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Hey there everybody, welcome to Redeem Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope,

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healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My name is Scott Durfey and

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I want to be the first to welcome you out today. I also want to introduce my partner,

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our teacher in this project, Brother David Durfey. Say hi Dave.

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Good to be here, buddy. It's good to have you with us as always, Dave. Listen, game, a couple of

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things before we get rolling today. I just want to as always thank you all for the amazing emails

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that we've been receiving and really heavy emphasis on the word amazing. We've had some,

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just some wonderful emails. We've had some great questions. We'll probably be able to answer briefly

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a couple of those today as part of our podcast, but we've also received some great insights from a

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lot of you and we really appreciate those insights. We appreciate any feedback, insights, questions,

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all of that. So please keep those coming. As always, you can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com.

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That is heredeemsusatgmail.com. So again, just encourage it to keep those coming. We try to

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incorporate your questions where we can. We have actually responded personally to a few emails. I

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hesitate to say that because I'd like you to manage your expectations around that, but there

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have been a couple of times when we've been able to do that. So gang, we've had a couple of great

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podcasts a couple of weeks ago. You'll remember we had an interview with my wife Deb Durfee. We've

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had just an overwhelming, she has to an overwhelming response already on that. We appreciate that. I

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know that there's been a lot of lives touched through her and through also our other couple of

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guests that we've had, both Scott Harmon and Nate Moller as well. And we look forward to having more

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guests come in the future. We have a couple of those already lined up. A few of them, well,

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all of them that we have lined up, I'm very excited for. I know Dave is too, and we're anxious to get

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those interviews out and in front of you as well. So today, we're going to be talking about as we

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continue along the vein of forgiveness and the repentance process and those types of things.

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We've got a great podcast, I think in store for us today as we begin to talk about forgiveness.

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But before we do that, Dave, what thoughts do you have that you'd like to share with us or

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before we get rolling into the topic today? Well, thank you, Scott. It's so, so great, so sweet

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to be here, be able to talk about these things. And I think it should be clear

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here by now to everyone who listens to these podcasts that our great objective in all of these

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podcasts is to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and the redemption that He offers us. You know,

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there's many titles that Jesus goes by, and I love all of those titles, over a hundred of them.

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But I think the one that I love the most is Redeemer. And it's interesting that in the

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scriptures, when God talks about His plan or when prophets talk about the plan of God,

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the term they use the very most, it's 14 times in the Book of Mormon, is they refer to it as the plan

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of redemption. Redemption and Christ is the Redeemer. Again, we believe, as Brother Robert J.

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Matthews taught and said to me personally, that we believe in the gospel of redemption,

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not assimilation. This is not a gospel about assimilating good habits. Anybody can assimilate

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good habits. The restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is a system of redemption,

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not a system of assimilation. I just think that it's so easy for us to lose focus on that.

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And a few episodes ago, we listened to your sweetheart, Scott Debra, your beautiful bride

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and wonderful wife. And she was, I think her story is a great example of that. You know,

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she had been taught and it had been so emphasized in her life about commandments. And I love

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commandments and God loves commandments and obedience is the first law of heaven. And we're a

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gospel of commandments and we're a gospel of covenants. It's true. Amen. However, if Jesus Christ

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is not the center of all of that, if you put commandments before you put Jesus Christ as the

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center and focus of your life, you're going to be pretty messed up. You're not going to be doing

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things for the right reason. You're not going to find real joy, true joy, the joy of Christ

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if he is not the focus of our lives. It's all about having a relationship with him. And that's

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our true objective and purpose of these podcasts is to help all of us to draw closer to Jesus Christ,

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to accept him as our redeemer and our Savior, and to be able to receive redemption through his blood,

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his sacrifice, his atonement for all of us individually. Anyway, I just think it's good

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that we maybe in a moment, just for a moment today, that we refocus and restate our objective

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admission here. I appreciate that, Dave. And let's go back just a little bit. You were talking

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about the commandments and how if we just continually, and I agree too, they're important.

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They are definitely one of the ways that we can obtain the spirit of our Heavenly Father in our

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lives, thereby putting on the atonement of Jesus Christ. You talk about if we focus too much,

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well, not too much, but if we focus solely, and that's our only focus is on those types of things,

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you say we're not able to have joy in its fullness and all those other things. But another thing that

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we do get when we focus that way is we get frustration. We get frustration, we get despair,

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we get discouragement because there's just no way any of us are ever going to be 100% perfect

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to keep in every commandment that's been set forth for us to keep. And when you talk about

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redemption, that's why that is so key to our not just eternal life, but our mortal lives and having

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peace in this mortal life is once we develop that relationship with that, with our Savior Jesus

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Christ, and when that relationship brings to us a refocus on Him, and as we repent daily there,

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which means again turning to Him fully and turning our backs on anything that's not of Him,

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thus breaking the commandments, I think that we can have a more full relationship with Him

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if we have that perspective in order. I think that's good that you brought that up.

