Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope,
healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I'm Scott Durfey and it's
my pleasure to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, Brother David Durfey.
Good to be here. Thank you, Scott. Yeah, it's good to have you, Dave. Great week this week. We
just released a podcast from last week that we recorded with Brother Scott Harmon,
interview with Scott Harmon and that was a great one. We'll reference that one here again in just a
few minutes. But before we do that, I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've received
some great emails recently and we're doing our best to get to your questions and to incorporate
them in our discussion. So keep those coming. We can receive those at heredeemsusatgmail.com.
He redeems us at gmail.com. So Dave, like I said last week, it was a great experience to have yet
another interview with us. We had Brother Scott Harmon. Scott had spent, I think he said seven
years, right? Seven years in the Utah State Penitentiary for some things to pay back at debt to
society. We had prior to him a few weeks prior to that, we had Brother Nate Muller and man,
that was an amazing interview as well. Two great men, a lot of great things came from that.
They had a few things in common, right, Dave? Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about
those interviews quite a bit and it's both of them, it blessed my life. I've, uh,
this past week's, it's, we did Scott most recently, I've been thinking about hard, concrete, prison
floors and about how so many fall down on those hard, concrete, prison floors. Got to happen to
be in solitary confinement and cry out to God. And you know, Scott, as I've thought about that this
past week, I thought, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a concrete floor in a prison in solitary
confinement or if it's in a closet or a wood floor or next to my bed on a carpet floor or
wherever it may be in the mountains on a dirt floor or wherever it may be, you know, ultimately,
Scott, this whole process of redemption and repentance and a relationship with Jesus Christ
and with our Heavenly Father comes down to crying out to him and confessing our inabilities, our
loneliness, our inadequacies and, uh, and just really offering our, our souls up to him. And so,
I, that's, that's, I think the part that really affected me and whether it was Scott or Nate,
Nate, I think did it in a car or, you know, in his crying out, doesn't matter where you are or
what your circumstances may be or, uh, we all need to do that. Prophets do that. When they pray,
they cry out. Uh, we all need to cry out and whenever I say those words, I always think of, uh,
uh, the brother of Jared crying out. I think of Enos crying out. I think of Amulek in, in, uh,
Alma 34 who says, cry out in the morning, cry out in the noon, cry out in the evening,
cry out in your fields, cry out in your closet, cry out, cry out, cry out and,
and, uh, Nate and Scott, uh, were, I think just great examples of that. And I hope that our listeners
and, and you and me, that we all, uh, are crying out to God on a regular basis and it's never a
one-time thing. Uh, I, I tried this morning to cry out to my Heavenly Father and some, some days
it's more effective than others. Yeah. I think that depends a lot of times on where we are. I think
the, uh, necessity of crying out was precipitated, uh, you know, for Scott and Nate, for example,
out of some extreme circumstances. And it's not always necessary though that we go through those
extreme circumstances to facilitate and precipitate a crying out. I mean, I've had those extreme
experience experiences. I've, I've done that crying out as well. And it has been on multiple
occasions, you know, sometimes on a dirt floor up above Tempanuki, uh, right here behind Tempanogis
Mountain as my horse is tied to a tree or sometimes in a barn, uh, where the haze been building up for
50 years, the same one that you helped build as a teenager. Yeah. I painted that. I tried to sustain
that the first time. It's been painted multiple times since there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and, you
know, and a myriad of other places, you know, I've, I've had my crying out to, you know, where
there were, um, federal officials and the cement floor and those types of things as well. So I,
I think that that's important though, that we note that, that it doesn't need to come out of
extremity. We don't need that crying out to be because we have been beaten bloody. We can cry out
when things are just not quite right too. Yeah. And, um, in the future, we, we look forward to
having other individuals, uh, join us on the podcast. Um, I look forward to those, those
interviews and some of them will be, uh, in their extremities. They'll talk about their
extremities and sometimes it'll just maybe be, uh, members of the church who haven't, uh, had to go
through some of those, uh, difficult dramatic experiences, but have just did it daily. I,
I think you and I were talking a little bit this morning before we started this episode and, uh,
you know, if you cry out one time and have the miraculous event that, that I think Scott had
in solitary confinement or you may cry out in your bedroom kneeling at your bed for dozens of
times and, and it can be just as effective. Uh, whatever it takes, but the bottom line, I guess,
is Scott is that we all need to come to a point in our life where we know we are heavenly fathers
children, that he is our father, that he loves us, that he's not mad at us, that he knew we would
sin. He's not shocked or surprised or angry, that he wants to help us and we cry out to him,
expressing our, our broken heart, contrite spirit and, and pleading for his help and thanking him
in the depths of our soul for the plan of redemption and his son and for the shedding of his blood.
