1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,340 Hey there everybody, welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood. 2 00:00:19,340 --> 00:00:23,520 In this podcast we discuss hope healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus 3 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:24,520 Christ. 4 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:25,520 My name's Scott Durfee. 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,820 I want to be the first to welcome you out today and as always it's my honor to welcome 6 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:30,820 you. 7 00:00:30,820 --> 00:00:34,560 My partner in this project, our amazing teacher and my friend, brother David Durfee. 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:35,560 Say hi Dave. 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,720 So good to be here. 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,520 Last week we spoke about the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:51,040 Finished our discussion about that and I'm looking forward today to begin talking about 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,960 the, all the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,040 Super excited to get this going today. 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,200 We've spent a great deal of time covering the most important stuff that we could ever 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,240 potentially address in our lives and it's been a lot of fun doing that over the last 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,680 eleven or so episodes. 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,500 As this one rolls out now we'll be getting into more of the effects of the Atonement 18 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:20,280 of Jesus Christ and I think that everybody will at least fill an invitation from the 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:27,320 Spirit to apply the things that we're learning and make our lives better for doing that. 20 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,640 Before we get into that topic today though I want to take care of just a couple of real 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,440 quick items of business. 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,080 First off we want to thank you for your emails. 23 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,520 We've received some feedback over the last few weeks and are grateful for that. 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,680 We've also received several questions that we've been able to address privately. 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,840 If you have those we wouldn't mind you just sending us an email if they're appropriate 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,880 we can address them and maybe even talk about them in some, to some extent here on the podcast. 27 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,160 And our email is heredeemsusatgmail.com. 28 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,120 That's heredeemsusatgmail.com. 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,760 So once again just encourage your questions, comments, etc. 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,120 When you go to the various podcast outlets if you wouldn't mind liking, giving us a 31 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:16,640 like there and maybe even review we'd really appreciate that as well. 32 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:24,080 So as Dave just mentioned over the last three episodes we really got into the events of 33 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,640 the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 34 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:28,360 We started before that too. 35 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,880 I mean there's four real pillars to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and before that we talked 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:38,480 in great deal about the number one, His Sinless Life and why it needed to be that way. 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:45,400 And then we moved into the Garden of Gethsemane where we talked about the pain and the suffering 38 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,440 and the bleeding from every pore and even the betrayal that had happened just prior 39 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,360 to that and everything that went on. 40 00:02:53,360 --> 00:03:00,800 And then we moved from there to the Cross on Golgotha and really emphasized the importance 41 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:07,600 of our understanding and our coming to Him there at the cross where He paid, continued 42 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,360 and finished paying for our sins and all of the iniquities and pains and sorrows of the 43 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,560 world. 44 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:20,400 From there last week we spent a great deal of time talking about hope in the resurrection, 45 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:27,880 hope in the many things that we'll be moving into now as we start talking about the effects 46 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,200 of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 47 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,080 And one of the scriptures that we read, I just want to address it and visit it one more 48 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,520 time, this was brought to our attention by President Nelson, our prophet. 49 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,640 In a talk he talked about how important it was and why the Atonement of Jesus Christ 50 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,560 was and why Jesus did what He did. 51 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:51,000 And this is from Hebrews 12 to Dave and from here I think that we'll be able to springboard 52 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,680 into our discussion today. 53 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:59,280 But I just wanted to just as a reminder to ourselves and to our listeners address and 54 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:00,840 visit this scripture one more time. 55 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:06,960 This is in Hebrews 12 to where it says the author of Hebrews which was probably Paul 56 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:13,640 says, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set 57 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,560 before him endured the cross. 58 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,920 So I think that's important for us to remember that as painful and as horrific and hellacious 59 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,280 as everything it was that Jesus went through, there was a great deal of joy, unfathomable 60 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:33,240 joy, joy that we can't comprehend that was set before him and that helped him and encouraged 61 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,400 him and gave him strength to do the things that he did. 62 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:42,920 So Dave, now that we have talked about all of the events, in some detail there's much 63 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:49,120 more and we could write volumes and speak days and weeks just on that topic. 64 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:54,440 But in some depth we've gotten into the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 65 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Now we really move into and I've said this before in other podcasts, this is where the 66 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:00,560 rubber hits the road. 67 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,800 Well, this is where the rubber hits the road again just in a different way. 68 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:09,280 This is where we start having the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ alive and well 69 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:14,560 in our lives to the degree that our spiritual wellness is intact. 70 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,000 In other words, to the degree that we are inviting the Holy Spirit into our lives. 71 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,960 So Dave, with that, where do we go? 72 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:29,720 Well, it's important that we review briefly that because of the fall of Adam and Eve and 73 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:37,680 the universal fall of all mankind, that there were two major negatives, spiritual death 74 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,480 and physical death. 75 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:48,560 The Atonement of Jesus Christ unconditionally and conditionally overcome both of those. 76 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:54,080 So whenever we speak of the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, there are always 77 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,000 two aspects to it. 78 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:05,600 The unconditional aspects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the conditional aspects 79 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,800 of His Atonement. 80 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:15,720 So when we speak of spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam and Eve and the being 81 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:22,600 cast out of God's presence, Adam and Eve, and that all of us were cut off from the presence 82 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:30,880 of God and that we have all suffered this form of spiritual death being cut off from 83 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:37,880 our heavenly home into a hellish, mortal, celestial world. 84 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:44,800 The Atonement of Jesus Christ unconditionally overcomes that in, I believe, three or four 85 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,000 major ways. 86 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,000 We talked about one of them a few episodes ago, which is that we will all return to our 87 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,840 heavenly home. 88 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:04,520 All of God's children will have a face-to-face interview reckoning judgment with Him. 89 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,400 We will all unconditionally return to His presence. 