Well, hello everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood.
In this podcast, we discuss hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus
Christ.
My name's Scott Durfey.
I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David Durfey.
Say hi, Dave.
Thank you, Scott.
It's so good to be here this morning.
We've got a great podcast in store, I think, today.
Real treat.
I'll get to that in just a minute.
Before we do, I just want to thank everybody for your emails.
We've received a lot of great questions and some experiences.
Wow, we've received a couple of wonderful experiences that have been shared with us,
experiences of hope, experiences of crying out, experiences of tying into the power of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His Atonement in ways that have made monumental
changes and even some small important changes in life.
So we're grateful for those.
We'd encourage you to continue sending us your emails.
We appreciate them very much.
We appreciate your suggestions.
We appreciate your questions.
We try to weave them into the conversation.
And again, we will probably be taking some individual podcasts to deal with some of those questions
at a future date.
But in the meantime, if we could just ask you to keep sending those to us, we appreciate
it.
You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com.
He redeemsusatgmail.com.
So we appreciate that very much.
We've had some great conversations, Dave, over the last several weeks about repentance,
what it's not, what it is.
We talked a little bit about confession.
We're going to continue in that vein on what repentance is in upcoming podcasts as well.
But today we're going to take just a little diversion from that vein in its entirety.
We definitely, these things that we're going to be doing today fall in that vein and in
fact personify the things that we're going to be talking about in a great way.
I want to introduce somebody who's super important to me.
She's very important to David as well, but I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to
have to not look at you, Dave.
I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me.
Dave's learned to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually
of our family.
My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today.
Wonderful story.
Say hi, Deb.
Hello, everyone.
It's so good to have you here.
So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little introduction about Deb, kind of give a little
background on her and then we'll get right into some questions and let Deb talk about
her story and the importance of it and how it relates to being redeemed through the blood
of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways.
So Deb and I actually met in 1998 in Lehigh, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in
and kind of helped and was super instrumental in helping develop and bring about the addiction
recovery program from the church here in Utah County.
And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that are obvious to those who have
been listening for a while.
For those who aren't, I'm a recovering alcoholic with 23 years and 11 months and two weeks
of sobriety.
You're going to have to have a party next month.
Yeah, October 26th.
That's right.
24 years.
But Deb and I met just prior to, well, just after, two months after my getting sober roughly
and a few years later, we ended up married.
Deb and I have had an opportunity to share both of our stories in sacrament meetings
and firesides, countless firesides and fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's
camps, heli-men's camps and those kinds of things.
It's been a wonderful experience for both of us as we've kind of hand in hand walked
the journey of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our own lives separately and together as
we've worked hard to do a little Brady Bunch thing.
We have seven kids between us.
We love them all.
We don't differentiate in who's who's or any of those things.
They're all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren.
We love them, I think just as much as we love our kids and maybe some days even a little
bit more.
So one other thing, you know, this story that I think Deb's going to be sharing at least
parts of it today is a story that she has personally shared in high schools and junior
highs and recovery centers, especially those specifically for women all over the state
of Utah and for over 20 years now and in fact well over 20 years now.
And this story that we're going to be talking about, especially as it relates to how it ties
into the redemption being redeemed through his blood, the blood of course of Jesus Christ,
our Lord and Savior, his power through the atonement.
As we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to be great relevance in
all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of those that may be
finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations.
So let's just start off Deb.
Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about maybe kind of
lead us into where we where you want to go with what we talk about here and we'll just
go from there.
So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories.
So when you invited me to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was
actually going to share.
But I feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular story, which
was a huge part of my life in Give Me Who I Am and forming me the way that it was just
part of my journey of how I learned more about me and more about the atonement of Jesus Christ.
And something Deb that can bless the lives of so many others.
I'm sure you're thinking about that.
Yeah, I always tell people I'm a good example of what not to be.
Or how to become.
There you go.
There's hope.
What you shouldn't be.
Yeah.
Anyway, as I was reflecting on what story I would share, I thought about one of the
first really big impactful experiences that happened in my life when I was between my junior
and senior year in high school.
And I was dating a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of youth pamphlet back
in the olden days.
