I don't know. We haven't seen like major names disappear yet, but.
Welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent
validator teams.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Game of Notes, the podcast about the cosmos.
Hosted by individual validators.
Thank you very much.
I missed 68 episodes.
I don't have the words in front of me.
So welcome to the potty.
We were just musing about what in the hell we're going to talk about today,
because it has been pretty done quiet on most fronts.
And yeah, so I guess, guys, we were talking about potentially
it being quiet enough and people bleeding cash for long enough
that maybe people are starting to leave.
It's it's pretty quiet out there.
The the discords are fucking ghost towns.
Yeah. The I don't have Twitter.
I deleted it. So I don't know what's going on over there.
Ah, yeah, man. I really good for you.
I for I like for what for?
Can you know they're for normal?
I still have the accounts.
I only post if I need to go in there and post and then get the fuck out
because reading Twitter for me is like pretty depressing these days.
Yeah, I have a habit of just like walking away from things that I don't like.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, I decided back in 2010 that I didn't like the news.
So I ripped the antenna off my house and I haven't watched three to wear TV since.
You're not missing much there.
Now, I do the same thing.
Like if I get pinged on something, maybe I'll check in.
But like if I go back and just like scroll through,
I'm instantly turned off in like two seconds. So well, I found that
while I was at the gym, I was scrolling through Twitter in between sets
and it was making me angry.
So I had the app.
Yeah, I mean, granted, it was particular people that were making me angry.
But, you know, as a whole, it didn't seem to be healthy for the old noggin.
So I said, ah, fuck it. Let's get let's get rid of this.
Yeah, there's some that still follow like a lot.
Like I still get like for some reason I have golden ratio.
Like I love that guy's Twitter account.
It always it always makes me laugh.
And like, I think that this commentary is like right on.
And so I he's I only get pinged on a few different few different things.
So he's always one I get pinged on just because it always makes me laugh.
But yeah, but you got to stay away from the side of it.
You just have to stay away from the just the constant shit show.
Yeah, I mean, I always go ahead.
Well, I always tried to like avoid blocking and muting people as well.
Like so you'd have the full picture.
But then I realized that there's just so many fucking knobs out there
that are just being knobs for engagement and ruining my day at the same time.
So yeah, I mean, yeah.
Just get out of the room, I guess, and then go out and get fresh air
and and spend more time doing work.
My my favorite Twitter to follow is the lady that did
it, but does what is it? Web three is going great.
Yeah, there it is. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I Molly White Molly White.
I follow her and I think she has I don't entirely agree with her, obviously,
because, you know, I run a validator, but I think that she has very acute observations.
She does that for me.
It's like she gets 90 percent of the way there.
And I'm like that last 10 percent.
She just kind of doesn't quite sell it on for me.
But right. Yeah, Reese says I only have no block to my stomach.
It's somewhat true. Yeah. Oh, shit.
We've got a we've got a celebrity in the house.
You know, slow.
Yeah, that website's great.
I'll put it like the shelves for folks who don't know it,
but it is a bit depressing.
I will say that.
But if you Google like Web three is going great, there's it's just basically
just news about, you know, not the not the positive side of this.
Oh, yeah. Is it is it set to Iro?
No, oh, it's no.
It just calls out like like either breaches,
things going out of business scams like all basic.
The Web three is going great.
That part, that title definitely starts.
That's that part's definitely sarcasm, but it's good site.
Couple of things for it are finance order to halt operations in Belgium.
That talks about a little bit.
One point two five million stolen in two months in polygon and fishing scheme.
Prime trust halts withdrawals as acquisition falls through and then
it's just put into a receivership.
So it's like a lot of it is actual things that are going on that show that Web three is like.
It's worth to do.
Bookmarking.
This is I like the way they've got to light out like a like a little time one.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that little total in the bottom of a total dollars lost about.
0.642 billion at this point.
Yeah. I think it's a lot lower than it should be.
I wonder if that includes Mt.
Gulks, I don't know how far back it's not that.
I mean, it's only a couple of years. Right.
Yeah. Isn't that bad?
But you can you can also search like you can you could focus it down just to Cosmos if you want,
which is pretty cool.
So you can throw it up.
Oh, I didn't know you could do that.
Yeah, it's under blocking.
It's not that it's actually not that much under there because.
Because cosmos is one chain.
No, I think it's ecosystem ecosystem.
Yeah. Yeah.
Monero holders plan a bank run. What?
Terra accidentally transfers 36 million of incised funds to inaccessible wallet.
Yeah. Right.
It's just it's just a yeah.
They get to have it under the news.
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's worthy.
This is yeah, I stopped.
I stopped watching this actually.
It gets to be a little bit too much.
Oh, God. Too funny.
Uh, yeah.
So on the on the plus side, though, there is there is some pretty promising.
Well, I mean, bigger type networks, I guess, coming to and test netting
in the cosmos at the moment.
Like who know who you saying who's testing coming up?
Well, Alio is talked about.
Alio. There's like Diddy X or something like that.
Diddy X.
Alio and Diddy.
Alio, Alio, Alio, Alio.
Alio.
Alio. I don't know how to pronounce it.
I I have a habit of pronouncing things wrong.
I've noticed I'm I'm getting corrected a lot.
You put the process on the on the wrong syllable.
Yeah, definitely.
I'm fastest on the wrong syllables. Mm hmm.
Well, saying that say, say, wait, wait, wait, hold on.
Yeah. Alio isn't cosmos.
No, that's that's that's Evian.
Yeah. It's a new L01.
Is it L1? Yeah.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
It is. It's not tenor.
It based. Yeah. Yeah.
It's different.
Alio.
Pronounced with a long M.
Thanks, funky.
So that that Diddy X one is, I guess,
testing very soon or has tested it, right?
That's so that's just moving across
because they're getting moving to their own
tenor base chain.
That's pretty cool.
Launched last night, I believe.
And it already has some some big players in there.
The big names and some small ones in the couple.
Most of the ones people know about.
The ones with Twitter accounts and shit.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
So then what else is going on?
Oh, man, you know what?
Like, I haven't really been keeping up with
all of the test nets that I mean,
you know, I saw a poker to mentioned one the other day
that was a newie.
If I can find to the dang chat.
So to to to.
No, no idea.
Yeah.
Well, what else we talk about?
So tenant is tenor, mid based,
but an EBM compatible chain that that's gone to test net
recently just in the last few weeks,
maybe a month, a little bit more than that.
Obviously, we talked about LAO that that's L1
on the VM side.
DYDX just launched her test net.
That's pretty exciting, actually.
Say he's been in test net for obviously a long time, right?
But we hear that there's rum links about maybe getting closer
to some sort of thing that may resemble main net
at some point in the year in 2023, we hope.
Yeah, it's time for an announcement.
There's a lot.
I mean, that's two major.
I mean, both say and DYDX is two major exchanges launching
with tenor mid based chains in one year, which is,
which is maybe not great for both of them,
but but still good for the ecosystem
and good for the technology.
So.
So it is.
It's two big boys and they're both like in the same category,
I would say, like pretty, pretty firmly in the same category.
Even like even maybe in the same category as,
injective as well.
So that could be an interesting shake up.
Hey, it might just bring more attention to that, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah.
DYDX is also bringing, I mean, they're,
they're replatforming.
So they're bringing across a pretty massive user base, right?
Where say is say is basically launching fresh.
So they're trying to attract projects and other types of things
that be able to take advantage of that.
So, I mean, it is pretty exciting with DYDX
because there's now native US,
native US DC through noble,
which they can IDC directly to,
and they've already got a massive, massive user base.
So, and they're going to expose all of those users through IDC.
Then immediately they'll be IDC with noble anyway for US DC.
Is say doing that, I would assume, right?
I'm not sure.
I don't know how that works.
I mean, obviously it's IDC.
I mean, obviously they can IDC no different than anything else.
Just don't know how it would be,
if it would, what the UI would be on, within the app for that.
Yeah. Well, I mean, they're,
I'd say don't have their own UI, right?
It's all like launch partners.
So I guess anyone can implement it.
It's permissionless wasm.
So anyone can start a protocol, but sorry,
I just stopped while I was thinking there
because anyone can open IBC channels anyway, right?
The IBC channels aren't permissioned.
So it's easy enough to do.
Right. And the other thing to think about,
and I'm not sure, like, I think this has buzzed past a lot of people,
but Kava is, did I say that right?
Kava? Kava? Kava?
Kava. Kava. Kava.
Kava is being native USDT.
So that's going to be launching.
I think like in the first week of July.
It's also a hell of a thing to do.
