Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast from independent Valorantia teams.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Game of Nodes, the Valorantia podcast.
Today it is just the two of us so far.
We're expecting additional member later on, the Frey, not sure where he is at the moment, seems to have 100% disappeared.
Hence the name of this particular episode is MIA apparently.
Right, so what we have planned today, Shilty, not much, just regular chats.
Wait, hold on a second. Are we not doing the news?
Well, we are doing the news except I haven't prepared any news because it's been an incredibly busy week for me.
However, I did this morning get up nice and early, attach my phone to my monitor for the webcam,
seen as though I'm back at my other office which has no camera facilities here right now.
So actually I'm still sort of like part way through attaching it to my monitor so I'm trying not to cut myself while we're talking.
Was that electrical tape?
Yeah, it's like gaffer tape.
I'm just trying to make sure this doesn't fall down because it's like, yeah.
Well, like the monitor's hot so I'm fully anticipating that this tape's going to get warm and then the whole shit is just going to fall off my monitor at some point.
Or even better, since it's electrical tape, that's intended to melt when it gets warm.
So you might just melt it onto your monitor.
I don't think it's going to get that warm.
Hopefully not, Jesus Christ.
So my situation is that the Apple in all of their wisdom has created this thing where you can use your iPhone as a webcam for your MacBook.
And I have to say it is pretty handy in a pinch, except there are no available brackets for you to be able to buy.
Well, there is at the Apple store, but they only attach to the other Apple products like the Pro monitor and the MacBooks and stuff.
So kind of up shit creek in that regard.
So my solution is when I need to use it, I just carry around with me in my bag some tape.
It's really cool though, like when you move and it rotates with you, that's such a cool effect.
I remember the first time I saw that at work and someone did that, they're like making breakfast or something during our stand up and the camera moved and I was like, oh my God, what kind of setup does he have?
He's like, no, this is just my iPad or something.
And I was like, this is the future.
The future is now.
It's right now.
Oh, you can do it with an iPad as well.
Yeah, you can do it as well.
Could you imagine taping that shit to your monitor?
Well, he would just have it sitting on its stand.
So who'd get the full no shot going?
The what?
The no shots.
Yeah, cause it would be like aiming up because he'd be standing and then be looking up his nose.
Yeah, right.
Okay, so I did manage to funnel out a little bit of news.
Look, I don't think it's exciting news.
It's been like, I've had a busy ass week, but I don't think I've really done much.
And I think as far as the eco goes, I don't think there's been too much going on this week.
I mean, today was the stride joining the atom economics on that's pretty exciting just by itself.
So that was on my list.
Now you're a Cosmos hub validator, right?
Yeah.
So you will be, well, you did have to do the stride upgrade this morning.
James did it.
Really?
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, all things considered, it went quite well.
It took a little bit of time to get everyone actually up and signing as it always takes for upgrades.
I remember correctly, it was like, that a part of an hour for everyone to actually get precommittee and stuff.
But for such a complicated thing, like in order to actually get signing, you had to have actually stride note fully synced.
You had to like, there's another genesis file basically that you needed to add.
There was a lot of overhead for it.
So I think within the context of the difficulty, they did really well.
The stride team always kills it.
So that's not surprising.
Yeah.
I think I'm pretty impressed with those devs there over the last three to six months of like, I'm not on stride, but I'm always hearing that they're sort of killing it when they do the upgrades and even their, you know, general development features, that type of stuff.
So yeah, I don't know if I'm like, I don't know if I'm fully like on board with going to ICS, like they seem like they probably could have been a decent thing on their own, but I totally understand it as well.
I don't really see a lot of benefit in it either.
I still have a hard time conceptualizing what the merit of a token is whenever you're using like ICS.
Like why even have a stride token at that point?
Yeah, tend to agree.
So how, like what happens with the existing validators and delegations when you change over to ICS?
I'm pretty ignorant on ICS.
I haven't like really taken it much time to learn about it.
I wasn't in the test nets and stuff because I'm not a Cosmos hub validator.
So explain to me if you will a little bit about how that mechanism works when they change over.
Yeah.
So the way it works is kind of strange.
You become what are called governors.
Some people call it governators, but I think that that's considered.
Those gubernators in the chat.
Yeah, yeah, governators.
So basically the stakes still stays with where they were staking before.
So nothing changes there.
And then what that effectively means is that you are voting like you're basically using the voting power of.
The people that were delegated to you.
So the validators just become gubernators.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
And so purpose now is.
But they no longer have to run hardware.
And the only thing they do is vote.
Is that so?
I mean, if they're Cosmos hub validator, obviously they'd still have to run hardware, I guess.
But in terms of like the actual like, you know, function of the of the gubernator, like can anyone be a gubernator or.
That's a really good question that I don't know the answer to James says gubs don't need to run nodes.
Okay, so I guess I don't really understand how you would delegate to them really then because I mean the question came out today, you know, as soon as I see us when as soon as we went through.
I was like, should I pull my commissions beforehand, because technically you're not a validator there anymore, right you're validator for Cosmos sub, which it was fine.
Like I ran my withdrawal commissions just to see what would happen and it worked.
But there are a lot of unanswered questions like that.
That I think.
Go ahead.
Do do do like gubernators get a commission on their stake.
I think so.
Let me let me run my withdraw again and see if it pulls out more tokens.
It should right like I can thin.
Well, I mean, maybe it should only if you make a vote or not.
I mean, I don't know.
I think it's really weird.
I kind of like on the one hand, I appreciate that the validators that worked hard to be at the top of the set for stride earlier, like they maintaining their delegation so they continue to be rewarded for lack of better term for that for that hard work.
But also it's such a strange system to me.
And it doesn't match up with anything else right like nothing else has governators now suddenly there's this concept of gubernators in the cosmos.
Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing that like it's it's ironic that that's the thing that validators hate most about the cosmos is having to vote on shit.
Yeah.
Okay, so I still can withdraw commissions.
But interestingly, it didn't come with any like staked atom or staked at most or anything like that.
It just came with the normal stride commissions.
That's really interesting.
Maybe all that shit now just goes to the atom validators.
It was supposed to be 15%.
So whenever I did it earlier, I think because I had some like in the tank already, it did come with the staked atom and the staked, you know, Osmo, Luna, whatever.
But this isn't so so the hub has to take on all of the responsibility of validating and providing arguably like way more security for 15%.
15%.
Yeah.
And yeah, to add insult to injury.
That's 15% of, I think, 0.5% now, because stride reduced their commissions, it used to be 10%. But with the last upgrade, they reduced it.
And so now it's even even less of a portion.
Now, to me, I have to say, man, that's a fucking stitch up.
It is.
And I don't know the whole Adam economic zone thing kind of weirds me out, because if someone wants to join as a new cosmos validator, suddenly they need to run, you know, a multitude of nodes, which is a huge part of the process.
And so it's a multitude of nodes, which, okay, you have to do that for axar as well.
But for axar, my understanding is you don't get slashed if you're not running, you know, an Avax node.
Like you're supposed to, but you don't have to.
Where for cosmos like, you have to, that's really interesting to me.
That's really interesting how I don't want to say regressive, but it kind of regressive it is for for the new validators that want to join in.
