Well, hey there everybody, welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood.
In this podcast, we discuss hope, healing and redemption through the atonement of Jesus
Christ.
My name is Scott Durfey.
I want to be the first to welcome you out today and as always it's my honor to welcome
and introduce my partner in this project, our amazing teacher and friend, Brother David
Durfey.
Thank you, Scott.
Thank you.
Good to be here.
It's good to have you with us too, Dave.
I'm looking forward to a great podcast today.
Listen, before we dive into that though, I want to just, as always, send out an appreciation,
thank you to all of those who have been sending emails to us.
We've received several over the last little while and again, want to just tell you thanks,
encourage you to share with us your insights.
Don't hesitate to ask questions.
If you'd like us to ask and include your questions as part of our podcast, mention that.
We try to incorporate that as we go and so, you know, just ask that you continue to do
that.
You can send those emails to us at he redeems us at gmail.com.
He redeems us at gmail.com.
So last week, Dave, last episode, we had the opportunity as we're beginning to talk about
forgiveness as part of the repentance process.
We were talked about the shared, we remembered the experience of the woman caught in adultery
in John chapter eight and Jesus's response to that.
We talked about how being forgiven brings us closer to him and in all things.
We talked about mercy and it's kind of touched on that a little bit and how mercy, the mercy
that I give does not rub justice, but it fulfills justice.
And we're reminded that we can't suffer enough for the pain that we've caused others.
He suffered for all of that.
We talked about Cory Ten Boom and what a great example of forgiveness she gave us as she
had her experiences and so forth.
So here we are.
We're today going to continue a little bit in that same vein as we talk about forgiveness,
Dave.
So what do you, how do you want to get started today?
Well, let me just say something about your, your summary from our last podcast.
You know, I think it's not easy, Scott, to forgive others.
And we're really, we're really commanded to forgive everyone.
I had somebody text me a question, listener to our podcast, member of our family, actually
Scott who texted me about, are we supposed to love Satan?
Are we supposed to forgive him?
Are we supposed to?
And I responded with, so Jesus said that we are to love our enemies.
But when, when we use the word love, even, even as it's used in the scriptures, Scott,
there's many different levels of love.
Like there are many different levels of faith, like there are many different levels of hope.
You can never describe any attribute or principle of the gospel and say you either have it or
you don't.
The question is at what level, at what level are we talking about?
Or what definition of love are we talking about?
The Greeks had five different levels of definition of love.
You know, what, what are we talking about when we say we're to love our enemies?
And what are we talking about when we really say we are to forgive?
You know, I just think it's so important and we tried to explain this.
I don't know if we did a great job.
I always want to do better.
But forgiving doesn't mean hanging out.
Forgiving doesn't mean necessarily trusting.
Forgiving means that we're able to love them in a brotherly love sort of way.
Love is not unconditional in that case, but that we love them and that we're able to let
it go and move on.
I just think it's really important for people.
I don't know that we were strong enough in our last podcast to express our concern, empathy,
and love for those who have been abused.
And you know, earlier this month in conference, you know, there was some references to those
President Nelson's amazing talk, right, on how the Lord feels about those who have been
abused, and more important, those who have abused.
And the abomination that he feels towards those individuals.
Well, I know we've been commanded to forgive all, and God will forgive who we will forgive,
Doctrine and Covenants, section 64.
But we absolutely, I know for a fact, can forgive others and forgive them of their sin
and still feel abomination for what they've done and to not necessarily love them the
way that we deeply love our Savior or love our family or love others.
I just, forgiving others is a relative term when we say the command to forgive others.
It means really that we, while we don't forget what they've ever done, we may not ever be
able to trust them.
We may not be able to even be around them.
So awesome that Kori Ten Boom was able to shake her prison guard's hand.
I don't know that I could have done that.
And the only way she did, right, was because she said Jesus gave her the strength to do
that.
And maybe that's the final thing in recapping this, is that we really don't have the power
to forgive and we really don't have the power to let some things go.
But through the strength of Jesus Christ and through the mercy and grace of the Atonement
of Jesus Christ and with the help of the gift of the Holy Ghost, we can feel the love of
God for His children, which is the gift of charity that we should pray for with all energy
of heart.
And in feeling His love and trying to see others as He sees them, we can let things
go and ultimately have the power and strength to forgive.
So I think before we move on and talk about forgiving ourselves, as we will today, and
how to recognize and receive and retain forgiveness, we need to make sure that we have forgiven
others.
Right.
So right in line with what you just said about forgiving and sometimes the challenges that
can come, because I shared in the previous episode about sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous
meeting and this guy walks in and had created a whole bunch of havoc and just evil among
some of the members of my immediate family.
And the direction that was given to me by the guy that I was sitting by there, you know,
on how to handle that.
And you know, when we get more...
Tell us again what he said.
So what he said, what happened was...
I think it's so great.
Yeah, so what happened was it was about this time of year and we're sitting in a meeting
of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I had about six years, I believe, it could give or take a year or two, one way or the
other of sobriety.
But this guy walked in and this is a gentleman and it was really difficult for me to call
him a gentleman then and I still find my tongue thickening up sometimes when I say it now.
But even when he walked in, this guy had created so much havoc, so much evil among certain
members of my family without getting into any details.
