1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,800 Hey there everybody, welcome out. 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,840 It's another podcast. 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,080 I have Dave here with me. 4 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:22,080 Good day. 5 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:23,080 We're here. 6 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:29,920 It's starting to feel a little fallish, more than fallish. 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:39,160 A little winterish and it's going to be a good season, holiday seasons up on us now. 8 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:43,040 We can start listening to Christmas songs soon. 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,480 Basketball season starts, that makes you happy. 10 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,920 Oh man, basketball. 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,920 We got everything, football, baseball, hockey, all going on at once here. 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,360 Yeah, this is the sweet spot. 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:04,120 Good time of the year, wonderful time of the year and so many things to be thankful for. 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,120 Yeah. 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,120 Thankful to be here. 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,680 Not the least of which is we actually will have snow coming here soon too. 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,400 In fact, we have a little bit of snow here on the Wasatch Front in the mountains of course, 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,000 but I have my ski pass Dave, I'm ready to go. 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,000 Oh cool. 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,800 I'm going to, I don't know what I'm going to do Scott without golf. 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,000 I've been golfing quite a bit this summer. 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,440 And I don't know how I'm going to, I got to do something physically active. 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,800 I'm going to have to go join a gym or something and play some racquetball or something. 24 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:36,800 I don't know. 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:37,800 Yeah. 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:38,800 I figure that out. 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:39,800 That's a blast from the past for you Dave. 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,280 I got invited to join a bowling league and I was grateful for the invitation, but last 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,720 time I went bowling, I did something to my knee and it popped and I- 30 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:49,720 Yeah. 31 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:50,720 That's a pretty rough sport. 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,720 You should probably avoid bowling. 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,400 So I can't even do bowling. 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,720 So I don't know what I'm going to do. 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:56,720 I don't either. 36 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,720 Well, I can always take you skiing with me or you could go- 37 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:01,720 Oh yeah. 38 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:02,720 That would really be good for me. 39 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,800 Or you could head south and do some golfing. 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,400 Just make sure you come back on the days that we record podcasts. 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaking of podcasts, we've got another one I think planned that's going to be great today. 42 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,600 So let's just dive in Dave. 43 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,360 Why don't you, I'm going to let you kind of intro. 44 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:24,240 I want to take a little time today if we can answer some questions that have been asked 45 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,040 recently and some in the past. 46 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,720 I won't necessarily read every question. 47 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:35,360 We've had several and I won't read every question, but I'll just try to answer some of the questions 48 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,880 that I've been pondering for a while. 49 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:44,920 Maybe start with the most recent, because I've had multiple people that I know personally 50 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:49,800 who have texted me or who have emailed us or communicated with us. 51 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:55,960 I shared a story a few episodes ago, Scott, that kind of I guess hit a nerve with people 52 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:02,040 about patriarchal blessings and talked about the young man who wasn't worthy to come on 53 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:09,920 his mission and he went home and thankfully he came back after repenting and really learning 54 00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:16,360 how to access the atonement of Jesus Christ in his life and completely changed and I knew 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,400 his countenance had changed and I knew he was going to be a powerful missionary and 56 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,960 he goes out on his mission and we write a few letters back and forth to each other. 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:31,080 I was his branch president at the Missionary Training Center and he wrote me a letter, 58 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:36,120 this has been several years ago, years before I was ever ordained a patriarch, and he asked 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,720 the question, do I need to get another patriarchal blessing? 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,380 Because when I got my patriarchal blessing I wasn't worthy to get it. 61 00:03:44,380 --> 00:03:49,080 And I answered back then a little bit of what I understood about it, which was no, you don't 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,320 need to get another blessing. 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:59,120 But now as an ordained patriarch, you know, I would answer that question probably more 64 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,600 completely, I would answer it probably more effectively. 65 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:11,120 And anyway, I want to just answer that question for everyone who feels that they either weren't 66 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,280 worthy when they got their patriarchal blessing or they were extenuating circumstances when 67 00:04:16,280 --> 00:04:20,720 they got their patriarchal blessing or they didn't really feel the Spirit of the Lord 68 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:26,560 maybe as much as they should have or could have or would have when they got their patriarchal 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,720 blessing for whatever reasons. 70 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,200 And I've contemplated that a lot and I know I've had different people that I've given 71 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,800 patriarchal blessings with. 72 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,680 I have known on occasion that some weren't worthy to receive it. 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,120 But I'm not their bishop and I'm not going to paint them into a corner and tell them 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,520 that they're not worthy. 75 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,680 I knew they weren't worthy. 76 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,120 But I knew the Lord had a blessing for them. 77 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,280 I wasn't their judge, so I wasn't going to say anything. 78 00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:02,680 And I never felt like the Lord was going to hold back on any blessings He was going to 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,680 give His children. 80 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:11,960 And the reason is, Scott, is because this is really important, that the Lord sees all 81 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,880 things at once. 82 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,280 He sees the beginning to the end. 83 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:28,800 And He doesn't base one patriarchal blessing upon such a small amount of time, even if 84 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,960 it was a person, let's say, gets their blessing when they're 17 or 18. 85 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:38,120 He's not going to base that blessing upon the first 18 years of their life as bad or 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,240 as good as they might be. 87 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,560 He's going to base that blessing upon their pre-mortal existence. 88 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:51,800 I think that affects their blessing even more than their first 18 years of this life. 89 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,680 And then He's going to base that blessing upon their life after they get their patriarchal 90 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:04,680 blessing for the rest of their mortal life, and even into post-mortality, that a patriarchal 91 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:12,640 blessing takes in all three of those periods of our life—pre-mortal life, mortality, 92 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:13,640 and post-mortal. 93 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:23,440 So, I know that God, who sees all things from beginning to end, is not limiting His blessing 94 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,880 upon an individual's worthiness or not worthiness. 95 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:33,920 I know what it does affect is whether that individual feels the Spirit or the power of 96 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,480 the blessing when they receive it. 97 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:47,960 But that does not mean that year or years or months, whatever, that they can't feel 98 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:55,240 the power of that blessing as they repent and get the Holy Ghost. 99 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,800 And that blessing, even if they weren't worthy when they received it, when they were 100 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:07,920 18, that blessing is their personal liahona, according to President Thomas S. Monson. 101 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,320 Patriarchal blessing is a liahona. 102 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:21,840 And that that liahona will work as their guide throughout their journey in life when, just 103 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:29,880 like the liahona in Lehi's day, it worked based upon their faith and their diligence. 104 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:37,360 So, based upon their faith and diligence, any patriarchal blessing an individual receives, 105 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,240 whether they're worthy or not worthy, can be a guide to them throughout their life as 106 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:49,960 they become worthy and qualify for the Spirit and influence of the Holy Ghost. 107 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:57,240 And I tell individuals who receive patriarchal blessing, Scott, that they should see that 108 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:04,600 blessing as a personal revelation to them, worthy or not worthy, and that that blessing 109 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:11,880 is from their Heavenly Father, and that they should not just focus on the words of the 110 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:19,280 blessing, the black ink on the white paper, they should focus on the white parts of their 111 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:20,760 blessing. 