90 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,560 That's only possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 91 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:21,040 So that's one unconditional aspect of how the Savior's Atonement unconditionally overcomes 92 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,040 spiritual death. 93 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:31,480 And here's another way it unconditionally overcomes spiritual death is that all children who die 94 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:44,400 before the age of accountability all are unconditionally redeemed and will return to the highest kingdom 95 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,600 of glory to the celestial worlds. 96 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,280 That's unconditional, Scott. 97 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:58,560 And I think this is one of the greatest points of doctrine in the entire restoration of the 98 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,280 fullness of the gospel in these latter days. 99 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:10,720 There are so many people who have lost children, myself included, who without the knowledge 100 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:18,480 of the Atonement of Christ, don't know where those children are. 101 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:19,480 They just don't. 102 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:26,360 I've read recently about some of the religious discussions and debates about what happens 103 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,360 to children. 104 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,920 I think we've all had experiences with that. 105 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:38,480 I remember a missionary companion of mine when I taught at the Missionary Training Center 106 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,600 after I returned home from my mission. 107 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:42,800 And he would share this. 108 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:49,200 It seemed like every Tuesday he would share this with the missionaries that when he was 109 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:55,040 on his mission in Canada, he was tracking and he knocked on this one door. 110 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,200 It was near evening and he heard a voice in his mind. 111 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:08,080 And the voice said, read Moroni 8, 10 through 12. 112 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,440 And he was, he'd only been out a few months and he started on zip his scripture cover 113 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,680 to find Moroni 8, 10 through 12 because he didn't even know what it said. 114 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:25,120 And he finds it just as a young woman opens the door and he reads to her Moroni 8, 10 115 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:33,640 through 12 about the Mormon condemning infant baptism and saying that all children are alive 116 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,920 in Christ and need no repentance. 117 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,360 Well he read those three verses and without even looking up. 118 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:53,360 And when he looked up, she's got tears flowing down her cheeks and she says, who told you? 119 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,080 And he said, told us what? 120 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,880 How did you know? 121 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,160 She said, know what? 122 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,800 How did you know my baby just died two weeks ago? 123 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,280 Who sent you here? 124 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:15,680 And he said, the Lord Jesus Christ and she said, I've been praying for two weeks that 125 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,760 God would send somebody to me to tell me where my baby is. 126 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,280 And she had, she told the experience that she was a member of a certain church and she 127 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:33,760 went to that church and asked the priest, where's my baby? 128 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,080 And he told her that this has been a long time ago, keep this in mind because they've 129 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,400 kind of changed, softened their doctrine on this. 130 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:48,120 But he told her that her baby was in purgatory and that the baby, because the baby hadn't 131 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,240 been received infant baptism. 132 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,760 Anyway, she said, I knew that couldn't be true. 133 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,160 So I've been praying for two weeks to know where my baby is. 134 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Well they went back when her husband was home on another evening and taught and baptized 135 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000 them. 136 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,640 President Hinckley shared a very similar story that something just like that that happened 137 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,080 in the state of New York. 138 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,560 And I know that probably happens maybe monthly somewhere in the world with our full-time 139 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:16,720 missionaries. 140 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:24,280 How many of them are able to give the sweet knowledge and comfort to individuals who have 141 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,600 lost children? 142 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:31,960 We believe that all little children who die before the age of accountability, even though 143 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,080 Scott, it's important that we know that all children are fallen. 144 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,640 All children have felt the effects of spiritual death even though they're innocent and they 145 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,000 can't sin before the age of accountability. 146 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,960 They're still fallen. 147 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,640 King Benjamin teaches us that in Mosiah 3.16. 148 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:57,720 But because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, they are unconditionally saved. 149 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,360 That's great news. 150 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,920 That is great news and if that was the only news that we got, that alone would be enough. 151 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,040 But it's so, so much more than that. 152 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,400 I don't know how a mom who's lost a child in that moment could feel like anything could 153 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,080 be more than that though. 154 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:20,800 And I think that's the beauty behind all of the things that we're talking about is whatever 155 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:26,280 we are going through or whatever somebody else is going through, the atonement of Jesus 156 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:32,760 Christ has already leveled up to meet the demands of whatever that is. 157 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,280 And if that's the loss of the child, we talk about the other things unconditionally and 158 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,160 there's so much more to this. 159 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:45,360 We know of children and I know of people personally and so do you who have suffered at the hands 160 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:51,640 of adults just really awful things that wasn't their choice. 161 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:57,160 And we're going to get more into the redemptive and enabling and the compensatory components 162 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,560 of the atonement and those powers. 163 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,320 But that's part of the unconditional as well. 164 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:09,920 Well before we leave the covering children, I check this again this morning because it's 165 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,960 so hard for us to understand and believe this. 166 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:26,440 But in the United States in the 1800s, the infant mortality rate was over 46% children 167 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,880 reaching the age of five years old. 168 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,880 So think about this, Scott. 169 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,200 And this is in the United States. 170 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,880 I imagine in some countries it would be much higher than that. 171 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:44,240 In the United States in the 1800s, almost half of children that were born would not 172 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,120 reach the age of five. 173 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Now just think about this for a minute. 174 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:58,200 If thousands of years, the children being born on this earth and approximately half 175 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:08,160 of them not surviving the age of accountability, think how many of God's children, his sons 176 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,200 and daughters, are in the celestial kingdom. 177 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:20,520 That is an amazing statement of the mercy and grace of the Atonement of Jesus Christ 178 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,200 and the love of God. 179 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:30,320 I just think it's wrong for anybody to even believe for a second that most of God's children 180 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,480 are not going to be in the celestial kingdom. 181 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:38,960 I think it will definitely be the most populated kingdom just based on this point of doctrine 182 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:39,960 alone. 