If you can imagine something pretty rotten, well, that's pretty much in line with what
it is.
And as he walks in, I recognize him and the hair just stands up on the back of my neck.
You know, I had worked through all 12 steps and you know, it's not something that's a
one and done in recovery.
You continually maintain a program of recovery by working those steps because you know, as
long as we're human, we need to continue to do that.
And as I was doing that, this guy walks in to this meeting, first time I'd seen him in
maybe 10 years.
The back of the hair on the back of my neck stands up, I get a little bristly and my sponsor
at the time, John, turns to me and he says, what the heck is wrong with you?
And I said, I'll just tell you later.
Anyway, when the meeting was over, John pulls me aside and he says, Scott, you got to tell
me what's going on.
I said, John, I already know what you're going to tell me.
But he was aware of the situation because I had to work through that as part of my step
work was the situation.
And so I reminded him of the situation and he says, oh, that's the guy.
I said, that's the guy.
And I said, I already know what you're going to tell me.
You're going to tell me to go pray for him.
And he says, Scott, I'm not going to tell you to pray for him.
I'm going to tell you to pray for you.
He says, it's your relationship with your higher power.
And that's how it's referred to oftentimes in those places.
It's your relationship with your higher power.
So it's my relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that's important.
He says, you're not going to be able to fix that.
It's your relationship there that will make that available at least to you.
And I thought that was great advice.
But Elder Anderson also on page 225 of his book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, and
I read this in the last episode, but I think it deserves revisiting.
This is exactly what he says.
Forgiveness is not excusing accountability or failing to protect ourselves, our families,
and other innocent victims.
Forgiveness is not continuing in a relationship with someone who is not trustworthy.
Forgiveness is not condemning injustice.
Forgiveness is not dismissing the hurt or disgust we feel because of the actions of
others.
Let me read that again.
Forgiveness is not dismissing the hurt or the disgust we feel because of the action
of others.
Forgiveness is not forgetting but remembering in peace.
And we added, but remembering in peace because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Yeah, because you may think back on some things that have happened in your life and you don't
feel peace when you think about those things, but you can feel peace as you focus your thoughts
on Jesus Christ.
And not only—this is really important, Scott—understanding the doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ,
that He suffered not only for all the sins of all the world, but He suffered for all
the negative consequences, pain, hurt, and suffering caused by the sins committed in
all the world.
When people who have been hurt—and we have all been hurt, and again, my heart just goes
out so much to those who have been abused—those individuals need to remember that Christ suffered
for the consequences of the abuse that they have suffered.
And knowing that doctrine should help them to be healed and to be able to let it go.
I know that takes great faith.
That takes time.
That takes great faith and work on their part.
But I know that that is one of the great miracles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that through
Jesus Christ we can receive His power through the atonement, through His atonement, to be
able to not only let things go, but to move on.
Right.
And I carry that experience out, and I did not mention this in the last episode, so this
is kind of a continuation of that same story.
He kept coming around.
We'll call him Jim.
Jim kept coming around.
And eventually he approached me, and he extended his hand.
I took his hand.
We shook hands.
Not much was said.
But he apologized.
He says, I apologize for, and he went on to explain what he was apologizing for.
And in that moment I felt a little bit of a change, and it didn't happen overnight,
and it didn't happen in an instant.
But eventually over the span of maybe two or three or four years, he and I were able
to sit by each other in meetings.
We were able to have pleasant and friendly conversations.
He would call me on occasion when he was struggling and suffering to stay sober because of the
conditions that he had been through.
And you know, David, this is one of the things that has been, became very enlightening to
me through that experience.
And I've done a lot of study on this through things like the Arbinger Group, where we learn
to see people as people, and we understand and give them the benefit of the doubt, and
try to understand the reasons that they're suffering too.
And as I did that, I don't know why, but Heavenly Father was able to give me a glimpse into
the suffering of this guy.
And for whatever reason, that created a softening of my heart.
And I wouldn't say we became what I would call cruise-worthy buddies.
I wouldn't want to go hang out with him and go on a cruise with him.
But I could sit by him.
I could sit at lunch with him at a meeting.
We could have pleasant conversation even after the meeting.
He could, you know, tell me certain things that were going on in his life and ask for
assistance and help.
And I could do the same with him.
And it was really quite a miracle that Heavenly Father was allowed to be constructed in our
lives, both of our lives, because of the power of forgiveness and repentance.
And I just want to—I know you know this, Scott, but I want to testify to you and to
listeners that that power is not humanly possible to just create on your own.
No it is not.
That power or ability to forgive comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
At the very least, for those who are not Christian or believe in Christ, it comes through the
light of Christ.
That ability to love and to forgive and to have those feelings come through Christ.
I believe that in every instance.
And it takes great effort, I know, and sometimes time for that to—
Yeah, it definitely does.
Well—
Those things to be restored and healed.
And then I found out just two years ago that that gentleman has since passed away.
And I'm so grateful for him and for me, but I'm grateful for him that he was able to get
right so many things before he passed to the other side.
And where it would be much more difficult to deal with and make restitution and fix
the things that—
I can do that with those who have offended us and those that we have offended.
Yeah, I do too.
Anyway, so I think again, before one can really forgive themselves and recognize, receive,
and retain forgiveness in their life, we need to make sure that we've forgiven others.