Like to choose Kava over basically anything else is just outrageous to me.
Yeah. I love to hear the backstory on that, right?
Like, they must have, how did that,
do they put off that to bid or something?
Or like, are they, like, how did that work in terms of USDT
actually selecting a, a IBC-enabled chain in the cosmos?
And anybody know?
Like that would be, that would be curious what that story looks like.
Because I agree. Like, out of nowhere, right?
It seems like it probably went like this.
The Kava Foundation went to USDT people.
Hey, do you know USDCs coming to cosmos?
Natively, do you want to do the same? Hey, we've got a chain.
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it was proactive, right?
We should make blocks.
Right.
And they're like, to be fair, they are one of the higher cosmos chains up there.
They're like, what, a hundred or something versus, you know, secret,
like 250, I think. For TVL, you mean?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
I guess that's kind of a,
I'd be interested in what the IBC numbers are with that.
But is that just a benefit of being early?
A bit? I don't know.
I'd say it's like, injectives above it.
So you think injective might be better, but, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
I don't know. I wonder how many active users are on Kava.
It just comes up so infrequently with other validators that we talk to.
But that happens out of a bunch of cosmos chains, right?
Like it's kind of like different ecosystems within the ecosystem type of idea.
Like MediBlock has a pretty decent TVL,
well, not TVL, what is it?
Market cap.
And it's it's not very heard of.
So can you guys hear me all right?
My microphone is like further away than what it usually is.
Yeah, it's fine.
Well, you have an answer voice on because you're in the you're in the upper left.
So that makes a big difference.
That activates a Nouns of Voice.
It does. It does, I think when you're in the upper left, you have to.
Yeah, damn, you got to step up.
Come on from the closet.
I do it for the ladies.
Yeah.
So like to me, though, you know, maybe, I don't know,
I would have thought something more like injective would have been a better place
or maybe even jam it on noble with the USTC.
At least at least for your ex, you're in one basket then.
Nothing could possibly go wrong.
I'm sure it'd be fine. Yeah, it was surprising.
Like, I'm glad. I mean, again, we've always talked about the
the importance of like native stablecoins and the seaco system to actually have
something as a way to encourage growth.
And so having both one native as a chain and one come in, however,
it's happening through Kva, I think is a positive thing.
So, you know, we can't no matter how they get here, I think it doesn't have to be set in stone.
That's to be the only way that that USDT shows up here as well.
So but but the idea that you have some stable showing up here,
I think that's that's positive.
Right. Can't can't complain about that.
It's funny that if you go back like maybe five or six years
and mentioned stablecoins, they're all like, you know, they're
everyone hated stables, especially USDT, like everyone.
The the the the line was about the auditing.
And, you know, that they're just going to fold and steal all your money.
And same with USDC in audits.
And the sentiment around stablecoins,
although everybody used them, the sentiment around them was like, not great.
And now we're all like sitting here fucking begging for them.
No, don't give me wrong.
I still think they could fold and take all our money.
Like that risk is still there, but our bar is much lower now in terms of
in terms of desire.
So I think it's it is what it is.
But yeah, it was the previous USDC.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, go ahead.
So after the previous USDC, deep-paking for, you know, the weekend,
it puts such a different light on USDT.
I had USDC and I ended up selling a bit of it at like 97 cents.
Because like I've already lost out on Terra.
Like I'm not I'm not taking this again.
Yeah. So like even at a three percent three percent loss,
like there was no question that I was selling it.
So got rid of it.
But Terra didn't or not Terra, Tether didn't Tether didn't deep-pag.
And that's such an interesting thing that like we were we, the greater we
like have this idea that because USDC was like somewhat backed by like banks
more officially, but that also means it's it's it's super
like taking out the knees because of it.
Yeah. Maybe maybe that's a little bit too dramatic.
But it put a different light on on USDT for me.
Yep. Yeah.
Well, yeah, I think I think the the deep-paggings
are like more a function of the AMMs.
So like USDC has deep-pagged a bunch of times and so is USDT.
And it's mostly because I think like when you get like USDC
was trading above a dollar when everyone was freaking out
a couple of weeks ago with the SEC crap when everybody was like selling
their shit into stablecoins.
And I guess like fast forward a week or so, then we're going the other way.
Everyone's like selling off the USDC to get back in.
So if you do that in a in a like CEX, then I think the mechanisms
work a little bit better there to keep it pegged at a dollar.
Because of the speed of those speed of those databases and all the arbitrage
arbitrage in there and market makers.
So I mean, it may like if you're if you're savvy and can program,
it makes sense just to sit there and take all of the action
where a coin is not at its proper value.
So like I would if if I if I if I if I if I if I if I if I if I if I
if I had the time and the know how I would make a bot and buy it up
anywhere it was outside a dollar and then sell it off any time it was above a dollar.
Because it makes sense.
It's a stablecoin, right?
And that's a pretty easy like in the one ecosystem.
You can do that.
But because of AMMs, I think that that's like unless you've got
some pretty effective MEV, then they can like temporarily DPEG.
And I guess that proliferates through to like coin get going in that type of stuff as well.
So what do you mean proliferates through?
That's probably the wrong word.
Like filters through like if it's yeah, propagates through the databases up to just
to showing that.
Yeah, like chose that.
Yeah.
But if you look at the history of the
But if you look at the history of I might just do it now.
Have a look at coin get go and look at the history of USDC.
It's going to be all over the place.
You know, I just checked and it's not as over the places you'd expect.
It doesn't really show like USDC went down to I think 89 cents and it's not showing that anymore.
It shows 96 cents.
So it might be it might be at the granularity too.
Because I think I remember that that tool set also depending on what the time frame is, it'll it rounds things off pretty hard.
So if it went down to 89 for like, you know, half a day or something, I might just actually just average it out to whatever.
Yeah, that's what it seems like it did.
But yeah, during that day when it was in the 80s, it didn't feel like, you know, 96 and a half cents, which is right.
Like the biggest that had ever reached.
So even in March, it definitely had a fucking stumble this year.
Yeah, the March was whenever it went down to 89 cents or 88 cents.
Yeah, so if you can tighten it up to that time frame in the little bar down the bottom and you can see there's definitely like for whatever reason, there was a shit load of volume around that time.
So well, that was whenever SVB went down Silicon Valley Bank and so people were freaking out and they're trying to get out.
And then we realized that like we couldn't redeem USDC right now.
Like Coinbase had closed it, so that kind of became a vessel, I suppose.
Man, that is low too.
That is 86 cents.
That's a big discount.
It went down to 86.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, it looks about about 87.
I can't get right in that 89.
Hang on.
Let me tighten it up a bit more.
I gotta say, that's a that's a big balls blockchain move to buy USDC at 87 cents.
Yeah.
I did not have that in here.
Like in big volume too.
Like if you're like, I got a hundred thousand.
I got a half a million.
I'm gonna throw it in my bite USDC at 87.
It got out to about 88.
87.8.
That's a big balls blockchain move right there.
You can do that.
I don't like the I don't like the the coin gecko interface and charting.
I don't know where the do you know the list?
What exchanges are pulling that from?
I don't know.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
If you scroll down, it shows you all the exchanges they're talking.
They are using.
And usually they would weight those as well because like we pull we we pulled coin gecko
prices for on the chain link side.
But but I know it's like a mix of different types of you know, different exchanges.
I'm just curious because like there's from markets, right?
Well, no, there could be massive discrepancies between exchanges on some of these types of things.
Yes.
Depends on reserves are what the trading is and everything else like you could have a
wide wide wide gap between exchanges on on what for something like that.
So it looks like that's an interesting pool.
It looks like the biggest guy far is by an inch that they're pulling.
Yeah, the biggest finance.
Yeah, it makes sense.
So it's the biggest buy bit.
And I think they must weight those somehow.
I don't know what the hook they do there, but they must weight that based on the volume
or something like that.
They actually get a reasonable price.
So if like if Kraken has 10, you know, 5% of the volume, but but the price moves much
farther, I'm guessing it's not equally weighted across everything else.
They must look at volume or something similar that I must admit, I've never heard of buy
bit and it's got the second highest volume and it's a lot of volume.
I have heard of that.
Isn't that I don't think we can use it here in the US.
Remember, actually, but the the biggest pool is the USD seed USDT pool.
Really trading pair.
Yeah.
Just fucking arbitrage all day on that shit.
Yeah, just up those minus 0.0001.
Yeah.
Um, well, I mean, yeah, that's well, yeah, I mean, what do you like if you are arbing
it?
What do you what do you have it with?
Like it's either going to be US dollars or some other stable, right?