183 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,160 Right, yeah, yeah. 184 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,840 So I'm just really grateful for that. 185 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,940 My wife and I have, we have no official doctrine in the church when it comes to stillborns. 186 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:57,880 But my sweetheart and I have had to suffer through that, through having stillborns. 187 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:58,960 There's been miscarriages. 188 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,460 We have, again, there's not an official statement. 189 00:15:02,460 --> 00:15:09,680 But I think one can know through the Spirit about certain things that maybe, or there's 190 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,840 not an official doctrine in the church. 191 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,480 And we have buried a couple of babies. 192 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:24,960 And I am so thankful for this point of doctrine and the power, the mercy, the grace of the 193 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,000 Atonement of Jesus Christ that covers children. 194 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,280 We'll use several times in this podcast the word covered. 195 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:43,720 And just to remind our listeners that the Hebrew word kafar is the Old Testament Hebrew 196 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:50,200 form of atonement or reconciliation, which means to cover, to cover. 197 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:57,480 I just think that's such a sweet description of what the Atonement of Jesus Christ does. 198 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,360 It covers us. 199 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,720 It compensates for us. 200 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:09,680 I think of a blanket, a warm blanket covering us or certain powers of the Atonement that 201 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,880 make up for our inefficiencies or inadequacies. 202 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:22,920 So let's maybe talk about another unconditional aspect of the Atonement of our Savior that 203 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,880 overcomes spiritual death. 204 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,880 I had an experience many years ago, Scott. 205 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,680 We were invited to participate in the church's program, family home evening program at the 206 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:44,680 Utah State Penitentiary at the point of the mountain here in Utah. 207 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:52,240 And we were invited to kind of adopt a prisoner and one, someone who didn't really have a 208 00:16:52,240 --> 00:17:00,600 family and, and we would go every first Monday of the month and we would have family home 209 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,000 evening with this prisoner. 210 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,280 We would share a gospel message. 211 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,040 I remember being a little nervous about this. 212 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,840 I had four small children. 213 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,400 I was in my mid thirties. 214 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:22,320 We went up to the prison of the first Monday of the month and we were went through four 215 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:31,240 iron doors and got into the non-denominational chapel and we were introduced to a man by 216 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,240 the name. 217 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,560 Well, I won't share his name. 218 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:42,520 His name was David and like my name is David, but we were introduced to this man, David, 219 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,600 who had been in prison for 14 years. 220 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,600 And I didn't know anything about him. 221 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:55,640 And we had a little opening exercise and then we were taken to a room where we went in this 222 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:04,040 room alone, my family with this inmate and he wanted to know about us and we wanted to 223 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:10,080 know about him and we just had this amazing experience introducing ourselves and him telling 224 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,040 us a little bit about himself. 225 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:17,720 And I remember when he started to introduce himself, he said, I suppose you're wondering 226 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,840 why I'm here. 227 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,320 And I stopped him and I said, no, if it's okay, David, we don't need to know why you're 228 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:25,320 here. 229 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,800 We, we want to focus on your future and the present, not so much the past because I didn't 230 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:37,360 want my children to be afraid of him or to think of him really as a, as a criminal. 231 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:43,400 So he, I didn't really know why he was there and at the time didn't really care. 232 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,040 So we just had this unbelievable experience. 233 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:51,880 He was a bodybuilder and he, he, I don't know if this was against the rules, but he took 234 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,800 off his shirt and started doing, you know, showing us flexing for us. 235 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,120 Probably a minor infraction at best. 236 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,320 I think that probably was probably inappropriate, but I know my daughter's shirt thought it was 237 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:04,320 awesome. 238 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,040 You know, they were, they were pretty young. 239 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,880 I think they were a 10 and 11 or something like that. 240 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,040 Anyway, it was pretty impressive and it made me a little nervous because he, he told us 241 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:23,160 he, he bench pressed about 500 pounds and he was only five, nine, five, 10, but he was 242 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,640 just, there was no body fat on him. 243 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Anyway, we had this delightful experience and we came to love him and always looked forward 244 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:42,120 for two, for, for just over two years we did that, but about six months into it, I guess 245 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:47,600 six or seven months into it, I had a volunteer card. 246 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,440 So I would try to go up once a month and go to church with him. 247 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:59,840 He wasn't a member, he happened to be Muslim and he was black and I wanted to kind of convert 248 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:01,040 him. 249 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:07,000 So I was encouraging to go to church and would go with him, go up there and go to attend church 250 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000 with him. 251 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,920 And I went up there one Sunday to go to church with him and the bishop was waiting for me 252 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:20,440 and said, brother Durfee, David came to see me this week and he's been really depressed. 253 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,760 And he, he needs to talk to you. 254 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,680 He needs, he's afraid that when you find out why he's here, that you'll stop bringing 255 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:35,160 your family and he, he's really come to love your family. 256 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,280 And I said, well, I'm fine with knowing, I just didn't want my kids to know and the bishop 257 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,220 said, I understand, of course. 258 00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:50,800 So the bishop got David and me together and put us in, I think his office and for over 259 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,480 an hour, David told me his story. 260 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:00,520 And I was again in my mid 30s and I had, I had just never imagined some of these things 261 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,800 got, I think I was pretty naive. 262 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:16,760 Anyway, he told us that he was born to a prostitute and his mother was a prostitute and he never 263 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:23,640 had a dad or had any father figure in his life and she was quite abusive. 264 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:31,520 And at the age of six, she forced him into child prostitution and I'll never forget the 265 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:37,520 words, quote, my mother made a lot of money off of me. 266 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:46,760 And I just was so disheartened listening to his story and the abuse that he went through. 267 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:53,560 He also told me a story about, he had a big dent in his forehead, right in the middle 268 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:54,560 of his forehead. 269 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,720 He had this big dent, this impression in his forehead. 270 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:08,200 And he told me that he was 10 years old and his mother hit him in the head with a tire 271 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:16,120 iron when he was sound asleep because he had forgotten to take out the garbage that morning. 272 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:24,880 And he knew that he was, you know, his life was in danger of living there. 