1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:23,040 Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope, 2 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:28,400 healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I'm Scott Durfey and it's 3 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,920 my pleasure to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, Brother David Durfey. 4 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:39,760 Good to be here. Thank you, Scott. Yeah, it's good to have you, Dave. Great week this week. We 5 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:48,080 just released a podcast from last week that we recorded with Brother Scott Harmon, 6 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,320 interview with Scott Harmon and that was a great one. We'll reference that one here again in just a 7 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,560 few minutes. But before we do that, I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've received 8 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,680 some great emails recently and we're doing our best to get to your questions and to incorporate 9 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:08,720 them in our discussion. So keep those coming. We can receive those at heredeemsusatgmail.com. 10 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:16,560 He redeems us at gmail.com. So Dave, like I said last week, it was a great experience to have yet 11 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:22,560 another interview with us. We had Brother Scott Harmon. Scott had spent, I think he said seven 12 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:29,680 years, right? Seven years in the Utah State Penitentiary for some things to pay back at debt to 13 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,480 society. We had prior to him a few weeks prior to that, we had Brother Nate Muller and man, 14 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,880 that was an amazing interview as well. Two great men, a lot of great things came from that. 15 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,800 They had a few things in common, right, Dave? Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about 16 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:53,840 those interviews quite a bit and it's both of them, it blessed my life. I've, uh, 17 00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:02,480 this past week's, it's, we did Scott most recently, I've been thinking about hard, concrete, prison 18 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:13,840 floors and about how so many fall down on those hard, concrete, prison floors. Got to happen to 19 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:23,120 be in solitary confinement and cry out to God. And you know, Scott, as I've thought about that this 20 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,360 past week, I thought, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a concrete floor in a prison in solitary 21 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:38,800 confinement or if it's in a closet or a wood floor or next to my bed on a carpet floor or 22 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:47,760 wherever it may be in the mountains on a dirt floor or wherever it may be, you know, ultimately, 23 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:57,440 Scott, this whole process of redemption and repentance and a relationship with Jesus Christ 24 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:07,360 and with our Heavenly Father comes down to crying out to him and confessing our inabilities, our 25 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:17,280 loneliness, our inadequacies and, uh, and just really offering our, our souls up to him. And so, 26 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:24,960 I, that's, that's, I think the part that really affected me and whether it was Scott or Nate, 27 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:31,920 Nate, I think did it in a car or, you know, in his crying out, doesn't matter where you are or 28 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:40,160 what your circumstances may be or, uh, we all need to do that. Prophets do that. When they pray, 29 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:48,640 they cry out. Uh, we all need to cry out and whenever I say those words, I always think of, uh, 30 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:58,800 uh, the brother of Jared crying out. I think of Enos crying out. I think of Amulek in, in, uh, 31 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:07,120 Alma 34 who says, cry out in the morning, cry out in the noon, cry out in the evening, 32 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:13,600 cry out in your fields, cry out in your closet, cry out, cry out, cry out and, 33 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:25,600 and, uh, Nate and Scott, uh, were, I think just great examples of that. And I hope that our listeners 34 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:35,280 and, and you and me, that we all, uh, are crying out to God on a regular basis and it's never a 35 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:43,920 one-time thing. Uh, I, I tried this morning to cry out to my Heavenly Father and some, some days 36 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:49,200 it's more effective than others. Yeah. I think that depends a lot of times on where we are. I think 37 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,960 the, uh, necessity of crying out was precipitated, uh, you know, for Scott and Nate, for example, 38 00:04:54,960 --> 00:05:00,720 out of some extreme circumstances. And it's not always necessary though that we go through those 39 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:06,640 extreme circumstances to facilitate and precipitate a crying out. I mean, I've had those extreme 40 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,280 experience experiences. I've, I've done that crying out as well. And it has been on multiple 41 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:17,280 occasions, you know, sometimes on a dirt floor up above Tempanuki, uh, right here behind Tempanogis 42 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:23,760 Mountain as my horse is tied to a tree or sometimes in a barn, uh, where the haze been building up for 43 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:30,400 50 years, the same one that you helped build as a teenager. Yeah. I painted that. I tried to sustain 44 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:36,080 that the first time. It's been painted multiple times since there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and, you 45 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,440 know, and a myriad of other places, you know, I've, I've had my crying out to, you know, where 46 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:48,320 there were, um, federal officials and the cement floor and those types of things as well. So I, 47 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,480 I think that that's important though, that we note that, that it doesn't need to come out of 48 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:58,400 extremity. We don't need that crying out to be because we have been beaten bloody. We can cry out 49 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:07,120 when things are just not quite right too. Yeah. And, um, in the future, we, we look forward to 50 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:15,760 having other individuals, uh, join us on the podcast. Um, I look forward to those, those 51 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:21,200 interviews and some of them will be, uh, in their extremities. They'll talk about their 52 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,040 extremities and sometimes it'll just maybe be, uh, members of the church who haven't, uh, had to go 53 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:34,000 through some of those, uh, difficult dramatic experiences, but have just did it daily. I, 54 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,080 I think you and I were talking a little bit this morning before we started this episode and, uh, 55 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:45,840 you know, if you cry out one time and have the miraculous event that, that I think Scott had 56 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:53,440 in solitary confinement or you may cry out in your bedroom kneeling at your bed for dozens of 57 00:06:53,440 --> 00:07:02,080 times and, and it can be just as effective. Uh, whatever it takes, but the bottom line, I guess, 58 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:12,160 is Scott is that we all need to come to a point in our life where we know we are heavenly fathers 59 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:21,120 children, that he is our father, that he loves us, that he's not mad at us, that he knew we would 60 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:29,040 sin. He's not shocked or surprised or angry, that he wants to help us and we cry out to him, 61 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:40,160 expressing our, our broken heart, contrite spirit and, and pleading for his help and thanking him 62 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:48,640 in the depths of our soul for the plan of redemption and his son and for the shedding of his blood. 