WEBVTT

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I'm doing it this week what

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call did I miss you you

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left early last week

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because you oh yeah man his

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life got in the way yeah

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Hello, welcome to Game of Nodes,

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a weekly podcast from

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independent validator teams.

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The podcast will continue

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until morale improves,

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until price action improves,

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or until we can all afford

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to finally follow the

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advice of that lawyer who once said,

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before the dust settles, be on a beach.

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Sage advice.

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What lawyer?

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Okay.

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uh dare not tell the story

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the first time I tried to

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get um actual serious legal

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advice from technology

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lawyers um the I think he I

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think he's a partner of

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that firm actually and

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they're not particularly

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small one um they kind of

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took the call they're kind

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of like you know curious about the

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the crypto stuff but I guess

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didn't have a lot to say

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about it and he thought

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about it he was like well

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you know based on the other

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like disruptive

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technologies that have come

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along and you know credit

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cards and this that and the

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other and the shenanigans

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that can happen my advice

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is to be retired and on a

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beach before the dust settles

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I mean, it seems pretty good advice.

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I was like, it's not, it's not,

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it's not dreadful advice.

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Uh,

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it wasn't really helpful at the time

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where it was just like, Hey, is,

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is what we're doing like legit?

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Is there anything we should be aware of?

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And it's like, yeah, the, the,

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the answer was, Hey, look,

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is just make sure you pay

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your taxes and the rest of it.

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Nobody can tell you.

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And then that was to be felt like.

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we've been doing this a

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while now right so that

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that was actually several

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years ago now a couple of

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two maybe fully two years

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ago in fact we're in 2024

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now I think that was the

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beginning of 2022 so it's

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kind of like uh it reminds

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me of uh hans gruber's

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advice right like when you

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by the time everybody

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figures it out we'll be

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sitting on the beach

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earning 20 percent I need

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20 percent you didn't bring

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me along you didn't bring

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me along for my charming personality you

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By the time the delegators

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figure out the rug,

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we'll be sitting here.

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Do you know what?

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You know we were having the conversation,

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is that a Christmas film, the other week?

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it is worth remembering that

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when the vault opens, you know,

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there's that long shot of

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the vault door opening.

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And what music was playing?

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It's like, it's not like, it was on a joy,

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which is Europe's national anthem.

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Um, little fact for you.

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Um, uh,

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and then there's that shot up from

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the floor of Theo watching the door open.

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And then when the door is finished opening,

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what does he say?

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What's the line?

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Oh, fuck.

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It is.

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Merry Christmas.

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Oh, yeah.

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He says, Merry Christmas.

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That's right.

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If that's not the nail in

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the coffin for Die Hard

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being a Christmas film,

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I don't know what is.

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The line I think you might

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be thinking of is,

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when Hans Zimmer walks in, he says,

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when Alexander saw the

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breadth of his domain, he wept,

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for there were no more

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worlds left to conquer.

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No,

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the one I was thinking of was earlier

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that, when he goes,

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you asked for a miracle?

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I give you the FBI.

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they got they got the the

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the bargain basement

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terrorist playbook and

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they're running it step by

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step good fucking movie

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best best moment of that

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entire film I reckon is you

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know when the fbi agents

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turned up and it's like

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agent johnson fbi agent

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johnson fbi no relation

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just whoever wrote that uh

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their entire paycheck just

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with that one line that is

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so good that's absolute oh

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a plus plus writing or the

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bit where he's just like

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this is just like saigon a

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slick and he's like yeah

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he's like I was fucking

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nine yeah exactly I was

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five asshole I was in

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junior high I was in junior

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high that's what it was

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yeah that was a junior high dickhead

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I just kind of want to go

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watch Die Hard again.

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Hey, is Bendy in the chat?

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Maybe Ben can take over and

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I'll go watch Die Hard.

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Hey, so speaking of Paul Newman,

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it was stuck the other day

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for a film to watch, right?

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Trying to do this thing of like,

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we now don't

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We're not just going to put

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on random shit from a

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streaming service and watch a film,

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right?

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And, you know,

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like if you just sat on the

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sofa with your other half,

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like there's just infinite

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films that one of you has

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seen and the other one hasn't.

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We threw on Butch Cassidy, right?

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That film stands up.

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It's good.

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Was that on your list or was

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that on your SO's list?

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I've just seen fucking,

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I've seen like all the films, you know,

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right.

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That's always,

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that's always difficult though,

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because I don't know.

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I always like, Oh yeah, I love this movie.

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Then, then I was like, do I really want to,

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cause you know,

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I get to disappoint somebody, right?

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Like it's like slap shot.

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Like, you know,

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You know,

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like it never goes the way you

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think it's going to be like,

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wait for this part.

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And then you look over and you're like,

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I give up.

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I don't know.

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Slap show went down pretty

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well in the South.

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Except for the weird stuff

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with the guy's wife.

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That did not go down well.

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Why is he doing this?

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It's the 70s.

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yeah it's still not cool

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though isn't it wasn't cool

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then it's just like no no

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not really let's be honest

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he's wearing leather pants

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so you gotta give him

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there's like a little bit

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of leeway oh my god that

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all leather outfit that's

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all brown it's all off

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brown isn't it it's just a

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I didn't know that Ode to

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Joy was Europe's national anthem.

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Yeah, the European Union.

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It's the European Union's.

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It's not really a national anthem, I guess,

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is it?

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It's the European Union's

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anthem is Ode to Joy.

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Oh, okay.

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So what's Australia?

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Is it like some ACDC song or something?

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Like, what is it?

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Yes.

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Hell's Bells?

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Which one is it?

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Back in Black or something?

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He's David.

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He's just making fun of Australia.

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Is Null actually frozen?

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Yes.

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I don't think he's moving.

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Now he's just ignoring us.

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I can see the smile coming in.

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So I was talking about going

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to the consensus with my

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other half and they were like, yeah,

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you should head over.

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It'd be good for business.

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It'd be good to meet the boys.

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You've never seen Null to face-to-face.

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He's going to be super sad

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if you don't make the effort.

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And I was like, Null doesn't give a shit.

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He's chilled.

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He's just been like,

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as long as there's beer, I don't care.

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You're coming with your partner?

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No, no, no.

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So I was talking about the

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fact that I had a ticket,

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but I wasn't sure what to do about it.

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And I was kind of told, I was just told,

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you should go, you should go,

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you should go.

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And I was like, okay, that would mean

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having no help with uh with

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the wii one for a whole you

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know seven seven days or so

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and then there was a sudden

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there was like a moment of

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there's that realization

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yeah well I mean I'm sure

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no would be really upset if

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you didn't but it would be

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good to have the help and

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you're like ah you see you

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see that this um but yeah

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who knows might still happen um

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So, news this week.

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What's happening?

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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So,

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you know I was asking about ETH nodes

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earlier.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You were asking a lot of

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questions this week.

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Well, I mean,

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I was getting lavender to do

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my homework for me, of course.

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Basically doing.

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That's exactly what you were doing.

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Hey, look,

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I can't remember every dumb ass

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thing that's happened in the cosmos,

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right?

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And other people have better

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memories than me.

08:10.734 --> 08:12.155
And when I'm writing a paper

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that very strongly relies

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on a hypothesis that really,

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really dumb out of bound

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stuff happens all the time,

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as soon as you have a lot

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of change in production.

08:23.701 --> 08:24.643
I can't remember what dumb

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shit has happened.

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I'm trying to write a piece.

08:27.489 --> 08:28.591
You were also asking about Secret.

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My one knowledgeable... If

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anybody asked me about Secret,

08:32.399 --> 08:33.321
I would go to Schultz.

08:34.184 --> 08:35.764
So that would make sense, right?

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Like, that's exactly who you go to.

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If somebody asks me about Juno,

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I go to you.

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And then I hide over a rock.

08:43.666 --> 08:44.847
Yeah.

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So we did.

08:46.027 --> 08:47.107
So, okay,

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before I move on to my actual question,

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right?

08:49.528 --> 08:50.648
We actually, I guess,

08:50.788 --> 08:52.729
did break the news that

08:53.029 --> 08:54.649
Rhys had left Juno because

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that came out the other day

08:56.070 --> 08:56.950
during the week, didn't it?

08:57.866 --> 08:58.106
It did.

08:58.146 --> 08:59.930
I thought we, didn't we, we heard that,

08:59.950 --> 09:03.216
but it wasn't formalized or we heard it.

09:03.376 --> 09:04.939
And then I couldn't,

09:05.040 --> 09:07.064
I didn't see mention of it, uh, in,

09:09.319 --> 09:10.239
For reasons,

09:10.880 --> 09:13.200
several core Juno chats became

09:13.240 --> 09:14.541
a bit messy for a little bit.

09:14.821 --> 09:17.202
And also, I don't know if, whatever,

09:17.522 --> 09:18.622
things were difficult to

09:18.702 --> 09:19.763
follow or disappeared

09:19.823 --> 09:21.303
entirely for a bit there.

09:21.403 --> 09:22.564
And a number of chats have

09:22.584 --> 09:23.564
been either archived or

09:23.584 --> 09:25.345
deleted since the charts

09:25.405 --> 09:26.145
are coming in as well.

09:26.585 --> 09:27.946
So keeping track of anything,

09:28.006 --> 09:29.026
like if you didn't check it

09:30.054 --> 09:31.015
like twice a day was

09:31.055 --> 09:32.036
actually like a bit messy

09:32.056 --> 09:32.716
there for a second but

09:32.736 --> 09:34.377
anyway so you know fair

09:34.398 --> 09:36.159
enough rama was breaking me

09:36.279 --> 09:37.220
oh there you go in the chat

09:37.280 --> 09:38.120
rama breaking news before

09:38.140 --> 09:39.682
it's public yep that that

09:39.722 --> 09:42.824
ended up happening um so

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but my question about

09:43.905 --> 09:45.947
ethereum was how do you

09:45.987 --> 09:47.468
actually know when uh

09:48.028 --> 09:48.729
because obviously like in

09:48.769 --> 09:49.830
cosmos you know you get

09:49.870 --> 09:51.171
told when there's a software upgrade

09:52.087 --> 09:53.328
Either by watching a GitHub

09:53.368 --> 09:55.510
repo or more likely a Discord channel.

09:56.151 --> 09:56.451
Correct.

09:57.152 --> 09:59.354
Ethereum is like a really big deal, right?

09:59.414 --> 10:01.496
So it will be on

10:01.576 --> 10:03.617
Cointelegraph or wherever.

10:03.637 --> 10:06.360
But like officially,

10:06.420 --> 10:07.561
how are people supposed to

10:07.601 --> 10:09.683
pay attention to binary upgrades?

10:10.717 --> 10:11.017
I don't know.

10:11.917 --> 10:13.078
We have a couple of forums

10:13.138 --> 10:13.858
and things like that that

10:13.878 --> 10:18.000
are basically publicized from teams.

10:18.260 --> 10:19.661
The GitHub repo is probably

10:19.701 --> 10:20.581
the best source of that,

10:20.721 --> 10:21.421
because we watch for

10:21.461 --> 10:22.802
releases on specific things

10:22.822 --> 10:24.262
for geth or other types of areas.

10:25.623 --> 10:26.523
And then it's a lot of

10:26.643 --> 10:27.844
communication around it.

10:28.264 --> 10:29.484
And then eventually, you forget about that,

10:29.504 --> 10:30.145
and your node stops.

10:30.985 --> 10:32.005
That's really how that works.

10:32.165 --> 10:32.946
No different than Cosmos.

10:34.126 --> 10:35.606
When the mode stops and

10:35.626 --> 10:37.647
Major Duty goes off, then you're like, oh,

10:37.687 --> 10:40.007
shit, I guess there's something going on.

10:40.487 --> 10:42.048
Those things can be much more painful,

10:42.068 --> 10:42.188
though.

10:42.588 --> 10:43.548
Do you have a support group

10:43.588 --> 10:45.369
where you then go and find

10:45.409 --> 10:46.449
out what the fuck is going on?

10:46.749 --> 10:47.369
Yeah, basically.

10:47.629 --> 10:48.409
Same type of thing.

10:49.530 --> 10:52.750
Plus, they're so far out to you, usually.

10:52.950 --> 10:55.151
Those are months.

10:55.251 --> 10:57.211
They're not announcing it for seven days.

10:57.352 --> 10:58.652
It's not like a Cosmos upgrade.

10:58.672 --> 10:58.792
Right?

10:59.632 --> 11:00.352
something like that usually

11:00.372 --> 11:02.113
especially fork like like

11:02.894 --> 11:04.814
those are through through

11:04.894 --> 11:06.095
the test nets and then and

11:06.115 --> 11:07.195
then obviously through

11:07.235 --> 11:08.696
mainnet might take two or

11:08.736 --> 11:10.157
three months by the time it

11:10.177 --> 11:11.517
all happens like my other

11:11.557 --> 11:12.838
thing about it's like bear

11:12.858 --> 11:13.978
in mind like last time I

11:14.458 --> 11:15.799
had to run an ethereum node

11:15.859 --> 11:18.180
was on a laptop in 2012 I

11:18.200 --> 11:20.261
actually already checked

11:20.281 --> 11:21.121
whether I actually

11:21.141 --> 11:22.162
successfully mined any

11:22.202 --> 11:24.383
shouldn't I let's put a pin

11:24.403 --> 11:25.383
in that let's put a pin in

11:25.443 --> 11:27.784
that I'm pretty sure that laptop is

11:28.696 --> 11:30.177
I have hard drives here.

11:30.197 --> 11:31.178
I know I have Bitcoin on them.

11:31.398 --> 11:31.778
That's fun.

11:33.439 --> 11:35.381
That suddenly just occurred to me.

11:35.581 --> 11:37.282
I'm sure it's dust because I

11:37.322 --> 11:39.623
was mining it on a 386 back

11:39.663 --> 11:40.344
in the day or something.

11:40.364 --> 11:43.045
I was mining it on a

11:43.186 --> 11:45.587
two-core Sony Vino laptop.

11:47.688 --> 11:51.331
I'm sure there's hundreds of ETH on that.

11:51.591 --> 11:52.852
I was in this house.

11:53.272 --> 11:53.772
It must have been like

11:58.175 --> 12:01.776
Yeah, I think 2014, maybe 15,

12:01.776 --> 12:03.896
something around there.

12:05.156 --> 12:06.577
Is that right?

12:06.737 --> 12:07.877
That seems like it was earlier than that.

12:07.917 --> 12:08.937
That would be far enough

12:09.037 --> 12:09.997
along that it would have

12:10.037 --> 12:12.558
been really hard to mine.

12:12.838 --> 12:13.578
When did that start?

12:13.918 --> 12:13.578
2012?

12:14.318 --> 12:16.938
2013?

12:15.418 --> 12:16.938
2013, I think.

12:17.139 --> 12:17.919
Is that when it was?

12:18.059 --> 12:18.379
Jesus.

12:18.959 --> 12:20.139
It might have been Bitcoin

12:20.159 --> 12:20.999
before Ethereum.

12:21.139 --> 12:21.979
It's weird that it feels

12:22.019 --> 12:23.180
like it should be older than that.

12:26.042 --> 12:27.043
that's not that long ago

12:27.404 --> 12:28.245
like that it seems like

12:28.285 --> 12:29.746
quite a while ago I feel

12:29.986 --> 12:31.989
like like I was young when

12:32.229 --> 12:34.111
ethereum came out I'm old

12:34.171 --> 12:38.075
now yeah um I was old then

12:39.277 --> 12:42.000
cough cough cough so so but

12:42.560 --> 12:43.541
obviously that's that's

12:43.581 --> 12:46.785
kind of viable um now

12:49.403 --> 12:50.924
But yeah,

12:51.024 --> 12:52.105
I guess if it wasn't for the fact

12:52.125 --> 12:53.606
that it was so high profile,

12:53.626 --> 12:54.647
they'd probably have to

12:54.687 --> 12:56.128
come up with a more

12:56.188 --> 12:57.869
formalized release process, wouldn't they,

12:57.889 --> 12:58.490
of some kind?

12:59.591 --> 13:00.511
Sure.

13:00.531 --> 13:02.273
What's the history?

13:02.293 --> 13:03.073
Yeah, what's the question?

13:03.393 --> 13:04.694
Dumb question was,

13:05.775 --> 13:06.996
as somebody who's literally, I could say,

13:07.036 --> 13:08.897
not run the software in 10 years,

13:08.977 --> 13:11.059
probably, if not, yeah,

13:11.079 --> 13:12.160
it would have to be 10 years,

13:12.220 --> 13:13.221
maybe just under 10 years.

13:15.502 --> 13:17.764
So most Ethereum upgrades, right,

13:17.945 --> 13:19.526
to chain state, I suppose,

13:19.606 --> 13:22.369
are described as forks or hard forks,

13:22.429 --> 13:22.649
right?

13:23.710 --> 13:23.910
I mean,

13:23.930 --> 13:25.051
there are upgrades that occur

13:25.091 --> 13:25.772
within there that are

13:25.812 --> 13:27.694
non-breaking that might

13:27.714 --> 13:28.915
provide some sort of whatever, whatever.

13:29.776 --> 13:31.878
So, like, the normal type of upgrade is,

13:31.998 --> 13:33.940
like, in Cosmos, we call that, like,

13:33.960 --> 13:36.462
a non-consensus breaking change, right?

13:36.482 --> 13:38.724
You just update the binary, keep trucking.

13:38.744 --> 13:39.385
Mm-hmm.

13:40.254 --> 13:42.096
Hard fork is that the node

13:42.136 --> 13:43.757
will halt because it cannot

13:43.857 --> 13:45.018
reach consensus.

13:45.058 --> 13:46.499
That's the definition.

13:47.140 --> 13:50.803
But the chain itself is... Well,

13:50.823 --> 13:51.504
I guess they don't really

13:51.544 --> 13:54.526
have chain metadata in the same way,

13:54.586 --> 13:54.907
do they?

13:54.927 --> 13:56.848
Because you're just appending blocks.

13:57.489 --> 13:58.990
So what they call a hard

13:59.050 --> 14:02.433
fork is not... It's a fork

14:02.493 --> 14:03.814
in terms of the software version,

14:03.834 --> 14:04.355
but it's not actually a

14:04.475 --> 14:05.536
hard fork in terms of the...

14:06.747 --> 14:08.288
chain I mean you have to

14:08.388 --> 14:09.648
upgrade the binary in order

14:09.668 --> 14:10.749
for the validate for the

14:10.929 --> 14:12.109
for the miners to continue

14:12.630 --> 14:15.131
but so that's obviously the

14:15.151 --> 14:15.791
difference between each

14:15.831 --> 14:16.771
classic and the other eth

14:16.791 --> 14:18.152
was the state because you

14:18.192 --> 14:19.293
know the binary changes it

14:19.353 --> 14:20.633
has state chain it causes

14:20.653 --> 14:21.373
state changes when the

14:21.393 --> 14:22.474
binary changes and it moves

14:22.534 --> 14:24.515
on right yeah but but now

14:24.595 --> 14:26.376
it's eath proof of stake

14:27.256 --> 14:29.157
has there been a difference in

14:31.189 --> 14:32.290
that mechanism like the

14:32.370 --> 14:33.471
upgrade mechanism basically

14:33.511 --> 14:34.491
how software upgrades

14:34.511 --> 14:35.932
happen has that changed

14:36.493 --> 14:37.713
since the merge or is it

14:37.834 --> 14:39.915
still functionally the same

14:39.975 --> 14:41.516
like when you do an upgrade

14:41.596 --> 14:42.937
a binary upgrade you can

14:42.997 --> 14:44.658
rewrite state you can do

14:44.758 --> 14:45.919
jiggery pokery but the

14:46.059 --> 14:47.120
obviously the chain remains

14:47.940 --> 14:49.301
the same it's not like a

14:49.341 --> 14:50.222
hard fork in the sense of

14:50.242 --> 14:51.503
cosmos where typically it

14:51.543 --> 14:52.724
means the identifier of the

14:52.764 --> 14:53.784
chain is changing because

14:53.844 --> 14:55.165
it's completely I think

14:55.205 --> 14:57.006
it's still probably forks like

14:58.755 --> 15:00.556
with the proof of work previously,

15:00.736 --> 15:01.677
like if some people

15:01.757 --> 15:02.818
upgraded and some didn't,

15:02.858 --> 15:03.598
then it would fork.

15:04.539 --> 15:06.120
I guess it's probably still the same.

15:06.160 --> 15:07.781
Whereas like if, you know,

15:07.841 --> 15:08.682
certain amount of the

15:08.762 --> 15:10.843
validator power upgrades in

15:10.863 --> 15:12.944
a certain amount, doesn't then, you know,

15:13.545 --> 15:14.726
do they just both continue

15:14.766 --> 15:15.686
on their own forks or.

15:16.247 --> 15:17.848
Well, they will have a,

15:19.468 --> 15:19.748
Yeah,

15:19.788 --> 15:23.910
but do you have to have... So say if

15:23.910 --> 15:25.791
60% of the people move on

15:25.831 --> 15:30.473
to the new fork and 40% don't,

15:30.833 --> 15:31.514
then what happens?

15:34.515 --> 15:36.176
I don't know.

15:37.076 --> 15:38.757
I think you can't continue a

15:38.817 --> 15:40.618
fork until you have consensus, right?

15:41.718 --> 15:41.838
Well,

15:41.858 --> 15:43.339
you used to be able to with proof of

15:43.379 --> 15:43.559
work.

15:43.599 --> 15:44.660
You just wouldn't upgrade, right?

15:45.420 --> 15:46.440
Yeah, I mean, with proof of work,

15:46.460 --> 15:47.321
you just keep adding...