I mean, those are the, just the elementary common elements of Scott and Nate and you and me and
all of us that we have to experience to, to really experience redemption through his blood.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's no question. You know, we had some great patterns and some great
teachers of that throughout scripture. We've seen it beginning back as early as Adam and Eve and all
through, all through from the beginning of time until up until the name, including now. And, you
know, I, and it's our invitation. If you're not crying out as our listeners, find reason and find
occasion and make that occasion and experience that because, you know, as we talk about putting on the
Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is the, the, really the principal purpose behind this podcast
is to help us to all come unto him more fully. But in order for us to do that, that's really an
important component and element of that experience, Dave. Yeah. Hey, one, one other, did you have
something else you wanted to add to that? Well, share what you kind of said. Yeah, that's what I
was going to do. I noticed one thing, but let me ask you this, Dave, do you have a primary song or a
hymn that motivates you that or are there a bunch of them or? Well, I, I know the power of music,
Scott. Yeah. In our life. And it is a instrument of grace. It can administer the spirit in, in our
life for sure. And yes, I have a few and Jesus, the very thought of the hymn number, I think it's
141. More holiness, give me. Yeah, I love that one too. There's this, there's this little section
in the hymn book between the 130s and 140s that just really put me in a, a contrite, sweet, humble
spirit and just I really feel connect me through the Holy Spirit to my, to my Heavenly Father.
And, and those, those hymns can really express the desires of my heart. They do that for me too. I
remember and you will too, as we were both growing up once a month on a Sunday or a Monday, we would
meet at your house, Grandma and Grandpa's house as a big family. And we do have a big family and,
and I, and the song, the hymn, there's beauty all around must ring in your heart like it does in mine
and bring back some sweet, sweet, sweet spiritual experiences. Well, Scott and Nate both and they're
it unsolicited. They didn't, I don't think Scott was able to listen to Nate's. It's interesting how
these two themes came up early, early on for both of them. But for Nate, he said that he
remembered a primary song, I am a child of God. And he said, and I just kept hearing that over
and over. And you know, and I'm, I'm paraphrasing, obviously I'm not quoting exactly what he said,
but I kept hearing over and over and over that refrain sweetly echoing in my mind that I am a
child of God. Well, if I'm a child of God, then there must be something worth living for. And it
changed him. Scott's was a child's prayer. Heavenly Father, are you really there? You know,
something like that. The words were right. The words were right. The tone was way off. But,
but you know, hopefully I didn't just chase the spirit away from that one, because that was
what, you know, really helped Scott, you know, he wanted to know Heavenly Father, are you really
there? Do you really hear my prayer? And he got confirmation that indeed he did. And, you know,
so I guess the message behind that is we get emails, we get questions from people we know,
how do we help our children? How do we help our kids? And you know, sometimes the ways that we're
able to help our children to help those that are younger that are coming up and it doesn't have
to be primary age, it can be any age, but to let them experience the programs and the spirit that
comes through the programs like primary, like young men's young women's to encourage attendance and
participation and not to just be there, but to be there and feel there, be feel what you're feeling
there. You never know when a little song like I am a child of God might totally capitulate a person's
trajectory in their life for the better. And so keep that in mind parents and adults as we're
raising our kids that there's just huge power in those kinds of things. Well, even though neither
one of us can really carry a tune, I think it's really important for all of us to use the power
of music in our homes, to sing individually, right, maybe sing in the car, to maybe sing when
we're out in the open. More holiness give me affects me so much because as a young man preparing
to go on a mission down where we used to deer hunt down the park or mountain, I went down there all
alone and on the top of a mountain with a little pocket hymn book and scriptures in hand, I just
belted out more holiness give me and was just flooded by the spirit in my life to strive to
be a better person. I think we can use that in our homes in our in our in connection with come
follow me. We should sing maybe once in a while we should sing in family home evenings with our
families we should play recorded music in our homes, especially on the Sabbath and probably
every other day of the week. But but Scott when I became a patriarch and I was an ordained patriarch
giving blessings, the music was a powerful part of my preparation to connect with the spirit
and to be able to to give blessings. I felt as though that music would open up the windows of
heaven for me in my little office as I listened to some of my favorite hymns and sacred music.
