00:19:11.388 --> 00:19:11.929
announced that we were

00:19:11.969 --> 00:19:13.269
shutting down Mars a few

00:19:13.349 --> 00:19:15.791
months ago and nobody, well,

00:19:16.271 --> 00:19:17.113
I think we probably have a

00:19:17.153 --> 00:19:18.153
small number of delegators

00:19:18.173 --> 00:19:19.233
who are bigger delegators

00:19:19.273 --> 00:19:20.934
and we still haven't turned that off.

00:19:21.655 --> 00:19:24.877
So in the process of like, when we do this,

00:19:24.917 --> 00:19:25.837
I'm kind of like, Oh,

00:19:25.858 --> 00:19:27.359
I may as well just rebuild DGN.

00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:29.580
like accept five hours of

00:19:29.621 --> 00:19:31.501
downtime fully rebuild

00:19:32.241 --> 00:19:35.344
everything turn off mars um

00:19:36.424 --> 00:19:37.164
and then just dj and

00:19:37.184 --> 00:19:38.546
horcrux the remaining stuff

00:19:38.625 --> 00:19:40.487
rather than continuing to

00:19:40.527 --> 00:19:42.749
run tmkms just like fully

00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:45.490
uh for like backup snapshot

00:19:45.509 --> 00:19:46.790
the instance and then nuke

00:19:46.830 --> 00:19:48.092
it from orbit so that it

00:19:48.152 --> 00:19:50.012
can't ever restart and then

00:19:50.353 --> 00:19:51.473
just rebuild everything

00:19:52.294 --> 00:19:54.055
from horcrux just get that

00:19:54.075 --> 00:19:54.875
ready on a separate box

00:19:56.229 --> 00:19:57.930
That seems overly cautious.

00:20:01.050 --> 00:20:05.011
I mean, it's bad to be, yeah, I dunno.

00:20:05.031 --> 00:20:08.653
I take a bit of downtime rather than, uh,

00:20:09.834 --> 00:20:10.973
rather than risk a double sign,

00:20:11.075 --> 00:20:12.454
I think is my attitude on that.

00:20:13.355 --> 00:20:13.955
Well, you're,

00:20:16.316 --> 00:20:17.477
you're only running like

00:20:18.576 --> 00:20:20.298
single centuries anyway, right?

00:20:21.451 --> 00:20:22.231
I guess actually, yeah,

00:20:22.251 --> 00:20:22.872
that's a good point,

00:20:22.971 --> 00:20:24.212
is that because you have

00:20:24.272 --> 00:20:27.115
the external ladder address, right,

00:20:27.756 --> 00:20:28.717
you're functionally can

00:20:28.757 --> 00:20:29.897
only ever listen to one

00:20:29.938 --> 00:20:30.999
external signer anyway.

00:20:31.078 --> 00:20:33.080
So D-Gen,

00:20:33.862 --> 00:20:35.942
D-Gen Horcrux actually protects

00:20:36.003 --> 00:20:38.285
you from a configuration plug-up.

00:20:39.086 --> 00:20:41.167
It won't let TM gamers connect.

00:20:42.288 --> 00:20:43.450
Well, yeah, exactly.

00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:44.490
You're connecting to one or the other,

00:20:44.510 --> 00:20:44.871
aren't you?

00:20:44.911 --> 00:20:45.432
So actually,

00:20:45.971 --> 00:20:46.952
you don't even need to worry about it.

00:20:46.972 --> 00:20:48.074
You can just spin it up separately.

00:20:50.221 --> 00:20:50.541
Yeah.

00:20:50.741 --> 00:20:52.262
Obviously like miss some

00:20:52.303 --> 00:20:53.604
blocks in between when you

00:20:53.983 --> 00:20:56.164
stop your century and restart it.

00:20:56.265 --> 00:20:59.846
But yeah, I mean, yeah.

00:20:59.986 --> 00:21:02.027
Once T like TMKMS isn't just

00:21:02.047 --> 00:21:03.448
going to fucking get cursed

00:21:03.508 --> 00:21:04.528
and start back up again.

00:21:05.209 --> 00:21:06.388
If you disable the service,

00:21:06.489 --> 00:21:09.109
like it's doesn't just like

00:21:09.611 --> 00:21:10.790
computers are pretty personal.

00:21:10.951 --> 00:21:12.011
I think you should know that by now.

00:21:14.512 --> 00:21:16.513
Uh, I mean, they're, they're,

00:21:18.125 --> 00:21:19.926
run by code, you tell it to do things,

00:21:19.967 --> 00:21:20.507
then it does it.

00:21:22.087 --> 00:21:22.647
Well, it doesn't.

00:21:22.667 --> 00:21:24.127
It often doesn't.

00:21:24.147 --> 00:21:25.868
Well, it does.

00:21:26.929 --> 00:21:28.170
It often doesn't.

00:21:28.650 --> 00:21:29.490
If you tell it to do

00:21:29.570 --> 00:21:30.770
something that you didn't

00:21:30.810 --> 00:21:31.790
realize to tell it to do,

00:21:31.830 --> 00:21:32.551
it'll do the thing.

00:21:33.811 --> 00:21:35.073
Except when it doesn't do the thing.

00:21:35.492 --> 00:21:36.133
Except when it doesn't do

00:21:36.153 --> 00:21:36.712
the thing because of an

00:21:36.732 --> 00:21:38.854
application error or the halting problem.

00:21:40.795 --> 00:21:41.035
Yeah,

00:21:41.055 --> 00:21:42.556
but if you tell something to not start,

00:21:42.576 --> 00:21:43.296
it won't start.

00:21:44.642 --> 00:21:46.503
Unless there's a bug from

00:21:46.564 --> 00:21:48.846
some intersection of complicated things.

00:21:49.366 --> 00:21:51.909
What's some zero day bug in system day.

00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:54.030
That's going to like re-enable a process.

00:21:54.351 --> 00:21:55.412
I don't think so, Bob.

00:21:56.313 --> 00:21:58.875
I mean, granted like low level Linux stuff,

00:21:59.135 --> 00:21:59.635
unlikely,

00:21:59.715 --> 00:22:02.939
but the paranoia is still there and, uh,

00:22:02.959 --> 00:22:05.821
you know, serves, serves this guy well.

00:22:06.343 --> 00:22:08.464
So, um,

00:22:12.030 --> 00:22:13.451
just got my notification for

00:22:13.490 --> 00:22:15.051
my calendar for the podcast

00:22:15.112 --> 00:22:16.571
so I need to update some

00:22:16.612 --> 00:22:19.653
things yeah clearly you're

00:22:19.692 --> 00:22:22.413
not on utc no I'm not back

00:22:22.493 --> 00:22:26.714
into uh the not daylight

00:22:26.734 --> 00:22:28.355
savings time this won't be

00:22:28.375 --> 00:22:29.454
a problem soon we're moving

00:22:29.474 --> 00:22:30.296
to queensland there's no

00:22:30.336 --> 00:22:31.435
daylight savings up there

00:22:31.496 --> 00:22:32.375
so yeah but why didn't you

00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:34.416
just fucking put it in utc

00:22:34.436 --> 00:22:36.057
in the first place in your calendar

00:22:37.162 --> 00:22:38.122
And then it will always

00:22:38.201 --> 00:22:40.282
adapt to your local time

00:22:40.343 --> 00:22:43.023
because the event is defined in UTC.

00:22:44.005 --> 00:22:44.765
You might have a point.

00:22:45.605 --> 00:22:46.085
I mean,

00:22:46.526 --> 00:22:48.365
that is why you do everything in UTC.

00:22:50.926 --> 00:22:51.086
Yeah.

00:22:51.106 --> 00:22:52.867
I mean, I operate in UTC anyway.

00:22:54.147 --> 00:22:54.347
Yeah.

00:22:54.848 --> 00:22:55.989
You just go into like

00:22:56.628 --> 00:22:57.710
somewhere in your Google

00:22:57.750 --> 00:22:58.509
calendar settings,

00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:00.911
you do default time for events, UTC,

00:23:01.570 --> 00:23:02.612
but then you tick the box

00:23:02.771 --> 00:23:03.612
or whatever it is where it

00:23:03.652 --> 00:23:06.313
says show in my time zone.

00:23:07.596 --> 00:23:08.958
I actually just did that yesterday.

00:23:08.978 --> 00:23:10.057
I didn't realize you could

00:23:10.077 --> 00:23:12.019
do that until yesterday.

00:23:12.138 --> 00:23:13.638
That's how I have mine set

00:23:13.739 --> 00:23:15.319
up so that it doesn't freak

00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:17.121
me out when people in other

00:23:17.141 --> 00:23:18.260
time zones are like, hey,

00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:19.781
I've put an event in, and you're like,

00:23:21.682 --> 00:23:22.462
it's just like, yeah, OK,

00:23:22.502 --> 00:23:23.063
it's really easy.

00:23:23.083 --> 00:23:25.683
And I just say, oh, is blah, blah, blah,

00:23:25.864 --> 00:23:26.464
UTC a good time?

00:23:26.484 --> 00:23:27.464
And they go, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

00:23:29.234 --> 00:23:30.596
All those high-powered,

00:23:30.675 --> 00:23:32.156
complex business meetings I

00:23:32.196 --> 00:23:35.238
have as a half-assed,

00:23:35.298 --> 00:23:39.661
washed-up node operator slash engineer.

00:23:39.861 --> 00:23:40.240
But, yeah.

00:23:41.862 --> 00:23:45.503
It looks like, well,

00:23:47.625 --> 00:23:51.267
you can't do it in the Apple calendar.

00:23:52.547 --> 00:23:54.028
Oh, I don't know about the Apple one.

00:23:54.468 --> 00:23:55.328
I got Gmail, baby.

00:23:56.617 --> 00:23:58.138
Yeah, I mean, it is a Gmail account,

00:23:58.159 --> 00:23:58.960
but it looks like I'll have

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:00.661
to actually log into Gmail

00:24:00.721 --> 00:24:01.682
to achieve that.

00:24:03.002 --> 00:24:03.743
You might have to.

00:24:03.763 --> 00:24:04.203
I can do that.

00:24:04.944 --> 00:24:05.305
Maybe you will.

00:24:05.325 --> 00:24:05.905
I can do that.

00:24:05.945 --> 00:24:06.826
We have the power.

00:24:07.146 --> 00:24:07.426
Yeah.

00:24:07.567 --> 00:24:08.528
We have the technology.

00:24:08.768 --> 00:24:13.571
So, yeah.

00:24:16.493 --> 00:24:17.355
Cool story, Hansel.

00:24:18.395 --> 00:24:18.875
Cool story.

00:24:19.817 --> 00:24:20.576
Yeah.

00:24:20.596 --> 00:24:21.218
So, Shiltzy,

00:24:21.258 --> 00:24:23.279
tell us about this failure to

00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:23.640
launch thing.

00:24:27.282 --> 00:24:28.763
uh, failure to launch what?

00:24:29.825 --> 00:24:31.086
You said you've been up all

00:24:31.125 --> 00:24:33.186
night trying to, uh, start a network.

00:24:35.469 --> 00:24:38.130
No, no, there was a network called, uh,

00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:39.471
D wallet that was launching

00:24:39.832 --> 00:24:42.993
and they did it from Israel time,

00:24:43.034 --> 00:24:44.054
like 3 PM Israel time,

00:24:44.074 --> 00:24:46.576
which was 2 AM my time.

00:24:47.497 --> 00:24:49.597
So I was just up for their Genesis.

00:24:49.917 --> 00:24:54.240
Um, Oh, there was no problem.

00:24:54.320 --> 00:24:55.481
It was just that, uh,

00:24:56.951 --> 00:24:59.432
it was at an inconvenient time.

00:25:00.933 --> 00:25:01.173
Yeah.

00:25:01.914 --> 00:25:02.674
Yeah.

00:25:03.415 --> 00:25:04.655
I would actually contest that.

00:25:04.675 --> 00:25:06.096
I think the next bull market

00:25:06.136 --> 00:25:07.498
is going to be when a good

00:25:07.637 --> 00:25:10.598
advent of privacy chains comes out.

00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:11.819
That's my thought.

00:25:13.141 --> 00:25:14.801
I think that with more and

00:25:14.821 --> 00:25:15.842
more information coming out

00:25:15.902 --> 00:25:17.722
about how Bitcoin and

00:25:17.762 --> 00:25:19.584
Ethereum are truly not anonymous,

00:25:20.244 --> 00:25:21.164
they're pseudo anonymous.

00:25:22.326 --> 00:25:23.066
I think whenever people

00:25:23.145 --> 00:25:25.488
start seeing like secret network and

00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:28.830
Um, various ZK networks coming out,

00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:31.452
which aren't exactly private, but the,

00:25:31.492 --> 00:25:32.413
the nuance will be lost.

00:25:33.093 --> 00:25:33.213
Um,

00:25:33.453 --> 00:25:35.595
I think that's when the re excitement

00:25:35.615 --> 00:25:36.895
will really blow back up.

00:25:40.877 --> 00:25:43.219
That's relevant because D wallet is a, um,

00:25:45.019 --> 00:25:47.201
is like a pseudo privacy chain,

00:25:47.520 --> 00:25:48.682
not actually pseudo privacy,

00:25:48.701 --> 00:25:51.143
but like uses, um, NPC.

00:25:51.222 --> 00:25:53.845
So every valid has its own key to create,

00:25:54.164 --> 00:25:54.244
um,

00:25:55.761 --> 00:25:56.741
a form of privacy.

00:25:57.262 --> 00:26:00.124
And so that's what I came to mind.

00:26:00.144 --> 00:26:02.065
It's outside of Cosmos ecosystem then,

00:26:02.085 --> 00:26:02.484
I'm guessing?

00:26:03.786 --> 00:26:04.326
It is, yeah.

00:26:04.365 --> 00:26:05.246
It's kind of like an

00:26:05.286 --> 00:26:07.227
encryption stack built on top of SWE.

00:26:08.186 --> 00:26:08.688
It's going to use,

00:26:08.807 --> 00:26:10.929
it's not using SWE stack as

00:26:10.989 --> 00:26:12.189
if it were the Cosmos SDK,

00:26:12.269 --> 00:26:12.930
I guess you could say.

00:26:13.569 --> 00:26:14.470
They forked SWE and then

00:26:14.509 --> 00:26:15.190
built on top of that.

00:26:15.211 --> 00:26:16.270
Oh, really?

00:26:16.290 --> 00:26:17.270
That's interesting.

00:26:17.551 --> 00:26:19.893
So they chose SWE.

00:26:20.492 --> 00:26:20.873
Interesting.

00:26:22.903 --> 00:26:25.684
So are they still using the

00:26:25.724 --> 00:26:26.665
move VM in that?

00:26:29.747 --> 00:26:29.946
Yes.

00:26:30.487 --> 00:26:31.347
I guess they must be, yeah,

00:26:31.387 --> 00:26:32.587
because it's the move VMs

00:26:33.148 --> 00:26:34.429
tied to consensus, isn't it?

00:26:37.009 --> 00:26:37.590
Interesting.

00:26:37.711 --> 00:26:40.912
So which bits of that are anonymous then?

00:26:47.545 --> 00:26:48.185
Great question.

00:26:48.806 --> 00:26:49.967
I don't think I really have

00:26:49.987 --> 00:26:50.827
the mental capacity to

00:26:50.887 --> 00:26:51.788
answer that question fully.

00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:56.192
Shilty, are you a validator on sweep?

00:26:57.772 --> 00:26:57.933
No.

00:26:59.994 --> 00:27:00.976
I'm not either.

00:27:01.135 --> 00:27:02.676
You're not, Frey?

00:27:04.459 --> 00:27:04.679
No.

00:27:04.699 --> 00:27:06.180
Did a very cursory bit of...

00:27:12.355 --> 00:27:13.497
networking in that direction

00:27:13.557 --> 00:27:14.998
realized that every single

00:27:15.018 --> 00:27:16.117
fucker in the entire space

00:27:16.178 --> 00:27:17.398
was and that there was no

00:27:17.459 --> 00:27:18.759
chance and that we don't

00:27:18.818 --> 00:27:21.299
have the sheer energy and

00:27:21.339 --> 00:27:24.582
enthusiasm and resources of

00:27:24.622 --> 00:27:26.702
somebody like Artifact and

00:27:26.722 --> 00:27:28.022
so which this is not going

00:27:28.042 --> 00:27:29.604
to happen let's not waste

00:27:29.644 --> 00:27:32.224
this but I think out of

00:27:32.684 --> 00:27:34.905
people we know friends of

00:27:34.965 --> 00:27:37.227
the podcast if you like I

00:27:37.247 --> 00:27:38.988
think only Artifact are SWE

00:27:39.008 --> 00:27:40.969
validators at least Genesis validators

00:27:42.428 --> 00:27:42.728
Okay.

00:27:43.548 --> 00:27:43.929
Yeah,

00:27:44.148 --> 00:27:45.529
I met some random dudes here in

00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:47.611
Melbourne that were SWE validators.

00:27:47.691 --> 00:27:48.770
And I'm like, oh, okay,

00:27:48.971 --> 00:27:49.771
what else do you validate?

00:27:49.791 --> 00:27:50.731
And they're like, no,

00:27:51.133 --> 00:27:52.012
this is the first one.

00:27:52.573 --> 00:27:53.534
We just knew some people.

00:27:54.394 --> 00:27:56.095
And I was like, really?

00:27:56.675 --> 00:27:57.635
I have no idea.

00:27:57.715 --> 00:28:00.136
Like, is it profitable, like SWE?

00:28:00.156 --> 00:28:01.357
Because their tokenomics and

00:28:01.397 --> 00:28:04.700
their model is pretty different.

00:28:04.779 --> 00:28:05.700
It was for these guys.

00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:06.861
So, yeah.

00:28:08.402 --> 00:28:08.662
Yeah.

00:28:08.682 --> 00:28:10.863
They were making decent clicks.

00:28:12.417 --> 00:28:14.440
there are I think five top

00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:15.539
validators on suite that

00:28:15.941 --> 00:28:17.422
have like something like a

00:28:17.501 --> 00:28:18.241
billion dollars each

00:28:18.782 --> 00:28:19.563
delegate to them from the

00:28:19.583 --> 00:28:20.923
delegate or from the foundation.

00:28:20.983 --> 00:28:22.566
So they are definitely making good money.

00:28:22.586 --> 00:28:24.146
Oh, wow.

00:28:24.227 --> 00:28:25.468
It's always the way, isn't it?