273 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,240 He had started to complain about the child prostitution, the acts of child prostitution 274 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,080 and she gave him his first shot of heroin when he was eight years old. 275 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,160 Oh my gosh. 276 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,120 So he was a drug addict. 277 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:47,480 He was through no choice of his own and ran away from home for his life really out of 278 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:55,000 survival when he was 12 years old, living on the streets of Kansas City, Missouri. 279 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:01,080 And at the age of 14, he said he had a gun and I'll never forget these words. 280 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:09,760 He said to me, I hated my mother, but in some strange way, I loved her and I thought I could 281 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,240 help her. 282 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,160 So I went home. 283 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:21,120 And it wasn't many days that he was home that she did something that set him off and he 284 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,880 shot his mother. 285 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:33,440 And he became kind of the property of the state in their juvenile detention system. 286 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,680 And at the age of 18, he had the opportunity to get out of Missouri by joining the Peace 287 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:41,680 Corps. 288 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,600 And he joined the Peace Corps and he ends up in Utah. 289 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,400 And in Utah at the age of 18, something happened. 290 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:57,440 I don't know any specifics, but he, somebody did something to him that set him off and 291 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:04,800 he killed a man, shot and killed a man committed a second murder at the age of 18. 292 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800 So he was given 10 years to life. 293 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,560 And I met him when he was 32. 294 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:18,520 So he'd been in for 14 and we, we just developed this really sweet relationship. 295 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,720 But I remember that day. 296 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:28,200 I'll never forget that day and coming home and thinking, wow, wow, he never had a chance. 297 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,720 Never, never had a chance. 298 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:38,160 And for months, Scott, I prayed about what is there any, is there any chance for him 299 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,800 here and now or in the afterlife? 300 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:50,440 And it really caused me, my experience with him was life changing because of what it kind 301 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:58,800 of forced me to study and learn about the powers and blessings of the Atonement of Jesus 302 00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,800 Christ. 303 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:07,600 And I, I, I don't know how accountable he, he David is or isn't. 304 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,600 I don't know that. 305 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:09,600 I'm not the judge. 306 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,080 I don't know his mind. 307 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,880 I don't know what really happened there. 308 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,560 But I know God does. 309 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:24,160 And I do know that in the Book of Mormon, this is so, when I, when I really, I had read this 310 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:31,040 so probably so many times on my, my mission and, and in teaching seminary, but it never 311 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:37,200 made any, didn't mean anything to me until after meeting, going to the prison. 312 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:44,320 And, and developing a close brotherhood and relationship with, with David. 313 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:52,640 And we read in Mosiah chapter three, King Benjamin's address, he, after describing 314 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Gethsemane and blood coming from every poor in verse seven in verse nine, it says, and 315 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:04,040 lo he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men, even through 316 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,720 faith on his name. 317 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:13,960 And even after all this, they shall consider him a man and say that he hath a devil, and 318 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,720 they shall scourge him and shall crucify him. 319 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:24,040 And he shall rise the third day from the dead and behold, he, Jesus Christ, standeth to 320 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,120 judge the world and behold, all these things are done. 321 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:32,400 This is so important. 322 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,440 Why are all these things done? 323 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:43,800 All these things are done that a righteous judgment might come up on the children of 324 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,800 men. 325 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,880 I used to ask my students, Scott, when I would teach this course in Institute, I would always 326 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,480 ask, so what's, what's a righteous judgment? 327 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,000 Use another word to describe a righteous judgment. 328 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,040 And they would say merciful, and I'd say good. 329 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,080 And they would say loving, and I'd say good. 330 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,040 And somebody would always end up saying fair judgment. 331 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,680 The judgment will be fair. 332 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:19,840 And I would, and I would always go, yes, the judgment will be all of those things. 333 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,280 But it will definitely be a righteous judgment is a fair judgment that a righteous judgment 334 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,000 might come upon the children of men. 335 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,400 Now get this verse. 336 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,240 This is amazing. 337 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:38,400 For behold, and also his blood atoneth, for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression 338 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:47,400 of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly 339 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,320 sinned. 340 00:27:51,320 --> 00:28:00,200 How many people in this world have ignorantly sinned, who have not known really the commandments 341 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,400 who haven't really known the laws of God? 342 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,400 There I believe, well we probably have all in our lives ignorantly sinned. 343 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,960 But there's so many people in this world who just don't have the same knowledge and understanding 344 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,840 and standards and therefore not as accountable as we are. 345 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:26,760 It's amazing to think how many people in this world from the time of Adam and Eve until 346 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,800 now who have ignorantly sinned. 347 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,080 The Atonement of Jesus Christ covers them. 348 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:43,200 And again, I'm not the judge, but I believe that may cover somebody like my friend David, 349 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,640 who maybe wasn't in his right mind when he did some of those things. 350 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,800 Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. 351 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,520 I think this ignorantly sinned can be more than just, well, I didn't know. 352 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:01,320 Because David, I'm associated with guys like your David on a pretty constant basis. 353 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:07,040 They're not incarcerated anymore, but many of them have been. 354 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:13,440 And this is a pretty prevalent scenario, I think, that runs through the lives of those 355 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,000 folks that have those types of issues going on in their lives. 356 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,240 To know is one thing, but to be conditioned to be able to even carry out the things that 357 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,240 we know. 358 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120 I mean, I think that we all have the light of Christ, right? 359 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,360 Somebody's thinking that right now, even as we're saying this, somebody's listening 360 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,160 to this podcast saying, we all have a conscience. 361 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,120 Yeah, but we all have the light of Christ. 362 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,160 And so we're all, we all have to have integrity towards that light of Christ that we have, 363 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,160 which is true. 364 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560 We are not refuting that at all. 365 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:53,200 What we are saying is this, if a kid is born into a situation where at a age before he's 366 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,720 even accountable. 367 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,080 Before his minds develop. 368 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:02,240 Before it's even began to be developed in ways that will help him in the future to make 369 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,240 these types of decisions. 