Hey there everybody. Listen, David and I have found it for the first time in a year, which
is actually quite remarkable if you think about it given our busy schedules, but we
found it impossible to connect this week. And so because of that, we made the decision
to go ahead and play a very popular interview that we did several months ago. This is with
my sweet wife, Deborah Durfee, an amazing interview. I'm sure we are going to go ahead
and do a bit of an encore presentation of that, if you will. We'll be back next week.
Appreciate all of your participation. Most of all, appreciate your understanding. So here it is.
Well, hello everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast, we discuss
hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My name is Scott Durfey. I want
to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David DurfeyThank you, Scott. So good
to be here this morning. We've got a great podcast in store, I think, today. A real treat. I'll get
to that in just a minute. Before we do, I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've
received a lot of great questions and some experiences. Wow, we've received a couple of wonderful
experiences that have been shared with us, experiences of hope, experiences of crying out,
experiences of tying into the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His Atonement in
ways that have made monumental changes and even some small important changes in life. So we're
grateful for those. We'd encourage you to continue sending us your emails. We appreciate them very
much. We appreciate your suggestions. We appreciate your questions. We try to weave them into the
conversation. And again, we will probably be taking some individual podcasts to deal with some of
those questions at a future date. But in the meantime, if we could just ask you to keep sending
those to us, we appreciate it. You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. He redeems us at
gmail.com. So we appreciate that very much. We've had some great conversations, Dave, over the last
several weeks about repentance, what it's not, what it is. We talked a little bit about confession.
Confession, we're going to continue in that vein on what repentance is in upcoming podcasts as well.
But today, we're going to take just a little diversion from that vein in its entirety. We
definitely, these things that we're going to be doing today fall in that vein and in fact,
personify the things that we're going to be talking about in a great way. I want to introduce
somebody who's super important to me. She's very important to David as well. But
I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to have to not look at you, Dave.
I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me. Dave's learned
to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually of our family.
My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today. Wonderful story. Say hi, Deb.
Hello, everyone. It's so good to have you here. So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little introduction
about Deb, kind of give a little background on her and then we'll get right into some questions and
let Deb talk about her story and the importance of it and how it relates to being redeemed through
the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways. So Deb and I actually met in 1998
in Lehi, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in and kind of helped and was super instrumental
in helping develop and bring about the addiction recovery program from the church here
in Utah County. And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that are obvious to those who
have been listening for a while. For those who aren't, I'm recovering alcoholic with 23 years and
11 months and two weeks of sobriety. I have to have a party next month. Yeah, October 26. That's
right. 24 years. 24 years. But Deb and I met just prior to, well, just after two months after my
getting sober roughly and a few years later, we ended up married. Deb and I have had an opportunity to
share both of our stories in sacrament meetings and firesides, countless firesides and
fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's camps, healer men's camps and those kinds of things.
And it's been a wonderful experience for both of us as we've kind of hand in hand walked the journey
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our own lives separately and together as we've worked hard to do
a little Brady Bunch thing. We have seven kids between us. We love them all. We don't differentiate
in who's who's or any of those things. They're all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren.
We love them, I think just as much as we love our kids and maybe some days even a little bit more.
So one other thing, you know, this story that I think Deb's going to be sharing, at least parts
of it today, is a story that she has personally shared in high schools and junior highs and
recovery centers, especially those specifically for women all over the state of Utah and for
over 20 years now and in fact, well over 20 years now. And this story that we're going to be talking
about, especially as it relates to how it ties into the redemption being redeemed through his blood,
the blood, of course, of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, his power through the Atonement.
As those things, as we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to be great
relevance in all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of those
that may be finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations. So let's just start
off Deb. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about maybe kind of
lead us into where we, where you want to go with what we talk about here and we'll just go from there.
So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories. So when you invited me
to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was actually going to share. But I
feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular story, which was a huge part of
my life in giving me who I am and forming me the way that it was just part of my journey of how I
learned more about me and more about the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And something Deb that can bless
the lives of so many others. I'm sure you're thinking about that. Yeah, I always tell people,
I'm a good example of what not to be. So, um, or how to become, there you go. There's hope.
