Hi everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. In this podcast we discuss hope,
healing and redemption through the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ. I am Scott Durfee
and I want to introduce my partner in this project, our teacher, David Durfee.
Thank you Scott. Good morning everyone. Hope that you are doing well and excited to talk more about
faith and faith in Jesus Christ today. So our last podcast we did just that and this
will be an extension obviously of that one. In fact as you have noticed each of these
podcasts sort of build one on the other and so if you are just joining us welcome. We want to say
welcome to you and encourage you if you feel so inclined. In fact we would actually strongly
encourage you to go back to the very beginning of this podcast series because they really do kind of
one again builds on the other. So keep that in mind this is going to be episode 15 coming out
this week. We want to thank everybody for your emails. We have received a couple of really great
emails recently and we will be addressing some of the questions that have been brought up in future
podcasts and I want to just say thanks for that. As a reminder you can send questions and comments
and any other correspondence that you would like to convey to us. We welcome it. In fact we encourage
it and that can be done at our email address which is he redeems us at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com.
So last week Dave we talked about as you mentioned faith. Some of the things that we brought up was
we remember Elder Patrick Kieran's talk and about how he talked about how each of us and some of us
are survivors and we have our own survival story. We talked about focus. Dave you talked about how
do we change our focus to Christ and to look unto him and every thought. We talked about how from
that Doctrine and Covenants scripture section six. Section six. You know it's a very important
six. You know we should look unto Christ and every thought. We talked about faith and that's the
beginning of the Doctrine of Christ. You asked our listeners and I hope that this has happened.
You asked them that what is your level of faith and that should be something that we should consider
and contemplate and where is our focus and then you offered a challenge Dave and it was fairly
early on in the podcast last week. You issued a challenge to each of us to think about what can
I do daily to change my focus. What can I do daily to change my faith and you know as we move today
into as we move today into an extension of that stuff. I just want to turn the time to you David
to kind of get us rocking and rolling with this. To kind of I turn the time to you David to kind of
get us moving in the right direction and to invite the Spirit as we begin a further discussion along
these lines. Well it's certainly a spiritual discussion for sure and the Spirit the Holy Spirit
is certainly the key to increasing our faith. We keep saying Scott that the Holy Ghost is the
messenger and the administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life and it's through the power
and gift of the Holy Ghost that we receive faith in our life. Faith ultimately is a gift, a gift of
the Spirit that's described in Doctrine and Covenants section 46, Moroni 10, in Corinthians.
Faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit, one of the first gifts of the Spirit that's mentioned in
all of those scriptures. I think it's really important that we maybe begin just briefly.
You said that all these podcasts kind of build on each other and I've been thinking
the last few days about that and about how we can't forget in seeking to increase our faith
and to build our faith. It's really important that we remember the things that we have talked about
in the past such as our pre-mortal existence and who we are really as sons and daughters of God.
That's an important foundation in order to increase our faith. It's important that we
understand that the plan of redemption includes the fall of all mankind and that we are grateful
for the fall and we're grateful for mortality and we're grateful for the law of opposition and
all that goes with that and that we accept that and that's important as a foundation to
build on to increase our faith. It's critical that we understand our need, that we feel
that our dependence upon Jesus Christ and his atonement, that we understand the events
of the atonement of Christ and the effects of the atonement of Jesus Christ, our Savior.
Those are all fundamental foundational stones, rocks upon which we need to build and increase
our faith. Faith doesn't stand alone. It's built upon those foundations of doctrine, those points
of doctrine and that's where we must kind of begin and end our discussion of faith.
Today we're going to, faith in and of itself is a deep subject for sure and we can make several
podcasts. There could be several episodes but we could do a whole podcast entitled Faith or Faith
in Christ or Faith in the Name of Christ and that could go for a long time just talking about what
faith is, the blessings of faith and how we can obtain it and why it's important. So last time
we kind of talked about faith, God, kind of in the general, right? We talked about that there are
levels of faith. You can never speak of faith as though it's something you either have or that you
don't have. We all have faith. Everyone has faith. Even atheists have faith. We all have faith.
Everyone has faith. Even atheists have faith. I don't know what they believe in but everyone has
beliefs and that's the lowest level of faith. Whatever you believe, that's faith. There's true
faith and there's false faith. There's probably good faith and there's bad faith but faith in a
religious sense, according to the lectures on faith, faith is the first principle of religion.
Now we know that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So faith in the general can mean a lot of different things. Faith in God is kind of in the general.
Faith in Jesus Christ is what leads us to salvation and exaltation.
And that's where we'll kind of focus today. Well, you know, I've had a lot of conversations
since we talked last, some with people who listen to our podcast and others who are just
struggling with faith of any kind. I had a conversation fairly recently. I actually went
golfing with a gentleman fairly recently who has really been just struggling and I talked to him
and he said it was okay that I share this. But you, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I went golfing.