15:48.476 --> 15:49.416
blocks because that was the

15:49.456 --> 15:50.897
basis of attacks wasn't it

15:50.917 --> 15:52.157
because you could you could

15:52.197 --> 15:54.418
privately pre-mine a number

15:54.458 --> 15:57.059
of blocks and then um you

15:57.079 --> 15:58.880
know wait wait until uh

16:00.520 --> 16:01.841
watching who you thought

16:01.881 --> 16:02.921
was about to submit like

16:02.941 --> 16:03.501
there's a whole bunch of

16:03.541 --> 16:04.542
game theory on this isn't

16:04.562 --> 16:06.242
there basically of how much

16:06.422 --> 16:08.083
you would I think it's the

16:08.143 --> 16:09.363
answer is two like the most

16:09.403 --> 16:10.864
number of blocks you would want to

16:12.608 --> 16:14.769
pre-mine and not broadcast

16:14.869 --> 16:16.169
before probabilistically

16:16.629 --> 16:18.390
another miner would

16:18.470 --> 16:19.310
probably have found the

16:19.350 --> 16:20.670
solution and you won't get

16:20.690 --> 16:24.892
the reward um by being sort

16:24.912 --> 16:26.352
of semi byzantine I think

16:26.412 --> 16:28.173
it's two because I read a

16:28.213 --> 16:29.433
paper on this some time ago

16:29.453 --> 16:30.513
it was like an old paper

16:30.534 --> 16:31.894
obviously it was like a it

16:31.914 --> 16:33.094
was a paper on attack

16:33.134 --> 16:34.555
vectors in bitcoin and it

16:34.755 --> 16:36.035
then was used in mining

16:36.075 --> 16:38.096
pools but uh sorry in um

16:38.256 --> 16:39.276
ethereum but then it was

16:39.376 --> 16:41.197
used in mining pools but so but

16:42.037 --> 16:43.378
But my question is like, yeah,

16:43.438 --> 16:44.819
when you move to proof of stake,

16:44.919 --> 16:46.760
surely you can't really

16:46.820 --> 16:49.962
have two separate sets of

16:50.002 --> 16:52.184
validators essentially doing that,

16:52.264 --> 16:55.346
like appending new blocks onto forked

16:56.578 --> 16:58.359
versions of the chain state,

16:58.419 --> 17:00.040
because either you're over

17:00.681 --> 17:02.962
consensus power and can add

17:03.042 --> 17:04.723
blocks or you're not.

17:05.023 --> 17:06.364
And the amount of power

17:06.424 --> 17:07.905
required to add blocks is

17:07.965 --> 17:09.666
not in proof of work.

17:09.726 --> 17:11.848
You only need one minor to add the block,

17:12.128 --> 17:12.308
right?

17:13.368 --> 17:16.469
But in most proof of stake,

17:17.029 --> 17:18.549
there is a specific leader

17:19.529 --> 17:22.610
that is selected to mine

17:22.650 --> 17:23.930
that block because they are

17:23.970 --> 17:25.210
participating or deemed to

17:25.230 --> 17:26.110
be participating in

17:26.170 --> 17:27.951
consensus for that block.

17:28.011 --> 17:29.571
So either they commit

17:29.611 --> 17:30.911
something and everybody agrees on it,

17:30.991 --> 17:32.092
or they nil vote, right?

17:32.192 --> 17:33.112
And then there's a nil block.

17:33.252 --> 17:33.512
I mean,

17:33.672 --> 17:35.392
that's really specifically tendermint,

17:35.432 --> 17:38.753
but a lot of proof of stake

17:38.793 --> 17:39.813
systems work in this

17:40.922 --> 17:41.742
conceptually in the same way

17:41.762 --> 17:43.123
they have a leader of some

17:43.163 --> 17:44.243
kind there is a proposer

17:44.323 --> 17:46.204
right um and that's kind of

17:46.244 --> 17:47.264
quite different from proof

17:47.304 --> 17:47.984
of work so that's why I'm

17:48.024 --> 17:49.184
kind of curious as to like

17:49.985 --> 17:50.845
whether there's like

17:50.865 --> 17:52.085
something mechanic uh in

17:52.125 --> 17:53.366
like protocol or mechanism

17:53.486 --> 17:54.306
like there must be

17:54.346 --> 17:54.966
something I guess it's

17:55.006 --> 17:55.806
changed but like as an

17:55.866 --> 17:57.067
operator has it changed at

17:57.187 --> 17:58.387
all or is it just like whatever man

18:00.675 --> 18:01.355
We're not a validator,

18:01.395 --> 18:02.536
so I can't really speak

18:02.556 --> 18:03.196
from that side of it.

18:03.577 --> 18:04.817
I guess you're running a

18:04.837 --> 18:06.278
node on you just for archive state,

18:06.338 --> 18:06.638
right?

18:06.938 --> 18:09.540
We run a ton of RPC nodes, yeah.

18:09.760 --> 18:10.620
But again,

18:11.140 --> 18:12.301
that's not the same thing as

18:12.561 --> 18:13.142
what you're mentioning.

18:15.123 --> 18:16.083
Maybe to answer my question,

18:16.103 --> 18:17.084
we all need to club together,

18:17.284 --> 18:18.004
whatever it is, 32E.

18:18.104 --> 18:21.386
We can, yeah.

18:22.086 --> 18:24.147
Just let's fucking go.

18:24.567 --> 18:26.548
Well, DVT, that's the new hotness now.

18:27.289 --> 18:28.569
The new hotness, DVT.

18:28.589 --> 18:28.690
Yeah.

18:30.470 --> 18:31.991
like a distributed validator

18:32.071 --> 18:33.952
where you can build a small

18:34.033 --> 18:36.874
quorum of four nodes with

18:36.874 --> 18:39.876
25% each and three of those

18:39.936 --> 18:42.658
have to be in the pool or

18:42.698 --> 18:44.479
in the... I guess three of

18:44.499 --> 18:45.539
those have to sign to be

18:45.559 --> 18:46.400
able to sign the block.

18:47.140 --> 18:48.141
And so they're trying to get

18:48.161 --> 18:50.222
away from... It's almost

18:50.282 --> 18:51.663
like a Horcruxy type of

18:51.703 --> 18:53.084
situation where you have

18:53.164 --> 18:54.604
like four nodes run.

18:55.565 --> 18:56.786
But the... So the...

18:58.010 --> 19:01.293
the uh the key right yeah

19:01.333 --> 19:02.734
you shard the key but the

19:02.894 --> 19:05.736
the whole um motivation

19:05.796 --> 19:06.997
behind it is that like

19:07.098 --> 19:09.239
smaller organizations can

19:09.299 --> 19:10.340
band together and run

19:10.420 --> 19:12.342
validators together and

19:12.422 --> 19:13.543
that you can have further

19:13.583 --> 19:15.084
decentralization by having

19:15.204 --> 19:16.946
unrelated entities running

19:18.052 --> 19:19.053
hardware for the same

19:19.113 --> 19:20.114
validators like you might

19:20.154 --> 19:23.816
have um say us three run

19:24.877 --> 19:27.099
hardware through dvt but

19:27.159 --> 19:28.119
still deliver like a

19:28.159 --> 19:30.461
thousand validators yeah so

19:31.162 --> 19:32.242
um it's just that you know

19:32.783 --> 19:34.184
if my cluster of shit goes

19:34.224 --> 19:35.685
down then hopefully your

19:35.725 --> 19:37.066
two clusters of shit pick

19:37.106 --> 19:38.667
up the slack right and then

19:38.707 --> 19:39.648
you get like further

19:39.688 --> 19:40.929
decentralization of it

19:41.880 --> 19:42.801
This is like a classic

19:42.841 --> 19:45.124
example of where being out of ETH means.

19:45.184 --> 19:47.026
I had no idea that that was a thing,

19:47.106 --> 19:48.167
but I literally...

19:50.052 --> 19:51.733
I'm guessing that's relatively recent.

19:52.594 --> 19:54.435
The last year, maybe.

19:54.455 --> 19:55.495
Yeah, I was going to say.

19:55.515 --> 19:56.776
It's Obal and SSV.

19:57.016 --> 19:58.497
We've run some SSV nodes in the past.

19:59.177 --> 19:59.357
Yeah,

19:59.377 --> 20:01.698
so Obal are actually... They were

20:01.818 --> 20:06.801
targeting the Cosmos as

20:06.861 --> 20:11.643
well to use their type of

20:12.284 --> 20:14.445
architecture in the Cosmos.

20:15.245 --> 20:16.006
too how would you do that

20:16.046 --> 20:16.886
how would you do that with

20:16.926 --> 20:18.167
distributed proof of stake

20:18.207 --> 20:19.248
though it's not like you

20:19.268 --> 20:20.068
have evaluators with a

20:20.189 --> 20:21.770
specific amount not that I

20:21.810 --> 20:22.750
wouldn't mind that like no

20:22.790 --> 20:24.051
I know it's just it is

20:24.131 --> 20:25.752
still like it the it would

20:26.013 --> 20:26.813
have the traditional

20:26.873 --> 20:27.974
staking model it's just

20:28.014 --> 20:29.395
that you know instead of

20:29.515 --> 20:30.976
using a horcrux type setup

20:30.996 --> 20:32.497
you would use whatever the

20:32.537 --> 20:34.339
fuck the eyeball um

20:35.119 --> 20:36.660
architecture is to like

20:36.840 --> 20:38.542
shard the key and have multiple um

20:41.083 --> 20:42.363
you know operators run the

20:42.403 --> 20:44.804
same validator that's weird

20:44.864 --> 20:47.325
this is uh this is funny

20:47.345 --> 20:48.885
because like um there was

20:48.945 --> 20:50.086
this discussion basically

20:50.106 --> 20:52.686
about how um nobody like in

20:52.726 --> 20:53.887
the stuff I'm working on

20:53.927 --> 20:55.907
like there hadn't been like

20:55.947 --> 20:57.508
a huge amount of thought on

20:57.608 --> 20:59.888
how there's an entity

20:59.908 --> 21:00.869
called a relayer which

21:00.929 --> 21:04.130
basically it's just a

21:04.190 --> 21:05.710
vector for directing hashes

21:05.790 --> 21:08.971
where hashes are the proofs that

21:10.157 --> 21:12.558
a payment event happened in the past,

21:12.658 --> 21:13.178
even though there's

21:13.218 --> 21:16.079
actually no metadata because it's private,

21:16.359 --> 21:18.360
but it's a blind proof.

21:18.440 --> 21:19.400
So all that's happened is

21:19.440 --> 21:20.780
the proof has happened.

21:21.321 --> 21:22.561
A new Merkle route gets

21:22.641 --> 21:24.422
created and that hash gets

21:24.502 --> 21:25.882
appended to a packet of

21:25.922 --> 21:27.863
hashes that will result in

21:27.923 --> 21:30.143
a new Merkle route that

21:30.223 --> 21:31.724
conceptually is a block,

21:31.764 --> 21:34.205
but it could literally be

21:34.225 --> 21:35.865
at the end of the working day.

21:36.045 --> 21:38.066
You would collect every single hash

21:39.016 --> 21:42.377
in the system that has

21:42.437 --> 21:43.518
transacted that day because

21:43.558 --> 21:44.518
all the payments clear

21:44.558 --> 21:45.499
straight away the second

21:45.519 --> 21:46.519
you have the blind proof

21:47.099 --> 21:48.280
you can pass out of the

21:48.320 --> 21:49.420
boundary of the system and

21:49.820 --> 21:53.662
get fiat right but you your

21:53.722 --> 21:55.442
hash is integrity at a

21:55.502 --> 21:58.744
distance so it's it's another entity

22:00.380 --> 22:02.140
another conceptually another

22:02.180 --> 22:05.121
key has to say yo I i

22:05.401 --> 22:07.161
recognize this proof it has

22:07.221 --> 22:08.802
come from the system it is

22:08.862 --> 22:10.982
a thing I am issuing it and

22:11.022 --> 22:12.603
then it gets redeemed back

22:12.623 --> 22:13.263
through that thing that

22:13.423 --> 22:14.463
that essentially is the

22:14.503 --> 22:15.523
relay and all it's really

22:15.563 --> 22:17.524
doing is that thing which

22:17.604 --> 22:18.624
is done by a cryptography

22:18.664 --> 22:19.544
library and then it just

22:19.564 --> 22:20.724
depends a hash right so

22:21.164 --> 22:22.185
pretty simple piece of

22:22.205 --> 22:24.185
software however if it goes down

22:25.620 --> 22:26.581
the party stops, right?

22:26.841 --> 22:28.402
So the blockchain, all of the,

22:28.422 --> 22:29.923
so there's a ledger,

22:30.043 --> 22:30.684
it could be a blockchain,

22:30.704 --> 22:32.105
it could be whatever, the party,

22:32.746 --> 22:33.526
all of the stuff with the

22:33.546 --> 22:35.448
hashes and everything only

22:35.528 --> 22:37.169
matters if at the end of the day,

22:37.349 --> 22:39.090
you're curious about,

22:40.091 --> 22:43.454
as the person who assigned over funds,

22:43.594 --> 22:44.695
you just need the hash to

22:44.735 --> 22:45.756
prove you did the thing.

22:46.316 --> 22:48.458
Because if you have the proof and the hash,

22:48.538 --> 22:51.760
okay, nobody else,

22:51.940 --> 22:53.622
it's just garbage data for everybody else,

22:53.662 --> 22:53.822
right?

22:54.478 --> 22:55.239
The important thing is if

22:55.259 --> 22:56.579
the relayer goes down,

22:58.461 --> 23:00.102
basically it's the same as a chain halt,

23:00.202 --> 23:00.422
right?

23:01.062 --> 23:04.284
But more than one entity

23:04.304 --> 23:05.565
needs to run a relayer, right?

23:06.145 --> 23:07.126
It would probably be banks

23:07.426 --> 23:08.707
or money service businesses.

23:09.828 --> 23:10.728
There might be eight of them

23:10.788 --> 23:11.589
or ten of them or something.

23:11.889 --> 23:13.150
And there was this real

23:13.210 --> 23:14.070
casualness about it.

23:14.110 --> 23:15.131
Like, oh, yeah,

23:15.171 --> 23:17.352
you just would use the

23:17.392 --> 23:19.614
relayer for your bank or something.

23:20.697 --> 23:21.257
And it's like, well,

23:21.778 --> 23:24.179
but the whole... There's a

23:24.199 --> 23:25.239
whole bunch of stuff here,

23:25.520 --> 23:27.300
which is that the design is

23:27.320 --> 23:28.101
supposed to prevent

23:28.161 --> 23:30.262
metadata leak to your bank

23:30.482 --> 23:32.743
or to Visa for privacy reasons.

23:34.004 --> 23:34.284
And yeah,

23:34.304 --> 23:37.085
they can't see... They can see

23:37.125 --> 23:38.386
that the proof has been created,

23:38.826 --> 23:40.127
but they can't see anything else.

23:40.187 --> 23:41.368
So yeah, you get that, but...

23:42.415 --> 23:43.195
a whole bunch of stuff there

23:43.715 --> 23:45.376
and also like the idea that

23:45.396 --> 23:46.656
your money becomes infunder

23:47.176 --> 23:48.877
non-fungible because like

23:49.737 --> 23:51.058
some system goes down is

23:51.118 --> 23:52.098
like a bit of a bummer and

23:52.118 --> 23:52.938
I know that does happen

23:52.958 --> 23:54.179
with regular banks and

23:54.199 --> 23:55.999
everything um but it's like

23:56.039 --> 23:56.959
you know this has to be

23:57.660 --> 23:58.440
more resilient the whole

23:58.520 --> 23:59.720
cell for this is it's more

23:59.760 --> 24:00.961
resilient than what you got

24:01.021 --> 24:02.141
which is an old cobalt

24:02.181 --> 24:03.741
mainframe in most places

24:03.821 --> 24:06.642
right and um there's this

24:06.762 --> 24:07.683
whole other thing where

24:07.743 --> 24:08.583
technically actually the

24:08.623 --> 24:09.723
relayer could literally be

24:09.743 --> 24:10.784
a bunch of students like

24:10.844 --> 24:11.924
running it on a laptop

24:13.177 --> 24:14.638
All you need to know is how

24:14.678 --> 24:16.059
to address the relayer,

24:17.400 --> 24:18.681
because all it's doing is

24:18.881 --> 24:19.922
transmitting hashes.

24:20.162 --> 24:23.164
There's no security involved

24:23.204 --> 24:25.465
from the operator side

24:25.705 --> 24:27.747
other than the node is down.

24:29.677 --> 24:30.377
everybody was just super

24:30.397 --> 24:31.398
casual about this and so I

24:31.418 --> 24:32.818
was just like this this is

24:32.918 --> 24:34.058
absolute sanity it should

24:34.078 --> 24:34.919
just be a threshold

24:35.359 --> 24:36.419
signature then or something

24:36.439 --> 24:37.800
uh because it's just a

24:37.840 --> 24:40.040
public key but imagine if

24:40.280 --> 24:42.281
like yeah if any of these

24:42.361 --> 24:43.341
rat if the idea because

24:43.462 --> 24:44.242
that's like a whole thing

24:44.302 --> 24:45.242
it's like it's like oh yeah

24:45.282 --> 24:45.982
loads of people would run

24:46.022 --> 24:47.183
these and say okay first of

24:47.203 --> 24:47.923
all I don't think anyone's

24:47.943 --> 24:48.523
gonna run them with an

24:48.923 --> 24:49.844
economic incentive but

24:49.884 --> 24:51.004
second all if you're

24:51.044 --> 24:52.504
assuming that like yeah a

24:52.544 --> 24:53.185
bunch of random

24:53.225 --> 24:54.165
institutions and things

24:54.225 --> 24:54.965
would run them like

24:55.065 --> 24:56.606
universities and yada yada yada

24:57.886 --> 25:00.489
And there's a whole bunch of design around,

25:00.509 --> 25:01.470
do you even need to know

25:01.510 --> 25:02.852
which relayer you're addressing?

25:03.732 --> 25:05.795
It could just be like, whatever's closest,

25:05.815 --> 25:07.436
whatever's paying as best, whatever.

25:07.456 --> 25:08.718
And you're like, okay,

25:08.738 --> 25:11.100
so I just happened to make a transaction.

25:11.160 --> 25:11.961
It goes to the nearest

25:11.981 --> 25:13.002
relayer and it's a bunch of

25:13.022 --> 25:14.163
students mucking around

25:14.223 --> 25:15.164
running on a laptop.

25:15.505 --> 25:16.786
And then my payment gets locked.

25:18.628 --> 25:19.268
That's quite bad.

25:21.044 --> 25:22.325
But anyway, yeah,

25:22.766 --> 25:24.227
basically the DVT design is

25:24.307 --> 25:24.868
I was just like, well,

25:24.888 --> 25:25.348
why don't you just do

25:25.368 --> 25:25.869
something like that?

25:26.609 --> 25:27.650
But I didn't realize that

25:27.670 --> 25:28.751
Ethereum does that.

25:29.232 --> 25:29.892
That's cool.

25:30.613 --> 25:31.334
That's cool.

25:31.814 --> 25:33.376
I like threshold signing in general.

25:33.756 --> 25:36.338
It's pretty cool in terms of

25:36.579 --> 25:37.880
distributing actual

25:37.900 --> 25:39.521
decentralization in practice, I think.

25:40.473 --> 25:40.613
Um,

25:41.294 --> 25:42.715
like the idea of having a sub graphs of

25:42.755 --> 25:44.356
validators is pretty fucking neat.

25:44.696 --> 25:45.296
Uh, it's like whole,

25:45.376 --> 25:46.017
it's a whole other world.

25:46.037 --> 25:46.317
I mean,

25:46.337 --> 25:47.317
the whole idea of being able to run

25:47.358 --> 25:48.158
like a hundred validators

25:48.198 --> 25:49.739
on one box and those types of things,

25:49.759 --> 25:51.480
like it's just, uh, you know,

25:52.020 --> 25:54.342
I think for regulated, uh, use cases,

25:54.402 --> 25:56.223
it's really fucking clever actually,

25:56.263 --> 25:57.384
because if you think about it,

25:57.464 --> 26:00.866
like as a company, we'd be, we'd feel,

26:02.767 --> 26:05.429
we'd feel complex about.

26:07.165 --> 26:08.786
a heavily regulated market.

26:09.006 --> 26:09.546
Entering that,

26:09.766 --> 26:10.547
you'd have to guarantee your

26:10.567 --> 26:11.107
profitability.

26:11.467 --> 26:12.888
The amount of hurdles and

26:12.908 --> 26:13.788
things you need to jump

26:13.928 --> 26:15.729
over in order to get into those markets,

26:16.609 --> 26:17.229
there's a whole bunch of

26:17.249 --> 26:18.310
stuff which is actually

26:18.350 --> 26:20.091
somewhat complex there,

26:20.131 --> 26:21.831
but you could reduce both

26:22.052 --> 26:23.052
the risks to the consumer

26:23.152 --> 26:24.333
and the regulatory overhead

26:24.413 --> 26:26.714
in some senses by saying, well, okay,

26:26.794 --> 26:28.434
what if you just get three

26:28.494 --> 26:30.415
random entities at a

26:30.435 --> 26:32.516
minimum in the software to

26:32.716 --> 26:33.557
actually run this?

