Right. So you just use the headers.
So you write a little ACF as, Hey, I'm looking for this header or this one or this one or
this one or this one. And you can write it to different back ends to support that.
That makes sense.
Does it?
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent Validator teams.
Oh, welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from increasingly tired and
beardy Validator teams. At least in my case, there's been a lot of culture going on this week.
Yeah, a lot of culture, actually.
Yeah, a lot of culture. Well, I mean, mainly from one third of the current trifecta, although I
suppose one, one could assume that shortsies on vacation won't dox wear.
Oh, is he's not coming?
Might be more beach based than museum based, but presumably some, some culture will be
happening there as well. So actually, I guess half of the show has been engaging in
culture where half of the show has engaged in degeneracy, presumably for the remaining
for the seven days since the last show. So yeah.
Nothing like building a new deck for 12 weeks of your life and then celebrating by leaving the
house. Going on vacation.
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not saying that I'm like, yeah.
Maybe you just.
Yeah. No, it wasn't like a reference to something else. No, that was literally, I does say that the
light is very weird where you are. And then I've just realized that's probably sunrise, isn't
that?
Yeah, I've got the window open and there's actually a ray of light directly in front of my
face. So if I like put my face into it, I just get that fucking.
August here, which is supposedly summer, but in reality, it's like autumn.
It's starting to cool a little bit.
Oh, autumn is August. It's usually fucked.
How the shit here still?
So it's pretty different. The UK is not like a big country.
I guess it's quite long, but it's not like massive.
But in the south of England, towards the coast, it's definitely the case
that you get a proper summer that August is summer.
Everywhere and the further you go north of the country,
but some of you are in Scotland, it's like 15 degrees and you might get some sunshine.
Okay. So one of Scotland's summers, it doesn't start in the early rates,
which is short of mid-G. It gets mid-G in May, April-May.
That's my understanding.
But I'm pretty sure, so if you, somebody maybe before we will get into Null's
News Corner in a second, but... There is no News Corner.
Yeah, well, that itself is news.
That itself is news, we'll talk about that.
Yeah. So somebody with better knowledge of Gaelic folklore can like,
correct me on this one, but my understanding is that essentially two
seasons in traditional, I guess, Gaelic storytelling tradition,
which is like winter and summer. And my understanding is summer essentially
begins on the 1st of May.
But I'm not well versed enough to remember exactly when fucking winter begins.
So I know for a fact...
First of June.
I mean, that's also why May Day in the UK, I guess, do you guys have May Day in the US?
We don't.
Okay, so May Day is traditionally the beginning of summer.
It's like the end of the spring festivals, although I suppose it's considered
the spring festival weirdly, although it's fucking obviously going into summer,
given it's the fifth month.
But anyway, Scotland basically has, as far as I can tell, as well as the north
of England, basically two seasons.
You're basically descending into winter or you're coming out of winter into summer.
So you get a little chunk of summer, but then the rest of it is just, you know...
Yeah, that was another word for winter.
Whatever, man.
I like to say, it feels like a very, very distant, very, very distant time that I
saw some sunshine in the south of France.
So, yeah, is that an artifact shirt?
This is an artifact shirt.
I do like a rainbow.
Yeah, I think it was a Pride Month one, but it's very cool.
I really like the color.
I like it too.
I really have t-shirts that have been given to me at conferences or around t-shirts.
Artifact, even recognizing the public, like, you know, hotness, the events.
Pride Week.
Well, like the zeitgeist.
What?
The word you're looking for is zeitgeist.
Oh, is it?
Yes.
Sure.
Cool.
Yeah.
Good job, artifacts.
Good job.
Mergekings.
Perfect.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's a great t-shirt.
Love the color.
Don't have any other t-shirts in this color.
So, wear this fucking t-shirt all the time.
It's great to show that artifacts are, once again, much better at branding and...
Oh, and all of us.
Yeah, for sure.
Really, all of it, to be honest.
We actually do have a point on this on the agenda for today, but I'm aware that we have
a new... we have an adherence to format is required.
That's what we are.
So, no, take away the news.
The news is that our news researcher quit after one week.
Did he quit or are we just... do we just not receive our deliverable?
I believe that... so this is a two-pronged attack.
I believe that, A, we didn't pay our invoice and B...
But it's not even a month.
We received no deliverable.
At the end of the month, what was the agreed upon...
What was the agreed upon cadence of said point?
Well, there's no contract written.
Oh, well then, what the hell?
Geez.
Short views on the...
Round of angry.
Maybe.
In anticipation...
I can't find it.
In anticipation of the fact that we singularly failed to actually get our asses together on
Doudow, you may notice the title of this podcast.
True.
We are going to...
By the end of 90 minutes, we can knock this on the headlads.
In true cosmos...
Orama is here saying that we're wrong, but in true cosmos fashion, we should ignore all
the facts and just continue down this diatribe of just him running on a second.
Well, I mean, I'm on the spreadsheet and I don't see shit in here.
We're being called out.
Is there a clone of the spreadsheet?
Or more...
Is the agenda what he's referring to?
Did one of you do that?
No, but it says also...
I thought that was all shit that we had left over.
But wait, is he on the spreadsheet?
I don't know.
Has Rama...
Wait, is Harba protocol hack was that two weeks ago?
Which one?
Was the Harba protocol hack two weeks ago?
Yeah.
Well, last week is last week, right?
Because it has the friends.txt up that we talked about, which is already fucked, right?
That tree's got that in the mysterious agenda that's not here.
So there are some points on the sheet for two weeks ago.
So now I'm wondering whether Rama has actually delivered the news.
No, we're true.
They drew the day-to-day fashion.
Peter, you've lost the news.
Actually, he's counted, rather than counting one forward for the week after last week,
he's counted one backward.
So it's not a failure of basic maths, but actually in Australia, obviously, being on
the other side, being in the southern hemisphere, the spreadsheet moves backwards.
We had done seven with NL in the early days because we, in the northern hemisphere, so
we're on episode 76.
But in the southern hemisphere, they would be, strictly speaking, on episode 74, we
ought not to use the northern hemisphere classification.
Another theory is Rama wants to go back down to one, and then we end this fucking show.
I mean, that's what it is.
The joke was 75, and then he goes 74 down to one, and then at one, that's it.
We're done.
But the joke would still be on listeners because that's still 18 months worth of content.
At least there's an end in sight.
Yeah, I mean, at least there's a defined ending.
It's better than, I mean, what else can you do?
In the words of Jeff Rose and stock, nothing's forever, dude.
So I really like remembering one-liners from people that nobody will actually have any
frame reference for.
So you can just say, oh, and the words are, and it's like a name, just like un-googleable
random name.
It's like, oh my goodness.
That part's not important.
But if you put the button.
I see we're all clicking around the 74th.
So Rama, he didn't pick up on the whole friends.tech Twitter logins to whatever you got posted as a
get-in message.
Oh yeah, actually, I've put that in my notes.
Yeah.
You did?
Yeah.
Well, I've bookmarked a, I have this little notes thing here with the, you know, the notes
app on Apple, you know, I could just share shit to it.
Well, from your, from Twitter.
Yeah.
So I make like a little, you can share it from Twitter.
Share directly to notes.
Yeah.
On the iPhone.
Thanks, Apple, whoever's in charge of that these days.
I guess that's called X.
Can we just, no, we can't.
X.com they have now.
Yeah.
So mommy Laura on Twitter has, has made a post regarding all of the, all of the pitfalls of friend tech and it has a
graphic on there called not friend.tech.
So yeah.
Flash.
But the headline is unmasking the truth behind friend tech.
F T.
F T operates like a Ponzi scheme under the guise of a social experiment capitalizing on the recklessness of influences buckle up.
This is going to be a long one.
And she goes through just a bunch of shit.
The first thing being that the founders have launched other social experiments that don't really last very long on Twitter and
Twitter related things.
So the three projects that would be their two previous failed experiments in this project have a couple of things in common.
They all call themselves social experiments.
They all have a pyramid structure and they were all operated for a short amount of time before being shut down.
So that would be the previous two.
But yeah, there is.
It's, man, it's, it's hard to find.
But obviously there is the privacy issues.
I think last week we were saying, I forget what we had in the notes, but it was you could log in via like social network, right?