Yeah.
No, you're between those two and you're just you're just you're probably just yeah, you've
taken half a million dollars and throwing it back and forth between those two as a fluctuate
up and down and just trying to keep growing it.
Yeah, taking into account the maker and taker fee though, you'd have to have a pretty decent
spread.
You would?
Yeah.
Or you're on the exchange like, yeah, well, I know you have to be.
Yeah.
Good point.
I don't know.
So I'm not I'm not a code.
All right.
I wrote my own Arbot back in 2017 for shits and giggles in Python when I was just learning
how to use Python and it was fun, man, trying to like it was more fun working out how to
do it like effectively than actually like using it.
Yeah.
So there was like a bunch of problems back then and one of them was that like the stable
coins weren't so prolific, right?
And they weren't like in Australian exchanges specifically mostly.
Yeah.
And so when you're arbing, you would have to have like a pool of coins on both or a
bunch of exchanges that you wanted to arm between because at the moment at that time,
right, there was like a lot of by pressure coming from Australia with people trying to
get into the to the market, right?
And like they didn't have access to Binance.
They didn't have access to Kraken and everything back then.
It was only like a handful of exchanges in Australia.
Unless you like once you had gotten your fee out and then you could go and do like DGEN
shit anonymously on other CXs where you just need an email address type thing.
But the Australian ones, yeah, there was the only entry point was through our exchanges
and they were expensive.
And so what you had to do if you wanted to arbit is you'd have to do Forex as well.
So you would have to like calculate risk based on, you know, sort of a range in Forex of
how much it could move over a couple of weeks historically or a couple of days or whatever
the it takes to actually do a Forex transfer from Australia to like a US bank account.
Getting a US bank account was the other thing or being able to like put in Australian dollars
into a US exchange or like a USD supported exchange or any other fucking exchange anywhere
else.
So then you had to like look at getting foreign bank accounts in Australia with USD currency
that could transfer to those.
A lot of banks were like blacklisting exchanges and any transfers to exchanges.
They were like debanking people as well.
But yeah, then it was like the other thing was the depth of pools.
So you couldn't just take the headline value like the last traded, you would have to like
look into the book and see like what kind of volume you could push up and down the book
before you lose your spread, which was kind of interesting as well.
And like all these different factors in the end, like I never finished it and it was too
scary to press go on.
But I did well, it was the Forex was too hard to reliably like there's too much risk in
that time because it wasn't like sending sending a USDC from your wallet in the Australian
exchange over to like your own wallet and then into like Binance or something like that.
It's like two days in the ether or three days in the ether while it's transferring over.
So you got you got all this like Forex risk and at the same time, like during that period,
you've got like the risk of your assets in these pools as well or like in this other
currency because you sort of have to hold both.
You have to buy in and sell out of both at the same time and then whichever ones are becoming
depleted, you have to like send token over there or Fiat depending on what's getting
depleted.
I actually wrote a bot in 2020 and did something like between four and eight million dollars
in volume over the course of about six months.
I made like $10,000 off of it.
So I was like, nah, and it was like many hundreds of thousands of transactions.
So the tax man shows up at your fucking door with a pipe.
I want to talk about the transactions.
I had to print off all the transactions and it was literally like this thick of paper
because like they wanted like every single line item and then I had to pay like $6,000
to maybe crypto coin tracker or something in order to process all of them.
Like it ended up being like super like it was fun.
Yeah, it was good.
I enjoyed writing it, but man, the payoff was not there.
I'm obviously not a good data scientist to pull that off.
But yeah.
So as far as mine went was I would run it and just log all of the opportunity like over
weeks just to see that it wasn't freaking out and doing like random stuff.
And then the market sort of fell apart.
And then I was like, yeah, enough.
Back to the day job.
I don't know why everything's shit in the bed today.
Like the US market has had a pretty flat day, but like coins today are just taking a bit
of a shit.
Ethereum's down 3% and Aptos at 8% today.
Ethereum's down.
Cosmos is down.
Osmosis is down.
Juno's down.
Stargate's taking a real dump today.
Juno's down.
Jesus.
Can you believe it?
Bad sign.
ATL after ATL.
The slow, yeah, 25 and a half cents.
Like why wouldn't you be shorting Juno?
Like was there money in shorting it?
You can short it on Max C, I think.
He's their money.
It goes down religiously.
That's gotta be it.
Yeah.
Anyway, maybe race knows race should be short.
Juno.
No.
Don't do that.
Bitcoin just about getting back underneath $30,000 again.
Yeah, I don't know.
Everything was looking good.
Of course, anytime I put a sell order in, even if it's a limit at.0001 more than what
the current price is, no matter what it fucking retreats from there.
It's like my ability to pick the high for that week is a thousand for a thousand.
It's a mess.
Yeah, everything is down.
I can't sell anything at the moment anyway.
Yeah, agreed.
Yeah, it's just too painful to sell anything that's cheap.
Honestly, this is awful, but at least in the Cosmos chains that we run, I haven't even
pulled rewards.
I haven't really been compounding that much.
I haven't done too much in anything in terms of.
I have left all of my rewards for sitting probably a couple of months.
Yeah.
I mean, that's well, most of them, but that's mostly a function of tax time is coming up.
Yeah.
The liability transaction.
Yeah.
So let's leave it till next financial year.
Yeah.
Oh man, everything like the stock market took a fucking fat dump last week here, like a
real big fatty.
What are the big stocks in Australia?
What do you, what do you follow like banking?
BHP.
Yeah.
Yeah, mine isn't banks over here a big bit.
I'm not really invested in any of them.
My stocks are more like medical stocks, some, some tech stuff, supermarkets, blue chips,
that type of shit.
Retail shit.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
What about breaking rocks?
Is there no breaking rock stock?
I thought that was the thing.
Breaking rock.
Breaking rocks.
Yeah.
You said that that was like the biggest export is that you take rocks, you break them down,
you ship them to other places.
That's literally what you said.
Oh yeah.
We ship out dirt with iron ore.
So can you invest in that?
What the hell?
Stocks in dirt.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't invest in miners.
I had like a bad experience about 10 years ago and that was enough for me.
Yeah.
What was it?
I can't remember.
I bought.
I bought, honestly, a very good experience and a very bad one at the same time.
I think I bought like a bunch of mining contractors or something or, and then they took a fat
dump at the end of 2013 or something, which kind of like shook my boat a little bit.
But at the same time, I made all that backup almost exactly with one that went well.
So it's like the VC mentality, right?
You just sort of fucking throw them out there to come up.
You only need one to come good.
That's right.
And when you, and the biggest piece of that is you have to know when it's good and take
advantage of when it's good.
That's, that's a harder part too.
I know you guys were talking about that a little bit last week when, when funky was
on too around, around, I think you guys had a conversation around the, you know, like
the winners that you had or like when you got lucky on specific type of things or when
you sold it 200% or 400%, right?
And I think there was a combination of comments around either did not sell at the right time
or sold too early, right?
Like you sold Ethereum at up 100% or 200%, but honestly, that's a huge win.
You just got to go find the next one, right?
Or go do it again.
And so I did the same thing in Treadfly.
Like me too, me too.
Buying low is really easy.
Knowing when to sell is extremely hard.
Like apocalypticly hard.
Like it's extremely hard to figure out what is the right time to get, to get, to get rid
of something because you don't want to be missing out, right?
And if you find the right time and like you're DCAing up and something and everything else,
but again, like anytime that you sell something for 100%, 100% of profit on something or you
double your money, fucking put your feet up on the desk, right?
And go down to the next one and you can't look back at them and be like, oh, fuck, I
missed on Bitcoin.
But if you bought it 400 and sold 800, that's still a good goddamn trade, right?
So the part I struggle with when investing in like my own entity, my personal entity,
my own name is, and it's similar with validating and shit.
You incur like a tax liability when you sell your shares, right?
Sure.
So strictly talking about Treadfly.
So, you know, I sort of start thinking to myself like, okay, it's up 300% or 400% or
whatever, but if I sell it, then I'm going to be sacrificing 15% to the, because after
you've owned something for 12 months in Australia, you get like a 50% capital gains discount.
So you're like, all right, I'm going to be sacrificing like half of whatever your non-tax
rate is.
So say if you're paying 30 cents in tax, you're going to be paying 15 cents in the dollar.
When you sell it, you incur that tax liability.
You're like, can I recycle this in the meantime and make another meaningful gain?
Or on the flip side, what is the chances that this is actually going to go down 15% and
not keep going up?
So, you know, because you instantly lose 15% of it when you fuck it off.
