Hello there everybody and welcome out to another podcast of redeemed through his blood.
My name is Scott Durfey joined again as always by David Durfey, my uncle here.
Say hi Dave.
Hi Dave, good to be here Scott with you and talk about some important things today.
Yeah, I'm excited about it too.
Beautiful day here on the Wasatch front, just a tad bit cold, but you know that's how it
goes in January.
I just got back David from a weekend in Atlanta.
I know you're headed to Orlando in a few days, but you know the cool thing is when I was
in Atlanta I was on a business trip and was able to actually have a conversation with
a couple of non-member folks about the podcast and about the atonement and what a sweet experience.
I think all of Heavenly Father's children just have a natural propensity to hopefully
search and belong and feel his presence.
Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many, well the kind of people or who if we could
see Scott, those who are listening to the podcast, I think you track all this that we
have people in how many countries.
Yeah, 40 to 45 countries, it's kind of hard to count at this point.
Who have listened or who are listening.
And it would be so fun to get a glimpse of those individuals and who they are and maybe
we should have a conference sometime.
Have a reunion.
I guess it can't really.
We won't do that, but it would just be fun to meet people that are listening to it like
that.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
It would be fun.
It would be fun to just kind of get together somewhere, do a little workshop.
Yeah.
We've had a couple of really great episodes over the last couple of releases, over the
last couple of weeks in talking about our identity.
We've talked about how our identity determines our eternity.
We talk about how important it is that we really see ourselves for who we are.
We understand based on a quote from Joseph Smith that was given in the King Follett discourse,
we made reference to that at least I think either the last episode or maybe the episode
even prior to that, where we just know we can't really understand the character of ourselves
if we don't understand the character of God or have a true understanding of ourselves
if we don't understand Him and all of His attributes and characteristics.
And I think that we've talked quite a little bit about that.
We still have some to go.
Great story last week by the way of that young lady who received her patriarchal blessing
and was revealed to her that she was actually one of Heavenly Father's favorites.
I love that story.
That was life changing for her and just as much of a life changing experience for me
Scott to be able to get a glimpse.
There is no doubt in my mind that we existed before this world was ever created, not just
before we were born, but we existed before the world was created.
And we knew about the creation and we knew who was involved in that creation, that it
was Jesus Christ and it would be Michael who were delegated the power of creation by the
Father and we mingled and we were taught our first lessons in the pre-mortal existence
concerning the plan of redemption and we all loved the plan of redemption and we knew what
would be required and what was being asked and we were all willing to participate in
that until Satan who was in some authority, certainly I don't think he was as high up
as some people give him credit, but he broke out among the ranks in the rebellion and we
talked about that and the accuser of our brethren started to accuse us that we would never be
good enough, that it was too much risk, that Jesus might not have the strength or the power
or the will to do what he knew he needed to do in the pre-mortal existence which was to
come to the earth and to live a sinless life.
I don't think he was perfect until after he was resurrected and that's just semantics
between what perfect means and what sinless means, but he lived a sinless life.
I don't think Satan believed he could pull that off because of the character that Satan
was and that he would not go through with the suffering and the bleeding of every poor
and that he would, Satan believed Jesus would shrink because of his lack of faith in Jesus
Christ our elder brother and because of his desire to be the one who would save us and
because the father had chosen Jesus over him and because Satan I think had a propensity
to, because of his pride to be in charge or to be the one who would save us.
Then he comes up with this fake, I don't know how much he really believed in himself, but
he comes up with this fake idea, this apostate philosophy that, let's just go down there
and no risk, no risk, let's do your thing and whatever you want to do is fine, we won't
have covenants or commandments or ordinances and there won't be order, just do your thing
and enjoy life and I'll save you and I'll get the credit, I'll get the glory.
And for many of our brothers and sisters in the pre-mortal existence who believed that
their risk was maybe greater than they were willing to take, bought into that Scott.
And I think it's just really important that we try to better understand what was at stake
in the pre-mortal existence.
We understand our existence and what we knew and who we were and what we defended in the
pre-mortal existence and through every means possible, the scriptures, the teachings of
living, latter-day prophets and ancient prophets in the scriptures, that we really seek to
understand our pre-mortal existence because I believe Scott that if one can get a glimpse
of their pre-mortal existence and we'll share a story about that today, if you can get a
glimpse of your pre-moral existence, it changes your whole life here in mortality.
Yeah, it does.
I think of all the thousands and hundreds of thousands of people and actually millions
of people that have walked and are yet to walk the face of the earth and I think that
for some of us and I'm going to share a little something here in just a second that kind
of cooperates what I'm about to submit here, but I think that a lot of us, even though
we may not know, kind of feel a draw, a pull to something bigger, something more.
There's a poet, a pretty famous poet actually, William Wordsworth, who penned the lines and
I'm just going to read the first part of this poem.
There's two, I don't know what they're called, but there's two sections to it.
And this is what he says, he says, our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting.
