Hey there everybody, welcome to Redeem Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope,
healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My name is Scott Durfey and
I want to be the first to welcome you out today. I also want to introduce my partner,
our teacher in this project, Brother David Durfey. Say hi Dave.
Good to be here, buddy. It's good to have you with us as always, Dave. Listen, game, a couple of
things before we get rolling today. I just want to as always thank you all for the amazing emails
that we've been receiving and really heavy emphasis on the word amazing. We've had some,
just some wonderful emails. We've had some great questions. We'll probably be able to answer briefly
a couple of those today as part of our podcast, but we've also received some great insights from a
lot of you and we really appreciate those insights. We appreciate any feedback, insights, questions,
all of that. So please keep those coming. As always, you can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com.
That is heredeemsusatgmail.com. So again, just encourage it to keep those coming. We try to
incorporate your questions where we can. We have actually responded personally to a few emails. I
hesitate to say that because I'd like you to manage your expectations around that, but there
have been a couple of times when we've been able to do that. So gang, we've had a couple of great
podcasts a couple of weeks ago. You'll remember we had an interview with my wife Deb Durfee. We've
had just an overwhelming, she has to an overwhelming response already on that. We appreciate that. I
know that there's been a lot of lives touched through her and through also our other couple of
guests that we've had, both Scott Harmon and Nate Moller as well. And we look forward to having more
guests come in the future. We have a couple of those already lined up. A few of them, well,
all of them that we have lined up, I'm very excited for. I know Dave is too, and we're anxious to get
those interviews out and in front of you as well. So today, we're going to be talking about as we
continue along the vein of forgiveness and the repentance process and those types of things.
We've got a great podcast, I think in store for us today as we begin to talk about forgiveness.
But before we do that, Dave, what thoughts do you have that you'd like to share with us or
before we get rolling into the topic today? Well, thank you, Scott. It's so, so great, so sweet
to be here, be able to talk about these things. And I think it should be clear
here by now to everyone who listens to these podcasts that our great objective in all of these
podcasts is to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and the redemption that He offers us. You know,
there's many titles that Jesus goes by, and I love all of those titles, over a hundred of them.
But I think the one that I love the most is Redeemer. And it's interesting that in the
scriptures, when God talks about His plan or when prophets talk about the plan of God,
the term they use the very most, it's 14 times in the Book of Mormon, is they refer to it as the plan
of redemption. Redemption and Christ is the Redeemer. Again, we believe, as Brother Robert J.
Matthews taught and said to me personally, that we believe in the gospel of redemption,
not assimilation. This is not a gospel about assimilating good habits. Anybody can assimilate
good habits. The restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is a system of redemption,
not a system of assimilation. I just think that it's so easy for us to lose focus on that.
And a few episodes ago, we listened to your sweetheart, Scott Debra, your beautiful bride
and wonderful wife. And she was, I think her story is a great example of that. You know,
she had been taught and it had been so emphasized in her life about commandments. And I love
commandments and God loves commandments and obedience is the first law of heaven. And we're a
gospel of commandments and we're a gospel of covenants. It's true. Amen. However, if Jesus Christ
is not the center of all of that, if you put commandments before you put Jesus Christ as the
center and focus of your life, you're going to be pretty messed up. You're not going to be doing
things for the right reason. You're not going to find real joy, true joy, the joy of Christ
if he is not the focus of our lives. It's all about having a relationship with him. And that's
our true objective and purpose of these podcasts is to help all of us to draw closer to Jesus Christ,
to accept him as our redeemer and our Savior, and to be able to receive redemption through his blood,
his sacrifice, his atonement for all of us individually. Anyway, I just think it's good
that we maybe in a moment, just for a moment today, that we refocus and restate our objective
admission here. I appreciate that, Dave. And let's go back just a little bit. You were talking
about the commandments and how if we just continually, and I agree too, they're important.
They are definitely one of the ways that we can obtain the spirit of our Heavenly Father in our
lives, thereby putting on the atonement of Jesus Christ. You talk about if we focus too much,
well, not too much, but if we focus solely, and that's our only focus is on those types of things,
you say we're not able to have joy in its fullness and all those other things. But another thing that
we do get when we focus that way is we get frustration. We get frustration, we get despair,
we get discouragement because there's just no way any of us are ever going to be 100% perfect
to keep in every commandment that's been set forth for us to keep. And when you talk about
redemption, that's why that is so key to our not just eternal life, but our mortal lives and having
peace in this mortal life is once we develop that relationship with that, with our Savior Jesus
Christ, and when that relationship brings to us a refocus on Him, and as we repent daily there,
which means again turning to Him fully and turning our backs on anything that's not of Him,
thus breaking the commandments, I think that we can have a more full relationship with Him
if we have that perspective in order. I think that's good that you brought that up.