That grudges are gone.
And as we accomplish that through, again, the grace of Christ, we can begin to forgive
ourselves.
So let's talk about forgiving ourselves, which really means receiving, recognizing,
and retaining forgiveness in our lives, Scott, those three Rs.
And let's start with receiving.
And I believe that receiving forgiveness, before we can even recognize it, that the
receiving is the work of repentance.
That's what it means to receive it.
And we've talked a lot about that now.
I hate describing the act of repentance in any sort of steps sort of way.
I don't think it's a checklist.
I know it's not a checklist.
And we've talked about the different elements that must be involved in the work of repentance,
even daily repentance, which should not be trivialized, that we have to recognize our
sins before we can ever recognize forgiveness for any sin, that we have to work it out with
the Lord by crying out to Him and confessing to Him and crying out and praying for forgiveness
and identifying our weakness and sins to Him, and to ask for His help in recognizing our
sins and weakness.
We need to be able to make restitution.
We need to try to restore what was lost as a result of our sins, if humanly possible.
And we need to do all of those things that we've talked about.
And as we do those things, Scott, that's how we receive the gift of forgiveness.
Recognizing that forgiveness is almost the more difficult part.
I think of all the challenges in teaching the class on repentance and forgiveness that
I taught at Utah Valley University off and on for 10 years.
The question that I probably received more than any other was, how can I recognize forgiveness?
And I heard this over and over again, was that many individuals in our class—and I've
heard this also from priesthood leaders—is they would say, trying to help out others,
they would say, well, you just have to forgive yourself.
You just have to forgive yourself.
Well, that may be true in some rare instances, but I think more often than not, Scott, that's
just the wrong focus and the wrong effort.
What we should be focused on is trying to recognize the Lord's forgiveness.
Because I believe, Scott, without exception, that when we know the Lord has forgiven us,
when we recognize His forgiveness in our life—which we'll talk more about how to do that in a
minute—when we recognize His forgiveness, it's so much easier to forgive ourselves.
Well, and it makes the receiving of the forgiveness so much easier, too, right?
I mean, oftentimes we think of receiving as a passive experience.
Well, it's not a passive experience, right?
True.
I played a little bit of wide receiver in high school football, you know, and to receive,
that's a pretty involved experience on my part or the receiver's part.
I have to be engaged.
I have to be looking.
I have to be adjusting my position.
I have to be fighting through adversity to make that reception.
Well, maybe the most important part of that, we love football, both of us.
We both played football.
I coached a little football.
You have to be precise in the pattern that you are given to follow.
And you have to follow the right pattern.
If you want to receive the pass, you have to be precise in the pattern.
That's right.
And your communication has to be accurate.
So if I have a pattern that the quarterback is going, expecting me to run, and I run just
the opposite, and he's going to throw the ball where I'm going to be running too, then
we're all in trouble.
And so it's the same kind of thing here.
Oftentimes we get confused on what that receiving looks like.
And receiving is not a passive experience.
It is something that we have to engage in.
It's something that we have to accept.
To receive a gift doesn't mean you set the gift on my doorstep and now it's my gift.
In order for me to receive it, I have to unwrap it.
I have to engage in it.
I have to play with it or whatever the case may be for that gift to actually take place.
And so receiving and recognizing tie into each other so much the way I view it, just
because of that fact alone.
And there can't be any shortcuts.
You can't cheat or take a shortcut.
I know that that is so many people try to cut it short, their repentance, or they try
to receive forgiveness and think it should come quickly.
And sometimes, depending on the situations, the seriousness and conditions of sin, it
may take longer for some than others.
I know the Lord is quick to forgive, Scott.
Yeah, absolutely.
I know He wants to forgive, and He is quick, so merciful, gracious, and quick to forgive.
But sometimes it takes time, and sometimes it's because of what we are doing or not doing.
Again, we think that, why am I not being forgiven?
I haven't done that anymore for this long.
I haven't recommitted the sin.
Why am I not being forgiven when they're not reading their scriptures, they're not saying
their prayers, they're not attending church, they're not running the pattern.
They're committing more sins of omission than they ever committed in sins of commission,
and they wonder why they're not being forgiven.
Anyway, there are patterns that have to be followed.
One has to live the gospel, the fullness of the gospel to the best of their ability to
be able to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, who is, as the third member of the Godhead,
He is the messenger and the administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives.
He is the one who brings us the gifts of grace and mercy and forgiveness ultimately.
Therefore, when we speak of receiving forgiveness, we are speaking about nothing more, nothing
less than receiving the gift and power of the Holy Ghost in our lives.
So if one wants to know, how do I receive forgiveness, one should ask themselves, how
can I receive the Holy Ghost in my life?
It's the same thing.
There you have it.
And it goes right back to, for many of us, at the age of accountability when we're baptized
and then we receive or we are blessed then...
Commanded to receive.
Commanded then to receive.
We're not given, we're commanded to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
And so we should have already a pattern or some familiarity with this concept of receiving
the Holy Ghost and receiving the forgiveness of our sins, et cetera.
But it's interesting how oftentimes the enemy, the accuser, will put in front of us evidence
to the contrary of our receiving or to put evidence in front of us to accuse us of being
unworthy or incapable of receiving those gifts.
Yeah, absolutely.