The soul that rises with us, our life star, hath had elsewhere a setting and cometh from
afar.
Not in entire forgetfulness and not in utter nakedness, but trailing clouds of glory do
we come from God, who is our home.
I think that there's just a natural pull for some of us, David, to that belonging to Heavenly
Father from before we took breath in this life and as we begin to understand, as we
talk about the things that took place there, like we've done over the last couple of weeks,
the last couple of episodes and we'll continue to do so today, that as we see how the atonement
of Jesus Christ had its effect there and how the blood of Christ even began to redeem us
and enable us and to give us the strength and even to compensate for some of the buffeting
that we felt in what we call the war in heaven.
I don't know that it was hand to hand combat, we haven't talked about it, I mean, we've
mentioned that, but we call it the war in heaven.
But I believe that we filled that pole back to Him because that's our home.
Our home is where we began.
Well English poets like William Wordsworth and others, I think even most people, Scott,
feel in there the depths of their soul that they existed before this life.
I mean, that's been my experience throughout my life, I became acutely aware of that on
my mission, that you teach that principle, right, as a missionary.
That's right.
And people just accepted that, like they already believed it, and yet we're the only Christian
religion that teaches it.
There's no other religion that I'm aware of, Christian religion or church, that believes
that we existed in the premoral existence.
I mean, since Augustine and others in the early history of the Catholicism, it was ex
nihilo, that we were created out of nothing.
Well, I don't think anybody really, in the depths of their soul, believes that.
There must be, but the normal average person, and I think it's because of the light of Christ
and because of the seeds of the Spirit that whisper to us that there's more to this life
than just this life, that we existed before and that we will surely exist after.
And yet there's no other Christian church or religion that teaches about a premoral
existence.
And the Scriptures make it pretty clear, not just English poets, but even more important,
the authority of the Holy Scriptures, you know, whether it's Jeremiah, before I formed
thee in the belly I knew thee, whether it's Jesus himself, who's talking about the man
that he heals who is blind, and the apostles ask, well, who sinned before this life, this
man or his parents?
Jesus says nobody did that before, you know, this is not something that is the result of
his prior existence.
I mean, there's so many examples in the Scriptures about the foreknowledge of God and before
the foundation of the world.
There's so many examples in the Scriptures that I don't know really how people and other
religions have missed that truth.
The one that you just shared about the guy, well, the person that was born blind.
John chapter 9.
Who did sin first, his parents or before he was born.
Yeah.
It just speaks to them because they didn't explain it.
Right.
Right?
There was no teaching to that.
There was just an assumption, hey, everybody just knows this.
Yeah, yeah.
They knew that was true.
Yeah.
Yeah, there was no-
There was a prior existence before this life and they were asking a simple question because
that's what they already believed.
I mean, there's just so much evidence of that, but through the apostasy and the lost truths
and understandings and loss of authority and priesthood-
Well, and the intent to confuse us from the adversary and-
Oh, it's such an important doctrine for him to distort because if he can distort that
you followed Jesus in the pre-mortal existence, you're not nearly as apt to follow him here.
I've learned that throughout my life.
I have felt that.
I think all of us feel as though we were born for a purpose, that we were born to complete
a certain mission, that we were foreordained, important word in the scriptures and the teachings
of the prophets, that we've been all foreordained to accomplish certain things in this life.
And I hope that all of our listeners feel that and will identify that.
I don't think it has to be in your patriarchal blessing.
I think many patriarchal blessings include some sort of reference to a prior life or
pre-mortal existence, but mine didn't.
My blessing didn't.
And I know many other blessings don't.
Many of the prophets who had blessings, patriarchal blessings, you know, President Faust used
to talk about his patriarchal blessing and how it was two short paragraphs on a half
sheet of paper, I think.
And yet he said, it told me everything I needed to know.
But there are so many patriarchal blessings that don't necessarily describe pre-mortal
existence.
So if yours happens to not, you shouldn't be discouraged by that.
But you can get a vision of yourself in the pre-mortal existence as you ponder and as
you meditate and as you pray, because I think Heavenly Father would love us to get a glimpse
of who we really are, because it would strengthen us so much in this life.
And especially what He would love us to know, which He has taught in Revelation.
We read that scripture about how we overcame Satan, the great dragon in the war in heaven.
This is Revelation 12, 9 through 11, that we overcame Satan in the pre-mortal existence
through the blood of the Lamb, that it was because of our testimony of Jesus and our
willingness to even die for Him there.
That's all in Revelation 12 verse 11, that we overcame Satan there, and that's the way
we'll overcome him here.
And I learned this, I think, acutely from an experience I had with my son before I launched
into that story, Scott.
What are your thoughts about that?
It's important that we understand it, and that's probably all I want to say, that the
importance behind this grasping an understanding of what we're talking about here is so important,
because this is really foundationally, if we can start our foundation in our approach
to putting on the atonement of Jesus Christ, which is what this whole podcast is about,
and how we find relief from our mortal existence and our mortality through the power of the
atonement of Jesus Christ.