26:34.577 --> 26:35.918
suddenly it's like okay your

26:36.399 --> 26:38.400
your loss of your risk of

26:38.460 --> 26:40.121
loss of funds is very very

26:40.221 --> 26:41.522
low with a very small

26:41.542 --> 26:42.523
amount of regulation which

26:42.583 --> 26:44.425
is simply right are these

26:44.505 --> 26:45.986
real companies do they

26:46.086 --> 26:47.267
understand infrastructure

26:47.367 --> 26:49.328
rather than like you know a

26:49.549 --> 26:50.810
mass of red tape I mean I

26:50.850 --> 26:51.530
know that's probably not

26:51.590 --> 26:53.131
how it would pan out but I

26:53.171 --> 26:55.213
think there is like because

26:55.233 --> 26:56.414
I'm having to try and think

26:56.454 --> 26:57.795
about technology solutions and

26:58.697 --> 27:00.058
policy I suppose at the same

27:00.098 --> 27:01.358
time and so I quite like

27:02.099 --> 27:02.959
anything a lot of these

27:02.999 --> 27:04.000
kind of threshold signing

27:04.040 --> 27:05.400
and subgraph things like I

27:05.440 --> 27:06.841
think are really quite nice

27:06.921 --> 27:09.622
in terms of saying like the

27:09.662 --> 27:11.683
big self I think we talked

27:11.703 --> 27:12.864
about a lot like our

27:13.064 --> 27:14.024
fucking dao is a great

27:14.064 --> 27:15.125
example of the big cell of

27:15.165 --> 27:16.005
this technology which is

27:16.105 --> 27:19.187
multilateral entities right that are

27:20.553 --> 27:21.134
It could be anything,

27:21.294 --> 27:22.977
multiple organizations, whatever,

27:23.037 --> 27:24.419
but just pragmatism trying

27:24.459 --> 27:26.441
to get a thing done, get somebody paid,

27:26.481 --> 27:27.683
get some voting done, whatever.

27:29.746 --> 27:31.168
I think it's kind of really

27:31.268 --> 27:32.570
cool to conceptualize

27:32.770 --> 27:33.751
validation and

27:33.811 --> 27:34.973
infrastructure provision for...

27:36.624 --> 27:36.904
you know,

27:37.325 --> 27:38.286
important things where there

27:38.306 --> 27:39.226
might be loss of funds,

27:39.246 --> 27:40.888
like loss of real money, fiat money.

27:41.809 --> 27:42.089
And like,

27:42.109 --> 27:43.530
think about how you could build

27:43.650 --> 27:44.611
out something that's like

27:44.651 --> 27:45.632
multilateral like that.

27:45.672 --> 27:46.453
Like the three of our

27:46.493 --> 27:48.735
organizations could run a relay.

27:50.036 --> 27:50.937
And it's, you know, it's just a,

27:51.117 --> 27:52.398
it's just a public key.

27:52.478 --> 27:53.018
And, you know,

27:53.058 --> 27:55.320
you might be switching Kanga

27:55.340 --> 27:59.244
bucks or freedom bucks or Queenie bucks,

27:59.344 --> 27:59.764
whatever.

27:59.784 --> 28:00.965
Oh no, she's dead.

28:00.985 --> 28:01.526
Yeah.

28:02.026 --> 28:02.546
King bucks.

28:03.247 --> 28:03.727
King bucks.

28:04.047 --> 28:05.728
King bucks is not your company.

28:05.768 --> 28:06.368
I hold some of those.

28:06.388 --> 28:07.509
Those things are worth nothing, I hear.

28:07.549 --> 28:08.629
They're just like confidence

28:08.669 --> 28:09.590
tokens or some shit.

28:09.610 --> 28:10.690
Is that right?

28:10.710 --> 28:10.910
Yeah,

28:10.970 --> 28:12.471
I'm pretty sure I've seen the Reddit

28:12.491 --> 28:12.871
for that.

28:12.891 --> 28:13.612
I'm not happy about it.

28:14.252 --> 28:14.472
King?

28:14.812 --> 28:15.413
I think I have that.

28:16.213 --> 28:16.313
Yeah,

28:16.333 --> 28:17.734
there's a bit of that shit floating

28:17.754 --> 28:17.994
around.

28:19.635 --> 28:20.335
I swear I have some.

28:20.495 --> 28:21.335
Is there KingDAO?

28:21.636 --> 28:23.076
I'm pretty sure I might have

28:23.116 --> 28:24.317
had a couple of King tokens

28:24.357 --> 28:24.957
for the KingDAO.

28:24.977 --> 28:26.178
Is the KingDAO still a thing?

28:26.198 --> 28:26.698
It is.

28:26.718 --> 28:27.659
Yeah, it's KingDAO.

28:27.739 --> 28:29.499
It's been hijacked a couple of times.

28:29.900 --> 28:30.600
When's the airdrop?

28:32.226 --> 28:35.307
When are you going to list Kurt King?

28:36.487 --> 28:38.827
Weren't there a few?

28:39.908 --> 28:42.208
There's like nine King Dows.

28:42.828 --> 28:45.529
Dude, I'm telling you, man.

28:46.389 --> 28:46.949
Identity.

28:49.870 --> 28:50.490
Huge issue.

28:50.510 --> 28:52.850
Yeah.

28:53.091 --> 28:56.151
I don't think we can talk

28:56.191 --> 28:57.872
about it yet because it's

28:57.952 --> 28:59.772
not been announced, but there's a

29:00.302 --> 29:01.302
There's a quite interesting

29:01.342 --> 29:02.263
thing happening in one of

29:02.323 --> 29:05.684
the chains we work on around that,

29:05.784 --> 29:06.585
which is interesting.

29:07.125 --> 29:08.005
Or are all these you?

29:09.506 --> 29:13.588
I've created nine King Dows.

29:13.748 --> 29:15.469
Big Balls, King Dows, Dows.

29:16.009 --> 29:17.069
Cool story, man.

29:17.389 --> 29:18.030
Thanks for that.

29:18.050 --> 29:19.710
Actually,

29:20.911 --> 29:23.852
this looks like an error because

29:24.492 --> 29:25.253
they all kind of have the

29:25.273 --> 29:26.974
same total supply and some other things,

29:27.014 --> 29:27.954
so this must be something else.

29:30.283 --> 29:31.304
I thought you did have

29:31.784 --> 29:33.125
somebody made one up to

29:33.145 --> 29:34.386
make it look like ears or something,

29:34.426 --> 29:34.606
though.

29:36.688 --> 29:37.128
Could be right.

29:37.168 --> 29:39.570
I don't know.

29:40.190 --> 29:42.632
So do you guys recall how like, you know,

29:42.692 --> 29:45.634
during the bull market,

29:45.674 --> 29:46.655
the last bull market,

29:46.675 --> 29:47.636
everyone was always like

29:47.736 --> 29:49.077
sort of... Last week, you mean?

29:49.784 --> 29:51.325
yeah no I mean like the last

29:51.385 --> 29:52.805
last one oh okay hello

29:52.825 --> 29:54.146
before that yeah yeah

29:54.206 --> 29:54.986
everyone was always sort of

29:55.026 --> 29:56.286
like complaining about the

29:56.507 --> 29:59.188
uh the cost to make a

29:59.608 --> 30:00.928
proposal remember that

30:01.028 --> 30:01.749
everyone's always yeah sure

30:01.769 --> 30:02.589
you're gonna make it

30:02.609 --> 30:03.589
cheaper so the plebs can

30:03.629 --> 30:04.910
make proposals for I don't

30:04.930 --> 30:06.350
know community spends or

30:06.370 --> 30:07.771
whatever the plebs

30:08.651 --> 30:10.013
Yeah.

30:11.574 --> 30:13.516
So this week I made a

30:13.556 --> 30:17.319
proposal for a software upgrade on DYDX,

30:17.379 --> 30:17.599
right?

30:17.619 --> 30:18.840
Yeah.

30:18.860 --> 30:20.942
And that shit is expensive.

30:20.962 --> 30:24.045
It cost me fucking six grand to- Yeah,

30:24.065 --> 30:26.066
I was going to say, it's like, isn't it,

30:26.787 --> 30:29.569
was it 5,000 DYDX or something?

30:29.569 --> 30:30.190
2,000 DYDX,

30:30.210 --> 30:32.212
which when I bought- You get it back.

30:32.252 --> 30:33.753
Yeah, but you know,

30:33.793 --> 30:35.675
you've got price risk in that time, but-

30:36.155 --> 30:37.255
But what I mean is like,

30:37.296 --> 30:39.076
it is a fair amount of,

30:39.716 --> 30:42.177
I'm going to say it's a

30:42.217 --> 30:43.958
fair amount of risk because, you know,

30:45.399 --> 30:46.859
what if you get vetoed for some reason?

30:47.440 --> 30:48.180
What if there's a bug in the

30:48.200 --> 30:49.040
software and they're like,

30:49.060 --> 30:50.301
he didn't veto.

30:50.321 --> 30:51.661
Yeah.

30:52.342 --> 30:53.922
Cause you get it back on the note, right?

30:53.942 --> 30:54.883
You just don't get it back on the veto.

30:56.183 --> 30:56.403
Yeah.

30:56.443 --> 30:58.064
You get it back on a note, but not a veto.

30:58.304 --> 30:59.584
I think there may be some

30:59.685 --> 31:00.545
provision that if,

31:02.774 --> 31:05.735
If it doesn't get deposited fully,

31:06.075 --> 31:07.435
you might also lose it.

31:08.816 --> 31:10.596
Oh, meaning if you don't meet the deposit?

31:11.196 --> 31:12.837
That actually might be the case.

31:13.757 --> 31:14.557
Is that right?

31:14.797 --> 31:15.938
I'm not 100% sure.

31:16.038 --> 31:17.658
If that's the case, I think that's a bug.

31:18.758 --> 31:19.559
I think you get it back.

31:19.639 --> 31:21.599
If you don't meet the deposit threshold,

31:21.619 --> 31:22.539
you get your money back.

31:22.939 --> 31:24.040
Is there a command to undeposit?

31:25.580 --> 31:26.480
If you don't meet the deposit,

31:26.500 --> 31:27.221
can you pull that amount?

31:27.241 --> 31:27.981
I think it just gets released.

31:29.059 --> 31:30.160
But there's no time on that, right?

31:30.180 --> 31:30.920
Because there's no period.

31:30.940 --> 31:31.501
No, there is.

31:31.621 --> 31:31.961
There is.

31:32.041 --> 31:34.863
It's long, though.

31:35.084 --> 31:36.044
It's long.

31:36.585 --> 31:37.605
The deposit period, you mean?

31:37.786 --> 31:38.166
Yeah.

31:38.186 --> 31:39.107
The deposit period is like

31:39.127 --> 31:40.528
three to five days, isn't it?

31:40.648 --> 31:42.069
Well, do it on Juno and check it out.

31:43.770 --> 31:45.191
You've got Juno to burn.

31:45.211 --> 31:47.973
Yeah.

31:47.993 --> 31:49.134
So what of Juno now?

31:49.254 --> 31:50.035
Yeah, what's going to happen?

31:50.055 --> 31:50.655
Rhys is gone.

31:51.216 --> 31:51.896
Rhys is bailed.

31:52.096 --> 31:55.859
So what's the future look like there?

31:56.019 --> 31:56.820
Who's steering the ship?

31:57.500 --> 31:58.401
Rama's steering the ship?

32:00.888 --> 32:03.830
Is there anybody working?

32:05.350 --> 32:08.272
So there's like, there is the DAO now,

32:08.292 --> 32:09.172
right?

32:09.733 --> 32:10.373
Yeah,

32:10.493 --> 32:13.275
so what is... Has the charter done

32:13.335 --> 32:15.596
anything besides fire everyone, or...

32:20.189 --> 32:21.030
I don't know.

32:21.510 --> 32:21.990
It's pretty funny.

32:25.312 --> 32:25.672
I don't know.

32:25.692 --> 32:26.813
I don't follow it.

32:26.873 --> 32:27.813
Just reading the comments

32:27.833 --> 32:29.314
from fucking Rama.

32:31.015 --> 32:33.136
Someone said it's time to Cerberus Juno,

32:33.416 --> 32:33.917
Ben Davis.

32:36.558 --> 32:38.539
Rama says it's in the Charter's hands now.

32:38.559 --> 32:39.820
It is.

32:41.242 --> 32:42.384
God's hands now.

32:44.148 --> 32:44.970
Wash our hands of that.

32:44.990 --> 32:46.794
Yeah,

32:46.854 --> 32:49.079
I think I'm definitely going to leave

32:49.139 --> 32:49.260
the...

32:50.643 --> 32:54.325
I'm still part of the delegations now.

32:54.345 --> 32:55.506
I'm going to leave that now, I think,

32:55.586 --> 32:58.507
and just let that ship sail itself.

33:00.288 --> 33:00.469
What,

33:01.089 --> 33:02.450
are you spinning down your validator?

33:02.470 --> 33:04.731
No, no, I was part of the delegations now.

33:05.011 --> 33:07.332
Oh, the delegations now, sorry.

33:07.372 --> 33:07.693
Yeah,

33:08.073 --> 33:10.834
but the last time we did a round on that,

33:10.934 --> 33:12.295
it took hundreds of fucking

33:12.315 --> 33:13.116
hours of my time.

33:13.136 --> 33:15.957
I remember you complaining

33:15.997 --> 33:16.798
about it quite a bit.

33:17.739 --> 33:18.820
Yeah,

33:18.840 --> 33:20.081
it does sound like something I would

33:20.101 --> 33:20.721
complain about.

33:21.442 --> 33:22.262
But like, you know,

33:22.302 --> 33:23.503
all the all the fucking

33:23.523 --> 33:24.724
applications are all like

33:24.764 --> 33:26.145
half of them are just total bullshit.

33:27.106 --> 33:28.847
And you have to go through them as fuck.

33:28.907 --> 33:29.588
It takes forever.

33:30.789 --> 33:31.529
And you ignored people

33:31.569 --> 33:32.410
didn't fill out the form.

33:32.650 --> 33:33.190
It's really annoying.

33:34.431 --> 33:35.552
I purposely did not fill out

33:35.572 --> 33:36.833
the form thinking that that

33:36.873 --> 33:37.974
would make it a differentiator.

33:38.891 --> 33:40.752
Well, UN's notional.

33:44.515 --> 33:45.335
Thinking that you would get

33:45.375 --> 33:46.636
a big delegation.

33:47.216 --> 33:48.177
I bet you would appreciate it.

33:48.877 --> 33:50.318
I didn't add anything to your pile.

33:51.619 --> 33:52.340
And then you stiffed me.

33:52.700 --> 33:53.700
I was like, what the hell, man?

33:54.281 --> 33:56.983
I made your life easier.

33:57.103 --> 33:58.784
Wasn't that post-Prop 16 anyways?

33:58.824 --> 33:59.524
There wasn't a huge amount

33:59.564 --> 34:00.385
of money to be made.

34:01.127 --> 34:02.688
No, it was last year or something.

34:02.908 --> 34:03.408
Yeah, it was.

34:03.929 --> 34:04.029
Yeah.

34:04.049 --> 34:04.129
Yeah.

34:04.149 --> 34:04.269
Yeah.

34:04.289 --> 34:04.369
Yeah.

34:04.389 --> 34:05.029
So there's a whole right.

34:05.049 --> 34:06.990
So I was writing a thing on

34:07.051 --> 34:08.792
economic finality the other day.

34:17.225 --> 34:19.487
And the premise of economic

34:19.527 --> 34:21.508
finality is obviously proof

34:21.528 --> 34:24.250
of stake and stuff, like money, stakers,

34:24.910 --> 34:28.473
secure finality via staking

34:28.533 --> 34:29.654
and then reaching a

34:29.674 --> 34:31.515
threshold of that and then happy days.

34:32.075 --> 34:33.516
And the flip side of the

34:33.576 --> 34:35.898
coin of that is soft slashing,

34:35.978 --> 34:36.638
the slasher,

34:37.319 --> 34:40.081
which stops validators from being down.

34:40.461 --> 34:41.982
And then hard slashing is

34:42.022 --> 34:43.843
kind of a slightly different mechanism.

34:44.986 --> 34:46.347
But economic finality

34:46.427 --> 34:48.568
assumes that bad behavior

34:48.648 --> 34:50.669
or byzantine behavior will

34:50.729 --> 34:52.789
usually be punished economically.

34:54.670 --> 34:56.531
And what I realized,

34:56.711 --> 34:59.512
if you go look at a graph

34:59.873 --> 35:01.393
of Juno's all-time high,

35:02.394 --> 35:04.134
which was the day of or the

35:04.194 --> 35:06.535
day before 16 got published.

35:06.736 --> 35:07.616
It was right around there, yeah.

35:08.143 --> 35:10.405
And then what happens until it's resolved?

35:10.545 --> 35:10.765
Right.

35:10.805 --> 35:11.986
Which it, it,

35:12.446 --> 35:14.448
it bottoms out stabilized for a bit.

35:14.468 --> 35:15.028
And then, you know,

35:15.068 --> 35:16.089
the rest of the bull market,

35:16.829 --> 35:17.710
the rest of the bear market

35:17.730 --> 35:19.391
takes over when terror crashes.

35:19.471 --> 35:19.671
Right.

35:20.672 --> 35:23.694
But the problem is there's

35:23.714 --> 35:24.815
only one data point, right?

35:24.855 --> 35:25.515
So I don't think you can

35:25.575 --> 35:26.856
make this argument other

35:26.896 --> 35:29.158
than as a potential case study, but.

35:31.707 --> 35:33.368
It kind of suggests that

35:33.488 --> 35:36.190
actually proof of stake

35:36.390 --> 35:38.391
isn't quite as flaky as I

35:38.431 --> 35:42.133
think I often suggest it is,

35:42.273 --> 35:43.094
because actually a

35:43.334 --> 35:45.255
Byzantine event occurred,

35:46.196 --> 35:47.937
which was out of band of

35:48.037 --> 35:49.418
the software and the protocol,

35:50.478 --> 35:53.200
and the chain was economically punished.

35:53.220 --> 35:55.601
Like consensus finality,

35:55.661 --> 35:57.342
everything was punished economically.

35:59.611 --> 36:01.712
So I know that's a social

36:01.772 --> 36:02.793
factor because it happened

36:02.833 --> 36:04.594
via market spirits.

36:06.515 --> 36:07.155
But I mean, also,

36:07.215 --> 36:08.656
everything's fucking social.

36:09.737 --> 36:11.298
But it's kind of interesting

36:11.338 --> 36:12.658
that the system might have

36:12.738 --> 36:13.739
worked as intended,

36:14.279 --> 36:16.721
but the developers of the

36:16.761 --> 36:17.581
system thought it would

36:17.721 --> 36:19.882
only be defended by code.

36:20.023 --> 36:21.924
And it turns out it did work as intended.

36:22.384 --> 36:24.285
And in terms of economic mechanism,

36:24.325 --> 36:26.306
it worked as economically intended,

36:26.366 --> 36:27.487
but it was just...

36:28.649 --> 36:28.909
YOLO.

36:29.069 --> 36:30.650
It was just the market that did that.

36:31.130 --> 36:32.511
Isn't that correlation

36:32.551 --> 36:33.392
causation type of thing?

36:33.472 --> 36:36.173
I don't think 16 really impacted price.

36:36.734 --> 36:36.954
Did it?

36:37.134 --> 36:39.716
I think it was highly

36:39.756 --> 36:42.297
coincident with the wider market crash.

36:44.979 --> 36:45.319
I don't know.

36:46.119 --> 36:47.600
It was such a shit show at the time.

36:47.620 --> 36:51.502
I don't think it's a stable

36:51.542 --> 36:53.564
enough asset where even

36:53.624 --> 36:55.005
then people look at it and go, well,

36:55.045 --> 36:55.345
this is...

36:56.138 --> 36:56.958
this is a shit show so I

36:56.998 --> 36:57.818
don't believe in its future

36:57.858 --> 36:58.539
like that was it was a

36:58.559 --> 36:59.499
little bit too degen for

36:59.519 --> 37:01.179
that right so yeah it would

37:01.199 --> 37:02.339
be interesting to see

37:02.359 --> 37:03.120
because obviously

37:03.240 --> 37:03.780
everything would be

37:03.820 --> 37:04.800
possibly would be

37:04.860 --> 37:06.040
correlated to some extent

37:06.120 --> 37:07.020
with with bitcoin or

37:07.040 --> 37:08.741
whatever um but it would be

37:08.781 --> 37:09.721
interesting to see a graph

37:09.801 --> 37:11.601
of all the cosmos chains

37:11.661 --> 37:13.642
during that same period and

37:13.802 --> 37:16.282
see only baby yeah well

37:16.302 --> 37:17.603
that's the thing it would

37:17.643 --> 37:18.903
have something like this

37:19.583 --> 37:20.643
yeah sure it would have all

37:20.663 --> 37:22.424
been down from like march

37:22.624 --> 37:23.684
15th onwards or whatever

37:23.764 --> 37:24.745
whenever it was that we hit

37:25.065 --> 37:26.585
p and started coming down

37:27.125 --> 37:28.746
but it would be interesting

37:28.786 --> 37:30.967
to see very like more

37:30.987 --> 37:34.608
closely uh what the trend

37:34.628 --> 37:35.648
was across all those chains

37:36.188 --> 37:36.988
maybe this is something I'm

37:37.008 --> 37:37.388
going to have to

37:37.428 --> 37:38.329
spreadsheet out at some

37:38.369 --> 37:39.329
point because it might

37:39.389 --> 37:41.530
actually be pertinent it's

37:41.570 --> 37:42.590
kind of not pertinent to my

37:42.650 --> 37:43.690
research just I'm kind of

37:43.730 --> 37:45.031
curious I think that's the problem

37:46.089 --> 37:49.133
Yeah, I think it was such a, I mean,

37:49.193 --> 37:49.793
that event,

37:49.994 --> 37:52.376
while significant in this

37:52.416 --> 37:54.198
little ecosystem, at a macro level,

37:54.239 --> 37:55.080
didn't make any difference.