And there are so many great scriptures on how to receive the Holy Ghost, I think, in
our life, Scott.
Before we even talk about recognizing it, let's talk a little bit about receiving it.
And when I think about receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, one of the great passages
of Scripture, I think, for me is Alma chapter 5.
And I love Alma chapter 5.
I want to just share a little experience with Alma chapter 5, what it means to me.
It's had such a powerful effect in my life and I really invite our readers to read it
and to read it often.
It's such a great way for me personally to take kind of a spiritual temperature, it's
like a spiritual thermometer, on how I'm doing.
And it kind of gives me the pattern and it enlightens me and helps me to be able to receive
the Holy Ghost in my life.
I was watching, I had told my oldest daughter, Rachel, that, you know, how you are with your
oldest, and I was a little zealot about this.
I told her, before you get baptized, Rachel, I think you should read the Book of Mormon.
So I'm telling this seven-year-old to read the Book of Mormon before I'll baptize her.
And so she's trying hard to read the Book of Mormon.
In the home that we lived in at the time, I could see her bedroom and her bed from where
I was laying in my bed, you know, our bedrooms were just across the hall and I could see
her.
And it was always just, oh, it was so sweet to watch her at night to be reading the Book
of Mormon.
And this one night I was watching her and she was so into it, the way she was moving,
her eyes and her expressions and her face, she was so into this.
And I thought, oh, she must be reading about Ammon cutting off the arms, you know.
I didn't know what she was reading, but that's what I thought.
I knew she was in Alma and I thought she's probably reading about that.
And all of a sudden she got through, this had gone on for, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes,
and she gets through and she closes the book.
And she just extemporaneously yells out, Daddy, Daddy, come here.
And so I get up, I go in her bedroom and sit on her bed and she says, Daddy, have you ever
read Alma chapter 5?
And I'm going, wow, that's what she was reading?
Wow, what would a seven-year-old, what would they, yeah, Rachel, yeah, I've read Alma
chapter 5 a few times.
Yeah, what did you like about it?
Because you know, it's pretty much an interview.
There's 42 questions, I think, in Alma chapter 5.
It's pretty much just a spiritual interview and him expounding to the people in the city
of Zarahemla, it's amazing, but it's doctrine and principles.
There's no storyline here.
And I said, wow, Rachel, that's awesome.
What did you like about Alma chapter 5?
And she paused and she kind of looked up and was pondering and after a few seconds she
looked at me and she said, with the earnestness and love of a child, she said, I don't know,
I just love how it made me feel.
I love how it made me feel.
I'm thankful that the Holy Ghost prompted me to say to her, Rachel, what you're feeling
is the Holy Ghost.
And I want you to always remember that tonight you have felt the Holy Ghost, the power of
the Holy Ghost bear testimony to you that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, that
you are a child of God, and that He loves you.
Well, honestly, Scott, I feel that same way when I read Alma chapter 5.
I don't know if it's my favorite chapter in all the scriptures, there's so many, but
I know how it makes me feel when I read it.
And if our listeners want to kind of receive the gift and recognize the gift of the Holy
Ghost in their life, a careful reading of Alma chapter 5, because it is an interview.
I mean, if they didn't have temple interview questions back in Alma's day, this is about
as close as I think you can get.
To be able to pause every time he asks a question, when I read it, this is the way I like to
read it, then it's not a quick read.
Every time he asks a question, I like to pause and answer the question for myself.
Can you feel so now?
Talking about the gift of redeeming love, and I like to answer that question for myself.
It seems like in that process, it helps me to connect with the Holy Ghost and to recognize
the Holy Ghost in my life.
So I encourage us to do that.
I know there are some verses in there to read, some of the evidences, whether we're receiving
the Holy Ghost or not, Scott, if we're recognizing it in our life.
What are some of the questions in there that you love?
I know you and I talked about this before we began the podcast.
Well, one of the very first ones is in verse 6, where he asks, and have you sufficiently
retained in remembrance his mercy and long suffering towards them?
Meaning towards all of us, right?
And moreover, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their
souls from hell?
I think that's the key.
For us, that has to be the foundational question that we answer before we can move on to any
of this, because without that sure knowledge or without that deep faith, that that is indeed
the case, then the rest of it is all for not.
I think that if I can answer that when I read these, and I have similar experiences with
this chapter as you, but when I read this, that's the first question that I have to honestly,
it's so easy, I think, for us as we're reading this, that question, have you sufficiently
retained in remembrance his mercy and long suffering towards them?
You, all of us.
I think that's an easy one for us to just skip past.
Oh yeah, I know that.
But I think that if we take the time to spend a moment in contemplation and ponder that
question, there's insights that can come to us.
There's insights that come to me, even when I think my life is good.
Yea, all is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospereth in Scott Durfee's life.
But when I read that question, and if I again, going back to so many times we've talked about
this personal inventory, if I take personal inventory around that, that really sets the
foundation for the rest of them.
Well, and it's really the first question that we're asked by priesthood leaders.
That's right.
When we're given a temple recommend is, do you have faith in your Heavenly Father, in
the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost?
That's what he's really asking, Scott, is do we have faith?
Do we have faith in Jesus Christ?
And we should point out again, as we have several times, that the power of forgiveness
and the power of repentance in our life is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is no power in repentance.
