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Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope,

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healing and redemption through the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ. I am Scott Durfee

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and I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David Durfee.

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Thank you Scott. Good morning everyone. Hope that you are doing well and excited to talk more about

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faith and faith in Jesus Christ today. So our last podcast we did just that and this

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will be an extension obviously of that one. In fact as you have noticed each of these

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podcasts sort of build one on the other and so if you are just joining us welcome. We want to say

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welcome to you and encourage you if you feel so inclined. In fact we would actually strongly

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encourage you to go back to the very beginning of this podcast series because they really do kind of

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one again builds on the other. So keep that in mind this is going to be episode 15 coming out

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this week. We want to thank everybody for your emails. We have received a couple of really great

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emails recently and we will be addressing some of the questions that have been brought up in future

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podcasts and I want to just say thanks for that. As a reminder you can send questions and comments

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and any other correspondence that you would like to convey to us. We welcome it. In fact we encourage

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it and that can be done at our email address which is he redeems us at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com.

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So last week Dave we talked about as you mentioned faith. Some of the things that we brought up was

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we remember Elder Patrick Kieran's talk and about how he talked about how each of us and some of us

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are survivors and we have our own survival story. We talked about focus. Dave you talked about how

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do we change our focus to Christ and to look unto him and every thought. We talked about how from

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that Doctrine and Covenants scripture section six. Section six. You know it's a very important

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six. You know we should look unto Christ and every thought. We talked about faith and that's the

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beginning of the Doctrine of Christ. You asked our listeners and I hope that this has happened.

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You asked them that what is your level of faith and that should be something that we should consider

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and contemplate and where is our focus and then you offered a challenge Dave and it was fairly

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early on in the podcast last week. You issued a challenge to each of us to think about what can

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I do daily to change my focus. What can I do daily to change my faith and you know as we move today

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into as we move today into an extension of that stuff. I just want to turn the time to you David

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to kind of get us rocking and rolling with this. To kind of I turn the time to you David to kind of

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get us moving in the right direction and to invite the Spirit as we begin a further discussion along

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these lines. Well it's certainly a spiritual discussion for sure and the Spirit the Holy Spirit

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is certainly the key to increasing our faith. We keep saying Scott that the Holy Ghost is the

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messenger and the administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life and it's through the power

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and gift of the Holy Ghost that we receive faith in our life. Faith ultimately is a gift, a gift of

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the Spirit that's described in Doctrine and Covenants section 46, Moroni 10, in Corinthians.

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Faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit, one of the first gifts of the Spirit that's mentioned in

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all of those scriptures. I think it's really important that we maybe begin just briefly.

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You said that all these podcasts kind of build on each other and I've been thinking

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the last few days about that and about how we can't forget in seeking to increase our faith

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and to build our faith. It's really important that we remember the things that we have talked about

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in the past such as our pre-mortal existence and who we are really as sons and daughters of God.

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That's an important foundation in order to increase our faith. It's important that we

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understand that the plan of redemption includes the fall of all mankind and that we are grateful

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for the fall and we're grateful for mortality and we're grateful for the law of opposition and

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all that goes with that and that we accept that and that's important as a foundation to

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build on to increase our faith. It's critical that we understand our need, that we feel

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that our dependence upon Jesus Christ and his atonement, that we understand the events

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of the atonement of Christ and the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ, our Savior.

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Those are all fundamental foundational stones, rocks upon which we need to build and increase

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our faith. Faith doesn't stand alone. It's built upon those foundations of doctrine, those points

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of doctrine and that's where we must kind of begin and end our discussion of faith.

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Today we're going to, faith in and of itself is a deep subject for sure and we can make several

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podcasts. There could be several episodes but we could do a whole podcast entitled Faith or Faith

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in Christ or Faith in the Name of Christ and that could go for a long time just talking about what

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faith is, the blessings of faith and how we can obtain it and why it's important. So last time

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we kind of talked about faith, God, kind of in the general, right? We talked about that there are

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levels of faith. You can never speak of faith as though it's something you either have or that you

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don't have. We all have faith. Everyone has faith. Even atheists have faith. We all have faith.

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Everyone has faith. Even atheists have faith. I don't know what they believe in but everyone has

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beliefs and that's the lowest level of faith. Whatever you believe, that's faith. There's true

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faith and there's false faith. There's probably good faith and there's bad faith but faith in a

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religious sense, according to the lectures on faith, faith is the first principle of religion.

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Now we know that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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So faith in the general can mean a lot of different things. Faith in God is kind of in the general.

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Faith in Jesus Christ is what leads us to salvation and exaltation.

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And that's where we'll kind of focus today. Well, you know, I've had a lot of conversations

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since we talked last, some with people who listen to our podcast and others who are just

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struggling with faith of any kind. I had a conversation fairly recently. I actually went

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golfing with a gentleman fairly recently who has really been just struggling and I talked to him

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and he said it was okay that I share this. But you, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I went golfing.

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You went golfing and you didn't invite me. I would like to know how many times you've been

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recently without that invitation. Well, you're busier than I am. I'm retired and I haven't time.

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So yeah, I was golfing and we were talking about this, this faith and he has had a similar path

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that I have had and acknowledged a knowledge of and a testimony of the gospel throughout his life,

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but mentioned and I have been there too and I think probably all of us have that just mentioned

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that there's just some times when that faith is just not as evident in his life as he would like

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it to be or as others maybe as it were would like it to be spouses, children, children,

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like it to be spouses, children, ecclesiastical leaders, whatever the case may be, friends.