So yeah, I think Nate and and Scott were both examples of that, but we could all do just a
little bit better using music as I call it an instrument of grace to bring grace and spirit
into our lives and into our homes. Yeah, there's no question. One that stands out to me and I'll end
and transition with this one. But may my soul commune with thee, you know, Deb, my wife and I
and I both for whatever reason, that's just kind of been one that when I'm feeling a little disconnected
if I can just even hear the words or the tune of that song in my mind even it seems to have a
recentering effect that brings me right back or or maybe it doesn't bring me completely right back,
but it definitely puts me on the trajectory to do so. And I think that there's just huge power.
There's so much power in that that, you know, there's a reason, you know, we know that Psalms
was the hymn book of old Israel, right? And you know, and so if they're in scripture there,
they've got to be important to us. Anyway, yeah, hymns according to Dr. incumbent section 25,
we learn how important they are to the Lord that they are hymn is a prayer of righteousness.
And I think there's a connection between listening to inspired music and crying out to God. I found
that listening to music would prepare me to cry out to God. So anyway, some common elements from
those two interviews and I hope that they've blessed the lives of our listeners the way they
blessed my life. And I think they have. I know that there's it's just really difficult to not feel
an inspiration and inspired not to feel inspired, not to feel motivated, but mostly not to feel a
touch of the spirit to communing and testifying to us of the truthfulness of the things that we
hear when we hear them like we did with those two gentlemen. So we want to just again, thank Scott
Harmon and Nate Mueller for being with us. We look forward to doing many more in the future.
Again, as Dave mentioned, a similar type and maybe even some that are going to be
significantly different in nature. We're looking forward to that day before Scott, our last episode
where we really focused on the content of the things that we're talking about specifically,
repentance and forgiveness to help us put on the atonement of Jesus Christ. We were talking about
we had began our discussion around repentance. And as part of that discussion around repentance,
we talked about two things. I think that you you you say it well, I heard you actually in a pot
another podcast and we can give that podcast a shout out right now. But another it's called
leading saints, leading saints find that podcast leading saints. I don't remember specifically
the podcast number the day was on, but it was released on July 25th or thereabouts, did a great
kind of a summary, a distillation, if you will, of all of the things that we talk about in as part
of this podcast and did it all in kind of just one there was a great podcast for those of you who
are leaders in the church and for those of you who are not either way that program that brother
Frank him has going over there is just a really a great podcast and something that you should
engage in. But Dave, one of the things that as I was listening to you, and I've heard you say this
before, as you begin to describe repentance, you say sometimes the best way to describe something
and to tell us what it is is to actually explore what it is not. Because especially when it comes
to a concept like repentance and especially growing up in a culture and in a in a norm where,
you know, we have certain things that have been indelibly imprinted on our minds about what repentance
means. And some of that comes from the tradition of our fathers, some of that comes from the
tradition even of their fathers dating back to Protestant and you know the Reformation and
even Catholicism and and how all of those things have come through in terms of attitude, not doctrine,
but in terms of attitude towards repentance. And it's no wonder that so much of our attitude
has been towards repentance in ways that may not just be 100% accurate. And so I think it is
a really good exercise, as you mentioned, as you put forth, that we describe what repentance is not.
And so we first talked about how repentance is not a checklist or excuse me, first we talked about
how repentance is not punishment for sin. Yeah, Scott, you know, I learned that that method of
first describing what something is not before you describe what it is from Elder Theodore Burton
many, many years ago in his training when I was at the missionary training center in the talk that
he gave at the BYU many, many years ago, powerful, powerful general authority. Anyway, I have come
to really witness that, that to really understand what something is, you have to first understand
what it's not. And repentance is not punishment, penalty, or payment for sin. I just, we can't
say that strong enough. And Dr. Incovenants section 19 verse 4, it says basically, repent or suffer.
So what's the opposite of repenting? Suffering. Suffering. And repentance, in, in repentance,
President Kimball said this, I'm, I'm, I'm repeating a little bit what we said in the previous podcast,
but rep, repentance may include some suffering, but the suffering is not caused by repentance.
The suffering is always caused by the sin. And I think that distinction is critical
so that people don't fear repentance. They should be fearing sin. Repentance is the,
the release of that, getting that out. It's the great analogy in Elder Anderson's book was the
individual with cancer. Okay, so if we, if we have cancer, spiritual or physical, we may need to go
see a doctor, we may need to go to the hospital, there may even need to be, be surgery or some
consequences. But the pain is not caused by the doctor or the hospital or the process of healing.
