ending. But here we go. I found it now.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent
Validator teams.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Game of Nodes, the Validator
podcast. This week, we're abandoned by the rest of the
crew. Shilty, Frey and Uncle Dad won't be joining us. They're
all partying or preparing for partying, apparently. However,
the day has been saved by Rama and Bendy, both putting up their
hands and saying, fuck it, the show must go on, sub me and coach.
So here they are. Welcome, guys. And thanks for coming on to save
the stream. And thanks for ruining my morning. I had deleted
the stream schedule and gone on to do other work. But now,
I postponed that to run back for all the fans. Thank you two
guys for joining in the comments, Lil D. So we could
like the one or two viewers that watch religiously every
single week. I think it would be unfair. They wouldn't have
anything to do for their hour and a half. Well, to be fair,
they're now on the stream. So
well, you're right. I wouldn't have had anything to do for an
hour. Yeah. So this is this is my first week of unemployment at
this time of night for a while. So this I can actually join the
stream.
Can you elaborate on the whole unemployment situation,
Bendy?
I mean, like I said, unemployment, I have a full time job, I'm
employed, but I have left the, well, no, actually, I haven't
because it doesn't exist in certain sort of, so I used to
work for Atomic Delirator now. And I was part time there. They've
come to the end of the nine month mandate. And I have decided
not to continue that. They will be definitely looking for a
second term. And to be honest, trying to do two, you know, a
full time job and a part time crypto job that was becoming
increasingly full time wasn't great for my work life balance.
Because it was just turning into a sort of work work balance.
So yeah, I think, and look, they were very good. And they tried
to do some, I know they tried to accommodate me and my lack of
time. But then I was like, well, to be honest, if I'm doing
that, a, it might not be fun for me and be probably isn't the
value for the community. So now I can just ship post on Twitter
and enjoy trying to find air drops. Because I think that's a
way to make it.
Look, all anyone really wants to do in crypto is mine air drops
and shitpost on Twitter. So, you know, in that respect, I think
you've made the right choice.
Yeah, why do I want to think productive, right?
You're missing one. You have to join a cult.
If you if you try to do anything productive, then
inevitably people are gonna take issue with the things that
you've done. So, you know, and then shitpost about you and
then they're having all the funds. So yeah, flip the script,
quit the job, shitpost everyone else.
I mean, like one of the first things I did was I took up took
on a bet with polkajew intern, which is definitely a mistake on
my part.
Yeah, well, what was the bet?
So he posted that he would bet anyone that noble would not
become an ICS chain. And we have now bet a hundred atom on
whether it will or won't before the end of next year.
So which side of that bet do you have?
I'm saying it will be an ICS chain. And he's yeah, well, and he
wrote a very long and detailed explanation for lots of good
reasons why it won't be. And I went and you just had, oh,
Jelena loves Adam.
Pretty much. And also like, you know,
Yelena. Yeah, I'd say Jelena, because I know if she was to
ever watch, she would get really upset that I said, let's let's
let's say Yelena is not watching this fucking show. Probably
got much better shit to do.
I mean, the only thing better than yeah, being on the show is
watching it and, you know, heck, going from the comments. Yeah,
but yeah, my rationale was, they said they're going to assume
that therefore, circle kind of signed off on this and I'm signing
off on it's probably more effort than migrating to ICS.
Like they can unsign off your access to your ward anytime I
highly doubt like just not moving is an issue.
Little step. Maybe.
I just love that Cosmos is like, we went, oh, you know, we can't
have a terror lunar, but let's let the government in. Like, hey,
let's make our primary back token something that's centrally
controlled and overly regulated. Like that's not going to be an
issue in like a year's time after what's happened in the last
few days has been really adopted to like quickly 20 mil so far.
Right. And it's like it's being pushed down everyone's
throats. Like, hey, let's use, you know, this natively issued
centralized currency that is going to apply to every single
regulation that the US puts in. And if you touch it, they will
blacklist your wallet whenever they want. And we think that's
not going to be an issue. Come on, guys.
So I guess we already were really using it though, right? And
like there is that for any, any alternative like we're already
using USDC axel or USDT, which is now carver anyway. So I mean,
but you need a safe haven and they're like the really only
ones that you can
extra through.
Well, it's more like that, you know, you can have decentralized
finance, right? Like you can have alternate stablecoins. None of
them will allow you to like exit through into a bank. Like so it's
it's okay if you happen to keep your currency in crypto. But if
you want to go into your bank account, you have to go through
circle. If they're one of the only issues that will let you take
money out that you can reliably back. So I get that.
I never felt comfortable with the the Terra stablecoin USD. But I
kind of do feel comfortable even though it's a centralized
to shit USDC and USDT like it depends on what kind of level
of crypto maxi you are, I suppose. The concern is more like
after you know, we'll talk about CZ later, but like they're not
going to stop at central exchanges. Like the next 12 to 18
months will be they will be coming down hard on decentralized
finance and dexers and any team that runs it and any currency
that is run on it will be next target. I can guarantee you,
they're not going to stop at centralized exchanges. If you are
a dex team and you're based in America, you're next. They made
that very clear in their announcement and they'll do that
for all three. They're all based in Panama, bro. They're all
based in Panama.
It's more than islands.
For sure. It's based in America.
Well, the devs are there. I don't know.
They're not going to come after like that. They're not going to
come after osmosis. They're going to come after the devs that
built osmosis that are based in America. And like, if you're
not on this, right?
If you're not, if you're not on a non and they know that you're a US
citizen, doesn't really matter where the company is registered,
I don't believe. I mean, like my view is I really don't care
too much about centralized stablecoins in the sense that
pretty much if the government hates crypto, I won't be able to
get any of my money back into a bank account that I can use.
Like if in the UK, if they do that, they can draw up all the
fiat on ramps and off ramps and I won't be, I'll be screwed.
So I kind of, the thing for me is that I sort of assume that
the government will do whatever it wants to do and it won't
really matter whether that's on chain or off chain and that
ultimately crypto will need to interface with centralized things
like governments and need to be able to be compliant.
And I think that that's where someone like we're jumping ahead
to CZ but like that's where Coinbase, I think are basically
right where they are trying to be compliant and they're trying
to be law abiding as much as anyone can tell in that kind
of regulatory environment. How that relates to the kind of
wild west of what happens on chain where things are
decentralized, like there's no bloody case law, nobody knows.
I've got no idea if what I'm doing is correct or not.
All I know is that if I pay my taxes, I probably won't go to prison.
That's kind of our philosophy. We just pay as much tax as we get
and hopefully they leave us alone.
I actually reviewed the Australian crypto regulations and laws
and a lot of it doesn't apply to like businesses that aren't
offering solutions or like ICOs. It's like if you're a business
or an entity pay your tax and you can do whatever you want.
It's like the Australian or currently like unless you're
like offering, unless you're like offering a centralized
exchange or an ICO type solution, then there's additional
regulations that if you're just a business that's like mining
or validating or that sort of stuff or doing solutions, it's
basically like do it, report it, do whatever you want.
I was like, I'll just check. I was like, oh, you know,
bitch shit posting a lot. Are there any marketing regulations
in Australia about crypto? And there's not. It's like, just
pay your tax, bitch, and continue. You're fine.
You're fine. Well, there are still things that would kind of
apply to shit posting and marketing in that if you, and
it's the same as it states, if you buy up a heap of something
and then promote the shit out of it and then dump it, that's
inside a trading still. So deceptive marketing is like what
I read. So it's like the only thing that I could read.
Yeah, they don't take kindly to people who do insider trading
here.
Right, Zach.
Yeah, what's the other one?
If you go to like $5 or it could go to negative $5.
Bullsack?
Bullsack.
Yeah, not second.
Yeah, like telling people when you buy something and that
you bought it here and that it's a good product is not
inside a trading. I'm publicly telling them it's not like I
bought it, sat on it for six months and then went come and
buy this thing and now pump my bags.