Well, I think there's a lot of people who are throwing in the towel, giving up, maybe leaving
the church, not maybe, but I know some are, who are struggling. And I think it's because they never
truly focused on Jesus Christ and His Atonement and what the restoration
of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us about Him. You know, Scott, honestly,
when I was a young man and for probably years after my mission until I was sometime in my 30s,
I saw the gospel as a system of commandments and a system of assimilation and was trying hard to
be like Jesus, and I kept the commandments so that I wouldn't need the Atonement.
Yeah, yeah. So that I wouldn't have to repent. And I wised up, and I think a lot of that had to do
with my experience as a branch president at the Missionary Training Center and other opportunities
to serve and my experience working with volunteering at the prison and other things.
I learned, Scott, which completely changed my approach to living the gospel, completely changed
my perspective of how I see the gospel and completely flipped the gospel from a system of
work to a system of grace in my life. I saw keeping the commandments as an opportunity to put on
the Atonement. Right, me too. So I see the commandments as extremely important. Why?
Not so that I don't need to repent. I see the gospel as a system of redemption that I have
commandments and covenants to help me to repent. I have commandments to help us put on the Atonement
of Jesus Christ, not so that we don't need it. That's a different approach and perspective.
Yeah, it is. And I think I've received this feedback from people I know personally as we've
wrote this out. People are just so grateful, grateful to have a different understanding
of the way Heavenly Father sees us and the way then we can now begin to see Him. That whole
relationship changes when that idea changes, Dave. I was so thankful for the email that we
received from a member of a bishop, Rick, who's serving currently in a bishop, Rick, according to
his email, who talked about how he now sees as a result of some things that we've shared and discussed.
He now has kind of a different perspective of his relationship with Jesus Christ. And
I made me, and I know it did you as well, Scott, made us so happy. Because that's really, I guess,
our objective. How can we put on Christ in His Atonement and receive redemption and see the
gospel of Jesus Christ as a system of redemption? I'd actually like to read one paragraph from
that email, Dave. So Hadley, if you're listening, we won't use your last name to protect your
anonymity here. But if you're listening, this is for you. And actually from and by you. One of the
things that I've realized is that I've always had a relationship with Jesus. But I'm finding out it
was a pretty toxic relationship. I thought that was an interesting view. And I wonder how many of
us have had that same kind of toxic relationship going on. Here he goes on. He says, I viewed
him through the distorted. I love how he wrote this too. I have viewed him through the distorted
lens of my own insecurities so poorly, that I never got to meet the real Savior. I've always
known an angry, judgmental, condemning Savior that didn't actually exist. I love that.
I do too, Scott. And that made me really grateful. And I think it made our Heavenly Father happy
that, you know, if we could just see things as they really are, it would be such a blessing for us to
see ourselves, to see others, even to see our Savior for who they really are. And maybe that leads us
into our topic for today, Scott, which is how can we forgive? How can we forgive others?
And how can we forgive ourselves? And I think just to start out, because we just said it, is
to be able to see ourselves the way God sees us and to be able to see God the way He sees us.
And the way He really is. Yeah, the way He feels about us and the mercy
and the lack of condemnation that He feels towards us. He feels nothing but compassion
towards us. I mean, we've been commanded to forgive others, and we're going to talk about that now.
But maybe we should start out just by talking about the character of Jesus Christ when the woman
who is caught in the very act of adultery is brought before him in John chapter 8. Jesus
leans over and writes some things down, and I'd be really interested to know what He was writing
down in the sand. And maybe He was writing down, I know it's been speculated that He was writing down
down maybe some of the names or sins of the sins that had been committed against others
by the Pharisees and Sadducees or whatever. It would be interesting to know what He was writing.
But anyway, no stones were ever thrown. He was without sin, let him cast the first stone, Jesus
said. Then He goes over to the woman individually, compassionately. Woman, where are thine accusers?
Neither do I condemn thee. Go thy way and sin no more. Scott, this is six months out before He
suffers and bleeds from every pore for that woman's sins. Those sins hurt Jesus personally.
Yeah, right. And anytime we sin, it is a personal assault to Jesus Christ, and He is so
merciful, gracious, and willing to forgive, not only forgive, but to never condemn. And if Jesus
Christ who was without sin, if He can't condemn a woman who is caught in the very act of adultery,
who am I a sinner to condemn anybody? I can't condemn anybody. And I shouldn't condemn myself.
I'm a sinner. But there should be no condemnation in that Jesus doesn't condemn me. And if Jesus
who was sinless would not condemn me or others, I can't condemn me or others. This idea, Dave, of
forgiving others is a very, some may call it a very altruistic approach, right? To like, oh,
that's so benevolent that you could do that. And that's a great idea. That's a great thing to strive
for. That's a great thing that the mystics and the yogis and the others of other spiritual traditions
teach and so forth too. But oftentimes, an experience in reality will rip us right back
into our reality. And we realize sometimes some of us realize that this forgiving others is just
not all that easy. As a matter of fact, you know, in the world of recovery, where I again spend a lot
of my time, I think that we've made that quite clear over the various episodes. But if you're
just tuning in for the first time maybe on this episode, just to let you know that on October
26, I will celebrate 24 years of continuous sobriety. And I've been practicing that as part of a
an addiction recovery program, well known but anonymous. And I, one of the things in that,
Dave, that we begin to deal with very early on is this concept of forgiving others. You know,
we, it's actually, we begin it in the fourth step. That's literally where this whole process
starts to begin. The first three steps have to do with cleaning house and in our relationship
with our Heavenly Father, not cleaning house, but our relationship with our Heavenly Father.
