Hey there everybody, welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood.
In this podcast we discuss hope, healing, and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus
Christ.
My name is Scott Durfey.
I want to be the first to welcome you out today and as always it's my honor to welcome
our partner in this project and our amazing teacher, my friend, Brother David Durfey.
Say hi Dave.
My friend and nephew.
That's right.
I'm excited, Scott, this morning to continue our discussion on the process of repentance
in the doctrine of Christ.
So it's good to be here.
So gang, just a couple of housekeeping items before we get into today's topic, but we want
to again thank everybody for the emails that are being sent.
We've received a lot of great emails, a lot of great experiences recently.
Holy cow, and they've been awesome to read.
And you know, we are incorporating a lot of your questions and a lot of those things
in our discussion here and just encourage you to keep sending those.
You can do that at heredeemsusatgmail.com.
That's at heredeemsusatgmail.com.
So keep those coming.
We appreciate it very much.
And as always, share this with your friends too.
We appreciate the new listeners.
We want to say a special welcome to you and, you know, what reminds you, all of you, that
these classes, I almost called them classes, these podcasts are really meant to build one
on top of the other.
If you go back all the way to episode one, if you're just brand new to us, if you'll
go back all the way to episode number one, you'll have a more complete experience by
doing it that way.
Now, each one of these does stand on its own.
Each one of these will have benefit and we believe edification if you'll just listen
to them on their own.
But to get the complete experience and to really have the understanding that we're praying
that all of us and ourselves included will have, it might be important to go back and
kind of visit and pay attention to some of those things there as well.
Well, it'd be awesome, Scott, if everybody did see these as classes.
You know, hopefully we're learning together.
Hopefully not just teaching doctrine and learning new things, but actually experimenting upon
the word and trying to make some changes in our life.
And I think we try in most to give invitations, most podcasts or most episodes, we try to
give an invitation.
Yeah.
And I hope that individuals are kind of accepting some of those invitations like assignments
and trying to incorporate some of those things in our life as we'll talk about today.
I know that, you know, the invitations that we have extended, I've tried to do that myself.
I take pretty seriously courses of action.
This is something that...
Yeah, likewise.
Yeah, I know.
We were just talking about that, Dave.
I'm impressed at some of the stuff that you've been, that you've been impressed to study
and maybe even sharpen up in your own life over the past weekend.
And it's been edifying for me to hear about that as we've talked about that in preparation
for our podcast.
Living the gospel, Scott, is a continual daily, day by day, moment by moment, joy and process.
And I'm just really thankful that through the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, that He can continually
not only bring things to our remembrance, but teach us new things as well.
And that's something we should be trying to do daily.
That's one of the things that just for me makes it so exciting.
You know, I really enjoy the growth and those types of things that I get to experience.
You know, and again, as I've accepted the assignments that we've extended in my own life,
they've been a huge benefit to me.
And I'd like to think even a benefit to those around me because I'm hoping and trusting
that they're maybe even making me a little better person sometimes.
So well, Dave, we concluded, we didn't actually conclude, but our last episode, we talked
about a lot about repentance, a lot about what it is.
We still have a lot more to discuss on that.
That's why I struck the word conclude in my sentence just a few seconds ago there.
Well, that's also a daily thing.
It is.
And we are just sinners helping sinners, Scott.
I keep saying that, but I know it's true.
And even though I just said we try to live the gospel moment to moment, hour by hour,
day by day, we, you know, we're just, we're just human.
We're fallen by nature.
We have to remember that.
That's part of our identity.
That's part of God's plan that we would be falling that we would, that we would sin that
we would have to rely upon his son and the plan of redemption.
I just, I just think it's, oh, I don't know, Scott, it just gives me such joy to know that
he trusted me to be a sinner, that he trusted me to be fallen, knowing that it would be
not through me, but through his son that I would be able to return back into his presence.
Yeah.
That's the way we should live our lives.
And for me, again, it's just so exciting to be able to have a different look on repentance.
And I didn't just gain this over the last week or three or four or whatever, but, but,
but as I have, you know, Dave, as we've had conversations over the years around this and
you've helped me to understand repentance and as Deb and I, my sweetheart wife, Deb
and I have taught this class at YSA Stake Institute at BYU and UV Utah Valley University
as we've done that.
And as I've come to understand repentance the way I understand it now and, and I'm still
gaining a deeper understanding around it, repentance is exciting to me now because what that means
to me is it's not, I used to see repentance as I'm focusing on my sins.
I got to get them out.
I got to really dive down on this one.
I got to really work hard on that one, you know, for this one, I maybe need to cease this
person for that one.
I maybe need to do this.
And even though all of that may still have some truth to it, you know, depending on what
it is, et cetera, that's not what it is though.