So if you tell them like do you tell them the price that you
bought it at and then do you tell them when you dump it or?
Do I have to?
I don't know.
No.
I'm not a marketer.
It's like I have the laws.
Because the name is nutsack and it's hilarious.
I think there's also a thing right which is like so it's not
quite crypto low but in the UK there are things around
reviews. So if you review a product and you are associated
with it then your review is technically in breach of the
rules even if you are genuinely revealing it.
So when I worked for a marketing agency we couldn't put
reviews on pages of shows that we've been to see or anything
like that because we were connected to it and that's
considered to be deceptive even if you gave it a ship review
and invaded it from the start.
You're shorting it.
So that's.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
You just can't touch it.
I'm going to have to go and answer the door.
So this is what happens when we jump in on the slide.
I'll be back in a minute.
I'm leaving it to two Australians to run the show.
Okay.
Now fuck, look at.
What else is being going on this week, Rama?
We've got, I see you've populated some items in the
spreadsheet. I notice you're not in the spreadsheet.
Weirdly though, the fray has just appeared in the
spreadsheet.
So that is.
Oh, okay.
Getting in on the show while he's at a party, huh?
Well, yeah, he's at a gig.
I don't know what gig he's at, but he's at a gig.
His way can't be on the premises.
So yeah.
And Uncle Dad has taken the family on a trip.
So they're out enjoying themselves as well.
And Shiltsie is preparing for a party.
There is Thanksgiving coming up soon in America.
Yeah.
When's that scheduled?
No, my problem is the American thing.
Yeah.
It's within the next week.
I know a few people have been putting Turkey Movies here
and there.
All right, cool.
Turkey Death Day.
Yeah, Turkey Death Day.
I thought Shiltsie wasn't here because he's on strike.
He's on strike?
Yeah.
Well, he's on Relang Strike, right?
Yeah.
First one.
So you meant?
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's dive a little bit further into that.
So my understanding of this whole situation is,
and it's not just 11 to 5, and they're not quitting Relang.
Or not.
That's just quitting.
I said strike.
Yeah.
So he's in the comments.
Hi.
It seems like probably the higher than usual
live view account today is probably because the regular attendees
are probably watching it, even though they said they're doing something else.
So on the bench while you're stuffing the Turkey up the arse.
Right, gotcha.
So the recent Cosmos prop, what is it, 848 or 843 or something like that?
It's like, yeah, it's one of the earlier ones, 848s.
The, you know, oh, let's change a parameter from 0.01 to 0.005
because everyone gets a shit about that, don't they?
So 847 something, which is the reduction in inflation on the inflation one.
What is it?
What we're talking about is proposed by Notional to increase the global fee
minimum gas price.
So there's two.
There's a reduction in inflation plus a increase in gas pricing.
There's more.
So update global fee params to clear the minimum fee message types to avoid peer to
peer spams described in an issue.
So the hub step back, the hub is like quite poorly configured in terms of,
Erdeman, hello, is quite poorly configured.
Just to interrupt Rama.
So for those who don't know Ertaman, who has just joined for those listening,
Ertaman, he is part of the crew at 11 to 5 sent in here to defend themselves.
Probably I'm assuming.
Yeah, I was just saying, it's right.
Thrown into the gauntlet by the, by the boss man.
It's so sorry.
Yeah, please continue, Rama.
Yeah.
So the hub is like quite poorly configured, right?
There's a thing called like the global fee module.
And essentially when it was introduced, they said that everything except for maybe
one message type can have zero gas.
And what that does is open up the hub to like multiple attack vectors via spam and peer to
peer kind of dosing.
So to remediate that, three proposals were put up.
The first one was to like clear out the bypass minimum fee types to make it so there were
no, no message types would be free.
The next one was to update the minimum gas price to 0.005 atoms, which I believe that
one's the issue.
And then the third one was to change the block size from 200 kilobytes to two meg.
And these three proposals were intended to reduce the attack vectors on the hub based
on kind of spam transactions.
The unintended impact of this or unintended, the impact of this is the hub does thousands
of transactions a day because of ICS and routing between various chains that relays went from
paying, I think it was like 0.0002, maybe three atom per transaction to like a 10x or
more increase to 005 atom.
So, you know, your average relay was probably paying five to seven atom a day.
Now they're paying 50.
So like a substantial increase in price and commissions can't cover that.
Profits on the hub don't come anywhere near covering that.
And no one thought to like put in a plan to like maybe create a doubt to fund relays due
to this increased cost.
And the relays just had to bear the brunt of it in the short term.
And for a lot of the teams, like that meant scaling back the amount of transactions they
relay, you know, let some of the bigger relays who have more funding kind of bear the brunt
until other solutions can come in, which, you know, minimum they're going to take two to
three weeks, right?
Because you have to put a prop up on the forum.
It has to pass.
People have to get funded.
AADOW doesn't exist.
So, you know, I think the last time I saw it, there was like thousands of transactions
that were pending for ICS because no one was like willing to relay them, which is not good.
Like you need the transactions to be relayed for ICS.
So yeah, that's like the summary of it.
I just like tongue in cheek of, you know, short see goes on strike because I thought
he would be on the show and it'd be funny for him to come in and have to defend himself.
But we've got Erdeman here instead to try and, you know, protect the business.
So Erdeman, please chime in.
Tell us why I'm wrong and why Lavender 5 is the greatest validating and relaying business
known to man.
And you're not actually going on strike.
You're actually doubling down.
You are going to take over the number one relaying spot of the hub just out of pride
alone.
Yeah, we're on strike forever, probably.
No, I don't think we'll ever take number one spots, basically.
I don't think it makes sense to do, to be honest.
No, we've been sort of focusing or like doubling down on networks and channels that don't have
enough support, sort of like relaying the most obscure channels known to man because
we can bear the infrastructure costs.
Means you do less transactions, but at least the random users on these channels that are
actually very dedicated to either those networks or to using those funds in that specific route
are not stuck.
So it's like more support costs and like hours for random people coming into your Discord
or Telegram DM saying, hey, my funds are stuck.
Please help me and less like optimizing your configuration to relay like 100,000 of packets
between Cosmos Hub and Osmosis or ICS chains.
But yeah, I just checked the balance sheet on that SmartStake dashboard, which it has
a lot of shitty data, but it also has like some good data.
At least it's helpful in many ways because you can quickly check who is like operating
specific channels at least to a certain degree.
And besides like Pocachu, who for some reason has 180 atom in his wallet and crypto crew
who gets paid, it seems like basically everybody shut off their relay or like almost everybody
has like a few atom in there, probably just like flush some channels and then fuck off
again.
But at least like Crohn's Nest, I heard stop the relay or we like let our wallet run out.
Basically I probably fund it back up again today or tomorrow for doing some items.
Cosmos Spaces is out, who is one of the biggest relayers.
ICS Hero is out, who is normally transferring 150,000 packets a month on Cosmos.
He's like the biggest hub relayer besides Crypto Crew who has like a grant.
So yeah, but anyway, we're all chatting in back channels and like creating our coop
are really proper cartel, stop IBC and then the cartel can really play.
Actually having a cartel would probably be quite good for performance.
I mean, if it actually was a cartel, things would be a lot better.
You know, a benevolent cartel is what we need or a cult depending on you know, I think
cartels won't make you rich, cults will make you rich.
I think you know, cults will make you pretty rich and it will make you like, oh, like
I'm happy but a cult, you know, that's fucking money, you know.
Hey guys, I just need to drop out here for a second and come back.
Hopefully that doesn't mean that this stream ends.
Don't need to announce your exit mate, we're fine here.
Thank you.
If it does, it's the shortest appearance of any guest ever.
Well, at least they let you speak, I mean, well, we let you speak.
I mean, normally the standoff is on the background just waiting for like 40 minutes.
Actually, if you're there listening, can you just jump into the stream for a second so
I can leave and come back and hopefully it won't disconnect everyone.
You don't have to go up live, just get in the waiting room so I can leave.