And then when we start in four and five, that's when we really start cleaning house. And that's
where we begin to take personal inventory, which we've talked about. And we've talked about the
importance of that. We've made invitations actually around that. Hopefully you've participated in
that experience. But when we begin this process and we start to take that inventory and we look
at the things in our lives where resentment and anger and those types of things have been so
damaging to our spiritual wellness, therefore our soul, therefore creating all kinds of spiritual
and emotional and other confusions within us, which is really a lot of the reason why a lot of
people drink and use drugs and do other behaviors that, to just kind of distract our feelings from
those types of things. Well, when we start dealing with and diving into those experiences that we've
had with other people and we realize that forgiveness might be part of our process, that can be a
difficult thing. And so I think that as we dive into this, this will take some courage. And I pray
for that courage for each of us as we look at ourselves, as we consider where we are in this
process ourselves, as we start to get promptings from the Spirit where maybe this needs to be
something in our lives that needs to take place. I promise you in the name of Jesus Christ that
through His power that is enacted upon us through His Atonement, which is administered to us,
through His Spirit, even the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, that as those things happen in our lives,
that things will change, even our relationship with Him changes, our relationship with our
self changes. And so as we embark on what we are stepping into today and maybe even in subsequent
podcasts because of the enormity of this concept itself, I encourage us all to look for the peaceable
things that the Savior will enable us to have through His Atonement as we start doing it.
Scott, as a result of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we're taught in the Second Nephi that
we are free to act, not be acted upon. But the reality is we are all acted upon. We're all victims.
That's just a fact. We've all been sinned against. We've all been offended, sometimes even by members
in the church, members out of the church. We've all been hurt by others. However, because of the
Atonement of Jesus Christ, Scott, we choose to be victim if we do not make the choice or keep the
commandment to forgive. We are free. We do not have to be a slave to the sins of others. We are free
to act. And that means to me, we are free to forgive. I do not have to continually suffer
victimization the rest of my life, no matter how bad or horrible it may have been. We need the
Atonement of Jesus Christ and the power that can flow into our life through Jesus Christ and His
Atonement, Scott, to forgive. We can't be forgiven without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And I believe
that in the worst cases of being sinned against, we don't have the power to forgive humanly without
the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of Christ, the Light of Christ, the power and gift
to the Holy Ghost is a blessing to us to help us to forgive. So we're not asking anyone to just on
their own willpower to forgive others. The ability and gift, it's a gift to forgive others flows into
our lives through Jesus Christ. He has not given us any commandments that we can't keep. Nephi
right, declares that early on in 1st Nephi 3.7. I will go and do. If the Lord doesn't ask us to do
anything that He doesn't give us the power to do, well, He has clearly asked us, no, He's clearly
commanded us over and over again in the Scriptures to forgive others. And I believe that means
including ourselves, but He gives us the power, the enabling power, the strength, and the gift and
spirit to be able to do that. So you have to, I think to ultimately forgive, you have to see it
as a commandment from God through the teachings of Jesus Christ. And then you have to see it as
a gift that has to be received through the Atonement of Jesus Christ in order to really keep that
commandment. In Matthew 6 verses 14 through 15, this is what the Savior says. And this is the
Sermon on the Mount, right? That's exactly right. Repeated again and bountiful in the Book of Mormon.
He says here, He says, for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also
forgive you. But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you
your trespasses. So there's the commandment. And further in the Sermon on the Mount, Scott,
we're taught that the difference between the law of Moses and the law of many other world
religions, frankly, it was I for an eye, tooth for a tooth. But Jesus Christ taught a different law.
And the higher law, the celestial law, and the law of Christ is that we need to forgive. In the
Sermon on the Mount, it reads, and I'm reading from the Book of Mormon account that He gave at
Bountiful in 3 Nephi chapter 12. Behold, it is written also that thou shalt love thy neighbor
and hate thine enemy. But behold, I say unto you, love your enemies. Bless them that curse you.
Do good to them that hate you and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.
That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, for he maketh his Son to rise on the
evil and on the good. So I love the gospel is that we love. It's a gospel of love. It's a gospel of
forgiveness. It's not a gospel of revenge or a gospel of getting even or making things
completely fair. That's not what the gospel is about. The atonement of Jesus Christ did that.