The pain is caused by the cancer or by the sin in the case of repentance.
Right. And then we moved into repentance is not simply a checklist.
It's not a checklist. I really love how Elder Anderson sweetly recognized that some people
need a checklist. Yeah.
And the problem with previous checklists when repentance has been taught is that
rely on your redeemer was never one of the Rs that ever got mentioned. They'd give you three Rs,
five Rs, seven Rs, eight Rs, whatever. But I love how Elder Anderson in his book gave it,
individuals who need a checklist, he gave them one and it's focused in Jesus Christ. And I'd
like to just share this. He said, you know, some of you may need a checklist. So here's,
here's how we might include the Savior's name in the five Rs of repentance.
Recognize that what I have done wrong has offended Jesus Christ.
To fill remorse that my actions have offended God and cause Jesus Christ to suffer
and cause suffering to God's children. So this, this is an important one goes back to the kind
of the first one. It's got it's important to know that Christ is the one who suffered
for our sins so that we don't have to. Yeah. There may be suffering in sin, but not in the
repentance process because Christ suffered for all of that. Three resolve to change my behavior
realizing that my own willpower is not enough without the help of Jesus Christ. I am powerless
to repent. So let me push pause for Anya for just a second right there. There's a, that my own will
power is not enough. So often Dave, we believe and I've believed this myself that I need to do
all my willpower everything and then when I can anymore, that's when I need to turn to him.
Well, this comes, that will come into play, especially when we get into the third what
repentance is not. So amen. Yeah. And we'll let's let's expand on that in just a moment.
Number four, reform, change, repent, appealing for the grace of Jesus Christ, His mercy and His
power to help me never repent the, repeat the offense. And number five, make restitution to
those I have hurt and offended most importantly to the savior who suffered the pains of all
in this way. I am repenting. So then he says this, which I, which I love. It's, it's critical.
There's one more R that brings light to our respective perspective on how to see repentance.
Relie on the redeemer. The five hours come alive when they are centered in Jesus Christ.
So if you need a checklist, there you are. But the problem with a checklist and the reason I like
to say that repentance is not a checklist is because so many times Jesus isn't the center of that.
And it's kind of just like, okay, it's a, it's a to do list and, and we check it all off. We go
through it and we're, we feel good about checking off these boxes, but we get to the end of it,
Scott. And we never feel forgiven. And then we can't understand why we don't feel forgiven.
And the reason we don't feel forgiven or the reason there isn't some permanent change of
nature in our life is because Jesus Christ has never been really a part of it or let alone the
center of it. Yeah, that's right. In fact, somewhere in the book too, and it's in the same
chapter, he talks about an experience that Elder Bednar had. Elder Bednar was talking to a bishop
at BYU Idaho. I was going to say Rick's College because that's what it was when I went there.
But BYU Idaho, and he said that he had had a young woman come in there. Do you want to
tell it? You can tell it better than I can because you know you tell it. So he had a young woman come
in to this bishop and this young woman had, you know, participated in some things that would
cause her to not be temple worthy. Let's put it that way. That very weekend and as she had visited
with her bishop, she, when it was complete or done, when the visit was over, it wasn't complete.
But when the visit was over, she said something to the effect was, well, that was the last thing
on my checklist. My goodness, I feel better. I feel so much better now. I feel so much better now.
Right. Yeah. And what was Elder Bednar's response to that?
Well, actually, he was talking to mission presidents, trying to train mission presidents
on what repentance is and what it's not. And he in essence said, repentance is not confession.
So there's another thing that repentance is not. Now, I believe confession is an important,
critical part of our repentance. But it's the why we do the confession. And we'll get to that.
But it's the why the confession is done that's important, not the confession in and of itself.
And the confession to who? Exactly. You know, so many people confess their sins to the bishop,
but never confess their sins to God, never cry out to him. And they think that going in the
bishop's office and crying and dumping all their sins at the feet of the bishop somehow releases
them from from all of that. And they feel better about it for a while. But there's there's really
no long lasting, enduring power in in confessing to a priesthood leader. There's no forgiveness in that.
Confession should be to the Lord Jesus Christ, and that forgiveness comes from him. So anyway,
I just think that's a really important distinction for members and priesthood leaders to understand.