So sorry, you're saying, sorry, I was just retweeting the, the fucking thing for the episode, because we didn't put one out.
But anyway, so I just caught the last bit of that.
So what you're saying is that if you want to end like say you buy yourself into the cosmos, or they expand the set or whatever, the people at the bottom have to run.
Is that what you just said?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
So you're saying the cosmos that right now you have to run neutron and stride and soon duality.
Neutron was, didn't they have the bottom 5% or 10% or something didn't need to run?
Yeah, you're correct.
But the kind of the point still stands like, okay, technically they don't.
But also, like if you're joining as a new validator, are you going to risk that?
Like, where's that information for you to find?
Is there going to be a table in the cosmos, you know, node set up that says, okay, so if you're in the bottom 5%, just don't run this.
No, they're going to set up every single one because they're going to be like, well, there aren't different requirements that that requirement is set by each chain and there's no standard for it.
So, you know, I don't buy that.
Do you think that like, really this is raising the barrier to entry to, to validate on the cosmos hub now?
Yeah, without a doubt, has literally three times the hardware requirements now.
And if not more times, yeah, two or four times.
Yeah.
I mean, to be fair, like, I don't know about neutron, but stride presumably is a reasonably light chain.
But neutron being a general wasm chain, right?
Is it permissionless?
It'll no doubt get pretty heavy if it gets used.
Yeah, it is permissionless.
Yeah, that is like the problem about.
So one of the things with permissionless cause and wasm is that, you know, there's no one like, there's no gatekeepers to those contracts.
And if they're like, terribly inefficient and huge, they can still go up to just expensive to use and they just fucking hard on the hardware.
And especially if they're like, ultra inefficient, you know, can affect block times and all kinds of shit.
So that'll be interesting.
I think that's a really interesting part of like, go ahead.
The funny part is, is that sorry, I just had a thought.
The funny part is, is that I'm sure Adam validators are very used to getting away with like, you know, a Raspberry Pi because, well, like the hub is probably one of the lightest chains in the ecosystem because it doesn't do anything.
Yeah, it secures value.
Yeah.
And it also causes consensus, right, and do transactions.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, that is probably the lightest chain in the whole ecosystem.
And now they're like, having to run all this other stuff.
I think it'll be a shock when, you know, neutron gets busy and everyone's like Jesus Christ.
I have to like, get decent hardware now.
Mm hmm.
I've actually been impressed by the engagement of the validators on the Cosmos Hub.
In previous upgrades, let's say a year ago, an upgrade would take like up to two hours because it just took people so long, validators so long to get engaged.
And that's what the month long voting period, right?
Oh, yeah.
It's terrible.
Yeah.
Whereas so far the ICS chains have just gone up.
Like, yeah, we have some people that aren't signing immediately, fine, whatever.
But all in all, like things are moving.
Like even, I think that even Coinbase was one of the first ones that started signing.
Like they might have even pre-signed this one.
Yeah, because they were like, you know, those like those like sex based validators were always like absent previously, right?
They would always be late to the party because, you know, it's not between nine to five or whatever.
Oh yeah, they killed it.
So Coinbase is up, Kraken's up, Binance is up.
SG1, the number two validator in the Cosmos is not up.
Multi-chain is not up.
Ledger is not up.
Wait, Ledger doesn't know Stiklab doesn't run, Figment runs Ledger, right?
No fucking clue.
I think it's Figment.
So that is funny.
But they are up.
Figment's up.
But interesting.
I think it's really interesting.
So it doesn't seem like too much of a burden on the big boys, but it definitely seems like a burden on anyone lower in that set.
Because I imagine even, even though like Adam's probably the most economical of all the chains, well, it is.
And even though they still have like quite a few validators in the set, right?
So I'd imagine those validators at the bottom are probably still just barely profitable as it is.
They, I think they're still quite profitable.
So the bottom one has, well, maybe not has 45,000 Adam on them, which means what is that?
That's like 50 Adam per month or so.
Give or take, which, well, they're also running a 1%.
So 10 Adam per month.
You do that in your head.
So say they were, say they were at 5%.
I'd say the bottom is about 50,000.
Yeah.
So just the commission per year is like, say 15%.
I mean, like the APR.
Yeah.
I think it's like 19%.
It's on its way down there.
Yeah, you're probably right.
Oh, let's just say 19 if it's 19.
Yeah.
So let's say they're at 5%.
It's 475 Adam a year, which is about 40.
About 40 a month, which is 350 bucks.
Fuck this.
Not too bad.
Why did I never get into Adam?
Well, I mean, the buy-in right now is still, you know, 450,000 dollars.
Not 5 million.
Oh, sorry.
500,000.
Yeah.
Well, if you look at the set though, most of the people not signing are at the bottom.
So there's got to be something to say about how low you are on the set to like how you
can handle that increase in cost, both the top almost everyone signing.
Well, it also might be that, you know, I think like engagement sort of goes to shit when
you're not really making like when it's not, when there's no big economic incentive, like
engagement can go to shit, you know, it's like, you know, I'm going like a lot of those
smaller operators would all be single person operators, right?
And it might come down to, you know, I'm going to go to dinner with the wife or fucking do
this stride upgrade that I've technically got half a day to do.
So I'm going to go to dinner with the wife, drink some piss, take it easy, come back and
slap an upgrade in when it suits me rather than like, you know, being one of the top
guys expected to perform, but getting paid very good money to do it.
Yeah, I can see it.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I mean, I don't know.
I'm not a economics guy.
I don't really know that stuff super well, but well, I mean, it's what I mean is that
your own like, if you're getting paid, say you work at Taco Bell, right?
And there's one guy getting paid $5 a day and another guy getting paid $700 a day for
the same job, right?
All you have to do is keep showing up and doing the work.
The guy who's getting $5 a day might be like, you know, I don't really want to go to work
today.
If I get fired or done matter, I can get another $5 job somewhere, but the guy who's getting
$700 a day to do the same job might be like, well, I don't really want to go to work today,
but I'm getting paid $700 a day to fucking just show up and, you know, flip burgers or
whatever.
So I'm going to go.
You know what I mean?
Oh yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down for sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I just like, I meant more in the global scope of the Adam economic zone, right?
Like, when does it start kind of rolling over where it's more cumbersome than it is beneficial,
right?
Like Stride is now setting the pace for, hey, we are now going to, you know, become of the
outcome.
I mean, what if Gravity Bridge decides to do the same, right?
First of all, that'd be really funny since they were funded by Adam.
But when, when does the snowball like go too far, I guess?
When do they take on enough junk that people start to get pissed off?
Yeah.
Cause it's definitely going to end up like that because they take like Stride 5% and
then 15%.
So hang on, if I were to do some math again, need to calculate it though.
So 15 times, sorry, 0.15 times 0.05.
So they're literally getting like, that can't be right.
Oh, cause the state, well, the stake is, no, what'd you say is, you said it was 5% right
that the, that the current APR is.
Yeah.
So, so 15% of fire, it's less than 1%.
It's 0.75%.
Yeah.
Of like APR.
Like what's the fucking point?
I mean, that's the thing, right?
That, and for neutron, I don't think, are we even getting rewards?
Let me check.
Like, why wouldn't you be paying 75% of your inflation because it's your, it's your security.
