Hey there everybody, welcome out to another episode of He Redeems Through His Blood.
My name is Scott Durfey, I want to be the first to welcome you out.
Today I'm joined as always by Uncle Dave, say hi Dave.
Hi everybody, hope all is well.
A great episode that we have in store I hope, I think for this week.
We're going to be talking about and continuing a discussion that we started actually a couple,
well actually a couple of weeks ago.
You know this whole thing just kind of blends together.
Over the last few episodes we've talked about our identity, who we are, how important that
is.
That theme will continue with us probably throughout the absolute entirety of our podcast because
knowing who we are is just that important and is such a keystone to our understanding
of all of these things that we've talked about and are yet to still talk about in the podcast.
But we talked about a lot who we are.
And whose we are.
And whose we are, that's actually.
And identity is everything, identity determines eternity.
It's so critical Scott that we understand the good and the great about who we are, how
valiant and true and faithful we were.
It's also really important as we're going to discuss today about who we're not.
Yeah.
And all of our weakness and failings and the part of the plan that was for us to fail and
sin and the need we have for a Redeemer, I think that's just as critical.
And knowing Him is actually even more important than knowing who we are.
According to scripture, that's life eternal to know Him, Jesus Christ and our Heavenly
Father.
That's how we know who we are.
A hundred percent.
So we've moved into a little bit last week.
We began to talk about the fall of Adam and Eve and how that began to take place and how
that has effect on us as we're here in our moral existence.
So today let's just kind of outline a little bit, maybe give you something to anticipate
as we go through this.
And this suggestion to do this actually came from one of our listeners.
We want to thank him for giving that suggestion to maybe mention what we're going to talk
about each time.
And so we want to tell him thank you.
But also invite others through our email address, he redeems us at gmail.com.
Please if you have suggestions, we're just a couple of guys here that are trying to the
best way we can through the atonement of Jesus Christ and His power and share that.
We're just sinners again, trying to help other sinners.
We're not professionals here, but we're trying to do our best.
Perfectly imperfect.
Any suggestions you may have, please send those to us.
So for today we're going to be talking more about the effects of the fall, the fall of
Adam and Eve, how it affects us.
The negatives and the blessings.
How that shows up in our lives.
And we're going to be using some great examples from the Book of Mormon.
We have a great scripture from 1 Peter that is really going to help us.
We're going to talk about how God's plan actually includes temptation, our own.
We know that through Come Follow Me, we've been studying this year as part of our curriculum
the life of Jesus Christ and many actually visited the temptations of Christ over this
past week or so.
We're also going to talk about how God gives us weakness.
We shouldn't be surprised by that.
And we shouldn't take that as an indictment of our inadequacies or our ineptness in any
way.
He knew we would sin.
And then finally, Dave, and I think for our listeners, this will be something that will
be a great takeaway today as you're listening.
Listen for five blessings.
How we can obtain five key blessings from understanding the fall of Adam and Eve.
So Dave, that sets us up for where we're going.
Why don't you launch us?
Yeah.
And as we go through all of this, the temple endowment is such an important part of what
we're now talking about, Scott, and kind of today's discussion.
It's so critical that we keep in mind that the plan of salvation, the plan of redemption,
the great plan of happiness, whatever you want to call the plan of God, that there are
three pillars that there's the creation, the fall and the atonement.
And you know, when we participate in the temple endowment, that's what the whole endowment
is centered on.
We spend a good amount of time on the creation, the blessings of the creation.
We spend a lot of time—people, I think, are surprised by how much time we spend—on
the fall.
And we spend a lot of time on the atonement of Jesus Christ, which isn't kind of a—I
don't want to sound sacrilegious, but the atonement is not so evident in the endowment
because it's not part of the movie.
Creation in the fall, those are depicted through what we watch.
The atonement of Jesus Christ is so sacred that it's a little bit more disguised by
signs, tokens, veil, all of that stuff.
So anyway, we're kind of talking about the temple in ways that we sometimes don't fully
appreciate what we're doing when we participate in that ordinance.
I want to begin, though, Scott, by this quote, and it'll kind of maybe keep everything
together today as we talk about the fall.
This is from C.S. Lewis.
He wrote—and without the Book of Mormon, I'm not sure how he even came to this understanding.
I know Paul talks about the fall, but we're the only Christians in the world that really
understand the fall and the blessings that are associated with the fall.
Everybody else is still mad at Adam and Eve because we don't live in a pair of cycle
glory and they don't really understand that it wasn't a mistake that Adam and Eve fall.
It was part of their plan.
And part of their progress.
Yeah, absolutely.
That it was essential to God's plan.
But C.S. Lewis somehow got this.