63 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:57,600 I mean, those are the, just the elementary common elements of Scott and Nate and you and me and 64 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:05,600 all of us that we have to experience to, to really experience redemption through his blood. 65 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,400 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's no question. You know, we had some great patterns and some great 66 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:17,120 teachers of that throughout scripture. We've seen it beginning back as early as Adam and Eve and all 67 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:23,040 through, all through from the beginning of time until up until the name, including now. And, you 68 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:29,760 know, I, and it's our invitation. If you're not crying out as our listeners, find reason and find 69 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,840 occasion and make that occasion and experience that because, you know, as we talk about putting on the 70 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:41,760 Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is the, the, really the principal purpose behind this podcast 71 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,040 is to help us to all come unto him more fully. But in order for us to do that, that's really an 72 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:53,920 important component and element of that experience, Dave. Yeah. Hey, one, one other, did you have 73 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,440 something else you wanted to add to that? Well, share what you kind of said. Yeah, that's what I 74 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:04,160 was going to do. I noticed one thing, but let me ask you this, Dave, do you have a primary song or a 75 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:12,080 hymn that motivates you that or are there a bunch of them or? Well, I, I know the power of music, 76 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:20,960 Scott. Yeah. In our life. And it is a instrument of grace. It can administer the spirit in, in our 77 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:31,280 life for sure. And yes, I have a few and Jesus, the very thought of the hymn number, I think it's 78 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:38,960 141. More holiness, give me. Yeah, I love that one too. There's this, there's this little section 79 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:50,400 in the hymn book between the 130s and 140s that just really put me in a, a contrite, sweet, humble 80 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:59,040 spirit and just I really feel connect me through the Holy Spirit to my, to my Heavenly Father. 81 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,640 And, and those, those hymns can really express the desires of my heart. They do that for me too. I 82 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:11,520 remember and you will too, as we were both growing up once a month on a Sunday or a Monday, we would 83 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,200 meet at your house, Grandma and Grandpa's house as a big family. And we do have a big family and, 84 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:25,360 and I, and the song, the hymn, there's beauty all around must ring in your heart like it does in mine 85 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:32,240 and bring back some sweet, sweet, sweet spiritual experiences. Well, Scott and Nate both and they're 86 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:38,560 it unsolicited. They didn't, I don't think Scott was able to listen to Nate's. It's interesting how 87 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:45,280 these two themes came up early, early on for both of them. But for Nate, he said that he 88 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:50,160 remembered a primary song, I am a child of God. And he said, and I just kept hearing that over 89 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,560 and over. And you know, and I'm, I'm paraphrasing, obviously I'm not quoting exactly what he said, 90 00:10:54,560 --> 00:11:01,440 but I kept hearing over and over and over that refrain sweetly echoing in my mind that I am a 91 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,800 child of God. Well, if I'm a child of God, then there must be something worth living for. And it 92 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:14,320 changed him. Scott's was a child's prayer. Heavenly Father, are you really there? You know, 93 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:20,960 something like that. The words were right. The words were right. The tone was way off. But, 94 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:27,360 but you know, hopefully I didn't just chase the spirit away from that one, because that was 95 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,520 what, you know, really helped Scott, you know, he wanted to know Heavenly Father, are you really 96 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:37,520 there? Do you really hear my prayer? And he got confirmation that indeed he did. And, you know, 97 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:43,760 so I guess the message behind that is we get emails, we get questions from people we know, 98 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,600 how do we help our children? How do we help our kids? And you know, sometimes the ways that we're 99 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,080 able to help our children to help those that are younger that are coming up and it doesn't have 100 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:01,520 to be primary age, it can be any age, but to let them experience the programs and the spirit that 101 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:08,000 comes through the programs like primary, like young men's young women's to encourage attendance and 102 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:14,880 participation and not to just be there, but to be there and feel there, be feel what you're feeling 103 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:22,960 there. You never know when a little song like I am a child of God might totally capitulate a person's 104 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:29,040 trajectory in their life for the better. And so keep that in mind parents and adults as we're 105 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:35,840 raising our kids that there's just huge power in those kinds of things. Well, even though neither 106 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:42,960 one of us can really carry a tune, I think it's really important for all of us to use the power 107 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:49,680 of music in our homes, to sing individually, right, maybe sing in the car, to maybe sing when 108 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:55,200 we're out in the open. More holiness give me affects me so much because as a young man preparing 109 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:01,280 to go on a mission down where we used to deer hunt down the park or mountain, I went down there all 110 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:10,400 alone and on the top of a mountain with a little pocket hymn book and scriptures in hand, I just 111 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:18,080 belted out more holiness give me and was just flooded by the spirit in my life to strive to 112 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:24,880 be a better person. I think we can use that in our homes in our in our in connection with come 113 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:31,680 follow me. We should sing maybe once in a while we should sing in family home evenings with our 114 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:40,640 families we should play recorded music in our homes, especially on the Sabbath and probably 115 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:48,720 every other day of the week. But but Scott when I became a patriarch and I was an ordained patriarch 116 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:59,520 giving blessings, the music was a powerful part of my preparation to connect with the spirit 117 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:09,600 and to be able to to give blessings. I felt as though that music would open up the windows of 118 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:17,920 heaven for me in my little office as I listened to some of my favorite hymns and sacred music. 