Yeah, you lose, correct, correct.
You lose 15% on the profit of what you gain, not on the whole amount.
Well, if you're going at multiples, then the initial outlay becomes insignificant.
You might as well just count the whole thing as profit.
Yeah, but if you were going at multiples and 15%, who gives a fuck?
Right?
That's the whole thing.
It's like you get in a situation where, oh, there he is.
So you get in situations where you're saying like, you know, like you'd rather hold on
to it where it drops 100% and you go, fuck versus taking a 15% tax hit on something that's
a major gain.
So I agree.
And it's also, you're not taking 100%, you're not taking 100% of the 15%.
That amount goes into the overall thing of what you're doing.
So if you're selling and buying on a couple of different things, if you have some losers
or whatever else, it all evens out, right?
Or it doesn't even out, but you know what I mean?
Like it all goes into the mix.
So it's not like you're just making 15%, like whatever.
I definitely harvest those fucking losers right before tax time too.
Everybody does, right?
Like same thing in Tradfire, even like in this business too, you want to be able to take
advantage of that, right?
I'm pretty sure that's why our stock market took a fucking huge dump last week.
What?
Oh, well, yeah, that's interesting actually.
Well, that's why it happens in the US too is because people, there's a little bit, there's
some rules around that here in the traditional finance area with those rules do not exist
within crypto here.
No rules exist within crypto here, but there's nothing around the idea of being able to sell
losers and then buying them the next day.
I think there is some rules around that here in that you're not supposed to do it.
You're not supposed to sell them and immediately buy them back or even the next day.
I'm sure that exists here too, but like what does immediate mean and like does it mean?
Who is fucking going to like go through all the ledges and go, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,
or if I sell it here and I buy it someplace else, like no, no, we're back.
Well, you're not here.
So what the fuck?
Well, yeah, you weren't here to keep the shit one track.
Isn't this the reason that you have asset pools?
So if you have like a pool of X shit coin and a pool of Y shit coin, then if you reduce
the pool of your X shit coin like the day before tax day and then you were then to buy
them back a couple of days later because you're only dealing with that the delta on that pool,
you would then just immediately, but you would know about, I guess, things you'd still harvest
a capital gain.
You would harvest the capital gain.
No, you would create a capital gain loss for the year before, but then you would pick it
up.
So if then if it went back up, you would just be recording a different delta against the
same pool, right?
So you have a new, you have a new cost basis.
I mean, if I, if I sell it, only the delta matters for working out your taxes in an individual
year.
Yeah.
So yeah, you have a different cost basis, but the government is always going to get
paid, whatever.
If you actually take dollars off the table and you're making money, yes, that's the
idea.
But the other thing is like, I can't believe we're back on tax, but like, what I've always,
what I've always, like you want to be smarter on tax, but I would never make financial decisions
based on the tax consequences associated that in those types of situations.
Like that's the same thing.
Like people say like selling a business or like we're making too much money.
And yes, you're taking down, but you're also taking dollars off the table and paying a percentage
of that and trying to avoid that and, and, and bypassing the ability to make a profit
for the purposes of tax is to me, a bit ridiculous.
Like, like you want to be tax smart.
Don't get me wrong.
Like there, there are clearly strategies around reducing tax tax structure around that.
But the idea of like making my investment decisions based on the tax consequences where
I am putting myself at more risk or I am reducing my rewards because of that is different.
So I think you absolutely, I think you absolutely should include tax in your consideration,
whether you're taking profits.
Like it's a part of the conversation in your head.
It's a part of conversation.
That's true.
Yeah.
Like it's, you know, one is the, you know, how is the company doing?
Like what is its future prospects?
Has it, is it mooning and you should get out or, you know, all these other things.
The things that you, you like think about when you, when you're doing your math on their
revenue and, you know, their market, how that market's going, et cetera, et cetera.
One of the things is tax, you know, you got to consider it.
It is, but, but like to say, like to say to like, Hey, this thing is at 400% but I don't
want to sell it because I'm worried about tax consequence.
That's fucking ridiculous, dude.
No, but yeah, it's definitely not the only part of the conversation.
But it is 15%.
Right.
Like that.
It's time to, it's time to get the fuck off.
But like, but selling is selling is really, is really fucking challenging because that
15% is sometimes 35%, you know, 40% depends on, on where your bracket sits.
But from a quick Google, by the way, the reason that there probably is no rule around crypto
is because of the holding period thing, right?
Which doesn't, there's no rule around that.
To my understanding of US hacks law in this area, which means it's slightly different.
And the, the wash trading rules from a, again, from a quick look are different in different
countries based on a capital gains tax.
Right.
If they don't have something like, you know, distinction based on period that you hold
it, which a lot of countries don't, then as long as you don't literally, a lot of countries
do seem to have like a 30 day cooldown, just so you can't do like blatant stock market
manipulation would be my assumption.
Because you could be a really big company deep in your own stock and you could do really
bad stuff, I guess, like, but that's inside a trading.
And like, but inside it is inside a trading illegal in every country.
My guess is no.
No, I think it would.
Yeah.
I think it is.
Well, most, most, most first world established economies.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to get Google says I've got a quite one would hope curious.
Like in Australia, if you, if you hold stocks in a company, even if you're a fucking employee,
you can only trade them in windows.
There's only certain windows you can trade them in to avoid like insider trading.
And that's because of like reporting season and what people know coming up to reporting
season.
If there's like any merger acquisition or anything like that, like corporate actions,
they actually have to announce a window that you can like buy and sell the shares in.
I had to Google if Australia was first world, but it is.
We had a developer man.
We sell fucking raw.
Isn't that like a weirdly not PC statement or something?
What first world?
Yeah.
No, I mean, it's like a very established economy and financial system.
No, I know, I know, I know.
I don't know.
But it's like first world's like Western country, second world's like influence.
Third country is so it turns out the rules on a company doing.
Weird stuff with its own shares.
It's a lot more complicated.
Like what is legal and what isn't legal?
And this looks like definitely some stuff that's borderline, but not quite inside a
trading that a company can do.
And it's just like, well, hmm, they might have a good reason for doing it.
It kind of seems like in general, like the rules are all about like systemic stability.
Like if a company starts doing something that's obviously just to mess with the merger rules
or competition rules or whatever, then it's probably it's probably maybe illegal.
But I think it usually depends if in the countries where the leadership is doing the same thing
and if they've gotten caught in that same thing.
And so if they have gotten caught, then therefore it's illegal.
If they haven't got caught, then usually they, you know, kind of work through it.
Yeah.
To be fair, that's why money laundering is so crazy legal and easy in the UK because
it's like anything that the upper class might need to do to shuffle around money or manipulate
elections using, you know, money and influence.
It's just like, well, you know, City of London, dodgy company in the British Virgin Islands,
totally legit.
You can do that shit.
You can do whatever you want.
Hey, Ross and Oligox, you want to do the same thing?
Yeah, come on, City of London, be our fucking guest.
But once they don't need it, then it's like, oh, what the fuck are you guys doing?
Like this is bullshit.
Yeah, it's like, it's like, well, hold on a second.
Hold on a second, people.
Hold on a second trade unions.
Wait, you want to not be fired without cause?
Whoa, that's definitely illegal.
Let's let's try and outlaw that shit.
You're like, hey, you guys are literally selling the company to Russian gang, the country to
Russian gangsters and somehow that's legal.
But over here, you can't protest.
So you have no right to protest or something like, what the hell?
It's like you have one rule for the super rich and whatever.
It's crazy.
Anyway, who the thunk it?
But so you know, we had Knowles News Corner last week.
I'm wondering if you guys covered the fact that between the last episode and this episode,
there was a coup in Russia and then a counter coup.
By the way, I was listening to that live.
I was fucking laughing my ass off.
He's like, Knowles News Corner.
I was expecting this Cosmos news.
He's like, no, let me tell you about the supermarket story.
I was like, what the fuck?
And Schultz is like, oh, you mean like the news?
Like I was laughing my ass off.
I was like, holy shit, we're going through Australian fucking supermarket news of somebody
throwing cans of peas at somebody else.
I know.
I was like, holy shit, how bad, how bad is the fucking bear that?
Of course, going forward, we will start doing some crypto news.
But you know, I was on the spot last week.
It's all I could think about.
Let me tell you about this lady.
I was looking in newspapers from like 100 years ago.
And man, newspapers back then were amazing.
Like half of the newspaper is Johnny Silver came to town last week, one line and the next
line, David visited his mother.
It's amazing.
I love newspapers.
Old school, early Twitter.
Yeah.
Early Twitter was the same thing.