Yeah, but to be clear, there are things that in order to receive forgiveness from the church and
for obvious reasons for protection of the church and protection of innocent victims. And even in
the healing process, I know that Dave, when I've been through things, there needed to be things
that were imposed. Let's put it that there needed to be things that were imposed in order for me to
feel not for Heavenly Father to feel like he had forgiven me, not but for me to feel like I am back
on. There was a process that I needed to take, for example, that would put me back on the right
track. So we're not saying confession is not important. We're just saying that it may not be
it may not be as important for the reasons we've thought they were.
That depends on your motives. 100%. And when it comes to that, Scott,
really accountability and discipline are really important in the repentance process and definitely
a bishop, a priesthood leader, a parent or a spouse can help with those issues of accountability
and some discipline and to kind of help an individual. But when it comes to redemption,
when it comes to forgiveness, when it comes to a change of nature, that all has to be centered
in the Savior and His Atonement. Well, it's also important for us to remember that sometimes,
not sometimes, our priesthood leaders hold keys. And sometimes those keys can be extremely important
in terms of receiving revelation to help us to become closer to Him. And oftentimes, that message
and those communications can only be available, made available to us through the keys that are
held by our priesthood leaders sometimes. And those keys of priesthood help protect ordinances.
They help protect sacred, holy ordinances. So that's why we do that. We can talk more about
that too in more detail when we talk about the role of confession in repentance, which we'll
do later on. Well, let's maybe go to the third then. The third, what repentance is not, Elder
Anderson calls these detours. I called them when I was collaborating with him and trying to assist
him in writing the book. I actually called these myths, the myths of repentance, but he thought
that was a little strong, maybe too negative. So I love what he titled this chapter, the detours
on the road to repentance. And it's one of my favorite chapters in the book. But the third
detour then is, which will take us away from repentance, which kind of takes us around,
about way to get there, which is not appropriate, is to believe that repentance changes our behavior.
Now, I know. Well, do you mean that repentance is just changing behavior? So I know Elder
President Nelson has said, repentance is change. Yeah, I know that. I know that repentance leads
to a change of behavior. But repentance is not just stopping a behavior or a change of behavior.
Repentance is so much more than that, Scott. I mean, atheists can stop and change behaviors.
Right. Agnostics can. I mean, you don't even have to believe in God to change behavior.
It just by gritting your teeth and willpower and there's so many ways to change behavior.
But it's not redemptive. It's not redemptive. And if faith in Jesus Christ is not part of it,
then it's not truly repentance. And it doesn't lead to a change of nature, a change of heart.
That change of heart and that change of nature is what's changed through repentance. Now, sometimes
our behaviors will be affected because of our change of heart and change of nature. So that's
what's lacking in those. You said atheists can change behavior. Anybody can change behavior.
Even Christians can change behavior. But if it's not done because for the right reason,
with a heart single to the glory of God, for example, then it's really not even repentance.
Repentance then me as an ordained elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
if I have a behavior that I'm participating in and I stopped that behavior, have I repented,
not just because I've stopped that behavior, my heart and my my my communion, my attitude towards
and especially my covenant keeping ability needs to be intact through the spirit in order for that
to actually have been affected. Correct. It's not just stopping a behavior. So many people
think that repentance is to repent of an act or repent of a behavior. Repentance is so much
more than that should be seen to be much more than that. I mean, there's so many people, Scott, who
they try to stop a behavior and a sin of commission, an act or sin of commission,
while they continue to commit sins of omission. In other words, they try to overcome the
addiction of pornography while they continue to sin by not saying their prayers, by not reading
their scriptures, by not going to church, by not serving, magnifying their callings and doing
other things that they should be doing. It's hypocrisy, it's insanity to believe that you
can overcome an addiction or a sin if you continue to commit the sins of omission.
So I think that's one part. And I used to always say in my classes when I would teach this,
that this is really one of the keys to understanding repentance and to carrying it out, to enduring
in repentance. Stop repenting of a sin and start to repent of sinning. So many people get hung up
on a behavior or an act that they did that was wrong. Instead of seeing their whole life needs to be
changed, not just overcoming an addiction or stopping a certain behavior, their whole life
needs to be changed. So it's important to see repentance that way.
I think that because of the fall, right? Because of the fall, we are affected by all of these things
in all parts of our lives. And really repentance is an opportunity for us to negate the effects of
the fall in our lives by putting those behind us and turning more fully onto the Lord and Savior,
Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. But in order for us to do that, we can't compartmentalize. I think
Elder Uchtdorf called it my favorite sins. We can't hang on to those my favorite sins,
whether they be commission or omission type of sins or big sins, little sins. Now, I know we're
all sinners and I will send a day, you'll send a day, we all sin. We're never, we're never completely
free from sin. Right. However, in our lives, we need to see all of our life and not become so,
what's the word, not so distracted by one sin or so affixiated on one sin. Myopic.