You went golfing and you didn't invite me. I would like to know how many times you've been
recently without that invitation. Well, you're busier than I am. I'm retired and I haven't time.
So yeah, I was golfing and we were talking about this, this faith and he has had a similar path
that I have had and acknowledged a knowledge of and a testimony of the gospel throughout his life,
but mentioned and I have been there too and I think probably all of us have that just mentioned
that there's just some times when that faith is just not as evident in his life as he would like
it to be or as others maybe as it were would like it to be spouses, children, children,
like it to be spouses, children, ecclesiastical leaders, whatever the case may be, friends.
And so this struggle of faith and can become something that can sometimes trip us up.
And I believe, Dave, that there are times when we really have more faith than we give ourselves
credit for. I believe there are times when there is a deeper faith abiding within us than the enemy
or the adversary would like for us to acknowledge. And so throws up, we talked last week about how
the adversary will sometimes throw walls up at us to prevent our progression and moving towards
having a more perfect relationship and a deeper experience with the spirit of the Holy Ghost in
our lives that you sometimes can get thrown up. And I think that this can be a situation where
that can surely happen, where we doubt our faith, where something will come up and the whisperings
of the adversary might be, yeah, but that's not really. So I think that as we start to and develop
more around this and we open our hearts and listen through the spirit to the things that we're going
to be talking about and learning today, that we should all be edified as we begin to develop
more faith. And I think we'll probably talk about, you talked about it last week, that there's a
spiraling up with faith. I think we'll probably get into some of that again today, but that's been
great. And there can be a spiraling down too, Scott, depending on again the things that we
are focused on. I think President Nelson has acknowledged that and has invited us, encouraged
us not to discount the faith that we have and that whatever faith we have, we can build on it.
I've always been touched by the prayer about the ancient apostles when they said, increase our
faith. You know, I just think about that prayer often and I utter that expression in my prayers
as well. Increase my faith. I hope that all of our listeners and that you and me and our family
members, all are willing to really examine what they believe in. And I think that if they did,
they would see that they had maybe more faith than they thought they had. And then if they were
really in a circumstance where they needed to call up on faith, that maybe there's even a greater
reserve or reservoir of faith than they think they have.
Yeah, I like that. I like how you refer to it as a reserve of faith than we think we might have.
I believe that's true. Yeah. And that daily, I think by the things that we do, the things that
we focus on, we build that reserve or reservoir. I think of it as a reservoir, building up this
reservoir of faith. And here we are in such a great drought out here in the West, and our
reservoirs aren't as full as they should be because not rain. And I think of rain as being
the Word of God, the living water. We need to get more of that in our life. But in regards to how
today we should talk about how we can increase our faith. What is required of us? What can we do to
grow our faith, knowing that's a gift of the Spirit? But what can we do? What choices can we make?
I've always been touched by a treatise on faith that was written by the early
brethren of the Restoration. Many people point to Sidney Rigdon as being a major author. I'm sure
Orson Pratt, I'm sure Joseph Smith, partly Pete Pratt, and many of the other brethren,
Edward Partridge and others, helped to write what is called the Lectures on Faith
in the 1833 School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio. And I remember finding that on my mission
and reading it for the first time 40-something years ago, and how that changed my life,
and it continues to bless my life. The Lectures on Faith consist of seven lectures, Scott.
The first lecture kind of describes what faith is, how it's the first principle of religion,
that it's a principle of action, and that it's a principle of power. And after describing what
faith is, Lectures 2 through 5 discuss the character, attributes, and perfections of God,
and Lecture 6 talks about how we can know that the life that we are pursuing is pleasing to God,
and Lecture 7 describes the joys, the benefits, the results, and blessings of faith.
But in these Lectures on Faith, it describes the three things that are required for us
to be able to obtain the faith of the ancients, to be able to, with an eye of faith, see God and
see us in the presence of God, and be able to actually penetrate the veil or open the veil.
And how can we obtain the faith of the ancients, including those who were able to see God?
Well, it says that there are three things required. One, that we need to believe that there is a God.
It starts with belief, just a mere belief. You talked about the friend that you went golfing
with, and how our faith kind of varies, and sometimes it's just a little stronger than others,
and oftentimes I think that that's related to our desires, which is related to our gratitude.