00:28:25.528 --> 00:28:27.048
If you're, if you've got a sweet, sweet,

00:28:27.068 --> 00:28:28.410
sweet foundation delegation,

00:28:28.450 --> 00:28:30.711
you could be on, I don't know,

00:28:30.731 --> 00:28:31.612
a cosmos chain and you

00:28:31.632 --> 00:28:32.692
could probably make a few bucks.

00:28:33.012 --> 00:28:38.057
Like, um,

00:28:39.458 --> 00:28:40.979
so we've all been looking into the, uh,

00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:44.951
the new the new hotness with

00:28:45.172 --> 00:28:52.939
um dvt recently this is

00:28:52.959 --> 00:28:54.140
where you comment so yeah I

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.461
know we've been looking at

00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:56.622
deep vein thrombosis

00:28:58.323 --> 00:28:59.324
distributed validated

00:28:59.364 --> 00:29:02.906
technology oval ssv oh

00:29:03.067 --> 00:29:05.128
right yes yeah yes we have

00:29:05.848 --> 00:29:07.411
greatly greatly looking into

00:29:09.818 --> 00:29:10.740
And it's probably,

00:29:10.779 --> 00:29:12.140
I think Schiltzy might be

00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:14.340
too zonked to talk about it.

00:29:16.521 --> 00:29:19.763
But anywho,

00:29:21.204 --> 00:29:22.204
I should bring up this

00:29:22.224 --> 00:29:23.685
spreadsheet so I can look

00:29:23.746 --> 00:29:27.827
at the good work of Rama.

00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:32.289
And you'll be happy to know

00:29:32.569 --> 00:29:34.270
the fray that I have sorted

00:29:34.391 --> 00:29:37.532
out my calendar to the UTC time.

00:29:41.775 --> 00:29:42.935
And if you guys don't unmute

00:29:42.976 --> 00:29:44.837
your fucking microphones and talk to me,

00:29:44.857 --> 00:29:45.939
I'm going to leave.

00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:49.521
Very, very fragile.

00:29:49.622 --> 00:29:51.044
I was reading the

00:29:51.384 --> 00:29:52.444
spreadsheet to see what's in there.

00:29:52.884 --> 00:29:58.490
So... What was I going to say?

00:30:01.313 --> 00:30:01.534
The...

00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.760
The SSV stuff is kind of

00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:06.500
pretty interesting.

00:30:06.520 --> 00:30:08.303
I actually wonder as well if

00:30:08.982 --> 00:30:09.903
some of the threshold or

00:30:11.526 --> 00:30:12.807
pool or distributed

00:30:13.126 --> 00:30:14.968
validator stuff is kind of,

00:30:15.548 --> 00:30:17.951
it's an important technical thing.

00:30:18.755 --> 00:30:19.336
I don't think it's going to

00:30:19.355 --> 00:30:20.155
drive any kind of bull

00:30:20.236 --> 00:30:21.877
action because users don't give a shit,

00:30:22.018 --> 00:30:22.577
rightly so.

00:30:23.999 --> 00:30:24.539
But I think from a

00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:25.420
technology point of view,

00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.061
it's one of the things that

00:30:27.102 --> 00:30:29.403
needs... Basically,

00:30:29.544 --> 00:30:30.785
you just need lots and lots

00:30:30.825 --> 00:30:31.785
of different layers of

00:30:31.845 --> 00:30:34.446
things that mean that security,

00:30:34.487 --> 00:30:35.528
at least for any kind of

00:30:35.587 --> 00:30:36.608
proof-of-stake type model,

00:30:36.628 --> 00:30:38.329
that security is still happening,

00:30:39.411 --> 00:30:42.253
but distribution is greater.

00:30:43.273 --> 00:30:45.215
The missing piece of the puzzle though,

00:30:45.615 --> 00:30:47.357
and it has always been this, is that

00:30:48.613 --> 00:30:49.394
fundamentally

00:30:49.453 --> 00:30:51.275
decentralization in the terms

00:30:51.315 --> 00:30:52.455
that it's currently talked

00:30:52.496 --> 00:30:53.415
about and the terms that

00:30:53.455 --> 00:30:54.616
probably most important

00:30:54.676 --> 00:30:56.417
which is uh kind of

00:30:56.478 --> 00:30:57.939
resilience of the network

00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.300
like pure pure resilience

00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:02.863
of the network uh in terms

00:31:02.942 --> 00:31:05.463
of like uh what somebody

00:31:05.503 --> 00:31:07.205
like jp verne would call

00:31:07.346 --> 00:31:08.026
like good oh

00:31:08.306 --> 00:31:11.628
decentralization I think it

00:31:11.909 --> 00:31:13.750
relies very very heavily

00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:15.431
the incentive structure on

00:31:15.471 --> 00:31:16.711
validators making money

00:31:18.428 --> 00:31:20.930
duh and the problem is for

00:31:21.170 --> 00:31:23.211
users actually you want so

00:31:23.271 --> 00:31:24.992
many validators that they

00:31:25.053 --> 00:31:28.174
don't make money unless the

00:31:28.214 --> 00:31:29.896
market cap is massive and

00:31:30.616 --> 00:31:31.538
it just follows that

00:31:31.557 --> 00:31:33.058
there's almost no change

00:31:33.098 --> 00:31:34.200
where the market cap is

00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:35.421
substantial enough that you

00:31:35.441 --> 00:31:37.221
get like the idea that you

00:31:37.261 --> 00:31:40.204
get completely blue collar validators

00:31:41.471 --> 00:31:44.134
is ridiculous is ridiculous

00:31:44.173 --> 00:31:44.854
because of the technical

00:31:44.894 --> 00:31:46.715
overhead to do it right um

00:31:47.336 --> 00:31:48.538
so then you need to go okay

00:31:48.557 --> 00:31:50.138
well it has to be the other

00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:51.381
end of the sublime to the

00:31:51.421 --> 00:31:52.280
ridiculous it has to be

00:31:52.361 --> 00:31:54.784
consumer hardware you know

00:31:54.844 --> 00:31:56.424
just like like bitcoin was

00:31:56.444 --> 00:31:57.306
you know before it got

00:31:57.346 --> 00:31:58.586
popular way back in the day

00:31:58.626 --> 00:32:00.429
like bitcoin dogecoin uh

00:32:00.528 --> 00:32:01.769
litecoin I mined some of

00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:03.491
that on my university

00:32:03.551 --> 00:32:05.713
laptop um you know which

00:32:05.733 --> 00:32:06.674
was not great laptop

00:32:07.502 --> 00:32:07.682
Um,

00:32:08.803 --> 00:32:10.804
like those before they were popular

00:32:11.124 --> 00:32:12.003
where you could just run it

00:32:12.084 --> 00:32:13.403
on your laptop in the background,

00:32:13.943 --> 00:32:15.345
you kind of go back to that model.

00:32:15.404 --> 00:32:17.525
Like, I dunno, is that,

00:32:17.865 --> 00:32:18.505
that kind of feels like the

00:32:18.545 --> 00:32:19.244
only kind of thing that's

00:32:19.444 --> 00:32:20.885
ultimately long-term gonna work.

00:32:20.945 --> 00:32:21.145
Right.

00:32:21.165 --> 00:32:23.846
It, it just has to be that level of, uh,

00:32:26.626 --> 00:32:26.747
of,

00:32:26.826 --> 00:32:28.826
of foolproof for end users to actually

00:32:28.846 --> 00:32:29.707
secure the network.

00:32:29.787 --> 00:32:29.987
Right.

00:32:30.007 --> 00:32:32.347
And the buy-in probably

00:32:32.367 --> 00:32:33.087
needs to be pretty low.

00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:35.900
Yeah.

00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:37.019
Well, yeah.

00:32:37.381 --> 00:32:46.002
Um, yeah, I dunno, man.

00:32:46.022 --> 00:32:46.883
I mean, isn't the,

00:32:47.942 --> 00:32:49.763
isn't the ultimate goal

00:32:50.884 --> 00:32:53.085
that everyone can run their, uh,

00:32:53.144 --> 00:32:54.164
validator on a potato,

00:32:55.365 --> 00:32:56.986
like the light client, uh,

00:32:58.999 --> 00:33:02.039
future I mean I think the

00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:04.000
ultimate goal uh go all the

00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:06.382
way back to um I know this

00:33:06.402 --> 00:33:07.221
wasn't kind of said then

00:33:07.241 --> 00:33:07.961
but there was some stuff

00:33:08.001 --> 00:33:09.042
around this kind of subject

00:33:09.103 --> 00:33:10.923
like um when when we had

00:33:10.963 --> 00:33:14.525
henry from penumbra on the

00:33:15.105 --> 00:33:16.246
the probably the end goal

00:33:16.346 --> 00:33:18.105
is is basically as much of

00:33:18.165 --> 00:33:20.507
the stack as possible wants

00:33:20.547 --> 00:33:22.347
to be on the end user's device like

00:33:23.681 --> 00:33:26.604
All of this stuff that we currently run,

00:33:27.023 --> 00:33:27.845
the foundations,

00:33:28.766 --> 00:33:29.926
they write a cracking press

00:33:29.967 --> 00:33:31.828
release on how this is the

00:33:31.868 --> 00:33:33.029
blockchain for the people

00:33:33.069 --> 00:33:34.191
and you will own the blockchain.

00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:36.513
It's like, well, no,

00:33:36.534 --> 00:33:38.335
because you're still like...

00:33:39.372 --> 00:33:40.551
beholden to validators

00:33:40.593 --> 00:33:41.573
running the software and a

00:33:41.633 --> 00:33:42.932
foundation who controls all

00:33:42.952 --> 00:33:45.775
the money um so actually

00:33:45.815 --> 00:33:47.275
it's like probably even

00:33:47.335 --> 00:33:48.395
more centralized than your

00:33:48.435 --> 00:33:50.355
average nation state um

00:33:51.237 --> 00:33:52.156
just because there's fewer

00:33:52.196 --> 00:33:54.678
people involved um so like

00:33:54.798 --> 00:33:56.778
it's kind of like the whole

00:33:56.838 --> 00:33:58.859
foundation side of thing is

00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:01.101
like pretty interesting

00:34:01.141 --> 00:34:05.221
because the ideally there

00:34:05.241 --> 00:34:07.123
wouldn't be one um

00:34:09.126 --> 00:34:12.489
But what's it, you know what,

00:34:12.510 --> 00:34:13.451
this is the one thing that

00:34:13.471 --> 00:34:14.791
I think genuinely,

00:34:14.811 --> 00:34:16.753
I don't know that it will

00:34:16.793 --> 00:34:19.416
get much credit for this because a,

00:34:21.036 --> 00:34:22.077
nobody knows cause it's in

00:34:22.117 --> 00:34:23.619
cosmos and B nobody gives a

00:34:23.659 --> 00:34:24.340
shit as a result.

00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:25.420
But, um,

00:34:25.641 --> 00:34:27.001
I genuinely think that that is one

00:34:27.021 --> 00:34:28.623
of the things that Juno was

00:34:28.762 --> 00:34:30.063
quite interesting for like,

00:34:30.103 --> 00:34:30.925
obviously Bitcoin just

00:34:30.965 --> 00:34:31.905
launched without a foundation.

00:34:32.025 --> 00:34:32.266
Great.

00:34:32.286 --> 00:34:32.827
And that's cool.

00:34:33.286 --> 00:34:34.467
And because of its mechanism,

00:34:34.527 --> 00:34:36.969
it was able to prosper ultimately.

00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:37.951
Um,

00:34:38.614 --> 00:34:43.159
But I think like the, that became very,

00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:43.800
very uncommon.

00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:44.561
And I think actually like

00:34:44.601 --> 00:34:45.702
the kind of Juno model of

00:34:45.742 --> 00:34:46.722
chains launching,

00:34:47.983 --> 00:34:50.186
if it were sustainable to

00:34:50.306 --> 00:34:51.188
launch in that way and

00:34:51.228 --> 00:34:52.208
continue development,

00:34:54.394 --> 00:34:55.856
is actually really interesting.

00:34:55.896 --> 00:34:58.119
I think that's closer to the ideal.

00:34:58.500 --> 00:34:59.961
The problem is that Juno

00:35:00.041 --> 00:35:01.664
launched without a plan.

00:35:01.983 --> 00:35:04.487
It launched without a team,

00:35:05.789 --> 00:35:07.510
a development team anyway,

00:35:08.211 --> 00:35:11.034
and there was no long-term plan.

00:35:12.822 --> 00:35:16.304
thinking around well like

00:35:16.324 --> 00:35:17.804
fine if you end up with

00:35:17.844 --> 00:35:19.146
like a market cap enough

00:35:19.206 --> 00:35:20.246
that you have people whose

00:35:20.407 --> 00:35:22.648
economic incentive is such

00:35:22.668 --> 00:35:23.809
that they will continue to

00:35:23.869 --> 00:35:24.668
work on it and they'll

00:35:24.688 --> 00:35:25.710
build a company and blah

00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:26.789
blah blah like those things

00:35:26.809 --> 00:35:28.831
are possible but like so

00:35:28.871 --> 00:35:29.612
it's back to the kind of

00:35:29.771 --> 00:35:30.512
the central problem of

00:35:30.552 --> 00:35:31.472
proof of stake which is

00:35:31.512 --> 00:35:32.873
that most proof of stake

00:35:32.914 --> 00:35:34.775
networks because of

00:35:35.014 --> 00:35:36.255
something in their stack

00:35:37.434 --> 00:35:38.315
whether that's the core

00:35:38.335 --> 00:35:39.375
software or the economic

00:35:39.414 --> 00:35:41.155
incentives or the tokenomics or anything,

00:35:41.815 --> 00:35:42.755
there's something in their

00:35:42.815 --> 00:35:44.956
stack that assumes my market cap.

00:35:45.697 --> 00:35:46.597
And if it's not there,

00:35:47.416 --> 00:35:48.876
then eventually the wheels come off.

00:35:49.536 --> 00:35:54.577
It's very hard to prove that claim.

00:35:54.617 --> 00:35:55.438
That's why it's just like a

00:35:55.478 --> 00:35:56.918
kind of out there claim.

00:35:57.659 --> 00:35:58.978
You look at so many and you're like,

00:35:59.980 --> 00:36:00.960
it just feels like that's

00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:02.000
an underlying assumption

00:36:02.019 --> 00:36:02.960
that this will be the next

00:36:03.019 --> 00:36:04.300
Ethereum and thus the

00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:05.201
problems will be solved.

00:36:05.240 --> 00:36:07.320
It's like, no, probably not.

00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:10.179
I think, well,

00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.041
there's a couple of things to unpack,

00:36:12.081 --> 00:36:16.382
but you know, on, on the foundations,

00:36:16.422 --> 00:36:20.561
like foundations are, they're like a,

00:36:20.722 --> 00:36:21.802
a catch 22.

00:36:21.802 --> 00:36:25.724
Like you kind of need them to funnel, uh,

00:36:26.784 --> 00:36:28.623
funds into things that

00:36:28.664 --> 00:36:30.065
support the network, right?

00:36:30.945 --> 00:36:31.764
If you don't have them,

00:36:32.264 --> 00:36:34.025
the networks are kind of rudderless,

00:36:34.146 --> 00:36:35.985
but by having them, you,

00:36:36.746 --> 00:36:38.929
then have a situation where

00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:40.469
someone basically controls

00:36:40.489 --> 00:36:43.612
the chain anyway so you

00:36:43.652 --> 00:36:45.333
can't be decentralized but

00:36:45.954 --> 00:36:46.655
I mean we've talked about

00:36:46.675 --> 00:36:47.715
this before as well like

00:36:47.775 --> 00:36:48.996
whether or not things

00:36:49.077 --> 00:36:50.237
necessarily need to be

00:36:50.277 --> 00:36:51.338
decentralized and that

00:36:51.378 --> 00:36:52.280
really depends on what

00:36:52.300 --> 00:36:54.280
their purpose is um yeah

00:36:55.442 --> 00:36:57.684
but I mean all of all of

00:36:57.744 --> 00:36:59.286
these chains are like just

00:36:59.666 --> 00:37:00.927
beta software problem

00:37:00.967 --> 00:37:02.108
solving like everyone's got

00:37:02.148 --> 00:37:03.228
the newest hotness every

00:37:03.268 --> 00:37:04.150
other week at the moment

00:37:04.909 --> 00:37:06.050
and a lot of people just

00:37:06.110 --> 00:37:07.490
copy each other and get

00:37:07.550 --> 00:37:08.771
something out there to fund

00:37:08.871 --> 00:37:12.673
further development um when

00:37:13.173 --> 00:37:14.014
you know like a lot of

00:37:14.034 --> 00:37:14.755
these things aren't going

00:37:14.775 --> 00:37:16.135
to survive and just be big

00:37:16.175 --> 00:37:17.376
ghost chains at some point

00:37:18.315 --> 00:37:20.898
and it's hard to like you

00:37:21.097 --> 00:37:21.938
know everyone wants to be

00:37:21.958 --> 00:37:23.039
the next ethereum but

00:37:23.418 --> 00:37:25.300
really at this point what

00:37:25.340 --> 00:37:27.061
would you need to actually

00:37:27.121 --> 00:37:28.581
be the next ethereum yeah

00:37:28.621 --> 00:37:29.541
like everyone's always

00:37:29.561 --> 00:37:30.402
going to turn back to

00:37:30.442 --> 00:37:31.543
ethereum and say well

00:37:32.956 --> 00:37:34.498
How can we do this new

00:37:34.557 --> 00:37:36.199
hotness but on Ethereum

00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:40.644
where all the money is?

00:37:41.485 --> 00:37:43.067
Unless you offer something

00:37:43.288 --> 00:37:44.429
fundamentally different

00:37:44.449 --> 00:37:45.730
that users will actually

00:37:45.769 --> 00:37:47.271
gravitate to and you'll get

00:37:47.311 --> 00:37:48.052
mass adoption.

00:37:49.141 --> 00:37:50.163
that's the only way you

00:37:50.563 --> 00:37:51.764
become the next ethereum

00:37:51.844 --> 00:37:54.128
right and yeah well well

00:37:54.148 --> 00:37:55.289
it's it's the next it's the

00:37:55.349 --> 00:37:56.371
next because it's not

00:37:56.391 --> 00:37:57.112
necessarily the next

00:37:57.132 --> 00:37:59.173
decision it's just the

00:37:59.233 --> 00:38:01.195
thing right because yeah

00:38:01.657 --> 00:38:03.099
because originally like you

00:38:03.139 --> 00:38:04.880
know uh bitcoin was the

00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:06.262
next because it wasn't

00:38:06.583 --> 00:38:08.465
paper money right and then

00:38:09.405 --> 00:38:10.666
There's things that Bitcoin

00:38:10.686 --> 00:38:12.668
just fundamentally can't do,

00:38:12.748 --> 00:38:13.748
although it's a completely

00:38:13.807 --> 00:38:15.969
new category of finance.