For me, what it is now, which is so exciting is to just deepen my relationship with my
Savior Jesus Christ.
The only way it can, you can see it that way.
The only way it can seem to be exciting, the only way repentance can bring you joy is if
it is totally absolutely completely centered in the atonement of Jesus Christ and that
we receive his power through the atonement.
Scott, that, that's really the key to this, to this whole gospel is to learn to rely upon
him.
As he said in John chapter 15, I am the vine ye are the branches without me ye can do
nothing.
And I think he was talking mostly there.
You just can't spiritually progress.
You can't repent.
Yeah.
Well, so that's where we were last week.
This week we're going to continue with that a little bit.
So Dave, where do you want to take off?
Well, last week we talked about confession and the important role, critical role that
confession is.
We talked about, I think, I hope we answered the questions.
Why do we confess?
And maybe I should just, I think I kind of really emphasize the, the role of taking responsibility
is the reason why we should confess.
Reading the church handbook this week, I was also impressed with what it said about confession
and, and I love the line that's in the church handbook that we should confess our sins to
unburden ourselves.
It's not just a matter of taking responsibility or hear ourselves say it or, or to, to come
forth and be forthright and, and completely honest.
But we also confess our sins to our Heavenly Father and certain serious sins we confess
to church authorities to unburden ourselves.
I think that it really is true and I know it can be such a blessing to be able to, in
the case of certain serious sins, to go into a, a someone who holds priesthood keys, especially
particularly like a bishop who holds the keys of the Aaronic priesthood and the keys
of repentance, which is what the Aaronic priesthood is centered on is the administering of angels
in the gospel of repentance and to confess to the man who holds the priesthood keys of
the gospel of repentance.
What a blessing that can be in our lives when we've committed certain serious sins.
So anyway, I, I just, I think maybe I over-emphasized the role of confession in us taking responsibility
for our sins and I didn't emphasize enough last week the blessing it is to unburden ourselves
of sin through confession.
Yeah.
Let's talk about why that unburdening is important too because that paragraph, I'll read the
whole paragraph.
This is right from the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints general handbook.
The purpose of confession is to encourage members to unburden themselves.
Okay, unburden themselves.
And that's great.
You know, we all want to be unburdened.
You know, that's important to all of us.
But why?
Well, here's why.
And it goes on.
So they can carefully seek the Lord's help in changing and healing, developing a broken
heart and a contrite spirit is aided by confession.
Every confession shows that a person desires to repent.
And then there's a reference there from the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2,7.
And that says, Behold, He offered Himself a sacrifice for sin to answer the ends of the
law, He being, of course, Jesus Christ, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite
spirit and to none else can the ends of the law be answered.
There is no other way, Dave.
Yeah.
So, Scott, thank you for emphasizing that part of confession that it aids us in acquiring
a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
So the scripture that comes into my mind in that regard, broken heart and contrite spirit,
Scott, is 3 Nephi 9, verse 20, if you want to read that.
It says, And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize
with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me
at the time of their conversion were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they
knew it not.
Well, I just love this part that having a broken heart and a contrite spirit not only
fulfills the conditions, I think of repentance that begin the process of repentance, but
it must be also the condition that leads us throughout the entire process of repentance.
And confession can certainly help in that regard.
And I think it's so great, this verse of scripture that teaches us that a broken heart and contrite
spirit is the sacrifice that God expects from us, his children.
We know that Jesus Christ literally died from a broken heart.
Elder Talmadge taught that in Jesus, the Christ literally died from a broken heart.
Well, our part, that was his atonement and our part in our repentance is that we need
to have a broken heart in order to begin and finish and continually be engaged in the process
of repentance.
That's the sacrifice we need to make.
Right.
Well, we talk about broken heart, we talk about contrite spirit, and of course, it just
as a reminder, and we've said this because it's been taught to us, and we've cited that
in podcasts, several of those in the past, but you know, to have that broken heart and
then the contrite spirit means that we have our will and Heavenly Fathers will be the
exact same.
Our will is swallowed up into his.
When our will becomes his, completely like his, or they're one in the same actually,
that's when we know that contrite spirit is taking place in our lives as well, Dave.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I hope that we have answered most of the questions when it comes to the process of
repentance.
The who do we confess to, the why we confess, and what do we confess?
Again, what we confess, I go back so often to the statement in general conference by
President Mary and G. Romney, which kind of became the standard was, you know, any crimes
that we've committed or any sins that are of a serious enough nature where participating
in ordinances of the gospel would be in question or that even perhaps our membership in the
church might be in question.
Any sins like that should be, should be confessed.
I love the new general handbook.
It gives so many great instructions on kind of the role of the church in the process of
repentance.