Like they're getting security for free.
For free.
Yeah.
But the funny thing is, is that it's not, it doesn't make any less, like, like it's,
it's no, it's no less resources or anything.
Like there's still all those validators out there have to run it.
And now they're just running it for free.
Yeah.
Jesus.
And it's, yeah.
And Rama says, why would you own stride token?
Because it's like, yeah, what's the point now?
Why do you even want that?
Is it, is it now a shit coin?
That's what I was saying earlier, right?
Like, yeah, exactly.
It may complete sense whenever stride has its own token.
Now I think it still does make sense because if you stake your stride, you're getting
far more in returns than like you're still gaining value from having it because you,
in theory, are still getting like your stake to admin stuff, right?
Like that's, that's how it kind of feeds back in.
What is the actual purpose of the stride token now though?
Like other than so you can stake it.
So my vision of what it was, and this being someone who has bought quite a bit of it,
was that it's almost like an atom ETF where like you buy stride and you stake it.
And by doing that, you are effectively getting dividends in all the tokens that use stride,
right?
So if you look at like my stride address so far, I've gained 22 Adam, 54 Osmo, seven
Staked Luna, 300 stars, 10 Juno, 100 Umi, one Staked Injective, 110 Staked Edmos, and
nine Staked Comdex, right?
Like that's not insignificant.
Okay.
So it's kind of like, you know, Koogee when you, when you have Koogee staked and you
just get this grab bag of shit.
Yes.
Yeah.
Which is a really, which is really compelling to me.
I think for me, I find that really exciting.
I think that that.
That makes me never want to claim my fucking rewards.
Yeah.
For Koogee.
Yeah.
That's a lot of taxable events.
Yeah.
You just get exploded with this whole bag of shit.
And it's like, God, can I just claim the Koogee in the USK?
Yeah.
But now I have a hard time with like what the value at it is.
Which is unfortunate.
So what's little days?
I'm going to look at the comments here.
So Gizje's van.
Sorry for butchering your name.
Hi.
It's lower, like half a percent odd.
Is that right?
I think that is right.
No, I think that's, I think it's a fraction of a fraction.
That's the right fraction, but I don't think it's 0.005%.
I think it's 0.5%.
Well, so.
0.75%.
So we need to get the fraction.
If you times 0.15 by 0.05, right?
Which are the fractions you end up with 0.0075, but that's not percent.
That's a fraction.
So it's 0.75% times by 100.
So I think that we, he's, so the way straight does is weird, right?
So the way you're earning that, that yield is through stride takes a 5% cut from the
stake Adam, right?
From your yields from that, right?
So that's just from stride.
And then as a validator, then you are distributed that difference.
So like, it's like 0.05% again.
Yes.
0.05 again.
Yes, exactly.
That, I think that's what the point he's coming to is that like it really reduces.
And so like the point is 0.15 is that's after you take into the calculations of, oh, strides
only getting 0.5% of yield versus 0.5% of the validator commission versus 0.15% for, or
15% for cost of validators.
It's 0.0375%.
That is fucking stupid.
Yeah.
It's 0.0375%.
Yeah.
Anyone do the math on that before they voted?
Yes.
Like it's the validators that vote, right?
Yeah.
I wonder if I put that in the proposal if anyone would have voted for it.
They'd be like, fuck no.
Well, and this is another thing, right?
That they didn't announce, they didn't say in the proposal that the commission was actually
going to be reduced in the same proposal if they were joining ICS.
So a lot of us voted yes.
And then after it went through, they're like, oh yeah, also this is a 50% reduction.
And I was like, okay, great.
I mean, like two times fuck all still fuck all, right?
Well, it was pretty good before, like not for Cosmos, but for like Stride validators.
It wasn't amazing.
Like we didn't get amazing yield, but I still think it was a really compelling case.
I think Stride was one of the, was one of the better app chain stories, right?
And now it going to Cosmos, like then why wasn't it just on Cosmos?
Like, why are we now creating it into a separate chain rather than it, why are people just not
building on the Cosmos hub, right?
That teams can then get tokens that they can sell and make money, so fund the development
is just, ah.
So I would say that this is good for stakers, but not good for validators.
The reason I say that is because, well, actually not even so much stakers, this is good for
big bag holders.
And the reason I say that is because the inflation now is very low.
So there's not a massive incentive for the thing to pump.
However, over the longer term, like people are going to want to use it, I suppose, for
the Stride's features, right?
But you're not going to have this constant dumping of rewards.
So I think over time, it's at least going to steady the price a lot or even potentially
increase it.
We're not giving financial advice here and I'm a peanut, so don't go buy Stride just
because I said that.
But on the validator side of things, it is a fucking bad deal, especially for the Cosmos.
Especially for the Cosmos of validators.
Yeah.
I mean, it's doubly true for neutron.
For neutron, if I'm remembering correctly, and I may not be, so don't hold me to this.
I'm pretty sure it was also like region gated.
So their value add was like, hey, like you as a validator, we're going to give you this
initial airdrop for running neutron and then there's not going to be any inflation.
You're running it, you're not getting any rewards for it.
And I don't think I got to claim any neutron.
Like, okay, so we're running it and we literally have no rewards for doing this.
We're literally just paying extra to run this.
That's not very cool.
That's super not Raven.
It's seriously going to be like, like we were saying before, it's going to be a lot more
to run than the hub.
And these like, I have to wonder, like the atom validators are probably very used to
not doing upgrades and maintenance as well.
And these being newish chains with features, I could imagine are going to have a lot more
burden in that respect as well in upgrades and attention.
You know what, I actually didn't even think about that aspect of it.
Yeah, like it's suddenly just an order of magnitude.
Well, not literally since there's not 10 chains yet, but it's suddenly like the amount of upkeep
each one has just gets significantly more difficult.
I guess if any of the Cosmos hub validators watch this particular podcast, they're now going to say
suddenly, fuck.
Oh, there's poor bastards.
Yeah, I mean, sure it gets, yeah, I mean, it gets more value for Adam, I suppose, in a sense,
in that it's, Adam's now, Adam now has a use case.
But like, I just want to know why, why would stride have like, in my mind, this is like,
it wasn't a wise choice.
What did, what did they get paid?
What did they do?
Like, what kind of deal was struck such that stride decided it was a good idea to go ICS,
especially whenever the set was really stable, like it was reliable.
I don't think there is any fear of like an attack, like where they needed that market cap.
Like, it feels to me like he was doing really well.
So what was the deal struck that made them do that?
That's a really cynical take.
And I'll take that cynicism.
But what happened?
I think you're right.
I think stride was doing just fine on its own.
It wasn't like, it wasn't at a point where there was a security issue.
So, you know, and that's to me like, resorting to the hub for security is something you would do if you were a new chain and wanting to go that route or having a security issue because your token price has gone to shit and it's highly distributed or can be bought up.
You know what I mean?
That's what made me think of Gravity Bridge, which I mean nothing bad about Gravity Bridge.
In my opinion, they are criminally underpriced in comparison to like Axolar.
Like Gravity Bridge actually has a lot of usage and yet their price is a hundredth of Axolar.
To me, it doesn't make any sense.
But that's why I brought them up because like their price to value ratio is completely out of whack.
So it would almost make sense for them.
