1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,840
Hey there everybody. Listen, David and I have found it for the first time in a year, which

2
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,720
is actually quite remarkable if you think about it given our busy schedules, but we

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:15,440
found it impossible to connect this week. And so because of that, we made the decision

4
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:22,280
to go ahead and play a very popular interview that we did several months ago. This is with

5
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:28,120
my sweet wife, Deborah Durfee, an amazing interview. I'm sure we are going to go ahead

6
00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,760
and do a bit of an encore presentation of that, if you will. We'll be back next week.

7
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:41,200
Appreciate all of your participation. Most of all, appreciate your understanding. So here it is.

8
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,480
Well, hello everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast, we discuss

9
00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:00,320
hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My name is Scott Durfey. I want

10
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:07,120
to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David DurfeyThank you, Scott. So good

11
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:14,560
to be here this morning. We've got a great podcast in store, I think, today. A real treat. I'll get

12
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,640
to that in just a minute. Before we do, I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've

13
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:24,880
received a lot of great questions and some experiences. Wow, we've received a couple of wonderful

14
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,880
experiences that have been shared with us, experiences of hope, experiences of crying out,

15
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:38,320
experiences of tying into the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His Atonement in

16
00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:43,600
ways that have made monumental changes and even some small important changes in life. So we're

17
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:49,920
grateful for those. We'd encourage you to continue sending us your emails. We appreciate them very

18
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,640
much. We appreciate your suggestions. We appreciate your questions. We try to weave them into the

19
00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:00,240
conversation. And again, we will probably be taking some individual podcasts to deal with some of

20
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,560
those questions at a future date. But in the meantime, if we could just ask you to keep sending

21
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:13,120
those to us, we appreciate it. You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. He redeems us at

22
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:20,960
gmail.com. So we appreciate that very much. We've had some great conversations, Dave, over the last

23
00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:27,680
several weeks about repentance, what it's not, what it is. We talked a little bit about confession.

24
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:34,240
Confession, we're going to continue in that vein on what repentance is in upcoming podcasts as well.

25
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:42,320
But today, we're going to take just a little diversion from that vein in its entirety. We

26
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,880
definitely, these things that we're going to be doing today fall in that vein and in fact,

27
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:53,680
personify the things that we're going to be talking about in a great way. I want to introduce

28
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,320
somebody who's super important to me. She's very important to David as well. But

29
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,200
I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to have to not look at you, Dave.

30
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:12,240
I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me. Dave's learned

31
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,600
to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually of our family.

32
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:24,000
My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today. Wonderful story. Say hi, Deb.

33
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:30,160
Hello, everyone. It's so good to have you here. So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little introduction

34
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,720
about Deb, kind of give a little background on her and then we'll get right into some questions and

35
00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,240
let Deb talk about her story and the importance of it and how it relates to being redeemed through

36
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:46,560
the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways. So Deb and I actually met in 1998

37
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:55,200
in Lehi, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in and kind of helped and was super instrumental

38
00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:03,120
in helping develop and bring about the addiction recovery program from the church here

39
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:11,360
in Utah County. And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that are obvious to those who

40
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,480
have been listening for a while. For those who aren't, I'm recovering alcoholic with 23 years and

41
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:25,040
11 months and two weeks of sobriety. I have to have a party next month. Yeah, October 26. That's

42
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:32,080
right. 24 years. 24 years. But Deb and I met just prior to, well, just after two months after my

43
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:38,320
getting sober roughly and a few years later, we ended up married. Deb and I have had an opportunity to

44
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,240
share both of our stories in sacrament meetings and firesides, countless firesides and

45
00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:51,440
fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's camps, healer men's camps and those kinds of things.

46
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:57,200
And it's been a wonderful experience for both of us as we've kind of hand in hand walked the journey

47
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:04,080
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our own lives separately and together as we've worked hard to do

48
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:10,720
a little Brady Bunch thing. We have seven kids between us. We love them all. We don't differentiate

49
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:16,080
in who's who's or any of those things. They're all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren.

50
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:22,720
We love them, I think just as much as we love our kids and maybe some days even a little bit more.

51
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:31,120
So one other thing, you know, this story that I think Deb's going to be sharing, at least parts

52
00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:36,800
of it today, is a story that she has personally shared in high schools and junior highs and

53
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:44,720
recovery centers, especially those specifically for women all over the state of Utah and for

54
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:52,000
over 20 years now and in fact, well over 20 years now. And this story that we're going to be talking

55
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:58,720
about, especially as it relates to how it ties into the redemption being redeemed through his blood,

56
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,080
the blood, of course, of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, his power through the Atonement.

57
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,360
As those things, as we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to be great

58
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,080
relevance in all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of those

59
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:20,480
that may be finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations. So let's just start

60
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:27,040
off Deb. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about maybe kind of

61
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:33,360
lead us into where we, where you want to go with what we talk about here and we'll just go from there.

62
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:41,600
So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories. So when you invited me

63
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:49,200
to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was actually going to share. But I

64
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:58,000
feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular story, which was a huge part of

65
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:06,880
my life in giving me who I am and forming me the way that it was just part of my journey of how I

66
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:14,000
learned more about me and more about the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And something Deb that can bless

67
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,920
the lives of so many others. I'm sure you're thinking about that. Yeah, I always tell people,

68
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:26,560
I'm a good example of what not to be. So, um, or how to become, there you go. There's hope.

