Hey everybody, welcome out. This is episode number 30 of our podcast, Redeemed Through
His Blood. I'm Scott Durfey joined by my uncle, our teacher, brother David Durfey
Good to be with you Scott this morning and excited about what we're going to talk about
today and follow up on some of the things that we talked about last time.
So yeah, excited to talk about it as well. Again, we committed that this week we would
talk a lot more about retaining, how to retain the gift of the Holy Ghost. The last couple
of weeks we've spent time on how to receive and how to recognize this week. We're going
to focus mostly on how to retain, how to keep that gift with us, Dave. So where do we go?
And what we're really saying, right Scott, is retaining the Holy Ghost, who is the messenger
and the administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life. What we're really
talking about is how to retain a remission of sins. So retaining the Holy Ghost helps
us to do that. Yeah. Let's talk about what it even means
to retain a remission of sins. I think sometimes when we say that immediately, just like repentance,
I think a lot of times people are like, oh, I'm just so reminded of my sins and everything
like that, that it kind of may create a little hesitancy in our approach, for example, or
something like that. But I think that as we come to know what it really means to repent
and what it really means to apply or be covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ, I think
it helps us to know that if we go back several episodes and we talk about what repentance
is, and it's really an attitude, it's not necessarily, and we should do this, we should
think of each thing in our lives that need to be better and make those better, sure.
But repentance is really an attitude. And so with that attitude, what we are trying to
retain is that relationship as we have turned away from our sins and turned and embraced
the Savior Jesus Christ through His atonement, through the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, so that
we can have that peace in our lives and that healing that comes with it. And that's really
what we're talking about here. Yeah, I would say repentance is an attitude,
Scott, you're right. It's more than that. It's a change of attitude. It's a change
of heart. It's a change of behavior. It's a change of perspective. It changes our life.
Repentance is change, and repentance means to be changed through the atonement of Jesus
Christ. And I'll just say this really quickly, Scott, but, you know, I had a discussion many
years ago back in the Midwest with an institute teacher who believed that retaining a remission
of sins was like receiving medical treatment that would put your cancer into remission.
And that's the way he thought about it. He and I had a long discussion about it. And
I kind of reject that, because I see repentance and a change in forgiveness that comes through
the Holy Ghost as being a complete change of life, the newness of life, a born-again
experience, an Alma experience, the Sons of Mosiah experience, and that retaining a remission
of sins keeps those—those sins are gone. Those sins are away from us. I really believe
the Lord, when He says He forgives us, He really forgives us. And as Doctrine and Covenants
58, 42, 43 says, that He remembers our sins no more. Remission of sins can't be compared,
I don't think, to remission of cancer or any other sort of disease. Maybe it's appropriate
when we're talking about remission and recovery to talk about addictions. And this is kind
of the idea. You and I talk about this, I think, a lot. Once an addict, always an addict.
Maybe you can explain that from your perspective. By the way, Scott, congratulations.
Thank you.
Today's the day, isn't it?
Today's the day.
We've been talking about that date since we started this podcast back in April. And it
just so happens, and I wasn't thinking about it until I came this morning, but we're doing
this podcast on your anniversary. So maybe you can explain that, and maybe you can talk
about once an addict, always an addict, and what that means in the sense of the atonement
of Jesus Christ in the Gospel.
Well, I think that's great, because that actually goes hand in hand, coincides quite neatly,
actually, with retaining. And so as we will get into that. Oftentimes it's said, and thanks,
by the way, for the acknowledgement.
Well, congratulations. How many years?
24 years today.
24 years.
24 years of continuous sobriety.
24 years.
Yep, yep, 24 years. It's been a great 24 years.
It's amazing.
Yeah, what a rebirth.
But you're so old, 24 years is nothing.
No, dropping the bucket. It's just a small fraction of my life.
Yeah, 24 years goes by pretty fast.
Yeah, and you would know being-
Doesn't seem like that long ago.
And someone being seven years older than me would have a great perspective on that. Anyway,
so we talk about once an addict, always an addict. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.
Obviously, those things can be debatable, and they are debatable among some. They don't
seem to be that debatable, though, in the rooms of recovery. In those rooms, when I'm
there with other alcoholics, like-minded and all headed in the same direction, and to us,
that doesn't seem that strange. It doesn't seem debatable. We need to, as alcoholics
and addicts, and I will say we need to as human beings, we need to recognize that we
are just on a process in life where we move forward and we just keep moving forward. But
because of the human condition, which we talked about, came about because of the fall of Adam
and Eve, the fall of us all, we talked about that in very early episodes. And I think that
as we continue through and continue this on, we'll be bringing that up again here very
soon. But because of all of those things, it's not just a one and done kind of scenario.
And when we talk about a remission of sin, sometimes we think of it that way. But when
we compare that to being an alcoholic or an addict, an alcoholic is, this is a disease
that can be spiritual and physical. It's mostly spiritual. I mean, it is a disease of spirituality.
In the big book of alcoholics, Anonymous, for example, we read that, you know, one that's
in remission, okay, from their alcoholism in order to retain that. What it says is what
we really have is a daily reprieve based on our spiritual condition. And I think that's
true when it comes to, you know, I think that parallel can be drawn between what we do in
recovery and what we do in our relationship with our Heavenly Father through our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ too. But that's, I think, Dave, what that, that's what that means.
And I think that's how it relates.
Well, in recent, right, findings and studies and scientific research, you know, addiction,
even being more than a disease, being more than physical is chemical and literally changes
the brain.
100% accurate.
So when we say addict, always an addict, that may be true until that brain is, I believe,
miraculously through the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be changed back to what it was
then, then there may be some truth to that. But I believe it's not a great model to compare
addictions or addicts to just sinners and sin. It is true, we're all sinners. Once a
sinner, always a sinner because of mortality and because we're tainted by sin every day
because of the world that we live in. All of us see it, all of us have thoughts of it,
all of us are affected by it every day. So all of that's true. But I know personally,
and I know many others, you and others, know as well that there are some sins that be through
the Atonement of Jesus Christ, they're not just in remission, they're gone. They can
absolutely be gone and they're far from us, never to be, never to be repeated. They've
been completely forsaken and if we forsake them and the Lord doesn't remember them, they're
gone.