There is, again, kind of these building blocks. Gratitude is the beginning of desire,
and if our desires are weak, that means we're lacking in gratitude. So, what's the level of my
gratitude? That will increase my desire, and my desires increase my faith. Those are connected,
desires and faith. Alma connects them in Alma chapter 32. If you only have a desire to believe,
he says. Well, that's the first requirement of faith, is if you only have a desire to believe
in God, believe in God. Yeah, but you mentioned that that desire comes from gratitude,
and that gratitude must come from something else, which leads into the second point that you're
about to make here. Yes, thank you, Scott. It has to do with knowledge. Knowledge and understanding
of God's attributes, perfections, and character. I think the order in elections of faith are
we must know His character, perfections, and attributes. That includes knowing what He was
willing to do for us, knowing how much He loves us. That does increase my gratitude, which increases
my desire, which increases my faith. Part of this spiraling upward helix. So, we need to know His
character, attributes, and perfection, and lectures two through five of the lectures on faith talk
about the characters and attributes of God. What would you suppose are some of the characters,
attributes of God, Scott? Well, the characters, perfections, and attributes of God are the very
things that, you know, as we go back to episode two, three, four, and we talk about how important
it is to know Him. You know, we get to know those as we study Him, as we spend time, as we study the
Scriptures, as we spend time with Him, wherever that may be. That temple, the sacrament table,
etc. And what we learn there is, number one, to me, the biggest character, attribute, and perfection
of God is His love for His children. Yeah. I mean, that's just obviously evident in all, once we tune
our spiritual eyes to see, that becomes pretty evident in a lot of things in our lives. Now,
there will be people that will say, yeah, but if you knew what was going on in my life, you may not
be able to say that. And to that I would answer, well, yeah, I can still say that because I've also
had those times in my life when I didn't have this going on. But the biggest character and perfection
and attribute of God is love, forgiveness, understanding, complete empathy, and so on. All
those great and wonderful things that we sometimes strive and fail to achieve in our own lives, Dave,
I think those are some of the things that we could be referring to here. Yeah, absolutely. And the
lectures on faith describe some of those. And it likes to focus on the mercy of God, the justice of
God, the love of God. It talks about how God is a God of truth, that God is the same yesterday, today,
and forever, that He is merciful and gracious, that He is slow to anger. All of those are described
in the lectures on faith, two through five, really. I especially love lecture three on that. But
God has spoken, Scott. If we want to know God and we want to know His character, perfections,
and attribute, or we want to know the character, perfections, and attributes of Jesus Christ,
which are the same as God's. If you've seen me, Jesus said, you've seen the Father. We have to
not only know what they say, what they've taught, which is to come to a deeper understanding,
appreciation, and gratitude for the Scriptures, but we need to come to know what they've done,
what they did for us. And that includes the creation, Scott. That's another pillar of the
plan of redemption that we haven't talked probably enough about. To appreciate and feel gratitude
for God's creations. I think my faith has really increased when I go into the mountains and when I
ponder the creations of God, and to be able to do the things that we're able to do in this world and
the beauties of it. That increases my gratitude and my desires to know Him. So, knowing what
they've done, knowing what they've said, knowing about Jesus's, our Savior's sacrifice, our Redeemer's
willingness to suffer for us, to go to the Garden of Gethsemane again, to stand at the foot of the
cross, to understand what they've done, that increases our knowledge of understanding the
character, perfections, and attributes. And that's a requirement, really, to increase our faith.
That's the second requirement. The third is really the key to develop, I think, the faith of power.
And again, there are levels of faith, and to be able to obtain that faith of power or come close,
it's not going to be possible, I don't think here in mortality, to obtain the faith of God. By the
way, God has faith. I used to ask my students, how many of you, God knows all things, you know,
I'd kind of set them up. And I'd say, God knows all things, right? He knows all things from beginning
to end. He has perfect knowledge. Therefore, does He have faith? And over half my students would say,
no, He doesn't need faith. Well, that's a lack of understanding His character, perfections,
and attributes. God absolutely has faith, and knowledge is actually one of the requirements
of faith. Not only to know His character, perfections, and attributes is required to have
faith, but we must know and have the knowledge that the life which we are pursuing is pleasing
to God, that we know that we are living according to the will of God, that we know that our will has
been swallowed up in His will. When we obtain that knowledge, then we can have the faith of power
that I think we read last week, described by Jacob in Jacob chapter 4 verse 6, where he said,
we would command that even the mountains, the trees, and the seas would obey us.
Well, you don't just command a mountain to move, to show off, or to impress somebody, or to…
To satisfy a sign seeker.
Yeah, or your pride. You would only move a mountain or a tree or command the seas
command the seas because it was the will of God. It's in 3rd in Helaman, I think it's Helaman chapter
10, Scott, where this level of faith, this faith of power is described in these verses. So, let's go
to Helaman 10 verses 4 and 5 and begin to read for just a minute. Do you have that?
I can get it.
Uh, so…
I got it.
This is describing Nephi the 3rd, the son of Helaman, and his faith. And let's read
Helaman chapter 10 verses 4 through 6, Scott. And again, everyone, this is a great description,
I think one of the best in the scriptures on what I would consider to be the level that I call the
faith of power. So, this is Helaman chapter 10 verses 4 through 6.
Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done. For I have beheld how thou hast
with unwearing… This is a hard word. Unwearingness declared the word which I have given unto thee,
unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life,
but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
Do you see… What keys do you see in that verse, Scott, in regards to
keys to obtain the faith of power, which he's going to describe here in a moment?
