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And the Validator Commons meeting used to be right now anyway, right?

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So it's not like he's being super indisposed.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent Validator teams.

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Hello, welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast where we work out

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whether we've been rugged by our guests.

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This week we are waiting for Dan, who's been on the show

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before in a previous, in a previous guy's in a previous life,

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is currently heading up Validator ops for Alio,

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place bets now, whether or not we get rugged.

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Alio or Aleo?

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Do we just say?

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I say no.

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We're not getting rugged.

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Dan's always like, he's very, you know...

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He's kind of an organised man.

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He holds his reputation in high regard.

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Yeah, he'll show up.

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I thought Aleo...

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I think...

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I think Aleo.

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Aleo?

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Aleo, yeah.

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Fucking every time.

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Wait, how do you say that?

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But Aleo is quite good.

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Like, that's a funny phrase.

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So maybe we should just rhyme with Aleo.

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Aleo.

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Aleo.

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Aleo.

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It works again.

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I have to stop calling their networks obscure shit or like start,

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you know, having the, you know, enunciation little brackets underneath it.

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All the good things have been taken though.

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Now people have...

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We've got out of the phase where people could even go for famous science fiction,

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famous classics, famous theological references.

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You know, they've already worked their way through all the beaches in California or whatever.

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I mean, there's...

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What else is there, right?

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There's...

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We're onto like the fucking Zed tier.

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We're like, we're not even at rubbish Robert Henline anymore.

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We've got no names left that we can use.

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We haven't even hit like Alpha, Beta, Gamma.

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Like we're not even at the Greek characters yet.

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Come on, get out of here.

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There's so much left.

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It's a good time.

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Let's call your chain.

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Just start naming chains after like hurricanes.

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All right. So this is the Katrina chain.

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You know what bullshit?

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Actually, I'm calling bullshit on that.

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There's almost certainly an alpha chain and I'm going to go and Google it.

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There has to be.

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Probably is an alpha chain.

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There has to be.

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So shit has been like kicking off in the last couple of weeks.

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I know last hour that with the dump, the 10% dump.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think brush that shit off.

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They're like, we go up 10%.

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Last out last hour is coming back though.

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Things are clawing back since gaming notes.

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What was the what was the catalyst for that?

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Did they not approve the fucking ETF again?

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Well, the only thing I saw was some some bullshit reporting outlets said that

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there was 100% chance of it being rejected.

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And then that same reporting outlet also had articles this last month about how

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it was going to be 100% approved and and how Bitcoin was going to hit $50,000 or

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something like that.

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So it just seemed like a bunch of bullshit.

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Honestly, what least what I saw was being reported and nobody knows.

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The S&P 500 went down like 1% as well today.

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So I would honestly, I'm simple.

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If it dumps, it's probably just because it traced S&P.

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Could be.

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Yeah.

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I mean, a lot of things are dumped.

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I mean, I think stuff that we watch Aptos and then Dydx is down 10, 12%.

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You know, Cosmos is down nine.

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So I don't know.

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It was it was pretty ugly there for a little bit, but things are starting to

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claw back a little bit today.

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That is the last couple of hours.

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Say is up 91% in the last seven days.

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They are just about to cross the two Billy market cap.

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What do you think that is that?

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What's driving that?

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Do you know?

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It's not that it's it.

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I did just buy an FT on say like two days ago.

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Something off say me.

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I don't know where I bought it.

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I should see if I can find it.

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One really good say doubles the was I do double the usage.

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They active users.

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That's not nice.

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Might be really not sure.

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I think it's the narrative around the around the V2 and marketing and

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market makers and the actual it seems like they are starting to get some

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users in there too.

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I don't know what they're what they're doing to get them.

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It seems like that is not like in my Twitter.

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It's more the validated shit.

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So I don't really see much.

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What they're doing.

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It seems pretty stagnant until the inscriptions happened.

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And I think that say doing really well on inscriptions kind of brought a

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little bit of attention to it because say was one of the better networks that I

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experienced doing it near was the best.

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They basically let me be clear.

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Whatever.

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No, I was going to talk up near the up to I can and then say it great as well.

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Except the price.

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That always sucks.

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Yeah.

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I never really had that much problem with the price feeder, but definitely

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like the network crushed it in terms of throughput.

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I am having now a lot of problems with some of my nodes, but that's probably

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a null thing.

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No, today, today I had like I had huge issues in the EU.

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I had a restake thinking like three out of four nodes this afternoon.

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They're all they're all lagging back and then I started dumping things.

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And also this upgrade actually made a huge difference.

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And the upgrade was really weird.

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I had like the traffic that I see at RPC is totally different post upgrade.

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So I don't know what change.

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Yeah.

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It's like it's before we had a lot of like very, uh, like very consistent

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jumps in traffic between like 500 to 1200 requests a second.

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And for some reason now it totally flattened out.

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So I don't know what the post upgrade, but it's really weird to see different

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traffic pattern.

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Oh, look, I, it's gotten a, I just got an alert for a, for a say Western EU issue

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right now.

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How exciting.

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So I, my archive currently in the process of moving my archive, but it's

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performance has not been great in the last couple of days.

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It reset like four times overnight.

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So I needed to do a bit of investigation on it in the morning.

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Currently 7,500 blocks in the lag, which is a pain.

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And so yeah, but not a hundred percent sure what that is.

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I'm hoping that the upgrade sort of fixes it.

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So this is, this isn't your, this isn't your archive.

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That's, you know, physical tin in a data center.

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No, this is the one which is very soon going to be moved to the physical tin.

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I, uh, I nuked my tin.

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I, uh, I'm new to, um, micro tick routers and, uh, I made a configuration

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change on a page that I shouldn't have done it on.

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So I have since found out that micro tick routers have this quick

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microtech page.

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Microtech.

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Yeah.

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Whatever.

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Yeah.

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I agree.

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I need some micro tech.

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You're like, you're like that chef that said, micro of a, instead of

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microwave.

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Wow.

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I like to put emphasis on the wrong syllable.

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Huh?

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Anyway, what was I saying?

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Oh yeah.

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So there's this, the, the, the person who built my server, right?

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They set the fucking IPMI or the management port as a static address.

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And when we pre-configured the, um, micro tick router, uh, we had it all

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to take DHCP, um, and then assign it to certain things on the public address.

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Right.

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And so it was expected that it would be DHCP because they didn't ask me for a,

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you know, network schema configuration.

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They just like set it to this random fucking.

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Anyway, so I had to go in there and add some addresses, uh, to the router to

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get it to talk to that local address.

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And when I was adding them, um, there's a quick set page.

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And I thought that when you add stuff in the quick set page, it just

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adds that thing to the configuration, not completely nukes everything and adds that thing.

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So I just completely nuked my access to that router.

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So I'm flying back to Melbourne tomorrow to fix that.

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You have remote hands or can you have somebody help with that?

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Yeah, yeah, but I'd just rather do it myself because I anticipate that I'm

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going to have other issues as well.

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I don't really want to be like back and forthing with remote hands.

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So wait, how much is it going to cost you to fly back to Melbourne?

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A couple hundred bucks.

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Some kangabugs.

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Yeah, it's pretty cheap.

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There's a flight that goes right from where I am to Melbourne direct.

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So, um, yeah, it's, it's pretty cheap.

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It costs more in the Uber to go from where I live down there to the

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data center than what it cost to fly from here to fucking Melbourne.

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Well, I mean, like it's, I feel like we've already tried to have an intervention,

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but you just really want to be there.

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You want to be there in your parents' basement, cutting.

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Well, they don't live in, what are you talking about?

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So my partner lives in Melbourne.

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No, no, I'm not talking about living, I took a little problem with Melbourne.

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That was a nice place.

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I mean, I mean physical 10.

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You kind of just self-harming.

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We're just kind of having to watch it.

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There becomes a point.

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There's a, there's like, if you, you can graph the, the scale of like economy.

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And there becomes a point in Australia where it's just better to get hosed.

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With hosting and internet fees than what it is to rent metal with enormous hard

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drives.

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So that, like we've got, we've got a lot of space on this new machine.

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And to rent that type of space, I'd just be getting hosed like every month.

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I would never be able to recover the cost.

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So.

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I just, like, I don't know, there's got to be an easier way to, like, I know we

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will run infrastructure companies, but like the, the, the goal of any scalability

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question, right, is to find out the minimum amount of time of hours plus money to,

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you know, like it feels like any situation, like, I know it's an interesting,

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like it feels like, it feels like you're just playing on hard mode for just

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because you're stubborn, like, like, I can't prove it because it's really hard

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to prove, but, but it's just like an intuition that we're in the Jurassic Park

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looking glass here where, where just, it's like, just because you, you, you could,

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you know, just because you're signed to your infrastructure engineers could

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didn't, didn't, didn't mean they should.

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Look, man, we're blasting through the, the learning curve here.

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Right.

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I want to run metal for certain things and I want to run out of Australia.

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It's just that I cannot fucking rent anything in Australia because there's so

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uneconomical.

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It's not funny.

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Like the, the absolutely fucking ridiculous costs they ask you to rent

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something is just outrageous.

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It's worse than bloody soul.

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Oh, I was surprised by how expensive it is to rent hardware in Asia Pacific,

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just in general.

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Like the fact that generally the internet though, the internet costs,

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they're insane compared to the sense to me, right?

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Because like my uncle lives in Japan and Hokkaido, like, in the US,

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in the middle of nowhere, Japan, very North.

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And he has had gigabit internet for like $3 a month, like the last decade.

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So why are we paying so much?

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Well, it's, it's not that it's, it's not that it's not available.

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It's just that the congestion, like when we're talking about these data

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centers, they're like in Tokyo or in Sapporo or whatever.

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And the congestion in those areas, like it's really expensive property and

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space and electricity to be able to put the shit.

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And then like, you can't just go and build new, like trunk mains of fiber.

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Like you have to use the existing.

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It's just, there's no way to put it in the ground.

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And so we're at a kind of more unstructured version of like an

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economics explained YouTube video now.

251
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,640
Cause I mean, you watch economics explained another fellow Aussie.

252
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:30,360
Yeah.

253
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,480
It's reasonable.

254
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:32,240
It's reasonable.

255
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,240
Right.

256
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:33,400
Yeah.

257
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,800
It's pretty good if you just like, you know, making some pasta

258
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,720
bakes or something, you know, batch cooking or something like that.

259
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,000
And you're just like, I kind of want something that makes me feel like

260
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,720
I'm learning something, but I also want it to be semi Larry.