The atonement of Jesus Christ fulfilled that. And us offering mercy, Scott, does not deny or rob
anyone from receiving justice. No. I think some people think they don't want to forgive others
because they want to punish them. They think it's, it's, it's, they have to give them justice,
which is I have to hate them or, or I have to get back at them or I have to, somebody who has hurt
me, my, my natural man desire is that they receive justice. Well, justice is not mine to give.
Justice is God's to give and mercy that I give cannot rob the justice that God will forgive
and mercy that God forgives obviously doesn't rob the justice. In fact, mercy, Scott, I believe
fulfills justice. Yeah, I think it does too. Right here, elder. Well, this was President
Ezra Taft Benson actually gave his famous talk. We're all pretty much aware, I believe, of this
talk on it's called Beware of Pride. It was in 1989. And this is just a little snippet from that.
And he's making reference to 1st Nephi 16, verses one through three, when he says the scriptures
testify that the Proud are easily offended and hold grudges. And so, you know, that's a sign of
pride. We talked about pride several episodes ago, too, right? The, the role of fear and pride in
our stumbling blocks towards progress. Well, here's one of those pride issues that can come up
through not forgiving or the idea of forgiving others. Again, he says the scriptures testify
that the Proud are easily offended and hold grudges. They withhold forgiveness to keep another
in their debt and to justify their injured feelings. We see that given to us by a latter
day prophet. But then we also, if we go to Luke chapter six, verses 36 through 38, and give us
this pointing on your merciful, on the mercy, right? He says, be therefore merciful, as your
father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall be not judged. Condemn not, and you shall be not
condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. Give, and it shall be given unto you good measure,
pressed down and shaken together and running over. Men shall give into you your bosom. For with that
same measure that ye meet with all, it shall be measured unto you. I love the imagery that he gives
here with good measure, pressed down and shaken together. You know, that, that means as much as
he can possibly compact into one vessel, right? Packed down, shaken together, made as, made as
full as he possibly can. Yeah, yeah. He used that often. I think in order to really forgive, Scott,
one must understand again the atonement of Jesus Christ and what he really suffered for.
And this is in Elder Anderson's book again, but it's such an important doctrine that Jesus
Christ not only suffered for the sins that would be committed, Jesus Christ suffered for the sins
that would be committed against me. In other words, he, he suffered for those who would be hurt.
He suffered the pain that would be caused by sin, not just for the sin. I think understanding that
doctrine should help all of us to exercise greater faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement in order
to receive the gift of forgiveness, to be able to forgive others and to forgive ourselves. Many,
I know, have a harder time forgiving themselves when they think about all the pain that they have
caused others. Well, I get that. I understand that. We've, we've all done that. And so we
continue to beat ourselves up over the pain that we've caused others. Well, how long,
when do we fulfill that? The truth is we can't. We can't suffer enough for the pain that we've
caused others, but we don't have to. Jesus suffered it. Jesus suffered for all the pains
of all the world and for all the sins of all the world. You have to understand that doctrine,
I think, to be able to truly receive the gift of forgiveness.
Here's one of those stumbling blocks, though, and this comes up. It's come up in my life multiple
times. And so I have a real, I have a lot of pictures to go with the words around this, right?
And so, you know, I know that because of decisions I've made, and I'm not alone, I think every one
of us have this. So this is not me beat myself up in front of thousands of people here. But,
but what it is is me acknowledging that, you know, I know that because of my sins,
it's caused a lot of pain and a lot of other people. A lot of those, a lot of other people
are really close to me, my kids, for example, and others that I've loved, family members and so forth,
because of decisions I had made in my past. And even still, sometimes I'm not perfect. I can even
say things and do things that can be taken wrong or out of context, or maybe even I've been
irresponsible in the way that I've communicated, and I can still do that. But when I look at this,
it's, you know, and we go back to episodes way back in the past, in the very beginnings, when we
started talking about who we really are and getting a glimpse of who we are and understanding who we
are and our relationship with him. I think that for me, and I can only speak for me, but I think
this probably applies to a lot of us, that when I have had difficulty looking at that, so when I've
had difficulty forgiving myself, and we're going to get into that more and more later, but when
I've had difficulty forgiving myself, it's also difficult for me to forgive others. I kind of
say in that same vein, I've noticed that when I have a close relationship, when I have a deep
understanding or clarity around my relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, you know,
we go back to several episodes, Dave, I remember you saying, and I say this now when we teach our
YSA Institute class at Brigham Young University here, that, you know, Heavenly Father has never
been surprised by anything I've done, and He's never been really mad at me for anything I've done.