Yeah, so he says, thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life,
but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
There you go.
Yeah. Yeah. And then in 5 it goes on, and now, because thou hast done this,
with such unwearingness, behold, I will bless thee forever, and I will make thee mighty in word,
and in deed, in faith, and in works.
Notice, it's a gift of the Spirit.
I will make thee mighty in faith.
Okay. Yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word,
for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
So, in essence, he's saying, anything you ask for, Nephi, I'll give it to thee.
Anything that thou ask for, anything that thou commands, it will happen.
I will cause it to happen. And all of this because why?
Because you wouldn't ask for anything that was contrary to my will.
Your will, Nephi, has been swallowed up in my will.
In my own.
And then look at this description of the faith of power in verse 6.
Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God.
Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels,
that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine,
and with pestilence, and with destruction according to the wickedness of this people.
And look at verse 7.
Behold, I give unto you power that what...
Okay, whatever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven, and thus shall ye have power.
So, this faith of power can only be received as a gift from God
through the atonement of Jesus Christ, allowing us strength to have our will swallowed up
in the will of God.
I just ask all of us, you know, if we were to really ponder the question,
is my... is the course of my life that I am pursuing, is it pleasing to God?
That's a question we should really contemplate, and we should really ask ourselves,
as the brethren have asked us, what do we need to start doing,
and what do we need to stop doing,
and what do we need to stop doing in order for our will to be swallowed up in the will of God,
in order to know that the course of the life that we are pursuing is pleasing to God.
When we do that, we can begin to obtain the faith of power,
and the faith of power results in miracles, Scott.
You've had... you've seen miracles in your life.
Yeah, absolutely, and I was just going to say, you know, one of the things,
you know, in my experience, and I've mentioned this, you know, throughout this podcast,
this is not something I wear as a badge of honor, but it is part of my journey,
part of my life, and part of my learning experience,
is that I have 23 years of continuous sobriety from drugs and alcohol,
because of... I participate in a recovery program, and I still do, and as part of that recovery
program, I get an opportunity to be around and associate with, not just for my own sake,
but for the help and sake of others, which is step 12.
It's not a selfishness thing. It is actually one of the steps that we do help others
and share this experience and give hope to those that are downtrodden.
That was extended to me really early on. In fact, it was a really important person.
It was my stake president who sent me, I think I may have mentioned this, who sent me
to meetings to get help to recover, recovery meetings, and I still participate, as I mentioned.
One of the things, though, that I often... and I've mentioned this,
myself, and I don't think alcoholics and addicts and those who are suffering from other addictions
and mental issues and things of this nature, I don't think that we have a corner on the
market with this stuff. I think people who don't necessarily struggle with these things
also can sometimes wonder this same thing. I think that we look at sometimes this faith,
and we think, I know I have, when we think this, we think that we have to be able to
recover. I think that sometimes we look at it and think, yeah, this is great, and I believe
that there's a God, and I believe that he has love for his people, and I believe that he can heal.
And I think I mentioned this last time, but as part of some of the things that we say there
is that we believe that God could and would if he were sought. And I have always believed
that God could and would if he were sought. We received an email just the other day from
a guy who said the same thing. All my life I've had a testimony. All my life I've had a belief,
to a degree, sometimes stronger, sometimes not as strong. But oftentimes as humans,
in our humanness, and again, we don't have to be the vilest of sinners to have these feelings,
but we sometimes believe that these things are important and achievable, but I don't know if I
would achieve those things, maybe achievable by others. I always thought, and I mentioned this,
I always knew God could and would if he were sought. He could for you if you sought him.
He could for you if you believed him. But he wouldn't do that for me because I had made too
many mistakes. I had gone too far. I had a certain amount of light that I had gone contrary to my
integrity for. And so because of that, I felt like that there was a punishment attached or a
holding attached that would sometimes keep that from being in my life. So let me ask you a question,
Scott, about that. So what was lacking in your understanding or knowledge
to keep you from the level of faith necessary to be able to be transformed or to make those changes
in your life? Yeah, there's two things, but really only one that was lacking. And this is something
that I have thought about throughout my life or throughout this process in my life. The main thing
that was lacking was a clear and concise understanding of who he is. I didn't really
know him the way that I needed to know him. Who did you think he was? I thought that he was somebody
for you that would be loving and accepting, but for somebody for me, because I had made so many
mistakes that I needed to pay. And we're going to get into that when we talk about repentance,
what repentance is and what it's not. But I might just preface that discussion by saying that I
believed that repentance was punishment. I believed that I needed to continually be punished,
continually be punished and repunished for the things that I had done. I felt like there were
never enough stripes. I felt like that Christ's blood was more, that he had blood more for me
than he had for others. And that for some reason, I needed to be sorry for that. I needed to pay for
that and I needed to be punished for that. That's not how I see it today. So how's your knowledge
and understanding changed, number one? And number two, what changed it? Yeah, so let me answer number
two first. So what changed it was a deep desire to have it changed. And these follow the steps that
have been laid out, both in the lectures on faith and what we've been talking about here.