69
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,880
Anyway, as I was reflecting on, on what story I would share, I thought about one of the first

70
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:42,000
really big impactful experiences that happened in my life when I was between my junior and

71
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:48,880
senior year in high school. And I was dating a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of

72
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:55,600
youth pamphlet back in the olden days. And we just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down

73
00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:03,360
with a guy, don't stay out past midnight. And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay

74
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:11,680
virtuous and to be worthy, those were the vague rules that I heard. I'm sure there probably were

75
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,960
many others that were getting more explicit, more explanation than I was, but those are the ones that

76
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:27,600
I basically remember. And so when I was in the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an

77
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:36,080
obedient youth and I had an experience where I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with

78
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:42,400
a group of people and I did the unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie.

79
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,760
So you broke two rules. I broke both rules all in the same night.

80
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:54,800
Stayed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched a movie with, with a guy. Long story

81
00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:02,400
short, I found myself being violated. And it wasn't that night. It was the, you know, the very next

82
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:11,920
day during broad daylight. I was, I was raped and it was very traumatic to me. It was scary.

83
00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:21,600
I was horrified. I was devastated. I fought with every strength in my body to stop what was going on

84
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:38,080
and was not successful. And I felt completely broken and so devastated. When I left, I went,

85
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,560
I was returning a video, if you guys remember back in the day of Blockbuster when you're

86
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:49,680
returning videos. And I remember going home, my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl

87
00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:58,080
up in a ball and literally just go to sleep and not wake up. I was so broken and so devastated

88
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,800
for what had happened to me. But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two

89
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,760
rules that I was always told not to break. I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I

90
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:17,040
didn't. And so that now I understood why you don't do those things. So feeling more than a victim,

91
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:24,720
you felt that you had brought it on yourself and that you deserved it. I did. I broke those rules.

92
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:31,760
And so I felt like I deserved that. I knew better than that because I had been told that over and

93
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:38,160
over and over and I broke those two rules that were always told to me. Can I ask a question

94
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,920
real quick? Yeah. And I don't want you to lose your train of thought. I want you we're going to say,

95
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,400
but can you kind of give us an overview of what your relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus

96
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:54,320
was like at that point? So I was raised just like Nephi with Goodly Parents and we went to church

97
00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:03,920
every week and I loved primary. I loved all of the weekly church activities we participated.

98
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:10,080
We had family night every Monday night. We had family prayer every morning. I mean, I was raised

99
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:19,040
I was raised in a very strong, great home. However, I did have my own interpretation of what

100
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:27,440
God was. Jesus was his helper in my in my young mind. He was there to help Heavenly Father.

101
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,400
And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that there was a loving

102
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:41,840
Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the wrong choices.

103
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:47,520
And I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching all the

104
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:53,040
good and the bad. And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of those black

105
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:59,280
marks that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the waters of

106
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,280
baptism. They're all all those black marks are going to go away. And I remember thinking,

107
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:09,680
I can't erase her. Yeah, it was the eraser. And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong

108
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:15,360
ever again. Don't don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad deed,

109
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:24,480
whatever. I just I just remember my slate is clean. And and of course, I knew shortly after I turned

110
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:31,600
eight and into eight years and one day after being baptized, that there were some black marks

111
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:41,360
already going up there. And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God as I understood

112
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:47,920
him is kind of like the cop. And I remember even sometimes being outside in the summer rain

113
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,560
with the lightning and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody right

114
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:58,720
now, because I can hear some thunder. But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to me,

115
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,600
I just thought. And then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers. And I remember them

116
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,760
saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying, because he's, you know, I'm like, Oh,

117
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,000
maybe he's crying because he's upset with all black marks they have. I mean, it's funny what we

118
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:20,240
kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means what. How do you think that

119
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,760
that view that you had of Heavenly Father at that point, how do you think that affected your

120
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:32,240
reaction to all these things that had just happened to you? Oh, I knew he was so mad at me. I knew he

121
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:38,240
was absolutely disappointed. I knew that I had broke every rule that I had ever been told. And

122
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:44,720
I just knew he was in pure utter disappointment with me. So what I hear you describing, Deb,

123
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:52,240
is you say the commandments were clearly taught in your home. Yes. But it wasn't so much. It was a

124
00:13:52,240 --> 00:14:03,440
gospel of commandments, dues and don'ts. And not so much a gospel of relationships. Sounds like

125
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,520
really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what the Atonement of Jesus Christ really was

126
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:18,480
about. What redemption was, what salvation was, how can we draw closer to them? What's their character

127
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:25,840
attributes and perfections, which is the requirements to really exercise faith in him.

128
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:33,600
Those things were kind of missing in your gospel youth upbringing. Absolutely. Everything was

129
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:40,240
black and white. It was all about the dues and the don'ts. And it wasn't because it probably wasn't

130
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:47,600
taught, but I sure didn't hear it or feel it. Yeah. Whether it was me not listening, whether it was

131
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,800
just the misunderstanding. And I was telling my own story in my own head of what this all

132
00:14:52,800 --> 00:15:00,560
looked like. And the things that were spoken to me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and

133
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:08,320
and understood it the best way I knew how far as understanding God and his Son, Jesus Christ.

134
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:15,680
And really, I did not, I can tell you right now in the stage of my life, I truly did not understand

135
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:21,520
the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I had no clue Christ. There's no way I understood that at that time.