Foundationally, we do need to understand how it's affected ahead on us pre-mortally.
And so, I think that's enough, but I am really anxious to talk about this story that you
have.
And it really kind of illustrates in a great way what we're talking about.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
And before we maybe launch into that, let me get your thoughts on this scripture in
Alma chapter 13, Scott.
You know, this talks about the fact, the truth, that we were all prepared from before the
foundation of the world—I think this is an important part of the story—that we were
all prepared from before the foundation of the world to do here what we were willing
to do there to defend the plan of redemption and the mission of Jesus Christ as our Savior
and Redeemer.
And this is Alma in Alma chapter 13, verses 2 and 3.
And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son in a manner that thereby
the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.
And then this great verse 3 and maybe a little bit of verse 4.
And this is the manner after which they were ordained.
And we could say—we're not just talking maybe priesthood here—but we could say foreordained,
which would include men or women.
This is the manner after which they were foreordained, being called and prepared from before the
foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, who knows all things, on account of
their exceeding faith in good works in the first place.
And we could say, Scott, there, or in other words, in the first estate or our pre-moral
existence.
It's called the first estate in Abraham chapter 3.
So Alma's teaching that we were all foreordained and prepared from before the foundation of
the world based upon the foreknowledge of God.
He knew us so well.
He knew us there.
He knew how things would go here.
He sees the past.
He sees the present and the future all at once.
There is no past or really future to God.
He lives in an eternal now.
And because of his knowledge and because of our exceeding faith—exceeding faith, Scott—and
works in our first estate or in the first place, being left to choose good or evil—so
we could choose good or evil there, Scott.
There was good or evil in our pre-moral existence.
There was a war.
There would have been sin.
At least one-third committed the unpardonable, unforgivable sin.
Therefore, they having chosen good—this is in the pre-moral existence—and exercising
exceedingly great faith in the pre-moral existence, they are called with a holy calling.
Yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with and according to a preparatory redemption
for such.
Scott, I believe we've all been called.
Men, women, and children on this earth have been called to accomplish certain things,
been prepared by the Lord, and all according to our exceeding faith in good works and the
choices that we made in our pre-moral existence or in the first place or in our first estate.
Well, and then just the first sentence of verse 4, and thus they have been called to
this holy calling on account of their faith.
Exactly.
On account of their faith.
So we had faith there, too.
That we exercised.
And we had faith in what?
Did we have faith in Jesus?
Did we have faith in our Heavenly Father?
And we're not talking about faith that they existed at this point.
We're not talking about faith that they're real or that they love us or that their best
interest is for us.
We already know that at this point in our pre-moral life.
But what that faith is in is that faith is actually in the atonement of Jesus Christ
and the power of that to our redemption and to our returning home to Him by being made
holy through the blood of the Lamb that will be yet to still happen, which is yet to still
happen in that part of our existence, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Faith that we would succeed.
Yeah.
And return to our heavenly home.
And faith that He would do what He said.
Exactly.
The faith in Jesus Christ that He would live a sinless life, that He was willing to bleed
from every poor and do all that He was commanded to do.
I believe, David, that that faith, having that faith there, we probably weren't just
born with that faith.
I mean, there was probably some establishment of some experiences in a relationship that
was established there.
We can't just say, okay, I have faith, and that comes from nothing.
That faith had to come from a relationship with Him there, too.
So as important as our relationship is here, as important as our relationship is in eternity
with Him.
So our relationship with Him there was really quite solid, as is evidenced by our existence
here in mortality.
Well, in several weeks, we'll do another podcast just on faith and what faith is and what it's
based on.
But according to the lectures on faith, faith is knowing the character, attributes, and
perfections of God or of Jesus Christ.
When we would have known Him there, Scott, we could exercise great faith in Him because
we knew Him there.
We knew His character.
We knew His attributes.
We knew His perfections.
Well, and then it contrasts, though.
It says, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the heart.
Now, this is important because we need to understand that when we feel distance from
God, there can be a rejection there.
And if we understand what can prevent us from entering into that rejection, I think we have
a little bit of the recipe for that right here.
This is Alma 13-4.
While others, and it's, so I'll just start at the beginning.
And thus, they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith.
Okay, now this is the new part.
Well, not new, but this is the part that I'm adding now.
While others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts.
So what's the first thing that to kind of, you know, one of the things that we really
need to look for is the hardness of our hearts.
And that hardness of our hearts can come about by so many ways, usually neglect to the things
that are righteous and sacred.
But then, and it says, and blindness of their minds, while if it had not been for this,
the hardness of their heart and the blindness of their minds, and we can put that into so
many terms that are relevant today.
But had it not been for this, they might have been, they might have had as great a privilege
as their brother, meaning us.
Yeah.
Which is describing Satan and the one third that chose to follow him.
Right.
