But it's only 20 more than what we have, right?
104 active or something like that?
110 active?
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent
validated teams.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent
validated teams.
And we're discussing expansion of validator sets again, or at
least is it expansion of validator sets or is it expansion of
business opportunities?
I don't know.
But there's quite a few launches.
Can we talk about, can we talk about launchers tomorrow?
Are we going to be here tomorrow?
That was a poorly phrased question.
We talked about launches that are occurring tomorrow.
Is that what you're talking about?
Yeah.
No.
I thought that was implicit in the word.
We only had this show once a week.
Well, the wording was ambiguous, but I thought the meaning
was clear.
It could only really be one of the lists.
So you didn't want to instantly, I don't worry about drinking.
It just leave the potty.
Semantics matter.
Okay.
This is a podcast that is, is, is, all right.
It's dreamily accurate in all aspects.
So wait, before we get onto that point, I do want to, so she'll
see this correct.
And you're, we were talking about the Aptos stress net that's
coming up starting Monday.
And we, we're all running multiple nodes for that.
And I thought that they were going to, I thought that might
be because they're expanding the set, which would allow someone
on this call to be able to get into that set.
But now I'm realizing, but, but now I'm realizing that, that,
that he's correct that we're running that because there's 113
validators in the set today, but some of those are much smaller
in terms of stake.
And so it's the larger stake Genesis valves that are performing
two nodes apiece to be able to make up that total number, which is
about a 10 more than what's currently in Genesis, which means
the door that I thought was open for our fourth colleague is
actually much smaller.
Maybe it's just a sliver of a crack.
I thought it was why I don't, I really did.
I, I totally misread what was going on here.
So after a year, I am, I am pretty used to being ignored by the
Aptos Foundation.
You're beat down.
I mean, I think that's the life of an Aptos validator to some extent.
I mean, honestly, it's a life, it's a life of any validator.
It's a life of any validator.
Yeah, when you're not being ignored, when you got problems really, I've
noticed that when I'm being ignored, I have a quite easy life.
And when we're not being ignored, it's usually because there's
something new about to happen.
And because we're relatively on the ball with things, we've, you
know, just, just need a bit of help testing something that's
going to involve a hairy operation in production.
And you're like, listen, I mean,
that the, this, in this job, you can't fall in love.
So you can't fall in love with like a chain or the idea of a chain or
being in a specific set because we are colleagues or you can't fall in
love because it's all fleeting, right?
Like you could get pushed out of that set.
Like we've been pushed out of osmosis like three times, right?
Like I really want to be in that set.
Do I have the capability of holding onto that and wanting to do that and
blah, blah, blah and investing that not necessarily, but you can't fall in
love with that, right?
You just have to move on to the next one and see who takes you to the
dance.
And even if you're in the dance, hell, like you still might have the
opp, you still might get, uh, I don't know.
So it's kind of like, you go home with somebody else.
Nation of what artifacts says when he says, oh, you got to kiss a thousand
frogs, you do.
I was going to bring up artifacts as well.
And I would say combining it with the wisdom of punk, uh, mastermind,
genius man, Jeff Rosenstock, nothing's forever, dude.
Nothing is forever.
Nothing's forever, dude.
It's what's spray painted on the back of a guitar that is within my
eye line.
And it may be pithy, but it is one of those quotes where you're just like,
as the chorus to a song, you're just like,
devastatingly accurate and infinitely quotable because it's just true.
Anyway, thanks, Jeff, for that one.
Brutal.
That, that's like one of my, my favorite things that artifact taught
me when we were out in East Denver, he was like, all right, when you get a good
business contract, here's the most important thing I can teach you.
Sit down and shut up.
Don't even let them know that you exist because once you exist, they
realize they have to pay you still.
So just sit down, shut up, make sure they don't ever have to contact you and
try not to contact them.
She'll see this like, wow.
Wait, wait, wait, but that's funny.
Hold up, hold up.
That means no, you're paying.
That is like, that's the antithesis to everything we teach on the game of
Windows, get rich seminar.
That is true.
But once you've already up to the top, then where do you go?
Once you've got to the top, you're like, all right, I'm done.
I'm here.
I'm just going to play the problem from the jungle book.
You've you're up to the top and you've had to stop.
And that's what's bothering you, man.
She'll say, did, did John tell you that specific story?
Yes, it's related to a specific network too.
Yeah, but.
Oh, as soon as you open your mouth and like, oh yeah, we're paying you.
I heard that story as well.
I know exactly.
I think we were together actually when we might have heard that story.
Yeah, this story, so I'll have to ask.
Yeah, I see.
Yeah, well, you didn't come to the thing, but motherfucker.
Right.
You didn't come to fucking smart, calm Barcelona, motherfucker.
So what do I, what do I got a private plane?
I can just fly around everywhere.
Why being next May?
Yeah, booked in next May.
I got a book flights in a con, but I'll be sleeping on someone's couch
because I'll be poor by the time I get there, paying for the.
Full consensus, consensus.
Yeah, consensus.
Yeah.
Oh, I have my ticket for that.
I've got.
Oh, did they come through?
Oh, good.
They came through today.
Oh, sweet.
All right.
Yeah, I'm going to.
I'm going to.
But I don't know if I will actually be able to come.
Oh, my God.
It's fucking.
I got a dev ticket.
I got a dev ticket, so I was just like.
Figure it out.
He's got important.
He's got important shit going on though.
Yeah.
I mean, if I get my Viva out the way, I don't know.
It's also time away from family, isn't it?
It's fucking ball.
Like to go.
I can't wait to get away from my unborn child to go to Texas.
No less.
That's like.
It's in Texas.
Maybe I thought it was in Denver.
At least.
No, it's not.
I'm not.
I don't know that good low altitude open carry state, baby.
Open carry barbecue.
This is getting less exciting.
No abortions.
You've got to keep Arizona's.
Arizona's all right.
It's been to Arizona.
I like that.
That fucking hot though, like hot.
I haven't noticed.
Oh, like it was like Morocco hot, you know, when you're like, why is anybody out during the daytime?
Because that's the thing that's like Phoenix, Arizona, right?
So that you can work normal hours.
They just missed water everywhere.
So you just always walking around in a mist of water and you're like, the solution to this has been worked out in every other hot country, which is you just don't fucking go to work till five
p.m. and you work till like 11 p.m.
And then you sleep and you sleep through the hot bit of the day.
Like go around Morocco in the summer, like go anywhere at lunchtime.
You'll see no come because people are smarter than that.
But here's the thing, though.
Americans think that they're better than nature.
That's why you read about hikers that died because they were like in flip flops and no water all the time.
You read out all the time.
Yeah.
Isn't that always a guy in Florida, though?
I read this story.
Oh, God, no, no, no happens in Oregon like three or four times a year where they're like, yeah, we sent the National Guard and National Guard's all pissy about it.
Because they're like this this guy, he came out here and flip flops and no water or a backpack.
His phone's dead.
Why did he do this?
His phone's dead.
And while he is when camping without a tent.
Yeah.
To be fair, though, like I think the only reason that doesn't happen in the UK is because nowhere is really further than about an hour away from anywhere else.
Like, right, right.
We like like the greatest wilderness we have is like you could get there in a helicopter in 45.
Right.
Like little you could you could just point in any direction and walk and you hit a pub like within two hours, right?
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
I died out there.
I'm not even kidding.
Like you can be in the middle of nowhere and you're you'd be like, fuck, I'm actually a bit lost.
Yeah, this is pre-mode off lines or whatever.
And you can actually walk up a hill and then just be like, oh, yeah.
Because every valley has a village like there's there's this thing you do called Duke of Edinburgh where you it's basically like hiking and outdoors stuff.
The long and short of it is at some point when you're about 16, they just dump you in the peak district for like three or four days.
And every night you have to be in a certain place and you have to carry all your food with you in your tent and blah, blah, blah.
But but during the day, whatever.
And that's literally what happens.
You just walk up a hill and you're like, there's a town there.
Should we go to the pub?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I can see how many hours we got before the checkpoint.
Like, we're going to get served.
Yeah.
It's the middle of the peak district.
I think we'll get served.
The only thing is you're not supposed to they because they because they obviously they think about this.
You're not supposed to carry any cash on you.
You specifically get given I think it's like granted this was when I was a kid, right?
So a long time ago, you're allowed to take a couple of quid for the phone like for a phone box as like emergency money.
But you weren't allowed to take, you know, enough money to buy a meal because then they were like, obviously you'll find a town and then you just buy some food.
You know, you'll find a lot of food on you.
You'll find a lot of food on you.
So you just like put put 20 quid in your sock.
They don't give a shit.
