1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:18,040 Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. 2 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,040 In this podcast we discuss hope, healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus 3 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,040 Christ. 4 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,720 I'm Scott Durfey and I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, brother 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:29,720 David Durfey. 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,320 Good to be here, Scott. 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:37,840 Just got back from Scotland and brought home a little souvenir of virus and so my voice 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,600 is kind of off so I apologize for that. 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,560 Hey listen gang, we want to thank you all for the emails, the questions, the correspondence 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,800 that we've gotten in your various ways of getting it to us and we really appreciate 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,800 it. 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,840 As Dave mentioned, I think last episode we do our very best to incorporate your questions. 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:02,360 If we don't talk about your questions specifically and call them out verbatim the way that you've 14 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,560 typed them in your emails and various forms of communication to us, we're doing our best 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,000 to incorporate the general idea. 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,560 We just do everything we can to make sure that we're incorporating and including your 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:16,760 questions, etc. 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,080 So keep those coming to us. 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,400 You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,080 And on that note, Scott, we got one that really affected me. 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:28,320 I know it affected you too. 22 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:31,560 We talked about it briefly. 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,160 And so we've got that. 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:39,280 In fact, I see you actually printed it out and it's sitting here on the table. 25 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:46,520 Long communication from a young man or middle-aged man, I don't know his age. 26 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,840 And we'll maybe spend a whole podcast on that one. 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,400 And so there are, there will be in the future. 28 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,440 It's not that we have forgotten or that we put it off and we know you want answers as 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,720 soon as possible and we'll try to get to them. 30 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,800 Also if you wouldn't mind sending us your feedback, we know that some of you have opinions 31 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,280 and ideas and suggestions. 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Please get those coming to us as well. 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,400 We appreciate those very much. 34 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,080 Well so last week we talked about repentance. 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,040 We talked about mostly what it is not, but we did spend quite a bit of time, in fact, 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,280 the entire time talking about repentance and a few things around that, Dave. 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,160 Prior to that, we had a guest on, I don't know if it was the week before or two weeks 38 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,480 prior and it went really well with brother Nate Moller. 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Well today we have an opportunity to have another experience like that. 40 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,680 We have a young man who is joining us today. 41 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,560 His name is Scott Harmon. 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:51,560 Can I say your last name, Scott? 43 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:52,560 Am I okay with that? 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:53,560 Yeah. 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,560 Okay. 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:55,560 His name is Scott Harmon. 47 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,480 Scott's been a close friend, really close friend of mine for what did we decide? 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,960 21 years I think. 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,720 And we're going to get into how all of that materialized, how all of that came about. 50 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:16,000 But Scott's got a really interesting, intriguing story, especially when it comes to his relationship 51 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,080 with his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,640 So with that, Scott, say hi to everybody. 53 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:23,880 Hey, everybody. 54 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:24,880 It's good to have you. 55 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,320 It's good to have Scott with us, as always for sure. 56 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,040 So Scott, why don't we do this? 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,560 Let's just kind of kick this off. 58 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,080 We did talk a little bit preliminarily. 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,680 If you want to just kind of kick off and tell us a little bit about your beginning prior 60 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,560 to your, maybe even prior to your getting married. 61 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,400 What was your life like growing up? 62 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:51,080 Did you grow up in the church, were you raised in an area where it was predominant? 63 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,120 Did you grow up in an area where it was not so much predominant? 64 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,600 Just kind of give us maybe a few minutes of background of what it was like growing up, 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,600 Scott Harmon. 66 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,600 All right. 67 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,920 So I grew up in Orham, Utah. 68 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,280 I'm the second oldest of seven children. 69 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:17,080 And my family was always really religious, my parents dragged us to church every Sunday. 70 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:25,400 And as a child, I feel like I always believed in the gospel. 71 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:34,280 And I believed that in the Book of Mormon and all this stuff, but I didn't feel like 72 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:39,320 for some reason I had this feeling of inadequacy in myself. 73 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:49,160 And as an early teenager was making some bad choices and I just felt like this, all this 74 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,520 stuff didn't apply to me and that I was not good enough. 75 00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:00,400 So I started seeking out other methods to find peace. 76 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:09,320 And all the while, even as far away as I got, I always had this small little testimony in 77 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,160 my heart that really, I think it comes from primary. 78 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,680 And that kind of is a testimony for the importance of primary. 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:24,560 You have these feelings, you just can't forget from the little primary hymns. 80 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:33,000 And one of the primary hymns, a child's prayer was something that came back to me later in 81 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:44,280 my life when I was in solitary confinement, which is just something that I could never 82 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:45,280 get past. 83 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:49,760 So no matter what, I always had this small testimony. 84 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:59,040 And as early in my teenage years, I started to experiment with alcohol and drugs all the 85 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:09,040 while still having my parents kind of have me go to church and just kind of living two 86 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,280 lives and stuff. 87 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:17,400 But as soon as I moved out, I just completely abandoned going to church. 88 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,800 And by 19, I got married. 89 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,760 Over the course of several years, I had a couple kids with my first wife. 90 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,240 I just picked a career. 91 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:32,200 I decided I was going to be a plumber and I moved to Las Vegas to get trained by my 92 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:38,920 uncle, who's a plumber, brought my family with us, with me. 93 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:48,160 And just, but down there, I just really got absorbed into the whole scene and was consuming 94 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:57,320 a lot of alcohol at the time and getting into a lot of fights and also indulging in other 95 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:03,840 things that I shouldn't have been outside of wedlock and stuff. 96 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:09,240 And eventually, my wife at the time didn't want anything to do with it. 97 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,720 And she left me and moved back to Utah. 98 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:22,880 And at the time, we had a house and all the things that you hoped for, trying to live 99 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,680 the American dream. 100 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,640 And so we've got a pretty good handle on your background. 101 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:35,160 You were raised in the church, you struggled a little bit as a teenager with trying to, 102 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,640 you said, seeking out peace. 