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Well, I think there's a lot of people who are throwing in the towel, giving up, maybe leaving

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the church, not maybe, but I know some are, who are struggling. And I think it's because they never

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truly focused on Jesus Christ and His Atonement and what the restoration

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of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us about Him. You know, Scott, honestly,

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when I was a young man and for probably years after my mission until I was sometime in my 30s,

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I saw the gospel as a system of commandments and a system of assimilation and was trying hard to

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be like Jesus, and I kept the commandments so that I wouldn't need the Atonement.

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Yeah, yeah. So that I wouldn't have to repent. And I wised up, and I think a lot of that had to do

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with my experience as a branch president at the Missionary Training Center and other opportunities

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to serve and my experience working with volunteering at the prison and other things.

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I learned, Scott, which completely changed my approach to living the gospel, completely changed

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my perspective of how I see the gospel and completely flipped the gospel from a system of

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work to a system of grace in my life. I saw keeping the commandments as an opportunity to put on

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the Atonement. Right, me too. So I see the commandments as extremely important. Why?

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Not so that I don't need to repent. I see the gospel as a system of redemption that I have

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commandments and covenants to help me to repent. I have commandments to help us put on the Atonement

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of Jesus Christ, not so that we don't need it. That's a different approach and perspective.

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Yeah, it is. And I think I've received this feedback from people I know personally as we've

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wrote this out. People are just so grateful, grateful to have a different understanding

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of the way Heavenly Father sees us and the way then we can now begin to see Him. That whole

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relationship changes when that idea changes, Dave. I was so thankful for the email that we

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received from a member of a bishop, Rick, who's serving currently in a bishop, Rick, according to

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his email, who talked about how he now sees as a result of some things that we've shared and discussed.

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He now has kind of a different perspective of his relationship with Jesus Christ. And

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I made me, and I know it did you as well, Scott, made us so happy. Because that's really, I guess,

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our objective. How can we put on Christ in His Atonement and receive redemption and see the

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gospel of Jesus Christ as a system of redemption? I'd actually like to read one paragraph from

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that email, Dave. So Hadley, if you're listening, we won't use your last name to protect your

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anonymity here. But if you're listening, this is for you. And actually from and by you. One of the

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things that I've realized is that I've always had a relationship with Jesus. But I'm finding out it

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was a pretty toxic relationship. I thought that was an interesting view. And I wonder how many of

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us have had that same kind of toxic relationship going on. Here he goes on. He says, I viewed

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him through the distorted. I love how he wrote this too. I have viewed him through the distorted

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lens of my own insecurities so poorly, that I never got to meet the real Savior. I've always

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known an angry, judgmental, condemning Savior that didn't actually exist. I love that.

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I do too, Scott. And that made me really grateful. And I think it made our Heavenly Father happy

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that, you know, if we could just see things as they really are, it would be such a blessing for us to

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see ourselves, to see others, even to see our Savior for who they really are. And maybe that leads us

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into our topic for today, Scott, which is how can we forgive? How can we forgive others?

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And how can we forgive ourselves? And I think just to start out, because we just said it, is

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to be able to see ourselves the way God sees us and to be able to see God the way He sees us.

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And the way He really is. Yeah, the way He feels about us and the mercy

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and the lack of condemnation that He feels towards us. He feels nothing but compassion

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towards us. I mean, we've been commanded to forgive others, and we're going to talk about that now.

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But maybe we should start out just by talking about the character of Jesus Christ when the woman

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who is caught in the very act of adultery is brought before him in John chapter 8. Jesus

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leans over and writes some things down, and I'd be really interested to know what He was writing

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down in the sand. And maybe He was writing down, I know it's been speculated that He was writing down

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down maybe some of the names or sins of the sins that had been committed against others

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by the Pharisees and Sadducees or whatever. It would be interesting to know what He was writing.

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But anyway, no stones were ever thrown. He was without sin, let him cast the first stone, Jesus

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said. Then He goes over to the woman individually, compassionately. Woman, where are thine accusers?

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Neither do I condemn thee. Go thy way and sin no more. Scott, this is six months out before He

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suffers and bleeds from every pore for that woman's sins. Those sins hurt Jesus personally.

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Yeah, right. And anytime we sin, it is a personal assault to Jesus Christ, and He is so

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merciful, gracious, and willing to forgive, not only forgive, but to never condemn. And if Jesus

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Christ who was without sin, if He can't condemn a woman who is caught in the very act of adultery,

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who am I a sinner to condemn anybody? I can't condemn anybody. And I shouldn't condemn myself.

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I'm a sinner. But there should be no condemnation in that Jesus doesn't condemn me. And if Jesus

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who was sinless would not condemn me or others, I can't condemn me or others. This idea, Dave, of

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forgiving others is a very, some may call it a very altruistic approach, right? To like, oh,

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that's so benevolent that you could do that. And that's a great idea. That's a great thing to strive

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for. That's a great thing that the mystics and the yogis and the others of other spiritual traditions

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teach and so forth too. But oftentimes, an experience in reality will rip us right back

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into our reality. And we realize sometimes some of us realize that this forgiving others is just

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not all that easy. As a matter of fact, you know, in the world of recovery, where I again spend a lot

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of my time, I think that we've made that quite clear over the various episodes. But if you're

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just tuning in for the first time maybe on this episode, just to let you know that on October

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26, I will celebrate 24 years of continuous sobriety. And I've been practicing that as part of a

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an addiction recovery program, well known but anonymous. And I, one of the things in that,

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Dave, that we begin to deal with very early on is this concept of forgiving others. You know,

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we, it's actually, we begin it in the fourth step. That's literally where this whole process

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starts to begin. The first three steps have to do with cleaning house and in our relationship

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with our Heavenly Father, not cleaning house, but our relationship with our Heavenly Father.