But that was the first one was to have a desire. The second one was to have a deeper gratitude.
And you know, this is one thing when I have guys that I sponsor call me and I don't have an answer
because there are questions in life that we just don't know the answers for each other on. But
there is always one answer and that is, have I considered what I'm grateful for today?
And as I dive into that gratitude, I have to, in order for me to have that gratitude, David,
what I have to do is I have to, gratitude for what? Well, if I'm going to have gratitude for
my step two, which is came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity.
And then step three, where I make a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God,
as I have come to understand him, that requires me to come to know him. And we talked about this,
and I don't remember for sure what episode it was, but I know grandpa Durfee real well,
because I spent time with him. I spent time camping with him, fishing with him,
working at the dry cleaners, begrudgingly sure, but working there, he fired me a few times.
But I got to know this guy, especially when I was going through really difficult times in my life,
and I could go knock on his door in the middle of the night or call, and he would be willing to get
up and sit and talk with me and counsel and love. And I knew him because I spent time with him.
In order for me to know what I need to know about my faith in my heavenly father and in the Lord
Jesus Christ's power through his atonement, I need to come to know him and spend and invest the time
to do it through study, through prayer, and every other thing.
Yeah, okay. You know, it strikes me that another kind of prerequisite that Alma discusses in Alma
chapter 32 with the apostate Zoramites, and if you remember, he's on this hill of Oneida, and he's
on this hill of Oneida, and these outcasts, apostate Zoramites, come to him because they've
been cast out of their, they've lost and been cast out by the more self-righteous Zoramites.
And so they come to him and he tells them, you know, it's really good that you've been
compelled to be humble. I think humility, Scott, is one of the prerequisites also to faith that
maybe we should just pause on for just a moment here. And he describes in Alma chapter 32,
it's good that you are compelled to be humble, but it would have been better if you would have been
humble without being compelled to be humble because of the word. I really think that in
your process, and maybe you can describe it to us, is what happened in your life?
Were you compelled to be humble? Had you hit rock, the proverbial rock bottom,
and you were compelled to be humble? Or did you become humble through the word?
And then maybe you can talk about this a little bit with your experience. Being compelled to be
humble is a good thing for those who maybe have to hit rock bottom, but it doesn't last. Unless one
who may be compelled to be humble eventually builds their humility upon the word and that they
understand how Christ hit rock bottom until they understand the rock bottom that Christ went through
in Gethsemane and on the cross, until the source of their humility is Jesus Christ and his rock
bottom, it doesn't transform them. Can you talk about that? Yeah, that's actually 100% accurate.
So let's talk about this compelled first. So in my situation, and I can generally speak for all
alcoholics, addicts, anybody else, and when I use the word addict, I can be talking about behavioral
addictions as well as chemical addictions. But this compelling to be humbled, I think all of us are,
to a degree, because if it wasn't for a rock bottom, that rock bottom is the compelling
component of it. Now, there's different ways to be compelled, right? Right, many ways.
There's many ways to be compelled. One way to be compelled, and I like to think that this is the
way I was compelled, is that I just couldn't function anymore. I was doing okay physically.
On the outward, it looked okay. Well, I think it did. It probably didn't. You're faking it.
Yeah, I was really faking it. Living a good double life. I had a lot of success
in my work. I was doing okay on the outside. Inside, I was an absolute train wreck. I was hollow.
I was empty. I had pushed everything away. I mean, I had gone on a mission. I had served the Lord.
I don't ever remember a time in my life when I didn't have a testimony of the Lord, Savior,
Jesus Christ. I just don't ever remember a time when I didn't believe it. Well, keep your thought.
You were born with that. I know. You know, I think our listeners need to understand something
about faith, and that is that we developed exceedingly great faith, according to Alma,
in Alma chapter 13, in the pre-mortal existence, in the first place. We were born with faith.
Faith is something that is part of our being. Unless we push it, disguise it, bury it,
Satan deceives us, all of us have faith. Every human being on this earth, Scott, I believe,
not only have the light of Christ, but to some degree or another, they have faith. They were
born with faith. Their spirit was filled with faith when we came to this earth. So, when you say,
I always had faith, I think that's true for every human being on this earth.