I think what the relayers should do is they should petition Notional because Notional
did this without any consultation with the relays and the impact and the intended costs.
They should petition Notional to fund your relaying services for the period of time until
you get your proposal up to fund you a million dollars a year to relay for the hub as a collective.
The other side of it is of course, Notional is being paid by the hub.
They should be relaying.
Yeah, they're relayers.
They're going to be relaying.
You know, they're busy doing other things, working on other projects.
Some chains need linting.
You can say things now, Nae Nae Dao.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah, I mean, the punches are, I can stop pulling now that I'm not actually connected to anything
and can just say what I think.
So basically, I think this whole thing is really shit.
I think that it is shocking the way the whole security risk to the hub has been handled.
I think Notional have been typically awful in their approach to handling it too.
And they're kind of overly aggressive approach to fixing stuff has obviously broken something
to a much worse degree.
And the collateral damage is just terrible.
The idea that consumer chains and ICS just break under there, like is just shocking.
The fact that nobody thought this through from any team.
So I include here informal.
Everyone who voted yes on this proposal, which I guess includes the relays that are now crying
about this, everyone's done a bad job and everyone should be upset and ashamed of themselves
because it is a complete fuck up.
I will push back here just a little bit.
There needed to be something that caused everyone.
He's been having this all week with his headset.
It's been expensive.
I love it.
He comes in, he's got like his really punchy point to make.
He's like, I agree, but and then.
So I'm going to guess that he's going to say that it needed a moment like this to make
everyone realize how fucked up the whole situation was with relays and their costs.
And this is ultimately going to be a good thing because it's going to mean we fix a
problem that we've been kind of getting away with for a while.
And I do agree with that.
But I also think that unless we fundamentally fix the way that these kind of approaches
are done and the kind of approach to decentralized sort of upgrades on the hub and kind of making
it work properly, it's shocking the amateur.
And that needs to not, it can't happen like that.
I absolutely agree with that, that it's totally amateur for sure.
But yeah, collective bargaining needed to happen.
And the only way we can make it happen is by kind of forcing everyone's hand, right?
Yeah.
And I think that we are just quickly, I totally understand.
I understand relaying like I've known like how, you know, who pays for it and how it
works for a while now.
I think what, you know, let's get to the root of this is fundamentally the people that
build and manage IBC have dropped the ball on this for what, like two, three years now.
Like let's introduce Packet Forward Middleware and these other IBC features that the devs
want to build rather than focusing on the thing that should be built, which is self-relaying.
Right?
And why are relayers and like validators who are relaying and controlling the channels
responsible for paying the ship that is a service that users use, right?
Every single chain pays some relayer thousands of dollars every single month to manage like
a relaying channel.
Like Osmosis does it, Cosmos Hub does it.
I'm sure like, you know, Kajira through the Senate and all that.
So someone's paying for these relayers to be open and for the transactions to occur.
Users aren't paying it.
No chance.
Like they're paying it out of their token value.
No doubt.
Like why isn't the number one priority taking this service away from centralized hands in
validators and putting it in wallets and UIs that users can relay their own packets and
pay their own transaction fees?
That should be the number one thing to make IBC actually decentralized and a service that
is actually a public good rather than a service that's managed by individuals at their own
cost and expense and like something that's critical to the entire existence of IBC reliant
upon individuals paying for it.
Like out of their pocket.
It's dumb.
Like it just shows like how Cosmos has a development organization and entity and not just the hub
like a whole thing.
It's just like so backwards in their approach to let's bring in all these features instead
of fixing the fundamental core thing that is if I want to relay a packet, I could I
should be able to do that in my wallet.
And like apparently we're supposed to have this functionality like years ago, but it's
just fundamentally broken the thing that they built.
You can't upgrade IBC channels like it doesn't work from what I hear.
But let's move forward and build this other shit instead of fixing something that you
know is core to the infrastructure that we use every single day.
I think that's a pretty hard take and I don't know what I necessarily agree.
I agree that a lot of that function need to be there.
I don't agree that the team is distracted with other things.
I think there's there's so much push for like for relayers wanting to be able to use
it as a profitable business venture that it would just be a low priority to use it as
a wallet.
That's what I've heard many times from from several different teams is that that's the
goal.
Right.
And so like I see what you're saying and that it should be a wall should should relay
for itself.
But if there's a lot of pressure.
Yeah, I get what you're saying right.
Like IBC as a protocol should not be pressured by teams who want to make money.
Like that is so fucking dumb.
Like I'm a relaying service provider.
I get paid thousands of tens of thousands of dollars a month for providing relaying services
for a handful of chance.
I'm pressuring the IBC team to not implement features because I want to line my pockets.
What the fuck are we doing?
I just think you know what he gets paid that amount.
If they do.
Yeah, they do.
They must.
I know teams that get paid tens of thousands of dollars a month to really have a very nice
agreement.
But I wouldn't say that standard.
Like maybe.
I don't know.
Appliers for sure.
Right.
But I think it's a service, right?
And I get it.
But it's a service that's not needed if the tech was built, how it should be built.
It sort of doesn't matter whether someone's doing this and being paid a lot of money and
making a profit or whether someone's doing this and making a big loss on it and that's
enhancing their validated reputation and therefore they get delegations and whatever.
And you know, the fundamental thing is that this is core to making our techs at work.
And there is no obvious sustainable route for it to be there other than altruism from
someone.
Someone should, someone is paying who isn't the person using that service.
And we haven't figured out a way to make that work.
And then we have, I've forgotten the exact prop number, but obviously the hub passed
a prop ages ago.
So it'll be in sub 100 prop on being a melting hub, right?
And I know, that's my dear close to your heart as well.
And you've tried to get some energy behind it.
But like, actually, that kind of thing is where once you have 1000 IBC chains with,
you know, you're not going to like the thing that Erdemen was talking about, like, you
know, Erdemen was talking about connecting unusual chains to each other, right?
Because someone wants to move some lump to Desmos or something, you know, like, like
take two ghost chains and move some tokens between them, right?
So there is no reason for that for a relay to exist there.
We can route that and just, that can be okay.
And there's lots of this kind of stuff and it would make the thing more efficient, but
fundamentally there needs to be a business model underneath it that makes it sustainable
so that someone is, it's built in or you're paying it out, you know, it's paid out of
taxation or it's paid from your TXV or whatever it is, but it needs to be sustainable.
And then it becomes a market where relays compete and the person who can optimize the
best and do it, you know, for the cheapest is going to make the much money or whatever
it is, right?
Like that's how IBC can scale.
But what we have at the moment is some sort of weird mix of like subsidy from foundations,
subsidy from, let's say, in pockets and kind of marketing costs or genuine altruism because
they believe in IBC.
Because that's what a lot of people did in the early days, right?
Like it's not, it's not a good place to be in.
Yeah, so I'm not sure what solutions seem like just to kind of...
Oh, no, I've got no idea of the solution.
I'm just saying the peculiar news article.
The minimum fee is now like across the board.
So to do a transaction on the hub, you've got to pay a minimum of 0.05 Adam regardless
of the transaction type, which is great because it addresses, you know, to an extent, you
know, your pockets now have to be, you know, 10 times bigger to attack the hub, which is
good.
But in terms of the relays outside of like large delegations from ICF or, you know, direct
funding from the community pool for the relays, there's no real solution for this.
And you know, then you get into like collective bargaining, you know, if someone's providing
the relaying service, but not part of that group, how do they get paid?
Who gets paid how much?
You know, is there now competition because, you know, someone's relaying more transactions
than the other so they should get paid more, etc.
Right?
You just kind of get into that kettle of fish and it's all great until someone's
else is making potentially more money than the other person and then whatever.
But again, kind of comes back to relays shouldn't be so reliant for the service to work.
Like if relays actually went on strike, which I think would be quite hilarious, watch how
quickly people jump up and down to like get that service fixed.
Well, when when conflict threatened to go on strike, I don't think they ever actually
went on strike.