112 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:28,240 In other words, they, the Spirit, can actually reveal to them things in between the lines 113 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:29,780 of their blessing. 114 00:08:29,780 --> 00:08:35,680 And He can take a thought in their blessing, which may not mean a lot to them now, and 115 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:42,440 He can expand on that, and it will mean so much to them later in their life. 116 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:53,600 So, I gave a blessing Sunday night to a young man who was just so, so good, Scott. 117 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,040 I mean, the youth today really are so amazing. 118 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:06,600 I am just so touched by the power of the youth, and a lot of that power is a result of the 119 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,400 opposition that they face. 120 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,940 They have to be good. 121 00:09:10,940 --> 00:09:17,720 You and I, we were okay, but we didn't have to be as strong as they have to be now. 122 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:26,520 And this young man was just so good in his desires and striving, struggling to be so 123 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:27,520 good. 124 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,680 And wow, what a powerful blessing. 125 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:39,440 I asked him afterwards if he had any expressions or feelings that he wanted to verbalize, and 126 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:46,600 he got emotional and he said, I felt as though I was in the presence of God. 127 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,600 Wow. 128 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,600 How sweet. 129 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,960 That is so sweet. 130 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,440 And it did feel that way, Scott. 131 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,440 Yeah, I'm sure it did. 132 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:54,440 It did feel that way. 133 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,320 And that was because of his preparation and his worthiness. 134 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:04,560 And not everyone has that experience, but it doesn't mean they can't have that experience 135 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:10,600 and that that blessing was given to them not based upon where they were at, but where they 136 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:17,680 had been in their pre-mortal life, how valiant they were there, how God sees them, not only 137 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:22,400 now, but before and after and into eternity. 138 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,880 So live to be worthy. 139 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,260 If you weren't worthy when you got your blessing, live to be worthy of that blessing. 140 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:40,120 But God doesn't hold back on giving blessings and promises based upon a short time or, in 141 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,380 His mind, a short time of unworthiness. 142 00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:48,440 Why do you think that it is that we take on those beliefs of those types of things? 143 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,920 Because of my unworthiness, I don't have the ability to receive this revelation. 144 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,560 And, you know, we can expand that into so many other things, but why do you think that 145 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:58,180 we do that, David? 146 00:10:58,180 --> 00:11:02,120 I know there are multiple reasons, Scott, but I honestly, I think the biggest reason 147 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,780 is we don't understand God. 148 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:07,180 We don't comprehend His nature. 149 00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:11,200 We don't really understand His mercy, His love. 150 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:20,960 We see this immortal, sovereign God, all-powerful, all-wisdom, all-knowing, all... 151 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:30,640 And we try to...I don't know, we put Him into kind of a box where we think that His emotions 152 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,440 are like human. 153 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,640 Yeah, we talked about that, you know, and if we go back to like, I think, episodes two 154 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,280 and three when we talk about who we really are, and we get a glimpse of who we are... 155 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:43,280 And how God sees us. 156 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,360 And how He sees us, that only can come. 157 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,540 And then you said it, you know, through preparation, you just talked about how this young man prepared 158 00:11:50,540 --> 00:11:53,880 to receive his patriarchal blessing Sunday. 159 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:59,160 And you know, last podcast, we talked about preparing to receive the sacrament and how 160 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,920 that can be such a sacred experience that as we do that, I wonder how his preparation 161 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,720 for taking the sacrament was last Sunday. 162 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:12,720 That would have been just a sweet experience to have privy to have part in that. 163 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,240 But we can, we can have part in that in our own lives. 164 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:22,720 And I wonder how many people of our listeners just took a big sigh, like, oh, I'm so glad 165 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:23,720 to hear this. 166 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:24,720 I hope so. 167 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,920 Because, you know, as we qualify for the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ to be in 168 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,080 our lives, that's not a one time we do something and now we're qualified for the rest of our 169 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:36,080 lives. 170 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,560 It's a process and it's an ongoing experience. 171 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:45,640 When I say process, it's not a difficult to strenuous, arduous experience. 172 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,400 It's a sweet, loving, come to me experience. 173 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,840 We do begin to learn the nature of God. 174 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,840 Yes. 175 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,920 We do see ourselves as we truly are. 176 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,360 And as we do that, then we have that experience. 177 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,560 What a great experience for that young man, too. 178 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:04,000 Well, I just, you and I have talked about this in many episodes, Scott, but the bottom 179 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,480 line really for all of us, when we talk of redemption and when we talk of joy and happiness 180 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:17,040 and peace, I really think it is centered in knowing God. 181 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:22,640 And this is life eternal, or we could say, and this is a happy life, and we could say, 182 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:29,060 and this is a peaceful life, that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ 183 00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:31,080 whom thou hast sent. 184 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,080 Right? 185 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,080 John 17. 186 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,920 And that's Jesus saying that. 187 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,320 And this is life eternal, or we could say, and this is an abundant life, or this is a 188 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,800 happy life, that they know God. 189 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:56,800 Because if we could comprehend God, His nature, His character, His love, His mercy, His compassion, 190 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,800 it not only would change how we see God, Scott, it would change how we see ourselves. 191 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:02,800 Yeah, it would. 192 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,200 And it would change how we see the world. 193 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:12,480 In fact, Joseph Smith said, man cannot comprehend himself until he first comprehends God. 194 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:21,520 And it really is the great secret of life, and the joy, peace of life is to know that 195 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:30,600 we have a loving, compassionate, real Heavenly Father who lives and who loves us and will 196 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,860 do everything for us. 197 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:37,640 And He is not unmerciful. 198 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,180 He's not one who's quick to judge us. 199 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:47,520 When he speaks to Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, chapter 1, he says something about 200 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,560 who Moses is, but mostly he's trying to tell Moses who he is. 201 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:58,560 And this is verse 6, where he says, And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son, and thou 202 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,720 art in the similitude of mine only begotten. 203 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:10,680 And mine only begotten is and shall be the Savior, for He is full of grace and truth. 204 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:21,680 But there is no God besides Me, and all things are present with Me, for I know them all. 205 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:30,120 So that goes into your question about if I get a patriarchal blessing and I'm not necessarily 206 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,320 worthy, that scripture proves out what you just said. 207 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,240 God sees stuff, everything, from the beginning to the end. 208 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,560 All things are present with Him. 209 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,560 All things are now. 210 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,120 There is no past. 211 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,120 I know we can't comprehend this. 212 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,960 This is not a mortal thing that we can comprehend. 213 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,120 There is no time with God's God. 214 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,680 No, Elder Maxwell referred to that as God's eternal now. 215 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,680 There's no past. 216 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,720 There's no future. 217 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:08,720 There's no time that God, all things God sees at once, or all things He says here, is present. 218 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,080 So he tells Moses, Okay, you're my son. 219 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:20,680 You're in the similitude of my Savior, and I know all things. 