1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,400 Well, hey there everybody, welcome out. 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,800 We've got another great podcast in store for you today. 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,440 In fact, we've got quite a treat. 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,840 Before we do that though, my name's Scott Durfey. 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,400 I've got my uncle Dave here with me. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Good to be here. 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:30,800 Beautiful morning and great to be with you, Scott, with our guests this morning. 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,200 Yeah, super excited to introduce our guests. 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:39,120 Over the last several weeks, we've been talking about forgiveness and repentance and obviously 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:45,360 our relationship with and how the life of the Savior comes into all of this. 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:51,720 And today we are going to put that, as we have done in the past, we've had several opportunities 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,020 to have guests on. 13 00:00:54,020 --> 00:00:56,060 This one I'm really excited about. 14 00:00:56,060 --> 00:01:03,760 Today we'll be having a guest that I've known for 24 years and a guy that I think just kind 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:09,320 of exemplifies a relationship with his heavenly father that is unmatched by most people that 16 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:10,960 I know for sure. 17 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:16,720 And when I think of this guy, before I get to his name and all that, he reminds me of 18 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:21,640 a scripture here in John chapter 3 verses 16 and 17. 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,920 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth 20 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,160 in him should not perish but have everlasting life. 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,880 And this is the one I think that's really exemplary of the things that we'll be talking 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:36,880 about today. 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:37,880 This is verse 17. 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:45,200 For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but the world through him 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,000 might be saved. 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,400 And ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, it's my great pleasure to introduce a very 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,360 close friend of mine, Mr. Mark Minor. 28 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,800 Mark and I first met. 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,440 I first met Mark in November of 1998. 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:07,360 He at that time was very involved, as was my wife at the time and a couple of other 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,720 of our close friends, Gary and Sherry and many others. 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Phil has taken us down a trip down memory lane just a little bit. 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,800 But Mark was highly involved in helping get the addiction recovery program for the Church 34 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:27,120 of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints underway and was quite instrumental in that, especially 35 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,160 in the Utah County area. 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,220 Mark has 20 plus years of sobriety. 37 00:02:33,220 --> 00:02:38,560 He is a great, great man, a great dad, a great father. 38 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,040 You might recognize his voice. 39 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,140 He's been on several videos for the church addiction recovery program. 40 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:50,000 Many of those can be seen at the church's website, for example. 41 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,400 But we're just really excited to have Mark here with us today. 42 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Hi Mark. 43 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:55,400 Hi, Scott. 44 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,400 Hi, Dave. 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,200 Great to be here with you. 46 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,240 It's great to have you here too, Mark. 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,960 So Mark, give us just a real brief synopsis, if you will, of what your involvement is. 48 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,040 We're going to get your story and we're going to get into all of the things that kind of 49 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,660 got us to where we are today. 50 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:18,520 But can you just kind of tell us about what is Mark Minor up to today? 51 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Well, I'm grateful to be a dad and a husband. 52 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,280 I am currently a missionary in the addiction recovery program for the Church of Jesus Christ 53 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,080 of Latter-day Saints. 54 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,960 Done that for about 16 years now. 55 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,040 I've actually been involved with that program since it was a pilot program beginning in 56 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,640 1992 at the Utah State Prison. 57 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:49,260 And my involvement has been as a participant and then eventually as a facilitator, which 58 00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:55,660 is someone who has worked the steps and helps to kind of direct the meeting a little bit. 59 00:03:55,660 --> 00:04:00,260 And then eventually I've become a missionary in the program because it's my passion. 60 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:03,720 But my passion is really much more than just a program. 61 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:11,600 My passion is Jesus Christ, that He lives, that He is a personal Redeemer and Savior, 62 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,880 not for just all of us, but for each of us individually. 63 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,120 And He knows us by name. 64 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:24,600 He loves us so much and He is relentless in His pursuit of bringing His children back 65 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,520 home to heaven. 66 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,520 Yeah. 67 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:34,760 So, Deb and I and Mark have all been facilitators for multiple years in the addiction recovery 68 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:35,760 program. 69 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,000 But Mark is just kind of an icon there, if you will. 70 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Everybody knows him. 71 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:48,000 He's been so helpful and so generous with his time and his love and helping others. 72 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,880 And so we're just grateful to have you here today, Mark. 73 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,440 So Mark, we're going to continue on as we always do. 74 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:03,800 We're going to talk about how your experience has helped you and how it can help others 75 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,080 understand more fully that we have all been redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ. 76 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,520 That's literally the name of our podcast and that's our mission here is to help us understand 77 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,760 that and more than understand it, but to help those of us who may feel weak and embracing 78 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,720 to kind of change and embrace that more. 79 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,840 And so I think we'll just go ahead and get kicked off here. 80 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:29,040 David, I'll let you just kind of lead us into the discussion, if you will, and we'll go 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,040 from there. 82 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,040 Thank you, Scott. 83 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,440 Again, thank you, Mark, for being here. 84 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,640 When Mark walked into the room, we're all three together here in a room. 85 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:44,280 And when Mark walked in the room, I said, I think I know you. 86 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:45,840 We've maybe met before. 87 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:53,200 Then as I thought about it, I first met Mark, not in person, but I first became acquainted 88 00:05:53,200 --> 00:06:00,000 with Mark's story probably 12, 13 years ago by way of video. 89 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,200 Yeah, that would be right. 90 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,200 Yeah. 91 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:11,040 Designing that course on repentance and forgiveness, I would show some of the better videos on 92 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:17,280 the addiction recovery program that the church was putting together and looking for help 93 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:22,860 with individuals that were trying to repent and find their savior. 94 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:27,880 And Mark's video was always one of my favorites. 95 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:35,360 To see his countenance in the video and to hear his story is pretty dramatic, really. 96 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:42,480 And then to be here in person with him is really a sweet opportunity, Mark. 97 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,360 And as we have kind of become better acquainted this morning, we've talked this morning a 98 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,600 little bit before the podcast began. 