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And so this struggle of faith and can become something that can sometimes trip us up.

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And I believe, Dave, that there are times when we really have more faith than we give ourselves

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credit for. I believe there are times when there is a deeper faith abiding within us than the enemy

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or the adversary would like for us to acknowledge. And so throws up, we talked last week about how

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the adversary will sometimes throw walls up at us to prevent our progression and moving towards

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having a more perfect relationship and a deeper experience with the spirit of the Holy Ghost in

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our lives that you sometimes can get thrown up. And I think that this can be a situation where

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that can surely happen, where we doubt our faith, where something will come up and the whisperings

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of the adversary might be, yeah, but that's not really. So I think that as we start to and develop

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more around this and we open our hearts and listen through the spirit to the things that we're going

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to be talking about and learning today, that we should all be edified as we begin to develop

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more faith. And I think we'll probably talk about, you talked about it last week, that there's a

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spiraling up with faith. I think we'll probably get into some of that again today, but that's been

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great. And there can be a spiraling down too, Scott, depending on again the things that we

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are focused on. I think President Nelson has acknowledged that and has invited us, encouraged

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us not to discount the faith that we have and that whatever faith we have, we can build on it.

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I've always been touched by the prayer about the ancient apostles when they said, increase our

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faith. You know, I just think about that prayer often and I utter that expression in my prayers

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as well. Increase my faith. I hope that all of our listeners and that you and me and our family

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members, all are willing to really examine what they believe in. And I think that if they did,

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they would see that they had maybe more faith than they thought they had. And then if they were

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really in a circumstance where they needed to call up on faith, that maybe there's even a greater

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reserve or reservoir of faith than they think they have.

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Yeah, I like that. I like how you refer to it as a reserve of faith than we think we might have.

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I believe that's true. Yeah. And that daily, I think by the things that we do, the things that

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we focus on, we build that reserve or reservoir. I think of it as a reservoir, building up this

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reservoir of faith. And here we are in such a great drought out here in the West, and our

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reservoirs aren't as full as they should be because not rain. And I think of rain as being

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the Word of God, the living water. We need to get more of that in our life. But in regards to how

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today we should talk about how we can increase our faith. What is required of us? What can we do to

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grow our faith, knowing that's a gift of the Spirit? But what can we do? What choices can we make?

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I've always been touched by a treatise on faith that was written by the early

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brethren of the Restoration. Many people point to Sidney Rigdon as being a major author. I'm sure

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Orson Pratt, I'm sure Joseph Smith, partly Pete Pratt, and many of the other brethren,

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Edward Partridge and others, helped to write what is called the Lectures on Faith

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in the 1833 School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio. And I remember finding that on my mission

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and reading it for the first time 40-something years ago, and how that changed my life,

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and it continues to bless my life. The Lectures on Faith consist of seven lectures, Scott.

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The first lecture kind of describes what faith is, how it's the first principle of religion,

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that it's a principle of action, and that it's a principle of power. And after describing what

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faith is, Lectures 2 through 5 discuss the character, attributes, and perfections of God,

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and Lecture 6 talks about how we can know that the life that we are pursuing is pleasing to God,

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and Lecture 7 describes the joys, the benefits, the results, and blessings of faith.

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But in these Lectures on Faith, it describes the three things that are required for us

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to be able to obtain the faith of the ancients, to be able to, with an eye of faith, see God and

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see us in the presence of God, and be able to actually penetrate the veil or open the veil.

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And how can we obtain the faith of the ancients, including those who were able to see God?

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Well, it says that there are three things required. One, that we need to believe that there is a God.

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It starts with belief, just a mere belief. You talked about the friend that you went golfing

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with, and how our faith kind of varies, and sometimes it's just a little stronger than others,

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and oftentimes I think that that's related to our desires, which is related to our gratitude.

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There is, again, kind of these building blocks. Gratitude is the beginning of desire,

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and if our desires are weak, that means we're lacking in gratitude. So, what's the level of my

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gratitude? That will increase my desire, and my desires increase my faith. Those are connected,

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desires and faith. Alma connects them in Alma chapter 32. If you only have a desire to believe,

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he says. Well, that's the first requirement of faith, is if you only have a desire to believe

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in God, believe in God. Yeah, but you mentioned that that desire comes from gratitude,

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and that gratitude must come from something else, which leads into the second point that you're

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about to make here. Yes, thank you, Scott. It has to do with knowledge. Knowledge and understanding

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of God's attributes, perfections, and character. I think the order in elections of faith are

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we must know His character, perfections, and attributes. That includes knowing what He was

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willing to do for us, knowing how much He loves us. That does increase my gratitude, which increases

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my desire, which increases my faith. Part of this spiraling upward helix. So, we need to know His

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character, attributes, and perfection, and lectures two through five of the lectures on faith talk

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about the characters and attributes of God. What would you suppose are some of the characters,

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attributes of God, Scott? Well, the characters, perfections, and attributes of God are the very

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things that, you know, as we go back to episode two, three, four, and we talk about how important

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it is to know Him. You know, we get to know those as we study Him, as we spend time, as we study the

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Scriptures, as we spend time with Him, wherever that may be. That temple, the sacrament table,

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etc. And what we learn there is, number one, to me, the biggest character, attribute, and perfection

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of God is His love for His children. Yeah. I mean, that's just obviously evident in all, once we tune

