1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,760 Well, hello everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,960 In this podcast, we discuss hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:17,960 Christ. 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:18,960 My name's Scott Durfey. 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,600 I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David Durfey. 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:24,600 Say hi, Dave. 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,600 Thank you, Scott. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,600 It's so good to be here this morning. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,400 We've got a great podcast in store, I think, today. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:33,400 Real treat. 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,800 I'll get to that in just a minute. 12 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,600 Before we do, I just want to thank everybody for your emails. 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,440 We've received a lot of great questions and some experiences. 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Wow, we've received a couple of wonderful experiences that have been shared with us, 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:54,520 experiences of hope, experiences of crying out, experiences of tying into the power of 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,120 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His Atonement in ways that have made monumental 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,440 changes and even some small important changes in life. 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,640 So we're grateful for those. 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,960 We'd encourage you to continue sending us your emails. 20 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:09,320 We appreciate them very much. 21 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:11,220 We appreciate your suggestions. 22 00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:12,460 We appreciate your questions. 23 00:01:12,460 --> 00:01:14,520 We try to weave them into the conversation. 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,880 And again, we will probably be taking some individual podcasts to deal with some of those questions 25 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,200 at a future date. 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,800 But in the meantime, if we could just ask you to keep sending those to us, we appreciate 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,800 it. 28 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,240 You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. 29 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,800 He redeemsusatgmail.com. 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,600 So we appreciate that very much. 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:42,880 We've had some great conversations, Dave, over the last several weeks about repentance, 32 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:44,520 what it's not, what it is. 33 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,400 We talked a little bit about confession. 34 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:53,440 We're going to continue in that vein on what repentance is in upcoming podcasts as well. 35 00:01:53,440 --> 00:02:01,320 But today we're going to take just a little diversion from that vein in its entirety. 36 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,280 We definitely, these things that we're going to be doing today fall in that vein and in 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:11,200 fact personify the things that we're going to be talking about in a great way. 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,400 I want to introduce somebody who's super important to me. 39 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,200 She's very important to David as well, but I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,480 have to not look at you, Dave. 41 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,440 I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me. 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,880 Dave's learned to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,720 of our family. 44 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,200 My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today. 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,320 Wonderful story. 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:43,320 Say hi, Deb. 47 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:44,320 Hello, everyone. 48 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,360 It's so good to have you here. 49 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,600 So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little introduction about Deb, kind of give a little 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,800 background on her and then we'll get right into some questions and let Deb talk about 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,640 her story and the importance of it and how it relates to being redeemed through the blood 52 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,160 of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways. 53 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:10,920 So Deb and I actually met in 1998 in Lehigh, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in 54 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:19,120 and kind of helped and was super instrumental in helping develop and bring about the addiction 55 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,040 recovery program from the church here in Utah County. 56 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:30,520 And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that are obvious to those who have 57 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:31,640 been listening for a while. 58 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:39,640 For those who aren't, I'm a recovering alcoholic with 23 years and 11 months and two weeks 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:40,640 of sobriety. 60 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,640 You're going to have to have a party next month. 61 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Yeah, October 26th. 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:44,640 That's right. 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:45,640 24 years. 64 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:46,640 24 years. 65 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:52,720 But Deb and I met just prior to, well, just after, two months after my getting sober roughly 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,680 and a few years later, we ended up married. 67 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,560 Deb and I have had an opportunity to share both of our stories in sacrament meetings 68 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:08,520 and firesides, countless firesides and fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's 69 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,760 camps, heli-men's camps and those kinds of things. 70 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,560 It's been a wonderful experience for both of us as we've kind of hand in hand walked 71 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:21,520 the journey of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our own lives separately and together as 72 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,440 we've worked hard to do a little Brady Bunch thing. 73 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,160 We have seven kids between us. 74 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:28,600 We love them all. 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,000 We don't differentiate in who's who's or any of those things. 76 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,080 They're all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren. 77 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,320 We love them, I think just as much as we love our kids and maybe some days even a little 78 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,720 bit more. 79 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,840 So one other thing, you know, this story that I think Deb's going to be sharing at least 80 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:55,000 parts of it today is a story that she has personally shared in high schools and junior 81 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:01,920 highs and recovery centers, especially those specifically for women all over the state 82 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:08,520 of Utah and for over 20 years now and in fact well over 20 years now. 83 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,880 And this story that we're going to be talking about, especially as it relates to how it ties 84 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:20,640 into the redemption being redeemed through his blood, the blood of course of Jesus Christ, 85 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,920 our Lord and Savior, his power through the atonement. 86 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:29,120 As we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to be great relevance in 87 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,920 all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of those that may be 88 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,560 finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations. 89 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,240 So let's just start off Deb. 90 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:46,040 Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about maybe kind of 91 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,880 lead us into where we where you want to go with what we talk about here and we'll just 92 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,160 go from there. 93 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:58,160 So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories. 94 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:06,160 So when you invited me to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was 95 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,840 actually going to share. 96 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:16,280 But I feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular story, which 97 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:24,320 was a huge part of my life in Give Me Who I Am and forming me the way that it was just 98 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:30,880 part of my journey of how I learned more about me and more about the atonement of Jesus Christ. 99 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,440 And something Deb that can bless the lives of so many others. 100 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:35,640 I'm sure you're thinking about that. 101 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:42,360 Yeah, I always tell people I'm a good example of what not to be. 102 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,360 Or how to become. 103 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:45,360 There you go. 104 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,360 There's hope. 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:47,360 What you shouldn't be. 106 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,360 Yeah. 107 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,360 Yeah. 108 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,440 Anyway, as I was reflecting on what story I would share, I thought about one of the 109 00:06:53,440 --> 00:07:00,920 first really big impactful experiences that happened in my life when I was between my junior 110 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,320 and senior year in high school. 111 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:09,200 And I was dating a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of youth pamphlet back 112 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,720 in the olden days. 113 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:16,520 And we just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down with a guy, don't stay out 114 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:17,940 past midnight. 