It's important listening to your beautiful bride, Deb last week, Scott and her experience
going in as a adolescent to confess her sins and her bishop shaking his head and saying,
Oh, no, and oh my goodness, how heartbreaking that was to hear of that experience.
And I know our priesthood leaders try the best they can, but, but they're just humans
and sinners helping other humans and sinners too.
But they do have priesthood keys, ironic priesthood keys and the gospel of repentance keys.
And so that process is important.
But it's also important that we understand we're not going in to receive forgiveness
from the church when we confess our sins.
That repentance is not an institutional activity.
That repentance is through the Lord Jesus Christ and forgiveness is through him alone.
That is emphasized over and over again in Elder Anderson's book and in the handbook
of instructions.
So we go in and we confess our sins and then there may be as a result of certain serious
sins.
There may be a membership council that needs to be held to help us in that regard.
Scott, there are three purposes why a church membership of restriction or withdrawal has
to be considered by priesthood leaders and why a membership council may be held.
Number one is to help protect others.
In other words, innocent victims.
If others have been involved in our sins and others have been hurt and there's been any
victims involved, maybe a membership council would be helpful in that regard.
Along those lines too, often, and I know this is the case because I've had conversations
with people around this, but often when we say others have been hurt, we think of some
sort of physical thing.
We think of a physical abuse or we think of a sexual abuse or a sexual sin or a sexual
murder or things along those lines, which is true and it's important.
But there's also financial situations.
There's also fraudulent situations where people's lives can be damaged and ruined financially
and various things like that because of the dishonesty of others.
And oftentimes, these councils will be required in situations like that as well.
I just wanted to point that out that this is a broader view than just the narrow what
we sometimes think of commonly when we talk about these things.
So that's the first reason.
The second is to help a person access the redeeming power of Jesus Christ through repentance.
In other words, the salvation and redemption of the individual.
That's the second reason why the church may need to have a membership council.
And the third is to protect the integrity of the church.
If the sin is of such a serious nature that the public knows about it and that there are
it's in the news and it's broadcast and all these things are out there, the integrity
of the church is also has to be critically considered in that decision.
So those are the three considerations why a membership council would need to be called.
And there are certain serious sins, Scott, that when they are committed, a membership
council is not only considered but required.
And those are sins of a serious nature such as felonies, most felonies, not all but most
sins such as murder.
Here's a list from the handbook of instructions, murder, rape, sexual assault, conviction,
child or youth abuse, abuse of a spouse or another adult, predatory behavior, violent
sexual or financial, incest, child pornography, plural marriage, serious sin while holding
a prominent church position and most felony convictions.
When any of those things are involved, a priesthood leader understands that they must
have a membership council.
And again, remember why to protect innocent victims to help the individual in his or her
redemption and salvation and to protect the integrity of the church.
Membership councils can take place on a ward basis.
They can take place on a stake basis.
Ward basis, a bishop would preside over a membership council on a stake basis.
Stake presence would preside over any stake membership council.
Or there could be a mission president could preside over a mission membership council.
And the outcomes of that can be basically that one has some limitations put on their
membership where they maybe can't participate in everything in the church or some limitations
put on it where maybe they can't, or they can't talk in church or they can't pray in
church or they, they would maybe be limited in certain callings that they could have in
church.
And that's, that's one result of a membership council is to have some, some sort of restrictions
on their membership or they could have their membership removed.
Dave, I'm going to ask you a question and we didn't prepare for this.
So I'm catching you probably a tiny bit off guard with this, but I know you'll have an
answer.
So how do you reconcile them?
Because we say that, you know, we don't pay for our own sins and we say that this is not
a punishment for our sins.
How do we reconcile that?
How do we, how does somebody who feels like I'm being punished because I can't participate
in certain things in my congregation because of a church council or a membership council
that may have been held and that was imposed on me?
How do I reconcile that?
How does one who's going through maybe those restrictions right now, how do we help them
not feel like that is some sort of a punishment?
I have some of my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours first.
Well, I, I've been in many, many membership councils, Scott, and I do testify that they
are, they are councils of love and that they're, they're done out of love ultimately for the
individual and of course for those who may have been affected by one's sins.
But, but, you know, whether it's a restriction of membership or whether it's a withdrawal
or membership, you know, sometimes Scott, it is such a blessing to learn to lose certain
privileges and blessings in our life to help us to appreciate what we could have had, should
have had, would have had.
It also is a blessing to us to help us to give us a bit of a pause or a time out to
be able to consider some of the privileges and blessings that we, that we have enjoyed.
And sometimes you can't fully appreciate them until they're gone.
So I think that's, I think that's one way that those things are blessings to us is to
just give us pause and to help us consider privileges and blessings of membership in the
church.
I would agree with that.
I think, as a matter of fact, I think that is perhaps the biggest benefit that can come.