The power behind, in, and through repentance to be forgiven of our sins comes through our
faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That's the power behind all of this.
Exactly.
The next one I really like too is where he says, have you spiritually been born of God?
And I think that's another one that's easy for us to just skate right past sometimes
because we think, of course I've been spiritually born of God.
Okay, have we really?
And are we continuing to be?
This is not something that's a one and done.
None of this stuff is one and done for any of us.
That's my belief.
What I believe is, is if I don't-
It's a process.
Exactly.
And if I don't make it a daily repentance process, as our sweet president, Nelson, has
invited us to do and find joy in doing that, he added, I think that it's easy for me and
I'm human as much as anybody else.
It's easy for all of us to kind of become adrift away sometimes from these principles.
So when he says that, have you been spiritually born of God?
What does that mean?
And what does that mean to me?
And what does that mean to me today?
Right?
I mean, this is not something that I'm just born.
It's not like my mom gave birth to me and now I'm here to be spiritually born of God.
I need that to happen again and again.
And it gets back to what we've talked about in early episodes and throughout the entirety
of this process of putting this podcast together, we've talked about developing a relationship
with our heavenly father and his son, Jesus Christ.
And as we do that, we develop a relationship with the Holy Ghost too, Dave, because that's
where the administration of all of this comes.
Yeah, right.
So that's another one.
I just love that.
And in that same verse, he asks two more questions.
Have ye received his image in your countenance?
You know, I've wondered a lot about that.
I know there's a great old hymn about that.
Sister Cap Perry wrote about that.
I love that song.
And I've often wondered, what does that mean?
Does that mean I look different?
Have I taken his image in your countenance?
You know, I think it means, Scott, that we are feeling more joyful in our life.
I think that's one way.
We choose to keep the commandment to be of good cheer.
We put aside fear.
We focus more on Jesus Christ.
We look unto Him in every thought.
Doubt not, fear not.
And that changes our countenance.
Yeah.
And we deal with adversity in a higher and holier way then, too.
Absolutely.
Our countenance has changed.
It really is different.
And it can mean the way we appear.
Doesn't necessarily have to, but it can.
There are people that, you know, I'll tell you this.
When I first got sober 24 years ago-ish, it'll be that 24 years ago, and 21 days from now,
or 19 days from now, rather, whatever.
My math's off.
I'm on the 26.
But when I first got sober, I ran into a person.
Actually it was my mission president.
And I got quite close to my mission president on my mission.
I served in the home with him.
I was an assistant to the president for the last bit of my mission, and we got quite close.
And I ran into him when I was in a dark spot in my life.
And he was very kind, and very Christ-like, and very loving, and didn't embarrass me,
and didn't any of that.
And I ran into him again after I had become sober, and after I had actually renewed covenants,
and all of that.
And he took me, and he put his hands on both sides of my shoulder, Dave, and he looked
me in the eye, and he says, I see you now.
I see you now.
And it was, so I think sometimes-
The real you.
I think that sometimes that image in our countenance can be physical.
And I know he was feeling my spirit too.
Oh, that's sweet, Scott.
Thank you.
And then the other question he asked in verse 14, have ye experienced this mighty change
in your hearts?
Oh, that's such a great question to ponder.
That's such a great question to ask ourselves, or search within ourselves.
Have we been changed?
We again have taught, what is the difference in this perspective, Scott?
That I want to change, or I want to be changed.
And I was really rejoicing in a conference earlier this month when Elder Johnson gave
that incredible talk about, and in essence to paraphrase him teaching us, we can't change
ourselves.
We have to be changed.
The power to have, to experience this change of heart is not something that we can just
choose to do on our own.
We have to be changed.
And I think that that happens incrementally most of the time.
It can be quite profound, as in the case of Alma, or Paul, or Enos, or others.
But those, I think, are the exception to the rule, more than the rule.
I think it comes incrementally.
I think it comes just a drop of oil in our lamps here, and a drop of oil in our lamps
there.
And pretty soon, we're different, and we sometimes don't recognize it.
But if we could see ourselves six months before, or a year before, or if others who haven't
seen us, like your mission president, hasn't seen you for a while, boy, he could really
recognize it, and we could recognize it even in ourselves.
But we have to ask ourselves that question.
Have we been changed in our hearts?
And I think that's another way to begin to recognize, to receive and recognize forgiveness
in our lives.
And then, I think my favorite question in here, Scott, is the question he asked some
other great questions about faith, about the eye of faith.
Do you have the eye of faith?
Which is such a powerful thing, but I love verse 26.
"'Now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart,
and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?'
Wow.
That reminds me of my sweetheart, Chris, when she sins, when she makes a mistake, when her
weaknesses, the weaknesses of the flesh get the best of her, and she recognizes it.
She immediately bows her head and says, thank you.
Thinking about the redeeming love of Jesus Christ.
It's not about our redeeming love.
It's about can we recognize the redeeming love of Jesus Christ in our life?
And if you have felt that, can you feel so now?
Well, I testify that you can.
If you have faith in Christ and His Atonement, if you understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
if you can, with an eye of faith, picture Him in the Garden of Gethsemane, if you can
picture Him on the cross, if you can picture Christ inviting us continually to come unto
me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, if we can picture
that with an eye of faith, Scott, that's really—you can feel the redeeming love, and you can want
to sing the song of redeeming love continually.