00:38:16.650 --> 00:38:18.931
Then you have Ethereum came

00:38:18.971 --> 00:38:20.271
along and it was the next

00:38:20.452 --> 00:38:21.472
because it did something

00:38:21.532 --> 00:38:22.492
completely different to

00:38:22.552 --> 00:38:24.353
what Bitcoin was doing.

00:38:24.373 --> 00:38:26.175
It still had a token like Bitcoin,

00:38:26.934 --> 00:38:28.215
and it was still mined in a

00:38:28.275 --> 00:38:30.117
similar way to Bitcoin,

00:38:30.217 --> 00:38:33.398
but it was the smart contract thing.

00:38:33.438 --> 00:38:34.139
That was the next.

00:38:36.766 --> 00:38:39.427
don't know maybe like the zk

00:38:39.447 --> 00:38:40.708
stuff and privacy might

00:38:41.108 --> 00:38:42.588
might be the next now but

00:38:43.509 --> 00:38:45.608
um you know in terms of all

00:38:45.628 --> 00:38:46.670
the other things like going

00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:49.190
faster uh you know

00:38:49.389 --> 00:38:50.690
different ways of doing the

00:38:50.731 --> 00:38:52.130
same thing is probably not

00:38:52.190 --> 00:38:54.532
going to be the next no I

00:38:54.572 --> 00:38:57.052
mean I i kind of put my my

00:38:57.112 --> 00:38:57.932
money on the table I think

00:38:57.972 --> 00:38:59.193
it's just a fundamental

00:38:59.253 --> 00:39:00.653
reorganization of what is

00:39:00.713 --> 00:39:02.393
important about this

00:39:02.454 --> 00:39:03.713
technology is the thing

00:39:03.753 --> 00:39:04.795
needs to happen next and I

00:39:04.835 --> 00:39:05.594
just don't think

00:39:06.744 --> 00:39:09.905
I think that in the longer term,

00:39:10.284 --> 00:39:11.985
people will decide which

00:39:12.166 --> 00:39:14.106
bit of the technology is useful to them,

00:39:14.967 --> 00:39:15.507
payments,

00:39:16.288 --> 00:39:17.887
building economic systems with

00:39:17.907 --> 00:39:19.068
smart contracts, whatever,

00:39:19.088 --> 00:39:20.789
and they'll pick that

00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:21.789
component and then they

00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:22.809
won't use a blockchain.

00:39:24.231 --> 00:39:25.391
I think the blockchain bit

00:39:26.271 --> 00:39:28.092
is the bit that will go away.

00:39:28.431 --> 00:39:29.873
I don't think blockchains have a future.

00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:32.440
I think the cryptography does.

00:39:32.601 --> 00:39:34.521
I think the consensus mechanisms do.

00:39:34.541 --> 00:39:39.364
I think the protocol focus

00:39:39.403 --> 00:39:41.304
and the way that the protocols work does.

00:39:41.744 --> 00:39:43.625
And I think that's why IBC

00:39:43.686 --> 00:39:44.485
is super important because

00:39:44.505 --> 00:39:45.706
I think there's a lot of

00:39:45.726 --> 00:39:46.746
things you can learn from IBC.

00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:49.882
to build a meta network

00:39:50.161 --> 00:39:51.543
where the network is what

00:39:51.563 --> 00:39:52.726
we currently look at as the

00:39:52.766 --> 00:39:53.726
cosmos ecosystem.

00:39:54.166 --> 00:39:56.230
Like I think that model where you go, okay,

00:39:56.911 --> 00:39:59.414
what would happen if you built IBC first,

00:40:00.135 --> 00:40:02.277
if you built IBC first and you were like,

00:40:04.326 --> 00:40:05.467
This is the most important

00:40:05.527 --> 00:40:06.407
thing that we're building

00:40:06.447 --> 00:40:07.648
and we want to get it

00:40:07.728 --> 00:40:09.309
adopted for a couple of use cases.

00:40:09.449 --> 00:40:11.070
And then you get a couple of

00:40:11.130 --> 00:40:12.271
people who have actually

00:40:12.331 --> 00:40:14.172
good use cases to then

00:40:14.213 --> 00:40:16.875
adopt it and kind of build

00:40:16.894 --> 00:40:17.815
it from the inside out.

00:40:18.255 --> 00:40:18.476
I mean,

00:40:18.496 --> 00:40:20.338
and I'm not saying that that's like

00:40:20.458 --> 00:40:21.358
not what's happened with

00:40:21.438 --> 00:40:22.880
IBC and I'm not saying the people that...

00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:24.760
work on ibc haven't thought

00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:25.822
of that as a strategy I'm

00:40:25.862 --> 00:40:26.702
not trying to trash on

00:40:26.742 --> 00:40:27.583
anybody I'm just kind of

00:40:27.643 --> 00:40:28.384
observing that like

00:40:28.423 --> 00:40:29.384
fundamentally on a kind of

00:40:29.965 --> 00:40:31.306
this causal basis this

00:40:31.346 --> 00:40:32.085
happened and this happened

00:40:32.106 --> 00:40:33.567
and this happened tend to

00:40:33.586 --> 00:40:35.509
vent cosmos sdk ibc right

00:40:35.548 --> 00:40:37.730
that's the order and when

00:40:37.769 --> 00:40:38.891
things have a certain order

00:40:38.911 --> 00:40:40.152
there's always an implied

00:40:40.211 --> 00:40:41.472
set of decisions that are

00:40:41.532 --> 00:40:43.034
grandfathered in right by

00:40:43.054 --> 00:40:45.556
the by the process every step and

00:40:47.273 --> 00:40:47.413
Yeah.

00:40:47.432 --> 00:40:48.233
I'm just kind of like,

00:40:48.492 --> 00:40:49.393
and I know that there are

00:40:49.434 --> 00:40:50.094
networks that work like

00:40:50.114 --> 00:40:51.934
this arbitrum stuff like that.

00:40:51.974 --> 00:40:53.014
You know, this is not a new,

00:40:53.034 --> 00:40:54.594
it's not a big brain idea.

00:40:54.896 --> 00:40:55.436
I think there's,

00:40:56.795 --> 00:40:57.456
there's quite a few

00:40:57.476 --> 00:40:58.597
different ways of cutting it.

00:40:58.757 --> 00:41:01.538
I don't, I think the, the, the,

00:41:01.617 --> 00:41:02.597
the blockchain being like

00:41:02.617 --> 00:41:03.958
an implementation detail

00:41:04.978 --> 00:41:06.838
that nobody cares about is like,

00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:09.619
that feels to me more compelling.

00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:10.041
So I don't think,

00:41:10.161 --> 00:41:11.800
I don't think currently how

00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:13.121
we do blockchains is bad.

00:41:13.141 --> 00:41:13.181
Um,

00:41:15.494 --> 00:41:17.137
I don't think end users care

00:41:17.237 --> 00:41:17.978
about blockchains.

00:41:17.998 --> 00:41:19.059
They care about certain

00:41:19.179 --> 00:41:20.440
outcomes that they are told

00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:21.380
blockchains deliver,

00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:22.762
which they don't always actually deliver.

00:41:23.583 --> 00:41:24.704
And a lot of the value is

00:41:24.864 --> 00:41:27.547
actually in the other bits in the stack,

00:41:27.568 --> 00:41:28.688
like consensus mechanism,

00:41:28.728 --> 00:41:32.333
like building smart contract stuff,

00:41:32.432 --> 00:41:34.054
like settling payments,

00:41:34.175 --> 00:41:34.875
all that kind of thing.

00:41:35.456 --> 00:41:36.938
And there's just a lot of

00:41:36.978 --> 00:41:38.059
different parts of that

00:41:39.307 --> 00:41:40.248
like you know if you were if

00:41:40.268 --> 00:41:41.128
you were in a big company

00:41:41.168 --> 00:41:42.489
and you had a user flow and

00:41:42.510 --> 00:41:44.210
you were like I want to

00:41:44.291 --> 00:41:45.251
make a payment and you

00:41:45.271 --> 00:41:46.452
would like map out all the

00:41:46.492 --> 00:41:47.793
steps and all the pages the

00:41:47.893 --> 00:41:48.974
user needs to go through to

00:41:49.014 --> 00:41:49.693
go through that all the

00:41:49.773 --> 00:41:51.574
actions they take and like

00:41:51.614 --> 00:41:53.695
right now we're just like I

00:41:53.775 --> 00:41:55.217
need currency and you're

00:41:55.237 --> 00:41:56.577
like oh damn we failed at

00:41:56.617 --> 00:41:59.338
step one oh no like there's

00:41:59.358 --> 00:42:00.099
there's so many different

00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:01.400
pieces I mean back to like

00:42:01.420 --> 00:42:02.280
we're early there are so

00:42:02.300 --> 00:42:03.681
many pieces of the puzzle that don't like

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:06.800
don't exist yet or like don't exist in a,

00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:07.681
in a, in a good way.

00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.762
And like the, the fucking state of,

00:42:10.202 --> 00:42:11.762
of stable coins is like that.

00:42:11.902 --> 00:42:12.902
Like I fucking hate them.

00:42:14.023 --> 00:42:14.202
Yeah.

00:42:14.242 --> 00:42:14.483
Whatever.

00:42:14.523 --> 00:42:15.382
Anyway, not important.

00:42:15.844 --> 00:42:17.844
Um, but I didn't know there was just,

00:42:17.864 --> 00:42:18.224
there's so,

00:42:18.244 --> 00:42:19.425
there's so much interesting stuff,

00:42:19.465 --> 00:42:20.425
like on the theory side, um,

00:42:22.025 --> 00:42:23.565
like in that direction, but like,

00:42:24.706 --> 00:42:25.766
I have no idea how it's

00:42:25.786 --> 00:42:26.586
going to thrash out in the

00:42:26.907 --> 00:42:28.108
real world or whether it will.

00:42:29.248 --> 00:42:29.347
Um,

00:42:31.255 --> 00:42:31.474
yeah.

00:42:31.554 --> 00:42:32.275
And it's also interesting,

00:42:32.295 --> 00:42:32.976
like you were saying on the

00:42:32.996 --> 00:42:33.775
privacy side of things,

00:42:33.795 --> 00:42:34.797
like how long we've had

00:42:34.836 --> 00:42:37.257
Zcash and how niche that

00:42:37.277 --> 00:42:38.577
technology still kind of is.

00:42:38.657 --> 00:42:38.858
Like,

00:42:39.418 --> 00:42:41.079
I think Schultz is kind of right that

00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:43.300
it's a good bet for

00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:44.561
something that will be

00:42:44.601 --> 00:42:46.621
really important next, but.

00:42:47.842 --> 00:42:48.842
I think it's kind of hard

00:42:48.902 --> 00:42:50.943
for it to proliferate, um,

00:42:51.262 --> 00:42:52.583
given like the history of

00:42:52.923 --> 00:42:53.824
people getting arrested.

00:42:54.784 --> 00:42:55.625
And I think that that

00:42:55.644 --> 00:42:57.706
spooked people and stifled

00:42:57.726 --> 00:42:58.885
development for a fair while.

00:43:00.067 --> 00:43:00.146
Um,

00:43:01.563 --> 00:43:03.425
I mean, that's kind of like the angle,

00:43:03.445 --> 00:43:05.166
I guess the angle I've come

00:43:05.206 --> 00:43:06.427
to on that is like, you know,

00:43:07.027 --> 00:43:07.766
what do I work on?

00:43:07.827 --> 00:43:09.389
I work on digital cash, right?

00:43:09.588 --> 00:43:10.568
Really, really specifically,

00:43:10.608 --> 00:43:11.309
like it's the thing that

00:43:11.349 --> 00:43:15.672
I'm part of a research group on.

00:43:16.072 --> 00:43:17.693
And I think it's because you

00:43:17.793 --> 00:43:19.795
can talk about cash

00:43:21.135 --> 00:43:23.115
and people like you can

00:43:23.155 --> 00:43:24.217
there is a certain kind of

00:43:25.217 --> 00:43:26.318
heavy on the heavy hand on

00:43:26.338 --> 00:43:27.759
the regulation mindset that

00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:29.179
that hates cash right that

00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:30.101
kind of classic meme of

00:43:30.141 --> 00:43:31.541
like they wouldn't invent

00:43:31.581 --> 00:43:33.722
cash tomorrow right it's

00:43:33.862 --> 00:43:35.083
you know it's trustless

00:43:35.284 --> 00:43:37.045
it's always fungible even

00:43:37.085 --> 00:43:39.327
if it's been stolen um it's

00:43:39.407 --> 00:43:41.128
first spend anonymous in a

00:43:41.168 --> 00:43:42.168
lot of situations that

00:43:42.208 --> 00:43:43.028
there's just all sorts of

00:43:43.070 --> 00:43:43.750
reasons why you wouldn't

00:43:43.789 --> 00:43:45.630
want it um and you know

00:43:45.891 --> 00:43:47.311
like graver's book debt has

00:43:47.371 --> 00:43:48.012
a whole bunch of

00:43:48.612 --> 00:43:50.353
worrying societal problems

00:43:50.414 --> 00:43:51.474
that can happen when you

00:43:51.514 --> 00:43:52.574
have the proliferation of

00:43:52.675 --> 00:43:54.016
cash usage over credit.

00:43:54.036 --> 00:43:54.916
So there's also an

00:43:55.076 --> 00:43:55.996
equilibrium that needs to

00:43:56.016 --> 00:43:57.097
happen in an economy for

00:43:57.117 --> 00:43:59.478
like the good of all actors

00:43:59.518 --> 00:43:59.998
in the economy.

00:44:00.978 --> 00:44:01.199
But

00:44:02.335 --> 00:44:03.715
there are a bunch of low

00:44:03.775 --> 00:44:06.637
trust economic transactions

00:44:06.677 --> 00:44:07.818
where cash is a really,

00:44:07.998 --> 00:44:09.099
really good thing for the

00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:10.059
average consumer.

00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:12.081
And I think you can make

00:44:12.141 --> 00:44:13.802
that argument to a

00:44:13.842 --> 00:44:15.182
government or a regulator.

00:44:15.563 --> 00:44:17.364
And because everybody knows what cash is,

00:44:17.403 --> 00:44:18.985
you can so easily explain

00:44:19.045 --> 00:44:20.766
why it's reasonable to

00:44:20.846 --> 00:44:22.206
expect to use cash.

00:44:23.443 --> 00:44:24.983
um even in a digital space

00:44:25.925 --> 00:44:27.666
and you kind of see a

00:44:27.686 --> 00:44:28.407
version of this you know

00:44:28.447 --> 00:44:29.487
like how you get an online

00:44:29.527 --> 00:44:30.427
bank and they you can

00:44:30.467 --> 00:44:31.628
usually get like a one-time

00:44:31.648 --> 00:44:35.150
um a one-time debit card

00:44:35.251 --> 00:44:39.793
code yeah yeah like it

00:44:39.813 --> 00:44:42.436
blows up yeah we'll say

00:44:42.496 --> 00:44:43.637
like a lot of banks do this

00:44:43.677 --> 00:44:45.077
thing I think apple pay

00:44:45.117 --> 00:44:45.898
might do it where you get a

00:44:46.059 --> 00:44:48.500
one-time use of a so you

00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:50.802
can like put it into a like oh no they're

00:44:51.516 --> 00:44:51.876
Yeah,

00:44:51.916 --> 00:44:55.438
they have an algorithmic card number.

00:44:56.217 --> 00:44:58.278
You never use the same card number twice.

00:44:58.838 --> 00:45:00.380
So there are various things

00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:01.239
where... So obviously,

00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:02.199
that doesn't give you any privacy,

00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:02.559
whatever.

00:45:02.619 --> 00:45:04.960
That's actually about counterparty trust,

00:45:05.021 --> 00:45:05.221
right?

00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:07.061
But there are a whole bunch

00:45:07.101 --> 00:45:07.842
of things where people

00:45:07.943 --> 00:45:09.023
recognize that there's a

00:45:09.202 --> 00:45:11.784
user risk and they innovate a solution.

00:45:12.003 --> 00:45:13.824
And to be clear,

00:45:13.864 --> 00:45:14.764
cash doesn't protect you in

00:45:14.784 --> 00:45:15.304
that situation.

00:45:15.324 --> 00:45:15.945
I'm not saying it does.

00:45:16.326 --> 00:45:16.505
But

00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:18.681
I don't know.

00:45:19.141 --> 00:45:20.302
It feels like if you could,

00:45:20.702 --> 00:45:22.063
in the same way as that kind of problem,

00:45:22.083 --> 00:45:22.903
that counterparty risk

00:45:22.923 --> 00:45:23.923
problem where they're like, right, okay,

00:45:23.943 --> 00:45:24.864
we're going to solve it with this.

00:45:25.284 --> 00:45:26.045
There are a whole bunch of

00:45:26.085 --> 00:45:27.065
problems where I think if

00:45:27.106 --> 00:45:28.306
you illustrated it with a

00:45:28.346 --> 00:45:30.226
good enough example and you said, oh,

00:45:30.327 --> 00:45:31.708
as it happens, cash solves this,

00:45:32.148 --> 00:45:33.469
you can make that argument

00:45:34.329 --> 00:45:35.449
and you can get digital cash.

00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:38.751
And then if you strip away

00:45:38.952 --> 00:45:40.293
all of the like really

00:45:40.353 --> 00:45:41.733
intense vibes of something

00:45:41.753 --> 00:45:43.474
like Zcash to being like, no,

00:45:43.494 --> 00:45:44.454
it's just like normal cash.

00:45:45.682 --> 00:45:46.083
I don't know.

00:45:46.322 --> 00:45:47.184
I don't know.

00:45:47.304 --> 00:45:48.625
Maybe you get privacy.

00:45:48.764 --> 00:45:49.125
I don't know.

00:45:50.125 --> 00:45:51.166
Maybe I'm huffing the hopium.

00:45:52.967 --> 00:45:56.889
Maybe there needs to be,

00:45:57.949 --> 00:45:59.871
we'll call it phrase chain

00:46:00.811 --> 00:46:04.012
and phrase chain code name cash.

00:46:04.952 --> 00:46:09.775
And we'll just connect Cassandra to IBC.

00:46:09.795 --> 00:46:09.956
Okay.