261
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,280
Oh, an Australian doing economics podcasts.

262
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,600
Let's go.

263
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,760
So our best YouTube expert, our experts economics explained the

264
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,360
Batuta news and the Batuta news.

265
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,320
And the, um, we should, why did we name this?

266
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:04,720
That's, that's, that's up in our name.

267
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,960
And the honest government ads and they've started doing like other

268
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,040
countries now, like Europe and shit.

269
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:10,560
Absolutely.

270
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:11,760
Absolutely not.

271
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,920
Vati video is Australia's number one export for YouTube.

272
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,680
No, no, no, no.

273
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,440
Drain addicts.

274
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:19,640
Vati video.

275
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:21,960
They do like, they do like dad souls videos.

276
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,400
Drain addict is a great voice.

277
00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:26,280
Drain addict is Australia's number one YouTube export.

278
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,600
Back in the day, I would have said it was, um, uh, let's drown out maybe.

279
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,400
Cause that was like one of the OG let's plays.

280
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:39,000
And it was an Australian Gabe and then Yatsi from a zero punctuation,

281
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,160
just complaining about things while playing half life for like 55 hours.

282
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,080
It was absolutely classic.

283
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,920
If you just needed something on in the background while you were working.

284
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,360
And it was kind of, it was kind of like office noise cause it was just

285
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,680
two nerds complaining.

286
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:56,000
And so you're like, okay, I'm working from home.

287
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,840
This is kind of, this kind of checks out as like constant people complaining

288
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,680
about the different versions of half life and how they're stuck on a certain bit

289
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:04,040
or whatever.

290
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:04,680
That was pretty good.

291
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,520
Anyway, hi Daniel.

292
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:06,960
How's it going?

293
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:07,800
Good day, Dan.

294
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,160
I'm just listening to this.

295
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,800
It's interesting.

296
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,600
It's the, I don't know how we, I don't know how we sort of fell off.

297
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,200
Yeah.

298
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,640
Those commercials where they like saw people like dying on the train.

299
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,600
If they like, you step into it and it's like,

300
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,200
is that something completely different?

301
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:25,440
What?

302
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:30,520
There's like those commercials where it's like, if you don't obey the law,

303
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,080
then you're going to get hit by a train and die.

304
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,520
And it's like, it was like cute animation where they get sliced up like ham.

305
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:37,480
No.

306
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,320
I feel like that's Nord Australia.

307
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,800
Is that the Bosnian Ape Society YouTube where it's like, this is how you

308
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:49,360
defend your family, your family, your family sized car from an advanced

309
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,600
Russian style fighter.

310
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:51,400
I, I.

311
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,960
Maybe it's New Zealand.

312
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,480
It's all animated, but it's very surreal comedy.

313
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,680
I'll try to find it, but.

314
00:14:58,680 --> 00:14:59,440
Okay.

315
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,120
We're into the, we're into the Googling, Googling for YouTube links section of the podcast.

316
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,400
I actually do have a brief, but I know we do actually have news, obviously,

317
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,720
and all those sorts of things.

318
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:11,320
But.

319
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,400
Before we get to the news, go on with your thing and then I'll do my thing.

320
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:16,760
Okay.

321
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,280
For those of you based in the UK, it is totally tacky.

322
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,000
Okay. It is totally tax time.

323
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,320
As the ticker suggests, remember you got till the 31st of Jan to put all of your

324
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,160
degeneracy into a spreadsheet and give it to old uncle tax.

325
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,920
Otherwise, you, you're going to the big house.

326
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,920
So that's, that's the end of that one.

327
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,920
We've got a fun thing related to tax time.

328
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,000
It's fucking tax time at the start of the year.

329
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,080
That is inconvenient.

330
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,240
Not only is it the filing deadline, but the, the filing and payment deadline are,

331
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,520
well, okay, it's different for companies and people.

332
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,640
It's a little bit, but, but the deadline is kind of the same, right?

333
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,440
31st of Jan, you've got to have your filing done and you've got to make

334
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,360
either your full payment or your first payment, depending on whether you're a

335
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,360
company, an individual or somebody who pays the, the one way you have to pay a

336
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,400
little bit in advance, but then you pay less later.

337
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,120
You see everybody in the comments just started saying drink.

338
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:14,680
Is Dan talked?

339
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:15,480
Yeah.

340
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,200
No, because we started talking tax within the first 20

341
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:19,600
minutes.

342
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:29,800
Um, anyway, so on governance news, I just saw this morning and she'll see and

343
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,880
serve, you probably also saw this.

344
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,560
Did you see the D Y DX proposal?

345
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:36,680
I saw that you posted it.

346
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:37,920
So this is a.

347
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,960
Unjail some validators during the D Y DX emergency that happened on Thanksgiving.

348
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:44,520
I think it was.

349
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,160
It is not on jail.

350
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,800
It is even better than that.

351
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,960
It's exactly.

352
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,400
It's purely a reputational rewrite for no fucking reason other than reputation.

353
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:55,920
They were slash though, weren't they?

354
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:57,720
It doesn't say anything about the slash.

355
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:58,080
It's set.

356
00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,360
No, yeah.

357
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,720
They want to get rid of the record in the state because of marketing.

358
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,240
It says because it fucking competition.

359
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,400
Yeah, they accept the mistake and they accept the slash, but they want the

360
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,440
marketing info to be rewritten.

361
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,240
Ah, but there was no slash.

362
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,000
So if there was a slash, they probably pushed the point because then there's

363
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,160
actual consequences.

364
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,840
Now there's no consequences of the marketing.

365
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,360
So they want to get rid of that consequence because that's small.

366
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:24,840
Right.

367
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:26,960
So we just want to get this right.

368
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,720
The thing we do.

369
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,480
I mean, this kind of makes valid.

370
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,600
This is kind of what people already think validators are kind of like, but

371
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,960
these guys are like saying the quiet bit out loud.

372
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:43,160
So, um, Rama asked if I asked this from Kooji and I asked him,

373
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:48,320
if I asked this from Kooji and no, I didn't ask for it to be removed from the

374
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:48,920
state.

375
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:54,480
I asked for the fucking the, the website thing.

376
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,800
Wait, hang on a second.

377
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:56,880
Hang on a second.

378
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,120
Do we need to get out of the hypocrisy, Clarkson?

379
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,400
No, I firstly, I haven't told you my opinion yet on the dydx thing.

380
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:06,520
Secondly.

381
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:08,600
Yes.

382
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:15,360
Secondly, yes, I did ask them if they could time out the thing after a certain

383
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,120
amount of time.

384
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,000
So, you know, take your comeuppance for a year or six months or whatever,

385
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,440
and then have it disappear from the website, not from the blockchain state.

386
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,320
And the reason for that is, is because sure, you made a mistake, but, you know,

387
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,040
having that thing there, front and center on that website, guarantees you to

388
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,320
lose all of your delegations.

389
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:44,600
So the other option is, is just we unbond now and rip the bandaid off because

390
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,760
we've not been making money on that chain for now for a year and a half.

391
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:49,360
So.

392
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,080
What about air drops?

393
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:52,200
Have you claimed your airdrop?

394
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,560
Yeah, I'd say with air drops were probably just about break even.

395
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,640
If you don't count my time as anything.

396
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:00,640
I don't.

397
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:07,680
I don't because the, the, like the, just the, the price feeder alone on

398
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,640
Koogee is like expensive in terms of time.

399
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,160
Yeah, it is.

400
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,280
It's quite expensive.

401
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:13,920
Yeah.

402
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,800
But I mean, no one at all values validators time.

403
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:18,120
So.

404
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,080
I mean, not even validators, which is half the fucking problem, isn't it?

405
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,880
Like we're all just like doing the math of like, oh, well, does this make sense?

406
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:27,640
Does this make sense?

407
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,960
It's like, oh, this one's, you know, bringing your money in the servers are

408
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,560
costing less than what it's bringing in.

409
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:33,720
So that's all profit, right?

410
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:34,960
Yeah, it's, it's hilarious.

411
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,320
They're like, why am I so fucking tired all the time?

412
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,960
Why have I not slept at all week?

413
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:46,640
So, um, on the D.Y.D.X. thing though, I, there's a couple of aspects, right?

414
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:53,880
They didn't tell people at all, which is, I don't quite understand why they

415
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,840
didn't trust all of their validators enough to tell them.

416
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,000
Usually there's like a security group that you would give the upgrade to.

417
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,360
But in saying that,

418
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,360
just to clarify, you're talking about now the emergency upgrade for the

419
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:11,280
jailing, not for returning the proto rev funds, right?

420
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,160
So I'm about jailing.

421
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,760
So I'm still talking about the D.Y.D.X. jailing, right?

422
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:24,120
So the circumstances were for that upgrade is that they told a couple of people who

423
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,840
they believed to like be key for the chain to continue, right?

424
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:37,080
So obviously the big state guys and they told us, but I think it was because we

425
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,240
run infrastructure for them.

426
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,200
So they didn't want a break in the infrastructure, but it was not very

427
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,240
long ahead of time.

428
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,040
And then they didn't tell anybody.

429
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,760
The people that they told, do you know if they were just partners in like

430
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,040
institutional staking services companies or was it?

431
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,040
They were validators with a lot of staking.

432
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,360
It was out of stake, not whether or not they actually.

433
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,840
No, it was purely on will the chain keep running?

434
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:01,560
Right.

435
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,360
So it wasn't like, oh, this is Big Bulls venture backed staking.

436
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,400
No, it was more like, how can we tell the least amount of people possible and

437
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,880
share the new binary with the least amount of people possible?

438
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,840
So it wasn't about Jimmy Big Bulls and Jimmy Small Bulls.

439
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,320
No, it was about who could we tell, how could we tell the least amount of people

440
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,840
and distribute the binary to the least amount of people, but still have the

441
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,120
chain running is what I can gather.

442
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,000
So what you're saying is they decided to treat their trustless,

443
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,760
decentralized software like it was trustless, decentralized software running

444
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,600
in a low trust environment.

445
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,160
Yeah, I guess so.

446
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:45,840
It's I believe that the vulnerability was bad that they had.

447
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,240
So they had to like, it was security based, but in any case, I didn't tell.

448
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:52,360
Not exactly.

449
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,320
It was security based in the sense that I helped find the bug, right?

450
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,960
Which kind of is a little better in that they didn't help.

451
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,920
They didn't actually give us the binary, but we helped find whatever.