220 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,320 All things are present before Me. 221 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,640 When I gave this patriarchal blessing Sunday, Scott, it was so sweet, because I never said 222 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:35,400 anything in that patriarchal blessing about this individual being a great leader, but 223 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,560 after the blessing was over and I asked him kind of his thoughts and feelings about the 224 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:53,760 blessing, this sweet boy, and I could tell kind of quiet and reflective and other characteristics, 225 00:16:53,760 --> 00:17:01,720 which I don't need to describe here, but I asked him what he heard in his blessing. 226 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:09,320 And he sat there for a minute and he looked up at me and he said, I'm a leader. 227 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,280 I never said anything about that in his blessing. 228 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,440 So revelation came to him. 229 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:22,400 While he was receiving the blessing that he needed to step up and that he was called, 230 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:28,200 that he was called, that he was foreordained to do some important things. 231 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,080 And in his words, that meant he was to be a leader. 232 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:38,000 I mentioned to him my wife, who's my scribe, and she was actually there that evening. 233 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,640 She didn't sit in on the blessing, but she was here after the discussion that we were 234 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,480 having after the blessing. 235 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:53,320 And after they left, after he and his parents left, I said to her, I wonder how his day 236 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,760 is gonna be different tomorrow. 237 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:03,480 I wonder how he's gonna be different at school tomorrow because of what he learned tonight. 238 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:12,520 I just think we should all ponder that, the way God sees us, the blessings and the promises 239 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:22,720 he desires to bless us with, not because we're worthy or not worthy, but because of who we 240 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,680 are in relationship to him and how he sees us. 241 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,180 And even maybe even more important than who we are, but whose we are. 242 00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:36,880 We talk about God through the episodes of this podcast, but we are his because we have 243 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,520 been redeemed and purchased through the blood of Jesus Christ. 244 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:49,200 That his only begotten Son in the flesh, he sacrificed for our benefit, for our benefit. 245 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,820 And if we could just understand that, Scott, and see not just who we are, but even maybe 246 00:18:55,820 --> 00:19:02,320 more important to see who God is, it changes how we see everything. 247 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,160 I just think that's just so important. 248 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:13,080 So I hope and pray that those who have received patriarchal blessings will see them as an 249 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:20,040 instrument of revelation in their life and use them that way, read them as their personal 250 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,800 scripture. 251 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:28,120 And I pray that those who don't have patriarchal blessings will desire to receive one to go 252 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:34,000 find out how they're not only related to their Heavenly Father and who they are and whose 253 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:41,240 they are, but they'll also, Scott, find out how they're related to Abraham, Isaac, and 254 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,120 Jacob. 255 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:48,680 I just think that's a really important part of their blessing, is to find out how they're 256 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:55,160 related to Abraham, and I shared, I think, a story about that several episodes ago about 257 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,640 the girl from Congo who I gave the blessing to. 258 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:58,640 Yeah, you know what? 259 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,760 Share that again, though, because that was so many episodes ago that... 260 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,760 Share that again. 261 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:12,220 Well, the sweet girl from Congo who had come here as a refugee, who had lost many members 262 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:19,700 of her family and had lost her tribe, and she came here and after being questioned by 263 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:26,400 an immigration officer, the immigration officer said to her, you sound religious, and I hear 264 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,520 Utah is religious, so I'm gonna send you to Utah. 265 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,120 I forgot about that part. 266 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,800 And so she came to Utah and she was adopted by a family in our stake. 267 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:44,480 I think at the time she was only 18 years old, but she already had a two-year-old daughter. 268 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,800 And anyway, she ended up joining the church after being adopted. 269 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,600 She joined the church like a year later, was baptized, and then she came to get a patriarchal 270 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,600 blessing. 271 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:04,040 And I had pondered and I had prayed and fasted about her and, you know, the week before she 272 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:11,680 came and I knew before she came by revelation that she was, who she was a descendant of, 273 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:17,320 and that she was of the blood of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 274 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:24,400 And when I pronounced her tribe, which was Naphtali, she started to weep. 275 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:30,280 I could feel her kind of, you know, shaking, her whole body shaking after I had told her 276 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,960 that she was a descendant of Naphtali and a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob 277 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,800 through the tribe of Naphtali. 278 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,760 And afterwards she said, Brother Durfey, can I pray? 279 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,280 And I said, sure, Julie, you want to pray? 280 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,320 Yeah, we can pray. 281 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,960 And she went to kneel down and I said, wait a minute, Julie, we'll kneel down with you. 282 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,720 Her parents were there and so we kneeled down. 283 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,560 And she said, can I pray in my language? 284 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,480 Whatever, I'm not even sure what language that was. 285 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,160 They spoke in Congo, I think they have several. 286 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,480 But anyway, she started to pray in her language and I didn't understand, and it was a loud 287 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:22,120 prayer, energetic prayer, and a praising prayer, and weeping, weeping, and a loud voice crying 288 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:23,680 out to God. 289 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:29,480 Anyway, I didn't understand any of it except the name Naphtali. 290 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,880 And she kept saying, Naphtali, Naphtali, Naphtali. 291 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:44,640 And after the prayer, we stood up and her sweet parents said to me, I think, Brother 292 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:55,520 Durfey, you need to understand that she lost her tribe and that in Africa, a tribe is everything. 293 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:56,840 It's really important to her. 294 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,760 That was a restoration for her. 295 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,120 And now she has a tribe. 296 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:07,440 And I don't think we understand and appreciate that in our culture. 297 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,760 I know I don't. 298 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:15,240 And it's really critical, I think, that we try to appreciate not only that we are sons 299 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,920 and daughters of God, but that we are sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob 300 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,640 through the covenant and that we are covenant children. 301 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,200 I love the scripture in 3 Nephi that says that. 302 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,100 You are children of the covenant. 303 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:36,720 We could even say we are the children of prophets and patriarchs. 304 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,640 And we need to see ourselves that way, Scott. 305 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:46,120 I think it really makes a difference in how we not just see ourselves, but how we live, 306 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:48,200 how we see the world. 307 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,660 So I hope everyone will love their blessing. 308 00:23:52,660 --> 00:23:57,360 But if they don't, repent. 309 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:04,200 Repent and come to love your blessing because that blessing is full of promises. 310 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,720 I just pulled mine out. 311 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,880 I keep it very close by me. 312 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,340 I refer to it pretty frequently. 313 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:17,020 This was given to me on August 22, 1982 by, you know him, and he's past, so I can say 314 00:24:17,020 --> 00:24:19,440 his name, Stanley D. Roberts. 315 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,440 What a wonderful man. 316 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,440 He was my stake present when I went on a mission, Scott. 317 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,440 I know he was. 318 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,120 Love President Roberts. 319 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:30,160 And this was patriarchal blessing number 114. 320 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,320 That's really sweet. 321 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,320 And those things can be such a guidepost, what they're intended to be. 322 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,200 It's so important, that personal revelation and that relationship that we gain. 323 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,960 You know, so much of what we have talked about over the past 30 some odd episodes has been 324 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,840 about relationship. 325 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,240 Relationship with our Savior, a relationship with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost. 326 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,880 We talked a lot about that in the last two episodes, all culminating in directing us 327 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,960 to the ultimate relationship because no man cometh to the Father but by me. 328 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,720 But with the Father. 