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And then when we start in four and five, that's when we really start cleaning house. And that's

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where we begin to take personal inventory, which we've talked about. And we've talked about the

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importance of that. We've made invitations actually around that. Hopefully you've participated in

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that experience. But when we begin this process and we start to take that inventory and we look

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at the things in our lives where resentment and anger and those types of things have been so

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damaging to our spiritual wellness, therefore our soul, therefore creating all kinds of spiritual

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and emotional and other confusions within us, which is really a lot of the reason why a lot of

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people drink and use drugs and do other behaviors that, to just kind of distract our feelings from

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those types of things. Well, when we start dealing with and diving into those experiences that we've

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had with other people and we realize that forgiveness might be part of our process, that can be a

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difficult thing. And so I think that as we dive into this, this will take some courage. And I pray

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for that courage for each of us as we look at ourselves, as we consider where we are in this

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process ourselves, as we start to get promptings from the Spirit where maybe this needs to be

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something in our lives that needs to take place. I promise you in the name of Jesus Christ that

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through His power that is enacted upon us through His Atonement, which is administered to us,

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through His Spirit, even the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, that as those things happen in our lives,

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that things will change, even our relationship with Him changes, our relationship with our

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self changes. And so as we embark on what we are stepping into today and maybe even in subsequent

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podcasts because of the enormity of this concept itself, I encourage us all to look for the peaceable

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things that the Savior will enable us to have through His Atonement as we start doing it.

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Scott, as a result of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we're taught in the Second Nephi that

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we are free to act, not be acted upon. But the reality is we are all acted upon. We're all victims.

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That's just a fact. We've all been sinned against. We've all been offended, sometimes even by members

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in the church, members out of the church. We've all been hurt by others. However, because of the

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Atonement of Jesus Christ, Scott, we choose to be victim if we do not make the choice or keep the

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commandment to forgive. We are free. We do not have to be a slave to the sins of others. We are free

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to act. And that means to me, we are free to forgive. I do not have to continually suffer

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victimization the rest of my life, no matter how bad or horrible it may have been. We need the

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Atonement of Jesus Christ and the power that can flow into our life through Jesus Christ and His

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Atonement, Scott, to forgive. We can't be forgiven without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And I believe

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that in the worst cases of being sinned against, we don't have the power to forgive humanly without

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the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of Christ, the Light of Christ, the power and gift

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to the Holy Ghost is a blessing to us to help us to forgive. So we're not asking anyone to just on

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their own willpower to forgive others. The ability and gift, it's a gift to forgive others flows into

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our lives through Jesus Christ. He has not given us any commandments that we can't keep. Nephi

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right, declares that early on in 1st Nephi 3.7. I will go and do. If the Lord doesn't ask us to do

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anything that He doesn't give us the power to do, well, He has clearly asked us, no, He's clearly

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commanded us over and over again in the Scriptures to forgive others. And I believe that means

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including ourselves, but He gives us the power, the enabling power, the strength, and the gift and

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spirit to be able to do that. So you have to, I think to ultimately forgive, you have to see it

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as a commandment from God through the teachings of Jesus Christ. And then you have to see it as

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a gift that has to be received through the Atonement of Jesus Christ in order to really keep that

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commandment. In Matthew 6 verses 14 through 15, this is what the Savior says. And this is the

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Sermon on the Mount, right? That's exactly right. Repeated again and bountiful in the Book of Mormon.

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He says here, He says, for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also

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forgive you. But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you

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your trespasses. So there's the commandment. And further in the Sermon on the Mount, Scott,

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we're taught that the difference between the law of Moses and the law of many other world

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religions, frankly, it was I for an eye, tooth for a tooth. But Jesus Christ taught a different law.

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And the higher law, the celestial law, and the law of Christ is that we need to forgive. In the

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Sermon on the Mount, it reads, and I'm reading from the Book of Mormon account that He gave at

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Bountiful in 3 Nephi chapter 12. Behold, it is written also that thou shalt love thy neighbor

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and hate thine enemy. But behold, I say unto you, love your enemies. Bless them that curse you.

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Do good to them that hate you and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.

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That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, for he maketh his Son to rise on the

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evil and on the good. So I love the gospel is that we love. It's a gospel of love. It's a gospel of

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forgiveness. It's not a gospel of revenge or a gospel of getting even or making things

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completely fair. That's not what the gospel is about. The atonement of Jesus Christ did that.

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The atonement of Jesus Christ fulfilled that. And us offering mercy, Scott, does not deny or rob

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anyone from receiving justice. No. I think some people think they don't want to forgive others

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because they want to punish them. They think it's, it's, it's, they have to give them justice,

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which is I have to hate them or, or I have to get back at them or I have to, somebody who has hurt

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me, my, my natural man desire is that they receive justice. Well, justice is not mine to give.