That we can't see all the other things that we're missing to do in our life,
instead of just the things that we need to stop doing. So we need to ask ourselves,
what do I need to start doing? Not just what things do I need to stop doing.
Right. Right. Because it's that start doing that invites and invokes the spirit in our lives. It's
invocation and the invitation of the spirit in our lives that allows us to turn away from those
things that separate us from Heavenly Father and bring misery and heartache and dissonance and
everything else in our lives that we, that we deem uncomfortable because, you know, really in
this life, we are just trying to be comfortable. We're just trying to move forward with hope
and healing and happiness in our lives and in everybody's lives around us, where in
the understanding of this repentance process, where it is really just putting on the atonement
of Jesus Christ by through the administration of the Holy Spirit, that means that it's just an
all out effort in every aspect of our life to be more like Him. Well, and to help us all be
just a little more focused, laser focused. Right. We need to not just say, what do I need to stop
doing or what do I need to start doing? What we need to ask is in order to have the Holy Ghost
administer the atonement of Jesus Christ into my life, what do I need to stop doing? Right. And
what do I need to start doing? And really some of those things we need to start doing is using
the instruments of grace that He has already given us, like music, inspired music can help to
sanctify us. Prayer, the power of prayer, even in the midst of the worst sins, the power of prayer
can bless us and strengthen us. The power of the word. Oh my goodness. We could do a whole
another episode on the power of God's word and how I feel about that, the healing power of His word.
So we need to start doing the kinds of things that will help us to obtain the Spirit of the Lord
who will then administer the power, blessings, grace, mercy of the atonement of Jesus Christ
in our life. That's the third one. Yeah. That's an important one. And the fourth one is kind of a
duh. But it's important. But it really is important because what repentance is not,
yeah, repentance is not what saves us.
Repentance is not the redeeming. There's no power in repentance, God.
Yeah, exactly. There's no redemptive power in repentance. The power is in Jesus Christ and
His atonement. So many people just see that repentance as being the things that saves them. But that's
not what saves them. Jesus Christ, the person, our Savior, Redeemer, He's the one that saves us.
And repentance is the process of activating His power and the power of Jesus Christ in our life.
And that's why we keep saying in this podcast that the atonement doesn't even save us.
Right. The atonement doesn't save us. Repentance doesn't save us. If it's not connected to Jesus
Christ, then nothing can save us. All of His suffering can't save us. All of our efforts to
repent can't save us and our suffering. It's Jesus Christ who redeems us. It's through His atonement,
through His blood that we are saved and redeemed. Yeah, repentance just kind of turns the key in
the process to allow us to more fully access His power through repentance, through the atonement,
through all of those things. And so all of these things are just little keys that, and by little,
they're actually significant, but they are keys in comparison. They're little. They're just keys
that we turn to help us move in the process to put on the atonement of Jesus Christ and fill
His power in our lives. So many people try to repent over and over and over again of the same
sins that they commit over and over and over again, and they wonder why they can't change or where is
the power. Well, I believe, Scott, that without exception, the power is found in faith in the Lord
Jesus Christ, and a person who is repenting over and over and over again lacks the sufficient
faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or lacks the sufficient understanding of who He is, the role
He plays in their life, and what He did for us in our life. So I don't think that there's many
exceptions to this, maybe none, that if you are repenting over and over again of the same things,
it's because you're not, you don't understand this one truth, that the power, the power behind
repentance is our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that it is in Him and through Him that we
receive redemption, that we receive the power to change and the power to be healed and the power
to be forgiven. And I'm going to point our listeners back to episodes 14 and 15, specifically 15,
where we speak about the power of faith when we talk about the role that that power has
in this whole process. So go back to episodes 15, you can 14 too, we do talk about it a little bit
towards the end of that one, but 14 and 15, specifically 15 for more discussion around the
power of faith there. Well, so Scott, we've talked about what repentance is not, and we can begin
to talk about more about what it is, and I think we'll spend more time on this than we have time
today, but I think one of the things, before again, we start into the actual process of repentance,
we need to understand what it's not, and we need to understand the conditions of repentance, Scott.
That is a term, quote, conditions of repentance that is five times in the Book of Mormon.