That they were deceived because, and this is true for Satan as well as it is for them,
it began from a hardness of heart and blindness of mind.
They couldn't see it.
They couldn't, they didn't have the eye of faith, Scott.
Yeah.
They didn't have the eye of faith and their hearts became hard because of their pride.
So many years ago this happened and I was grateful to participate in a small way in
this, but well, it's been quite a thing and it's affected me in many ways.
It still does as a patriarch.
When we lived in Minnesota, Scott, my second son, Devin, was just always such a great young
man, very loving, loved his family, loved his parents, loved the church, but we couldn't
quite get him all the way connected.
He just kind of held back a little bit on some things.
Temple trips, you know, to Chicago and they didn't this before we had a St. Paul temple,
but temple trips, he was reluctant to participate in that.
He was reluctant to sit at the sacrament table when he was a priest and he was just, he was
more into basketball than he was into the church.
I mean his identity, this was his identity, was he saw himself as a basketball player
and he was very successful at it.
And was captain of, this was a 6A power basketball league and team that he participated in in
the Lake Conference and he was the captain of his basketball team in point guard and
he was all conference and he got a lot of attention from it and he was successful.
And he went on and played a little college basketball and was captain of his college
basketball team and broke a record for most assists on his college basketball team.
Anyway, you know I was concerned about him, he had a non-member girlfriend from high school
who was, whose parents were actually anti-Mormon and I was just really concerned about, you
know, the future of my son and knew that if that relationship continued any further that
maybe I would have grandchildren who wouldn't be members of the church or be in the covenant
and that was a great concern to me so I was always praying, Chris and I, my wife and I
were always praying that please change Devin, please change Devin and one night I was somewhat
chastised, stop praying for me to change Devin, I learned a great lesson about prayer and
the importance of words in our prayers because one night praying again for God to change
Devin, the Spirit chastised me and said quit praying for Devin and start praying for you,
that you'll be a better dad for Devin.
So that changed kind of the course of my prayers and my behaviours towards him and so I started
to pray that I would be inspired to know how I could help him.
One day I was driving down I-35 in Minneapolis, Minnesota and I was prompted to call him.
Obviously he wouldn't answer my calls always, he was busy and probably knew he would get
another gospel lecture and would turn into that possibly and so he was somewhat reluctant
to do that and I called him and he picked up right away and I said hey Devin, I've been
thinking about you and thinking about maybe we need a change and what would you think
about maybe considering about moving out to Utah.
Mom and I, we've been asked to move out to Utah and we're going to go but how would you
feel about that and he said that he would.
He said that he would and that he needed a change.
He said I need a change and I just felt like I don't know what the events were in his life
at the time but what was going on or the specifics but I felt like he had been prepared for this
phone call.
And this is after, this happens after Scott.
One time when I picked him up from college and I was driving back to college, I was talking
to him about the church and the gospel and I said so son, do you go to church once in
a while?
And he said yeah dad, I go once in a while.
I don't know what that meant but yeah I go once in a while, little branch they had up
where his college team was in northern Minnesota and I said so son, are you still thinking
about a mission?
Because we talked a lot about that before he left home right?
And he said, this was kind of crushing for me, dad, I'm not ever going to go on a mission
again, I'm not a missionary and please don't talk to me anymore about that, don't use the
M word anymore around me.
That was really hard for me Scott but Chris and I still hadn't given up on that idea,
we still prayed that maybe that would be a possibility for him and on this particular
back to the conversation about moving out to Utah, he said dad, I think I'd like to,
I need a change, I need to make a change, I think I'd be willing to do that.
So we made arrangements right then and there, I know that was so timely and thankful for
the spirit prompting that phone call that I would drive him out to Utah, even before
we moved, this was like in June or May or June.
Did you want to get him out there before he changed his mind?
Yes.
I bet.
Like immediately, so I put everything off in my work and within a week or two I drove
him out to Utah, left him at my mother's house.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What a great place to be left.
And I got a flight home and he was in Utah and anyway, and then he met or was lined up
with the sweetest girl from Alpine and they started to date him and Brittany.
Wow, he really was impressed by her, loved her.
As well he should.
I know Brittany, I know her mom quite well and he should.
Yeah, you do, good friends, you went to school with her mother and I love her mother and
dad and all of her family and Devin did too early on.
They actually came back to Minnesota within a few months after him moving out here and
before we moved out to Utah from Minnesota.
So she spent a week in her home in Minnesota and I was so grateful and was hopeful that
that would work out and was also hopeful that Brittany would maybe be an influence on him
to help him go on a mission.
But anyway, we moved back to Utah in I think August and they came to us, Brittany and Devin,
in October after moving back a few months later.
So they've been dating for like four or five months and they say, dad, Devin, this Devin
talking to mom and me, we've decided that we're gonna be married sometime in the spring
and we wanted you to be the first to know.
And I said, oh, that's, congratulations, that's really great, really happy for you.
And I asked kind of while I held my breath, in the temple, and he said, dad, we're gonna
work towards that, we want that.