99 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,160 Yeah, you grew up as a member of the church. 100 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,760 As I understand, I want to recap some of this, Mark, to get where we want to go. 101 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:05,400 You grew up as a member of the church, but not in a really active Latter-day Saint home. 102 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Correct. 103 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,800 Your parents were active, but you probably came from a little bit of a pioneer heritage. 104 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,800 Yes. 105 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,160 My parents were not active, but they made sure my sister and I had opportunities to 106 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:18,160 be active. 107 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Yeah. 108 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,160 And this was, where did you grow up, Mark? 109 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,440 I grew up in a military base. 110 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:22,440 I'm an Army brat. 111 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,440 Okay. 112 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:31,440 Born in Germany, there twice, the D.C. area, California, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma. 113 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:37,640 But wherever you went, the church was there and you would find yourself going and oftentimes 114 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,680 without your parents. 115 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:40,680 Correct. 116 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,960 Latter-day Saints are really good about offering rides to young kids. 117 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,640 And that's awesome. 118 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:57,440 But as families can be hard and your family had its challenges, your parents, and as you 119 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:04,840 described it, Mark, even as a young boy, you can still remember kind of the worry and the 120 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:10,560 anxiety, a little heartache, you know, when your parents had their challenges. 121 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,560 And the responsibility that you felt, you know, even as a six-year-old, to try to fix 122 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,920 their marriage or to try to make things better. 123 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:33,080 And early on in your life, you kind of developed this, I'm going to fix you mentality and that 124 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,880 created some problems for you throughout your life, probably. 125 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,480 It did. 126 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:44,360 Just as parents are not giving an owner's manual on how to raise children per se, nor 127 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,640 children given a manual on how to fix their parents' broken marriage. 128 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:49,640 Yeah. 129 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,280 But what pressure? 130 00:08:52,280 --> 00:09:02,960 I often think of the words in the movie, Hope Floats, the phrase, childhood is something 131 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,360 we spend the rest of our life trying to get over. 132 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,960 A lot of truth to that, brother. 133 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,320 You know, it's a hard thing. 134 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,720 Mark, get that a little closer. 135 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:23,000 It can be a really hard thing to go through some of those experiences. 136 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,840 Your father went to Vietnam, came home. 137 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,680 And how old were you when they got divorced? 138 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:41,600 Well, they didn't technically get divorced until literally I was in the MTC at the age 139 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,440 of 24 when their divorce was final. 140 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,920 But they had been living in separate bedrooms for years. 141 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,720 And my dad had actually moved out of the house for the last year that they were still technically 142 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,200 married. 143 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,600 But their marriage was rocky from about the age of six on for me. 144 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:07,120 And all through my teenage years, there was more separateness than there ever was togetherness 145 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,120 in our family. 146 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,320 Yeah. 147 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:16,600 And yeah, you mentioned that you went to the MTC and you told us that you went to the MTC 148 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,220 and you were there when you turned 25 years old. 149 00:10:21,220 --> 00:10:28,960 It's an interesting story, Mark, that we want you to tell about two different times in prison, 150 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:40,100 once before the MTC and once after the MTC, being a successful missionary in the San Bernardino 151 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:47,440 Mission, California, coming home, going to BYU, all of that, and then relapsed and ended 152 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,440 up back in prison. 153 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:56,780 So you spent some time in prison in Arizona and then another time here in Utah. 154 00:10:56,780 --> 00:11:01,440 It all began when you were about 17 or 18 on an Army base. 155 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,800 Why don't you just tell us a little bit about the beginning of that and your first experience 156 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,960 in prison and what you learned from that experience and how you were able to overcome that through 157 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,800 the love of God and the redemption of Jesus Christ to be able to even go on a mission. 158 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:26,320 Well, I thought I had failed in fixing my parents and gradually the faith that I had 159 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:35,920 in Jesus Christ and my belief in any kind of authority figure, parents, teachers, preachers, 160 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:42,480 whoever, slowly faded out because I thought I had done my best and my best wasn't good 161 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,320 enough and that set me up for addiction. 162 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,840 I remember drinking a beer for the first time right close to my 16th birthday and literally 163 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,000 in less than 18 months, I was addicted to a couple of the hardest drugs on the planet 164 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,000 and I got arrested. 165 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:05,080 I was 17 years old in my senior year for a couple of burglaries to pay for my addiction 166 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:12,120 because there was no way I could make enough money at my job to pay for my daily use of 167 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:18,760 these drugs and I had tried multiple times to quit and I was so far over my head that 168 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,240 it was basically impossible. 169 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,040 And so they don't throw away the key the first time they lock you up. 170 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:30,120 They put me into the youth prison system, but every time I got out, even for just a 171 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:36,360 day or two, I would find alcohol or drugs and they violated me three times in a row 172 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:44,120 and told me that if I don't follow the rules, which is basically don't use alcohol or drugs 173 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:51,760 and get a job or and or go to school, that you're going to be locked up again. 174 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,680 And the third time I got locked up again, they remanded me to adult court and I ended 175 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:05,520 up spending five years in the Arizona State prison system and it got my attention. 176 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,060 They offered me religion. 177 00:13:08,060 --> 00:13:13,380 They offered me 12 steps, but I thought I'd burned all those bridges and that if there 178 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:20,260 even was a God, he was surely too disappointed in me to ever accept me again. 179 00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:23,400 And so I tried to disbelieve in God. 180 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,480 Fortunately, I can say now that God never stopped believing in me. 181 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,640 That's the bottom line, because I believe now, looking back, it's really clear that 182 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,680 God continued to knock at the door of my heart. 183 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:42,960 I think there's this innate desire in every human who is at least in a relatively stable 184 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,600 place, this innate desire to improve, to progress. 185 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,480 And so I got my high school diploma. 186 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,520 Then I got a college diploma. 187 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:57,120 I went from not even being able to bench press 90 pounds to bench pressing 300 pounds and 188 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:04,000 squatting 500 pounds and I could run 10 miles and I could hit a baseball better than almost 189 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,400 anybody at the prison. 190 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:13,720 And yet, with all that accomplishment and all that work I put in during those five years, 191 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,040 it wasn't quite enough. 