103 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:39,640 Let's jump ahead. 104 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:46,800 Talk about where you and I met and maybe some of the conditions around that. 105 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:55,520 So I met Scott and where I think about it, it had to have been 2002, so it was 20 years 106 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,040 ago, and I had just come back from that. 107 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:06,160 At this time, I had come back from Southern California where in the end of that experience, 108 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:12,160 I was actually homeless on the streets and I come back home to live with my parents. 109 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:19,560 And while I was there, my dad brought this flyer to me that the bishop had given him 110 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,640 and he said, I want to take you to this meeting. 111 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,160 It was, I don't even think they had a name for it. 112 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,280 We actually called it the LDS Substance Abuse Program. 113 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:30,280 That's right. 114 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:31,280 Yeah. 115 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,280 It was called the LDS 12 Step Program. 116 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:33,280 That's what it was. 117 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,280 The LDS 12 Step Program. 118 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:35,280 That's right. 119 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,280 I still have that original book. 120 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:42,720 It was the best kept secret in the church, which I guess it still is one of the best 121 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:49,080 kept secrets, but my dad took me to the first meeting and at the time I maybe had four or 122 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:55,600 five days sober and I remember I just, I really just, I couldn't share, I just cried through 123 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,480 the whole meeting because I felt the spirit, you know, which I didn't know what I was feeling 124 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,440 at the time, but now I look back and I know it was the spirit, you know, because I had 125 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,440 gone through so much. 126 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,200 I had put myself through so much things. 127 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:16,280 I had heard a lot of people in my addiction and now I was feeling something that was, 128 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,360 you know, nice and peaceful and feeling some hope. 129 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,440 So 2002, you and I meet there. 130 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,400 I've seen you at a lot of various meetings and you're seeing me. 131 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,880 I'm not there to help people. 132 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,800 I'm there to help myself just to be clear. 133 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,560 You know, I don't have a leadership role or, you know, or anything like that. 134 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:42,000 And I don't ever want that, you know, this podcast to come off as in that way at all 135 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,640 because there's no such thing in those types of things. 136 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,520 We're just together to help each other, right, Scott? 137 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:54,200 And so, you know, we meet, we have some real close interactions for a time. 138 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,600 In fact, Scott, I think if it's okay with you, I'll share it that I was sponsoring you 139 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,160 for a period of time during that period. 140 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,440 And you know, what happened, Scott? 141 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:15,240 And well, from 2003 to almost 2004, I was able to, you know, get some sobriety under 142 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,960 my belt, so to say. 143 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:26,120 And I was 10 days, I was super excited because I never, when I started the program, I never 144 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:32,200 thought that I would ever get, you know, even a month or two sobriety. 145 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,800 But once I got those and then I got six months, it's feeling pretty good. 146 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:41,720 And I thought, geez, I might even, you know, get a year chip, which to me seemed incredible. 147 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:47,440 So, Scott, let me just, let me, for those that don't know, let me just share real quickly. 148 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:53,440 In recovery rooms, it's kind of customary, depending on the program, et cetera, that we 149 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,560 make recognition of periods of sobriety milestones. 150 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,600 I know that's not done in a lot of other things when it comes to repentance, you know, in 151 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,600 those types of things. 152 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,280 But when it comes to addiction recovery, that can be an important component of it. 153 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,800 So Scott, you were getting anxious to pick up this one year chip you called it, that's 154 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:13,800 right? 155 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:14,800 Yes. 156 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:23,200 And then 10, 10 days shy of that, I had been in this relationship and which, you know, 157 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:29,280 another part of my addiction was codependency and relationships and, and, you know, I was 158 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,000 just a mess. 159 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:38,160 And this, this girl broke up with me and literally the next day I was just like, you know what? 160 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,720 No, I cannot handle this pain. 161 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,760 I can't handle this rejection. 162 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,080 I will not handle it. 163 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,160 I will not deal with it. 164 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,440 I will not allow myself to suffer through it. 165 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,840 I will, you know, and so I just made some calls, even though I really didn't have a lot of 166 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:04,520 connections and, and I within a few hours I was relapsing and, but I didn't want to tell 167 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,680 anybody. 168 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:08,880 So I pretended like everything was fine. 169 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,600 And I kept going to meetings and stuff. 170 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:19,040 And meanwhile was using and I even had a dealer showing up to the meetings and I would walk 171 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:24,640 out pretending I was going up to the bathroom and I'd go out to the parking lot and get, 172 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:32,160 you know, get some substances and, and, and I still collected my one year chip, you know, 173 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,640 and I don't remember exactly what happened. 174 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,400 I feel like people found out anyway. 175 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,880 And I don't think I, I don't want to say I was suddenly honest and told the truth, but 176 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,480 I think people found out whether it was my parents or something. 177 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:53,560 And then I just, I told Scott and a couple other people, you know what, I did not actually 178 00:12:53,560 --> 00:13:00,000 make it to my one year and I, and I went to the next meeting and returned the, the chip 179 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:06,640 to the people who had witnessed me receive it and let them know that I was not sober 180 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,840 and that I had deceived people. 181 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,000 And so that's what, what were your feelings? 182 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,800 I was there and I remember exactly how I felt that day. 183 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,560 How did you feel that day? 184 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:28,200 I felt, well, there I go again, always messing everything up, never going to be successful, 185 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,280 mostly just really down. 186 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,440 I didn't have the ability to feel any good feeling at the time. 187 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,800 I didn't have the ability to feel emotions because I wasn't sober. 188 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:45,000 I just, you know, I wished that I had made it, but at that point it was, it was kind 189 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,840 of too late and you beat yourself up pretty bad. 190 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:52,840 I remember that. 191 00:13:52,840 --> 00:14:00,320 And then I just went, you know, completely downward, you know, just quickly. 192 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,040 So let me tell you what I remember about that night. 193 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,600 It was an American fork. 194 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:12,800 It was at a steak center on Nob Hill and I remember when you started your share and you 195 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,320 took that coin, that chip out. 196 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,840 And when you started to share what you shared, there have been a few times when I have felt 197 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:27,720 the spirit so thick that the hair on my arm stands up and that was one of those nights. 