I said, that's awesome, son.
That's the bottom line, really, get married in the temple and that's awesome.
And then I felt impressed to say, Devin, will you just do me one favor?
Get your patriarchal blessing before you get married.
I've been trying to get you to do that since you were 16.
Will you please get your patriarchal blessing before you get married?
And he said, I'll think about it.
Now, I was not a patriarch at the time, this was before I was ever ordained a patriarch,
but I just felt impressed to tell him that.
And a few weeks later, I was driving home from work, I was teaching at the Institute
of Religion in Orem and UVU and Devin calls me on the phone about six o'clock at night.
Hey, dad, where does the patriarch in our stake live?
And I said, hey, son, you can't just show up, bud.
You gotta make an appointment before that, you have to see the bishop, you have to have
an interview, be worthy, get a recommend.
You know, it takes some preparation.
And he says, hey, dad, I've seen the bishop, I have a recommend, I have an appointment
at seven o'clock tonight, I've been fasting and praying all day.
Will you just tell me where he lives?
I was so grateful, but so surprised.
I said, oh, son, that's so great.
Mom and I are invited, right, I asked?
No, he said, if it's okay, I just want this to be between me and the patriarch.
I said, what about Brittany?
Is she gonna go?
Because I thought if she's gonna go, I'm gonna go.
And he said, no, she's not gonna go with me either.
But if it's okay, would it be okay if she came over to the house while I go get my blessing,
and then I'll come home and see you all after my blessing.
And I said, oh, yeah, absolutely, of course.
So Brittany came to our home, and Devin went to get his blessing, and we're sitting there
talking, and about an hour goes by, and Devin drives up, and Devin comes into our home after
receiving his blessing.
And I don't know why, but this left such an impression on me, and one of my favorite parts
of the whole story is he opens the door, and he looks kind of white.
He just has a different look about him.
I mean, he looks kind of flushed or nervous.
And he opens the door, and he won't let go of the doorknob.
He just opens the, swings the door open, and he's holding the doorknob, clutching the doorknob.
He's holding fast, and he won't let go, and he says, hey, Brittany, I have to talk to
you outside.
And she-
How is dad feeling right now?
Oh, man.
I thought, what?
I, you know, it was just abrupt like that.
She gets up and kind of shrugs, and we don't know how to, we're surprised, and she walks
out.
And I think, what is going on?
And I run upstairs to look out our bedroom window to see what's going on.
Like any good dad would.
Peeking through the blinds.
Yeah, that's right.
They're leaning against his car, and there's, I think they're crying, and I could see him
kind of pushing tears and wiping tears.
And anyway, so a while later, I go back downstairs, and a while later, they come back in the house.
Devin says, we're gonna go, we're gonna go, and I'll tell you about it tomorrow.
I go, oh, man.
So they left.
They left.
And my wife and I are sitting there thinking, oh, no, you know, we've been through a lot
with this sweet boy, this precious son, and wonder what's really going on, and we're kind
of worried.
But we didn't wait up, and I, well, I didn't sleep much, but he came home sometime a little
after midnight, and I made sure I got up early the next morning, and I was downstairs waiting
in the kitchen when he came up to go to work about 6 a.m.
I said, son, please, please, can you tell me what happened last night?
This is a boy who's been so great in so many ways, but I've never heard him bear his testimony,
Scott, even though I believed, I always believed he was born with a testimony, like I believe
most are.
Like we talked about last week, I think, actually.
Right, by the word of their testimony.
I always believed he had one, and I always knew there was a spiritual depth to him.
And yeah, I've never heard him bear his testimony, and I say, so, son, please, tell me, can you
tell me, please, what happened last night?
He kind of looks at me and he says, so, dad, I had a vision.
And I said, you what?
He said, I had a vision.
I got a glimpse of who I am.
And I said, what does that mean, son?
Explain, please.
And he said, well, when the patriarch laid his hands on my head, he mentioned my premortal
existence, and I saw myself in the premortal existence.
And I was, this is a quote, I think, I was very influential in helping people to follow
Jesus Christ and not follow Satan.
And I heard a voice, dad, this is all while the patriarch's giving him his blessing, and
I heard a voice, dad, and it said, if you did that there, you have to do it here.
And he looks at me and he stretches out his arms and he says, so, I gotta go on a mission,
and the engagement's off.
Well, it was miraculous.
It was amazing, Scott.
Once he got a glimpse of who he was and of his premoral existence and who he was there,
influential in getting people to follow Jesus Christ.
It completely changed, like immediately.
It was simultaneous, immediate, that he completely changed how he saw himself and his purpose
in his life.
It changed how he saw everything.
Anyway, and Brittany was so great about this.
Brittany, they had actually gone to a park that night, I later found out, and Brittany
was so encouraging and so happy and committed to wait for him even though they decided to
not be engaged while he served.
But he told her that he had to go on a mission and she was like his biggest cheerleader.