Yeah, and that brings up a question. I don't know if we want to deal with this right now
or not, but that's true about the sin, but the effects of the sin can last for a lifetime.
For sure, for sure. But that's covered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ as well.
Yeah, I think it's so important that we learn to differentiate between the two because the
effects are still evident in my life. It doesn't mean that the sin is still in me. And I think
that sometimes we wrestle with that mentally. I think that that can be an academic or a
mental or even more an emotional wrestle that some of us go through sometimes because how
can I be forgiven of a sin when those effects are still so alive and well? I see that in
my own life. I mean, because of the sins that I've participated in throughout my life, there's
a lot of effects that I have to be witness to sometimes on a daily basis. So that differentiation
can be tricky.
Well, that's where faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, that's where having an eye
of faith and being able to see the things as Christ and God sees them, that those effects
do have a limitation. They have a life expectancy and they'll die and there will be a newness
of life all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. They'll be gone to any negative effects.
And that even now, even now, some of us suffer the effects of the sins of others and we receive
compensatory blessings through the Atonement of Jesus Christ that cover us until those
effects can be completely removed from us. And maybe, I don't know how it works in the
next life, but maybe even in the next life we'll remember them no more too. I know it's
a gift and a blessing that we remember our sins and probably the sins of others so that
we don't make the same mistakes and we don't fall in the same traps as we have in the past.
It's good for us to remember. But I know that spiritually speaking, Scott, there have been
sins in my life that have been removed from me and that I still remember them, I still
have regret, but I feel no guilt. They are not a part of who I am. They are not a part
of my life. So, retain a remission of sins. Last time we spoke about what it means to
receive the Holy Ghost and I'm sorry, I need to apologize. I got a phone call from a good
friend of ours, family member even, who I made feel really guilty.
Who we love so much.
And he was being half serious and half not and I love him. But I hope I didn't make anybody
feel like they needed to be perfect in order to have the Holy Ghost. Because of my recent
experience in participating again in giving patriarchal blessings and because of the experiences
that I've gone through recently and how I've had to increase my efforts to have, I think,
the Holy Ghost with me always. I didn't want anybody to feel guilty or have any expectations
of being perfect in this life. I don't think we have to be perfect, Scott, in this life
to retain a remission of sins or to retain the gift of the Holy Ghost in our life. I
really do take it seriously when we talk about having the Holy Ghost always to be with us.
In every sacrament prayer, I think about that, I ponder that. That if we will remember Him
and if we will keep His commandments to be with us, that we will always have His Spirit
to be with us. And I believe for the most part, Scott, the Holy Ghost does always want
to be with us. I was, as a young missionary, I was really sensitive to the Spirit, as I
think most missionaries are, and I had kind of come to the conclusion as a missionary
that it's really hard to get the Spirit, at least that was my early experience as a missionary
because I probably wasn't worthy and I was struggling with my testimony and everything
else as an adolescent. Anyway, I found that it was difficult, a challenge to get the Spirit
and a challenge to retain it and really easy to lose it. That was kind of my experience
as a missionary. And yet now, all these years, some 50 years, almost 50 years later, I have
come to believe just the opposite, Scott. I believe it's pretty simple to get the Holy
Ghost. I know He wants to be with us and I know Heavenly Father wants Him to be with
us. And I believe, Scott, that it's pretty hard to lose Him. I mean, I know it's easy
not to feel Him. That's different. It's easy for us to maybe not receive Him, but I believe
He is always there, always present, always with us, and it's just up to us to qualify
ourselves to feel Him, to ponder and listen and to receive Him in our lives. That's how
I think it works. So, I don't think we have to be perfect or sinless to have the Holy
Ghost with us, but we do have to be focused. We do have to be focused and we do have to
really desire His presence to be with us and then focus our lives on the things that will
help us to recognize Him in our life.
Yeah. Dave, there may be some, and you know, there may be some of our listeners that are
thinking and believing everything that we're saying about this, but there may be also others
that are wondering, why is this even so important? Why is it so important that I have the Spirit
of the Holy Ghost or the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost? That almost sounds like
a dumb question to even ask, but I think that it's important probably that we address that
to some degree, especially in light of the motive or the motivation behind our podcast
in general.
Absolutely. I have lots of friends, loved ones, you do too, who don't enjoy or have
not received the fullness of the Holy Ghost. Scott, really, wow. I heard Elder Bruce Harman
Conkey give a talk back in 1981, I think it was April 1981, devotional at BYU, and he
said, you know, if you're going to air, he was talking really about this idea that was
going around then about having a special relationship with Jesus, and it was kind of putting the
Father on the oust and the Holy Ghost on the oust, and a popular book had been written,
and there were some things about having this special relationship with Jesus that kind
of, I don't think, settled quite right with Elder Conkey because he was—
I actually remember that.
Okay, well, I still have the talk in my file, and I think it was something about being one.
And he says in that talk, I'll never forget this, which I thought was the most important
part of this whole talk, was, you know, if you're going to air in a relationship with
the Godhead, you should air in your relationship with the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost
reveals to us the Father and the Son.
The Holy Ghost is a testator of the Father and the Son.
The Holy Ghost will teach us all truth.
If you're going to air in your relationship with the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, you should
probably focus more on having a relationship with the Holy Ghost.
And I think last week we mentioned, but I don't know if we did a good enough job, about
speaking about what it means to have faith in the Holy Ghost.
I really think that what that means, at the very least, is that we pray for the gift of
the Holy Ghost.
We think about the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We focus on receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Faith in the Holy Ghost is no different than obtaining faith in Jesus Christ, and that
is that we focus on Him, that we look unto Him in every thought.
