Hey there everybody, welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood.
In this podcast we discuss hope healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus
Christ.
My name's Scott Durfee.
I want to be the first to welcome you out today and as always it's my honor to welcome
you.
My partner in this project, our amazing teacher and my friend, brother David Durfee.
Say hi Dave.
So good to be here.
Last week we spoke about the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Finished our discussion about that and I'm looking forward today to begin talking about
the, all the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Super excited to get this going today.
We've spent a great deal of time covering the most important stuff that we could ever
potentially address in our lives and it's been a lot of fun doing that over the last
eleven or so episodes.
As this one rolls out now we'll be getting into more of the effects of the Atonement
of Jesus Christ and I think that everybody will at least fill an invitation from the
Spirit to apply the things that we're learning and make our lives better for doing that.
Before we get into that topic today though I want to take care of just a couple of real
quick items of business.
First off we want to thank you for your emails.
We've received some feedback over the last few weeks and are grateful for that.
We've also received several questions that we've been able to address privately.
If you have those we wouldn't mind you just sending us an email if they're appropriate
we can address them and maybe even talk about them in some, to some extent here on the podcast.
And our email is heredeemsusatgmail.com.
That's heredeemsusatgmail.com.
So once again just encourage your questions, comments, etc.
When you go to the various podcast outlets if you wouldn't mind liking, giving us a
like there and maybe even review we'd really appreciate that as well.
So as Dave just mentioned over the last three episodes we really got into the events of
the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
We started before that too.
I mean there's four real pillars to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and before that we talked
in great deal about the number one, His Sinless Life and why it needed to be that way.
And then we moved into the Garden of Gethsemane where we talked about the pain and the suffering
and the bleeding from every pore and even the betrayal that had happened just prior
to that and everything that went on.
And then we moved from there to the Cross on Golgotha and really emphasized the importance
of our understanding and our coming to Him there at the cross where He paid, continued
and finished paying for our sins and all of the iniquities and pains and sorrows of the
world.
From there last week we spent a great deal of time talking about hope in the resurrection,
hope in the many things that we'll be moving into now as we start talking about the effects
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And one of the scriptures that we read, I just want to address it and visit it one more
time, this was brought to our attention by President Nelson, our prophet.
In a talk he talked about how important it was and why the Atonement of Jesus Christ
was and why Jesus did what He did.
And this is from Hebrews 12 to Dave and from here I think that we'll be able to springboard
into our discussion today.
But I just wanted to just as a reminder to ourselves and to our listeners address and
visit this scripture one more time.
This is in Hebrews 12 to where it says the author of Hebrews which was probably Paul
says, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set
before him endured the cross.
So I think that's important for us to remember that as painful and as horrific and hellacious
as everything it was that Jesus went through, there was a great deal of joy, unfathomable
joy, joy that we can't comprehend that was set before him and that helped him and encouraged
him and gave him strength to do the things that he did.
So Dave, now that we have talked about all of the events, in some detail there's much
more and we could write volumes and speak days and weeks just on that topic.
But in some depth we've gotten into the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Now we really move into and I've said this before in other podcasts, this is where the
rubber hits the road.
Well, this is where the rubber hits the road again just in a different way.
This is where we start having the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ alive and well
in our lives to the degree that our spiritual wellness is intact.
In other words, to the degree that we are inviting the Holy Spirit into our lives.
So Dave, with that, where do we go?
Well, it's important that we review briefly that because of the fall of Adam and Eve and
the universal fall of all mankind, that there were two major negatives, spiritual death
and physical death.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ unconditionally and conditionally overcome both of those.
So whenever we speak of the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, there are always
two aspects to it.
The unconditional aspects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the conditional aspects
of His Atonement.
So when we speak of spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam and Eve and the being
cast out of God's presence, Adam and Eve, and that all of us were cut off from the presence
of God and that we have all suffered this form of spiritual death being cut off from
our heavenly home into a hellish, mortal, celestial world.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ unconditionally overcomes that in, I believe, three or four
major ways.
We talked about one of them a few episodes ago, which is that we will all return to our
heavenly home.
All of God's children will have a face-to-face interview reckoning judgment with Him.
We will all unconditionally return to His presence.
That's only possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
So that's one unconditional aspect of how the Savior's Atonement unconditionally overcomes
spiritual death.