452
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,680
Anyway, wait, wait, wait, you helped find the bug and that they were like,

453
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,360
oh, you know what this is, but we're also not giving you the thing.

454
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,120
Yeah.

455
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:10,960
Yep.

456
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:12,080
Yeah.

457
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,840
So I was going to go big.

458
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,280
They didn't give you the FDI.

459
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:16,200
Yeah.

460
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,320
Say I literally ran across Manhattan.

461
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,920
No, no, it's because I was on a phone with them or yeah, we literally got into a

462
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,040
camera going out to dinner.

463
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,800
We're pulling into this place and this thing goes off and I was like, mother,

464
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,680
like I see his missing blocks and everything else.

465
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,720
I'm like, motherfucker.

466
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,120
And like, I could see it there.

467
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:40,080
And like, so I literally ran across like seven avenues to get back to the hotel

468
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:40,560
to run it.

469
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,320
Oh my God.

470
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:41,680
Okay.

471
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,640
But so it's like you smart as actual that I would take my laptop with me.

472
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:46,600
I brought it back with me.

473
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:47,440
I wasn't expecting that.

474
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,240
We're looking to be offered.

475
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,320
If I'm usually gone for a couple of hours, I usually don't do that, but just put a

476
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,920
toilet seat down to work with the toilet.

477
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:53,640
If I just.

478
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,960
SIRP was SIRP sent me this message.

479
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,440
It's like, what the fuck are all these alarms?

480
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,760
And I'm like, there's an upgrade and he's like, ah, what?

481
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:03,520
Just got in a taxi across time.

482
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,640
And I was like, you don't take your laptop with you everywhere.

483
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,680
No, I take my laptop.

484
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:09,840
That was only a couple of hours.

485
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:10,240
I was like, no.

486
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,800
That's what I want to do as well.

487
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,560
And for my mind went off really as we were serving Thanksgiving dinner.

488
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,920
So I was like, oh, shit, I'll be back in like, I don't know, half an hour guys.

489
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,280
And so people.

490
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:21,960
Yeah.

491
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,240
So they got through pretty quick.

492
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:23,800
It was bad, but.

493
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:24,800
Okay.

494
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,320
So they didn't tell anyone, right?

495
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,600
So that's like, that's fine.

496
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,480
They did it for whatever reason.

497
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,600
They didn't tell anyone.

498
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:37,040
They didn't tell anyone, but the jailings, like, I feel like they should have had

499
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:44,840
enough coverage and alerting to be able to fix it within three hours, regardless

500
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,120
of whether it's the middle of the night.

501
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:49,000
When alarm goes off, I wake up and I fucking go to work.

502
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,920
Like that's, you know, that's the validator way.

503
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,040
You don't sleep anymore.

504
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,240
So some of these people have teams, some of them don't.

505
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,800
But in any case, they should have adequate alerting that they're aware of

506
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,360
the issue and can get someone to fix it right away.

507
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,360
So, and particularly like, what is it?

508
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,080
What I think they're, they're a big, they're a pretty big outfit, right?

509
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:10,760
Yeah.

510
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,960
Who's, who's put the proposal up.

511
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,000
So if they got jailed, I would have expected they would have enough

512
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,040
coverage to be able to.

513
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:17,880
Yeah.

514
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,400
Take care of that when it happened.

515
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,360
I mean, I think the question there is more like about their own internal

516
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:24,400
process and whatever.

517
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:30,400
I mean, I know that we have a lot of our alerts.

518
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,200
And things are set up based on the slashing window or whatever network it is.

519
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,320
That's, that's the reality because I, we, we have very early days in the podcast,

520
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,560
we had Jack on here, didn't we?

521
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,160
We were talking about the slashing window.

522
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,320
And the idea is that in a crisis, if you need to break out and actually get

523
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,800
some fucking sleep, you can, right?

524
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,080
And that's kind of been our, our rule on that.

525
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,000
And there are some networks that are super forgiving of that.

526
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,880
There are some networks that not, but you should kind of plan your alerting

527
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,520
accordingly.

528
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,320
You know, there are, there are networks with no slashing window, but equally

529
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,000
you're losing money from the get go.

530
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,600
The page is going to go off straight away if we start missing blocks on

531
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,920
Aptos or something like that, where that is the case.

532
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,960
But it does beg the question of what the fuck auto stake we're doing with their

533
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,440
rotor.

534
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,760
I mean, I know it's a bear market.

535
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,920
Have they just canned off the, the expensive having people on call all the

536
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,040
time and every time soon is very expensive to do.

537
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:23,920
Yeah.

538
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,120
I mean, I don't mind last minute upgrades.

539
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:32,000
I kind of don't appreciate giving the VP heads up and then you have everybody

540
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,880
else underneath that, underneath that waterfall that's just fucked.

541
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,440
Like that to me doesn't, that doesn't really, doesn't seem like the best kind

542
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,600
of method for performing upgrades.

543
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,040
And there's ways to be able to communicate.

544
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,800
It's really in those types of things, but just to say, Hey, we have 67% and

545
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,960
whatever happens to the delegators on these other things.

546
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,000
I think it's just a, that's a, I think that's kind of poor.

547
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,040
Honestly.

548
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,440
Well, we have a, we have a guest here, right?

549
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,720
Who might have an opinion on this.

550
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,480
Like, is there a situation in which, you know, Dan, from your perspective, you're

551
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,440
like, well, no, the, the, the network becomes first as a priority, right?

552
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:11,760
So we're going to have to have a dig here.

553
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,640
So the network does come first at, at Dan land and they just block all the other validators.

554
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:19,840
That's true.

555
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,720
They're like, there's problems.

556
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,920
So bugger you people.

557
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,040
We're doing our own thing now.

558
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:25,840
Yeah.

559
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,680
Slap and climb both mode boys.

560
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,120
Cause you're not a validator anymore.

561
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:32,320
It's just a guy, this guy's.

562
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:34,320
Yeah.

563
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:40,560
I think maybe communication, if, if like, there's an agreement in place where the

564
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:46,400
type of communication is sort of understood by all parties.

565
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,760
It's that type of responsibility is something that people need to be ready for.

566
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:58,480
But yeah, I, I don't, I didn't take too deeply into what was going on in D Y DX, besides

567
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,280
like the sort of like the two big validators there.

568
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:07,440
But yeah, I, I, I was just kind of listening to how you guys were describing some of your

569
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:14,000
own sort of setups in terms of how you get alerted or if you have teammates in different

570
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,440
parts or different time zones.

571
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:22,720
But so all of us here would be in that very situation, everyone in this room would have

572
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,800
a setup to be alerted pretty soon.

573
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,600
Like we would all have stall warnings and we would all have missed warnings.

574
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,800
My miss warnings are tiered.

575
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:36,800
Like if we miss 5%, we'll get like an information in our, in our discord.

576
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,760
But once it goes up a little bit higher, you might get like an average warning.

577
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,120
And then that might be a ping with no noise on your phone.

578
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,200
And then if it goes to like, you know, another certain percent, it would be like a catastrophic

579
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,400
warning and you start getting phone calls and texts and all that type of crap to the on call.

580
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:01,920
So a crazy thing happened a while ago, which was that I got a new phone because I was this

581
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,960
one, I had my phone stolen or was this before that I got a new phone, set up page duty, set

582
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,480
it up to do the override thing.

583
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,000
You can see where this is going.

584
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,880
And then there was an incident and the phone didn't override, but it just happened to be on

585
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:17,360
vibrate.

586
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,880
And I used to be a super heavy sleeper.

587
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,280
You could have very stood on me and I would have just kept sleeping.

588
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,040
That has changed with small human.

589
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,840
And a bunch of people sent messages being like, yo, have people, have people noticed this has

590
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:32,400
happened or whatever.

591
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,600
And I think it was like signal or telegram, whatever, my phone buzzed so much on vibrate

592
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,200
downstairs, an entire floor away that it just like tripped my ear.

593
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,200
I just my ear was like, there's some kind of a buzzing.

594
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,000
Maybe it's a fire.

595
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,040
I don't know why evolutionary sense, but I just like kind of came to in the mid in like

596
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,600
three in the morning was like, I sense a small vibration that's worrying me.

597
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:54,400
So I get up.

598
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,440
I want to downstairs.

599
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,280
My phone's just like buzzing away with like notifications.

600
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,800
And also partly, I think it was one of our fallback alerts, which is a text message, which

601
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,680
is not as dramatic as pager duty, but it does just trigger my phone to buzz every 30 seconds.

602
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,320
And I was just like walking across the house towards this buzzing.

603
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,920
And I was like, I think it's the phone.

604
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,080
And I was like, oh, fuck, okay, we were 25 minutes late to this party.

605
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:23,360
But I was also like, holy shit, it only took 25 minutes for the buzzing level of a phone

606
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,160
to wake me up.

607
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:32,560
So this is a Rama sort of Rama sort of gets it here in that, you know,

608
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,600
it's a bit of a shock to hear in that he's making fun of alert PTSD, man.

609
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,960
I can tell you alert PTSD is fucking real.

610
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,640
So it's real.

611
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,720
And I feel physical pain when pager duty goes off.

612
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:54,320
That noise it makes will cut through the deepest sleep you could possibly be in and set you

613
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,600
into a state of alertness in less than half a second.

614
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,240
The funny thing is I heard it go off in the mall the other day.

615
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880
I'm not sure if someone had it as a message tone or something.

616
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:05,920
And I almost threw up.

617
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,720
No, you know, we were talking about how you were burnt out.

618
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,920
And you say break last episode or the one before you were talking about how I was burnt out.

619
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,800
I was talking about how I can work 25 hours a day.

620
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:19,920
Yeah.

621
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,520
And you're talking about how horrible you feel.

622
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,920
You're like, I can't talk guys.

623
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,280
And when my phone goes off on it.

624
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Yeah.

625
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:32,160
Yeah.

626
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,040
Incidentally, feeling great this week.

627
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,880
My bags bags are still there.

628
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,680
Still there.

629
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:37,920
Yeah.

630
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,840
Those are validator bags you're bringing with you.

631
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,400
I'm explaining the kids last week.

632
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,440
I have a question.

633
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:46,400
Like so.

634
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,480
So we had some something similar.

635
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:56,000
We we we even when I used to be at steak fish, we even had like physical sometimes physical

636
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,680
like pagers and all these types of things that you're kind of describing.

637
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:07,920
But what what do you think is the sort of sustainable solution to this type?