But is this the one that they would they were asking for the mnemonic like in the wallet or was that something else?
No, it wasn't that.
It wasn't that.
Say airdrop.
Oh yeah.
No, no, no, no, it wasn't say airdrop.
No, no, no, they weren't asking for it.
Desmos.
Oh, Desmos.
That's right.
Do you remember like it was like a shit how that never shipped.
Yeah.
Well, that was a while ago, but I thought there was another one.
I thought there was another one recently and there was there was something else.
But anyway.
So, so, right.
So it's always good that this research comes out after everybody puts in, you know, all the information of these fucking apps.
Well, I never used it because I opened the page and it told me I had to connect to something and then I was like, fuck, there's a man.
Yeah.
And like, you know, what is it based on Ethereum?
I don't know.
It sounded like expensive fees.
No, it's on base, right?
It's on Coinbase.
It's on Coinbase's base.
Oh, right.
Is it?
Yeah, it's on Coinbase's base chain.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know.
I opened up the, and it was like web only, like mobile only, and I opened up the page and then it all seemed very difficult.
And then I had other things to do.
But, but the, so that was just the, she was a shitting on, or whoever that was, they were just shitting on the overall thing.
But, but I think what happened was somehow somebody pulled something off where they ended up tying Twitter user names down to actual wallet addresses, which is like, I mean, it's a, it's a breach.
It's not the most end of the world type of thing, but whatever it's not like.
Yeah.
Well, I think they pulled like the whole, the whole database.
Yeah.
It was like 150,000 or something like that.
Yeah.
Which is a significant number by the way.
But then the flip side of that is like most of these, most of these networks that are currently working on chain, you know, you're already tying an identity to a wallet.
So, yeah, no, I'm with you.
Yeah.
Especially like we're tying a IPF or IPNS and whatever else to a wallet, right?
There's always like a couple of this kind of, it's kind of like,
Oh yeah.
shock revelation.
It turns out this stuff was on the blockchain all along.
There was one of those in June or two, if I remember.
Yeah.
Some fucking idiots that decided to be unprofitable by launching it.
Should have, should have, should have had a Twitter integration.
They would have been there.
Well, they changed their API.
Didn't they?
And start charging you for it.
Like again, we launched.
So like if we had launched, well, if we'd launched earlier, we would have put in the integration and then got rugged by Twitter.
So it wouldn't have fucking mattered.
And yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, so can we, can we agree to not pay Rama since you put it in the wrong tab?
Is that good enough?
I'm pretty sure that 25% probably wouldn't be in the spirit of things.
I got to look after my ferret Aussie fellow.
I'm kidding.
All right.
What else we got?
Well, time machine to 74.
First on the list, we've got the Harbor protocol exploited for 250 K of collateral.
This would be their Comdex stablecoin, CMS T currently about 200,000 less collateral has been provided than CMS T minted 300 K versus 500 K minted.
This is previously over collateralized coin.
Isn't anymore.
Yeah.
I mean, fuck man, it's like a hack every day, right?
There is.
Yeah.
We don't, we don't really see like, so Comdex is a, what's interestingly different about this is that Comdex is in the cosmos ecosystem.
And it's pretty rare that we see like actually an exploit in the cosmos ecosystem.
So I'd be wondering, I'd be interested to know what the actual details are behind this being exploited if it was, you know, like a vulnerability somewhere or one of those dumb ones where someone just gave out the admin key.
Right.
Or there was a shared key set somewhere, right?
Yeah.
That's so funny.
I can't even see, if you actually go to the heart, like I see the tweet, the tweet is there.
If I go to the actual Harbor protocol Twitter account, I don't see that in the timeline.
Is it because I'm stupid fucking, did they get rid of like time based timelines and Twitter completely?
Is that gone?
Is it now like, is it now all about this stupid algorithm or whatever the fuck they're doing?
I mean, I think that's been the case for many years.
Well, you used to be able to switch back and forth, right?
After Elon got it, did he, did he remove the whole regular, I just want to see a fucking time based timeline.
Like why do I?
It wasn't a time based timeline.
You had to do that in tweet deck.
Yeah.
Scroll down the time.
You could, but in the actual Twitter account, you could, it was always like, it was defaulted back, but you could always select it.
It was a painting house, but you could do it.
So anyway, I can't, I can't even find that tweet in the, in their whole history here, which is crazy going back to September of last year.
So was there, was this like, did they say why?
I don't see the follow up on this.
They say it like it exploded.
Like, do they know how?
It doesn't say it just says from what we've gathered so far, the exploiters have used the following address to perform all actions.
Are they, are they, is this a contract that sits on Comdex?
Is that what it is?
Oh, wait, I'm sorry.
Oh, I had, I'm sorry, I was in a browser that was logged in.
And that's why this was all fucked up.
Okay.
All right.
I see.
So they're, they're in lossing.
They have a couple of addresses about where this came from.
Yeah.
So this, you know, in the, in the, um, harbor protocol tweet, there is not a lot of information, but they say that they'll follow up with a, you know, post mortem.
Yeah.
So yeah.
A detailed incident report.
Dang it.
That sucks.
What was the value?
What'd they say?
200.
Is it already gone?
Like they, it's out of the pools, everything else?
Like, is it a value that they stole and just sitting around or are they, it's already flushed out?
I guess they've sucked out the, uh, that collateral through.
Nice.
So what was it they had the, uh, so it was in the ST Adam, Luna and wrapped Matic vaults.
I see.
I got you.
Yeah.
Okay.
And Ramas does not probably say like 250k like this is sounds big in a bad market money.
Isn't it like fucking definition of.
Well, I mean, not compared to other Ecos and another other, I mean, it's small in the grand scheme of things.
You're right.
But still $1 million.
Like what the fuck?
Well, I mean, fucking like, do you ever like with this podcast I had fucking Tara, like,
like UST, how much went up in smoke?
That was billions.
Yeah, for sure.
That was, that was.
This would have been two if it wasn't for Tara.
Well, yeah.
Yeah, man.
But those billions were fuck you money.
This is like fucking paying for your noodle.
It's all related, man.
It's all related.
This one was like as an ecosystem of shit coins.
Cosmos.
Almost.
Oh my.
You're very negative on coins these last few weeks, I gotta say.
You can't just say that.
Even the ones that earn it zero.
Even the ones that do pin the bills are going to zero like an extra going to zero.
They're there.
It's up 5% today.
Zero.
Well, I mean, it's a magic number that we wanted to be.
These are our beloved small caps you're talking about sir.
What I'm saying is that after a year of losing money as a validator business, I think like
on a number of the assets that we validate, it is understandable to get a little bit crabby
about some of the assets, perhaps not being.
Hey, so a fun thing happened.
We finally deactivated.
It turned out we were running a passage validator.
I thought that we had deactivated some time ago.
Yeah, I know, right?
You're just like, what the fuck?
It turned out it was just running like a zombie.
It had read the account.
It wasn't in.
It was it was in different.
Maybe that was that 16 bucks on AWS.
You got invoiced.
Yeah.
I mean, essentially, yeah, we had we had a song we had because everything's segregated
by by various different projects and whatnot.
It was just in a different account and we were paying for it because it was but we have a
corporate account.
We pay by invoicing, right?
Convoluted, but for smaller amounts of money, they can they just bill your card still.
If you don't pay it like within a period of this, we're auto-invoiced it.
Fuck it.
And that's been happening because you just get you get like a deluge of invoices in PDF
form at the end of the month and you go like, oh, and just escape notice basically for
a few months and turn out we'd been paying a few bucks every month for the server.
So finally turned it off and then page duty and everything goes totally mental.
Yeah.
And still actually haven't been able to silence all of the alerts because one of them is written
written badly.
We have like this absolutely everything's fucked alert.
But the way it's written is really bad.
And essentially the passage box going has dropped it below a threshold.
And it's just it's just erroring and it's revealed that that alert was written wrong all along.
As well as a bunch of other alerts that just obviously went off when we turned this box
off and had just been again, just not triggering because I had wondered to be fair.
I thought, you know, I thought we had turned it off like months and months and months ago,
but I was thinking like, I don't remember disconnecting any of the data sources to our
monitoring box.
I don't remember turning off any of the alerts, but I'm not getting any alerts.
That's probably fine.
The answer was it was still just just going away.