370 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,200 And we see this, it's not just David. 371 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,600 There are Davids out there. 372 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,760 There are Davids listening right now to the things that we're talking about. 373 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,880 And here's the message. 374 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:21,080 We do need to be responsible and we do need to have integrity to that which we do know. 375 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:29,400 There are things sometimes in a person's past, especially in an impressionable child's past 376 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,920 that can and will affect their decisions in life. 377 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,600 And that can be decisions and that can be emotions that affect decisions and that can 378 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,280 be so many other things. 379 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:46,000 And so, you know, I think that as we study this and just this part of it, we can see 380 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,200 the mercy and love come through this part, just this one component of the atonement. 381 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:58,440 The mercy and love from a heavenly Father and His Son comes through to us in such strong 382 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:04,720 waves that I think that if we are able to hook on to that and make that a part of our 383 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,040 lives, that this healing, this redemption, that all of the things that we start moving 384 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,640 towards and for now are easier for us to accomplish, easier for us to do. 385 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,880 And if nothing else, and if for no other reason, we're just less hard on ourselves, you know. 386 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,760 Yeah, we're going to make mistakes. 387 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,240 We're definitely going to be accountable for that which we know. 388 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,440 But there are those who it will be different a little bit for. 389 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:32,440 Yeah. 390 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,000 I thank you, Scott. 391 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:45,520 I don't know who that covers and who it doesn't cover, but I believe to some aspect, some in 392 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:53,360 some degree or another, it covers all of us that make mistakes or sin because of the false 393 00:31:53,360 --> 00:32:02,560 traditions of our fathers and because of the things that have been impressed upon our minds 394 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:09,440 and that we sometimes react before we have really the opportunity to really think it 395 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,840 out and to act. 396 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:22,760 I know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ allows us to act and not to be acted upon. 397 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,280 I know that. 398 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:32,280 I love how Elder Bednar has emphasized that over the years of his apostolic since he was 399 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,840 called his apostolic ministry. 400 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:43,400 But the fact is, some have been acted upon and because they've been acted upon, it has 401 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,400 affected how they act. 402 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:54,120 And maybe they haven't had their moral center completely developed in their mind and maybe 403 00:32:54,120 --> 00:33:01,440 it affected how they were wired or that there are some individuals who before they were 404 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:08,960 able to act were acted upon and it affects their behavior the rest of their life. 405 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:14,400 I'm not trying to make anybody an exception or use, I hope nobody takes anything we say 406 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,640 and uses it for an excuse. 407 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,240 Never, no. 408 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:29,000 But the reality is Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of all the world and that 409 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:39,040 includes the sins of those who act out ignorantly. 410 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:47,160 Even Jacob teaches in 2nd Nephi chapter 2 that those who don't have the law are covered 411 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,040 by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 412 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,200 You know, and so many times, so often David for example, you know, I'd like to know his 413 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,320 mother's story. 414 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:06,120 And so on and her parents' stories and so on and on and on the cycle on and on. 415 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,400 And I think that, you know, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, this not only helps us to 416 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,160 live better lives for ourselves, but through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, David, I think 417 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:21,160 that we now can with empathy and love in our hearts, turn our decisions to, you know what, 418 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,520 I'm going to make a decision to be understanding towards that person. 419 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,920 I'm going to make a decision to love that person and give them the benefit of the doubt 420 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,880 because I don't know what it was like to be them growing up. 421 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:35,880 Right. 422 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,960 Even their parents, like we said before. 423 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:44,000 And so, you know, the Atonement of Jesus Christ not only allows me to feel compensated for 424 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,800 those things in my own life, but it gives me better empathy and love towards those who 425 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,520 might need that extended their way. 426 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,160 I think that's an awesome application. 427 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:02,760 If we understood the doctrine of how the Atonement covers those who have ignorantly sinned, Scott, 428 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:10,400 we would be so much more merciful, gracious, forgiving towards individuals who have maybe 429 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:17,360 hurt us or offended us or done things that they shouldn't have done. 430 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,880 We would be able to maybe let it go and forgive them more quickly if we understood this point 431 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:25,880 of doctrine. 432 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,200 As a matter of fact, it's important that we do let it go. 433 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,800 You know, we've been commanded and if we're really truly to be Christ-like, we are to 434 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:39,160 forgive how often 70 times 7, you know, which is just symbolism for you forgive through 435 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,880 perfection, right? 436 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,880 You forgive perfectly. 437 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,680 And so we've been commanded to forgive like that. 438 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,920 And you know, we should be able to extend that even to those who are our family members, 439 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,160 who may have done things and, you know, and I'm trying to be sensitive here because this 440 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,680 is not an indictment on anybody. 441 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:04,320 But I know that there are a lot of us who, and when I say a lot of us, all of us to some 442 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:10,040 degree or another have been affected by things from that have happened to us in our past. 443 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,040 Right. 444 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,320 As little kids, as teenagers, whatever, even as adults, whatever the case may be. 445 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:21,520 Now we are responsible to do what we can do and we've been given tools and through Heavenly 446 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:28,720 Father's blessings and literally blessings, we can overcome those kinds of things. 447 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,720 It's not my job though to judge somebody else. 448 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:39,680 Only God and that, only God and that person can really know that and understand their 449 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:49,160 accountability, but you know, people who have been sexually abused so often become abusers. 450 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:59,040 And I just think it's so critical that those who have been abused, usually by those who 451 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:09,320 have been abused, by those who have been abused, that it would just help us all to understand 452 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:18,440 how the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers not only those acts of abuse, but to some degree, 453 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:25,520 and again, I don't know, covers those individuals. 454 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,840 You know, I've been a bishop. 455 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:33,320 I know all other bishops, state presidents, who have to set in judgment representing, 456 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:41,160 trying as hard as they can to represent the Lord Jesus Christ in the church and have to 457 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:48,920 help individuals who have been abused or have been affected by abuse or who have acted out 458 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,280 because of their abuse. 