198 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:37,520 It's interesting how truth and how when we are able to finally be completely transparent 199 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,960 with our Heavenly Father and others about where we are, it's interesting how that invokes 200 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:42,960 the spirit. 201 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:43,960 Would you agree with that? 202 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,560 Yeah, it is. 203 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:52,640 You know, even when, even when you're like, your mind's not, you know, sober or anything. 204 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,880 There's still the spirit confined away to. 205 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,040 What do you think that is? 206 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,040 Do you think that's because he loves us so much? 207 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,360 Or do you think what do you think that is? 208 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:10,480 Yeah, I think he never gives up on us, which, you know, he something that I didn't understand 209 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:11,480 at the time. 210 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,600 And I know that he never gives up. 211 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,400 He's always, he's always there. 212 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:25,680 It was always my choices and my, you know, thoughts and stuff that were keeping him away 213 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,560 or keeping me from feeling him. 214 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,320 But yes, I agree wholeheartedly on that. 215 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,320 All right, Scott. 216 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,440 So let's fast forward now. 217 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,200 Shortly after that, you went on a little vacation. 218 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:46,920 Yeah, so this was in December of 2000, or probably early January of 2004 when I returned 219 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:56,320 the ship and then April 8th of 2004, I was, I was arrested by the Orham Police Department 220 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:02,120 and while I was on a job, I was, I was at the time, you know, once again, I was a plumber 221 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:09,360 and I just had finished installing a water heater and came out of a garage and two plain 222 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:14,720 close gentlemen were standing there and asked if my, well, my, if my name was Scott Harman 223 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,520 and I, and I knew immediately what was going on. 224 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,400 And I thought for a second I should run. 225 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,920 But then I thought, what's the point? 226 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,160 You know, yes, I just told him, yes, I'm Scott Harman. 227 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,240 And then I said, well, you're under arrest. 228 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:31,800 He just took me in. 229 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,480 And at the time I'm sitting in the police car, I'm thinking, what does this mean? 230 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:41,840 You know, I guess I'll be gone for a few months or maybe a year. 231 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:50,160 And then, you know, once I got to the jail and went to court appearances a few times, 232 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,560 my attorney says, well, they're offering you a plea deal and you should, you should think 233 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,400 about taking it. 234 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,680 And I said, well, what's the plea deal? 235 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:03,560 And they said, well, it's, it's going to give you, I think 72 months or something. 236 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,120 And as I turn my mask, no, I'm like, that's not in the Utah State prison. 237 00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:09,120 I don't know. 238 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,120 That's not acceptable. 239 00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:12,440 I can't do that. 240 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:20,200 And I can't remember mathematically what that time is, but I, I eventually, I did, I said, 241 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:27,320 well, I remember my attorney telling me, well, you know, just, you know, go back and think 242 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,320 about it. 243 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,400 And then at the time I was in solitary confinement for being in a fight. 244 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:39,160 And so it was my only time getting out actually into normal, any kind of normal life. 245 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,120 I was like locked down for 24 hours a day. 246 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,600 I got out every three days for 15 minutes to shower and I never got outside. 247 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:54,680 And so I went back to my cell and I, I fell to my knees and cause I knew what I was going 248 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:55,680 to do. 249 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:06,760 I knew that I was going to just accept this and I just, I asked God to walk with me for 250 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,200 these, these years that were coming up and I promised him I was not going to waste one 251 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,840 moment of time if he would help me through this, this experience. 252 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:26,680 And by that I meant I was going to, you know, not be out there playing cards, gambling, 253 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:33,280 getting tattoos, watching a lot of TV and stuff, you know, which they do in the prison. 254 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:39,960 I meant that I was going to be studying the gospel, any chance I got, Institute and all 255 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:40,960 that stuff. 256 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:47,000 And I just made my commitment to that, to him at that time there on the concrete floor. 257 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:53,480 And I feel like for the most part I did, I read the Book of Mormon 11 times while I was 258 00:18:53,480 --> 00:19:00,680 in there and attended Institute every single day, you know, they had three hours of Institute 259 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:06,720 from one to five PM every day and I was there for the whole time. 260 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:15,080 And I became the Institute president for the, you know, the Wasec facility. 261 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:22,880 And I mean, that's, you know, that's quite a life, quite a contrast from growing up and 262 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,560 then, you know, in primary and singing the child's prayer and then being in solitary 263 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,920 confinement and really, really, it sounds like Scott finding your Heavenly Father probably 264 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,720 more intimately in that setting than in any setting you've been before. 265 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:47,080 And you know, Scott, there's a certain irony about that, but there's also some people who 266 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:53,800 have not understood what it's like to nail on a concrete floor with surrounded by bars 267 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:59,680 and prison guards and or, or, you know, the various other iterations of that experience 268 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,400 that we all get to experience. 269 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:09,240 But you know, Scott, there are folks who are listening to this podcast and folks that you 270 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:16,120 and I know who are currently in their own though there may not be walls and there though 271 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,400 though there may not be a cement floor that they're on. 272 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,240 So there's still a lot of folks out there that feel like they're in some sort of prison 273 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:31,120 where they're confined or where they're restricted or where, and a million other, you know, adjectives 274 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,120 could be used to describe that. 275 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:41,360 Scott, what was it like for you to be finally filling a spirit of our Heavenly Father? 276 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:46,080 It sounds like there was a lot of surrender on your part, a lot of I'm giving in, I'm 277 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,600 going to let you use because I can't. 278 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,320 How did your relationship and we'll start moving here into, you know, the effects of 279 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,520 the Atonement of Jesus Christ and His power. 280 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,680 We'll start moving into that as part of this discussion at this point. 281 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:05,680 But you know, can you just kind of describe maybe what was that like to have that spiritual 282 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,160 experience and can you contrast that with maybe others that you had had in the past. 283 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,760 And while you're doing that, can you help us understand if this is the case where it 284 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,880 was kind of a turning point for you, what made the difference this time? 285 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,240 One thing that stands out is when I went to my first Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in the 286 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:34,320 prison and I walked into the room and some inmate had drawn this elaborate, you know, 287 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:39,800 because they have all the time in the world, he'd drawn this elaborate picture that said, 288 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:46,120 and it was, it said, free at last on it and they said, welcome to the Utah State prison, 289 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,280 free at last Alcoholics Anonymous chapter of the Alcoholics Anonymous. 