Yeah.
Recently, and I don't know if it was last episode or a couple ago, these kind of all
run together a little bit for me, but we talked about rock bottoms, and we talked about how
we all, many of us that get to experience or have the opportunity to experience rock
bottom.
But then we talked about how the important rock bottom is not our own, but it's the
rock bottom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in Gethsemane on the cross and through that
entire process, even prior to Gethsemane as He went through the cruelty that preamble
all of that.
And everything in between.
And maybe, anyway, so as I think about to sing the song of redeeming love, right, to
know that even in my rock bottom, and many people are like this, Debs like this, my wife,
when life's great, she's singing.
And we all know people who are happy, and when they're happy, they sing, or they're
humming, or they're whistling, or whatever.
And I know metaphorically it's being expressed here, but that can also be a physical expression.
But as we take our rock bottom and meet our rock bottom with His rock bottom in the garden
and on the cross and through that entire process, and when we match our rock bottom or bring
our rock bottom to His rock bottom, and we experience the redeeming love that happened
because of His rock bottom, because of what He went through, even to the point where even
His own Father withdrew.
As we go through that and as we go there, that becomes so evident in my life.
And I think others feel the same way, that as we go through, behold, I say unto you,
my brethren, if you have experienced that change of heart, that's where that change
of heart comes from me.
That's where that broken heart, that contrite spirit, that process begins.
Which is a gift.
And if you've experienced that, that gift, and if you have felt to sing the song of redeeming
love, I would ask, do you feel to do so now?
In other words, what He's saying there is that's not a one and done either.
We don't just feel that to have the desire to sing the song of redeeming love, that's
just not a one-time experience for us.
That can be something that we get to experience time and time again as we bring our rock bottoms
and whereas we bring our difficulties in any magnitude.
It should be daily, Scott.
Absolutely.
That's what the repentance is all about.
It should be daily.
It should be moment by moment.
It's again to look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not.
Anyway, so this question causes me such, I know this is ironical to say it this way,
but it brings me such depth of sorrow for my sins, but such joy in my redemption.
To know that He has redeemed me through His blood brings such joy, it changes my countenance,
it makes me more humble, it makes me more meek.
I do really believe this, Scott, with all my heart, that the way to recognize forgiveness
in our life is when our gratitude for the atonement of Jesus Christ is greater than
our guilt.
When our gratitude for Jesus Christ in His atonement is greater than and supersedes our
guilt for our sins, we should recognize that we are being forgiven.
When our focus is more on Him than on our sins, when our focus is more on Him than my
inadequacies or my sins, we should know that we are being forgiven, and that should bring
us great joy and peace.
One of the things that we try to do as we go through these ideas is talk about the why
and the how, right?
And I think we've been able to identify and establish the why that this is important,
but I think, Dave, you just really hit on something extremely critical, because many
people, you know, you told me earlier that that was one of the big questions that was
asked of you when you were teaching this at the university level, is how do we know?
How do we know we've been forgiven?
How do we recognize or how are we able to have that experience codified in our own lives,
in our own souls, in our own experience throughout our lives?
And I think you just hit on it again.
Do you want to just kind of repeat that one more time?
Not only was it the number one question I was asked in that course on repentance and
forgiveness that I taught, but it was the number one question by far I was asked as
a branch president at the Missionary Training Center by missionaries, all of them trying
to repent and receive and recognize and retain forgiveness in their life.
The number one question was, how can I know or recognize that I'm forgiven?
Honestly, I don't want to oversimplify it, but my own experience and the experience of
others who've shared their experiences with me is that when your gratitude—and maybe
I should include, when your understanding of and gratitude for the Atonement of Jesus
Christ is greater than the guilt of your sins, you'll know that you're forgiven.
And that has been my experience, Scott, and I rejoice in that experience.
And I should maybe also say that that is not something, again, that we just, by our own
willpower or our own mental or emotional or psychological powers that we do on our own,
it comes through the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That gratitude I'm speaking of, that understanding that I'm speaking of that comes into our
heart and mind comes to us through the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost is the messenger and the administrator of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
The Holy Ghost is the messenger and the administrator of mercy and grace and forgiveness in our
lives.
And as an eye ring, you have said in multiple times that whenever we recognize the Holy
Ghost in our life, that we should understand, know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is
working in our life.
That's the key.
So when we learn to recognize the Holy Ghost, what should we know?
We should know that the Atonement is working in our lives.
And we're being forgiven if we're not forgiven already.
And we're being drawn nigh unto Him.
And when we're drawn nigh unto Him, Dave, that takes care of the anxiety, the pressure,
the sadness, the confusion, the fear, the pride, all of those things.
That's the antidote to all of those things in our lives.
And so based on what you just said, and I'm just going to recap this because I want us
to make sure that this is deeply ingrained within each one of us.
Because we will wonder, there will be times when we're wondering, am I receiving forgiveness?
How do I recognize that forgiveness?
The key, not just to that, but even the key to having the Atonement of Jesus Christ and
the power from it at work in our lives to heal us from all things, including the things
that we're talking about right now, is through the administration of the Comforter, the Holy
Ghost.