459 00:37:53,280 --> 00:38:04,880 The Holy Spirit has touched me over and over again in those cases where someone who has 460 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:15,400 had a perfect childhood and then acts out out of rebellion is different than an individual 461 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:24,320 who acts out who because of the sins heaped upon them, they are now ignorantly sinning. 462 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:31,360 Again, I know it's more complicated than we can understand, but I just think that's 463 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:41,040 so beautiful that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our Savior, our Redeemer covers all of those 464 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:48,520 sins that have been committed ignorantly, all those individuals who have sinned ignorantly. 465 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,520 What a blessing. 466 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:58,280 I mean, you know, that should give hope to all of us because at some level, to some degree, 467 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,400 we are all your inmate friend. 468 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:08,960 We just have, I mean, there's just parts of all of us that need the depth and level of 469 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,720 the Atonement of Jesus Christ that David did. 470 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:12,720 Yeah. 471 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,520 Well, here's the rest of that story. 472 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,920 It gets even more personal. 473 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,800 So because we had had a couple of stillborns, we decided that we would adopt. 474 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:32,000 And because of our relationship with David, we wanted to adopt a black baby. 475 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,440 That's where that desire really started. 476 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:42,480 And so we started to check into adoption agencies who specialized in adopting black babies. 477 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,640 We reached out to Denver and Houston and Philadelphia. 478 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,320 And Philadelphia contacted us. 479 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,680 They had a baby who had had some challenges. 480 00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:00,400 They had to take the baby out of the home because of a court order, because the baby 481 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,680 had been abused. 482 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,560 And they asked us if we'd be interested. 483 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,560 And we just felt inspired and impressed to do this. 484 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,920 Went to the temple and thought it was the right thing to do. 485 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,680 So we went back to Philadelphia and adopted this baby. 486 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,040 And the next Monday was our Monday to go to the prison. 487 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:32,160 And we were all, as a family, so excited to take this black baby to the prison and have 488 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,400 the baby meet David. 489 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,800 David knew about us doing this process. 490 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:42,320 In fact, he was so supportive of it that, and in fact, if he wouldn't have been supportive, 491 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,120 we wouldn't have done it. 492 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,640 That's how close we were to him. 493 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,160 And he was so excited to see us. 494 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,680 He knew we had gone back to Philadelphia. 495 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,000 He knew that we were coming. 496 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:05,400 And so we show up to the chapel, we get to the chapel of the prison, and we go early. 497 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,840 And I'm surprised because David's sitting in the chapel waiting for us. 498 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,400 And there's only David and our family. 499 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,000 And he looks like a million bucks. 500 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,000 He knew this baby was coming. 501 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,600 And he had slicked back his hair, greased back his hair. 502 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:25,680 He had, I don't know why he pulled this off, but his blue jeans were starched and hard-creased 503 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,600 like suit pants. 504 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,120 And his, at the time, they wore blue shirts in prison. 505 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:36,540 Now they wear white, but he had his blue denim shirt on, and that was starched in his top 506 00:41:36,540 --> 00:41:38,600 button button. 507 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,960 And I said, David, you look like a million bucks and 50 cents. 508 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,560 And he was so excited. 509 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,200 And I said, you want to hold the baby? 510 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:49,680 And he said, yes. 511 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,480 And so I took the baby and gave him to David. 512 00:41:53,480 --> 00:42:01,480 And David, in his big hands, and holds this baby, and he starts to kind of shake. 513 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,560 And I said, David, he likes to kind of be held close. 514 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,120 And David rolled him into his huge, muscley arms. 515 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,080 And I said, no, no, David, you're going to crush him. 516 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,280 Look, let me show you how to hold the baby. 517 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,400 So I took the baby. 518 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:21,280 Isaac is our baby, and I take Isaac, and I say, you got to hold him like this. 519 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,320 And so he holds him and starts to rock him. 520 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,440 And something happened. 521 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:34,840 David looks into Isaac's eyes, and Isaac looks into David's eyes. 522 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:43,120 And David becomes, I mean, it's just like you could see his whole countenance fall. 523 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,200 He became deeply depressed. 524 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,720 It was like immediate. 525 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,880 And he hands me back the baby, and he won't talk to us the rest of the night. 526 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,440 And I'm thinking, oh, man, I can't get him to answer any questions. 527 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:58,440 He won't talk to us. 528 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,200 He just keeps putting up his hands in the air and shaking his head. 529 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,280 No, don't talk to me. 530 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,280 And it was awful. 531 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,120 What was supposed to turn out to be an amazing experience. 532 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,160 Not for me, but for my children. 533 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,800 I was just so excited for my children to have this experience. 534 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,200 It turned out to be awful. 535 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,000 And I was really upset and went home that night. 536 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,560 The next day I went back to prison because I had a volunteer card, and I went back right 537 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,880 after I got through teaching seminary on Tuesday. 538 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,880 And they let me in to see David, to visit him. 539 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,640 And I went right into his house because I was a volunteer in what he called his house. 540 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:47,160 And there in the lunch room, we're sitting at a table. 541 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:52,120 And I said, hey, listen, listen to me, David. 542 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,880 I don't know what happened last night. 543 00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:02,720 But if every time we bring that baby to family home evening, if you're going to act like 544 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,120 that, and it's going to make you depressed, then we're done. 545 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,400 We're not going to come anymore. 546 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:15,600 I was just so mad at how it had turned out, mostly for my other children. 547 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,920 And I remember him taking his fist and hitting the table. 548 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,120 And he was angry. 549 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,000 And he said, it's a little late for that, don't you think? 550 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:33,400 For the first time in my life, I held a baby. 551 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:39,080 That is the first time in my life I have held a baby. 552 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,680 And I have never felt such love. 553 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:50,640 I have just one question for you, he said. 554 00:44:50,640 --> 00:45:04,520 Why wouldn't God allow me to be born into a family like yours? 555 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:11,920 Why wouldn't He give me a mother like Isaac now has? 556 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:17,080 Why didn't I have that opportunity? 