They're just like, where you got your pockets?
You're like, nothing.
And I like checks out off you go.
They'd like just go up a hill and be like, there's the nearest village.
Well, the Rose and Crown looks like it looks like a goer.
I thought he's tied a fucking iPhone to his.
I thought he was tying a fucking iPhone to his fucking bokeh.
And then like, I was just like, he's the fucking bokeh.
And then like, I didn't even know what to do with my iPhone.
I wanted to take an extra iPhone like, like, literally sticky taped an iPhone to my way to my screen here.
I tried to do the same with an Android phone.
And it doesn't like it technically can work, but it's a huge hassle.
You got to download apps on both sides and jump through hoops and sacrifice a lamb.
It's pretty bad.
So the only way I can get better image than that is to actually have my DSLR up there, but there's a lag
and it's annoying.
Yeah, I was just shopping like what other options are there?
Cause I don't even have an old iPhone sent around.
So, and they're all DSLRs, but you get that whole bunch of issues with that, right?
The other problem I've noticed is a lot of these devices that aimed at gamers.
And so they're just like all the drivers of windows and actually don't work
super well on my Mac.
Yeah.
So like this camera on the windows partition of my Linux box is actually much better
quality.
Like it works way better.
It's like, I think it's a 4k camera.
Um, and on the Mac it's like, I'll try my best.
Did you ever do a call with Jake when he had like Linux installed on like an IBM or something?
Oh yeah, on ThinkPad.
Yeah, it was like a top of the line ThinkPad as well.
It's all, it was like, it looks like he's like, you know, um, what's the matrix when
they're like outside of the matrix and contacting people and like screens always like fudgy.
There's a game of nodes episode with him like that.
It's like, there's like blue lines cutting across sideways and everything.
Yeah.
That's very par for the course really.
Um, yeah.
Um, my, uh, one of the academics that I've been working with, uh, is like where you go
during the week.
Yeah.
Is it?
When you talk about school, same thing.
When you get, when you talk about school, you have to put breaks in so we can get our,
we can have time to put our jabs in there.
Yeah.
You have to put that fucking square hat on when you start looking.
The little bingley bit.
What are you going to do when you're actually Dr.
Frey, because then it's like, we've already been calling you Dr.
Frey.
It's going to be worn out by that point.
Are you going to be Mr.
Dr. Frey?
I don't know.
I imagine I'll probably just go like, I have a doctor at fuck off.
Yeah.
You'll be, you'll be too distinguished for this fucking show.
Let me tell you that.
Yeah.
I am the doctor now.
Yeah, exactly.
Look at me.
I'm the doctor now.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Ben Davis says, in fact, that no, no idea what the hat is called is excellent.
What's that square one with the dangly bit?
Look, I'm a graduate motherfucker.
I mean, it's a bit rich of, it's a bit rich of an old to be going on about school
when he could barely find the word in the dictionary.
But anyway.
Yeah.
Hey, man.
Fuck you.
We don't have dictionaries here.
I don't get on with books.
Yeah, I've got a fucking big stack of books over there that I've never read.
Do you know, like the answer is always just in a book.
It's a question of whether you read the right one.
Yeah, that's kind of shut the fuck up.
Shut the fuck up.
Yeah, this, this is out is 9% and it goes down very smooth.
What is it?
Guinness that I'm not sure.
Oh, Guinness is about 5.2.
I think.
Yes.
I think it's quite low.
It's actually really low calorie as well.
Relatively speaking, 125 calories for a big old can like this.
That's like half of what a cider would be.
Well, he gives us a shot of sugar.
Wow.
You guys are kind of harsh there.
I got a drink.
Sorry.
It gives me the indigestion because I'm old.
So yeah, it's quite acidic cider.
Yeah, it is.
The Frey, are you are you taking your beer piss warm in tradition or?
Oh, no, it's not bitter.
You only have bitter at room temperature.
Oh, OK.
Sorry, I didn't know.
Come on.
I thought you all just did all your.
Fuck it.
Idiot.
No, like Cass, there's this difference between.
I think what's it called?
Keck, Keck temperature and cask temperature and stuff.
Like there's like room and then there's a fucking.
Yeah, do you know Ben Davison's in the chat?
He'll remember the the correct word and the thing.
There's like room temperature and then there's like cellar temperature
for for kegs and casks like it shouldn't ever be.
It's the warm beer thing is is like not a thing.
Like they're always below room temperature.
It's just that they're not cold.
I'm a firm believer in all drinks are better colder.
Like red wine.
Don't care.
I want to cold really.
55.
Oh, yeah.
55 degrees.
Oh, we can drink red wine together.
Wait, how?
Like you need to.
Fuck.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I don't know what I do it up into Oregon, but.
Like ref, like refrigerated cold.
Refridgerated cold or like red wine cold.
Yeah, refrigerator cold.
Like 30 like 37 degree cold like that.
Yes.
That's wrong.
That's right.
The word.
I do put on.
I am not happy.
They're not happy.
She'll see.
They have very angry.
Vintners.
Look, I'm not going to lie.
I know people who get their box of wine into their plastic cup
and throw some ice cubes in there.
And I almost like throw up at the whole situation.
For a box of.
Do you have a box of?
Over there.
It's got a great name, hasn't it?
Is it it's like a goon?
No, there's all kinds of names.
What was it begins with a G, doesn't it?
Like the kinds of people who are buying that call it like lady in a boat
because it's got a picture of a lady in a boat on it.
I thought there was like a one word like lady in a boat.
Like like Aussieism for the bag of wine.
Oh, yeah.
Goonsack. Goonsack.
You are so close to the fact that he didn't just take that.
Your gas ridiculous.
He said a goona.
I think goon which probably is because I think of Bundy.
Yeah, but it's like cheese.
Well, it is a cheese.
Gooders, gooders of touch cheese.
Yeah. Yeah. No, they call it a goon bag.
Quite popular.
Yeah. And in the young crowd at the parties with you,
your goonsack of like just cheap white wine.
Yeah.
Thing is, though, there's enough deep, like really pretty decent
Australian wine that you can probably buy bullshit cheap wine
in Australia that's actually like reasonably good.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, like, I don't know, you can get like 20 bucks one
that's half decent here, I guess.
But, you know, for for something that's actually tastes good
and has a good like finish and texture, it's like maybe 50 to 80 bucks.
Australian, I suppose.
So it's not like France where it's like three euros and you're like fucking hell.
Yeah.
What is that?
Is that like a good fucking hill or a bad fucking?
Yeah, good.
I could. OK. No, yeah, it's expensive.
Yeah. I mean, they're good as early wines,
but so are we buying those cheaper than you are?
Maybe.
Well, the the labor in Australia is fucking expensive.
I don't know if you get like a good bulk rate to get it out.
I don't know if they got like some sort of trade deal.
We have like all kinds of alcohol tax.
So you probably get it.
We do without the tax.
Yeah. But to be honest, like when I was in the states last,
I went and looked at the liquor stores and I'm buying,
you know, like good whiskeys for cheaper here than what you are.
Well, I fair my.
Liquor is pretty expensive here.
Actually, we talk about dependent as well.
It is it is extremely state dependent because because the overlying tax,
similar to gasoline, things like that.
I just want to say from the chat,
Ben Davis says the poshest person I know has their red wine cold.
However, from memory.
OK, I'm not going to dox the area of the country that Ben, I believe,
lives in, but I will just say that the poshest person that lives there
probably isn't very posh.
Shots.
Jeez.
I would ideally then made a joke in the accent and then I realized
that is also doxing.
So out of respect, I'm just going to mute my mic, have a little juggle to
myself and then yeah, we have done alcohol tax chat before, though.
So unless you want me to get the banner, the totally tax time banner out.
I'm trying to remember what what I can do.
Oh, Jacobs Creek and what?
No, not Jacobs Creek.
That's like a cheap.
Penfolds.
I have some Penfolds here.
That's a that's a damn good wine.
Well, Jacobs Creek is the cheap one.
Yeah.
And I think the other two hands is that another one?
I think that's Australian.
It was real good.
But those are probably those are hands.
Those are probably 80 bucks here.
Did you just sneak a reference into something there?
No.
I did not.
Okay.
So back to the question that kicked off this entire meander.
Can we talk about the chain launch that is tomorrow?
Oh, that is one.
Let's talk about it.
Do I DX?
Yeah, it will see other one.
Celestia.
Do I DX and Celestia?
Well, Celestia is watching tomorrow.
I don't think it's tomorrow.
Celestia is soon, isn't it?
Well, I mean, what is Celestia?
Well, the airdrops already happens.
I guess the chain must be running.
Hang on.
Wait, what the fuck?