I think he maybe got it from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul writes, as in, Adam all die,
and so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I think that's kind of the essence of what C.S. Lewis is trying to say here, but he wrote,
God is not merely mending, not simply restoring us to a status quo.
Unarmed humanity is to be something more glorious than unfallen humanity would have ever been.
I just love that.
He understands the essential part of God's plan that we fall.
So that's from C.S. Lewis' little book called Miracles, page 162.
So let's discuss for a minute, Scott, how that, why is that true?
That God is not merely mending, not simply restoring us to a status quo or a paradycycle
glory or it's not about going back into the Garden of Eden.
That's not what it's about.
That wasn't what God wanted us to do.
He didn't want us to stay there.
He continues, redeemed humanity is to be something more glorious than unfallen humanity would
have or could have ever been.
Yeah, big statement.
But there's a couple of components there that we do need to understand in order for us to
really grasp the weight, I think, of what C.S. Lewis is saying there, Dave.
He says redeemed humanity.
We just take sometimes for granted what redeemed means.
And I think it's worthy of discussion for just a second here.
What does that even mean, redeemed humanity?
Well, what I think of it means you've got a Redeemer and you can't redeem yourself.
You've been redeemed.
That means it's something that God has gifted me, that He has offered me, that He has made
available to me through His Son, our Redeemer.
And that that is greater, relying upon Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice and the relationship
and the blessings that come with that.
That's so much greater than if I would have lived in a pair of the cycle glory all of
my eternal life and never had a Redeemer.
Redeemed literally means purchased.
He purchased us.
Purchased, ransomed, covered, covered us.
He has absolutely purchased, ransomed, covered us.
And without that purchasing, if we would have remained in that pair of the cycle glory,
but if that was even possible, that we could have had children there, which obviously,
you know, we know that.
But even if it were possible, that would have, we would have just been there.
There wasn't, there's no redemption in there.
And I think that that's important for us to understand is to understand that we have been
purchased, that we have been covered through.
Whether we repent or not, Scott, in, I mean, I know that there are conditions in our redemption,
but there are so many parts of our redemption that are unconditional that we have been,
I mean, Jesus suffered for us, whether we repent of it or not, whether we recognize
it or not.
He, He suffered for that little, that little boy or that little girl or that, that man
or woman in India that has, knows nothing about Him.
Jesus is their Redeemer too.
That's correct.
And they know nothing about that.
And they will be resurrected and they will have all of the blessings that come from that
part of the atonement of Jesus Christ as well.
And they currently enjoy so many blessings because of His redemption that they would
not have enjoyed otherwise.
So I think that the fact that we're redeemed, the fact that we have a Redeemer is just so
much greater than to have lived in a pair of cycle glory on our own, totally independent
of the Son of God or the need for an atoning sacrifice.
I don't know.
I hope our listeners can just kind of ponder that for a minute and understand the gratitude
that we should all feel for God's plan.
And maybe that is a good place to jump into this scripture.
In Peter, I was reading the other day, in Peter chapter 4, 1 Peter chapter 4, and I
think this is what Peter is trying to say, Scott.
I think it's what Eve exclaimed when they fell, which is now quoted in the Temple Endowment
from Moses chapter 5, verse 11.
But I love these words as I read them the other day.
And I see, when I read this, I see temple in this.
I think the first verse that we're going to read talks about the fall.
And the second verse we're going to read talks about, of course, the atonement and redemption
of Christ.
This is 1 Peter chapter 4, verse 12, Behold, beloved, think it not strange concerning the
fiery trial, which is to try you, and a better translation may be to tempt you.
Think it not strange concerning the fiery trial, which is to tempt you, as though some
strange thing had happened unto you.
In other words, I think Peter's saying, we should be surprised that things are rough,
that things are hard here.
That was all part of the plan.
You shouldn't be surprised by the fact that you're tempted.
That's part of the plan.
Jesus was tempted.
We're all tempted.
It doesn't matter who you are or how great you are or how righteous you think you may
be.
You shouldn't be surprised by the trials, adversities, and temptations that we all experience
in this life.
It's all part of the fall of mankind.
And then he says in verse 13, But rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings,
that when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Scott, we wouldn't have had that exceeding joy or that level of gladness had it not been
for the fall of Adam and Eve and the fall of you and me and the atonement and redemption
of Jesus Christ.
So again, C.S. Lewis's quote here in the words of Peter, and you can see temple in that passage,
I hope.
Part of that in 13 where it says, Ye are partakers of Christ's suffering.
What does that mean, Dave?
Man, that's almost painful to think about, but it causes me such humility and gratitude
that not only did we kind of enjoy the blessings from his sufferings, but that we, because of
our sins and because of the fall, that we have contributed to his sufferings.
We're partakers of his sufferings because we contributed to his sufferings, but we also
receive all of the blessings that flow out of his sufferings, which we've talked about,
the redemptive enabling compensatory powers that come out of that, and we're partakers
of it.