119 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:27,600 So yeah, I think Nate and and Scott were both examples of that, but we could all do just a 120 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:35,920 little bit better using music as I call it an instrument of grace to bring grace and spirit 121 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:42,160 into our lives and into our homes. Yeah, there's no question. One that stands out to me and I'll end 122 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:48,720 and transition with this one. But may my soul commune with thee, you know, Deb, my wife and I 123 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:55,840 and I both for whatever reason, that's just kind of been one that when I'm feeling a little disconnected 124 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,600 if I can just even hear the words or the tune of that song in my mind even it seems to have a 125 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:08,400 recentering effect that brings me right back or or maybe it doesn't bring me completely right back, 126 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:14,480 but it definitely puts me on the trajectory to do so. And I think that there's just huge power. 127 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,880 There's so much power in that that, you know, there's a reason, you know, we know that Psalms 128 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:27,120 was the hymn book of old Israel, right? And you know, and so if they're in scripture there, 129 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:33,840 they've got to be important to us. Anyway, yeah, hymns according to Dr. incumbent section 25, 130 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:40,560 we learn how important they are to the Lord that they are hymn is a prayer of righteousness. 131 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:48,400 And I think there's a connection between listening to inspired music and crying out to God. I found 132 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:56,560 that listening to music would prepare me to cry out to God. So anyway, some common elements from 133 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,440 those two interviews and I hope that they've blessed the lives of our listeners the way they 134 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:10,960 blessed my life. And I think they have. I know that there's it's just really difficult to not feel 135 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:17,440 an inspiration and inspired not to feel inspired, not to feel motivated, but mostly not to feel a 136 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,400 touch of the spirit to communing and testifying to us of the truthfulness of the things that we 137 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:28,640 hear when we hear them like we did with those two gentlemen. So we want to just again, thank Scott 138 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,040 Harmon and Nate Mueller for being with us. We look forward to doing many more in the future. 139 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,000 Again, as Dave mentioned, a similar type and maybe even some that are going to be 140 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:44,960 significantly different in nature. We're looking forward to that day before Scott, our last episode 141 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,920 where we really focused on the content of the things that we're talking about specifically, 142 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,480 repentance and forgiveness to help us put on the atonement of Jesus Christ. We were talking about 143 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,200 we had began our discussion around repentance. And as part of that discussion around repentance, 144 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:05,520 we talked about two things. I think that you you you say it well, I heard you actually in a pot 145 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,760 another podcast and we can give that podcast a shout out right now. But another it's called 146 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:19,360 leading saints, leading saints find that podcast leading saints. I don't remember specifically 147 00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:26,240 the podcast number the day was on, but it was released on July 25th or thereabouts, did a great 148 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:32,400 kind of a summary, a distillation, if you will, of all of the things that we talk about in as part 149 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,840 of this podcast and did it all in kind of just one there was a great podcast for those of you who 150 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:43,760 are leaders in the church and for those of you who are not either way that program that brother 151 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,720 Frank him has going over there is just a really a great podcast and something that you should 152 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,840 engage in. But Dave, one of the things that as I was listening to you, and I've heard you say this 153 00:17:53,840 --> 00:18:00,160 before, as you begin to describe repentance, you say sometimes the best way to describe something 154 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:06,560 and to tell us what it is is to actually explore what it is not. Because especially when it comes 155 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:12,320 to a concept like repentance and especially growing up in a culture and in a in a norm where, 156 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:19,200 you know, we have certain things that have been indelibly imprinted on our minds about what repentance 157 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,440 means. And some of that comes from the tradition of our fathers, some of that comes from the 158 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,120 tradition even of their fathers dating back to Protestant and you know the Reformation and 159 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:34,960 even Catholicism and and how all of those things have come through in terms of attitude, not doctrine, 160 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:42,080 but in terms of attitude towards repentance. And it's no wonder that so much of our attitude 161 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:48,160 has been towards repentance in ways that may not just be 100% accurate. And so I think it is 162 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:55,840 a really good exercise, as you mentioned, as you put forth, that we describe what repentance is not. 163 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:02,560 And so we first talked about how repentance is not a checklist or excuse me, first we talked about 164 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:09,360 how repentance is not punishment for sin. Yeah, Scott, you know, I learned that that method of 165 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:15,360 first describing what something is not before you describe what it is from Elder Theodore Burton 166 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:23,280 many, many years ago in his training when I was at the missionary training center in the talk that 167 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:32,240 he gave at the BYU many, many years ago, powerful, powerful general authority. Anyway, I have come 168 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:40,800 to really witness that, that to really understand what something is, you have to first understand 169 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:53,920 what it's not. And repentance is not punishment, penalty, or payment for sin. I just, we can't 170 00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:04,320 say that strong enough. And Dr. Incovenants section 19 verse 4, it says basically, repent or suffer. 171 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:15,600 So what's the opposite of repenting? Suffering. Suffering. And repentance, in, in repentance, 172 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:21,040 President Kimball said this, I'm, I'm, I'm repeating a little bit what we said in the previous podcast, 173 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:29,200 but rep, repentance may include some suffering, but the suffering is not caused by repentance. 174 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:36,480 The suffering is always caused by the sin. And I think that distinction is critical 175 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:43,360 so that people don't fear repentance. They should be fearing sin. Repentance is the, 176 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:48,880 the release of that, getting that out. It's the great analogy in Elder Anderson's book was the 177 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:57,520 individual with cancer. Okay, so if we, if we have cancer, spiritual or physical, we may need to go 178 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,560 see a doctor, we may need to go to the hospital, there may even need to be, be surgery or some 179 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:12,640 consequences. But the pain is not caused by the doctor or the hospital or the process of healing. 180 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:19,200 The pain is caused by the cancer or by the sin in the case of repentance. 181 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,360 Right. And then we moved into repentance is not simply a checklist. 