I really know that if we are really sensitive, become sensitized by the Spirit and really
seek Him in our lives, that's how we exercise and that's how we obtain and increase our
faith in the Holy Ghost, is to live by the Spirit.
So as we do these things, Scott, we can retain a remission of our sins.
And it's interesting that that phrase, retaining a remission of our sins, is quite unique in
our restoration theology and unique in the writings of the prophets in the Book of Mormon.
It appears three or four times, I think, in the Book of Mormon, and maybe we can look
at those verses now, Scott.
Yeah, yeah.
So we have a couple of verses, right, in the Book of Mormon that talk about that.
Do you want to start with the one in Mosiah, Dave?
Yeah, let's go to Mosiah 4, 11 and 12.
I'll read it.
Mosiah 4, chapter 4, verses 11 and 12.
Now, there's a whole bunch around this.
If I were to sit down with this today, and after listening or doing this podcast, I would
probably just go through the entire chapter.
But this is where it begins in verse 9, where it says, Believe in God, believe that He is
and that He created all things, both in heaven and in earth.
And it goes on and talks about the importance behind that.
Now, we go to 11.
And again, I say unto you, as I have said before, that as ye have come to a knowledge
of the glory of God, or if ye have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love,
and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in
your souls, even so, I would that you should remember.
Yeah, let's pause just a moment, Scott.
So you ask, why do I want the Holy Ghost?
Great joy.
It brings us a joy that we can't experience in any other way.
I'm not talking about pleasure.
I'm not even talking about happiness.
I'm talking about a deep, lasting joy, and exceedingly great joy in your souls.
That's what the Holy Ghost brings, and all of these things are possible, including the
Holy Ghost Himself, because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is possible because
of the gift of Heavenly Father's Son to us.
So these three, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are inseparable.
But as you begin to read now, you just read, I would that ye should remember.
That is the first qualification to retain the forgiveness of our sins, is to remember.
And remember what?
Well, always remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and your
own nothingness and His goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures.
There's number one.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I'm going to pause right there for a second, too, because the
questions asked and have tasted of His love very early on in verse 11 there, and then
have received a remission of His sins.
How many of us, and I think that this is pretty common when I talk to people who are in dire
straits, you know, I'm currently working with several alcoholics as a sponsor in recovery
programs, and this is just one of the things I think that as humans we crave, without maybe
even sometimes knowing that, but that is to feel God's love for us.
And that can look like different things to each of us, but in anything positive in our
lives when we're feeling that, that's God's love being shown to us.
And so, tasted of His love, and I'm going to go back, and received a remission of your
sins which caused us such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that you
should remember.
And always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and your own nothingness and His goodness
and long-suffering towards you unworthy creatures.
And humble yourselves, humble yourselves in the depths, even in the depths of humility,
calling on the name of the Lord daily.
Calling on the name of the Lord daily, that's number three.
Here comes number four.
And standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken of by the
mouth of the angel.
And that is the atonement of Jesus Christ, because this scripture, the context of this
chapter is it's looking forward to Christ and His atoning sacrifice.
So it's saying there, standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, well,
we should stand steadfastly in those events that occurred when Christ in His last few hours,
days and week of His life suffered for all of our sins, paid the price, met the demands
of justice.
We need to stand steadfastly in the faith of those events.
Then, so that's four things, remember the greatness of God and our nothingness, right?
Humble ourselves in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, even
multiple times maybe a day, and then standing steadfastly in the faith of Christ's atonement.
And then verse 12 says.
And 12 is a promise.
This is great.
This is the promise.
And behold, I say unto you, that if you do this, you shall always.
And I love that.
I love when I read the word always, and it's followed by a word like rejoice, especially
when it's in a promise from a prophet, from God.
I love that.
And if you, and behold, I say unto you that if you do this, you shall always rejoice and
be filled with the love of God and always retain a remission of your sins.
And you shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of Him that created you or in the knowledge
of that which is just and true.
Progression.
We can always rejoice and we always retain a remission of our sins if we do those four
things that he talks about in verse 11, and yet we're still growing and in our understanding
and in our knowledge of the plan of redemption.
So I think Dave, too, also, if you go beyond just those two verses and you go to verses
13 through even, I don't know, for quite a while here through at least 16, it will tell
us and it shows us how that we can recognize that those things are happening in our life.
We can recognize by these few things that are that are taught here, whether or not we
have that spirit.
And so, for example, in 14, he says, you will not suffer your children if they go hungry
or naked, neither will you suffer that they transgress any of the laws of God and then
going down to 15.
But you will teach them to walk and walk in the ways of truth and soberness.
And it goes on.
And so this is the effects when we have the when we have the spirit with us and we're
retaining that we can know that that's happening in our lives by the way our relationships
are working, by the way our behavior is, by especially our relationship with our Heavenly
Father.
Yeah, and our fellow men.
We don't love our brothers than we don't love God, according to John in First John.
I heard an apostle once many years ago, Scott, he is in kind of a priest leadership meeting
and he asked a question.
How do you know?
How do you really know if a person is converted?
How do you really know if he's experienced the atonement of Jesus Christ in his life?
And how do you know if he's been forgiven and retaining a remission of his sins and
filling the Holy Ghost?
How do you know that?
And people raising their hands and giving all kinds of answers, Scott, and this went
on for, I don't know, several minutes.
And finally he said, well, I love all of your answers.
And they're all partially true.
But he said for me, the number one evidence that a person has truly been converted to
the Lord Jesus Christ in his atonement has the Holy Ghost, has received a remission of
sins and retaining a remission of sins, it is how they treat their fellow men.
I think he based that on Mosiah chapter four here, because he talks about the beggar and
giving to the poor.
And you know, Scott, it's kind of the litmus test, as I've thought about that over the
years, is how do I really feel towards my fellow men and not just those that I get along
with or that I have things in common with.