And so the way, the thing that we should do, the takeaway here, or our action step here
should be, in order for us, or if we desire to have that comfort, that peace, those feelings
of forgiveness, the recognizing that it's there, and to also know the effects of the
sins that we've perhaps perpetuated against others.
Those effects are being healed.
In order for us to have that and receive that knowledge and the confirmation that that's
true, we should be working diligently through daily repentance, and that's where the joy
from the daily repentance comes from, that President Nelson talked about.
That joy comes from, because of that, we now have the Holy Ghost in our lives.
Right.
And that includes reading our Scriptures daily, saying our prayers, which is a form of work
and worship.
There is a form of work and worship, and we need to be engaged.
We have to be participants in this process.
But that ultimately, it comes to us as a gift, and we are changed in our hearts, and we can
sing the song of redeeming love.
When we were speaking about that, Scott, I thought about years ago, the conference talk
that was given, that many of us are trying to dance without ever hearing the music.
And that's a funny picture, try to watch somebody dance without hearing the music.
When we sing the song of redeeming love, the music, the beautiful music, is the atonement
of Jesus Christ in our lives.
When we hear that music, when we can feel that, it's simple, really.
The process of being born again, of being converted to the Lord, of being forgiven of
our sins, is really quite a simple process.
And as we speak about all of this, Scott, I have thought about a talk that was given
many years ago, before even Elder Bednar was ordained an apostle while he was still president
at BYU-Idaho.
In fact, right after Rick's college became BYU-Idaho, he gave this amazing talk called
Line Upon Line, Precept Upon Precept.
And I just want to read a portion of this from his talk, and then compare receiving
an answer to prayer, comparing it to receiving forgiveness from our sins.
He quotes 2 Nephi, chapter 28, line upon line, precept upon precept, and he says,
"'If you and I would learn to discern the difference between our own emotions and the
promptings of the Holy Ghost, then we must come to recognize the Lord's pattern'—there's
that word again—'pattern.'
You've got to run the pattern and process for giving us spiritual knowledge.'
And the phrase line upon line, precept upon precept, describes a central feature of the
Lord's pattern.
I believe many of us unknowingly accept a faulty assumption about the Lord's pattern.
And this faulty assumption then produces erroneous expectations about how we receive spiritual
knowledge—and think again about receiving forgiveness.
And that faulty assumption and our misinformed expectations ultimately hinder our ability
to recognize and receive and respond to the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Let me suggest that many of us typically assume we will receive an answer or a prompting to
our earnest prayers and pleadings.
And we also frequently expect that such an answer or a prompting will come immediately
and all at once.
Thus, we tend to believe the Lord will give us a big answer quickly and all at one time.
However, the pattern repeatedly described in the Scriptures suggests we receive line
upon line, precept upon precept, or in other words, many small answers or forgiveness over
a longer period of time.
Recognizing and understanding this pattern is an important key in obtaining inspiration
and help and forgiveness from the Holy Ghost.
That was so enlightening to me.
Read that so many years ago and it's always been in my mind and it's helped me in my
relationship with my Heavenly Father not only in receiving answers to prayers, line upon
line, precept upon precept, or receiving revelation in my life, but also receiving forgiveness
in my life.
I mean, I recognize and the Scriptures have examples of individuals who have this traumatic,
dramatic experience in receiving forgiveness in their life when it does come all at once.
I can say that I have received that experience from time to time in my life.
But more often the pattern is that it comes line upon line, precept upon precept, here
a little, there a little, day by day, week by week, month by month.
But recognizing that Holy Ghost and receiving Him in our life is the key to that process
and pattern.
And that's enough.
Yes, it really is.
And I have to say that when I have faith in Jesus Christ that He will answer my prayers,
meaning I also have faith not only in Jesus Christ or faith in my Heavenly Father that
they will answer my prayers, but the timing of their answers.
That's really an important part of this, right?
That forgiveness comes in the timing of the Lord, not what we choose or demand in the
process.
So we have to have timing in the process.
However, when I have faith in Jesus Christ and faith in His timing, faith in my Heavenly
Father and His timing, faith in the Holy Ghost and His timing, then I can say, okay, it's
only a matter of time before I am forgiven.
And even that, Scott, gives me great peace and joy when I understand that.
Yeah, me too.
In fact, I think there's a great deal of heavenly wisdom all wrapped up into all of that.
And I think those experiences are prescribed for us individually.
I believe that, you know, for example, when Joseph Smith had his experience, when Heavenly
Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him immediately, he'd been praying about this before.
We talked about that, perhaps.
But you know, he had that experience.
He started that two years before that happened.
And we've all had experiences, I can't say we all, I assume, I trust that we've all had
experiences where we have felt our Heavenly Father's immediate presence when we've needed
it.
But there's also been, and there's wisdom for Scott in this, at least, in making it
something that I, if it's not a daily effort for me, I get distracted.
I tend to forget.
I tend to.
Yeah, true.
You can really wander.
Exactly.
Be lost.
Exactly.
And so that daily rectifying my own life, that daily inventory, that daily coming to
Him, that daily repentance of turning away from all things that are not Him and turning
towards Him and embracing Him and inviting Him in my life, and even more importantly,
accepting His invitation to come unto me.
That's when all that starts happening.
And maybe we can conclude with a short story.
And there's lots more we'll talk about on our next episode, right?