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our spiritual eyes to see, that becomes pretty evident in a lot of things in our lives. Now,

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there will be people that will say, yeah, but if you knew what was going on in my life, you may not

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be able to say that. And to that I would answer, well, yeah, I can still say that because I've also

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had those times in my life when I didn't have this going on. But the biggest character and perfection

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and attribute of God is love, forgiveness, understanding, complete empathy, and so on. All

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those great and wonderful things that we sometimes strive and fail to achieve in our own lives, Dave,

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I think those are some of the things that we could be referring to here. Yeah, absolutely. And the

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lectures on faith describe some of those. And it likes to focus on the mercy of God, the justice of

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God, the love of God. It talks about how God is a God of truth, that God is the same yesterday, today,

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and forever, that He is merciful and gracious, that He is slow to anger. All of those are described

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in the lectures on faith, two through five, really. I especially love lecture three on that. But

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God has spoken, Scott. If we want to know God and we want to know His character, perfections,

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and attribute, or we want to know the character, perfections, and attributes of Jesus Christ,

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which are the same as God's. If you've seen me, Jesus said, you've seen the Father. We have to

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not only know what they say, what they've taught, which is to come to a deeper understanding,

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appreciation, and gratitude for the Scriptures, but we need to come to know what they've done,

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what they did for us. And that includes the creation, Scott. That's another pillar of the

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plan of redemption that we haven't talked probably enough about. To appreciate and feel gratitude

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for God's creations. I think my faith has really increased when I go into the mountains and when I

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ponder the creations of God, and to be able to do the things that we're able to do in this world and

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the beauties of it. That increases my gratitude and my desires to know Him. So, knowing what

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they've done, knowing what they've said, knowing about Jesus's, our Savior's sacrifice, our Redeemer's

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willingness to suffer for us, to go to the Garden of Gethsemane again, to stand at the foot of the

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cross, to understand what they've done, that increases our knowledge of understanding the

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character, perfections, and attributes. And that's a requirement, really, to increase our faith.

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That's the second requirement. The third is really the key to develop, I think, the faith of power.

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And again, there are levels of faith, and to be able to obtain that faith of power or come close,

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it's not going to be possible, I don't think here in mortality, to obtain the faith of God. By the

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way, God has faith. I used to ask my students, how many of you, God knows all things, you know,

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I'd kind of set them up. And I'd say, God knows all things, right? He knows all things from beginning

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to end. He has perfect knowledge. Therefore, does He have faith? And over half my students would say,

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no, He doesn't need faith. Well, that's a lack of understanding His character, perfections,

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and attributes. God absolutely has faith, and knowledge is actually one of the requirements

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of faith. Not only to know His character, perfections, and attributes is required to have

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faith, but we must know and have the knowledge that the life which we are pursuing is pleasing

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to God, that we know that we are living according to the will of God, that we know that our will has

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been swallowed up in His will. When we obtain that knowledge, then we can have the faith of power

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that I think we read last week, described by Jacob in Jacob chapter 4 verse 6, where he said,

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we would command that even the mountains, the trees, and the seas would obey us.

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Well, you don't just command a mountain to move, to show off, or to impress somebody, or to…

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To satisfy a sign seeker.

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Yeah, or your pride. You would only move a mountain or a tree or command the seas

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command the seas because it was the will of God. It's in 3rd in Helaman, I think it's Helaman chapter

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10, Scott, where this level of faith, this faith of power is described in these verses. So, let's go

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to Helaman 10 verses 4 and 5 and begin to read for just a minute. Do you have that?

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I can get it.

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Uh, so…

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I got it.

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This is describing Nephi the 3rd, the son of Helaman, and his faith. And let's read

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Helaman chapter 10 verses 4 through 6, Scott. And again, everyone, this is a great description,

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I think one of the best in the scriptures on what I would consider to be the level that I call the

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faith of power. So, this is Helaman chapter 10 verses 4 through 6.

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Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done. For I have beheld how thou hast

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with unwearing… This is a hard word. Unwearingness declared the word which I have given unto thee,

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unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life,

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but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

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Do you see… What keys do you see in that verse, Scott, in regards to

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keys to obtain the faith of power, which he's going to describe here in a moment?

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Yeah, so he says, thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life,

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but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

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There you go.

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Yeah. Yeah. And then in 5 it goes on, and now, because thou hast done this,

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with such unwearingness, behold, I will bless thee forever, and I will make thee mighty in word,

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and in deed, in faith, and in works.

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Notice, it's a gift of the Spirit.

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I will make thee mighty in faith.

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Okay. Yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word,

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for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

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So, in essence, he's saying, anything you ask for, Nephi, I'll give it to thee.

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Anything that thou ask for, anything that thou commands, it will happen.

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I will cause it to happen. And all of this because why?

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Because you wouldn't ask for anything that was contrary to my will.

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Your will, Nephi, has been swallowed up in my will.

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In my own.

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And then look at this description of the faith of power in verse 6.

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Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God.

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Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels,

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that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine,

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and with pestilence, and with destruction according to the wickedness of this people.

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And look at verse 7.

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Behold, I give unto you power that what...

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Okay, whatever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven, and thus shall ye have power.

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So, this faith of power can only be received as a gift from God

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through the atonement of Jesus Christ, allowing us strength to have our will swallowed up

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in the will of God.

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I just ask all of us, you know, if we were to really ponder the question,

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is my... is the course of my life that I am pursuing, is it pleasing to God?