I think of the sacrament.
I think every Sunday I'm a partaker.
I take the piece of bread, his flesh, and I drink the little cup of his blood, and I'm
literally being a partaker as he invited us to be.
That's where I go with it.
I think that for me, when it talks about partakers of Christ's suffering, that I am a partaker
every Sunday of Christ's suffering, and if I'm doing that with a I single to his glory,
and I've prepared myself and all of those things, that I do become a partaker of his
suffering, I recognize it in my life, and then after the semicolon there, it says that
when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
I feel that I may be glad also with exceeding joy almost every Sunday as I'm participating
in the partaking of his suffering there, David.
So we are so blessed as a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to understand
the restored doctrine and truth of the fall of Adam and Eve and the fall of all mankind.
And it's pretty clear how the Book of Mormon prophets understood this completely, absolutely.
I think so many times, Scott, I think it's easy for us to miss the doctrine of the fall
and the importance of it in our lives, and for some reason, as we kind of talked about
last time, it's not taught very much in the church, really.
I mean, it has been, it is, the Scriptures talk about it, but I don't know, we don't
like to dwell on it.
We don't like to think of ourselves as fallen.
We don't like to think of ourselves as sinners who just keep on trying.
We don't like to think of ourselves as sinners helping sinners.
We don't like to think of ourselves as that, and yet that's the reality.
And the Book of Mormon prophets certainly didn't shy from it.
So I'd like to have us go, if our listeners are able, to these maybe just a few verses
of Scripture first, and then we'll look at some examples.
So Scott, if you want to, we'll just do a few of these.
I have a long list, but let's just go to a couple.
The first place it's taught in the Book of Mormon is 1 Nephi, Scott, chapter 10, verses
5 through 6.
And Lehi is teaching here, really.
Nephi is quoting his dad, and Lehi understood the fall and the redemption of mankind.
So verses 5 and 6 of chapter 10.
And he also spake concerning the prophets how great a number had testified of these
things concerning this Messiah, of whom he had spoken, or this Redeemer of the world.
Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and fallen state, and ever would be, save they
should rely on this Redeemer.
Isn't that awesome?
Yeah.
Lehi understood that we all had to rely on a Redeemer, and the joy of doing so, the blessing
and joy.
Let's go to Benedi, teaches it powerfully to King Noah and his court, and I'm sure they
probably hated this, but Mosiah chapter 16, verses 3 and 4, Scott, if you want to go there.
Mosiah 16, verses 3 and 4, Benedi.
For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them, yea, even that
old serpent that did beguile our first parents.
Which was the cause of their fall?
Which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from
good, subjecting themselves to the devil?
Thus all mankind were lost, and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not
that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.
But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature and goes on in the ways
of sin and rebellion against God remaineth in his fallen state, and the devil hath all
power over him.
Therefore, this as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God, and also is the
devil an enemy to God.
And now verse 6, and now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to
come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.
And if Christ had not risen from the dead or have broken the bands of death, that the
grave should have no victory and that death should have no sting, there could have been
no resurrection.
Yeah, well, isn't that great?
That's pure doctrine taught by Abinadi.
I love Abinadi.
In fact, we named one of our little boys, one of our stillborn children who died.
I love Abinadi so much I gave that little boy the middle name of Abinadi.
I think he's one of my favorite prophets.
I mean, he just really tells them the way it is.
And it's just so clear in this chapter 16, I think it's one of the great chapters on
the fall and the atonement of Christ, that, wow, we are so dependent upon redemption and
upon a Redeemer.
And he alludes to the negative effects.
I think we'll get into this in a little more detail when we talk about what the atonement
of Jesus Christ covers, but the negative effects of the atonement of Adam and Eve, the real
effects, negative effects, I think there are some positive effects for sure of the fall,
but the two major negatives, and there are many minor negatives, but the two major negatives,
of course, are spiritual death and physical death.
In other words, because of the fall, we are cut off from righteousness or we're cut off
from God and we will die.
There will be a separation of our body and our spirit.
And so death is spiritual and physical are the major negatives.
And the atonement of Jesus Christ, we'll talk more about this, so don't sit on the edge
of your chairs too long for an answer to this, but I'd like to wait until the next podcast
or two to answer how Christ's atonement totally, unconditionally, unconditionally covered those
two deaths, spiritual and physical.
Physical people understand because we're all going to be resurrected, even the wicked,
even sons of perdition.
It's universal, unconditional.
All will be resurrected.
People don't understand as well how Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice overcomes spiritual
death and how because of his atoning sacrifice that we will all, after we are resurrected,
return to the presence of God to be judged.
No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, but we will return all, including
sons of perdition, to the presence of God to be judged.