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Justice is God's to give and mercy that I give cannot rob the justice that God will forgive

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and mercy that God forgives obviously doesn't rob the justice. In fact, mercy, Scott, I believe

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fulfills justice. Yeah, I think it does too. Right here, elder. Well, this was President

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Ezra Taft Benson actually gave his famous talk. We're all pretty much aware, I believe, of this

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talk on it's called Beware of Pride. It was in 1989. And this is just a little snippet from that.

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And he's making reference to 1st Nephi 16, verses one through three, when he says the scriptures

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testify that the Proud are easily offended and hold grudges. And so, you know, that's a sign of

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pride. We talked about pride several episodes ago, too, right? The, the role of fear and pride in

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our stumbling blocks towards progress. Well, here's one of those pride issues that can come up

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through not forgiving or the idea of forgiving others. Again, he says the scriptures testify

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that the Proud are easily offended and hold grudges. They withhold forgiveness to keep another

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in their debt and to justify their injured feelings. We see that given to us by a latter

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day prophet. But then we also, if we go to Luke chapter six, verses 36 through 38, and give us

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this pointing on your merciful, on the mercy, right? He says, be therefore merciful, as your

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father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall be not judged. Condemn not, and you shall be not

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condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. Give, and it shall be given unto you good measure,

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pressed down and shaken together and running over. Men shall give into you your bosom. For with that

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same measure that ye meet with all, it shall be measured unto you. I love the imagery that he gives

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here with good measure, pressed down and shaken together. You know, that, that means as much as

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he can possibly compact into one vessel, right? Packed down, shaken together, made as, made as

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full as he possibly can. Yeah, yeah. He used that often. I think in order to really forgive, Scott,

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one must understand again the atonement of Jesus Christ and what he really suffered for.

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And this is in Elder Anderson's book again, but it's such an important doctrine that Jesus

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Christ not only suffered for the sins that would be committed, Jesus Christ suffered for the sins

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that would be committed against me. In other words, he, he suffered for those who would be hurt.

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He suffered the pain that would be caused by sin, not just for the sin. I think understanding that

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doctrine should help all of us to exercise greater faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement in order

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to receive the gift of forgiveness, to be able to forgive others and to forgive ourselves. Many,

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I know, have a harder time forgiving themselves when they think about all the pain that they have

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caused others. Well, I get that. I understand that. We've, we've all done that. And so we

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continue to beat ourselves up over the pain that we've caused others. Well, how long,

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when do we fulfill that? The truth is we can't. We can't suffer enough for the pain that we've

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caused others, but we don't have to. Jesus suffered it. Jesus suffered for all the pains

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of all the world and for all the sins of all the world. You have to understand that doctrine,

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I think, to be able to truly receive the gift of forgiveness.

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Here's one of those stumbling blocks, though, and this comes up. It's come up in my life multiple

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times. And so I have a real, I have a lot of pictures to go with the words around this, right?

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And so, you know, I know that because of decisions I've made, and I'm not alone, I think every one

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of us have this. So this is not me beat myself up in front of thousands of people here. But,

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but what it is is me acknowledging that, you know, I know that because of my sins,

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it's caused a lot of pain and a lot of other people. A lot of those, a lot of other people

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are really close to me, my kids, for example, and others that I've loved, family members and so forth,

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because of decisions I had made in my past. And even still, sometimes I'm not perfect. I can even

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say things and do things that can be taken wrong or out of context, or maybe even I've been

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irresponsible in the way that I've communicated, and I can still do that. But when I look at this,

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it's, you know, and we go back to episodes way back in the past, in the very beginnings, when we

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started talking about who we really are and getting a glimpse of who we are and understanding who we

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are and our relationship with him. I think that for me, and I can only speak for me, but I think

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this probably applies to a lot of us, that when I have had difficulty looking at that, so when I've

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had difficulty forgiving myself, and we're going to get into that more and more later, but when

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I've had difficulty forgiving myself, it's also difficult for me to forgive others. I kind of

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say in that same vein, I've noticed that when I have a close relationship, when I have a deep

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understanding or clarity around my relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, you know,

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we go back to several episodes, Dave, I remember you saying, and I say this now when we teach our

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YSA Institute class at Brigham Young University here, that, you know, Heavenly Father has never

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been surprised by anything I've done, and He's never been really mad at me for anything I've done.

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No condemnation. No condemnation. He didn't condemn the lady that we talked about earlier,

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that was caught in the very act and other things, you know, and so when we realize and when we have

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that clarity in that relationship, that definitely has made that easier for me, and it's made it

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easier for me to realize, you know what, Scott, my soul is worth saving. My soul is worth having

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that relationship with my Heavenly Father. My soul is worth having peace in my soul through the

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atonement of Jesus Christ, even though there have been injury to others, or even though there's been

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injury to me. And it's all we get back, you know, I remember you saying early, early on, it's all

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about our relationship with Him. Yeah, it all comes down to our faith in Jesus Christ and His

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atonement and our understanding of that truth. So, Scott, I, we just can't emphasize strongly enough

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how this is not only a commandment, but that God has given us the power to keep the commandment.