Anyway, as I was reflecting on, on what story I would share, I thought about one of the first
really big impactful experiences that happened in my life when I was between my junior and
senior year in high school. And I was dating a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of
youth pamphlet back in the olden days. And we just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down
with a guy, don't stay out past midnight. And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay
virtuous and to be worthy, those were the vague rules that I heard. I'm sure there probably were
many others that were getting more explicit, more explanation than I was, but those are the ones that
I basically remember. And so when I was in the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an
obedient youth and I had an experience where I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with
a group of people and I did the unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie.
So you broke two rules. I broke both rules all in the same night.
Stayed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched a movie with, with a guy. Long story
short, I found myself being violated. And it wasn't that night. It was the, you know, the very next
day during broad daylight. I was, I was raped and it was very traumatic to me. It was scary.
I was horrified. I was devastated. I fought with every strength in my body to stop what was going on
and was not successful. And I felt completely broken and so devastated. When I left, I went,
I was returning a video, if you guys remember back in the day of Blockbuster when you're
returning videos. And I remember going home, my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl
up in a ball and literally just go to sleep and not wake up. I was so broken and so devastated
for what had happened to me. But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two
rules that I was always told not to break. I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I
didn't. And so that now I understood why you don't do those things. So feeling more than a victim,
you felt that you had brought it on yourself and that you deserved it. I did. I broke those rules.
And so I felt like I deserved that. I knew better than that because I had been told that over and
over and over and I broke those two rules that were always told to me. Can I ask a question
real quick? Yeah. And I don't want you to lose your train of thought. I want you we're going to say,
but can you kind of give us an overview of what your relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus
was like at that point? So I was raised just like Nephi with Goodly Parents and we went to church
every week and I loved primary. I loved all of the weekly church activities we participated.
We had family night every Monday night. We had family prayer every morning. I mean, I was raised
I was raised in a very strong, great home. However, I did have my own interpretation of what
God was. Jesus was his helper in my in my young mind. He was there to help Heavenly Father.
And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that there was a loving
Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the wrong choices.
And I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching all the
good and the bad. And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of those black
marks that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the waters of
baptism. They're all all those black marks are going to go away. And I remember thinking,
I can't erase her. Yeah, it was the eraser. And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong
ever again. Don't don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad deed,
whatever. I just I just remember my slate is clean. And and of course, I knew shortly after I turned
eight and into eight years and one day after being baptized, that there were some black marks
already going up there. And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God as I understood
him is kind of like the cop. And I remember even sometimes being outside in the summer rain
with the lightning and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody right
now, because I can hear some thunder. But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to me,
I just thought. And then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers. And I remember them
saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying, because he's, you know, I'm like, Oh,
maybe he's crying because he's upset with all black marks they have. I mean, it's funny what we
kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means what. How do you think that
that view that you had of Heavenly Father at that point, how do you think that affected your
reaction to all these things that had just happened to you? Oh, I knew he was so mad at me. I knew he
was absolutely disappointed. I knew that I had broke every rule that I had ever been told. And
I just knew he was in pure utter disappointment with me. So what I hear you describing, Deb,
is you say the commandments were clearly taught in your home. Yes. But it wasn't so much. It was a
gospel of commandments, dues and don'ts. And not so much a gospel of relationships. Sounds like
really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what the Atonement of Jesus Christ really was
about. What redemption was, what salvation was, how can we draw closer to them? What's their character
attributes and perfections, which is the requirements to really exercise faith in him.
Those things were kind of missing in your gospel youth upbringing. Absolutely. Everything was
black and white. It was all about the dues and the don'ts. And it wasn't because it probably wasn't
taught, but I sure didn't hear it or feel it. Yeah. Whether it was me not listening, whether it was
just the misunderstanding. And I was telling my own story in my own head of what this all
looked like. And the things that were spoken to me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and
and understood it the best way I knew how far as understanding God and his Son, Jesus Christ.
And really, I did not, I can tell you right now in the stage of my life, I truly did not understand
the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I had no clue Christ. There's no way I understood that at that time.