No condemnation. No condemnation. He didn't condemn the lady that we talked about earlier,
that was caught in the very act and other things, you know, and so when we realize and when we have
that clarity in that relationship, that definitely has made that easier for me, and it's made it
easier for me to realize, you know what, Scott, my soul is worth saving. My soul is worth having
that relationship with my Heavenly Father. My soul is worth having peace in my soul through the
atonement of Jesus Christ, even though there have been injury to others, or even though there's been
injury to me. And it's all we get back, you know, I remember you saying early, early on, it's all
about our relationship with Him. Yeah, it all comes down to our faith in Jesus Christ and His
atonement and our understanding of that truth. So, Scott, I, we just can't emphasize strongly enough
how this is not only a commandment, but that God has given us the power to keep the commandment.
And I love the story that is in Elder Anderson's book, which is about Corey Ten Boom. Corey Ten Boom
and her family were, lived in Holland and were part of the underground movement to save the Jews
that were, you know, being killed in the holoca, part of the Holocaust. And they were finally,
somebody finally discovered it and reported it and that her family, well, her, her sister and her
dad and other members of the family were sent to the, the prison camps. And she was in the near,
many years after was giving talks about this, right? And she was talking at this church about
mercy and forgiveness and what it meant to be a true Christian and, you know, her sister,
she was so close to her older sister Betsy and Betsy had suffered terribly in these prison camps in
Robbins, Robbins, Bruch or however you say that in German. So, in, in her book in Corey Ten Boom's
book, The Hiding Place, which is an amazing book, I recommend everyone to read that. Her and Betsy
are having a conversation one day. I remember this from reading it. And Betsy, who's just, you can
tell Corey just, is, just loves her and sees her as such a great example of Christianity. And
Betsy, who has smuggled into the prison camps some pages of the Bible, she's hidden them from
her captors who wouldn't have let her ever have the Bible in these, these prison camps.
But she's got a few pages and she reads one of the pages, which is the writings of Paul,
about how we should forgive everyone. And she's trying to teach Corey this. And Corey says,
everyone, we have to forgive everyone. And she says, yes, Corey, you know, everyone. Anyway,
she, Corey and Betsy are very close. And back to the book here, I'm reading from Elder Anderson's
book on page 229. Following the war, Corey was determined to share this message, you know, of
love and forgiveness. On one occasion, she had just spoken to a group of people in Germany,
suffering from their averages of war. Her message was, God forgives. It was then that
Corey Ten Boom's faithfulness brought forth its blessing. A man approached her. She recognized
him as one of the cruelest guards in the camp. Can you imagine that, Scott? Come and face to face
with one of your captors. Now, I can't even imagine that. And, you know, and she calls him the one
of the cruelest. One of the cruelest, yeah. And this man says to Corey, you mentioned Ravensbrook
in your talk, he said, I was a guard there. But since that time, I have become a Christian.
He explained that he had sought God's forgiveness for the cruel things he had done.
He extended his hands and asked, will you forgive me? Corey Ten Boom then said,
it could not have been many seconds that he stood there. Hand held out. But to me,
it seemed ours. As I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.
The message that God forgives has a condition that we forgive those who have injured us.
Help me, I prayed silently. I can lift my hand. I can do that much. But you have to supply the feeling.
Woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to be by one of the cruelest
guards, right? As I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder,
raised down my arm, sprang into our joined hands, and then this healing warmth seemed to flood over
my whole being, bringing tears into my eyes. I forgive you, brother, I cried, with all my heart.
For a long moment, we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner.
I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then. That's incredible. I think that is such a
great story and example of how forgiveness is a gift. There's no way she could have done that on
her own. But she knew it was a commandment because Betsy had taught that to her while they were
prisoners. And Betsy had died a horrible death in that camp. But she had taught that lesson to
Corey that they had to forgive everyone. And they had to love everyone. And Corey believed it
and acted in faith, even though at first it was just mechanical. And God gave her the gift of love
and forgiveness. A few minutes ago, we talked about how, because of the Atonement, the Atonement's
here not just to heal us from our own sins, but from those that have been sinned against us. And
what a perfect example of that right there. Right. That is humanly. I honestly believe
that that is humanly impossible to do. It's a gift of the Spirit. Right. Yeah. Totally. And I know we
don't, there's latter day saints, we don't have a monopoly on that. No, of course not. You know,
that can be of any religion or any individual who desires that. But it comes through the light of
Christ or the Spirit and influence of God and flows into our lives if we are willing to love.
He will give that gift to anyone. Right. Right. You know, and there are stories like this, and we've
heard them throughout our lives. I remember not that many years ago about a situation, and I haven't
looked this up to get the exact dates, but maybe some of you will remember this as well, that on a
Amish, in an Amish schoolhouse, I believe it was. Yeah, amazing story, movie. Yeah, that's right.
They made that a movie. Love that movie. Yeah. So apparently, and I don't remember all the details,
but there was murder and there. Man goes into a schoolhouse. Okay. He goes into an Amish schoolhouse.
And kills the kids? Kills some people. Yeah, kills some children. Kills a bunch of people there,
but the response of the people in that community is some of the most Christ-like.
How they take in the murderers' family. Right. Yeah. Yeah. How the compassion that they show
to the murderers' family. Right. Knowing that's what Jesus would do. That's such a great example
the Amish give us in that true story about the Christ and His love. And there's countless stories.