No, that's easy.
I'm talking about beggars.
I'm talking about the marginalized.
I'm talking about minorities.
I'm talking about majorities.
I'm talking about people who maybe I don't have anything in common with, including my
enemies.
Yeah, and that's the harder one right there, the enemies one.
I mean, it's not easy.
I won't probably go so far as to say it's easy.
For some it is, I think, to take care of those that are marginalized and take care of the
homeless and the poor and all that, but it's our enemy.
It's those that have offended us.
If we really have the love of God in us, which is what he just described, right?
That we will always retain, not only remission of our sins, but we'll retain the love of
God.
That's how we know we're retaining the remission of our sins.
What does that look like?
We will love others, and we will help others to feel the love of God through us.
That apostle, which happened to be Marvin J. Ashton, believed that that was the greatest
evidence in sign, and he was a great example of that.
Yeah, indeed he was.
Well there's another great scripture in Mosiah chapter 4, after describing the beggar and
do we impart our substance to others, he says in verse 26.
You want to read that one?
And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you, that is, for the sake
of the retaining and remission of your sins from day to day, I think that's important.
From day to day.
From day to day, every day, every minute, every day.
This isn't just a one and done.
This isn't just, again, retaining and remission of sins, but retaining the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
And the love of God.
Okay.
For you may walk, let me just start over.
And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you, that is, for the sake
of retaining and remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before
God, I would, that ye should impart of your substance to the poor.
Every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked,
visiting the sick, and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according
to their wants.
And then verse 27, see that all these things are done in wisdom and in order.
Well, I think that means we don't go around giving cash to everybody who's asking for
it, that we have to use wisdom, and it has to be done in order when we are giving to
the poor and giving of our substance.
I think that's a really important line, first line of the next verse.
But I think that we spoke about this some episodes ago, Scott, about this being an important
part of repentance, the very process of repentance.
And we talked about it in terms of making restitution, that the way we try to make restitution,
which is one of the really important parts of the process of repentance, is that we try
to give back to Jesus what He has done for us.
And the way we do that best is, inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, my
brethren, ye have done it unto me, Matthew 25, that amazing parable on feeding the hungry,
clothing the naked, visiting those in prison.
And that's how we make restitution, and we should be continually in a state of repentance,
continually making restitution, trying to serve Jesus by serving our fellow men.
This is an important part of the process.
This is not only how we receive a remission of sins, but how we retain a remission of
sins, a really important part of it.
Yeah, it is.
I'm going to take just a little bit of a diversion here, and we're going to go back into the
realms of recovery.
You know, when we have new folks, and I was new once 24 years ago, I was brand new.
But when we have new people come in, one of the things that is really important for us,
you know, first off, let me just say this.
The first three steps in Alcoholics Anonymous, or any recovery program, are the first one
is we recognize we can't, that we're powerless over whatever our addiction is.
The second one is that we believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity.
And there's an assumption there that we were once saved in order for something to be restored.
And for some of us, that may go all the way back to the pre-existence.
Well, you just described Mosiah 411, remember the greatness of God and remember your own
nothingness, you unworthy creatures.
Yep.
And then three, we make a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of
God.
Broken heart and contrite spirit encapsulated there.
But once that's taking place, and once somebody is in the rooms of recovery and in the
program and living this life, oftentimes it feels difficult because of the buffeting of
the enemy.
And for various other reasons.
A lot of it has to do with chemical, we talked about that, a lot of those things.
But what we have learned, what we have found early on, and we didn't find this, this is
an eternal truth, but what we discovered is an eternal truth early on.
And when I say we, I wasn't the one making the discovery, it was made many, many, many,
many decades ago.
But this was, and it falls right in line with what we're saying here, service is the answer.
If somebody calls me, and it's not every time, but if somebody calls me and they're just
really struggling, a lot of times my directive will be go get in service, go find somebody
to serve, go serve this person who needs that, go serve this person who needs this.
And what that does, we found, and it does, without fail, it will keep somebody, keep
their feet walking on the path of recovery.
But the reason it does that is because that aligns us with God's love for others.
It puts us as an instrument in His hands to show His love to them.
Therefore, we're feeling that love ourselves.
When we're feeling that love ourselves, then we're feeling remission from whatever that
might be that has taken us off track, and we now have His Spirit in our lives.
And then we can really start focusing on what that means and what that is, which is nothing
less than the Atonement of Jesus Christ at work in our lives, Dave.
Well, thank you, Scott.
Service is really important, and there's many ways and avenues and methods and means that
we can serve others.
But I'm thinking about all of the great born-again experiences and conversion stories that we
read in the Book of Mormon and in the New Testament and that we know about personally
in our lives and others, is that when you really experience that love of God, that remission
of sin, that forgiveness, and the gift of the—when you experience all of that, I think
the first desire you have is to share it with others.
And maybe the highest level or form of service is in the sharing of the Atonement of Jesus
Christ and ministering the Atonement of Jesus Christ in the lives of others, to be more
effective in ministering.
And what I really believe ministering means is not just giving bread or cookies, even
though I think that's a great way to minister.
But ultimately, if ministering is not attached to the ministering of Jesus Christ into the
lives of others or sharing the love of God into the lives of others, then it's not really
Christian ministering.
And so I love what you're saying, and I know that it's true when I think of Alma.
The first thing he wanted to do was to go preach the Word and share the gospel with
others.
And—sorry.
Enos.
And Enos, Scott, the first thing he wanted to do was pray for his brother in the Nephites,
and then he prayed for his enemies, the Lamanites.
Again, the greatest evidence that we have that somebody has really experienced this,
and perhaps not just the evidence or the sign of their conversion, Scott, but your saying
in what you just shared, the greatest way to retain that experience, remission, love
of God, is by giving it away and serving others.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
That's exactly it.
Because, you know, we were—you know, last—a couple weeks ago we said we can't do many
more things more Christ-like than forgiving others.