And we just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down with a guy, don't stay out
past midnight.
And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay virtuous and to be worthy.
Those were the vague rules that I heard.
I'm sure there probably were many others that were getting more explicit, more explanation
than I was, but those are the ones that I basically remember.
And so when I was in the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an obedient youth
and I had an experience where I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with a
group of people and I did the unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie.
So you broke two rules.
I broke both rules all in the same night.
Layed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched a movie with, with a guy.
Long story short, I found myself being violated.
And it wasn't that night.
It was the, you know, the very next day during broad daylight.
I was, I was raped and it was very traumatic to me.
It was scary.
I was horrified.
I was devastated.
I fought with every strength in my body to stop what was going on and was not successful.
And I felt completely broken and so devastated.
When I left, I went, I was returning a video, if you guys remember back in the day of blockbuster
when you're returning videos.
And I remember going home and my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl up in
a ball and literally just go to sleep and not wake up.
I was so broken and so devastated for what had happened to me.
But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two rules that I was always
told not to break.
I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I didn't.
And so that now I understood why you don't do those things.
So feeling more than a victim, you felt that you had brought it on yourself and that you
deserved it.
I did.
I broke those rules.
And so I felt like I deserved that.
I knew better than, than that because I had been told that over and over and over and
I broke those two rules that were always told to me.
Can I ask a question real quick?
Yeah.
And I don't want you to lose your train of thought.
I don't want you were going to say, but can you kind of give us an overview of what your
relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus was like at that point?
So I was raised just like Nephi with goodly parents and we went to church every week and
I, I loved primary.
I loved all of the, you know, weekly church activities.
We participated.
We had family night every Monday night.
We had family prayer every morning.
I mean, I was, I was raised in a very strong, great home.
However, I did have my own interpretation of what God was.
Jesus was his helper in my, in my young mind.
He was there to help Heavenly Father.
And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that there was
a loving Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the
wrong choices.
And I, I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching
all the good and the bad.
And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of those black marks
that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the waters
of baptism.
They're all, all those black marks are going to go away.
And I remember thinking, I can't, yeah, it was the eraser.
And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong ever again.
Don't don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad
deed, whatever.
I just, I just remember my slate is clean.
And of course I, I knew shortly after I turned eight and into eight years and one day after
being baptized that there were some black marks already going up there.
And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God as I understood him is kind of
like the cop.
And I remember even sometimes being outside in the summer rain with the lightning and
stuff.
And I'm like, oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody right now because I can hear
some thunder.
But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to me.
I just thought, and then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers and I remember
them saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying because he's, you know,
I'm like, oh, maybe he's crying because he's upset with all black marks they have.
I mean, it's funny what we kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means
what.
How do you, how do you think that, that view that you had of heavenly father at that point,
how do you think that affected your reaction to all of these things that had just happened
to you?
Oh, I knew he was so mad at me.
I knew he was absolutely disappointed.
I knew that I had broke every rule that I had ever been told and I just knew he was
in pure utter disappointment with me.
So what I hear you describing Deb, is you say the commandments were clearly taught in
your home.
Yes.
But it wasn't so much, it was a gospel of commandments, do's and don'ts, and not so
much a gospel of relationships.
Sounds like really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what the Atonement of Jesus
Christ really was about.
What redemption was, what salvation was, how can we draw closer to them?
What's their character, attributes and perfections, which is the requirements to really exercise
faith in him?
Those things were kind of missing in your gospel youth upbringing.
Absolutely.
Everything was black and white.
It was all about the do's and the don'ts.
And I, it wasn't because it probably wasn't taught, but I sure didn't hear it or feel
it.
Whether it was me not listening, whether it was just the misunderstanding and I was telling
my own story and my own head of what this all looked like.
And the things that were spoken to me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and understood
it the best way I knew how, far as understanding God and his Son Jesus Christ.
And really I did not, I can tell you right now in the stage of my life, I truly did not
understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I had no clue Christ.
There's no way I understood that at that time.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're, you're raped.
How old were you?
It was the summer I turned 17.
Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments.
How did that, how did that go?
Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone.
I could not tell a single solitary soul.
I had brought this onto myself because of choices I had made.