They, so having, and I mentioned this, I believe it was in episode 17, maybe 18, maybe 20,
I don't remember for sure, but I've mentioned more than once potentially that, you know,
because of gang, we've talked about it and I've exposed that I am a recovering alcoholic.
I will have 24 years of continuous sobriety come October 26 of this year.
But because of my past, because of a lot of decisions that I was making, drinking being
one of those, I, membership council was something that I participated in as one that was being
counciled in this membership council.
And that was my experience, Dave.
Now, but, but here's the difference.
And I've talked to other people who haven't had this experience and I want to be careful
with this because I don't want to cast dispersion or judgment and or anything like that by comparison,
especially because there have been times when I have also sat in a bishop's office and there
were things that were potentially imposed that I wasn't ready to hear and because of
my own bitterness, it led me further perhaps created a little more distance on my behalf,
right?
But when I went in and had my membership council where my membership was ultimately lifted,
I didn't feel like punishment to me.
As a matter of fact, it felt like, you know, we talked about what repentance is and we've
talked about how that is a complete turning to the Savior, turning away, not focusing
on those things in our lives that have kept us separated from the Spirit, which has kept
us from feeling the effects of Jesus Christ atonement in our lives.
So when I went in and when that happened with me for me, not to me, but for me, when that
happened for me, what that did, Dave, was that allowed that turning to be complete, at least
more complete?
Even though my membership had been lifted, even though I was no longer eligible to attend
temple, the temple and fill the Spirit there, even though and everything else that comes
with that, even though all of that was in place, I was able to now begin to turn to
the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and fill the Spirit and the effects of the Spirit in
my life and perhaps, unfortunately, perhaps one of the greatest blessings of my life.
Yeah.
Amen.
Scott, I've seen that.
I've worked to closely one on one, one by one with individuals who have had membership
restrictions or withdrawals in their life and they've expressed that same thing.
And as a priest and leader, I also see it as a blessing to an individual by not holding
them as accountable until they have overcome their sins.
You don't want an individual, you ask an individual not to participate or you put restrictions
on their membership to not participate in certain ordinances so that the burden is lifted
from them in not being worthy to participate in those ordinances.
I mean, the words of the Savior in 3rd Nephi is, a bishop has a responsibility, a priesthood
leader, to help an individual not to drink, speaking of the sacrament here, not to drink
damnation to their soul.
So it's also a blessing by letting them pause and kind of declutter their lives and simplify
their lives here and give them time to work out the process of repentance so that when
they're participating in those ordinances, they feel the full effects of those and those
ordinances don't hold them to a higher standard or more accountable than they're able to at
the time that they confess their sins or in the middle of their sinning that they're
not accountable for.
Darrell Bock Well, I just kind of threw that in parenthetically,
actually.
You were beginning to talk about what the effects could happen.
What could come from a membership council?
And you said that there could be restrictions in place.
Why don't you go ahead and cover the other ones as well?
Darrell Bock Well, so it's the restrictions of membership or withdrawal of membership.
Then there can be all kinds of different restrictions.
We used to call those be put on place on probation in some ways for a few months or a year or
whatever.
It just depends.
It's kind of like King Benjamin says, I can't begin to describe all the sins that can be
committed and no priest or leader can begin to describe all of the different circumstances
of sin or individuals and all things must be taken into consideration.
Not only the sins that have been committed but the context and the circumstances.
Darrell Bock The conditions.
Darrell Bock Right, the conditions of an individual
and the circumstances of the sin.
All those things are taken into consideration, Scott, and it's really a miraculous thing.
I guess that's the word that comes into my mind more than any other is the miracle of
church councils.
The spirit that is felt, I mean, really, it's pretty amazing to sit in these councils and
I've sat in these councils as a bishop and member of a couple of stake presidencies and
to hear all the information that you can to gather all the information from the individual
involved and maybe even from some witnesses and some victims, sadly, and take all that
information and then to go hear it and then take it before the Lord as a bishop, Rick
or as a stake presidencies and to feel the revelation and the spirit that comes and to
know what the Lord feels is best for that individual and for the victims and for the
church.
And I just, I'm thinking right now in my mind so many sweet examples of that and how maybe
two different individuals can commit the same sin and the outcome of a membership council
can be very different.
And I just think there's many people on the outside looking in who can be really harsh
in on saying the church did this or the church did that.
I'm telling you until you're involved in those councils, behind those situations and you
hear all the details and then you take it to the spirit or you take it to the Lord and
through the spirit you can feel what's right.
For example, I know of some individuals who didn't do very serious things and yet it was
best for them to stop them in their sins by giving them some pretty difficult restrictions
on their membership.
Where I know of other individuals where based on what they've done their membership should
be withdrawn based on if you just went by the sin but where perhaps it wasn't because
of the effects on the individual or other individuals.