Yeah. Okay. So you're, you're raped. How old were you? It was the summer I turned 17.
Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments. How did that, how did that go?
Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone. I could not tell a single solitary soul. I had brought
this onto myself because of choices I had made. And so there was, it was something that no one
was going to know, even though deep down inside it ate at me. And I had this secret that was just
utterly painful. And I, I kept telling myself over and over, you're ruined. You're damaged.
You're, you're not virtuous anymore. You're not clean. You're not pure. You're not worthy.
So all of these stories. And then as I would go to church and, and go into the young women,
you know, organization and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay virtuous and clean. And,
and I just knew all is lost. I really knew all was lost. There was no hope for me because it was,
it was already broken. How long after you were, did the, did the, your pregnancy, was that the
results? So, um, I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I, I couldn't resolve it
within my own head, within my own heart. I couldn't resolve it. And so, you know, of course I would
get on my knees and say, you know, I'm only father, this is really uncomfortable for me. And I don't
like it. Can you please remove it? And of course it didn't, because I didn't really understand
exactly how to resolve it. And so I think within, oh, I would say within a few months,
I kind of threw my hands in the air and gave up in the fact that, um, I had a friend that
introduced me to alcohol. And when I realized that alcohol made me feel different and I didn't
feel guilt and shame and I didn't feel that story of not good enough. Um, that helped numb out
that story I was telling myself and also the pain that went with that guilt and shame
that was so alive in me. And so then when I started drinking, then I'm, you know, reconnecting and,
and having, getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed, I mean, it kind of spiraled down
until then I, then I find myself pregnant. So it wasn't a one time thing. It was a choice.
After that, it was a choice of, yeah, I, I like this. I'm going to go do it this way.
And you had that point not talked to anybody about this?
Oh no, never. No, you're hiding all of that, the drinking and everything and your parents and
you hadn't talked to the Bishop or, oh no, no, I didn't talk to anybody about it.
The only one that knew was my friend and, and at the time my boyfriend.
Okay. So I'm, so what, so what, so what happened after that? Uh, you, uh, say you got pregnant.
Once that happened, I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that?
Oh, I, I just remember I had to go over to the hospital to get a blood test. I don't remember
if they even had home tests at that time, but I just remember going over to the hospital and
getting a blood test. And then I had to get on my landline and call after four o'clock to find out
the results. And I remember when I called the hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other
end said, results are positive. Like in such a happy way. And I like in pure devastation, hung up
that phone and almost went back in the fetal position. And I remember calling my friend and
I said, I have no idea what to do. Um, I, I just got a positive test on, on my pregnancy.
And I, I got to tell my mom, I got to tell my dad, this is something you don't hide.
This is something that you can't keep a secret. Now it's, now it's going to be exposed. And so
I took some time and, and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him. I sat them both down and
told them. And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through this.
And I remember, you know, just feeling, okay, I know I devastated them. I know they were just like
jaw dropped and like, what are we going to do? I remember the visualization. I remember feeling
like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder. I just remember thinking, how am I ever going to get
out of this? How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again? How am I going to find
like any kind of joy or happiness? This is utter devastation and despair. And I remember
looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy. I just want to fill your joy and happiness again.
And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and helpless
and broken with, with no tools to get out of this, this whole damaged goods. Oh, so damaged,
so damaged goods. Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at
this point for you? I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders? Did you? So of course, I know
that I know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when, when these kinds of things happen. And at
this time, I'm a senior in high school and I'm attending seminary. I'm in my fourth year of
seminary. I was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time. I'm very active in church
still. And your dad had been a bishop. Yeah. When I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something.