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And I love the story that is in Elder Anderson's book, which is about Corey Ten Boom. Corey Ten Boom

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and her family were, lived in Holland and were part of the underground movement to save the Jews

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that were, you know, being killed in the holoca, part of the Holocaust. And they were finally,

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somebody finally discovered it and reported it and that her family, well, her, her sister and her

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dad and other members of the family were sent to the, the prison camps. And she was in the near,

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many years after was giving talks about this, right? And she was talking at this church about

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mercy and forgiveness and what it meant to be a true Christian and, you know, her sister,

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she was so close to her older sister Betsy and Betsy had suffered terribly in these prison camps in

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Robbins, Robbins, Bruch or however you say that in German. So, in, in her book in Corey Ten Boom's

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book, The Hiding Place, which is an amazing book, I recommend everyone to read that. Her and Betsy

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are having a conversation one day. I remember this from reading it. And Betsy, who's just, you can

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tell Corey just, is, just loves her and sees her as such a great example of Christianity. And

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Betsy, who has smuggled into the prison camps some pages of the Bible, she's hidden them from

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her captors who wouldn't have let her ever have the Bible in these, these prison camps.

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But she's got a few pages and she reads one of the pages, which is the writings of Paul,

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about how we should forgive everyone. And she's trying to teach Corey this. And Corey says,

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everyone, we have to forgive everyone. And she says, yes, Corey, you know, everyone. Anyway,

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she, Corey and Betsy are very close. And back to the book here, I'm reading from Elder Anderson's

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book on page 229. Following the war, Corey was determined to share this message, you know, of

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love and forgiveness. On one occasion, she had just spoken to a group of people in Germany,

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suffering from their averages of war. Her message was, God forgives. It was then that

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Corey Ten Boom's faithfulness brought forth its blessing. A man approached her. She recognized

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him as one of the cruelest guards in the camp. Can you imagine that, Scott? Come and face to face

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with one of your captors. Now, I can't even imagine that. And, you know, and she calls him the one

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of the cruelest. One of the cruelest, yeah. And this man says to Corey, you mentioned Ravensbrook

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in your talk, he said, I was a guard there. But since that time, I have become a Christian.

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He explained that he had sought God's forgiveness for the cruel things he had done.

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He extended his hands and asked, will you forgive me? Corey Ten Boom then said,

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it could not have been many seconds that he stood there. Hand held out. But to me,

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it seemed ours. As I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.

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The message that God forgives has a condition that we forgive those who have injured us.

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Help me, I prayed silently. I can lift my hand. I can do that much. But you have to supply the feeling.

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Woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to be by one of the cruelest

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guards, right? As I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder,

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raised down my arm, sprang into our joined hands, and then this healing warmth seemed to flood over

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my whole being, bringing tears into my eyes. I forgive you, brother, I cried, with all my heart.

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For a long moment, we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner.

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I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then. That's incredible. I think that is such a

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great story and example of how forgiveness is a gift. There's no way she could have done that on

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her own. But she knew it was a commandment because Betsy had taught that to her while they were

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prisoners. And Betsy had died a horrible death in that camp. But she had taught that lesson to

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Corey that they had to forgive everyone. And they had to love everyone. And Corey believed it

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and acted in faith, even though at first it was just mechanical. And God gave her the gift of love

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and forgiveness. A few minutes ago, we talked about how, because of the Atonement, the Atonement's

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here not just to heal us from our own sins, but from those that have been sinned against us. And

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what a perfect example of that right there. Right. That is humanly. I honestly believe

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that that is humanly impossible to do. It's a gift of the Spirit. Right. Yeah. Totally. And I know we

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don't, there's latter day saints, we don't have a monopoly on that. No, of course not. You know,

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that can be of any religion or any individual who desires that. But it comes through the light of

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Christ or the Spirit and influence of God and flows into our lives if we are willing to love.

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He will give that gift to anyone. Right. Right. You know, and there are stories like this, and we've

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heard them throughout our lives. I remember not that many years ago about a situation, and I haven't

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looked this up to get the exact dates, but maybe some of you will remember this as well, that on a

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Amish, in an Amish schoolhouse, I believe it was. Yeah, amazing story, movie. Yeah, that's right.

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They made that a movie. Love that movie. Yeah. So apparently, and I don't remember all the details,

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but there was murder and there. Man goes into a schoolhouse. Okay. He goes into an Amish schoolhouse.

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And kills the kids? Kills some people. Yeah, kills some children. Kills a bunch of people there,

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but the response of the people in that community is some of the most Christ-like.

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How they take in the murderers' family. Right. Yeah. Yeah. How the compassion that they show

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to the murderers' family. Right. Knowing that's what Jesus would do. That's such a great example

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the Amish give us in that true story about the Christ and His love. And there's countless stories.

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I mean, we could do a Google search right now and find countless, literally probably countless stories,

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where forgiveness has been extended, where forgiveness should have never been extended,

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and they're great stories. And we all get heart of all warm and fuzzy inside when we read them.

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And when we when we experience the spirit that comes to us, when those who are exposed to us

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and told to us. But when we're put in the middle of it, the vantage point changes, David.

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And we have stories of the opposite to Scott Garnett. Of course. We have we have those who are

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not able to forgive and the suffering that they choose. They choose to continue to be a victim.