192 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,560 Because can we really fix ourselves? 193 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,640 We can do a lot of good things and I'm not going to begrudge any of the efforts I put 194 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:25,640 in. 195 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:26,960 It served me well. 196 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:33,200 But in the absence of a spiritual connection and a spiritual identity, it simply wasn't 197 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,200 enough. 198 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,280 And as soon as I got out of prison, I found myself relapsed again. 199 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,240 They put me back in for the last few months of my sentence and for the first time in almost 200 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,520 10 years, I found my relationship with God. 201 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:53,400 I felt God reaching out to my soul through a combination of different things. 202 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,280 There was a girl I was writing to. 203 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,800 She I'd seen her at the University of Arizona. 204 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,840 We had gone to high school together. 205 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,560 And when I quit showing up to class, she found out that I'd gone back to prison. 206 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,920 She actually wrote me a letter and I didn't have I'd never had a romantic relationship 207 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,560 before. 208 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,120 But I started to care for this young woman. 209 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,120 And at the same time, I was taking a class in comparative religion and philosophy. 210 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,240 Because if you're going to be locked up, you might as well use your time doing something. 211 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,080 And in that class, they said we had to write a thesis. 212 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,360 This was an upper level college course. 213 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:33,100 And the thesis was going to be who or what is your religion, your worldview or your philosophy 214 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:34,640 and defend it. 215 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,760 And so you had to write the paper and then defend it in front of the class. 216 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:45,120 And I was going to write something about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the I'm OK, you're 217 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:51,360 OK, pop psychology, because that was the only thing that seemed to make much sense to me. 218 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,920 But God had a different plan. 219 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,120 So real quick, Mark, before you did all of that, you talked about you were trying to 220 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,320 fix your parents. 221 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,120 They had a rocky relationship. 222 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,160 And when we were talking earlier, and I've heard you talk about this before, too, you 223 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,120 said you had this big open pit right in the middle of your chest that just needed to be 224 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,560 filled with something. 225 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,560 This big spiritual hole. 226 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,560 Yeah. 227 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,000 And and I can relate to this because this was my experience, too. 228 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,440 You know, I was 15, not, you know, not 16 when I was filling that hole that I had. 229 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:29,480 And I filled my hole with alcohol and filled that. 230 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,320 And I felt that kind of relief come from filling that hole. 231 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,640 You kind of explained earlier a similar situation. 232 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,640 Is that correct? 233 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,880 Yeah, absolutely. 234 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,280 Because when your world is rocked, everything that you believe in, everything that makes 235 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:45,280 you happy. 236 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:51,080 For me, this was my relationship with my family and my relationship with God, who when I was 237 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:57,480 a little boy, I inherently knew there was a God and I could walk and talk with God. 238 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:58,480 And life was good. 239 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,880 It was baseball, puppies, Fourth of July Christmas. 240 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:09,520 And when all of a sudden my parents were arguing and I heard accusations about another woman 241 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:16,920 in my dad's life and realized my dad was drinking every day, I realized something was missing. 242 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:23,440 And I thought, OK, if I become good enough, I can help my dad to love my mom more. 243 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,760 I thought that was my job. 244 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,320 And nobody was because I wouldn't articulate this. 245 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,360 How can a six or seven year old articulate this to someone outside the family? 246 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:35,800 I didn't share it with anybody. 247 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,720 I just thought God was putting it in my heart to go fix my family. 248 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:40,720 Yeah. 249 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,960 So you found alcohol and that kind of filled that hole for a minute like it does for all 250 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:52,920 of us, alcoholics and addicts that engage in those kinds of things. 251 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,840 And so eventually, and we're coming to this, but eventually, and you started to talk about 252 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:05,840 it already, but eventually we find that to substitute that that liquid spirit, so to 253 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,920 speak, with the spirit of our Heavenly Father. 254 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,840 And you know, when we've talked about putting on the atonement of Jesus Christ as part of 255 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,640 this process, we have also talked about that how that happens for us. 256 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,800 Dave says this is one of the biggest questions that comes up in his classes, teaching seminary 257 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,240 and Institute for 30, 40 years. 258 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,480 And you know, in the short time Deb and I have been teaching it at BYU, this is the 259 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800 one that comes up is how do we know we're putting on the atonement of Jesus Christ? 260 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:31,800 How do I know? 261 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,680 And we're going to get to that in upcoming episodes as part of this podcast too. 262 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:42,700 But we've determined and identified early on and already that we know that because the 263 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,840 administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ is the Holy Ghost. 264 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:52,480 And when we're feeling that and when we feel that Holy Ghost inside of that, in place of 265 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,000 the alcohol, in place of the drugs, that's when we really start to make a conversion. 266 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,800 And I think that, you know, you're a pretty good example of that. 267 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,120 So you go from prison to a mission. 268 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:06,920 How did how did that happen? 269 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,880 Was it an event or a process? 270 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,360 Mark, describe that to us. 271 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:18,720 Well, in the process of filling that hole in my soul, which I knew I knew by then alcohol 272 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,000 and drugs never would. 273 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:28,160 It would only it was a temporary and ultimately very deceitful attempt to to change what I 274 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,160 believed in. 275 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,080 But yet my soul knew better. 276 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:36,760 And when it was finally filled with the Holy Ghost and with the the the sure knowledge 277 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:42,200 that Jesus really was the Christ, I became alive and I said, this is what I've always 278 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,640 looked for. 279 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,240 This feels right. 280 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,360 It lasts. 281 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,960 I don't wake up with regret. 282 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,600 I wake up with joy. 283 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,400 And now I want to share it with the world. 284 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,080 So that impelled me to try to seek a mission. 285 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:01,560 And fortunately, God is really good about cleaning up his children who come to him. 286 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:09,240 Every single behavior that I had from smoking to inappropriate thoughts, to anger, all dissipated 287 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,080 at the feet of Christ. 