It gets scary when there's a lot of TVL on a chain and their market cap doesn't reflect that, which gets scary when you start looking at it and you go, well, if someone was doing the slow burn here and just buying these up slowly, slowly, there's every chance that at some point they could under the radar get enough token to actually do some damage to this chain.
And at some point, you know, you can't even, you can't, it's irreversible because they've got enough voting power to make sure it doesn't go to, you know, an ICS chain or something like that.
But well, Gravity Bridge, the TVL is something like 10% of, excuse me, the TVL is I think 10X what their market cap is.
Yeah, that's pretty dangerous.
Yeah.
So again, like I can see the value in chains like, you know, the, what's the one called that has Circle, USDC, I always get it in Neutron mixed up Neuron.
Neutron?
Which we're talking about.
The one that's having the stable coin USDC, it's not Neutron, isn't Neutron the ICS wasm chain?
Yeah.
Which one's getting Circle?
The one with Yelena?
Oh, Noble.
Noble's getting Circle.
Noble, yeah, yeah, Noble.
So Noble's getting the USDC.
So I could see like why you would want it as an ICS chain, but it is just a private chain anyway, basically.
The validators on there all have the same stake, they're just, I don't think that'll ever be, well, you know, I don't know.
They are intending, they are intending to change it to do token launch and stuff.
So while that's true now, yeah, it's not permanently true.
I always kind of just assumed that that chain would be strictly controlled by the foundation and that there'd be like just a separate staking token so that they could control who is in the set.
That's what I kind of assumed as well.
But from what I've heard, that's not true.
Like they just had a $20 million valuation token sale recently in order to like get their tokens into start actually staking and stuff.
Is that chain, is it sole purpose for USDC?
That's my understanding, yeah, to be a vehicle for USDC.
So I mean, why, like why even have a staking token and sell it?
It makes no sense to me.
You would think that the token would be USDC in that, but you don't want it to be inflationary.
I thought you would just pay your validators and have the ones that you want that are reliable and then just have it as USDC for IBC.
I mean, that's kind of a existential question, right?
Like, why are a lot of these chains on blockchain?
Like, why are there validators?
If you have a bunch of validators with one stake, therefore they all have 10% vote, like, does it matter?
No, it really kind of doesn't.
Why are you on blockchain?
Well, I mean, in this instance, you would want to be, it makes sense to me for circle because you would want that blockchain just for the IBC functionality, right?
So you want to be able to say that these are, you know, USDC that are native to the ecosystem.
We might run the thing like, and this is, I guess, not the case, but, you know, if they were completely just running it with selected validators the way they want it, I don't see a problem with that.
I mean, it's a little bit more decentralized in terms of fault tolerance and not being run entirely by, you know, circle having 20 validators run by themselves by the same DevOps team.
So it's a little bit more reliable in that sense, I think, but you still have the control over it that you want.
And I think you should, because of the economic value of bringing, like, there could be a billion dollars in USDC.
I would absolutely want to control that fucking chain and not have any risk of it being like, they did a $20 million valuation, you say, is that a valuation or they sold $20 million?
That was a valuation. They did a token sale at a $20 million valuation.
Okay, so you've got a $20 million valuation and potentially a billion dollars worth of tokens come across.
Yes, so naturally people were like, yeah, I'll buy in like a Barrett chain. Barrett chain has a $690 million valuation if I remember correctly.
And it's not to make a lot of EVM chains because I've gone on record on Game of Nose many times being in favor of Evmos.
It's just an EVM chain, right? $690 million seems like a lot.
Well, I mean, say where I think they lost valuation was like $800 million or something, right?
But they're not just another EVM chain, right? Like, they're pushing the envelope in a lot of ways.
They are, yeah.
They're going faster. I think they're doing a lot of really cool things.
Grant, I guess you can say the same thing about Barrett chain. I don't know about Barrett chain, but $690 just seems outrageous in this market, right?
Like you're saying that in the next bull market, they're going to be at $7 billion when they launch? I don't know.
It seems outrageous when the functionality already exists.
Yeah. I mean, maybe that's a better way to put it, right?
So let's see. If there are $700 million valuation, that puts them at around the level of injective or phantom in terms of market cap, that is.
An injective's EVM, right?
Yes, it is. It's heavily, heavily modified just as Barrett chain will be, but it is EVM, yeah.
And I don't know. The only thing I've seen from it right now is that it has like sick memes, right?
Which it's like has big DJ energy.
Yeah. I mean, that works for some people.
Yeah.
Oh man, in other news, it's fucking cold here at the moment.
Nice frost this morning. I've just come back to like, Temworth for a little bit.
And I was going through throwing out some old shit from the shed that I've been told I need to organize and clean up and throw stuff away.
And I found all these old jumpers.
This hoodie I bought when I was 14.
I need a better look of it then. You got to stand up.
Like, I just got to have some crazy graphic on it. That just is really embarrassing.
No, it's so there's an old skate brand in Australia called Juice Clothing, but it's like an extra large or 2 XL or something.
It's huge. So you could imagine like 14 year old Null walking around the streets in this thing and it would have just been like a garbage bag draped over him.
Yeah.
Well, I wore a trench coat when I was 14. It makes me feel any better.
Yeah, never seen that logo before. Almost like the Quicksilver logo.
I can stand far enough back for it to lie.
No, yeah, I can see it for sure. Yeah, absolutely.
But it's huge and I love it.
So I'm going to be wearing this again. It's back in rotation.
Actually, you know, this is completely unrelated to the to the potty, but I lost this other hooded jacket and I've been looking for it for two years and it was in this bag of shit.
Yeah, just talk amongst yourself if you will talk to myself.
Yeah, for just 30 seconds. I'll go chuck this thing on you. I love it.
Okay.
Well, I guess I will talk amongst myself.
And so I live in Portland. Portland is not cold. Portland has been going through a what's called a heat dome.
And so it's been over 90 for the last, I think, three weeks.
That's a great one.
Yeah, I've had friends that had that one or looked similar to that where it's like, is it the kind of cake that tweed feel?
Yeah, it's like really it's it's pretty thick and and just like just a nice material and it's my partner calls it my hobo jacket.
And I had actually thought that she threw it away on the sly.
But no, I found it gave it a wash and it's good as new. Feels great. Can't wait to wear it around Melbourne.
That is like that takes me back to high school where like all the stone would wear a jacket look just like that.
Yeah, 100%. But it's a man, it's just like, I reckon it's the logo there. It's like it has a male and female sign intertwined.
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's like the they're like joined up, I suppose.
Oh, God, the camera keeps going high.
But I don't know, kind of makes me it hides my my fat as well. So it kind of makes me look a little bit better.
Right.
All right, so I did have like that wasn't my only news. The the story starts 42 minutes on on news item one.
Okay, here we go.
Thank God we haven't had the phrase banner running along the bottom.
That's cool. Yeah, so I mean, like my notes were pretty skint on that as well, by the way, they they my notes consisted of stride on Cosmos Hub, the second consumer chain to use.
No issues reported on the transition will now most likely have a shiny mint scan banner.
Well, so for mincecam, what's interesting right now is that they actually don't show the governators first right.
So for neutron, the way they show their validators is oh, they don't know they do show validators.