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They choose to continue to be acted upon. That's a choice they make by not accepting the power and

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grace and mercy that's extended to them through the Jesus Christ and the power that He offers us to

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forgive. So, Scott, we have examples in our own families, in all of our families, how forgiving

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others can be a blessing. We have some amazing examples of that and how not forgiving can be such

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a curse and and destroy individuals. And damning. Right. If not, if not destroy a family. Yeah,

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it can actually stop us in our progress. It can stop us in totally stop. Just stop us, but it can

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actually reverse our progress. Absolutely. In many instances. And and on this topic of repentance,

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which we're really talking about, the reason we're talking about this is because we've been told

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we can't be forgiven if we don't forgive. Right. And if we do forgive, we will be forgiven.

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And we will receive grace for grace. You offer grace to the extent that you offer it.

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It will be offered to you. The mercy will obtain the merciful, sorry, the merciful will obtain mercy.

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Yeah, those aren't just great words on a page to read, right? There is so much power

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and doctrine behind that sentence. Those are eternal. Absolutely. Those are eternal truths.

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And one of the great examples of this in my own personal family is my wife's father,

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who I loved my father-in-law, who was retired from the Air Force prisoner of war. Elder Gerald

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Lund wrote an amazing book about his experience as a prisoner of war was one of the first test

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pilots of the B 52. Anyway, an amazing man, very accomplished, but very loving and very Christlike.

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And he was very successful, but he had retired and he was serving as a bishop and he was serving.

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I remember when he was called to be a bishop, when he was like 60 years old, and he told us he'd

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been called on a mission and he had the opportunity to kind of treat that calling as though it were

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a full-time calling. And he just ministered to everyone every day. Yeah, he saw his calling as

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being the bishop as a mission. Amazing bishop, really, very so loving. Anyway, his daughter

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and her husband and family lived in his ward and it came out that his son-in-law

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was being accused of sexually abusing young girls. And

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my sweet father-in-law had to act on that and it was so hard on him and he actually was the one

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who called the police as the bishop. He knew that the police and law enforcement should get

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involved in this. And this was before they had a hotline, before the church even had a hotline.

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And he called the police and then he called his daughter and he said, I just want you to be the

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first to know. Police are coming over to arrest your husband and they arrested him. And there was,

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I can't tell the whole story to protect the innocent, but it was really awful. And that man,

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that husband, my brother-in-law went to prison and my sweet father-in-law would go visit him

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and minister to him as his bishop and father-in-law and would minister to him weekly.

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And let's put that in perspective. And when you say and father-in-law, that means that

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that was his little girl's husband who had perpetuated allegedly, which came out to be,

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he was later convicted, but he was perpetuating some really evil stuff, Dave. That was just...

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Oh, it was so sad, really, Scott, what that family had to go through. And the

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pain that it inflicted throughout the family, I mean, just like dropping a huge rock in a lake,

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the ripples and the waves of all of that, the evil from all of that, that went through our

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entire family. Scott had affected all of our family. And my father-in-law had to go back to work.

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He had to go back to work to support that family and to help his daughter to finish her schooling,

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so she could become a schoolteacher. And my father-in-law was willing to do all of that, except

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all of that burden and pain, and yet forgive, visiting him, ministering love, ministering peace

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in the gospel to this man in prison weekly. He visited him weekly, didn't he? I remember that.

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That's a time when I was actually... He and I, your father-in-law and I, were working together.

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I was actually working for him on a project that we were doing. And I was astounded, absolutely.

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And at that time, I was maybe 23, 24 years old. But in my young, and I was drinking at that time

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again, but I was still trying to keep my life in balance a little bit. But I was absolutely

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astounded by the demonstration of Christ-like love that was extended to that poor soul who

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had found himself in the throes of his own addiction. And your father-in-law... And I really

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thought that, David. There have been a few people in my life that I look back on in memory of and

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think, if there's a personification of Jesus Christ on this earth, it would have been... And

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he definitely would have been one of them. Another one would have been your mom, my grandma.

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But he was definitely one of those. And that was demonstrated through this love. So, you know,

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and I want you to continue on. But I just want to interject right here that when I think of Jesus

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Christ now, because of men like him and because of women like grandma and others in my life,

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and there are others, when I think of Jesus, I think of them. Or when I think of them, I think of

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Jesus. And one of the things that made them so Christ-like, so Jesus-like, was their ability to

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forgive and genuinely continue to love. Yeah, absolutely. You can't separate forgiveness from

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loving. I mean, if you love them, you'll forgive. And if you forgive, it's the greatest evidence,

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I think, of your love. And I just don't know if that can be completely accomplished without focusing

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on the love of Jesus Christ, which he demonstrated for each of us by suffering again, not only for

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our sins, but for all the pains and for all the negative effects of all the sins of all the world.

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I know there are many also terrible examples, Scott, of the bitterness that is in families,

401
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:07,000
which can absolutely destroy families because of the unwillingness for individuals to forgive.