288 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:16,160 I turned it all over to him and I was worthy, not of myself. 289 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:23,560 My my only my only real part was continued willingness, which I prayed for every day. 290 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:30,840 But Christ came into my life to such an extent that I was ready to serve a mission and I 291 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,280 was ready to be used in whatever way I could. 292 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,360 And fortunately, they said yes. 293 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:43,860 And it became one of the more the less it was, the more satisfying and the least regretful 294 00:20:43,860 --> 00:20:50,360 experiences of my life, not necessarily an easy experience, but it was wonderful. 295 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:52,400 So you have a successful mission. 296 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,680 You be you baptized probably lots of people. 297 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,240 I imagine you were a powerful missionary. 298 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,920 The experiences you had been through the maturity that you had the age of 25 serve as an assistant 299 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:11,820 to the president and be able to testify of the reality of these things. 300 00:21:11,820 --> 00:21:23,320 Then you come home, go to BYU, fall in love there with someone and that doesn't work out. 301 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,320 Just describe briefly the relapse you experienced. 302 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:35,240 Well, so I started to experience that my best isn't good enough, whole in my soul that I 303 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,920 had felt with trying to fix my parents' marriage. 304 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:47,360 And that, you know, when you start to go into depression, when you start to go into discouragement, 305 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:52,440 at least with me, I started to feel like the way I feel right now is the way I'm always 306 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,440 going to feel. 307 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,000 I'm fated to feel this way. 308 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,440 That's a lie. 309 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:03,880 I didn't I wasn't mature enough yet to truly trust in God to get me through that to the 310 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,180 other side because God was there all along. 311 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:13,960 But I was saying to God, basically, I failed with this girl that you set me up with. 312 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,480 And so I guess my best isn't good enough. 313 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,040 And that's an untenable position for anyone to be in. 314 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,360 You can't just live. 315 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:24,820 It mean it's not even living. 316 00:22:24,820 --> 00:22:26,160 It's just existing. 317 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,160 And that hole just continued to get more and more open. 318 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,320 And finally, I caved. 319 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,560 I had a root canal done. 320 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,920 Somebody gave me a prescription for a pain pill, and I knew in my soul that I should 321 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:38,920 not take it. 322 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,320 But I said, I'll just put it in my pocket just in case. 323 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,920 Famous last words. 324 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:53,440 And Mark, you've kind of described in introducing yourself to me as we've talked before the 325 00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:02,560 podcast began about all the different labels that you had at that time in your life that 326 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,160 came back to you. 327 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:11,120 And I believe through experiences that you've maybe had negative some of the negative experiences 328 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,320 that you had had would result in some of those labels. 329 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:24,640 But I also know that all of us have a voice, or Satan and his followers, whisper that we're 330 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,040 not good enough, that there's a certain shame and labels that go with it. 331 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:37,480 So just describe for our listeners some of the labels that you felt that you were putting 332 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,320 on yourself, or that Satan was putting on you. 333 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:49,720 Yeah, ex-convict, alcoholic addict, even if in recovery, not good enough, never will be 334 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:56,200 good enough, phony, fraud, all sorts of negative voices. 335 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,240 And I knew there was a degree of truth in all of that. 336 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,560 And what I didn't recognize yet, but I now know is that Satan will sometimes teach us 337 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,120 four or five truths if he can slip in a destructive lie. 338 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:16,760 Because the truth was is that I was a recovering alcoholic, I was an ex-convict, but the biggest 339 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:24,160 truth of all was that I was a son of God, a son of the living God who never stops. 340 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:33,360 And Satan was able to deceive me that in that regard, I thought if I am a son of God, okay, 341 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,660 intellectually I know that, but right now I'm not feeling it. 342 00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:41,480 So I must be a broken son of God, and I don't think I can be redeemed. 343 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:51,040 What overcame those labels to what you knew from God that who you really were, and did 344 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:57,400 this happen the second time you went in prison, where the labels turned to your identity, 345 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,720 your eternal identity? 346 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:04,680 Yes, the whole story of the relapse doesn't even deserve the time to be retold. 347 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,040 It's just relapse, it's just giving up. 348 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,000 And when we give up, Satan has control and he whips us all around and tries to destroy 349 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,000 us. 350 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:19,240 And in the middle of my self-destruction, which I had bought into, God was there. 351 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,720 And it was not this warm, fuzzy, come to Jesus moment. 352 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:31,240 It was a moment of raw, awful truth in which I saw all the deceit, all the negativity, 353 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:37,560 all the pain that I had caused, and the ways in which I had refused God, even refused his 354 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,920 help. 355 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,280 But he was here, and he was offering me help. 356 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,920 And I knew it's because God is God. 357 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,880 His love is his number one attribute. 358 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,800 He is the God of truth. 359 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,800 Well, love is the highest truth of all. 360 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,880 And he wasn't moving. 361 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:02,120 And I said, well, if you're here in this, you've descended beneath all things in this 362 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,200 pit that I created for myself. 363 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,480 I think this happened right after you had robbed a bank. 364 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,120 It wasn't a bank, it was a store. 365 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:16,960 But yes, it was right after a robbery in which all the rationalizations were taken away from 366 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,240 my head. 367 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:25,000 And I saw that I had literally put another human being, a brother in the gospel sense, 368 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,880 because truly we are. 369 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,360 I had put him in fear of his life. 370 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:39,800 And me, whose life had been saved by a heavenly father and by a savior, how could I have done 371 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,440 that to another human being? 372 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,800 And I thought I didn't deserve to live anymore. 373 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,080 And that's when God showed up and said, I'm still here. 374 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:54,680 All of that while you were hiding from the police in a bush. 375 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,360 Correct. 376 00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:05,440 And as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mark, to hiding 377 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:14,640 in a bush after an armed robbery, how does that—again, the relapse, we don't need 378 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,280 to go into all the details of that. 379 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:27,520 But just explain the process of how is it that an individual can fall from grace so 380 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,520 far? 381 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:34,920 Well, there is no justification that actually—or rationalization that makes sense. 