Just sign in sign in sign in trolling away in a corner doing nothing.
The big question is, is did you unbond your?
No, he's got nine banded.
100% self-bond.
You would you would show up really well on these validator ranking scenarios.
Yeah, it didn't unbond because I would involve syncing and anywhere they're doing a new chain
on me or something.
I ain't who fucking cares.
No, no, no.
So that I assume they've relaunched the chain again.
They did.
I missed an upgrade today.
The funny thing is, is that what is, did you say the upgrades today?
There was today.
I got, I was in the car for four hours and I got an alert that was down.
I actually, I thought I staged that, but I guess I, then I realized that wasn't staged
because they ran, I guess it was a non-breaking change at a block height.
It was a non-breaking change at a block height.
So they wanted a new version of the binary in the current folder.
Right.
And so at that height, it would move forward, but anyone who was not in, I guess they didn't
have that binary basically stopped peering and I couldn't, I couldn't actually.
So my issue was that I got to the, I got to the upgrade height, quote unquote.
Um, the binary would, it was peering, but it couldn't get actually moved beyond that
block, which is understandable.
I upgraded the binary, but then I couldn't find, then it app hashed on every, every block
on the, cause maybe it was the last block.
I don't know who the fuck knows, but I couldn't actually get through it.
So I ended up, I ended up actually pulling a snapshot and just getting it back going.
So, but it was in the car for four hours and I'm looking at him like, and I was like, oh,
shit.
Cause I got the, cause my fucking Yakety sacks went off.
I told you this before, but my paid your duty call number is the Yakety sacks.
And so the Yakety sacks went off in the car and I was like, oh fuck, what is this?
And I was passing it like, oh, it's fine.
Like I could drive for four more hours.
It's fine.
It's a big deal.
Give a shit.
Yeah.
So anyway, so when I got home, I couldn't fix it.
I think similar thing on monitoring is about to go off for Mars because I think we are
literally bottom of the barrel, 75th in the Mars active set.
Yeah.
Not long left lads.
I'm going to draw.
We're going to draw.
No, he pulled out and then I got pulled in.
This was last week and I was in there for like two days.
I'm like, somebody's going to take this over some.
I'm going to mess with it.
Like I was pulling keys.
I was like, I don't want to be in this fucking thing.
I don't even care.
Like literally I had, it was like $9 on the thing, right?
Like who gives a shit?
So I let it go.
And then somebody actually, somebody actually bonded above me.
So that worked out.
Yeah.
Somebody bonded above us as well.
I mean, again, it's not much to bond above us.
I don't know.
I don't know what 20,000 on Mars is worth now.
200 bucks.
Probably less than that.
Seven bucks.
I don't know what is actually I should.
20,000 miles.
By the way, am I the only one that fucking hates Minsky on 2.0?
I hate this.
We've already covered this.
This three steps.
I may be your way that week.
We'll be back.
I might have been.
I think it's, I think it's fucking awful.
You just go to dev dot min scan that I.
Oh, let's see.
I think I honestly, I am such not a fan.
I think it's, I think it's, I think it's a horrible.
Just go to dev dot min scan dot IO.
You have a 4400 Mars, which is fuck all 228 bucks.
Yeah, you're right.
$225.
Congrats.
Nice.
That server was on AWS for a while at 5%.
It was a R5 a Excel.
That seems like a bit over 5a Excel.
So for those of you AWS nerds, you're starting to do the mass in your head.
You're thinking Ram for a chain that doesn't have many transactions.
Well, yes, as it turns out, you're also thinking, ah, but Frey, hang on a minute.
The thing that's really expensive, it's not necessarily the RAM.
It's not necessarily the compute.
It's the storage.
How much storage is the egress, right?
You're playing being more niggas, aren't you?
No, no, no, no.
That work out.
I thought was the most expensive thing that you would, you would actually have.
No, we do.
It does cost, but much.
Which is cheap, right?
It's not that much.
No, not on AWS.
Because we're also not, we're not like doing fucking virtual boxes.
We're doing attach hosts, SSD volumes in elastic block store, snap shot it, backed up, archived
to Glacier.
Lots of in hindsight, additional redundancy that was not needed for shit.
Unnecessary.
Yeah.
Like massive over engineering for three nines, four nines, five nines, uptime for corporate
clients that really care about this stuff.
Per percent of the change doesn't really matter.
Well, because the thing is, like actually it turns out that like obviously, obviously,
any downtime you have is because of fuck ups, wrangles, bookage, around upgrades.
It's not storage, right?
It's not hard drives on the whole, you know, using SSDs.
So you don't get magnetic disks failing and stuff in the same way that like I remember
in the bad old days.
So I don't know, spend a lot of money on that kind of stuff.
So anyway, in conclusion, yeah, like spending, I think the drives on that were 500 gig.
Yeah, EBS blocks, possibly bigger, maybe a TV.
Or one out.
Honestly, at that, what happened to my focus?
At that range for a whole year, you might be able to afford a Raspberry Pi to run it.
Yeah.
So I mean, this is also part of the grumpiness, I think, is, you know, you're trying to, you
like, you're like, they're not all winners.
All right.
Where's my burn rate here?
And you're like, ah, well, that passage box will be one of the, one of the burn.
I do need to, I do need to go back and I need to, I need to take the access and stuff.
I really do.
Yeah.
So the funny thing, the funny thing and why I was laughing my ass off at shutting down
passages that just today, the email came out that active validators will get an end drop
of 55,555 passage 55,555 package each package.
Yeah.
Each that's $2,800.
Is that right?
I don't know.
What's that?
That's what is it.
A nickel, but I got to say when all those drop, it's not going to be a nickel anymore.
What's a, is a passage worth something?
It was a nickel, wasn't it?
Is that what I said?
Yeah.
It was five cents or something.
When it goes on stream, swap like at the end of the week.
Oh, wait, what the fuck was that?
Oh, I was talking about Mars.
My bad.
I was talking about Mars.
I think it was on 55,555 PAS.
And it gets on Osmosis so the investors could liquidate previously.
No, did I imagine that?
Passage will be listed on Osmosis.
You're right.
It's answering.
It's going to be following the launch.
That's right.
Yeah.
I was getting confused.
Stream swap on the hour 29th.
Have any of you guys done a stream swap yet?
I keep missing them.
They're pretty fucking brief.
Yeah, me too.
I tried it on.
It was it's not say it was oh and then in power I tried an Osmo enclosure.
I could I really had missed a, I missed a fucking boat.
And what was the stream swap like?
Feel like the omniflex one happened while I was asleep.
Stream swap is like it's the new hotness when it comes to price discovery.
So instead of like just, you know, the old, come on, what they call the old mechanism
where you basically they have a big pool of tokens and just buy them out of the pool.
And the more you buy, the more the price goes up or down up and then, but it sort of also
had a time varying curve to it as well.
Whereas stream swap is you all basically pool your, your money into the stream swap and you
don't get the token straight away, but there is still like a price varying mechanism based
on time, I think.
This sounds like exactly the kind of DeFi shit that you love and I like not going to
use it.
Yeah.
Wow.
I mean, your basic, your basic is, I thought it was kind of like you were pledging one
token to help to find the liquidity pools upfront, right?
So there's who like, you know, they'll, they can do it against the different token like
Adam or, but you're not defining the pool like it doesn't, all the fun right?
Just go straight to whoever the fuck put all the tokens in the pool to begin with.
Okay.
It was like a one sided pool and people buy tokens out of it essentially over a period
of time.
And then, but I'm, so I'm not sure.
I think at the end of it, everybody gets the tokens at the same value, but you put money
into it over time and that sort of determines the end value.
But that's an interesting mechanism.
It's busy though.
Like to your point, like I, within minutes it's done, right?
Like they get to that, I guess it's a volume target, right?
They're trying to get to in terms of number of locked and that's it.
Well, I thought it was a time target.
It's right in that case.
So people are just bidding on the asset and then averaging, then shipping.
No, like, you know, it's like.
I've probably, but.
So say they put a million tokens in there, right?
Of token X, then, and then set the time period at an hour.
If in an hour, someone only puts in like one USDC and no one else puts anything in, then
I'm pretty sure the one person gets the million tokens for one USDC.
I see.
Yeah.