They got paid pretty quick and they got paid by the hub that isn't even a direct beneficiary
of Cosmos and directly relaying the hub, the hub massively benefits from IBC as does every
chain.
Like the whole the whole reason that we're all in Cosmos, I imagine is IBC and I know
that I checked, you know, this show is talked about IBC is the only thing in Cosmos that
you can pretty much bet on, except that you can't because there's no way to monetize it.
So it's interesting thought that I just had and you know, always, you know, looking on
the positive side of things like I do, relays go on strike, all of them.
ICS packets aren't relayed.
You would get splashing events on consumer chains because the only way that they do IBC
like how you do uptime for the consumer chains in the hub is via IBC.
And if you don't receive those packets in time, it would determine that that's a you
have a need to go for it.
So you'd still need a governance proposal to pass to slash them.
Yeah, that's that's fine.
No, we've not decided because we haven't bargaining because we haven't got to the point where
that becomes automated yet, but we will get there.
So there's a link.
So for the collective bargaining people, there is a limited window where you can do this
without getting slash yourself.
Wait, wait, it requires I didn't realize that it requires IBC in order to run providers.
All that's communicated to IBC.
The entire way that ICS works is you your your client update, IBC transactions determines
your uptime on the consumer and provider chain.
So if that packet's not relayed, then I don't know fundamentally like if there was a delay
in IBC, would it just relay the transactions and then determine that you had uptime?
But that's how it works is every block it sends like every block there's a transaction
in there for provider consumer update, and it has like the corresponding block height
to say that you've got uptime on the consumer chain.
I think you might be saying the quiet part out loud about the real costs of ICS.
It isn't about running one additional shitty node under your desk so that you can have
neutron there is the relays yet again, who are getting screwed and nobody's talking about
it.
Yeah, I didn't realize that.
I think that kind of really twists the knife in a bit.
Yeah, so and they were free before.
So you could do you could IBC transfer those consumer provider updates with zero gas because
they were as part of the exceptions.
The fundamental issue is that everything except for like maybe one or two transactions was
set in the bypass.
So when they configured it was just like everything but this is bypassed.
Now that that list has been cleared everything has a cost rather than IBC client updates
or you know, whatever they are provider consumer client updates being free.
And the reason for that is like even those are an attack vector.
So if a particular validator wanted to go rogue, they could spam client updates and take
down the network.
So had to introduce a fee there, but you know, is the fee too high for people who have supposedly
trusted and have their reputation and atoms on the line?
I think the other thing that's interesting here is whether you do actually need to get
to the point where you just have permissioned IBC channels so that you actually have a permissioned
IBC channel to do that particular thing.
And you're saying, look, this is this is how it works.
And there is a cut as what you're kind of saying, Ram is obviously between slashing and social
consensus.
There is a sort of there's a sort of solution to the attack vector because one of the things
that I think people like to think of security in absolute terms things are secure or they're
not secure and actually it's very much a spectrum.
Attacks just get more expensive or they just require you to be more powerful.
And I think a lot of proof of stake is based around kind of economic game theory and it
kind of just ignores the social consensus side of it, which is ultimately probably more
powerful and then overlaps into legal in the real world, right?
And I think that, you know, actually thinking these things through pragmatically will let
us get to better solutions, we don't have to be perfect solutions.
And I think often one of the failings that we have is either things are not through
the walkthrough at all, and then they happen, or things are thought through quite a lot
and then people pick holes in them.
And then they don't happen.
And I would rather have the second where you have something with a few holes in it that's
been scrutinized somewhat and the risks are known and people can make an informed decision
as opposed to what we have at the moment, which is you throw something up, it sounds
common sense, everyone just fights for it.
All right, I think we covered that one off pretty well.
It sounds like IBC, the lifeblood, the core of Cosmos is not without its challenges too.
Schiltzee, how's the chicken stuffing going?
The rooster, the kettle, what do they call those fucking ducks?
Turkeys.
Turkey, yeah.
Yeah, how's the turkey stuffing going?
Did you shove a beer can up there?
So I'm not doing that part of the party prep.
I'm making other things like I'm a big fan of cookies, so I make a huge batch of cookies
for everyone.
Oh, I need to make good cookies too.
Did you have some of my cookies?
You did.
Yeah, so I'm making a lot of those cookies and it's not happening at my house, so like
I have to prep for the travel bits and yeah.
Oh, I want to make hash cookies inside your own home so we can make it someone else's
house.
Yes, exactly.
When I visited Schiltzee, I was just handed with coffee and cookies the whole time and
jerky.
He lives just around the corner from a jerky factory, which is delightful.
A turkey's not a thing in Australia.
Sorry, I think I just did some kind of doxing.
Oops.
A turkey's not a thing in Australia, so I was just wondering why you didn't know the
name of the bird.
Look, they're not very common, like you certainly won't see one on the street.
Really?
Yeah.
You don't see one on the street in the UK, but I still know what they call it.
You infrequently see one at a large wood or forestry type park.
There's one near me where there's a bunch of birds around and you can go and sit and you
will occasionally see a little turkey walking around with its little napsack on its chin.
But if you go into the bush, you're not just going to see a bunch of turkeys cruising around.
We don't go out there and don't have a turkey hanging over your shoulder walking home, ready
to stuff it and eat it.
Well, there are bush turkeys, though.
Those are weird looking.
They have a yellow scrotum around their neck.
Your shit just went off again.
All right.
Do we move on?
Speaking of yellow scrotums, do we move on to CZ?
Okay.
Do you want to announce the news?
Yeah.
So our big boy, Four, steps down as the CEO after pleading guilty.
Hang on.
Why do you have Four in there?
I don't get that.
Is that some sort of joke?
Have you not seen all of the images of CZ?
Oh, right.
Because he does the thing.
He already tweets where he's like, Yeah.
Yeah.
Is that supposed to mean Four?
Well, I tweeted yesterday because I thought it was kind of funny.
Like he's always been talking about Four, right?
We've now had the Four.
We've had Dope One, Sam, Bankman, Fried, Suzu, and now CZ.
Four.
All of them go on a jail and hang out with each other.
All sued, all gone to jail, all took down their great products.
The Four's done.
That's it.
The bull market begins.
I wonder where that prison is.
Is that in the Caimans?
They're all indifferent.
Well, Dope One's in Montenegro or something where he tried to like use a fake passport.
So some of them are in prison at the moment, are they?
Do is.
Yep.
Do definitely is.
They're in prison, I think in Singapore, for memory.
Sam's been like house arrest inside a mansion somewhere.
One of them got out, right?
And then CZ's not going to prison.
CZ will go to prison just not for a while.
Yeah.
He paid a big fine and stepped down as CEO.
It's like a bargaining agreement with the government.
Yeah, but then wouldn't he, it wasn't that so he didn't go to prison?
Well, yeah, that's the agreement now until they find more charges that they can send
into prison for.
Well, it depends.
It depends on how much you think BlackRock are just, you know, clearing it, clearing
out the market so they can have their Bitcoin.
I reckon if that bird that was in with the bloody old mate, Cialty.
Caroline.
Caroline, yeah, she got off.
I reckon CZ can manage it.
Maybe.
They didn't seem to have anything.
It depends if he can implicate anyone like she got off because of the intel she's got.
So if CZ decides to throw Brian from Cornbase under the bus, I'm sure he'll get off.
I think they're like different scenarios though, right?
Like Doquan and your man fucking what's his name?
The funny looking one.
They like had.
Bankman fried.
Yeah, bankman fried.
They all had things that just felt like, you know, they were running Ponzi's basically
that collapsed.
Like Binance weren't really doing that.
The key here is that if so long as your Ponzi doesn't collapse, you're fine.
If your Ponzi collapses, Bernie made off, etc.
Then you're screwed.
Yeah, as long as USDT doesn't tank, it's all good.
I mean, that's the thing if Justin Tron goes to prison, then that's five and Rama's whole
joke is ruined.
Yeah, it's over.
Yeah, like back to the bear market we go.