No, so the airdrop, the way that worked was you had to register it on test net
that you wanted it for main net.
Kind of weird.
OK, what the fuck?
So they would have had a contract and then snap,
showed the contract and then put that in the Genesis.
Yeah, I mean, well, except the state.
Well, yeah, the state will work, but only if you do some fucking.
OK, fine, whatever.
But I thought Celestia wasn't Cosmos I'm enabled.
So how?
No, I guess they could have a custom module, couldn't they?
That would make more sense.
They have custom module, they snapshot the state of it,
and they throw in the Genesis.
And then when the chain initializes,
you can have five fucking tokens worth nothing.
You know, I think you're overthinking it.
The snapshot thing could have just been like them accepting a transaction
and then exporting it to a CSV that they manually upload
via ScriptLator into the Genesis.
Like.
I mean, you could also do that.
Yeah, actually, I think I have a rough script that does that.
Yeah, I mean, if I were to do it, that's basically what I would do.
It'd be so much easier than like relying on actual Cosmos SDK stuff.
I'd be like, OK, they hit yes, pop into the CSV.
Let's go.
I've seen quite a few no JS Jason Wrangling scripts.
Is that one of the few times when you're like, oh, yeah,
parsing a massive JSON file is not ideal.
Back to CSV is the fucking best.
CSV is great.
Line by line format that you can lazily read.
You never run out of memory.
You can parse an infinite CSV, folks.
Do yourself a favor.
Just use CSV.
It's a text file.
It's widely understood.
You can serve it over a web browser.
Every browser understands it.
Every web server understands it because of the HTTP.
The headers, it's just supported everywhere by everything.
What happens if you need to use a comma in your data?
You have to escape it.
Mm hmm. That sounds annoying.
I mean, anything that would be exporting it, but just do it automatically.
So exactly.
You should just write better software if you have a problem with that.
It's yeah.
So yeah.
So that's that.
The idea is tomorrow before the four.
The yeah.
V4. Yeah. So D.
D. Y. D. X.
Man, I am pretty like I don't want to say excited, but I'm pretty interested
in the whole situation, the whole show.
Mainly because it is the only while it's the first chain to launch
with significantly different tokenomics.
And it's going to be operating on V3, which is on Ethereum
and the new D. Y. D. X. chain simultaneously for a while.
So people don't have to like go straight over.
But I think it indefinitely was the word I heard until they figured out.
So I think it's got a long while.
Really?
Well, they said they said, I mean, a long while, meaning like, I think
there's so many people who've written kind of trading type of structures
on V3.
Yes.
That and large traders that they said, we're not messing with any of that.
So there's a bridge which is built into the new chain, which is kind of cool.
It's got the Oracle, which is built into the new chain, which is also kind of cool.
Because everybody knows how much of a fucking pain it is to maintain an Oracle.
And also, but on the tokenomics, besides all the token unlocks
and all the regular bullshit, the rev like there's no inflation.
So once the token launches, the supply is the supply and all of the supply
comes from Ethereum.
So if you want to have tokens on the DYDX chain, you got to bridge it
and nothing is created or destroyed on the DYDX chain itself.
So all of the tokens already exist.
You have to bridge them over.
There's a bunch of token unlocks on Ethereum very soon, like in, what is it?
November sometime?
What is it? November sometime?
But all of the revenue is paid in USDC.
So all the revenue on the chain, it's all from trading on the chain
and it's all paid in USDC to the stakers.
So well, I knew that it was all in USD or all paid to the stakers.
I just didn't realize that it was denominated USDC.
Yeah.
So if you have a look at your your test net validator, you'll see that you have
no commission in that IBC denomination, which is the
DYDX, but you will have just like a bunch of USDC from the trading fees.
So pretty awesome.
To me, that means that you can actually value that chain traditionally,
like where you would use a discounting plus return method
to actually value what that coin should be worth based on an expected return
plus some risk.
So I think I calculated it this week that and this is not financial
advice for anyone and my math is pretty bad.
It's on the back of an envelope.
But my my grew to mentally calculation was fair value of about six bucks
based on a 10 percent return in stable coins.
So where is that?
Where's that USDC liquidity coming from?
Like, is that how are they minting that?
Is that like native?
They've already been minting it in Genesis.
So it's it's already in a like a module controlled account from Genesis.
So as people bridge, it comes out of that account.
But what's supposed to come from Noble?
Oh, so they're buying Noble.
Oh, sorry, USDC, not the DYDX.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Are they buying that?
They probably they probably have a deal with Noble.
I mean, they have to purchase it because Noble is basically buying it from
Circle or however they fucking works.
Probably. Yeah.
And so so they're so and then they are there pools associated that or no?
Like how like it's a mark.
Yeah, like the trading platforms.
So it's a book.
So you know, it's an order book, right?
So there's a straight order book for that for so there.
So those reserves on USDC, those are DYDX.
DYDX owned reserves.
And so based on staking and other types of things, that's basically
coming out of that that structure.
Well, then why?
Why reserves?
Why do they need reserves?
Where's USDC coming?
Who?
It comes from the traders.
So when the traders trade, they have to have USDC balance.
Oh, I see.
So that's a fee that's coming in from the traders on the USDC side.
Yeah.
So when you trade, it takes a fee and that's instantly distributed to the stakers.
I got you.
Instantly or is that a epic based?
Oh, I couldn't tell you that, but I would assume it was.
I'm assuming it's by block.
Wow. OK. Cool.
So so you have to have USDC to trade and that gets basically distributed based on.
Oh, there goes the tape.
Oh, no.
My FOMO has kind of disappeared a little bit.
That's expensive.
I mean, someone just needs to make a fucking bracket for these things
that doesn't only attach to a fucking Apple monitor.
They do get a really good one, man.
Yeah.
It's due to also the gorilla mount where you strap in your phone
and then it's got the three legs and you can just attach it to fucking anything.
Oh, I know you're talking about the one that can like anchor over.
Yeah, that's one.
I'm going to lose in a box somewhere around here.
It's super useful.
Just that is fucking hilarious.
So they but there's a shit.
Go look at just Google.
Go on Amazon.
Look for like a iPhone monitor.
There's like a thousand of them.
So for those of you listening on the podcast players, we know you do exist.
What has just happened here is Null's iPhone has fallen off his monitor,
whacked into the table and he's now fiddling with it.
If you're wondering what we're talking about, that is it.
And if you're thinking we're 30 minutes in and we haven't talked about the news yet,
you'd be right.
So.
Well, hold on.
We deserve a little credit.
We talked about DYDS.
I mean, we've talked about DYDS.
The active conversation.
To be fair, it's pretty it's pretty active.
And it was actually interrupted, if anything, quite a flowing conversation
by the demise of the iPhone.
So, you know, I shouldn't be so down on what's happened so far.
I do see it sliding down the monitor
because your head keeps going up in the frame.
So so the freight, I don't think we're finished on DYDS
because I saw you put up the the CircleStake logo
even for just a brief second.
But I think this I think this spits in the face of the CircleStake narrative.
And I would like to hear your opinion on that.
I mean, they're basically doing what Kajira is doing, right?
Except for Kajira.
Kajira's got no inflation.
So and their fees are paid in trading.
Yeah, that's our own stable, though, right?
No. So the way that Kajira does it is they basically all trading
like probably Taker and Maker fees go to Stakers as well.
And so you end up with just an insane amount of tokens in your commissions.
I think it would be more sense to probably do it.
DIYDX is doing this where it probably goes into some sort of escrow.
And then it converts it to USDC and then pumps it to the Stakers.
I think that's a smart idea.
I think that they should just change their system
so that all fees are paid in IST or USK or whatever the fuck.
USK.
So I was going to say, I think actually the fact that they are trying
to make a system that pays for itself is admirable.
And as Noel says, I will give credit for I don't think it is.
I think it does fly in the face of the circle state narrative.
So heavily pushed by the cynical Mr. Frey.
However, the Honourable Future Dr. Frey.
So fucking.
So I started writing my first paper, right?
And it is on systemic risk and very heavily influenced
by a certain prop that you may have seen in the Cosmos
causing some drama in the last couple of years.
But there's essentially there's a narrative that says that a lot of the stuff
that privacy nerds care about is like future problems.
Like nobody is going to de-anonymise you anytime soon.
You money is as good as anybody's public ledgers are great.
That's the kind of general consensus in.
Well, the general consensus.
That's arguably the general consensus.
Contention here is very much overtaken by events.
That is not the case.
And, you know, oh, actually, I was going to say, you know, and I remember
that you Serpa was not in fact at the conference in Amsterdam
where I saw artifact where on the trade floor, every single company
that went to this FinTech conference that was anything to do with blockchain
was all about scraping a blockchain and trying to work out who the fuck all the people were.