Okay, so they're my first right and neutron they showed the same but for stride since they have this concept of governators.
It's, I don't know, I want that to pop up and show because right now I.
Oh, they so they've already got the ICS little cheerleader banner, but they're not at the top right.
Yeah, that's that was immediately what I noticed they weren't shoved up the top there so.
I mean, what does that mean? Is that is that mincecam trying to flex some other shit on them?
That implies a certain level of coordination that I'm not confident in.
I feel like everything mincecam does mean something like in the background.
There's there's some, you know, there's some deals being done every time something happens on mincecam.
I feel like.
I don't know, like I'm still in the minority with saying like.
Mints can kind of defines.
What a tender man or cosmos chain is at this point. Yeah, you can show up on ping dot pub, but nobody knows how to find you if you're on there and peanut pub.
I absolutely love peanut, peanut pub. Absolutely love peanut pub.
But like conto they don't consider it so it cosmos chain however they're on peanut pub.
Right, they have IBC enabled.
They're not on mincecam. Wait, they are on mincecam. Never mind. I take that back. I don't know.
There are some chains that are actually doing fine economically that aren't on mincecam.
And I think that they do fine because they're not on mincecam.
Ooh, that's an interesting take. What what chains are you thinking of?
I don't want to I don't want to mention it because I don't want to draw attention to.
Now, I mean, you're on firm a chain, right? It does fine.
It does fine. It's in the Korean market and it's not on mincecam and it does just fine.
That's actually a really good point. It like it's very market dependent.
So we are also on aura, which I don't believe is on mincecam. It is not and they are in I think the Korean market as well and they're doing just fine as well.
So I think they mainly sort of, you know, because they market to their own market, right? And then I don't think they particularly give too much of a shit about the rest of it.
And the for Korean based chains, there are some very strict rules in Korea around KYC for operations on on the chains.
So I believe that firmer chain haven't put it on Osmosis or anything like that themselves because of the Korean requirements by the government.
So I don't think they know how to tackle that or care. So why would that stop them from putting it on Osmosis, but it's on a bunch of other exchanges?
It's only on sexes as far as I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So why would the customers, the customers on sex chains are KYC'd.
Okay. I'm picking up what you're putting down now. All right.
Yeah. Whereas like, you know, the dex is just open slather to anyone.
What else did I have? So Lovanna launched this week on Osmosis. And the reason I know this is because I got temporarily addicted to it.
Weren't they originally like in an exclusivity clause with Juno following terrorist demise?
I do not know about that. I don't know if they had any growth funds stuff, but I mean, it makes no sense for them to just do Juno stuff because the Juno ecosystem is struggling and there's still a company that needs to make money.
I don't know what the scope of stuff that they were delivering on Juno was either. From memory, it was something more around NFTs. I don't know if it had, if it was their perp's product.
Wait, they don't do it. I just thought they just did like dragon NFTs. They do more than that?
No, so there are perpetuals on Osmosis now. So like leveraged trading.
Oh, I don't know. Osmosis needed that. Now for me, mind you, I'm way too risk averse for that, which I say as a DGN validator.
Well, I took my 10 bucks of Adam over there and had a good old run for a couple of days playing around with it until I inevitably got liquidated because I'm not a good trader.
How did you find it? Where can I find it at?
It's trade.lavana.onense. So it's actually unsupported region, classic.
Oh, yeah, they are geo blocking the shit out of the US. Everyone's scared to do business in the US now in blockchain.
And I mean, he might as well geo block it and just let the diehards use the VPN, right?
I wouldn't say it's just now. Like we were on the axlar test nets, but didn't get to be validators because they decided that only what is it called, certified investors of the US can actually be in it.
And I'm not a certified investor, whatever it's called. And so couldn't be. So that's been happening a long time.
Certified investor. So yeah, I mean, it's not new and it's still very, very present. Like for example, dydx, they don't want anybody who's affiliated in the US just because of the issues that comes with it.
So which is totally fair. Like, yeah, I can put a lot of heat towards the British government like the UK government, but at least they have some sort of like rulebook for crypto.
The fact that the US is crypto system is fine and we will sue you even though it's a big shrug. That's not cool. That's no work for anyone.
The laws are undefined and when we decide what we want to do retrospectively, we will sue your ass. So yeah, I mean, that's that is not a very fair or a good way to do business.
But I don't know. It's interesting. I'm sure I'm sure that a lot of people will get sued that will take the fight to them.
Similar to XRP, but I don't know about XRP, but similar to what they did, I guess in fighting the good fight.
I mean, that's a decent thing to bring up. Do you have that new news list, the XRP thing?
No, probably should be though.
It should. Yes.
As a whole in the ecosystem. So did you want to explain that one, Shilty? I've barely followed it over the last five years. Do you know more about it than me?
So I know a decent amount, but I feel like I'm not in a good place to explain what it's about because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Like people. So the ruling came out. So so XRP, let me let me back up a bit.
Ripple, they had printed a ton of coins and then sold them a bunch of them. Right.
Actually, that's not true. So Ripple. Go ahead.
Ripple actually bought all of the coins off the person who created what originally was called Ripple and then was changed to XRP.
So the token used to actually be called Ripple when it was first created. The guy, there was a couple of founders and and Ripple bought the lot, the technology, all of the stuff.
So. OK, so that's why that guy is like for a very brief period was the number one richest man in the world because they bought from him.
That's the CEO, Brad Garlinghouse. He's the CEO of Ripple, but he owns a lot himself.
Oh, or is it sorry, he owns a lot of shares in Ripple, right?
So 60% or at least back in 2017 or whatever, 60% of all of the Ripples are on rolling unlock schedules that is all owned by Ripple.
Right. So there's 60 billion tokens last time I looked into it that were out of 100 billion that were owned by Ripple themselves.
Right. So back in the 2000 and oh, and sorry, how this works is every month.
Why were you trying to get me to explain this whenever you apparently know way more than me?
Well, I thought you might have known more about the SEC shit. I'll get to that. OK.
So there's there's 60 billion locked up. There's one billion per month that unlock and it's on its there's 60 of these contracts that unlock each month.
Right. So a billion, a billion per month unlocked. So five year unlocked period.
Yep. And a billion unlock every month. But what they do is that it unlocks, they take out what they need and sell for operations and then lock up the rest.
At least that's what they used to do last time I looked into it in like 2018 or 17 or whatever.
So presumably that's still what they're doing. But it's like a pretty slow rug on the on the other owners.
But anyway, so during that bull run where it went up to like three dollars or whatever, momentarily, Brad Garlinghouse was the richest person in the world.
Because Ripple was worth a shitload and he owns a lot of the company.
So that's just an interesting tidbit.
But so the for the longest time they were selling their products to banks, right, and other institutions and stuff.
But these are products that are built that don't actually even use XRP, like all these settlement products and stuff.
So there's only a certain amount of things.
They don't actually use XRP.
So there's they have a bunch of products, right? I can't remember the names of them at the moment. But one of them, for example, is like a settlement protocol between, you know, financial institutions and and big business and whatever.
But it doesn't use XRP.
But then there's like other general products that do use XRP.
So it was a little bit gray when at some points they were flogging XRP by promoting these other products, which had nothing to do with them with XRP.
So that was interesting.