But now I'm, I'm 17. Of course, I make an appointment with the bishop. And at that point
in my life, and I'm learning this as I'm older now, listening to the, to what repentance is and
what repentance isn't. Well, as, as a matter of fact, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness
institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students. And you're very impactful there. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a different perspective today. Right. Right. And I had read the Miracle of
forgiveness and now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has definitely, yes, has definitely
changed my interpretation and understanding more fully. Thank goodness. And more holy. So you went
to the bishop. So I made an appointment, go into the bishop and I basically say, so I've been involved
in some things that I'm not really happy about and I'm pregnant. And at this time, I'm sure I, I can
clearly tell you my bishop was absolute shocked because his, the look on his face and then he
dropped his head into his, both of his hands and just kept shaking his head. No. And just in absolute
utter like, Oh my gosh. And he just kept saying, Oh, Deb, Oh, oh my gosh. I can't believe this. I
can't believe this. And he kept shaking his head. No. And I just sat there watching him with like
eyes of like, Oh, can I just run out of this room right now? Can I just like exit? Like,
because I don't want to be here and watch this. Cause I already feel like that. I already felt
like he was feeling and I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head and no, I can't
believe this either. I don't, it's not the ideal. This was not my goal. And so long story short,
I left and I remember my parents asking me, so how did it go with the bishop? No, let me back up
for just a second because I think it's important to know at that time in my life, I really, it was
really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is the mouthpiece for the savior. This
is like, you're going to confess and you're going to go tell a priesthood authority what you have
done. And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, okay, this is how the savior feels about me. This is
how he, he's, he's disgusted. He is devastated. He is like shocked. He just cannot believe that I have,
I have got myself in this situation. And so then again, the story enhances. And then I believe that
this is exactly how the savior feels about me and where we're going. You know, it's like,
yep, I've disappointed him. Yep, I am ruined. Yep, I made that really big bad choice and here I am.
And so anyway, when I get home and I'm, my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the bishop? And
I said, honestly, I feel worse. I don't feel forgiven because that was my checklist. I was,
if I went in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better. That was, that was the rule of
the repentance process in my little brain. And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and,
and confessed to him and I came home feeling worse, I was like, okay, that was a big fat fail.
That did not work. You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, okay, now we,
we're going to go find a support group. And at that time, LDS social services had a support
group for single girls, women that were pregnant out of wedlock, and they would have a counseling
group and they would go at four o'clock on Tuesdays or something. And we would all sit around at a
table and talk about what we were going to do. Some, and some of these girls were further along,
some of these girls had already had babies, some of them placed them for adoption, some of them
kept them. They just basically shared their story of this is why I chose this, this is why I chose
that. And as an observer and as a terrified little girl, in this situation, I got to see
things that were happening in their lives. So, and how they handled the similar situation.
So I started going to that support group. I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant.
It was a big fat secret. And I just wore big hoodies. Nobody knew I didn't say anything to
anybody. There were speculations, of course, rumors get out and I grew up in a really small town.
And when I graduated from high school, I immediately moved up to West Jordan
with my brother and sister-in-law. They graciously opened a room to me and welcomed me.
You did that on your own or were you encouraged to do that?
I was encouraged to get out of town until I decided what I was going to do with this pregnancy.
So somewhat, did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned?
For sure. Yeah, I just had to get out of the small town because we didn't want to ruin
reputations and ruin what it was supposed to look like.
So you were sent away. Yeah, I did get a job up in Salt Lake. I do need to back up a little bit
because after I had talked to the bishop, within a week or two, I was at church and I still attended
church. I didn't stop going to church. He called me in his office and he very humbly said,
Deb, I owe you an apology. I just want you to know how sorry I am for the way I handled that
situation. And I want you to know that I'm human and I make mistakes and that was a really big
mistake and I hope you can forgive me. That was a tender, tender, pivotal time in my life to be able
to feel his sincere repentance and sorrow for the way that he handled that situation.
Long story short, as I was working through that, I was able to graduate four years of
seminary. I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking, but was able to
graduate four years of seminary and then graduate from high school and then I moved up to Salt Lake.
The bishop up there and the whole ward was great. I'm 17 years old and now it's quite obvious that
I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling and I was so excited to have a calling and they asked me to
be the ward chorister. And the first week that I led this singing was the 4th of July, so I made
everybody stand up. I was so nervous but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward.
Deb's very musical. I will always cherish the hymn she sang for our group at Adam on the Almond.
And anyway, you've been very blessed and gifted Deborah with musical talent.