402
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Yeah. It's not just in families, too. I mean, it's in families, it's in communities, it's in

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communities, it's in cultures, it's in tribes, it's in nations, it's in political parties, it's in,

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you name it. I mean, yeah, this is part of what is really causing the great divisiveness that we

405
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feel now is our inability to grasp Jesus Christ into our lives and to learn to forgive even small

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things. What would seemingly be, I need to be careful in quantifying big and small things,

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because what's big to one might be small to another and vice versa. But these are the kinds

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of things that are really, and let's just call it for what it is. I believe that this, because it's

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easily justified to not forgive because of our own pain, because of our own humanness,

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it's sometimes in our own minds is easy for us to justify the lack of forgiveness. That's a tool

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of the devil. No doubt about it. I mean, if Satan can cause bitterness in our hearts, which I know

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he can, and make hate a part of our life, and block our ability to receive the gift of forgiveness

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by either shaming ourselves and not forgiving ourselves, or by condemning others and not

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forgiving others, then we're in his power. Right. Yeah. So we have a choice. We are free to choose

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because of the atonement of Jesus Christ to act and forgive, or to be acted upon and continue to be

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a victim by not forgiving ourselves and others. That is the ultimate choice. And the atonement

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of Jesus Christ should make us free in and free us up by making the choice to receive him and his

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atoning sacrifice, not only for our sins, but for those who sin against us and for the sins

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that we have committed and the pain that we have caused others in their lives. So I think that Scott,

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in order to really maybe nail this down, I should read from Doctrine and Covenants section 82,

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the first commandment here, the connection that Christ makes to forgiveness and repentance.

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Actually, 82 verse 1, section 82 verse 1. Verily, verily, I send to you, my servants,

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that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another, your trespasses and sins we could add, even so I,

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the Lord, forgive you. Wow. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. Is it really, is it that simple, Scott? Is it so

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simple that if I forgive, if I'm willing to receive the gift, which I believe comes through the Spirit,

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to forgive others, that I should take that as evidence that I am forgiven, the Lord will forgive me

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based upon my willingness to forgive others? Is it really that simple? Then he goes on in verse 2,

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nevertheless, there are those among you who have sinned exceedingly, yea, even all have sinned,

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but verily, I say unto you, refrain from henceforth and refrain from sin, least sore judgments

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fall upon your heads. Well, I think one of the great sins that we continue to commit,

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which perpetuates itself, is not forgiving. Not forgiving others, Scott, is a sin. If we don't

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forgive ourselves and others, we continue to perpetuate the sins, and Christ also suffered that.

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We need to forgive. We need to allow His atoning sacrifice to free us up. So I think that we

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need to be really serious, minded about this. I really invite, maybe I can invite all of us to

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consider how we can receive greater peace in our lives. There's that one paragraph we should read

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00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:58,280
from the book, Scott, about what forgiveness is and what it's not. If you know which quote I'm

437
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:04,280
talking about in the chapter in Elder Anderson's book, and let's just read that paragraph or two

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and end on that. But I just want to give an invitation to all of our listeners to really

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00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:19,640
evaluate their lives and consider, maybe, if there is anyone in their life who they continue to hold

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00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:27,320
bad feelings for or grudges towards, who they need to forgive, who they need to choose to forgive,

441
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and they need to choose to receive the gift to forgive others in their life and to seek for

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00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:43,320
that gift through prayer, through receiving the gift of charity, to be able to receive the gift,

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to be able to see others as God sees them and to be able to offer mercy according to the conditions

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of others. We need to seek for that gift and I invite our listeners to evaluate their lives

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and to seek the gift. Another personal inventory. Before I read the quote from the book, Dave,

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and thank you, before I read the quote from the book, I want to go back to the scripture that

447
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you just read in Doctrine and Covenants section 82 verse 1. It says, Verily, Verily, I say unto you

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my servants that inasmuch, and this is the word I want to focus on for just a second, that inasmuch

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as you have forgiven one another your trespasses even so I the Lord forgive you, so inasmuch,

450
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:30,680
we can sometimes, and I think in our minds we do, substitute that with that because you have forgiven

451
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:36,440
one another your trespasses even so I the Lord forgive you. So it's kind of a hitch word, right?

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Because you have then this, because of this then that. Well, I don't think that that's really what

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it means. I think it, to me, it's more of a level of degree, right? So that inasmuch, so to the

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degree that, right? And so if I substitute that word with that, Verily, Verily, I say unto you my

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servants that to the degree that you have forgiven one another even so I the Lord forgive you.

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And I think that we'll find that to be true in our lives. And the reason, the ultimate reason

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that's true, Scott, is because if we don't forgive others, we are sinning. That's right, because,

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and again, if we talk about repentance, repentance means turning towards the Savior. If we're

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turning towards the Savior, we're forgiving others. We are never more Christlike. We're not

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00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,760
forgiving, we're committing a sin of omission. And we are never more Christlike than when we are

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forgiving others. That's what he was born to do. That's the gospel of love. That's exactly right.

462
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And the gospel of redemption, which he taught. One time I was sitting in an alcoholic's anonymous

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meeting. It was a Tuesday afternoon. I'll never forget it. It was about this time of year. I had

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00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:50,600
maybe six years sober and I was sitting by my sponsor at the time. It was at a lunch meeting.