And so there was, it was something that no one was going to know, even though deep down
inside it ate at me.
And I had this secret that was just utterly painful.
And I, I kept telling myself over and over, you're ruined.
You're damaged.
You're, you're not virtuous anymore.
You're not clean.
You're not pure.
You're not worthy.
So all of these stories.
And then as I would go to church and, and go into the young women, you know, organization
and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay virtuous and clean.
And I just knew all is lost.
I really knew all was lost.
There was no hope for me because it was, it was already broken.
How long after you were, did the, did the, your pregnancy was that the results?
So I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I, I couldn't resolve
it within my own head, within my own heart.
I couldn't resolve it.
And so, you know, of course I would get on my knees and say, you know, Heavenly Father,
this is really uncomfortable for me and I don't like it.
Can you please remove it?
And of course it didn't, because I didn't really understand exactly how to resolve it.
And so I think within, oh, I would say within a few months, I kind of threw my hands in
the air and gave up in the fact that I had a friend that introduced me to alcohol.
And when I realized that alcohol made me feel different and I didn't feel guilt and shame
and I didn't feel that story of not good enough, that helped numb out that story I was telling
myself and also the pain that went with that guilt and shame that was so alive in me.
And so then when I started drinking, then I'm, you know, reconnecting and, and having,
getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed.
I mean, it kind of spiraled down until then I find myself pregnant.
So it wasn't a one time thing, it was a choice.
After that it was a choice of, yeah, I like this.
I'm going to go do it this way.
And you had at that point not talked to anybody about this.
Oh no, never.
No.
You're hiding all of that, the drinking and everything and your parents and you hadn't
talked to the bishop or.
Oh no, no, I didn't talk to anybody about it.
The only one that knew was my friend and, and at the time my boyfriend.
Okay.
So I'm.
So what, so what, so what happened after that?
You say you got pregnant.
Once that happened, I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that?
I, I just remember I had to go over to the hospital to get a blood test.
I don't remember if they even had home tests that at that time, but I just remember going
over to the hospital and getting a blood test.
And then I had to get on my landline and call after four o'clock to find out the results.
And I remember when I called the hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other end said,
results are positive.
Like in such a happy way.
And I like in pure devastation hung up that phone and almost went back in the fetal position.
And I remember calling my friend and I said, I have no idea what to do.
I, I just got a positive test on, on my pregnancy and I, I got to tell my mom, I got to tell
my dad, this is something you don't hide.
This is something that you can't keep a secret.
Now it's, now it's going to be exposed.
And so I took some time and, and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him, sat them both
down and told them.
And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through this.
And I remember, you know, just feeling okay.
I know I devastated them.
I know they were just like jaw dropped and like, what are we going to do?
I remember the visualization.
And I remember feeling like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder, I just remember thinking,
how am I ever going to get out of this?
How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again?
How am I going to find like any kind of joy or happiness?
This is utter devastation and despair.
And I remember looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy.
I just want to fill your joy and happiness again.
And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and
helpless and broken with, with no tools to get out of this, this hole.
Damaged goods.
Oh, so damaged, so damaged goods.
Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at this point for
you?
I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders?
Did you?
So of course, I know that I know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when, when these
kinds of things happen.
And at this time I'm a senior in high school and I'm attending seminary.
I'm in my fourth year of seminary.
I was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time.
I'm very active in church still.
Your dad had been a bishop.
Yeah.
When I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something, but now I'm, I'm 17.
Of course I make an appointment with a bishop and at that point in my life and I'm, I'm
learning this as I'm older now listening to the, to what repentance is and what repentance
isn't.
Well, as, as a matter of fact, uh, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness,
uh, Institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students.
And you're very impactful there.
So yeah.
Yeah.
It's a different perspective today.
I'm in the circle of forgiveness and, and now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has
definitely, yes, has definitely changed my interpretation and understanding more fully
thank goodness and more holy.
So you went to the bishop.
So I made an appointment, go into the bishop and I, I basically say so I've been involved
in some things that I'm not really happy about and I'm pregnant.
And at this time I'm sure I can clearly tell you my bishop was absolute shocked because
his, the look on his face and then he dropped his head into his, both of his hands and just
kept shaking his head.