Well, maybe if there was one, it would be to serve others, right?
I mean, and that's—it's all part of service.
I mean, that's the whole purpose to which he was born, was to serve, to serve us, to
serve—and so I think that when we align our lives with his, when we strive to have
our will and our lives swallowed up by his will, their will, then I think that that's
how it manifests itself, is in the way—you know, the way we treat others and the way
that we serve others.
Yeah.
I don't want to embarrass you, but approximately, maybe you know, maybe there's a number.
How many people have you sponsored?
Because I think sponsoring in the right—the programs of recovery—
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Is an important way to do that.
Yeah.
I don't know how many it is.
I know right now I'm currently sponsoring about 11 men who are very active and working
their program.
Over the years it's been—I don't know.
And what a blessing to those men, but more so almost what a blessing to you.
Yeah, and that's just it.
That's why you've got 24 years today.
That's exactly what I tell others.
You know, when I'm working with a new alcoholic—and when I say new, I don't mean to be demeaning
or condescending anyway, but just somebody who has less time.
For example, I'm working with a couple of gentlemen now who are sponsoring other people
themselves.
You know, they have six years, seven years, five years, I don't know, whatever.
But oftentimes they'll call me with discouragement around what's happening with one of their,
what we call, sponsees, somebody that they're sponsoring.
Oh, how do I handle this?
And I just say, time out for just a second.
You need to remember the reason you sponsor them is for you.
That's how we keep the program in our lives.
You know, so we can't put a lot of energy in the reception of our sponsorship.
We can't put—we can't decide, hey, I'm successful or I'm a failure.
First off, we don't use those words, but we can't determine that based on the way a sponsee,
for example, may be behaving or misbehaving, as it were.
But you know, I always teach that, that, you know, it's important that you remember the
reason you sponsor other people.
That's for your program.
Obviously, there's benefit.
Well, keeping the gospel of Jesus Christ in our life is the same, right?
Exactly the same.
If we want to keep it or we want to strengthen our testimonies, we have to share them.
We have to bear them.
We have to give them away.
This is my experience throughout my life in teaching the gospel, is the teacher is always
more benefited than the students.
And we bear our testimonies to find and strengthen and to receive more testimony.
So it's the same principle, whether we're talking about recovery or—
Or ministering in the gospel.
Yeah.
Yeah, part of my stewardship that I currently have is a calling is I'm over the ministering
in our ward, and it's the same principle.
You know, if I can get the elders in our quorum to realize that understanding ministering
is just another way of me being like Him, being like Jesus, the way it's received,
really, the outcome of the ministering, or the perceived outcome, I should say, of the
ministering is really not what's important.
What's important is the actual act and the actual behavior and relationship with our
Heavenly Father and Jesus as we're doing it.
That's what really matters.
That's what's important.
As we go through the process of repentance and seeking to access the power of Jesus Christ
and His Atonement in our life, Scott, if we do it right, you know, we feel the love of
the Father in the sacrificing of His Son.
We are filled with the love of the Savior for the suffering, the price that He paid
for us, that He carried out for us, and we feel the love from the Holy Ghost, Minister,
Mercy and Grace and love into our life.
There's this principle, this principle of reciprocity in the Gospel, which is if you
give it away, it comes back to you.
If I give grace, I get grace.
It's called grace for grace, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93.
If I give mercy, sermon on the mount, then I receive mercy.
If I give love, Mosiah, Chapter 4, I get back love.
If I give forgiveness, I am forgiven.
There's this principle, the eternal principle of the Gospel that says if we will offer it
to others, it always comes back to us.
That's even taught, I think, in Ecclesiastes, you know, you cast your bread upon the water,
then it always comes back to you.
Yeah.
It's an eternal truth, and it's, you know, I hear men in the secular world talking about
that as well in the business world, you know, the law of the harvest and the law of reciprocity
and all those things, but it is an eternal truth.
We put that good out, and it comes back.
It'll always come back to us some way or another.
Oftentimes, for me, Dave, oftentimes it comes back in tender mercies that I get to witness
through members of my family.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's turn to another passage on what it takes to retain a remission of sins, and
this is in, I think, Verse 13 and 14 of Alma, Chapter 4.
The church is kind of struggling.
Alma's about ready to give up his chief judgmanship to go out and to be a full-time high priest
and preach the Gospel, because the church has become very proud.
The church has become very rich, and now there's great inequality in the church and out of
the church, and Alma makes this interesting observation in Verse 13 and 14.
He says, Now this was a great cause for lamentations among the people.
In other words, the inequality and pride of the people.
Others were abasing themselves, suckering those who stood in need of their sucker, such
as imparting their substance to the poor and the needy, feeding the hungry and suffering
all manner of afflictions, for Christ's sake, who should come according to the spirit of
prophecy.
Now, get this, Verse 14.
Looking forward to that day, meaning Christ's day, the day of atonement, the week of atonement,
looking forward to that day, thus retaining a remission of their sins, being filled with
great joy because of the resurrection of the dead, which hadn't even happened yet, according
to the will and power and deliverance of Jesus Christ from the bands of death.
So I think here's another key to retaining the gift of the Holy Ghost and to retain a
remission of sins.
We must look forward to the coming of Christ, His second coming I'm talking about now, and
we must look back and remember, always remember, the atonement of Jesus Christ to keep again
that commandment that He gives us in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 6.
Look unto me, He says, in every thought, doubt not, fear not, behold the wounds that pierce
my side and the nails of the prince in my hands and feet.
Scott, as we remember, we retain, and as we look forward to the coming of Christ, the
resurrection and the judgment of God and of all men, we can retain.
It's where is our focus?
Is our focus on our sins?
We're to retain a remission of sins when you're focused on your sin.
Our focus should not be on our sin.
Our focus should be on Jesus Christ suffering for our sins.
Our focus should be on helping others to be able to learn the principles of repentance
and the plan of redemption.