382 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:43,040 Satan, when we give up on our faith in Christ, or we give up on ourself, which is essentially 383 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:51,560 the same thing, we take our agency and say, God, I don't need you anymore. 384 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,080 I don't deserve you anymore. 385 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,280 It doesn't matter. 386 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,540 That's the outcome. 387 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:58,120 We separate ourselves from God. 388 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:04,320 And then Satan will plunge us into death and hell as quickly as he possibly can. 389 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,200 And it wasn't like that was my plan. 390 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,640 I'm just going to jump off the deep end and go ruin my life and destroy everything that's 391 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,200 good in it. 392 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:23,120 I was in such fear and depression and discouragement that I thought all I can do is just numb the 393 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:28,480 pain that I'm feeling until I reach the point where no amount of drug would numb the 394 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,520 pain. 395 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,680 And I was doing the things that I said that I would never do. 396 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,280 So the turning point for me was literally God saving my life. 397 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,000 And he said, start by being honest. 398 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,000 Take my hand. 399 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,400 I'll show you a better way. 400 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,400 And I did. 401 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,080 I walked out of those bushes, turned myself into the police and pled guilty to a five 402 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,840 to life armed robbery charge. 403 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:57,960 But sometime later in prison, I was I was back going to Institute of Religion classes, 404 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,280 back in college, exercising. 405 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,680 I had the spirit back. 406 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,020 They literally had had a church court for me and decided to keep me in full fellowship 407 00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:08,020 in the church. 408 00:29:08,020 --> 00:29:10,360 Of course, you can't wear your garments in prison. 409 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:11,480 And I couldn't believe that. 410 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,760 So I asked my uncle, who was a general authority, I said, I think they made the wrong decision 411 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,560 and said, no, Mark, they made the decision that God wanted them to make. 412 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,800 You are to retain your membership in the church. 413 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:31,000 So this all came to a head one day when we got a visitor to our institute class. 414 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,820 Elder Marion D. Hanks of the presidency of the 70 came and spoke to our institute class 415 00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:37,720 at the Draper Prison. 416 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,080 Mission president of Elder Holland and Elder Cook. 417 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,200 I don't know if you knew that, but no, I did not know. 418 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,560 Mary D. Hanks was a mission president of those two apostles. 419 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,520 And as a matter of fact, his nephew was my mission president in the Seattle, Washington 420 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Mission, Seattle, Washington, Mission. 421 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040 So many cool times in the church. 422 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:04,040 But I'll never forget literally sitting at his feet as we learned one of the most important 423 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,000 lessons of my life. 424 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:12,520 He came in and said, brethren, I don't have anything to share with you, anything prepared. 425 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 I'm just here to answer your questions. 426 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,560 And we were like deer in a headlight, but somebody threw out a softball question and 427 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,840 he answered it really easily. 428 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,600 And pretty soon we were all smiling and talking about enjoyable gospel topic. 429 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:33,600 And then this one fellow there, he was a tortured soul among tortured souls. 430 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,800 And he's he shot off this question. 431 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,640 How do I know I'm not a son of perdition? 432 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,480 Well Elder Hanks took that very seriously and said, brother, why would you ever say 433 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:44,480 that? 434 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,800 He gets he said, because I've known the truth since I was little. 435 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:54,200 And again and again and again, I've fallen back into sin and addiction and crime and 436 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,800 sin and addiction and crime. 437 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,840 And it just never ends. 438 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,840 And then Elder Hanks turned to the whole class and said, your brother has asked a really, 439 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,600 really important question that I think applies to all of us here. 440 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,080 How many of you think your son's a perdition? 441 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Well nobody put up their hand. 442 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,040 OK, let me rephrase that. 443 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,480 How many of here despair of ever making it to the celestial kingdom? 444 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,720 Well pretty soon we're all starting to put up our hands. 445 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:30,320 He goes, the real question is, can you make it to the celestial kingdom giving giving 446 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,480 what you have done? 447 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:39,400 Is that still a possibility or is the best you can ever hope for the terrestrial or celestial 448 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,400 kingdom? 449 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,680 Isn't that what your brother here is asking? 450 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,920 And I looked at my friend there who had asked the question and he was nodding. 451 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:53,440 Yep, that's basically I don't know that there's any hope of this higher kingdom when I can't 452 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,600 even stay straight in this earthly in our mortality. 453 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,280 And he goes, this question can only be answered as we ask more questions. 454 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,580 And he goes, this is the big question. 455 00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:10,240 Do any of you ever feel the spirit? 456 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,480 And one guy said, yeah, when we're here and brother maybe's Institute class, I feel the 457 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:15,960 spirit. 458 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,760 Another guy said, yeah, when my boys come to visit at visiting and I get to hug them, 459 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,480 I feel the spirit. 460 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,680 Another guy said, yeah, when grandma writes to me, I feel the spirit. 461 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,520 Oh, and we have those LDS music nights and they come in, they sing and they perform for 462 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,520 us. 463 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,320 Yeah, music and all sorts of people are saying, yeah, we feel the spirit. 464 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:41,160 So you would say that the Holy Ghost is alive and well within the walls of the prison, Mark? 465 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,560 As is Jesus himself. 466 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:51,000 But yes, and brother Hanks turns to my friend there and said, is any of this registering 467 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,000 with you? 468 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,520 And he goes, no, I never feel the spirit. 469 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,080 And then he says, well, then why do you keep coming to Institute class and church? 470 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,680 Because you say that you keep coming all the time. 471 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,560 And this guy shot off because it's the only place I feel peace. 472 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160 And that just hung in the air for like five or 10 seconds. 473 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,240 It seemed like a long time. 474 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,400 And the slow smile spread across Elder Hanks face. 475 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,840 And he said, he goes, that's your answer. 476 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:26,640 He goes, did you know that peace is the one thing that Satan can never imitate nor duplicate? 477 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:33,160 And the fact that you feel peace, it's a fruit of the spirit that testifies that the atonement 478 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,360 is alive and working. 