182 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:35,040 It's not a checklist. I really love how Elder Anderson sweetly recognized that some people 183 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,960 need a checklist. Yeah. 184 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:43,440 And the problem with previous checklists when repentance has been taught is that 185 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:50,080 rely on your redeemer was never one of the Rs that ever got mentioned. They'd give you three Rs, 186 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:57,760 five Rs, seven Rs, eight Rs, whatever. But I love how Elder Anderson in his book gave it, 187 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:03,280 individuals who need a checklist, he gave them one and it's focused in Jesus Christ. And I'd 188 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,960 like to just share this. He said, you know, some of you may need a checklist. So here's, 189 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,920 here's how we might include the Savior's name in the five Rs of repentance. 190 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:19,440 Recognize that what I have done wrong has offended Jesus Christ. 191 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:28,000 To fill remorse that my actions have offended God and cause Jesus Christ to suffer 192 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:34,640 and cause suffering to God's children. So this, this is an important one goes back to the kind 193 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,120 of the first one. It's got it's important to know that Christ is the one who suffered 194 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:47,040 for our sins so that we don't have to. Yeah. There may be suffering in sin, but not in the 195 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:54,800 repentance process because Christ suffered for all of that. Three resolve to change my behavior 196 00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:01,440 realizing that my own willpower is not enough without the help of Jesus Christ. I am powerless 197 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:07,440 to repent. So let me push pause for Anya for just a second right there. There's a, that my own will 198 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:15,040 power is not enough. So often Dave, we believe and I've believed this myself that I need to do 199 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,480 all my willpower everything and then when I can anymore, that's when I need to turn to him. 200 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,880 Well, this comes, that will come into play, especially when we get into the third what 201 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:33,360 repentance is not. So amen. Yeah. And we'll let's let's expand on that in just a moment. 202 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Number four, reform, change, repent, appealing for the grace of Jesus Christ, His mercy and His 203 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:49,520 power to help me never repent the, repeat the offense. And number five, make restitution to 204 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,520 those I have hurt and offended most importantly to the savior who suffered the pains of all 205 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:05,040 in this way. I am repenting. So then he says this, which I, which I love. It's, it's critical. 206 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:12,880 There's one more R that brings light to our respective perspective on how to see repentance. 207 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:21,280 Relie on the redeemer. The five hours come alive when they are centered in Jesus Christ. 208 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:27,120 So if you need a checklist, there you are. But the problem with a checklist and the reason I like 209 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:33,680 to say that repentance is not a checklist is because so many times Jesus isn't the center of that. 210 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:40,560 And it's kind of just like, okay, it's a, it's a to do list and, and we check it all off. We go 211 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,840 through it and we're, we feel good about checking off these boxes, but we get to the end of it, 212 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,960 Scott. And we never feel forgiven. And then we can't understand why we don't feel forgiven. 213 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,960 And the reason we don't feel forgiven or the reason there isn't some permanent change of 214 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:03,440 nature in our life is because Jesus Christ has never been really a part of it or let alone the 215 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,840 center of it. Yeah, that's right. In fact, somewhere in the book too, and it's in the same 216 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:14,000 chapter, he talks about an experience that Elder Bednar had. Elder Bednar was talking to a bishop 217 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,320 at BYU Idaho. I was going to say Rick's College because that's what it was when I went there. 218 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,680 But BYU Idaho, and he said that he had had a young woman come in there. Do you want to 219 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,480 tell it? You can tell it better than I can because you know you tell it. So he had a young woman come 220 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,520 in to this bishop and this young woman had, you know, participated in some things that would 221 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:42,880 cause her to not be temple worthy. Let's put it that way. That very weekend and as she had visited 222 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:50,080 with her bishop, she, when it was complete or done, when the visit was over, it wasn't complete. 223 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,880 But when the visit was over, she said something to the effect was, well, that was the last thing 224 00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,000 on my checklist. My goodness, I feel better. I feel so much better now. I feel so much better now. 225 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:07,360 Right. Yeah. And what was Elder Bednar's response to that? 226 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:12,560 Well, actually, he was talking to mission presidents, trying to train mission presidents 227 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:22,560 on what repentance is and what it's not. And he in essence said, repentance is not confession. 228 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,880 So there's another thing that repentance is not. Now, I believe confession is an important, 229 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:35,440 critical part of our repentance. But it's the why we do the confession. And we'll get to that. 230 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,480 But it's the why the confession is done that's important, not the confession in and of itself. 231 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:48,960 And the confession to who? Exactly. You know, so many people confess their sins to the bishop, 232 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:55,360 but never confess their sins to God, never cry out to him. And they think that going in the 233 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:02,800 bishop's office and crying and dumping all their sins at the feet of the bishop somehow releases 234 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,800 them from from all of that. And they feel better about it for a while. But there's there's really 235 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:18,160 no long lasting, enduring power in in confessing to a priesthood leader. There's no forgiveness in that. 236 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:28,560 Confession should be to the Lord Jesus Christ, and that forgiveness comes from him. So anyway, 237 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,600 I just think that's a really important distinction for members and priesthood leaders to understand. 238 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:39,600 Yeah, but to be clear, there are things that in order to receive forgiveness from the church and 239 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,040 for obvious reasons for protection of the church and protection of innocent victims. And even in 240 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,320 the healing process, I know that Dave, when I've been through things, there needed to be things 241 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:58,320 that were imposed. Let's put it that there needed to be things that were imposed in order for me to 242 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:05,840 feel not for Heavenly Father to feel like he had forgiven me, not but for me to feel like I am back 243 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,400 on. There was a process that I needed to take, for example, that would put me back on the right 244 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,440 track. So we're not saying confession is not important. We're just saying that it may not be 245 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,880 it may not be as important for the reasons we've thought they were. 246 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,280 That depends on your motives. 