My brother came to see me.
I had corn for dinner, right?
Yeah.
It was such a nice, such a nice innocent time before.
Now it's like, fuck you, you fucking open source motherfucker.
I remember Twitter in like 2010.
It was amazing.
Like actually genuinely really good.
I met like there were loads of people on the music scene in Manchester that I didn't know
particularly well because I was studying there at the time.
And I just followed people who I vaguely was aware of their band or like maybe would
play with ones or something like that.
And suddenly I had like all of these people that kind of, I guess like your one step of
removed from on the same music scene.
And then suddenly you just like know everybody.
And then you go to a gig and you're like, hey, we all know each other from Twitter.
And everybody's like, hey.
And it was like, oh my God, we've actually made real life friends on the internet.
This is amazing.
And then you like flash forward a few years and it's like this ruined hellscape.
And you're like, I mean, like, like I literally, I met people that I went and lived with for
like a period of time.
Like I knew them from Twitter and ended up living with them when I needed a place to
stay.
Like I can't emphasize how wholesome and useful it was in my life.
And they were really, they were a bit older than me and they were like super helpful.
I had a really shit job and was going through a tough time and they were like mad supportive,
cool guys who are a bit older and were like playing an abandoned stuff.
It's like really inspirational.
And like that all happened from Twitter.
And I was like, this is life changing shit.
It was so wholesome.
And then this tour is awesome for a few years and I'm getting, and I'm just like, this is
the worst website.
I fucking hate this.
I fucking hate this is really bad for my mental health.
And I'm like, this is literally this shit.
This is a website.
Save my ass.
So, you know, I needed a place to live and I found a place to live here.
I fucking hate this.
I fucking hate this so much I want to build a web three version.
I think we should put this on the blockchain.
I hated so much.
Hey, look, if there was a more wholesome web three version, unfortunately made a more
degenerate version, which didn't solve the fundamental.
See, you should, you should put it in where if you post something and people fucking down
about you, you get slashed, that's what a shit, hey, social fucking slash.
It's like Prop 16, but on the blockchain, I guess we really need more prop 16.
It's like prop 16 or if we all came up in your asshole, then you just get your funds
get slashed and that's it.
You can't post anymore than you got to like, you know, whatever you got to get back to
your job.
You got to go get more howl tokens and then come back in.
You could shitpost more, but it just costs you so much to shitpost.
And then based on that, as you get slash, then the cost of post is not the gas fee.
It keeps going up.
It gets exponentially higher.
So you can shitpost, but instead of it costing me half a nickel to shitpost, it costs no
$8.50 to shitpost.
And he can make that decision if he wants to do that or not.
I think that's what it is anyway for the exchange rate, right?
It's like a public good.
Yeah, right there.
Holy fuck, it's getting bad.
You fucking solved it.
Wait, what's the exchange rate?
What is the exchange rates bad enough that you need like 50 bucks to get a beer in the
US?
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah.
That's what you're talking about, right?
The kangabuck exchange rate.
No, yeah.
We're not talking about that all.
Some shit for it out of there.
Same, same, same, same, same, same.
I met up with a former colleague in the week and just in trying to like, they're like,
oh, you're weeping in like last couple of months.
And just in order to explain like one anecdote, I was like, oh, this thing happened the other
week.
And you know when you like, then say a thing and then they have none of the context.
And they're like, you're going to need to back up and explain what half of those words
mean.
And then you do and they're like, I don't understand why any of that is important.
And then you explain it.
And they're like, so, but why is that a big deal?
And then you go, okay, so there was this drama.
And then they're like, but why does the drama matter?
And you're like, okay, so the people involved in the drama and they're like, why are these
people so angry?
And you're like, well, number one, I don't know.
But number two, there was this other drama.
And then they're just like, wow, this really just sounds awful.
And you're like, hmm, yep.
Yeah.
It's just lots of people shouting about at each other on Twitter now, I think about it.
And they're just like, do you, do you still write code?
And I was like, I mean, I think I mostly hide under a rock to avoid Twitter drama and I
very occasionally open Emacs and write some rust.
But, but it's hard to say actually.
And they were just like, wow, it just sounds like it's, it's a while west, but not in the
exciting way.
Right.
And I was like, what's the other way?
And they're like, the one way you just get shot for the reason.
You just die of dysentery, right?
That that way.
It's more of an Oregon trail.
You're trying to get rid of shit coins, but you died of dysentery.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's exactly what it is.
Who is it?
All right.
Are we doing the drill tweet?
Um, yes.
I, so I, uh, look at, I created an, I will fucking his name to like insane something.
Hold on.
I created a new marketing for this.
Yes.
I didn't even know you could do that.
I know.
I know I, I know every person they're off.
I know every person they're out and they out and they know, I never, never, I've ever
wanted to know, no, I do.
I think it's why it's horrible.
You're like, that wastest.
I love, that.
It's like, like maybe I was talking to a phone like, well, sure, but it's just obvious to
me.
hubby is, Hey, this is unreal.
It's this.
Dude.
That was poison.
Good.
It's insane.
Yeah.
It's like the perfect, a section is God and religion.
Perfect.
And the one I put my finger on is I've narrowed it down to the Church of Scientology or the
United States Marines, whichever one allows me to jerk off more in this flybreaker.
I would say you.
Honestly, if you are following along at home and you have the drill work driven and wild
since 2008, page 162 and 163, there's some bangers there if you want to have a look at
home.
Perfect.
I thought we got rid of this segment actually.
But also just while we're on the air as well, I did a classic thing last night.
We had a production migration of a load of infrastructure to do.
So like smart people, we scheduled it in for 11 o'clock at night UK time.
Should have waited till Friday too.
Fucking great idea.
It was a smashing idea because obviously things went wrong and obviously it then blew over
into early hours of the morning with page G going off.
It was magic, absolutely sensational.
That's why today was such a productive day.
But both you, both usurper and shortcy fully fucking saved our chestnuts.
Particularly particularly as well actually.
So you surfer plenty of sensible advice into the run up to fucking nuking all the shit
because we had to bring down all of our old infrastructure in this case to do what we,
I guess we should probably call the switcheroo according to phrase rule of thumb that if
you do anything super dodgy, anything super dodgy necessitates the switcheroo.
And as soon as you call something a switcheroo, you know you're doing something that you
shouldn't.
So anyway, we did the switcheroo.
It blew up as these things are want to do as it turned out for reasons that were obvious
in hindsight, they always are.
And we had a situation where basically needed to manually re-sink a blockchain like while
we were down in production.
And honestly was at the point of just like, just like, there's a way of like sinking this
thing in like maybe 2003 hours.
There's a way of sinking in 13 hours.
Obviously you don't want to do a 13 hour one.
And I was completely resigned to the three hours of downtime.
And Schultz was literally like, Hey, wait, don't you already have a copy of this data?
You could with some jiggery poetry, essentially, it's actually like you could just rename some
stuff, turn off some stuff, turn it back on again, cross your fingers, and it will probably
sort itself out.
And Schultz was 100% right.
Fully saved our chestnuts.
We were back online in 30 minutes, not three hours.
I'll be honest, if I couldn't, if it weren't for the diff thing and discord, which KJ nodes
showed to me, I wouldn't even message.
I would have just totally left it out.
Wait, what the thing?
Is there a discord?
There is.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So if you look at the chat, if you scroll up a bit, you can see that you can do a different
discord.
It's so cool.
Not on your phone.
Yeah.
So thank KJ nodes because I wanted to use that because I just learned about it.
That's pretty cool.
I didn't even know you could do it.
I thought that was a screenshot of a get diff.
That's pretty, that's no, no, isn't that awesome?
I mean, that was a really long explanation to really explain operator error.
Yeah.
I mean, let's, let's, let's place the blame where the blame should be.
That was, yeah.
So, so essentially what happened here, right, is that we were running a node on a testnet
using Docker and some volumes.
And on our previous version of the configuration there, we had changed it so that there was,
no matter what type of node you're running, conceptually think of it like RPC, full node,
archive node, validator, right?
The data volume would always be called the same thing, which would be called like main
net or something like that.
And we had changed that because reasons were just got a new configuration file and not
paid too much attention to the working of it, resulting in a Docker volume that wasn't
called what we thought, which meant there was no data available, which meant that when
the validator initialized, it was like, I guess I've got to re-sync this chain, big shenanigans.
And it would just like try to work out what was going on.
And sure as he was like, it's fucking wrong name lads.
It's wrong name.
Pretty sure you can just, just change that name thing.