Yeah, I do too. And I have my patriarchal blessing that I refer to very frequently now,
and it talks about that very thing. It talks about how I have brought with me, because of my
valor there, many gifts, and I believe that was one of those. I've never worked hard to obtain
a testimony of the truthfulness of the restoration of the gospel, and especially of Jesus Christ
himself. I've never had to work hard for that. And when I say work hard for that, I mean, I've had to
work hard for it. Sure. And when you hear the rest of what I'm going to say, you're going to say,
oh yeah, Scott, you definitely worked hard for that. But in the conventional sense, I didn't have to
go through what I hear a lot of folks go through, right? I knew the Book of Mormon was true before
I even read it. I just knew it was. I knew that God loved me before I can even remember knowing
about love. But I came to question it later because of the stuff that I had done. And so,
you know, we talk about rock bottom, and rock bottom is not a place. It's a choice. You know,
we come to many opportunities for rock bottom in our life. I speak and have the opportunity to speak
very frequently in recovery situations, some with the church through the addiction recovery program
for the church. Deb and I, my wife and I served for 10 years as facilitators, both in that. Most of
that time separate, but for the last five years for each of us, we got to serve together at a seminary
building here in Orem, Utah, and take the message of hope, healing, and comfort through the Atonement
of Jesus Christ there as part of the recovery program. But what I have come to believe,
through my experience, through 20-something years of experience of helping and experiencing it in
my own life, is that when we are at a rock bottom, we get to make that choice by simply putting down
the shovel and quit digging that hole deeper, and then turning our will and life over to the care
of God as we understand Him, like we're talking about here. So, you know, all three of these,
compelled, sure, or through the Word, that also comes. And I think that we can have both. I think
that we can be compelled, and also through the Word of Christ, and also through the Word,
have this faith brought into our lives that will bring us closer to God and help that ascension
of our spiritual being as we go through life, Dave. Well, as I'm listening to you, again,
I'm picturing Alma's description in Alma 32 of being compelled to be humble, and you described it
as taking the shovel out of our hand or digging a hole. And I'm sitting here thinking, wow,
Alma compared the Word, receiving the Word, to planting a seed. Right. You know, I think that
so many of us, unfortunately in this life, maybe most of us or all of us to some degree or another,
are digging holes for ourselves when we should be planting seeds or the Word in our hearts. Yeah.
I agree. And it's just that simple shift. It's just that simple shift. You know, if I'm compelled,
and again, I believe that in my situation, I don't believe everybody's compelled, but I believe that
in my situation in that part of our culture and that part of our lives, I believe there's rarely,
I've never seen an exception, and there may be those that came without somehow being compelled,
because I believe that even, I told somebody just the other day, literally this week, talking to
somebody, he's saying, and this is not the one that I talked to you earlier about, Dave, but somebody
else, we were having this discussion, and he was just saying, I just don't think I can quit drinking.
I'm going to go back and I'm going to start drinking. And will it still be here if I need it
later? And we always say, you know, if you go back out, the bottle will drive you back. And that's
the compelling part of it, right? Because it never gets better. It always gets worse. It's a disease,
a progression, and it gets bad, it gets worse, it gets worse, and it continues down the road.
But it's definitely not the bottle. It's definitely not the bottle.
It's the shovel. It's the shovel. It's your own digging.
And that's the point. The bottle is the shovel in this situation, and the drug is the shovel,
and the cutting habit is the shovel, and the bulimia, and the anorexia, and the pornography
addiction, and all those other things that we use. Anger. Even anger can be.
Anger, even manipulation, even controlling. I mean, there's so many things, whatever it is,
in our lives that take us away from being completely aligned with our Heavenly Father.
That is the shovel. Even harboring bitterness.
Resentment. Resentment,
not forgiving, or not repenting, or all of those things.
Yeah. You know, and then on the flip side of the coin, that shovel can be pride. That shovel can
be success. Because those can be rock bottoms too. Those are what we call high-level rock bottoms.
But those things can too divert us and distract us from the Spirit.
Well, we need to just take the shovel and start planting seeds.
Yeah. Instead of digging holes.
Instead of digging holes. Yeah.
Empty holes that we find ourselves.
Right. Instead of digging holes to hide in, we plant seeds to grow from.
Yeah. There you go. Well, I love that. And everyone should maybe read or reread again,
over and over again, Alma chapter 32, which is an amazing treatise on faith, what it is. And then
really, Alma 33, which is the Zoramite say, well, how can I plant the word in my heart?
Yeah. They ask that question.
Yeah. And I love Alma chapter 33, where he talks about, well, you need to first understand
that God offers mercy. And he quotes, I think, is at Zenos, that God is angry with us because we do
not understand his mercy, which Scott in lectures on faith is one of the six attributes they
describe in that we must understand to have faith. We must begin that God has mercy, that God has
love, that he loves us, and that he's merciful. And then ultimately in chapter 33, I think it's
about verse 22, where he says, and this is the word that you must plant in your heart, which is
Jesus Christ and him crucified. Right. I just really love that. And that's where we eventually,
we all need to get in order to have the faith of power, not just to perform, not just to conform,
but to be transformed. We need the power of faith in Christ.
I want to, Dave, let me read that. I want to read that verse.
Oh, please. And Alma 33.