If two people put in a USDC each, then, you know, they get 500,000 tokens for one USDC
each.
Yeah, that's great.
Like somebody's like, Coizar Adam was 12 hours, Coizar Osmo was 12 hours, Flix was both, like
Flix Osmo was an hour and so was Empower Osmo was an hour.
And they were, like, they were gone like five minutes, right?
Which I guess is the, the vine or, or no, it's not, it's, so you're saying your point
is that it's open for the hour.
So the more that goes in there, it just gets split.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So it's just determined by the total amount of like the lateral, let's put, no, well,
total amount of, you know, token two that's put in.
Oh, there's a StreamSwap Telegram bot.
How DJ does that?
I mean, give me a there.
Yo, let's get this.
See you on the go.
Anyway, the next on the list from our news researcher, Ramah.
So rain.
This is one of the, we haven't, we haven't really talked about this before other than
briefly mentioned it and then just cringed and walked away.
But this is the UI that we were talking about.
Everyone was sort of tweeting about a little bit on Twitter a while ago where you can put
in like an address, like Cosmos address.
I think that they've only got a limited number of networks at the moment.
You got Osmosis, Cosmos Hub and Celestia testnet.
And basically you, you enter, well, it's got a couple of different functions, but the one
that everyone's talking about is the trail and it creates like a map of transfer addresses
in and transfer addresses out of a particular account in the IBC multi chain world.
So you can see like, you know, if you say there's an Osmosis account that someone uses
for just general transactions, but you can see like, all right, so they're sending in
tokens from Axelar and Juno and Chuaua from these other particular addresses.
And then you can, you know, click on those on where they're getting them.
Who built this, you know?
I don't know.
It's called range.
I don't know who has made it.
It's range security at Twitter.
This looks like Todd built something like this too, right?
Remember, remember blockchain built?
If this was you, Todd, fuck you.
It could be.
No, I remember he built the same type of tool, but I forget he built it like an app.
It was like a specific, I forget what it was, like an analytics app, but basically allowed
him to be able to show a, his was more about the branching aspect of things like I started
a wallet and I looked at like a transaction between different wallets.
I could trail things back.
I think he kind of brought that out when we were going through the Prop 16 bullshit.
Javi did it in a spreadsheet as well.
And then just, that's right.
And then, and then Todd had like this, I forget what the app is.
I could hold if he's watching, I hope he'll probably tell us, but it was like a pretty
cool thing where he basically brought a bunch of data in and it just kind of, it built a
visual around where things were going from X to Y to Z.
So this is kind of the same idea, right?
It's basically a trail of transactions across accounts to be able to tie ownership or try
or maybe not ownership, but at least tie some sort of relationship between different types
of wallets.
And I was going to meet up the other week or like a talk and one of the people that was
talking was just like some salesperson effectively from one of these on chain analytics, chain
analytics, you know, they've all got crap names, companies and they're like, I know
what you're thinking.
This is terrible for privacy.
Well, we're a member of the like insert bullshit privacy alliance certification here.
And so we actually care, we spend 20% of our dev time working on privacy related initiatives
and you're just like, great, go fuck yourself.
What do you want to fucking gold stuff?
Fuck off.
Like what is the purpose of what you're doing?
It's you just fucking wanking off to make a few bucks from like scared people that want
to comply with AML.
Like it's just fucking garbage.
You know, so the fucking half of London's owned by fucking Russian oligarchs and like,
you know, Saudi princes that like cutting up people that disagree with them.
Like, do you really think that the blockchain is the fucking, you know, the real money
laundering is happening elsewhere lads and the air cover for it is at a political and
institutional level.
Let's be real.
Although speaking of air cover and speaking of oligarchs and speaking of people who like
to launder money, as of a couple of hours ago, I believe pregosin has had a sudden engine
failure courtesy of the Russian state and is now an ex-dissident of the Russian regime.
So, you know, in the words of Omar from the wire, in the words of Omar from the wire,
if you come at the king, your best not miss.
Yeah, okay.
In the words of Bill Clinton, no.
Who's that?
I think it's the little guy with the gray hair who is the president.
We got him.
George Bush.
Yeah.
It was a bomb.
We got him.
Yeah.
It was a stomach bin Laden and then a bomb was like, oh, I was the only say we got him.
That was the one.
Oh, is it Obama?
Yeah.
When they went into the compound, that was Obama.
But like George was standing on the fucking mission accomplished with the, you know, we're
done.
I said, my daddy couldn't pee pee pee.
I did 80s video.
Pew, pew, pew.
Me, while he was shooting somebody and then that person's apologizing to jet, you know,
run all over this range Twitter account.
Why?
I don't like I don't like teams like this that have a product they joined eight months
ago that have no path to profitability and no team page.
Are we still talking about precautions playing being shot down?
Because I'm confused.
No, I'm back on range.
Crypto.
And that has a part is this ability and it's it's providing mercenaries to unstable African
regimes and then acquiring their mineral wealth and then laundering that money through
the city of London.
It's really effective actually as a profit generating engine.
Wagner group.
Yeah.
So you have a lot of South African business going on there.
Exactly.
Well, you know, like one of the most successful private military firms of all time was executive
outcomes, which was the it was basically the South African special forces that were in
the bush wars in like Angola and stuff.
And then after the end of apartheid, a lot of the military got reformed and they just
went, well, we'll just go be a massive paramilitary force all over Africa and get loads of mineral
wealth.
And they did that.
And well, I mean, yeah, that's what Wagner's doing.
So they go and help governments in coups.
They go and they go and step in with governments in coups and protect assets from being taken
by the people and then get contracts with the coup government and then sometimes topple
that government if there's better offer.
Money's good.
Yeah.
Why not?
As long as you get to keep the resource, right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's basically the plotline of Mount Gif four ish.
I mean, Hideo Kojima once again, predicting that life will be stranger than a Hideo Kojima
game.
But yeah, I really recommend if you're interested in the history of private military organizations,
the book Corporate Warriors by PW Singer, I've recommended on this podcast before.
Genuinely fascinating was written at the end of the 90s, pre 911.
And literally every single thing in it came true.
It's just like, hey, if we see these trends continue, a load of things are going to happen
about in geopolitics that are going to be really complex.
And like literally all of them happen.
And you just like, yeah, I guess he did his research.
All right.
So back on range.
So one last thing I'll mention on range, some of these things that are on here is I would
never use.
So the alerting looks pretty handy.
So there's things in the alerting where you can set alerts for state change of a contract
which is like pretty interesting.
Yeah, I signed in, they've got my details now.
You deets.
My deets, they can they can they can now email me at a block chain.
Big balls.
Like Google.
Dick knows blockchain.
Any.
Org.
Yeah.
That's enough on that's enough on range.
But I called that run before so he was actually pulling up the the wall that came out from
that convex exploit that we were talking about an hour and a half ago.
So he was pulling the details of the age of that wallet, which is the Osmos wallet, and
then came basically on ramp through secret and what came through there as well as axelar.
That's kind of cool, I guess.
I mean, it's good.
I guess it's good from an exploit perspective from a from a general, hey, let's go figure
out who the fucks got what.
I kind of don't like it, but you know, it is what it is.
That was range.
Yeah.
So I'll put a link in the I have a share.
I'm not capturing links for shit because, you know, typical, but I'll I'll try to put
I have a link in the show that's a Romer's tweet or related to the Osmos wallet associated
to to this convex exploit that we were talking about for our harbor exploit, I should say
not context.
So the next item of news is the neutron eats duality and Adam Maxie's are not pleased is
the headline here.
So I haven't read ahead on this one.
I did.
I did see it in Twitter, but I haven't read ahead in, you know, the explanation in the
spreadsheet because I didn't know where it was.
So I couldn't do that when I got up at four o'clock this morning to discord as a sir,
but it's usually do.
Oh, right.
Oh, it's been Davis on the panel.
Is that it?
Is that a is that a Adam Dow?
Well, for folks who are listening at Ben Davis said we funded range or last batch.
I think it's Osmosis.
Okay.
I thought it was that I thought it was Adam.
It was cosmos.
The a double thing.
The Adam.
After some accelerators, isn't it?
It is.
Right.
Okay.
Ben, can we get paid?
Can we get a donation to the day?
Yeah, I do.
It's a lot of eight out.
Yeah.
All right.