I also think it was amazing in one membership council where we knew as a stake presidency
that that individual had already been forgiven of their sins.
They had committed some really serious sins and that really they probably should have
their church membership withdrawn.
However, we felt like the Lord had already forgiven this man of his sins.
However, we knew that if he wasn't, if his membership was not withdrawn, not taken from
him that number one, he would never be able to forgive himself.
Number two, there would be innocent victims who would also be pushed further away from
the church.
There's just so many considerations and it's really a miraculous experience to feel the
spirit in those councils.
I can remember both of my councils when it came to my membership being removed.
The first one was the confession council that happened that lifted my membership.
I remember sitting going there but before I went there, I had a couple of close friends
that I had talked to about this.
They knew of people that, you know what, Scott, I know somebody that's had the same situation.
You're going to be fine.
What they meant by you're going to be fine is your membership is going to stay intact.
That really has nothing to do with being fine or not in situations like this but that's
what they meant.
You're going to be fine.
I just knew, I knew though in my heart that it wasn't going to be that way.
I was okay with that.
As a matter of fact, as part of that process, Dave, that first one, I was really praying
that the outcome would be what it was because I knew even in myself what it needed to be.
What happens is you have a council, you talk, you share some experiences, you share what's
happened, you share and you get some council and a few other things like that.
Then I was invited to kind of step into the hall while they counseled among themselves.
When I stepped into that hall as they counseled among themselves, I have never felt more peaceful.
Except for, and there was one time when I have felt more peaceful but at that point
in my life, I have never felt more peaceful.
The reason, now I share this experience because I hear experiences shared like this on podcasts
and in social media and anecdotally from our neighbors and friends that that's not always
been the case.
No matter where you are, you've been in a stake presidency, a bishop and all of those
other things on that side of it.
Here I am coming from this side.
We always hear a priesthood leader say what you just said.
I'm saying that from that chair, from that side of the table, and there's no that side,
this side of the table.
I'm speaking metaphorically because we're all on the same team.
We're all on the same side of the table as it were.
But metaphorically speaking, as I was sitting on that, because I've been sitting on that
side of the table, I bring a perspective, Dave, that I hope others can hear.
Gang, what happened there helped me to turn to the Savior more fully in a way that I could
have never before.
And that turning towards Him began that day.
I didn't have to wait to be re-admitted, to be re-baptized, to have those blessings restored.
But when I did, and I had that counsel, similar situation, very, very tender.
I was at a different place, that was more than a year later, completely different place
within myself and with my relationship with my Heavenly Father through my Savior Jesus
Christ.
They asked me to walk out.
It was a similar process.
We talk about what's happened, where we've been, and it's very tender.
It was an emotional experience.
For me, there were tears, and I had my sweetheart by my side, and another good friend, Mike,
who was there by my side.
When it was done, and I walked out, I had the most peaceful feeling.
That was the most peaceful feeling I've ever had.
That's amazing, Scott.
Thanks for sharing it.
I have known of some individuals that I've participated in membership councils with who
were not at peace over the decision that was made, who were perhaps angry about it, and
who didn't agree with it.
It is interesting that individuals who don't agree with it can appeal it.
They can go to a 70, they can go to higher councils in the church.
If they don't agree with the bishops' decision, they can go to the stake president, they don't
agree with the stake president's decision.
They can go to the 70, if they don't agree with the 70, they can go to the members of
the 12, and then the first presidency.
I've been in some of those situations where an individual was really upset and angry, and
where decisions were either reinforced by a higher council in the church, or, Scott,
in one case where the decision was changed by a higher council in the church, and in
that case where membership was withdrawn, and as it went up to the council's higher
councils of the church where that decision was changed, I can tell you that that was
kind of a wrestle for us as local priesthood leaders, thinking, why did we feel so impressed
to have his membership withdrawn, and yet it's been changed by other, by a higher council,
and I can tell you again that the spirit whispered to us peace, and the answer was, well, you
got his attention.
He needed to know that his membership in the church meant something to him, and even to
only have it withdrawn for perhaps a short time was enough to get his attention and to
change him, and I pray that that's the case.
So anyway, I'm grateful for the role of the church in the repentance process, Scott.
I recognize the divinity of it, the spirit involved in it, and yet I again repeat, repentance
is not an institutional activity.
It is through the Lord, our Narsavir, Jesus Christ, whose church we belong to, and whose
leaders are led by priesthood keys and the spirit and power and influence of the Holy
Spirit, and I just testify I know that's true and been so grateful to have those experiences
in my life that have reinforced my testimony, not only of the atonement of Jesus Christ
and his willingness to forgive us, but has also increased my testimony of the power and
divinity of his church and priesthood keys.