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That's a question we should really contemplate, and we should really ask ourselves,

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as the brethren have asked us, what do we need to start doing,

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and what do we need to stop doing,

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and what do we need to stop doing in order for our will to be swallowed up in the will of God,

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in order to know that the course of the life that we are pursuing is pleasing to God.

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When we do that, we can begin to obtain the faith of power,

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and the faith of power results in miracles, Scott.

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You've had... you've seen miracles in your life.

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Yeah, absolutely, and I was just going to say, you know, one of the things,

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you know, in my experience, and I've mentioned this, you know, throughout this podcast,

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this is not something I wear as a badge of honor, but it is part of my journey,

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part of my life, and part of my learning experience,

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is that I have 23 years of continuous sobriety from drugs and alcohol,

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because of... I participate in a recovery program, and I still do, and as part of that recovery

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program, I get an opportunity to be around and associate with, not just for my own sake,

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but for the help and sake of others, which is step 12.

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It's not a selfishness thing. It is actually one of the steps that we do help others

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and share this experience and give hope to those that are downtrodden.

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That was extended to me really early on. In fact, it was a really important person.

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It was my stake president who sent me, I think I may have mentioned this, who sent me

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to meetings to get help to recover, recovery meetings, and I still participate, as I mentioned.

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One of the things, though, that I often... and I've mentioned this,

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myself, and I don't think alcoholics and addicts and those who are suffering from other addictions

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and mental issues and things of this nature, I don't think that we have a corner on the

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market with this stuff. I think people who don't necessarily struggle with these things

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also can sometimes wonder this same thing. I think that we look at sometimes this faith,

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and we think, I know I have, when we think this, we think that we have to be able to

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recover. I think that sometimes we look at it and think, yeah, this is great, and I believe

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that there's a God, and I believe that he has love for his people, and I believe that he can heal.

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And I think I mentioned this last time, but as part of some of the things that we say there

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is that we believe that God could and would if he were sought. And I have always believed

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that God could and would if he were sought. We received an email just the other day from

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a guy who said the same thing. All my life I've had a testimony. All my life I've had a belief,

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to a degree, sometimes stronger, sometimes not as strong. But oftentimes as humans,

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in our humanness, and again, we don't have to be the vilest of sinners to have these feelings,

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but we sometimes believe that these things are important and achievable, but I don't know if I

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would achieve those things, maybe achievable by others. I always thought, and I mentioned this,

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I always knew God could and would if he were sought. He could for you if you sought him.

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He could for you if you believed him. But he wouldn't do that for me because I had made too

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many mistakes. I had gone too far. I had a certain amount of light that I had gone contrary to my

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integrity for. And so because of that, I felt like that there was a punishment attached or a

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holding attached that would sometimes keep that from being in my life. So let me ask you a question,

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Scott, about that. So what was lacking in your understanding or knowledge

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to keep you from the level of faith necessary to be able to be transformed or to make those changes

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in your life? Yeah, there's two things, but really only one that was lacking. And this is something

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that I have thought about throughout my life or throughout this process in my life. The main thing

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that was lacking was a clear and concise understanding of who he is. I didn't really

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know him the way that I needed to know him. Who did you think he was? I thought that he was somebody

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for you that would be loving and accepting, but for somebody for me, because I had made so many

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mistakes that I needed to pay. And we're going to get into that when we talk about repentance,

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what repentance is and what it's not. But I might just preface that discussion by saying that I

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believed that repentance was punishment. I believed that I needed to continually be punished,

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continually be punished and repunished for the things that I had done. I felt like there were

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never enough stripes. I felt like that Christ's blood was more, that he had blood more for me

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than he had for others. And that for some reason, I needed to be sorry for that. I needed to pay for

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that and I needed to be punished for that. That's not how I see it today. So how's your knowledge

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and understanding changed, number one? And number two, what changed it? Yeah, so let me answer number

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two first. So what changed it was a deep desire to have it changed. And these follow the steps that

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have been laid out, both in the lectures on faith and what we've been talking about here.

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But that was the first one was to have a desire. The second one was to have a deeper gratitude.

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And you know, this is one thing when I have guys that I sponsor call me and I don't have an answer

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because there are questions in life that we just don't know the answers for each other on. But

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there is always one answer and that is, have I considered what I'm grateful for today?

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And as I dive into that gratitude, I have to, in order for me to have that gratitude, David,

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what I have to do is I have to, gratitude for what? Well, if I'm going to have gratitude for

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my step two, which is came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity.

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And then step three, where I make a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God,

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as I have come to understand him, that requires me to come to know him. And we talked about this,

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and I don't remember for sure what episode it was, but I know grandpa Durfee real well,

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because I spent time with him. I spent time camping with him, fishing with him,

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working at the dry cleaners, begrudgingly sure, but working there, he fired me a few times.

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But I got to know this guy, especially when I was going through really difficult times in my life,

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and I could go knock on his door in the middle of the night or call, and he would be willing to get

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up and sit and talk with me and counsel and love. And I knew him because I spent time with him.

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In order for me to know what I need to know about my faith in my heavenly father and in the Lord

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Jesus Christ's power through his atonement, I need to come to know him and spend and invest the time

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to do it through study, through prayer, and every other thing.

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Yeah, okay. You know, it strikes me that another kind of prerequisite that Alma discusses in Alma

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chapter 32 with the apostate Zoramites, and if you remember, he's on this hill of Oneida, and he's

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on this hill of Oneida, and these outcasts, apostate Zoramites, come to him because they've

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been cast out of their, they've lost and been cast out by the more self-righteous Zoramites.