329 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,640 To have that relationship with the Father, to understand His depth of love to the best 330 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,640 that we can even begin to understand it. 331 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,880 And to have those experiences and to go back and revisit those experiences. 332 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:19,880 I don't know if... 333 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,640 I may have been one of those guys that probably wasn't that worthy to get my patriarchal blessing. 334 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,120 Well, I don't think any of us were, Scott. 335 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:29,320 If we were a teenager, we probably weren't worthy to get a blessing. 336 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,040 I know I wasn't in 1982. 337 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,200 I know I wasn't either. 338 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,960 I know that was a big struggle in my life and I probably, you know, maybe even fabricated 339 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,440 answers to a couple of the questions so that I could get it. 340 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,360 But I've had that confirmation, not just because of conversations that I've had with you. 341 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:52,680 I had that confirmation for me back a long time ago when all my blessings were restored, 342 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,320 when I was rebaptized and all those types of things. 343 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,840 For me, that was, okay, everything's on. 344 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:58,840 But what I... 345 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,160 You have to get things back on, including every promise and blessing you were given 346 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,160 in your patriarchal blessing. 347 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,260 But we don't have to have that experience to have that experience. 348 00:26:06,260 --> 00:26:09,000 We don't have to have our memberships lifted. 349 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:15,760 We don't have to excuse ourselves or make decisions that alienate or separate ourselves 350 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,580 from the fold or from any of that. 351 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:23,240 We don't have to have those experiences and then have things restored in order to have 352 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,160 all of those things brought back to us. 353 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,800 Again, and we talked about this last week in some detail, and Deb and I will be talking 354 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,520 about it tonight in a lot of detail as we teach Institute, but the sacrament. 355 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:40,660 That's when we partake of the sacrament, that 20 minutes of the 10,080 minutes in the week 356 00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:46,760 that we commit to renewing those covenants, all those covenants and blessings are restored 357 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,000 and come back and we renew. 358 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,520 Including the Abrahamic covenant. 359 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:57,240 It's amazing to me how little most people know about the Abrahamic covenant. 360 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,880 In fact, before I give a blessing, I will read it with the recipient of the blessing 361 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:08,240 and their parents and review with them what the Abrahamic covenant is. 362 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:14,440 And it's something that we should make another podcast on sometime, is what is really the 363 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,280 Abrahamic covenant. 364 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:23,800 But as children of that covenant, that includes so much, Scott, that we should be thankful 365 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:24,800 for. 366 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:32,380 And it is not based upon a little period that we call teenage years, whether we're worthy 367 00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:33,380 or not. 368 00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:34,380 Thank goodness. 369 00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:35,380 Holy smokes. 370 00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:36,380 I know. 371 00:27:36,380 --> 00:27:37,380 Yeah. 372 00:27:37,380 --> 00:27:45,140 So, anyway, I hope that helps everyone to know not just about their patriarchal blessing, 373 00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:51,720 but being able to perhaps understand better the nature and love and compassion of God 374 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,440 and who He is and how He sees us. 375 00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:00,120 Yeah, that will have application in our lives in so many other areas additionally, in addition 376 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:01,800 to our patriarchal blessings. 377 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,860 I hope so. 378 00:28:03,860 --> 00:28:10,100 Other questions that we have received, Scott, that I think deserve little attention is kind 379 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:17,000 of the nature of Jesus Christ and His Atonement. 380 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000 We've kind of held on to these questions for a while because we were trying to get through 381 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:27,840 a course on repentance and forgiveness, but I am really grateful for those who have asked 382 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:35,880 questions about Jesus Christ and His Atonement and kind of how it works and kind of what 383 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,480 it is. 384 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:43,440 And I don't feel like I'm a great authority to necessarily answer those questions, but 385 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:50,360 I have made the Atonement of Jesus Christ a great study, I don't know, throughout the 386 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,440 last probably 30 or 40 years of my life. 387 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:06,500 And for some reason, I've been super sensitive to the questions that have been asked by myself 388 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:09,960 concerning the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the questions that students have asked me 389 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,860 in the 40 years that I taught in seminaries and institutes, and I'm really grateful for 390 00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:21,200 those individuals who are asking us questions as we do this podcast. 391 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,420 And maybe we can just talk a little bit about the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 392 00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:33,580 And I'd like to kind of begin by saying that there are different theories on how the Atonement 393 00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:41,480 of Jesus Christ works and what it covers and kind of what it's all about. 394 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,860 And I'm not always comfortable teaching theories. 395 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:53,060 Some of these are theories, Scott, that are taught by Christianity, not just by the Church 396 00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:56,520 of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints, but Christianity. 397 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,960 And I don't consider myself any expert or authority on that, but I have enjoyed throughout 398 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,880 the years really studying how others kind of see the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 399 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,760 And I think that there are probably three major theories. 400 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,680 I think there are as many as seven. 401 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:22,000 There are some fairly new ones, modern theories of the Atonement of Jesus Christ based on, 402 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,040 I think, our culture. 403 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,020 And yet, some of these theories are like ancients. 404 00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:34,980 They were taught by some of the ancient Christian fathers of the Church. 405 00:30:34,980 --> 00:30:40,320 And I think that they were somewhat based upon their culture at the time, too. 406 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:47,760 However, let me just review these three theories of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, or maybe 407 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:53,280 we should call them models of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 408 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:59,920 Well, before you do that, too, let's make clear that we are not advocating for or saying 409 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:01,280 that this is what we believe. 410 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,880 We're just simply laying out what these theories are. 411 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:13,120 We will tie into it how it relates to our restored beliefs, our restored doctrine about 412 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,120 this as well. 413 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:22,240 Well, I think what's amazing, Scott, is while we don't ascribe to all of them exactly, what's 414 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:30,920 amazing is how much truth they really did receive from the Bible and from the light 415 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:31,920 of Christ. 416 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,480 And I even believe the Holy Spirit. 417 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Not necessarily as the gift of the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Spirit teaches truth to anyone 418 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,360 who seeks it. 419 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:47,120 So I think it's pretty amazing how much we do have in common with these, even though, 420 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,160 again, we need to understand some things a little differently. 421 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,960 But one of the first models or theories of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is known as 422 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,760 the Christus Victor theory or model. 423 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:09,600 And this is the idea that Jesus Christ and His Atonement completely overcame death and 424 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:19,680 evil and conquered Satan, that man was completely helpless to defeat those things, sin in our 425 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:28,720 life and death in our life and Satan and his influence, and that what Jesus did in His 426 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:37,400 infinite Atonement was to disarm Satan, to defeat Satan, and it gave man power, the Atonement 427 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:45,560 of Jesus Christ, that through His suffering and all that took place in Gethsemane and 428 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:52,360 on the cross, that it gave man power to crush the head of Satan. 