So the original founder, I can't remember his name, but he was just basically selling most of his Ripple for years.
And I think he's mostly out of them.
But I do believe he had a pretty big percentage and is now probably a rich as fuck.
What else can I tell you about them?
So XLM is a fork of Ripple.
Really? That I did not know.
Lumens are a fork of Ripple.
They were or maybe Ripple is a fork of Lumens.
So I think the original project, I can't really quite remember what happened.
I don't remember which one was the original one, but I remember that I think maybe the community continued on with Lumens as an open source project after Ripple bought the main project or something like that, or after the Ripple company took over Ripple, the blockchain.
If I remember correctly, Ripple's big value add is they marketed for international bank-to-bank transfers and remittance payments. Is that correct?
Yeah.
I think remittance was a big thing.
They were marketing XRP as cross-border remittance, but I think it was still more to be peer-to-peer not to do with banks. They've got other products that for end-of-day settlement and stuff on banks.
So for the record, in college, I actually began building a remittance or like a blockchain for, not a blockchain, but you try to use a blockchain to create an app for remittance because remittance is actually really interesting.
This is more for users than for you know, or for people that are listening.
Because remittance, in my opinion, is one of the better use cases for blockchain. Not necessarily because blockchain is so efficient or whatever, but because the current institutions that run remittance programs like Western Union are so inefficient.
So Western Union, the last I checked, they had a 35% base fee, I think, and like a 9% transfer fee. So remittance is like say you're an Indian worker and they go work for Intel and they make $100,000 a year.
They frequently, like their family will stay in India and they will send back, you know, let's say $50,000 a year back to India for their family to live on. That's their wife, that's the kids, that's their parents.
And so if they're sending back $50,000 a year, let's say they're doing it every month. So if they're doing it every month, that is $400 a year just in the base fee.
And then, you know, another $5,000 a year in the remittance payment to Western Union for like allowing that transfer, right? So we're talking almost $6,000 out of $50,000 to send back to their family.
Absolutely ridiculous.
That is insane.
So, and that's such a common thing, like that is the main GDP of many countries is remittance payments, which sounds outrageous, but like that's the way it is.
So that is such an incredible use case for blockchain to make it easy to go border to go across border and like get payments through really awesome use case.
So I can see why Ripple blew up. But anyway, continue.
I forgot what I was saying.
I kind of did too. I rambled there a little bit.
So, okay, so we're talking about Ripple and the founder, he was selling a bunch.
The technology behind Ripple, like it's not even about the Ripple token necessarily, and we were leading up to why the SEC sued them.
I actually don't know why the SEC, SEC originally focused on Ripple as opposed to like ETH in the beginning.
I think it was an easy target.
Like XRP is primarily owned by one company.
And then that company has sold off tokens in various like raising events, right?
Back in the early day when you could buy it for a tenth of a penny.
And now, you know, I guess they so and I really wish Eric was here this week.
Oh, sorry, you server, because he knows a lot more about the issues that the SEC were taking with blockchain in general as securities.
But I believe that they were trying to argue that they were selling a stake in the company or like you're investing in the company, not the token, which I mean, it doesn't even seem right that you could even try to claim that.
But that's, that's what they did.
So let's fast forward a little bit to the statement on like Friday, I think it was.
So the SEC sues Ripple and they, I guess, don't even go to court.
I think this is kind of where this ends up.
Friday, I think it's Friday.
The statement comes out that this can go into like a further court.
This is this is where my confusion with it is.
And is that the statement itself, like of by the court didn't actually say that like Ripple won, they're just saying, like, yeah, you can continue, which is kind of what confused me about why this was such a big deal.
But there were some interesting points in it.
So one was that Ripple selling their tokens was not like Ripple the company, not Ripple like the token selling their tokens was not there's a clear distinction.
The token is called XRP, not Ripple.
Okay, fair.
Yeah.
XRP.
So Ripple the company was sold XRP, but that was not considered a security because they were selling it to people who's not considered an investment vehicle that they were selling.
However, exchanges that listed XRP, them selling it without clear regulatory regulatory ruling, I guess I'm not really sure how to word it.
They might be in trouble for having sold it because it could have been a an unregulated unregulated unregulated security.
Thank you.
Unregulated security and therefore they might have been breaking rules, whereas Ripple itself because it wasn't and then some kinds of investment vehicle, totally fine.
That's the really interesting bit to me.
They just make shit up.
It is make shit up.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, I guess that's probably why the market isn't doing as well over the last few days because people actually read it and were like, oh, this doesn't actually mean too much.
We still have a long ways to go.
But I remember reading it and being like, does this mean anything for us?
Not really other than the price.
XRP got a great pump.
It got like a 50% or 100% pump.
Sweet.
Everything else got a couple percent pump.
Cool.
But now it's back down.
Like what?
I mean, that's what the crypto does, right?
I mean, I guess it's good.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess it's good that things are moving forward, right?
Like this isn't just being in the purgatory for lack of a better term of the core system.
This is saying like we need to actively move this forward.
So let's get off XRP because I don't think that either of us know like enough about it to have a good in depth conversation.
Yeah.
That's fair.
That's a good idea for sure.
I think we're just like, I appreciate your comments, but I don't think that either of us know like enough about that whole situation to like, I mean, I'd love that.
I'd actually love to have someone come on who actually knows a lot about it.
I think it's interesting.
I think it's important for the ecosystem.
Don't particularly care too much about XRP itself.
Yeah, I agree.
So something else interesting that happened this week was a massive opportunity between the Dex's and Coinbase with Osmo.
Did you see that?
No, I didn't.
So Osmo was trading on Coinbase for $1.65 for many hours.
Really?
Well, it's not a $1.55 for many hours.
No, I don't use Coinbase.
But yeah, so who, I can't remember who actually put this.
I got this off Twitter.
What was it listed?
When?
I don't know.
But it was between two and four times higher than the price of Osmo elsewhere for a few hours.
And someone estimated that there was about $5 million in ARB captured.
Wow.
That's outrageous.
That's an outrageous sum.
Yeah.
I think people are having a lot of trouble actually making deposits onto Coinbase to try and capture that.
So maybe the lucky few actually were able to get a profit out of it.
But still, that's a pretty incredible ARB.
I don't think we see much like that around the place.
Arbitrage gets a really interesting, bad rap in my opinion.
You say ARB and from what I've seen, the people I've interacted with, they've always kind of given me this weird look of like you're taking advantage of something.
And you are.
But it's not like a malicious thing.
Arbitrage is just trying to create that equilibrium.
Exactly.
Arbitrage is one of the most important functions of traders across platforms because it keeps the price similar across all the platforms.
And that's what you want.
You don't want, well, you do want wild gaps so you can make arbitrage.
But then as a consumer or a normal person, you just want the price to be the same everywhere.
But, you know, they're important for the ecosystem, especially DEXs because you need to like, you can just bid up a price or bid down a price on a centralized exchange.
Take something with a bit more liquidity like Ethereum or something.
If there is a thinly traded exchange somewhere in Ethereum, so say there's like a new exchange, they don't have shitloads of users, but, you know, ETH traded on there all the same.
If they don't have ARB bots or people arbing and people can just bid up or down that price ridiculously because there's like thin makers and takers, right?