And then there's so many other aspects of the fall that the atonement of Jesus Christ
covers, which we'll talk about when we talk in our podcast about the atoning sacrifice.
The point is that the Book of Mormon really restores the true doctrine of the universal
fall of all mankind and the blessings that are associated with it because it made us
dependent upon a Redeemer.
Let's look at some specific examples now of that by going to, I think this is such a powerful
example in prayer of the brother of Jared.
So let's go to Ether chapter 3, Scott.
This is a, you know, he has built some barges and he's wanted to get some air in those barges
and some light.
And God has given him some direction and also invited the brother of Jared to come up with
a plan on how to get light, and he prepares those 16 molten stones and he takes them to
a mountain and he asks Jesus to touch them.
But as he begins this prayer, asking God to touch these stones, look at verse 2, and as
we read verse 2, Scott, let's just really ponder, does the brother of Jared really mean
what he's saying?
I mean, he's talking to God, does he really mean this?
Chapter 3 verse 2 of Ether.
O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods.
Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before
thee.
For we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before
thee because of the fall our natures have become evil continually.
Nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that
from thee we may receive according to our desires.
What strikes you in that verse, Scott?
Well, first off, he's acknowledging here, and I think that we can probably all do this,
that we know that because of the fall, these weaknesses that we have are big.
But heavenly father, and this is what the brother of Jared is saying here, but you've
commanded us to pray to you and ask for the things that we need.
So even though that we're unworthy before thee and have become evil continually, nevertheless,
O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we
may receive according to our desires.
So obviously our heavenly father loves us still, even though because of this, we've
had this fall and we've had life now become part of our lives, so to speak.
And you know, the brother of Jared's acknowledging, hey, I know I'm fallen, but you've given me
a commandment, then you've given me a commandment that I can ask for things that will bring
us joy or whatever we need.
And that's exactly what he's doing.
He says, according to our desires.
Well, Scott, I think this is so precious that we have a prayer offered by a prophet of God
who would soon after this prayer see Jesus in his pre-mortal state and that we have the
actual words.
I'm just so grateful that the brother of Jared somehow wrote this down and that Moroni translated
this from the plates and that we have this.
So I love this verse and it just strikes me how he is crying out to God, acknowledging
his weakness, which I think Moroni picks up on that actually, and in his commentary later
in the book of Ether, chapter 12, verse 27, Moroni says, And if men come unto me, I will
show unto them their weakness.
I give unto men weakness, that they may be humble.
You know, that weakness is the fall.
It's not a bunch of weaknesses or imperfections we have.
It's just God gives unto us weakness or a fallen, we're placed in a fallen state.
I think that's what the brother of Jared is saying and I think that's what Moroni means.
Anyway, and then the brother of Jared, don't, please God, please, please don't be angry
because we're unworthy.
You know, and he knows it's part of the plan too.
Right.
But because of the fall, he's acknowledging, I mean, this is one of the great prayers because
he's acknowledging his fallen state, which we should all do more often in our prayers.
Because of the fall, our natures have become evil continually.
You think he really, is he serious that he believes that because of the fall, that his
nature is evil continually, Scott?
Do you think that's true?
I think we're dealing with semantics here.
I think that, yeah, I think by nature we're all evil because of the fall.
We are all evil.
We're subjected to temptation, we're subjected to the accuser, and many times we listen to
the accuser and all of that.
And that is all because of that.
However, that's why we have the atonement of Jesus Christ.
And that's where we come into being redeemed by him and through him and because of his
atonement wherein he perches us, that gives us the opportunity to kind of negate the effects
of the fall.
Not maybe today, but through eternity, right?
Right.
So let's be clear, Scott, let's not be confused by what St. Augustine taught and what the
Catholic Church proposed, that man is totally deprived, that we don't believe in the total
depravity of man.
Okay?
We don't believe in that.
We know that we are fallen, and that's because of the fall.
We are in a natural evil state.
We get that.
In fact, President Brigham Young said, the spirits that live in these tabernacles were
as pure as the heavens when they entered them.
They came to tabernacles that are contaminated, pertaining to the flesh by the fall of man.
The Psalmist says, quoting Psalm 51.5, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my
mother conceive me.
The scripture has established in the minds of some the doctrine of total depravity, that
it is impossible for them to have one good thought, that they are altogether sinful,
that there is no good, no soundness, no spiritual health in them.
Well, this is not correct, yet we have a warfare within us.
And I don't think that ever goes away.
He says that in another quote.
We're never quite ever totally free of it.
We have to contend against evil passions daily, or the seeds of iniquity that are sown into
the flesh through the fall.
Maybe we are evil continually, the way we're, again, we know that we are sons and daughters
of God.