No.
And just in absolute utter like, Oh my gosh.
And he just kept saying, Oh Deb, Oh my gosh.
I can't believe this.
And he kept shaking his head.
No.
And I just sat there watching him with like eyes of like, Oh, can I just read this?
Run out of this room right now?
Can I just like exit?
Like cause I don't want to be here and watch this cause I already feel like that.
I already felt like he was feeling and I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head
and no, I can't believe this either.
I don't, it's not the ideal.
This was not my goal.
And so long story short, I left and I remember my parents asking me, so how did it go with
the bishop?
And so let me back up for just a second because I think it's important to know at that time
in my life, I really, it was really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is
the mouthpiece for the savior.
This is like, you're going to confess and you're going to go tell a priesthood authority
what you have done.
And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, okay, this is how the savior feels about me.
This is how he, he's, he's disgusted.
He is devastated.
He is like shocked.
He just cannot believe that I have, I have got myself in this situation.
And so then again, the story enhances and then I believe that this is exactly how the
savior feels about me and, and where we're going.
But you know, it's like, yep, I've disappointed him.
Yep, I am ruined.
Yep.
I'm in a big, bad choice and here I am.
And so anyway, when I get home and I'm, my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the
bishop?
And I said, honestly, I feel worse.
I don't feel forgiven because that was my checklist.
I was, if I went in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better.
That was, that was the rule of the repentance process in my little brain.
And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and, and confessed to him and I
came home feeling worse, I was like, okay, that was a big fat fail.
That did not work.
You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, okay, now we were going to go find
a support group.
And at that time, um, LDS social services had a support group for single girls, women
that were pregnant out of wedlock and they would have a counseling group and they would
go at four o'clock on Tuesdays or something.
And we would all sit around at a table and talk about what we were going to do.
Um, some, and some of these girls were further along.
Some of these girls had already had babies.
Some of them placed them for adoption.
Some of them kept them.
They just basically shared their story of this is why I chose this.
This is why I chose that.
And as an observer and as a terrified little girl, um, in this situation, I got to see,
um, things that were happening in their lives.
So, um, and how they handled the, a similar situation.
So I started going to that support group.
Um, I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant.
It was a big fat secret secret.
And I just wore big hoodies.
Nobody knew.
I didn't say anything to anybody.
There were speculations, of course, rumors get out and I grew up in a really small town.
And when I graduated from high school, I immediately moved up and to West Jordan, um, with my
brother and sister-in-law, they graciously opened a room to me and, and welcomed me.
You did that on your own or were you encouraged to do that?
Um, I was encouraged to, yeah, get out of town until I decided what I was going to do
with this pregnancy.
So somewhat did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned?
For sure.
Uh, yeah, I, I just had to, you know, get out of the small town cause we didn't want
to ruin reputations and ruin, you know, what was supposed to look, what it was supposed
to look like.
So you were sent away.
Uh, yeah.
I, I, I did get a job up in Salt Lake.
Um, I did, I, I do need to back up a little bit because after I had talked to the Bishop
within a week or two, I was at church and, and I still attended church.
I didn't stop going to church.
He called me in his office and he very humbly said, Deb, I owe you an apology.
I just want you to know how sorry I am for the way I handled that situation.
And I, I want you to know that I'm, I'm human and I make mistakes and that was a really
big mistake and I hope you can forgive me.
That was a tender, tender, pivotal time in my life to be able to feel his sincere repentance
and sorrow for the way that he handled that situation.
Um, long story short, he, you know, as I was working through that, they, I was able to
graduate four years of seminary.
I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking, but was able to graduate
four years of seminary and then graduate from high school.
And then I moved up to, to Salt Lake.
The Bishop up there and the whole ward was great.
I'm 17 years old and, and now it's quite obvious that I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling
and I was so excited to have a calling and they asked me to be the ward chorister.
And the first week that I, that I led this singing was the fourth of July.
So I made everybody stand up.
I was so nervous, but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward.
Deb's very musical.
I will always cherish the hymn she sang, sang for our group at Adam on the almond.
And anyway, you've been very blessed and gifted Deborah with musical talent.