638
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:08,400
Right.

639
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Because because like the the reason why maybe some people have this type of PTSD is because

640
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:25,360
if they don't respond like immediately, then right, you might get slash or you might your

641
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,320
uptime might go down and and some of these more competitive, at least at the moment,

642
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,880
the limited set of metrics that validators are compared across each other.

643
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:36,320
Right.

644
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,920
That's what you have to be competitive on or at least like be at the default.

645
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:46,480
But but yeah, how do you see that scaling as right from because there's many sides of validators,

646
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:46,720
right?

647
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,040
As you kind of mentioned to you guys, it's expensive to have other people in different time

648
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,440
zone, sometimes having that 24 seven through six, five coverage.

649
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,440
But as for you, you know, because it seems like you guys are all I think we're I think

650
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,840
you're going to get some very different answers for this, but I'll let I'll let the others go first.

651
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,800
So I think that part of the problem is tender duty itself.

652
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,360
Most of us use tender duty.

653
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,880
And when tender duty first came out, it didn't have different scaling for what level of crisis

654
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,120
a an alert was.

655
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:19,840
Right.

656
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:25,520
So it could have been anything from it being stalled for 30 seconds, say, and then they would

657
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,600
send up the most critical alarm it could.

658
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:27,840
Right.

659
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:35,600
And then now I'm like the different alerts probably six months ago, but I don't know anyone

660
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,200
that has actually updated theirs with the new system.

661
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,760
Right.

662
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,480
So now it can be you can you can set it relatively fine tune what is actually going to inform you

663
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:44,800
or not.

664
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,720
And I think that to to your arms to Rom, your arm,

665
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:56,720
Rama's point, setting up good alerting is that's very advanced, but it's so necessary.

666
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,200
Right.

667
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,080
There are so many things that you can be alerted for that only kind of sort of a little bit

668
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:02,480
matter.

669
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,520
Something you need to know about, but you don't need to address immediately.

670
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,600
It be aware of.

671
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:08,080
Yeah.

672
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:08,640
Be aware of.

673
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:08,800
Yes.

674
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,080
Send it to discord, whatever, but you don't need to be called it for in the morning for it.

675
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,320
And making that leap of the call versus a small alert.

676
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,000
That's a that's a I would say it's a very big leap that most validators haven't started making yet.

677
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,640
Well, it's a it's a quality of life thing.

678
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:31,760
Like you go from, you know, if you manage your alerts properly and even the way like alerts

679
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,280
are raised, like we've changed a lot of things to be time based.

680
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,840
So, you know, sometimes stuff just teeters over and then goes back or you might get a

681
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,560
temporary stall while there's like a lot of transactions in a block or something.

682
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,800
And well, that might be perceived as a stall, but it's just, you know, part of the process

683
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,280
of the block.

684
00:33:53,840 --> 00:34:01,440
So we've like tuned our actual alerts to be more representative of what's going on.

685
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:08,240
So, you know, a stall won't immediately give you a warning if it's stalled for like

686
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:11,360
five seconds or longer than a normal block time.

687
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,840
It'll wait like a minute because it doesn't matter if you're stalled for a minute or it

688
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,640
doesn't matter if your particular node is stalled for a minute at all.

689
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,560
You might miss a couple of blocks, but, you know, but if you're persistently

690
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,960
stalling, then you're going to start missing a lot of blocks.

691
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,040
And then that's where, you know, you tear up your your miscounters.

692
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,760
So, you know, if you're at 5%, I think that's a good good place to start telling you.

693
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,320
But that's not a that's not a page of duty alert.

694
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,960
If you're at 10%, like maybe you want to get a text about that, but that's still not wake

695
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,480
you up in the middle of the night territory.

696
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,520
If you're at 50%, you really need to address that issue.

697
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:54,800
So, I mean, I think especially if you if you share a house with somebody else and I mean,

698
00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:01,360
doubly so, when the small human problem occurs, I think until number don't go up anymore,

699
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:02,960
it probably isn't a phone call.

700
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:12,320
Like I went back like properly full time, like nine days after that we want appeared.

701
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:18,640
And I think within three days, I'd prioritise changing all the page of duty because

702
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,680
if if this is the only 90 minutes of sleep, clear sleep, you're going to get that night.

703
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,320
And page of duty goes off 45 minutes in, you are dead.

704
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,240
Not because it's a problem for you, maybe you can function.

705
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,680
Your partner is going to cut your skin off and wear it as a coat.

706
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:47,520
And that's incredibly potent incentive to fix page of duty and also to add like,

707
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,680
so one of the I think the only two ones now that will wake me up in the middle of the night

708
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,000
are number really don't go up.

709
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,840
Number has not been going out for some time.

710
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:05,440
And I don't know where the fuck the web server has gone, which the second one actually is the

711
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,120
only alert in our entire suite where because it's never happened that alert has never triggered.

712
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,520
And as a result, I don't trust it.

713
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:20,240
And I keep coming up with more and more elaborate ways to try and test that eventuality.

714
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,480
Because we do use some cloud stuff and blah, blah, blah, and the odd bit of on demand.

715
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,040
But I think eventually I'm going to add too much alerting, right?

716
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,800
And it is just going to go off because I've added too many alerts and one of them just

717
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,400
fails because of some reason.

718
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,360
And I fucking guarantee it would be at the worst possible time in the worst possible situation.

719
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,640
It probably won't even wake me up, but it will wake the rest of the house up.

720
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,040
And you know, I don't even need to explain why, you know,

721
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,960
it's going to be a bad morning for me after that.

722
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,640
I'm going to be in the doghouse.

723
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:58,480
So Dan, you and a bunch of steakfish people have started a new validator year.

724
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,480
How do you guys manage this?

725
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,680
Can I get up real quick?

726
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:02,240
Yeah.

727
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:03,920
We haven't introduced Dan.

728
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,280
Dan, we all know you, of course.

729
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?

730
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:07,840
I mean, we've lost some kind of media.

731
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,400
Well, that's a good idea.

732
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,280
We said he is Dan.

733
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,160
That's a good idea.

734
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,120
Yeah, exactly.

735
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,400
Yeah, I guess in this capacity, I'm representing Alio.

736
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,280
It's a ZKL1 that's like this hybrid.

737
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,400
It's basically straight forward.

738
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,640
Consensus and block building are done with POS,

739
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,640
but there is like a POW element, which is this mining component for grinding ZK snarks,

740
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,880
which you get kind of off chain computation verified through ZK.

741
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,560
But yeah, I've been in the Valor space for a while.

742
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:41,760
I wouldn't necessarily call it a Valor.

743
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,840
It's like an incubator.

744
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:50,400
One of my goals is to, I want like a, as corny as it sounds,

745
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,520
I want a Valorator to exist in every country.

746
00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:01,680
And so like, because yeah, that's going to be a long spiel, but that's kind of what I want to help

747
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,160
create.

748
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,720
I want to have more different parts of the world have more representation.

749
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,200
It's interesting hearing you guys talk about Australia,

750
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,200
because that's like a pretty interesting kind of like, right?

751
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:20,640
It's literally geographically separated, but then being able to have that type of connectivity

752
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,200
to represent like that part of the APAC, right?

753
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,200
Even though Australia is not Asian, right?

754
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,960
It's still considered APAC.

755
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,800
I think it is extremely important just for most of like the infrastructure resilience of networks

756
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,840
that we had seen obviously with like what happened on Solana in 2021 with Hetzner.

757
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:47,600
And then also the ideological component of that for, right, if these blockchains are supposed to serve

758
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:56,240
the entire world, it should be served, you know, pun intended with servers and stuff from all around the world.

759
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:56,720
Right?

760
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:01,120
I don't think there should be like a specific contingent.

761
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:08,400
A specific contingent, sorry, I don't think that it's great to have a specific like region in the world that gets to

762
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,920
dictate the type of infrastructure services and how those infrastructure services can

763
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,800
eventually be responsible for guiding from off-chain to on-chain governance,

764
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,400
how the rest of the world use it, right?

765
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,560
The rest of the world has to also be at the table.

766
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:28,480
And then if there's this table that this blockchain governance off-chain or on-chain is happening,

767
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,360
the seats around that table should be representative of many different types of regions.

768
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:42,640
And then I want to make sure that the people that are sitting in those chairs are capable of contributing to these global conversations at an adequate level,

769
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:53,200
where if the conversations are calculus and you only know how to speak algebra, then you need to get them to a level where they are capable of speaking that language.

770
00:39:53,200 --> 00:40:02,320
So, funny enough, it's like, you know, if we can have like a UN of validators or, I don't know, we can maybe call it like the G20 or something,

771
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,560
or BRICS versus NATO, I don't know.

772
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:13,120
But I think that's the way that, right, that both services the ideological goal for this type of decentralization,

773
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:20,080
which then services or makes it a lot easier for this type of infrastructure resilience and decentralized infrastructure hotspots,

774
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,360
which maybe we can call it like black holes, right?

775
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,800
Because we definitely had a black hole in Western Europe for a certain amount of time.

776
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:33,840
But then we need to plant other black holes in different parts, so the gravity well doesn't get bigger and bigger the longer we wait.

777
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:43,200
So, back to your question a minute ago, Dan, which was about like uptime resilience, that kind of stuff from a validator to a validator basis.

778
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:51,760
Like, you know, from the fact that you've just been talking about, and I suppose what you're saying with, you know, the status quo right now,

779
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,920
there are validators at the table and there are validators not.

780
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,840
Is there attention there, right?

781
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:02,400
Because, you know, the way to have uptime is to have professional operations that are making enough money.

782
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,920
So, first of all, there's an economic thing that's currently not happening in a bear market,

783
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:12,800
which is that you need to probably from every single chain be able to wash your own face and possibly pay for multiple employees,

784
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,040
which is obviously just not the status quo.

785
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,480
And arguably with the number of blockchains that are at extant now, it is not possible.

786
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:27,600
There's not big enough market for enough money to pay for enough people to get that security,

787
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:33,760
other than a small number of very big validators, which is not enough that number, whatever that is,

788
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,200
of really big validator companies is not nearly enough for decentralization, right?

789
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,560
And then you look at the, and that's in the context again, so this is where the tension is even more so,

790
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:50,880
the context where even if you take all validators, including all the small ones,

791
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:59,440
there still aren't enough validators to meaningfully talk about decentralization in a lot of cases in terms of true fault tolerance,

792
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:08,880
of the kind envisaged ideologically, I think at a really high level for these kinds of systems, right?