136
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,920
Yeah. Okay. So you're, you're raped. How old were you? It was the summer I turned 17.

137
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,720
Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments. How did that, how did that go?

138
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,720
Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone. I could not tell a single solitary soul. I had brought

139
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:47,280
this onto myself because of choices I had made. And so there was, it was something that no one

140
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:55,760
was going to know, even though deep down inside it ate at me. And I had this secret that was just

141
00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:04,800
utterly painful. And I, I kept telling myself over and over, you're ruined. You're damaged.

142
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:11,120
You're, you're not virtuous anymore. You're not clean. You're not pure. You're not worthy.

143
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,520
So all of these stories. And then as I would go to church and, and go into the young women,

144
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,800
you know, organization and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay virtuous and clean. And,

145
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:30,080
and I just knew all is lost. I really knew all was lost. There was no hope for me because it was,

146
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:38,160
it was already broken. How long after you were, did the, did the, your pregnancy, was that the

147
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:48,800
results? So, um, I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I, I couldn't resolve it

148
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:55,280
within my own head, within my own heart. I couldn't resolve it. And so, you know, of course I would

149
00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,480
get on my knees and say, you know, I'm only father, this is really uncomfortable for me. And I don't

150
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,360
like it. Can you please remove it? And of course it didn't, because I didn't really understand

151
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:13,520
exactly how to resolve it. And so I think within, oh, I would say within a few months,

152
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:21,840
I kind of threw my hands in the air and gave up in the fact that, um, I had a friend that

153
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:28,080
introduced me to alcohol. And when I realized that alcohol made me feel different and I didn't

154
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:34,000
feel guilt and shame and I didn't feel that story of not good enough. Um, that helped numb out

155
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:41,680
that story I was telling myself and also the pain that went with that guilt and shame

156
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:50,480
that was so alive in me. And so then when I started drinking, then I'm, you know, reconnecting and,

157
00:17:50,480 --> 00:18:00,480
and having, getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed, I mean, it kind of spiraled down

158
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:10,880
until then I, then I find myself pregnant. So it wasn't a one time thing. It was a choice.

159
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:16,720
After that, it was a choice of, yeah, I, I like this. I'm going to go do it this way.

160
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,280
And you had that point not talked to anybody about this?

161
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,480
Oh no, never. No, you're hiding all of that, the drinking and everything and your parents and

162
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,840
you hadn't talked to the Bishop or, oh no, no, I didn't talk to anybody about it.

163
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,920
The only one that knew was my friend and, and at the time my boyfriend.

164
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:42,560
Okay. So I'm, so what, so what, so what happened after that? Uh, you, uh, say you got pregnant.

165
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,280
Once that happened, I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that?

166
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:53,760
Oh, I, I just remember I had to go over to the hospital to get a blood test. I don't remember

167
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,920
if they even had home tests at that time, but I just remember going over to the hospital and

168
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:04,000
getting a blood test. And then I had to get on my landline and call after four o'clock to find out

169
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,680
the results. And I remember when I called the hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other

170
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:18,400
end said, results are positive. Like in such a happy way. And I like in pure devastation, hung up

171
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:25,280
that phone and almost went back in the fetal position. And I remember calling my friend and

172
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:32,560
I said, I have no idea what to do. Um, I, I just got a positive test on, on my pregnancy.

173
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:39,040
And I, I got to tell my mom, I got to tell my dad, this is something you don't hide.

174
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:46,240
This is something that you can't keep a secret. Now it's, now it's going to be exposed. And so

175
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:53,600
I took some time and, and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him. I sat them both down and

176
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:59,840
told them. And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through this.

177
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:06,960
And I remember, you know, just feeling, okay, I know I devastated them. I know they were just like

178
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,400
jaw dropped and like, what are we going to do? I remember the visualization. I remember feeling

179
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:19,520
like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder. I just remember thinking, how am I ever going to get

180
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:25,440
out of this? How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again? How am I going to find

181
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:34,560
like any kind of joy or happiness? This is utter devastation and despair. And I remember

182
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,320
looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy. I just want to fill your joy and happiness again.

183
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:48,720
And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and helpless

184
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:58,720
and broken with, with no tools to get out of this, this whole damaged goods. Oh, so damaged,

185
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:04,800
so damaged goods. Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at

186
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:12,080
this point for you? I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders? Did you? So of course, I know

187
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:17,040
that I know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when, when these kinds of things happen. And at

188
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,480
this time, I'm a senior in high school and I'm attending seminary. I'm in my fourth year of

189
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:28,480
seminary. I was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time. I'm very active in church

190
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:34,960
still. And your dad had been a bishop. Yeah. When I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something.

191
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:41,920
But now I'm, I'm 17. Of course, I make an appointment with the bishop. And at that point

192
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:48,240
in my life, and I'm learning this as I'm older now, listening to the, to what repentance is and

193
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:55,120
what repentance isn't. Well, as, as a matter of fact, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness

194
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,880
institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students. And you're very impactful there. So yeah. Yeah.