I think if we don't focus, then maybe we're being challenged in our ability to remember.
We're not remembering.
If we're not able to focus on those things, then we're really not probably remembering.
And then the other thing that comes into my mind, Dave, as we talk about this, to remember
that, there's a connotation there that we once knew.
So sometimes for some of us, that might be an invitation to get to know even better,
to dive deeper into that remembering or into that knowledge so that when we say remember,
to have that remembering, to enjoy that, to have that well and alive in our lives, we
really need to know.
We need to go back to and have that experience with, like you've often said, when we hit
our rock bottom, we need to really visit Him in His rock bottom.
We need to get a glimpse.
We do.
We need to get a glimpse.
We need to cry out.
We need to invite.
We need to live our lives aligned with His so that we can have this remembering in our
lives.
What a sweet remembering it is though when we do.
When our focus is on Jesus Christ and His atonement, when we go to the Garden of Gethsemane
and we see Him there and we go stand at the foot of the cross and we see Him there, or
if we could, to get a glimpse of all that He has done for us, it really changes not
just how we think, not just how we feel, but it changes our behaviors.
So I think that this is a really important aspect that Alma brings up to all of the church
about how to retain the gift of the Holy Ghost and remission of sins.
And on that point, Scott, every Sunday, every Sunday when we gather around the sacrament
table and we partake of that sacred, holy ordinance of partaking of the sacrament, every
time that prayer is offered, I think about these principles that we promise that if we
will partake of the sacrament and we always make this covenant to always remember Him
and to keep His commandments, then we will always have His Spirit, and that means forgiveness
of sin, to be with us.
When we have the Holy Ghost, we know the Atonement is working in our lives, so when we make a
covenant and receive the promise that if we will always remember Him and strive to keep
His commandments, that we will always have His Spirit to be with us.
And if you think about that, you know, a lot of times, and this is my experience as Deb
and I teach Institute at Young Single Adults' Stake at BYU each week, you know, one of the
things that comes up is, you know, the Atonement is great for my sin, but you talk about it,
they say this to Deb and I, you talk about this, Brother and Sister Durfee, like we can
use the Atonement to heal so much more in our lives, which is actually true, you know,
and so for those of us who are struggling with, and I'm not going to start listing them
because there are so many reasons and so many things in this life that we struggle with
personally and as cultures and as families and as nations and everything else.
Well, the answer to all of those problems, Dave, is having His Spirit to be always to
be with us.
All of those problems, not just our sins, I mean, that's an extremely important component
of it, but we need to feel His Spirit with us always so that we can deal with the loss
of a loved one, so we can deal with a child who may wander, so we can deal with some forms
of mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, loneliness, and I could go on.
Moment by moment.
That's it.
Every day of our life, we need the Holy Ghost to be with us.
Always to be with us.
To always be with us.
And this partaking of the sacrament, Scott, which is, I think, I think the brethren have
referred to it as the most sacred ordinance of the Church, you know, thinking back to,
I think it was the year 2000 or 2002, right after the turn of the 21st century, President
Nelson, who was then an apostle, gave a talk in a leadership, worldwide leadership training
meeting about the sacrament, and I enjoy reviewing that every once in a while, and he talked
about how to prepare to partake the sacrament.
I think Elder Holland also gave a conference talk on this not too long ago, a few years
ago, and they talked about being on time, going there prepared, looking, cleaning, cleaning
yourself physically, cleaning yourself spiritually through repentance, beginning Saturday night,
you know, and it seems like we used to do this better in the old days when I was a little
boy about taking our Saturday night baths and preparing for Sunday, and there's a beautiful
little primary.
Saturday was a special day.
There you go.
A little primary, right, song.
The day we get ready for Sunday.
About preparing for Sunday, and that we need to make preparation for it, and we need to
go to that meeting and that sacrament table, repentant and striving to be clean and to
receive the elements of the Lord's flesh and blood.
I mean, Scott, we would never be late for that meeting if we really knew what we were
doing.
Now, I know there's challenges with that, with little ones and circumstances, and I
know that, but too often times it's not really understanding the sacred nature of that ordinance
that kind of takes away from our preparation, and if we would really prepare for it and
go there expecting to take into ourselves and remember His suffering and partake of His flesh,
and then partake of that little cup of water which represents and symbolizes His blood.
You know, I've always found these verses to be really, really sobering in St. John, chapter
6, Scott verse 53, starting with verse 53.
He says, then Jesus said unto them, so these are the words of Christ, Verily, verily, that's
big when there's two verilys, verily, verily I say unto you, accept ye eat the flesh of
the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Who so eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life?
Wow!
And I will raise him up at the last day, for my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink
indeed, he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me, and I in him.
That's amazing to me, that passage.
That if we just, do you take that literally, Scott?
That if we worthily strive to worthily partake of the flesh and blood, the sacrament of Jesus
Christ weekly, that we'll have eternal life.
Yeah, I do take that literally.
And I haven't always perhaps, maybe I've approached the sacrament table with some casualness in
the past, you know, when I say in the past, I mean years past.
But recently, David, Deb and I both have just made a concerted, conscientious effort that
when the sacrament is passed, that we're prepared.
We be either fasted, and you know, we don't do that every week, and you know, and I hesitate
to get into what we do, because I'm not laying a pattern of righteousness here.
I'm just laying a pattern of what Scott and Deb do to prepare, or what Scott, I should
just speak for myself, what Scott does to prepare for the sacrament.
But I do do that.
My prayer Saturday night is very much focused on what will be taking place the next day.
And I'm not talking about the many meetings that I'm going to be in the next day.
I'm talking about that sacred moment where we take of the blood and we partake of the
flesh of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so that we can have this, so that He can be
with me, so that He can be with us.
And as we do that, boy, our lives are different.
In Malachi, you know, where the Lord says, you know, prove me now herewith, when He's
talking about tithing, and He's talking about paying tithing.