793
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:16,400
So I guess I'm kind of interested in like, what do you think of the, do you think that the,

794
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:17,600
I guess there's two questions here, right?

795
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:25,600
Number one is, do you think that the current big incumbents are actually like an anti-pattern thing that we need to be worried about?

796
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,880
Because if so, there's a tension there between the fact that they're the only ones that can currently run professionally,

797
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,480
or at least whether or not they do, they seem to do get slashed a lot.

798
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,400
So the reality is different, right?

799
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,520
But on paper, they're the only ones that can afford to do the professional infrastructure things that we'd expect.

800
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:48,000
And the number two is that like, well, does the entire system, if it's going to expand to be truly decentralized,

801
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:55,040
like you said, have a huge number of participants, should we be just trying to take governance and all that stuff out of the picture,

802
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,920
and require no education other than the technical education to run the thing?

803
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:05,600
I suppose back to the original Bitcoin, run it on your laptop, mine's in Bitcoins, right?

804
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,120
It didn't require much brain power.

805
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:13,840
You just ran the demon, and it obviously wasn't decentralized, but it was.

806
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,160
You ran the laptop, it did the thing, it did one thing.

807
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,000
You didn't have to worry about voting.

808
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:25,920
Yeah, all three of those questions are fascinating questions that I've been thinking a lot about.

809
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:34,240
So one was actually, I had hosted this infrastructure conference in Vienna, Austria in July,

810
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:47,840
that I think, and we wrote a report from that, and it was basically a survey of validators that had attended.

811
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,240
And I believe I, yeah, it was kind of, that was very like last minute.

812
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,360
I think I invited most of you guys as well.

813
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,280
But we basically had the whole stack, right?

814
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:03,440
We had the foundations like EF, Solana Foundation, Web3 Foundation, ICF,

815
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,640
and then Alio.

816
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,360
And then we had like a lot of the validators from each of those networks,

817
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,200
and the data centers, cloud providers, etc., like Tencent, Alibaba,

818
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,760
Hetsner, OVH, Equinix, Latitude.

819
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:21,200
And it was really fascinating because there's sort of like this, right?

820
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Short-term and long-term kind of thinking, which addresses, I think,

821
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,280
your second question about the professional versus non-professional valid.

822
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:35,280
I wouldn't call it non-professional, but professional, like large-scale validators versus smaller

823
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,680
and medium-size.

824
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,600
And I do have an opinion on that.

825
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:45,760
But most validators, I think, want, prefer that type of, to address just your last point,

826
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,440
it's like the commoditization of it.

827
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:56,400
I'm not saying like I am deeply rooted in the type of role that validators or as infrastructure

828
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:03,520
service providers should take in that difference between a POW, specifically commoditized to a POS,

829
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,440
which is a bit more specialized.

830
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:14,000
Because in my opinion, I feel like the moment we switched to POS, we did not become commoditized

831
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:23,760
because there was this very clear element of specialization that required publicized

832
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,640
differentiation between the different infrastructure providers to get different stake, right?

833
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,040
Because everyone has to fight for stake, right?

834
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,160
Have stake come to them.

835
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:37,840
And that's where that specialization differs from that commoditization because it's not like a

836
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,480
infrastructure down to the different types of...

837
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:41,200
Is it...

838
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,160
It is specialization, I suppose.

839
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,440
I would agree with that.

840
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:50,320
But it's more of a million monkeys, million type writers specialization than it is.

841
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:57,520
It's people brute-forcing a solution to get more stake rather than...

842
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,240
And this is what we would expect, I think, from...

843
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:08,560
I'm not hip to the maths, but I would expect from a kind of evolutionary behavior perspective,

844
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,280
or like a complex systems perspective, that people would try the dumbest things first before

845
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:18,000
they get to the point of going, oh, I'm going to read a bunch of governance and think carefully

846
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:23,600
about stuff and write essays and publish blog posts that are well thought out, like some of

847
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,960
Shulze's or whatever, to try and get more stake.

848
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,720
First of all, I'm going to try...

849
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:33,680
I'm going to copy-paste somebody's code that has a staking UI that will only state to our thing.

850
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:39,040
The second thing I'll do is I'll go on Twitter and slag off a bunch of people really loudly,

851
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,840
whip up a mob of people and get a bunch of stake.

852
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,080
Those are the kinds of things that...

853
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:51,040
A lot of... Various degrees in various places, but a lot of the tactics so far in the space

854
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,520
have been very lowest common denominator.

855
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Yeah, 100%.

856
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,360
That's maybe my feeling, but I don't think it's uncommoner feeling.

857
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,000
Yeah, it isn't.

858
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:08,400
And I do think it's also because of the lack of, let's say, actionable analytics.

859
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:14,720
So we have a very small set of quantitative data that people are able to see,

860
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:19,840
but that is also something that people don't necessarily care about and see too much.

861
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:24,240
I would say lazy or sticky stake.

862
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:30,720
I think a really good taste of that we saw, and even in Ethereum, which is some of the more commoditized

863
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:37,120
POS infrastructure, is there was a very large validator that did eventually get acquired by a large

864
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:44,000
centralized exchange that when the beacon chain first launched, they got slashed 75 times in a row.

865
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,160
So much so bad that a lot of validators and we, myself, had reached out to them asking,

866
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,400
like, hey, do you need any help or what's going on?

867
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:56,480
But the reality was that you should not have even gotten slashed and been kicked out of the set

868
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,160
even once because at least with the beacon chain, you're out for a whole year.

869
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,560
You're not getting a stake and you can't withdraw it.

870
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:08,720
But so the quantitative metric that people would be able to base their decision on

871
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:13,200
who to stake was very bad for that particular validator service provider.

872
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,920
But the reality was that people still staked in mass, incredibly large amounts,

873
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:25,760
which spoke to this sort of like people in care or people didn't know enough to care

874
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,160
or they didn't know where to look to care.

875
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,040
And it was just branding that made it a such a sort of like this.

876
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,080
Well, it's kind of, I suppose, back to the mistaking technological system for a social system.

877
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:38,880
Yeah, yeah.

878
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:44,480
And because they're the wherever, however it is that social discovery of like,

879
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,120
because it's the thing of like, you know, why do people not steal?

880
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,280
They're concerned as much about like in a small community, you're concerned more about

881
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,280
or a better example would be like maybe credit or debt, right?

882
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,640
You could go to if you live in a small village, you can go to the pub, drink a few pints and say,

883
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,800
oh, fuck, I haven't got my wallet with me.

884
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,400
Can I come back and pay tomorrow?

885
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,560
You're going to come back and pay tomorrow because otherwise that person's going to tell everybody,

886
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,920
you fucking pay me is owes me five pints.

887
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,880
Like, and whatever that kind of social discovery means is, you know, some of those

888
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,520
means could be very, very complex, but they don't exist yet or they're poor.

889
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,880
Poorly available, maybe you're poorly understood.

890
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:25,760
I think it is.

891
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:26,960
That's also still trying to that.

892
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,160
That's also still a little bit like my engineering how on there.

893
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,080
I'm like, oh, well, maybe we can build a solution.

894
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,080
But yeah, I don't think I don't know.

895
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:35,920
It's a it's a tricky one, isn't it?

896
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,320
It's it's the reason why rated exists, right?

897
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,480
Like, Elias Seamos from Bison Trails, he used to be a protocol specialist there.

898
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:49,040
He left and he made like a very comprehensive Ethereum validator analytics review.

899
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:54,960
Review tool and then they raise a lot of money and then they're servicing that same with JK,

900
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,840
the former strategy head of state fresh he left and created a Pibara, which also does

901
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:05,840
that type of it's kind of like a mixture of like stake pooling with validator analytics

902
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,200
on different chains.

903
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:14,800
And that I think is a evolution of a rightful evolution of the type of analytics that can

904
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,920
be actionable that will change us from what we saw with that previous validator service

905
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,800
right that got slash like 75 times a row when the Ethereum beacon changes launched to how

906
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,320
people can kind of be judged on their merits.

907
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:34,720
And that type of sort of like frameworks or standardization, I think is going to help

908
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:35,760
solve, right?

909
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:41,120
I really think that's the level of us getting the validator ecosystem coming from like

910
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,880
this adolescent phase into like this maturity phase.

911
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:50,080
I think three, four years ago, I think validator ecosystem was definitely still in its infancy.

912
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:57,600
But right, I think there are, it's like inefficient market resulted in very inefficient sort of

913
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,960
let's say stake being distributed.

914
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:07,760
But hopefully we're going to be able to see some of that more efficient sort of stake

915
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,840
being flown away and perhaps just removing the choice from users that like state pools

916
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:14,840
do.

917
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:15,840
Right.

918
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:16,840
Okay.

919
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,840
In state pools is a really interesting one, isn't it?

920
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,120
Because you're effectively, it's like hedging your risk, isn't it?

921
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,160
Across multiple validates, quite smart.

922
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,160
Yeah.

923
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:31,040
The smart thing to present to is an example of a technological solution to the social

924
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,040
problem, right?

925
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,240
Just go, well, don't ever let people stake to one provider and try and spread it out

926
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:37,240
in some way.

927
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:39,080
But I suppose there's another question here, right?

928
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:46,800
We're obviously talking primarily from experience, background, cosmos, Ethereum, and look, okay,

929
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,840
three to five years time, obviously Ethereum staking is still going to be a thing.

930
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,480
It's like Bitcoin, it has intrinsic value just on brand at this point and will continue

931
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:56,480
to do so.

932
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,240
But all of the other networks that we're kind of a part of now that might be worth something

933
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:08,560
now, are we at the point where all of those sort of validator run networks are going to

934
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:14,600
survive almost certainly not like, almost certainly like the 90th percentile, right?

935
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,680
If we're looking at startups, we'd say nine out of 10 would fail.

936
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,000
I think for blockchains, it's likely to be higher than that.

937
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,480
But what does this mean in terms of validators and proof of stake, right?

938
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:30,680
Because this, so we've been talking about it as a social problem and a technical problem.

939
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:35,040
What happens if somebody's technical solution that ends up getting traction is we just abandon

940
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:42,040
proof of stake and validators do move back to more of an infrastructure provider role.

941
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,800
But maybe they become, let's say, even more fungible or maybe they become less fungible,

942
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:47,800
right?

943
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,640
I don't know that I haven't thought quite enough about it to know what the pros and cons

944
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:59,120
would be of designing a system where validators were more fungible, sorry, less fungible.