195
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,520
Yeah. Yeah. It's a different perspective today. Right. Right. And I had read the Miracle of

196
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:16,080
forgiveness and now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has definitely, yes, has definitely

197
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:23,680
changed my interpretation and understanding more fully. Thank goodness. And more holy. So you went

198
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,640
to the bishop. So I made an appointment, go into the bishop and I basically say, so I've been involved

199
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:36,240
in some things that I'm not really happy about and I'm pregnant. And at this time, I'm sure I, I can

200
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,480
clearly tell you my bishop was absolute shocked because his, the look on his face and then he

201
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:49,920
dropped his head into his, both of his hands and just kept shaking his head. No. And just in absolute

202
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:57,520
utter like, Oh my gosh. And he just kept saying, Oh, Deb, Oh, oh my gosh. I can't believe this. I

203
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,760
can't believe this. And he kept shaking his head. No. And I just sat there watching him with like

204
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:07,280
eyes of like, Oh, can I just run out of this room right now? Can I just like exit? Like,

205
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,680
because I don't want to be here and watch this. Cause I already feel like that. I already felt

206
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,520
like he was feeling and I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head and no, I can't

207
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:25,280
believe this either. I don't, it's not the ideal. This was not my goal. And so long story short,

208
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:31,840
I left and I remember my parents asking me, so how did it go with the bishop? No, let me back up

209
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:38,400
for just a second because I think it's important to know at that time in my life, I really, it was

210
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:44,800
really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is the mouthpiece for the savior. This

211
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:51,840
is like, you're going to confess and you're going to go tell a priesthood authority what you have

212
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:59,280
done. And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, okay, this is how the savior feels about me. This is

213
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:07,520
how he, he's, he's disgusted. He is devastated. He is like shocked. He just cannot believe that I have,

214
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:15,280
I have got myself in this situation. And so then again, the story enhances. And then I believe that

215
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:22,800
this is exactly how the savior feels about me and where we're going. You know, it's like,

216
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:28,800
yep, I've disappointed him. Yep, I am ruined. Yep, I made that really big bad choice and here I am.

217
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,880
And so anyway, when I get home and I'm, my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the bishop? And

218
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,320
I said, honestly, I feel worse. I don't feel forgiven because that was my checklist. I was,

219
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,920
if I went in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better. That was, that was the rule of

220
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:52,320
the repentance process in my little brain. And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and,

221
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:58,560
and confessed to him and I came home feeling worse, I was like, okay, that was a big fat fail.

222
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:04,880
That did not work. You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, okay, now we,

223
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:12,080
we're going to go find a support group. And at that time, LDS social services had a support

224
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:18,640
group for single girls, women that were pregnant out of wedlock, and they would have a counseling

225
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,520
group and they would go at four o'clock on Tuesdays or something. And we would all sit around at a

226
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:29,760
table and talk about what we were going to do. Some, and some of these girls were further along,

227
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,360
some of these girls had already had babies, some of them placed them for adoption, some of them

228
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:40,640
kept them. They just basically shared their story of this is why I chose this, this is why I chose

229
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:47,600
that. And as an observer and as a terrified little girl, in this situation, I got to see

230
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,920
things that were happening in their lives. So, and how they handled the similar situation.

231
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,840
So I started going to that support group. I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant.

232
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:09,840
It was a big fat secret. And I just wore big hoodies. Nobody knew I didn't say anything to

233
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,520
anybody. There were speculations, of course, rumors get out and I grew up in a really small town.

234
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:22,640
And when I graduated from high school, I immediately moved up to West Jordan

235
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:29,120
with my brother and sister-in-law. They graciously opened a room to me and welcomed me.

236
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,320
You did that on your own or were you encouraged to do that?

237
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:40,160
I was encouraged to get out of town until I decided what I was going to do with this pregnancy.

238
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:47,440
So somewhat, did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned?

239
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,880
For sure. Yeah, I just had to get out of the small town because we didn't want to ruin

240
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:01,280
reputations and ruin what it was supposed to look like.

241
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:10,320
So you were sent away. Yeah, I did get a job up in Salt Lake. I do need to back up a little bit

242
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:17,920
because after I had talked to the bishop, within a week or two, I was at church and I still attended

243
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:26,560
church. I didn't stop going to church. He called me in his office and he very humbly said,

244
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:32,080
Deb, I owe you an apology. I just want you to know how sorry I am for the way I handled that

245
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,560
situation. And I want you to know that I'm human and I make mistakes and that was a really big

246
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:45,360
mistake and I hope you can forgive me. That was a tender, tender, pivotal time in my life to be able

247
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:52,320
to feel his sincere repentance and sorrow for the way that he handled that situation.

248
00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:01,680
Long story short, as I was working through that, I was able to graduate four years of

249
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:07,760
seminary. I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking, but was able to

250
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,960
graduate four years of seminary and then graduate from high school and then I moved up to Salt Lake.

251
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:19,920
The bishop up there and the whole ward was great. I'm 17 years old and now it's quite obvious that

252
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,760
I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling and I was so excited to have a calling and they asked me to

253
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:34,240
be the ward chorister. And the first week that I led this singing was the 4th of July, so I made

254
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,400
everybody stand up. I was so nervous but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward.

255
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:48,560
Deb's very musical. I will always cherish the hymn she sang for our group at Adam on the Almond.

256
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:56,000
And anyway, you've been very blessed and gifted Deborah with musical talent.

257
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,360
Oh, that's sweet. Thank you.

258
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,240
So that makes total sense. You'd believe in music when you were 18 years old.

259
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,160
I know your parents were as well, but anyway.

260
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,760
We came by it honestly.