And yet, I know that it was really hard for her too.
And she supported him, and they were amazing during that two-year period.
He was such a great missionary.
Went in the MTC in Provo on his 23rd birthday to serve in Florida and served a really successful
mission and came home, and three weeks later, him and Brittany were married in the temple.
I'll never forget that picture of him coming home, Scott, in the airport, and him and Brittany
falling into one another's arms after both having made that sacrifice.
And their relationship had become consecrated because of his sacrifice.
And they have such a sweet family.
They just have four beautiful children, and Devin and Brittany are doing very well.
And I pray that they'll endure the end and the covenants that they've made.
But the point of that story is that if we could all just get a glimpse and see who we
were there, how it would change us here and now, immediately.
That's the point.
And I know that if we would, again, I haven't seen myself in the pre-immortal existence,
and again, my patriarchal blessing says nothing about it, and I think many maybe don't.
But we can get that glimpse.
When you read, for example, when we read Abraham chapter 3, Scott, I hope that based on the
testimony of prophets who have read this and the commentary that have been given over the
many years, this is one of the most, I think, quoted scriptures in general conference.
You read Abraham chapter 3, verse 22, starting with verse 22.
Now, the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized.
So before we were spirits and organized as spirits, we were intelligences in the pre-immortal
existence, and unfortunately, we have a lot to learn about what that means and our eternal
existence even before we were created as spirits.
And I'm anxious to learn more about that in the next life because we don't know—not
much has been revealed to us about that in this life.
So let me start over.
Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the
world was, and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones.
And God saw these souls that they were good, and He stood in the midst of them, and He
said, These I will make my rulers, for He stood among those that were spirits, and He
saw that they were good.
And He said unto me, Abraham, Thou art one of them.
Thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
And if we skip down to verse 26, And they who keep their first estate, or our pre-immortal
existence, or the first place, as Alma called it, they shall be added upon, and they who
keep not their first estate, that's the one-third, shall not have glory in the same kingdom with
those who keep their first estate.
And those who keep their second estate, which is here in mortality, shall have glory added
upon their heads forever and ever.
Well, I think if we carefully, prayerfully ponder and meditate upon those verses and
that truth, Scott, we could all maybe get a glimpse of who we were, how we've been taught
this by prophets, that we participated in the Grand Council of Heaven, we all sustained
Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer, we had gifts and talents and responsibilities
and for ordinations that we received there, responsibilities that we had there.
I think we could get something of a glimpse of all of that as we ponder the truths of
the Scriptures and the words and teachings of the prophets.
Well, I think that that's one of the reasons that Heavenly Father has given us the teachings
and the words of the prophets, is so that we can get that glimpse of who we are.
He really desires for us to have that glimpse, and he's gone to great lengths to help us
to achieve that here in mortality through the Scriptures, through the prophets, even
through our temple experience and our covenant paths.
I know that he has provided all of that for us, not just so that we will ultimately become
heirs and joint heirs, but to give us sustenance and sustaining and strength in our efforts
to do so while we're here, because the enemy, the adversary, the accuser that we read about
last week, he will try to distort our testimonies.
He will try to make us believe that the blood of the lamb has no effect.
And he's been successful.
We see success all around us.
Yeah, pre-mortally and mortally.
Yeah, pre-mortally and maybe even more than two-thirds here, or a third here.
I don't know.
But just to have that glimpse of who we are, that remembering of some sort, to pray, to
go to the temple, when we fast, when we do whatever it is that we do to make a connection
with Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ, and to enable the Spirit of the Holy
Ghost to be in our lives.
As we catch that glimpse, it makes more solid our efforts and our commitment and our desire
becomes deeper and greater to serve and to be able to, through the blood of the lamb,
through the atonement of Jesus Christ, to return home.
Right.
That's our home.
Absolutely.
And it's important that we understand, Scott, you couldn't be neutral there.
You couldn't sit on the fence there.
You had to choose there.
And one-third chose to follow Satan, and the two-thirds followed Jesus Christ.
And all those who followed Jesus Christ received bodies and are on this earth.
We all follow Jesus Christ there.
I think that's such an important truth to know that we were His disciples and that we,
I mean, I think it may make people feel uncomfortable when they think of themselves as being noble
and great in the pre-mortal existence.
I don't know why that is.
It's something—
Well, that's part of the confusion that the adversary's trying to put upon us.
The accuser does not want us to believe that we were noble and great.
That's one of his accusations.
You're nobody.
In the pre-mortal existence.
Right.
And if he can get us to believe that we were nobody there and our existence before this
life didn't matter and that we were probably weak and losers there, then we're gonna be
weak and losers here.
Or even worse, that it never existed and it's all just by happenstance that we're here by
some ex nihilo phenomenon.
Exactly.
Anyway, this truth, this doctrine can be life-changing.
And another example I have of that is when I was a bishop in Minnesota and there was
another sweet bishop, you know, who I was close to and he and I would often commiserate
with one another and counsel with one another.