Oh, that's sweet.
Thank you.
That makes total sense.
You'd be leading music when you were 18 years old.
I know your parents were as well, but anyway, we came by it honestly.
Yeah.
So at this point you're going to church.
You feel like you're kind of getting back on track.
You feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things to work through
and things that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts.
You're going to the, you're going to church, you're participating in the thing that you
love.
And Dave's right.
Deb is very musical and music is an extremely important part of her life.
And so that was really kind of a tender mercy, wasn't it?
That you were invited to be there.
Deb has two favorite callings in the church.
One of them is to be the ward chorister and the other ones to be in young women's and
she's phenomenal at both.
But so that's going on.
And then there is something else happened.
So I kept going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption.
Worked really closely with the therapist.
Caseworker maybe?
Caseworker there.
That I worked closely with her and said, okay, this is, this is my choice.
This is what I'm going to do.
So you had decided to place the baby for adoption.
Yeah.
And I was back and forth.
I, you know, there were days that I was like, I don't know if I can do this.
This is really difficult because all I ever wanted to be in my whole life was a mom and
to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom or that wanted another
baby in their life.
It was a really, really hard decision.
And you talk about crying out in previous episodes.
I definitely had those moments of crying out and I pleaded with the Lord to please lead
me and guide me, help me know where this innocent, pure child is supposed to be.
And I knew I could love the baby.
I knew I could.
But because I chose not to marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life,
I was like, this child deserves a dad, a good dad.
And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was given this child exactly what I was
graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me.
And so as I journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those
nine months, I felt like I was led the way that they did it then was they would say,
okay, we have family ABCDE.
And here are the characteristics.
This was completely closed adoption.
And they said, this is the color of their hair.
This is their things they like.
Take these names and these people and pray about it.
And I did.
I did not take that lightly.
I knew this was a huge, this was impacting in eternities.
And I knew that I needed to be a part of that.
I needed to listen to the spirit because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to
be, but I knew God knew that's a pretty heavy task for a 17 year old.
Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age.
Yeah, but you did it.
Obviously have great faith.
Yeah, I did do it.
And when I, when I chose the first family and the family and the group that the social
services, they have a committee that they pray together.
They, they say, we're going to take and pray about it too.
We all felt good about this first, like family A or something.
And they approached the bishop and the bishop said, you know, I don't know what's going
on with the family.
They're not as active.
They're not paying tithing.
They don't know that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family.
That was impactful in my life right there.
And then for the simple fact is what, what blessings am I foregoing because of choices
I'm making in my life?
I will never forget that.
And so we went back to family ABCDE and took out family A or whatever family that was.
We prayed about it again to find the next family that was ready for this, this infant.
That has been a really big part of remembering at again at a very young age to, to remember
that blessings are predicated on, on our obedience.
And that was a really huge lesson for me to learn.
Well, so, so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much everything
and you're obviously really focused on commandments then and that is an amazing lesson, right?
The blessings are predicated upon our obedience, right?
Amen.
But at this point in your life being so focused on that while not understanding the Atonement
of Jesus Christ, is that fair to say?
Yeah, 100% fair.
So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
You're praying to God, you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the Spirit
of the Lord in spite of your, your challenges and your past and all of that.
But there's, is it fair to say that there's no repentance taking place basically?
In my, at that time, I thought this was repentance in that innocence or that ignorance, whatever
you want to call it.
I felt like, oh, yeah, okay, this is the repentance process because I went and talked to the bishop
and now I'm getting answers from Heavenly Father of what to do and how to move forward
with this mistake, with this sin.
But as far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was, did, definitely
did not feel like as white as snow.
Well, I, I want to correct myself.
I'm sure there was some repenting taking place, but crying out, right, that's part of repentance,
having a relationship with our Heavenly Father, feeling the Spirit, seeing the Bishop, all
of that's, all of that's really good stuff.
All that's positive.
But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, His atoning sacrifice was at that time not really,
I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then.
Well, no, and as I finish my story, you're going to see, I mean, it'll, it'll really
play out.
So long story short, I have this baby and she was feet first.
So I knew before the baby was born that she would need to be a C-section and I asked my
doctor if they could put me completely out.