And it was a bit embarrassing that obviously a bunch of VCs had thrown
a load of money at these companies, and then they'd all turned up at the FinTech
conference with 20 of the same fucking product.
But what it does tell you is that a lot of money is being spent
a lot of money is being spunked up the wall in the bear market on how can we find out
who the fuck you are and what the fuck you're doing on open ledgers.
That is the big game in town.
The last two physical blockchain meetups I've been to a company has been
presenting on that being like, hey, we're not the enemy.
We want to work with you.
We have all these reasons that we care about your privacy, but we are also
systematically working to undermine your financial privacy.
Fucking assholes.
Anyway.
Well, see, the thing is, all you need is some sort of like scan for your eyes
so you can like identify yourself on the chain privately and then be
stored in a central database.
It's very, very sensible, really.
And the AI involved with this somehow.
So anyway, the long and short of it is I'm writing a paper that says
if you have a public ledger, token fungibility is fundamentally a myth.
It's a myth that relies only on the good grace of the system and granted.
A lot of economic systems basically rely on the system continuing as if
all of the failure modes don't exist.
Right.
That's a given.
But every time we talk about all these systems that rely on stable coins,
I look at a stable coin and I look at the fact it is an account based
abstraction and I go, that is fucking massive systemic risk.
So the whole thing kind of seems fucking doomed by design to me now.
Maybe I've been thinking about it too much.
But stable coins are like the absolute one area where, you know,
you could have like shit coins and not be not have any privacy because
most shit coins, you don't have many of them and you use them for really
specific things like trading or doing something.
And then you trade out of them back into a stable coin.
But the fact that my stable coins are still in the stable coins,
but the fact that my stable coins are still using account based
abstractions is, I don't know if I'll say that like, even whether or not,
like there's obviously people spending hundreds of millions of dollars
trying to de-anonymize you.
I mean, it's all a bit of a mess.
So I don't know.
The least compelling part of the entire party is the USDC thing for me.
And I know I'm a fucking prick about USDC being shit anyway.
So sorry.
But yeah.
So wait, hold on, you're saying that USDC then is less trustworthy than USDT?
Is that what you're saying?
No, I'm saying they're all kind of potentially a bit fucked.
Okay.
But from DYDX standpoint, because it's systemic risk,
it's like the 2008 financial crisis, like it's not real until it's real.
Like, MBSs aren't going to collapse until they collapse.
So YOLO, right, would be my summary of all of that.
Like, I think the DYDX model is sound, but the stablecoins aren't sound.
So my beef is with stablecoin, not with their general approach.
And actually, I think what Noel described is, yeah, is reasonable.
I think actually, both of what you guys were saying,
we'll see what you were saying about escrow and presumably that's related to
taxable events.
I think that is like, that's a, to be honest, a programming model
that we need to think about more as programmers, I think, in smart contracts
and on blockchains, which is, you know, rather than, you can calculate
stuff in shorter epochs or even at block length, but actually batching up
largest operations into like longer timeframes, I think is eminently fucking sensible.
And it has been happening as like, you know, loads of protocols in the cosmos,
especially ones used to cause them, that can be changed more quickly,
have been changing the way that they work on that respect to cause fewer taxable
events, which I think is a good thing to do.
And then like Noel says, like in general, like the more we talked about this a lot
with Tara, didn't we?
Like back in the day, like the closer you are to something comprehensible
to a user like a stablecoin, the more successful your protocol is going to be,
probably.
So Noel's 100% on the money with that too, I guess.
Well, I am pretty like just interested to see how it plays out.
And to be honest, like, we're not talking small potatoes here either.
Like that platform does a lot of...
Well, so Ben Davis in the chat said the interesting thing, he said a few things,
but one of the interesting things is that it has a Kajira like model,
but with volume, right?
Yeah.
And that, I think, is the interesting thing.
It's like, okay, what if we don't do a circle stake, but we also have volume?
That is, it's fucking mad to say that hasn't been tried in the cosmos yet,
but it's been tried, but not with volume.
Yeah, but in S, it's also the trading pairs are far outside the cosmos.
Like it's using Tendermint, but this is not a Cosmos order book.
No, it's not.
Bitcoin, Ethereum, like Chainlink, like all the big boys from Ethereum,
they're not really trading.
And I think they like the thing with DYDX is that they're going to,
as much as possible, abstract away the fact that you're on a DYDX,
on a Cosmos SDK chain.
It doesn't matter, right?
Yeah, to the users, it will be the same experience except faster.
And I think that's the point.
Right, yeah, to the users, it will be the same experience except faster.
And cheaper.
And cheaper, yeah.
Right.
So with all this said, the interesting thing here about talking about
between Kajir and DYDX and Osmosis is Kajir actually just flipping DOSMO.
It is now above Osmosis's market cap, which might be some sort of
representation of people seeing, oh, well, DYDX has this model.
Kajir has a very similar thing, maybe be worthwhile to, you know,
in market cap, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
But aren't you, go ahead.
But aren't they, they're generating, what does that mean exactly?
They're generating their own token, right?
So is it, it's not trading volume because I just saw some stat that like
Osmosis has like 93% of the trading volume in Cosmos.
So what does market cap mean in that?
And do you know what that, what they're defining that as?
Like just a value of the tokens that are underneath, right?
Like purely, purely, there's so much koojee is and here's the total volume
and it's out there and this is what the price is.
Yeah.
So like it's above Osmo and CoinGecko right now, which is interesting.
It used to be, you know, a hundred places behind it, or not a hundred.
Yeah.
Several hundred places behind it.
I'd be interested in the actual volume moving.
Like that, that, that, I mean, in the number of like daily users and those
types of things, like, because the other stuff is kind of manufactured, isn't it?
Like it's not many.
I mean, it's all manufactured, right?
Like we all, like, come on.
Yeah.
I don't want to burn the whole house down, but yeah, but like, yeah, you're right.
Okay.
Yes, it all means nothing.
You're right.
If we bear it up.
I have actually realized, I just, I was just listening to you guys talking
about this and an intrusive thought pops into my head, which is I think the rebuttal,
the rebuttal of my paper is actually that you can defeat the systemic risk
with a circle stake, right?
So I feel like every time you say circle stake, it takes on a different meaning.
It's a very useful term.
Yes.
But right.
So, okay.
So, so you know how the financial crash in 2008 happened, right?
Which was that people kept going, oh shit, we've just uncovered all the systemic risk.
But what if we made another derivative that would then just amortize our risk into
a higher order derivative and then we could sell that even more?
I think that the problem I'm describing is a amortized in crypto in the same way,
which is that you're like, wow, shit, there's loads of systemic risk with USDC.
But hey, if we put it into noble in cosmos and fucking any other ecosystem, whatever,
just keep fucking spaffing it into more ecosystems, then like eventually the
token is so widespread that even if it goes to shit in its original incarnation,
like even if Ethereum halted, obviously not going to happen.
But the bridge died at the other end.
There's still noble USDC fucking floating around.
You've just created so many different representations of the same fucking thing
that it's too big to fail, right?
The circle stake wins.
I'm so distracted by your fucking like academia look now with your
toxic hair and your fucking turtleneck.
I had this.
I had this stuff like, oh, yeah, you fuck with.
Yeah, but now you're wearing it.
So I was wearing it last year.
You just hang in the club and look at it and think to yourself one day,
Dr. Fray, one day, that fucking day's come.
And now you've got it out here.
You got that turtleneck almost touching your fucking ears.
You got like this tough to shit going over your head now with your.
It's pretty good hair.
Yeah.
Don't be hate.
Just because I got more of it.
And this is a Submarinus jumper.
It's a very practical item of clothing for the cold and old and winter.
It's look like I'll come to your defense.
I remember that turtleneck.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
Just remember hanging on the shelf in the background with all the other
shit.
Great.
It's great fucking jumper.
You're you're kind of slowly morphling into Matt Damon and good
wheel hunting.
And I feel like I feel like the rest of us are just morphling into a janitor.
No, the rest of us are Ben Affleck just trying to be like, go, dude.
Yeah, make it happen.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Don't talk to us like you're talking about Williams.
Like a chucky.
Like the way I see the rest of us is like a non player character just sort of
backing up and walking into a door, backing up and walking into a door.
Unlike the phrase just drives the spaceship over the top of the door.
I'm fucking.
I you know, I wish I had actually made a meme of it.
I could pre preload it into our into our slick podcasting software.
One of my favorite memes, which is not really a meme because only I fucking use
it.