290 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,080 And I was like, that's what they called. 291 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,080 That was the name of their group. 292 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,080 Free at last. 293 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,080 Free at last. 294 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,720 Yeah, free at last. 295 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,000 And so I mean, to me, that's how I felt. 296 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,680 I was, I was incarcerated, but I was free. 297 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,040 I was more free than I had ever been. 298 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:12,400 I often shared that, you know, they talk in the Book of Mormon about the waters of Mormon 299 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,160 and how beautiful it was to those who had come to know Jesus Christ. 300 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:23,960 And to me, the Utah State prison, which, you know, they're getting ready to tear it down, 301 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:32,080 you know, that as ugly as it is, it was the beautiful, I came, my waters of Mormon, cinder 302 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,560 blocks, concrete, gray bars, you know, and steel. 303 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,080 And that's where I came to know Jesus Christ was in there. 304 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:49,280 And so, you know, I often have thought, you know, even since I've been out, that the 305 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:55,160 experiences I felt in there are nothing that I could even compare to you here out in the 306 00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:01,440 free world, you know, they're the spiritual experiences and there are just powerful things 307 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,920 that I can only compare to maybe being in the temple, you know, for me for the first 308 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:12,280 time in 2018 when I was sealed to my family. 309 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:20,240 So I mean, I just feel more free once I was able to accept the Atonement, once I was able 310 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:29,240 to realize that the Atonement actually, you know, does cover myself, you know, and then 311 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:34,560 I felt that freedom that can't come from any other source. 312 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:41,600 And Scott, that freedom has gifted you with a great number of gifts, Cami being one, your 313 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,920 kids being another. 314 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:51,480 Can you talk about them just a little bit and about how you feel that that may be a gift 315 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,440 from Heavenly Father and kind of talk about your feelings around that? 316 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:05,600 Yeah, I feel like it's really the word restoration, you know, which I think goes in red and white 317 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:14,200 with the Atonement and not only can we repent and be forgiven, but we can also restore, 318 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:22,440 have all the things restored that we have before or, you know, really, I've never had 319 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:29,880 what I have now, and so I've been restored, you know, sevenfold from what I had before. 320 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:38,600 And you know, when I started, when I got out and I met Cami and, you know, I was 37 years 321 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:45,760 old and she was, I think, 23 at the time and who would have ever thought that we would 322 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,200 have ever dated even. 323 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:54,760 We got married and we have three little kids and so, you know, I lost the opportunity to 324 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:02,360 raise my other kids, which they're in my life, but, you know, I've been given a second opportunity, 325 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:07,320 a second chance, you know, I like to call it the gift of second chances. 326 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:14,400 It's just, and, you know, I just, I think about every day or any time like, well, that 327 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,480 I have, like yesterday was one of the most stressful days I've had in a long time and 328 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:25,320 I was even joking with my secretary that, well, it's a good thing that I don't have, 329 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:31,000 you know, a bottle or something in my office because it was a, I would have been a temptation, 330 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:37,760 you know, but like at the same time, I know what would happen if I did do that and even 331 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,400 though, you know, Cami understands the program and she fully understands the program, but 332 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,080 a few times she's asked me, well, how long, how much longer do you have to serve in this 333 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,080 program? 334 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,200 Like when are you going to be better? 335 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,520 And I have to think, I have to think, you know what, you did not know me before, which, 336 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,120 you know, Scott Durfee did know me before. 337 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,360 A lot of my friends knew me before. 338 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,680 They don't want to, you know, you don't, I think, Cami, you don't want to know that 339 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,040 person and you don't want to know how fast someone can go downhill from a relapse, you 340 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:17,840 know, you can, you can, in four months, you can be gone and be in the prison and you're 341 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,360 like, oh no, I want to take back the last four months of my life and do things differently 342 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:24,880 and you can't at that point. 343 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,560 And so, but we can always come back from it. 344 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,040 We're going to, just real quick, let me just, on that note, you know, I have a guy that 345 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,160 every once in a while will ask me, so how long are you going to need to keep going to 346 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,400 those meetings and this guy happens to be a good member of the church and, you know, 347 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,680 just doesn't understand, there's nothing, but to help. 348 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,960 So what I sometimes say to him to help him understand is, is you still going, because 349 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,280 he'll say, you still going to meetings? 350 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,000 I'll say, yeah, well, how much longer are you going to need to go there? 351 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,160 Aren't you better yet? 352 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,760 It's been 23 years, 24 years. 353 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,160 And I'll say to this person, I'll say, are you still going to church? 354 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,400 And he'll, of course, say, well, yeah. 355 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,320 And I'll say, well, you still taking the sacrament and he'll say, well, yeah. 356 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,480 And I'll say, well, how long are you going to keep doing that? 357 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,720 How much you got that figured out yet? 358 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,760 And so, you know, that's tongue in cheek. 359 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,920 And I know it's not, well, to me, it's exactly the same and probably to you too, Scott. 360 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,240 But I think there is that to the, to, you know, can be confusing to some folks. 361 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,640 So, you know, can be, he's not alone. 362 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,440 I can tell you that right now. 363 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,640 Hey, Scott. 364 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:34,240 So I want to, I want to just kind of turn this discussion a little bit towards the process 365 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,040 of repentance. 366 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:42,200 And you've talked about how to put on Christ through his atonement, how to, how to kind 367 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,760 of do that, what you've experienced, what you felt. 368 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:53,680 I want to go back to that, to that precipitous event where you felt down, fell down on your 369 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,760 knees and you cried out. 370 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,280 Scott reading the Book of Mormon, the main times you did in the prison, did the term 371 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:10,440 cry out, which is over and over again, describing Enos, describing Alma, describing the people 372 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,080 of Mosiah and Alma and all throughout the Book of Mormon. 373 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:24,440 There's this term cry out that day in prison in solitary confinement, you, you cried out. 374 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,440 Did you say that was the real beginning and that you, of repentance for you and that you 375 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,600 continue to draw strength from that one moment? 376 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,680 Yeah, I do. 377 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:41,600 And I, and I really did cry out because I was alone in the cell and there was no one 378 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,600 around me. 379 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,240 There was a camera on me because there's cameras on everybody in solitary confinement because 380 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,400 they fear someone might hurt them, harm themselves. 