945
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:04,280
But I guess I do know that the reality is that if you wanted to be super decentralized,

946
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,640
a good way of doing that would be to make them way more fungible, right?

947
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,640
Yes.

948
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:18,800
As much as I love POW and Bitcoin, I give this presentation a lot when I was doing these

949
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,120
validator workshops in Southeast Asia and stuff.

950
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:31,720
But something that I think is given sort of like, and I love the whole network state

951
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:35,880
idea and concept, by the way, and I'm not ragging on it too.

952
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,040
I don't want to say I'll be ragging on it too much, but everyone, we all live somewhere,

953
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,040
right?

954
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,040
We all live in some jurisdiction and we're obviously doxxed and stuff.

955
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,880
And I don't want to live in a cave with some node strap to my back and try to beam stuff

956
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:54,400
into space to stay with the ideology.

957
00:53:54,400 --> 00:54:00,720
Because believe me, I was probably the most maximalistic Ethereum classic supporter back

958
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:02,160
in the day.

959
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:07,520
But the reality is that we all have to abide by certain jurisdictions.

960
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:13,720
There's jurisdictions that require compliance to particular views that they have.

961
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:18,760
And whether that be OFAC compliance or the way that you tax your validator or staking

962
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:23,840
rewards, et cetera, that are beholden to sort of, and that becomes like a limiting factor

963
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,400
to where you can host your infrastructure, which is an existential threat to the type

964
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:34,880
of infrastructure resilience that a network requires to be sort of like claim its resilience

965
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,840
and because of that decentralization.

966
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:43,840
And so I think there needs to be this complementary step that validator operators, let's say infrastructure

967
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:52,560
service providers have where they are formed in a certain way where that commoditization

968
00:54:52,560 --> 00:55:01,280
argument of sorry, that anonymous commoditization path becomes less and less certain as let's

969
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:08,840
say the next five to 10 years regulatory regimes or countries or different like groups of countries

970
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,960
get to decide or bring the gavel down on this.

971
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:21,720
So a technical version of a vision like that might be to say, okay, is a validator a single

972
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:27,560
validator or is a validator a distributed group of three validators that all get equal

973
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:28,560
reward?

974
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,360
I mean, let's not get into the fact that legally that might be considered a joint venture

975
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,960
or multilateral joint venture or something.

976
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,640
I know it is, I'm not going to bring out the totally tax time banner again.

977
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,880
We're not going to, like anything else, we'll get the legal advice we need when we get

978
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:43,880
there.

979
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,680
But is that the kind of thing you're talking about where you'd have multiple entities combined

980
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,720
or is it some other kind of situation?

981
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:57,040
No, I don't necessarily think, yeah, maybe that'd be actually quite interesting if there's

982
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,560
like a group of entities that do come back.

983
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,640
I pulled that out of my back pocket purely because so something that's happened since

984
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:11,840
I think you're on the podcast last time Daniel, as I am a computer science researcher, when

985
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,280
I'm not running the validator company, I'm doing a part-time PhD, I'm a computer science

986
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,480
researcher into digital cash, like future of money stuff.

987
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,240
So there's all CBDC type stuff.

988
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:26,400
One of the interesting problems you have with that is that you have a bunch of small, a

989
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,960
small number of operators that are banks, right?

990
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:35,560
If they fuck up, the world melts down, right?

991
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:40,640
A government has to go into parliament and be like, why has this validator stop signing

992
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,240
blocks, right?

993
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,800
Those are not the guys you need to worry about.

994
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,880
But they also, as part of a lot of these infrastructure designs for anything that might ever potentially

995
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,920
interface into any kind of permissionless network, there's different tiers, right?

996
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:59,280
And you get to the point where you're like, okay, well, it depends on your solution for

997
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:00,280
digital cash, right?

998
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:06,200
But in a bunch of situations, you have parts of your architectural piece that are essential,

999
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:13,400
but potentially untrusted compared to or of a lower trust level or lower quality than

1000
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,520
a bank, right?

1001
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:21,040
So one of the things that I've had a lot of thinking time on in the last couple of months

1002
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:28,000
has been how do you sort of, what's your level of trust for say an entity that is like a

1003
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:35,120
company but may be fallible, but nobody is going to get pulled in front of like a political,

1004
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,960
like what's it called an inquiry board if something goes wrong, because people's money

1005
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:40,960
has disappeared, right?

1006
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,560
Because we're talking about actual dollars here, actual dollars issued by the central

1007
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,760
government, actual pounds, actual euros, whatever.

1008
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:52,640
And one of the interesting things that I've been thinking about was multi-jurisdictional

1009
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:58,800
entities because a lot of times, all our validators are as a public key, right?

1010
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,360
And you can constitute a public key in a whole bunch of ways.

1011
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,160
So I don't know, there's something quite interesting in that design space, which is

1012
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:07,520
something that's very front of my mind.

1013
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:12,360
So that's a long-winded way of saying, I know I said something that was interesting there,

1014
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,480
it wasn't something I'm not clever enough to have just pulled out of my back pocket.

1015
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:25,280
Yeah, I think maybe the closest like that DVT style way of running it, but also I think

1016
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:34,080
what I would like to see it from a lens of is that, because you're describing like multi-jurisdictional,

1017
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,880
like currency, and I think you have to look at it.

1018
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:44,960
I would say that I would like to look at it from that perspective, where it's that you're

1019
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:51,840
running the assumption is that the technological solution or the financial technology platform

1020
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:59,200
that is this blockchain that you're servicing and need to keep up is going to be the de facto

1021
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,880
platform that the world uses.

1022
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:06,840
And from that perspective, that comes with a certain level of responsibility that some

1023
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:14,480
of these infrastructure providers or node runners, et cetera, have to operate with.

1024
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,600
And then that requires, and just working backward, that requires all these different things that

1025
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:27,760
we need to fix, not fix, but address, like the type of, as we were talking about initially,

1026
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:34,120
what type of operators are necessary to ensure that there is high uptime, so that there is

1027
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:40,720
no relatively lower interruptions to this network that the entire world's financial

1028
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:47,520
ecosystem and whatever is built on top of it is going to continue to operate with minimal

1029
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:53,160
catastrophic damage if it does happen and the ability to recover from that, which is obviously

1030
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:57,480
decentralization, addresses that with its infrastructure resilience.

1031
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:04,280
But also from the operator level, and as you mentioned, the future of validators on different

1032
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:12,240
POS networks that may survive or not, I kind of see it, and sorry for my bad analogies,

1033
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:21,760
but it's like, I kind of see networks as different cities, and maybe validators are in some ways

1034
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:28,840
a bit mercenary because they are operating different networks.

1035
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,880
They wouldn't necessarily claim to be loyalists to a particular network in this analogy, like

1036
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:40,120
a city, but I do see, think that eventually that consolidation as proof of stake networks,

1037
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:46,160
they don't succeed, validators can easily leave, or relatively with a bit of friction

1038
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,040
leave depending on what they're doing.

1039
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:54,040
There's a more alarming adenture to that analogy, which is in the city-state's period of European

1040
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:58,960
history, primarily mercenaries were paid in movable goods and gold, and when they weren't

1041
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:05,040
paid, they sacked the city-state that they were formally contracted to.

1042
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:14,320
I'm not saying this is my opinion or statement, but sometimes extreme circumstances do help

1043
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:19,360
build better systems.

1044
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:20,640
I'm not advocating for that.

1045
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:27,120
I think a really great example is when the wildfires were going on in Canada and they

1046
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:32,440
blew out to New York and everyone was complaining, there were those studies that were coming out

1047
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:40,200
and saying 30% of these wildfires are started by firemen or ex-firemen because their communities

1048
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,840
were threatening to take away their budget or something.

1049
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,800
Sometimes you have to hold someone's hand to the fire, but that's not the solution,

1050
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:55,080
but I wouldn't necessarily say it's in the wrong path, but because of that-

1051
01:01:55,080 --> 01:02:02,280
I'm waiting for when there is a blockchain that whether it's due to a foundation mismanaging

1052
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:11,280
delegations or some other mechanism, the validator set colludes to essentially hold the blockchain's

1053
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,400
feet to the fire.

1054
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,520
We'll be fast-dating to see why.

1055
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:17,520
There was-

1056
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,200
It's only a matter of time, is my opinion on that one.

1057
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:25,800
There was a really interesting one that I was really excited to see, not necessarily because

1058
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:32,240
there was disruptions, but there was a foundation that had made a particular decision that angered

1059
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,200
the validator community.

1060
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:39,280
Some of the validators purposely, obviously at their own expense, they're shooting themselves

1061
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:44,920
in the foot, but to make a statement, they were not producing blocks and then that disrupted

1062
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,200
the network and slowed it down a bit.

1063
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,040
It's kind of like the whole Buddhist monk-

1064
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,040
What network was that?

1065
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,880
I'm guessing it wasn't in Cosmos as well.

1066
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,240
It was a smaller chain.

1067
01:02:55,240 --> 01:03:01,120
I have to look it up again, but it's like self-immolation protests.

1068
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,840
It brought attention and it disrupted things.

1069
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,000
Protesters going on to the highways and blocking traffic, even though it had nothing to do

1070
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,760
with it, but it got attention.

1071
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:19,640
I don't know if the foundation, that blockchain's foundation, did anything.

1072
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,000
I wouldn't say it's collusion.

1073
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,960
I would say it's coordination.

1074
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:29,720
I think that's more democratic coordination to make things happen where actually infrastructure

1075
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:35,520
service providers like validators basically hold the keys to the castle.

1076
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:40,560
If there is enough coordination, validators can do whatever they want.

1077
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:49,680
No, it was a separate one, not from Jacob.

1078
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:56,200
Just to finish my analogy for the consolidation of chains where validators will have to be

1079
01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:04,040
like choose, a mercenary eventually has to have a headquarters somewhere.

1080
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:09,520
I think the winning chain or the winning town or city or however large that becomes, that

1081
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:19,440
will become where it will plant the bricks instead of tent poles and stuff.

1082
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:28,960
I think that is the process through where we don't necessarily have too many of that

1083
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,760
choice and loyalty situation.

1084
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:38,960
Again, this is just off the top of my head.

1085
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,880
What would that even look like in terms of validators planting deeper roots in one community

1086
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,680
or one blockchain?

1087
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:52,800
There isn't a lot of other than maybe investing more in the community.