And it really captured my attention, and I know Elder Anderson, I had an enlightening
discussion about that in one of our meetings, and I just think it's really important for
us to understand the conditions of repentance, and try to meet those conditions, try to do what's
necessary to receive the power to go through the repentance process, and how does it all begin,
how does it start? Well, that's called the conditions of repentance, and it begins,
I think the conditions of repentance, this is my conclusion, and this is in Elder Anderson's book.
In chapter 15, he calls them the three beloved friends we meet early on the road to repentance,
and that is, godly sorrow, and a broken heart, and a contrite spirit. I believe those are the,
quote, conditions of repentance that Book of Mormon prophets describe, and I just really think it's
important for us to, before we begin, to go through the repentance process, that we reach this point
in our life, no matter how small or large the sins that we commit may be, that we understand
the damaging effects of the sins, not only in our life, but in the lives of others, and the pain
that Christ suffered because of our sins. I know that's what, that's what brings me to a place,
and helps me to meet the conditions of repentance, is that when I understand
how it has affected my relationship with God, and how Jesus Christ, how much he suffered
for me because of my sins, no matter how small or large they are, he bled from every pore
that I might be able to return and live with him, and live in the presence of our Heavenly Father.
You know, one of the things that is often misconstrued, and I know I've done this,
I think all of us probably have at some point, but you know, we think of repentance sometimes as
just being an event, something that we just have to do, something I just need to get out of the way,
I've repented of that, I've repented of that, I've repented of that. Let's talk a little bit
about that. What about that? It's not an event, Dave. No, okay, so that's another thing, repentance
is not. We could talk about a lot of things, repentance is not, besides the four that are
in Elder Anderson's book, repentance is not an event, right? It should be an attitude,
it should be a way of life, it should be an ongoing process, not just an event, Scott. So I
think that's really a great point, and a really important perspective that we need to have.
Something else, Scott, that repentance is not, I've been thinking about lately in my own life,
in the lives of others that I know, I had someone recently say to me, a friend who has some real
challenges with sin is right now outside the church, you know, is not a member and is struggling and
trying to get back to where he needs to be, but anyway, and I love him and he's a good man,
but he kind of said to me something that just didn't feel right, and he said, well, as long as
I'm just repenting every day, and he said it so kind of casually and flippantly that I thought, wow,
okay, well, repentance isn't that, repentance is not just a reset button, repentance is not
something that we can just tell God we're sorry every day and move on and kind of think that it's
like a napkin and we can wipe it from our face and act like nothing happened and just move on.
Repentance is not a reset button. It's so much more than that. It is transformational. It should
be transformational in our life. It should, in fact, the Prophet Joseph Smith, I love the concept
of daily repentance, but that should be an attitude that should not just be an event in a prayer.
Joseph Smith said that daily repentance should not be casual, that it should not be something that
we, I think his words were, that we trifle with. Repentance can't be casual and it has to be more
transformational than I think some of us see it, and it will be if we center it in Jesus Christ.
Yeah, it's not actually real repentance if it's not transformational. I mean, that is, that's how
we know. That's how we know if we've repented. Transformation comes, even if it's a transformation
within and usually it is. That's how we know. We start, we begin to feel the Spirit. We feel it
more fully. We feel it more deeply. We feel guided and directed. We are able and have the ability to
hear and to respond to the promptings of the Spirit where before they may have been confusing
and at the very least and maybe even divisive or push us away from because of our own inability
to understand our Heavenly Father's true love for us. Well, transformational not only in our
behavior, but especially in our thoughts and our attitudes and our attitudes in our emotions.
How we see things, how we see others, how we see ourselves, how we see our relationships
with others and with our heavenly parents and Jesus Christ, all of that. It has to be completely
transformational in how we view the world and ourselves. So, so especially important when it
comes to our efforts to become more like Him. That's really important. It's really how we do it.
So again, before we spend another episode, which we'll do in the future on what repentance is,
I just think it's really important for us to understand what it means to meet the conditions
or to fulfill the conditions of repentance, Scott. And that includes getting this
broken heart and contrite spirit. And that's not comfortable. It's not easy. And I think that
the key to that is to really go back to Doctrine and Covenants section 6, verse 33.
Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not, fear not. Behold the wounds which pierced my side
and the prints of the nails in my hands and feet.
In order to really meet the conditions of repentance, Scott, I think we have to go there.
And it's kind of the third Nephi 11, chapter 11, verse 15 experience where he invites us to come
and fit, thrust our hand into his side, feel the prints of the nails in his hands and feet that
we might know that he's not only the savior of the world, but that he's our own personal savior.