381 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:59,560 But I, I just knelt down and I, I cried out and I felt, I felt this feeling that, you 382 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,160 know, that I felt as a child, but hadn't felt it until that moment. 383 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:13,760 And again, and I knew that I was willing to do everything, you know, like, I think it 384 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:21,040 was King Lamona who said he would give away all his sins to note, you know, give away 385 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,200 all my sins to know the, and that's how, that's how I felt the moment because I knew that 386 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640 that was the only thing that was bringing me peace. 387 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:34,480 And I've often in my life since I've come back, you know, I'm out in the free world 388 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,200 and all that for the past over 10 years. 389 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,920 It's like I was telling my secretary yesterday, I was like, I said, you know, experiences 390 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,040 like this that we're going through today is something that you can look back on and say, 391 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:54,040 at least it's not, you know, August 8, you know, to the 22, like, at least I, you know, 392 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,640 this is, this is bad, but at least it's not, you know, I'm not sitting in solitary confinement. 393 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,280 I haven't had everybody abandon me. 394 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,120 I can talk. 395 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,520 I can talk to, I can talk to my loved ones. 396 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,280 I can hug my wife. 397 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:18,800 You know, I'm not in a place where everyone has abandoned me except my mom. 398 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:28,120 And so experiences like that, you can't reproduce, you know, and you can never, you can never 399 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,480 forget it. 400 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:36,000 It's extremely, it's something you don't want to go through, but it's so invaluable because 401 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:44,160 when times get hard in life, which they always do, and they always will, you can always fall 402 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,720 back on those difficult times and draw strength from them. 403 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,720 Well, that's sweet, Scott. 404 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,120 And continuing in our thoughts on the process of repentance. 405 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:03,440 We haven't talked about this in any of our episodes yet, but the conditions of repentance 406 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:10,200 is also a term in the Book of Mormon that one must meet the conditions of repentance. 407 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,720 And I've kind of come to the conclusion, and I know Elder Anderson shared this idea in his 408 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:22,720 book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, that the conditions of repentance are a broken 409 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:32,920 heart and contrite spirit, that godly sorrow, broken heart, contrite spirit, must be kind 410 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:39,280 of the impetus and the beginning of the repentance process. 411 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:47,400 It described to us or to our listeners, when did your heart become broken? 412 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,840 When did your spirit become contrite? 413 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:59,840 And how did that lead up to that point in your life where you cried out unto God? 414 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,400 But just describe, if you can, remembering that your heart was broken and your spirit 415 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,240 was contrite. 416 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,920 And how did you get to that? 417 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:17,040 I guess what I'm asking here, Scott, is does one always have to hit the proverbial rock 418 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:24,280 bottom in order to feel a broken heart or contrite spirit, or did you feel it over and over and 419 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:30,360 over again as you read the Book of Mormon, and do you continue to feel it? 420 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:37,560 And at what point do you say, okay, my heart is broken, my spirit contrite, I've met the 421 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,880 conditions of repentance, and therefore the Atonement of Jesus Christ is working in my 422 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:43,880 life? 423 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,880 When did that all, how have you processed that out in your mind? 424 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:55,680 I think initially it started with my first meeting in the 12 step program, but I don't 425 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:01,840 feel, I feel it because I just come back from where I lost everything or what I thought 426 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:02,840 was everything. 427 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:09,840 I didn't realize I could lose more, and I had lost everything in my view, my marriage, 428 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:15,280 my house, all my vehicles, everything, you know, and my tools. 429 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:21,840 I was homeless, and so I started to have that little taste of it, but like I said, you know, 430 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:29,080 the ultimate moment was when I spent all that time in solitary confinement, where I was 431 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:40,080 so humbled in that silence of not having anybody to talk to except for my Heavenly Father, 432 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:49,280 and having to learn to create that relationship for the first time in the silence of what 433 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:59,080 they call the whole, and to feel, you know, allow myself to feel that. 434 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,600 You know, I had to just accept the pain. 435 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:08,880 I could not any longer, there was no drugs, there was no alcohol, I had to say, you know, 436 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,880 it's okay to feel this pain, you know, which it actually took a lot longer than just that 437 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,960 experience where I was able to accept dealing with life and on life's terms, you know, and 438 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:26,320 allowing myself to feel instead of trying to just escape it all the time. 439 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,120 Well, I think that's really, really insightful. 440 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:39,680 All of us have to allow ourselves to feel that pain, and that part of that pain is, 441 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:45,400 it comes from a good place, it comes from a desire to want to have a relationship with 442 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:53,400 God, and to finally realize where we're at in relationship to Him, and to realize what 443 00:34:53,400 --> 00:35:01,800 we have cost Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer, that really brings about, I think, 444 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,360 that broken heart and contrite spirit that has long term effect. 445 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:13,880 I think a lot of people can reach rock bottom over and over and over again, but they never 446 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,440 cry out to God, they never really desire a relationship with Him, like you did, you said, 447 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,040 in fact I want to ask you about this, you said, if you will walk with me, I'll try to 448 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:29,120 do this and this and this and this, I mean you kind of, in some ways made a covenant 449 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,520 with God there on the concrete floor on your knees as you cried out to God, didn't you? 450 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,640 And I want to ask you, does Jesus Christ walk the halls of the prison? 451 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:45,960 Elder Oaks read a letter from a prisoner that said that Jesus Christ walks the halls of 452 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,680 the prison, did you experience that? 453 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:58,280 I did, and I remember there was an LDS, a Dictionary Recovery missionary that came in, 454 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:05,920 I remember one specific meeting when he shared, and he said to all of us inmates, he said, 455 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:18,000 I want you to know that Jesus Christ walks these halls, and I felt like all the hairs 456 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,960 on my arms just stand out, because I knew that was true, it was something I had never 457 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:33,000 thought about, but I've never felt those feelings that I felt in there, you know, since, and 458 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:45,200 I feel like Jesus understands the need that people have for him in there, and I feel like 459 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:52,640 his spirit is focused in there for those who are willing to receive it, and there was times 460 00:36:52,640 --> 00:37:00,000 that it's easy to lose the spirit in there because you hear so much, so much violence 461 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:11,080 and vulgarity, and I had a friend who was killed in there, one of my closest friends, 462 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:20,560 and sometimes you would just wonder, is today going to be the day that I may get in a fight 463 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,760 or something, or offend someone, and find myself in a situation, and there was times 464 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:33,560 that I would just beg, and we talked about crying out, a lot of my crying out was in 465 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:40,960 my mind, especially once I was surrounded by other inmates, and I would at times kneel 466 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:47,200 on my bonk and fall asleep kneeling on my, you know, wake up with my legs asleep, and 467 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:54,560 those whole times I would be crying out and begging God to just help me one more day, 468 00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:01,760 like I wasn't sure if I could just make it through the next day, or when I got a four-year 469 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:09,280 re-hearing, you know, just every night for months just begging Heavenly Father to help 470 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:19,240 me through this experience, and there was times I prayed and asked for a bubble to protect 471 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:26,160 me, you know, so that I could contain that spirit within, surrounding me as I walked 472 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,800 through, you know, I guess the valley of the shadow of death, you know, and like, because 473 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,320 there was a lot of things going on that would easily take away the spirit. 