261
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Yeah.

262
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:10,640
Our family.

263
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:17,280
So at this point, you're going to church. You feel like you're kind of getting back on track. You

264
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:23,040
feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things to work through and things

265
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,520
that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts. You're going to the, you're going to church,

266
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:34,240
you're participating in the thing that you love. And Dave's right. Deb is very musical and music

267
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,800
is an extremely important part of her life. And so that was really kind of a tender mercy,

268
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,480
wasn't it, that you were invited to be there. Deb has two favorite callings in the church.

269
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,720
One of them is to be the ward chorister and the other ones to be in young women's and she's

270
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,320
phenomenal at both. But so that's going on. And then there is something else happened.

271
00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:02,240
So I kept going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption

272
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,280
and worked really closely with the therapist, what case worker, maybe?

273
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,720
That I worked closely with her and said, okay, this is, this is my choice. This is what I'm going

274
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:20,800
to do. So you had decided to place the baby for adoption. Yeah. And I was back and forth.

275
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,360
You know, there were days that I was like, I don't know if I can do this. This is really difficult

276
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:32,640
because all I ever wanted to be in my whole life was a mom.

277
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:49,840
And to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom

278
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:57,200
or that wanted another baby in their life, it was a really, really hard decision. And

279
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:06,160
you talk about crying out in previous episodes, I definitely had those moments of crying out and

280
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:13,280
I pleaded with the Lord to please lead me and guide me, help me know where this innocent,

281
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:23,200
pure child is supposed to be. And I knew I could love the baby. I knew I could. But because I chose

282
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,880
not to marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life, I was like, this child deserves

283
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:38,000
a dad, a good dad. And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was giving this child exactly what

284
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:46,080
I was graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me. And so as I journaled and prayed

285
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:52,080
and journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those nine months, I felt like I was led.

286
00:31:53,280 --> 00:32:00,480
The way that they did it then was they would say, okay, we have family ABCDE. And here are the

287
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,240
characteristics. This is, this was completely closed adoption. And they said, this is the color

288
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:12,720
of their hair. This is their, their things they like, take these names and these people and,

289
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:21,040
and pray about it. And, and I did, I, I did not take that lightly. I knew this was a huge,

290
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:28,720
this was impacting in eternities. And I knew that I needed to be a part of that. I needed to

291
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:34,480
listen to the spirit because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to be. But I knew God

292
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:41,440
knew that's a pretty heavy task for a 17 year old. Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age.

293
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:48,720
But you did it. Obviously have great faith. Yeah, I did do it. And when I, when I chose the first

294
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:58,880
family and the family and the, the group that the social services, they have a committee that they

295
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,720
pray together, they, they say, we're going to take and pray about it too. We all felt good about

296
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:09,840
this first, like family A or something. And they approached the bishop and the bishop said,

297
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,360
you know, I don't know what's going on with the family. They're not as active, they're not

298
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,240
paying tithing. I don't know that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family.

299
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,960
That was impactful in my life right there. And then for the simple fact is what, what blessings

300
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,920
am I foregoing because of choices I'm making in my life? I will never forget that. And so we went

301
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,400
back to family ABCDE and took out family A or whatever family that was, we prayed about it again

302
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:46,080
to find the next family that was ready for this, this infant. That has been a really big part of

303
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:55,760
remembering at again, at a very young age to, to remember that blessings are predicated on,

304
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,560
on our obedience. And that was a really huge lesson for me to learn.

305
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:07,040
Well, so, so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much everything. And you're

306
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:14,880
obviously really focused on commandments then. And that is an amazing lesson, right? The blessings

307
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:22,800
are predicated upon our obedience, right? Amen. But at this point in your life, being so focused on

308
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:28,720
that, while not understanding the Atonement of Jesus Christ, is that fair to say?

309
00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:35,120
Yeah, 100% fair. So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. You're praying to God,

310
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:41,120
you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the spirit of the Lord in spite of your,

311
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:49,040
your challenges and your past and all of that. But there's, is it fair to say that there's no

312
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:56,800
repentance taking place basically? In my, at that time, I thought this was repentance. In that

313
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,000
innocence or that ignorance, whatever you want to call it, I felt like, oh, yeah, okay, this is

314
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,840
the repentance process, because I went and talked to the bishop, and now I'm getting answers from

315
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,320
Heavenly Father of what to do, and how to move forward with this mistake, with this sin. But as

316
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:20,880
far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was, did definitely did not

317
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,400
feel like as white as snow. Well, I, I want to correct myself. I'm sure there was some repenting

318
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:32,240
taking place, but crying out, right? That's part of repentance, having a relationship with

319
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:37,200
their Heavenly Father, feeling the spirit, seeing the bishop, all of that's, all of that's really

320
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:45,680
good stuff, all that's positive. But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, His atoning sacrifice

321
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,440
was at that time not really, I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then.

322
00:35:51,440 --> 00:36:00,560
Well, no. And as I finish my story, you're gonna see, I mean, it'll, it'll really play out.