And you know, if you don't believe me, try me out.
That's what He means by prove me now herewith.
You know, I would say that that invitation should be extended.
In fact, I'm going to extend that right now to all of us.
You know, let's prove that out this week.
Let's, as we partake of the sacrament, let's go in just a little more conscientious of
what we're doing.
Let's go in just a tiny bit more prepared.
Let's try and align our spirits in our lives completely to be more aligned with our Heavenly
Father's will for us.
And I promise, because it's happened for me, and you know, we heard you just quote President
Nelson say it might be the one of the most, the most sacred ordinance that we participate
in our church.
I promise that because of that, our lives will and are different when we approach the
sacrament table that way, all because, all because of the promises that are there, that
we will always have His Spirit to be with us.
That's what we're talking about, David.
That's the retaining of the remission.
And we'll have eternal life.
And eternal life, which we know to be celestial life, living with Him and our Father.
Living with God.
If we just will prepare and partake of the sacrament the way we should, we will obtain
eternal life.
I know Jesus meant that literally.
And I know there's conditions to that, and it must be done in faith.
And we must qualify.
But what an amazing, I think it's one of the most outstanding, amazing promises in all
the Scriptures.
I made a video for our stake on the importance of partaking the sacrament, Scott, a few years
ago.
And I wanted to make this video in the chapel, which the stake president allowed me to do,
and the sacrament table there was set.
And I pointed out, you know, that what does that look like to you, those linens?
What do those linens remind you of when you look at the sacrament table?
I wish that our sacrament table, this is a personal thing, in the old chapels, in most
of the really old pioneer chapels, Scott, the sacrament table was in the middle of the
room, and was really kind of the center of the room in which the saints met.
And I think sometimes that we would be better served if the sacrament table was right in
the front, and that you couldn't, everybody's attention had to be on that sacrament table,
even before the priests, and even before we sang, and if people would just look at that
sacrament table, and those linen cloths, you know, I picture the Savior.
I do too.
Under those linen cloths.
The bread and the water under that linen is His flesh and blood.
It represents His burial.
Absolutely.
It represents Him, those linen cloths.
And then to hear those prayers, and one of the things that Elder Nelson said in this
Worldwide Leadership Conference was he talked through, I think, three or four paragraphs
on the importance of singing the sacrament hymn properly, with real worship and with
all your heart.
I don't know, but when I look around, I'm not being critical, this is just an observation,
but it seems like so many do not put all their heart and worship and effort into singing
and worshiping in our hymns, especially this is an opportunity for us in the future to
do better in singing and worshiping through the sacrament hymns.
I think that's really an important part.
Well, it is.
Elder Nelson.
Yeah.
That's the important part that was in our preparation, is how we sing the sacrament
hymn.
And then as we partake, after the priests have offered those prayers and given the covenant
and the promises of what we're doing, and I think it's important to point out that Elder
Perry, Elder Stapley, and others have said, you know, what are we renewing when we partake
of the sacrament?
We're renewing all of our covenants.
All of our covenants.
That includes—
You renew your sealing and temple marriage.
You partake of the sacrament.
How do you renew the covenant of the endowment, initiatory?
How do you renew those, by going back to the temple?
Well, you can certainly remember and recall and bless the others vicariously by going
back to the temple and doing it again, but for us personally, individually, we renew
all our covenants, temple, baptism, and all covenants.
At the sacrament table.
Yeah, we—
That's what we do.
I think if people understood that, it would raise their level of worship when they partake
of the sacrament every Sunday.
So when we go and we're prepared and we participate in the sacrament, I was in a meeting with
Elder J Jansen, who was one of the presidents of the Seventy a few years ago, probably been
ten years ago now, and he told a group of young single adults in a special meeting that every
time he partakes of the sacrament, he quotes this scripture in his mind.
And I'd like to share it with everyone.
It's in Doctrine and Covenants, section 110, verse 5.
So this is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the
Kirtland Temple, and he says in verse 5,
Behold, your sins are forgiven you.
You are clean before me.
Therefore lift up your heads and rejoice.
Every time Elder J E Jansen, who I have so much love and respect for, would partake of
the sacrament, he would quote that verse to remind himself and galvanize in his mind and
remember the power of that ordinance and the power and the efficacy of the atonement of
Jesus Christ in his personal life.
I don't do it every time, but I think about this often and often time we'll turn to it
and read it while I partake of the sacrament.
Behold, your sins are forgiven you.
You are clean.
Therefore lift up your head and rejoice.
Think how that could change our lives and our relationship with the Father, the Son,
and the Holy Ghost.
If we really felt that exercised faith in that, believed that every time we partake
of the sacrament, we're not sinless, but we're worthy enough to participate in that
sacred ordinance that our sins were being forgiven and the atonement of Jesus Christ
through the administration of the gift of the Holy Ghost was being administered into
our life.
That's how we retain the spirit and forgiveness to always be with us.
And that's actually the purpose of today's podcast is to help us to understand and to
know that.
I'll just real quickly mention this in episodes past that there was a period of time when
I had my membership had been lifted and because of that I was restricted in being able to
partake of the sacrament.
And you talk about people singing and preparing for the sacrament.
Some of the counsel that was given to me during that period of time as I was working so closely
with leaders in my stake and in my ward was to prepare as though I was able to partake
the sacrament, even though I wasn't, but to prepare as though I was.
And I did.
That was something that became a very, I don't want to use the, don't mean to overuse a word
like ritual, but it became almost ritualistic to me, David, the way that I prepared for
it.
There were certain things that I needed to do and I had to do and I wanted to do so that
I could feel what portion of the spirit would be available to me.
And I can tell you as you were talking about singing a hymn prior to partaking of the sacrament,
I don't remember very many Sundays and I tried to sit out of the view of most and I tried
to be as discreet, but I'm an emotional kind of guy.
I cry at chick flicks.
I still do.