115 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:25,520 And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay virtuous and to be worthy. 116 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,880 Those were the vague rules that I heard. 117 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:34,320 I'm sure there probably were many others that were getting more explicit, more explanation 118 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,120 than I was, but those are the ones that I basically remember. 119 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:48,160 And so when I was in the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an obedient youth 120 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:55,200 and I had an experience where I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with a 121 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:01,640 group of people and I did the unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie. 122 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:02,640 So you broke two rules. 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,600 I broke both rules all in the same night. 124 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:13,480 Layed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched a movie with, with a guy. 125 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Long story short, I found myself being violated. 126 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,080 And it wasn't that night. 127 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,200 It was the, you know, the very next day during broad daylight. 128 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:30,160 I was, I was raped and it was very traumatic to me. 129 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,640 It was scary. 130 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,920 I was horrified. 131 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,520 I was devastated. 132 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:46,200 I fought with every strength in my body to stop what was going on and was not successful. 133 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:55,920 And I felt completely broken and so devastated. 134 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:01,440 When I left, I went, I was returning a video, if you guys remember back in the day of blockbuster 135 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,560 when you're returning videos. 136 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:09,040 And I remember going home and my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl up in 137 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,560 a ball and literally just go to sleep and not wake up. 138 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:19,160 I was so broken and so devastated for what had happened to me. 139 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,040 But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two rules that I was always 140 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,400 told not to break. 141 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,760 I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I didn't. 142 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,360 And so that now I understood why you don't do those things. 143 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:41,640 So feeling more than a victim, you felt that you had brought it on yourself and that you 144 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:42,640 deserved it. 145 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:43,640 I did. 146 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:44,640 I did. 147 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:45,640 I broke those rules. 148 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,140 And so I felt like I deserved that. 149 00:09:47,140 --> 00:09:52,640 I knew better than, than that because I had been told that over and over and over and 150 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,600 I broke those two rules that were always told to me. 151 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,520 Can I ask a question real quick? 152 00:09:58,520 --> 00:09:59,520 Yeah. 153 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:00,840 And I don't want you to lose your train of thought. 154 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,920 I don't want you were going to say, but can you kind of give us an overview of what your 155 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:09,120 relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus was like at that point? 156 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,920 So I was raised just like Nephi with goodly parents and we went to church every week and 157 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,680 I, I loved primary. 158 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:22,320 I loved all of the, you know, weekly church activities. 159 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,840 We participated. 160 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,840 We had family night every Monday night. 161 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,440 We had family prayer every morning. 162 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,600 I mean, I was, I was raised in a very strong, great home. 163 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:41,080 However, I did have my own interpretation of what God was. 164 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,200 Jesus was his helper in my, in my young mind. 165 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,600 He was there to help Heavenly Father. 166 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,560 And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that there was 167 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:59,600 a loving Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the 168 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,080 wrong choices. 169 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,280 And I, I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching 170 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:07,280 all the good and the bad. 171 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,440 And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of those black marks 172 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,200 that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the waters 173 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,360 of baptism. 174 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,480 They're all, all those black marks are going to go away. 175 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,000 And I remember thinking, I can't, yeah, it was the eraser. 176 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,800 And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong ever again. 177 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,120 Don't don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad 178 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,280 deed, whatever. 179 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,280 I just, I just remember my slate is clean. 180 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:47,840 And of course I, I knew shortly after I turned eight and into eight years and one day after 181 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:53,920 being baptized that there were some black marks already going up there. 182 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:01,960 And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God as I understood him is kind of 183 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,280 like the cop. 184 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,920 And I remember even sometimes being outside in the summer rain with the lightning and 185 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:08,920 stuff. 186 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,840 And I'm like, oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody right now because I can hear 187 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,840 some thunder. 188 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,840 But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to me. 189 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,400 I just thought, and then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers and I remember 190 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,920 them saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying because he's, you know, 191 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,040 I'm like, oh, maybe he's crying because he's upset with all black marks they have. 192 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:36,680 I mean, it's funny what we kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means 193 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:37,680 what. 194 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:43,600 How do you, how do you think that, that view that you had of heavenly father at that point, 195 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,240 how do you think that affected your reaction to all of these things that had just happened 196 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,240 to you? 197 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Oh, I knew he was so mad at me. 198 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,520 I knew he was absolutely disappointed. 199 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,760 I knew that I had broke every rule that I had ever been told and I just knew he was 200 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,520 in pure utter disappointment with me. 201 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:07,680 So what I hear you describing Deb, is you say the commandments were clearly taught in 202 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:08,680 your home. 203 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:09,780 Yes. 204 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:17,320 But it wasn't so much, it was a gospel of commandments, do's and don'ts, and not so 205 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,040 much a gospel of relationships. 206 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,720 Sounds like really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what the Atonement of Jesus 207 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,360 Christ really was about. 208 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:36,160 What redemption was, what salvation was, how can we draw closer to them? 209 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:44,040 What's their character, attributes and perfections, which is the requirements to really exercise 210 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,160 faith in him? 211 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,720 Those things were kind of missing in your gospel youth upbringing. 212 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Absolutely. 213 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,400 Everything was black and white. 214 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,600 It was all about the do's and the don'ts. 215 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:01,520 And I, it wasn't because it probably wasn't taught, but I sure didn't hear it or feel 216 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,520 it. 217 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,840 Whether it was me not listening, whether it was just the misunderstanding and I was telling 218 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,480 my own story and my own head of what this all looked like. 219 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:20,720 And the things that were spoken to me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and understood 220 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:27,920 it the best way I knew how, far as understanding God and his Son Jesus Christ. 221 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,240 And really I did not, I can tell you right now in the stage of my life, I truly did not 222 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,080 understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 223 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,960 I had no clue Christ. 224 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,800 There's no way I understood that at that time. 225 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,800 Yeah. 226 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:42,800 Okay. 227 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,160 So you're, you're raped. 