37:55.200 --> 37:57.182
I think it was all just market, right?

37:57.322 --> 37:58.644
Like Terra was such a

37:58.844 --> 37:59.865
fucking disaster that I

37:59.885 --> 38:01.247
think it dragged everything.

38:01.963 --> 38:02.103
Sure,

38:02.123 --> 38:04.165
but Terra did happen after Juno had

38:04.185 --> 38:04.765
already bottomed.

38:05.245 --> 38:05.426
Yes.

38:05.846 --> 38:07.787
No!

38:08.448 --> 38:09.308
After it bottomed?

38:10.129 --> 38:12.270
Well, it sort of stabilized around, like,

38:12.651 --> 38:15.413
15th of May, thereabouts.

38:15.473 --> 38:16.854
Like, it stopped the kind of, like,

38:17.014 --> 38:19.576
just... It kind of, like, leveled off,

38:19.676 --> 38:20.797
and then, like, Terra hit.

38:21.297 --> 38:22.978
And then the rest of Cosmos

38:22.998 --> 38:25.100
decided to take a bullet to the forehead.

38:25.920 --> 38:26.040
Well,

38:26.060 --> 38:27.021
that would be interesting to know

38:27.221 --> 38:28.522
during... And when was 16?

38:28.522 --> 38:29.503
16 was, like, March, right?

38:29.923 --> 38:30.183
March.

38:32.242 --> 38:33.744
Well, we were on the show,

38:34.205 --> 38:36.169
and it was an early episode,

38:36.649 --> 38:39.154
but we were... No, no, no.

38:39.174 --> 38:42.559
So probably before the podcast started.

38:42.579 --> 38:44.202
Oh, okay.

38:44.603 --> 38:45.544
It must have been pretty damn close.

38:46.474 --> 38:47.895
yeah we started the podcast

38:47.955 --> 38:49.155
we we already said we were

38:49.175 --> 38:49.735
going to do our first

38:49.795 --> 38:50.876
episode and we were trying

38:50.896 --> 38:52.036
to work out when to do it

38:52.437 --> 38:54.558
yeah when prop 16 happened

38:54.578 --> 38:55.438
so I think the first

38:55.478 --> 38:56.679
episode was two weeks after

38:56.719 --> 38:58.079
prop 16 something like that

38:58.499 --> 38:59.260
right because we did that

38:59.280 --> 39:01.160
whole that little live

39:01.200 --> 39:03.522
stream of no console for

39:03.562 --> 39:04.942
two and a half hours yeah

39:04.982 --> 39:06.063
there was that the unity

39:06.223 --> 39:08.204
prop upgrade cyber attack

39:08.224 --> 39:09.044
that was the cyber attack

39:09.657 --> 39:09.957
Oh, okay.

39:09.977 --> 39:11.118
Which was right in the middle of that,

39:11.158 --> 39:11.378
right?

39:11.458 --> 39:13.560
April 8th or something like that.

39:13.620 --> 39:14.561
Yeah, it was a couple weeks after.

39:14.621 --> 39:16.202
So that was in the middle of that as well.

39:16.362 --> 39:18.083
And then 18, and then, yeah.

39:19.324 --> 39:20.785
Like car crash after car crash,

39:21.086 --> 39:22.066
and then you get out of the car,

39:22.106 --> 39:22.527
and then there's a

39:22.567 --> 39:25.549
fucking... Headlights are

39:25.589 --> 39:26.490
right in your face.

39:26.910 --> 39:28.771
No, no, it's Sideshow Bob with the rakes.

39:28.791 --> 39:29.131
Yeah.

39:34.085 --> 39:35.906
um but anyway we should

39:35.926 --> 39:36.586
probably move on from you

39:36.626 --> 39:37.486
know but hey you know what

39:37.806 --> 39:39.587
I think it's I i think look

39:39.627 --> 39:40.487
the only thing about the

39:40.707 --> 39:41.867
the charter thing I think

39:41.967 --> 39:43.248
said in the past like I

39:43.288 --> 39:45.168
hope the charter folks are

39:45.228 --> 39:46.689
able to make a go of it

39:47.609 --> 39:49.710
it's gonna be a big uphill

39:50.390 --> 39:52.951
struggle right let's not be

39:52.991 --> 39:53.511
about the bush

39:54.332 --> 39:56.433
But I think if the founding

39:56.513 --> 39:57.514
people involved in the

39:57.554 --> 40:00.755
chain wanted to rock Juno

40:00.775 --> 40:03.616
and then smoke bomb and disappear,

40:03.636 --> 40:04.777
I don't think there's a

40:04.817 --> 40:05.938
more effective way you

40:05.958 --> 40:08.659
could do it than by handing

40:08.739 --> 40:10.180
over to a charter of people

40:10.280 --> 40:11.700
and being like, yay, democracy.

40:11.820 --> 40:14.021
And then just disappearing

40:14.422 --> 40:16.402
into the sunset.

40:16.442 --> 40:16.863
Amazing.

40:19.044 --> 40:19.264
I mean,

40:20.366 --> 40:21.547
Like if you were going to do

40:21.627 --> 40:23.208
like the playbook of how to

40:23.328 --> 40:24.149
abrogate yourself from

40:24.169 --> 40:29.011
responsibility and that would be exactly,

40:29.452 --> 40:31.373
that would be the ABC of it would be, Oh,

40:31.793 --> 40:33.714
hand over to a jam, a democratic group.

40:34.615 --> 40:35.956
They'll do it better than on Twitter.

40:36.356 --> 40:37.997
Yeah.

40:38.057 --> 40:39.218
Let's only talk on Twitter.

40:40.018 --> 40:43.500
Yeah.

40:44.221 --> 40:45.742
It's the web three forum, man.

40:46.282 --> 40:46.542
It is.

40:46.562 --> 40:47.222
It is.

40:49.119 --> 40:52.680
Checking out Juno Mint Scan.

40:53.220 --> 40:54.460
Oh, yeah, there's still validators.

40:54.561 --> 40:54.781
Cool.

40:56.581 --> 40:56.881
You're like,

40:56.901 --> 40:58.602
am I not getting pager duty

40:58.682 --> 40:59.762
alerts because the chain

40:59.802 --> 41:00.582
has already halted?

41:00.642 --> 41:01.582
No, the chain's still going.

41:02.603 --> 41:04.143
No, we sorted that out.

41:04.163 --> 41:07.264
Our monitoring, me and Serp,

41:07.484 --> 41:09.164
has like little wingdings

41:09.224 --> 41:10.525
in it that alert you when

41:10.585 --> 41:12.425
things stop altogether.

41:13.806 --> 41:17.487
If no response, you get a little tickle.

41:18.267 --> 41:18.407
Yeah.

41:19.946 --> 41:21.147
You get a little tickle that

41:21.227 --> 41:22.608
fucking causes pain.

41:23.249 --> 41:24.089
And then you like,

41:24.570 --> 41:26.251
you mean a little bit and

41:26.271 --> 41:27.252
then read your phone and

41:27.292 --> 41:29.453
then throw it at the wall.

41:30.094 --> 41:32.035
My little, yeah, my little RPC tickler.

41:32.055 --> 41:33.396
I was just looking at that actually has,

41:33.957 --> 41:36.499
has 112 nodes.

41:37.699 --> 41:38.320
So things have,

41:39.020 --> 41:41.702
things have really progressed over here.

41:41.723 --> 41:44.765
So the other day, well, just yesterday,

41:44.825 --> 41:47.427
I think it was, um, you and me, sir,

41:47.467 --> 41:48.788
got jailed on, uh,

41:50.393 --> 41:52.574
that testnet bearer chain.

41:52.594 --> 41:53.695
Yeah, yesterday.

41:53.835 --> 41:55.776
Because of that upgrade.

41:56.157 --> 41:59.939
And there's only 100 blocks window.

41:59.959 --> 42:01.580
I think you got to hit 50%.

42:02.000 --> 42:03.061
But we hit the upgrade.

42:03.501 --> 42:04.842
So what I heard was that I

42:04.882 --> 42:05.522
was ready for it.

42:05.882 --> 42:08.064
And then I think not enough folks were.

42:08.504 --> 42:09.805
The consensus moved forward

42:10.005 --> 42:12.126
on the old binary.

42:13.996 --> 42:14.917
And then it halted.

42:14.937 --> 42:16.439
I got the alert for the halt,

42:16.519 --> 42:17.441
which I thought was the upgrade,

42:17.821 --> 42:18.562
but it was very quick.

42:18.582 --> 42:19.784
They pushed out a new binary.

42:19.864 --> 42:21.766
And then my, whatever I was running was,

42:22.107 --> 42:23.528
was I was out of consensus.

42:23.589 --> 42:24.750
And so then I got jailed.

42:24.810 --> 42:25.411
I was like, what the fuck?

42:25.471 --> 42:26.132
I followed directions.

42:26.653 --> 42:26.853
Come on.

42:26.873 --> 42:27.113
Yeah.

42:27.153 --> 42:28.034
Me, me too.

42:28.235 --> 42:29.897
And the alert, I don't like,

42:30.717 --> 42:32.018
The alert I got when I got

42:32.118 --> 42:33.820
jailed was fucking jarring.

42:34.140 --> 42:36.182
And there was like three of them.

42:36.542 --> 42:38.043
Because there's an unbonding alert,

42:38.063 --> 42:38.944
a jail alert,

42:39.024 --> 42:40.305
and a stall alert all came

42:40.345 --> 42:41.266
through at the same time.

42:41.306 --> 42:43.988
It's like within eight seconds.

42:44.549 --> 42:47.111
Fucking hell.

42:47.271 --> 42:48.492
I don't think I have testnet alerts.

42:48.672 --> 42:50.294
I mean, I get pinged on things,

42:50.654 --> 42:51.515
but I don't have it go into

42:51.535 --> 42:53.256
PagerDuty where it, you know,

42:53.597 --> 42:55.899
where the equity sacks is all over me.

42:56.379 --> 42:57.320
Trying to avoid that shit.

42:58.666 --> 42:59.906
I've been working on like

43:00.006 --> 43:03.127
how to actually filter the

43:03.247 --> 43:04.547
ones that I don't want.

43:04.647 --> 43:06.748
And I did experiment

43:06.808 --> 43:08.248
previously to just exclude

43:08.288 --> 43:10.589
the tag of test net.

43:11.909 --> 43:13.489
But then there are some test

43:13.529 --> 43:15.010
nets that are actually important.

43:15.310 --> 43:19.451
So now I think I'm just

43:19.471 --> 43:20.571
going to put a little

43:20.611 --> 43:24.492
Boolean tag of DGAF true false.

43:25.377 --> 43:27.039
yeah and just default to

43:27.079 --> 43:28.281
false and then you can or

43:28.301 --> 43:29.542
default yeah default false

43:30.203 --> 43:32.546
well it'll it'll um so

43:32.586 --> 43:34.248
it'll just if if the tag's

43:34.288 --> 43:37.632
not set to true it'll maybe

43:37.652 --> 43:39.414
do it maybe do a gaf tag

43:39.454 --> 43:40.415
don't do the double negative

43:42.628 --> 43:44.250
I don't, don't, don't give a fuck.

43:44.430 --> 43:47.234
I don't, I don't not, not give a fuck.

43:47.254 --> 43:48.235
Wait, wait.

43:49.998 --> 43:50.318
Yeah.

43:50.378 --> 43:52.761
The gaff, the gaff tag, the gaff tag.

43:53.302 --> 43:53.482
Yeah.

43:53.502 --> 43:54.123
Default to false.

43:55.124 --> 43:56.486
Default to true.

43:57.487 --> 43:59.169
No, the give a fuck would be default off.

44:00.171 --> 44:00.691
Default on.

44:01.440 --> 44:01.820
Oh, really?

44:02.080 --> 44:02.180
Oh,

44:02.280 --> 44:05.262
that describes both of our node

44:05.282 --> 44:06.682
operations perfectly.

44:15.626 --> 44:16.486
So how many nodes did you

44:16.526 --> 44:17.787
say you're running now?

44:18.787 --> 44:20.348
Well, there's 112 in here,

44:20.428 --> 44:23.149
but that's because each chain,

44:23.789 --> 44:25.190
that's like each individual

44:25.230 --> 44:25.850
chain on a node.

44:26.411 --> 44:27.831
So obviously some nodes run

44:28.191 --> 44:28.772
much more than that,

44:28.812 --> 44:29.712
but some nodes run one.

44:31.262 --> 44:33.003
So there's 112 node

44:33.043 --> 44:34.124
representations of a chain

44:34.164 --> 44:34.845
that are running.

44:34.865 --> 44:35.986
Yeah, I was going to say,

44:36.026 --> 44:36.967
I think you're muddling

44:37.888 --> 44:38.868
nodes and servers.

44:39.349 --> 44:40.850
Oh, I mean, yeah.

44:41.090 --> 44:41.751
Servers, I don't know.

44:41.871 --> 44:42.812
Servers has got to be... I

44:43.933 --> 44:46.355
guarantee we run... We have

44:46.375 --> 44:50.319
to be running 60 outside of

44:50.339 --> 44:50.899
the data center.

44:51.039 --> 44:51.780
There's a shitload.

44:51.800 --> 44:51.780
50?

44:53.241 --> 44:55.183
Last year, that was probably like, what,

44:55.263 --> 44:55.583
zero?

44:56.424 --> 44:56.864
It was probably...

44:57.870 --> 44:58.611
Out of the data center?

44:58.751 --> 44:59.992
Out of the data center, we've probably,

45:00.193 --> 45:01.994
yeah.

45:02.215 --> 45:03.937
In 2022, it was probably like five.

45:03.957 --> 45:05.618
Then last year, yeah.

45:06.940 --> 45:07.881
Added a bunch, right?

45:08.041 --> 45:08.622
Added a lot.

45:08.642 --> 45:09.242
Started doing more.

45:09.262 --> 45:10.203
And then we keep adding more.

45:11.184 --> 45:13.347
So a lot of those would be

45:13.427 --> 45:14.768
like Chainlink and stuff like that,

45:14.788 --> 45:14.988
right?

45:15.369 --> 45:16.510
No, Chainlink's all in the data center.

45:17.219 --> 45:18.300
Actually, that's true.

45:18.401 --> 45:19.041
All the other nodes,

45:19.102 --> 45:20.704
all the L1s that we run are outside.

45:20.724 --> 45:23.247
Actually, they're both inside and outside.

45:23.307 --> 45:24.448
But most of the stuff is RPC.

45:24.609 --> 45:25.930
It's all like Asia, Europe,

45:26.411 --> 45:28.173
whatever else for RPC for the most part.

45:28.754 --> 45:29.275
Yeah, okay.

45:29.395 --> 45:30.256
Asia's a pain, man.

45:30.997 --> 45:31.257
It is.

45:31.618 --> 45:32.138
It's expensive.

45:32.759 --> 45:36.302
But 50 or 60 nodes, that's a lot.

45:37.043 --> 45:40.766
Yeah.

45:40.806 --> 45:42.387
What would be the breakdown

45:42.407 --> 45:45.270
of that in terms of ecosystems?

45:46.751 --> 45:47.812
Is most of that Cosmos?

45:48.913 --> 45:50.715
Well, what do you define as Cosmos?

45:51.455 --> 45:52.196
Well, sorry,

45:52.536 --> 45:55.318
anything that's running like a SDK node.

45:55.459 --> 45:56.960
But I just remembered that

45:56.980 --> 45:57.821
you have a lot of those

45:57.861 --> 46:00.103
would be tied up with the MetaMask thing,

46:00.143 --> 46:00.303
right?

46:01.272 --> 46:01.532
Yes.

46:02.112 --> 46:04.153
And then also Stargaze is in there.

46:04.753 --> 46:07.514
And how many nodes would you

46:07.634 --> 46:08.814
how many separate servers

46:08.834 --> 46:11.375
would you have for Stargaze?

46:11.415 --> 46:12.435
Stargaze is all individual.

46:12.575 --> 46:13.456
They don't run anything else.

46:13.476 --> 46:14.296
They just run Stargaze.

46:14.956 --> 46:15.696
Stargaze right now.

46:15.776 --> 46:15.936
Well,

46:15.956 --> 46:17.477
we're I'm just moving nodes because

46:17.497 --> 46:17.657
we're.

46:18.237 --> 46:19.138
transferring what I'm trying

46:19.158 --> 46:20.078
to do over there is we have

46:20.538 --> 46:21.859
we've used ovh in our past

46:22.239 --> 46:23.260
uh in the us and in europe

46:23.280 --> 46:24.721
and we've also had in asia

46:24.781 --> 46:25.841
which we removed and

46:25.981 --> 46:27.702
western we had two actually

46:28.222 --> 46:29.483
groups in in the us but

46:29.903 --> 46:31.344
honestly that team has done

46:31.364 --> 46:32.185
so much work like the

46:32.245 --> 46:33.165
number of rpc requests

46:33.205 --> 46:36.427
continue to fall um so and

46:36.447 --> 46:37.307
honestly the latency is

46:37.327 --> 46:38.428
pretty good so we haven't

46:38.768 --> 46:39.469
we haven't had any more

46:39.509 --> 46:40.989
additional um regions but

46:41.009 --> 46:41.830
anyway so it's in the us

46:41.870 --> 46:43.471
and it's in europe and then um

46:44.091 --> 46:46.052
And then we're about OVH on both.

46:46.552 --> 46:47.373
And then what we've been doing,

46:47.493 --> 46:48.793
plus we run archives, which are separate.

46:49.634 --> 46:50.454
And then I've been trying to

46:50.474 --> 46:52.315
get away from just being at one provider.

46:52.575 --> 46:53.296
So in the US,

46:53.316 --> 46:54.516
we've added another provider.

46:54.536 --> 46:54.977
We moved it.

46:55.777 --> 46:57.458
We're migrating a node there for IPFS.

46:57.998 --> 46:59.139
And then Europe and Germany,

46:59.179 --> 47:01.440
we've also migrated to another provider,

47:01.480 --> 47:02.901
not Hetzner, a third party,

47:02.921 --> 47:04.081
which actually I'm really

47:04.121 --> 47:04.741
enjoying so far.

47:06.162 --> 47:08.243
And then so now I have load

47:08.283 --> 47:09.684
balancers in Hetzner.

47:10.509 --> 47:11.530
Just today, actually,

47:11.570 --> 47:13.272
we have load balancers in

47:14.534 --> 47:15.374
two separate network

47:15.414 --> 47:18.178
segments on both continents.

47:18.678 --> 47:19.699
So if anybody goes down,

47:19.719 --> 47:20.941
like OVH Europe goes down,

47:21.061 --> 47:21.922
everything's fine, right?

47:21.942 --> 47:22.602
We're still serving.

47:23.283 --> 47:24.585
And the same thing here in the US.

47:25.506 --> 47:27.668
And so we'll move off OVH completely,

47:27.708 --> 47:28.089
probably,

47:28.109 --> 47:29.590
because I have a couple other

47:29.770 --> 47:30.611
providers we've been using

47:30.631 --> 47:31.392
that I've been happy with.

47:32.353 --> 47:33.214
And there's nothing wrong with them.

47:33.234 --> 47:33.735
I just think they're a

47:33.755 --> 47:34.395
little bit overpriced.

47:34.475 --> 47:38.219
And I mean, the support's been okay.

47:39.641 --> 47:40.001
And actually,

47:40.602 --> 47:41.463
we might keep a couple of those.

47:41.503 --> 47:41.883
But it's nice.

47:41.923 --> 47:43.865
I like having, like in those situations,

47:44.566 --> 47:46.127
so we have six nodes that

47:46.287 --> 47:48.089
serve RPC for Stargaze,

47:48.229 --> 47:49.631
including IPFS archives.

47:50.051 --> 47:51.753
And we do image manipulation,

47:51.773 --> 47:52.294
a bunch of other things.

47:52.314 --> 47:53.415
So there's six nodes that do all that.

47:53.955 --> 47:55.157
And then we have two archive nodes,

47:55.577 --> 47:56.799
which will go down to one archive node,

47:56.819 --> 47:57.720
which I just moved also.

47:57.740 --> 48:00.043
I just moved that one as well.

48:00.603 --> 48:02.125
Why are you dropping down that to one?

48:02.165 --> 48:03.227
Just because of the backup

48:03.267 --> 48:04.068
strategy now or?

48:04.767 --> 48:05.968
Yeah, we've always had a backup strategy.

48:06.909 --> 48:09.230
But we have, yeah,

48:09.270 --> 48:10.291
so it's not that big of a deal.

48:10.371 --> 48:11.872
I mean, honestly, we take,

48:12.453 --> 48:13.874
before we were taking bi-weekly,

48:13.914 --> 48:14.855
but now we take a weekly

48:15.415 --> 48:16.636
backup and we push that to

48:16.816 --> 48:17.857
an archive like B2.

48:18.798 --> 48:20.579
So we know that those blocks exist.

48:21.239 --> 48:23.381
I know Jorge runs another one as well.

48:23.661 --> 48:25.162
So there is two within Stargaze.

48:25.242 --> 48:26.383
I just run one of those two.

48:27.884 --> 48:28.805
And then we provide those

48:28.925 --> 48:30.046
archives out if teams need

48:30.066 --> 48:30.806
them and things like that.

48:30.846 --> 48:31.187
So yeah.