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And I had the vantage where I could see the door where everybody was entering. And so he's,

466
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:02,600
this guy comes in that I knew from a past experience that was extremely ugly, that he had

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offended me in deep ways and members of my family in deep, deep ways. And I'm sitting next to my

468
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:15,560
sponsor, his name's John, at the time, his name's John. And he could just fill me tints up and he

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00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:21,240
says, what the heck is wrong with you? And I said, I'll tell you later. And then we sat through

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the meeting and then he pulls me aside and he says, Scott, you got to tell me what's going on.

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And I said, I know what you're going to say, but this guy that just walked in, I've really got,

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and I had talked to him about the situation. And I said, that's the guy. And I said, I know, John,

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you're going to tell me, pray for him. I know that's what I need to do. And he says, Scott,

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that's not what I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you, you pray for you. You need to pray

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00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:50,200
for you, brother. You know, you need to receive that change of heart, whether he does or not,

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00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,520
that's up to him. That's none of your business. But you need to receive that change of heart.

477
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:59,000
And so, you know, along with that with the invitation that we extended, that there are those

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00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:05,240
that have offended us. And if we take that inventory and we list out where those offenses lie,

479
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:13,560
it's a very healing process to pray for them, sure, if we're able to. But even before we can

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sometimes, and I'm speaking from my own experience, but even before sometimes we can do that, we need

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00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:23,400
to pray for ourselves that our alignment with Jesus Christ may be more pure and may be more

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00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,800
swallowed up in his will, you know, broken heart and contrite spirit, the whole thing that we've

483
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:33,000
been talking about. So here's the paragraph that Dave just referenced from the book, The Divine

484
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:38,200
Gift of Forgiveness. This is on page 225. Again, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness by Elder

485
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:43,000
Neil L. Anderson. Forgiveness is not excusing accountability or failing to protect ourselves

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or families and other innocent victims. Forgiveness is not continuing in a relationship with someone

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00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:57,640
who is not trustworthy. Forgiveness is not condoning injustice. Forgiveness is not dismissing the hurt

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or disgust we feel because of the actions of others. Forgiveness is not forgetting, but

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remembering in peace. And we might add through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and His power

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01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:18,120
thereby felt. Remembering in peace through Christ and His Atonement. That's forgiveness.

491
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Again, understand what forgiveness is. You must understand what it is not.

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01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:33,720
It is not about trusting others. It's not about forgetting it. It's not about holding them

493
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:42,520
accountable. It's not about that. It's about remembering in peace because you have chosen

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to accept the power of Christ in your life through His Atonement.

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01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:56,680
And as we go to our next episodes, we will definitely be continuing this topic for at

496
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:01,720
least another episode. This is one that's important. We have just begun to scratch the surface. It's

497
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:09,000
very textured. It's very multifaceted. And we intend to touch on each of those facets as we go

498
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:17,800
through. Because I think the hardest for many of us, maybe most of us, the hardest person to forgive

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01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:28,040
is ourselves. And we need to talk about that. And indeed we will. And we'll give it to our full

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01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:33,080
effort as we do that in our next episode. Dave, do you have anything final to impart to us before

501
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:38,760
we conclude today? No. It's so good to be with everybody. And the blessing this is in my life,

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01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:47,960
I pray in the lives of our listeners to focus again our thoughts on Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

503
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:54,040
Again, keeping the striving to keep the commandment that He gives us in Doctrine and Covenants

504
01:01:54,040 --> 01:02:08,920
section six. Look unto me, He said, in every thought, doubt not, fear not, behold the wounds in my side,

505
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:17,720
and the prints of the nails in my hands and feet. I love that. And then He says, and keep the commandments,

506
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:24,600
and you'll have eternal life. So I pray that we'll keep the commandment

507
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so that we can put on the Atonement of Jesus Christ that will keep the commandment to forgive

508
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:40,280
to forgive others that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, His mercy, grace, and redemption will

509
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:48,280
flow into our lives. That's my prayer for me, for you, Scott, for our families, and for all our listeners.

510
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:57,640
Thank you. Thank you, Dave. I add mine to that. And I also, I just testify that the things that

511
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:03,320
we're talking about here, though they may be difficult for some of us to embrace in difficult,

512
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:12,920
and for very good reason in a lot of cases. But I promise all of us that as we embark on the journey

513
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:19,000
and begin to embrace the forgiveness of others, and maybe even more importantly, the forgiveness

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01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:25,240
of ourselves, again, we'll talk about that in subsequent episodes. As we do this, we do begin

515
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to feel more Christlike, because this really is the most Christlike thing, maybe arguably,

516
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but maybe the most Christlike thing that we can as humans do, and that's to forgive others.

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Thanks for being with us, everybody. It's been another great episode. We encourage you once

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01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:48,440
again to reach out to us with your comments, your questions. Remember that as we embark on life,

519
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:53,880
that our Heavenly Father is acutely aware of the details in our life. He knows every little

520
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:58,920
thing that's going on, the joys, the sorrows, those that are made known to everybody, those that are

521
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:04,680
hidden within the dark chambers of our own souls. Just know that because of and through the blood

522
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:10,280
of Jesus Christ, you have been redeemed. Thanks for being with us. We look forward to next week.

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Until then, be well. May God bless you.