100%. And when it comes to that, Scott, 247 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:32,080 really accountability and discipline are really important in the repentance process and definitely 248 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:41,680 a bishop, a priesthood leader, a parent or a spouse can help with those issues of accountability 249 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:47,360 and some discipline and to kind of help an individual. But when it comes to redemption, 250 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:53,040 when it comes to forgiveness, when it comes to a change of nature, that all has to be centered 251 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,800 in the Savior and His Atonement. Well, it's also important for us to remember that sometimes, 252 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,920 not sometimes, our priesthood leaders hold keys. And sometimes those keys can be extremely important 253 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:10,080 in terms of receiving revelation to help us to become closer to Him. And oftentimes, that message 254 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:16,240 and those communications can only be available, made available to us through the keys that are 255 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:21,280 held by our priesthood leaders sometimes. And those keys of priesthood help protect ordinances. 256 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:31,120 They help protect sacred, holy ordinances. So that's why we do that. We can talk more about 257 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:37,440 that too in more detail when we talk about the role of confession in repentance, which we'll 258 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:46,400 do later on. Well, let's maybe go to the third then. The third, what repentance is not, Elder 259 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:53,680 Anderson calls these detours. I called them when I was collaborating with him and trying to assist 260 00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:01,200 him in writing the book. I actually called these myths, the myths of repentance, but he thought 261 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:08,800 that was a little strong, maybe too negative. So I love what he titled this chapter, the detours 262 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,720 on the road to repentance. And it's one of my favorite chapters in the book. But the third 263 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:22,640 detour then is, which will take us away from repentance, which kind of takes us around, 264 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:29,280 about way to get there, which is not appropriate, is to believe that repentance changes our behavior. 265 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:36,960 Now, I know. Well, do you mean that repentance is just changing behavior? So I know Elder 266 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:44,240 President Nelson has said, repentance is change. Yeah, I know that. I know that repentance leads 267 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:54,480 to a change of behavior. But repentance is not just stopping a behavior or a change of behavior. 268 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,680 Repentance is so much more than that, Scott. I mean, atheists can stop and change behaviors. 269 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,840 Right. Agnostics can. I mean, you don't even have to believe in God to change behavior. 270 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:15,600 It just by gritting your teeth and willpower and there's so many ways to change behavior. 271 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:23,840 But it's not redemptive. It's not redemptive. And if faith in Jesus Christ is not part of it, 272 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:34,080 then it's not truly repentance. And it doesn't lead to a change of nature, a change of heart. 273 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,760 That change of heart and that change of nature is what's changed through repentance. Now, sometimes 274 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,400 our behaviors will be affected because of our change of heart and change of nature. So that's 275 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,080 what's lacking in those. You said atheists can change behavior. Anybody can change behavior. 276 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,960 Even Christians can change behavior. But if it's not done because for the right reason, 277 00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,160 with a heart single to the glory of God, for example, then it's really not even repentance. 278 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:06,800 Repentance then me as an ordained elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 279 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:14,480 if I have a behavior that I'm participating in and I stopped that behavior, have I repented, 280 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:21,680 not just because I've stopped that behavior, my heart and my my my communion, my attitude towards 281 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:28,320 and especially my covenant keeping ability needs to be intact through the spirit in order for that 282 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:34,960 to actually have been affected. Correct. It's not just stopping a behavior. So many people 283 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:45,120 think that repentance is to repent of an act or repent of a behavior. Repentance is so much 284 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:51,600 more than that should be seen to be much more than that. I mean, there's so many people, Scott, who 285 00:32:51,600 --> 00:33:03,360 they try to stop a behavior and a sin of commission, an act or sin of commission, 286 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:10,080 while they continue to commit sins of omission. In other words, they try to overcome the 287 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:18,080 addiction of pornography while they continue to sin by not saying their prayers, by not reading 288 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:24,800 their scriptures, by not going to church, by not serving, magnifying their callings and doing 289 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:32,560 other things that they should be doing. It's hypocrisy, it's insanity to believe that you 290 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:40,800 can overcome an addiction or a sin if you continue to commit the sins of omission. 291 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,680 So I think that's one part. And I used to always say in my classes when I would teach this, 292 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:54,240 that this is really one of the keys to understanding repentance and to carrying it out, to enduring 293 00:33:54,240 --> 00:34:07,040 in repentance. Stop repenting of a sin and start to repent of sinning. So many people get hung up 294 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:15,680 on a behavior or an act that they did that was wrong. Instead of seeing their whole life needs to be 295 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:23,760 changed, not just overcoming an addiction or stopping a certain behavior, their whole life 296 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:29,440 needs to be changed. So it's important to see repentance that way. 297 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:35,600 I think that because of the fall, right? Because of the fall, we are affected by all of these things 298 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:42,720 in all parts of our lives. And really repentance is an opportunity for us to negate the effects of 299 00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:47,840 the fall in our lives by putting those behind us and turning more fully onto the Lord and Savior, 300 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:53,920 Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. But in order for us to do that, we can't compartmentalize. I think 301 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,680 Elder Uchtdorf called it my favorite sins. We can't hang on to those my favorite sins, 302 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:06,400 whether they be commission or omission type of sins or big sins, little sins. Now, I know we're 303 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:12,400 all sinners and I will send a day, you'll send a day, we all sin. We're never, we're never completely 304 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:21,120 free from sin. Right. However, in our lives, we need to see all of our life and not become so, 305 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:33,840 what's the word, not so distracted by one sin or so affixiated on one sin. Myopic. 