557 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:24,400 Well, I had completely misunderstood. 558 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:34,520 I had no idea what David had thought, what he had felt that day before. 559 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:41,040 And my heart was broken. 560 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,520 And Scott, this is one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had in my life, really, 561 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:54,280 because there in that moment, in the prison, I knew by the power and gift of the Holy 562 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,280 Ghost what God wanted me to say. 563 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:06,640 In response to David's questions, his question was, why didn't God give me a mother and family 564 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,080 like yours? 565 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,040 And I knew what to say. 566 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:13,400 I did. 567 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:14,920 I had been thinking about this. 568 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,440 I had been searching the scriptures. 569 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:24,040 And I knew that I could say this to him by the power of the Spirit. 570 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:38,480 And I said, David, I don't know why, but I know this, that someday, if it is your desire 571 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,720 to have a family like that, that you will have a family like that. 572 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:53,560 And someday, David, you will have the opportunity to have a mother like that. 573 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,640 I knew that was true. 574 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,240 He knew that was true. 575 00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:00,760 He felt the Holy Ghost. 576 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:06,360 This Muslim murderer felt the Holy Ghost. 577 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,360 I knew it, Scott. 578 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,120 I recognized it. 579 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:20,460 And he sat there with tears rolling down his cheeks, nodding his head, yes. 580 00:47:20,460 --> 00:47:22,040 We both knew. 581 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:31,960 And I said to him, and this is possible only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. 582 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:41,680 One day, you'll have a family and a mother like that, and he nodded his head, yes. 583 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:49,240 Unfortunately, David will never, something happened. 584 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,360 It's another long story. 585 00:47:51,360 --> 00:48:00,560 While we were still seeing him, he got in a fight with somebody in prison who had apparently 586 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:06,520 raped a Mormon missionary, sister of a missionary or something, and David found out about it. 587 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,160 And David almost killed this other prisoner. 588 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,480 And he's been institutionalized. 589 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,680 The parole board said he'll never get out of prison. 590 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,480 He's in there for the rest of his life. 591 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,560 It's been many years since I've seen him, but I still love him. 592 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:34,160 And I still know that someday David will have a family and a mother made possible only through 593 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,200 the atonement of Jesus Christ. 594 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:45,560 And then, Scott, this son that we care, this baby that we carried in there, this son who 595 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:59,560 we love, Isaac, that we carried into prison at the age of 26, went back to prison, this 596 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,920 time as an inmate himself. 597 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:16,520 And my sweet son, my eternal son, sealed to us as if he were born in the covenant. 598 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,000 Something like that's the wording they use in the temple when they seal babies that are 599 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,600 adopted. 600 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,560 And then at 26, he goes back to prison. 601 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:27,560 He goes to prison. 602 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,040 Now, as an inmate. 603 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,920 And what people, I think, don't understand, and I'm not trying to make excuses. 604 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:41,200 I'm not making any excuses for him or anyone else in any of this discussion. 605 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,720 But my son was born as a fetal alcohol baby. 606 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:47,960 His mind has never been fully developed. 607 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,200 He still acts and sees himself as an adolescent. 608 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,680 He struggles with bipolar. 609 00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:06,320 He has a form of autism, Asperger's, and was abused as an infant, which psychiatrists 610 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,240 and experts have written a lot about how that can imprint even on an infant for the 611 00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:19,320 rest of their life, things that they act out on that they don't even know why. 612 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:29,320 So I have a son who I am so thankful in some way is covered, even though he grew up in 613 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:35,200 the church and he loves the church and he loves the prophets and he loves the Lord. 614 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:46,200 But for whatever reason, making no excuses, he does things that are really sad and really 615 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:53,040 hurtful, and I am so sorry for all of the wrong that he has done and all of the victims 616 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,000 he has left in his wake. 617 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,480 I'm just, I'm so sad by that. 618 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:11,360 But I know that because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that someday it will all work 619 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:24,800 out and that maybe even he is covered and that life, life and the judgment are fair 620 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,480 because of the power of Christ Atonement. 621 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:38,720 It's really easy for us to build a case around David in prison, your adopted inmate in prison. 622 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:42,600 We didn't have a very good starting life, not probably, we didn't have a very good starting 623 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:43,600 life, neither did Isaac. 624 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:44,600 We didn't have a shot. 625 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:45,600 We didn't have a shot. 626 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:50,000 Many of us do though, many of us do have what would seemingly be a really good shot in 627 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:56,360 life and we still at some times can have slips, we can make mistakes, we can go contrary to 628 00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:02,360 our integrity, we can make decisions that we promised we would never make and we make 629 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:03,360 them anyway. 630 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:09,800 And sometimes some of us, even though we had a great start, there will be times when I've 631 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,120 been asked this, Scott, why'd you do that? 632 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:20,040 And the question is valid, the answer seems weak, but it's true and I've heard it a million 633 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,240 times from other people too. 634 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:24,960 I don't know, I really don't know. 635 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,360 You know, I know, but the answer is not sufficient or adequate. 636 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,040 But I can't say, you know, because I do know this because I'm a fallen man, because I've 637 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,680 separated the spiritual death because I've, you know, and I'm going through all this stuff. 638 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,600 I know that, but what about those? 639 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,400 And I'm saying this mostly rhetorically, this is something for us to consider because I 640 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,400 think that the answer is clear, but I want to bring it out. 641 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,600 I want to really emphasize how important this is. 642 00:52:53,600 --> 00:53:00,280 Most of us who are listening to this podcast cannot identify, I'm not David in prison. 643 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,000 Most of us can't identify. 644 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:08,080 Some can and, you know, to those our hearts go out and our prayers are deep and our hope 645 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,200 is eternal. 646 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:16,880 But some of us haven't had those types of things and we still make mortal decisions. 647 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,800 We still make natural man mistakes. 