And then it's probably going to maybe work, you know, or, or, you know, might not work,
but you know, Yolo and
I think it's a good chance it might work.
I also do recognize like no fancy rules, but it's very easy to recommend that you just
just restart it and hope for the best when it's not your node and it's not you down in
production.
Yeah, I was going to say like, you're giving me a lot of credit here when really all I
said was, have you tried like renaming it?
Hey, have you looked at the actual Docker volumes to make sure you're using everything?
But, but saying, essentially saying, have you tried turning off and turning on again?
We named it in between saved two and a half hours of downtime, which
I was probably more, those probably more like, I'm guessing was more like six.
Well, so the bit that you didn't see in the up between me typing, oh, fuck lads.
And then the short see being like, is a container.
Yeah.
Have you considered the church of Scientology?
I mean, have you considered renaming it?
Because that we had actually rechanged the additional states in config and then restart
resyncing and it was syncing a lot faster.
So it was it was syncing a lot faster than like whatever it was transaction outputs a
second.
Okay.
So it was on track for more like three hours and 13, which is is closer to the correct number
one would expect.
That's not bad.
I mean, honestly, you're think that that is a sinking of a blockchain that has been running
for what nine months, right?
From Genesis.
Jesus, that hasn't been that long.
Has it?
It's October.
Yeah.
It was like early October, right?
So it's been fucking nine months.
Yeah.
It's like one.
Yeah.
Am I right?
I think it's like 1,600,000.
No, no, no, no.
It was, no, we just we just passed 150 million or 160 160 million versions, which is based
on transactions.
Which is not quite.
Yeah.
Which is a transaction, I think is really what that is.
But yeah.
But but I mean, honestly, that thinks it seems pretty cool.
It's like 4,000, 4,000 trans or 4,000 blocks or 4,000 versions a second or something like
that.
It's it was thinking.
Yeah.
Like even in slow sync, it was thinking 400,000 every two minutes.
4,000.
Oh, oh, every two minutes.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
That's not bad.
That's slow.
When I was when it was slowly sinking, which means I think when it's slow sinking, it's
not applying the transaction outputs.
It's executing them.
I think it's grabbing the headers, right?
It's really what's doing is grabbing the it's just grabbing.
It's not grabbing.
Yeah.
The fast the fast sync distinction is the applying the transaction outputs rather than
executing.
Right.
I think I would kill for this and have most by the way, since every time I need to sink
that it's like you're moving at 1.1% or 1.1 times the actual block time.
So if you're back by 10 blocks, you got to wait like two minutes type of thing.
Well, yeah.
I was heartbreaking when they put out an announcement that it was suddenly fixed and I was like,
yes.
And it was not fixed.
And if anything is worse, which is so emblematic.
Right.
Yeah.
Yep.
Well, the good news is that it's on a little bit of a slow slide.
So, oh, it's at 9.3 cents.
Shit.
Yeah.
So, Edmonds did keep us alive last year.
That was the only thing keeping us sustainable for like three months.
Yeah.
I mean, that's how it works in this business, right?
Like you have bumps of like different chains that take that end up becoming like the.
But it is a treadmill, isn't it?
You have to as a as a validator, you have to basically constantly be chasing the new
fad.
Otherwise, eventually you're going to get a rug by time.
Time rugs all in the end.
So, I feel like though, like say, she'll see your situation, right?
And probably mine for a little bit as well with Edmonds is that you take some off the
table right there.
They keep you afloat.
Are you now not obligated to run that chain until it fucking goes into the dirt?
Yeah.
I would say to a certain extent, yeah.
And to Edmonds' defense, I'm more bullish on Edmonds still than I am on many Cosmos chains.
Like they've had issues.
Yeah, fine.
But I think that the team is still doing good things.
I think that they're still pushing forward.
I think they're still, they're a very clearly, in my opinion, positive impact on the wider
ecosystem.
Yeah.
I think Nolan and I were talking about this earlier this week.
We can bring it up.
But like we do, we will see more validators disappearing.
So based on the time and effort that goes into the chains or based on the amount of dollars
that they have, like we call it, like the nut, right?
How much they actually have to make to be able to cover salaries and other types of things,
right?
So either, you know, they'll shed those people or they'll shed hardware.
They'll do whatever they need to get down to a very, as low as they feel, excuse me,
they can go, that they can run a set of chains, right?
And then what I also think is that there is an endless supply of validators behind that.
I think an endless supply.
Because somebody will say, hey, I want to run this at a loss for six months until this chain
rebounces.
And I think there is literally hundreds or thousands of people or companies that will
run validators at a loss for six to 12 months waiting for a chain to pop back up, right?
So if I, you don't think?
I mean, continue, please, but I don't agree so much anymore.
And the reason why I think that that number, that number is getting lower, right?
I think I agree with that.
So as for example, axelar, like the buy-in amount right now is like $1,000, right?
Like an axelar is a, I mean, granted, it's a big chain to run.
You have to run other things as well.
There's a lot of stuff, right?
But it's a really important chain.
And I would consider it one of the name recognition chains where you join that chain and people
are like, oh, well, they're on this big chain, right?
Like that's important.
Do you know, I would say, used to be one of those?
I don't know if it's so much as anymore.
True, unfortunately.
And $1,000 isn't that much.
I don't know that.
I don't know.
But I still see like a long list of valid, even on new chains that come up, you still
see like a long list of teams you've never seen before, right?
So I think there is a pretty long runway of individuals or groups that are willing to
lose some money in the hope that they're getting in early on something that will hopefully
turn around, right?
What I don't believe is that the project teams have the same stamina.
So project teams need to pay employees or they will go somewhere else.
Project teams need to be able to pay and be able to grow.
And they need to be able to market.
And they need to be able to, like those are costs that even in a really bad market actually
grow because they're doing more marketing, they're doing more education, they're trying
to be able to do more from a community perspective.
And so what I would expect is that you'll see project teams start to deteriorate and
eventually fall.
Not to put it on servers, but servers was an example of that early on where you had,
I think it was like one or two people, right?
And they just fucking disappeared.
Like they just buried it all because they had no value to it.
And I do think that you will see over time that there are specific project teams that
will have to crumble.
And if that happens, then it turns into, okay, there's some value in this chain.
Is that who takes this forward?
Is there a path forward?
And then people try to make it happen and somebody maybe steps in or whatever the hell
happens.
But at some point, there's a reckoning, right?
So that's my concern on some of these that really work.
I think you're just gonna see how not decentralized in any way any of these proof of state chains
are through that process.
Yeah, sure.
Because you're gonna see that none of them survive the loss of, let's say, two thirds.
Let's say 66.67% of the core team is probably the magic number that need to stay before
the project no longer has any viability.
But yeah, I mean, and this is the thing with especially with the current generation of
proof of state chains, it's hard to, you know, like fucking full, full, this is now the brutality
hat.
Let's put the brutality hat on.
What is that?
Brutality hat on.
I have one of those.
It's hard to feel that sorry for the current generation of proof of state chains because
they are NGMI when the core team leaves, they have no succession planning and no ability
to which you would think would be a core technical necessity for any truly decentralized project.
So the interesting thing about Cosmos, I suppose, is that all the chains are a DAO or
a DAO in inverted commas at the heart of them, but it's a broken DAO.
It doesn't work.
And the interesting thing will be, okay, there's essentially two future models, I think, for
these chains.
There might be more because we're still early, but at the moment, it seems like a better,
more functional DAO is one option.
And another option is going completely trustless, going fully the other direction where you no
longer are taking finality as the most important part of that trio of distributed system records.
And then you have to go back to the requirements and instead go back to liveness like proof
of work.
And where there's another model like proof of work that can survive not only adversarial
actors outside of the network, but also essentially getting rugged by your own founders.
Can you launch a chain?
It will just continue.
That's an interesting problem.
It hasn't been solved yet.
And I completely agree with you that actually the number of validators, some of these chains
are going to become zombie chains just because of Hopium.
Yeah, I would think so.
Because the validator set is so small, like, yeah, when you think about it, like, if a
name recognition chain becomes completely unprofitable, like you're never going to make
any money on again, let's say that eventually the coin does converge on zero, you would
still get people joining as it is riding its final death spiral purely out of Hopium because
you've got like 150 validators.
You can find 150 suckers walking down the end of the road to the post office.
It just spends on the cost to run, right?
And tenement chains don't have a huge cost to run.
So if you can do that in some sort of sense, then I think you can, yeah, you can have zombie
chains run for a long time.
But that doesn't necessarily mean the users are there or this is there.
People have dollars or they have investment in that idea or they have a vision of what
that could be.