But you know, in Goodwill Hunting, when there's that scene where Chucky goes
to the job interview that I literally can't even remember what Ben Ben, Ben Damon,
Matt Damon, Ben Damon, Matt Damon.
I can't remember what his fucking character is called.
Who gives a shit doesn't matter.
Ben, Ben Damon is supposed to go to that job interview.
And then Chucky goes to it instead.
And he's just like, Ritz Heiner, you know, with his arms wide and he just
leads back in the chair and they're just like, who the fuck is this Joker?
But look on his face.
He's so certain it will work.
And of course it does.
That is the single best moment in the film.
And I have a screen grab of that and occasionally just add a word on top of it.
But that's the that's the don't ask, don't get that moment.
I was like, Hey, no.
And next week, the word's going to be circle stick.
Circle stick.
Yeah, something like that.
You saw it.
You saw right here.
First folks, the Frey Maming.
I mean, fuck, we should just.
You know what?
So to the title of this podcast, right, we did the whole validators of the real
heroes things.
I made the fucking t-shirt design, right?
That happened.
You Serpa vetoed it.
So the t-shirt saga.
Oh, really?
I didn't veto.
I just didn't think it was that funny.
Was there a vote?
Okay.
There was no vote.
Do we need a prop?
We didn't put a prop in the dial to be fair.
I mean, did it really happen if it wasn't voted on?
If it didn't happen on a public ledger, was it really even a thing?
Much like much like paying our news game.
Yeah, like it just, you know, the super the super had a fucking an opinion.
But I mean, there's two other people in this now, like maybe we had a differing
opinion could have written in fucking comment.
No, so I fucking hated it.
I didn't want to hurt your feelings.
You think my feelings would be hurt by that?
I have much thinner skin than I actually have.
I don't give a fuck with that fucking light.
I can see through your skin into your fucking bone.
That's true.
Weird lighting in here for a while.
Lighting in here for a guy that's quite brown as well.
Although maybe I look more brown than you right now.
I'm not this brown in real life.
This is all the camera.
Yeah, this is probably more the massively over exposed to be fair.
It's also the camera has like a lighting ring on it.
So I'm getting like blasted in the face by really helpful white light.
You're right.
Cheek is so fucking overexposed.
It's not funny.
Like there is not.
Yeah, that one.
Oh, is it reverse camera?
That cheek is like got so much overexposure that it's just part half of your face is white.
There you go.
It's even that way without the reading light.
Weird.
Yeah.
And the weird thing is that this light, I think, yeah, it's kind of more on that side.
Fucking it is, mate.
Like literally the only thing that's here is a wall.
There's a wall there where my hand is.
But I don't know.
Maybe it's reflecting off the wall.
Anyway, it's not important.
I mean, should we continue with the news?
So paint your room black, get some softboxes.
Okay.
So here's the thing.
We've tried a bunch of t-shirt ideas.
We tried the iDump shitcoins.
We tried the GoMod tidy.
None of these things have happened.
The one t-shirt design that does exist, it actually exists.
We fucking, those of you who are a Cosmiverse may have seen this guy.
They do exist.
All these exist.
It's not that it's anybody can.
This one exists.
Anyone can create a t-shirt.
It's the actual building of them.
They're making up the t-shirt.
This is where it's all falling apart.
I think at this point, our most iconic contribution is this.
Yeah.
And I think that's the t-shirt.
I think by default, by a sheer grinding down, an evolutionary process, a battle to the death,
a thunderdome of t-shirt apathy has led us to the only survivor being circle steak, the
only logical conclusion.
Okay.
I have to step in here.
I feel like you feel like that our only contribution to society is the circle steak
sign.
I mean, I still really like the North Vido shirt.
The North Vido shirt really did it for me.
That's a good shirt.
That one was fantastic.
Did someone design that one?
No, it was great.
Yeah.
I think, I think, right?
You ignored that too.
Who made it?
I said, I said, let's go.
I don't know.
We have plenty of good ideas.
It's the actual creation.
It's the, we just, we all have a problem with finishing.
Literally all of these.
But like, we do have a problem with finishing.
I fucking don't.
I got a quote for t-shirt printing.
I just need to know how many, because you need to know how many colors dipshits.
It seems like you have a problem with finishing.
Sorry, your t-shirt is a legendarily bullshit.
Our t-shirts with fucking legendarily legendary.
So I have actually engaged a artist for a new shirt to draw a picture of your balls.
Look, the content is not important at this point.
We're still spitballing ideas, but.
So you hired somebody to redo the King's t-shirt.
I have made a hire for an artist and given them more ideas than you can poke a fucking
stick at.
This is going to look like Picasso soup.
I don't think that paying someone on five recounts is hiring is the thing.
Do you think your ideas are the direction that person needs?
I think they should take my ideas, put them in a box, come up with their own ideas, which
is why I'm paying them five bucks and then present those ideas to me and convince me
that I need them.
And I'll proceed to give them another five bucks.
Will your shirts be printed before consensus 2024?
I believe in our collective issues with finishing.
I don't know.
Don't mind fucking issues, mate.
He does.
He did have.
I do have a needle cash shirt.
So it doesn't exist.
I mean, I have a shirt.
Like we all have a shirt.
I do have a King knows shirt.
I don't have a shirt.
But you do have a sticker that's on my laptop.
Wait, no, I'm pretty sure you do have a fucking shirt because I saw one and oh, no, was that
sticker?
I had a shirt.
You know what?
No.
Highs actually had shirts and hoodies and stuff printed.
So there are actually shirts that exist of five under five.
So I take that back.
Yeah.
I have a problem finishing, but high.
Pretty sure I saw one in Amsterdam, but that wasn't one of my size.
I was like, ah, damn.
What if what if I made patches and people can make their own fucking shit?
You just give them the patches and they sew it on there like grandma.
Well, you could just do that on Redbubble.
Again, actually good shirt rather than a shit.
Yeah, they're pretty shit.
You know that redbubble ones are good.
I still make a few quid every year from some shit Emax puns that I put on Redbubble a few
years ago.
And every time there's a conference with Emax users, somebody buys like 50 fucking stickers
and I get two points of beer.
It's great.
Really?
For an Emax?
Yeah.
You're not the one that makes.
So one of them, I actually did an illustration.
I think it's the only illustration I've ever done as like an actual illustration.
I drew it.
I fucking drew it.
It took ages and then I then, because I didn't really know what I was doing, I scanned it
into the computer and then I rewent over it with like essentially brushes in illustrator
or Photoshop.
I can't remember one or two to actually then draw out the design.
It took fucking ages, definitely not how illustrators would actually do it.
And I made this design and I thought it was really proud of it and it occasionally sells
a t-shirt or some stickers or whatever.
And I was like, hey, that's kind of cool.
And then I was cycling home from work one day and I was like, huh, the word Emax is
the same number of letters as back.
And I was like, what if you put the back to the future logo, but you put the word Emax
instead of back?
It doesn't even really make sense.
Do you have a shirt that says Emax to the future?
I don't own it because the joke doesn't really work for me.
Like it's sort of adjacent to a joke, but it's not really a joke.
But I just made that.
It took five minutes.
I put it on Redbubble and I think it's made me about $400 at this point.
Wow.
Yeah, I know.
Like, I'm not even kidding.
When there is a conference where there are a bunch of Emax users, some guy will be like,
that's kind of, is that funny?
I don't know.
I think it's funny.
Whatever.
And then they buy 50 stickers and then I'm like, cool.
Whatever, man.
That's really a testament to the quality of Emax user.
Yeah.
I mean, what can I tell you other than, I think there are things that take loads of time and
effort and not the ones that ever make you money.
The things you're proud of are not the ones anybody else ever proud of.
As a project, you know, our project here, the potty, I think the only product we've
made or someone here made, fucking wasn't me, that is any good is the Wagtag sticker.
We should just sell those.
That's a great sticker.
We could sell those.
We could sell those as a pin.
Yeah, it's just the delivery.
Yeah.
But we could do that.
We have those.
We have those game of note stickers, which I think are pretty good.
We could just issue this.
So in the chat, Bandei has said, is the is the jumper secret game of notes merch?
Yeah, we can.
We can sell you a Submarine is jumper with Wagtag on it.
No, no, no, no, just classic.
Just the classic maybe blue.
So you just want to become an apparel company now and not put anything on it.
You just want to sell the fucking shit.
And let's see.
That's right.
Well, I was one of them.
That's right.
Yeah, we never got the shout out in the in the picture as far as I can tell.
That's right.
We did.
We do.
We did do a second one to one NFT baby baby onesie.
The onesie is amazing.
That was a good onesie is framed.
Yeah, that was good.
Yeah, I I pressed the button and had that produced IRL after after provided.
It took many of us to really make that happen.