I don't want that, that bonding moment.
My family was so supportive, my mom was there and my sister and sisters and I just had a
lot of support as far as that goes.
And so they put me out, give me a C-section, I wake up and there's this baby.
And because I had her C-section, she stayed in the hospital with me and I, I got to spend
five special days with her that I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion.
And there were bets in the hospital that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't
mine.
I knew she wasn't.
I was just a tool to get her here.
So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family.
And of course, the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy and I can only
imagine because I've been able in years now to see the joy that, you know, people that
have adopted have been able to experience and especially in a blended family, I feel
like I put one out into the universe and got four in return.
I got four bonus kids when I married Scott and I just feel like it's God's way of saying,
thank you, Deb.
And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely close relationship
that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family.
Yeah, it's pretty tender.
And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a family.
After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done, I've done the hardest thing in my life.
I can get on with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married
in the temple and live happily ever after.
I moved out with some roommates, so I'm no longer living with my brother.
I have a job up in Salt Lake.
I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she was taking
me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating and
within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest
and before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again.
And I remember thinking, I thought I learned my lesson.
This is so, and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told this person that I had
had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was, ugh, you
know, kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you.
So again, there was more rejection and more validation that I'm not clean.
I'm not pure.
I'm not forgiven.
I'm not, you know, virtuous.
I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get because of the story that I kept
telling myself.
And I think that was probably the biggest thing that I've learned through all of this
is even though I felt like I had made a wrong right, I had not really used the Atonement
of Jesus Christ to allow it to cleanse or to purify the belief or the lies or to enable
you to enable you and strengthen you to make the changes that you needed to make and to
be changed through his atoning sacrifice.
So now I'm right in the exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in
place for adoption, I'm pregnant again.
And so when they talk about repeating the same sin over and over, I now have pictures
to go with those words and I'm not telling my mom because the dad and dad, the devastation
and all my older brothers and sisters had all been married in the temple and serve missions.
And so now I have this dirty little secret that we kind of hid.
And now it's like, okay, now what do I do?
Because I'm definitely not going through that again.
That was excruciating like so hard.
And so I just, we decided to get married.
We have this wedding that's not in the temple, not in the, you know, and I'm, I'm getting
comments from family members that come through the wedding line is, you know, this is not
what the graves do.
This is not what we do.
Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt already.
So just knowing all of the shame and I shun and disappointment and what am I doing to
this, this family name?
What am I doing to my life?
I'm destroying my own life.
And I honestly feel like now as I look back, I really felt like because I was so broken
and so damaged and so used and abused, not only now not being a virgin, but not, I mean,
I'll have scars and stretch marks and I'm, I'm pretty much damaged goods who is going
to want this.
So I, I think the story that kept going on in my mind was there's no way of cleaning
this up.
And I did not really believe that that's what the atonement was for was to clean that mess
up, to make that wrong right.
Because then I added an alcohol on top of it, which was another rule that you do not
dream, you know, stay virtuous, no fornication, no, all of this.
And now it's just like I just jumped deeper into a pit.
So I think that was the piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand.
I really do not understand the atonement.
I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and over and over and even understanding.
So you were how old when you were married?
Deborah?
I had just turned 19.
Now you're married and you have the baby.
And, and so all of this stuff is heaped up.
Yeah, it's piled on top of piles.
And you're trying to start a marriage and, and just in a few seconds, how did that go?
So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was probably my motto for, for, you know,
suffer.
Oh, definitely suffer.
Just I'm going to suffer.
Yeah.
Yes.
And one of the blessings that came from that marriage was within a year of being married
a little over a year, we were able to take Jessica to be filled to her in the temple.
And I received my endowments and I remember really when I entered the temple feeling,
I remember having a pomegranate.
I just remember literally feeling like everything's better now.
Everything is going to work.
Everything's going to be okay.
It was like, this was my destination place.
This is where I needed to get to.
And now I'm finally here.
And I really hung on to the temple like clung, like almost like, you know, snowstorm when
you're just squeezing that steering wheel.
I really feel like that's when I really was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight
because there were a lot of things that had happened that had gone on in that marriage.