Oh, that's sweet. Thank you.
So that makes total sense. You'd believe in music when you were 18 years old.
I know your parents were as well, but anyway.
We came by it honestly.
Yeah.
Our family.
So at this point, you're going to church. You feel like you're kind of getting back on track. You
feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things to work through and things
that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts. You're going to the, you're going to church,
you're participating in the thing that you love. And Dave's right. Deb is very musical and music
is an extremely important part of her life. And so that was really kind of a tender mercy,
wasn't it, that you were invited to be there. Deb has two favorite callings in the church.
One of them is to be the ward chorister and the other ones to be in young women's and she's
phenomenal at both. But so that's going on. And then there is something else happened.
So I kept going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption
and worked really closely with the therapist, what case worker, maybe?
That I worked closely with her and said, okay, this is, this is my choice. This is what I'm going
to do. So you had decided to place the baby for adoption. Yeah. And I was back and forth.
You know, there were days that I was like, I don't know if I can do this. This is really difficult
because all I ever wanted to be in my whole life was a mom.
And to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom
or that wanted another baby in their life, it was a really, really hard decision. And
you talk about crying out in previous episodes, I definitely had those moments of crying out and
I pleaded with the Lord to please lead me and guide me, help me know where this innocent,
pure child is supposed to be. And I knew I could love the baby. I knew I could. But because I chose
not to marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life, I was like, this child deserves
a dad, a good dad. And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was giving this child exactly what
I was graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me. And so as I journaled and prayed
and journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those nine months, I felt like I was led.
The way that they did it then was they would say, okay, we have family ABCDE. And here are the
characteristics. This is, this was completely closed adoption. And they said, this is the color
of their hair. This is their, their things they like, take these names and these people and,
and pray about it. And, and I did, I, I did not take that lightly. I knew this was a huge,
this was impacting in eternities. And I knew that I needed to be a part of that. I needed to
listen to the spirit because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to be. But I knew God
knew that's a pretty heavy task for a 17 year old. Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age.
But you did it. Obviously have great faith. Yeah, I did do it. And when I, when I chose the first
family and the family and the, the group that the social services, they have a committee that they
pray together, they, they say, we're going to take and pray about it too. We all felt good about
this first, like family A or something. And they approached the bishop and the bishop said,
you know, I don't know what's going on with the family. They're not as active, they're not
paying tithing. I don't know that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family.
That was impactful in my life right there. And then for the simple fact is what, what blessings
am I foregoing because of choices I'm making in my life? I will never forget that. And so we went
back to family ABCDE and took out family A or whatever family that was, we prayed about it again
to find the next family that was ready for this, this infant. That has been a really big part of
remembering at again, at a very young age to, to remember that blessings are predicated on,
on our obedience. And that was a really huge lesson for me to learn.
Well, so, so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much everything. And you're
obviously really focused on commandments then. And that is an amazing lesson, right? The blessings
are predicated upon our obedience, right? Amen. But at this point in your life, being so focused on
that, while not understanding the Atonement of Jesus Christ, is that fair to say?
Yeah, 100% fair. So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. You're praying to God,
you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the spirit of the Lord in spite of your,
your challenges and your past and all of that. But there's, is it fair to say that there's no
repentance taking place basically? In my, at that time, I thought this was repentance. In that
innocence or that ignorance, whatever you want to call it, I felt like, oh, yeah, okay, this is
the repentance process, because I went and talked to the bishop, and now I'm getting answers from
Heavenly Father of what to do, and how to move forward with this mistake, with this sin. But as
far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was, did definitely did not
feel like as white as snow. Well, I, I want to correct myself. I'm sure there was some repenting
taking place, but crying out, right? That's part of repentance, having a relationship with
their Heavenly Father, feeling the spirit, seeing the bishop, all of that's, all of that's really
good stuff, all that's positive. But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, His atoning sacrifice
was at that time not really, I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then.
Well, no. And as I finish my story, you're gonna see, I mean, it'll, it'll really play out.