I mean, we could do a Google search right now and find countless, literally probably countless stories,
where forgiveness has been extended, where forgiveness should have never been extended,
and they're great stories. And we all get heart of all warm and fuzzy inside when we read them.
And when we when we experience the spirit that comes to us, when those who are exposed to us
and told to us. But when we're put in the middle of it, the vantage point changes, David.
And we have stories of the opposite to Scott Garnett. Of course. We have we have those who are
not able to forgive and the suffering that they choose. They choose to continue to be a victim.
They choose to continue to be acted upon. That's a choice they make by not accepting the power and
grace and mercy that's extended to them through the Jesus Christ and the power that He offers us to
forgive. So, Scott, we have examples in our own families, in all of our families, how forgiving
others can be a blessing. We have some amazing examples of that and how not forgiving can be such
a curse and and destroy individuals. And damning. Right. If not, if not destroy a family. Yeah,
it can actually stop us in our progress. It can stop us in totally stop. Just stop us, but it can
actually reverse our progress. Absolutely. In many instances. And and on this topic of repentance,
which we're really talking about, the reason we're talking about this is because we've been told
we can't be forgiven if we don't forgive. Right. And if we do forgive, we will be forgiven.
And we will receive grace for grace. You offer grace to the extent that you offer it.
It will be offered to you. The mercy will obtain the merciful, sorry, the merciful will obtain mercy.
Yeah, those aren't just great words on a page to read, right? There is so much power
and doctrine behind that sentence. Those are eternal. Absolutely. Those are eternal truths.
And one of the great examples of this in my own personal family is my wife's father,
who I loved my father-in-law, who was retired from the Air Force prisoner of war. Elder Gerald
Lund wrote an amazing book about his experience as a prisoner of war was one of the first test
pilots of the B 52. Anyway, an amazing man, very accomplished, but very loving and very Christlike.
And he was very successful, but he had retired and he was serving as a bishop and he was serving.
I remember when he was called to be a bishop, when he was like 60 years old, and he told us he'd
been called on a mission and he had the opportunity to kind of treat that calling as though it were
a full-time calling. And he just ministered to everyone every day. Yeah, he saw his calling as
being the bishop as a mission. Amazing bishop, really, very so loving. Anyway, his daughter
and her husband and family lived in his ward and it came out that his son-in-law
was being accused of sexually abusing young girls. And
my sweet father-in-law had to act on that and it was so hard on him and he actually was the one
who called the police as the bishop. He knew that the police and law enforcement should get
involved in this. And this was before they had a hotline, before the church even had a hotline.
And he called the police and then he called his daughter and he said, I just want you to be the
first to know. Police are coming over to arrest your husband and they arrested him. And there was,
I can't tell the whole story to protect the innocent, but it was really awful. And that man,
that husband, my brother-in-law went to prison and my sweet father-in-law would go visit him
and minister to him as his bishop and father-in-law and would minister to him weekly.
And let's put that in perspective. And when you say and father-in-law, that means that
that was his little girl's husband who had perpetuated allegedly, which came out to be,
he was later convicted, but he was perpetuating some really evil stuff, Dave. That was just...
Oh, it was so sad, really, Scott, what that family had to go through. And the
pain that it inflicted throughout the family, I mean, just like dropping a huge rock in a lake,
the ripples and the waves of all of that, the evil from all of that, that went through our
entire family. Scott had affected all of our family. And my father-in-law had to go back to work.
He had to go back to work to support that family and to help his daughter to finish her schooling,
so she could become a schoolteacher. And my father-in-law was willing to do all of that, except
all of that burden and pain, and yet forgive, visiting him, ministering love, ministering peace
in the gospel to this man in prison weekly. He visited him weekly, didn't he? I remember that.
That's a time when I was actually... He and I, your father-in-law and I, were working together.
I was actually working for him on a project that we were doing. And I was astounded, absolutely.
And at that time, I was maybe 23, 24 years old. But in my young, and I was drinking at that time
again, but I was still trying to keep my life in balance a little bit. But I was absolutely
astounded by the demonstration of Christ-like love that was extended to that poor soul who
had found himself in the throes of his own addiction. And your father-in-law... And I really
thought that, David. There have been a few people in my life that I look back on in memory of and
think, if there's a personification of Jesus Christ on this earth, it would have been... And
he definitely would have been one of them. Another one would have been your mom, my grandma.
But he was definitely one of those. And that was demonstrated through this love. So, you know,
and I want you to continue on. But I just want to interject right here that when I think of Jesus
Christ now, because of men like him and because of women like grandma and others in my life,
and there are others, when I think of Jesus, I think of them. Or when I think of them, I think of
Jesus. And one of the things that made them so Christ-like, so Jesus-like, was their ability to
forgive and genuinely continue to love. Yeah, absolutely. You can't separate forgiveness from
loving. I mean, if you love them, you'll forgive. And if you forgive, it's the greatest evidence,
I think, of your love. And I just don't know if that can be completely accomplished without focusing
on the love of Jesus Christ, which he demonstrated for each of us by suffering again, not only for
our sins, but for all the pains and for all the negative effects of all the sins of all the world.