228 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,160 How old were you? 229 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,920 It was the summer I turned 17. 230 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,280 Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments. 231 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,480 How did that, how did that go? 232 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,960 Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone. 233 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,280 I could not tell a single solitary soul. 234 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,320 I had brought this onto myself because of choices I had made. 235 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,320 And so there was, it was something that no one was going to know, even though deep down 236 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,200 inside it ate at me. 237 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:17,560 And I had this secret that was just utterly painful. 238 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,960 And I, I kept telling myself over and over, you're ruined. 239 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,720 You're damaged. 240 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,240 You're, you're not virtuous anymore. 241 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,240 You're not clean. 242 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,240 You're not pure. 243 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,280 You're not worthy. 244 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:33,280 So all of these stories. 245 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,960 And then as I would go to church and, and go into the young women, you know, organization 246 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,000 and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay virtuous and clean. 247 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,920 And I just knew all is lost. 248 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,640 I really knew all was lost. 249 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,320 There was no hope for me because it was, it was already broken. 250 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:57,840 How long after you were, did the, did the, your pregnancy was that the results? 251 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:07,520 So I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I, I couldn't resolve 252 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,120 it within my own head, within my own heart. 253 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,640 I couldn't resolve it. 254 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,520 And so, you know, of course I would get on my knees and say, you know, Heavenly Father, 255 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,400 this is really uncomfortable for me and I don't like it. 256 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Can you please remove it? 257 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:27,600 And of course it didn't, because I didn't really understand exactly how to resolve it. 258 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:35,200 And so I think within, oh, I would say within a few months, I kind of threw my hands in 259 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:42,960 the air and gave up in the fact that I had a friend that introduced me to alcohol. 260 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,160 And when I realized that alcohol made me feel different and I didn't feel guilt and shame 261 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:55,760 and I didn't feel that story of not good enough, that helped numb out that story I was telling 262 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:04,160 myself and also the pain that went with that guilt and shame that was so alive in me. 263 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:11,400 And so then when I started drinking, then I'm, you know, reconnecting and, and having, 264 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,760 getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed. 265 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:27,040 I mean, it kind of spiraled down until then I find myself pregnant. 266 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,200 So it wasn't a one time thing, it was a choice. 267 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,760 After that it was a choice of, yeah, I like this. 268 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,920 I'm going to go do it this way. 269 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,480 And you had at that point not talked to anybody about this. 270 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:39,480 Oh no, never. 271 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:40,480 No. 272 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,440 You're hiding all of that, the drinking and everything and your parents and you hadn't 273 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:45,640 talked to the bishop or. 274 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,680 Oh no, no, I didn't talk to anybody about it. 275 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,320 The only one that knew was my friend and, and at the time my boyfriend. 276 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:55,320 Okay. 277 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:56,320 So I'm. 278 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,920 So what, so what, so what happened after that? 279 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,720 You say you got pregnant. 280 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Once that happened, I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that? 281 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,040 I, I just remember I had to go over to the hospital to get a blood test. 282 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,240 I don't remember if they even had home tests that at that time, but I just remember going 283 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,520 over to the hospital and getting a blood test. 284 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:24,520 And then I had to get on my landline and call after four o'clock to find out the results. 285 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,560 And I remember when I called the hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other end said, 286 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,080 results are positive. 287 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:32,880 Like in such a happy way. 288 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:41,920 And I like in pure devastation hung up that phone and almost went back in the fetal position. 289 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:48,360 And I remember calling my friend and I said, I have no idea what to do. 290 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:56,040 I, I just got a positive test on, on my pregnancy and I, I got to tell my mom, I got to tell 291 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,000 my dad, this is something you don't hide. 292 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,200 This is something that you can't keep a secret. 293 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,080 Now it's, now it's going to be exposed. 294 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:12,080 And so I took some time and, and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him, sat them both 295 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,440 down and told them. 296 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:19,120 And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through this. 297 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:23,400 And I remember, you know, just feeling okay. 298 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,840 I know I devastated them. 299 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,040 I know they were just like jaw dropped and like, what are we going to do? 300 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,600 I remember the visualization. 301 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:37,600 And I remember feeling like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder, I just remember thinking, 302 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,720 how am I ever going to get out of this? 303 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,680 How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again? 304 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,440 How am I going to find like any kind of joy or happiness? 305 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,160 This is utter devastation and despair. 306 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,640 And I remember looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy. 307 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,720 I just want to fill your joy and happiness again. 308 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:06,960 And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and 309 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:14,920 helpless and broken with, with no tools to get out of this, this hole. 310 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:15,920 Damaged goods. 311 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,800 Oh, so damaged, so damaged goods. 312 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,720 Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at this point for 313 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:25,720 you? 314 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,280 I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders? 315 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,800 Did you? 316 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,840 So of course, I know that I know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when, when these 317 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:35,840 kinds of things happen. 318 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,720 And at this time I'm a senior in high school and I'm attending seminary. 319 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,160 I'm in my fourth year of seminary. 320 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,120 I was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time. 321 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,400 I'm very active in church still. 322 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:49,760 Your dad had been a bishop. 323 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,760 Yeah. 324 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:56,800 When I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something, but now I'm, I'm 17. 325 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:02,120 Of course I make an appointment with a bishop and at that point in my life and I'm, I'm 326 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:08,000 learning this as I'm older now listening to the, to what repentance is and what repentance 327 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,000 isn't. 328 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,440 Well, as, as a matter of fact, uh, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness, 329 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,160 uh, Institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students. 330 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,240 And you're very impactful there. 331 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:22,240 So yeah. 332 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,240 Yeah. 333 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,240 Yeah. 334 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,240 Yeah. 335 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,240 It's a different perspective today. 336 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,760 I'm in the circle of forgiveness and, and now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has 337 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:39,200 definitely, yes, has definitely changed my interpretation and understanding more fully 338 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,460 thank goodness and more holy. 339 00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:43,960 So you went to the bishop. 