Brigham Young also said, in our, this is, I'm sorry, Elder Bednar, in mortality we are
all tempted by the flesh.
The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen, and ever,
ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death.
But we can increase our capacity to overcome the desires of the flesh and temptations through
the atonement of Christ.
When we make mistakes as we transgress in sin, we can repent, then become clean through
the redeeming power of Jesus Christ.
This is kind of my conclusion to this.
Because we live in a fallen, telestial world, Scott, it is irrational and irresponsible
to expect any human to live a sinless life, including myself and yourself.
Wickedness never was happiness!
However, unhappiness, and I think this is so true for, I see this in my own family from
time to time, Scott, and so true for members of the church, I think.
So let me start this paragraph over.
Wickedness never was happiness.
Got it.
However, unhappiness may sometimes be the result of not understanding our fallen nature,
which may produce unrealistic expectations of righteousness.
I mean, it's just wrong to expect that we're going to be righteous all day, every day,
and not sin every day, and make mistakes every day, and feel the pull and the weakness of
the flesh every day.
And that's not necessarily who I am.
We talked about that last week.
You know, our identity is not necessarily our tendencies or our propensities.
That's the result of the fall.
Not necessarily who I truly am.
And I think that there's so much unhappiness and almost sadness and depression in the church
because we're so imperfect.
Well, that was all part of the plan.
I thought this week, if I were to write a book this week, every week I think, if I wrote
a book this week I would title it, what would be the title?
Well, this week I thought, if I wrote a book this week, it would be titled, God's Plan
Was That We Would Sin and Be Saved.
People are, we have spiritual masochists in this church, Scott, because they will not
understand and actually appreciate their fallen nature.
Steven Robinson wrote years ago in the little book, which I love, Following Christ, I know
people in the church who beat themselves up for having fallen natures, who take it as
a sign that they are not worthy of the kingdom.
For these spiritual masochists, it isn't even enough to control their carnal nature or to
begin diminishing its influence by developing habitual obedience to God.
They don't even want to have a carnal nature, which was all part of God's plan.
Their mortality, resisting the urges of our carnal thoughts and putting them out of our
minds is a reasonable goal, but not ever having a carnal thought is an unreasonable goal.
So I just, anyway, I think that's what the brother of Jared is acknowledging, that don't
be angry with thy servant because of the fall, my nature is evil continually.
Yeah.
We should embrace that truth and it should lead us immediately to a need for a higher
power, Jesus Christ in His atonement.
This is a big subject and it really has actually a lot of breadth to it too, it's quite broad.
We talk about the fall of Adam and Eve and you've made mention that there are two main
effects that come from that.
We suffer a spiritual death, which means a separation of our spirit and our heavenly
Father spirit and then we, because of the fall, also eventually suffer a physical death.
And Dave, I think that if I look at all the things that are in my life and all the things
that I get to be a part of in other people's lives as I trudge the happy road to destiny
with others in recovery groups, et cetera, that we really see the fall show up in all
parts of our life that are troubling to us.
And because that's the case, we ought to maybe cut ourselves a little slack.
We're never free from it.
We ought to cut ourselves a little slack.
For example, if somebody's dealing with some sort of organic depression or mental illness
or various things that can, that's part of the fall.
Difficult sometimes maybe to embrace the challenges that come from that, but to know that, hey,
this was part of Heavenly Father's plan and He has not just created this part of the plan,
but He's also created and because of Him, provided for us a Savior, a Redeemer to pay
even the price for this, that eventually all of this will work for our good, that all of
this will glorify Him when He returns and we get to experience that resurrection.
And then the spiritual things that we deal with and suffer.
And we talk about this and we'll probably even talk about it a little bit more tonight
in the Institute Class at Devon.
I'll be teaching at BYU tonight.
This has been a topic that's quite interesting because all of our trials, all of our trials
in life can be, I believe, categorized in one or the other and sometimes a combination
of both the spiritual and the physical death.
When I'm dealing with trials in my life, if I'm able to just kind of step back and take
a look at where those two things may be playing into it, then it's a lot easier for me to
attach the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ to those and get some relief.
Even if that relief doesn't come immediately, the hope, even hope can provide a sense of
relief to the soul that is just super soothing.
And that can also be something that we get to participate in once we grasp a knowledge
of the fall of Adam and Eve and how this is actually part of heavenly, this actually was
Heavenly Father's plan.
Yeah, definitely.
And it can be actually quite, I think, liberating and strengthening when we acknowledge our
worthiness before God at all times.
We talk so much about the desires that we have to be righteous, but the fact is that
we are continually and always unworthy before Him, Scott.
I read this cute little story, which I had forgotten about, but I read it recently.
Elder Renlund shared it at a general conference about this missionary whose first name was
Curtis, and he just went on a mission for all the right reasons and was so diligent
and faithful and the kind of missionary that every mission president would pray for, Elder
Renlund says.