306 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:40,560 That we can't see all the other things that we're missing to do in our life, 307 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,120 instead of just the things that we need to stop doing. So we need to ask ourselves, 308 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:50,320 what do I need to start doing? Not just what things do I need to stop doing. 309 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,320 Right. Right. Because it's that start doing that invites and invokes the spirit in our lives. It's 310 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:04,800 invocation and the invitation of the spirit in our lives that allows us to turn away from those 311 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:13,360 things that separate us from Heavenly Father and bring misery and heartache and dissonance and 312 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,400 everything else in our lives that we, that we deem uncomfortable because, you know, really in 313 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,680 this life, we are just trying to be comfortable. We're just trying to move forward with hope 314 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,800 and healing and happiness in our lives and in everybody's lives around us, where in 315 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:36,080 the understanding of this repentance process, where it is really just putting on the atonement 316 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:43,360 of Jesus Christ by through the administration of the Holy Spirit, that means that it's just an 317 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:51,280 all out effort in every aspect of our life to be more like Him. Well, and to help us all be 318 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:57,440 just a little more focused, laser focused. Right. We need to not just say, what do I need to stop 319 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:03,600 doing or what do I need to start doing? What we need to ask is in order to have the Holy Ghost 320 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:12,160 administer the atonement of Jesus Christ into my life, what do I need to stop doing? Right. And 321 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:19,600 what do I need to start doing? And really some of those things we need to start doing is using 322 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:29,680 the instruments of grace that He has already given us, like music, inspired music can help to 323 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:38,000 sanctify us. Prayer, the power of prayer, even in the midst of the worst sins, the power of prayer 324 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:44,240 can bless us and strengthen us. The power of the word. Oh my goodness. We could do a whole 325 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:53,360 another episode on the power of God's word and how I feel about that, the healing power of His word. 326 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:02,320 So we need to start doing the kinds of things that will help us to obtain the Spirit of the Lord 327 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:10,400 who will then administer the power, blessings, grace, mercy of the atonement of Jesus Christ 328 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:19,040 in our life. That's the third one. Yeah. That's an important one. And the fourth one is kind of a 329 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:27,680 duh. But it's important. But it really is important because what repentance is not, 330 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,320 yeah, repentance is not what saves us. 331 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,760 Repentance is not the redeeming. There's no power in repentance, God. 332 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:47,680 Yeah, exactly. There's no redemptive power in repentance. The power is in Jesus Christ and 333 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:58,320 His atonement. So many people just see that repentance as being the things that saves them. But that's 334 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:07,280 not what saves them. Jesus Christ, the person, our Savior, Redeemer, He's the one that saves us. 335 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:16,480 And repentance is the process of activating His power and the power of Jesus Christ in our life. 336 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:23,120 And that's why we keep saying in this podcast that the atonement doesn't even save us. 337 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:29,840 Right. The atonement doesn't save us. Repentance doesn't save us. If it's not connected to Jesus 338 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:37,360 Christ, then nothing can save us. All of His suffering can't save us. All of our efforts to 339 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:47,600 repent can't save us and our suffering. It's Jesus Christ who redeems us. It's through His atonement, 340 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,360 through His blood that we are saved and redeemed. Yeah, repentance just kind of turns the key in 341 00:39:53,360 --> 00:40:00,560 the process to allow us to more fully access His power through repentance, through the atonement, 342 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,160 through all of those things. And so all of these things are just little keys that, and by little, 343 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,280 they're actually significant, but they are keys in comparison. They're little. They're just keys 344 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:17,360 that we turn to help us move in the process to put on the atonement of Jesus Christ and fill 345 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:27,120 His power in our lives. So many people try to repent over and over and over again of the same 346 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:35,600 sins that they commit over and over and over again, and they wonder why they can't change or where is 347 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:47,040 the power. Well, I believe, Scott, that without exception, the power is found in faith in the Lord 348 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Jesus Christ, and a person who is repenting over and over and over again lacks the sufficient 349 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:06,000 faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or lacks the sufficient understanding of who He is, the role 350 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:16,720 He plays in their life, and what He did for us in our life. So I don't think that there's many 351 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:23,520 exceptions to this, maybe none, that if you are repenting over and over again of the same things, 352 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:30,800 it's because you're not, you don't understand this one truth, that the power, the power behind 353 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:41,520 repentance is our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that it is in Him and through Him that we 354 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:49,680 receive redemption, that we receive the power to change and the power to be healed and the power 355 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:55,440 to be forgiven. And I'm going to point our listeners back to episodes 14 and 15, specifically 15, 356 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:01,600 where we speak about the power of faith when we talk about the role that that power has 357 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:08,560 in this whole process. So go back to episodes 15, you can 14 too, we do talk about it a little bit 358 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:14,000 towards the end of that one, but 14 and 15, specifically 15 for more discussion around the 359 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:23,520 power of faith there. Well, so Scott, we've talked about what repentance is not, and we can begin 360 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:31,360 to talk about more about what it is, and I think we'll spend more time on this than we have time 361 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:39,840 today, but I think one of the things, before again, we start into the actual process of repentance, 362 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,200 we need to understand what it's not, and we need to understand the conditions of repentance, Scott. 363 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:54,560 That is a term, quote, conditions of repentance that is five times in the Book of Mormon. 