48:31.989 --> 48:35.691
how big is the stargaze 4.4

48:35.691 --> 48:37.952
terabytes okay after what

48:37.993 --> 48:40.814
two years after yeah what

48:40.854 --> 48:44.816
was it um october 21 no it

48:44.836 --> 48:46.157
was after osmosis wasn't it

48:47.078 --> 48:48.138
osmosis was october wasn't

48:48.158 --> 48:48.959
it I think it was december

48:48.959 --> 48:50.059
21 something like that

48:50.099 --> 48:51.520
maybe november 21 I could

48:51.540 --> 48:52.181
look at actually I could

48:52.201 --> 48:53.862
just bring up this was spring 21 no

48:56.324 --> 48:56.605
I don't know.

48:56.885 --> 48:57.746
I can, I can actually,

48:57.826 --> 48:59.347
I can just check the status.

49:00.649 --> 49:00.789
Yeah.

49:00.829 --> 49:03.151
It's, I mean, it's, I mean, I mean,

49:03.171 --> 49:04.833
compared to other ones, it's not too bad.

49:04.853 --> 49:06.815
It's getting, it's, I mean, it's, it's,

49:07.235 --> 49:07.656
it's big.

49:07.676 --> 49:09.157
It's annoying.

49:10.799 --> 49:11.039
Yeah.

49:11.059 --> 49:12.160
I mean, it's wow.

49:12.500 --> 49:15.443
So say is already,

49:15.564 --> 49:16.384
how long have we been running?

49:17.465 --> 49:17.826
Eight months.

49:19.333 --> 49:20.594
uh I would no I don't think

49:20.614 --> 49:21.315
it's that long wasn't like

49:21.755 --> 49:22.876
didn't we go mainnet and

49:22.916 --> 49:25.318
like oh well that's right

49:25.338 --> 49:26.218
there was mainnet and there

49:26.258 --> 49:26.979
was like the actual

49:27.059 --> 49:28.300
visibility of mainnet we we

49:28.320 --> 49:29.240
launched mainnet I thought

49:29.300 --> 49:30.781
in may and I think it went

49:31.202 --> 49:32.803
public like in october or

49:32.843 --> 49:35.105
september that's not right

49:36.105 --> 49:37.386
august maybe it was it was

49:37.406 --> 49:38.347
a bunch of months it ran

49:38.587 --> 49:39.428
with nobody knowing right

49:40.128 --> 49:41.849
yeah well regardless it's

49:42.790 --> 49:44.191
it wouldn't be it would be

49:44.231 --> 49:45.672
less than a year definitely

49:45.692 --> 49:46.673
less than a year yeah

49:46.813 --> 49:47.974
probably something like that

49:48.709 --> 49:51.910
And it is already like 12

49:51.910 --> 49:54.530
terabytes or something, 13.

49:54.530 --> 49:54.890
Oh, really?

49:54.970 --> 49:55.210
Actually,

49:55.230 --> 49:56.751
I thought it would have been

49:56.771 --> 49:58.111
longer than that or larger than that.

49:58.171 --> 50:00.591
I thought it was like three terabytes.

50:00.611 --> 50:03.272
It could be 14.

50:03.312 --> 50:04.412
So the way mine,

50:04.692 --> 50:05.772
I don't really know because

50:05.952 --> 50:08.513
mine's compressed in ZFS.

50:08.533 --> 50:11.053
So it doesn't tell me a real file size.

50:11.073 --> 50:14.334
It only tells me the compressed size.

50:14.374 --> 50:14.574
Yeah.

50:15.962 --> 50:16.783
Which you get about,

50:17.203 --> 50:19.264
seems to be about 20%

50:19.264 --> 50:22.106
improvement in storage when you have,

50:22.646 --> 50:22.846
I mean,

50:22.866 --> 50:24.307
you lose that in ZFS anyway with

50:24.327 --> 50:24.808
the overhead.

50:25.428 --> 50:26.889
Yeah, right, right, right, right.

50:27.749 --> 50:27.970
Yeah,

50:28.010 --> 50:29.410
but it's good to claw a little bit of

50:29.430 --> 50:30.171
that back because those

50:30.211 --> 50:31.672
drives are fucking expensive.

50:32.372 --> 50:34.934
Yeah, plus, I mean, Stargate is, I mean,

50:34.974 --> 50:35.654
one great thing about that

50:35.694 --> 50:36.795
chain is also it's very low,

50:37.395 --> 50:39.236
it's low resource requirements.

50:39.256 --> 50:40.457
So, like, we could run it, I mean,

50:40.477 --> 50:41.598
we run it on a fast box and

50:41.718 --> 50:43.319
it's on MVMEs now, but, but,

50:44.335 --> 50:44.475
Like,

50:44.535 --> 50:46.056
it could run on SSDs and it would be

50:46.096 --> 50:46.356
fine.

50:46.516 --> 50:47.216
You know what I mean?

50:47.236 --> 50:48.357
Like, it could lag a little bit.

50:48.377 --> 50:49.397
It wouldn't be that big of a deal.

50:49.717 --> 50:50.838
Yeah, it's not as huge deal.

50:51.038 --> 50:52.619
I'd say, like... Well, we'll see.

50:52.639 --> 50:54.179
Are you going to re... I meant to ask you.

50:54.199 --> 50:56.220
Are you going to re... Are

50:56.240 --> 50:57.321
you going to re-sync from

50:57.361 --> 50:59.682
Genesis when they change to CDB?

51:01.663 --> 51:04.364
So, I've been talking with the engineers,

51:04.764 --> 51:05.885
like, a little while ago.

51:06.225 --> 51:06.485
Yeah.

51:06.585 --> 51:06.725
And...

51:08.234 --> 51:09.495
I can do that.

51:09.515 --> 51:11.135
There's a couple of, like, upgrades.

51:11.155 --> 51:12.916
There are a bit of, like,

51:12.956 --> 51:14.157
some doozy upgrades in there.

51:14.177 --> 51:14.937
I can't remember if there's, like,

51:14.977 --> 51:15.477
some non-concerns.

51:15.537 --> 51:16.558
Oh, they're concerned about those.

51:17.378 --> 51:19.119
Well, I mean, they won't.

51:19.279 --> 51:19.559
I am.

51:19.579 --> 51:21.840
You would not be able to, actually, right?

51:21.860 --> 51:22.860
Because they'd have to

51:22.900 --> 51:23.581
support that all the way

51:23.601 --> 51:24.321
back from block one.

51:24.341 --> 51:25.261
That might be really difficult.

51:26.522 --> 51:26.922
Yeah,

51:27.142 --> 51:28.523
I'd have to look at the upgrade path

51:28.543 --> 51:29.923
to see if it's possible.

51:30.103 --> 51:30.303
But...

51:31.943 --> 51:33.985
I think so you would be able

51:34.025 --> 51:37.427
to make an upgrade handler or something,

51:37.447 --> 51:38.488
uh,

51:38.568 --> 51:41.030
some software to actually transform

51:41.270 --> 51:41.891
the database.

51:41.971 --> 51:43.912
I would assume.

51:43.932 --> 51:46.314
So we have talked about it to see,

51:47.055 --> 51:48.696
but at the time it was still early days.

51:48.736 --> 51:50.277
So probably worth revisiting.

51:51.018 --> 51:51.118
Um,

51:51.398 --> 51:52.819
but they said there would be a lot of

51:52.879 --> 51:53.700
space improvement.

51:54.300 --> 51:55.942
Um, yeah, we're,

51:56.222 --> 51:57.163
we're running it right now

51:57.463 --> 51:58.223
on Atlantic too.

51:58.243 --> 51:58.283
Um,

51:59.664 --> 52:01.325
on a, on our validator notes, just,

52:01.525 --> 52:03.446
just cause we're, they asked,

52:03.507 --> 52:04.467
we're just messing with it

52:04.487 --> 52:04.947
and everything else.

52:04.987 --> 52:05.768
And that that's been,

52:06.108 --> 52:07.269
it's significantly different.

52:07.549 --> 52:10.050
Like, so how did you, how did you,

52:11.670 --> 52:13.190
now run say DB,

52:13.290 --> 52:14.771
is it just an option and

52:14.831 --> 52:16.031
it's built in or is it

52:16.131 --> 52:17.771
extra software you need to install?

52:18.191 --> 52:19.051
It's in 3.6.1.

52:19.531 --> 52:21.292
So it'll be active on mainnet tomorrow,

52:21.452 --> 52:22.792
although it'll take some

52:22.832 --> 52:24.252
time obviously for testing

52:24.292 --> 52:25.552
and configuration, those types of things.

52:25.993 --> 52:27.233
And it's just some config

52:27.253 --> 52:27.993
structure within there.

52:28.373 --> 52:29.373
And so I just re-sync both.

52:29.953 --> 52:30.813
I have a couple of validator

52:30.873 --> 52:31.774
nodes that are in Horx Horx

52:31.794 --> 52:33.194
and I just sync them all on

52:33.214 --> 52:35.334
state sync and then they're on Pebble,

52:35.734 --> 52:37.215
which has been great.

52:37.255 --> 52:39.395
So my feedback has been,

52:39.995 --> 52:41.677
like it's been, it's really, it's been,

52:41.958 --> 52:42.859
it's taken really nothing.

52:42.919 --> 52:43.219
Like it was,

52:43.319 --> 52:44.801
it took me like one configuration change.

52:44.821 --> 52:45.482
I re-sync thing.

52:45.522 --> 52:46.744
They were done like five minutes.

52:48.126 --> 52:48.306
Well,

52:48.326 --> 52:49.708
so you don't need to install any

52:49.748 --> 52:50.889
additional software.

52:51.350 --> 52:51.470
Nope.

52:51.690 --> 52:51.830
Okay.

52:52.010 --> 52:52.491
All in the binary.

52:53.552 --> 52:54.654
It just, it, you know,

52:54.754 --> 52:55.735
and the only thing I saw was like,

52:56.596 --> 52:57.777
like ram and cpu all that

52:57.797 --> 52:58.978
seemed exactly the same and

52:58.998 --> 53:00.099
then my disk utilization

53:00.119 --> 53:02.001
went from like 25 to seven

53:02.541 --> 53:04.043
like just okay just dropped

53:04.063 --> 53:05.304
all the way down and then

53:05.484 --> 53:06.505
and then those are all they

53:06.545 --> 53:07.446
do they still have pruning

53:07.506 --> 53:08.727
on those so I left them as

53:08.747 --> 53:09.708
because they're rpc as well

53:09.728 --> 53:10.489
so I just left the pruning

53:10.589 --> 53:12.030
on and now their default I

53:12.070 --> 53:12.711
think they printed a

53:12.731 --> 53:13.832
hundred thousand blocks or something

53:14.612 --> 53:15.933
um and I can see that bump

53:16.073 --> 53:16.874
but it's not like the old

53:16.894 --> 53:18.294
days like I couldn't even I

53:18.314 --> 53:19.355
can't even run pruning on

53:19.515 --> 53:20.976
say mainnet nodes like I

53:20.996 --> 53:22.237
don't they're all archives

53:22.557 --> 53:24.118
right now because like when

53:24.138 --> 53:25.639
that pruning hits like rpc

53:25.659 --> 53:27.040
slows down I can see it in

53:27.060 --> 53:28.161
the drives like I don't

53:28.181 --> 53:29.621
want that I just want fast

53:29.662 --> 53:30.842
response all the time so I

53:30.862 --> 53:32.003
just that's reason we have

53:32.023 --> 53:34.124
so many notes um so maybe

53:34.144 --> 53:35.565
that will help long term in

53:35.605 --> 53:36.786
terms of the amount of

53:36.826 --> 53:37.747
nodes that need to support

53:38.027 --> 53:39.147
you know requests and those

53:39.167 --> 53:39.608
types of things

53:40.367 --> 53:40.647
Yeah.

53:40.968 --> 53:41.408
It's kind of cool.

53:42.048 --> 53:42.749
That is interesting.

53:43.510 --> 53:43.650
Yeah.

53:43.670 --> 53:45.972
Have you been using load shedding yet on,

53:47.173 --> 53:47.993
on Cloudflare?

53:49.094 --> 53:49.875
No, I don't use it.

53:49.975 --> 53:50.195
No.

53:50.836 --> 53:51.116
Okay.

53:52.197 --> 53:53.718
I just, I mean, I don't do it,

53:54.218 --> 53:54.939
not between regions.

53:54.979 --> 53:57.061
And then within, within HA proxy,

53:57.121 --> 53:59.463
I balance, I can balance across regions.

53:59.503 --> 54:00.123
I can do that,

54:00.343 --> 54:02.445
but I usually only if I can

54:02.465 --> 54:03.606
do that on max connections.

54:04.547 --> 54:04.847
But yeah,

54:06.886 --> 54:07.186
I don't know.

54:07.206 --> 54:08.707
I'd rather, I'd rather have HA proxy.

54:08.727 --> 54:09.927
Just if that has to happen,

54:09.968 --> 54:11.768
I'd rather have HA, um,

54:11.788 --> 54:13.109
just queue the request and

54:13.129 --> 54:15.630
then serve it as it needs as it can, um,

54:15.650 --> 54:16.491
versus trying to have it

54:16.571 --> 54:17.491
shut out to something else.

54:17.531 --> 54:18.152
I don't want to do all that.

54:19.372 --> 54:20.973
And that's like, that would be like 50,

54:20.973 --> 54:21.993
000 requests a second or more.

54:22.033 --> 54:24.715
Like that's fucking, that's crazy degen.

54:27.516 --> 54:29.097
So you reckon a region is

54:29.137 --> 54:30.217
probably good for about 30,

54:30.217 --> 54:31.378
000 or something like that?

54:31.878 --> 54:32.138
A what?

54:32.779 --> 54:33.159
A region?

54:35.762 --> 54:39.004
I think, no, I think us, I mean,

54:39.084 --> 54:40.024
it's different because the

54:40.064 --> 54:41.205
number of TCP connections

54:41.225 --> 54:43.586
that are open at one time to the node,

54:44.246 --> 54:45.707
we limit to, I actually wouldn't say,

54:45.727 --> 54:48.868
I think we limit to like 5,

54:48.868 --> 54:51.489
000 concurrent maybe per node,

54:52.129 --> 54:53.530
but that is way more than

54:53.890 --> 54:54.690
transactions per second

54:54.710 --> 54:55.451
because the transactions

54:55.491 --> 54:57.272
are so fast or requests.

54:57.872 --> 54:59.052
So what that actually serves

54:59.112 --> 55:00.153
is way higher than that.

55:00.613 --> 55:02.354
So all I'm limiting is TCP connections.

55:02.374 --> 55:03.014
That's all I'm limiting.

55:03.550 --> 55:04.630
yeah and then those will

55:04.690 --> 55:05.791
those will queue on the on

55:05.811 --> 55:07.991
the balancers and each

55:08.011 --> 55:09.252
balancer serves half so

55:09.332 --> 55:10.292
like there's like a lot of

55:10.312 --> 55:11.012
headroom you know what I

55:11.032 --> 55:13.313
mean um and even on even on

55:13.353 --> 55:14.873
those large mints I might

55:14.993 --> 55:17.114
see a thousand or more

55:17.374 --> 55:18.495
connections back up for

55:18.555 --> 55:20.835
like for like one spot on

55:20.875 --> 55:22.756
each and one like one hit

55:22.816 --> 55:23.536
and then after that they're

55:23.556 --> 55:24.676
gone like they're fine like

55:24.736 --> 55:26.297
so it's within it's within seconds

55:27.130 --> 55:31.074
You can limit those per server,

55:31.114 --> 55:31.494
by the way.

55:31.514 --> 55:32.435
That's what I do.

55:32.836 --> 55:33.917
If you have stronger servers,

55:33.937 --> 55:34.738
you can actually

55:34.858 --> 55:37.340
individually specify the TCP limit.

55:37.661 --> 55:39.182
That's what I do.

55:39.642 --> 55:40.764
It's at the server level.

55:41.344 --> 55:42.245
The way I heard that,

55:42.285 --> 55:43.086
I thought it was global.

55:43.621 --> 55:46.004
No, well, global on the HAProxy side,

55:46.064 --> 55:47.365
like how many can total come in,

55:47.425 --> 55:49.227
which is higher because I want a queue.

55:49.327 --> 55:51.009
And then, because otherwise it'll reject,

55:51.409 --> 55:52.190
like it'll reject them,

55:53.372 --> 55:54.052
which I don't want because

55:54.072 --> 55:55.073
then that comes back as a

55:55.073 --> 55:56.475
500 to the client because

55:56.515 --> 55:57.136
Cloudflare gets it.

55:57.656 --> 55:57.916
And then,

55:58.036 --> 55:59.158
and you can control it at the

55:59.178 --> 55:59.878
individual level, yeah.

56:00.940 --> 56:02.061
So you could have like,

56:02.901 --> 56:06.502
the the individual back ends

56:06.922 --> 56:08.602
with TCP limits and then a

56:08.642 --> 56:10.162
global limit for the queue

56:10.482 --> 56:12.943
and then and then you could

56:13.003 --> 56:14.423
load shed to other regions

56:14.503 --> 56:15.843
if it fills up you could

56:15.863 --> 56:17.704
yeah you can do that in ha

56:17.744 --> 56:18.644
like you could say because

56:18.664 --> 56:20.004
I have backups on even on

56:20.044 --> 56:20.624
the nodes that are in

56:20.684 --> 56:21.644
region so if all those

56:21.684 --> 56:22.625
nodes are down it'll still

56:23.005 --> 56:23.905
redirect it to somewhere

56:23.945 --> 56:25.045
else and you can do that

56:25.085 --> 56:26.045
based on load too you could

56:26.065 --> 56:27.105
say if these are full then

56:27.446 --> 56:28.546
then send send some to

56:28.586 --> 56:29.826
North America if I'm in Europe

56:30.666 --> 56:32.907
Yeah, find another home.

56:33.327 --> 56:34.328
Suffer is fucking awesome, dude.

56:35.609 --> 56:36.509
There's so much shit there.

56:37.390 --> 56:38.230
All to help support.

56:38.750 --> 56:41.552
I'm glad you moved to our proxy.

56:42.052 --> 56:43.253
All to support these degens.

56:44.073 --> 56:44.634
It's amazing.

56:45.734 --> 56:47.936
So, yeah, the mints, right?

56:47.956 --> 56:48.896
It's all about the mints.

56:49.456 --> 56:50.597
It's all about the mints.

56:51.858 --> 56:52.238
That's right.

56:52.338 --> 56:52.718
All right,

56:52.738 --> 56:57.081
you guys going to talk about the news?

56:57.661 --> 56:57.821
Adam?

57:00.256 --> 57:01.517
time for the listeners want

57:01.557 --> 57:04.139
to know the chat when is

57:04.379 --> 57:07.301
the detailed coverage of

57:07.381 --> 57:08.702
adam was I don't even know

57:08.722 --> 57:09.663
what that is so it's

57:09.683 --> 57:10.404
perfect time for you guys

57:10.944 --> 57:12.745
yeah neither do I do you

57:13.306 --> 57:15.467
the phrase I mean I've read

57:15.508 --> 57:17.489
about it in the in the

57:17.529 --> 57:18.850
spreadsheet while you guys

57:18.870 --> 57:20.131
were talking about ha proxy

57:20.171 --> 57:22.072
and I was like I was like I

57:22.653 --> 57:24.434
i mean it sounds like a

57:24.474 --> 57:25.295
party that's all I know

57:26.164 --> 57:27.324
Reverse proxies.

57:27.344 --> 57:29.785
Whatever, man.

57:30.705 --> 57:32.165
I don't know, man.

57:33.906 --> 57:34.106
Yeah.

57:35.966 --> 57:36.626
What the fuck?

57:37.987 --> 57:38.827
This is one of those things

57:38.867 --> 57:39.887
that I can't trigger.

57:41.087 --> 57:41.267
Nope.

57:42.227 --> 57:42.648
But yeah,

57:42.708 --> 57:45.948
so I read a thread on it while

57:45.968 --> 57:47.349
you guys were talking about HA proxy.

57:47.369 --> 57:51.790
I wouldn't say I'm hugely the wiser but

57:56.852 --> 57:57.733
All right, you guys are working out.

57:58.794 --> 57:59.334
Yeah.

58:01.096 --> 58:04.879
See you, man.

58:04.899 --> 58:06.340
So, right,

58:06.480 --> 58:08.962
here is my attempt at

58:09.002 --> 58:11.785
summarizing what the Atom Wars thing is,

58:11.865 --> 58:12.085
right?

58:13.626 --> 58:13.887
So,

58:15.068 --> 58:20.432
if you lock up some atom for a longer

58:20.512 --> 58:21.413
period of time,

58:23.380 --> 58:25.003
You can have boosted

58:25.604 --> 58:29.111
decision-making power over

58:31.856 --> 58:35.483
which projects get funding from Atom.

58:38.044 --> 58:39.985
right like through the

58:41.165 --> 58:42.405
community pool or is this

58:42.465 --> 58:44.606
something else there's a um

58:44.806 --> 58:47.327
a uml diagram with lots of

58:47.407 --> 58:49.468
boxes on it that explains

58:49.808 --> 58:51.908
how the gnomes will collect

58:51.928 --> 58:53.449
the underpants and turn it

58:53.509 --> 58:57.750
into profit oh um you know

58:57.810 --> 58:59.391
whatever this mechanism is

58:59.791 --> 59:01.111
but the mechanism is called

59:01.331 --> 59:02.752
atom wars and the

59:03.993 --> 59:06.114
the war I guess is the

59:06.535 --> 59:07.795
projects that want the

59:07.916 --> 59:09.617
funding I think I mean it's

59:09.637 --> 59:10.597
a bit of a weird thing like

59:10.677 --> 59:11.638
it's like yeah let's call

59:11.678 --> 59:13.359
it atom wars it's like I

59:13.379 --> 59:15.400
mean there's a war in

59:15.500 --> 59:16.761
ukraine's war in the

59:16.781 --> 59:17.822
there's always war in the

59:17.842 --> 59:18.762
middle east I suppose but

59:18.782 --> 59:19.763
you know there's a lot of

59:19.983 --> 59:22.065
real wars at the moment and

59:22.105 --> 59:22.885
you're just kind of like

59:23.806 --> 59:25.907
what a kind of downer name to give it

59:27.625 --> 59:28.826
like these projects,

59:28.866 --> 59:31.867
those doggy dog to bring liquid,

59:31.927 --> 59:33.808
to bring ideas to the hub.