474 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:42,160 Well, that cry out is not, for sure, is not a one-time thing, so I think that's making 475 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:49,280 it another important point. Going back to the repentance process, do you mind sharing 476 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:57,480 with our listeners kind of, how to, what was the church's role in helping you through the 477 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:04,000 repentance process if they did play a role, and just tell us a little bit about that, 478 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,760 and then I'll ask you some more questions about it. 479 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:14,160 So when I first came back from California, and I was living with my parents in 2002 when 480 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:24,080 I met Scott Derfee, and I had someone in the program had encouraged me to talk to my bishop 481 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:31,360 because I was tormented by a lot of things that happened when I was into my active addiction, 482 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,240 because now I was sober, and I was able to feel the feelings that I were suppressed by 483 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:44,280 the drugs, and so I talked to my bishop and he said that he would need to have a court, 484 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:52,960 and I never felt any kind of animosity or judgment. It was just, you know, he's, I remember 485 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:59,480 the first thing he read me was Isaiah 118. The first time I walked in his office, you 486 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,200 know, and I wish I could, maybe Dave can quote that scripture perfectly, but. 487 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:10,880 Well, it's about our sins being as scarlet as red becoming as white as snow, right? 488 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,840 Yes, it's exactly it, and I remember like when he read that, I just was crying because 489 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:23,800 I imagined, you know, the purity of snow, and just thinking that that's even a possibility 490 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:33,720 was well beyond my comprehension. And anyway, I was on October 8, 2002, they held the court, 491 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:41,640 and I was excommunicated. And I never felt one bit of, it was everybody's, there was 492 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:47,760 only tears, you know, in the room and love. And, and then I remember him telling me the 493 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:53,240 bishops in a year from now, I want to see you back in here, and we'll get this, everything 494 00:40:53,240 --> 00:41:01,720 reinstated, you know. And unfortunately, it was, I think 14 years later, but it was completely 495 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:07,960 different bishop and all that. But it just because it didn't pan out because I didn't 496 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:15,120 ever get sober at the time, long enough to be able to experience that within a short 497 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:22,960 amount of time. So I did my time in prison, and then I got out in 2010. And I was told 498 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:30,680 that I could not get rebaptized while I was on parole. And so I kind of felt like, well, 499 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:38,280 I must not be forgiven yet. You know, I didn't, I didn't feel the full effects yet of it. 500 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,640 Because I'm not, I'm not allowed to get baptized, you know, so I must be something wrong with 501 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:50,240 me. And, and so I was meeting with someone, this guy and my dad's ward, and he asked me, 502 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:55,960 who's your favorite apostle? And I told him Richard G Scott. And he said, you know, what, 503 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,760 what would, what would you think if I could set up a meeting with you and Elder Scott? 504 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,480 And I said, I'd love it. Because, you know, while I was in prison, I had my mom send all 505 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:14,640 of this talk soon. And I just loved. And so I, he was coming to speak at PYU's graduation. 506 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:22,160 And this, this gentleman was able to ask Elder Scott to, if you would, you know, meet with 507 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,960 me and told him my story. And, and I went and met with him. I met with him at BYU. 508 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,520 And before he went to speak at the Marius Center. And I met with him in the office of 509 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:41,000 the president of BYU at the time. And he, the first thing I thought he wanted to know 510 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,120 from what I was told, he wanted to know my story. And so when I first met him, we sat 511 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,360 down and he held my hand the whole time. And he was just rubbing my hand and looking in 512 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:59,120 my eyes. The first thing he asked me was, he says, tell me about yourself. And I started 513 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,520 to tell him about my past. And he stopped me and he said, I don't want to hear about 514 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:13,520 your past. I would like to hear about what you're doing now. And I said, well, the bishop 515 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,920 gave me keys to the church. And my calling is to lock the doors every night and to check 516 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:28,040 all the windows. And so I go there every night at like 1030 and check everything. And he 517 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:37,800 said, Oh, that is one of the most important jobs in the whole, in the whole church. And 518 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:46,160 then I told him about how I just met my wife, Cami. She was just my girlfriend at the time. 519 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:53,200 And I just, we talked for, and then, and then about 15, we talked for 45 minutes, but about 520 00:43:53,200 --> 00:44:00,600 15 minutes into our conversation, he, he stopped me and he said, I feel impressed to tell you 521 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,320 something. He said, Heavenly Father wants you to know that you've been forgiven and 522 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:12,040 to forget your past. And the first time I heard it, but it didn't really sink in. And 523 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,400 then probably halfway through the meeting, he said, one more time, I don't feel that 524 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,200 you heard me the first time, but Heavenly Father wants you to know that you've been 525 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:30,040 forgiven and that you should forget your past. And that second time I did hear it. And then 526 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:37,680 at the very end, I asked, I asked someone to take, take a picture of me with him. And 527 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:43,480 we took a picture. And then right after he, he said one more time, he said, one more time, 528 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,360 I want you to know that you've been forgiven and Heavenly Father would like you to forget 529 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:55,160 your past. And I walked out of there. We had, we actually got into a golf cart and, and 530 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:02,800 drove through, at least BYU students, you know, waving and cheering. And here I was, 531 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:10,120 this guy who had just got out of prison with the other security people protecting Elder 532 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,600 Scott. And then I'm just sitting there thinking, you know, what am I doing here? As all these 533 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:21,640 people are cheering. And, but when I left, I just felt so much lighter. And I knew, I 534 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:28,160 thought, you know, how can I not apostle told me now, like how can I keep saying that I 535 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:35,000 need to suffer more? I need to, you know, do more. I've already, I've already done seven 536 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:40,960 years. Plus all the work I felt like, you know, I realized that I had done a lot of spiritual 537 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:48,240 work in there with all my branch presidents and bishops and stuff. And I thought, okay, 538 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:55,600 well, this, this part's over, but now I've got to work on getting repaptized. 539 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:04,280 So you, you, you shared this with me earlier, that you ended up petitioning multiple times 540 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,120 to be rebaptized and it was rejected a few times. 