00:46:11.974 --> 00:46:13.034
um I know how much of a fan

00:46:13.074 --> 00:46:15.418
of Cassandra you are uh

00:46:15.557 --> 00:46:18.340
yeah uh well no it's

00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:20.623
actually actually um yeah I

00:46:20.663 --> 00:46:21.744
low-key have to design a

00:46:21.784 --> 00:46:22.644
blockchain at the moment

00:46:22.744 --> 00:46:25.067
it's a long story um I kind

00:46:25.108 --> 00:46:26.208
of think of using rocks DB

00:46:26.248 --> 00:46:27.670
as the storage engine but

00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:31.934
um yeah so just don't make

00:46:31.974 --> 00:46:32.996
it a blockchain make it

00:46:34.271 --> 00:46:36.373
An immutable instance of

00:46:36.793 --> 00:46:39.436
Cassandra rewrite Cassandra, uh,

00:46:39.476 --> 00:46:42.199
that connects to IBC and a wormhole.

00:46:42.898 --> 00:46:44.000
It's kind of not a blockchain,

00:46:44.019 --> 00:46:45.121
but it's kind of a blockchain.

00:46:45.161 --> 00:46:46.382
What is a blockchain though?

00:46:46.702 --> 00:46:51.626
Like, uh, like I guess the,

00:46:51.686 --> 00:46:52.686
the simplest version of blockchain,

00:46:52.746 --> 00:46:52.907
right.

00:46:52.947 --> 00:46:55.289
Is that the previous you have a hash,

00:46:55.369 --> 00:46:56.789
it points back to its previous, right?

00:46:56.831 --> 00:46:57.210
That's it.

00:46:57.251 --> 00:46:57.951
That's a blockchain.

00:46:58.592 --> 00:46:59.532
Does it have to be a memory?

00:46:59.552 --> 00:46:59.632
Yeah.

00:46:59.733 --> 00:47:02.054
It's like, it's, it's immutable state.

00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:03.842
right but you have a

00:47:03.882 --> 00:47:04.702
blockchain that's just in

00:47:04.742 --> 00:47:05.762
memory it doesn't have to

00:47:05.802 --> 00:47:10.365
be saved anywhere what do

00:47:10.385 --> 00:47:13.286
you mean well so if I uh

00:47:13.407 --> 00:47:14.148
just created a bunch of

00:47:14.188 --> 00:47:16.469
blocks right in memory and

00:47:16.509 --> 00:47:17.730
didn't persist them to disk

00:47:17.789 --> 00:47:18.791
or anything like it'd still

00:47:18.811 --> 00:47:20.052
be a blockchain it's still

00:47:20.072 --> 00:47:21.271
a list of hashes you can

00:47:21.291 --> 00:47:22.313
still navigate them

00:47:22.452 --> 00:47:26.175
traverse backwards to what

00:47:26.195 --> 00:47:28.376
end you if you you know

00:47:29.409 --> 00:47:30.989
You can lose that quite easily.

00:47:31.010 --> 00:47:33.831
I don't understand.

00:47:34.112 --> 00:47:35.313
I'm just kind of pointing

00:47:35.432 --> 00:47:37.755
out the assumptions.

00:47:37.775 --> 00:47:39.036
When we say blockchain,

00:47:39.315 --> 00:47:40.177
we actually mean

00:47:40.697 --> 00:47:42.737
distributed immutable ledger.

00:47:44.059 --> 00:47:46.041
We don't mean blockchain.

00:47:46.820 --> 00:47:49.143
A blockchain doesn't

00:47:49.182 --> 00:47:50.384
necessarily have to be

00:47:51.423 --> 00:47:52.244
distributed at all.

00:47:52.824 --> 00:47:53.945
You can have a blockchain

00:47:53.965 --> 00:47:55.186
just run on one thing.

00:47:55.965 --> 00:47:56.985
can do away with the whole

00:47:57.425 --> 00:47:58.385
validators and everything

00:47:58.425 --> 00:48:01.565
and just have a single

00:48:01.606 --> 00:48:03.686
instance of a chain that

00:48:03.726 --> 00:48:05.266
just looks at the previous

00:48:05.306 --> 00:48:08.367
block and verifies it well

00:48:08.407 --> 00:48:10.688
so you can also have when

00:48:10.748 --> 00:48:13.409
you like so this is because

00:48:13.489 --> 00:48:15.210
I've spent too much of the

00:48:15.250 --> 00:48:16.909
last month reading papers

00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:18.510
on consensus and

00:48:20.916 --> 00:48:22.320
There's so many interesting

00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:23.284
decision points, basically,

00:48:23.344 --> 00:48:24.869
about when you...

00:48:28.063 --> 00:48:30.125
So obviously, if you take performance,

00:48:30.625 --> 00:48:31.885
we're talking about purely theoretical,

00:48:31.925 --> 00:48:32.065
right?

00:48:32.085 --> 00:48:33.746
So take performance out of the picture.

00:48:33.806 --> 00:48:34.788
That's really important

00:48:34.827 --> 00:48:36.889
before I say anything obviously dumb.

00:48:38.409 --> 00:48:40.251
But the decision points at

00:48:40.311 --> 00:48:43.594
which you decide to tell

00:48:43.833 --> 00:48:44.815
other nodes in a

00:48:44.855 --> 00:48:46.496
hypothetical network about

00:48:46.576 --> 00:48:47.657
what you know about the

00:48:47.717 --> 00:48:49.697
world and how you replicate

00:48:49.737 --> 00:48:50.958
that state and that state

00:48:50.978 --> 00:48:53.641
machine and everything is really,

00:48:53.681 --> 00:48:54.581
really fascinating.

00:48:55.001 --> 00:48:56.021
All of the things you can do

00:48:57.105 --> 00:48:58.266
when you start relaxing

00:48:58.307 --> 00:48:59.750
assumptions of which like I

00:48:59.931 --> 00:49:00.853
mean I mean I guess like

00:49:00.932 --> 00:49:02.114
maybe this is just me I

00:49:03.498 --> 00:49:05.661
after being working in the

00:49:05.681 --> 00:49:06.824
space in this particular

00:49:08.099 --> 00:49:09.260
particularly like mainly on

00:49:09.521 --> 00:49:10.760
one version of a blockchain

00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:12.282
stack like as soon as you

00:49:12.322 --> 00:49:13.641
just start throwing out all

00:49:13.702 --> 00:49:14.583
the assumptions about the

00:49:14.603 --> 00:49:15.983
thing that you've worked on

00:49:16.023 --> 00:49:17.184
and around for three years

00:49:17.844 --> 00:49:18.905
and you go okay like let's

00:49:18.965 --> 00:49:20.045
relax this to being one

00:49:20.085 --> 00:49:21.085
node let's relax this to

00:49:21.105 --> 00:49:22.226
being whatever let's say

00:49:22.266 --> 00:49:24.186
that they only broadcast at

00:49:24.246 --> 00:49:25.387
these points let's say that

00:49:25.427 --> 00:49:26.708
they gossip this or let's

00:49:26.748 --> 00:49:27.748
say that that's a merkle

00:49:27.788 --> 00:49:30.608
tree and it's cumulative so

00:49:30.688 --> 00:49:31.769
we won't we won't we don't

00:49:31.809 --> 00:49:32.769
even give a shit about the

00:49:32.809 --> 00:49:33.791
transactions we don't give

00:49:33.831 --> 00:49:34.751
a shit about ordering we

00:49:34.771 --> 00:49:36.612
just put it in a tree um

00:49:37.798 --> 00:49:38.418
It's really,

00:49:38.438 --> 00:49:39.559
really interesting to see how

00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:41.121
people solve all these

00:49:41.141 --> 00:49:42.041
individual problems,

00:49:42.481 --> 00:49:43.262
especially things like

00:49:43.342 --> 00:49:44.342
asynchrony and whatever.

00:49:45.264 --> 00:49:46.605
All these mechanisms are

00:49:46.664 --> 00:49:48.746
just there to create a

00:49:49.525 --> 00:49:51.208
distributed trustless environment.

00:49:51.467 --> 00:49:52.809
If you, for example,

00:49:52.829 --> 00:49:53.909
just wanted to make a

00:49:55.429 --> 00:49:56.911
blockchain that just is

00:49:56.971 --> 00:49:58.251
completely trusted by the

00:49:58.291 --> 00:50:00.813
operator and runs on one machine,

00:50:01.034 --> 00:50:01.994
you can do away with so

00:50:02.014 --> 00:50:02.735
much of that overhead.

00:50:04.396 --> 00:50:05.538
Because it's only,

00:50:05.878 --> 00:50:06.719
a lot of that overhead is

00:50:06.918 --> 00:50:08.900
only there so that it can

00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:10.181
be trustless and distributed.

00:50:11.202 --> 00:50:13.565
But you don't even need,

00:50:14.144 --> 00:50:15.065
if you just completely

00:50:15.126 --> 00:50:16.106
trust the previous state,

00:50:16.146 --> 00:50:17.128
you don't even need to

00:50:17.927 --> 00:50:19.210
include a hash of it in the,

00:50:19.429 --> 00:50:20.911
like if you only care about

00:50:20.951 --> 00:50:21.592
the current state,

00:50:23.934 --> 00:50:25.614
I can't see why you would even need to.

00:50:26.436 --> 00:50:27.315
Well, you just need a database,

00:50:27.335 --> 00:50:28.456
you don't need a blockchain, obviously,

00:50:28.516 --> 00:50:28.918
but yeah.

00:50:32.250 --> 00:50:33.391
But if you don't care about current state,

00:50:33.431 --> 00:50:33.590
right?

00:50:33.630 --> 00:50:33.931
You just,

00:50:34.030 --> 00:50:35.271
you're just doing updates in place,

00:50:35.331 --> 00:50:35.492
right?

00:50:35.512 --> 00:50:36.172
At which point you don't

00:50:36.193 --> 00:50:36.773
need to blockchain.

00:50:36.833 --> 00:50:37.072
In fact,

00:50:37.092 --> 00:50:38.693
you could just do that as a file on disk.

00:50:38.853 --> 00:50:39.635
Like, yeah,

00:50:39.755 --> 00:50:40.695
as I'm thinking about it just

00:50:40.735 --> 00:50:41.835
becomes less and less like

00:50:41.876 --> 00:50:43.777
a blockchain if it's only, if there's no,

00:50:44.197 --> 00:50:45.458
so yeah, really the, the whole,

00:50:45.619 --> 00:50:46.838
the whole training is only

00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:48.880
to create the trustless distributed.

00:50:48.900 --> 00:50:50.242
So, well, the other thing,

00:50:50.342 --> 00:50:51.663
the other thing is to create, right.

00:50:51.842 --> 00:50:54.403
Is that you having a history,

00:50:54.503 --> 00:50:56.626
like having entropy, um,

00:50:58.567 --> 00:51:00.429
Having an arrow of time

00:51:00.909 --> 00:51:08.298
allows you to create... Sorry,

00:51:08.358 --> 00:51:09.079
this is going to get super,

00:51:09.099 --> 00:51:09.760
super pretentious.

00:51:12.661 --> 00:51:13.983
There is a sense in which a

00:51:14.342 --> 00:51:15.463
system that is completely

00:51:15.523 --> 00:51:18.706
zero trust needs to have

00:51:18.806 --> 00:51:20.487
something outside of itself,

00:51:20.547 --> 00:51:21.548
something exogenous to

00:51:21.608 --> 00:51:23.750
itself in order to even be

00:51:23.829 --> 00:51:25.271
able to be referenced, right?

00:51:25.311 --> 00:51:27.273
To have any sense of value

00:51:27.592 --> 00:51:29.594
or external reference or anything.

00:51:29.954 --> 00:51:31.175
And like the hour of time is

00:51:31.215 --> 00:51:32.217
like important in that.

00:51:32.637 --> 00:51:33.177
And there's like...

00:51:34.797 --> 00:51:35.978
there's like a needlessly

00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:37.739
complex piece of thinking

00:51:37.798 --> 00:51:39.559
which is that so you know

00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:40.619
like proof of work right

00:51:40.739 --> 00:51:41.800
it's just that you have

00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:42.960
processing power outside

00:51:42.981 --> 00:51:44.021
the system it secures the

00:51:44.041 --> 00:51:45.141
network proof of stake the

00:51:45.222 --> 00:51:46.543
economic stuff secures the

00:51:46.583 --> 00:51:48.684
network happy days right um

00:51:49.543 --> 00:51:50.483
but like the part of

00:51:52.565 --> 00:51:53.726
Basically, the hour of time,

00:51:53.945 --> 00:51:55.365
like knowing previous states,

00:51:57.266 --> 00:51:58.728
is actually quite desirable

00:51:59.088 --> 00:52:01.829
in a crash fault tolerant system.

00:52:01.869 --> 00:52:03.510
So let's say we know all of

00:52:03.530 --> 00:52:04.389
the operators who are going

00:52:04.409 --> 00:52:05.570
to run the network, right?

00:52:06.952 --> 00:52:07.831
We start a company,

00:52:07.851 --> 00:52:09.452
it's called Knowles Big Bulls.

00:52:10.452 --> 00:52:12.155
um enterprise software

00:52:12.195 --> 00:52:13.916
company it's not a good

00:52:13.936 --> 00:52:16.418
name we can work on that um

00:52:16.458 --> 00:52:18.581
you know it's an umbrella

00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:20.762
company of null's big balls

00:52:21.543 --> 00:52:23.065
blockchain company I guess

00:52:23.704 --> 00:52:27.648
um and uh what we build is

00:52:27.668 --> 00:52:29.751
uh ledger software for

00:52:29.831 --> 00:52:33.134
multinational companies right um now

00:52:34.610 --> 00:52:35.291
It turns out,

00:52:35.331 --> 00:52:38.032
so we get this big deal with Megacorp,

00:52:38.472 --> 00:52:39.554
Widget Corp, whatever,

00:52:40.293 --> 00:52:43.255
and they're just like, hey,

00:52:43.356 --> 00:52:44.695
whatever nationality I say

00:52:44.755 --> 00:52:45.436
here is going to be

00:52:45.476 --> 00:52:46.697
offensive to that nationality.

00:52:46.777 --> 00:52:47.898
I'm sorry in advance.

00:52:48.818 --> 00:52:50.179
I'm just going to pick one.

00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:51.880
Norwegian.

00:52:52.748 --> 00:52:53.909
This is not reflective of

00:52:54.009 --> 00:52:55.570
Norwegian technical aptitude.

00:52:55.670 --> 00:52:56.150
I'm sorry.

00:52:56.190 --> 00:52:57.670
It's just an illustrative example.

00:52:57.851 --> 00:53:00.293
So you're selling this into

00:53:00.333 --> 00:53:03.235
the Australian office of Widget Corp,

00:53:03.375 --> 00:53:03.574
right?

00:53:03.635 --> 00:53:04.976
Which is obviously Widget

00:53:05.016 --> 00:53:07.818
Corp are a famous Australian company.

00:53:07.838 --> 00:53:08.719
They're very big, aren't they?

00:53:09.634 --> 00:53:12.257
Um, in Australia, but they have a big,

00:53:12.577 --> 00:53:13.918
big Norwegian office as well.

00:53:13.958 --> 00:53:14.137
Right.

00:53:14.197 --> 00:53:15.659
And so you're talking to the,

00:53:16.019 --> 00:53:17.061
the Australia,

00:53:17.101 --> 00:53:20.925
the CEO in Australia behind his big desk.

00:53:21.885 --> 00:53:24.708
And he says, no,

00:53:25.429 --> 00:53:26.849
what I'm really concerned about.

00:53:26.869 --> 00:53:27.650
This is great.

00:53:27.710 --> 00:53:29.092
This software you've got is great.

00:53:29.452 --> 00:53:31.614
It's crash fault, tolerant, happy days.

00:53:31.675 --> 00:53:32.675
We're not going to lose any

00:53:32.715 --> 00:53:33.735
of these invoices.

00:53:33.835 --> 00:53:34.317
Amazing.

00:53:35.193 --> 00:53:36.335
What I'm worried about is

00:53:36.394 --> 00:53:37.737
that the Norwegian office,

00:53:37.757 --> 00:53:39.057
they're a bunch of yahoos.

00:53:39.398 --> 00:53:40.039
You know what I mean?

00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:42.541
They are dingoes.

00:53:42.561 --> 00:53:45.224
I don't know what, whatever.

00:53:45.244 --> 00:53:47.367
And also what would an

00:53:47.407 --> 00:53:48.427
Australian person say if

00:53:48.447 --> 00:53:49.088
they're trying to make

00:53:49.128 --> 00:53:50.889
somebody like be shady to

00:53:50.929 --> 00:53:52.271
somebody in a business scenario,

00:53:53.532 --> 00:53:54.594
they're not just gonna call them cunts.

00:53:54.653 --> 00:53:54.934
Are they?

00:53:55.894 --> 00:53:56.255
Probably.

00:53:57.802 --> 00:54:00.583
So the Norwegian office, no,

00:54:00.623 --> 00:54:02.525
the problem I have, you're like,

00:54:02.846 --> 00:54:03.766
I want to solve the biggest

00:54:03.806 --> 00:54:05.568
problem you have, CEO man,

00:54:06.349 --> 00:54:07.269
Crocodile Dundee.

00:54:08.110 --> 00:54:08.931
And he goes,

00:54:09.431 --> 00:54:10.552
the biggest problem I have is

00:54:10.572 --> 00:54:11.612
the Norwegian office are a

00:54:11.632 --> 00:54:12.173
bunch of cunts.

00:54:12.253 --> 00:54:12.753
No, he doesn't.

00:54:13.355 --> 00:54:13.594
He says,

00:54:13.635 --> 00:54:14.916
the biggest problem I have is that

00:54:15.096 --> 00:54:16.237
all of my individual employees

00:54:16.677 --> 00:54:19.318
divisions in country are

00:54:19.940 --> 00:54:21.039
potentially their software

00:54:21.081 --> 00:54:22.201
will go down not because

00:54:22.221 --> 00:54:23.422
they're not good engineers

00:54:23.501 --> 00:54:24.322
but because their data

00:54:24.342 --> 00:54:25.603
center goes out or their

00:54:25.643 --> 00:54:27.465
local power is unreliable

00:54:27.865 --> 00:54:30.306
we have um some folks that

00:54:30.467 --> 00:54:32.188
are in you know places

00:54:32.208 --> 00:54:33.068
where there are typhoons

00:54:33.130 --> 00:54:34.971
and shit right and power goes down and

00:54:35.318 --> 00:54:36.059
We had an issue where a

00:54:36.099 --> 00:54:37.440
backup generator went down and blah, blah,

00:54:37.460 --> 00:54:37.840
blah, blah.