323
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:10,560
So long story short, I have this baby and she was feet first. So I knew before the baby was

324
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,520
born that she would need to be a C-section. And I asked my doctor if they could put me completely

325
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,960
out. I don't want that, that bonding moment. My family was so supportive. My mom was there,

326
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:29,440
and my sister and sisters, and I just had a lot of support as far as that goes. And so they put

327
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:35,840
me out, give me a C-section. I wake up and there's this baby. And because I had her C-section,

328
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:44,720
she stayed in the hospital with me. And I got to spend five special days with her

329
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:56,480
that I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion. And there were bets in the hospital

330
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,360
that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't mine. I knew she wasn't. I was just a tool to get

331
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:11,920
her here. So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family. And of course,

332
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,400
the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy. And I can only imagine because I've

333
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:24,160
been able in years now to see the joy that people that have adopted have been able to

334
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:32,560
experience. And especially in a blended family, I feel like I put one out into the universe and

335
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,920
got four in return. I got four bonus kids when I married Scott. And I just feel like it's God's way

336
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:45,760
of saying, thank you, Deb. And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely

337
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:51,680
close relationship that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family. Yeah,

338
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,480
it's pretty tender. And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a family.

339
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,760
After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've done the hardest thing in my life. I can get on

340
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:07,520
with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married in the temple and live

341
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:13,600
happily ever after. I moved out with some roommates. So I'm no longer living with my brother. I have a

342
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:18,240
job up in Salt Lake. I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she

343
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:26,240
was taking me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating

344
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:34,640
and within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest.

345
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:43,680
And before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again. And I remember thinking,

346
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:51,840
I thought I learned my lesson. This is so and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told

347
00:38:51,840 --> 00:39:00,160
this person that I had had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was

348
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,880
kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you. So again, there was more rejection

349
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:13,040
and more validation that I'm not clean. I'm not pure. I'm not forgiven. I'm not, you know, virtuous.

350
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:21,120
I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get because of the story that I kept telling

351
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,760
myself. And I think that was probably the biggest thing that I've learned through all of this is

352
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:33,440
even though I felt like I had made a wrong right, I had not really used the Atonement of Jesus Christ

353
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:46,400
to allow it to cleanse or to purify the belief or the lies or to enable you enable you and strengthen

354
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:54,640
you to make the changes that you needed to make and to be changed right through his atoning sacrifice.

355
00:39:54,640 --> 00:40:01,600
Right. So now I'm right in the exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in

356
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:08,960
place to her for adoption, I'm pregnant again. And so when they talk about repeating the same sin

357
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:16,160
over and over, I now have pictures to go with those words and I'm not telling my mom because

358
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,360
the dad and dad, the devastation and all my older brothers and sisters had all been married in the

359
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:28,400
temple and serve missions. And so now I have this dirty little secret that we kind of hid.

360
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,160
And now it's like, okay, now what do I do? Because I'm definitely not going through that again.

361
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:42,080
That was excruciating like so hard. And so I just, we decided to get married. We have this wedding

362
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:48,160
that's not in the temple, not in the, you know, and I'm, I'm getting comments from family members

363
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,040
that come through the wedding line is, you know, this is not what the graves do. This is not what

364
00:40:53,040 --> 00:41:01,600
we do. Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt already. So just knowing all of the shame and

365
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:10,800
I shun and disappointment and what am I doing to this, this family name? What am I doing to my life?

366
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:20,000
I'm destroying my own life. And I honestly feel like now as I look back, I really felt like

367
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:30,480
because I was so broken and so damaged and so used and abused, not only now, not being a virgin,

368
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:37,680
but not, I mean, I'll have scars and stretch marks and I'm pretty much damaged goods who is

369
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:44,560
damaged goods who is going to want this. So I think the story that kept going on in my mind was

370
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:51,520
there's no way of cleaning this up. And I did not really believe that that's what the atonement was

371
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:59,360
for was to clean that mess up to make that wrong right. Because then I added an alcohol on top

372
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:05,360
of it, which was another rule that you do not dream, you know, stay virtuous, no fornication,

373
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:13,040
no all of this and and now it's just like I just jump deeper into a pit. So I think that was the

374
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:20,720
piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand. I really do not understand the

375
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:29,600
atonement. I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and over and over and even understanding.

376
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,000
So you were how old when you were married, Deborah?

377
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:40,480
I had just turned 19. Now you're married and you have the baby and and so all of this stuff is

378
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:47,840
heaped up. Yeah, it's piled on top of piles. And you're trying to start a marriage and

379
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:58,720
and just in a few seconds, how did that go? So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was

380
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:07,840
probably my motto for for suffer. Oh, definitely suffer. Yeah, through it. Yes. And one of the

381
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:14,000
blessings that came from that marriage was within a year of being married a little over a year,

382
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:22,160
we were able to take Jessica to be stilled to her in the temple and I received my endowments.

383
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:29,760
And I remember really when I entered the temple feeling, I remember having a pyrmogran. I just

384
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:36,880
remember literally feeling like everything's better now. Everything is going to work. Everything's

385
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,640
going to be okay. It was like this was my destination place. This is where I needed to get to. And now

386
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:51,760
I'm finally here. And I really hung on to the temple like clung, like almost like, you know,

387
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:57,200
snowstorm when you're just squeezing that steering wheel. I really feel like that's when I really

388
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:03,120
was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight. Because there were a lot of things that had

389
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:08,880
happened that had gone on in that marriage. I had, I have three amazing children from that

390
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,880
marriage, but there were a lot of challenges in that marriage that were very, very hard.