And therefore, it's very difficult to give that up, right?
Do you know what's interesting, though?
I was thinking this about, like, you know, when you say like cosmos chains are quite
easy to run.
I think they both are and they aren't.
Like there's some things about them that are very easy to run, like 13 hour downtime
window on most chains.
That's super easy.
Like you can literally turn off all your monitoring except for 10 o'clock in the morning, 10 o'clock
in the evening, right?
So in fact, actually one of the things we literally have on our company phones is we
have a round robin that does text you every morning at six.
So that when you start the working day, you have a text message form, a summary of what
all the servers, what all the networks that we run are doing, right?
And for cosmos, that's completely viable.
Like you don't have to check again for the rest of the working day until there's another
text at the end of the working day, because it's less than 30 hours.
So like no matter what happens, you can't, if you're up at that first text and you're
up at the second text, you can sleep, you can do whatever you need.
But then the flip side of that is that you can also double sign relatively easily through
operator error through.
So like last night was a prime example, the operation that we did where we did some prep
for it ahead of time.
We had actually already done the same operation before on a test net and had a pretty high
confidence that we could pull it off and it went completely to shit.
And actually, if that had been a cosmos chain, we would have been able to be a lot less decisive
in trying to solve it because there would have been a really high risk of double signing.
We were running two full rigs of infrastructure in order to try and minimize the downtime
when we did the switcheroo, which as it turned out, actually caused more problems than it
solved in the end.
But I guess it's that thing of like, it's sort of deceptively easy.
There's definitely a lot of deep gotchas, I think, like any, maybe like any infrastructure.
Maybe it is easy.
I guess maybe it is easy to branch things.
I don't know if it's easier, but at least it's not, I mean, it's not Solana, right?
You're not spending $3,000 or $4,000 on my feed, right?
That's a fat boy.
Like Solana is really hard.
And even if you're running bare metal, it's really demanding.
It's like, yeah, or any other like similar to that where you're having a pretty high
outlay and cost.
And so you could do it pretty cheap.
I don't think you can do it well, but you can do it, right?
So and again, you have a pretty wide window of incompetence.
And so therefore, you can have 150 validators with different levels of incompetence who
can keep a chain moving.
Like there's no issue with that, right?
And I think my point is this, like you said before, like just the...
It depends on what the community involvement is on a specific chain.
It depends on how much motivation there is to be able to keep something going.
But I do think that the bigger concern here, at least in terms of bear market bullshit,
it's not the validators.
It's the project teams.
It is like, can you keep a team together that it's actually going to do something that's
going to build and grow?
Or is it always going to be whatever's coming next?
And there's always a lot of what's coming next, right?
There's a lot of repeat of ideas.
There's a lot of EVM compatible chains.
There's a lot of Cosmos and permission lists.
There's a lot...
All these same things exist.
So it's just like a wave of whatever the hell is coming next.
And if you're on the backside of that wave, you're kind of fucked, right?
Because you have projects that are there that can move or you have projects that are not
going to go anywhere or people put money in and that's a real issue.
That's kind of the same for every...
Oh, yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
It's not...
I don't think that's Cosmos specific for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
It does make you wonder if this bear market does go on for another year, how many of the
alt ecosystems will actually...
I don't know about you guys, but I found the other day I had some Tezos knocking around
from...
God, maybe it was the 2017 run.
I don't even know.
It was some time ago and I was like, did that even recover in the last...
Okay, somebody in the comments will know.
Did that even recover in the last bull run?
I think so, maybe.
I can't remember.
No clue.
Wasn't paying too much attention.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
It'd be interesting to know if the Gen 1 alt coins did recover in the last bull run and
I guess maybe that will give us an indication on where the chains and projects that survive.
Because the interesting thing about your thesis, you said, or is that obviously that some core
teams will collapse and not survive and I think you're right.
The question will be whether projects that are essentially by that point zombie projects
still get an uptick in the next bull, sorry.
Because I don't think the average person...
I don't know, do people really do that much due diligence even on project teams?
It feels like in Cosmos, certainly during the season in App Chain Winter, didn't do
any due diligence, getting airdrops and then aping in further or whatever.
It didn't feel like there was a lot of...
I think there's momentum investing.
Momentum investing means shit's going up and I want to catch that so I'm going to put
money into something hoping it comes up.
That's momentum investing.
I like that there's actually a proper word for moving the investment.
That's what it is.
It's momentum investing.
I'm not thinking about it.
I'm not looking at what the price is now and what the potential is.
Shit is going up.
It's moving fast.
I can buy something now I can sell tomorrow.
I feel like there's less risk there.
It's momentum investing.
Or that it's an airdrop situation where I'm strategically thinking about what's coming
next and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I think there is a...
In that momentum, you feel a lot in this Cosmos, in the crypto space, I think you have a lot
of momentum investors, meaning if somebody's going up, then they write it out and they try
to figure out where to sell.
The issue which works, but the issue with that is that it's usually early in a chain's
life when that's happening.
To get something now, it has to be a pretty significant event or some thing that happens
that really gets people involved back into a specific chain.
We're seeing now with Bitcoin and ETH and some of the other things that are going on
because of the conversations related to that.
I wonder if there'd be some dead man switch for upcoming Cosmos chains.
I'd say there isn't a commit to their GitHub or a new smart contract in three months.
Should a prop just pop up being like, let's close it down, boys.
I feel like something that should exist.
Everything might be seized off.
Why would that be a piece of?
It's a piece of everybody we're done here.
Yeah, exactly.
They put all the validators into a big wooden crate.
An old guy in a long thing and a flat cat bangs the nails in.
And then it's just the end scene from Raiders of the Lost Star.
You push down a long aisle somewhere.
Exactly.
And I don't just mean the servers.
I mean the validators.
I mean, they just like a guy comes to a Schultz's bunker, 200 floors below sea level, bag over
the head, extraordinary rendition.
You're going to the government facility.
Everybody's in the crate.
You're headed to the Titanic, son.
Here you go in a carbon fiber tube.
Yeah, you're in this ten foot by eight foot box with 100 other validators.
Jacob G. Yes, but who's looking at Juno right now?
Who's looking at it?
Top men know who top men.
Sorry.
That's how she that's how she facts.
That's a great that's a really what the Juno is.
I'm a big raider.
But yeah, it's pushing down.
That is actually Rama.
Who's looking at it?
And in race, right?
Yeah, exactly.
I did real life.
I did Juno.
Yeah.
Standing over the over the over the wood box going, ah, fuck this.
Yeah, maybe just maybe just let's just let the sleepy dogs lie on this one.
One of them is holding the nail and the other one's hammering it in.
I think that you know what the only thing that could be I don't know, is it too soon
to make jokes about the submarine?
Yeah, I mean, I did.
So I mean, yeah, I mean, something, something.
Something sponsored by something something old coins.
Something like you can feel you can assemble your own joke around that.
So yeah, is it just me?
Was it like hard to feel that sorry for a bunch of billionaires going down in the submarine?
I felt sorry for the pilot, I guess.
Yeah, just I felt sorry for the submarine.
I was like, man, that thing was probably kind of well engineered.
Like I didn't deserve that.
I could have been like like that.
Exactly.
The submarine perhaps.
I did watch a couple of like videos post that whole saga and there was one of with there
was one with the guy talking about like constructing it and there was like a few short clips of
like him talking about it.
And he's like, yeah.
Yeah, we've broken a few rules to build this.
And yeah, he also go down with the ship as well.
Yeah, he went down with it.
The designer was on it.
Yeah.
But so people usually make this Titanium, but we didn't have it on the Titanic as well.
Didn't the designer literally go on?
I'm going to Google this now.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure about that actually.
That's a good question.
Well, so like this piece I bought this at Walmart.
He did.
Yeah.
The sum itself though, it had gone down several times before.
So like fatigue.
It did.
Yes, it did.
Yeah.
And that's the problem with carbon fiber.
Like for people that ride bikes know that carbon fiber, like it gets destroyed catastrophically.
Like it doesn't just break.
It goes brittle.
Plus, yeah, exactly.
Plus it had like a glue joint and shit.
Oh, that's again, that's super common for carbon fiber and the bonds can be really, really
strong.
But the point is that carbon fiber flexes like hundreds of thousands of times, like loads
of times and it's fatigue life.
And then it goes bam and catastrophically fails.
Yeah.
And this is the reason that Russian nuclear submarine hulls are made out of titanium,
not carbon fiber.
Sounds pretty sure.
And why also the bike behind me is made out of titanium coincidentally sold off from Russian
stocks at the end of the Cold War and not carbon fiber because I don't fucking trust
things that might catastrophically fail when I'm doing 70 kilometers an hour downhill.