429 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,760 And you know, that's something that we hear in the Scriptures and even in the temple, 430 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:08,900 that Christ's Atonement, while the fall and while Satan may have power to bruise our heel, 431 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:11,580 that we have power to crush His head. 432 00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:19,400 So I think that's an important model and theory of what the Atonement of Jesus Christ did. 433 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:29,160 A second one is the Satisfaction theory, it's called, and this is where people believe, 434 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,720 and it's been taught, that Christ met the demands of God, and this is kind of where 435 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:42,240 we're different, is that most Christians, and I'm again speaking in generalities here, 436 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:50,160 not representing any, not really representing them, speaking as someone who's not an authority 437 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:59,520 and can't speak for other churches, but Christ, they believe, met the demands of a just God 438 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:10,240 and fulfilled His wrath by paying humanity's death, thus making reconciliation possible. 439 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:18,080 They believe that Jesus paid our obligation to what we owe to God and that it somehow 440 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,080 appeased His wrath. 441 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:30,880 Now we don't quite, we know that definitely Jesus Christ made a payment that fulfilled 442 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,800 the demands of justice or the law. 443 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:41,560 We don't believe that what Jesus suffered was the result of God's wrath. 444 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,840 I think that's just a fundamental difference between ancient Christian theories of the 445 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:52,760 atonement and what we believe, our model of the atonement of Jesus Christ and what's taught 446 00:34:52,760 --> 00:35:01,280 in the Book of Mormon, is that there is a law that God's laws were fulfilled, and that 447 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:07,120 God's laws were appeased, that justice was appeased, that the demands of justice were 448 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,000 fulfilled by the plan and power of mercy. 449 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:21,240 Some people in, I know, in Christianity, I've read about this in some of their studies, 450 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:30,760 are really troubled by this theory of the atonement of Jesus Christ because they believe 451 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:42,400 that God was almost like abusing His own Son because of His wrath, because of the sin of 452 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,400 others. 453 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,840 And when you think about that, that could really be troubling and disturbing. 454 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,920 That's not the God we know, or the God that we've talked about at all. 455 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:59,080 I mean, you know, because first off, it's the law that Christ is satisfying, not an 456 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,400 angry ticked-off dad, you know, who is, you know, by golly, this has got to be paid for 457 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:05,400 one way or the other. 458 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,200 You go do it. 459 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,440 That's not what this is, you know. 460 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,160 But what we do realize, too, is that it is God's law, but God gave us the law because 461 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,760 He loves us. 462 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,520 His law equals love to us. 463 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,800 When Jesus Christ was sacrificed, Scott, when He suffered, when He bled from every pore, 464 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:35,680 and when it went dark in Gethsemane, and when again these pains and the sufferings of Gethsemane 465 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:42,760 reoccurred on the cross, as we've taught and as the prophets have taught, all of that pain 466 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,960 and suffering that took place on the cross, and even worse on the cross because there 467 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,600 were no angels that were sent to strengthen Him. 468 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,600 And God eventually... 469 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:53,600 And He cries out. 470 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:54,600 ...will be there by Himself. 471 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:55,600 Right. 472 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:56,600 And He cries out. 473 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 Why hast thou forsaken me? 474 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:00,560 I love... 475 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,560 Elder Scott... 476 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,800 I still remember Elder Scott teaching about that in that statement, why hast thou forsaken 477 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:07,800 me? 478 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:14,280 And describing a heavenly Father who just had to like turn His face, not because He was 479 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,000 wrathful or that His wrath was being appeased. 480 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:27,960 It was just so painful for the Father as well to see His Son have to meet the demands of 481 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,800 the law and to meet the demands of justice. 482 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,560 And that's the way I see it. 483 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,600 And I know that's how the Restoration in the Book of Mormon teaches it. 484 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,680 So anyway, that's another theory or model of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 485 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:51,840 And a third one is in Christianity called penal substitution, which is that Christ was 486 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:58,200 punished on our behalf, that there needed to be a punishment. 487 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:04,880 This is kind of the judicial view or theory, model of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and 488 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:11,040 that the Court of God was... that the Court of God meted out certain punishment, and that 489 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:17,840 Christ was the sacrificial Lamb that fulfilled the punishment. 490 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,840 This is kind of where the propitiation and the advocation of Jesus Christ kind of comes 491 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:35,360 in where He pays the price or the punishment, fulfills the punishment for, again, God and 492 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,520 the Court of God, which demands that there be a punishment, not just a payment. 493 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:48,040 So those are the three major models of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the theories 494 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,120 of what the Atonement of Jesus Christ did. 495 00:38:52,120 --> 00:39:00,040 I think as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are so indebted 496 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:09,800 to and grateful for the Restoration because we learn in greater detail, because especially 497 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:16,160 in the Book of Mormon, how redemption works and what Christ did to redeem us through His 498 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,940 blood. 499 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:20,240 Living prophets continue to teach this. 500 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:27,480 I mean, we heard so much about Christ and His Atonement and redemption for those who 501 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,960 were really listening and who were willing to study the words of the prophets from conference. 502 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:41,360 Anyway, it's true that the finite mind of man cannot fully comprehend the infinite Atonement 503 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,360 of Jesus Christ. 504 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,720 I mean, it's incomprehensible, Scott, really. 505 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:51,400 And for whatever reason, and I think it's because we're mortal and because we can't 506 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,740 really fully comprehend it, but for whatever reason, other than that, God has chosen not 507 00:39:56,740 --> 00:40:04,520 to reveal everything to us about the Atonement of Jesus Christ and really how it all works. 508 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:13,320 But we've been blessed with revelations enough and Scripture enough to know how we can apply 509 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:20,080 it, access it, how we should enjoy it, how we should receive joy from it, how it was 510 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:27,300 fulfilled in joy, even Hebrews teaches that Jesus was able to carry out the Atonement 511 00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:32,480 of Jesus Christ because of His joy and His love. 512 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:39,240 And so, those are the things that I think need to be focused on even more than the different 513 00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:44,880 theories of what the Atonement did for us is how we can apply it. 514 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:52,040 And I love, again, what we learned from the Restoration because we know that not only 515 00:40:52,040 --> 00:41:00,520 did Jesus Christ and His Atonement overcome evil, which is again the Christus Victor theory, 516 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:08,240 and not only did He pay for our sins, which is the satisfaction theory, and not only did 517 00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:14,760 He take upon Himself our punishment for sin, which is the penal substitution theory, but 518 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:27,040 we know the Atonement of Jesus Christ and our Savior enables us, strengthens us, comforts 519 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:35,080 and covers us, cleanses and heals us, protects and perfects us. 520 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:42,160 We know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ there was reconciliation for the breach 521 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:49,040 of the law and reconciliation in our relationship with the Father. 522 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:56,280 We know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ offers compensatory blessings, that it transforms 523 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:03,500 us, that it changes us, that it ransoms, rescues, and redeems us. 524 00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:10,520 We know that because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ that He felt divine empathy for us, 525 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:21,080 that He advocates and mediates for us, that He offers expiation, reconciliation, and propitiation. 526 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,480 The Atonement of Jesus Christ did all of that for us and more. 527 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:26,960 It's infinite. 528 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:34,040 Ultimately, we know Jesus Christ redeemed and saved us and that He purchased us with 529 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,680 His blood. 530 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:47,000 All of this, all of this according to the conditions that we are born into, the conditions 531 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,000 of our mortality. 532 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,160 Dr. Ingekevitz, 4615. 533 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,160 Yep. 534 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:52,160 Yep. 535 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,480 So, I am just so grateful. 