59:34.108 --> 59:35.688
And you're just like, well, you know,

59:35.748 --> 59:38.429
maybe like, I hate to be that guy,

59:38.469 --> 59:40.430
but maybe collaboration is the,

59:41.291 --> 59:42.771
is the dominant strategy here.

59:42.791 --> 59:46.473
I don't know the whole,

59:46.493 --> 59:47.313
the whole thing's bizarre.

59:47.353 --> 59:47.493
Right.

59:47.513 --> 59:47.773
Okay.

59:47.793 --> 59:48.754
So, okay.

59:48.794 --> 59:50.214
Like Rama's Ram,

59:50.234 --> 59:52.335
what I'm calling Rama's razor, right?

59:52.455 --> 59:53.396
Rama's razor.

59:54.556 --> 59:56.537
People are only in crypto.

59:57.580 --> 59:59.622
to forget about their day job for a bit,

59:59.943 --> 01:00:02.145
have a bit of fun, make a bit of money,

01:00:02.365 --> 01:00:02.585
right?

01:00:02.846 --> 01:00:03.967
Web3 casino.

01:00:04.728 --> 01:00:06.429
Rama's razor, right?

01:00:06.690 --> 01:00:10.073
Never attribute to higher,

01:00:10.113 --> 01:00:11.355
more evolved thinking what

01:00:11.395 --> 01:00:12.556
can more adequately be

01:00:12.636 --> 01:00:14.198
explained by degeneracy.

01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.661
Okay, using Rama's razor,

01:00:17.761 --> 01:00:18.963
we might consider...

01:00:20.396 --> 01:00:24.058
Why would a random person, D-Gen,

01:00:24.258 --> 01:00:27.639
if you will, Danny D-Gen, on the street,

01:00:27.839 --> 01:00:28.859
Jimmy Smallballs,

01:00:29.660 --> 01:00:30.820
they are going to go to

01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:35.362
their crypto exchange of choice,

01:00:36.142 --> 01:00:38.543
buy some Atom, stake it,

01:00:38.683 --> 01:00:39.884
and then lock it up for a

01:00:39.944 --> 01:00:41.444
longer period of time in

01:00:41.484 --> 01:00:42.765
order to vote on which

01:00:42.825 --> 01:00:43.905
projects get funding.

01:00:44.306 --> 01:00:45.306
That sounds like fun.

01:00:47.273 --> 01:00:48.273
Am I being thick here?

01:00:48.854 --> 01:00:49.174
I mean,

01:00:49.774 --> 01:00:51.054
this is my understanding of the

01:00:51.134 --> 01:00:52.335
Atom Wars concept.

01:00:54.335 --> 01:00:57.876
To me, just quickly brushing up on it,

01:00:58.737 --> 01:00:59.997
it looks to me like

01:01:00.077 --> 01:01:01.918
something more along the lines of,

01:01:02.698 --> 01:01:03.738
was it Curve?

01:01:05.399 --> 01:01:06.019
Was it Curve?

01:01:07.319 --> 01:01:12.461
Yeah, with the liquidity back, right?

01:01:13.137 --> 01:01:13.317
Well,

01:01:13.778 --> 01:01:15.119
there was one of those protocols in

01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:15.699
Ethereum.

01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:17.721
It seems similar to whatever

01:01:17.781 --> 01:01:18.601
one it is I'm talking about,

01:01:18.961 --> 01:01:20.202
where you would, you know,

01:01:21.243 --> 01:01:22.864
basically want to become a

01:01:22.924 --> 01:01:24.326
whale in that token so that

01:01:24.346 --> 01:01:25.266
you could direct the

01:01:25.306 --> 01:01:26.727
rewards towards your pools.

01:01:27.408 --> 01:01:27.768
Pretty sure.

01:01:27.808 --> 01:01:28.008
Yeah.

01:01:28.088 --> 01:01:28.309
Yeah.

01:01:28.349 --> 01:01:29.770
So you have like, yeah, you have like a,

01:01:30.290 --> 01:01:31.851
I guess like a bonding curve of sorts.

01:01:33.232 --> 01:01:33.332
Yeah.

01:01:33.352 --> 01:01:34.894
It was more like, you know,

01:01:35.434 --> 01:01:37.055
through the DAO and the governance,

01:01:37.095 --> 01:01:39.377
you could like direct your pool.

01:01:40.325 --> 01:01:42.509
ben says uh work well for

01:01:42.549 --> 01:01:44.592
wind wind gauges was was

01:01:44.632 --> 01:01:48.298
this right yeah yeah does

01:01:48.318 --> 01:01:49.260
anyone look at those anymore

01:01:50.120 --> 01:01:52.282
is wind even live I don't

01:01:52.302 --> 01:01:55.324
know um but yeah so this

01:01:55.344 --> 01:01:56.045
sort of seems like a

01:01:56.085 --> 01:01:57.626
similar thing where you can

01:01:58.847 --> 01:02:00.869
take your your atoms or you

01:02:00.889 --> 01:02:02.390
can become an atom's whale

01:02:02.550 --> 01:02:04.131
to try and boost your

01:02:04.212 --> 01:02:06.213
project with you know the

01:02:06.253 --> 01:02:07.354
stronger token of the

01:02:07.454 --> 01:02:12.518
ecosystem by staking it long time and uh

01:02:13.439 --> 01:02:15.580
directing those sick sick

01:02:15.620 --> 01:02:17.561
fundings to your to your

01:02:17.581 --> 01:02:19.382
project but I don't know

01:02:19.463 --> 01:02:20.323
like what's what's the

01:02:20.363 --> 01:02:22.864
point of the why have the

01:02:23.105 --> 01:02:24.285
extra vote power for

01:02:24.425 --> 01:02:28.928
locking your up like I

01:02:28.948 --> 01:02:30.489
think that risk is too like

01:02:30.529 --> 01:02:33.110
the the uh the risk to

01:02:33.150 --> 01:02:35.111
capital is probably too high for

01:02:36.221 --> 01:02:37.942
any projects to really want

01:02:37.982 --> 01:02:40.062
to do that and who is an

01:02:40.122 --> 01:02:41.683
individual wants to get

01:02:41.743 --> 01:02:42.943
their fucking jimmy small

01:02:42.963 --> 01:02:44.363
balls one vote turned into

01:02:44.404 --> 01:02:46.104
four votes for taking a

01:02:46.144 --> 01:02:48.065
year of capital risk

01:02:48.945 --> 01:02:49.725
doesn't really make much

01:02:49.765 --> 01:02:51.526
fucking sense to me so in

01:02:51.546 --> 01:02:53.186
the chat uh people are

01:02:53.226 --> 01:02:54.987
saying you'll get bribes

01:02:56.252 --> 01:02:58.514
also knows airdrops for

01:02:58.574 --> 01:02:59.914
locking from projects.

01:03:00.595 --> 01:03:00.875
Well,

01:03:01.556 --> 01:03:02.956
airdrops are bullshit in themselves

01:03:03.016 --> 01:03:04.137
because they're usually

01:03:04.217 --> 01:03:05.238
funded by the fucking

01:03:05.258 --> 01:03:06.159
community themselves.

01:03:06.219 --> 01:03:07.960
They provide that liquidity

01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:09.060
and then rape themselves.

01:03:09.481 --> 01:03:09.681
Okay,

01:03:09.701 --> 01:03:11.162
but there's two different types of

01:03:11.202 --> 01:03:11.902
airdrops, right?

01:03:12.042 --> 01:03:12.343
There's

01:03:13.343 --> 01:03:14.624
uh there's like the app

01:03:14.664 --> 01:03:16.386
chain winter airdrops where

01:03:16.466 --> 01:03:17.386
like somebody had bought

01:03:17.386 --> 01:03:18.968
100 atoms and then they got

01:03:18.968 --> 01:03:20.609
100 osmo then they had 100

01:03:20.609 --> 01:03:23.251
juno then you know that was

01:03:23.431 --> 01:03:24.452
if you were jimmy small

01:03:24.492 --> 01:03:26.333
balls and you had picked up

01:03:27.754 --> 01:03:29.976
like like I still hold a

01:03:30.016 --> 01:03:31.217
bunch of atom that I picked

01:03:31.297 --> 01:03:32.498
up when it was like what a

01:03:32.538 --> 01:03:33.659
dollar something like that

01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:34.980
if you picked up a hundred

01:03:35.020 --> 01:03:36.621
dollars worth of atom at

01:03:36.641 --> 01:03:37.582
the beginning of that run

01:03:38.911 --> 01:03:40.752
and then stake to whatever,

01:03:42.733 --> 01:03:43.594
those incentives,

01:03:43.614 --> 01:03:44.514
those additional airdrops

01:03:44.855 --> 01:03:45.515
would have added up,

01:03:45.795 --> 01:03:46.936
if you'd sold at the right time,

01:03:47.756 --> 01:03:48.657
to quite a lot of cash.

01:03:48.817 --> 01:03:50.958
So I kind of get it.

01:03:51.038 --> 01:03:54.721
If that's what you're going to get,

01:03:54.781 --> 01:03:56.161
like Ben Davis says in the chat,

01:03:56.201 --> 01:03:59.163
you get bribes for locking your funds.

01:03:59.223 --> 01:04:00.684
But that could be a

01:04:01.605 --> 01:04:02.845
significant chunk of change.

01:04:03.526 --> 01:04:06.488
Except that, when has it ever been

01:04:07.412 --> 01:04:09.193
worth bothering to take on

01:04:09.233 --> 01:04:12.514
the risk except in that

01:04:12.755 --> 01:04:14.775
early period of chain

01:04:14.816 --> 01:04:16.216
launches like there are

01:04:16.256 --> 01:04:17.197
some exceptions to this

01:04:17.257 --> 01:04:18.957
rule of course but a lot of

01:04:19.017 --> 01:04:20.518
the airdrops that have come

01:04:20.558 --> 01:04:22.919
along since I mean possibly

01:04:22.959 --> 01:04:24.180
this is also the speed of

01:04:24.260 --> 01:04:25.701
execution but I you know

01:04:26.021 --> 01:04:27.101
we've certainly noticed

01:04:27.141 --> 01:04:29.282
that by the time we check

01:04:29.462 --> 01:04:32.824
on a thing that we have it's usually not

01:04:34.093 --> 01:04:35.014
particularly profitable,

01:04:35.074 --> 01:04:37.315
especially all of the CW 20

01:04:37.315 --> 01:04:40.577
type derivative things have

01:04:40.657 --> 01:04:41.278
not been really

01:04:45.106 --> 01:04:47.167
really uh worthwhile it's

01:04:47.227 --> 01:04:48.407
actually in the chat ben

01:04:48.427 --> 01:04:49.368
davis has pointed out the

01:04:49.428 --> 01:04:50.788
tier airdrop okay the tier

01:04:50.868 --> 01:04:52.509
airdrop uh for some people

01:04:52.589 --> 01:04:55.230
was was significant um ours

01:04:55.290 --> 01:04:57.771
wasn't um I don't know why

01:04:57.831 --> 01:04:58.491
actually I think we should

01:04:58.531 --> 01:04:59.792
have got well whatever who

01:04:59.832 --> 01:05:02.313
knows anyway um relay has

01:05:02.353 --> 01:05:05.134
got a lot for uh tier maybe

01:05:05.154 --> 01:05:06.014
that's why because because

01:05:06.034 --> 01:05:06.854
some of you guys got a

01:05:06.874 --> 01:05:08.415
significant chunk of change didn't you

01:05:09.525 --> 01:05:11.126
Not me specifically,

01:05:11.246 --> 01:05:12.966
but I know some of the

01:05:13.006 --> 01:05:14.707
other squad did who are

01:05:14.787 --> 01:05:16.067
like prolific relayers.

01:05:16.087 --> 01:05:17.747
Prolific.

01:05:18.087 --> 01:05:19.608
Prolific relayers got the,

01:05:19.868 --> 01:05:21.168
especially the likes of

01:05:21.188 --> 01:05:23.129
like Crypto Crew and stuff like that.

01:05:23.169 --> 01:05:24.089
I think they did quite well

01:05:24.129 --> 01:05:24.769
out of that airdrop.

01:05:25.529 --> 01:05:27.590
But yeah,

01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:31.091
like the real heavy fucking DGN relayers.

01:05:32.802 --> 01:05:33.622
I'm a degen.

01:05:33.863 --> 01:05:35.003
Louder!

01:05:35.323 --> 01:05:36.224
I'm a degen!

01:05:36.324 --> 01:05:37.725
Even louder!

01:05:37.905 --> 01:05:38.825
I'm a degen!

01:05:42.807 --> 01:05:43.528
It's a new one.

01:05:45.609 --> 01:05:46.670
I'm sure Yusef is going to

01:05:46.710 --> 01:05:47.950
have fun having to edit

01:05:47.990 --> 01:05:50.252
that into the audio version

01:05:50.292 --> 01:05:50.952
of the podcast.

01:05:51.736 --> 01:05:53.276
well he will be really

01:05:53.316 --> 01:05:55.217
pissed because I used that

01:05:55.797 --> 01:05:57.197
when he uploaded it and he

01:05:57.257 --> 01:05:58.918
wanted to use it so now

01:05:58.938 --> 01:06:00.018
it's already out there and

01:06:00.698 --> 01:06:02.238
it's been done and I didn't

01:06:02.318 --> 01:06:03.679
use it at a great time so

01:06:03.699 --> 01:06:04.879
you know it's probably

01:06:04.899 --> 01:06:05.819
going to be like double the

01:06:05.879 --> 01:06:07.700
timing the timing was not

01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:10.160
was not spot on was it I

01:06:10.200 --> 01:06:12.181
mean the I did use the term

01:06:12.201 --> 01:06:14.161
dgen before I well but the

01:06:14.221 --> 01:06:15.341
time to do it would have

01:06:15.381 --> 01:06:17.562
been when we introduced ram as razer

01:06:18.726 --> 01:06:20.988
and then said the word DJ

01:06:21.008 --> 01:06:24.190
and then it would have been

01:06:24.210 --> 01:06:31.274
bam slick transition so so

01:06:31.774 --> 01:06:33.836
the other thing with due

01:06:33.916 --> 01:06:37.338
credit to Rama's headline

01:06:37.378 --> 01:06:38.379
writing skills I should

01:06:38.419 --> 01:06:41.100
probably expand a little

01:06:41.120 --> 01:06:42.441
bit on what we've been

01:06:42.481 --> 01:06:44.923
provided as a heads up on this but

01:06:45.930 --> 01:06:46.591
because I think this is

01:06:46.651 --> 01:06:47.352
actually quite funny.

01:06:47.752 --> 01:06:50.275
So the headline we were given on this,

01:06:50.695 --> 01:06:51.837
now we've muddled our way through it.

01:06:52.037 --> 01:06:52.758
It's time to now.

01:06:52.878 --> 01:06:54.620
We're really deconstructing

01:06:54.640 --> 01:06:55.961
the concept of news here by

01:06:56.081 --> 01:06:57.623
starting with working out

01:06:57.643 --> 01:06:58.604
what the heck is going on

01:06:58.624 --> 01:07:01.147
and working our way back to the headline.

01:07:01.167 --> 01:07:01.247
So

01:07:02.316 --> 01:07:03.017
Atom Wars,

01:07:03.537 --> 01:07:05.318
the latest in a myriad of Cosmos

01:07:05.338 --> 01:07:09.301
Hub narratives, Informal,

01:07:09.341 --> 01:07:10.682
who sold all of their Atom

01:07:10.722 --> 01:07:11.702
funding allocation,

01:07:11.983 --> 01:07:13.303
now want retail to lock up

01:07:13.343 --> 01:07:14.524
their Atoms for up to one

01:07:14.564 --> 01:07:15.945
year to get additional

01:07:15.985 --> 01:07:18.227
voting power to direct liquidity to DEXs.

01:07:18.747 --> 01:07:21.789
People at Informal, brackets open, Dyborg,

01:07:22.049 --> 01:07:22.770
brackets closed,

01:07:23.270 --> 01:07:24.351
seem to think people want

01:07:24.391 --> 01:07:25.792
to buy Atom and lock it for

01:07:25.812 --> 01:07:27.573
a year to increase their voting power,

01:07:28.193 --> 01:07:29.214
while selling all of their

01:07:29.314 --> 01:07:30.655
Atom funding allocations

01:07:31.035 --> 01:07:31.896
every time they get them.

01:07:33.888 --> 01:07:34.148
You know,

01:07:34.248 --> 01:07:36.409
it's hard to determine whether

01:07:36.469 --> 01:07:38.091
this is an introductory

01:07:38.251 --> 01:07:40.772
statement to Atom Wars or

01:07:40.812 --> 01:07:42.173
whether this is purely a

01:07:43.094 --> 01:07:45.616
vehicle to have a stab at informal.

01:07:46.376 --> 01:07:48.438
Anti-war.

01:07:48.538 --> 01:07:49.779
I mean, why not both?

01:07:49.799 --> 01:07:50.619
Why not all three?

01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:53.001
Yeah, sure.

01:07:53.701 --> 01:07:54.802
I mean,

01:07:54.882 --> 01:07:56.283
sledging has kind of always been in

01:07:56.303 --> 01:07:57.784
the spirit of Game of Nodes, has it not?

01:07:59.928 --> 01:08:01.890
As an extension of crypto itself,

01:08:02.551 --> 01:08:04.012
I think it's only apt that

01:08:04.052 --> 01:08:06.134
we embrace sledging at every opportunity.

01:08:07.155 --> 01:08:08.377
There you go.

01:08:08.577 --> 01:08:09.638
Speaking of which,

01:08:11.319 --> 01:08:12.260
the other piece of news I

01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.042
gather is that Noble are

01:08:14.703 --> 01:08:16.244
releasing a derivative asset,

01:08:18.006 --> 01:08:19.247
just like a treasury bill.

01:08:20.649 --> 01:08:21.529
I don't think I care.

01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:22.010
Do you care?

01:08:23.174 --> 01:08:25.195
Well, sort of.

01:08:27.055 --> 01:08:28.096
It is interesting that

01:08:28.136 --> 01:08:29.296
someone's brought this to

01:08:29.336 --> 01:08:30.597
market finally after

01:08:30.657 --> 01:08:34.978
everyone's talked about it for decades.

01:08:34.998 --> 01:08:36.039
So... My question would be,

01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:38.700
why would you buy this on

01:08:39.120 --> 01:08:42.181
Noble and not just buy the Treasury bill?

01:08:44.042 --> 01:08:47.103
So, regardless of the actual assets...

01:08:48.450 --> 01:08:49.831
just the mere concept of

01:08:49.931 --> 01:08:52.612
bringing real world assets

01:08:53.172 --> 01:08:54.793
into a blockchain

01:08:54.833 --> 01:08:58.314
representation I like noble

01:08:58.374 --> 01:09:00.856
is so new though and I

01:09:01.556 --> 01:09:03.337
don't know that if I was

01:09:03.437 --> 01:09:04.537
for example going to

01:09:04.617 --> 01:09:07.158
tokenize my house I would

01:09:07.258 --> 01:09:08.659
home it on noble I'd

01:09:08.699 --> 01:09:09.680
probably be looking at

01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:10.580
something more like

01:09:10.860 --> 01:09:15.082
ethereum but uh you know

01:09:16.722 --> 01:09:18.743
I'm on board with the concept.

01:09:18.763 --> 01:09:21.185
Like, I think in terms of, like,

01:09:22.065 --> 01:09:24.406
human evolution and going forward, like,

01:09:24.446 --> 01:09:25.507
this is the type of stuff

01:09:25.527 --> 01:09:26.407
that'll need to happen

01:09:26.447 --> 01:09:29.189
eventually if blockchain is

01:09:29.269 --> 01:09:30.170
indeed the future.

01:09:31.130 --> 01:09:33.431
So... Well, I mean,

01:09:33.471 --> 01:09:34.552
I think there's a question mark there,

01:09:34.572 --> 01:09:34.712
right?

01:09:34.732 --> 01:09:35.973
It's a step in a direction.

01:09:36.493 --> 01:09:38.634
Yeah, it's a step in a direction.

01:09:38.654 --> 01:09:41.836
I think the idea that it's necessarily...

01:09:45.799 --> 01:09:46.861
I happen to think that

01:09:46.921 --> 01:09:48.663
tokenization in a bunch of

01:09:48.723 --> 01:09:49.584
cases makes sense.

01:09:50.245 --> 01:09:52.567
I think my concern is kind of like yours.

01:09:54.747 --> 01:09:55.607
The way it's going to go in

01:09:55.627 --> 01:09:57.348
the UK by look of it is

01:09:57.448 --> 01:09:59.389
that fund and asset

01:09:59.409 --> 01:10:00.510
tokenization will happen.

01:10:01.330 --> 01:10:03.171
Real world asset tokenization will happen.

01:10:03.711 --> 01:10:05.432
It will happen through regulated entities.

01:10:07.393 --> 01:10:10.014
So for all of that stuff, right?

01:10:10.054 --> 01:10:12.975
Like for example,

01:10:12.995 --> 01:10:16.417
a CBDC would never happen without Bitcoin,

01:10:16.437 --> 01:10:16.597
right?

01:10:17.278 --> 01:10:20.364
They wouldn't have arrived at that.