So we've got one over between four and five.
That's it.
It's just protect our boy Justin.
All right.
All of our bags.
When did we exit the bear market Rama?
Oh, like two, three months ago.
No, we're still flatline.
We're not.
I think as soon as you started paying Rama, he exited the bear market.
Because of our riveting news.
Yeah.
That was the turning point.
You might be right.
You heard it here first folks.
We front run the bull market.
So I mean, like, you know, certainly I'm getting bull market vibes with the amount of airdrops
that have been thrown around in the last week.
Notably, Pith, some bull stack that I found in my wallet randomly.
What else was there?
There was another TIA.
Yeah.
So TIA was a big one as well.
And I, you know, back on relays, some of those relays did pretty darn well out of that TIA
airdrop reading some of the comments on Twitter and getting at my calculator, like to the
tune of two to 300,000 US dollars.
So I think like the TIA airdrop has been pretty good for those guys, you know, shooting
that.
Also, if you had a lot of commits on get on in the right get hubs, regardless of the quality
of those commits, you may have done quite well.
Oh yeah.
I'm going around doing, I'm doing linting, I'm doing spell checks.
Go more study everywhere.
But if you're doing that, right, I'm just doing it.
But if you're doing that, what's notional doing?
Front run the run run run just run around the the the get hubs and then find the the
go file and then just start adding point zero point zero point one to everything that you
see and then just try to build this.
If it builds, if it builds, then I can send it.
Yeah, start adding copy chat GPT, add comments for what this does, merge it on everything.
Like you need comments on your code boys.
You can't, you know, really, this is the real alpha for airdrop farming, right?
Is that as airdrocks, you can't you can't just stake out them anymore.
You have to you have to, you know, get in the get hub and really, really knuckle down.
Rama, I'm of the firm belief that commenting code is pandering to champs who can't code.
I think the fray would disagree with you, right?
He's talked a lot about his love of commenting and it's almost like his notes to himself,
right?
Well, he charges by the hour too.
Well, I wonder, he was either that he's on an hourly rate or he's a chump who can't
code.
It's one or the other, right?
Well, I mean, presumably you can understand your own code or is he like hammering the
chumps to to put in a comment so that he can understand their shit?
No, I think he's commenting on his own stuff so that he can understand it later.
But what I would say is how is still not working.
So, you know, probably a chump.
I mean, just commenting code that doesn't work with this doesn't work yet is like one
way of going about it, I suppose.
Yeah.
So, PIF, on PIF, like kind of crazy, huh?
Like it's just a useless oracle token launched at like five billion fully diluted value,
like not listed on any reasonably sized exchange and it is on Binance and goes up like 50%.
Oh, so it did get listed on Binance, did it?
Yeah, they're on Binance Curbs now.
Because I noticed it had gone up today in my little walleye here.
So yeah, I mean, did we even know this was coming?
It would have been nice to have known so I could have farmed it.
But luckily, I used that Lovanna on a couple of different wallets for various different
reasons.
And I got a couple of little airdrops from PIF, which was nice.
Yeah.
And Rama, I know you've been doing a bit of playing with the Lovanna as well, right?
Yeah, I got three wallets.
Just from trading on Lovanna, like I use like my public Commonwealth wallet that I always
like test and play around with.
I always like do that first because if there's ever anything like Dom or whatever, it just
like takes a couple of hundred dollars at most that I have on that wallet.
So I test everything with that.
I got like a couple of thousand PIF just from minor trading and testing on Mars.
And then I was trading on Lovanna with my ledger, which I found to be a real pain in
the ass because it's like 26 clicks to approve a transaction.
So then I moved that funds into a hot wallet to trade with because the ledger was too annoying.
So I ended up getting it on that wallet too.
And then I think I just had, it was like, I was mucking around with like a bot or something
to like open and close positions on Lovanna.
So I moved some like a small amount of funds to another wallet just to test if I could
do it via CLI and execute the smart contract.
And I got a couple of thousand just for testing it there.
But like the other wallets that I actually traded with, it was like 4.1K PIF or something
like that.
I was like, yeah, I got it on Neutron as well from doing some Mars stuff on Neutron because
it was, there was a period of time where it was profitable to, oh, how did it work?
You deposited the SD atom on Osmosis.
You borrowed some USDC and then you could lend that on Neutron.
And for some reason that just printed money for you because the ratios were just way out.
And so I did that for a bit.
And then I made a lot more from the PIF air drop than that little bit of farming did for
me.
So, but I made, I made a mistake of telling my wife just how much the air drop was worth.
So all of that's come straight out of crypto and into the app.
I basically fell off the sofa when I was like, because I was just like trying to, I went,
oh, you know, fire up a VPN and claim this, claimed it.
And then I was like, that, these 30, it was like 31 cents a token or whatever.
And I kind of just said it out loud and then was like, oh, shit.
Now I have, now all of this has to come out of the app.
And but it's gone on Black Friday stuff and I'm going to be very comfortable.
So you're serious when you replied to my tweet that you just went to Black Friday, lingerie?
I mean, some of it will go, some of it will be Christmas presents.
Black Friday lingerie.
I got mine.
It was my first experience in exposure to Solana.
It was actually a really good experience.
I could never had a wallet or anything.
Creating a web wallet was really easy, straightforward.
I just got a friend to send me like a tiny bit of gas to claim it and send it.
The transaction speeds, he was like sent.
I checked my wallet.
It was there.
There was like almost no delay.
It was basically incident.
And then I claimed it, it was already in my wallet.
And then I sent it to Maxi.
And even that was quick.
It was like maybe a minute or two to get to Maxi.
It was really quick.
It was a minute to coinbase.
Yeah.
Really quick.
Yeah.
It's like, it was, you know, maybe a minute or two to confirm 100, you know, whatever
they, however they do it, 100 confirmations.
And then it was there.
And then I just instant dumped it and bought Zephyr.
I bought Zephyr.
But the, I think the thing for me with it was, yeah, so I had to, it took a bit long because
I had to go and get some Solana for gas and do that.
But I had a good experience.
How did you get your gas?
I bought it on a, I had a bit of money on a sex and just swapped it and sent it to the
wallet address.
How much was the fee to like send your Solana to your pennies?
But the minimum I could send was like five bucks.
So yeah.
So I spent five bucks and then was just like, no, it's fine.
And now I'm going to get back.
It's not a problem.
I think the mixy withdrawal fees are quite high, Rama.
Not if you withdraw, yeah, but I just withdraw like Adam or whatever and then I borrowed
some gas from Uncle Badd.
I was in bed, right?
I was, you know, winding down ready to go to sleep at like 1.30 AM or something.
And I just got a DM from a friend though, like, did you claim your pit there?
Drop it's trading at like 34 cents.
I was like, I claimed it.
I said, my, the only reason I got it, because I wasn't, I wasn't going to be bothered.
I was like, because in, yeah, you need to, they can't distribute to the UK.
So fortunately I was in Rome very briefly at the time that I claimed it.
So, but that happened because my dad sent me a message asking about a VPN for when they're
going away in a few weeks and he wants to watch some television while he's away, watch
a bit of football.
And they want to VPN and I asked a friend just for a recommendation for him.
And while I was doing that, I was like, Oh, by the way, can I just borrow your login for
something briefly?
And if it hadn't been for my dad, what's up in here, I probably wouldn't have been bothered
and then I wouldn't have had a couple of thousand dollars for nothing.
I did, I did contemplate holding some Solana, but as I say, I told my wife what the amount
was.
So there we go.
I need to start using multiple wallets though.
That's the reality rather than just one.
Yeah, you got to spread it around, man.
It's just so much admin.
You got to write down 24 words so many times.
Can I really be bothered?
I just used hot wallets.
I figured out the trick to make them without having to remember the, you know, seed trays.
You just create a new wallet and then, no, yeah.
So you create a new wallet, you copy all of the, like, you know how it makes you like
pick out words and then put it in?
So you just create a new wallet, copy all those words that come up and then get out
of that and restore a wallet and just paste them in there.