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And so they come to him and he tells them, you know, it's really good that you've been

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compelled to be humble. I think humility, Scott, is one of the prerequisites also to faith that

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maybe we should just pause on for just a moment here. And he describes in Alma chapter 32,

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it's good that you are compelled to be humble, but it would have been better if you would have been

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humble without being compelled to be humble because of the word. I really think that in

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your process, and maybe you can describe it to us, is what happened in your life?

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Were you compelled to be humble? Had you hit rock, the proverbial rock bottom,

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and you were compelled to be humble? Or did you become humble through the word?

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And then maybe you can talk about this a little bit with your experience. Being compelled to be

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humble is a good thing for those who maybe have to hit rock bottom, but it doesn't last. Unless one

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who may be compelled to be humble eventually builds their humility upon the word and that they

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understand how Christ hit rock bottom until they understand the rock bottom that Christ went through

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in Gethsemane and on the cross, until the source of their humility is Jesus Christ and his rock

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bottom, it doesn't transform them. Can you talk about that? Yeah, that's actually 100% accurate.

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So let's talk about this compelled first. So in my situation, and I can generally speak for all

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alcoholics, addicts, anybody else, and when I use the word addict, I can be talking about behavioral

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addictions as well as chemical addictions. But this compelling to be humbled, I think all of us are,

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to a degree, because if it wasn't for a rock bottom, that rock bottom is the compelling

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component of it. Now, there's different ways to be compelled, right? Right, many ways.

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There's many ways to be compelled. One way to be compelled, and I like to think that this is the

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way I was compelled, is that I just couldn't function anymore. I was doing okay physically.

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On the outward, it looked okay. Well, I think it did. It probably didn't. You're faking it.

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Yeah, I was really faking it. Living a good double life. I had a lot of success

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in my work. I was doing okay on the outside. Inside, I was an absolute train wreck. I was hollow.

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I was empty. I had pushed everything away. I mean, I had gone on a mission. I had served the Lord.

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I don't ever remember a time in my life when I didn't have a testimony of the Lord, Savior,

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Jesus Christ. I just don't ever remember a time when I didn't believe it. Well, keep your thought.

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You were born with that. I know. You know, I think our listeners need to understand something

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about faith, and that is that we developed exceedingly great faith, according to Alma,

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in Alma chapter 13, in the pre-mortal existence, in the first place. We were born with faith.

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Faith is something that is part of our being. Unless we push it, disguise it, bury it,

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Satan deceives us, all of us have faith. Every human being on this earth, Scott, I believe,

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not only have the light of Christ, but to some degree or another, they have faith. They were

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born with faith. Their spirit was filled with faith when we came to this earth. So, when you say,

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I always had faith, I think that's true for every human being on this earth.

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Yeah, I do too. And I have my patriarchal blessing that I refer to very frequently now,

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and it talks about that very thing. It talks about how I have brought with me, because of my

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valor there, many gifts, and I believe that was one of those. I've never worked hard to obtain

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a testimony of the truthfulness of the restoration of the gospel, and especially of Jesus Christ

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himself. I've never had to work hard for that. And when I say work hard for that, I mean, I've had to

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work hard for it. Sure. And when you hear the rest of what I'm going to say, you're going to say,

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oh yeah, Scott, you definitely worked hard for that. But in the conventional sense, I didn't have to

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go through what I hear a lot of folks go through, right? I knew the Book of Mormon was true before

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I even read it. I just knew it was. I knew that God loved me before I can even remember knowing

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about love. But I came to question it later because of the stuff that I had done. And so,

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you know, we talk about rock bottom, and rock bottom is not a place. It's a choice. You know,

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we come to many opportunities for rock bottom in our life. I speak and have the opportunity to speak

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very frequently in recovery situations, some with the church through the addiction recovery program

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for the church. Deb and I, my wife and I served for 10 years as facilitators, both in that. Most of

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that time separate, but for the last five years for each of us, we got to serve together at a seminary

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building here in Orem, Utah, and take the message of hope, healing, and comfort through the Atonement

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of Jesus Christ there as part of the recovery program. But what I have come to believe,

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through my experience, through 20-something years of experience of helping and experiencing it in

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my own life, is that when we are at a rock bottom, we get to make that choice by simply putting down

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the shovel and quit digging that hole deeper, and then turning our will and life over to the care

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of God as we understand Him, like we're talking about here. So, you know, all three of these,

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compelled, sure, or through the Word, that also comes. And I think that we can have both. I think

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that we can be compelled, and also through the Word of Christ, and also through the Word,

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have this faith brought into our lives that will bring us closer to God and help that ascension

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of our spiritual being as we go through life, Dave. Well, as I'm listening to you, again,

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I'm picturing Alma's description in Alma 32 of being compelled to be humble, and you described it

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as taking the shovel out of our hand or digging a hole. And I'm sitting here thinking, wow,

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Alma compared the Word, receiving the Word, to planting a seed. Right. You know, I think that

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so many of us, unfortunately in this life, maybe most of us or all of us to some degree or another,

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are digging holes for ourselves when we should be planting seeds or the Word in our hearts. Yeah.