So long story short, I have this baby and she was feet first. So I knew before the baby was
born that she would need to be a C-section. And I asked my doctor if they could put me completely
out. I don't want that, that bonding moment. My family was so supportive. My mom was there,
and my sister and sisters, and I just had a lot of support as far as that goes. And so they put
me out, give me a C-section. I wake up and there's this baby. And because I had her C-section,
she stayed in the hospital with me. And I got to spend five special days with her
that I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion. And there were bets in the hospital
that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't mine. I knew she wasn't. I was just a tool to get
her here. So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family. And of course,
the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy. And I can only imagine because I've
been able in years now to see the joy that people that have adopted have been able to
experience. And especially in a blended family, I feel like I put one out into the universe and
got four in return. I got four bonus kids when I married Scott. And I just feel like it's God's way
of saying, thank you, Deb. And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely
close relationship that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family. Yeah,
it's pretty tender. And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a family.
After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've done the hardest thing in my life. I can get on
with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married in the temple and live
happily ever after. I moved out with some roommates. So I'm no longer living with my brother. I have a
job up in Salt Lake. I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she
was taking me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating
and within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest.
And before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again. And I remember thinking,
I thought I learned my lesson. This is so and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told
this person that I had had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was
kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you. So again, there was more rejection
and more validation that I'm not clean. I'm not pure. I'm not forgiven. I'm not, you know, virtuous.
I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get because of the story that I kept telling
myself. And I think that was probably the biggest thing that I've learned through all of this is
even though I felt like I had made a wrong right, I had not really used the Atonement of Jesus Christ
to allow it to cleanse or to purify the belief or the lies or to enable you enable you and strengthen
you to make the changes that you needed to make and to be changed right through his atoning sacrifice.
Right. So now I'm right in the exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in
place to her for adoption, I'm pregnant again. And so when they talk about repeating the same sin
over and over, I now have pictures to go with those words and I'm not telling my mom because
the dad and dad, the devastation and all my older brothers and sisters had all been married in the
temple and serve missions. And so now I have this dirty little secret that we kind of hid.
And now it's like, okay, now what do I do? Because I'm definitely not going through that again.
That was excruciating like so hard. And so I just, we decided to get married. We have this wedding
that's not in the temple, not in the, you know, and I'm, I'm getting comments from family members
that come through the wedding line is, you know, this is not what the graves do. This is not what
we do. Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt already. So just knowing all of the shame and
I shun and disappointment and what am I doing to this, this family name? What am I doing to my life?
I'm destroying my own life. And I honestly feel like now as I look back, I really felt like
because I was so broken and so damaged and so used and abused, not only now, not being a virgin,
but not, I mean, I'll have scars and stretch marks and I'm pretty much damaged goods who is
damaged goods who is going to want this. So I think the story that kept going on in my mind was
there's no way of cleaning this up. And I did not really believe that that's what the atonement was
for was to clean that mess up to make that wrong right. Because then I added an alcohol on top
of it, which was another rule that you do not dream, you know, stay virtuous, no fornication,
no all of this and and now it's just like I just jump deeper into a pit. So I think that was the
piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand. I really do not understand the
atonement. I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and over and over and even understanding.
So you were how old when you were married, Deborah?
I had just turned 19. Now you're married and you have the baby and and so all of this stuff is
heaped up. Yeah, it's piled on top of piles. And you're trying to start a marriage and
and just in a few seconds, how did that go? So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was
probably my motto for for suffer. Oh, definitely suffer. Yeah, through it. Yes. And one of the
blessings that came from that marriage was within a year of being married a little over a year,
we were able to take Jessica to be stilled to her in the temple and I received my endowments.
And I remember really when I entered the temple feeling, I remember having a pyrmogran. I just
remember literally feeling like everything's better now. Everything is going to work. Everything's
going to be okay. It was like this was my destination place. This is where I needed to get to. And now
I'm finally here. And I really hung on to the temple like clung, like almost like, you know,
snowstorm when you're just squeezing that steering wheel. I really feel like that's when I really
was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight. Because there were a lot of things that had
happened that had gone on in that marriage. I had, I have three amazing children from that
marriage, but there were a lot of challenges in that marriage that were very, very hard.