340 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:49,680 So I made an appointment, go into the bishop and I, I basically say so I've been involved 341 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,480 in some things that I'm not really happy about and I'm pregnant. 342 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,080 And at this time I'm sure I can clearly tell you my bishop was absolute shocked because 343 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,280 his, the look on his face and then he dropped his head into his, both of his hands and just 344 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:06,280 kept shaking his head. 345 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:07,280 No. 346 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,280 And just in absolute utter like, Oh my gosh. 347 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,960 And he just kept saying, Oh Deb, Oh my gosh. 348 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,080 I can't believe this. 349 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,080 I can't believe this. 350 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,080 And he kept shaking his head. 351 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,080 No. 352 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,440 And I just sat there watching him with like eyes of like, Oh, can I just read this? 353 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:24,880 Run out of this room right now? 354 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,400 Can I just like exit? 355 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,080 Like cause I don't want to be here and watch this cause I already feel like that. 356 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,800 I already felt like he was feeling and I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head 357 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,600 and no, I can't believe this either. 358 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,940 I don't, it's not the ideal. 359 00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:42,120 This was not my goal. 360 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:49,280 And so long story short, I left and I remember my parents asking me, so how did it go with 361 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,280 the bishop? 362 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,000 And so let me back up for just a second because I think it's important to know at that time 363 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:02,320 in my life, I really, it was really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is 364 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,840 the mouthpiece for the savior. 365 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:10,160 This is like, you're going to confess and you're going to go tell a priesthood authority 366 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,560 what you have done. 367 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:18,080 And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, okay, this is how the savior feels about me. 368 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,320 This is how he, he's, he's disgusted. 369 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:22,600 He is devastated. 370 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,640 He is like shocked. 371 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,260 He just cannot believe that I have, I have got myself in this situation. 372 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:36,840 And so then again, the story enhances and then I believe that this is exactly how the 373 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,200 savior feels about me and, and where we're going. 374 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,600 But you know, it's like, yep, I've disappointed him. 375 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,840 Yep, I am ruined. 376 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:45,840 Yep. 377 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,760 I'm in a big, bad choice and here I am. 378 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,440 And so anyway, when I get home and I'm, my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the 379 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,440 bishop? 380 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,440 And I said, honestly, I feel worse. 381 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040 I don't feel forgiven because that was my checklist. 382 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,000 I was, if I went in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better. 383 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,400 That was, that was the rule of the repentance process in my little brain. 384 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,720 And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and, and confessed to him and I 385 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,880 came home feeling worse, I was like, okay, that was a big fat fail. 386 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,720 That did not work. 387 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,680 You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, okay, now we were going to go find 388 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,040 a support group. 389 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:33,800 And at that time, um, LDS social services had a support group for single girls, women 390 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,360 that were pregnant out of wedlock and they would have a counseling group and they would 391 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,280 go at four o'clock on Tuesdays or something. 392 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,400 And we would all sit around at a table and talk about what we were going to do. 393 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,000 Um, some, and some of these girls were further along. 394 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,600 Some of these girls had already had babies. 395 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,040 Some of them placed them for adoption. 396 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,040 Some of them kept them. 397 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,720 They just basically shared their story of this is why I chose this. 398 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,600 This is why I chose that. 399 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:07,440 And as an observer and as a terrified little girl, um, in this situation, I got to see, 400 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,160 um, things that were happening in their lives. 401 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,040 So, um, and how they handled the, a similar situation. 402 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,920 So I started going to that support group. 403 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,040 Um, I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant. 404 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,120 It was a big fat secret secret. 405 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,480 And I just wore big hoodies. 406 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:28,480 Nobody knew. 407 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,960 I didn't say anything to anybody. 408 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:35,680 There were speculations, of course, rumors get out and I grew up in a really small town. 409 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:43,160 And when I graduated from high school, I immediately moved up and to West Jordan, um, with my 410 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,360 brother and sister-in-law, they graciously opened a room to me and, and welcomed me. 411 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,600 You did that on your own or were you encouraged to do that? 412 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:57,600 Um, I was encouraged to, yeah, get out of town until I decided what I was going to do 413 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,400 with this pregnancy. 414 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:08,120 So somewhat did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned? 415 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:09,120 For sure. 416 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,560 Uh, yeah, I, I just had to, you know, get out of the small town cause we didn't want 417 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:19,840 to ruin reputations and ruin, you know, what was supposed to look, what it was supposed 418 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:20,840 to look like. 419 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:21,840 So you were sent away. 420 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Uh, yeah. 421 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,960 I, I, I did get a job up in Salt Lake. 422 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,800 Um, I did, I, I do need to back up a little bit because after I had talked to the Bishop 423 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,400 within a week or two, I was at church and, and I still attended church. 424 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,400 I didn't stop going to church. 425 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:47,200 He called me in his office and he very humbly said, Deb, I owe you an apology. 426 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,160 I just want you to know how sorry I am for the way I handled that situation. 427 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,440 And I, I want you to know that I'm, I'm human and I make mistakes and that was a really 428 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,640 big mistake and I hope you can forgive me. 429 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:08,240 That was a tender, tender, pivotal time in my life to be able to feel his sincere repentance 430 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,240 and sorrow for the way that he handled that situation. 431 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,840 Um, long story short, he, you know, as I was working through that, they, I was able to 432 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,720 graduate four years of seminary. 433 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,360 I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking, but was able to graduate 434 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,360 four years of seminary and then graduate from high school. 435 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,840 And then I moved up to, to Salt Lake. 436 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,760 The Bishop up there and the whole ward was great. 437 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,160 I'm 17 years old and, and now it's quite obvious that I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling 438 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:48,520 and I was so excited to have a calling and they asked me to be the ward chorister. 439 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,360 And the first week that I, that I led this singing was the fourth of July. 440 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:54,840 So I made everybody stand up. 441 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,520 I was so nervous, but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward. 442 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,400 Deb's very musical. 443 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:10,600 I will always cherish the hymn she sang, sang for our group at Adam on the almond. 444 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:16,320 And anyway, you've been very blessed and gifted Deborah with musical talent. 445 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,320 Oh, that's sweet. 446 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,320 Thank you. 447 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,320 That makes total sense. 448 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,000 You'd be leading music when you were 18 years old. 449 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,240 I know your parents were as well, but anyway, we came by it honestly. 450 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,240 Yeah. 451 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,640 So at this point you're going to church. 452 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280 You feel like you're kind of getting back on track. 