01:10:20.424 --> 01:10:21.887
It is part of a wider discussion.

01:10:21.967 --> 01:10:23.109
I think it's just that I

01:10:23.170 --> 01:10:24.051
personally am not going to

01:10:24.091 --> 01:10:25.294
shoulder the risk of a

01:10:25.334 --> 01:10:26.536
real-world asset like this.

01:10:27.097 --> 01:10:27.178
And

01:10:29.708 --> 01:10:31.368
And also, bluntly,

01:10:31.969 --> 01:10:33.749
there's a lot of fintech

01:10:33.809 --> 01:10:34.830
innovation at the moment

01:10:35.090 --> 01:10:36.271
outside of crypto.

01:10:36.311 --> 01:10:41.393
So I can get an ISA in the

01:10:41.453 --> 01:10:45.775
UK and buy treasury bills from my phone.

01:10:45.835 --> 01:10:46.915
I could set it up probably

01:10:46.935 --> 01:10:47.776
in the course of about 25 minutes.

01:10:49.818 --> 01:10:51.562
And I can buy 28-day UK

01:10:52.464 --> 01:10:54.067
government treasury bills.

01:10:54.107 --> 01:10:54.348
Now,

01:10:55.531 --> 01:10:57.415
you might not want to because the UK

01:10:57.575 --> 01:10:59.439
is a clown car, right?

01:11:04.007 --> 01:11:04.588
Generally speaking,

01:11:04.608 --> 01:11:06.109
your average investor is going to invest.

01:11:06.289 --> 01:11:07.650
If they're going to buy government debt,

01:11:07.670 --> 01:11:08.690
they'll buy government debt

01:11:08.710 --> 01:11:09.611
from their own country

01:11:09.691 --> 01:11:10.491
because it's typically

01:11:10.591 --> 01:11:11.892
easier from a regulatory

01:11:11.952 --> 01:11:13.053
and access perspective.

01:11:13.433 --> 01:11:16.555
So given these US treasury bills,

01:11:16.635 --> 01:11:19.857
maybe that's the appeal is that it's,

01:11:20.277 --> 01:11:20.497
I guess,

01:11:20.557 --> 01:11:23.179
a simple way for an investor like, say,

01:11:23.239 --> 01:11:25.480
me to buy US government debt,

01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:26.401
except that if you're kind

01:11:26.441 --> 01:11:27.922
of a little bit more sophisticated,

01:11:28.222 --> 01:11:29.583
you kind of know how you

01:11:29.623 --> 01:11:31.464
can buy US government debt anyway.

01:11:35.040 --> 01:11:36.540
And if you buy it directly

01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:38.001
via an already regulated

01:11:38.081 --> 01:11:39.621
entity outside of crypto, you know,

01:11:39.661 --> 01:11:41.842
if anything goes wrong, you know,

01:11:42.022 --> 01:11:44.023
you have some recourse

01:11:44.383 --> 01:11:45.423
depending on the scenario,

01:11:45.463 --> 01:11:46.643
depending on what happens.

01:11:49.024 --> 01:11:49.464
I don't know.

01:11:49.784 --> 01:11:50.004
Yeah.

01:11:50.304 --> 01:11:51.285
It's all about risk, isn't it?

01:11:51.305 --> 01:11:52.585
It's all about risk management.

01:11:52.885 --> 01:11:57.006
So, but then it's all tricky, isn't it?

01:11:57.026 --> 01:11:57.866
Because like, you know,

01:11:57.886 --> 01:11:58.407
even like we were talking

01:11:58.427 --> 01:11:59.527
about with the banks the other day,

01:12:00.959 --> 01:12:02.480
What's the actual reality?

01:12:02.620 --> 01:12:03.661
If every bank failed,

01:12:03.721 --> 01:12:05.522
would you actually be made whole on your,

01:12:05.722 --> 01:12:07.164
whatever it is, in Australia, $200,000?

01:12:07.164 --> 01:12:07.444
Yeah,

01:12:07.584 --> 01:12:13.748
so I think the Australian government

01:12:13.788 --> 01:12:18.932
guarantee is $250,000 for that bank.

01:12:18.972 --> 01:12:20.393
Not per account, just for that bank.

01:12:20.773 --> 01:12:22.274
Yeah, if the contagion was bad enough,

01:12:22.314 --> 01:12:22.574
though,

01:12:22.654 --> 01:12:24.155
would you actually get that money back?

01:12:25.576 --> 01:12:25.917
Ah, pfft.

01:12:27.816 --> 01:12:28.237
I don't know.

01:12:28.277 --> 01:12:29.838
Like if all of the banks collapsed,

01:12:29.958 --> 01:12:31.899
I find it hard to believe that you would.

01:12:31.919 --> 01:12:33.980
I think it's more to protect individual,

01:12:34.481 --> 01:12:36.122
like individual people from

01:12:36.302 --> 01:12:37.382
individual collapses,

01:12:37.483 --> 01:12:39.464
not related to like a wider economy.

01:12:40.220 --> 01:12:42.181
uh economic problem like

01:12:42.241 --> 01:12:43.501
more of a mismanagement of

01:12:43.941 --> 01:12:45.042
I mean I guess to be fair

01:12:45.082 --> 01:12:46.742
in 2008 they literally did

01:12:46.842 --> 01:12:48.082
bail out banks in order to

01:12:48.122 --> 01:12:49.443
secure consumer deposits

01:12:49.463 --> 01:12:50.483
that was the stated reason

01:12:50.503 --> 01:12:51.223
I know there was actually a

01:12:51.263 --> 01:12:52.184
lot more going on behind

01:12:52.204 --> 01:12:53.624
the scenes but there were a

01:12:53.664 --> 01:12:55.985
couple of high street banks

01:12:56.085 --> 01:12:57.105
that literally were going

01:12:57.125 --> 01:12:58.085
to be insolvent and

01:12:58.186 --> 01:12:59.426
experience the bank run and

01:12:59.466 --> 01:13:00.506
were propped up for that

01:13:00.526 --> 01:13:02.787
reason I believe I believe

01:13:02.887 --> 01:13:03.567
that the government

01:13:03.667 --> 01:13:05.148
actually bailed in is the

01:13:05.168 --> 01:13:06.308
term that's proper

01:13:07.757 --> 01:13:08.918
Sorry, bailed in.

01:13:09.679 --> 01:13:10.079
My bad.

01:13:12.801 --> 01:13:13.742
Ben says in the chat,

01:13:13.782 --> 01:13:14.723
does it being on chain mean

01:13:14.763 --> 01:13:15.924
market can run 24 seven

01:13:15.944 --> 01:13:17.085
instead of during office hours?

01:13:17.605 --> 01:13:19.587
I don't think so because I'd

01:13:19.607 --> 01:13:20.388
be very surprised if it

01:13:20.428 --> 01:13:21.809
could because it's just a

01:13:21.869 --> 01:13:22.810
real world asset, right?

01:13:22.830 --> 01:13:24.151
Which was traded on exchange.

01:13:25.473 --> 01:13:26.414
will have to work to the

01:13:26.474 --> 01:13:28.335
exchange hours so again

01:13:28.395 --> 01:13:29.335
typically in emerging

01:13:29.575 --> 01:13:30.716
fintech products where you

01:13:30.776 --> 01:13:32.317
can do this via an app at

01:13:32.377 --> 01:13:33.877
any time you can usually

01:13:33.997 --> 01:13:35.618
lodge an order out of hours

01:13:35.658 --> 01:13:36.399
or something like that and

01:13:36.439 --> 01:13:38.279
it will get executed at the

01:13:38.620 --> 01:13:40.541
opening of play whatever

01:13:40.581 --> 01:13:42.542
that company's you know

01:13:42.642 --> 01:13:43.922
link to the mainline system

01:13:44.202 --> 01:13:45.383
kind of activates after

01:13:45.423 --> 01:13:46.824
trading begins or whatever

01:13:47.574 --> 01:13:48.394
I think the broader

01:13:48.434 --> 01:13:49.575
discussion for that is when

01:13:49.595 --> 01:13:50.495
are we going to do away

01:13:50.535 --> 01:13:52.216
with sophisticated traders

01:13:53.016 --> 01:13:55.037
having to work in their fucking schedule?

01:13:55.658 --> 01:13:56.818
Because there is no reason

01:13:56.898 --> 01:14:02.160
why the exchange can't be open 24-7.

01:14:02.180 --> 01:14:05.022
The exchange is not how it

01:14:05.102 --> 01:14:05.962
used to be where you'd

01:14:06.002 --> 01:14:07.903
throw tickets around on a trading floor.

01:14:07.963 --> 01:14:09.143
It's now digitized.

01:14:09.544 --> 01:14:11.104
There is no reason why it can't run 24-7.

01:14:12.737 --> 01:14:14.498
It is just that the people

01:14:14.578 --> 01:14:15.859
who... I think it's so that

01:14:15.919 --> 01:14:18.761
very wealthy bankers... Can sleep.

01:14:19.441 --> 01:14:19.941
Can sleep.

01:14:21.362 --> 01:14:23.484
No, I'm not being facetious.

01:14:23.564 --> 01:14:24.244
I think it's so that...

01:14:25.930 --> 01:14:27.030
Because think about it, right?

01:14:27.070 --> 01:14:30.171
So we all have pager duty, right?

01:14:30.591 --> 01:14:32.391
Because at any point,

01:14:32.711 --> 01:14:34.192
something bad could happen

01:14:34.372 --> 01:14:35.552
that pulls you out of bed.

01:14:36.172 --> 01:14:37.552
If you have trading hours

01:14:38.253 --> 01:14:39.233
for the exchanges,

01:14:40.093 --> 01:14:41.313
the absolute worst case

01:14:41.333 --> 01:14:42.673
scenario thing that could happen,

01:14:42.713 --> 01:14:44.594
which is a market crash or a bank run,

01:14:45.274 --> 01:14:49.455
cannot happen while your home exchange,

01:14:50.055 --> 01:14:51.375
New York Stock Exchange, whatever,

01:14:51.395 --> 01:14:52.435
London Stock Exchange,

01:14:53.636 --> 01:14:55.016
name your one of choice.

01:14:57.220 --> 01:14:58.241
is closed, right?

01:14:58.641 --> 01:15:01.903
I genuinely think it's so that bankers,

01:15:02.723 --> 01:15:04.624
investment managers, hedge fund traders,

01:15:04.685 --> 01:15:05.545
and the financial sector

01:15:05.565 --> 01:15:07.066
more generally can

01:15:07.146 --> 01:15:10.628
guarantee that once they're off the clock,

01:15:11.088 --> 01:15:11.909
they can do what they want

01:15:11.929 --> 01:15:13.150
in their evening and have a

01:15:13.190 --> 01:15:13.770
good night's sleep.

01:15:15.631 --> 01:15:16.512
That's it.

01:15:16.612 --> 01:15:17.232
I don't think it's any more

01:15:17.252 --> 01:15:17.833
complicated than that.

01:15:18.433 --> 01:15:19.073
They don't want to be on

01:15:19.113 --> 01:15:19.954
pager duty forever.

01:15:19.994 --> 01:15:20.714
They want their money and

01:15:21.855 --> 01:15:23.116
they want it without pager duty.

01:15:23.564 --> 01:15:24.564
I mean, I think you're right,

01:15:24.604 --> 01:15:25.725
but I don't think it's also

01:15:25.785 --> 01:15:26.986
much of a stretch to just

01:15:27.026 --> 01:15:28.526
man the desk 24 seven.

01:15:29.567 --> 01:15:31.848
No, but you know, you see margin call,

01:15:31.888 --> 01:15:32.128
right?

01:15:33.589 --> 01:15:34.989
Probably film, right?

01:15:35.569 --> 01:15:36.750
Have you seen how pissed off

01:15:36.810 --> 01:15:38.131
Jeremy irons looks in that

01:15:38.191 --> 01:15:39.391
film that he's been pulled

01:15:39.451 --> 01:15:40.992
out of bed to deal with that crisis?

01:15:43.288 --> 01:15:44.249
they yeah but you know

01:15:44.269 --> 01:15:46.251
that's acting snooty rich

01:15:46.291 --> 01:15:47.572
dude right well yeah but

01:15:47.652 --> 01:15:48.813
it's good acting and that

01:15:49.053 --> 01:15:50.474
it would be it would be the

01:15:50.514 --> 01:15:51.515
real life version that

01:15:51.535 --> 01:15:52.536
would be a lot less uh

01:15:52.636 --> 01:15:53.717
civil I would imagine

01:15:56.414 --> 01:15:58.495
It would be a lot later.

01:15:58.635 --> 01:16:01.977
He's just like, and you're like, oh,

01:16:02.217 --> 01:16:02.618
acting.

01:16:02.958 --> 01:16:04.899
What a great actor.

01:16:05.539 --> 01:16:07.100
In real life, they'd just be like,

01:16:07.140 --> 01:16:08.681
how fucking dare you pull

01:16:08.721 --> 01:16:09.982
me out of bed for this bullshit?

01:16:10.022 --> 01:16:10.702
What's going on?

01:16:11.223 --> 01:16:12.003
We're insolvent.

01:16:12.724 --> 01:16:13.664
Damn it, James.

01:16:14.064 --> 01:16:14.705
God damn it.

01:16:14.725 --> 01:16:15.886
You woke me for that.

01:16:16.266 --> 01:16:17.166
You woke me for that.

01:16:17.747 --> 01:16:18.247
Don't you know the

01:16:18.307 --> 01:16:19.668
government will bail us out?

01:16:20.268 --> 01:16:21.289
Don't you know I have

01:16:21.509 --> 01:16:22.810
friends in the government?

01:16:23.490 --> 01:16:24.791
We'll blame poor people,

01:16:24.851 --> 01:16:25.851
don't you understand?

01:16:26.131 --> 01:16:27.912
And it will be poor people's fault.

01:16:28.092 --> 01:16:29.813
It was the plebes.

01:16:30.733 --> 01:16:32.674
It turned out it was the plebes all along.

01:16:32.754 --> 01:16:35.775
So, yeah.

01:16:37.356 --> 01:16:38.096
Gansi's out.

01:16:38.596 --> 01:16:38.837
Peace.

01:16:39.677 --> 01:16:39.977
Peace.

01:16:40.777 --> 01:16:41.038
Peace.

01:16:41.618 --> 01:16:43.138
Yeah, I mean, you know,

01:16:43.579 --> 01:16:44.519
just start 24-7 trading.

01:16:44.539 --> 01:16:44.699
You know...

01:16:48.007 --> 01:16:49.048
the americans aren't the

01:16:49.108 --> 01:16:50.928
only ones who trade on

01:16:50.968 --> 01:16:53.009
american stocks right every

01:16:53.049 --> 01:16:53.910
time I have to put in a

01:16:53.970 --> 01:16:55.190
trade I have to stay up

01:16:55.230 --> 01:16:56.311
till two o'clock in the

01:16:56.351 --> 01:16:57.251
morning to make sure it

01:16:57.291 --> 01:16:59.032
goes through and that's a

01:16:59.072 --> 01:17:00.413
pain in the ass so not

01:17:00.473 --> 01:17:01.353
content with being a

01:17:01.393 --> 01:17:03.494
degenerate in the in the

01:17:03.554 --> 01:17:05.495
crypto markets you insist

01:17:05.555 --> 01:17:07.016
on also being a degenerate

01:17:07.096 --> 01:17:08.497
in the stock markets

01:17:09.747 --> 01:17:11.427
If there is a legitimate

01:17:11.527 --> 01:17:13.268
opportunity for degeneracy,

01:17:13.908 --> 01:17:16.429
then I don't see why I

01:17:17.209 --> 01:17:19.189
should exclude myself from it on purpose,

01:17:19.949 --> 01:17:21.150
even if that means staying

01:17:21.210 --> 01:17:22.350
up to 2 o'clock in the morning.

01:17:22.850 --> 01:17:25.091
Your tolerance for risk and

01:17:25.191 --> 01:17:27.211
energy for it continues to amaze me.

01:17:27.231 --> 01:17:28.651
That's probably why you

01:17:28.671 --> 01:17:29.632
always look so tired.

01:17:30.112 --> 01:17:30.792
To be fair,

01:17:31.612 --> 01:17:33.533
my energy is slowly being

01:17:33.573 --> 01:17:34.213
beaten out of me.

01:17:35.560 --> 01:17:35.840
Yeah.

01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:36.181
I mean,

01:17:36.201 --> 01:17:37.802
I hate to say it for the like 18th

01:17:37.862 --> 01:17:39.763
week in a row, but you're looking tired,

01:17:39.803 --> 01:17:40.024
man.

01:17:41.265 --> 01:17:43.246
You know, on a scale of one to 10,

01:17:43.246 --> 01:17:44.827
I'm probably about a 13 and

01:17:44.867 --> 01:17:46.309
a half on like exhaustion.

01:17:46.709 --> 01:17:48.430
But I feel like if you take

01:17:48.470 --> 01:17:49.431
your foot off the gas,

01:17:49.471 --> 01:17:50.372
you're probably just going

01:17:50.392 --> 01:17:51.092
to fall on a heap.

01:17:51.172 --> 01:17:53.314
So yeah, that's what,

01:17:53.354 --> 01:17:53.995
that's what happened to me.

01:17:54.035 --> 01:17:54.315
I took,

01:17:54.775 --> 01:17:56.717
I took two days away from my laptop

01:17:56.937 --> 01:17:58.859
over Christmas and then it

01:17:58.959 --> 01:18:00.700
ended up being obviously

01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:01.681
pager duty was on.

01:18:01.801 --> 01:18:02.021
Right.

01:18:02.221 --> 01:18:04.243
And you know, whatever.

01:18:04.977 --> 01:18:06.738
But I then just didn't fucking,

01:18:06.818 --> 01:18:11.001
I literally went, put it in, uh, yeah,

01:18:11.041 --> 01:18:12.562
just like put it in a part of book.

01:18:12.642 --> 01:18:13.562
So where I couldn't see it

01:18:13.963 --> 01:18:15.143
and then didn't look at it

01:18:15.303 --> 01:18:18.425
for 14 days and just, you know,

01:18:18.465 --> 01:18:19.826
when you have that weird thing, you know,

01:18:19.846 --> 01:18:22.168
when you take a break and

01:18:22.188 --> 01:18:23.228
you basically just like

01:18:23.308 --> 01:18:24.209
after a couple of days,

01:18:24.249 --> 01:18:25.450
you just kind of collapse.

01:18:25.470 --> 01:18:26.370
Like it all just hits you

01:18:26.410 --> 01:18:27.491
like a fucking brick.

01:18:28.595 --> 01:18:31.638
You know, and you just like, like,

01:18:31.738 --> 01:18:32.399
you know, when you,

01:18:32.539 --> 01:18:33.720
you realize how exhausted

01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:34.881
you are and you're so exhausted,

01:18:34.921 --> 01:18:35.842
you're like gritting your

01:18:35.882 --> 01:18:37.364
teeth at how tired you are.

01:18:37.604 --> 01:18:37.884
You're like,

01:18:38.785 --> 01:18:39.986
you wake up one morning and you're like,

01:18:40.487 --> 01:18:40.787
fuck.

01:18:41.948 --> 01:18:42.709
That was it, man.

01:18:42.869 --> 01:18:43.750
I couldn't get out of bed.

01:18:43.810 --> 01:18:44.751
I was like, how have I,

01:18:44.851 --> 01:18:46.213
how have I kept going for

01:18:46.233 --> 01:18:48.555
like a year and a half at

01:18:48.595 --> 01:18:49.796
this level of exhaustion?

01:18:49.996 --> 01:18:50.577
Like it was mad.

01:18:52.062 --> 01:18:52.262
Yeah,

01:18:52.302 --> 01:18:53.723
I think lately I've been muddling

01:18:53.783 --> 01:18:55.464
through quite a long string

01:18:55.504 --> 01:18:59.466
of interrupted sleep.

01:18:59.486 --> 01:19:02.668
So that's probably a thing

01:19:02.708 --> 01:19:05.389
that I could fix with some

01:19:05.429 --> 01:19:06.110
maintenance modes.

01:19:06.730 --> 01:19:07.971
Upgrades are a bit of a pain

01:19:08.231 --> 01:19:09.292
being in the middle of the night,

01:19:09.732 --> 01:19:14.354
but they almost invariably succeed.

01:19:14.575 --> 01:19:16.756
So I think that...

01:19:18.408 --> 01:19:20.389
I may start actually putting

01:19:21.029 --> 01:19:22.189
networks in maintenance

01:19:22.249 --> 01:19:24.530
mode half an hour before

01:19:24.670 --> 01:19:25.750
and an hour after the

01:19:25.790 --> 01:19:27.751
planned upgrade so that I'm

01:19:27.791 --> 01:19:29.711
only alerted if the thing

01:19:29.751 --> 01:19:31.112
is still stalled after an hour.

01:19:31.132 --> 01:19:31.472
Yeah.

01:19:32.592 --> 01:19:32.872
I mean,

01:19:32.992 --> 01:19:34.533
the other thing is you can look at

01:19:34.573 --> 01:19:35.573
the... I hate to say it,

01:19:35.653 --> 01:19:36.913
but depending on the chain,

01:19:37.113 --> 01:19:38.374
you can look at how long

01:19:38.454 --> 01:19:40.654
the slashing window is and

01:19:40.774 --> 01:19:42.315
set your alerts accordingly.

01:19:42.395 --> 01:19:45.476
So we have some alerts for Cosmos chains,

01:19:45.556 --> 01:19:46.016
which is...