479 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:42,280 And if the atonement is alive and working, then that is a sure sign that every promise 480 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,240 of the celestial kingdom is still available to you. 481 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:53,000 And I looked over at this big six foot five convict and he's rocking back and forth and 482 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,720 the tears are pouring down and he's going, yes, yes, yes, thank you. 483 00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,960 How sweet. 484 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:07,680 Well, while you're in prison, Mark, we've had a few other individuals in our podcasts 485 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:16,960 share that in the prison, they had some experiences that were life changing for them of crying 486 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:24,840 out, crying out and really coming to know God in a more personal and intimate way and 487 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,120 strengthening their relationship with Jesus Christ. 488 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,640 Did you have any of those experiences in prison and would you share them, please? 489 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:44,320 Multiple, because there is opposition in all things and basically at all times. 490 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:50,960 We have moments and periods and times of peace and of growth and of steady progress. 491 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:57,680 And yet we know that's not the nature of life is to to not have opposition. 492 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,120 And when the opposition comes, it can come in the form of being tempted. 493 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,200 You know, you can get drugs in prison. 494 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:11,240 Well, I was able to refuse all of those, but it can come in the form of losing people that 495 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:14,720 you love and not being able to go to their funerals. 496 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,480 It can come in the form of something like this. 497 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,240 I knew I needed to make amends to all the people I had heard. 498 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,420 And who did I hurt the worst? 499 00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:27,040 Probably my family. 500 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:35,280 I called my mom and literally within the first three minutes of talking to my mom, she said, 501 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,540 Mark, I forgive you. 502 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:37,680 You're my son. 503 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,640 You'll always be my son. 504 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,040 I couldn't call my dad. 505 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,720 He was still working for the government. 506 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:46,720 He was back in Washington, D.C. 507 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:52,240 So I wrote him a letter and never heard from him. 508 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:58,060 Two and a half, three years, every letter just never heard back. 509 00:35:58,060 --> 00:35:59,800 My parents were divorced by then. 510 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,760 My sister, my best friend, the one who had never given up on me when I was in prison 511 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,240 the first time, every single letter was returned to sender. 512 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:13,840 Once in a while, that letter didn't come back, but no answer. 513 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,680 And I talked to my mom who lived close to her in southern Arizona and she goes, no, 514 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,440 she's just too hurt. 515 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,320 You're going to have to give her time. 516 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920 I don't know if she'll ever come there. 517 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,520 And five and a half years that went on. 518 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080 And finally, I went to the pro board after five and a half years. 519 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,440 I'm down in the Gunnison prison by then. 520 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:43,560 And I see it's my parole hearing and I see my mom walking in and I go, how did mom get 521 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:44,560 here? 522 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,440 She doesn't even like driving to the grocery store. 523 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,960 She was in her 70s by then. 524 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,000 And then I see my sister walking in behind her and I realized my sister had driven my 525 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,560 mom that 800 miles from southern Arizona for my parole hearing. 526 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,320 My sister looked at me and she gave me a little half smile and a little half wink. 527 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:09,920 But I knew the door had become open and I had begged God for years to be able to make 528 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,240 amends to the people I had hurt the worst. 529 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:21,760 And by the time I got out of prison, my sister was writing to me regularly. 530 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:29,840 I've had so many moments in which I've begged to know that God has forgiven me and that 531 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,240 I can become the person he created me to be. 532 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:38,280 And I could talk until the sun comes up about all of those, but I'd like to only share a 533 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,120 couple with you. 534 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,480 One was when our son was at Sarah Park Elementary. 535 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,240 It took almost eight years to have a kid and then he was born on Christmas morning. 536 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,720 And when he was in third grade, he came home right at the beginning of the year and said, 537 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,600 we have this assembly, it's called Watchdog Dads. 538 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,600 And come on, dad, it's me and you. 539 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:03,800 So I went down to the school and I'm hearing this music thumping from the cafeteria. 540 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:09,280 It's the Rocky theme song, I Have the Tiger by Survivor. 541 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,520 And as you walk in, they hand you Coca-Cola and pizza. 542 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,380 And I was saying, okay, I can do this, whatever it is they want me to do. 543 00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:20,300 And they want you to be volunteers in the school. 544 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:24,800 And you know, they need more dads, because they're almost all just women who work at 545 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,800 the school. 546 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,200 They need dads in the kids' lives. 547 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,200 And I said, sure, sign me up. 548 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,520 And I'm filling out the application. 549 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,840 I don't need much more incentive because my boy wanted me to be there. 550 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,640 And I get to the last line of the application and it says, background check require $20 551 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,280 felons need not apply. 552 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,820 And I had to turn to my son and say, Ammon, you know, I'm a felon. 553 00:38:48,820 --> 00:38:49,960 What does that mean, dad? 554 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:50,960 I've been in prison. 555 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,160 Oh, yeah, I know that. 556 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,000 But no, this is what you're supposed to do. 557 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,440 And I said, they won't let me. 558 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,200 And he asked me like four times. 559 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,840 And do you know how that makes a dad feel when you can't do something really good that 560 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,280 their son wants them to do? 561 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,760 It's not a good feeling. 562 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,000 And some of that shame starts to come back again. 563 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,080 And even though I recompense in multiple ways, helping coaches, basketball team and helping 564 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,040 coaches baseball team the next spring, it's still stuck with me. 565 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,240 And the next year, beginning of fourth grade, same assembly. 566 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,200 And he goes, Dad, this is your year. 567 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,440 And I said, go get the application, bring it back. 568 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,720 It's the same application. 569 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:37,240 And I said, son, I really want to do this, but they won't let me. 570 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,160 And I'll never forget the look in his eye. 571 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:46,600 It was maybe two days, three days later, and it was still sticking with me. 572 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:53,800 That kind of dripping shame that God, why did I screw up my life so bad? 573 00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:05,000 That I can't do what you want me to do and be who you want me to be because of my past. 574 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,340 And in the middle of that, I got a phone call from his principal. 