453 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,400 You feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things to work through 454 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,840 and things that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts. 455 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,360 You're going to the, you're going to church, you're participating in the thing that you 456 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,360 love. 457 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,360 And Dave's right. 458 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:56,000 Deb is very musical and music is an extremely important part of her life. 459 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,480 And so that was really kind of a tender mercy, wasn't it? 460 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,720 That you were invited to be there. 461 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,760 Deb has two favorite callings in the church. 462 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,400 One of them is to be the ward chorister and the other ones to be in young women's and 463 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,960 she's phenomenal at both. 464 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,880 But so that's going on. 465 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,520 And then there is something else happened. 466 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:23,040 So I kept going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption. 467 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,240 Worked really closely with the therapist. 468 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,240 Caseworker maybe? 469 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Caseworker there. 470 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,080 That I worked closely with her and said, okay, this is, this is my choice. 471 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,200 This is what I'm going to do. 472 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,520 So you had decided to place the baby for adoption. 473 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,520 Yeah. 474 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,520 And I was back and forth. 475 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480 I, you know, there were days that I was like, I don't know if I can do this. 476 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:55,000 This is really difficult because all I ever wanted to be in my whole life was a mom and 477 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:11,840 to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom or that wanted another 478 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,680 baby in their life. 479 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,320 It was a really, really hard decision. 480 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,920 And you talk about crying out in previous episodes. 481 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:28,520 I definitely had those moments of crying out and I pleaded with the Lord to please lead 482 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:37,280 me and guide me, help me know where this innocent, pure child is supposed to be. 483 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,680 And I knew I could love the baby. 484 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,960 I knew I could. 485 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:46,680 But because I chose not to marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life, 486 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,960 I was like, this child deserves a dad, a good dad. 487 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:57,560 And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was given this child exactly what I was 488 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,600 graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me. 489 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:08,320 And so as I journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those 490 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:15,920 nine months, I felt like I was led the way that they did it then was they would say, 491 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,960 okay, we have family ABCDE. 492 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,400 And here are the characteristics. 493 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,240 This was completely closed adoption. 494 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,000 And they said, this is the color of their hair. 495 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,040 This is their things they like. 496 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:34,680 Take these names and these people and pray about it. 497 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,840 And I did. 498 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,240 I did not take that lightly. 499 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,800 I knew this was a huge, this was impacting in eternities. 500 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,040 And I knew that I needed to be a part of that. 501 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:52,280 I needed to listen to the spirit because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to 502 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,160 be, but I knew God knew that's a pretty heavy task for a 17 year old. 503 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,200 Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age. 504 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,760 Yeah, but you did it. 505 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:02,960 Obviously have great faith. 506 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,920 Yeah, I did do it. 507 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:15,960 And when I, when I chose the first family and the family and the group that the social 508 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,640 services, they have a committee that they pray together. 509 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,960 They, they say, we're going to take and pray about it too. 510 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,400 We all felt good about this first, like family A or something. 511 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,520 And they approached the bishop and the bishop said, you know, I don't know what's going 512 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:31,520 on with the family. 513 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,520 They're not as active. 514 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:33,520 They're not paying tithing. 515 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,600 They don't know that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family. 516 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,120 That was impactful in my life right there. 517 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:47,000 And then for the simple fact is what, what blessings am I foregoing because of choices 518 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,200 I'm making in my life? 519 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,200 I will never forget that. 520 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:56,520 And so we went back to family ABCDE and took out family A or whatever family that was. 521 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,560 We prayed about it again to find the next family that was ready for this, this infant. 522 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:11,880 That has been a really big part of remembering at again at a very young age to, to remember 523 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,720 that blessings are predicated on, on our obedience. 524 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,120 And that was a really huge lesson for me to learn. 525 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Well, so, so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much everything 526 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:34,000 and you're obviously really focused on commandments then and that is an amazing lesson, right? 527 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,680 The blessings are predicated upon our obedience, right? 528 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Amen. 529 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:46,520 But at this point in your life being so focused on that while not understanding the Atonement 530 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,720 of Jesus Christ, is that fair to say? 531 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,560 Yeah, 100% fair. 532 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,280 So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 533 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,840 You're praying to God, you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the Spirit 534 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:04,800 of the Lord in spite of your, your challenges and your past and all of that. 535 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:11,040 But there's, is it fair to say that there's no repentance taking place basically? 536 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:17,960 In my, at that time, I thought this was repentance in that innocence or that ignorance, whatever 537 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,120 you want to call it. 538 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,680 I felt like, oh, yeah, okay, this is the repentance process because I went and talked to the bishop 539 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,160 and now I'm getting answers from Heavenly Father of what to do and how to move forward 540 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,240 with this mistake, with this sin. 541 00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:39,600 But as far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was, did, definitely 542 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,600 did not feel like as white as snow. 543 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,080 Well, I, I want to correct myself. 544 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:50,440 I'm sure there was some repenting taking place, but crying out, right, that's part of repentance, 545 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,920 having a relationship with our Heavenly Father, feeling the Spirit, seeing the Bishop, all 546 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,000 of that's, all of that's really good stuff. 547 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,440 All that's positive. 548 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:08,320 But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, His atoning sacrifice was at that time not really, 549 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,200 I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then. 550 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:18,640 Well, no, and as I finish my story, you're going to see, I mean, it'll, it'll really 551 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,000 play out. 552 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:27,240 So long story short, I have this baby and she was feet first. 553 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:33,040 So I knew before the baby was born that she would need to be a C-section and I asked my 554 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,760 doctor if they could put me completely out. 555 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,760 I don't want that, that bonding moment. 556 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:44,200 My family was so supportive, my mom was there and my sister and sisters and I just had a 557 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,480 lot of support as far as that goes. 558 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,760 And so they put me out, give me a C-section, I wake up and there's this baby. 559 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,920 And because I had her C-section, she stayed in the hospital with me and I, I got to spend 560 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:13,640 five special days with her that I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion. 561 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,040 And there were bets in the hospital that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't 562 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,040 mine. 563 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,040 I knew she wasn't. 564 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,240 I was just a tool to get her here. 565 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:30,680 So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family. 