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I agree. And it's just that simple shift. It's just that simple shift. You know, if I'm compelled,

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and again, I believe that in my situation, I don't believe everybody's compelled, but I believe that

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in my situation in that part of our culture and that part of our lives, I believe there's rarely,

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I've never seen an exception, and there may be those that came without somehow being compelled,

386
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:46,160
because I believe that even, I told somebody just the other day, literally this week, talking to

387
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:52,160
somebody, he's saying, and this is not the one that I talked to you earlier about, Dave, but somebody

388
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,200
else, we were having this discussion, and he was just saying, I just don't think I can quit drinking.

389
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:03,760
I'm going to go back and I'm going to start drinking. And will it still be here if I need it

390
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:10,960
later? And we always say, you know, if you go back out, the bottle will drive you back. And that's

391
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,360
the compelling part of it, right? Because it never gets better. It always gets worse. It's a disease,

392
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:21,200
a progression, and it gets bad, it gets worse, it gets worse, and it continues down the road.

393
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,400
But it's definitely not the bottle. It's definitely not the bottle.

394
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,520
It's the shovel. It's the shovel. It's your own digging.

395
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:37,360
And that's the point. The bottle is the shovel in this situation, and the drug is the shovel,

396
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:44,080
and the cutting habit is the shovel, and the bulimia, and the anorexia, and the pornography

397
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,000
addiction, and all those other things that we use. Anger. Even anger can be.

398
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:55,600
Anger, even manipulation, even controlling. I mean, there's so many things, whatever it is,

399
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,440
in our lives that take us away from being completely aligned with our Heavenly Father.

400
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,080
That is the shovel. Even harboring bitterness.

401
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,880
Resentment. Resentment,

402
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,640
not forgiving, or not repenting, or all of those things.

403
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Yeah. You know, and then on the flip side of the coin, that shovel can be pride. That shovel can

404
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:26,480
be success. Because those can be rock bottoms too. Those are what we call high-level rock bottoms.

405
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,640
But those things can too divert us and distract us from the Spirit.

406
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:38,720
Well, we need to just take the shovel and start planting seeds.

407
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,400
Yeah. Instead of digging holes.

408
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,320
Instead of digging holes. Yeah.

409
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,600
Empty holes that we find ourselves.

410
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,240
Right. Instead of digging holes to hide in, we plant seeds to grow from.

411
00:45:52,240 --> 00:46:00,240
Yeah. There you go. Well, I love that. And everyone should maybe read or reread again,

412
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:09,040
over and over again, Alma chapter 32, which is an amazing treatise on faith, what it is. And then

413
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:17,040
really, Alma 33, which is the Zoramite say, well, how can I plant the word in my heart?

414
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,240
Yeah. They ask that question.

415
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:25,600
Yeah. And I love Alma chapter 33, where he talks about, well, you need to first understand

416
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:33,520
that God offers mercy. And he quotes, I think, is at Zenos, that God is angry with us because we do

417
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:40,160
not understand his mercy, which Scott in lectures on faith is one of the six attributes they

418
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:51,360
describe in that we must understand to have faith. We must begin that God has mercy, that God has

419
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:59,280
love, that he loves us, and that he's merciful. And then ultimately in chapter 33, I think it's

420
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:07,360
about verse 22, where he says, and this is the word that you must plant in your heart, which is

421
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:14,480
Jesus Christ and him crucified. Right. I just really love that. And that's where we eventually,

422
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:23,120
we all need to get in order to have the faith of power, not just to perform, not just to conform,

423
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:29,760
but to be transformed. We need the power of faith in Christ.

424
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,440
I want to, Dave, let me read that. I want to read that verse.

425
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,040
Oh, please. And Alma 33.

426
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:36,960
33, and it's verse 23.

427
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:37,840
23. Yeah.

428
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,120
Read 22 and 23.

429
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:39,920
Okay. All right.

430
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,920
I love both those verses.

431
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,240
So this, let me start with-

432
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:50,720
And he compares it, right, to the, he compares it to the serpent. All you got to do is look up,

433
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:53,760
look up and believe and you'll be saved.

434
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,360
So the serpent, meaning the serpent on the staff.

435
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,240
The brass serpent.

436
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,400
Yeah, the brass serpent for the children of Israel. That's right. While they wandered for

437
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:08,640
40 years when it should have been an 11 day journey. So if so, this is verse 22,

438
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,840
if so, who shall come unto you? But if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe

439
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:19,920
in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people and that he shall suffer and be

440
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:25,120
redeemed from the dead. And that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins and that he shall

441
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:30,640
rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand

442
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:37,040
before him to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works. And now behold,

443
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,400
brethren, my brethren, I desire that you shall plant this word-

444
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,200
This word.

445
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:42,240
This word.

446
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,040
What's that word?

447
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,520
Yeah. What is this word? So this word is-

448
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:56,080
Christ, his redemption, his sacrifice, his infinite, intimate atonement for each of us. This word.

449
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,480
Right. Going back again to John 1.

450
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,720
Plant this word in your hearts.

451
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:05,520
Let me do that again. And now, my brethren, I desire that you shall plant this word in your hearts.

452
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:12,720
And as it beginneth to swell, even so, nourish it by your faith. That's so important. That

453
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:14,400
component, that part of it is-

454
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,120
That's the healing.

455
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,160
That's right. Yeah.

456
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:22,480
It continues to grow and grow. By our faith, it grows. Our faith grows. By our faith, it grows.

457
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:28,400
Yeah. And faith is an action word here too, but faith is not. So it's saying nourish it by your

458
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,840
faith. In other words, because of my faith, I will nourish it.