575 00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:10,720 She could tell I was driving. 576 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:12,520 She asked me to pull over. 577 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,400 And I remember saying literally, okay, what happened? 578 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,560 Because yeah, he was in my office. 579 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:19,880 You thought Emin was in trouble. 580 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:20,880 I really did. 581 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:21,880 I thought he was in trouble. 582 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,680 I knew he was, he's a good kid, but you know, principals don't call parents and tell you 583 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,600 to pull over for a little light thing. 584 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,160 And she goes, Mr. Miner, your son was in my office. 585 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,200 And he said, I want my dad to be a watchdog dad. 586 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,560 And she goes, oh, well, that's great. 587 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:42,720 Here's the application. 588 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:44,000 Bring it back with the $20. 589 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,540 The training starts next week. 590 00:40:46,540 --> 00:40:49,280 You don't understand Mrs. Boletti. 591 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,080 My dad's been in prison before, but he's not that man anymore. 592 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,080 There was a little pause. 593 00:40:55,080 --> 00:41:01,040 And then Mrs. Boletti says, Mr. Miner, I've done my background check and you're approved. 594 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,400 You are the kind of dad we want in our school. 595 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,120 Now you still owe me the 20 bucks. 596 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,760 And that broke the tears because I was, I was sobbing by then. 597 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,720 I had marvelous experiences for the next three years, five or six full days a year in all 598 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:18,840 the classrooms. 599 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,480 By the time sixth grade rolled around, Ammon didn't want me in his classroom quite as 600 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,560 often. 601 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,400 So I would go to all the different classrooms and out on the playground, the lunchroom, 602 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,560 the library, the hallways. 603 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,520 But this is where God spoke to me. 604 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,760 I was with the kindergartners and those little young five and six year olds get their love 605 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,040 all over you. 606 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,440 I was helping them with their reading out in the hallway one by one. 607 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,320 And this one little boy, Johnny had done so well and I said to him, Johnny, you did so 608 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:50,320 good today. 609 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,080 Thanks for reading to me. 610 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,080 And he was at the door. 611 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,360 He turned around and ran back with this huge smile and he hugged me around the knees as 612 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,100 he looked up and he says, I love you, Mr. Miner. 613 00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:06,360 And I felt the spirit say, you know, those labels you've hung on yourself for all these 614 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:12,320 years, all this shame, all this unresolved guilt. 615 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,480 He says, why don't you try this on? 616 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,200 You are a dad now. 617 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:18,200 You're a coach. 618 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,200 You're a businessman. 619 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,680 You're a husband. 620 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,000 You're a citizen. 621 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,840 You're a missionary and you are mine. 622 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:32,920 And the spirit just washed over me to such an extent that the only way I can really describe 623 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:40,920 it is to say it's almost as if God and the Savior put this Teflon coat on my soul that 624 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:51,200 doesn't allow sin and shame and guilt to attach quite so readily because I know who I am now. 625 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:59,300 I have been redeemed by a very personal, dear Redeemer who is relentless in how he comes 626 00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:02,960 after me again and again. 627 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,120 And he has refined my understanding of what repentance really is. 628 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:13,680 Repentance used to be kind of a heavy, even a foreboding word for me, a concept that was 629 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:20,920 kind of like, well, I got a strap on this semi-load behind me and lug this down the 630 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,720 road until I've paid the price. 631 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:28,760 And I realized I was completely wrong about repentance. 632 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,840 Repentance is simply recognizing that we're doing wrong. 633 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:43,880 And we've made a wrong choice and we turn to the right choice and he who makes it right. 634 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:49,860 It's a change in orientation in which we just realign our heart with God. 635 00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:56,560 And he's willing and anxious to embrace me as I do that. 636 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,320 It's not where we've been, Mark. 637 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,500 It's the direction that we face. 638 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:07,200 Not only that, Mark, you talk about he helped you see who you are, but in a very real way 639 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,440 too, he through his son Jesus Christ has helped you see whose you are. 640 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,520 We talk a lot about that in this podcast. 641 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:21,960 Who we are and whose we are are some of the, and arguably, probably the most important 642 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,740 things that we can know here because once that's happened, then we can have this experience 643 00:44:26,740 --> 00:44:33,320 like you have explained, this change of heart, this change of the natural creature to something 644 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:34,480 much more beautiful. 645 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,980 I hear you singing the song of his redeeming love because Jesus Christ descended below 646 00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:42,760 all of these things for you, for me. 647 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:48,080 It helps you to know who you are, but even more importantly, that you're his and whose 648 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,080 you are. 649 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,160 Yes, that you bring up the essential point of the whole thing. 650 00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:01,120 And not too long ago, I get many chances to speak in schools and 12-step recovery centers, 651 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:08,200 meetings, and I was invited to tell my story at, and then they told me it was going to 652 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,960 be more than a thousand people and they gave me the list of all the people who had spoken 653 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,160 there before and it was some of the best and the brightest. 654 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:20,120 Elder Bednar was on the list and Elder Holland, and really, I'm going to follow Elder Holland? 655 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,760 Come on. 656 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:29,360 But I had already agreed to it and in the middle of my preparation, I make a mistake. 657 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,240 I work a pretty good program except for when I don't. 658 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,360 And this was one of those moments that I didn't. 659 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:36,800 And I don't remember what it was. 660 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,400 It could have been a moment of anger. 661 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,220 It could have been a lustful thought. 662 00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:44,460 Whatever it was, it wasn't drugs or alcohol, but it caused me to lose the spirit. 663 00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:48,320 And I'm used to having the spirit nearly all the time. 664 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,040 And when I lose the spirit, I feel devastated. 665 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,320 And Satan comes rushing in with all the storm troopers in those moments and I dropped to 666 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:02,200 my knees and I was begging God, saying, God, I don't know why I did what I did, but I'm 667 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,600 so sorry. 668 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,800 And I felt the Savior come into the room of my mind and He looked at me and He put His 669 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,320 arms out wide and He says, come. 670 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,280 And I cast my head down in shame and I said, I can't. 671 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,280 I'm not ready. 