00:54:38.139 --> 00:54:40.302
Like I have a friend that works for Cisco,

00:54:40.362 --> 00:54:40.561
right?

00:54:40.641 --> 00:54:41.541
And they had a problem where

00:54:41.561 --> 00:54:42.702
a US data center got taken

00:54:42.742 --> 00:54:44.583
out by hurricane fucking Katrina, right?

00:54:45.384 --> 00:54:45.965
They get the, you know,

00:54:45.985 --> 00:54:47.264
there's named big US

00:54:47.284 --> 00:54:48.726
hurricanes come in and take

00:54:48.786 --> 00:54:49.867
out a whole data center,

00:54:49.927 --> 00:54:51.007
take out the backup power,

00:54:51.027 --> 00:54:51.768
flood the place.

00:54:52.903 --> 00:54:54.324
So for them,

00:54:54.706 --> 00:54:56.146
the fact that Apache Cassandra

00:54:56.166 --> 00:54:57.128
or whatever it might be is

00:54:57.809 --> 00:54:59.369
data center partitioned and

00:54:59.771 --> 00:55:01.112
fault tolerant is really important,

00:55:01.152 --> 00:55:01.331
right?

00:55:01.733 --> 00:55:03.414
So one of the things,

00:55:03.614 --> 00:55:04.856
we're finally arriving at the point,

00:55:05.356 --> 00:55:06.516
one of the things that's interesting,

00:55:06.536 --> 00:55:07.597
obviously, about blockchains,

00:55:07.757 --> 00:55:09.840
distributed ledgers, the stuff we work on,

00:55:10.300 --> 00:55:12.643
is that Byzantine fault tolerance,

00:55:12.943 --> 00:55:14.043
by definition,

00:55:14.405 --> 00:55:17.327
covers crash fault tolerance, right?

00:55:18.646 --> 00:55:20.668
So if you can get a system

00:55:20.708 --> 00:55:21.829
like that to be fast enough

00:55:21.849 --> 00:55:22.610
for your use case,

00:55:22.690 --> 00:55:23.751
there is an argument and

00:55:23.791 --> 00:55:25.574
there's a good argument for just going,

00:55:25.713 --> 00:55:26.094
fuck it,

00:55:26.335 --> 00:55:28.275
have a Byzantine fault tolerant ledger.

00:55:28.657 --> 00:55:30.257
And so this is where I've got to, like,

00:55:31.139 --> 00:55:32.360
I am working on a

00:55:32.481 --> 00:55:35.182
permissioned private chain

00:55:35.222 --> 00:55:36.744
for a really specific use case,

00:55:37.204 --> 00:55:39.027
like an architecture for it.

00:55:39.688 --> 00:55:40.748
And everybody was like, oh,

00:55:40.789 --> 00:55:41.429
it needs to do these really

00:55:41.449 --> 00:55:41.869
simple things.

00:55:41.909 --> 00:55:42.730
It needs to do blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:55:42.751 --> 00:55:42.990
blah.

00:55:43.610 --> 00:55:44.492
and I started asking

00:55:44.532 --> 00:55:45.911
questions like oh but how

00:55:45.972 --> 00:55:46.572
much do you trust

00:55:46.952 --> 00:55:49.733
institution x or y or z to

00:55:49.753 --> 00:55:51.434
be up and they were like oh

00:55:52.356 --> 00:55:53.056
they'll be down all the

00:55:53.076 --> 00:55:55.516
time and you're like okay

00:55:55.556 --> 00:55:57.978
cool um and and you just

00:55:57.998 --> 00:55:58.838
start like you go down the

00:55:58.858 --> 00:55:59.679
list they've got like 20

00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:00.539
institutions or whatever

00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:01.280
they're going to run this

00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:02.981
you go down the list and

00:56:03.021 --> 00:56:04.362
you get eight nodes down

00:56:04.641 --> 00:56:06.222
right and they're like okay

00:56:06.922 --> 00:56:07.583
all of these are going to

00:56:07.603 --> 00:56:08.384
be down and you're like

00:56:10.554 --> 00:56:12.677
what that's like a third of

00:56:12.697 --> 00:56:15.820
the of the network is now

00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:18.505
crash faulted right we are

00:56:18.644 --> 00:56:20.646
into consensus algorithm

00:56:20.666 --> 00:56:22.449
territory where we we are

00:56:22.528 --> 00:56:24.190
now in problem zone right

00:56:24.851 --> 00:56:26.793
multiples of three baby um

00:56:27.114 --> 00:56:27.856
and so that point you're

00:56:27.876 --> 00:56:30.157
like well it sounds like we're building

00:56:31.132 --> 00:56:32.552
a zero trust network now.

00:56:32.773 --> 00:56:34.375
It sounds like because a

00:56:34.414 --> 00:56:37.538
Byzantine fault is

00:56:37.577 --> 00:56:38.778
different from a crash fault.

00:56:38.818 --> 00:56:39.358
That's a given.

00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:40.840
Because a Byzantine fault,

00:56:41.041 --> 00:56:42.983
you say one thing and you do another.

00:56:44.304 --> 00:56:45.425
But it's also possible for a

00:56:45.565 --> 00:56:47.806
node to broadcast one thing,

00:56:49.307 --> 00:56:51.190
but do another thing

00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:53.311
because of misconfiguration.

00:56:53.751 --> 00:56:54.592
Tombstoning

00:56:55.637 --> 00:56:57.018
is almost always a

00:56:57.059 --> 00:56:58.139
configuration error that

00:56:58.179 --> 00:57:00.722
results in that mismatch, right?

00:57:00.742 --> 00:57:01.862
A Byzantine fault,

00:57:02.262 --> 00:57:04.003
but it's usually actually operator error.

00:57:04.824 --> 00:57:06.065
So there's a whole system of,

00:57:06.085 --> 00:57:06.885
there's a whole class of

00:57:06.945 --> 00:57:07.847
enterprise systems where

00:57:07.867 --> 00:57:08.827
that's definitely true of,

00:57:08.967 --> 00:57:09.407
and I don't know,

00:57:09.427 --> 00:57:11.228
that's kind of fascinating

00:57:11.329 --> 00:57:12.110
and it's going to be fast.

00:57:12.250 --> 00:57:13.911
It is endlessly fascinating actually.

00:57:14.791 --> 00:57:16.472
Um, yeah.

00:57:17.869 --> 00:57:18.570
I don't know, to me,

00:57:18.750 --> 00:57:19.829
of course it's fascinating to me.

00:57:19.969 --> 00:57:23.150
That's literally what I, yeah, I re yeah.

00:57:23.271 --> 00:57:24.871
I, I enjoy, I'm a, I'm a masochist.

00:57:24.931 --> 00:57:26.452
I enjoy reading papers about

00:57:26.572 --> 00:57:27.391
all of the different ways

00:57:27.431 --> 00:57:28.572
in which these systems can fail,

00:57:28.632 --> 00:57:29.032
I suppose.

00:57:29.092 --> 00:57:31.152
But I get that's not everybody.

00:57:31.373 --> 00:57:32.253
That's not everybody's kink.

00:57:35.653 --> 00:57:38.534
So should we then move on to

00:57:38.574 --> 00:57:41.474
some news before everybody

00:57:41.875 --> 00:57:43.635
goes to sleep or leaves one of the two?

00:57:43.655 --> 00:57:43.735
Yeah.

00:57:45.195 --> 00:57:45.735
Yeah.

00:57:45.996 --> 00:57:46.215
Yeah.

00:57:48.114 --> 00:57:48.675
You're like,

00:57:48.715 --> 00:57:50.916
I'm here to talk about other stuff, man.

00:57:52.257 --> 00:57:55.119
All right, so let's go.

00:57:55.139 --> 00:57:56.800
I'm going to read this verbatim.

00:57:57.619 --> 00:58:00.702
So hopefully it's good.

00:58:01.942 --> 00:58:03.702
Huge news for privacy and

00:58:03.802 --> 00:58:05.864
P2P crypto enthusiasts as

00:58:05.983 --> 00:58:08.545
local Monero to shut down

00:58:08.585 --> 00:58:09.987
the P2P exchange after

00:58:10.027 --> 00:58:11.146
seven years of operation.

00:58:11.706 --> 00:58:13.088
After Monero began delisted...

00:58:17.431 --> 00:58:19.733
from multiple exchanges now

00:58:19.753 --> 00:58:21.492
the largest privacy ptp

00:58:21.532 --> 00:58:23.393
exchange is closing with

00:58:23.514 --> 00:58:24.494
new account creations

00:58:24.554 --> 00:58:25.594
already disabled and

00:58:25.795 --> 00:58:27.034
trading to cease on the

00:58:27.335 --> 00:58:29.835
19th of may the website

00:58:29.856 --> 00:58:31.056
will shut down in november

00:58:31.076 --> 00:58:37.557
so I i this was a a privacy

00:58:38.898 --> 00:58:42.039
exchange do you know about

00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:43.500
this shielding I think so

00:58:48.108 --> 00:58:48.708
She'll be like, what?

00:58:49.590 --> 00:58:50.730
I do not know about it, no.

00:58:51.690 --> 00:58:52.371
I've read about it,

00:58:52.431 --> 00:58:53.411
but I don't really know what it does.

00:58:56.472 --> 00:59:00.213
I don't know why my camera has,

00:59:02.496 --> 00:59:03.356
still working apparently.

00:59:04.777 --> 00:59:06.456
I had to plug it in recently

00:59:06.476 --> 00:59:07.597
because it was running out

00:59:07.637 --> 00:59:08.597
of battery fast.

00:59:09.097 --> 00:59:11.259
I still have my phone taped

00:59:11.278 --> 00:59:13.380
to my monitor and it runs

00:59:13.460 --> 00:59:14.601
out of battery when we do this, so.

00:59:17.728 --> 00:59:21.268
There you go.

00:59:21.289 --> 00:59:21.568
You know,

00:59:21.588 --> 00:59:23.289
I think I used to have some Monero,

00:59:23.329 --> 00:59:24.429
but I'm guessing I now

00:59:25.550 --> 00:59:26.951
can't do shit with it.

00:59:28.670 --> 00:59:29.030
Oh, well.

00:59:31.092 --> 00:59:32.592
Too many coins, too many wallets.

00:59:34.632 --> 00:59:36.172
So you're saying you have

00:59:36.213 --> 00:59:39.173
Monero and just don't know where it is?

00:59:39.193 --> 00:59:42.114
I definitely used to have some Monero,

00:59:42.315 --> 00:59:43.355
yeah.

00:59:43.434 --> 00:59:44.474
I don't know if I still have it.

00:59:44.494 --> 00:59:46.576
I should probably check.

00:59:48.184 --> 00:59:49.204
has been fucking,

00:59:49.885 --> 00:59:51.266
if it's been delisted from

00:59:51.306 --> 00:59:52.266
a bunch of exchanges,

00:59:52.286 --> 00:59:53.485
then I should probably

00:59:53.565 --> 00:59:55.067
check whether I sold it or not.

00:59:55.126 --> 00:59:59.007
Otherwise, ah, oh, well.

01:00:00.827 --> 01:00:07.929
But yeah, it's back to

01:00:13.873 --> 01:00:14.914
It's back to literally,

01:00:14.934 --> 01:00:15.974
this is why you need,

01:00:15.994 --> 01:00:17.514
this is why you need.

01:00:17.534 --> 01:00:22.617
I genuinely think that a lot

01:00:22.637 --> 01:00:26.639
of this stuff is just, I dunno.

01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:29.780
So, so like the, presumably the,

01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:31.960
is there is the reason that, that,

01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:33.581
that people are going after

01:00:33.621 --> 01:00:34.422
this stuff because it's

01:00:34.461 --> 01:00:36.583
private exchanges is the

01:00:36.603 --> 01:00:37.543
reason that governments go

01:00:37.663 --> 01:00:39.903
after it because of AML CFT,

01:00:40.103 --> 01:00:42.465
or is it because of perceived user harm?

01:00:49.659 --> 01:00:50.079
Noel's gone.

01:00:50.619 --> 01:00:52.099
He's done.

01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:54.561
He's like, we're into policy debates now.

01:00:56.742 --> 01:00:57.603
Literally sounded like

01:00:57.643 --> 01:00:58.844
someone just walked into my house.

01:00:59.244 --> 01:01:01.844
Kind of hard to tell with headphones on,

01:01:01.905 --> 01:01:05.166
so I'll be back in a minute.

01:01:07.168 --> 01:01:08.909
After, what, 100 episodes,

01:01:08.969 --> 01:01:10.889
the phone finally falls off

01:01:10.929 --> 01:01:12.371
the monitor and smashes it

01:01:12.411 --> 01:01:14.112
to the desk mid-podcast.

01:01:14.992 --> 01:01:16.132
It had to happen at some point.

01:01:17.061 --> 01:01:17.521
Amazing.

01:01:18.842 --> 01:01:20.525
Okay, so that's bad.

01:01:23.266 --> 01:01:25.088
Yeah.

01:01:32.974 --> 01:01:33.875
I wonder where they're based.

01:01:33.934 --> 01:01:36.356
A local Monaro based in the States?

01:01:36.536 --> 01:01:37.556
Is that why they're being

01:01:37.677 --> 01:01:38.657
shut down or whatever?

01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:41.681
Because it seems like...

01:01:43.851 --> 01:01:45.672
Getting shut down seems like

01:01:45.713 --> 01:01:46.853
a thing that you have to be

01:01:46.992 --> 01:01:48.054
in a jurisdiction where you

01:01:48.074 --> 01:01:48.833
can be shut down.

01:01:48.853 --> 01:01:57.297
Oh, internal and external factors.

01:01:57.358 --> 01:01:58.478
That's very misc.

01:02:02.621 --> 01:02:02.860
I mean,

01:02:02.940 --> 01:02:04.021
one of the interesting issues with

01:02:04.041 --> 01:02:05.402
a lot of these tools is that

01:02:06.751 --> 01:02:09.213
they're passion projects, right?

01:02:10.913 --> 01:02:11.913
And so people don't have a

01:02:11.952 --> 01:02:13.213
lot of reason to continue

01:02:13.233 --> 01:02:14.094
developing it once they've

01:02:14.153 --> 01:02:14.733
done something.

01:02:14.753 --> 01:02:15.693
And a good example of this

01:02:16.014 --> 01:02:18.534
Monero related is the

01:02:18.614 --> 01:02:19.875
secret network Monero bridge.

01:02:21.376 --> 01:02:23.476
Right now there is Monero on secret, yes,

01:02:23.655 --> 01:02:24.576
but the person who

01:02:24.596 --> 01:02:28.177
developed it has no reason to continue.

01:02:28.277 --> 01:02:29.177
And so now this bridge

01:02:29.217 --> 01:02:30.577
basically doesn't work anymore,

01:02:30.898 --> 01:02:32.338
at least from last time I tried.

01:02:32.358 --> 01:02:33.418
And so now there's just a

01:02:33.458 --> 01:02:35.039
bunch of Monero stuck on secret network.

01:02:36.197 --> 01:02:37.498
can't do anything but also

01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:38.519
why would he continue

01:02:39.039 --> 01:02:40.240
supporting it if he's never

01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:42.001
gotten money for it he's

01:02:42.041 --> 01:02:43.282
passionate about it yes but

01:02:44.083 --> 01:02:44.963
that just happens all the

01:02:44.983 --> 01:02:45.985
time they built something

01:02:46.005 --> 01:02:46.965
really cool people use it

01:02:46.985 --> 01:02:49.106
and then yeah and

01:02:49.146 --> 01:02:50.947
presumably if you if you

01:02:50.967 --> 01:02:52.009
can build that kind of a

01:02:52.048 --> 01:02:53.050
piece of software there are

01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:53.949
plenty of other people that

01:02:53.969 --> 01:02:54.731
are knocking on your door

01:02:54.771 --> 01:02:57.271
to be like hey I would like

01:02:57.313 --> 01:02:58.833
to give you checks notes

01:02:59.793 --> 01:03:01.456
one million dollars to build

01:03:01.496 --> 01:03:03.637
this venture backed thing

01:03:03.697 --> 01:03:04.498
venture capital backed

01:03:04.538 --> 01:03:05.438
thing that does something

01:03:05.478 --> 01:03:06.420
quite similar but for a

01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:07.320
different network and

01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:09.581
they've gone like oh yeah

01:03:09.762 --> 01:03:12.264
actually I i got a mortgage

01:03:12.324 --> 01:03:14.146
I'll take the money please

01:03:14.425 --> 01:03:20.911
yeah um yeah exactly which um ah

01:03:22.905 --> 01:03:23.425
Yeah,

01:03:23.445 --> 01:03:24.827
so reading a little bit more about

01:03:24.867 --> 01:03:26.248
the local Monaro thing,

01:03:26.347 --> 01:03:28.329
I think your read is

01:03:28.349 --> 01:03:29.130
probably closer to it.

01:03:29.150 --> 01:03:30.692
I don't actually think

01:03:31.632 --> 01:03:34.715
it's... I don't really

01:03:34.735 --> 01:03:35.396
think it's been cracked

01:03:35.436 --> 01:03:36.356
down on by anybody.

01:03:36.856 --> 01:03:38.918
It sounds like it's become abandoned ware.

01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:39.800
That's really...

01:03:41.072 --> 01:03:43.514
Like internal and external factors.

01:03:43.773 --> 01:03:45.815
That sounds like we are a small team.

01:03:45.994 --> 01:03:47.356
We now fucking hate each

01:03:47.456 --> 01:03:49.137
other and we've all been

01:03:49.177 --> 01:03:50.077
offered other jobs.

01:03:50.358 --> 01:03:51.599
That's what it sounds like to me.

01:03:53.661 --> 01:03:55.862
But could be wrong.

01:03:56.563 --> 01:03:57.043
That's one of the things

01:03:57.063 --> 01:03:57.824
that really surprised me

01:03:57.884 --> 01:04:00.125
about how Bitcoin still exists.

01:04:00.304 --> 01:04:01.266
My understanding is that

01:04:01.385 --> 01:04:03.106
Bitcoin doesn't really have any funding.

01:04:03.547 --> 01:04:04.188
So it's basically just a

01:04:04.248 --> 01:04:05.028
bunch of people working on

01:04:05.048 --> 01:04:06.769
open source software, which is great.

01:04:07.827 --> 01:04:08.768
But there's got to be a

01:04:08.807 --> 01:04:10.509
certain point aspect to the

01:04:10.548 --> 01:04:11.510
developers of like, okay,

01:04:11.530 --> 01:04:13.251
people are making obscene

01:04:13.291 --> 01:04:14.552
amounts of money off of this,

01:04:14.873 --> 01:04:17.054
off of partially my work

01:04:17.074 --> 01:04:17.894
and my development.