541 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:16,080 Yeah, it was my stake president. He actually said, you know, I think you're ready to get 542 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:25,040 baptized. Let's hold the court. And, and this is why I was still on parole and the rules, 543 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:31,200 you know, are that normally you can't get rebaptized if you're on parole, but at the 544 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,320 time they were, I'm not sure what they are now, but, but he said, sometimes they make 545 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,960 exceptions and I think you're ready. So I'm wanting, I want to put in paperwork. And so 546 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:48,160 he held the court, which was, that was just one of the most amazing experiences of my 547 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:54,280 whole life when I went in. It was a long process where they just talked to me, you 548 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,960 know, about everything. And then I was out in the hall waiting for, it seemed forever, 549 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:06,560 probably was only an hour or so. And I was just, you know, my mind I was thinking, oh, 550 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,680 you know, maybe, I don't know what I was thinking, but back and forth, you know, thinking that 551 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:17,560 maybe it's going to be a, I'm going to get a no vote, you know. So I went back in there 552 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:24,720 and I looked around and everybody had tears and they said, well, you know, it basically 553 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:33,480 had me sit down and then they, I was voted to, to be reinstated. And so the stake president 554 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:41,720 submitted the paperwork and after a month or two, it came back as declined. And it said, 555 00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:48,480 you know, just try again in a year, basically, you know, with a lot of, it was, it was a lot 556 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:54,160 nicer than that. But it was basically like, and then the next time you put it in a year 557 00:47:54,160 --> 00:48:02,760 later and it said, submit it, it came back as a no, and it said submit it after he's 558 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:11,120 off parole, you know. And so I was released from parole March of 2017 and he submitted 559 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:18,480 it that same week. And part of me was thinking, well, I might get, I'll probably get declined 560 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,000 again. I can't, I don't want to build my hopes up. 561 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,360 Now, let me, let me stop. Let me stop you pause for just a minute, Scott. This is, this 562 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:36,000 is all happening after Elder Scott has told you that your sins are forgiven. Yes. So, 563 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:44,240 were you a little confused by that? The point I want, I want to make if you're, if you're 564 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:54,080 able to kind of give us this, your point of view is forgiveness is not through the church. 565 00:48:54,080 --> 00:49:01,600 Forgiveness is through the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you really feel that? And did knowing 566 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:07,720 that help you to get through the rest? I mean, you haven't even been rebaptized and 567 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:15,640 Elder Scott's telling you that three times that your sins are forgiven. Were you, were 568 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:22,080 you able to, to draw strength from that, to sustain you knowing that it was only a matter 569 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:27,640 of time before you did get back your membership? But the only thing that really, really mattered 570 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:33,640 to you was you knew where you stood with Jesus Christ and your sins were forgiven. And I'm 571 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:39,600 so glad that the church now doesn't refer to those as courts, but refers to those as 572 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,120 councils, because I think that's, you know, they're, they're really meant to be councils 573 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,200 of love. And I know you experienced that. And I'm glad that they've kind of changed 574 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:54,840 their, their vernacular and wording about all that. Anyway, tell, tell us, tell the 575 00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:00,640 listeners about how knowing that you were forgiven by Jesus Christ was able to sustain 576 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,000 you until you got your membership in the church back. 577 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:12,800 Yeah, I, I was able to draw strength from that experience because it was, it was painful, 578 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:22,160 you know, to get the letter and read it and think, man, Thomas S. Monson, Elder Uctor, 579 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:29,400 they all signed this and they're saying no, you know, but then I also, when my wife and 580 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:37,600 I got engaged, we sent a wedding invitation to Elder Scott and just not thinking he would 581 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,960 come or anything, but, and he didn't come, but he wrote us a, he wrote, I want to say 582 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:49,760 it was a three, a three or four page letter. And I was always able to read that letter 583 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:56,200 to you and draw strength from that during, and so that's, was this a special gift to 584 00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:01,320 help me through that? Because I know I could have easily gone to have that gift helped 585 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:08,960 me through that experience to be able to just be patient and realize that I don't understand, 586 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:16,640 you know, why all my friends are getting rebaptized that we're, you know, in there, but why am 587 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:23,600 I not? And it seems like I am even doing more things than they are, you know, and, but I, 588 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,520 I don't know what, and some of those people got sent back, you know, and I look back and 589 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,120 I think, you know, Heavenly Father knows, Heavenly Father knows, and maybe you have 590 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:40,360 to experience that trial of fire so that you can appreciate it more when it actually does 591 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:46,800 happen. When it did happen, there was so many people in the chapel that no one could even 592 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:54,200 witness the baptism because nobody could fit in the room. And I mean, they could only fit 593 00:51:54,200 --> 00:52:00,640 so many people. So there's people all through the hall in that stake center. And I remember 594 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:07,440 when I heard them opening up the curtains during my baptism and thinking, what the heck, 595 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,440 where to open the curtains up. And then when I got up, they asked me to share and I looked 596 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:19,120 over in the whole chapel and the whole basketball court was, was filled with people. And I just 597 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:26,680 was his most special experience. A lot of people knew about the struggle, you know, 598 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:32,360 of getting rebaptized. And one of the most awesome things I think it's so funny is that 599 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:37,840 well, it's just interesting is when I was finally approved for rebaptism, they said, 600 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:46,480 well, the earliest date you can get rebaptized is April 8, 2017. And April 8, 2004 was the 601 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:55,440 day I was arrested. And so April 8, 2017 is the day I was rebaptized. And the chaplain 602 00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:03,520 from the prison was one of the people who spoke at my baptism. And it was just the most to 603 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:14,320 hear my chaplain, you know, speaking to me as a free person was just and teaching me, 604 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:23,520 you know, was just amazing to see him teaching in that environment. And it was just awesome 605 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:29,960 experience. And I had to have that for it to be that special, you know, I had to go through 606 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:38,760 that. But to answer your question, the experience with Elder Scott's strengthened me to be able 607 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,600 to handle those, what you call, rejections. 608 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:49,000 Yeah. And being baptized has strengthened you and being sealed in the temple has strengthened 609 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:57,160 you and and your progress and your repentance and forgiveness. It continues. I do want to 610 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:03,760 explore one more thing, Scott, with you. And we just released an episode last week about 611 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:11,680 what repentance is not. I think you said that maybe you you listen to that. What have you 612 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:19,120 learned? You can refer to anything we said in the episode last week about what repentance 613 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:28,440 is not. But what have you learned in your experience? What repentance is not? What were 614 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:35,120 some of the the wrong ideas that you grew up with or the false ideas or traditions you 615 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:42,160 grew up with about what repentance is not or or what it is? For example, we said repentance 616 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:50,320 is not the punishment, penalty or payment of sin. Did did you kind of wrestle with that? 617 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:55,800 And at what point did you have you come to believe that that's true, that it's not punishment 618 00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:01,600 or repentance is not punishment? A church, a church council membership council is not 619 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:08,720 punishment. It's not penalty. It's not payment for sin. What have you learned that repentance 620 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:13,920 is not and what have you learned that repentance is? I mean, what does it really come down 621 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:25,160 to, Scott? I used to think that the repentance was about suffering enough that you were forgiven. 