And he was given a missionary companion soon into his mission who was just really troubled,
totally unenthusiastic about doing any work and quite rebellious and didn't know why he
was there and no motivation.
Anyway, they're riding down the street one day on their bikes and Curtis turns around
and looks kind of over his shoulder to see his companion and his companion's not there.
And he gets off his bike and he sees his companion about two or three blocks back walking, gotten
off his bike and just started to walk.
And Curtis, it was just kind of the straw that broke the camel's back, I think.
And he was so frustrated and in a little silent prayer, he was expressing his frustration
to his Heavenly Father.
Then he said that in that quiet moment, he had this strong impression.
Curtis, he heard a voice come to his mind.
You know, compared to me, the two of you aren't all that different.
Yeah, that's a great story.
Kind of just puts it all, rips us all right back into perspective, doesn't it?
We all need the atonement of Jesus Christ.
We're all fallen, we're all lost.
Compared to God, there's not a lot of difference.
Anyway, I think that's humbling to think about.
And you know, Alma, this is to his good son, Shiblin, in Alma chapter 38.
In Alma chapter 38, he's talking to Shiblin.
This is the good boy, right?
And there's only one chapter for Shiblin because he's such a good kid.
I mean, it seems like the troubled ones get most of the verses of Scripture, like Corianton
does, Alma's son, who committed fornication on his mission and gets three great doctrinal
chapters, but Shiblin only gets one chapter here.
And then, and then it's kind of sweet, you know, here's this righteous son.
And listen to what Alma tells him in verse 14.
Maybe I'll read it.
Shiblin, Alma speaking to his son, do not say, oh God, I thank thee that we are better
than our brethren, but rather say, oh Lord, forgive my unworthiness and remember my brethren
in mercy.
Yea, acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times.
Wow.
What great counsel from a prophet of God to his good son.
Right.
I mean, Healman was another good son he had, but this is to the good boy, Shiblin, the
kind of the Shiblin syndrome, you know, the good kid doesn't seem to get as much attention.
And yet, what's the one thing in this short chapter that Alma wants Shiblin to know?
Hey, you're not as good.
You're not as good as you think you are.
Remember your unworthiness before God at all times.
I hesitate to say this, but every once in a while, and we just had Fast Sunday and it
did not happen in my ward this Sunday, I'm saying that for the record.
But you know, sometimes Dave, I hear a testimony and I know we don't mean it, but I think we
need to be careful about it because I hear sometimes people say, express the gratitude
that I'm so glad that we are the ones.
Chosen.
The ones.
The one and only.
Yeah.
And you know, and I appreciate it.
I think that's great.
It's a great doctrine.
It is.
And I think we need to embrace it, but I think we need to maybe heed some counsel.
Every time we say it though, we should remember our unworthiness.
And if we remember our own unworthiness, maybe we're just not as apt to say it as quickly
too.
Yeah.
Well, think about, let's turn to the example of Nephi.
You know, this great son of Lehi and Saraiah who, I love it.
Verse one of chapter one where he knows he's favored by God.
And you know, there's some truth to that for sure.
But later on when his dad dies and his brothers are kind of going to hell and he has to separate
himself from his brother to save his own family and things aren't going well.
I think, I think Nephi teaches us how all prophets and people should feel that we're
all fallen and we're all lost.
I mean, listen to these words of, of Nephi in second Nephi chapter four, verse 17.
Nevertheless, not withstanding the great goodness of the Lord in showing me his great and marvelous
works.
And that would surely include the atonement of Jesus Christ.
My heart exclaimeth, oh wretched man that I am.
Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh and my soul grieve it because of mine iniquities.
I am encompassed about because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
Wow, Scott.
This is Nephi.
Yeah.
A living born of goodly parents and highly favored of God.
This is that guy, David.
Temptation and sins easily beset him.
Oh wretched man, is he serious?
Does he feel wretched?
I think he must.
It's in the scriptures, right?
I, I, which, which, you know, if that's hard for us to understand, and I think it might
be, I think it might be difficult for some of us to wrap our minds around that concept
of Nephi, oh wretched man, Nephi.
Well, by comparison, and we've got to stop living by comparison.
Comparison's the thief of joy, right?
Right.
But, but, but, you know, by comparison, how would we feel?
I mean, here, here we know, we know Nephi's righteousness.
We've seen it, just in the, in the few short chapters that we've had in the book so far,
you know, we know of his righteousness, but he's calling himself oh wretched man.
And not only that, but he's confess, confessing in a way that, hey, I have struggles too, you
know, my heart sorrowed because of the, because of my flesh.
Maybe me, Scott, compared to God, there's not that much difference between Laman and
Nephi.
Yeah.