I had, I have three amazing children from that marriage, but there were a lot of challenges
in that marriage that were very, very hard.
Commandments and now ordinances.
Yep.
You're really clinging to ordinances and your faith is no doubt really strong in your heavenly
father and in, in keeping the commandments and walking the covenant path, what's your
relationship with the savior at that point?
I think with the challenges that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of
the punishment for living the life I have lived.
And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and now I have the tools to pray and stay
active.
And I, I, I remember at that time in my life, I kept thinking, maybe if literally I thought
this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing or maybe
if I go three times a week to the temple instead of just once, I, I remember like literally
swinging, swinging that pendulum completely the other way.
Great example of trying to save yourself.
That's a great example.
And I mean, we've all, I think we all, we all do that.
But at some point or have that we, we try to, to save ourselves.
Oh yeah.
It was a white knuckle experience.
We not only, we not only believe that we suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering
or punishment as consequences of our sin, but you and I've experienced this as well.
You think you actually have to suffer for your sins.
Yeah.
For sure.
Right.
You're not only suffering because of them.
You're suffering for them.
Oh yeah.
You're trying to pay back.
Oh yeah.
I literally, it was like, I, I wore that victim card loud and proud.
I was such a victim.
It's funny to say now, but yeah, it was, it was very interesting.
So we, we don't have a lot of time left.
We're winding up.
How did that marriage end?
And then how did it go after that and Deborah, at what point in your life do you feel like
you finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ and when did you feel like
through his merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and
saved and you experienced the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well, at the end of the marriage, I, I just feel like we grew apart.
I mean, he, I did not, I would, I didn't, I was not the person he married.
I changed and I changed a lot.
And so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just, it was better that he go
his way and I go my way.
He's married to a wonderful woman too.
Yes.
He has a good life.
I love her and I'm so grateful for her.
She's great to my kids and my grandkids.
I'm, I, yes.
As I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and
stuff and he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together.
It wasn't until after I had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped
and lost my recommend and was unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what
the Atonement of Jesus Christ was because of the void.
It wasn't there.
And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel.
I was clinging to the temple.
And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual time out and I wouldn't
even say spiritual, but maybe a physical time out to just kind of spiritually reconnect
and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine because
I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality.
I didn't understand it the way that I do now.
And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and this devastating, you
know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact is there
were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of, of turmoil, a lot of years of self
doubt and self, a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards
the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I did not have to carry that for decades.
I did not have to carry that victim.
I did not have to carry that any, any piece of that.
And I think that's the part that it's like, I just want to, I just want to stand on the
top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you make the same mistake over and over
and over again, there is hope and it is only through the Savior of Jesus Christ and his
blood.
And I know that today.
I know that I'm still not done messing up.
I know that and I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form, but I'm grateful
that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit and that I can
cry unto him.
You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you have a cry out moment?
I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily that I just plead, plead with him, just
help my will and thy will be one.
Please help me commune with thee.
That is my wish and desire and I definitely don't do it perfect or right, but every day
there's effort and I'm just grateful today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves
me and I know that the Savior is very well aware of my journey and he did drip drops
of blood for me.
He hung on that cross for me and he was resurrected for me and for that I have hope, a lot of
hope and a lot of joy.
And knowing that makes all the difference.
I'll just say something here quickly and then Scott and Deborah, you can finish it.
Part of what I've experienced today is, and I may have shared this before in episode,
but I think this is so important for parents to get this lesson as they've listened to
Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in their lives and their families.
I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training center and Boyd K. Packer, President
Packer was teaching and he told the missionaries there, we're not going to judge you by your
number of baptisms, we're going to judge you by what kind of parents and grandparents
you become.
And on that note he said, I have some counsel for you, that you now live in a world that
is more wicked than it is righteous.
And if you don't do a better job teaching your children the atonement of Jesus Christ,
then you do teaching the commandments to your children, you're going to lose your children
because they're not going to keep all the commandments.
That's where we're at.
And your example of that Deborah is I think amazing how you have come back from so much
in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now, which I've always
been inspired by you and since I've known you since you married Scott, how grateful
I am for you, your example and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice in
your life.
So thank you so much for sharing that with us.
Thank you.