391
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:24,000
Commandments and now ordinances. You're really clinging to ordinances. And your faith is no

392
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,840
doubt really strong in your heavenly Father and in, in keeping the commandments and walking the

393
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,520
covenant path. What's your relationship with the Savior at that point? I think with the challenges

394
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:42,080
that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of the punishment for living the life I

395
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:49,920
have lived. And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and now I have the tools to pray and

396
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:57,120
stay active. And I, I remember at that time in my life, I kept thinking, maybe literally I thought

397
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:04,480
this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing, or maybe if I go

398
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:11,360
three times a week to the temple instead of just once, I remember like literally swinging, swinging

399
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:16,720
that pendulum completely the other way. Great example of trying to save yourself. That's a

400
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:23,200
great example. And I mean, we've all, I think we all, we all do that at some point or have

401
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:29,680
that we, we try to, to save ourselves. Oh yeah. It was a white knuckle experience. We, we not only,

402
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:37,280
we not only believe that we suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering or, or punishment

403
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:44,480
to as consequences of our sin, but you, and I've experienced this as well, you think you actually

404
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:52,000
have to suffer for your sins. Yeah, for sure. Right? For sure. You're not only suffering because of

405
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:57,920
them. Yeah. You're suffering for them. Oh yeah. You're trying to pay back. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I

406
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:03,680
literally, it was like, I, I wore that victim card loud and proud. I was such a victim.

407
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,560
It's funny to say now, but yeah, it was, it was very interesting.

408
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:17,200
So, um, we, we don't have a lot of time left when we're winding up. Uh, how did that marriage end?

409
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:24,400
And then how did it go after that? And Deborah, at what point in your life do you feel like you

410
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:30,960
finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ? And when did you feel like through his

411
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:39,200
merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and saved and you experienced

412
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:48,160
the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, at the end of the marriage, I, I just feel like we

413
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:54,480
grew apart. I mean, he, I did not, I would, I didn't, I was not the person he married. I

414
00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:03,200
changed and I changed a lot. And, um, so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just,

415
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:10,640
it was better that he go his way and I go my way. He's married to a wonderful woman too. Yes, he

416
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:16,160
has a good life. I love her and I'm so grateful for her. She's great to my kids and my grandkids. I'm,

417
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:27,520
yes, as I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and stuff.

418
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:35,600
And he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together. It wasn't until after I

419
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:43,040
had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped and lost my recommend

420
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:50,480
and was unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what the atonement of Jesus

421
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:58,960
Christ was because of the void. It wasn't there. And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel. I

422
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:07,120
was clinging to the temple. And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual timeout.

423
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:12,480
And I wouldn't even say spiritual, but maybe a physical timeout to just kind of spiritually

424
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:19,360
reconnect and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine.

425
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:28,400
Because I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality. I didn't understand it

426
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:35,760
the way that I do now. And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and

427
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:43,440
this devastating, you know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact

428
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:51,120
is there were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of turmoil, a lot of years of self doubt

429
00:48:51,120 --> 00:49:00,880
and self a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards the atonement of

430
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:06,880
Jesus Christ. I did not have to carry that for decades. I did not have to carry that victim.

431
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,880
I did not have to carry that any, any piece of that. And I think that's the part that it's like,

432
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:18,800
I just want to, I just want to stand on the top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you

433
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:24,880
make the same mistake over and over and over again, there is hope. And it is only through the

434
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:32,080
only through the Savior Jesus Christ and his blood. And I know that today. I know that I'm

435
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,680
still not done messing up. I know that. And I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form,

436
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,880
but I'm grateful that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit

437
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:50,480
and that I can cry unto him. You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you

438
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:57,200
did you have a cry out moment? I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily

439
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:07,520
that I just plead, plead with him, just help my will and thy will be one. Please help me commune

440
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:14,640
with thee. That is my wish and desire. And I definitely don't do it perfect or right.

441
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:22,640
But every day there's effort. And I'm just grateful today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves

442
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:33,600
me and I know that the Savior is very well aware of my journey and he did drip drops of blood for

443
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:41,840
me. He hung on that cross for me and he was resurrected for me. And for that I have hope,

444
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:50,560
a lot of hope and a lot of joy. And knowing that makes, makes all the difference. I'll just say

445
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:56,080
something here quickly and then Scott and Deborah, you can finish it. Part of what I've experienced

446
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,760
today is, and I may have shared this before in episode, but I think this is so important for

447
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:09,360
parents to get this lesson as they've listened to Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in

448
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,600
their, in their lives, in their families. I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training

449
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:19,680
center and Boyd K. Packer, President Packer was teaching and, and he told the missionaries there,

450
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,720
we're, we're not going to judge you by your number of baptisms. We're going to judge you by what kind

451
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:30,720
of parents and grandparents you become. And on that note, he said, I have some counsel for you

452
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:36,480
that you now live in a world that is more wicked than it is righteous. And if you don't do a better

453
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:45,520
job teaching your children the atonement of Jesus Christ, then you do teaching the commandments to

454
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,760
your children. You're going to lose your children because they're not going to keep all the commandments.

455
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:59,920
That's where we're at. And, and your example of that, Deborah, is I think amazing how, how you

456
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:07,440
have come back from so much in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now,

457
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:13,600
which I've always been inspired by you. And since I've known you since you married Scott,

458
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:23,520
how grateful I am for you, your example, and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice

459
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,680
in your life. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you.