536 00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:04,640 And some of the questions that we have received about is someone once asked in an email about, 537 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,840 every time I sin, is Jesus bleeding for me? 538 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:10,840 Now, again. 539 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,840 Yeah. 540 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:12,840 Yeah. 541 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,840 Is He, every time I sin, am I hurting Jesus? 542 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,080 And again, we may have said that. 543 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:22,920 I think in the email, they said something to the effect that maybe I taught that or 544 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:23,920 you taught that. 545 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:30,560 Well, what we sometimes say, Dave, is that we need to consider how our sins make Him 546 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,360 bleed, make Him hurt. 547 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,800 And I'm not quoting it exactly, but that's the idea. 548 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,320 That when we sin, we need to consider... 549 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,680 That we cost Him pain or we... 550 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,680 We need to consider what... 551 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:43,680 We caused Him pain. 552 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,840 What pain that causes Him. 553 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,080 And I think sometimes that that's been misinterpreted to... 554 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,120 Not sometimes. 555 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:56,320 In maybe one situation here, I think it was misinterpreted that we were inferring that 556 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,760 Jesus is still paying that price, that He's still bleeding. 557 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,600 For what... if I make a mistake today, that it hurts Him today. 558 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,600 Yeah. 559 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:06,600 Yeah. 560 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:13,320 So, we just need to be really clear that we know that, again, because of the nature, the 561 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:25,640 character, the power of God, that Jesus paid for all the sin or sins of all the world through 562 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:32,080 His atoning sacrifice in Gethsemane and on the cross, and that all of that was paid for 563 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:38,160 there, on conditions of our faith and repentance. 564 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:44,920 And I believe, as Elder Bateman and others have taught, that when Jesus was in Gethsemane... 565 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:52,560 I mean, this is recorded in Abinadi's teachings in Mosiah chapter 15, that Christ saw His 566 00:44:52,560 --> 00:45:00,880 seed, and some people have interpreted that to mean that He saw what He was paying for. 567 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,200 Now only a God could do that. 568 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:11,600 It would take too much time for that to happen in a few moments, and only a God could see 569 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,240 all of that all at once, as He does. 570 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:16,680 There's no past or future to God. 571 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,440 There's no time to God. 572 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:25,840 Only a God, meaning Jesus Christ, could see all of that at once, what He was suffering 573 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:33,240 for, but that all of the sins and all of the injustices—not only sins, but injustices, 574 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:40,380 all of the inequities, all of the pain suffered by the sins of others, all of the consequences 575 00:45:40,380 --> 00:45:43,080 of all of the sins of the world... 576 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,120 Well, Alma 7, He descended below all things. 577 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,720 Well, that He... 578 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:49,720 Exactly. 579 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:50,720 All things. 580 00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:56,840 That He suffered for not only our sins, but our sicknesses. 581 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,840 Our infirmities. 582 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,440 All of that, Scott. 583 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:10,240 And that He saw it all at once, and that He made all the injustices, all of the inequities 584 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:19,560 and inequities, that it all came back into a perfect harmony based upon our willingness 585 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:26,440 to be faithful, to have a relationship with Him, and to repent. 586 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,440 Just qualify. 587 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,480 To qualify for the effects in our own lives. 588 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:39,480 When we sin now, right, we're not causing it new or any fresh pain or any fresh suffering 589 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,600 for Him. 590 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:49,640 He saw it and He contemplated it all at once, on the cross and in Gethsemane. 591 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:56,920 However, somebody in one of their emails say, when you talk about the suffering that we 592 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:04,360 caused Jesus, it causes me to feel worse about myself. 593 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:12,600 And I'm sorry if it causes an individual shame, because I think shame is something that goes 594 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,440 inward. 595 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:21,280 What I hope that in our discussion of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it causes others 596 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:28,440 to think outward as to what did Christ suffer for me? 597 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,800 And it should cause us a broken heart and a contrite spirit when we contemplate the 598 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,760 Atonement of Jesus Christ. 599 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:42,560 In fact, we taught, and the Book of Mormon teaches, that is the conditions of repentance, 600 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:49,440 that we experience a broken heart and a contrite spirit, that we experience godly sorrow, that 601 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,560 we experience guilt, and guilt causes us to feel pain. 602 00:47:54,560 --> 00:48:00,720 There's no getting around that, and that pain does nothing to pay for our sins, but that 603 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:03,180 pain protects us. 604 00:48:03,180 --> 00:48:07,400 It keeps us from sinning over and over and over again. 605 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,620 Guilt is not the same as shame. 606 00:48:10,620 --> 00:48:13,200 Guilt protects us. 607 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:24,800 Shame actually goes inward, and it causes us such negative feelings about ourselves. 608 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,680 Shame's demonic. 609 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:27,680 It just is. 610 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:28,680 Shame? 611 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,560 Shame is not from Heavenly Father. 612 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,560 It's nothing to do with anything to help us be better. 613 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,640 It's strictly a tool of the devil. 614 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,880 To beat ourselves up or to flog ourselves or to try to punish ourselves over and over 615 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,600 again because of our sins is not pleasing to God. 616 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,280 And that's shame. 617 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:49,280 Guilt. 618 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,760 Guilt causes us to run to our Savior. 619 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,260 It causes us to go to Him. 620 00:48:55,260 --> 00:49:05,560 It causes us to throw ourselves at His feet and to try to express in our remorse and in 621 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:11,760 our great gratitude our feelings for His atoning sacrifice. 622 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,440 That's what guilt causes. 623 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,440 And that's what a broken heart and contrite... 624 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,020 And that's not comfortable. 625 00:49:18,020 --> 00:49:19,640 That's not always comfortable, Scott. 626 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,240 A broken heart, it can hurt. 627 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:29,160 A contrite spirit isn't always convenient, casual, or comfortable. 628 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:34,720 There is some pain and suffering in repentance, and there should be, so that we don't repeat 629 00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:36,320 it. 630 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:46,360 But the real price was paid and the punishment was fulfilled and the demands and appeasement 631 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:54,760 ... All of that took place only through Jesus Christ, through His merits. 632 00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:02,920 Man can merit nothing of himself when it comes to meeting the demands of justice and working 633 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,600 out the price of our sins. 634 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,760 And all of that happened in the true Meridian of Time while He was in Gethsemane, while 635 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,960 He was on the cross and culminated in the resurrection. 636 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:17,280 And that's when it took place. 637 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,120 It doesn't continue to take place for Him. 638 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,120 Exactly. 639 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:22,120 Right. 640 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:23,120 Exactly. 641 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:30,400 So, I just think that it's important that we kind of clarify that question or viewpoint 642 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,920 that was expressed to us in an email. 643 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,600 I think another one that we received, which is interesting that I've reflected on just 644 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:44,280 recently, is the thought that, well, what about those who really do abuse? 645 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,480 What about those who really do hurt others? 646 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:55,960 What about those individuals who repent and they access the atonement of Jesus Christ, 647 00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:04,120 but they've caused all of this pain for others to suffer with? 648 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:13,840 Do we really believe that the atonement that lifts all of the justice of those individuals 649 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,840 who caused all of that pain? 650 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,140 And if we accept that, how can I ever forgive them? 651 00:51:21,140 --> 00:51:28,680 Or how can anything be made right if they don't have to pay for it? 652 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,840 I think I can summarize that question. 