Well, I think that, you know, as our listeners, Dave, are listening to this, I hope that
we're able to maybe instill a little courage in somebody who maybe need a little courage
in this regard, maybe instill a little comfort to somebody who may need a little comfort
in this regard, and I'm going to extend an invitation that if that's you, experiment
on his word.
Do what is what we're talking about here, and I promise you, if you do that with an
eye single to his glory, not your own, but if you do that with an eye single to his glory,
in a real effort, a real conscious effort to make conscious contact with him and have
him in our lives so that we can put on the atonement of Jesus Christ and heal from the
things that these things take us away from or make ill in our lives, if we can heal
from those things through the atonement of Jesus Christ, I can promise in the name of
Jesus Christ that his spirit will be with us, that we will be back on a path that's
more connected to him, and through that have more joy and peace.
That's part of that joy process, Dave.
And before we move on, Scott, I know we don't represent the church.
I know that, and so everything that we've said has been our own experiences and our
own thoughts and feelings offered sincerely to our listeners.
And yet, because we don't represent the church, and yet we've had some experience with this,
if any of you who are listening have some serious questions or concerns about this,
you feel that we can help you with, or counsel as friends, not as priesthood leaders, or
just as friends, please email us, and we'll respond to those in a private personal way.
So I invite members, if anything that we've said, and we haven't answered your questions,
to perhaps send us an email with those questions, and we'll try to respond to those privately
and sincerely and in a sensitive way.
At T-redeemsus.com.
Well, so let's leave Confession in the role of the church for just a minute and talk
about perhaps a really important part of, I think, repentance, and that is restitution
and what it means to make restitution, Scott.
So restitution literally means, right, to restore what was lost.
Restitution and repentance would mean to restore what is lost as a result of our sins.
Now it's pretty easy to restore a pack of lifesavers if we've stolen a pack of lifesavers, like
I did when I was a little boy, and my mother caught me and made me go to the store manager
and pay him $5 when the, can you believe this, the pack of lifesavers was $0.05.
Grandma.
$0.05.
And she made me pay him $5.
Well, look.
I think that's a hundredfold.
Yeah, that's a hundredfold in the, what, 1965, probably dollars or something like that.
But yeah, you had a good month.
I can't remember if that was before I was baptized or after.
I hope I've been washed or received a remission of my sins there.
I do too for a few sakes.
Just trying to restore and then some what was lost, we should say as a result of our
sins.
I know Elder Anderson quotes the scripture in his chapter in his book on this chapter
on restitution that it's like Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount that if a man asks for
your coat, give him your coat and your cloak, if he asks you to go a mile, go with him twain.
So, you know, restitution is really trying to restore what was lost and then some.
But the truth of the matter is, Scott, when we get to really certain serious sins, boy,
there's not very much we can restore.
I mean, how do you restore virtue if you've robbed somebody of their virtue?
How do you restore somebody's self respect?
When you have abused or bullied anyone?
I mean, how do you restore the hurt and the pain that you've caused if you've been involved
in certain criminal behavior?
I you you just just as humans, we we just are so limited.
However, and this is such an important part of this discussion, however, Jesus Christ
did pay not only for all the sins of all the world, but he paid for all of the negative
outcomes and consequences of all the sins of all the world.
And victims need to understand that that he paid for what they are suffering.
He suffered for their suffering and he can restore through the atonement of Jesus Christ
and through the compensatory powers of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
He can restore all things that were that were lost.
I will never forget the power and spirit I felt in prison in the Utah State prison.
When Elder Anderson told an inmate who had asked him the question, how can we ever get
back what some of us have lost?
How can how can we ever have restored to us what we've lost?
And Elder Anderson saying with great passion and spirit through the atonement of Jesus
Christ, there is nothing that is permanently lost.
All things can be restored through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I just got I can't tell you how many things and circumstances went through my mind when
he said that, but I knew it was true.
I knew that it was true.
I also know Elder Bateman and others who have spoken on this in general conference.
Jesus Christ can restore virtue.
He can restore anything that's been lost either as a sinner or as a victim of sin.
And that's the important doctrinal point that has to be made when we talk of restitution.
So if there are things that I have done as a sinner since I have committed that I can't
restore, I testify that Jesus Christ can restore those things.
So if Jesus Christ then restores those things, what is my role in making restitution after
trying to restore everything that I can, even though it may be a very small part?
My restitution is to try to make it back to Jesus Christ.
He becomes my creditor.
He becomes the individual that I must turn to and where my debt is to him.
And we serve him.
I love the parable, one of his greatest, one of his very last in Matthew 25 when he says,
in as much as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it unto me.
I think that is the principle of restitution that so many of us do not think about.
That our restitution is to Jesus Christ after we have tried to restore to everything we
can and then some to those who we have hurt or taken advantage of or robbed.