Commandments and now ordinances. You're really clinging to ordinances. And your faith is no
doubt really strong in your heavenly Father and in, in keeping the commandments and walking the
covenant path. What's your relationship with the Savior at that point? I think with the challenges
that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of the punishment for living the life I
have lived. And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and now I have the tools to pray and
stay active. And I, I remember at that time in my life, I kept thinking, maybe literally I thought
this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing, or maybe if I go
three times a week to the temple instead of just once, I remember like literally swinging, swinging
that pendulum completely the other way. Great example of trying to save yourself. That's a
great example. And I mean, we've all, I think we all, we all do that at some point or have
that we, we try to, to save ourselves. Oh yeah. It was a white knuckle experience. We, we not only,
we not only believe that we suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering or, or punishment
to as consequences of our sin, but you, and I've experienced this as well, you think you actually
have to suffer for your sins. Yeah, for sure. Right? For sure. You're not only suffering because of
them. Yeah. You're suffering for them. Oh yeah. You're trying to pay back. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I
literally, it was like, I, I wore that victim card loud and proud. I was such a victim.
It's funny to say now, but yeah, it was, it was very interesting.
So, um, we, we don't have a lot of time left when we're winding up. Uh, how did that marriage end?
And then how did it go after that? And Deborah, at what point in your life do you feel like you
finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ? And when did you feel like through his
merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and saved and you experienced
the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, at the end of the marriage, I, I just feel like we
grew apart. I mean, he, I did not, I would, I didn't, I was not the person he married. I
changed and I changed a lot. And, um, so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just,
it was better that he go his way and I go my way. He's married to a wonderful woman too. Yes, he
has a good life. I love her and I'm so grateful for her. She's great to my kids and my grandkids. I'm,
yes, as I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and stuff.
And he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together. It wasn't until after I
had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped and lost my recommend
and was unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what the atonement of Jesus
Christ was because of the void. It wasn't there. And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel. I
was clinging to the temple. And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual timeout.
And I wouldn't even say spiritual, but maybe a physical timeout to just kind of spiritually
reconnect and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine.
Because I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality. I didn't understand it
the way that I do now. And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and
this devastating, you know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact
is there were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of turmoil, a lot of years of self doubt
and self a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards the atonement of
Jesus Christ. I did not have to carry that for decades. I did not have to carry that victim.
I did not have to carry that any, any piece of that. And I think that's the part that it's like,
I just want to, I just want to stand on the top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you
make the same mistake over and over and over again, there is hope. And it is only through the
only through the Savior Jesus Christ and his blood. And I know that today. I know that I'm
still not done messing up. I know that. And I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form,
but I'm grateful that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit
and that I can cry unto him. You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you
did you have a cry out moment? I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily
that I just plead, plead with him, just help my will and thy will be one. Please help me commune
with thee. That is my wish and desire. And I definitely don't do it perfect or right.
But every day there's effort. And I'm just grateful today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves
me and I know that the Savior is very well aware of my journey and he did drip drops of blood for
me. He hung on that cross for me and he was resurrected for me. And for that I have hope,
a lot of hope and a lot of joy. And knowing that makes, makes all the difference. I'll just say
something here quickly and then Scott and Deborah, you can finish it. Part of what I've experienced
today is, and I may have shared this before in episode, but I think this is so important for
parents to get this lesson as they've listened to Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in
their, in their lives, in their families. I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training
center and Boyd K. Packer, President Packer was teaching and, and he told the missionaries there,
we're, we're not going to judge you by your number of baptisms. We're going to judge you by what kind
of parents and grandparents you become. And on that note, he said, I have some counsel for you
that you now live in a world that is more wicked than it is righteous. And if you don't do a better
job teaching your children the atonement of Jesus Christ, then you do teaching the commandments to
your children. You're going to lose your children because they're not going to keep all the commandments.
That's where we're at. And, and your example of that, Deborah, is I think amazing how, how you
have come back from so much in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now,
which I've always been inspired by you. And since I've known you since you married Scott,
how grateful I am for you, your example, and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice
in your life. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you.