So eight out funded, funded part of range.
That's cool.
All right.
I mean, it looks like a good tool.
I mean, it should stuff like that.
It'd be nice to know who's behind it and, you know, like what's the what's the what's
the long term to answer your question about can we get paid?
Ben Davis says for this question mark.
Absolutely.
Fuckin' nut.
Hey, man, we provide value to service at entertaining.
I know I was thinking about it.
Wednesday night.
So, so, so in that tweet, it said that this was the first acquisition.
Well, this has Cosmos protocol merger.
How do you want to say if this is the first acquisition of merger in the cosmos?
That seems.
Well, let me go on the, wow, I mean, I don't know.
Hang on.
Let me, let me go on the full, the full blurb here.
So, neutron and duality have proposed a merger of the two protocols on the neutron.
This would mean the features of duality will be implemented on neutron, enabling synergies
between neutron, duality and Astroport LPs to bring more value to neutron and fees to
the Cosmos hub.
Adam Maxey's a seething as this means they only get 25% of fees instead of the previously
announced 100% from duality's initial proposal.
So Adam gets fucked again.
I'm supposed to laugh when you say that.
Hey, I don't have any atoms.
So I'm good.
Me either.
Yeah.
I've never held Adam like me either.
Everyone in this fucking system is an Adam Maxey.
I'm just like, they do nothing.
I wasn't, I wasn't early enough for it.
I just didn't, I didn't get it when I joined.
I'm like, give me that sweet shit coin, son.
Stupidly cashed out a load of Juno when Juno was higher than Adam into, wait, is this
way round?
Wait, which way did you do it?
Yeah.
When Juno was higher than Adam, I cashed out Juno into Adam, but Adam was doing really
well anyway.
So it wasn't like a big, great play.
And then obviously Juno went even higher.
And I was like, oh, but I should have kept it there and then sold it.
And then both crashed and it just tanked the value because we held it too long and it ended
up being, and we had to pay tax obviously on the, the Juno that we held.
And then when you do the trade, it's a forex trade.
So you pay, there's a taxable event.
So we locked in that price to, to pay the tax on the atom when it was super valuable.
And then when we had to sell the atom to pay the tax bill on the trade, the atom sell like
covered the tax bill.
It was like nothing left or something like that.
It was amazing.
I really think you need to like get a worse accountant.
You know, there probably is an element of truth to this.
Someone who doesn't understand the law quite as well.
Yeah.
Someone who's like a little less like, a little plausible deniability situation going on,
right?
You know, like, I don't know how that works.
Let's just go with this.
He's less detail oriented, but has a very good insurance.
Exactly.
Yeah.
He's a good insurance.
A good yellow attitude.
You know.
Who has the paperwork, right?
He has the certifications.
Well intentioned.
Maybe not so much upstairs.
Yeah.
Maybe just like, kind of like, just a really, people go like, he's a really nice guy.
He's a great guy.
Someone who, someone who only understands the concept of cash basis.
Exactly.
If, if I only understood the call, if, if, if you could just do all the stuff on cash
basis.
I mean, yeah, that would be great.
That'd be great.
Yeah.
I just, most of the US, come on, maybe.
The days are longer.
It doesn't turn into fall and August.
Come on over.
Cash based accounting.
We have a range of like, between the three of us, we have like the full range of strategies
is like, SERP is just full cash basis.
I'm like cash basis plus like a trading stock type of thing, which kind of.
I would rather have what you have to be honest, but yeah, go ahead.
Oh, you've got the same as me.
No, I would rather have what you like.
That option that you run, I think is pretty good.
I'm not sure if that works here, but.
And then Dr. Frey is just fucking full compliance with the most bullshit part of the law.
Paying tax on every teabag and shit.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I've, I've.
I've seen that.
I've won the health service.
12 cents, but you drank it when it was worth 13 cents.
So you're the penny you can't.
You can't fuck off.
I mean, the thing is, yeah.
So okay.
So obviously the company has paid shitloads tax, you know, whatever.
But I think even possibly possibly because I don't really trade crypto, I don't really
get paid in crypto because, you know, work for this company.
I think actually just because of the sheer cost of having a baby in any other country
and the fact that it costs you nothing here.
I think personally I am quits in for the last like two tax years, like all the prenatal
care plus postnatal care plus, you know, surgery, a bunch of other shit that's gone down.
Yeah.
I think we must be seriously quits in on that.
So you know, swings and roundabouts, right?
Although the reality is in this country right now, if you're paying taxes, you're actually
paying taxes for Starbucks and Amazon to not pay fucking tax and the government to, you
know, plug the whole of Brexit where they fuck the economy.
So you know, there's actually no point in paying taxes because the NHS isn't going to
get the money. It's going to go to fucking six toad pony fucking aristocrats, bad decisions,
you know, paying off the bill on that.
So fucking great one.
Cheers, everybody.
Yeah.
Like I definitely feel like I could do better with my tax money than what the government
can.
The only thing is, is that like, you know, to effectively like help the country in, you
know, in some sort of capacity by through, you know, public goods, which is kind of what
taxes for like, I would have to go and form a coalition with all of my neighbors or something
to all, you know, you know, form a local Dow.
So form like a real life.
I mean, I think we point to like, you know, fucking fill the potholes and shit.
It'd be kind of annoying.
It sounds time consuming.
I'd rather pay the government.
Quickly you end up with kind of anarcho-syndicalism, and then you end up with a government and
then you're like, well, we're back to square one.
The universe brain play is probably actually to just go into politics and then you become
the house, right?
House always wins.
Just become a house or a launch chain or launch a chain.
And then you go directly to prison.
You just speed run going to prison.
That is actually one of those things that was in this country anyway, boys would be
boys, very boys would be boys until about a few months ago.
And we mentioned on the podcast last week, there's a regulation change happening in the
UK.
My understanding is that that would mean as of the 3rd of October, it's no longer boys
would be boys.
It's pay the 10,000 pounds to be regulated plus do all your paperwork or you go to prison
for two years.
So I think it has literally become for what?
For launching some sort of security type of structure on a blockchain?
Crucially marketing actually, I think is where they get you.
What marketing for what?
For investment?
Represent the asset.
I think it's the representation, like the marketing of the asset, which bear in mind,
my understanding, I'm not a lawyer.
Go and get a lawyer, regulation lawyer if you are in the UK and you think this affects
you.
I think the definition for marketing is quite broad.
If you're like, I am launching a chain that could be construed as marketing.
This is my understanding if you say it publicly.
So who knows?
Fuck it.
I'll put it in the notes.
NFTs uncovered though.
NFTs uncovered meant all the NFTs you fucking like.
I'm not a lawyer.
Definitely double check that before you start an NFT project in the UK.
I'm going to hold comment on that.
This draft, I'll link a show notes of this duality protocol merger document or forum,
I guess on the neutron.org forums.
This thing reads like a fucking, this is a three legged race situation.
There was a Dan Lyons who was a reporter in the US famously back in the early 2000s started
a blog where it was called fake Steve Jobs.
I hope you guys heard about this.
This might be before your time a little bit.
But there was a, when Steve came back to Apple and it was like kind of the early days of
the iPod and like the growth and like whatever, he started this fake Steve Jobs blog, which
is hilarious.
Like just kind of like fuck all this and blah, blah, blah.
I'm on the mission and all this type of stuff.
And he wrote, there's this famous article, I'll link it as well, which I think is still
on the web actually around this three legged the race when I think Microsoft was talking
about buying, I think when they were talking about buying Blackberry.
So back in the early days when the iPhone was taking off and Blackberry was getting
crushed and Microsoft had no fucking idea what was going on.
Balmer was shitting on the iPhone about not having keys and all this type stuff right
in the early like 2007, 2008 days.
And then there was a rumor that Microsoft I think was going to buy Blackberry or no,
no, I'm sorry.
It was Microsoft was going to buy, that's right.
Balmer was going to buy Yahoo.
That's right.
That's what it was.
It was going to buy Yahoo because they had no like internet structure and they were like
worried about like all this type of stuff related to email accounts and all this type
of things.
And there's a great three legged.
And so Dan Lyons as posting as like a fake Steve Jobs wrote this type of thing around
when two losers get together and when they're getting beaten by something else or they're
getting beat by the market or they're getting beat by a third party or competitor, they
start buying each other to try to like whatever.