01:04:20.436 --> 01:04:21.458
And I don't get to see much of it.

01:04:21.637 --> 01:04:23.039
And that's an ongoing issue with Bitcoin.

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:26.762
There must be... I mean,

01:04:26.802 --> 01:04:27.762
it must be that the core

01:04:27.782 --> 01:04:30.865
developers have some kind

01:04:30.905 --> 01:04:32.226
of line into the miners or

01:04:32.266 --> 01:04:33.487
something like that, where they're like,

01:04:33.507 --> 01:04:35.248
look, you guys are making a ton of money,

01:04:35.289 --> 01:04:35.509
yo.

01:04:35.969 --> 01:04:37.170
And you're going to need to send some...

01:04:38.088 --> 01:04:39.730
cheddar cheese our way or

01:04:39.750 --> 01:04:40.590
this network is going to be

01:04:40.630 --> 01:04:43.432
in rough shape there must

01:04:43.492 --> 01:04:44.873
be there must be some kind

01:04:44.893 --> 01:04:48.617
of collusion there

01:04:48.677 --> 01:04:49.577
otherwise like yeah the

01:04:49.597 --> 01:04:51.920
party like what why you

01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:53.001
know if you're a developer

01:04:53.061 --> 01:04:54.161
and you can work on bitcoin

01:04:54.201 --> 01:04:55.041
why would you work on it

01:04:55.061 --> 01:04:57.043
for a bit of money when

01:04:57.083 --> 01:04:57.903
somebody's making hundreds

01:04:57.923 --> 01:04:58.664
of millions of dollars or

01:04:58.684 --> 01:05:00.166
whatever you'd be like this

01:05:00.186 --> 01:05:01.347
is ridiculous like it's not

01:05:01.387 --> 01:05:03.228
worth it unless you really

01:05:03.728 --> 01:05:04.409
maybe maybe they just

01:05:04.429 --> 01:05:05.170
really believe in bitcoin

01:05:08.072 --> 01:05:09.273
I mean, I think it's with Linux, right?

01:05:09.833 --> 01:05:11.896
Most Linux open source contributors.

01:05:14.559 --> 01:05:16.780
Well, I guess I can't really say most,

01:05:16.820 --> 01:05:18.202
but many of them do it just

01:05:18.342 --> 01:05:20.405
because they enjoy open source.

01:05:20.905 --> 01:05:21.105
Well,

01:05:21.164 --> 01:05:23.827
aren't a lot just basically funded by

01:05:23.847 --> 01:05:25.148
their company to do it

01:05:25.210 --> 01:05:26.650
because their company makes

01:05:27.170 --> 01:05:28.632
money and requires the

01:05:28.753 --> 01:05:31.215
security of that thing?

01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:32.179
Yeah,

01:05:32.199 --> 01:05:33.661
that's why I started rolling back me

01:05:33.701 --> 01:05:36.722
saying most like, uh, what's his name?

01:05:36.882 --> 01:05:37.302
Guido,

01:05:37.443 --> 01:05:39.184
the former benevolent dictator for

01:05:39.224 --> 01:05:40.025
life of Python.

01:05:40.505 --> 01:05:44.947
He was hired by Microsoft hired as a, um,

01:05:45.467 --> 01:05:46.728
distinguished engineer and

01:05:46.748 --> 01:05:48.630
all he does work on Python, right?

01:05:48.650 --> 01:05:49.250
Like he wasn't doing

01:05:49.289 --> 01:05:50.070
anything for Microsoft.

01:05:50.090 --> 01:05:52.012
He just got paid a lot to work on Python.

01:05:53.632 --> 01:05:53.793
Yeah.

01:05:54.112 --> 01:05:57.675
And, uh, notably of course.

01:05:59.378 --> 01:06:01.559
spj was hired by microsoft

01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:03.920
and uh I was about to say

01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:05.240
it didn't do you know just

01:06:05.380 --> 01:06:06.802
presumably continue doing

01:06:08.262 --> 01:06:11.905
crazy mind mind hammer mind

01:06:11.965 --> 01:06:14.306
horn stuff but actually um

01:06:15.367 --> 01:06:16.347
microsoft released that

01:06:16.427 --> 01:06:17.367
functional language didn't

01:06:17.407 --> 01:06:22.550
they uh f sharp which oh yeah they did uh

01:06:23.590 --> 01:06:25.590
like you know you you hear

01:06:25.751 --> 01:06:26.871
you hear Microsoft's uh

01:06:26.931 --> 01:06:30.612
releasing a a a statically

01:06:30.652 --> 01:06:32.112
typed um algebraic data

01:06:32.172 --> 01:06:33.851
type um functional language

01:06:33.891 --> 01:06:36.693
and you're just like okay I

01:06:36.753 --> 01:06:38.152
see I see who's behind this

01:06:38.632 --> 01:06:40.994
um but yeah I don't know it

01:06:41.233 --> 01:06:44.655
it yeah it there's there's

01:06:44.675 --> 01:06:45.315
definitely like a bit of

01:06:45.335 --> 01:06:46.355
and again it's back to the

01:06:46.375 --> 01:06:47.335
thing of like if you have a

01:06:47.355 --> 01:06:48.295
big enough market cap and

01:06:48.315 --> 01:06:49.896
there's enough money sloshing around then

01:06:52.492 --> 01:06:54.313
maybe even just if you say I

01:06:54.393 --> 01:06:56.755
am a bitcoin core developer

01:06:59.476 --> 01:07:00.896
and put up a tip jar maybe

01:07:00.916 --> 01:07:01.936
you just get enough dribble

01:07:02.335 --> 01:07:03.536
that the dribble becomes

01:07:03.876 --> 01:07:05.177
actually like a lot of

01:07:05.217 --> 01:07:07.438
money I genuinely don't

01:07:07.478 --> 01:07:09.958
know um it would you know

01:07:09.978 --> 01:07:10.619
it'd be really really

01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:12.719
interesting um purely from

01:07:12.739 --> 01:07:16.240
the perspective of um who

01:07:16.260 --> 01:07:17.420
the developers are and what

01:07:17.460 --> 01:07:19.742
their motivations are and what

01:07:21.177 --> 01:07:22.217
And how that kind of breaks

01:07:22.257 --> 01:07:25.219
down is obviously a really important hit,

01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:28.681
like kind of semi undocumented, um,

01:07:30.862 --> 01:07:32.681
part of protocol security

01:07:32.802 --> 01:07:33.643
on every network,

01:07:34.043 --> 01:07:35.342
but obviously like the

01:07:35.483 --> 01:07:37.184
price tag risk on Bitcoin

01:07:37.244 --> 01:07:38.204
is that much higher.

01:07:38.224 --> 01:07:38.264
Um,

01:07:41.434 --> 01:07:41.773
Especially,

01:07:41.793 --> 01:07:43.835
is Bitcoin unlike ETH in that

01:07:43.894 --> 01:07:45.896
there's still mainly one client?

01:07:46.175 --> 01:07:47.976
Or do people, I guess people use multiple,

01:07:48.016 --> 01:07:48.237
right?

01:07:48.257 --> 01:07:49.077
Because they also have,

01:07:49.097 --> 01:07:49.556
there are a lot of

01:07:49.637 --> 01:07:52.219
different clients for different purposes,

01:07:52.278 --> 01:07:53.318
like for pools and all that

01:07:53.338 --> 01:07:54.219
sort of stuff too, right?

01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:54.960
Yeah,

01:07:54.980 --> 01:07:55.900
I think there's multiple clients for

01:07:55.940 --> 01:07:56.579
Bitcoin as well.

01:07:56.900 --> 01:07:59.702
There are 952 contributors

01:08:00.021 --> 01:08:01.302
lifetime of Bitcoin.

01:08:02.123 --> 01:08:03.003
And it doesn't seem like

01:08:03.023 --> 01:08:03.822
there's really that many

01:08:04.123 --> 01:08:05.083
active contributors,

01:08:05.884 --> 01:08:07.204
which is very interesting to me.

01:08:07.284 --> 01:08:08.605
Bitcoin's abandonware, is that it?

01:08:08.824 --> 01:08:09.826
Is that your hot take, Shortsy?

01:08:10.443 --> 01:08:11.644
Well, I'm not saying it's bandware,

01:08:11.704 --> 01:08:13.126
but there's fewer

01:08:13.166 --> 01:08:14.347
contributors than I expected.

01:08:14.487 --> 01:08:15.106
That's for sure.

01:08:15.847 --> 01:08:16.568
And it seems like there's

01:08:16.608 --> 01:08:19.770
only a handful of active

01:08:20.411 --> 01:08:21.612
developers for it right now.

01:08:21.712 --> 01:08:22.572
Like in the last week,

01:08:22.592 --> 01:08:24.373
it looks like there's been like four,

01:08:24.413 --> 01:08:25.734
maybe three developers that

01:08:25.755 --> 01:08:26.635
have done something for it.

01:08:30.417 --> 01:08:30.677
I don't know.

01:08:30.818 --> 01:08:31.319
Very interesting.

01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:31.538
I mean,

01:08:31.559 --> 01:08:33.460
maybe that's why the last big

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:34.860
Bitcoin thing I've heard about is,

01:08:35.381 --> 01:08:35.742
what was it?

01:08:36.202 --> 01:08:36.742
Taproot?

01:08:36.921 --> 01:08:38.363
And Taproot came out like three years ago,

01:08:38.703 --> 01:08:38.984
didn't it?

01:08:40.765 --> 01:08:41.926
Wasn't Taproot like a

01:08:42.006 --> 01:08:43.527
somewhat bad metal band in

01:08:43.546 --> 01:08:44.506
the early 2000s?

01:08:48.529 --> 01:08:51.011
Checking the show notes.

01:08:51.072 --> 01:08:53.332
We've lost a show note, Daddy.

01:08:54.113 --> 01:08:55.213
He's out getting cigarettes.

01:08:56.774 --> 01:08:58.076
Taproot was in November 2021.

01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:01.979
So I guess citing Ordinals,

01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:02.961
but Ordinals wasn't a

01:09:03.001 --> 01:09:04.521
Bitcoin improvement.

01:09:05.082 --> 01:09:05.842
That's the last thing I'm

01:09:05.882 --> 01:09:07.283
aware of that was the

01:09:07.323 --> 01:09:09.305
biggest Bitcoin change.

01:09:09.645 --> 01:09:11.046
So three years without any

01:09:11.106 --> 01:09:11.948
really big features.

01:09:12.148 --> 01:09:13.189
That's pretty interesting.

01:09:13.208 --> 01:09:13.328
I mean,

01:09:13.349 --> 01:09:16.110
I guess that's why Bitcoin's desired,

01:09:16.171 --> 01:09:16.291
right?

01:09:16.310 --> 01:09:17.211
It doesn't have a lot of changes.

01:09:17.230 --> 01:09:18.492
That's why Bitcoin Cash became a thing.

01:09:18.511 --> 01:09:21.774
That's why even, I think,

01:09:21.875 --> 01:09:22.956
Litecoin was a fork of

01:09:22.975 --> 01:09:23.695
Bitcoin originally.

01:09:24.237 --> 01:09:24.377
Yeah.

01:09:24.917 --> 01:09:25.677
So is Dogecoin.

01:09:27.759 --> 01:09:28.038
All that.

01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:28.760
All the gem ones.

01:09:29.417 --> 01:09:30.279
All the general,

01:09:32.926 --> 01:09:33.967
all the general blockchains

01:09:34.028 --> 01:09:35.431
were forks of Bitcoin,

01:09:35.572 --> 01:09:36.514
I think originally.

01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:39.060
Yeah, that makes sense.

01:09:40.462 --> 01:09:41.403
um they're all because

01:09:41.422 --> 01:09:42.283
they're all nakamoto

01:09:42.323 --> 01:09:43.484
consensus on the end of the

01:09:43.524 --> 01:09:48.024
hood um there's uh so um

01:09:48.784 --> 01:09:49.284
we've actually got some

01:09:49.324 --> 01:09:50.324
other stuff in the news in

01:09:50.345 --> 01:09:51.605
the news chart but I also

01:09:51.626 --> 01:09:53.006
because I just love talking

01:09:53.025 --> 01:09:54.126
about consensus mechanisms

01:09:54.546 --> 01:09:55.546
I saw that there was a bit

01:09:55.587 --> 01:09:57.306
of um a bit of twitter

01:09:57.346 --> 01:09:59.067
shade going down between

01:09:59.146 --> 01:10:01.488
some uh uh some eth

01:10:02.676 --> 01:10:04.297
people and some Tendermen

01:10:04.337 --> 01:10:06.838
people about their

01:10:06.878 --> 01:10:08.479
preferred... Because the

01:10:08.578 --> 01:10:11.661
ETH proof of stake is the Gasper thingy,

01:10:11.740 --> 01:10:14.202
right?

01:10:14.221 --> 01:10:16.802
And they were slinging hot

01:10:16.882 --> 01:10:17.783
takes backwards and

01:10:17.823 --> 01:10:21.003
forwards about safety versus liveness.

01:10:21.043 --> 01:10:23.185
And I was like, now this, this,

01:10:23.385 --> 01:10:25.185
this is the sledging.

01:10:25.546 --> 01:10:26.806
This is the sledging that I

01:10:26.827 --> 01:10:28.067
missed on crypto Twitter.

01:10:28.506 --> 01:10:29.528
I want people who understand

01:10:29.587 --> 01:10:31.167
consensus protocols to give

01:10:31.188 --> 01:10:31.948
each other a shit.

01:10:32.713 --> 01:10:34.775
like fully and fully like

01:10:34.815 --> 01:10:35.997
quite Larry as well.

01:10:36.157 --> 01:10:36.917
But you're just like,

01:10:37.398 --> 01:10:40.801
literally nobody understands these takes.

01:10:40.860 --> 01:10:41.582
This is brilliant.

01:10:42.323 --> 01:10:43.543
Like there's like about

01:10:43.583 --> 01:10:44.824
halfway down the Twitter thread.

01:10:44.845 --> 01:10:45.845
Somebody even goes like,

01:10:46.246 --> 01:10:49.509
this must be the niches beef in history.

01:10:49.529 --> 01:10:50.649
Yeah.

01:10:51.930 --> 01:10:53.592
Like people, people arguing about the cap,

01:10:53.853 --> 01:10:54.672
people basically like

01:10:54.712 --> 01:10:55.753
giving each other disses

01:10:55.793 --> 01:10:57.216
that rely on understanding

01:10:57.235 --> 01:10:58.516
of the cap theorem is like,

01:11:00.868 --> 01:11:02.529
perfection perfection itself

01:11:03.229 --> 01:11:06.734
um so yeah I like seeing

01:11:06.753 --> 01:11:07.795
those types of things but

01:11:07.914 --> 01:11:09.476
it always I do always feel

01:11:09.516 --> 01:11:10.877
kind of left out obviously

01:11:11.038 --> 01:11:12.479
whenever people are like

01:11:12.819 --> 01:11:13.820
going real deep and you can

01:11:13.862 --> 01:11:14.462
see that they're like

01:11:14.863 --> 01:11:16.083
somehow a gauntlet has been

01:11:16.144 --> 01:11:18.926
thrown but you don't have a

01:11:18.966 --> 01:11:19.887
context to know if it was

01:11:19.908 --> 01:11:20.849
actually a good one or not

01:11:22.987 --> 01:11:23.847
the pro I mean the other

01:11:23.868 --> 01:11:25.550
problem is like with the

01:11:25.689 --> 01:11:26.650
the when you get low enough

01:11:26.690 --> 01:11:27.851
down to the protocols like

01:11:27.912 --> 01:11:31.314
there's a there's a lot of

01:11:31.716 --> 01:11:33.497
detail like it's very

01:11:33.537 --> 01:11:35.338
fucking subtle so even if

01:11:35.378 --> 01:11:36.520
you think you're an expert

01:11:36.579 --> 01:11:38.101
you can very very quickly

01:11:38.181 --> 01:11:39.042
find that you have your

01:11:39.082 --> 01:11:42.145
pants around your ankles like um

01:11:43.533 --> 01:11:44.934
and also just because all of the,

01:11:45.173 --> 01:11:46.135
a lot of the mechanisms are

01:11:46.215 --> 01:11:47.435
so different to one another,

01:11:47.515 --> 01:11:49.676
like they share some common DNA,

01:11:49.756 --> 01:11:50.797
like a lot of the, um,

01:11:51.618 --> 01:11:52.599
proof of state networks

01:11:52.819 --> 01:11:56.900
rely on some version of PBFT, um,

01:11:57.322 --> 01:11:59.483
practical Byzantine fault tolerance,

01:11:59.523 --> 01:12:01.003
but obviously like BFT,

01:12:01.323 --> 01:12:02.085
a lot of thinking on,

01:12:02.225 --> 01:12:04.765
on BFT predates Lamport and everybody.

01:12:04.786 --> 01:12:07.847
Um, it goes back a lot earlier.

01:12:08.007 --> 01:12:10.409
And so there's, there's just innumerable,

01:12:10.430 --> 01:12:10.470
um,

01:12:13.666 --> 01:12:14.345
I was basically trying to

01:12:14.365 --> 01:12:15.626
get a list a few weeks ago

01:12:16.367 --> 01:12:18.266
of every blockchain

01:12:18.306 --> 01:12:19.627
consensus engine that's

01:12:19.646 --> 01:12:20.868
come out since Bitcoin.

01:12:21.387 --> 01:12:23.427
And it's a fucking long list, right?

01:12:24.148 --> 01:12:27.609
And they're all slightly different.

01:12:27.668 --> 01:12:28.770
They all do slightly

01:12:28.810 --> 01:12:29.430
different things in

01:12:29.510 --> 01:12:30.369
slightly different ways.

01:12:30.510 --> 01:12:32.189
And they use the same terminology.

01:12:32.930 --> 01:12:33.591
So you're just like,

01:12:34.990 --> 01:12:36.371
what's a pre-vote in this

01:12:36.430 --> 01:12:38.292
network versus this one and blah, blah,

01:12:38.652 --> 01:12:40.471
blah.