I had to create the graphic and do all the work of that and like get it all correct and
right size it and then I had to send to you and you had to click one button.
I was really it was definitely a team effort on that one.
There was more than one button.
I had to fucking upload it.
I had to size it.
I had to painfully sit there and decided if I wanted to pay the money or not.
And then I had to fucking press the button.
Rema says, well, the baby grew and it didn't fit.
Yeah, that's what happens with those.
That's the yeah.
So part of the fun.
I think, OK, so I've just OK, as a side business that might actually be profitable, I think
you probably could sell these jumpers in America, right?
Because these are really cheap because they produce a load of them for the Royal Navy and
they have they have a specification.
They have an MOD specification.
They have to be made with British wool and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, anyway.
And they have to be like particularly hard wearing.
Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.
I don't think there is just a lineup of people wanting to wear British wool, robbing a bank.
Hold up.
So the thing is, they're actually really durable.
They're really warm.
They're really good and they're really cheap because they have to make fucking loads of
them for the Royal Navy, right?
So why could you not just buy them in England?
Because I don't think you can buy them elsewhere because they're military surplus, but you
can buy them bulk here, then put a new fucking label on them saying fucking Billy Big Bulls,
Fancy, Jumper, B. Steve Jobs.
You're a twat.
You want to be Steve Jobs.
Let's fucking go.
That might be a long name to put on the on the neck.
Is that the URL?
Yeah, whatever.
You guys, you guys understand marketing better than I do.
You fucking tell me, right?
So then you put your own fucking thing in the neck of Rue, right?
And then put a fancy swing tag on it and then wrap it up in brown fucking paper, right?
Which you can get a warehouse, just get a bunch of people to do that.
And then you fucking sell that shit for $200.
And believe me, that would be, you would be getting a very healthy margin on that.
Nobody wears turtlenecks is the problem.
Okay, so we have that's a very, that's like peak hipster.
You could stand at the front of your local college and flog them and at a pop up stand,
maybe.
I mean, if it was 19, I mean, it's very more profitable than being a Cosmos father.
They tell us fucking face it academia is all over that look.
You could sell them like the whole tough week.
No, no, no, you need to paraphrase it is one of those like beanies that don't go over your
ear, the ones that are like itsy bitsy.
Yeah, like rolled up thing that the silo's way that with a year.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Or we should we should brand that square hat with the dangly thing.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
Maybe we should.
If you were a game and nodes square hat with a dangly thing at graduation, that that would
be respect.
I don't think I'm not sure you graduate and do you graduate from a postgraduate?
No, I think you just up on stage and then you got to wear robes and then did it.
I don't know.
You could get one of those.
You could get like a giant gold medallion with the chain and put that over your.
Even they just say thanks for the cash, Egypt.
And then they tell you fuck off.
Fuck off.
Enjoy your that would be funny to do with your watching bullshit.
Good luck out there.
The world's moved down while you've been in here.
Fucking idiot.
I am.
Yeah, I had a whole thing where I was I needed to debug some stuff on the server the other
day very urgently.
And it was literally like the only place I could.
Well luckily there's the fucking loads of buildings now in central London that are owned
by University College London that I can swipe a pass go into and there's free fucking Wi-Fi,
which is great.
Actually very high strongly recommend a PhD is a very expensive way of getting free Wi-Fi
throughout London.
And then you just like sat there with all these like you're just like fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck, fuck, like in the corner of like essentially a library.
They're all libraries.
There's just loads of loads.
You see how it has like fucking 19 libraries or the fuck anyway.
That's probably more than it has whatever anyway.
And you're just like, there's no like what the fuck am I doing with my life more than
being my age in the like huddling the corner of a library.
Well there's all these fucking kids sorry with their lives ahead of them.
And you're just like, why aren't the fucking ports mapping properly?
And you're like the life of a validator man.
Fucking.
It's like I'm actually 24.
This is just how it's aged me, you know, fucking.
I'm actually 20.
Do you know what it's really weird as well?
You talk to undergraduates and they're talking about like, like, like I can remember it and
it is very real.
Like I don't want to diminish it like it's fucking stressful being a student in your
final year and whatnot and looking at the world of work and being like fuck, what am
I going to do?
I need to fucking pay my rent and shit.
But like it feels baffling, you know, when you've been doing this shit for too long.
And you're just like, oh yeah, yeah, imagine not having to just buy default fucking work
like that it's this new thing that you're worried about.
You definitely want to do.
Fuck.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Like do you ever like look back at your misspent career in tech and be like and then you like
I guess is what you do when you see somebody who's on a different point of their career,
right?
They haven't even started their career in tech and you're just like, you should do it, obviously,
but it is a Faustian bargain.
Young Padawan.
Only in blockchain.
Don't watch your blockchain.
Whatever you do, don't watch your blockchain.
Just stay away from that.
Just stay the fuck away from that basically would be my recommendation.
I was coming back to Schultz's comment on Kujira and Asposys and market caps and all
that kind of stuff.
I was just back on CoinGecko looking at that data.
That's actually you're right.
They definitely flip position in terms of market cap with Kujira at 168 million and
Osmo at 166.
But the trading volume per day is almost 20x on Osmo.
I got 4x from what I was looking at.
I got Kujira looks like it's about 1 million and Osmosis is about 4 million per day.
Kujira and CoinGecko shows Kujira at 600,000 and Osmo at 10 million.
Interesting.
I looked at the different websites.
I went straight to the source.
There must be different.
I don't know.
CoinGecko might be getting from God knows where they get their...
It's fine.
Research, showdown.
I'm just restating what's on CoinGecko.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I'm really curious on the actual volume on each thing.
I know Osmosis drives the majority of actual moves.
But because it actually goes back into one of the news items, which I don't really want
to talk about, but one of the news items this week was that something comes to the realization
that Osmo isn't the real hub.
This is Rama's.
Rama says that bots trade on Osmo only.
Sure.
No, but there's no doubt about it.
You make that case for any of these.
You're doing that bots trade on Kujira as well.
You know, at this point, I am all of...
Crypto is just one big bottom.
It's always just like a circle stake.
I also am like, at this point, when we have a kind of, we're all drinking beer fireside
chat, we really should just have Rama and Ben on.
Because all we're doing is talking to the chat, which is Rama and Ben.
Yeah.
That's not a bad idea, honestly.
And reading their news, which...
Anyway, so I guess, Sunny, he's coming back.
There's a...
I'll put a link in the show notes to both his tweet as well as there's a link to the
Commonwealth, or not Commonwealth.
It's on the Adam Cosmos...
Did we mention that?
What the hack chat is?
That's what I'm doing right now.
900,000.
That's what I'm doing right now.
You pay attention.
So you said...
Get in there.
You said that kind of has sort of...
I'm trying to bring it back on Rails.
Smoothly, smoothly.
Yeah.
And to the news segment.
So smoothly, in fact.
That Noel fell asleep.
Yeah.
Noel certainly...
Should we talk about the news?
Yeah.
I made that presentation.
That's how smooth it is.
So the fun thing about this piece of news, right?
So the piece of news is that...
Why do we have to derail everything of progress on this episode?
I didn't realize that you're doing this.
It was very smooth, very smooth.
So Noel's kind of cocked us up.
Let's shit on it now.
Osmosis, right?
Isn't part of the Atomic Economic Zone.
Once a bit of the pie, Rama's words there.
I'm using them verbatim.
Thank you, Rama.
Requesting 900K atoms to use as protocol and liquidity.
Osmosis.
The fun thing about reading this news item in particular is that when I...
Back to the previous point about people we should just have on the podcast.
When I was reading the links that Rama had posted to this piece, I just discovered...
Ben Davis' thoughts on this exact piece of news on the thread.
And was like, that's interesting.
Thank you, Ben.
Maybe the real circle of stake was the viewers we discovered along the way.
What was his piece of news on this?
Oh, just that Ben wrote a quite substantial write-up on the post that Sonny had posted on the atom forum.
Oh, yeah.
I do see Bendy one.
Anyway, so I'll put a link to that prop.
So, yeah.
So anyway, I mean, also increase...
The comment was increase Osmos TVL by 10% increase the atom.
And ST atom stride atom liquidity by 50%.
I thought that the...
I read through a bunch of the comments associated to this and both stride supporting this.
And I saw Bendy's and Robo's comment associated this.
There's so many people that in this thread culling out that the idea that Osmos has become a consumer chain as a part of this prop.
And I thought that was just fascinating that that had like that came up where that any...
So the AES or this idea that we're trying to be able to take this source of wealth within the cosmos.
And so therefore anything that gets used to that source of wealth has to be a consumer chain.