That's not a...
I thought CF was like the bike material now.
It is.
Oh, it is.
And your lifespan is what they say.
Oh, really?
After five years, you're just supposed to get rid of your frame.
Oh, shit.
Yeah.
And five years is a lot when you've just dumped fucking like what, 10 grand into a frame.
Yeah, probably.
Yeah.
Well, you can get a carbon fiber frame.
You can get a veggie $2,000 or so.
But yeah, the principle holds.
I mean, the frame behind me is 24 years old and literally made out of Russian aerospace
titanium.
And I imagine it will probably outlast me.
So I had a friend who actually designed his own frame and had it made in China out of titanium.
And yeah, yeah, you can do that.
Dulcy is currently planning on doing this, I believe.
I'm curbing my own enthusiasm, but yeah, I'm trying not to.
I even bought tires for it.
I just bought some, some Chris King carbon rims.
You're really curbing it.
I can see.
I know exactly.
I bought tires for a bike that I haven't even sent to China to be made.
Chris King, that's classy shit.
Poorland local.
So I was like, I should probably support that.
Is it really?
Yes, it is.
Yeah.
I have a Chris King headset.
It's very good.
Oh, nice.
It stands up to bad weather.
Well, which makes sense now I know Pacific Northwest.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Yeah.
Fucking wet as hell.
I haven't even opened the box yet.
It's in my garage and I'm just, every time I walk through, I'm like, I shouldn't go buy
more components.
And then I'm like, I should start checking for more components.
It's part of the process.
You just collect them for a long period of time and then eventually you suddenly have
all the components and you're just like, well, this is happening.
So what my mates did was he bought a donor bike.
He bought a good bike that he liked with all the shit on it, all the fruit.
And then he just got the frame made by his own design.
He even had like even cut out like his own logo that he designed and had it welded to
the front as well.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
It went pretty baller on it.
But yeah, so he just bought this like good donor bike second hand, took all the fucking
fruit off it and put it onto the, the, the new one that he designed and fucking loves
it.
It looks pretty sweet too.
It's light as fuck.
Yeah.
Tatan is pretty cool.
Yeah.
He's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Of the eight million YouTube videos on this fucking disaster.
You should, the ones I would watch, James Cameron, you guys watch any of those, him
actually talking about it because he, he, because he's a big kind of deep huge, right?
Like he, he built like a carbon steel sphere that went down to, I think he's gone like
two or three times X this distance, right?
He went down to what?
Yeah.
He went down to like, he's been down to, he's been down to the Mariana.
The Mariana trench, right?
Which I think is like really ocean, which is why he wrote this.
So he's been to the Titanic because before Titanic, when they did the film, wait.
Yeah.
No, he, because I think he built, he built one of those for that expedition after they
found it or whatever.
Yeah.
He's been to the Titanic and then he's also been to the, the Mariana trench and that's
where the abyss comes from.
You know, the film, the abyss.
A pretty good movie till the ending.
Yeah.
Well, there's two endings on there.
There are.
What?
There's a second ending.
There is.
There's an alternative ending that they made.
No, they're okay.
Yeah.
So, but okay.
All right.
So, okay.
So before, before we go on, it's just very important that I fact check the Titanic thing.
The designer of the Titanic did go down with the Titanic.
So that's another way.
No shit.
I had to remember that correctly.
So it is actually a way in which the, the, the, the submarine going to the Titanic.
It has a weird circular version of the, a little bit, which has the hubris of the designer
resulting in the designer's own untimely death, which is, is kind of yeah.
History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes, right?
So that's funny.
But the other thing as well as one of the guys on, it was just described as like this,
like an explorer or an adventurer.
And he's basically like a nobody until like in 2017, he shows up in the, I think the UAE
very wealthy.
Yeah.
And there's a Wikipedia page and it literally has this citation saying like, some expansion
is needed to understand the source of his wealth.
And I'm like, I like you add the HMRC are both asking the same question.
Both the Wikipedia mods and the tax authority are both 100% aligned on that one.
They all have a lot of interest in where that wealth came from.
That's funny.
So my entrance is 36,000 feet.
It's a deep way.
And the, I think Titanic says a 12,000 or 12,500 feet or something like that.
And I think they found that the remains of this vehicle at 13,000 maybe.
So it's about three X depth.
I'm saying, are you saying that he went down there or he built a vest?
No, no, he built a vessel.
Yeah.
The vessel you could actually, there's a good YouTube video on this too.
So he built like a, I don't know what the, what the material is, but he basically built
a sphere and that sphere is contained within a larger vehicle.
And they went down to the bottom of the area and trench with that.
So like, it's a pretty, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a difference between dollar.
This is a, this is a dollars conversation.
So Cameron's showing up with like $1,000 bills falling out of his pockets.
Right.
And we want to build something to go down to this.
And so they, they build like a real structure on it.
This other one that this thing that just, that just imploded was not at that same budget.
Right.
Like they were trying to do it in a way because like they were like, hey, I'm gonna go get
a job.
Like they were like, Hey, we want to hire kids out of college and all this type of stuff.
And we don't hire these, we don't want to hire, you know, naval experts and we don't
want to hire submarine experts.
And that's, that's a nice thing to say.
We want to get out of these old ways of thinking about it.
That's true.
That's one way of saying it.
The other way of saying is I can't afford those people because, you know, because there's
dollars there.
So yeah, but yeah, 36,000.
And so like, you know, put this perspective like Marion Trench is like 10,000 meters deep.
Right.
Yes.
So the depth of most nuclear submarines is like a thousand meters.
No, it's way less than that.
Right.
I thought, I thought the deepest subject goes to like 400 meters or something like that.
That's what I was thinking too about a thousand meters.
That's like the operating depth.
Oh yeah.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
It's like substantially deeper.
In fact, it might be deeper than a thousand meters because it's one of those things that
people haven't really tested.
But obviously the Americans lost a couple of submarines that way.
Yeah.
All the Russian sublosses were in shallow water like Kersk and stuff like that.
They're in relatively shallow water.
So they just bottomed out like 400 meters or whatever on the seabed.
But I think was it Thresher and Skipjack with the two American ones that were lost and they
both imploded catastrophically.
And then there was the Gomar Explorer one, which was, do you remember that was that one
that the Russians lost and it landed on the seabed during the Cold War?
And then the American, the CIA got like an external gas exploration ship and tried to
pick it up off the seabed and they actually managed to get about half of it.
No, I didn't see that.
I do a little story of them.
It's super illegal as well because that's a maritime grave.
So it's kind of not, the interesting thing is at the moment there's a whole bunch of
stuff about international salvage because there's a bunch of World War II ships that
are obviously huge battleships, loads and loads of steel, useful for salvage, right?
And they're being hoovered up off the seabed primarily by kind of dodgy actors from countries
that aren't necessarily that interested in international maritime salvage law they're
doing on the sly.
And then like, you know, the Americans and the British and like mainly the kind of larger
colonial style nations that were involved in World War II, were all a bit like, ooh,
they're war graves.
And to be fair, they are war graves and they should be undisturbed.
I'm not disputing that.
It is also just like, you know, you guys have disturbed a few war graves in your time as
well when it suited you to.
So I guess it's commercial companies doing it this time.
So that's kind of fucking lame.
I don't know.
That makes it even more better because capitalism is really the only way to go and full fledged
capitalists.
We need to get rid of all of these regulations.
We just, we just the type of 4th of July baby flakes about these war graves are just
right, yeah, fuck it, it's still taking the salvage, still tickets.
If they don't sell it's bad.
If they do sell it's good.
What about we tokenize the dis-urgent?
We don't even need it.
We could just use both of Iota and build like this came from this geolocation beauty.
Or two things.
If nobody's seen Das Boot, fucking awesome movie, you guys should watch that movie.
You guys are doing that fucking great movie.
Also about submarines that are beyond their crush.
Is it better than the hunt for red October?
Way better than hunt for red October.
Dude, fucking Sean Connery doing that goddamn Russian accent.
Are you kidding me?
Ah, Tashkivana.
That's insane.
I used to fish off that island right there.
I would have liked to have seen Montana.
Sam Neal, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, we managed to convince for a very long time my wife back when we were dating that
Das Boot.
We just kept referring to it as a comedy, like a German comedy.
One day she put two and two together and was like, wait, wait, wait.
That's the film, that's the harrowing film about the young German submariners.
Fuck, I love that movie.
It's super controversial because it humanized the enemy.
You guys are treating it like it's some kind of like a...