But Jesus Christ then restores everything else and we try to restore to him what was
lost by serving others where he said, when I was in prison, you visited me.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was hungry, you fed me.
I mean, that is what it means to make restitution, Scott.
And that's one of the things that I think we often struggle with, you know, again, as
being part of a recovery program for many years now and sponsoring people in this head
program and so on.
You know, one of the 12 steps, in fact, is step number nine.
Step number eight is goes back to kind of an inventory.
It's not the inventory step that we talked about a couple of episodes ago, which is actually
step four where we take as searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
But in step eight, we make a list of all persons we had harmed and become ready and willing
to make amends to them all.
You know, that's also part of this restitution.
And then in step nine, we begin to carry that out.
Now here's the thing, though.
Because we're not able to completely to completely restore that which we have caused damage for
or that which is lost through our own ability.
And Dave, you just mentioned, you know, how that restoration is made.
And you say that, you know, that the way we do that is in as much as you have done it
unto the least of these from Matthew 25, right?
In as much as you have done it unto the least of these, my brother, and you've done it unto
me.
I think that's a principle that really deserves some attention because it's impossible.
In my case, I don't know in every case, but it's impossible for me to know even everybody
who I've hurt.
And I don't mean physically.
I don't mean financially, but you know, maybe emotionally, maybe through a feeling of being
bullied, maybe through a manipulation, maybe through an intimidation, maybe whatever.
So it would be impossible.
And if I focus on those things, it's like, I just don't know if I've done it all.
And I think it's important that I have that retrospection that I look in and make sure
that I'm as thorough as I can be.
But it's also important that I realize that principle that you just put forth, which was
that in as much as you have done it under the least of these, my brother, and you have
done it unto me, meaning that the way I can get back to Jesus to have him more in my life,
to have that restoration take place in my life and pray for that restoration to be in
effect in other people's lives, even those that I may not be aware, I must live that
immense.
I must live that restoration principle in my life, which means I'm in the Scriptures
and I'm putting on the Atonement of Jesus Christ through having the Spirit with me,
which means that when I see and have an impression to do something for somebody and I ignore
that, maybe I'm in a situation of self-deception, you know, or maybe when I honor that, then
I'm doing what he would do in as much as you have done it under the least of these.
And then by so doing, I am then living that immense and it's interesting to me, it's
been phenomenal.
It's been a wonderful experience for me that as I've done that, that those snaggings in
my mind that can also be propagated by the enemy, let's be clear, but those snaggings
in my mind about you haven't done enough, you'll never do enough, it won't be enough,
Scott, this repentance isn't complete because you don't even know how to complete the repentance
process because you don't even know who all to restore or make restitution to.
And this is real for me, right?
And so to know that by having that relationship with him, by honoring the impressions he gives
me about how he would want me to treat and be with his children, my brothers and sisters,
as we walk this journey together, regardless of what side of the journey we're on, regardless
of our direction, regardless of our opinion or our persuasion or anything else, if I'm
showing love to his children, if I'm responding to the promptings that he gives me in a positive
manner, I'm living that immense and those things don't seem to consume me in the way
that they would otherwise, Dave.
And if you have faith in the power of Jesus Christ through his atonement that he really
did suffer for those who you hurt.
I just think that's really important to stop the shaming that we place upon ourselves and
the hurt that continually never goes away when we think about others who we have hurt
either literally or by our bad example.
I mean, there's no way we can restore what was lost as a result of serious sins that
we commit.
But if I have faith in the power of Jesus Christ through his atonement that he will
compensate those individuals, not only did he suffer for my sins, but he suffered for
the consequences of what others suffer.
That also, Scott, takes away this guilt complex or shaming that I think so many people suffer
with and what does it do to my relationship with Jesus Christ as you were describing?
Oh my goodness, it just helps me feel more indebted, more grateful for him and his atonement
and my restitution after I've done everything that I can to try to apologize and to make
up for and maybe that may not even be received by victims who are not willing to forgive
me and instead of just continually shaming myself, I don't have to receive their forgiveness
to move on.
I can do everything that I can and then some, pay back 100% 100 times what was lost and
if they still don't forgive me, I know that Jesus Christ will compensate them and that
he suffered for them and therefore I should be able to be able to trust in him and place
my faith in him and move on.
I think this is such an important part of the doctrine of redemption and the atonement
of Jesus Christ.
So yeah, I think that we do this, Scott, this serving Jesus Christ and making restitution
by being better children in our families, better brothers and sisters.
We do this by being a better husband, better wife.
We do this by being a better mother, a better father, a better grandfather, a better grandmother.
It starts in our home.
We do this, we can make restitution in our home by trying to take better care and be
more effective in our teaching of the gospel and living of the gospel in our home.