Then you don't have to do like that picking out the word thing.
So I've got all these wallets.
I don't know the seed phrase to.
I think it's an interesting approach to Opset, right?
Where as long as you don't have a lot of money in any of them, it doesn't really matter.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, they're just like burners that you're like, you need to do something and
you're like, I don't, that seems a bit sketchy.
I might not use that with my wallet.
So you have a little burn wallet, you do the thing, then you like delete it and then.
I just have a, I've got a Python script and I just change like whatever chain I want and
then I just go generate me 10 wallets and then it spits it out to a text file with the
memos.
Sorry, the mnemonics and then I just copy pasted it into Kepler.
So you are a developer of some description, right?
Rama?
I developed just not blockchain.
Yeah.
So what, what, like what languages do you know?
Obviously Python.
JavaScript, C, HTML, enough.
Oh yeah?
So like web dev type stuff.
Oh, wow.
I can get myself into and out of trouble for the most part.
I can get myself into trouble and can't get myself out.
Like I know enough just to be dangerous enough to break all my stuff.
I've done, you know, I've done development for, you know, various types of development
for 15 or years, just haven't got into like Rust and go so far.
JavaScript I can get, you know, course and pain.
I understand languages that is don't, I haven't spent the time to fundamentally learn them.
So whenever I review the code, I can kind of see what it does and how it's structured.
But yeah, just have no care to actually get in and do a hardcore dev rather focus on like
process and advice.
Go, like go is just, well, in Rust.
Like those ones that just have tons of files for like and pointing to themselves all over
the place.
They're a little bit painful for me to go through and try to glean what they do.
But anyway, so what's the Sam Altman news, Rama?
Yeah.
So I thought I saw how much Frey had about Sam last week.
I don't know if they got touched on, but Mr. Altman, the CEO, ex CEO and CEO of Open
AI, he was unanimously fired by the board over the weekend, unceremoniously shafted from
his own organization from the board because of whatever reasons.
And then there was like massive outrage and their share prices tanked by the looks of
things and employees were like exiting left, right and center because he was like the visionary
right.
And then within like hours of sacking him and publicly announcing it, like all of the
board were like apologizing, you know, Oh, we love the company.
We didn't mean to cause this much harm.
And then a day or two later, like Microsoft announces Sam as like the head of the new
O AI department of Microsoft, basically giving him like unlimited budget and like hiring
a bunch of the people that were leaving open AI.
Wow.
And then how much of Open AI?
So much of my open AI to Microsoft own because they're a big investor in it, right?
Like 50% or something.
Yeah, very, very large holder.
And then, yeah, so they announced that Microsoft is like putting him in.
And the funny thing is like in the Microsoft position, he would basically be like the liaison
between the Microsoft AI team and open AI.
He would be in charge of open AI and the interactions between Microsoft anyway.
And then yesterday, the board, a bunch of the board stepped down.
There's a new board appointed of like three people and they've rehired Sam as the CEO.
It's like everyone's like coming back and Microsoft are happy with it.
Do we know how much the Twitch guy got paid for his 24 hours as Chief Exec?
Yeah.
Did they even sign the paper?
He must have made bank on a day's work.
Like if they were in the contract there for money, right?
And it was actually signed with no like termination or, you know, a cooldown period.
This has made millions of dollars just for rocking up like the shortest CEO in almost
history, not even 24 hours.
Probably didn't even get into the office.
Probably just signed and then got asked immediately.
Yeah.
I mean, the whole thing is so funny.
But what's also funny is I was saying there's a telegram chat I'm in and there's a few notable
Cosmos personalities in there.
And what was funny is they were comparing it to the outsting of Jake one and how that
was and kind of assigning each other roles as to who they were in this, you know, which
of the players in this they were.
And it was, it's very funny because yeah, I mean, but like I get it because they were
they all like it's a big part of their lives and they obviously a lot of trauma in something
like that, I guess would be the point where putting it so it colors a lot of what they
see everywhere.
But I think like it just goes to show like because the question I've got is what was
he sacked for?
Because basically they said, he didn't really tell us the truth.
And so we sacked him.
And then he's been reinstated and you just think what are these skeletons that are there
that caused them to sack him in the first place?
Because at some point they'll come out.
Yeah.
He's probably done something that was not very woke or something like that.
I don't know.
We don't actually know.
There was like allegations around like, you know, his sister and all these weird things.
Yeah, like legit.
Yeah.
There's people saying like she's posted like tweets and stuff like asserting that, you
know, her brothers or other people have like done bad things.
And obviously, you know, what coach everyone just jumped to the conclusion that of course
she's right and it's true, you know, guilty before proven innocent, etc.
But then like the board obviously can't come out and say that.
So they're like, you know, we've lost confidence in his, you know, approach and vision.
The board was very much of the opinion that they should like take a step back and like
slow down on AI rather than like pushing forward and being as adventurous as they currently
are.
Who knows what the truth is.
But like, I always refer back to Lord Elon's tweet of like the most entertaining outcome
is the most likely.
And that was literally the most entertaining outcome.
Like, so I didn't, I did enjoy the whole thing about he will go to any lengths to avoid using
Microsoft Teams.
Yeah, man, I hate Microsoft Teams as well.
It sucks.
I use it daily.
I like it though.
No.
So the daily part of my life as well.
And it's used a lot more at my current employer than it was used at my previous employer.
This one just used it to cause and this one's like calls plus tap like messaging nonstop.
Yeah.
This is like a document repository to like integrates with like file hosting solutions
where you integrate with customers and like have collaborative chats and teams and that
sounds like such pain.
The like, it should be just a chat only thing.
Like I don't see why it needs to have like files and stuff integrated it, not even chat,
just have a video thing.
Like I like meat is the best one out of all of them.
It does its job and it does its job well.
You know, you can just jump in, jump out.
No problems.
You can, it's not a frigging app and you can just share your screen on different tabs
that you have open all that stuff.
It's, it just works.
And like the Microsoft one, I just have problems with no end, especially if I don't want to
install the app in trying to like actually share documents and tabs and stuff that I'm
working on or like what I do a lot in meetings is have meeting minutes on the screen and
do the meeting minutes as we have the meetings saves the whole rigmarole afterwards where
you do the back and forth.
Can't do that a lot of the time with Microsoft teams because on Mac it just doesn't really
work that very well.
So yeah.
Although like Word and Excel are getting better and better on Mac.
I don't really, I used to have to run two laptops to have one running bloody windows
just to use Office and another one with Mac because it works better for everything else
other than Office or CAD if you need to use that.
But like, yeah, that was a huge pain.
So then I just pulled the trigger and just went full time Mac.
And I say that's my last thing that is just doesn't work very well is meat.
But I also noticed that the Outlook version of, I'm sorry, the Mac version of Outlook
when you drag and drop messages out of there, it saves it in a with a different extension.
So if you send, like if you drag an email outright to a file and then drop it into an
email and send it to someone on Windows, they can't open the bloody thing because it's a
different extension.
It's a different format.
Like why not use the same format?
Makes no sense.
This is as interesting as when we do the episode about spinning up a holiday.
So nothing wishing you wrong.
All right.
Sorry.
No one cares about my office problems.
Oh, you didn't like the Mac.
You didn't like the episode of the, I mean, I watched the whole thing because I'm the
most dedicated viewer, but, but like, you know, it was a struggle.
Yeah.
I think the way I did a struggle to set up a validator was pretty funny.
Doing it that way is definitely the slow way of doing it.
Like ordinarily you just press go on Ansible and then come back in five minutes and it's
done.
That, that would have been a better episode.
Thank you for your feedback.
I have 18 months later.
I think I gave the feedback pretty directly at the time as well to be fair.
But you know, we haven't, you guys haven't done it since.
So I take it that the thing can take on board.
Well, we were going to do a refresher and do a consumer chain.
Well, it would be interesting because Shonsi doesn't know how they work.
No, I didn't do it.