And it's called like the three legged race where like you tie this other shit to you
and you keep tying more shit to you because you're just pushing off the inevitable that
there's no value here.
But you keep buying things to be able to show the shareholders and show other people that
there's something.
Hey, there's something here.
There's no one shit.
Like look at us.
Like we're making some case and this duality proposal reads 100% like a three legged race.
Like it totally it totally has that same type of like tone to it.
So anyway, it looks like I just think slipknot.
I can't I bet you can't.
So now I will.
I don't know.
I've not very well.
It's there weren't my thing growing up.
But like, you know, you hit a certain age and you just like sometimes I want to go to
a metal night at a club and just get pissed and just listen to loud guitar music, right?
And you have to lower your standards a bit because it has to be mainstream enough that
everybody who owns a black t-shirt in the metropolitan area you live closest to will
recognize that song immediately.
So it's like, you know, it's to be fair, I was about to say it's like fucking chop suey
versus some of the doubt, but actually that's a fucking smashing song massive banger.
But it has to be like that.
Like you know, so there's a slipknot is kind of part of the course as soon as you hit that
kind of, you know, you go to one of those nights a few times a year or go to the the
scientists go at a festival where they're playing where there's a rock channel, you
know, again, that's a really niche.
I feel like an alienated both of you with the idea of going to a go to rock.
So it's like, I can't go to the fucking side of disco at a festival.
It's just like number one, the festival part number two, the side of disco part.
It's just like a saying it chief is what I saw.
Niles got really nice late.
You have a nice late any right now.
Golden hour baby.
It's like early golden hour.
Yeah.
It's like a reflection of light off some dirty tiles hitting your dirty window.
You got to ruin it there.
Yeah, this is pretty.
We don't have the news.
Is that it?
Yeah, we were the bits and pieces that all this.
Yeah, we'll fuck all this.
But so I gather because we've so we've been trying to obviously pay our invoices this
week as a Dow because we're a Dow, Dow, Dow now.
We are gay gay gay gay Gio and Gio and Gio and Gio.
Gio and Gio and Gio and Dow.
Yeah, go down.
Go down.
Yeah, exactly.
Go down.
Time and saying it.
Just got to say it very quickly.
We've been trying to pay our invoices and having admittedly we've got our multi chain
accounts set up on Osmosis now so we can try and actually get some stable coins into our
Dow in order to actually I think we have seven days until that happens.
But no, no, I don't do it during the show.
Like, oh, you did execute it.
Boom.
How the fuck did you do that?
Just I am I see into the matrix.
I am to do it.
We do have an Osmo address.
Oh, it's Axel USDC.
All right.
Wait, does it mean I have to use axel or or at least something else that turns an axle
you.
So it's USDC versus.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's USDC and Juno.
Where the fuck does that come from then?
And then but it's Axel USDC on Osmosis.
And look, here's the situation.
Okay, here's the situation either way.
Right.
In I don't know how business accounts work in the States, right?
But in the UK, right, you get an app on your phone and you can just send international
payments as a business from your phone.
You just get their I-Band number.
You send it.
It takes about two minutes, right?
And then it gets automatically sent in the bank feed to my accountants to the company
accountants, right?
Yeah, I'll still at the web three way.
Right.
So this entire process, I am just like, if somebody can provide even a one line invoice,
it can be done within 10 minutes.
And then all I have to do as as as the CTO company got its ridiculous when you like,
you know, you know, when you have an early career thing where you go in and do for a
job and you're like, this job title sounds really senior.
I don't know why this job title sounds so senior.
And you find out there's like three technical people in the entire company and they're just
like, yeah, holy fuck, this place is fucked.
And you're like, that's why they're interviewing a senior engineer and they don't know what
that is.
Anyway, whatever you just have to do, go do like the clearance of the payments at the
end of the month.
So the whole process is probably four to five minutes worth of work, right?
Since with payment.
So already the USDC and Dow thing is a little bit of overhead in order to do a payment.
I would say, but it is the future.
So we're going to do it.
We're going to do it.
We believe in the glorious Dow future.
I don't know how the fuck to do it.
I know.
So we have so there's an axle.
So we have an Osmo address that Osmo addresses is the address of the Dow, right?
Okay, that makes sense.
So I have a deposit.
So there's a deposit.
Oh, why to be able to deposit actually USDC, but I'm adding myself as the I guess this
makes sense actually.
So I'm adding myself as my yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, I'm joining from that.
So if I get actually USDC on this address, I should be able to send it.
Okay.
The real pain in the ass is that you have to send it to the other address is the fucking
but how does well, I would use it.
I would use a deposit.
I would use a token deposit from the webpage, right?
Like I can't use the deposit.
Like you have like, I'm sure you can send it to the address directly, but using the
deposit on the page, it looks like it actually has to be in your account that is correct.
Your account that's on the Dow.
I mean, obviously, whatever the fucking wallet is that you've got opening Kepler at the
time because it wouldn't know who to assign it to, right?
Because I assume what is it has to a song?
It goes into the Dow.
It's not Nulls coins in the Dow.
It's the Dow.
You're probably right.
It probably doesn't matter.
You're probably right.
It probably doesn't matter.
Abstract that away.
Abstraction.
Throw a grand and see what happens.
The bigger issue is I don't have $1,000 on anything related to Cosmos.
I was thinking as well, like as a company, we either stay or every issue is in, you
know, currency that we can pay because Jeff Bezos does not fucking accept Juno.
How is that unbelievable?
I know.
How much do we...
Who's Jimmy Smallballs?
How much do we need to put in?
It's you, isn't it?
No, it's not me.
It has to be you, Jimmy Smallballs.
Dude, it fucking has to be because I know...
You are Jimmy Smallballs.
And we have to...
It must be Schultz.
No, no.
Because Schultz, I wasn't sure who it was.
And then I saw Jimmy Smallballs vote on the...
Oh, you're right.
No, no, no.
The non-Jimmy Smallballs voted on the proposal, which I thought was Schultz, which means the
only one that left was you.
Are you sure it's not...
Who's Jimmy Smallballs?
It's Jimmy Smallballs.
I don't see the osmosis address in the treasury anymore.
This is all very hard.
Thank you.
I gave it back.
I'm just going to copy that address.
Here we go.
I'm going to send a dollar and see what happens.
Let's do...
How much were we putting in into the...
8.25 USD.
8.25.
Yeah.
8.25 USD.
Correct.
Which is...
So, everybody listening back later, the title of this podcast was Game of No It's
Pay Their Invoices.
It should have been Game of No It's Pay Their Invoices or Your Money Back because...
It should have been Game of No It's...
We delivered that content.
We're not like one of these bullshit projects that just endlessly...
Okay, granted.
Let's not talk about the t-shirts in the merch.
We did say we're going to be...
We do not talk about the Game of No It's merch.
I thought we were making a go more tidy t-shirt.
That didn't happen.
Okay, so that was relatively painless and it has come up as a USDC, not an Axelar USDC.
So I don't know how that works.
Oh, what the fuck?
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Oh, it sure does.
Oh, that's cool.
Okay, so that wasn't the only tokens that could be deposited there.
So did you just buy them on Osmosis and then send them to the Dow?
I already had some in the King Nodes Treasury.
So that is...
Okay, all right, cool.
I forgot where I'm going to pull the grant from, but...
So it was to get money into crypto.
How do you get money into crypto?
You don't.
You only take money away from crypto.
Well, yeah, but in the event that you need to pay an $825 bill and you need $800...
I mean, we could unbond some of our validators and it wouldn't add up to $825.
So that's UTC and Ethereum.
Like, you could buy Cosmos, sorry, buy Atom on Kraken, send it to Osmosis and then that's
probably the easiest way, isn't it?
That's so weird that it's shut up as USDC because it has to be actually USDC, right?
Doesn't it?
Isn't there native USDC floating around now?
Is that through...
Not through Neutron, through the other one, right?
Look, maybe they've just... maybe in the map for the denoms, they've just fucked it up.
I don't know.
No, because on the smokes, actually, I see USDC...
I see USDC, USDC slash Ethereum.
I don't see actually USDC anymore in this list, which is really weird.
Do Osmos use a different USDC?
Well, maybe now it's native.