566 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,400 And of course, the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy and I can only 567 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:40,960 imagine because I've been able in years now to see the joy that, you know, people that 568 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:49,400 have adopted have been able to experience and especially in a blended family, I feel 569 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,720 like I put one out into the universe and got four in return. 570 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:58,760 I got four bonus kids when I married Scott and I just feel like it's God's way of saying, 571 00:36:58,760 --> 00:36:59,760 thank you, Deb. 572 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:06,480 And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely close relationship 573 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,480 that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family. 574 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,720 Yeah, it's pretty tender. 575 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:17,080 And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a family. 576 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,280 After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done, I've done the hardest thing in my life. 577 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,680 I can get on with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married 578 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,000 in the temple and live happily ever after. 579 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,400 I moved out with some roommates, so I'm no longer living with my brother. 580 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,160 I have a job up in Salt Lake. 581 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,720 I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she was taking 582 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:46,280 me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating and 583 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:54,240 within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest 584 00:37:54,240 --> 00:38:02,040 and before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again. 585 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,640 And I remember thinking, I thought I learned my lesson. 586 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:13,960 This is so, and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told this person that I had 587 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:21,640 had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was, ugh, you 588 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,520 know, kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you. 589 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,760 So again, there was more rejection and more validation that I'm not clean. 590 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:30,760 I'm not pure. 591 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:31,960 I'm not forgiven. 592 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,200 I'm not, you know, virtuous. 593 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:41,240 I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get because of the story that I kept 594 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:42,240 telling myself. 595 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,720 And I think that was probably the biggest thing that I've learned through all of this 596 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:52,800 is even though I felt like I had made a wrong right, I had not really used the Atonement 597 00:38:52,800 --> 00:39:02,920 of Jesus Christ to allow it to cleanse or to purify the belief or the lies or to enable 598 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:10,880 you to enable you and strengthen you to make the changes that you needed to make and to 599 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,320 be changed through his atoning sacrifice. 600 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,920 So now I'm right in the exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in 601 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,600 place for adoption, I'm pregnant again. 602 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:32,000 And so when they talk about repeating the same sin over and over, I now have pictures 603 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:39,000 to go with those words and I'm not telling my mom because the dad and dad, the devastation 604 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,960 and all my older brothers and sisters had all been married in the temple and serve missions. 605 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:49,720 And so now I have this dirty little secret that we kind of hid. 606 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,840 And now it's like, okay, now what do I do? 607 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,760 Because I'm definitely not going through that again. 608 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600 That was excruciating like so hard. 609 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,520 And so I just, we decided to get married. 610 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,440 We have this wedding that's not in the temple, not in the, you know, and I'm, I'm getting 611 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,640 comments from family members that come through the wedding line is, you know, this is not 612 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,800 what the graves do. 613 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,320 This is not what we do. 614 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,160 Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt already. 615 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:27,080 So just knowing all of the shame and I shun and disappointment and what am I doing to 616 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,600 this, this family name? 617 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,400 What am I doing to my life? 618 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,560 I'm destroying my own life. 619 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:44,080 And I honestly feel like now as I look back, I really felt like because I was so broken 620 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:52,320 and so damaged and so used and abused, not only now not being a virgin, but not, I mean, 621 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:58,160 I'll have scars and stretch marks and I'm, I'm pretty much damaged goods who is going 622 00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,720 to want this. 623 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:04,600 So I, I think the story that kept going on in my mind was there's no way of cleaning 624 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:05,880 this up. 625 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:12,840 And I did not really believe that that's what the atonement was for was to clean that mess 626 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,720 up, to make that wrong right. 627 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:21,400 Because then I added an alcohol on top of it, which was another rule that you do not 628 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,920 dream, you know, stay virtuous, no fornication, no, all of this. 629 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,280 And now it's just like I just jumped deeper into a pit. 630 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:38,080 So I think that was the piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand. 631 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,040 I really do not understand the atonement. 632 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:48,840 I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and over and over and even understanding. 633 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,640 So you were how old when you were married? 634 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,640 Deborah? 635 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:52,640 I had just turned 19. 636 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,880 Now you're married and you have the baby. 637 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,400 And, and so all of this stuff is heaped up. 638 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680 Yeah, it's piled on top of piles. 639 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:13,720 And you're trying to start a marriage and, and just in a few seconds, how did that go? 640 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:20,960 So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was probably my motto for, for, you know, 641 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,960 suffer. 642 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:22,960 Oh, definitely suffer. 643 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,960 Just I'm going to suffer. 644 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:24,960 Yeah. 645 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,320 Yes. 646 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:32,200 And one of the blessings that came from that marriage was within a year of being married 647 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:40,000 a little over a year, we were able to take Jessica to be filled to her in the temple. 648 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:46,360 And I received my endowments and I remember really when I entered the temple feeling, 649 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,480 I remember having a pomegranate. 650 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,680 I just remember literally feeling like everything's better now. 651 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,840 Everything is going to work. 652 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,320 Everything's going to be okay. 653 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,000 It was like, this was my destination place. 654 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,520 This is where I needed to get to. 655 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,440 And now I'm finally here. 656 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:11,760 And I really hung on to the temple like clung, like almost like, you know, snowstorm when 657 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,080 you're just squeezing that steering wheel. 658 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:20,440 I really feel like that's when I really was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight 659 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,160 because there were a lot of things that had happened that had gone on in that marriage. 660 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:29,840 I had, I have three amazing children from that marriage, but there were a lot of challenges 661 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,600 in that marriage that were very, very hard. 662 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,080 Commandments and now ordinances. 663 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,080 Yep. 664 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:44,720 You're really clinging to ordinances and your faith is no doubt really strong in your heavenly 665 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:50,520 father and in, in keeping the commandments and walking the covenant path, what's your 666 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,400 relationship with the savior at that point? 667 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,120 I think with the challenges that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of 668 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,720 the punishment for living the life I have lived. 669 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:09,200 And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and now I have the tools to pray and stay 670 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,200 active. 