622 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:32,840 You were finally forgiven if you suffered enough. I don't feel like that now. Even when 623 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,320 I first went to prison, I thought, I haven't suffered enough. I have not suffered enough. 624 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:49,040 I need to I need to experience this. And I know now that repentance is just I don't 625 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:54,480 even know what boards can describe. It's just it's it's making that next right choice. 626 00:55:54,480 --> 00:56:01,480 Not even it's it's it's like an AA where they say make living amends. It's just living differently 627 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:10,920 and and and allowing yourself to feel the peace that comes with that living an honest 628 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:18,040 life, not worrying about, you know, whether you've suffered enough, just day by day, you 629 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:25,000 know, knowing that the baptism is just a form of formality. You know, not not partaking 630 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:31,080 of the sacrament. It's embarrassing, but it's just a formality. You know, I used to bother 631 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:37,040 me thinking, Oh, I bet everybody thinks that I'm like sinning, you know, because I'm not 632 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:42,160 partaking of the sacrament. That was one of the things that bothered me. But I just I 633 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:47,720 just have to not I just had to not care what, you know, what people think or what I perceive 634 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:54,240 people think and realize that it's not about suffering. I mean, one thing I will say about 635 00:56:54,240 --> 00:57:02,920 suffering is that suffering, I feel if there is if there's a cure, if there is a cure for 636 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:13,560 addiction, and it is suffering, because suffering will lead you to sobriety, or to repentance. 637 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:19,640 But once you're there, the suffering part isn't needed. I mean, sometimes you have to 638 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:27,320 still you're going to suffer for your consequences sometimes even after you decide to turn. But 639 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:34,920 at the same time, you know, suffering isn't what's necessary. It's not necessary for repentance 640 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:43,360 and forgiveness. It's it's something that leads you there. And to me, I have no desire. 641 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:49,520 I mean, I don't have any desire to to use or it crosses my mind. But I don't have any 642 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:56,520 desire to use or drink. And it's because I can think about I know what it's going to 643 00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:04,160 cause it's going to cause suffering. And and therefore, you know, I can easily work myself 644 00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,880 through any temptations or thoughts about that. 645 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:14,800 So you're confirming, I think what we said last week, which is suffering is the result 646 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:23,360 of sin, not the result of repentance. Repentance doesn't cause suffering. Sin causes suffering. 647 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:31,160 But that suffering may help lead us to repentance, which brings us then then peace and joy, right? 648 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,800 Yeah, isn't that the way it worked for you? 649 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:42,520 It's exactly how it worked for me was the suffering led me led me to the repentance 650 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:50,480 and the free and the ultimate repaptism. And and then a year later, getting sealed to my 651 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:57,800 wife and my two small children in the temple. And so 652 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,000 well, thank you, Scott. I'm going to turn it back to Scott, the other Scott. 653 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:08,880 Scott, Scott squared here today, Scott. I need you to know one thing. I love you. 654 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:16,760 And it's amazing. It's going to be difficult for me to say this, just because it makes 655 00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:22,520 me emotional. But it's amazing for me to see the Atonement. Let me rephrase that. It's 656 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:28,680 amazing for me to see the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ work through his Atonement 657 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:35,800 in Scott Harman's life. And I I think I've had a front row seat to most of your healing. 658 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,880 And I am so grateful. So so grateful for that. Can you just in closing, maybe share some 659 00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:50,840 sentiments and feelings around what it means to you to be redeemed through his blood? 660 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:59,120 For me to be redeemed through his blood is, I think, you know, it's like I said before 661 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:08,080 was the the fact that I never felt that that the redemption like applied to me. One of 662 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:14,840 the experiences I had in there, which changed me completely was when I was living with this 663 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,960 cellmate that he was there for he had taken two people's lives and he was there on a life 664 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:30,720 sentence. And he was this really, really nice. I mean, at the time I knew him, he was a really 665 01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:38,280 giant, giant man. He's African American guy and super great guy. And he had changed completely. 666 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:46,640 But gentle teddy bear, I guess, and call him and he kept asking me to get him a Book of 667 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:53,960 Mormon because he had watched conference with me one one weekend. And I kept thinking to 668 01:00:53,960 --> 01:01:00,600 myself, well, and I didn't understand the gospel at the time, but I kept thinking, well, 669 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:06,080 and you know, in my mind, I was thinking he's taking two lives. How could he ever be forgiven? 670 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:13,560 And he kept asking me like, can you get me one of those books? And so one night I was 671 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:20,880 thinking and pondering and praying about it. And the spirit bore testimony to me that the 672 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:31,560 Atonement has covered Thomas as well. And it kind of brought me to tears because I was 673 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:38,960 thinking, well, how and and the more I thought about it, I thought, well, if the Atonement 674 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:47,040 covers Thomas, then the Atonement covers me because I've never done I've never done that. 675 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:54,440 And and you know, and so to me, that was where the perfect example for being a being redeemed 676 01:01:54,440 --> 01:02:03,440 by his blood was was that the Atonement covered me. And I realized that at that moment. And 677 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:09,320 I was able to get, you know, be finally go get him a Book of Mormon. And he started coming 678 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:16,840 to Institute and all that. And he probably is still going to church to this day. But 679 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:23,480 I'm grateful to just partially understand the Atonement, you know, like, I feel like 680 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:32,840 it's a real interesting subject to study. And it's hard to it's hard to even understand 681 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:42,080 or bad them really. But but I do believe in it. And I do believe, you know, that I have 682 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:49,080 been redeemed by his blood. And it shows in every aspect of my life and how he's blessed 683 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:55,560 me with with everything that he's blessed me with to be able to walk out of prison in 684 01:02:55,560 --> 01:03:04,720 2010 with nothing. You know, borrowing my dad's my dad let me borrow his clothes. I had nothing 685 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:14,920 and to be where I'm at today with my wife and and my children. And I'm just so grateful 686 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:21,520 for that. Scott, I can tell you, it's an absolute joy, an absolute pleasure for those of us, 687 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:28,120 your friends, and those who know you to see his image in your countenance because it radiates 688 01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:34,080 quite evidently. I love you and I appreciate your time being with us today, Scott. Amen. 689 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:39,480 All right, that that should wrap us up today. Ladies and gentlemen, Scott Harmon, what a 690 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:46,960 great man, what a great example, please take from him the examples, the opportunities to 691 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:54,560 find him, him being our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in whatever prison cell we find ourselves 692 01:03:54,560 --> 01:04:01,560 because we all at times do. And if we can follow Scott's pattern of crying unto him, 693 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:07,840 inviting him into our lives to walk with us daily, making that a repentance, making that 694 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:13,120 a daily repentance and thereby turning to him and putting our back towards all those 695 01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:18,840 things that eliminate the spirit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father 696 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:23,040 and the spirit of the Holy Ghost to be with us in our lives constantly. Thanks for being 697 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,880 with us today. We look forward to being with you again next week. Know that he loves you 698 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:41,400 and that he has redeemed you through his blood.