01:12:40.492 --> 01:12:42.313
But yeah, it's why it's difficult,

01:12:42.792 --> 01:12:43.033
you know,

01:12:44.318 --> 01:12:45.238
got to be pretty confident

01:12:45.278 --> 01:12:47.738
to wade in uh on a nerd

01:12:47.779 --> 01:12:50.840
debate at that level I

01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:51.881
don't think I i think I

01:12:51.900 --> 01:12:53.220
would probably weigh in and

01:12:53.261 --> 01:12:54.480
then I would immediately

01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:56.462
get owned because I'd be

01:12:56.481 --> 01:12:58.443
like it's actually this and

01:12:58.483 --> 01:13:00.323
they'd be like what a

01:13:00.363 --> 01:13:02.123
fucking cs undergrad take

01:13:02.163 --> 01:13:03.264
that is and you'll be like

01:13:04.465 --> 01:13:05.744
cries and doesn't even have

01:13:05.784 --> 01:13:07.305
cs undergrad would be my

01:13:07.326 --> 01:13:10.606
yeah I did history

01:13:11.748 --> 01:13:12.489
Do you think that's part of

01:13:12.590 --> 01:13:14.872
why a big portion,

01:13:14.891 --> 01:13:16.693
at least for my take of

01:13:17.373 --> 01:13:19.435
tech leads end up being not like tech,

01:13:20.737 --> 01:13:22.158
Leads in software or in

01:13:22.198 --> 01:13:24.500
technical capacities, like CEOs,

01:13:25.020 --> 01:13:26.662
end up being less technical

01:13:26.761 --> 01:13:29.103
and more kind of just

01:13:29.184 --> 01:13:30.283
charismatic because they're

01:13:30.304 --> 01:13:31.404
willing to see the

01:13:31.444 --> 01:13:33.327
criticisms that are valid

01:13:33.587 --> 01:13:35.068
and just kind of be like, meh,

01:13:35.207 --> 01:13:36.069
moving on anyway,

01:13:36.649 --> 01:13:37.689
and keep going with what they're doing.

01:13:37.909 --> 01:13:38.850
And that leads to success

01:13:38.911 --> 01:13:40.492
because they're doing it with authority.

01:13:41.353 --> 01:13:42.533
Whereas if you're actually wrong,

01:13:42.554 --> 01:13:43.413
you have to take a moment

01:13:43.454 --> 01:13:47.858
to kind of digest it and accept it.

01:13:48.988 --> 01:13:49.847
And then you need to go away

01:13:49.908 --> 01:13:51.047
and think about it and then

01:13:51.148 --> 01:13:52.389
agonize about it and then

01:13:52.429 --> 01:13:53.208
lose a couple of nights

01:13:53.248 --> 01:13:54.788
sleep and then be like,

01:13:54.809 --> 01:13:56.890
I need to read further on this subject.

01:13:56.909 --> 01:13:59.130
Uh, and then,

01:13:59.310 --> 01:14:00.890
and then you realize that five days ago,

01:14:00.970 --> 01:14:02.610
somebody asked you a direct yes,

01:14:02.650 --> 01:14:03.690
no question about whether

01:14:03.730 --> 01:14:04.810
or not you could save money

01:14:04.930 --> 01:14:06.271
on your AWS subscription.

01:14:06.992 --> 01:14:08.551
And you just walked away

01:14:08.591 --> 01:14:09.972
from the director of engineering going,

01:14:09.993 --> 01:14:11.832
Hmm, muttering to yourself.

01:14:13.256 --> 01:14:13.817
Yeah, exactly.

01:14:13.837 --> 01:14:16.798
And you're like, how am I still employed?

01:14:16.819 --> 01:14:19.380
These are not problems that

01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:20.779
you have when you go and

01:14:20.979 --> 01:14:22.001
run your own company

01:14:22.381 --> 01:14:23.881
because you are the one who

01:14:23.962 --> 01:14:26.483
is making bad decisions for your company.

01:14:26.563 --> 01:14:27.042
No.

01:14:28.083 --> 01:14:28.703
Yeah.

01:14:28.823 --> 01:14:29.764
You just will question how

01:14:29.804 --> 01:14:30.765
you're still employed, though.

01:14:31.425 --> 01:14:31.824
Daily.

01:14:33.086 --> 01:14:33.326
Yeah.

01:14:34.065 --> 01:14:34.286
Yeah.

01:14:34.445 --> 01:14:37.568
I mean, that's... You know, no matter...

01:14:42.721 --> 01:14:43.141
So, you know,

01:14:43.162 --> 01:14:44.162
like imposter syndrome is a

01:14:44.181 --> 01:14:45.743
big problem within software engineering,

01:14:46.262 --> 01:14:49.444
like communities typically.

01:14:50.583 --> 01:14:51.484
It just seems to be this

01:14:51.503 --> 01:14:52.505
thing that crops up all the time.

01:14:56.525 --> 01:14:57.706
Back to what you were kind of saying there,

01:14:57.746 --> 01:14:58.386
I'm always kind of

01:14:59.266 --> 01:15:00.667
genuinely quite surprised

01:15:00.846 --> 01:15:03.627
whenever technical people

01:15:03.728 --> 01:15:04.328
or people who are

01:15:04.387 --> 01:15:08.168
ostensibly technical are that confident.

01:15:08.229 --> 01:15:09.009
I'm always just like,

01:15:10.149 --> 01:15:11.670
there are some people you meet who are

01:15:12.662 --> 01:15:14.703
very brilliant and are also

01:15:14.724 --> 01:15:17.006
able to spin a yarn right

01:15:17.166 --> 01:15:18.025
but they're very few and

01:15:18.065 --> 01:15:19.127
far between and so I'm

01:15:19.167 --> 01:15:21.649
always kind of like maybe

01:15:21.668 --> 01:15:22.408
it's just maybe it's just

01:15:22.548 --> 01:15:24.069
um projecting jealousy or

01:15:24.109 --> 01:15:24.810
whatever but whenever

01:15:24.850 --> 01:15:25.631
people are very very

01:15:25.671 --> 01:15:26.631
together on that stuff I'm

01:15:26.671 --> 01:15:30.594
always just like what what

01:15:30.613 --> 01:15:31.394
was that video game that

01:15:31.413 --> 01:15:32.454
was really meme-y a couple

01:15:32.475 --> 01:15:34.756
of years ago uh it's like

01:15:34.796 --> 01:15:35.796
among us you're like sus

01:15:37.537 --> 01:15:38.658
typing in the chat sus

01:15:38.779 --> 01:15:40.460
super sus super sus too

01:15:40.479 --> 01:15:41.921
charismatic sus sus

01:15:43.194 --> 01:15:44.055
Um, which to be fair,

01:15:44.074 --> 01:15:45.076
it's probably true in blockchain.

01:15:45.095 --> 01:15:46.336
That's actually a reasonable,

01:15:48.697 --> 01:15:49.556
I think that's provably

01:15:49.617 --> 01:15:50.497
true in blockchain.

01:15:51.618 --> 01:15:53.137
Uh, founders are way more,

01:15:53.158 --> 01:15:54.238
it seems like founders are

01:15:54.259 --> 01:15:54.939
more successful when

01:15:54.958 --> 01:15:56.099
they're not technical when they are.

01:15:56.639 --> 01:15:57.880
But you're in vitalik.

01:15:57.979 --> 01:15:59.159
He, I mean,

01:15:59.180 --> 01:16:00.761
I think he's an outlier if anything,

01:16:00.780 --> 01:16:03.782
because he is technical, but he even,

01:16:03.921 --> 01:16:04.442
even for him,

01:16:04.521 --> 01:16:05.402
I think he's mostly stepped

01:16:05.421 --> 01:16:07.983
away from the technical

01:16:08.002 --> 01:16:09.083
side has become more of a

01:16:09.203 --> 01:16:10.224
face of Ethereum.

01:16:12.577 --> 01:16:14.037
Yeah, that's my perspective as well.

01:16:14.337 --> 01:16:15.559
I will say, like, actually,

01:16:16.059 --> 01:16:17.479
just from the last couple

01:16:17.500 --> 01:16:19.341
of months where I've been

01:16:19.381 --> 01:16:20.381
reading a lot of stuff, like,

01:16:21.502 --> 01:16:22.404
I've gone back to some of

01:16:22.463 --> 01:16:23.625
his old blog posts and stuff.

01:16:23.664 --> 01:16:24.404
And they're actually, like,

01:16:25.345 --> 01:16:27.426
he's a pretty good, like, I mean,

01:16:27.466 --> 01:16:28.887
I imagine that they're, you know,

01:16:28.908 --> 01:16:30.809
they're just like anything else.

01:16:30.889 --> 01:16:32.470
Like, there are some acknowledgements of,

01:16:32.490 --> 01:16:32.911
like, oh,

01:16:32.930 --> 01:16:34.171
so-and-so checked this and read

01:16:34.212 --> 01:16:34.712
this and whatever.

01:16:35.091 --> 01:16:37.394
Like, other people would have helped.

01:16:38.287 --> 01:16:39.109
but some of those posts are

01:16:39.128 --> 01:16:40.989
actually very readable on

01:16:41.329 --> 01:16:42.930
quite complex subjects and

01:16:42.970 --> 01:16:44.051
explain them quite well.

01:16:44.332 --> 01:16:51.055
I think, um, I don't really like Ethereum.

01:16:51.115 --> 01:16:51.337
Sorry.

01:16:51.377 --> 01:16:52.396
I just need to instantly,

01:16:53.018 --> 01:16:54.698
I said something nice about Vitalik.

01:16:54.738 --> 01:16:56.260
So I had to then just say,

01:16:56.319 --> 01:16:58.981
I don't like Ethereum to,

01:16:59.021 --> 01:16:59.662
to make up for it.

01:17:01.844 --> 01:17:03.043
So can't say nice things.

01:17:03.304 --> 01:17:04.145
It's not possible.

01:17:05.145 --> 01:17:05.326
Um,

01:17:06.505 --> 01:17:07.405
I really enjoyed at ETH

01:17:07.426 --> 01:17:08.426
Denver telling everyone

01:17:08.447 --> 01:17:09.688
that I wasn't Ethereum aligned.

01:17:10.988 --> 01:17:12.451
There's always just like moments of like,

01:17:12.511 --> 01:17:13.591
they were just giving me a look of like,

01:17:14.832 --> 01:17:15.654
why are you here?

01:17:15.974 --> 01:17:17.255
And who do you think you are?

01:17:17.274 --> 01:17:18.115
Yeah.

01:17:18.595 --> 01:17:18.997
I don't know.

01:17:19.037 --> 01:17:19.697
It sucks to use.

01:17:19.716 --> 01:17:20.257
What can I say?

01:17:20.278 --> 01:17:21.179
I mean,

01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:23.900
ask me what's absorbed like 10

01:17:23.900 --> 01:17:25.122
hours of my week this week,

01:17:25.342 --> 01:17:26.963
trying to buy Ethereum.

01:17:27.064 --> 01:17:27.244
Yeah.

01:17:29.143 --> 01:17:31.546
um that was that was fun so

01:17:32.166 --> 01:17:33.306
that whole thing boiled

01:17:33.346 --> 01:17:36.649
down to um there's just so

01:17:36.729 --> 01:17:38.192
much random going on in the

01:17:38.212 --> 01:17:41.113
uk with the law is like

01:17:41.154 --> 01:17:42.074
really clear and the

01:17:42.114 --> 01:17:43.036
regulation is really really

01:17:43.076 --> 01:17:45.198
clear but individual banks

01:17:45.257 --> 01:17:46.259
they're just individual

01:17:46.298 --> 01:17:47.860
risk tolerance for touching

01:17:47.980 --> 01:17:49.042
anything related to crypto

01:17:49.242 --> 01:17:50.703
is just wildly different

01:17:50.722 --> 01:17:51.963
right and you have to be super careful um

01:17:53.814 --> 01:17:54.833
Because you basically,

01:17:55.095 --> 01:17:55.994
it's like a prisoner's

01:17:56.034 --> 01:17:56.854
dilemma because you don't

01:17:56.916 --> 01:17:57.815
ever want to tell your bank

01:17:57.855 --> 01:17:59.817
what you do because some of

01:17:59.837 --> 01:18:00.896
them have changed.

01:18:01.238 --> 01:18:02.757
They change their terms of service without,

01:18:02.778 --> 01:18:04.259
you know,

01:18:04.838 --> 01:18:06.020
every time your bank or

01:18:06.060 --> 01:18:07.140
something you use changes

01:18:07.159 --> 01:18:07.780
their terms of service.

01:18:07.820 --> 01:18:09.060
Do you read every clause?

01:18:10.782 --> 01:18:11.042
I don't.

01:18:11.722 --> 01:18:12.823
But one of our banks had

01:18:12.863 --> 01:18:14.564
changed its terms of service to be like,

01:18:14.604 --> 01:18:15.944
if you work in this space, you can't.

01:18:16.564 --> 01:18:18.043
Basically we, we, we don't offer that.

01:18:18.904 --> 01:18:19.045
Um,

01:18:19.305 --> 01:18:20.444
and it causes a whole bunch of problems

01:18:20.484 --> 01:18:21.064
some time ago.

01:18:21.085 --> 01:18:21.345
And I,

01:18:21.404 --> 01:18:22.326
I talked about it in the podcast at

01:18:22.365 --> 01:18:22.626
the time.

01:18:23.185 --> 01:18:23.345
Um,

01:18:24.025 --> 01:18:25.806
and so you're in this weird situation

01:18:25.827 --> 01:18:26.646
where if you have existing

01:18:26.686 --> 01:18:28.768
bank account or whatever,

01:18:29.427 --> 01:18:31.507
you kind of just don't want

01:18:31.528 --> 01:18:33.609
to reveal what your company does.

01:18:34.609 --> 01:18:35.649
Because legally speaking,

01:18:35.829 --> 01:18:37.350
you're in the clear, you're totally fine.

01:18:37.750 --> 01:18:37.869
Um,

01:18:37.989 --> 01:18:39.110
it doesn't really matter as long as you

01:18:39.131 --> 01:18:41.030
don't do the obvious things are illegal.

01:18:41.171 --> 01:18:42.032
We all know we're illegal.

01:18:42.752 --> 01:18:43.412
You're a okay.

01:18:44.238 --> 01:18:45.979
but your bank might have a

01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:47.081
weird problem that they've

01:18:47.161 --> 01:18:49.462
just introduced at some point.

01:18:49.903 --> 01:18:50.262
And you're,

01:18:50.404 --> 01:18:51.404
you're suddenly now breaking

01:18:51.444 --> 01:18:52.345
their terms of service.

01:18:53.126 --> 01:18:54.868
Um, so it means that like,

01:18:54.908 --> 01:18:55.787
you kind of just like want

01:18:55.807 --> 01:18:57.189
to like do as little as possible.

01:18:57.229 --> 01:18:59.292
And so recently for the, uh, the DVT,

01:18:59.511 --> 01:19:02.373
the deep vein thrombosis, um, sorry, uh,

01:19:02.413 --> 01:19:03.956
distributed validator stuff

01:19:04.076 --> 01:19:04.615
that we're all

01:19:04.976 --> 01:19:05.896
investigating at the moment.

01:19:06.917 --> 01:19:06.997
Um,

01:19:09.868 --> 01:19:11.208
We've got to get hold of some Ethereum,

01:19:11.248 --> 01:19:11.409
right?

01:19:11.930 --> 01:19:13.831
And it's resulted in us

01:19:13.872 --> 01:19:14.731
having to poke our head

01:19:14.771 --> 01:19:16.453
above the parapet and

01:19:17.173 --> 01:19:19.256
actually touch the crypto world.

01:19:19.296 --> 01:19:21.497
Like with a long barge pole,

01:19:21.877 --> 01:19:24.100
just push some money over

01:19:24.140 --> 01:19:25.780
to a crypto exchange and

01:19:25.841 --> 01:19:28.243
fucking every single alarm

01:19:28.603 --> 01:19:29.524
went off at the bank.

01:19:29.724 --> 01:19:31.605
Every alarm, you know,

01:19:31.626 --> 01:19:33.887
our account got locked.

01:19:34.368 --> 01:19:35.229
Our car got frozen.

01:19:36.412 --> 01:19:38.434
um we had instantly a

01:19:38.474 --> 01:19:39.033
message from their

01:19:39.073 --> 01:19:41.395
anti-fraud team um and then

01:19:41.416 --> 01:19:42.237
a phone call from their

01:19:42.256 --> 01:19:44.998
anti-fraud team and even at

01:19:45.059 --> 01:19:46.699
that point I was still so

01:19:46.960 --> 01:19:49.322
like um prisoners dilemma

01:19:49.341 --> 01:19:50.143
about it like literally

01:19:50.182 --> 01:19:50.943
prisoners dilemma actually

01:19:50.963 --> 01:19:51.863
because it was a zero it

01:19:51.884 --> 01:19:53.145
was a classic zero

01:19:53.204 --> 01:19:54.225
knowledge zero trust

01:19:54.265 --> 01:19:57.908
situation right um and I was just like

01:19:59.391 --> 01:20:00.091
Why are you calling?

01:20:00.712 --> 01:20:01.171
And they're like,

01:20:01.612 --> 01:20:03.813
because we think that you

01:20:04.912 --> 01:20:06.233
are an elevated risk of

01:20:06.332 --> 01:20:07.613
fraud from this transaction.

01:20:07.634 --> 01:20:09.213
Like, bear in mind,

01:20:09.594 --> 01:20:11.213
on the transaction is going

01:20:11.274 --> 01:20:12.895
to the business bank of a

01:20:13.135 --> 01:20:17.076
major centralized asset exchange, right?

01:20:17.435 --> 01:20:17.796
And they're like,

01:20:18.515 --> 01:20:20.877
who are you sending money to?

01:20:21.157 --> 01:20:21.697
And you're like,

01:20:23.176 --> 01:20:25.698
I don't have to reveal who that is.

01:20:26.217 --> 01:20:27.837
With respect, you are my bank.

01:20:29.238 --> 01:20:30.860
Knowing that they can look

01:20:30.940 --> 01:20:32.902
on the sheet and Google who it is.

01:20:33.181 --> 01:20:34.243
They know who it is.

01:20:34.684 --> 01:20:36.024
They must know who that is.

01:20:36.465 --> 01:20:37.685
That must be why the alarm

01:20:37.706 --> 01:20:38.426
bells have gone off.

01:20:38.846 --> 01:20:39.927
But you're testing them, right?

01:20:39.948 --> 01:20:41.488
Because you don't know

01:20:41.609 --> 01:20:42.649
whether you've broken their

01:20:42.670 --> 01:20:43.350
terms of service.

01:20:43.371 --> 01:20:44.190
So you're just like,

01:20:45.051 --> 01:20:47.314
we have done nothing wrong.