Well, so I've heard this story literally hundreds of times, and I'm never left without impact every
time I do. I appreciate your honesty, I appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with
maybe a hard thing to sometimes put out there. And I know a lot of people would find it extremely
difficult to talk about these things. And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too, just
because I watch you do that. And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage,
your strength in doing so, because, you know, we've had last night, we were sitting out on our deck
in preparation for the things that we were going to talk about. And I asked you, why, why do you
do this? And, you know, your answer is the same as my answer when I'm asked that question about,
you know, when I share my story and stuff too. And your answer was if I can't answer that,
if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or strength or even just an inkling,
a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're not in the exact same situation,
but may be filling those feelings of distance from our Heavenly Father because of choices that we
make or filling that separation of the Spirit, whether it be real or imagined, because of the
way that we have been raised in a culture where we talk about commandments and those things are
important. And sometimes we could do a better job in talking about our relationship with our
Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I've watched you. I know your relationship with Him. Deb and I,
when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and just being there
and feeling our Heavenly Father Spirit. We have an important relationship, Deb and I do, Dave.
And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly Father for being the most
important person in our relationship. He's first. He's first to Deborah and He's first to me. And
because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward to an eternity with.
Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart?
No, I just, I just appreciate being able to share my story. It's, and again, just pray that it can
touch one person to at least look at the possibility to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their
lives because it has been such a huge impactful thing in my life. And I'm just so grateful.
Yeah, I just have one more thought. You mentioned after you were married, your first marriage and
going to the temple and you were just going to endure to the end. That's how you kind of saw it,
right? Yep. And you were clinging. You said you used that word clinging to that. How do you see
enduring to the end differently now? Then you did then. Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think
the clinging is more in a triad with Heavenly Father and having a companion that wants what I
want and has the same goals, has the same, I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection
that it's like this is a whole lot easier. Well, you know what I'm thinking of, Deborah is and Scott
is bringing a little scripture into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight, when Lehi
has a stream, right? Of the tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod. And there are four groups
of people that he describes in that. And one of the groups is the group that is clinging. He uses
the word clinging to the rod of iron and they get to the tree and they notice the great spacious
building and they fall away. The cleaners don't last. And then he sees another group of people
that are simply holding fast. He could, yeah, that's the term that he uses, that they're holding
fast. They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit and they fall down in worship. They
acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit, at least as the
atonement of Jesus Christ. They fall down. They are not at all interested in the greatest
spacious building. And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners
never last, you have to hold fast. And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of
Jesus Christ. And the key to that is how we see our Savior, our Father's plan of redemption and
the role of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement. And that makes
enduring, I mean, it looks completely different. It feels completely different, right, Debra?
Right, absolutely. And that just brought me to, in my patriarchal blessing, it tells me,
in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness. Go forth and be happy,
be happy, be happy. And I literally am living that today. Is that joy and happiness in living
the gospel, having it very much alive, being steadfast in that, again, I don't do it perfect,
and I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I definitely am experiencing joy. That was my
favorite thing in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and repentance, that
resonated really big with me. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Well, thanks so much, Deb,
for being here. If you want to- I love being with both of you and for the sweet relationship
that you have. So thank you for your example in that as well. Well, thanks, Dave. We don't
normally do this, but for whatever reason, you'd like to send a question even to Deb,
or reach out with whatever a comment to her, encouraging her, thanking her for being here.
Do that through our email at heredeemsus at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com.
Well, I have felt the spirit today. I think that our listeners will too, as they listen to your
openness, your transparency, your love. One thing that Deb is gifted with, and it is a
spiritual gift. She's gifted with love. She knows how to love. She loves everybody that she comes
in contact with. I think that that's a direct result of her feeling her Heavenly Father's love
through the power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and His Atonement as well.
Thanks for being with us, Deb. Dave, thanks for doing this again. I cherish these moments. Love
you both so much. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us for another podcast. We hope
you feel God's love for you. We hope, and it's important to us that you do know that you have
been redeemed through His blood. We look forward to being with you again. Thanks for being with us
today. Take care.