There's not much depth in the order book.
So the advantage there of like people arbing with ARB bots is that they will actually utilize the order books and the liquidity depth in DEXs and other sexes to stabilize that price.
So I think that's really important for so that people don't get burnt.
And particularly like in countries where there's only limited access to centralized exchanges as well.
So I remember for a while in Australia, before they had stable coins, you could only buy certain cryptos in Australia and you could only use the Australian exchanges because the other ones hadn't broadened their business to Australia yet.
There was no Binance.
There was no Kraken.
There was no Coinbase.
There was only like Australian created and run exchanges.
So and there were ARB opportunities there.
I remember BTC markets just between BTC markets and Binance, I think you could get like probably I think it was like seven or eight percent pretty constantly.
Well, that's how FTX began.
If I remember correctly, Sam Bankman freed and I guess a couple of people, they had an in with the Japanese Regulatory Commission.
I guess let's call it that, where they could ARB off the Japanese market, which is always higher because they were so limited and then like sell the difference in the US.
And so the way they got the original money was exactly through that was arbing Japan versus like worldwide exchanges.
And then they kind of employed that with an FTX itself.
And then just stole everyone's money.
Yeah.
Rama says doxed and gone.
I don't know.
Did I dox someone?
Well, maybe someone knows you're on a group from Australia.
Pretty sure that's obvious by now.
Try not to like use people's names, but I do fuck up sometimes.
So sorry about that.
Whoever I doxed or me if I doxed myself.
All right, man. Well, that is like, that's actually the end of my, my news for the week.
I can add a couple of things to that.
All right.
That's good.
So my researcher hasn't started yet.
Really?
What a slacker.
My researcher has begun.
So this is kind of more of a general statement, but I think it's really interesting how so many projects are transitioning from, you know, like Eigen layer or an or a layer to into cosmos chains.
So, um, doyx is one example wormholes, another example of chains where they decided that the best move was actually to exit the ethereum ecosystem and going to the cosmos and hyperlands.
Another state is another.
I find that really surprising.
Maybe I shouldn't say that.
I'm like a cosmos ecosystem podcast.
We are not any longer.
That's true.
We're not any more.
We are a general blockchain.
Yes.
You are right.
So I've got a couple of like thoughts, I guess, on that type of situation.
One thing that is really difficult for new cosmos chains is that they need to market to an audience.
Right.
And what happens is if you start a blockchain in the cosmos ecosystem, you inevitably market to the cosmos ecosystem.
I think that the technology is good with the cosmos SDK.
I think it's really accessible to teams and very powerful.
IBC, I'm a maxi on IBC, not vocally, but, you know, inside, I've got high hopes for IBC.
You did just say you're an IBC maxi.
So inside to well, it's the only way I could let you know, you know, but I'm not out there like talking about my fucking gluten free bread that I eat every morning or whatever the vegans do.
All the people I'm not telling you about my yoga I do four times a day.
Anyway, what was I saying?
So these particular protocols, dydx, wormhole, they already have a robust user base and are very good at marketing.
And I don't think that they would be moving over to cosmos unless it had a clear advantage for their protocol.
So I think because they already have an established brand that they can do that comfortably.
And I think it only benefits the cosmos ecosystem, even if it steps on toes of people who are already here.
Oh, I agree for sure.
Like this is a huge boom to the cosmos ecosystem.
But it makes it to me it's it's utterly fascinating because it kind of it makes true Juno or I guess a any permissionless cosmos and chains like value add right like a theorem is permissionless.
This is where this really is project started.
And then they got their audience they got their product built and they're like, hey, we need a different scaling solution.
And so then they're coming and creating a chain in the cosmos because they see that that is the best solution.
And I find that utterly fascinating.
And I'm of course also an IBC maxi.
You can see our reeling stats to prove that.
And I think it's really cool.
I do still find it surprising because they are such wildly different ecosystems like going from, well, I guess probably dy dx is running is going to be like an EVM or an MOS for kind of deal.
But using go to develop your, your, your blockchain is a huge change.
Go ahead.
I was just, I was just thinking I was actually just thinking whether dy dx is a fork of a MOS.
I guess they probably probably is.
Yeah, well, they're there EVM right.
So, yeah, I mean, I guess they didn't necessarily mean they're a fork of MOS, but they certainly would like deploy their contracts on like an EVM chain as opposed to rewriting them and cousin wasm.
I guess was the point I was trying to make.
I think the killer feature like just sort of off topic a little bit for the cosmos ecosystem will be when they crack IBC connection to EVMOS, to Ethereum.
Like that's when they have like a pure native built in IBC with Ethereum, like that's when the cosmos will really take off.
I'm not sure I entirely agree.
I almost wonder if it'll do the opposite where the cosmos will be forgotten because Ethereum adopted it, right?
Like it'll have some interchange like interconnection obviously because it's IBC.
But once Ethereum gathers, like is attached to IBC, then you know for a fact that like the next day, Solana is going to have it and then near is going to have it and then Aptos is going to have it, which is awesome.
But that doesn't mean that the cosmos is also going to be raised up when Ethereum gets IBC.
I think for me it comes down to the ease of liquidity flow.
So at the moment like say if there is something that you want to use in the cosmos ecosystem, right?
So say if let's say Lovanna has some killer feature on their perps platform that everyone wants to use.
At the moment you either have to use a sketchy arse bridge or you have to like buy into something that's in the cosmos ecosystem on a sex and you can get it in that way.
A lot of people don't want to deal with a centralized exchange at all.
There's a lot of like whales out there from the early days who don't really want to be tracked like the early days of Ethereum and Bitcoin.
They don't want to be through a centralized exchange at all.
I think getting liquidity from the Ethereum ecosystem for those people to the cosmos ecosystem requires the use of a bridge, which is sketchy as shit because they're just trust based on those two contracts, right?
And you see them getting exploited all the time.
I think if there was like a way more highly secure way of doing it, it happened more often.
That's a good point.
So I lose me in the chat.
It is IBC.fun.
It's a new, this is relevant, I promise.
It's a new product by Skip that is you can use this website IBC.fun and do a swap from, let's say you want Adam on the Cosmos Hub and swap it to
Umi on Axelar.
You can do that one click.
That's crazy.
That's insane, right?
And adding it to Ethereum like enables that.
That is really cool.
And if you if you could integrate that and you can make all that work, that's super cool.
Can you do that with satellite as well?
Like Axelar satellite?
Can you swap doing that?
Because this is a swap.
This is going to find the most efficient decks to go through to say I want this and I want Juno over on stars all in one transaction.
Yeah, I think so.
It'd be interesting to know how that actually like what the functionality on the back end of that is because there is a new protocol that's been
worked on by, I've probably talked about this before, Ping.pub's the main developer and it's called.
Oh, that's right.
Side, that's the one.
Yeah.
So they've got the ICS.
What are the I think it's called ICS?
It's not copy ICS.
The thing is ICS 100 101.
What do they call them the interchain standards?
What are they called?
It's ICS, right?
That sounds right, but I'm not certain.
Because isn't that what interchain security is called?
ICS?
Yeah.
I was talking about like Cosmos.
Yeah.
Like ADR type of things.
Yeah, there's ADRs, but there's also like the actual standards.