01:20:47.493 --> 01:20:50.817
And under British law, my understanding is,

01:20:51.617 --> 01:20:53.979
unless this is an AML CFT check,

01:20:54.619 --> 01:20:55.820
which we would comply with,

01:20:57.462 --> 01:20:59.422
if this is a consumer fraud check,

01:20:59.542 --> 01:21:00.264
we're a business,

01:21:00.363 --> 01:21:01.663
we're actually not an individual.

01:21:02.604 --> 01:21:05.104
So consumer harm doesn't fall into it.

01:21:05.264 --> 01:21:07.444
So we should just be able to

01:21:07.465 --> 01:21:07.984
make the payment.

01:21:09.564 --> 01:21:11.966
And they're like, ah, no, but we think,

01:21:12.525 --> 01:21:14.065
we think you're getting defrauded.

01:21:14.126 --> 01:21:15.286
And you're like, well,

01:21:15.386 --> 01:21:16.686
I know I'm not being defrauded.

01:21:16.966 --> 01:21:18.466
And they're like, well, no, but we think,

01:21:18.546 --> 01:21:18.926
and you're like,

01:21:19.367 --> 01:21:20.726
so you're telling me that I

01:21:20.787 --> 01:21:21.528
don't know whether I'm

01:21:21.547 --> 01:21:23.228
being defrauded by a supplier or not.

01:21:23.287 --> 01:21:23.688
And they're like,

01:21:27.372 --> 01:21:28.472
we're not saying that.

01:21:29.094 --> 01:21:30.876
They're like, well, what are you saying?

01:21:30.935 --> 01:21:31.457
And they're saying,

01:21:31.936 --> 01:21:35.140
sometimes people are mistaken.

01:21:35.761 --> 01:21:36.962
So you're saying I'm wrong.

01:21:37.002 --> 01:21:37.444
And they're like,

01:21:37.463 --> 01:21:38.645
we're not saying you're wrong.

01:21:38.685 --> 01:21:40.266
We're saying you might be mistaken.

01:21:40.287 --> 01:21:41.167
And I'm like,

01:21:41.608 --> 01:21:43.390
which is the same thing as wrong?

01:21:45.332 --> 01:21:47.795
And yeah, so this has been my last...

01:21:49.280 --> 01:21:50.480
Gloriously British.

01:21:51.181 --> 01:21:52.122
Gloriously British.

01:21:52.662 --> 01:21:53.442
It's astonishing.

01:21:53.542 --> 01:21:54.903
I think I sent you a screen

01:21:54.922 --> 01:21:57.304
grab of a thing where I'd said, look,

01:21:57.844 --> 01:21:58.604
we've been talking about

01:21:58.623 --> 01:21:59.664
this now for 24 hours.

01:21:59.725 --> 01:22:01.064
I'd appreciate some candor.

01:22:01.845 --> 01:22:03.386
If this is an AML CFT check,

01:22:03.786 --> 01:22:05.025
we'll 100% comply with that.

01:22:05.065 --> 01:22:05.987
That's absolutely fine.

01:22:06.287 --> 01:22:07.226
I'm not going to provide you

01:22:07.247 --> 01:22:07.867
with invoices.

01:22:07.907 --> 01:22:08.967
I'm not going to provide you

01:22:09.007 --> 01:22:09.828
with business sensitive

01:22:09.868 --> 01:22:11.729
information to check what

01:22:11.769 --> 01:22:13.288
is quite a routine transfer

01:22:13.309 --> 01:22:14.829
for us to a counterparty

01:22:14.850 --> 01:22:15.850
that we've paid before.

01:22:17.110 --> 01:22:18.030
I know it's not fraud.

01:22:18.702 --> 01:22:19.881
I am a director of this

01:22:19.942 --> 01:22:22.823
company and my judgment is

01:22:22.863 --> 01:22:23.783
this is not fraud.

01:22:24.564 --> 01:22:26.384
And they're like, well, that's fine.

01:22:27.003 --> 01:22:30.385
We think it might have an element of,

01:22:30.505 --> 01:22:31.505
you might be the victim of fraud.

01:22:31.524 --> 01:22:31.805
I was like,

01:22:32.145 --> 01:22:33.225
so are you saying that my

01:22:33.286 --> 01:22:34.605
judgment as a director of

01:22:34.645 --> 01:22:35.987
this company is not

01:22:36.046 --> 01:22:37.207
sufficient to move the

01:22:37.247 --> 01:22:39.046
money of this company in

01:22:39.106 --> 01:22:40.167
such a way that I judged to

01:22:40.207 --> 01:22:40.728
be reasonable?

01:22:41.068 --> 01:22:42.347
And they're like, we're not saying that.

01:22:42.448 --> 01:22:42.667
I'm like,

01:22:42.887 --> 01:22:44.069
so then why has this payment not

01:22:44.109 --> 01:22:44.509
completed?

01:22:44.529 --> 01:22:44.868
And they're like,

01:22:48.162 --> 01:22:51.305
well, we think it might be... To be clear,

01:22:51.345 --> 01:22:52.265
you are saying that my

01:22:52.305 --> 01:22:53.247
judgment is faulty.

01:22:53.266 --> 01:22:55.168
You are questioning my judgment.

01:22:55.448 --> 01:22:56.149
We don't question the

01:22:56.168 --> 01:22:58.551
judgment of our customers.

01:22:59.292 --> 01:23:00.893
It's been the most Kafkaesque...

01:23:02.560 --> 01:23:02.979
Two days.

01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:04.500
Um, so in the end, uh,

01:23:05.201 --> 01:23:06.161
they just kept asking for

01:23:06.201 --> 01:23:07.060
additional documentation.

01:23:07.100 --> 01:23:08.801
I just said, I said, no, I just,

01:23:08.942 --> 01:23:10.082
I just said, no, I don't.

01:23:13.262 --> 01:23:14.002
You couldn't, you can,

01:23:14.023 --> 01:23:14.643
there are things you can

01:23:14.682 --> 01:23:15.582
ask me for as my bank,

01:23:15.943 --> 01:23:17.083
as our business bank, and that's fine.

01:23:17.684 --> 01:23:18.384
And we'll provide them.

01:23:19.243 --> 01:23:19.963
But if you're just saying,

01:23:20.264 --> 01:23:21.104
we think that you're being

01:23:21.145 --> 01:23:23.664
defrauded and I say, no, I'm not.

01:23:24.664 --> 01:23:25.725
And we're not as a business

01:23:25.985 --> 01:23:27.405
and I know who this is.

01:23:27.685 --> 01:23:29.447
And, and I think I strongly suspect,

01:23:29.546 --> 01:23:30.867
you know, who this is as well.

01:23:32.176 --> 01:23:35.479
And they just, yeah,

01:23:35.560 --> 01:23:38.100
they didn't reveal what they knew, right?

01:23:38.162 --> 01:23:39.242
Which is that they must know

01:23:39.261 --> 01:23:42.265
that that is the business bank of Paywood,

01:23:42.585 --> 01:23:43.425
who are Kraken.

01:23:44.605 --> 01:23:47.547
And I didn't reveal that it was Paywood,

01:23:47.849 --> 01:23:48.248
Kraken,

01:23:48.269 --> 01:23:49.449
because I wanted to see if they

01:23:49.550 --> 01:23:50.210
said it to me.

01:23:50.229 --> 01:23:51.931
And they just kept saying,

01:23:51.952 --> 01:23:53.032
this is a judgment call.

01:23:53.112 --> 01:23:54.512
And I kept being like, yes,

01:23:54.573 --> 01:23:55.694
but you can't stop a

01:23:55.753 --> 01:23:57.255
payment on a judgment call

01:23:57.536 --> 01:23:59.317
when I am an authorized person.

01:24:00.181 --> 01:24:01.703
person for this company.

01:24:01.722 --> 01:24:03.042
So did it go through or no?

01:24:04.184 --> 01:24:05.345
Is it still in limbo?

01:24:06.024 --> 01:24:07.426
They were like,

01:24:07.466 --> 01:24:08.546
we're going to escalate it

01:24:08.586 --> 01:24:09.447
to a different team,

01:24:09.466 --> 01:24:11.307
but they're going to need

01:24:11.347 --> 01:24:12.568
to see some documentation.

01:24:13.188 --> 01:24:14.109
This was on, I think,

01:24:14.149 --> 01:24:16.630
the fifth person that had

01:24:17.690 --> 01:24:18.770
sent stuff through.

01:24:19.351 --> 01:24:20.431
And I was just like, no,

01:24:20.652 --> 01:24:21.493
we're not going to provide that.

01:24:21.512 --> 01:24:23.453
We're not going to provide that,

01:24:23.753 --> 01:24:24.753
but I'm absolutely happy

01:24:24.774 --> 01:24:25.574
for you to reverse this

01:24:25.614 --> 01:24:26.675
transaction and we will go

01:24:26.895 --> 01:24:27.756
use a different bank.

01:24:28.444 --> 01:24:30.565
Like that that's, that's totally cool.

01:24:31.365 --> 01:24:32.686
Um, but like,

01:24:32.747 --> 01:24:33.787
if you're just saying that

01:24:34.047 --> 01:24:35.029
we're being defrauded and

01:24:35.048 --> 01:24:36.350
I'm telling you we're not,

01:24:37.451 --> 01:24:38.792
I literally just go and use

01:24:39.171 --> 01:24:39.712
a different bank.

01:24:39.773 --> 01:24:40.894
Like it's, it's not a big deal.

01:24:40.974 --> 01:24:42.574
We've obviously paid these

01:24:42.614 --> 01:24:44.275
guys before with a different bank.

01:24:45.237 --> 01:24:47.359
We just use this one for ease this time.

01:24:47.559 --> 01:24:48.859
And it's obviously we've gone wrong.

01:24:49.940 --> 01:24:50.100
Um,

01:24:51.622 --> 01:24:54.184
and in the end they unlocked the payment.

01:24:56.538 --> 01:24:57.819
like literally just before the show,

01:24:57.840 --> 01:24:59.881
it was like, I got a thing being like,

01:25:00.621 --> 01:25:01.001
being like,

01:25:01.320 --> 01:25:03.261
we've done our advanced checks now.

01:25:03.962 --> 01:25:05.082
Like what checks?

01:25:05.903 --> 01:25:06.604
What checks?

01:25:06.724 --> 01:25:10.005
Like it's all fun and games.

01:25:10.864 --> 01:25:11.206
So yeah.

01:25:11.485 --> 01:25:11.985
What the fuck?

01:25:12.065 --> 01:25:13.247
Like trying to, yeah.

01:25:13.266 --> 01:25:14.067
Trying to buy a couple of

01:25:14.146 --> 01:25:18.009
ETH is insane in this country now.

01:25:20.229 --> 01:25:21.510
Presumably because I mean,

01:25:21.529 --> 01:25:22.751
like I kind of understand

01:25:22.831 --> 01:25:24.251
it like as much as I'm like

01:25:24.291 --> 01:25:25.152
complaining about it, like,

01:25:26.430 --> 01:25:27.311
I guess a lot of people have

01:25:27.332 --> 01:25:29.313
been scammed via the medium

01:25:29.353 --> 01:25:30.474
of buying cryptocurrency

01:25:30.514 --> 01:25:31.295
and sending it to people.

01:25:35.417 --> 01:25:36.219
Which obviously can happen

01:25:36.238 --> 01:25:37.279
in custodial wallets.

01:25:37.500 --> 01:25:40.561
The interesting thing is,

01:25:41.082 --> 01:25:42.863
I question if... I don't

01:25:42.884 --> 01:25:43.744
know if it's the same over there,

01:25:43.885 --> 01:25:48.627
but prepaid Visa cards from

01:25:48.688 --> 01:25:49.828
Walmart or Target or whatever,

01:25:50.250 --> 01:25:52.070
those are a huge director for scams.

01:25:52.591 --> 01:25:53.372
I don't think there's any

01:25:53.431 --> 01:25:55.394
sort of checks and balances for that.

01:25:56.430 --> 01:25:56.711
Right?

01:25:57.032 --> 01:25:59.694
Like the discrimination is

01:25:59.713 --> 01:26:01.414
kind of a hard term for me to put it,

01:26:01.435 --> 01:26:02.416
but discrimination is like

01:26:02.475 --> 01:26:04.216
crypto utilization.

01:26:04.358 --> 01:26:05.679
Like when you go to a

01:26:05.719 --> 01:26:07.439
grocery store and buy the till,

01:26:07.460 --> 01:26:08.780
they'll have like an Amazon gift card,

01:26:08.801 --> 01:26:09.462
like those kind of.

01:26:10.261 --> 01:26:10.542
Yeah.

01:26:10.882 --> 01:26:11.122
Yeah.

01:26:11.443 --> 01:26:12.404
Huge factor for scams.

01:26:12.684 --> 01:26:13.925
So like you can go to Target

01:26:13.944 --> 01:26:15.046
sometimes and you'll see

01:26:15.065 --> 01:26:16.367
that the entire section has

01:26:16.407 --> 01:26:17.448
basically been bought out.

01:26:17.708 --> 01:26:18.689
And you can almost guarantee

01:26:18.729 --> 01:26:19.729
that that was because

01:26:20.291 --> 01:26:21.331
someone was being scammed

01:26:21.351 --> 01:26:22.311
and they're like supposed to be like,

01:26:22.391 --> 01:26:23.752
can't scammer in gift cards.

01:26:24.073 --> 01:26:24.253
Right.

01:26:26.872 --> 01:26:27.511
would think there would be

01:26:27.551 --> 01:26:28.372
some sort of cuts and

01:26:28.412 --> 01:26:29.712
balances within target and

01:26:29.773 --> 01:26:30.893
also within your bank for

01:26:30.912 --> 01:26:33.853
those but it seems like

01:26:33.872 --> 01:26:35.493
it's way more like pointed

01:26:35.554 --> 01:26:38.173
for for exchanges it feels

01:26:38.213 --> 01:26:39.134
very akin to me to like

01:26:39.194 --> 01:26:41.055
pornography right like so

01:26:41.074 --> 01:26:41.734
many places have cracked

01:26:41.755 --> 01:26:42.475
down on pornography to the

01:26:42.515 --> 01:26:44.234
point where you can't pay

01:26:44.274 --> 01:26:45.515
for pornography I think

01:26:45.595 --> 01:26:47.456
using either visa or

01:26:47.615 --> 01:26:50.077
mastercard in the us like

01:26:50.096 --> 01:26:51.136
an entire sector of cards

01:26:51.157 --> 01:26:52.277
you can't you just can't pay with

01:26:53.659 --> 01:26:54.520
Cause it might perhaps

01:26:54.780 --> 01:26:56.440
potentially be related to

01:26:57.641 --> 01:26:58.462
like sex trafficking.

01:27:02.783 --> 01:27:03.203
Yes.

01:27:03.984 --> 01:27:08.627
Like it's yeah.

01:27:08.846 --> 01:27:11.627
It's a lot of this stuff is like, it,

01:27:11.847 --> 01:27:13.009
it definitely feels like looking,

01:27:13.128 --> 01:27:14.750
looking at an outcome and going,

01:27:15.590 --> 01:27:17.011
what is the outcome we want to drive?

01:27:17.251 --> 01:27:19.511
And then being like, Ooh, wow,

01:27:19.671 --> 01:27:21.273
this is actually really complicated.

01:27:24.243 --> 01:27:24.644
Well, anyway,

01:27:24.663 --> 01:27:25.444
this is what we're going to do.

01:27:26.805 --> 01:27:27.827
Yeah, for sure.

01:27:27.926 --> 01:27:30.829
And you're like, well, I mean,

01:27:30.869 --> 01:27:33.511
that's a solution,

01:27:33.591 --> 01:27:35.073
but is it the solution?

01:27:35.092 --> 01:27:36.094
I don't know.

01:27:36.875 --> 01:27:40.778
It's one of those things as well.

01:27:40.797 --> 01:27:42.859
I always even be facetious

01:27:42.880 --> 01:27:44.060
about the AML CFT stuff.

01:27:46.762 --> 01:27:47.863
You need AML CFT.

01:27:47.944 --> 01:27:49.284
It is a healthy and

01:27:49.324 --> 01:27:50.405
important part of the system.

01:27:50.865 --> 01:27:51.327
But like,

01:27:54.439 --> 01:27:55.020
Yeah,

01:27:56.239 --> 01:28:02.021
I think that I'm not absolutely out

01:28:02.042 --> 01:28:02.742
of my lane here,

01:28:02.801 --> 01:28:05.382
but what I would love to do

01:28:05.622 --> 01:28:07.743
at some point is have a proper,

01:28:08.762 --> 01:28:11.344
just an hour or two with an

01:28:11.583 --> 01:28:13.144
absolute expert in that

01:28:13.204 --> 01:28:14.625
policy area and just be like,

01:28:15.484 --> 01:28:17.546
just tell me all of the

01:28:17.606 --> 01:28:19.868
things about what is it

01:28:19.908 --> 01:28:20.929
that's being tried to achieve?

01:28:21.069 --> 01:28:22.590
Is it, is it effective?

01:28:22.770 --> 01:28:24.070
Am I like completely in the dark?

01:28:24.110 --> 01:28:25.391
And like, I, you know,

01:28:25.431 --> 01:28:26.693
I just see this tiny little

01:28:26.893 --> 01:28:28.474
sliver and like over here,

01:28:28.715 --> 01:28:29.954
billions of dollars are

01:28:29.975 --> 01:28:31.737
like successfully not being

01:28:31.777 --> 01:28:34.338
laundered and blah, blah, blah.

01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:36.520
I don't know.

01:28:36.539 --> 01:28:37.600
Like I assume I'm just

01:28:37.621 --> 01:28:38.681
talking from a place of ignorance,

01:28:38.742 --> 01:28:40.363
but it seems like a fascinating thing.

01:28:41.875 --> 01:28:44.077
um, like misuse of money,

01:28:44.136 --> 01:28:47.139
whatever that is like, I don't know.

01:28:48.380 --> 01:28:50.981
Um, so anyway,

01:28:51.082 --> 01:28:52.283
I guess now it's not coming back.

01:28:53.123 --> 01:28:54.984
Um, there's probably,

01:28:56.166 --> 01:28:57.127
there's probably a good time.

01:28:57.167 --> 01:28:58.167
Like it's not, you know,

01:28:58.488 --> 01:28:59.268
when it's just the two of us,

01:28:59.347 --> 01:29:01.489
it's not that fun to, you can't rug now.

01:29:01.510 --> 01:29:04.631
So it's, uh, it's not a lot,

01:29:04.752 --> 01:29:05.632
not a lot of joy in it.

01:29:05.672 --> 01:29:07.475
So, uh, yeah.

01:29:08.194 --> 01:29:08.775
Peace out.

01:29:09.836 --> 01:29:10.197
Deuces.