459
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:32,340
Yeah.

460
00:49:32,340 --> 00:49:33,520
Yeah. Okay.

461
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,280
Faith requires exertion.

462
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:35,760
That's right.

463
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:36,480
It requires work.

464
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,320
And so let's talk about what some of that work could be right here. So if I'm going to nourish

465
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,880
my faith, I don't want to leave anybody hanging on, okay, so how do I nourish my faith? Well,

466
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,480
how would you nourish your faith? For me, what that looks like is-

467
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:51,920
Go ahead.

468
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:52,720
Let's pause for a minute.

469
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:53,280
Yeah.

470
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,000
So this morning, in preparation for this, I've been thinking so much about

471
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:06,320
President Nelson's talk, given on Easter Sunday of 2021 on the faith to move mountains.

472
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:15,440
And he gives us a five-step approach to being able to have the faith of power. In fact, he says,

473
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:23,920
faith in Jesus Christ is the foundation of all belief and the conduit of divine power in our life.

474
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:35,840
And then it is our faith that unlocks the power of God in our lives. And then when Lord understands

475
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:42,320
our mortal weakness, we all falter at times, but he also knows of our great potential. The Lord does

476
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:51,200
not require perfect faith for us to have access to his perfect power. Anyway, five things that he

477
00:50:51,200 --> 00:51:00,640
says, I'm quoting now, may I offer five suggestions to help you develop that faith and trust? First,

478
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:09,120
study, become an engaged learner, immerse yourself in the scriptures to better understand Christ's

479
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:16,320
mission and ministry. And then he says some other things about that. Second, choose to believe in

480
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:22,080
Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God, the Father and his beloved Son, or the validity of the

481
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:30,240
restoration or veracity of Joseph Smith's divine calling as a prophet, choose, choose to believe

482
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:40,320
and stay faithful and take your questions to the Lord. Anyway, he talks about that. So choose to

483
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,960
believe. Okay, let me, let me just restart in 23, just so we can keep the train of thought here.

484
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,880
And now my brother and I desire that I desire that you shall plant this word, this word in your

485
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:57,920
hearts. And as it beginneth to swell, even so nourish it by your faith. Well, third,

486
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:04,640
sorry, Scott. Oh, you're good. Third, President Nelson says act in faith. Yeah. So that's,

487
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:14,160
yep, there you go. And behold, it will become a tree springing up in you, springing up in you,

488
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,880
yeah, right, unto everlasting life. And so how would that, I'm not done with the verse, I'm

489
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:26,240
going to come back, but I just want to comment on that. How awesome would that be to have that

490
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:34,560
tree springing up in me unto everlasting life? And not just, so what that does is that gives me

491
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:40,160
everlasting life, but I also read that to say that I will have that throughout my life everlastingly.

492
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:49,680
Well, amen. And by the way, this is definitely a fruit tree. It's not a pine tree. Right. It's

493
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:56,800
not a cottonwood. Yeah. And it's not a barren fig tree. This is a fruit tree. Right. And the fruit

494
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:06,160
is delicious. And it replaces our need for all of the other things that our life are negatively

495
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:12,800
filled with. Yeah. So I love that. And then, may God grant unto you that your burdens

496
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:21,360
may be light. Let me rephrase, let me reemphasize that. And then, only then, and then may God grant

497
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:30,320
unto you that your burdens may be light through the joy of his son and even all this can ye do

498
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:38,640
if you will. Yeah. It's a choice. Amen. Elder Anderson said faith is a choice. President Nelson

499
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:44,800
has said that as well. And fourth, in this list of five things, President Nelson tells us we should

500
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:50,240
do to increase our faith in Jesus Christ and be able to access the power of Jesus Christ through

501
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:58,000
his atonement. Fourth, partake of the sacred ordinances worthily. Ordinances unlock the power

502
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:08,800
of God in your life. And fifth, ask your heavenly father in the name of Jesus Christ for help.

503
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:19,440
That prayer of please, please increase my faith. Right. Well, I think that's a pretty good list

504
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:27,920
of five things that we can all focus on and go back and review President Nelson's talk on the

505
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:36,560
Faith to Move Mountains April 2021 General Conference. And to really ponder it and to

506
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:48,160
and to really ponder it and to try to focus, change again our focus, and to be more intent.

507
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:56,400
Faith just doesn't come. No. It's not something that we just have or that we don't have, Scott.

508
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:04,560
Faith requires work. Yeah, we can't even just will it. We can't just will ourselves to have faith.

509
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,360
I mean, there's a step. I mean, it's important that we do have the willingness and that we do want to

510
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:15,040
and that and all that. But it definitely requires work. You know, I've heard I've lived long enough

511
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:26,080
to hear this from several different individuals who have said to me or to others, and I'm not

512
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:34,720
any great example of this, but I wished I had your faith. Yeah. I wish I had their faith.