671 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:16,320 And I, I, I remember at that time in my life, I kept thinking, maybe if literally I thought 672 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:22,400 this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing or maybe 673 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:29,480 if I go three times a week to the temple instead of just once, I, I remember like literally 674 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,840 swinging, swinging that pendulum completely the other way. 675 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,680 Great example of trying to save yourself. 676 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:36,680 That's a great example. 677 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,040 And I mean, we've all, I think we all, we all do that. 678 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:45,880 But at some point or have that we, we try to, to save ourselves. 679 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,880 Oh yeah. 680 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,120 It was a white knuckle experience. 681 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:55,480 We not only, we not only believe that we suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering 682 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:02,480 or punishment as consequences of our sin, but you and I've experienced this as well. 683 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,920 You think you actually have to suffer for your sins. 684 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:07,920 Yeah. 685 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:08,920 For sure. 686 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:09,920 Right. 687 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,120 You're not only suffering because of them. 688 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,680 You're suffering for them. 689 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,680 Oh yeah. 690 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,680 You're trying to pay back. 691 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:16,680 Oh yeah. 692 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:17,680 Oh yeah. 693 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,640 I literally, it was like, I, I wore that victim card loud and proud. 694 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,080 I was such a victim. 695 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:28,800 It's funny to say now, but yeah, it was, it was very interesting. 696 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,840 So we, we don't have a lot of time left. 697 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,520 We're winding up. 698 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,480 How did that marriage end? 699 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,840 And then how did it go after that and Deborah, at what point in your life do you feel like 700 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:49,280 you finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ and when did you feel like 701 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:56,200 through his merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and 702 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:02,720 saved and you experienced the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 703 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:08,200 Well, at the end of the marriage, I, I just feel like we grew apart. 704 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,200 I mean, he, I did not, I would, I didn't, I was not the person he married. 705 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,400 I changed and I changed a lot. 706 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:24,360 And so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just, it was better that he go 707 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,720 his way and I go my way. 708 00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:28,760 He's married to a wonderful woman too. 709 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:29,760 Yes. 710 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:30,760 He has a good life. 711 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,680 I love her and I'm so grateful for her. 712 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,720 She's great to my kids and my grandkids. 713 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:36,440 I'm, I, yes. 714 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:45,840 As I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and 715 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:52,440 stuff and he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together. 716 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:59,920 It wasn't until after I had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped 717 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:08,440 and lost my recommend and was unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what 718 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,640 the Atonement of Jesus Christ was because of the void. 719 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,680 It wasn't there. 720 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,960 And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel. 721 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,360 I was clinging to the temple. 722 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:27,720 And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual time out and I wouldn't 723 00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,800 even say spiritual, but maybe a physical time out to just kind of spiritually reconnect 724 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:40,440 and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine because 725 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:46,800 I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality. 726 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,880 I didn't understand it the way that I do now. 727 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:58,360 And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and this devastating, you 728 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:04,720 know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact is there 729 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:11,200 were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of, of turmoil, a lot of years of self 730 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:20,560 doubt and self, a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards 731 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:21,960 the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 732 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,240 I did not have to carry that for decades. 733 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:26,800 I did not have to carry that victim. 734 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,240 I did not have to carry that any, any piece of that. 735 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:35,040 And I think that's the part that it's like, I just want to, I just want to stand on the 736 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,120 top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you make the same mistake over and over 737 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:46,840 and over again, there is hope and it is only through the Savior of Jesus Christ and his 738 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,560 blood. 739 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,840 And I know that today. 740 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,200 I know that I'm still not done messing up. 741 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,560 I know that and I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form, but I'm grateful 742 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:04,600 that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit and that I can 743 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,280 cry unto him. 744 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,960 You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you have a cry out moment? 745 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:21,720 I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily that I just plead, plead with him, just 746 00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:25,560 help my will and thy will be one. 747 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,680 Please help me commune with thee. 748 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:35,040 That is my wish and desire and I definitely don't do it perfect or right, but every day 749 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:42,360 there's effort and I'm just grateful today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves 750 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:52,040 me and I know that the Savior is very well aware of my journey and he did drip drops 751 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,640 of blood for me. 752 00:49:53,640 --> 00:50:02,400 He hung on that cross for me and he was resurrected for me and for that I have hope, a lot of 753 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,520 hope and a lot of joy. 754 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,520 And knowing that makes all the difference. 755 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:13,920 I'll just say something here quickly and then Scott and Deborah, you can finish it. 756 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,360 Part of what I've experienced today is, and I may have shared this before in episode, 757 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:24,440 but I think this is so important for parents to get this lesson as they've listened to 758 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:30,760 Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in their lives and their families. 759 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,000 I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training center and Boyd K. Packer, President 760 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:41,480 Packer was teaching and he told the missionaries there, we're not going to judge you by your 761 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,920 number of baptisms, we're going to judge you by what kind of parents and grandparents 762 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,600 you become. 763 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,720 And on that note he said, I have some counsel for you, that you now live in a world that 764 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:54,280 is more wicked than it is righteous. 765 00:50:54,280 --> 00:51:02,400 And if you don't do a better job teaching your children the atonement of Jesus Christ, 766 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:08,560 then you do teaching the commandments to your children, you're going to lose your children 767 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,080 because they're not going to keep all the commandments. 768 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,760 That's where we're at. 769 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:21,840 And your example of that Deborah is I think amazing how you have come back from so much 770 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:28,000 in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now, which I've always 771 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:33,240 been inspired by you and since I've known you since you married Scott, how grateful 772 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:42,680 I am for you, your example and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice in 773 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:43,680 your life. 774 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,520 So thank you so much for sharing that with us. 775 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,520 Thank you. 776 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:55,360 Well, so I've heard this story literally hundreds of times and I'm never left without 777 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,520 impact every time I do. 778 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:02,480 I appreciate your honesty, I appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with 779 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,720 maybe a hard thing to sometimes put out there. 