I know there are many also terrible examples, Scott, of the bitterness that is in families,
which can absolutely destroy families because of the unwillingness for individuals to forgive.
Yeah. It's not just in families, too. I mean, it's in families, it's in communities, it's in
communities, it's in cultures, it's in tribes, it's in nations, it's in political parties, it's in,
you name it. I mean, yeah, this is part of what is really causing the great divisiveness that we
feel now is our inability to grasp Jesus Christ into our lives and to learn to forgive even small
things. What would seemingly be, I need to be careful in quantifying big and small things,
because what's big to one might be small to another and vice versa. But these are the kinds
of things that are really, and let's just call it for what it is. I believe that this, because it's
easily justified to not forgive because of our own pain, because of our own humanness,
it's sometimes in our own minds is easy for us to justify the lack of forgiveness. That's a tool
of the devil. No doubt about it. I mean, if Satan can cause bitterness in our hearts, which I know
he can, and make hate a part of our life, and block our ability to receive the gift of forgiveness
by either shaming ourselves and not forgiving ourselves, or by condemning others and not
forgiving others, then we're in his power. Right. Yeah. So we have a choice. We are free to choose
because of the atonement of Jesus Christ to act and forgive, or to be acted upon and continue to be
a victim by not forgiving ourselves and others. That is the ultimate choice. And the atonement
of Jesus Christ should make us free in and free us up by making the choice to receive him and his
atoning sacrifice, not only for our sins, but for those who sin against us and for the sins
that we have committed and the pain that we have caused others in their lives. So I think that Scott,
in order to really maybe nail this down, I should read from Doctrine and Covenants section 82,
the first commandment here, the connection that Christ makes to forgiveness and repentance.
Actually, 82 verse 1, section 82 verse 1. Verily, verily, I send to you, my servants,
that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another, your trespasses and sins we could add, even so I,
the Lord, forgive you. Wow. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. Is it really, is it that simple, Scott? Is it so
simple that if I forgive, if I'm willing to receive the gift, which I believe comes through the Spirit,
to forgive others, that I should take that as evidence that I am forgiven, the Lord will forgive me
based upon my willingness to forgive others? Is it really that simple? Then he goes on in verse 2,
nevertheless, there are those among you who have sinned exceedingly, yea, even all have sinned,
but verily, I say unto you, refrain from henceforth and refrain from sin, least sore judgments
fall upon your heads. Well, I think one of the great sins that we continue to commit,
which perpetuates itself, is not forgiving. Not forgiving others, Scott, is a sin. If we don't
forgive ourselves and others, we continue to perpetuate the sins, and Christ also suffered that.
We need to forgive. We need to allow His atoning sacrifice to free us up. So I think that we
need to be really serious, minded about this. I really invite, maybe I can invite all of us to
consider how we can receive greater peace in our lives. There's that one paragraph we should read
from the book, Scott, about what forgiveness is and what it's not. If you know which quote I'm
talking about in the chapter in Elder Anderson's book, and let's just read that paragraph or two
and end on that. But I just want to give an invitation to all of our listeners to really
evaluate their lives and consider, maybe, if there is anyone in their life who they continue to hold
bad feelings for or grudges towards, who they need to forgive, who they need to choose to forgive,
and they need to choose to receive the gift to forgive others in their life and to seek for
that gift through prayer, through receiving the gift of charity, to be able to receive the gift,
to be able to see others as God sees them and to be able to offer mercy according to the conditions
of others. We need to seek for that gift and I invite our listeners to evaluate their lives
and to seek the gift. Another personal inventory. Before I read the quote from the book, Dave,
and thank you, before I read the quote from the book, I want to go back to the scripture that
you just read in Doctrine and Covenants section 82 verse 1. It says, Verily, Verily, I say unto you
my servants that inasmuch, and this is the word I want to focus on for just a second, that inasmuch
as you have forgiven one another your trespasses even so I the Lord forgive you, so inasmuch,
we can sometimes, and I think in our minds we do, substitute that with that because you have forgiven
one another your trespasses even so I the Lord forgive you. So it's kind of a hitch word, right?
Because you have then this, because of this then that. Well, I don't think that that's really what
it means. I think it, to me, it's more of a level of degree, right? So that inasmuch, so to the
degree that, right? And so if I substitute that word with that, Verily, Verily, I say unto you my
servants that to the degree that you have forgiven one another even so I the Lord forgive you.