513
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:43,520
I wish I had that kind of faith. I always think about that and I always think, oh man, that's so

514
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:57,680
weak. Yeah, I agree. Do we have any idea of what it took Jesus Christ to have the faith that he had

515
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:07,040
in his father? Do we have any idea of the work, the intensity of effort, the price paid, the intentional

516
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:17,680
choices and the motivation it took, his desires and his humility and his love and all that was

517
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:27,520
required for Jesus Christ to be able to pray in Gethsemane, nevertheless not as I will, but as

518
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:40,080
thou wilt. Thy will be done, he prayed. Do we have any idea? Think of that as the ultimate example

519
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:48,800
of the level of faith that we must all come to in our lives. And I think again of Elder Bednar's

520
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:57,760
example of the young man who he calls John in his great talk. I think it was a worldwide young adult

521
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:03,360
devotional when he describes this young man just home from his mission, this good

522
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:13,360
man living a righteous life, married for only a few weeks, and he's diagnosed with cancer and

523
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:23,920
it's pretty bleak. I think there's like a 70% chance of this being terminal. And he's going to

524
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:31,840
give the young man a blessing and then he asks him the question, before I give you this blessing,

525
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:42,400
I have to ask you, do you have the faith not to be healed? In other words, do you have the faith

526
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:56,000
to accept or do the will of God according to his will and not your own? Like Nephi in,

527
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:07,440
third Nephi in Helaman, Nephi the third in Helaman. Do we have that faith where anything that we ask

528
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:13,120
will be according to the will of God? And how do we obtain that, Scott? I think it's described in

529
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:19,520
Doctrine and Covenants, section 46 on the gifts of the Spirit, where we're told that we should pray

530
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:25,920
according to the Spirit and that the Spirit will give us utterance and the Spirit will teach us

531
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:32,320
what we should pray for. I don't know, you've probably had this experience as well. I know

532
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:39,440
many of our listeners probably have too. Where in your prayers you're told what to pray for.

533
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:48,080
When we can reach that level of the power of prayer in our life, where God through his Spirit

534
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:57,120
teaches us what we should pray for, we'll know that we are not asking according to our will,

535
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:04,560
but we are asking according to his will. Which takes us to the third point of what we talked

536
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:10,720
about, what the lectures on faith talk about, right? Which is the final point, which is to have

537
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:17,840
our will swallowed up by him. And that is an example of when we can see that happening actually

538
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:24,720
in our lives. And again, that to have our will and his will aligned requires all of the other

539
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:30,480
things that we've talked about thus far. Well, we didn't get as far as we wanted to today

540
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:39,040
in speaking really about the difference maybe between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the

541
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:45,120
name of Jesus Christ. And I invite our listeners to pay closer attention as they read their

542
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:51,920
scriptures to how many times in the scriptures it talks about faith in the name. What is the

543
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:58,240
difference? I just pose this as a question to ponder in preparation for maybe our discussion

544
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:07,840
on this. What is the difference between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the name of Jesus

545
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:18,720
Christ? And maybe next week for sure we need to help try to understand that together and discuss

546
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:23,840
that. We'll address that right up front next week. What that does is that guarantees one more

547
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:31,200
podcast, at least at some point. Do you have any final thoughts, Dave? No, I enjoy being with

548
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:41,760
you, Scott, very much. I always delight in our relationship and in what we learn from one another.

549
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:48,320
I'm grateful for our listeners and for what they share with us in their emails and the

550
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:54,880
communications we've received from many of them. And I'm grateful for this opportunity

551
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:02,160
to testify of these things, to share these things, and to learn, to learn for myself these things.

552
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,320
You know, Mary and G. Romney and others used to always say, I know when I'm feeling the Spirit,

553
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:15,760
or I know when I'm feeling the Holy Ghost because I learned something new. I enjoy the

554
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:21,920
discussions and interactions with you and our listeners, Scott, because I continue to learn

555
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:29,120
new things and I'm continuing to learn and grateful that I feel the Spirit when that happens.

556
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:37,040
Yeah, thanks, Dave. So, the three things that we're hoping that we can accomplish in terms

557
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:41,600
of takeaways today and maybe add application, figure out where the application is in our own

558
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:47,840
lives. As we assess our level of faith, as we assess our own as personal inventory,

559
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:53,520
this is a personal endeavor. This is something between ourselves as individuals and our Heavenly

560
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,760
Father. And again, if we pray to know what to pray for in this regard, in this vein, I believe that

561
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:05,760
our answers will come. But number one is it's important that we have a belief in Him, at least

562
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:12,880
a level of belief, even a little tiny level of belief that God lives in all these other things.

563
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:19,760
That is a good start. And then second, we need to come to know Him. We focus and talk about coming

564
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:24,800
to know Him, I believe, in literally every time we come together. It's that important.

565
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:32,880
And as is this next kind of apex or culminating point, which is to eventually and

566
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:41,440
degree by degree and line up online, it's maybe not a one-time event, but a process to see our will

567
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:49,120
enveloped and swallowed up by the will of our Heavenly Father. It's our prayer that you have

568
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:54,560
felt the Spirit today. It's our prayer that there have come to your thoughts and your minds things

569
01:02:54,560 --> 01:03:00,000
in your lives, things in each of our lives that could be better, that could be more

570
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:07,200
closely aligned with our Heavenly Father's will and our promise and our test, and we testify that

571
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:12,480
this is true, that as we do so, our confidence in His presence and in the presence of others will

572
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:19,520
increase, that as we fill His love for us, our hope will spring more eternal and will be grounded

573
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:25,120
and founded upon the important things, the only important things of this life and throughout

574
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:32,400
eternity. Thanks for being with us today. It's been our absolute pleasure to once again talk about

575
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:38,240
these most important things, and we look forward to continuing this conversation again next week.

576
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:46,480
Until then, God bless, and may you know that He loves you and that He is alive and well in your

577
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:55,760
lives. Let us let Him in, is our prayer. Thanks again. We'll see you next week.