But when the hymn in preparation for and as the bread was being broken and the sacrament
being prepared by those priesthood holders worthy and called and holding the keys to
do that, whereas doing that, it was very, very, very frequently that stream tears would
stream down my face as I felt my savior's love.
I just know that, you know, what you said in that council to be given that was given
is just so important and so true.
And you know, brothers and sisters, please take advantage, please grasp our invitation
this week, employ whatever it is that you need to to make the sacrament experience,
whether you're partaking of it or not.
That sacrament experience can be a sacred, holy, life-changing, and important component
to our entire week and to our entire life.
So we extend that to you and hope that you'll embrace it.
God, it's so—it can be hard to really focus during the sacrament on the things that we
should focus on there.
Even in our sacrament meetings, as reverent as I think they are, even with the little
children and everything else that's going on around us, it is just so important that
we eliminate as many distractions as we possibly can for ourselves and for others around us.
We be careful, really careful, how we use electronics or our phones, that we do everything
that we can, again, not just for ourselves but for others, to not allow any distractions
taking place during that meeting.
I'll never forget, this is in the Answers to Gospel Questions, I think, volume 2.
I can't remember what page.
This is Joseph Fielding Smith.
This is a quote, whispering during the sacrament is a sin.
Joseph Fielding Smith really believed that and taught that and preached that, that whispering
during the sacrament is a sin.
I can remember that for many, many years.
I remember with my little children trying to teach them that, that if we needed to communicate
during the sacrament, we would maybe find other ways to do so without talking, without
even whispering.
And unfortunately, sometimes it's not something that we're going to be judged by or it's
not going to take away from the power of Christ's Atonement or the power of that ordinance,
but it may be a distraction, if not for ourselves, for others.
So leaders sitting on the stand, and mothers and fathers and children and all of us, in
whatever our situation may be, we just need to really do the best we can to really focus
on what the sacrament is about and to think about His last week and His suffering spiritually,
physically, the blessings of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and all of the powers and
blessings and grace and mercy and redemption and enabling powers and compensatory blessings
and all that we receive in our life through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I even like to, now that I don't have children, I can bow my head and I can pray during the
sacrament.
You know, there's just so many things I think that can help us to really focus and to remember.
If we can't focus and remember Jesus Christ during the passing of the sacrament, how well
are we going to do the rest of the week to remember and to focus as we just made a covenant
to do in the sacrament prayer to remember Him always, that we may always have His Spirit
to be with us?
If we can't do that during the sacrament, the passing of the sacrament, how are we going
to do that the rest of the week?
Yeah, that's the whole point.
There are 10,080 minutes in the seven days.
10,080 minutes in a week.
Okay?
10,080.
If the sacrament takes 20 minutes, and that might be on the heavy side, it may not take
that long sometimes, but if the sacrament takes 20 minutes, that's a very good return
on investment in my world.
If I can invest 20 minutes so that the remaining 10,060 minutes of my week can be more, so
that's 20 minutes, so that the remaining 10,060 minutes of my week can be more aligned and
I can be more, I can be promised to have His Spirit always with me during that period of
time.
When you put it that way, Dave, it seems like an extremely small investment.
Wow.
Yep.
What a return.
I think maybe we should close soon, but I want to just remind all of us, because I always
think about this when I talk about the sacrament, is what the Savior did when He visited the
Americas, and the very first day, the very first moment almost, He tells them, gives
them the power to baptize and encourages them to be baptized and that there be no disputation
among them, and shortly after that, He blesses the children, and after He's blessed the children
and delivered some teachings, He institutes the sacrament among the Nephites in 3 Nephi
chapter 18, and when He institutes the sacrament among the Nephites, this is what it says,
He says, and this shall ye always do, the sacrament, to those who repent and are baptized
in My name, and ye shall always do it in remembrance of My blood, which I have shed for you, that
ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember Me, and if ye do always remember
Me, ye shall have My Spirit to be with you, and forgiveness, and the power of the Atonement
in our life, and I give you a commandment that ye shall do these things, and if ye shall
always do these things, blessed are ye, for ye are built upon My rock.
When we speak of building our foundations upon the rock of Christ, you know what that
really means?
To partake of the sacrament.
Christ is the rock, but we build our foundations upon the rock of this sacred, holy ordinance
we call the sacrament.
This is the rock, this is the rock of Christ, to remember Him by partaking of His body and
His blood, and I again go back to John 6, if we do these things, we'll not only have
eternal life, but He will dwell in us, and we will dwell in Him.
That's the significance of the sacrament.
So when we talk about retention and forgiveness of sin, the sacrament is really a central
part of all of it.
Yeah.
We could go on for a long time today.
This is an awesome topic, obviously one that we both have a lot of passion around, a lot
of conviction, and honestly, even more importantly than all of that, a great depth of reverence
for the ordinance of the sacrament.
I'm so grateful for it, I'm so grateful for the opportunity that I get each week to retain
the remission of everything in my life that is not just exactly like our Heavenly Father
and Jesus Christ, but to retain that remission through the atonement of Jesus Christ, administered
to me through His Spirit, which I'm promised to always have with me if I keep His commandments
and always remember Him.
So great to be with you today, Dave.
Thank you, Scott.
Thank you, everybody.
Do you have anything finally you'd like to impart to us?
No, thankful for the emails and any feedback that we get from our sweet listeners or any
questions that you have.
I know we're planning a podcast here in the near future to answer some of those questions
about different aspects of the atonement, which we'll look forward to doing, but grateful
for our relationship, Scott, and relationship with the listeners who have reached out to
us.
Yeah, as am I.
You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com.
Thanks for being with us.
We appreciate it so much.
Please share with your friends and others, and may God bless you.
And as you partake of the sacrament this Sunday, please participate in our invitation.
Focus and remember.
And remember that we may always have His Spirit to be with us.
That is our greatest and deepest desire this week, and we're grateful for you.
We'll see you all next week.
Thanks for being with us.