1088
01:04:52,800 --> 01:05:00,240
It would seem that the better, more optimal play for validators always to plant deeper

1089
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:08,560
roots within the validator community to shore up a position of, well, I use the word collusion,

1090
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:14,600
which is probably not the right word, but you're saying like, I guess I mutual support,

1091
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,800
because if you look at something like mesh security on the one hand, Roach is all about,

1092
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:23,600
I mean, I guess it's in some sense, it's a little bit like a shared state pool, right?

1093
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:29,160
But the thing for a validator to do, if you're, hey, we can afford to do whatever we want,

1094
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,400
twiddle our thumbs as long as the validators stay up for three years and we've got, let's

1095
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,800
imagine some amount, we've got $3 million, we can hire some engineers, what should we

1096
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,360
do with our time?

1097
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,560
It would be interesting to know whether spending $3 million investing in a community and trying

1098
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:49,440
to get more stake on a network versus going, should we implement a staking solution where

1099
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:55,120
we could gang together with several validators, increase our overall size and all of us take

1100
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,400
a slice of a pie?

1101
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:02,440
I would guess that the supply side one going with the validators would be a better business

1102
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,320
decision and bring more benefit from an economic perspective.

1103
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,240
Yeah, it's like a union, right?

1104
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,680
A union could, you like the union.

1105
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,520
Well, you're trying to create monopsony power.

1106
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:13,120
So yes, it's exactly like a union.

1107
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:14,800
It's like, is it caught out?

1108
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,800
Yeah, yeah.

1109
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,600
And or a guild, if we're being charitable.

1110
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,800
Yeah, yeah.

1111
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:30,280
And I think the very existence of guilds that have the ability to take power will also invite

1112
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:37,120
the creation of other guilds as well, which I think from this more like capitalistic or

1113
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:44,280
game, this capitalistic approach of incentives drive everything on these chains for operators

1114
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:49,440
that should be a thing.

1115
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,000
Because for example, if you guys collude and you have enough stake power and you change

1116
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,560
a protocol and then you increase your, you say like, if you're part of this guild, you

1117
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:01,760
have to be get more stake rewards, staking rewards or something, right?

1118
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,160
Then other people are going to protest whoever.

1119
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:05,800
That's an extreme example.

1120
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,560
But I think the, maybe we should start a game of nodes guild where you have to acquire some

1121
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:16,720
stake and then you give, you give the people on this podcast 5% of the stake that you've

1122
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,840
acquired in order to be a part of the guild.

1123
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,200
And then you get to keep 95%, no big deal.

1124
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:27,320
But then, you know, we have, you know, is it more like NATO?

1125
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,360
Is it more like the mafia you decide?

1126
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:33,880
Or is it just like a two party system, right?

1127
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:42,240
But I guess like getting back to the, I guess like the future of what validators should be

1128
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:47,920
in terms of like powerful, larger service provider, validator service providers that

1129
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:52,000
are just professional versus like other types.

1130
01:07:52,000 --> 01:08:01,520
I am of the opinion that if POS versus POW is commoditized to specialized, then there

1131
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:07,240
needs to be more leaning into specialized and that validators themselves should not

1132
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:14,680
only have the responsibility of just running infrastructure, because if you just run infrastructure,

1133
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:20,960
that type of specialization will just aggregate power to larger providers that can sort of

1134
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:22,680
just run infrastructure, right?

1135
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,800
That's all they need.

1136
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:30,640
And their DevOps team will be like five people and their marketing team will be like 30 people,

1137
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:31,640
right?

1138
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:36,600
Like, because that's that type of game that exists in reality with the larger staking

1139
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:38,640
service providers.

1140
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:46,320
But in order to avoid that, I think the leaning into specialization is going to be, I think,

1141
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:56,360
a more diverse and healthy ecosystem where to respond to your question of like what can

1142
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:05,720
validators do or contribute into their ecosystems, you have many things that are not just infrastructure

1143
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:07,200
providers.

1144
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:19,360
And I think a very small example or like one part of an example is the hackathon company

1145
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:22,240
that runs validators and then they run validators for public goods.

1146
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:23,800
I forgot what that was called.

1147
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:30,200
Dora hacks, they do hackathons, but then they also run validators.

1148
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:36,160
And then they fulfill like a pretty important part of an early ecosystem and establishing

1149
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,280
these this element of this ecosystem.

1150
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,560
And if we're using this sort of town or city analogy, there's a lot of different parts

1151
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:52,720
of the of the of this town or city or ecosystem that that that is critical to keep it alive.

1152
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:58,600
And so right, who are the firemen or fire policemen or like water companies or like,

1153
01:09:58,600 --> 01:09:59,600
etc.

1154
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:04,240
Public library of these ecosystems that are like this this fundamental layer.

1155
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:11,720
And I do think that maybe it's like the other way, maybe it's also that there are different

1156
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:18,840
companies or organizations that can fulfill parts of the ecosystem while and then also

1157
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,120
run run run a validator.

1158
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:25,400
I'm not saying that's like the only solution, but that's an interesting way of kind of seeding

1159
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:32,160
in addressing the this was a there was a variation on this very, very common in in Cosmos, which

1160
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,360
is dev should run validators.

1161
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:40,920
But then as dev you spend a huge amount of your time running the validator and less time

1162
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:41,920
deving.

1163
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:46,000
And actually, in certain cases, the validator becomes more profitable than development.

1164
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:48,000
And then the development stops.

1165
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:49,000
Yeah.

1166
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:55,040
And I say that because like my my path into validation was a dev who ran a validator and

1167
01:10:55,040 --> 01:11:01,640
then the validator business, you know, we bring in people we we bring in contractors

1168
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:07,720
and other people to help run our validator business because it is that much more significant

1169
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,000
than anything I could do as an individual dev.

1170
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,240
And that's why the business went in that direction, right?

1171
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:18,160
So so that's I mean, and there's another interesting corollary to what you said, which is obviously

1172
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,200
that there's these entities that have agency in the system, right?

1173
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:25,000
And some of them are documented at the moment, some of them aren't two of the only ones we

1174
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,160
know about for certain a devs validators.

1175
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:30,840
And we obviously the foundation is super obvious.

1176
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:37,120
But you know, there are likely a lot of other personas that we don't know about at the moment.

1177
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,200
But the question is, like, should all those personas run validators?

1178
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:41,280
Probably not.

1179
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,640
Is the system ever going to account for those people formally?

1180
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:45,640
Maybe not.

1181
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:49,360
But then you're like, well, it's back to the question of like, you know, with the validator

1182
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,560
comments and everything, like who's lobbying validators?

1183
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:53,960
And these are interesting questions, right?

1184
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:58,160
But at the end of the day, it only matters on the chains where there's money to be made

1185
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,360
or where there's economic value or.

1186
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:02,960
Yeah, exactly, right?

1187
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,080
If a city is doing well, has a lot of money, then everyone goes to that city, right?

1188
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:11,280
Like that's that like no one wants to live in a small country town anymore.

1189
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:13,280
They all move to the city.

1190
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:20,000
And it's that small country towns prerogative to become a big city.

1191
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:21,000
Right?

1192
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:29,880
It's a problem also, I think, with increasing inflation, right?

1193
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,920
Because you can increase inflation as much as you want.

1194
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:33,120
You get more of these tokens.

1195
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,680
But if they're not worth anything, it's a fight that you have to have.

1196
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:43,520
But it's kind of breaking the analogy of like you try to compare it to like how cities

1197
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,040
became greater or nations became greater.

1198
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,840
They like like fought wars and took off each other.

1199
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,400
But I don't think like networks have like armies that they can they can.

1200
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,800
They took over they took over supplies of movable goods and used it to pay for more

1201
01:12:57,800 --> 01:12:58,800
soldiers.

1202
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:04,200
And then eventually ran out of goods to pay the soldiers and usually got sacked themselves.

1203
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:08,040
So I don't know what that solution is.

1204
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:13,560
But I think a lot of things can become a bit clear in terms of motives.

1205
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,320
If you do look at it from that lens of like these blockchains, some of these blockchains

1206
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,240
are literally trying to replace the monetary supply.

1207
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:21,240
Right?

1208
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,200
And like, what does that look like?

1209
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:29,240
And then things definitely become inherently geopolitical and you have to be complimentary

1210
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:34,520
to particular regulatory regions and stuff like that.

1211
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:42,520
But but yeah, the TLDR is is I think that the specialization is at least from the L1

1212
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:48,840
perspective is nice because you can have this diversity, diversity of organizations and

1213
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,200
contributors to your community that make it inherently, right?

1214
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,280
Diversity is resilient.

1215
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:59,800
And then they're also all taking part in what you would say it's like staking or sorry,

1216
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:05,520
node operating and staking is both contributing to your own network security and then also

1217
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:10,800
providing right this sort of redundancy layer and resilience where you're just having this

1218
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,120
these these nodes that are operating also right?

1219
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:19,240
It's like a bakery running a validator in this running something or what's called staking

1220
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:22,200
like moving water around.

1221
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:23,200
Everyone needs water, right?

1222
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,360
Fire department also pouring water like police department.

1223
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:32,960
I think it's that becomes that maybe that part can be come a bit commoditized.

1224
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:39,200
I know that argument breaks because there's that whole white label problem that you have.

1225
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:45,680
But yeah, it's we will we will hopefully we'll figure that out.

1226
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:55,240
But I think my personal opinion is specialization is better and can address a lot of or can potentially

1227
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:59,840
address some of the issues that we've been having.

1228
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:07,120
And with a lot of these sort of parallel developments in in the validator and L1 ecosystem and ecosystem

1229
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:13,160
evolution, hopefully we're going to be able to see a more mature network after a lot of

1230
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,200
the problems that we've seen in the past, right?

1231
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:21,280
And I mentioned like a few like like better analytics to judge people, judge validators

1232
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:29,640
right like like rated or abibara and then increase like operational expertise and experience

1233
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,880
right from validators have been running for a couple years now.

1234
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:38,400
And then with L1 teams that are open to kind of like developing these ecosystems with these

1235
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:44,160
validators like I do help with alio for the validator side.

1236
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:51,360
And then hopefully getting this type of clarity on on how the blockchain world exists in our

1237
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:57,680
world because right, I don't think anyone is comfortable with living their life in caves.

1238
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:02,360
We all want to be able to have some clarity without having like the FBI knocking on your

1239
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:07,000
door and telling you you're going to jail if unless you shut down your notes or something

1240
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:08,000
like that.