648 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,360 But we look back and we say, yeah, but I didn't go through all that. 649 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,560 So I am more accountable, which we probably are more accountable, but we are less. 650 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,560 We are, let me rephrase that. 651 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:37,160 We are no less affected by the Atonement of Jesus Christ than those that did. 652 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:38,160 Yeah. 653 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,200 Yeah, for sure. 654 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:51,040 Now this doctrine in regards to the powers of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I think 655 00:53:51,040 --> 00:54:02,800 is it changes our behaviors as we learn and understand the breadth and the depth of the 656 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,880 mercy and grace of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 657 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:15,160 And it's it is taught so clearly in the Book of Mormon, in the scriptures and and by the 658 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:16,320 prophets. 659 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:23,440 I think one of my, I think it is my favorite statement in all of preach my gospel is on 660 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:34,800 page 52 and it says, quote, all that is unfair about life can be made right through the Atonement 661 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,640 of Jesus Christ. 662 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,000 Well I I love that and I I know it's true, Scott. 663 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:53,520 I a few years ago, I had the opportunity to go to prison to visit my son and Elder Anderson 664 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,600 wanted to go with me. 665 00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:02,440 He had made arrangements for both of us to go early on a Sunday morning to visit Isaac. 666 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:11,480 He wanted to meet Isaac and he had arranged with the bishop to address the other inmates. 667 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:19,400 This was right before COVID and we went up there on an early Sunday morning and went 668 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:25,560 into a room after Isaac and Elder Anderson had had an opportunity to meet and talk and 669 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:32,880 so sweet by the way and to watch that as a father and then to go into a room with about 670 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:40,720 a 80 other inmates in white jumpsuits or white pants and shirts and and I just kind of stood 671 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:48,680 back and I watched this apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ minister literally minister to 672 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,440 these inmates. 673 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,800 I I could feel his love for them and I know they felt it too. 674 00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:02,800 There was one man there who you know was all tattooed up and looked hard and most of the 675 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:08,120 inmates stood for Elder Anderson when he shook their hands but a few of them didn't and this 676 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:14,560 man didn't and then elder any in fact he was leaning forward sitting down leaning forward 677 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:23,040 looking at the floor when Elder Anderson came over to him and started to pat him on the back. 678 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:31,480 Elder Anderson patting him on the back and said hi my name is Neil can I meet you and 679 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:40,040 this man looks up at him and Elder Anderson puts out his hand and this man reached forth 680 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:47,200 his hand and I think he felt a little of the love of God in that moment and it was a sweet 681 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:52,880 interchange and then Elder Anderson spoke to the inmates we were there for about two hours 682 00:56:52,880 --> 00:57:01,080 and he would he he shared his witness and testimony and he asked them if they had questions 683 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:08,960 and I'll never forget one inmate saying in some frustration and and really heart wrenching 684 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:20,320 in a heart wrenching voice said Elder Anderson some of us have lost everything we've lost 685 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:30,040 our wives our children our family our opportunities our membership in the church our everything 686 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:39,840 that's dear to us some of us have lost everything and I remember Elder Anderson after listening 687 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:54,600 to this man cry out Elder Anderson said with great compassion and great feeling he answered 688 00:57:54,600 --> 00:58:04,320 I want to testify to you that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ you have lost nothing 689 00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:15,800 that cannot be restored to you now I sat there amazed by what he was saying and I knew that 690 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:23,080 of course there's some things that can't be restored because of sin right time there's 691 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:28,040 sometimes time and sometimes opportunities and but maybe maybe some of that can be restored 692 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:35,040 too in the next life other opportunities can come their way maybe they'll maybe they'll 693 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:41,560 get married again and have that marriage sealed and have children and I sat there thinking 694 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:47,880 Scott about this and I thought wow and I and I knew that this inmate and all the other 695 00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:57,520 inmates were feeling this wow to get this vision of beyond this life of all that could 696 00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:06,400 be restored to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ either through the compensatory 697 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:16,160 blessings the enabling blessings or the redemptive blessings based on our desires based on our 698 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:25,960 accountability based on our faith based on our repentance that really Scott the scripture 699 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:35,320 that went through my mind was Isaiah that there will be beauty out of ashes that out 700 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:40,760 of something that's really bad and really ugly that the atonement of Jesus Christ can 701 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:48,080 make really beautiful so I as we end this podcast just bear my testimony to you Scott 702 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:57,640 into all of our listeners of the mercy and grace and power that is available to us in 703 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:07,480 our lives because of the redeeming atonement of Jesus Christ as we round out this podcast 704 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:13,080 and we'll move again into the next podcast will continue down the same vein of the effects 705 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:18,320 of the atonement of Jesus Christ I just hope that all of us because there is application 706 01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:23,560 for every single one of us listening to this podcast regardless of where we are in our 707 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:29,000 lives if we're going to the temple daily weekly and I'm not saying that's what we should 708 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,560 be doing but if that is what you're doing that's one thing and if you're still just 709 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:38,600 trying to figure out a faith crisis maybe maybe our testimonies aren't as strong whatever 710 01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:45,080 the case may be I just hope that all of us can see ourselves in something that we've 711 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:51,400 talked about today because we are there and if we are there so is he and if he is there 712 01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,040 then there's hope and there's redemption through all of the garbage that we go through in 713 01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:01,800 our lives I testify that that's true I've lived that and I'm still living that today 714 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:09,920 the good part of that today I'm still living that redemptive compensatory and enabling powers 715 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,520 of the atonement of Jesus Christ in my own life because of the principles that we are 716 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:22,480 sharing here and that's our mission here is to just instill hope in you to just give you 717 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:29,280 that same hope that same love that same vision that he loves us that he cares deeply for 718 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:36,280 us that he is aware of ourselves more deeply aware even than we are of what we need and 719 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:43,120 how we can obtain absolute joy and happiness in this world for that is his intent for us 720 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:49,200 we're glad that you're with us today remember the email he redeems us at gmail.com we love 721 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:55,320 your comments we love to get any input or questions that you may have that we may address 722 01:01:55,320 --> 01:02:01,280 here on the podcast as well thanks for being with us as always God bless you know that 723 01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,200 he loves you and this week as you're sitting in sacrament meeting the for those of you 724 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:10,920 who do and particularly the sacrament remember remember that as we renew covenants there 725 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:16,000 we invite the gift of the Holy Ghost we invite his constant companionship which is the promise 726 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:22,400 that we receive there and as we do so that is exactly how we put on the covering or the 727 01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,320 tolement of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we look forward to you to being with you next 728 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:53,320 week until then have a great week everybody.