364 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:01,360 And it really captured my attention, and I know Elder Anderson, I had an enlightening 365 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:08,480 discussion about that in one of our meetings, and I just think it's really important for 366 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:20,320 us to understand the conditions of repentance, and try to meet those conditions, try to do what's 367 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:28,000 necessary to receive the power to go through the repentance process, and how does it all begin, 368 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:34,720 how does it start? Well, that's called the conditions of repentance, and it begins, 369 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:41,200 I think the conditions of repentance, this is my conclusion, and this is in Elder Anderson's book. 370 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,320 In chapter 15, he calls them the three beloved friends we meet early on the road to repentance, 371 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:58,480 and that is, godly sorrow, and a broken heart, and a contrite spirit. I believe those are the, 372 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:06,000 quote, conditions of repentance that Book of Mormon prophets describe, and I just really think it's 373 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:16,480 important for us to, before we begin, to go through the repentance process, that we reach this point 374 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:25,200 in our life, no matter how small or large the sins that we commit may be, that we understand 375 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:36,160 the damaging effects of the sins, not only in our life, but in the lives of others, and the pain 376 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:45,440 that Christ suffered because of our sins. I know that's what, that's what brings me to a place, 377 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,320 and helps me to meet the conditions of repentance, is that when I understand 378 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:59,840 how it has affected my relationship with God, and how Jesus Christ, how much he suffered 379 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:08,800 for me because of my sins, no matter how small or large they are, he bled from every pore 380 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:16,560 that I might be able to return and live with him, and live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. 381 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:22,400 You know, one of the things that is often misconstrued, and I know I've done this, 382 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,160 I think all of us probably have at some point, but you know, we think of repentance sometimes as 383 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:34,080 just being an event, something that we just have to do, something I just need to get out of the way, 384 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,480 I've repented of that, I've repented of that, I've repented of that. Let's talk a little bit 385 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,560 about that. What about that? It's not an event, Dave. No, okay, so that's another thing, repentance 386 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:50,320 is not. We could talk about a lot of things, repentance is not, besides the four that are 387 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:56,640 in Elder Anderson's book, repentance is not an event, right? It should be an attitude, 388 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:04,880 it should be a way of life, it should be an ongoing process, not just an event, Scott. So I 389 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:10,800 think that's really a great point, and a really important perspective that we need to have. 390 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:18,080 Something else, Scott, that repentance is not, I've been thinking about lately in my own life, 391 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:30,080 in the lives of others that I know, I had someone recently say to me, a friend who has some real 392 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:38,480 challenges with sin is right now outside the church, you know, is not a member and is struggling and 393 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,640 trying to get back to where he needs to be, but anyway, and I love him and he's a good man, 394 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:52,720 but he kind of said to me something that just didn't feel right, and he said, well, as long as 395 00:46:52,720 --> 00:47:01,760 I'm just repenting every day, and he said it so kind of casually and flippantly that I thought, wow, 396 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:09,440 okay, well, repentance isn't that, repentance is not just a reset button, repentance is not 397 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:18,400 something that we can just tell God we're sorry every day and move on and kind of think that it's 398 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:27,520 like a napkin and we can wipe it from our face and act like nothing happened and just move on. 399 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:34,160 Repentance is not a reset button. It's so much more than that. It is transformational. It should 400 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:39,920 be transformational in our life. It should, in fact, the Prophet Joseph Smith, I love the concept 401 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:49,760 of daily repentance, but that should be an attitude that should not just be an event in a prayer. 402 00:47:49,760 --> 00:48:00,640 Joseph Smith said that daily repentance should not be casual, that it should not be something that 403 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:10,640 we, I think his words were, that we trifle with. Repentance can't be casual and it has to be more 404 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:18,480 transformational than I think some of us see it, and it will be if we center it in Jesus Christ. 405 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,480 Yeah, it's not actually real repentance if it's not transformational. I mean, that is, that's how 406 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:30,480 we know. That's how we know if we've repented. Transformation comes, even if it's a transformation 407 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:35,840 within and usually it is. That's how we know. We start, we begin to feel the Spirit. We feel it 408 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:42,880 more fully. We feel it more deeply. We feel guided and directed. We are able and have the ability to 409 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:49,280 hear and to respond to the promptings of the Spirit where before they may have been confusing 410 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:59,440 and at the very least and maybe even divisive or push us away from because of our own inability 411 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,560 to understand our Heavenly Father's true love for us. Well, transformational not only in our 412 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:13,840 behavior, but especially in our thoughts and our attitudes and our attitudes in our emotions. 413 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:25,280 How we see things, how we see others, how we see ourselves, how we see our relationships 414 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:33,920 with others and with our heavenly parents and Jesus Christ, all of that. It has to be completely 415 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:41,920 transformational in how we view the world and ourselves. So, so especially important when it 416 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:47,280 comes to our efforts to become more like Him. That's really important. It's really how we do it. 417 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:54,400 So again, before we spend another episode, which we'll do in the future on what repentance is, 418 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:01,200 I just think it's really important for us to understand what it means to meet the conditions 419 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:09,040 or to fulfill the conditions of repentance, Scott. And that includes getting this 420 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:21,600 broken heart and contrite spirit. And that's not comfortable. It's not easy. And I think that 421 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:28,400 the key to that is to really go back to Doctrine and Covenants section 6, verse 33. 422 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:40,640 Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not, fear not. Behold the wounds which pierced my side 423 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,000 and the prints of the nails in my hands and feet. 424 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,840 In order to really meet the conditions of repentance, Scott, I think we have to go there. 425 00:50:53,840 --> 00:51:00,480 And it's kind of the third Nephi 11, chapter 11, verse 15 experience where he invites us to come 426 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:05,600 and fit, thrust our hand into his side, feel the prints of the nails in his hands and feet that 427 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:11,760 we might know that he's not only the savior of the world, but that he's our own personal savior. 