And then it goes out to the church and we magnify our callings.
We seek to magnify our callings and to serve others in our water or our stake or in the
church.
And then it goes out beyond the church to strangers and individuals who we meet on the
street and wherever we are.
And anyway, there's so many, there's so many levels of this, Scott, that where we can,
where we can seek to visit and to strengthen and to help and to serve others.
Yeah.
There's another aspect too.
You know, we should do this in our home.
We should do this in our relationships.
And I think maybe even first we should do it in our own, within ourselves.
Yeah.
Right?
And we should do it in ourselves.
Give ourselves a break.
Yeah.
Give ourselves a break.
And it gets back to our earlier episodes, you know, where we really begin to understand
who we are.
If we really begin to understand who we are and whose we are, that we're His.
We always have been.
And He purchased us.
And it's through our choice that we remain His through our choice of our actions and
our behaviors and our alignment and all of those other things.
You know, that's how we get that into our lives, that part of it.
And I think that that's where that piece comes in order for those other, you know, rectifications,
if you want to call them that in the family's lives and church and stuff like that.
I think that when I look myself in the mirror today and I can be okay with my alignment
with and my relationship with Jesus Christ and fill His love and His power in my life
through His Atonement.
I think that puts me on a pretty good trajectory to start affecting change and in a positive
way in those other areas as well.
That's true for whether I have sinned or whether I have been sinned against, whether others
have sinned against me.
We need to exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Atonement to not only make
restoration, Scott, but to have things restored to us.
So we try to restore and we receive, we try to make restitution and we receive through
the Atonement of Jesus Christ, His peace and His healing and His love.
So that's, I think, an important part of the process of repentance that we receive His
restitution in our lives, that we receive the Atonement of Jesus Christ and His suffering
in our lives, whether we sin or whether we've been sinned against.
I think one of the powerful things about these addiction recovery groups is that, you know,
you and others who have been overcome addictions many, many years ago continue to serve and
continue to in some ways make restitution, which maybe some of us will for the rest of
our lives try to make restitution by helping others not make the same mistakes that we've
made.
Right.
So we're more of a making restitution by helping to teach others or to try to help one by one
or groups to learn what we have learned and to be able to not have to experience what
some of us have experienced as a result of our sins and our mistakes.
So I think that's a part of restitution as well.
Yeah, and not just that, but, you know, not to help people just avoid mistakes and maybe
navigate the mistakes that we have made, but also to instill the hope that can only come
through the power of Jesus Christ.
To instill that hope, to instill that direction in my life, to have that as my beacon, as
my light.
You know, I think that that's where a lot comes from.
Even more powerful.
Yeah, you're right.
To turn them to Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
Yeah.
Then to focus on our past.
That's really what it is.
That's really what it's all about for all of us.
All of this that we talk about, we can distill into, you know, a basic idea, which is our
relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
We should focus on Him more than focusing on our past.
We should focus on His rock bottom in the garden and on the cross more than we ever
focus on our rock bottoms.
Well, believe it or not, we're up against that time where it's time for us to conclude.
Do you have any final thoughts?
No, you'd like to share today.
Love you, Scott.
Grateful for our relationship.
Grateful to be able to share these things with others and for this, for the spirit
that we feel in discussing them before, during and after the podcast.
And I'm so grateful for my Savior and my Redeemer and for the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ
that teaches us how to strengthen our relationship with our Savior as well as our Heavenly Father
by receiving the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Our invitation is going to be this week for us all to do a self-assessment, see where
we are in regards to and relationship with the things that we've talked about today,
specifically, specifically about our relationship with Jesus Christ and how all of this directs
us to a more pure, more complete relationship with Him.
That's our wish and desire.
And really, nothing else.
Yeah, and to make an inventory of maybe something of our past and sins that maybe we need to
confess to Him, maybe to others that we have heard or to the church.
And then to make an inventory of what can I do to more fully restore to others and to
restore what was lost or is all of my sins.
And then especially to recognize what we can't restore and turn that over to the Lord Jesus
Christ with faith in Him and His Atonement that those things can and will be restored
according to our faith in Him.
Thanks for being with us, another podcast, another great spiritual experience to be here
with you, Dave.
I love you too.
And this relationship means so much to me.
It has since I was a little kid and it's just grown into an even deeper and greater
thing and I'm grateful for that.
We invite you to share this with your friends.
We invite you to take hold of the concepts and the precepts that you're being prompted
to through the Spirit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because as you fill those and
as you fill those promptings and honor those promptings, you will be more in the posture
of repentance.
You will be more.
We all will be more readily available to receive His Spirit in our lives.
And have greater joy in all that we do.
In the process.
Thanks for being with us.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
Until then, remember that you have been redeemed through His blood.
We love you.
Thank you.