653 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:38,720 I think it was, so if somebody harms me, but I've sinned too, but because of the sin of 654 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,860 somebody else, I get harmed, but I haven't repented yet. 655 00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:46,640 The other person repents before I do, then how are they paying for it? 656 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,440 Where's the justice come to them? 657 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,720 And I don't think that one has to do with the other. 658 00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,480 I think these are two things that stand alone. 659 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,960 My relationship, so let's say me and somebody else is in this scenario, and I'm the one 660 00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:05,400 that feels like I've been harmed or abused or victimized in some way somehow, and you 661 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,160 all know how we feel about victimization and that word in general, but I'll use it anyway. 662 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:15,040 Let's say that I've been victimized somehow, but I'm not repenting, and that other person 663 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:22,480 repents and they are taking advantage of the offerings of the atonement of Jesus Christ 664 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,720 that come through the administration of the Holy Spirit, and they start to participate 665 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,720 and feel that, but I'm not. 666 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,160 What we're seeing here, we're seeing two separate relationships, David. 667 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,320 I have a relationship with Jesus. 668 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,700 That person has a relationship with Jesus. 669 00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:42,280 That relationship that that person has with Jesus is independent of the relationship I 670 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,440 have, even though maybe there have been things perpetuated against me by that person, but 671 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:52,160 because of the covering and the redemption of Jesus Christ for that person, Jesus actually 672 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:53,160 paid for that. 673 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:54,840 He doesn't need to continue to pay for that. 674 00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:02,200 I don't need to wonder, has he been or she, have they been adequately punished? 675 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:10,240 Have they been adequately exacted restitution or anything along those lines? 676 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,800 I need to be worried mostly about my relationship with Jesus. 677 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:21,880 Well, and to really understand the atonement of Jesus Christ and to have peace and to have 678 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:29,320 the power to forgive someone else and to, as Elder Anderson puts in his book, to remember 679 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:36,920 in peace, you have to understand the doctrine again of the atonement as far as what it covered. 680 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:44,680 And it not only covered the perpetrators' sins, the atonement of Jesus Christ covers 681 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:51,360 the victims' pain that they suffered as a result of the perpetrators' sin. 682 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:57,120 Now it may take great faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ to be able to feel the spirit 683 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:02,120 of that, Scott, but that is unconditional. 684 00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:09,840 Jesus suffered the pains of all of those who are abused and victimized unconditionally, 685 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:17,220 but they may not feel it if they don't exercise faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ or 686 00:54:17,220 --> 00:54:21,240 understand that doctrine. 687 00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:32,800 And if they did, they would be able to forgive because their focus is on Jesus Christ, not 688 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,080 on the perpetrator. 689 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:44,560 And I think that is a fundamental difference in how one should see the sins that we all 690 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:48,340 suffer as a result of others. 691 00:54:48,340 --> 00:54:56,720 We should let it go because of our understanding of and our faith in the atonement of Jesus 692 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:57,720 Christ. 693 00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:04,240 I'm not worried that somebody is going to be able to pay for it, and I don't think no 694 00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:10,120 perpetrator could in this life pay for some of the pains that they've caused. 695 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:19,480 And even if the death penalty were given and people were to die and be killed because of 696 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:26,520 the pain of others, or if they had murdered someone else, even their own life won't pay 697 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,800 for that, Scott, for that sin. 698 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:34,680 I mean, a knife for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, that's the law of Moses. 699 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:40,360 And the law of Moses is not the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and even in the law 700 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:46,480 of Moses it pointed people to Christ, that He would suffer, that He would die, that He 701 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,520 would suffer for all of that. 702 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,040 No human can. 703 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:54,040 Yeah. 704 00:55:54,040 --> 00:56:02,040 In our podcast here, in episodes 18 through 21, so there's three or four, whatever that 705 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:07,840 is, three episodes there, or four episodes there that can be very beneficial in helping 706 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,040 us as we go back. 707 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:16,040 We spend about four hours in total time, not just on that one subject, but in other things 708 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:21,640 that help speak to that to kind of help us wrap our hearts and our minds around that 709 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,400 concept with better grace and ease, really, I think, David. 710 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,240 And so, you know, Gang, I'm going to point, if you have questions about that still, and 711 00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:36,080 if you're, if you have any kind of, if we have any kind of struggle within us about 712 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:41,760 the concept of forgiveness and forgiving others and, you know, what about them paying, you 713 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:46,120 know, where's the cost, how do they pay, you know, and when we get caught up in worrying 714 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:52,840 about, you know, the perpetrator against me, making sure he gets his due, and we do, and 715 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:58,000 that's human, that's part of the human condition, that's part of the natural man sometimes that 716 00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,000 we deal with. 717 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:04,680 So, let's go back, we invite you to go back to those episodes, 18 through 21, and maybe 718 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:10,160 a title on any of those would stand out to you, but go back and review those. 719 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,520 You know, maybe to finish that thought off and to finish answering that question about 720 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:20,040 what about the perpetrators, I also want to make another important point, and that is 721 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:25,720 that we do not believe in cheap grace. 722 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:32,640 We do not believe that repentance is easy or breezy in these cases. 723 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:40,840 We know that repentance does take great effort, that there is suffering and there is some 724 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,680 pain in a broken heart, contrite spirit, as we have described, and that there may be some 725 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:52,480 suffering in the process of repentance, that God's grace is not cheap, that the thought 726 00:57:52,480 --> 00:58:02,520 of cheap grace was, I think, first kind of taught by a great Lutheran minister, I love 727 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:10,520 reading his works, D. Drift Bonhoeffer, and he talks about, you know, Christians, as Christians, 728 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,280 we don't believe in a cheap grace, and his latter-day members of the Church of Jesus 729 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,380 Christ, later-day saints, we don't either. 730 00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:23,900 We don't believe in a cheap grace, but that God is the judge and that Jesus Christ did 731 00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:34,200 suffer for even the worst of sinners, and that we should focus on that, not upon us 732 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:42,820 being the judge, not upon us being the jury, that God's the judge and God has paid the 733 00:58:42,820 --> 00:58:49,360 price through his Son, Jesus Christ, and that the demands of justice have been met and the 734 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:55,560 plan of mercy will be fulfilled for the perpetrator and for the victims, and the Atonement of 735 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,360 Jesus Christ does all of that. 736 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:03,440 And praise be to God and how grateful we should be. 737 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:12,880 If we would focus more upon the gratitude that we should all feel for that, it would 738 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:17,200 relieve so much of our pains and distress. 739 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:24,280 We've said before, gratitude is the beginning of desire, and I believe it is, and I also 740 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:30,520 believe gratitude is the beginning of peace in our life, gratitude for the Atonement of 741 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,000 Jesus Christ and the plan of redemption. 742 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,480 Yeah, I'm so grateful we know that. 743 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:42,840 And here's the thing too about victims and perpetrators, we're all victims, but we're 744 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,920 also all perpetrators. 745 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:45,920 We're all guilty. 746 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,000 We don't ever sit in a bubble. 747 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,320 No, no. 748 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:55,560 I had that brought to my attention just this past week of a situation where I had harmed 749 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,840 somebody in my ward. 750 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,320 Unbeknownst to me, I have a leadership position in my ward, and so does this other person 751 01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,560 who I love dearly. 752 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,480 And apparently I had said something, or not said something, but I had not met the expectations 753 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,520 of the other person. 754 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,360 I didn't know what those expectations were. 755 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,080 Doesn't excuse me, I should have known. 