428 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:20,160 And when an individual can go to Gethsemane and see Jesus suffering there, bleeding from every 429 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:28,800 pore laid out on the ground, as we've described in earlier episodes, and then follow him through 430 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:38,960 the mockery of a trial, see him slapped, see him spit upon, see him scourged, and then go to the 431 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:44,080 cross and stand at the foot of the cross and hear him cry out, 432 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:57,760 cry out, my father, my father, where art thou? And to make those statements that he makes 433 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:05,520 from the cross and to feel his love and to witness his sacrifice, that's for me, Scott, 434 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:16,320 what always brings the attitude of repentance in my life so that my heart is broken and my spirit 435 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:27,040 sufficiently contrite, that I have the desire, because of my gratitude for this, my savior, 436 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:35,920 my savior, that I have the desire to cry out to him. When we meet those conditions, the desire and 437 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:43,520 the process and the actions, attitudes of repentance just naturally follow. 438 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:48,160 Darrell Bock Yeah. I think that, you know, when we talk about broken heart and contrite spirit, 439 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,200 there are two phrases there, broken heart. And I think that, you know, that one's 440 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:58,480 a little easier for most of us to wrap our brains around. But when it comes to contrite spirit, 441 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:05,520 Dave, I think Elder Anderson in his book here just does a fantastic job to helping to make that 442 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,480 more clear, at least to help to make it more clear. And as Deb and I teach this each, each 443 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:16,400 Wednesday night to Institute class, BYU for Brigham Young University and University of 444 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:23,200 or Utah Valley University students at a YSA stake, that's one of the things that, you know, can be 445 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:29,280 a question or something of great discussion. What does it really mean to have a contrite spirit? 446 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,280 In the book, Elder Anderson talks about, and I'm paraphrasing, I'm not going to read it, 447 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:39,280 but I'm paraphrasing here, he talks about how having a contrite spirit is really nothing more 448 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:46,480 than the ability for us to have our Heavenly Fathers have our will swallowed up in our 449 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,400 Heavenly Fathers will. It's really just turning our will in our life over to the care of God, 450 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,240 as we understand him, which is nothing more than the third step and, you know, 451 00:53:54,240 --> 00:54:00,000 Alcoholics Anonymous and the other recovery programs. And so, you know, any kind of transformational 452 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:06,880 change will be that through repentance. And even as Alcoholics and addicts are overcoming 453 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,960 their addictions and so forth, to understand that that contrite spirit, broken heart, we get that. 454 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:19,360 Broken heart means I can't, you know, I'm beat down, my life is a mess. I will never be able to 455 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:25,840 have his spirit in my life without taking some sort of action. And with in the absence of his 456 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:33,440 spirit in my life is the very reason that I experience all of the pain and turmoil and 457 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:39,440 all the rotten things that life affords me become because of that. That's broken heart. The contrite 458 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:46,800 spirit is how do I what do I do and what actions do I take and what actions do I stop taking that 459 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:52,960 will allow my will to be completely swallowed up in his as soon as my thoughts are his thoughts as 460 00:54:52,960 --> 00:55:01,360 soon as my actions and my walking is 100% in accordance with his will for me. Then I have 461 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:08,720 come to know him, then I have fully come to him. But in the meantime, that process of allowing 462 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:16,480 that contrition, that contrite spirit to be a well to be alive and well in my life, I need to be 463 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:22,720 participating actively in making sure that I'm doing the things that allow me to allow my will 464 00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:30,960 to be swallowed up in his. Amen to that, Scott. We haven't used the word obedience yet. 465 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,720 And I know that Elder Christopherson in describing broken heart and contrite spirit 466 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:43,040 talks about it's not only the sorrow for our sins, but it's also the desire to be obedient. 467 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:51,360 And to, as you say, have our have our will to lay our will on the altar of God and to offer 468 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:58,800 our obedience and our own personal sacrifice to him, not sacrifice for our sins, but 469 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:08,080 sacrificed of obedience. So I agree with what you just shared and look forward to describing in 470 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:18,880 in a future episode in more detail what repentance is. And so I'm thankful, Scott, for this opportunity 471 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:31,600 to to discuss the process that we call repentance and to contemplate the the power and the the 472 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:40,080 essence that forgiveness and grace and mercy that can flow into our life because of the blood 473 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:48,800 of Jesus Christ and his his gift that we call the atonement that he has offered us. And I'm 474 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:57,680 I'm so grateful for these things and grateful for the spirit that I always feel when I can learn 475 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:05,280 and when I can listen to others discuss it and and also for the opportunity, the the humble 476 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:11,840 blessing it is to be able to share it with others. So thank you to all of you and thank you, Scott, 477 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:18,720 for sharing this time. My sentiments exactly. This is a great opportunity, I think, for all of us 478 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:26,400 to reassess where we are to take a personal inventory and what it's like in my life. What am I doing 479 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:32,960 to prevent Heavenly Father Spirit to be in with me? What am I not doing that would allow it more? 480 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:38,720 Or what am I not doing that also keeps it away from me? So let's let's consider those things 481 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,520 this week as we consider what repentance is not. We look forward to talking about what 482 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:49,680 repentance is in upcoming podcasts. I think you'll find great healing and comfort in that as well. 483 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:56,640 It's been a great podcast. Thanks for being with us. Remember that always and in all things he can 484 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:02,800 and will be with you if we are putting on the Atonement of Jesus Christ through repentance, 485 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:08,080 through daily turning to him and daily turning away from those things that prevent him in our 486 00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:13,520 lives. Thanks for being with us. Remember that he has redeemed you through his blood. 487 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:29,440 We love you. We know he does too. May you feel that always is our prayer. Thanks for being with us.