672 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,440 I'm not worthy. 673 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:26,200 And He compelled me to look back at Him and He was looking in my eyes and I could see 674 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,960 Him looking deeply in my soul. 675 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,120 And He said this time, I didn't ask if you were ready. 676 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,680 I didn't ask if you were worthy. 677 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,640 I ask if you are willing. 678 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,460 And my spirit cried out, yes, before my brain could interject. 679 00:46:40,460 --> 00:46:44,160 And as soon as I did that, He was holding me. 680 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:51,040 He had flown to me and swooped me up and was holding me like a baby in His arms. 681 00:46:51,040 --> 00:47:00,880 And I felt His goodness and His purity and His power cleansing me, redeeming me. 682 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,200 And I felt what He was saying to me. 683 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,140 He said, remember this always. 684 00:47:06,140 --> 00:47:07,760 This is your pattern. 685 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,240 In me, you are whole. 686 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:11,240 In me, you are redeemed. 687 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:17,280 Now remember this forever and go forward and serve. 688 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:25,240 That's the essence of our objective on this podcast, Mark, is that individuals feel that 689 00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:34,040 they have been purchased through the blood of Christ, that they belong to Him and that 690 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:44,240 they have been ransomed by Him, and that He freely, without price, invites us to come 691 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:53,320 unto Him always, no matter where we're at, no matter how far down the stairs we may have 692 00:47:53,320 --> 00:48:04,360 fallen, He invites us to turn around and to begin to ascend back into His presence with 693 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,320 open arms. 694 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,720 His hands are outstretched steel. 695 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:11,520 Amen, brother. 696 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,040 Thank you so much, Mark, for being here. 697 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:20,600 And so good to personally meet you, feel of your spirit and feel the spirit while you're 698 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,040 sharing your experiences. 699 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,720 Thank you very much. 700 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:28,960 Mark, my love for you grows deeper every time I'm around you. 701 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:30,600 I hope you know that. 702 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:38,280 This has been a friendship that began 24 years ago for me, and I look forward to it reaching 703 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,040 into eternity, and I know it will. 704 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,640 And I know it already has, and I appreciate you. 705 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:44,920 Deb feels the same way. 706 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:50,680 Yeah, I truly believe that heaven won't be heaven without the people that I associate 707 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:56,640 with us on earth, and it's you, brethren, and the feelings that are here. 708 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:02,320 This is our foretaste of heaven, and Christ is my all. 709 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:03,480 And it shows. 710 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,840 You have received His image in your countenance. 711 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,440 It's easy for those of us who know you to see, and I think that it's one of the things 712 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:17,960 that, you know, in the rooms of recovery, we talk about attraction, a spirit of attraction, 713 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:23,360 rather than promotion, and Mark is the epitome of that attraction to following the Savior 714 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:24,760 and doing all things that are right. 715 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:30,960 Mark, before we conclude, is there anything that you would like to say to finalize your 716 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,800 thoughts and feelings here? 717 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:40,400 When I asked the Lord in prison, when I knew that He had literally brought me back and 718 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:50,920 saved my life, and He had instilled the gospel as my model in which to live my life, I said, 719 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,680 what am I missing? 720 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,880 And I believe what Neal Maxwell said many years ago, and I'll just paraphrase. 721 00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:02,900 He says, I will custom tailor and tutor each of you in your individual plan of salvation. 722 00:50:02,900 --> 00:50:06,720 We all have the same plan of salvation, but He personalizes it. 723 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:12,480 And He said, Mark, you need to work on humility and you need to work on gratitude. 724 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,520 And if I can stay in gratitude, then I got a chance for humility. 725 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,240 Yeah, that's for sure. 726 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:21,440 Well, we've said many times here, haven't we? 727 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,320 Gratitude is the beginning of desire. 728 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,740 And I know that's really true, and I think that's what you're describing. 729 00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:37,000 And I also, we've also said, Mark, you want to comment on this, that how do you know that 730 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,240 you're forgiven of your sin? 731 00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:50,480 When your gratitude for Jesus Christ and His Atonement is greater than your guilt of sin, 732 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,520 you should know you're forgiven. 733 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:53,520 Absolutely. 734 00:50:53,520 --> 00:51:03,680 I 100% concur with that, and the way that I know it on a daily basis is simply by having 735 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:04,900 the Spirit. 736 00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:10,680 When I say simply, I don't want to diminish how magnificent that gift of the Holy Ghost 737 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:21,200 is, but the Holy Ghost simply cannot abide unless Christ is first sanctified. 738 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:33,080 And the Holy Ghost is the messenger and administrator of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our life. 739 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,760 What a wonderful time we've had today doing this podcast. 740 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:41,120 I appreciate so much the opportunity that we've had to be here together and talk about 741 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,860 these things that are important. 742 00:51:44,860 --> 00:51:50,400 Their importance is paramount to absolutely everything and anything that we could endeavor 743 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,280 in this life, and that is our relationship with our Redeemer, our Lord and Savior, Jesus 744 00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:03,160 Christ, and through His power that is enacted upon us by the Atonement, by His Atonement, 745 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:09,240 and administered through the Holy Spirit, even the Holy Ghost, member of the Godhead. 746 00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:15,620 What a great opportunity we have to feel His love, to dissipate the shame and all of those 747 00:52:15,620 --> 00:52:20,080 other feelings that come as being part of a natural man. 748 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,840 And I'm grateful for that, and I'm grateful for your example. 749 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:30,120 And all these blessings, Scott, because we are sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly 750 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:31,120 Father. 751 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:38,480 Remember, as we go throughout the week to think about, and it's our challenge, our invitation 752 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:44,080 actually, our invitation to each of us is to think about where in our lives that we 753 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:52,240 are seeing ourselves in an inaccurate way, what labels are we wearing that are not cohesive 754 00:52:52,240 --> 00:53:00,400 with the teachings of and the life of and the death of and the Atonement of, the power 755 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:05,000 of rather, that comes through the Atonement of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 756 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:11,840 As we consider those labels, let's take serious consideration and prayerful consideration 757 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,480 as to which labels those should be substituted with, which are real. 758 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,640 We are truly sons and daughters, as Dave just said, of our loving Heavenly Father who loved 759 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:26,280 us so much that He gave His Son to save us, not condemn us. 760 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,240 Remember, you have been redeemed through His blood. 761 00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:32,720 We're grateful that you've been with us today, and we look forward to being with you again 762 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:33,720 next week. 763 00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:34,720 Until then, take care and may God bless you. 764 00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:49,440 God bless you.