And I think that we'll find that to be true in our lives. And the reason, the ultimate reason
that's true, Scott, is because if we don't forgive others, we are sinning. That's right, because,
and again, if we talk about repentance, repentance means turning towards the Savior. If we're
turning towards the Savior, we're forgiving others. We are never more Christlike. We're not
forgiving, we're committing a sin of omission. And we are never more Christlike than when we are
forgiving others. That's what he was born to do. That's the gospel of love. That's exactly right.
And the gospel of redemption, which he taught. One time I was sitting in an alcoholic's anonymous
meeting. It was a Tuesday afternoon. I'll never forget it. It was about this time of year. I had
maybe six years sober and I was sitting by my sponsor at the time. It was at a lunch meeting.
And I had the vantage where I could see the door where everybody was entering. And so he's,
this guy comes in that I knew from a past experience that was extremely ugly, that he had
offended me in deep ways and members of my family in deep, deep ways. And I'm sitting next to my
sponsor, his name's John, at the time, his name's John. And he could just fill me tints up and he
says, what the heck is wrong with you? And I said, I'll tell you later. And then we sat through
the meeting and then he pulls me aside and he says, Scott, you got to tell me what's going on.
And I said, I know what you're going to say, but this guy that just walked in, I've really got,
and I had talked to him about the situation. And I said, that's the guy. And I said, I know, John,
you're going to tell me, pray for him. I know that's what I need to do. And he says, Scott,
that's not what I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you, you pray for you. You need to pray
for you, brother. You know, you need to receive that change of heart, whether he does or not,
that's up to him. That's none of your business. But you need to receive that change of heart.
And so, you know, along with that with the invitation that we extended, that there are those
that have offended us. And if we take that inventory and we list out where those offenses lie,
it's a very healing process to pray for them, sure, if we're able to. But even before we can
sometimes, and I'm speaking from my own experience, but even before sometimes we can do that, we need
to pray for ourselves that our alignment with Jesus Christ may be more pure and may be more
swallowed up in his will, you know, broken heart and contrite spirit, the whole thing that we've
been talking about. So here's the paragraph that Dave just referenced from the book, The Divine
Gift of Forgiveness. This is on page 225. Again, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness by Elder
Neil L. Anderson. Forgiveness is not excusing accountability or failing to protect ourselves
or families and other innocent victims. Forgiveness is not continuing in a relationship with someone
who is not trustworthy. Forgiveness is not condoning injustice. Forgiveness is not dismissing the hurt
or disgust we feel because of the actions of others. Forgiveness is not forgetting, but
remembering in peace. And we might add through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and His power
thereby felt. Remembering in peace through Christ and His Atonement. That's forgiveness.
Again, understand what forgiveness is. You must understand what it is not.
It is not about trusting others. It's not about forgetting it. It's not about holding them
accountable. It's not about that. It's about remembering in peace because you have chosen
to accept the power of Christ in your life through His Atonement.
And as we go to our next episodes, we will definitely be continuing this topic for at
least another episode. This is one that's important. We have just begun to scratch the surface. It's
very textured. It's very multifaceted. And we intend to touch on each of those facets as we go
through. Because I think the hardest for many of us, maybe most of us, the hardest person to forgive
is ourselves. And we need to talk about that. And indeed we will. And we'll give it to our full
effort as we do that in our next episode. Dave, do you have anything final to impart to us before
we conclude today? No. It's so good to be with everybody. And the blessing this is in my life,
I pray in the lives of our listeners to focus again our thoughts on Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
Again, keeping the striving to keep the commandment that He gives us in Doctrine and Covenants
section six. Look unto me, He said, in every thought, doubt not, fear not, behold the wounds in my side,
and the prints of the nails in my hands and feet. I love that. And then He says, and keep the commandments,
and you'll have eternal life. So I pray that we'll keep the commandment
so that we can put on the Atonement of Jesus Christ that will keep the commandment to forgive
to forgive others that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, His mercy, grace, and redemption will
flow into our lives. That's my prayer for me, for you, Scott, for our families, and for all our listeners.
Thank you. Thank you, Dave. I add mine to that. And I also, I just testify that the things that
we're talking about here, though they may be difficult for some of us to embrace in difficult,
and for very good reason in a lot of cases. But I promise all of us that as we embark on the journey
and begin to embrace the forgiveness of others, and maybe even more importantly, the forgiveness
of ourselves, again, we'll talk about that in subsequent episodes. As we do this, we do begin
to feel more Christlike, because this really is the most Christlike thing, maybe arguably,
but maybe the most Christlike thing that we can as humans do, and that's to forgive others.
Thanks for being with us, everybody. It's been another great episode. We encourage you once
again to reach out to us with your comments, your questions. Remember that as we embark on life,
that our Heavenly Father is acutely aware of the details in our life. He knows every little
thing that's going on, the joys, the sorrows, those that are made known to everybody, those that are
hidden within the dark chambers of our own souls. Just know that because of and through the blood
of Jesus Christ, you have been redeemed. Thanks for being with us. We look forward to next week.
Until then, be well. May God bless you.