756 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:19,040 But I had been a perpetrator in that situation. 757 01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:20,320 I didn't mean to be. 758 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,560 I didn't do it because I didn't like that person. 759 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:27,320 I didn't do it because they don't mean an awful lot to me because they do. 760 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:33,360 And they serve in a way that nobody else could in that position in our ward right now. 761 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,960 Well, the bishop asked me, he says, Scott, how do you feel about making amends? 762 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,680 And I says, I can do that. 763 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,400 And they explained to me what had happened. 764 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,080 And I got that opportunity yesterday. 765 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,200 I had been a perpetrator. 766 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:49,360 And I didn't mean to be. 767 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,640 So we all need to take a look at that. 768 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,200 I have that conversation just yesterday too with a member of Alcoholics Anonymous that 769 01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:04,200 I sponsor that sometimes when we focus so much on that I'm a victim that we'd miss 770 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:10,040 where we have made others victims to our own selfishness or whatever the case may be. 771 01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,120 And I'm not going to expound on that. 772 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:19,160 But nonetheless, it's important that we realize that not only are we victims, but we are sometimes 773 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:25,280 and none of us are immune to this, but sometimes we are also the perpetrator. 774 01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:30,160 And so for that too, the Savior paid that price. 775 01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:34,240 For my perpetration, He paid for that. 776 01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:39,080 It's so sad, Scott, how there's this cycle of sin. 777 01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:50,520 And I remember appearing before a judge in the court of law and trying to advocate for 778 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:56,520 my son as a sex offender. 779 01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:04,840 We talked about that, this wonderful blessing in my life of this son who I love, who we 780 01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:14,840 adopted, who has feel alcoholism, who has bipolar, who has Asperger's, who was extremely 781 01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:24,000 bullied as a child in school and has so many challenges. 782 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:33,640 And standing in front of this judge in court telling him, you know, we're brokenhearted 783 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,760 by the things that our son has done. 784 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:44,860 But Your Honor, he is also a victim. 785 01:02:44,860 --> 01:02:49,320 He didn't choose to be a fetal alcohol baby. 786 01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:50,920 He didn't choose bipolar. 787 01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,640 He didn't choose Asperger's. 788 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:54,120 He didn't choose to be bullied. 789 01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:58,900 He didn't choose any of the conditions that were working against him. 790 01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:08,120 And I think there's this cycle of sin that the atonement of Jesus Christ can stop. 791 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:09,920 It can break. 792 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:17,120 And if we don't forgive others or we expect retribution and punishment in the lives of 793 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:22,280 others, it is going to come back to haunt us because we're all sinners and we're all 794 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,040 victims. 795 01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:31,800 And sinners are victims, and victims are usually sinners if the atonement of Jesus Christ does 796 01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,120 not come in and break that cycle. 797 01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:47,680 And that's the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, is that we can overcome, not necessarily 798 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,360 on our own. 799 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:50,360 For sure not on our own. 800 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:51,760 No, no, no, no, no, no. 801 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,420 Never on our own. 802 01:03:53,420 --> 01:03:55,400 It's really about the atonement of Jesus Christ. 803 01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:01,280 It's not really about us changing, but about us being changed. 804 01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:02,280 Through Him. 805 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:03,360 Through Him. 806 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,320 Who is mighty to change. 807 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:06,320 Mighty to save. 808 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:07,320 Mighty to change. 809 01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:08,920 Mighty to redeem. 810 01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:10,600 And I'm so grateful for that. 811 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,000 Let that be our challenge for this week. 812 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:19,600 Let's look for areas in our lives where we can see the atonement of Jesus Christ not 813 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:27,480 only healing us from the sins that are perpetrated against us, but also where are we seeing the 814 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:34,460 atonement of Jesus Christ heal us in the areas where we have maybe been the one that has 815 01:04:34,460 --> 01:04:36,080 caused the pain. 816 01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:42,160 As Alma taught in Alma chapter 5, the atonement of Jesus Christ has the power to change our 817 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,460 hearts. 818 01:04:44,460 --> 01:04:45,700 And that's what we need. 819 01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:49,720 And that's why he felt to sing the song of redeeming love later in that chapter. 820 01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,960 We need that power. 821 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,320 We cannot do that based on our own merits. 822 01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:56,320 It's a miracle. 823 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:57,320 Yeah. 824 01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:02,320 The miracle of forgiveness and the miracle to forgive is all possible through the atonement 825 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,520 of Jesus Christ. 826 01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:06,520 God bless you, everybody. 827 01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:07,520 Yeah. 828 01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:08,520 Thanks for being with us today. 829 01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,040 Time has gone by too fast. 830 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:12,040 And we'll... 831 01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:13,040 Always does. 832 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,720 We can talk more about some of the theories of the atonement of Jesus Christ maybe a little 833 01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:17,720 later. 834 01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:22,920 There's a few things I didn't mention that I'd like to, and we'll do that another time. 835 01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:28,000 Well, and as you can see, folks, as we've been able to sort of come to the conclusion 836 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:35,440 of the curriculum, if you will, of the course that we kind of set out to accomplish, we've 837 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:37,240 pretty much done that. 838 01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:42,520 And so this will now lead us into a different type of a phase, if you will, of this podcast 839 01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,920 where we will be able to spend more time doing things like we've done today. 840 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:52,200 We plan to go back and talk about a lot of the topics specifically and maybe take a little 841 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:56,620 bit deeper dive in some of those things or even just a review on some of those things 842 01:05:56,620 --> 01:05:59,920 because that can be extremely valuable as well. 843 01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:05,200 But a great opportunity for you now to continue to, and if you haven't done before because 844 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:10,600 you haven't thought to or whatever the reason, go ahead and send us those emails with your 845 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:11,600 questions. 846 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,520 Here redeems us at gmail.com. 847 01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,760 That's where we can receive those, send those to us, and we'll do our best as we... 848 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,000 Because I think we'll be doing more of... 849 01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,320 We have a little more time probably to do that. 850 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:25,680 We've kind of gone through all the chapters of Elder Anderson's book. 851 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,960 And we've kind of completed the course, which I taught for many years. 852 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:35,320 However, the course is never completed, and the application of the Atonement of Jesus 853 01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:44,840 Christ is never complete, and there's just so much more we can share and I think review 854 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:46,960 and kind of expand upon. 855 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,000 We might even start it over again. 856 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:59,600 I think every time I would teach, for example, I would maybe teach six classes in two days, 857 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,960 the same lesson, Scott, and none of those lessons were exactly the same. 858 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,440 And they were all different according to the individuals. 859 01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:15,000 And if we repeat the course, I'm sure it'll be some of the same, but it won't be completely 860 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,040 the same and we'll continue to learn along with our listeners. 861 01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:24,160 So I hope that that's something that we can have the time to do. 862 01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:25,160 I think we will. 863 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,840 And I look forward to this phase of the podcast as we go. 864 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,340 Don't forget to share with your friends and those that you love. 865 01:07:31,340 --> 01:07:34,080 Don't forget that we love you, we care about you. 866 01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:35,080 That's why we do this. 867 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:40,640 But most importantly, we hope that you understand that you have been redeemed through His blood. 868 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:41,640 Thanks for being with us today. 869 01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:57,800 God bless everybody and we'll see you next week.