But what the fuck does native mean in this context?
Well, what the fuck is it?
What change?
Like, natively issued.
It's native.
Natively issued.
Natively issued through...
What's USDC?
Why can't I think of... what the fuck are we talking about?
What change are we talking about here?
So there's native USDC all over the place, right, on a bunch of different networks and
that is just issued and redeemable by circle.
So, what about in Britain and then say... it's all you... actually USDC, it's just abstracted
the bridge away.
So basically it's USDC regardless of what bridges involved it within that.
Well, why does it say...
For fuck's sake, I hate you.
Listen.
There's an easy solution, right?
The hot... okay, so you're in the UK band.
Listen, I can tell you the whole of the pick of it is back on BBC iPlayer.
There's an easy solution.
You can turn off this podcast and go watch The Rise and The Nutters episode or Spinners
and Losers classic, classic one, two, two of the finest pieces of British comedy ever
written on BBC iPlayer free to all British residents or anybody with a VPN.
So this is the best... this is the best coming out of overhead.
It's very relatable actually.
Even as a panelist, it's incredibly relatable.
So I feel like Ben Davis has a punching bag in his viewing room with like the little logo.
Viewing room, yes.
For viewing room.
Just for a game of notes.
For a game of notes on a Wednesday evening.
Okay, he's got that logo for a game of notes on his... it's stitched intricately stitched
into his punching bag.
You idiots.
You know, as an aside, we should actually put more than USD$825 into the Dow and we
should actually print T-shirts.
We should print T-shirts.
It's too late.
I fucking know I've done it.
Okay, if I...
I'm practically bankrupt now so...
Yeah, I mean that's...
I see 825.
...2 years.
So it doesn't show who... it doesn't show where they came from, right?
It does not.
But I can send it...
Oh, okay.
So I can send it for anywhere though.
All right.
Related to this in a final piece of news, the Dow Dow UI is going to go open source again.
Why?
Fuck me.
I might have some thoughts on whether or not that was a good idea you said.
Why is it going open source?
Why?
My understanding is because obviously they already open sourced it in the past.
So there are some old versions flowing around and one, they want to get more contributors
and it's easier when it's open source and especially to patch minor issues and stuff
and two, to grow off to ground funding from other chains.
So what they call neutron already used Dow Dow, right?
They've got all the contracts and then there's that one on Terra which is also a Dow Dow
clone, isn't it?
I don't know if the plan is to go after funding from everybody, but I think Archway also maybe
used Dow Dow or have it obviously because contracts are open source.
So I think it's about getting funding from other chains.
I understand this very well.
So we're talking about the future of Juno and this project and Dow Dow and the idea
of decentralized autonomous organizations is a huge output of Juno, right?
So if this goes open source and all these chains can use it, then what is the role of
Dow Dow on Juno?
What's the role of Dow Dow zone?
Is it just a single instance of this idea and everyone can use the idea?
And so you're saving on hosting and costs associated that?
Cross-chain Dow, I guess.
But if that exists today, right, we created an autonomous services address and that will
go to other types of chains, right?
So if I'm open sourcing it and we're getting grants to pay developer, I'm not saying that's
a bad idea.
I'm just asking a real question.
So I understand the need to pay people and to be able to survive.
I clearly understand that.
So is this a, hey, we'd like to have it work a different way, but we can't because the
market is shit and so therefore we need cash or we're going to open source it to be able
to yada yada or is this a strategic type structure to be able to do this?
Because I don't understand.
If Dow Dow can't be used like this website and what we're doing here today with this
or an ability to figure this out to pay bills, but this can't be used across the Cosmo
ecosystem or across IBC, right?
If it's just open source and anybody can use it, then what's the point of this?
I honestly don't know.
Like, do you guys know the answer to that?
What's the point of which of Dow Dow?
Like if it's just, if it's a frame, is it a framework or is it a solution?
Because if it's a framework that anyone can use and then we can be able to bring it to
their own chain, then okay, that's a framework.
Then that team gets paid based on other teams using it as a framework and there's no structure.
It's just the same.
I guess it's the same funding.
If you open source the front end, then the funding model becomes fundamentally the same
as every piece of Web 2 open source software where you are begging people for money.
Then it's a framework.
I'm building a framework that I'm asking for people who use the framework to be able to
contribute back to their framework.
So if it's a framework, then Juno's future as a home of Dow Dow makes no sense because
then it's not a solution.
It's not a solution that all these teams are using.
This is a, like Dow Dow is a solution.
The solution exists on this chain that we're using right now.
We're using Juno.
We have to have Juno be able to do this.
But if it's a framework that anyone can use, then what's the value of Dow Dow itself as
a site that's hosted on Juno?
Then what is the value of Juno associated with that?
Well, I think the reality is as soon as the front end is open source, the idea that there's
any direct high to Juno is factually incorrect.
Right.
Well, but we talked about before, like a while ago was that the future of Juno was Dow Dow,
right?
Like that was one of the core one tenants to say that we want to make sure that like the
idea of decentralized governance is extremely important.
This is the best toolset that's out there, which we all agree, right?
But they exist.
And so this was like one of the huge carrots that we could use from a Juno perspective to
say, hey, across IBC and as IBC grows across other ecosystems and all the type of stuff
that Dow is a home for that.
But if that's all open source and like it can just give it away and then we're getting
grants for it, then basically we're trading the project for the chain.
So the project receives revenue associated.
No, I'm just trying to figure it out.
So the project receives revenue for that because they've done the work, but the chain basically
loses value because anybody can use it, right?
Yeah.
So I think there's two things that like one is obviously Juno's entire model was protocols
come here, protocols eventually move on, right?
And then the chain has more protocols.
However, Juno has singularly failed to attract protocols to it.
Yes.
Like that's been a complete failure.
Let's be honest, like viable protocols.
It's been challenging.
Yes.
Almost none.
So, but things that do exist in the future.
So there are some things obviously for Dow-Dow that are going to happen on Juno.
A lot of the stuff that's in Juno Evo is still planned, which is essentially all the stuff
around hooks, governance, moving to Dow-Dow, all that stuff which is like first in the
Cosmos ecosystem.
The issue I think you would have, which is the question of like what benefit?
So it means that Juno has like governance that is better than anywhere else in the ecosystem.
But if Juno is losing its fundamental value proposition, then why do people want to participate
in governance for something that becomes valueless?
It is like, I think there's a little bit of a, there is a lot of attention there.
And the other problem you have, I think, is that the implementation of it, you know, Juno
is fundamentally open source, right?
So all of the hooks and all the stuff that has been, that will be built for Juno, you
know, can just be lifted and shifted to another chain that already has Dow-Dow and then they
have the same tech as Juno again.
So, you know, look, we have a big brain hat on and, you know, stepping away for a minute
from somebody who's been involved in Juno since way before Genesis has a lot of skin
in the game.
But take a step back from all of that and say like, okay, complete bystander view is
that a good outcome?
And I actually spicy take would say it is a good outcome to have Dow-Dow open source,
potentially even the UI and have all the work for Juno EVO done open source.
That is really good for Dow tooling.
It's really good for the Cosmos.
And it's really, really good for Dow-Dow with a caveat.
So the best thing for Dow-Dow would actually be to work out, you know, full product model
and become self-sustaining, right?
Use tokenomics their advantage, become fully self-sustaining.
Now, we're in a ecosystem, we're in a world where we can build economic incentive systems,
right?
That's the novel thing about crypto.
Do that rather than going after grant money or whatever.
And I know there's a bunch of stuff that Dow-Dow are doing around token swaps and all that
stuff.
There's a bunch of different avenues for funding that are possible.
I'm not like just shitting on them because I know they are doing a bunch of different
things.
So, yeah, with that caveat.
But for Dow-Dow, like if they're not going to do the product thing, then this makes sense
for them.
It's the right decision to go and look for the grant funding to do the open source thing.
So I think there's two interesting things there.
This may well be the right decision for Dow-Dow.
It's almost certainly, like with a kind of squinty way, the best thing for the Cosmos
ecosystem and it's almost definitely the best thing for Dow tooling, right?
Just to get good Dow tooling out there and let anybody use it.
However, is it bad for Juno?
Yes.
Right.
That was my point, right?
Holding the bag.
Who's left them?
Because Juno backholders.