1241
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:15,040
So I think I'm pretty bullish on a lot of these these sort of parallels having evolved

1242
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:22,240
over time and turning into something that we can weave together to make a something that

1243
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,560
looks straightforward.

1244
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:31,480
And then right making sure that there is a sustainability for how everyone exists.

1245
01:16:31,480 --> 01:16:35,000
But the reality is that eventually there's going to be a winner or a handful of winners

1246
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:39,160
and the vast majority of these chains will not be around.

1247
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:42,680
I'd like to circle back around something you said.

1248
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,360
You said the problem of white labels hinders this.

1249
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,320
Do you consider white labeling as a problem?

1250
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:55,200
It's really something we've discussed too much on this podcast mostly because I imagine

1251
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:56,520
it doesn't come up too often.

1252
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,360
And so there's not a lot of reason to discuss it.

1253
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:00,800
I think that's the fact that you've raised it.

1254
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:01,800
Yeah.

1255
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,920
I think it's a temporary solution.

1256
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:09,320
The most glaring problem was the Ronin hack because the majority of those validators I

1257
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:13,800
think six out of seven or I forget were white labeled.

1258
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,440
And then there was one that was Dow controlled and all the North Korean hackers had to do

1259
01:17:17,440 --> 01:17:20,640
is get enough tokens to control that Dow to control that last validator.

1260
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:27,240
And they were able to pull off the largest heist because right, right, like decentralized

1261
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,960
and name only and then they're all just being controlled by a single entity or like, you

1262
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:35,400
know, you can also say decentralized and name only and all running on AWS or right.

1263
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:44,320
So I think that's the existential risk of white labeling, but white labeling can help.

1264
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:49,960
I think it white labeling is also used for decentralization.

1265
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:55,320
For example, a lot of centralized exchanges white label their services, right?

1266
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:56,600
They don't run their own validator.

1267
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:57,600
They do.

1268
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:00,560
But then they also allow other validators extra third parties come.

1269
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:05,280
They do diligence them, they vet them, and then they will run parts of their stake or

1270
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:07,000
parts of their networks, right?

1271
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:11,320
If there's they need to run polka dot validators and staking, they'll have some polka dot validators,

1272
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:12,320
right?

1273
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,680
Like come in and help help service those.

1274
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:21,240
But I do think and I know Cosmos has always had like these witch hunts with white labeling,

1275
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:30,320
which is, you know, I don't think that's necessarily bad or good, but it's, it's, it's, yeah, it,

1276
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:37,560
I think it's a temporary, they are temporary solutions because in my ideal world, I think

1277
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:44,640
centralized exchanges should run their own validators and take more active, active roles

1278
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,560
in the ecosystem that way.

1279
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:50,400
And yeah, so.

1280
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:54,640
So in the case of like centralized exchanges running validators, so actually, I mean, really

1281
01:18:54,640 --> 01:19:00,280
in the case of any entity running validators, I suppose, you're back back to the decentralization

1282
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:01,280
tension, right?

1283
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:06,800
There are a bunch of ways that we've talked about the podcast over the years now about

1284
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:12,640
how you can measure decentralization in a set.

1285
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:14,760
That's a whole other conversation.

1286
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:20,320
But you know, do you think that there's some kind of thing where there is like other than

1287
01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:27,440
the obvious, which is the minimum threshold of voting power, be that 50%, be that 33.4%.

1288
01:19:27,440 --> 01:19:34,160
But do you think that there is a pragmatic case for always limiting like the upper bound

1289
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:39,320
of what a validator should have relative to some arbitrary number, right?

1290
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:42,000
I mean, that might just be simply profitability, right?

1291
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,720
The upper bound should be just above where profitability is and the validator set should

1292
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:47,200
be just as wide as is profitable.

1293
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:48,200
I don't know.

1294
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:55,160
Yeah, that's, there's a sort of consensus level answer to that, right?

1295
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:58,680
Because for example, on Alio, if you have more than 25% of the network, you don't get

1296
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:00,240
any rewards beyond that.

1297
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:04,960
And then that's specifically to make sure that there are at least four node operators running

1298
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,520
a chain at all times, the Alio chain at all times.

1299
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:11,600
Yeah, go ahead.

1300
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:16,840
So the 25% threshold, does that mean that they can't be delegated to above 25%?

1301
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,880
They can delegate to them, but then you're just not going to get any extra rewards beyond

1302
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:23,640
that 25% staked.

1303
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:30,360
So does that mean like, say you've got 10 different people with 100, you know, staked

1304
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:35,760
and that, and that equals 50% of the total available to stake, right?

1305
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:42,360
Does that mean that like those 10 people get rewards on 50 of their tokens and not 100?

1306
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:44,240
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1307
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:46,520
You don't get anything beyond that.

1308
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:48,400
So the reduction is distributed across?

1309
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,480
Yeah, it's proportional, proportionate.

1310
01:20:50,480 --> 01:20:51,480
Yeah.

1311
01:20:51,480 --> 01:20:53,400
It's still pretty high.

1312
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:57,360
I couldn't imagine that happening, to be honest.

1313
01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:04,160
But so yeah, that's like, at least with Alio, that's like the very specific technical requirement

1314
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:07,120
for that type of decentralization, right?

1315
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:11,360
Because like you're not incentivized from a game theoretic grade to stake with a validator

1316
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:15,800
just because it's at the top and it has more than 25%.

1317
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:19,760
So I guess communicating that to the stake is also important because you can have that

1318
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,360
limitation there, but if no one knows about it, they'll just be receiving less rewards

1319
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:24,360
and not know why.

1320
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:25,600
I just think it's normal.

1321
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:30,240
Yeah, and it's just like how on a lot of other networks, people will stake because

1322
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:35,120
a validator is initially sitting their commission at like 5% and then a week later they set

1323
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:39,520
it to like 50%, no one checks and they're like, what happened to all my, what happened

1324
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,160
to all my rewards?

1325
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:50,760
So that's also a UX problem and I believe like leap wallet attempt to help the people

1326
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,000
who use that wallet with those types of things.

1327
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:57,320
Like I know, for example, that you will get an alert if you get slashed, particularly on

1328
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:01,680
Kajira and everyone will leave.

1329
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:02,680
Which is nice.

1330
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:06,840
I think like the interface that wallets have, like mobile wallets, for example, are really

1331
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:07,840
great.

1332
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:12,320
For example, Phantom wallet, like the popular Solana wallet, they run their own validator,

1333
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:17,560
and you can choose from that validator and then it's like you stake with Phantom wallet.

1334
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:18,560
Kepler also does.

1335
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:19,560
Kepler has Kepler-

1336
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,160
Oh, there's a bunch of people who do it.

1337
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:29,640
And I think that is a good example of one critical piece of the ecosystem that provides

1338
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:36,240
a service that isn't staking that also has that.

1339
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:38,760
And that's the same as the centralized exchanges as well.

1340
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:43,040
Like they take all of the tokens and stake them with their own validator.

1341
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:44,040
Yeah.

1342
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:45,400
And they just don't.

1343
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:49,740
I think there's a very popular, there's a infamous chain, I think that's mostly centralized

1344
01:22:49,740 --> 01:22:54,520
exchanges who are running those validators at the top of the list.

1345
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:56,280
But then they were also punished, right?

1346
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:04,320
Like a lot of people, a lot of the ex independent validators were able to deal with that problem

1347
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,400
through protocol level changes.

1348
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:10,560
But to get back to the-

1349
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:13,160
Wait, just to be clear, we're showing, we're talking about them?

1350
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:14,160
Which chain?

1351
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:15,160
Oh, I didn't say the chain.

1352
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:20,800
I don't want to shit on any chain, but there's a, I will say-

1353
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:22,040
You punched down here, man.

1354
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:23,040
Shit on it.

1355
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:25,480
There was, you'll probably know what I'm talking about.

1356
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:32,600
It was so bad that there was a security upgrade that needed to pass a governance proposal,

1357
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:36,880
but we didn't hit quorum because none of the centralized exchange validators voted.

1358
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,120
So we couldn't pass the security upgrade.

1359
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:41,120
And then-

1360
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:44,360
Was it an SDK chain or is it some other?

1361
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:45,360
Oh yeah.

1362
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:48,720
And then, and then, this is a long time ago, but, and then-

1363
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:49,720
It sounds like Terra.

1364
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:50,720
No, no.

1365
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:55,360
I think most of the validators on Terra were quite active.

1366
01:23:55,360 --> 01:24:03,200
But, and then we had to vote, do another vote, rally the validators, lower the quorum, and

1367
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:04,760
then pass the security upgrade.

1368
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:06,280
It's just do things by the book.

1369
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,840
But the lower quorum means weaker security, but-

1370
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:12,920
I think I remember something like that happening.

1371
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:15,760
It's two syllables.

1372
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:25,320
But, yeah, it's, it's, I, but it's also, and I did hear a lot of these-

1373
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:29,240
The points that some of the centralized exchange validators-

1374
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:33,880
Sorry, centralized exchanges did make revalidators because they didn't want to have that type

1375
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:36,720
of compliance risk.

1376
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:43,520
But I think eventually we will have compliance clarity, let's say in the next five-ish years,

1377
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:48,680
or however many, however long it takes, on the assumption that blockchains do get completely

1378
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:54,200
mass adopted, and then this is the financial technology platform that we will use.

1379
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:58,880
And it's just going to be straight forward from there.

1380
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,440
But, but that's like, that's kind of like the lens that I like to kind of look at it

1381
01:25:03,440 --> 01:25:08,440
from because this is where we assume it will be, and then we, like how do we get there

1382
01:25:08,440 --> 01:25:16,760
is, is that, and I do like value that type of unique specialization that can contribute,

1383
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:17,760
right?

1384
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:19,880
Centralized exchanges are a very critical part of our ecosystem.

1385
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,040
They're not all bad.

1386
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:26,680
And they need to play an active part and role.

1387
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:30,480
So none of you guys can guess it.

1388
01:25:30,480 --> 01:25:33,400
You can DM it in private chat and I'll confirm it tonight.

1389
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:37,480
Fuck, there's so many SDK networks.

1390
01:25:37,480 --> 01:25:39,480
It sounds like Carver, maybe?

1391
01:25:39,480 --> 01:25:40,480
I don't know.

1392
01:25:40,480 --> 01:25:41,480
Carver, they had a lot of fucking-

1393
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:42,480
Ah, fuck, I don't know.

1394
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:52,480
They had a lot of fucking-

1395
01:25:52,480 --> 01:26:18,980
Where the shit is all that trading out?