But I, I, I know he's serious and I know the prophets feel this way from time to time,
but we are all, because of the fall, we are beset continually by temptation and sin.
So was Jesus, Jesus was continually beset by temptation, but never gave heed to them.
Right.
We'll talk about the temptations of Jesus and, and the power which, which he was able
to live a sinless life and the importance of that when it comes to the atonement of
Jesus Christ, which is, I think one of the greatest aspects of the atonement of Jesus
Christ, that Jesus could actually pull that off and live a sinless life when he was continually
being tempted, not just in the wilderness for 40 days, but, or after those 40 days that
he went to the wilderness, but that he was continually tempted.
Well.
Never gave heed.
I think that Nephi gives us the answer.
And this is for sure.
Verse 19.
Yeah.
This is the answer, not just for Nephi, but for all of us.
Right.
So here again, here again's the temple.
He brings up the fall and then he hears the atonement verse 19.
And when I desire to rejoice, my heart growneth because of my sins.
Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
Keep reading.
My God has been my support.
He has led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness and he has preserved me upon
the waters of the great deep.
He has filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
He has confounded my enemies unto causing of them to quake before me.
What a beautiful testimony, right?
Yeah.
The testimony of a prophet right there.
And he takes care of it.
He encompasses the entirety of the temple drama.
Yeah.
Like you just said, right?
It is.
Yeah.
It is.
And I guess maybe a final, one final example from the Book of Mormon that just astounds
me really, Scott, is the experience of King Benjamin's people after being born again,
forgiven of their sins, received this incredible miraculous cleansing and healing and their
conscience.
Let's turn to Mosiah chapter 4 and just maybe read verse 2 through 3, Scott.
I mean, just to appreciate this spiritual miracle and experience that these individuals
had had because of their repentance as a result of King Benjamin's address.
Maybe I'll read verses 2 and 3.
And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the
earth.
And they all cried aloud with one voice saying, Oh, have mercy and apply the atoning blood
of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts may be purified.
For we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth and all
things who shall come down among the children of men.
Well, there's two aspects of the temple right there.
He talks about they're grateful for the creation.
They're grateful for the fall.
This address was given at the temple.
It's just interesting how much maybe we don't have recorded in here about what they understood
about the temple and the endowment.
But look at verse 3.
And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words, the Spirit of the Lord came upon
them and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins and having
peace of conscience because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ and His
atonement who should come according to the words which King Benjamin had spoken unto
them.
Well, OK, so they have this amazing spiritual experience and they are rejoicing and no doubt
King Benjamin's rejoicing with them.
But look at what he tells them in verse five.
If you want to read that one, Scott.
So King Benjamin, after he hears them, then he opens his mouth and he begins to speak
in them and he says in verse five, For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness
of God, and we could say the goodness of God is really the sacrifice of His son.
Right.
So, for behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God or the sacrifice of His son at this
time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness and your worthless and fallen state.
Isn't that interesting that he says and his whole discourse is pretty much on the atonement
of Jesus Christ and he says, if that has awakened you.
So how do we how do we really come to understand and appreciate our fallen natures and the
doctrine of the fall?
Maybe King Benjamin is teaching us here that to really appreciate our fallen wretchedness
that we need to understand and appreciate more the goodness of God and the atonement
of Jesus Christ.
And then look at verse eleven if you want to read verse eleven, Scott.
And again, I say unto you, as I have said before, that as she come to the knowledge
of the glory of God, or if you have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love
and have received a remission of your sins, which causes such exceeding great joy in your
souls, even so I would that you should remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness
of God and your own nothingness and His goodness and long suffering towards you, unworthy creatures
and humble yourselves even to the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord
daily and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken
by the mouth of the angel.
Wow.
So these people who have just been born again through their exceeding faith in Christ have
been forgiven of their sins.
And what does he tell them?
You better remember your nothingness, you unworthy creatures.
Isn't that amazing?
Yep.
Oh man, King Benjamin, what a prophet that he's not going to glory too long in their
born again righteousness without reminding them of their fallen nature and state.
And that they are continually unworthy before the Lord, especially compared to the goodness
and sacrifice of God.
But he didn't tell them that because of your fallen nature and because of your fallen state
that you're hopeless.
Yeah, no.
Quite the opposite, right?
Yeah, he almost, I don't know if I would use the word normalizes it here, but it is something
that they are made aware of, that they accept, and that even though whatever experiences
they've been through, and we know they've been through some very miraculous experiences
during this period of time, that even though all of that, we do need to remember that without
him we really are nothing.
Yeah.
Well, let us, I'd like to maybe share what I consider to be the five blessings of understanding
the doctrine of the fall.