01:19:48.470 --> 01:19:49.670
there's like a if it's

01:19:49.710 --> 01:19:52.271
during sort of rough when

01:19:52.291 --> 01:19:53.031
you could reasonably be

01:19:53.091 --> 01:19:54.892
awake in europe hours it

01:19:54.932 --> 01:19:56.132
will alert immediately

01:19:56.512 --> 01:19:58.392
highest alert fucking

01:19:58.472 --> 01:20:01.773
screaming but like between

01:20:01.793 --> 01:20:03.614
like two in the morning and

01:20:03.834 --> 01:20:06.474
five in the morning it has

01:20:06.514 --> 01:20:09.035
to be bad before the alert

01:20:09.055 --> 01:20:12.996
will escalate to waking people up because

01:20:15.276 --> 01:20:16.979
Other people with a small child will know.

01:20:17.440 --> 01:20:18.522
Once you wake them up,

01:20:19.604 --> 01:20:20.326
there's a whole bunch of

01:20:20.366 --> 01:20:21.167
reasons why you don't want

01:20:21.207 --> 01:20:23.151
a phone going off at like

01:20:23.752 --> 01:20:25.153
The worst time is probably

01:20:25.353 --> 01:20:26.554
four in the morning because

01:20:26.714 --> 01:20:27.635
everybody is in the middle

01:20:27.655 --> 01:20:28.656
of a sleep cycle.

01:20:29.096 --> 01:20:30.016
And there's a good chance

01:20:30.056 --> 01:20:31.077
that you won't get back to

01:20:31.117 --> 01:20:33.079
sleep if you get woken up at that point.

01:20:33.939 --> 01:20:34.820
Yeah,

01:20:35.300 --> 01:20:37.422
between two and five is a really bad

01:20:37.442 --> 01:20:38.983
time to be woken up, like you say,

01:20:39.003 --> 01:20:40.404
because it's just the

01:20:40.424 --> 01:20:41.425
chances of going back to

01:20:41.465 --> 01:20:42.405
sleep are pretty slim.

01:20:42.966 --> 01:20:43.966
And unfortunately for me,

01:20:44.046 --> 01:20:44.887
most things happen at 3 a.m.

01:20:47.969 --> 01:20:48.869
I mean,

01:20:48.929 --> 01:20:50.809
it's okay if you get to bed pretty early,

01:20:50.849 --> 01:20:53.110
but if you are working on

01:20:53.150 --> 01:20:53.890
some things the night

01:20:53.911 --> 01:20:56.471
before and then maybe you

01:20:56.511 --> 01:20:57.552
forgot about an upgrade and

01:20:57.572 --> 01:20:58.492
then you get the fucking

01:20:58.532 --> 01:21:00.233
PagerDuty alert that...

01:21:00.793 --> 01:21:01.933
Because what comes through

01:21:01.953 --> 01:21:02.893
on my monitoring is

01:21:02.933 --> 01:21:04.974
specifically my monitoring

01:21:05.014 --> 01:21:07.035
will misunderstand an

01:21:07.095 --> 01:21:08.935
upgrade for a stall because

01:21:09.015 --> 01:21:10.356
the network hasn't advanced

01:21:10.396 --> 01:21:11.536
in a certain timeframe.

01:21:11.556 --> 01:21:11.596
So...

01:21:16.062 --> 01:21:20.306
and also potentially the RPC

01:21:20.326 --> 01:21:21.488
will become unavailable.

01:21:21.548 --> 01:21:22.148
So I get a bunch of

01:21:22.188 --> 01:21:24.511
different associated alerts

01:21:24.591 --> 01:21:25.932
with the network being

01:21:25.992 --> 01:21:30.897
stalled or upgrading, which, like you say,

01:21:31.257 --> 01:21:33.440
should be able, like if it's,

01:21:36.798 --> 01:21:37.479
If it's a network,

01:21:37.519 --> 01:21:38.219
you don't have a lot of

01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:40.101
voting power on like, you know,

01:21:40.181 --> 01:21:41.902
outside of the top 10 or something.

01:21:41.922 --> 01:21:43.644
I don't see a problem with

01:21:43.704 --> 01:21:46.366
like actually upgrading

01:21:46.406 --> 01:21:49.288
later if it didn't work properly.

01:21:49.909 --> 01:21:52.391
But for networks where we have, you know,

01:21:52.451 --> 01:21:53.832
a higher amount of voting power,

01:21:53.892 --> 01:21:55.774
like say network or something like that,

01:21:57.015 --> 01:21:57.975
then I think it's pretty

01:21:58.016 --> 01:21:59.857
important to get the alerts

01:21:59.917 --> 01:22:01.819
straight away if something's going wrong.

01:22:03.100 --> 01:22:04.481
Just in case like other

01:22:04.522 --> 01:22:06.603
people are taking on that same philosophy,

01:22:06.623 --> 01:22:07.805
you sort of want to be able

01:22:07.825 --> 01:22:10.347
to at least attain

01:22:10.407 --> 01:22:13.049
consensus for the network.

01:22:13.450 --> 01:22:15.331
So you have a responsibility

01:22:15.372 --> 01:22:17.914
in that respect to be

01:22:18.074 --> 01:22:19.716
present regardless of

01:22:19.776 --> 01:22:20.436
whether or not you're going

01:22:20.456 --> 01:22:22.338
to get slashed, I think.

01:22:23.973 --> 01:22:24.213
Yeah.

01:22:24.233 --> 01:22:25.594
I think this is also like, we've,

01:22:26.054 --> 01:22:28.576
I've started looking at our, you know, we,

01:22:28.616 --> 01:22:29.456
we obviously run fewer

01:22:29.496 --> 01:22:31.397
chains than we used to anyway, but like,

01:22:31.437 --> 01:22:35.059
we, we, we're going to wind down Mars, um,

01:22:35.079 --> 01:22:35.600
uh, next month.

01:22:36.060 --> 01:22:36.740
Hey, yo.

01:22:37.241 --> 01:22:37.801
Hey, yo.

01:22:38.461 --> 01:22:40.583
But it's also like, cause, cause honestly,

01:22:40.623 --> 01:22:42.544
like I, uh, I sat there, you know, we, we,

01:22:42.584 --> 01:22:43.204
we were talking about this

01:22:43.224 --> 01:22:44.685
on the podcast a couple of weeks ago,

01:22:44.705 --> 01:22:46.266
cause you obviously, uh,

01:22:46.326 --> 01:22:48.007
wound down and we were

01:22:48.027 --> 01:22:49.027
talking about this after, um,

01:22:51.182 --> 01:22:52.583
after we finished recording the podcast,

01:22:52.603 --> 01:22:53.443
we were just having a chat.

01:22:54.203 --> 01:22:56.064
And I can't remember if it

01:22:56.104 --> 01:22:58.005
was you or Serp said something.

01:22:58.505 --> 01:23:00.045
And I kind of realized that, like,

01:23:00.065 --> 01:23:02.646
obviously, I don't really have a choice.

01:23:02.666 --> 01:23:04.347
Like, if PagerDuty goes off, it goes off.

01:23:05.467 --> 01:23:07.108
But if I did have the choice

01:23:07.408 --> 01:23:09.409
and Mars got me up at 4 a.m.,

01:23:09.909 --> 01:23:12.590
I would rather just not know about it.

01:23:14.815 --> 01:23:16.636
Like I had this, I had this strong,

01:23:17.056 --> 01:23:18.137
overwhelming feeling where

01:23:18.157 --> 01:23:20.178
I was just like, number one,

01:23:20.479 --> 01:23:23.120
slashing window, no worries.

01:23:23.621 --> 01:23:25.862
Number two, we've never made a cent on it.

01:23:26.402 --> 01:23:27.003
Number three,

01:23:27.183 --> 01:23:28.684
we're not going to make any money on it.

01:23:29.284 --> 01:23:30.145
Very unlikely.

01:23:30.165 --> 01:23:32.386
And I was just like, well, hang on.

01:23:32.506 --> 01:23:35.188
If that's my gut feeling on

01:23:35.668 --> 01:23:36.909
ranking the importance of

01:23:36.949 --> 01:23:38.210
this in our business model.

01:23:39.583 --> 01:23:41.144
why why why am I even

01:23:41.204 --> 01:23:42.465
running the risk of being

01:23:42.505 --> 01:23:44.165
woken up at 4 a.m for that

01:23:44.886 --> 01:23:46.247
when I still have

01:23:46.307 --> 01:23:48.728
confidence in stargaze uh

01:23:48.788 --> 01:23:49.708
you know we have other

01:23:49.788 --> 01:23:51.549
chains like like aptos that

01:23:51.729 --> 01:23:52.590
and you know other things

01:23:52.630 --> 01:23:53.250
that we're looking at

01:23:53.270 --> 01:23:54.991
getting into as well which

01:23:55.011 --> 01:23:56.312
we do have confidence in

01:23:56.772 --> 01:23:58.133
and are important enough to

01:23:58.173 --> 01:23:59.153
wake us up at four in the

01:23:59.193 --> 01:24:00.594
morning and have woken us

01:24:00.654 --> 01:24:01.614
up at four in the morning

01:24:01.654 --> 01:24:03.735
and you go yep okay that's

01:24:03.775 --> 01:24:04.636
a reasonable reason to be

01:24:04.676 --> 01:24:05.696
woken up at four in the

01:24:05.736 --> 01:24:06.697
morning you know I mean like

01:24:07.562 --> 01:24:08.463
there's two types of pager

01:24:08.503 --> 01:24:09.664
duty notification right

01:24:10.024 --> 01:24:10.845
there's the one where you

01:24:10.865 --> 01:24:12.607
see it you're like I can't

01:24:12.647 --> 01:24:13.447
believe I'm getting up for

01:24:13.487 --> 01:24:14.288
this and there's the one

01:24:14.568 --> 01:24:16.410
where you go oh shit right

01:24:16.950 --> 01:24:19.112
and my theory of pager duty

01:24:19.152 --> 01:24:20.813
now having taken two weeks

01:24:20.874 --> 01:24:21.814
off over christmas and

01:24:21.854 --> 01:24:23.195
having a new perspective on

01:24:23.255 --> 01:24:24.977
shit is that you shouldn't

01:24:25.077 --> 01:24:27.059
be running fucking networks

01:24:27.159 --> 01:24:29.601
where your reaction isn't oh shit and

01:24:30.868 --> 01:24:31.028
Like,

01:24:31.048 --> 01:24:32.250
if you don't have that level of

01:24:32.370 --> 01:24:34.833
either interest or, like, investment or,

01:24:34.874 --> 01:24:41.543
like, simply, like, business reason,

01:24:41.723 --> 01:24:43.946
right, to give a shit about that network,

01:24:44.246 --> 01:24:44.427
then...

01:24:46.115 --> 01:24:47.515
why are you letting it wake you up?

01:24:47.836 --> 01:24:49.536
Like with test nets maybe is

01:24:49.576 --> 01:24:51.056
the only sort of edge case in that.

01:24:51.096 --> 01:24:51.697
Cause sometimes you have to

01:24:51.757 --> 01:24:53.477
run test nets and then they

01:24:53.497 --> 01:24:54.377
just fucking halt.

01:24:54.437 --> 01:24:56.478
But then, I mean, half the time,

01:24:56.518 --> 01:24:59.479
if it's not, if it's not like a test net,

01:24:59.499 --> 01:25:00.599
which is like compulsory

01:25:00.639 --> 01:25:03.540
with some like negative consequence, um,

01:25:04.426 --> 01:25:04.666
Again,

01:25:04.686 --> 01:25:06.409
I don't even put it into the monitoring.

01:25:06.469 --> 01:25:07.330
I think the only one that

01:25:07.370 --> 01:25:08.571
was in monitoring for us

01:25:09.012 --> 01:25:10.854
consistently was Juno's

01:25:10.894 --> 01:25:12.015
testnet when we ran it.

01:25:13.237 --> 01:25:13.998
Then we had to know.

01:25:14.018 --> 01:25:16.681
But apart from that... Well,

01:25:16.701 --> 01:25:18.023
I will monitor anything

01:25:18.083 --> 01:25:20.906
that is in development and...

01:25:22.688 --> 01:25:23.930
you know important sorry I

01:25:23.950 --> 01:25:25.051
meant in alerting not in

01:25:25.071 --> 01:25:26.433
monitoring everything goes

01:25:26.453 --> 01:25:28.116
into monitoring but um yeah

01:25:28.136 --> 01:25:31.360
yeah but yeah so like I was

01:25:31.580 --> 01:25:32.902
sort of saying to serp

01:25:33.002 --> 01:25:34.264
earlier I think we're gonna

01:25:34.324 --> 01:25:36.627
break our networks into two

01:25:36.727 --> 01:25:38.309
categories and

01:25:40.112 --> 01:25:41.734
one category being alert no

01:25:41.754 --> 01:25:43.235
matter what and the other

01:25:43.255 --> 01:25:44.657
category being alert in

01:25:44.757 --> 01:25:46.139
business hours basically or

01:25:46.199 --> 01:25:47.740
from like you know nine to

01:25:48.001 --> 01:25:48.842
so if there's an alert that

01:25:48.882 --> 01:25:49.923
happens overnight it'll

01:25:49.943 --> 01:25:52.125
just wait until 7 a.m or

01:25:52.145 --> 01:25:53.527
something before it comes through yeah

01:25:54.768 --> 01:25:56.630
And I think that can make a

01:25:56.670 --> 01:25:57.732
lot of sense for things

01:25:58.492 --> 01:25:59.754
like long-running testnets

01:25:59.774 --> 01:26:00.394
you don't need to know

01:26:00.414 --> 01:26:03.077
about if something happens with those,

01:26:03.197 --> 01:26:04.359
like it just gets fixed

01:26:04.379 --> 01:26:05.139
when it gets fixed.

01:26:06.301 --> 01:26:07.382
Low-power networks,

01:26:07.762 --> 01:26:10.045
which you don't contribute

01:26:10.105 --> 01:26:11.426
greatly to actually being

01:26:11.506 --> 01:26:12.868
able to achieve consensus

01:26:12.928 --> 01:26:13.688
if something goes wrong.

01:26:14.689 --> 01:26:17.810
And that have a long enough

01:26:17.870 --> 01:26:21.271
window to allow you to not

01:26:21.331 --> 01:26:22.312
respond immediately.

01:26:22.992 --> 01:26:23.912
And then obviously the

01:26:23.972 --> 01:26:25.413
networks where we have high

01:26:25.433 --> 01:26:28.274
vote power or like test

01:26:28.314 --> 01:26:29.914
nets in development would

01:26:29.974 --> 01:26:32.575
get the highest priority alerts.

01:26:33.275 --> 01:26:34.176
And the test next in

01:26:34.216 --> 01:26:35.778
development one is a bit of

01:26:35.798 --> 01:26:38.581
a pain in terms of sleep

01:26:38.721 --> 01:26:39.502
because a lot of them are

01:26:39.522 --> 01:26:41.605
in the US and you do need

01:26:41.625 --> 01:26:42.506
to respond to them pretty

01:26:42.566 --> 01:26:43.587
quick most of the time,

01:26:43.687 --> 01:26:45.329
especially things like bear chain whip.

01:26:46.696 --> 01:26:48.437
you know, where you,

01:26:48.737 --> 01:26:51.639
there might be some sort of, uh, I mean,

01:26:51.659 --> 01:26:52.739
but you also like, you know,

01:26:52.759 --> 01:26:53.440
you still have other

01:26:53.480 --> 01:26:54.920
commitments that are like

01:26:55.061 --> 01:26:56.461
outside of blockchain as

01:26:56.541 --> 01:26:57.522
well as like obviously

01:26:57.822 --> 01:26:59.683
day-to-day work that needs to be done.

01:27:00.463 --> 01:27:01.864
So like, I mean,

01:27:01.884 --> 01:27:03.805
I think there's even an argument for like,

01:27:04.426 --> 01:27:05.866
like having blocks in the

01:27:05.926 --> 01:27:08.108
working day of those lower

01:27:08.148 --> 01:27:09.488
priority chains where like,

01:27:09.528 --> 01:27:11.049
let's say between 10 and 12

01:27:11.049 --> 01:27:12.810
in the morning and like two

01:27:12.870 --> 01:27:14.131
and four in the afternoon, uh,

01:27:14.918 --> 01:27:15.859
it wouldn't alert you

01:27:16.460 --> 01:27:18.982
because otherwise how, like, I mean,

01:27:19.002 --> 01:27:21.284
maybe this is just my like realization,

01:27:21.344 --> 01:27:22.746
but like, I, like,

01:27:22.806 --> 01:27:23.967
I find that when I switch

01:27:24.247 --> 01:27:25.388
from one task to another,

01:27:25.468 --> 01:27:29.492
like I pay like a half an hour tax,

01:27:29.913 --> 01:27:30.213
right?

01:27:30.253 --> 01:27:30.513
Yeah.

01:27:30.613 --> 01:27:31.154
I understand.

01:27:31.654 --> 01:27:32.775
So like,

01:27:33.256 --> 01:27:34.597
like one of the biggest things

01:27:34.717 --> 01:27:36.079
I've found with, especially us,

01:27:36.159 --> 01:27:38.101
we've kind of really heavily reduced our,

01:27:38.361 --> 01:27:39.082
our test net.

01:27:39.670 --> 01:27:40.871
You know, that was really last year,

01:27:40.951 --> 01:27:41.151
right?

01:27:41.872 --> 01:27:43.093
When the baby arrived, it was just like,

01:27:43.274 --> 01:27:44.575
we don't test nets anymore.

01:27:45.095 --> 01:27:46.397
And what I noticed was that

01:27:46.437 --> 01:27:47.578
during the working day,

01:27:48.018 --> 01:27:49.640
like it had a big impact on

01:27:49.660 --> 01:27:50.861
being able to get shit done

01:27:50.901 --> 01:27:51.802
during the working day

01:27:51.822 --> 01:27:52.302
because there wasn't

01:27:52.442 --> 01:27:53.604
another layer of random

01:27:53.624 --> 01:27:56.106
stuff interrupting you, you know?

01:27:56.778 --> 01:27:57.058
Yeah.

01:27:58.160 --> 01:28:00.322
So I think, well, for me,

01:28:00.442 --> 01:28:02.564
I usually have a window in

01:28:02.604 --> 01:28:03.705
the morning and a window at

01:28:03.765 --> 01:28:06.348
night where I absolutely do

01:28:06.628 --> 01:28:07.549
only blockchain stuff.

01:28:08.650 --> 01:28:09.591
And then, you know,

01:28:09.611 --> 01:28:10.232
it depends on what I'm

01:28:10.252 --> 01:28:12.835
doing during the day, but there might be.

01:28:14.005 --> 01:28:15.106
I might be working on it all day.

01:28:15.146 --> 01:28:17.447
I might sort of have to do

01:28:17.527 --> 01:28:19.448
other stuff like maybe some

01:28:19.548 --> 01:28:20.289
construction or something

01:28:20.309 --> 01:28:21.329
in the middle of the day on

01:28:21.349 --> 01:28:22.570
my house or whatever.

01:28:23.911 --> 01:28:24.691
But it makes sense in the

01:28:24.731 --> 01:28:25.491
morning and afternoons

01:28:25.511 --> 01:28:26.452
because that's closer to

01:28:26.492 --> 01:28:27.973
when like the US and UK and

01:28:28.053 --> 01:28:29.374
Europe are sort of online as well.

01:28:30.454 --> 01:28:33.416
um but you know that works

01:28:33.456 --> 01:28:34.917
for me like usually I

01:28:35.197 --> 01:28:36.558
collect a lot of

01:28:36.618 --> 01:28:37.718
information in the morning

01:28:37.958 --> 01:28:39.539
as soon as I wake up I get

01:28:39.599 --> 01:28:41.000
on to you know discord and

01:28:41.781 --> 01:28:43.902
um slack and bloody tg and

01:28:43.922 --> 01:28:45.002
all that type of stuff and

01:28:45.223 --> 01:28:46.463
collect all of the

01:28:46.763 --> 01:28:47.964
basically an action list

01:28:48.004 --> 01:28:49.545
for the morning and then

01:28:50.145 --> 01:28:51.146
action those things and

01:28:51.186 --> 01:28:53.687
then move on to other stuff

01:28:53.727 --> 01:28:54.868
if I need to or I might

01:28:54.948 --> 01:28:56.249
start doing some maintenance and

01:28:57.149 --> 01:28:58.831
you know looking at ansible

01:28:59.051 --> 01:29:01.432
or building some scripts to

01:29:01.492 --> 01:29:02.533
do certain things or

01:29:02.593 --> 01:29:04.274
improving you know whatever

01:29:05.115 --> 01:29:06.156
um if I've got nothing else

01:29:06.236 --> 01:29:08.037
on in the day but uh but

01:29:08.057 --> 01:29:08.998
then in the afternoon too

01:29:09.018 --> 01:29:09.798
like a lot of people come

01:29:09.838 --> 01:29:11.159
in late afternoon for me

01:29:11.219 --> 01:29:12.801
and start banging their

01:29:12.821 --> 01:29:13.901
drum about stuff so

01:29:14.122 --> 01:29:15.222
sometimes I have things to

01:29:15.242 --> 01:29:17.684
do there as well uh I'm

01:29:17.724 --> 01:29:18.545
just kind of like

01:29:19.505 --> 01:29:21.107
astonished that you have the energy to

01:29:24.166 --> 01:29:26.428
Even think about day-to-day

01:29:26.468 --> 01:29:27.549
maintenance tasks when

01:29:27.569 --> 01:29:29.450
you've got stuff outside of

01:29:29.490 --> 01:29:30.651
this and all of that to do

01:29:30.711 --> 01:29:31.492
on your to-do list.

01:29:32.873 --> 01:29:33.934
Shit's got to get done, man.