I mean, sometimes it's hard to—there are some things you can't even tell your counselors,
but sometimes you have to just talk to another bishop about it.
And he and I would sometimes have those conversations and one day we were having a conversation
about his own son and his son who was struggling, who was charismatic, good-looking, handsome,
you know, very influential in his high school and not keeping the commandments, not doing
the things that were right.
And this sweet bishop is sharing with me his concerns and fears, frustrations about that.
And as we were talking about that, you know, it came back into my mind what President Boyd
K. Packer had taught over and over again.
True doctrine understood changes behavior.
More than a discussion of behavior changes behavior.
This is really important.
True doctrine understood—not just true doctrine, but true doctrine understood changes behavior.
Well, so in our conversation we were counseling together and I suggested, so instead of talking
about his behaviors every time he gets in trouble, why don't you try teaching him doctrine?
Focus on doctrine.
Well, it was the weekend after that or the few weeks after that that his son had come
home and he again had been drinking or doing things that he shouldn't have been doing,
not keeping the commandments.
And he comes home and his dad, the bishop, is waiting up for him.
And he comes in and this time instead of getting upset or focusing on his behaviors, he just
—I don't want to use his real name, so we'll just use the name of Sam—and he says to
him, Sam, what do you believe about your premortal existence?
I don't know.
Do you believe you sat on the fence there?
I don't know.
Well, I know you didn't.
You followed Jesus Christ in the premortal existence.
You are among the noble and great ones, Sam, and if you were that there, why are you not
doing it here?
That was in the essence of the message of his father, the bishop.
Sam later told his dad how he could not get that off his mind, and he didn't sleep well
that night, and he could not forget.
The words were accompanied not just the truth, but the words, the truth, was accompanied
by the Spirit, and Sam understood he was not neutral in the premortal existence.
Why was he not being more committed in living the gospel here and that he had to change?
And he did, Scott.
And he became a powerful missionary as well.
He put in his papers shortly after he got out of high school, so you can go until you
were 19 then, but he changed, and that was the turning point in his life.
Now, I know it doesn't always work that way.
I know that.
But true doctrine understood changes of behavior.
I know that.
And I believe one of the most powerful points of doctrine that we can teach is our premortal
existence, and how noble and great and valiant and true and exceedingly faithful we were
there.
Next week and in subsequent episodes, we're going to begin talking about, we'll start
talking about the fall, and we'll start talking about the conditions of the fall and the effects
of the fall and how in this life we are living in the effects of the fall.
And one of the effects of the fall is that we have that forgetting, right?
We have that veil.
Yeah.
These noble and great ones come down and they become nothing.
Yeah, and they're like, who am I?
I just don't understand.
And, you know, but as we talk about how the Spirit of the Holy Ghost is the administrator
of the atonement of Jesus Christ, well, that's the beginning of that administration of the
atonement.
Even the witness from the Holy Spirit of who we are, that's the beginning of the administration
of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives, David.
No, absolutely.
In fact, I'm glad you said that because really, I think, to really feel the full effects of
the atonement of Jesus Christ, to really understand the mission and the atonement of Jesus Christ,
we have to better understand the true doctrine of His premortal existence and our own premortal
existence and the role of Jesus Christ and His atonement even before we were born, and
our role in defending it.
And then as we begin to understand our role there and we defended it, how we defended
it and as we filled those poles back to home, our heavenly home, suddenly then, and maybe
not suddenly, but maybe over time and maybe line upon line and precept upon precept, and
I'm sure for some it does come suddenly, but then we find ourselves, we find our feet walking
the covenant path.
And as we do that, as we continue and begin to walk that covenant path, the atonement
of Jesus Christ just takes care of everything in our lives.
Amen.
And that's why.
I mean, ultimately, bottom line, why we need to know is because as we know, then the power
of Jesus Christ through His atonement can start to work in our lives.
And with a little bit of effort, and it takes effort, and with a little bit of daily effort
and a little bit of constant effort and enduring to the end effort, and that's all enduring
to the end is just a constant effort.
And as we-
And that effort, Scott, is part of the exceeding faith.
I mean, faith is action for effort.
And it's also a demonstration of love.
Love is a verb.
And we show our love to Him by following Him and by putting on His atonement.
First off, beginning to know who we are and remembering who we are.
And with that, not listening to the buffeting of the adversary-
The accusations.
The accusations, even better.
The accusations of the adversary yelling in our spiritual ears, you're nothing.
You're nothing.
You never existed there.
It's just a big hoax.
What are you doing?
All you got to do is be a good person.
All you have, there is, in fact-
What if it's not true?
Yeah.
And that's the biggest part.
We talked a couple weeks ago about that whole relative truth, but that's where it starts.
That's where it starts.
And if He can get us to forget or not remember who we are, then His work is just a heck of
a lot easier.
Identity is everything.
Identity determines eternity.
Yeah.
I know that we have listeners, and I know this firsthand.