But as we move into this, let us remember what we started this podcast with, that inspired
statement by C.S. Lewis, redeemed humanity is greater, more glorious than unfallen humanity
could have ever been.
So going back to President Boyd K. Packer's great quote, the true doctrine understood
changes attitudes and behavior.
I would like us to consider how understanding the true doctrine of the fall can change our
lives.
And I've tried to summarize this in five ways that understanding the fall can change us.
Number one, understanding the fall will change us by empowering us with hope, knowing that
we are not as bad or wicked as we thought we were by realizing that our carnal nature
and sensual urges are part of being human, of the flesh, and not who we really are, of
the spirit.
If we understand the fall, we would never allow our sins, failures, temptations, weaknesses,
natural inclinations, tendencies, or propensities to progress from our feelings and actions
to our identity.
We would never associate our identity with the type of intensity of temptation we experience.
That's the first blessing of understanding the fall.
Second, understanding the fall will change us by encouraging us to rely more upon Jesus
Christ and His Atonement than the arm of the flesh.
Knowing the consequences of the fall, our fatal state and helpless condition, should
help us feel greater humility and a desire to develop and strengthen our faith in Jesus
Christ, in the name of Christ, and the plan of redemption.
We will love Him more.
We will trust Him more.
We will be more grateful for Him and His Atonement.
Number three, understanding the fall will change us by strengthening our resolve to
never give up or give in, but to endure to the end, realizing that spiritual growth and
progression in mortality is a process, lifetime process, not an event.
Knowing that we will never be completely from sin in this life should help us to fight the
battle of life daily, with courage, and provide the motivation to not quit.
Pity is not for wimps.
Once we acknowledge, we shouldn't be surprised, as Peter put it, by this fiery trial.
Once we acknowledge, internalize, and accept that truth, that life is difficult, full of
opposition and sin, we will be better prepared to deal with it.
We will more proactively strive to make repentance and the Atonement an essential part of our
daily life, as my sweetheart Chris put it.
When I understood the doctrine of the fall, I felt worthy enough to ask for God's help
and forgiveness.
Number four, understanding the fall will change us by helping us appreciate what a grand opportunity
mortality is to develop and strengthen our divine spirit, self, in ways not possible
in the pre-mortal existence, or even in a paradycyclical glory.
With bodies of flesh and blood, we learn to control the natural urges and carnal tendencies
of being human, and we learn to discipline and restrain ourselves through the enabling
power of Christ's Atonement.
Without opposition, there would never be any progression.
Number five, understanding the fall will change us by increasing our ability to prize the
good and savor the sweet because of encountering the bad and tasting the bitter.
The pain, struggles, and sorrows of mortality enlarge our capacity to experience joy in
this life and receive a fullness of joy when we are resurrected.
Well, so I think those are some of the great lessons and truths, blessings that we can
receive in our lives, Scott, when we really come to understand the doctrine, the true
doctrine, the restored doctrine of the fall of Adam and Eve, and you and me, and all mankind.
I'm able to share this with you today and hope and pray that all of us will give thanks
to God for the fall and our mortal weakness, which He gave us.
I give unto men weakness, that they may be humble, and my grace is sufficient for all
men that humble themselves before me, He said.
For if men will humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak
things become strong unto them.
Ether 1227.
In another week or two, we'll be getting into the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ
and the events of the atonement of Jesus Christ and all of that that really matters, but to
have this understanding of the fall was not a surprise to Heavenly Father, the atonement
of Jesus Christ was not His backup plan.
This was the plan from the very beginning, and now we can see blessings.
David just went through five really important blessings of the fall for us, and I think
many, maybe most, perhaps all of us could even expand on that and provide deeper color,
more intimate to our own lives, to our own experiences, and maybe that would be our invitation
this week.
Let's explore those five blessings that David just went over as part of the blessings that
come or are fruit of the fall, and let's explore those in maybe a more intimate sense in our
own lives, maybe taking even a deeper inventory of how are we seeing ourselves and how are
we sometimes getting our identity confused because we identify with the fall of Adam
and Eve instead of the solution to the fall or the second part of the plan, which was
the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I know that in recovery these things can be so important in all parts of our lives.
Those of us who deal with anything that seems to be a struggle in our lives, if we can understand
it, it is not the struggle that defines us.
It's not even how necessarily because of our own inadequacies and because of our own, I
would even say sometimes ineptness.
We don't identify with that.
We identify with, and this is the second step in a recovery program, came to believe that
a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
That power is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and it is through Him and by Him that the
effects of the fall become strengths unto us, and they do that as we recognize our own
redemption.
I look forward to being again next week.
I hope that your weeks go well.
Hope that you remember all of these things that are so important to us.
Remember who you are.
Remember that you have been redeemed through His blood, and that makes you His.
Thanks for being with us.
I look forward to being together next week.