33, and it's verse 23.
23. Yeah.
Read 22 and 23.
Okay. All right.
I love both those verses.
So this, let me start with-
And he compares it, right, to the, he compares it to the serpent. All you got to do is look up,
look up and believe and you'll be saved.
So the serpent, meaning the serpent on the staff.
The brass serpent.
Yeah, the brass serpent for the children of Israel. That's right. While they wandered for
40 years when it should have been an 11 day journey. So if so, this is verse 22,
if so, who shall come unto you? But if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe
in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people and that he shall suffer and be
redeemed from the dead. And that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins and that he shall
rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand
before him to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works. And now behold,
brethren, my brethren, I desire that you shall plant this word-
This word.
What's that word?
Yeah. What is this word? So this word is-
Christ, his redemption, his sacrifice, his infinite, intimate atonement for each of us. This word.
Right. Going back again to John 1.
Plant this word in your hearts.
Let me do that again. And now, my brethren, I desire that you shall plant this word in your hearts.
And as it beginneth to swell, even so, nourish it by your faith. That's so important. That
component, that part of it is-
That's the healing.
That's right. Yeah.
It continues to grow and grow. By our faith, it grows. Our faith grows. By our faith, it grows.
Yeah. And faith is an action word here too, but faith is not. So it's saying nourish it by your
faith. In other words, because of my faith, I will nourish it.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Faith requires exertion.
That's right.
It requires work.
And so let's talk about what some of that work could be right here. So if I'm going to nourish
my faith, I don't want to leave anybody hanging on, okay, so how do I nourish my faith? Well,
how would you nourish your faith? For me, what that looks like is-
Go ahead.
Let's pause for a minute.
Yeah.
So this morning, in preparation for this, I've been thinking so much about
President Nelson's talk, given on Easter Sunday of 2021 on the faith to move mountains.
And he gives us a five-step approach to being able to have the faith of power. In fact, he says,
faith in Jesus Christ is the foundation of all belief and the conduit of divine power in our life.
And then it is our faith that unlocks the power of God in our lives. And then when Lord understands
our mortal weakness, we all falter at times, but he also knows of our great potential. The Lord does
not require perfect faith for us to have access to his perfect power. Anyway, five things that he
says, I'm quoting now, may I offer five suggestions to help you develop that faith and trust? First,
study, become an engaged learner, immerse yourself in the scriptures to better understand Christ's
mission and ministry. And then he says some other things about that. Second, choose to believe in
Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God, the Father and his beloved Son, or the validity of the
restoration or veracity of Joseph Smith's divine calling as a prophet, choose, choose to believe
and stay faithful and take your questions to the Lord. Anyway, he talks about that. So choose to
believe. Okay, let me, let me just restart in 23, just so we can keep the train of thought here.
And now my brother and I desire that I desire that you shall plant this word, this word in your
hearts. And as it beginneth to swell, even so nourish it by your faith. Well, third,
sorry, Scott. Oh, you're good. Third, President Nelson says act in faith. Yeah. So that's,
yep, there you go. And behold, it will become a tree springing up in you, springing up in you,
yeah, right, unto everlasting life. And so how would that, I'm not done with the verse, I'm
going to come back, but I just want to comment on that. How awesome would that be to have that
tree springing up in me unto everlasting life? And not just, so what that does is that gives me
everlasting life, but I also read that to say that I will have that throughout my life everlastingly.
Well, amen. And by the way, this is definitely a fruit tree. It's not a pine tree. Right. It's
not a cottonwood. Yeah. And it's not a barren fig tree. This is a fruit tree. Right. And the fruit
is delicious. And it replaces our need for all of the other things that our life are negatively
filled with. Yeah. So I love that. And then, may God grant unto you that your burdens
may be light. Let me rephrase, let me reemphasize that. And then, only then, and then may God grant
unto you that your burdens may be light through the joy of his son and even all this can ye do
if you will. Yeah. It's a choice. Amen. Elder Anderson said faith is a choice. President Nelson
has said that as well. And fourth, in this list of five things, President Nelson tells us we should
do to increase our faith in Jesus Christ and be able to access the power of Jesus Christ through
his atonement. Fourth, partake of the sacred ordinances worthily. Ordinances unlock the power
of God in your life. And fifth, ask your heavenly father in the name of Jesus Christ for help.
That prayer of please, please increase my faith. Right. Well, I think that's a pretty good list
of five things that we can all focus on and go back and review President Nelson's talk on the
Faith to Move Mountains April 2021 General Conference. And to really ponder it and to
and to really ponder it and to try to focus, change again our focus, and to be more intent.
Faith just doesn't come. No. It's not something that we just have or that we don't have, Scott.
Faith requires work. Yeah, we can't even just will it. We can't just will ourselves to have faith.