I'm not speculating on this.
I know this because of conversations I've had, because of communication that I've received,
and so forth.
But there's many among us who sometimes forget who we are, that sometimes don't understand
our own greatness, that we are indeed children of divinity.
We have a heritage, a spiritual heritage that qualifies us to be heirs, joined heirs of
all that the Father has.
And we have promised to us the ability to feel His love, to receive His direction through
our own sacrifice and determination and work.
It takes a little work on our part, too, to stay on the covenant path and to follow Him
as we remember who we are.
You know, as we partake of the sacrament, we covenant to remember Him.
And I think before we can honestly remember Him, we do need to remember who we are.
And there's something, you know, for some, they may be thinking, well, it sounds prideful.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Actually, when I think about who I really am, and I get a glimpse of that, Scott, it
actually humbles me.
Oh, yeah.
It's the humility that comes in the wake of knowing who you are that is so powerful.
The humility to know of the faithfulness and the gifts and talents of testimony and faith
and all of that that we had in the pre-mortal existence actually has effect of complete
humility and meekness.
Right.
Yeah, it does.
It rushes over me.
And so there's no pride in that.
And I think it's one of the keys, really, of our humility is to know who we are.
And I'll just say this in closing as a final thought.
But I experienced this because of my involvement in recovery rooms.
You've experienced it for many, many reasons.
Classrooms.
Not the least of which would be your classrooms and all of your leadership service that you've
been blessed to be able to participate in and others have been blessed by that.
But there are those probably who are thinking, you know, it's easy for you guys to say this.
It's really easy.
You're sitting there behind some microphones and you're in a nice place and you're on the
other end of a lot of the difficulties in your life.
Not that there aren't some still looming, perhaps, but a lot of your difficulties in
your life.
But if you knew what I was going through, it may not be as easy for you, Scott and David,
to say the things that you're saying.
And I get that.
I get that.
I remember feeling that myself.
Not all that long ago, you know, but I didn't really catch that glimpse until a few years
into, I mean, really catch that glimpse.
I was getting little tiny glimpses, but really catch that glimpse until a few years into
recovery.
I had had to go through some disciplinary councils and some reckonings and some reconciliations
of my own, which was really important.
But as I did that, and I struggled with my own spiritual identity from time to time,
and if I were to be honest, I maybe sometimes still do.
I think we're all susceptible, perhaps, to feeling down about ourselves and all of that.
This is my witness and maybe even my invitation.
My witness is that if you draw nigh unto me, he said, I will draw nigh unto you.
And as I made effort to do that, I would get these little glimpses.
And then the accuser would come in and say, you're not worthy to get this glimpse.
Look at all the garbage you've done and accuse me again of all the stuff in my past.
And I wouldn't feel worthy.
And I would think, I'm just tricking myself, you know.
But don't listen to that.
Listen only to the warm feelings that come as we make an effort.
And that's my invitation.
For those of us, and it might be all of us, for those of us who could use some help in
understanding deeper and greater who we are, I invite us over this next week to make a
lot of effort in doing that through scripture study, through prayer, through studying the
words of the apostles and prophets, and then culminating that Sunday, that's a sacrament
table.
And as we renew covenants that we've made, and if we are not partaking of the sacrament
for whatever reason at this time, we can still sit there and we can still think about Him
and His importance and effect in our life.
And as we do that, I believe that I can, without fear of successful contradiction, believe
that we will, at least at some level.
And it will be varying depending on our own levels of commitment and righteousness.
That we can and will receive a witness of who we are.
That's His intent.
He wants us.
He doesn't want to withhold that stuff from us.
He wants us to know.
If we seek, we will.
Yeah, Scott, thank you so much.
And just a final thought.
There's lots of questions that we need to answer in this life.
We need to answer how.
How can I?
How do we?
We need to answer questions like, what am I supposed to do, the what's of life, right?
The how's and the what's.
And we need to answer the why questions.
You know, why am I here?
All those questions.
Where am I going?
So many questions.
But I believe the single most important question that has to be answered by us in the deepest
realms of our heart and soul is, who am I?
And who is God?
If we can answer the who questions, Scott, it gives us the motivating powers that we
need to be able to then search and receive answers to all of the other important questions
of life.
But the single most important questions in this life begin with who.
And I hope that our listeners will read, go search the topical guide under man, anti-mortal
existence of.
You'll find that in the topical guide of the Bible.
Go read about who we are.
Look it up.
Study the pre-mortal existence.
Study what prophets have said about us participating in the Grand Council of Heaven, being noble
and great.
Use the conference reports and the citation indexes that are available.
Go search.
And as you search and pay that price and ponder and meditate and pray, we can all get a glimpse
of who we are.
And once we know who we are and who God is, it changes everything.
And it's our prayer that each of us will experience that and participate in that.
Thanks for being with us.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, may God bless you and may you always remember that you have been redeemed
through His blood.
Thanks for being with us.
See you next week.