Because we haven't really talked about how to recognize the Holy Ghost completely in
our lives like I think we should, and we need to talk about how to retain a remission of
sins as well.
And we can finish it up in the next episode.
But a quick story about a missionary at the MTC who had done some pretty awful things.
And this was an amazing young man.
His companion told me this, not him, but they were both, this companionship, both of them
were from Oregon.
And his companion pointed out to me that this young man, who I'm going to describe in a
minute, it was the vote of the, he was Mr. Oregon or the greatest football player, the
most valuable football player in the high school in Oregon.
And he had a full ride scholarship to play for the Nebraska Cornhuskers.
And this is when they were national champions, the Nebraska Cornhuskers back in the day,
back in the late 80s.
And he had done some pretty, some pretty hard things, bad things.
And he was going to have to go home and take some time to repent.
And he went home and he worked hard and he read the Book of Mormon multiple times and
met with the stake president weekly.
And I called him weekly and he came back after about six months.
And he and I had a lot of personal conversations and lots of tears and spiritual experiences
together at the MTC before he left on his mission.
And I don't know if I recall this right, but I think he was going to South Africa.
Before he left, he said, I still don't know if I'm forgiven.
And I said, Elder, it will happen.
In fact, with an eye of faith, I can see that it's already happened.
But you'll know.
You will know.
And when you know, I want you to send me that letter.
He went to South Africa on his mission.
And he sent me a letter.
And the letter, I was a little disappointed.
It said, do you think I need to get a new patriarchal blessing?
Because when I got my old patriarchal blessing, I wasn't worthy.
Do you think I should get a new one?
That was his concern and still beating himself up.
And I wrote him and said, no, no, no.
The Lord saw you.
He saw all your life.
And all these things are conditioned and conditional upon your faithfulness.
All these will be fulfilled.
Anyway, I wrote him a long letter back.
And then, I don't know, it was another month or two, he sent me another letter.
And I hesitantly opened the letter, wondering what his concern was now, because he was kind
of such a perfectionist and had such high expectations of himself and was really beating
himself up all this time.
And I opened the envelope.
And there was a single piece of paper, and I opened the, unfolded the paper, and there
were only three words.
Scott, I still have this.
It's one of the greatest, well, it is probably the greatest letter I ever received.
And it said in great, big, bold letters, these three words took up the entire page, 8 1
8 1 2 by 11 piece of paper.
I am clean!
Exclamation mark, exclamation mark.
That's all it said.
And I wrote him a letter back.
And I said, hey, you got to tell me what happened.
He sent me a letter, and he described that one, he was being a good missionary and working
hard and being faithful and obedient.
And he said, I woke up one morning, and after I said my prayers, I went into the bathroom
to shave, and I looked in the mirror, and I was a different person.
I was a different person, he said.
My countenance was different.
I knew, he recognized finally, I knew the Lord had forgiven me.
That's a profound but simple, sweet experience, Scott, that I know can be true for all of
us, that as we exercise faith and endure and continue in faith in our understanding of
and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Atonement, that we can know that we are forgiven.
And it may be dramatic, and it may be profound, or it may be just really small, sweet, in
simple ways.
But our Heavenly Father, who loves us all perfectly and infinitely, extends those tender
mercies to us individually in ways that we are best suited to receive them, in the ways
that will best affect our lives.
And what a wonderful, wonderful testimony, what a wonderful tender mercy that that young
missionary got to experience.
Please be at the perfect time as we are prepared and qualify ourselves to receive it.
It is a gift that cannot be earned.
It must be received.
Maybe by way of invitation this week, we would invite you to go back to the Book of Mormon
and Alma, chapter 5, and go through and just review those questions and see which ones
stand out to you, see which ones lend poignancy to your own life and the circumstances and
conditions around your life today.
And then do what we need to do to have the administration of the Atonement of Jesus Christ
through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, in our lives and working to have that presence
always in our lives.
The promise of healing and the promise of change and the promise of confidence in the
presence of our Heavenly Father and all things like Him is there.
Do you have any final thoughts before we say goodbye until next week?
I don't think so, Scott.
I'm sorry that we didn't answer all the questions about the receiving, recognizing, and retaining
the mission of sins, but we'll pick that up on the next one.
I'm grateful for the experience to be with you and the spirit that I know you and I feel
together as we talk about these things.
I know we'll have plenty of time to take on those other topics and those other commitments
that we've made to you.
I think it's important as we're led by the Spirit to follow down the things that we've
talked about today.
These are surely important things in each of our lives as we do our best to draw onto
Him.
Remember that our Heavenly Father loves you perfectly.
He's completely and acutely aware of every little detail of your life, every little detail
in your life, and He cares about that.
If we will all work to have the Spirit of the Holy Ghost in our lives so that we can
feel the effects and the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His Atonement,
those things will be made for our benefit.
They will bring us closer to Him.
They will give us deeper testimonies, a deeper commitment, a more loving heart, and the ability
to navigate this life in the same way that He would, the Prince of Peace.
Hope we're all singing the song of redeeming love this week.
I hope we are too.
Thanks, Dave.
It's always great to be with you.
It's great to be with you all.
Remember that you have been redeemed through His blood.
I hope that we are all in the process of accepting that redemption.
We look forward to being with you next week, and until then, everybody take care, and we
will see you then.