And when an individual can go to Gethsemane and see Jesus suffering there, bleeding from every
pore laid out on the ground, as we've described in earlier episodes, and then follow him through
the mockery of a trial, see him slapped, see him spit upon, see him scourged, and then go to the
cross and stand at the foot of the cross and hear him cry out,
cry out, my father, my father, where art thou? And to make those statements that he makes
from the cross and to feel his love and to witness his sacrifice, that's for me, Scott,
what always brings the attitude of repentance in my life so that my heart is broken and my spirit
sufficiently contrite, that I have the desire, because of my gratitude for this, my savior,
my savior, that I have the desire to cry out to him. When we meet those conditions, the desire and
the process and the actions, attitudes of repentance just naturally follow.
Darrell Bock Yeah. I think that, you know, when we talk about broken heart and contrite spirit,
there are two phrases there, broken heart. And I think that, you know, that one's
a little easier for most of us to wrap our brains around. But when it comes to contrite spirit,
Dave, I think Elder Anderson in his book here just does a fantastic job to helping to make that
more clear, at least to help to make it more clear. And as Deb and I teach this each, each
Wednesday night to Institute class, BYU for Brigham Young University and University of
or Utah Valley University students at a YSA stake, that's one of the things that, you know, can be
a question or something of great discussion. What does it really mean to have a contrite spirit?
In the book, Elder Anderson talks about, and I'm paraphrasing, I'm not going to read it,
but I'm paraphrasing here, he talks about how having a contrite spirit is really nothing more
than the ability for us to have our Heavenly Fathers have our will swallowed up in our
Heavenly Fathers will. It's really just turning our will in our life over to the care of God,
as we understand him, which is nothing more than the third step and, you know,
Alcoholics Anonymous and the other recovery programs. And so, you know, any kind of transformational
change will be that through repentance. And even as Alcoholics and addicts are overcoming
their addictions and so forth, to understand that that contrite spirit, broken heart, we get that.
Broken heart means I can't, you know, I'm beat down, my life is a mess. I will never be able to
have his spirit in my life without taking some sort of action. And with in the absence of his
spirit in my life is the very reason that I experience all of the pain and turmoil and
all the rotten things that life affords me become because of that. That's broken heart. The contrite
spirit is how do I what do I do and what actions do I take and what actions do I stop taking that
will allow my will to be completely swallowed up in his as soon as my thoughts are his thoughts as
soon as my actions and my walking is 100% in accordance with his will for me. Then I have
come to know him, then I have fully come to him. But in the meantime, that process of allowing
that contrition, that contrite spirit to be a well to be alive and well in my life, I need to be
participating actively in making sure that I'm doing the things that allow me to allow my will
to be swallowed up in his. Amen to that, Scott. We haven't used the word obedience yet.
And I know that Elder Christopherson in describing broken heart and contrite spirit
talks about it's not only the sorrow for our sins, but it's also the desire to be obedient.
And to, as you say, have our have our will to lay our will on the altar of God and to offer
our obedience and our own personal sacrifice to him, not sacrifice for our sins, but
sacrificed of obedience. So I agree with what you just shared and look forward to describing in
in a future episode in more detail what repentance is. And so I'm thankful, Scott, for this opportunity
to to discuss the process that we call repentance and to contemplate the the power and the the
essence that forgiveness and grace and mercy that can flow into our life because of the blood
of Jesus Christ and his his gift that we call the atonement that he has offered us. And I'm
I'm so grateful for these things and grateful for the spirit that I always feel when I can learn
and when I can listen to others discuss it and and also for the opportunity, the the humble
blessing it is to be able to share it with others. So thank you to all of you and thank you, Scott,
for sharing this time. My sentiments exactly. This is a great opportunity, I think, for all of us
to reassess where we are to take a personal inventory and what it's like in my life. What am I doing
to prevent Heavenly Father Spirit to be in with me? What am I not doing that would allow it more?
Or what am I not doing that also keeps it away from me? So let's let's consider those things
this week as we consider what repentance is not. We look forward to talking about what
repentance is in upcoming podcasts. I think you'll find great healing and comfort in that as well.
It's been a great podcast. Thanks for being with us. Remember that always and in all things he can
and will be with you if we are putting on the Atonement of Jesus Christ through repentance,
through daily turning to him and daily turning away from those things that prevent him in our
lives. Thanks for being with us. Remember that he has redeemed you through his blood.
We love you. We know he does too. May you feel that always is our prayer. Thanks for being with us.