780 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:08,520 And I know a lot of people would find it extremely difficult to talk about these things. 781 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:14,480 And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too just because I watch you do that. 782 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:21,680 And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage, your strength in doing so because 783 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,520 you know, we've had last night we were sitting out on our deck in preparation for the things 784 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,880 that we were going to talk about. 785 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,080 And I asked you, why, why do you do this? 786 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,080 And you know, your answer is the same as my answer when I'm asked that question about, 787 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,280 you know, when I share my story and stuff too. 788 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:44,280 And your answer was if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or strength 789 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:50,280 or even just an inkling, a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're 790 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,680 not in the exact same situation, but may be filling those feelings of distance from our 791 00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:01,120 Heavenly Father because of choices that we make or filling that separation of the spirit, 792 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:06,920 whether it be real or imagined, because of the way that we have been raised in a culture 793 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,440 where we talk about commandments and those things are important. 794 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:16,280 And sometimes we could do a better job in talking about our relationship with our Lord 795 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:17,440 and Savior Jesus Christ. 796 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,440 I've watched you. 797 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,040 I know your relationship with him. 798 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:27,880 Deb and I, when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and 799 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,040 just being there and feeling our Heavenly Father spirit. 800 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,760 We have an important relationship, Deb and I do, Dave. 801 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,960 And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly Father for being 802 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,760 the most important person in our relationship. 803 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:42,760 He's first. 804 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,120 He's first to Deborah and he's first to me. 805 00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:51,720 And because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward to an eternity 806 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:52,720 with. 807 00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:55,720 Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart? 808 00:53:55,720 --> 00:54:02,600 No, I just, I just appreciate being able to share my story. 809 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:11,720 And again, just pray that it can touch one person to at least look at the possibility 810 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:15,400 to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives. 811 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,520 Because it is such, it's been such a huge impactful thing in my life. 812 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,240 And I'm just so grateful. 813 00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:25,200 I just have one more thought. 814 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:30,960 You mentioned after you were married, your first marriage and going to the temple and 815 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,320 you were just going to endure to the end. 816 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,160 That's how you kind of saw it, right? 817 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:36,160 Yep. 818 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,640 And you were clinging. 819 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,440 You said you used that word clinging to that. 820 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,880 How do you see enduring to the end differently now? 821 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,080 Then you did then. 822 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:58,440 Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think the clinging is more in a triad with Heavenly 823 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:05,880 Father and having a companion that wants what I want and has the same goals, has the same, 824 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:14,480 I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection that it's like, this is a whole lot easier. 825 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:20,160 Well, you know what I'm thinking of Deborah is and Scott is bringing a little scripture 826 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:27,040 into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight when Lehi has a stream, right, of the 827 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:32,120 tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod. 828 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,600 And there are four groups of people that he describes in that. 829 00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,920 And one of the groups is the group that is clinging. 830 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:46,440 Use the word clinging to the rod of iron and they get to the tree and they notice the great 831 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:51,400 spacious building and they fall away. 832 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,480 The cleaners don't last. 833 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,880 And then he sees another group of people that are simply holding fast. 834 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:03,720 He could use the term that he uses that they're holding fast. 835 00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:10,040 They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit and they fall down in worship. 836 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:15,880 They are they acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit 837 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,800 at least as the atonement of Jesus Christ. 838 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,720 They fall down. 839 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:25,440 They they are not at all interested in the great spacious building. 840 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:32,600 And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners never last. 841 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,280 You have to hold fast. 842 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:40,960 And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of Jesus Christ. 843 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:47,720 And the key to that is how we see our savior, our father's plan of redemption and the role 844 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:52,720 of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement. 845 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:54,360 And that makes it enduring. 846 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,040 I mean, it looks completely different. 847 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,760 It feels completely different, right? 848 00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:58,760 Right. 849 00:56:58,760 --> 00:56:59,760 Absolutely. 850 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,040 And that that just brought me to in my patriarchal blessing. 851 00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,840 It tells me in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness. 852 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,560 Go forth and be happy, be happy, be happy. 853 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:19,440 And I literally am living that today is that joy and happiness in in living the gospel, 854 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:25,560 having it very much alive, being steadfast in in that again, I don't do it perfect and 855 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:31,480 I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I, I definitely am experiencing joy. 856 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,160 That was my favorite thing in in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and 857 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,280 repentance that resonated really big with me. 858 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:40,880 Yeah, I love that. 859 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:41,880 Thank you. 860 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,480 Well, um, thanks so much, Deb for being here. 861 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,360 Um, if you want to be with both of you and for the sweet relationship that you have. 862 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,880 So thank you for your example in that as well. 863 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,400 Well, thanks, Dave. 864 00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,880 We don't normally do this, but if for whatever reason you'd like to send a question even 865 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:08,320 to Deb or, um, reach out with whatever a comment to her or encouraging her or thanking her 866 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:14,240 for being here, do that through our email at he redeems us at gmail.com. 867 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,160 He redeems us at gmail.com. 868 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,640 Well, I, I have felt the spirit today. 869 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:24,920 I think that our listeners will too, as they listen to your openness, your transparency, 870 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:25,920 your love. 871 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,760 One thing that Deb is gifted with, and it is a spiritual gift. 872 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:30,880 She's gifted with love. 873 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:31,880 She knows how to love. 874 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,320 She loves everybody that she comes in contact with. 875 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,600 That that's a direct result of her feeling her heavenly father's love through the power 876 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,560 of our ordinary savior, Jesus Christ and his atonement as well. 877 00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,040 Thanks for being with us, Deb. 878 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,400 Dave, thanks for doing this again. 879 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,560 I cherish, I cherish, cherish these moments. 880 00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,560 Love you both so much. 881 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,880 Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us for another podcast. 882 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,080 We hope you feel God's love for you. 883 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,200 We hope and it's important to us that you do know that you have been redeemed through 884 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:03,200 his blood. 885 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:04,960 We look forward to being with you again. 886 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,440 Thanks for being with us today. 887 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:36,080 Take care.