Well, so I've heard this story literally hundreds of times and I'm never left without
impact every time I do.
I appreciate your honesty, I appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with
maybe a hard thing to sometimes put out there.
And I know a lot of people would find it extremely difficult to talk about these things.
And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too just because I watch you do that.
And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage, your strength in doing so because
you know, we've had last night we were sitting out on our deck in preparation for the things
that we were going to talk about.
And I asked you, why, why do you do this?
And you know, your answer is the same as my answer when I'm asked that question about,
you know, when I share my story and stuff too.
And your answer was if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or strength
or even just an inkling, a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're
not in the exact same situation, but may be filling those feelings of distance from our
Heavenly Father because of choices that we make or filling that separation of the spirit,
whether it be real or imagined, because of the way that we have been raised in a culture
where we talk about commandments and those things are important.
And sometimes we could do a better job in talking about our relationship with our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ.
I've watched you.
I know your relationship with him.
Deb and I, when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and
just being there and feeling our Heavenly Father spirit.
We have an important relationship, Deb and I do, Dave.
And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly Father for being
the most important person in our relationship.
He's first.
He's first to Deborah and he's first to me.
And because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward to an eternity
with.
Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart?
No, I just, I just appreciate being able to share my story.
And again, just pray that it can touch one person to at least look at the possibility
to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives.
Because it is such, it's been such a huge impactful thing in my life.
And I'm just so grateful.
I just have one more thought.
You mentioned after you were married, your first marriage and going to the temple and
you were just going to endure to the end.
That's how you kind of saw it, right?
Yep.
And you were clinging.
You said you used that word clinging to that.
How do you see enduring to the end differently now?
Then you did then.
Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think the clinging is more in a triad with Heavenly
Father and having a companion that wants what I want and has the same goals, has the same,
I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection that it's like, this is a whole lot easier.
Well, you know what I'm thinking of Deborah is and Scott is bringing a little scripture
into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight when Lehi has a stream, right, of the
tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod.
And there are four groups of people that he describes in that.
And one of the groups is the group that is clinging.
Use the word clinging to the rod of iron and they get to the tree and they notice the great
spacious building and they fall away.
The cleaners don't last.
And then he sees another group of people that are simply holding fast.
He could use the term that he uses that they're holding fast.
They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit and they fall down in worship.
They are they acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit
at least as the atonement of Jesus Christ.
They fall down.
They they are not at all interested in the great spacious building.
And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners never last.
You have to hold fast.
And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And the key to that is how we see our savior, our father's plan of redemption and the role
of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement.
And that makes it enduring.
I mean, it looks completely different.
It feels completely different, right?
Right.
Absolutely.
And that that just brought me to in my patriarchal blessing.
It tells me in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness.
Go forth and be happy, be happy, be happy.
And I literally am living that today is that joy and happiness in in living the gospel,
having it very much alive, being steadfast in in that again, I don't do it perfect and
I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I, I definitely am experiencing joy.
That was my favorite thing in in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and
repentance that resonated really big with me.
Yeah, I love that.
Thank you.
Well, um, thanks so much, Deb for being here.
Um, if you want to be with both of you and for the sweet relationship that you have.
So thank you for your example in that as well.
Well, thanks, Dave.
We don't normally do this, but if for whatever reason you'd like to send a question even
to Deb or, um, reach out with whatever a comment to her or encouraging her or thanking her
for being here, do that through our email at he redeems us at gmail.com.
He redeems us at gmail.com.
Well, I, I have felt the spirit today.
I think that our listeners will too, as they listen to your openness, your transparency,
your love.
One thing that Deb is gifted with, and it is a spiritual gift.
She's gifted with love.
She knows how to love.
She loves everybody that she comes in contact with.
That that's a direct result of her feeling her heavenly father's love through the power
of our ordinary savior, Jesus Christ and his atonement as well.
Thanks for being with us, Deb.
Dave, thanks for doing this again.
I cherish, I cherish, cherish these moments.
Love you both so much.
Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us for another podcast.
We hope you feel God's love for you.
We hope and it's important to us that you do know that you have been redeemed through
his blood.
We look forward to being with you again.
Thanks for being with us today.
Take care.