Correct.
They're left holding the bag of a, there's a great loss of revenue or there's a great
loss of value to be able to create a product that will benefit others and the team, but
not necessarily the people who created the opportunity.
So that's not entirely true because what's good for Dow-Dow is actually still good for
Juno in that Juno has a lot of Dow token in the Treasury.
So if they can actually...
Yeah, but they're moving to a funding model that is potentially a thoggen or to the Dow
token.
So what I was going to say is if they can make the Dow token successful, then that is
a success for Juno in itself.
So I mean...
And there's also an argument...
There's a problem.
Well, there's also an argument to add to your point, Noel, about the success of the token.
Even if the token isn't a success, actually, the success of the protocol and moving on
is a project success, like in terms of adoption for Juno.
And you could say, well, look, this project was incubated, developed, with grant money,
has moved on from Juno, has become bigger, is now core to the interchange, is used across
the interchange, is used on this chain, that chain, the other chain, because it's chained
out, right?
And projects looking to find a chain where they can get that funding and then move on
or whatever will go, okay, cool, I can use Juno.
And maybe one of those other projects will have a better mechanism for returning value
to Juno stakers.
However, you are then in a weird situation where essentially the core chain infrastructure,
so the Juno security of the chain, which is from Juno stakers, they are relying on the
charity of the projects on the chain to see a return themselves of value.
Now that has always been the case, actually, when you think about it.
It's always the case that without protocols, the token is worthless.
And so they've always been in that position.
This just makes that very explicit, and it's maybe an uncomfortable situation to be in,
potentially.
I don't know.
I think it's a complicated question, really, this.
So too complicated for the show.
I think that no matter what Daudau do with open sourcing, et cetera, I think that the
latest and the greatest features will probably always ship on Juno first.
And I think there's a good opportunity, even if it is open sourced for other projects to
contract Daudau team to have outposts like native outposts on their own chains of Daudau,
which I think would help it proliferate in the ecosystem as well.
But I mean, they just have to be a little bit smart about how they do that and what they
actually, you know, you can open source or be done after open source, like all of the
branches, right?
And they can have like a development branch which has better features and just not have
that open source than only have like an LTS or something that's open sourced.
But you know, I think the way it stands at the moment, they're never going to get a foothold
in anything just by being on Juno.
Because, I mean, as much as I still like Juno, Juno has just slanted the fuck out of all
over the place.
And you have to be present elsewhere if you want to get the brand out there and be recognised.
But at the same time, you can still help Juno get a leg up by keeping your core features
or the next features always released on Juno first and have like the main base of Daudau
still on Juno, but abstract everything else away anyway, so that our purse works seamlessly.
I guess my fundamental question is maybe more about Juno than it is about Daudau in some
ways, which is that, you know, if there aren't more protocols on Juno back in the first place,
like Juno doesn't need a lot of the advanced governance features and people's Daudaus,
let's be real, if and when Daudau goes fully just super-entertained, right?
A lot of that work, that heavy lifting is going to be on other chains and a lot of the
transactions are going to be in either natives on other chains or they're going to be in
USDC or something similar, right?
So it is that thing of like, oh, technically, it will live on Juno.
That doesn't matter.
But you know, I guess that's the interchain mesh security type world, right?
Moving forward, the chains themselves are going to master a little bit less, but I guess
it's more to the heart of like, what is the USP of Juno, right?
Juno could never be successful with just Daudau on its own anyway.
The only path for success for Juno is to make a friendly, full-featured development environment
for teams to want to build here.
And the whole incentivized environment, I think, is bullshit.
And you're never going to get like quality projects by having incentivization to come
and build on your chain.
I think like people have to want to build it and you have to provide an environment that
makes people want to build it.
And if you can attract people that way, you might be successful, but you have to have
like a very friendly environment with all of the resources that you need, as well as
like all of the latest features and always be on top of those features.
Everything that's the latest in the ecosystem, you have to support.
And if you can have that and then for some stroke of luck, teams want to come and build
here, then it could potentially be successful.
Otherwise, it's probably fucked anyway.
Yeah.
No matter what Daudau does, it's fucking Daudau's good and all, but it's never going
to be the sole road to success of Juno.
I don't want to show in this conversation, but I can't find a way to send nulls $825
out via proposal.
You do a new proposal and send.
All I can see is the Juno side.
I can't see the Asmosis side.
Don't you just tick the box?
So you go to like actions and then you tick the radio button for Osmosis and it should
give you the...
I see proposal.
I see spend.
I can see the Juno and USDC associate the Juno.
I'm trying to figure out how to get to being able to send an action from the Asmosis chain.
I'm hoping that $825 is locked up forever is really what I'm thinking about.
So before I send $825, I just want to make sure.
So like a final cheery question.
Yeah.
So I think we've covered like, wait and see on the Daudau Juno thing.
But how...
Because obviously we're primarily engaged in the Cosmos ecosystem, although all of us
do...
All of our companies are like are active in other ecosystems.
Like how...
In the context of where we are currently, we're still deep in a bed.
It's not getting better any time soon.
Like I put this in the spreadsheet, the discussion point is, are any of us GMI?
But I think it's actually partly putting on this T-shirt that made me think about it.
The amount of work a team like Artifact do on marketing promotions, outreach to new protocols,
like it's a multi-person just on the research and marketing and hand pressing and conferences
and whatever.
It's a really big coordinated effort to stay on top of everything.
Yeah.
It's a huge amount of work to do that sort of stuff.
And I guess I have this niggling feeling at the moment with like how we've ended up in
these ecosystems that we have as much by luck as by judgment.
And I think that's probably true of a lot of devs, a lot of even investors, whatever.
Like how repeatable is what we do as a business?
Like I'm thinking about this purely in a business strategy perspective.
We've just done our tax return for the end of the year, boom, tax mention again, drink.
And we're getting these questions like, oh, what's your forecast for next year?
What are your business initiatives?
What are your plans from the finance guys?
And you go like, well, any of the stuff we've done in the last three years as a business,
I don't know how you could pull off again, even if we put in the work that our fact do,
even they don't always manage to find repeatable.
Of course, that's the space.
Yeah, no, you can say a thousand frogs, right?
Yeah.
We've talked about it before, like you have to get a lot of frogs actually, like to build
something and turn into a prince.
Like you really do.
Like, and you're right.
Like half of it is, half of it is hard work and being in the right place at the right
time.
There's two different things.
One is who you know, I think makes a big difference, right?
And your reputation, you also who you up to, like and your reputation, reputation makes
I think makes a big difference within that and your ability to execute makes a big difference
on that.
And then there's a huge piece of luck and there's a huge piece of luck in every part
of business, right?
Like, that's not related to crypto.
But I think within crypto, either you're placing bets on everything, which I think is probably
the wrong.
I think in long term, I think that's the wrong strategy or you are lucky enough to find and
get into the right groove of either projects or owners that have the right that basically
change the percentage of success versus failure, right?
And like, like we, like we put a lot of money into projects, but we invest in teams, not
our, like we don't invest in projects.
We invest in teams.
We look at who's involved in that, what their history is.
Do they have an interest, like, like their history, not in web three business, but just
like their ability to be able to run and execute on engagements and be able to be able to deliver
something.
And if they have success in that in the past or if they have history of that in the past,
that kind of you then you use that as a way to determine whether there's something in
the future.
But it's still like, but even with, even if you had like a great visibility to all of
that and you had a good understanding of those teams, you had the right introductions, the
percentage of success is still like, it's still a crap shoot, right?
Because you don't really know what's going to make and what's not going to make.
I suppose it's just like you look at the traditional like, you know, model of like what we might
do is small tech companies, right?
And you could look at, oh, we're going to pitch for eight projects.
Like going back to like pure project work, like engineering work, infrastructure work,
like we're going to pitch eight projects, 10 projects to clients and you can kind of
come up with, okay, well, we'll get two of them, we'll get one to two of them.
It will bring in this amount, it'll be at this PNL.
There's some element of predictability, even though it's not de-risk, right?
And I get this is the argument for doing infra, I suppose, rather than just pure validation,
right?
And so that sort of model, but it's the, it's the all or nothing nature of the winners or
losers, I think, which is the interesting part of this, because it's just, it adds
that extra variable that takes it from normal business to being something completely unknowable.