And I think in my eyes defeats the whole fucking purpose of this ecosystem.
Well, and like, sorry, continue with your talk.
No, that was it.
It's just fascinating that like, if you went back two years, I know the baron, all this type of stuff,
but if you went back two years, this idea that if anybody wants to take a liquidity or therefore they have to be a consumer chain
and we have one validator set, it goes like...
I would never would have thought that conversation would have happened 18 months ago.
It's just interesting what drives that.
Yeah, it's driven by DJs rather than by...
Well, it's kind of...
Yeah, well, it's a bit like, I don't know, it's a bit Lord of the Rings where I have my precious.
And precious, like this precious is that we have this huge amount of like, we have this huge value that we've created in this thing
and we're trying to figure out how to protect it.
And so anybody who wants to come and take a piece of that, like, then we instantly clam up and that we have to...
We have a method with ICS to be able to use a position to take advantage of those consumer chains, right?
Or to be able to make them an income generating type of source for my precious.
I believe you're actually talking about rent.
I believe you're talking about becoming a rentier class.
Was that me?
Well, so it's essentially rent seeking behavior, isn't it?
Where you say, I have capital, I would like rent for my capital.
You want my capital, so I'm going to demand rent in exchange for any marginal benefit extracted from my capital.
But that exists anyway, right?
You could do that just by having LPs and having...
There's processes to be able to do that.
What this really is, is not that I'm taking rent for that capital, but I'm taking ownership of your home and renting it back to you from an ICS perspective.
So it's like a traditional bag kick, actually, isn't it?
But ICS doesn't take ownership.
I don't agree.
They don't take ownership?
No, they just provide the security, right?
They still...
Well, you're a lot...
It still has all of its own token.
If anything, I think ICS chains are taking advantage of Adam.
They're basically getting free fucking validating.
So they're having their cake and eating it too.
I don't agree.
They're taking advantage.
Except their cake's a shit cake.
Well, but it's not that...
Yeah.
There is no cake.
That's the point.
They have no...
Fucking gummy bear.
I don't know, but...
Well, it's not a fucking gummy bear either, no.
It's nothing.
They have nothing.
Well, they have their nothing and it gets to exist for free, basically.
Yeah, but that's the point.
It's nothing.
If you have...
No, that's...
If that stops...
No.
If that stops, their party stops.
What do they owe?
What you were just saying is that Adam was taking ownership and thus reaping the benefit
in a rentier-like behavior.
Yeah, I'm pretty solidator-safe.
I'm saying that Adam doesn't get fucking anything out of it.
They get to provide security basically for free.
True.
No, they do get something out of it because they can...
They get to say, oh, we've got an...
They can stop their chain and then you go to zero.
What?
How much closer to zero can some of those things get?
Okay, fair point.
That's like near at the bottom of the long term.
Okay, my point is, look, I don't give a shit that much about all of this complete libertarian
stuff, as you know, but a big portion of this entire fucking circle stake is supposed to
be against the idea that somebody can tell you what to do.
And fundamentally, although it would result in a systemic collapse of Adam, when you
agree to ICS, you are under the cosh of the Adam economic zone.
Right?
It is like being a state in the US and saying, we will accept federal jurisdiction.
It is conceptually similar.
You have like, okay, I'm fucking really mixing metaphors here, but whatever.
Some stuff you get to work out for yourself, some stuff you don't.
Fundamentally, if you fuck up enough, the US Army comes knocking at your door, right?
And in the case of permissionless blockchains, which are primarily economic in nature, the
only thing they can really fucking do is shut you down, right?
But fundamentally, on a really serious level, you don't own anything, right?
So long as you're renting your security, you are a renter, right?
It is like renting a flat versus owning a flat, something like that.
At the end of the day, your landlord can, under certain situations, perhaps ruinously
for themselves because of some economic circumstance around throwing you out, right?
And it might be economically ruinous for them to do so for whatever reason.
You might sue them.
Who knows?
But they can throw you out, right?
That is always a risk.
And that's like...
I don't agree with that analogy at all because there has to be an exchange of something to
be a renter like handing you a fucking empty envelope is not renting anything.
Well, so I think you're correct.
I think the problem is people are...
They're saying that they're going to pay rent, right?
Like, that's the big argument that they're saying, all right, so by taking us on, you're
going to earn all this rent.
And the reality is they're not actually fulfilling it, right?
Okay, but doesn't that make my point...
Certificate a renting analogy, but doesn't that make my concern about risk even more
about it?
You're in the position of being a renter and you're a deadbeat, right?
So not only are you in the weak asymmetric power position of being a renter of the thing
that keeps the party going, but you're also a deadbeat renter who isn't paying any fucking
rent.
I think that's a risk.
That's what you're saying is that they're hostages to Adam.
I don't think they're renting.
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah.
But a renter is a hostage to a landlord.
I don't know if that's fair though, because I don't actually see a reality in which the
validators go, you know what, neutron hasn't paid us.
We're running on this extra hardware.
Fuck them.
Let's vote them out and then kick neutron out.
I would probably vote on that.
I'd be like, I'm ready to rock.
Well, not necessarily against neutron, but like...
I mean, eventually, if it continued the way it was going, it would happen, right?
Yeah, so you think that would happen?
There would be such...
People tend to shut down Chihuahua like three times.
The only chain that I'm aware of that's been shut down is Cerberus, Kerberus, whatever.
Yeah.
And that even shut down was contentious.
That wasn't even 100% voting.
Shut down is being...
Shut down is separate being kicked out of the ICS.
Like, you would...
Because back to the Adam validators set, I know that we've made...
There's a ton of rules and I guess provisions around what validators have to participate
and how much ownership they have.
There's...
They've broken the kind of the idea of having a validator set to be able to make this structure
fit, right?
Because the incentives aren't there.
Now, eventually, not saying it's where we are, but if those pressure gets higher and
higher and the number of ICS chains grow and the losses keep going, then those rules would
change again.
And at some point, is it possible that they say, fuck this chain, get this chain out of
here?
And they have to move off?
Yeah, of course they would, right?
Like, I mean, that's...
I would think, why wouldn't that happen?
Like, they would... somebody would find that and say, we're going to get this out of here.
It's not valuable.
It doesn't mean the chain stops.
It just means that export...
It just gets kicked out of the renting situation.
I don't like that analogy.
Ben, I just say anything at this whole conversation.
He is fucking walking around in circles in his room.
I just can't fucking understand.
You still embed them, so it doesn't matter.
I just can't fucking understand why people understand your keys, your crypto, but somehow
people in Cosmos have got this fucking idea into their heads that, you know, not your
ledger.
Yeah, totally fine.
Your crypto.
It's like, no, you run the ledger or you don't fucking run the ledger.
150, 200 validators is already not decentralized.
It's already fucking theater.
It's a complete joke.
It is massively vulnerable.
The only reason that, you know, is that luckily 200 people can never agree on anything, ever.
That's the only reason that there isn't any major risk factor from a 200 validator set.
And then it's like, okay, we're going to centralize all the remaining chains into this and this
big basket of risk.
And that's totally cool.
It's like, yeah, okay, at that point, let's just fucking give up.
Like IBC is the party.
The entire party in the Cosmos ecosystem is IBC.
And ICS is just fundamentally, it takes IBC and it just makes a mockery of it.
I don't know.
I just don't know how to put it any better than that.
Like I think it's a joke.
The two technologies are fundamentally antithetical to one another.
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
I don't want to consider them antithetical, but I do think it kind of like makes you squint
a little bit, right?
Like mesh security, I think fits pretty well within the IBC narrative.
It does.
Sure.
ICS doesn't hit that.
Harder and more difficult.
But yeah, I agree.
I love Sonny's comment.
So he's going to, what would be a suitable form of alignment that doesn't involve adopting
an immature technology like ICS v1?
Working blockchain.
We deal with it.
We're sure technologies, my man.
Gold ratio said, why in the earth would the hub give us most of $6 million more in liquidity
when they can keep it in house on neutron and duality?
Well, part of the reason is that osmosis is 93% of the actual transient.
I don't even know how to use neutron.
Yeah.
Actually, I had a look, I had a Google duality after that comment because I was like, what
the hell is that?
It's a slipknot album, isn't it?
I don't know.
I don't really know a slipknot.
I mean, I literally, I know that one song that always comes on when you go to a metal
silent disco at a festival, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, that one.
That's a slipknot, isn't it?
I quite like slipknot to be honest.
I haven't listened to it in a very long time, but in like high school, that was my jam.
I was more of a system of a down kind of guy.
I know what you got.
What is actually launched on neutron?
I am not aware of anything other than like Astroport.
Do they, do they do anything else?