It's a, I tell you what, it's been, it's been nice avoiding all of the Adam drama, never
having spun up a Adam validator, not having to care about any of that at all has been
just probably the highlight of my career in Devils.
848 was a contributing factor to me just thinking, oh fuck it and leaving.
I'm, I'm, you know, the last news topic we can avoid if we like, the only thing I will
raise is like the last week and a half of not being involved in Cosmos and governance
drama and focusing on changing a parameter from point one to point two or the inverse
is, is exactly what epitomizes summarizes why Cosmos tokens severely lag behind anything
else in the crypto sphere in terms of price appreciation.
And it's because people legitimately do not give a fuck about governance and the parameters
on the chain and funding people out of the community pool.
What they want to do is they want to get away from the fucking nine to five feet job, come
into crypto and have some fun and invest in tokens that are going to go up and not have
to deal with all the drama.
It's taken me a while to realize, but that's like fundamentally what it is like Cosmos
has good tech.
Don't talk about the tech.
Don't talk about the governance in the drama.
Talk about how the tech is going to make people fucking rich and people will come and invest.
The ideal thing is that like, if you could align it so that 25% of people in Devsyn Cosmos
built fun casinos and roulette wheels and then pumped that money into the 75% that are building
functioning tech and IBC and doing all the interesting nerd stuff, but they weren't allowed
to speak to anyone.
That would be the ideal scenario.
And to be honest, that's how Web 2 works.
Every employment contract needs a gag clause.
I'm almost aligning with Jay more and more every day, like more NDAs are needed for employees,
like to the point where it's literally a gag order if you are employed by any development
team in Cosmos.
You're just not allowed to have a social media account, not allowed to have alt accounts.
If you're caught, you don't get fired.
You get locked into a dungeon where you only have access to GitHub and no other websites.
Introduce the great firewall of China inside development organizations.
You get locked into a dungeon where you only have access to BFOT to try and survive.
You can escape your way out of that financially and you can open a Twitter account.
I genuinely, let's just crack open that GitHub, move it over from Juno to Neutron and have
some fun.
What?
It's closed source.
I don't think they open sourced it.
Did they not open source it?
Damn it.
I could message him.
He's still on Discord.
I could message him to open source it.
Oh, the console thing?
Yeah.
Just play with it again on Neutron.
It's going to be different this time.
Well, it's been on Chihuahua since then.
It's never stopped.
It was like a subset.
It was like a Fortis light.
Then they introduced the Ash thing that White Whale forked and introduced on their chain
as the furnace on a whale-oriented chain, which makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, but I spoke to him.
I'm pretty certain that he's moved on from Cosmos.
He's doing other languages and helping out with other chains because it was an experiment.
It was fun.
Maybe he got the data that he wanted from it.
I think that obviously now you look back and you just go, well, that was all very silly.
But at the time it was a lot of fun.
I think it speaks to what you were talking about, where people want to enjoy their experience
and try to make a bit of money.
Or at least enjoy losing money.
I'm always, maybe, but I'm really shocked that anyone is able to lose money in blockchain.
It seems really easy if you're not greedy just to profit.
I don't know if that's just me being vanilla as a friend of mine or to me the other day.
You're definitely vanilla.
Somehow, somehow, somehow.
You either want to get your money rich or you just want to be here for 10 years.
I don't think that the being here for 10 years is great for your mental health.
The only way to make your money is to gamble.
To gamble, you've got to do dumb shit, put a bunch of money into a shit coin that you
have no idea about like Fortis or like fucking Zephyr or Harry Potter or Osama, Barma, Hancock,
Innu.
That's how you get fucking rich.
It's literally gambling.
Everyone knows it, but that's the way to do it.
You've only got so much time to do it, the longer you're here, the less chances of you
actually making it are and the more your mental health can be impacted.
I think that's an interesting take because I feel like personally I'm probably up 5,
6x, something like that.
Yeah, it depends how much you're invested.
Yeah, I never put a lot in and I'm not counting the salary that I took out.
But just in terms of, yeah, I mean, airdrops and not being dumb and selling Juno for Atom
and things like that, just sensible moves and not being greedy.
I think, so like the AI data stuff, I count very differently because that was like me trying
to do something positive and trying to help.
Maybe it did or didn't, I'm not entirely sure.
Probably did.
But I think that like the money side of it, for me, it's like, I suppose it's like, if
I can be sensible enough, then my mental health won't suffer.
Suffer more with doing AADL and trying to actually like work and make things happen and
deal with people being, you know, they weren't too bad with me to be honest, but there's
an element of aggression and unpleasantness and you get criticized entirely.
But you know, I knew I was getting into that.
So, but I think that like, you know, to stay in that ring for a long time and work there
is really hard.
And then I think that if you're gambling a lot, then that's not going to be great for
your mental health.
And for me, it's like, if I could do, if I can do three or four acts every year, then
I'll still be, you know, I'll still do really well.
If you can do three or four acts each year, can you manage my portfolio?
Yeah, sure.
But this, but I just think it's like, love it has been paying attention and not being
as greedy as other people.
Like it's, and just, you know, and kind of going, oh, I've made some profit and maybe
I will take that profit and let a little bit of it run.
So like as an example, I'm currently up like 1200% on a particular token and I haven't
taken any profits yet.
Whereas I would already have just like some random arbitrem shitcoins and stuff like easily
like, oh, over 10 acts and I haven't touched it.
And that's the thing.
Like that's why you will become a millionaire before I would.
Or zero.
Like, right?
I realize profits.
That's how much you willing to gamble.
Whereas when I get a two acts, I just go, oh, right, I'll take the initial capital out.
Cool.
Yeah.
And it's all like the way I do it is like, look at market cap, right?
Like what's the narrative?
What's the, you know, what is the token?
Does it have utility?
Does it have community?
What's, you know, what's the market cap in comparison to something similar to it?
Right.
And if those things make sense, like as an example, like, you know, I own some neutron.
I'm holding neutron long term because I like the product and I think that they're doing
good things.
But like, I'm not going to take out profits from neutral.
Not like a two X as an example, right?
Because I think that it's market cap can go like substantially higher in a real bull market
up into the billions.
Why would I take profit on it when it's like 220 million or something, right?
Whereas like some arbitrage and shit coin that I buy at like two or five million, I'm
not going to hold that to like 200 million, right?
Like, I'm going to take some profits on it at like, you know, two, three, five X when
it becomes like, apparently obvious that it's market caps too high.
This is sort of what a really smart guy was talking to me about at Cosmoverse where he
was like, why are you so like, this was around after the leaves.
Like, you don't believe that and it's worth this price, do you?
I was like, no, I think it's worth more.
And he was like, so why are you selling any?
And I was like, because I kind of want to, you know, treat the family and do some stuff
and it was just like, well, you're an idiot.
And I was like, okay, fair point.
Like, yeah, let's let's hold Adam while like ICS and AIB.
Well, you know, I mean, you could swap it for something else, right?
You totally could.
But like, he was just talking to the choice was between that and the app.
So yeah, so I haven't taken like, I take very little money out of crypto into like actual
fiat.
The reason is that I don't want to pay the tax man.
And so I'll just like rotate it and just like record my transactions.
And then I'll get like pre-rich or like unrealized profits rich with the goal of like compounding
up where my portfolio is a good amount where if I do a 10%, like it's a substantial amount
of money.
That's the goal, right?
Rather than like, oh, let's take a few thousand here because, you know, I did a 5x or whatever
or 2x.
I'm of the opinion that like now when like we're actually moving towards a bull market,
like there's substantial money to be made if you are smart about it.
And I don't need to take fiat money, right?
Like, you know, wife and I have got pretty good jobs.
I certainly could and it would make life easier.
But I think there's substantial upside in the next kind of six to nine months.
So rather do that instead.
I think what's fascinating to me is how that it kind of just purges on psychology, right?
Some of it's to do with your own personal circumstances and whatever.
And then there's just this amount which is to do with why is it you're looking to do
and how much how much are you looking to make?