Yeah, ICS.
Yeah, I think it's like, okay, yeah, ICS.
Yeah.
Why would they call two things the same thing?
I'm sure interchain security is called ICS.
I mean, you're pretty limited on your acronyms when everything starts with fucking interchain, right?
Well, but the point stands, right?
So like, IBC.fun.
That's really cool that you can do a swap like that.
As far as I know, I don't know of anything that could do like a swap from Ethereum onto NIR, right?
I don't know if anything can do that.
So I promised I wasn't getting off topic.
The two standards that they've, side protocol have actually, I think they've had one incorporated into the GitHub and they're working on the other one.
And by now they might have both of them in there.
But one is for, so they've got into, one of the protocols that they're getting a standard for, they've been working on a standard for is interchain swapping.
So it actually has liquidity on both chains.
And you can do like, oh, I can't remember the exact details, but it was pretty interesting.
And it's similar is what I was, is the point I was getting to.
But the idea is that, you know, you can, you can swap your atom for Juno, but just as an interchain transaction using liquidity on both sides, rather than actually sending your atom to Juno.
So, yeah, sending your sending, it eliminates like a bunch of steps.
I sound like a peanut.
It's early.
No, no, no.
That makes sense.
What you're saying is if there's a lot of liquidity on one side and one on the other, then rather than bothering with the extensional steps of like using relays and stuff, you can just do an immediate swap to atomic swap effectively, right?
Yeah.
So that's, yeah, atomic swaps.
Yeah.
It was interesting.
I'll have to go back and read it so I can talk about it more in depth probably on a later episode because like those guys are working hard on that.
They've got a bunch of developers now as well.
I've seen some mockups of the interface and that's coming along.
Well, I mean, that's the superpower of, of IBC, right?
It's that there's all these different chains, which we as validators are aware they're all different chains.
But as we get further and further along, like on osmosis, you're no longer going to have to say deposit atom or whatever, which like to us, that's really simple.
I've tried to explain it to people why you're depositing it and they have a hard time grasping it, right?
Whenever it becomes more and more seamless where you're no longer even having to worry about the fact that I'm into the chains, that's incredibly cool.
I think that is just, that's brilliant.
And I think to your point that that like, if Ethereum is such a leverage cosmos contracts through doing that, yeah, that would be like if Doudaou suddenly ends up on Ethereum because they're able to use it through interchain contracts.
Amazing.
There's definitely people working on that type of stuff and the is very much a user experience improvement.
And that's the, the nut that they need to crack to really make like reduce the friction of using the cosmos ecosystem is that user experience.
And I think that I think a lot of people know that and I think a lot of people are working on that.
So, did you have, did you have anything else on your list of news?
No, I kind of aggregated everything together in that statement, just the fact that I think it's really exciting and surprising that so many projects are transitioning from Ethereum to the cosmos.
In a lot of ways, it really makes sense and a lot of ways it makes less sense to me.
But regardless of my opinion on it, I think it's really cool and it's really exciting.
I think the success of these projects that are trying to come across will really sort of pave the way for whether or not other projects come across.
So, if DYDX makes the transaction and just falls on their face, sorry, the transition and just falls on their face and loses all the users, I don't think we'll see a lot of other projects trying the same thing.
I have a hard time seeing how they would fall on their face, right?
So, if they've already got their current users, the way that the cosmos is really kind of functions, short of the tendermint falling down and not being able to support it, which would be deeply surprising considering it worked on Ethereum.
I don't really see what could go wrong.
Like they're not even using Kepler.
Like they basically have all of the same things they currently have, but on a faster blockchain. I think it's really exciting.
So, I don't think it's, I think the DYDX blockchain at the moment is, what is the, so at the moment they're on Ethereum, right? They're not on L2.
No, they just, I think so. I believe that's correct.
Yeah. So what the blockchain time on Ethereum is 12 seconds, is it?
Block time.
That sounds about right. Yeah.
I think it's about 12. At least it was when it was proof of work. I assume it's still pretty similar.
So I guess there's two things, is the actual throughput capacity as well as the actual block speed.
And I think at the moment, the DYDX block speed is probably around two or three seconds, which is a 6x improvement.
So, it's,
Well, there's also finality. I think at 12 seconds doesn't guarantee that finality for Ethereum.
Is there, I'm going to be brutally honest here.
I don't know too much about the differences now that they're a proof of stake chain, but I would imagine that the finality element has changed since they've become proof of stake.
So, I think, I think it has changed from being for being proof of work, but I don't think it has the same finality as Cosmos.
I think there's still like confirmations and stuff.
I'm not certain of that by any stretch of the imagination because I don't use ETH too much, but I believe so.
Ghanzi says, as far as I know, they are L3 on stockware.
DYDX is?
Is he talking about DYDX?
I'm like three.
Fuck me, we need to learn more about like the wider ecosystem.
We're like fucking just beating our dicks against the wall here.
It's nice to see Ghanzi here. Good day, mate.
Yeah, I feel like I haven't seen him here in a while.
Yeah.
No, it looks like DYDX is a layer two.
DYDX layer two decentralized trading platform.
I don't think it's layer three.
Yeah, it's a layer two.
Oh, yeah, it's layer two powered by stockware.
Okay, yeah.
So, I don't know if that's considered a layer three.
I don't know.
Can you tell me what in the fuck stockware is?
No, no, I cannot.
I assume it is a method for creating layer twos.
So, if I remember correctly, layer two is effective like ICS versus like a roll up is actually a smart contract.
And so I imagine stockware would be the equivalent of like the Cosmos SDK.
All right. Okay.
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess that's something to do some like research on.
Stockware is an L2 of Ethereum.
Okay.
So, where does L3 come from?
I guess that means that they've sort of built their protocol on stockware.
That sounds right.
Yes.
Well, so different layers are like different ways of like getting back to the layer.
The layer one is Ethereum.
Layer twos are leveraging the validator ecosystem, but they have like their own kind of validator set to confirm the boss that goes up.
The layer three, I assume is just one more layer below that.
But does that make sense?
For anyone who's watching, listening to this, yeah, we're both here scratching our heads and you can physically see cogs turning trying to like figure this out on the fly.
So, I honestly don't think we're doing a very good job of trying to figure it out.
I mean, I think it's all just terminology, right?
It's all lingo.
Like stride, I think it's now technically a layer two.
Neutron, I think is technically a layer two.
Geez, don't say that.
Cosmos is a layer one, right?
Like people call it a layer zero.
No, it's a layer one.
Yeah, but they don't have their own validators.
Like, like ones that sort of have their own validator set and then roll up transactions and flick them up to the L1.
Like, I don't really think that.
Hold on.
You're mixing up terminology.
Roll up some layer twos are different.
So, keep that terminology separate.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, man, this is fucking.
What happened?
I'm 99% that stride and neutron would now be considered layer twos because they are using the security of the top level validators to secure their blockchains, right?
And you are still running the nodes as a validator for the lower level networks, right?
So, like, it's different in that for stride, technically, they're still validators.
We're still a validator for stride and then it rolls up to the Cosmos and Cosmos finalizes it quote unquote.
Like, there's a lot of quotes here, right?
Because like the terminology here is very unclear.
So, I think that stride and neutron are just layer twos now.