460
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:35,760
Well, so I've heard this story literally hundreds of times, and I'm never left without impact every

461
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:41,760
time I do. I appreciate your honesty, I appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with

462
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,240
maybe a hard thing to sometimes put out there. And I know a lot of people would find it extremely

463
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:50,400
difficult to talk about these things. And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too, just

464
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:58,960
because I watch you do that. And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage,

465
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:04,480
your strength in doing so, because, you know, we've had last night, we were sitting out on our deck

466
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:10,160
in preparation for the things that we were going to talk about. And I asked you, why, why do you

467
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:15,120
do this? And, you know, your answer is the same as my answer when I'm asked that question about,

468
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,160
you know, when I share my story and stuff too. And your answer was if I can't answer that,

469
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:26,960
if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or strength or even just an inkling,

470
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:33,200
a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're not in the exact same situation,

471
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:38,720
but may be filling those feelings of distance from our Heavenly Father because of choices that we

472
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:44,960
make or filling that separation of the Spirit, whether it be real or imagined, because of the

473
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:50,560
way that we have been raised in a culture where we talk about commandments and those things are

474
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:57,040
important. And sometimes we could do a better job in talking about our relationship with our

475
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:02,320
Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I've watched you. I know your relationship with Him. Deb and I,

476
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:10,080
when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and just being there

477
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:14,960
and feeling our Heavenly Father Spirit. We have an important relationship, Deb and I do, Dave.

478
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,400
And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly Father for being the most

479
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:27,360
important person in our relationship. He's first. He's first to Deborah and He's first to me. And

480
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:33,280
because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward to an eternity with.

481
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,240
Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart?

482
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:47,280
No, I just, I just appreciate being able to share my story. It's, and again, just pray that it can

483
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:55,120
touch one person to at least look at the possibility to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their

484
00:54:55,120 --> 00:55:03,120
lives because it has been such a huge impactful thing in my life. And I'm just so grateful.

485
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:10,160
Yeah, I just have one more thought. You mentioned after you were married, your first marriage and

486
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,360
going to the temple and you were just going to endure to the end. That's how you kind of saw it,

487
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:24,000
right? Yep. And you were clinging. You said you used that word clinging to that. How do you see

488
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:33,120
enduring to the end differently now? Then you did then. Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think

489
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:41,760
the clinging is more in a triad with Heavenly Father and having a companion that wants what I

490
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:51,680
want and has the same goals, has the same, I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection

491
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:59,360
that it's like this is a whole lot easier. Well, you know what I'm thinking of, Deborah is and Scott

492
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:05,840
is bringing a little scripture into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight, when Lehi

493
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:14,080
has a stream, right? Of the tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod. And there are four groups

494
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:21,040
of people that he describes in that. And one of the groups is the group that is clinging. He uses

495
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:28,080
the word clinging to the rod of iron and they get to the tree and they notice the great spacious

496
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:37,280
building and they fall away. The cleaners don't last. And then he sees another group of people

497
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:43,840
that are simply holding fast. He could, yeah, that's the term that he uses, that they're holding

498
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:51,760
fast. They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit and they fall down in worship. They

499
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:57,520
acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit, at least as the

500
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:05,040
atonement of Jesus Christ. They fall down. They are not at all interested in the greatest

501
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:11,600
spacious building. And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners

502
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:20,400
never last, you have to hold fast. And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of

503
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:28,320
Jesus Christ. And the key to that is how we see our Savior, our Father's plan of redemption and

504
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:34,160
the role of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement. And that makes

505
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,480
enduring, I mean, it looks completely different. It feels completely different, right, Debra?

506
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:44,640
Right, absolutely. And that just brought me to, in my patriarchal blessing, it tells me,

507
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,760
in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness. Go forth and be happy,

508
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:58,720
be happy, be happy. And I literally am living that today. Is that joy and happiness in living

509
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:06,320
the gospel, having it very much alive, being steadfast in that, again, I don't do it perfect,

510
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:12,880
and I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I definitely am experiencing joy. That was my

511
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:18,160
favorite thing in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and repentance, that

512
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:26,480
resonated really big with me. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Well, thanks so much, Deb,

513
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,600
for being here. If you want to- I love being with both of you and for the sweet relationship

514
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:37,440
that you have. So thank you for your example in that as well. Well, thanks, Dave. We don't

515
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:42,320
normally do this, but for whatever reason, you'd like to send a question even to Deb,

516
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:50,080
or reach out with whatever a comment to her, encouraging her, thanking her for being here.

517
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:56,800
Do that through our email at heredeemsus at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com.

518
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:02,880
Well, I have felt the spirit today. I think that our listeners will too, as they listen to your

519
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:09,280
openness, your transparency, your love. One thing that Deb is gifted with, and it is a

520
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:14,080
spiritual gift. She's gifted with love. She knows how to love. She loves everybody that she comes

521
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:18,720
in contact with. I think that that's a direct result of her feeling her Heavenly Father's love

522
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,400
through the power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and His Atonement as well.

523
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:30,480
Thanks for being with us, Deb. Dave, thanks for doing this again. I cherish these moments. Love

524
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:36,480
you both so much. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us for another podcast. We hope

525
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:42,160
you feel God's love for you. We hope, and it's important to us that you do know that you have

526
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,640
been redeemed through His blood. We look forward to being with you again. Thanks for being with us

527
00:59:46,640 --> 01:00:02,560
today. Take care.