And like to me, it's like, I know that by being less greedy than Rama, I will outperform
him consistently, but he might beat me overall.
Like that's the thing because I will I will slowly chip away and I will take profits more
consistently than him.
But actually he might hit the jackpot and suddenly walk away a million and I'll be there going
now, well, I made a few thousand.
Yeah, like, yeah, you know, I guess people get seduced by that million.
They're like, oh, if I bought this, you know, I bought I could have bought Bitcoin in 2000
and whatever.
And if I had just held it till now, it's like, yeah, but no one's got that kind of ability
to hold it like that.
Most of the people who like forgot about it would go rich.
Yeah, it depends what it is, right?
Like, you're not going to like leave it in some fucking random meme coin.
You know, that's one in a thousand or one in 10,000 chance that that particular thing
like goes parabolic, right?
My big thing is like, I do crypto for fun and it's a hobby and part of that fun and
hobby is like gambling on whether or not like I actually have money that I can eventually
take that were substantially more than what I put in.
In terms of like actual dollars, time wise, I'm fucking, I mean, debt, I'm dirt poor for
crypto.
But like, you know, money wise, like I'm substantially in profit in terms of my portfolio,
which is great or unrealized.
And it's all part of the gamble and the fun and the hobby side of things, right?
Like, which is my goal.
So like I can still go on holidays and do things with the family because, you know, we're reasonably
well fed like off because of our feet, mind jobs.
So while I can continue to do that, I will.
And if I need to, I can just instantly cash out and take the profits where I need to.
So the moral of the story is don't be a validator.
Yeah, I think they probably spend substantially more time than I do, but also probably profit
a lot more than I did.
Validators definitely work 24 hours a day.
As an example, not last night, but the night before I got woken up eight times during the
night and probably three of those times was necessary to wake up.
But I, and, you know, the fall out of that is yesterday was a terrible day for me because
I was just tired and had a headache the entire day.
But last night, nothing.
So, but like, you know, overall, if you're a validator and have like people working for
you and stuff like that, you just, you spend all your time on it.
And it's very hard to get away.
Yeah, definitely.
Like, and I don't like that.
That's part of the reason why, you know, everyone was like, run up and start a validator, start
a validator, like, you know, we'll support you.
And, you know, I was like, when I really thought about it, I was like, I have to manage this
shit fucking ever.
And if I decide to like, spit down or whatever, it's like substantial, like social impact
and effort to like manage and maintain this shit.
I was just like, no, no way.
Like am I getting involved in something that was like perpetually effort and time for like
probably little value where I would be in like the validator set in income wise?
Well, we've said it here before.
And like the expectation is once you spin something up, you keep it running.
And like, because, you know, once people state to it, they, people want to stake and
forget they don't want to be like checking back every day to see if you're still there.
So it's not fair to like your delegators, if you just all of a sudden pop smoke, which,
you know, I have done on a couple of networks that were probably net bad for the users anyway.
So we gave plenty of notice to leave, but you still cop heaps of problems when you do
that.
And then people will actually leave you on other networks as well.
So, Bendy.
Well, I was just going to say, I think there was some chat about having a button that you
press, but when I'm spinning down, undeligate all my people, so they go redelec- you know,
like this should be a piece of functionality that would like, it wouldn't be difficult
to come up with something like-
It'd be nice if there was like-
Particularly with the LSD.
Some sort of function that if a validator could say, I'm going, but I trust this other
validator, you could do a spin down transaction and transfer all of your stake to another
one.
Yeah.
That'd be great.
If they trust you, then they should trust you.
Or if it's like, has to be waited so that you can't like screw the network by being
too centralized or whatever, you know, there's going to be some technical, you know, that
you go, yeah, okay, you have to distribute it across 10 people or whatever.
It doesn't really matter.
It's kind of more that what shouldn't happen is you stop validating and the user just doesn't
know and then they're not getting the stake in order to expect it.
Most of the time, I don't think the, I'm sorry to say this, no, but I don't think the users
really care who they're delegating to.
I think they, you know, I get sure I delegate to, so principally, if there's a game of nodes
validator on a chain, I will delegate to them because I enjoy this show and that's kind
of like my little like, oh, there you go.
You can have a little bit of commission.
Like, that's it.
Like, you know, I don't, I have no idea which of you is a good validator or a bad validator
or well, we're all good validators.
Well, obviously, that clear right now.
Well, obviously, and probably King knows is probably the best, but that's not, you know,
because you're the only one that turns up for this.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The only one that consistently turns up.
Yeah.
Has it missed an episode away?
I have.
Well, I've definitely been away for episodes that I may have came to anyway.
Like, I'm just glad that we didn't, we didn't miss an episode and the show went on regardless.
That's the main thing.
That's my takeaway.
Someone indicated to me in the group chat that we may have already missed an episode
at some point, but I don't recall when this might have been.
This is called cause less harm also believes we've missed one back in March.
And I think that everyone was at a conference.
I think is what it was.
We all were at a conference in March.
Yes.
So that I think yet it was a conference and nobody thought to give Rama and I a bell then
for today or today, you know, the fray has my actual mobile number.
He can definitely sub me in at any point.
Oh, now I feel like, you know, well, in the cold, I didn't have your mobile phone.
If you really want to go there, no.
All right.
Rama has mine.
Yeah.
I think the next thing we need to organize probably is when he called me.
But it's not the other way.
Oh yeah.
I actually called Rama the other day.
And he's like, who the fuck are you?
He's like, hello.
He's like, caught my name.
He's this, like a barely hearing.
So it's blood.
I was like, who?
It's not like, oh.
Yeah.
I'm like using my name and I'm using null.
I'm using my name.
I'm using null.
I'm using my name.
I'm using null.
He's like, who the fuck are you talking about?
What?
What are you calling me?
I'm like, fuck man.
Just like you think.
Look at your phone.
Yeah.
But anyway, sort of that out.
Can we source out the Christmas party, please?
What Christmas party?
Like the gone Christmas party?
Yeah.
An online Christmas party or?
I think I don't like, you know, Tray and I live close enough together in the UK that
we could get together for a beer.
You're Australian.
So you can have a good morning drink.
You guys could meet up.
You know, I think you're like.
You're going to do a live.
Yeah.
We get in Rio to hang out.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess so.
We could do like.
I can totally do it.
I mean, I think we're friends have gone like meet up, I suppose.
Yeah.
It's entirely possible, I would say entirely.
I do feel like I'm going to cop shade from my misses for drinking whiskey at 6am.
But you know, whatever.
What does she?
But does she watch the show?
She definitely does not watch the show.
She is not a friend of the show.
She's not my friend while I'm doing the show.
She thinks I'm a dumb fucking nerd on the internet talking to other idiots.
So sounds like she might dance.
Sounds like she might know you were drinking whiskey at 6am.
Yeah.
Like I don't think that's going to improve the situation.
She really going to care when you become a multimillionaire.
That's the key.
She does not care about my pre-rich.
She thinks that internet tokens are dumb and not worth anything.
So, and I mean, you know, that's the sentiment that a lot of people have.
Just wait till it's Chihuahua season, right?
And those jerks might come back to life.
Man, I have got a lot of those.
And I should not have kept.
Yeah.
My degening was hard back in the bull market.
And yeah, I watched this.
I need to let the dogs out for sure.
I mean, you know, you just you need to employ some paid shills and that token will run.
Because it has, you know, it's got great utility and it's a dog.
I mean, the best paid shill that I've been seeing lately is Rama.
And it is it is a dog.
It's been going hard on the shilling lately.
It's been fun.
Yeah.
You've you know, when there's a brand to a paid shill, I've been observing a lot
and how much Cosmos people see when you make money and they missed out after you told them.
It's been quite hilarious.
Well, that's a that's a guaranteed follow.
Isn't it when you tell people that they missed out on making money because you made it and they didn't.
It's literally it's been like a week and a half and we're like this thing's like 10, 5 mil market cap.