Does anyone know?
I don't, I'm looking to do it right now.
I'm not a validator there.
So because I ain't on the old at home on the old at home.
Tom.
Hey, what the fuck is this bathroom incident about?
I read the thing and it's, it's just looks like someone's memeing hard.
The old coach.
Yeah.
I, so the news item here is that there is a Twitter link and then shown us from Oxdow,
which I don't know who this person is.
I don't know if he knows who this is.
Yeah.
It isn't, isn't it is the name of the, of grandpa sister, grandpa Simpson's squadmate
who died while taking the, when you don't have to, you know, when they have the top
team in the Simpsons.
To obscure.
So yeah.
Coach.
He died.
He got her near carrying the art out of the, out of the Chateau, right?
Fuck.
I want to eat your own Simpsons fans.
Coach does a, a spaces like on, I think it's like a Friday night thing in the States.
It's like, it's like on Saturday here.
And I don't, I'm not sure if he still does it, man, but I used to listen to it sometimes
and I was driving places and it was fucking funny.
But it's, yeah, but it's, it's like the whole thing's fucking satire.
So I can only assume that this is satire as well, but, you know, it does.
I really like that there.
Conversation starter.
What, what goes on in the bathroom at Osmo con?
Yeah.
It was a little bit, it was a little bit direct, I thought.
Well, it's not direct cause it doesn't even talk about the hell happened or who it is.
But, but anyway, I feel like it's one of those scenes where there's like, you know, there's
a whole scene and then like everybody leaves and then someone comes out of the store and
it's like, it's coach.
I had to leave a comment, of course.
So what's the, sorry, I just keep going back to cause it mentioned Osmo again.
I was just like, I can't stop thinking about that rent, man.
I'm going to make this analogy work for fuck's sake.
No, fuck the analogy.
The analogy.
If I could just make them understand my point of view.
The analogy.
Fuck the analogy.
Anyway, we're okay now, but we're in a position now where like the during, during the, even
the tail end of the bull, even a while ago, you know, the Osmo was the real hub was like
a meme, but also like, you know, don't let your memes just be dreams.
You know, but I would say that the, the, you know, the Osmo is Osmo's relevance, right?
Not to say it's market, not to mention it's market cap was so heavily correlated with
the success of the wider ecosystem that, you know, is, is like, I think it's a very bearish
indicator, isn't it?
That this is where Osmo is right now.
And like, obviously there are newer dexism, what not coming in the space and all that
kind of thing that, that's all sort of happened in the meantime.
So if a bear, if a bull market rolled around tomorrow, would we expect to see Osmo back
in that conversation of like the hub or do you think other things have taken its place
now at this point?
To be clear, like, I don't, I don't think that was considered in terms of ICS.
I think that was one of the, that was just a commentary from, from individuals on that
group.
I don't think I would not think that the Osmo team would consider that at all.
Well, of course not.
No, but, but, but like, you know, the fact that the fact that smart assets will even
raise that I think is a very, I think is a bearish indicator on Osmo, but it's also
I think a bearish indicator on the whole cosmos.
What, which part?
I don't know that I agree.
So yeah, like all, all dexes aren't doing well right now, right?
So of course Osmo going down, whereas Adam, like, I think Osmo is still mostly known within
like cosmos active users, right?
Whereas Adam is not.
Adam has like coin bureau that talks about it and like coin telegraph.
This isn't in that scene.
So without that marketing branch and without like the central exchanges allowing the trading.
And so like people understand the narrative of Adam, but they, they won't be able to see
it for Osmo as much for the people who actually, you know, used it.
I think it's true that Osmo felt like the actual hub.
I think that what could have saved Osmo is actually instituting some sort of IBC fees
earlier or at all as it were.
And then like, like in my mind, what should be happening is IBC should be getting fees
and that should go split between like validators and relays themselves.
The blind share, in my opinion, towards relays because relays are the ones actually paying
them.
But like if Osmo is doing, I don't remember the exact number, let's say a hundred thousand
IBC transactions a day, which I think is reasonable for what they're doing.
And it was, you know, one cent each, that's still what, $10,000, I guess $1,000 of real
quote unquote real yield per day.
Shilty thousand dollars a day.
I know, like I shot pretty low there.
I was just doing spitballing numbers, but still.
Shilts, I was having similar thoughts earlier on in the POTO.
They were controversial.
I didn't raise them.
So what I think would be like a cool proposition would be if they eliminated like trade fees
altogether.
Obviously, this, this is like, so that affects LP and stuff like that.
But if you eliminated trade fees and had no deposit fees, but had withdrawal fees, sort
of like what, or maybe have, you know, some, some lower make, I found another one, some
maker and taker fees, but basically like encouraging people to bring token in and discouraging
them to take it out.
So having to do something with it was, and get rid of the fucking inflation, man, like
get, just chop that inflation up.
Like there's so much pressure on that token from inflation.
It's not funny.
I mean, okay.
So they already kind of have that, right?
I think that the big reason why, I think if you were to, if I were to have to make an
argument for the one reason why Osmo's prices tank so much, it's because of their 14 day
withdrawal, right?
Like after Tara went down and I saw what, cause I was directly affected by it.
And I couldn't withdraw for 14 days after UST went under, haven't used Osmo since, like
that's way too much risk.
Like if they need to, they need to figure something out better with that.
Cause that's basically what they're doing, right?
They're instituting a form of.
You can, you can deposit so easy.
You'll get rewards every epoch.
Oh, but yeah, but if you, if you undo, then yeah, you get four, you, you lose the yield
for 14 days and it could take 14 days to withdraw.
It's just not the same as good staking staking.
I mean, yeah, Osmo has super fluid staking or whatever it's called, um, which, which
is you, you stake whenever you're doing LPing, right?
But that's such a big ask compared to, I, I'm not aware of really any other ecosystem
that has that, where you're kind of required to be in there if you deposit.
Also in general, like back to your point, like LPing is like relatively high risk and
the reward has to be there.
And it's like that much less attractive in the current market.
So that kind of needs to be, yeah, back to the, when you have inflation, like running
roughshod over your token value.
There's just this colossal internal disincentives to LPing within your system even before, even
if the, the, the period was five days, three days, you're still just like, well, fundamentally,
if you're not making money, he gives a shit how many days it is.
Like, what's the point?
You know, there are other safer ways of, of, of making money.
Okay.
Not loads, but there are, they exist.
Well, the irony of course is that the L paid because of that fucking risk.
Yeah, exactly.
The irony of course is that, you know, crypto is supposed to be saving, like making things
faster, right?
Like, oh, we want to use crypto instead of banks, because banks will take three to five
days to actually do a transfer.
And then it takes 14 days to withdraw your money from, let's just call it a high yield
savings account.
It's not obviously, but like the comparison.
No, absolutely not.
No.
Well, but also the, the, the idea that there's this crypto idea, right?
Which is that nobody, this is so different to the existing financial system.
You know, it's only comparable to itself.
Is it fuck everybody who is investing money in things like LPs and they do see
themselves as investors, you know, albeit with a higher risk thing.
Of course, they're comparing it to government bonds, to savings accounts, all
these other things like, like, and so yeah, it's a complete, it is a bit of a
fantasy, isn't it?
I think it is back to that lack of under, it's back to the kind of believing
your own hype and not understanding like where everybody else is at, like the,
the macro, I suppose, maybe.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I, we, we, I L paid some of, of what I made really, really early on.
In the cosmos and fuck me.
I had to write a bunch of code to work out the tax burden on what I ended up
making, which was like a couple hundred pounds.
And it took me like three days to write the code and to come up with a number.
And I was like, I'm never doing this shit again.
It's just not worth it.
Yeah.
It was the same for me.
Whenever I put it through, I think coin tracker, it was like, you made like
$1.2 million and I was like, okay, so I'm down like many thousands of dollars
this year.
I'm pretty sure I'm not up $1.2 million just because of the way that the LPs
would adjust and it didn't know to account for it.
And I was just like, oh, Jesus God.
That was exactly it.
I handed it, I handed like our, our coinly account like, and I just like,
that sounds right.
I think that's the one.
Yeah.
And then my accounts were like, Hey, so it says, you made $700,000.
And I was like, no, I think I made about $290.
And they're like, but it says all these.
And I'm like, I think those are just all of the transactions that made up all
the things that gave me fees.
Yeah.
We didn't make, it was a complete waste of time.
But, and then I had to write, yeah, I think to work it out.
And it was like, yep, it's like $290.
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Massive.
But, yeah, everybody watching the clock, I can see it.
So can anyone explain to me what in the fuck is going on with MantaDow?
Is something going on with it?
With the, so look, it's very hard to understand.
There's