I mean, there's a step. I mean, it's important that we do have the willingness and that we do want to
and that and all that. But it definitely requires work. You know, I've heard I've lived long enough
to hear this from several different individuals who have said to me or to others, and I'm not
any great example of this, but I wished I had your faith. Yeah. I wish I had their faith.
I wish I had that kind of faith. I always think about that and I always think, oh man, that's so
weak. Yeah, I agree. Do we have any idea of what it took Jesus Christ to have the faith that he had
in his father? Do we have any idea of the work, the intensity of effort, the price paid, the intentional
choices and the motivation it took, his desires and his humility and his love and all that was
required for Jesus Christ to be able to pray in Gethsemane, nevertheless not as I will, but as
thou wilt. Thy will be done, he prayed. Do we have any idea? Think of that as the ultimate example
of the level of faith that we must all come to in our lives. And I think again of Elder Bednar's
example of the young man who he calls John in his great talk. I think it was a worldwide young adult
devotional when he describes this young man just home from his mission, this good
man living a righteous life, married for only a few weeks, and he's diagnosed with cancer and
it's pretty bleak. I think there's like a 70% chance of this being terminal. And he's going to
give the young man a blessing and then he asks him the question, before I give you this blessing,
I have to ask you, do you have the faith not to be healed? In other words, do you have the faith
to accept or do the will of God according to his will and not your own? Like Nephi in,
third Nephi in Helaman, Nephi the third in Helaman. Do we have that faith where anything that we ask
will be according to the will of God? And how do we obtain that, Scott? I think it's described in
Doctrine and Covenants, section 46 on the gifts of the Spirit, where we're told that we should pray
according to the Spirit and that the Spirit will give us utterance and the Spirit will teach us
what we should pray for. I don't know, you've probably had this experience as well. I know
many of our listeners probably have too. Where in your prayers you're told what to pray for.
When we can reach that level of the power of prayer in our life, where God through his Spirit
teaches us what we should pray for, we'll know that we are not asking according to our will,
but we are asking according to his will. Which takes us to the third point of what we talked
about, what the lectures on faith talk about, right? Which is the final point, which is to have
our will swallowed up by him. And that is an example of when we can see that happening actually
in our lives. And again, that to have our will and his will aligned requires all of the other
things that we've talked about thus far. Well, we didn't get as far as we wanted to today
in speaking really about the difference maybe between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the
name of Jesus Christ. And I invite our listeners to pay closer attention as they read their
scriptures to how many times in the scriptures it talks about faith in the name. What is the
difference? I just pose this as a question to ponder in preparation for maybe our discussion
on this. What is the difference between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the name of Jesus
Christ? And maybe next week for sure we need to help try to understand that together and discuss
that. We'll address that right up front next week. What that does is that guarantees one more
podcast, at least at some point. Do you have any final thoughts, Dave? No, I enjoy being with
you, Scott, very much. I always delight in our relationship and in what we learn from one another.
I'm grateful for our listeners and for what they share with us in their emails and the
communications we've received from many of them. And I'm grateful for this opportunity
to testify of these things, to share these things, and to learn, to learn for myself these things.
You know, Mary and G. Romney and others used to always say, I know when I'm feeling the Spirit,
or I know when I'm feeling the Holy Ghost because I learned something new. I enjoy the
discussions and interactions with you and our listeners, Scott, because I continue to learn
new things and I'm continuing to learn and grateful that I feel the Spirit when that happens.
Yeah, thanks, Dave. So, the three things that we're hoping that we can accomplish in terms
of takeaways today and maybe add application, figure out where the application is in our own
lives. As we assess our level of faith, as we assess our own as personal inventory,
this is a personal endeavor. This is something between ourselves as individuals and our Heavenly
Father. And again, if we pray to know what to pray for in this regard, in this vein, I believe that
our answers will come. But number one is it's important that we have a belief in Him, at least
a level of belief, even a little tiny level of belief that God lives in all these other things.
That is a good start. And then second, we need to come to know Him. We focus and talk about coming
to know Him, I believe, in literally every time we come together. It's that important.
And as is this next kind of apex or culminating point, which is to eventually and
degree by degree and line up online, it's maybe not a one-time event, but a process to see our will
enveloped and swallowed up by the will of our Heavenly Father. It's our prayer that you have
felt the Spirit today. It's our prayer that there have come to your thoughts and your minds things
in your lives, things in each of our lives that could be better, that could be more
closely aligned with our Heavenly Father's will and our promise and our test, and we testify that
this is true, that as we do so, our confidence in His presence and in the presence of others will
increase, that as we fill His love for us, our hope will spring more eternal and will be grounded
and founded upon the important things, the only important things of this life and throughout
eternity. Thanks for being with us today. It's been our absolute pleasure to once again talk about
these most important things, and we look forward to continuing this conversation again next week.
Until then, God bless, and may you know that He loves you and that He is alive and well in your
lives. Let us let Him in, is our prayer. Thanks again. We'll see you next week.