And here's another way it unconditionally overcomes spiritual death is that all children who die
before the age of accountability all are unconditionally redeemed and will return to the highest kingdom
of glory to the celestial worlds.
That's unconditional, Scott.
And I think this is one of the greatest points of doctrine in the entire restoration of the
fullness of the gospel in these latter days.
There are so many people who have lost children, myself included, who without the knowledge
of the Atonement of Christ, don't know where those children are.
They just don't.
I've read recently about some of the religious discussions and debates about what happens
to children.
I think we've all had experiences with that.
I remember a missionary companion of mine when I taught at the Missionary Training Center
after I returned home from my mission.
And he would share this.
It seemed like every Tuesday he would share this with the missionaries that when he was
on his mission in Canada, he was tracking and he knocked on this one door.
It was near evening and he heard a voice in his mind.
And the voice said, read Moroni 8, 10 through 12.
And he was, he'd only been out a few months and he started on zip his scripture cover
to find Moroni 8, 10 through 12 because he didn't even know what it said.
And he finds it just as a young woman opens the door and he reads to her Moroni 8, 10
through 12 about the Mormon condemning infant baptism and saying that all children are alive
in Christ and need no repentance.
Well he read those three verses and without even looking up.
And when he looked up, she's got tears flowing down her cheeks and she says, who told you?
And he said, told us what?
How did you know?
She said, know what?
How did you know my baby just died two weeks ago?
Who sent you here?
And he said, the Lord Jesus Christ and she said, I've been praying for two weeks that
God would send somebody to me to tell me where my baby is.
And she had, she told the experience that she was a member of a certain church and she
went to that church and asked the priest, where's my baby?
And he told her that this has been a long time ago, keep this in mind because they've
kind of changed, softened their doctrine on this.
But he told her that her baby was in purgatory and that the baby, because the baby hadn't
been received infant baptism.
Anyway, she said, I knew that couldn't be true.
So I've been praying for two weeks to know where my baby is.
Well they went back when her husband was home on another evening and taught and baptized
them.
President Hinckley shared a very similar story that something just like that that happened
in the state of New York.
And I know that probably happens maybe monthly somewhere in the world with our full-time
missionaries.
How many of them are able to give the sweet knowledge and comfort to individuals who have
lost children?
We believe that all little children who die before the age of accountability, even though
Scott, it's important that we know that all children are fallen.
All children have felt the effects of spiritual death even though they're innocent and they
can't sin before the age of accountability.
They're still fallen.
King Benjamin teaches us that in Mosiah 3.16.
But because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, they are unconditionally saved.
That's great news.
That is great news and if that was the only news that we got, that alone would be enough.
But it's so, so much more than that.
I don't know how a mom who's lost a child in that moment could feel like anything could
be more than that though.
And I think that's the beauty behind all of the things that we're talking about is whatever
we are going through or whatever somebody else is going through, the atonement of Jesus
Christ has already leveled up to meet the demands of whatever that is.
And if that's the loss of the child, we talk about the other things unconditionally and
there's so much more to this.
We know of children and I know of people personally and so do you who have suffered at the hands
of adults just really awful things that wasn't their choice.
And we're going to get more into the redemptive and enabling and the compensatory components
of the atonement and those powers.
But that's part of the unconditional as well.
Well before we leave the covering children, I check this again this morning because it's
so hard for us to understand and believe this.
But in the United States in the 1800s, the infant mortality rate was over 46% children
reaching the age of five years old.
So think about this, Scott.
And this is in the United States.
I imagine in some countries it would be much higher than that.
In the United States in the 1800s, almost half of children that were born would not
reach the age of five.
Now just think about this for a minute.
If thousands of years, the children being born on this earth and approximately half
of them not surviving the age of accountability, think how many of God's children, his sons
and daughters, are in the celestial kingdom.
That is an amazing statement of the mercy and grace of the Atonement of Jesus Christ
and the love of God.
I just think it's wrong for anybody to even believe for a second that most of God's children
are not going to be in the celestial kingdom.
I think it will definitely be the most populated kingdom just based on this point of doctrine
alone.
Right, yeah, yeah.
So I'm just really grateful for that.
My wife and I have, we have no official doctrine in the church when it comes to stillborns.
But my sweetheart and I have had to suffer through that, through having stillborns.
There's been miscarriages.
We have, again, there's not an official statement.
But I think one can know through the Spirit about certain things that maybe, or there's
not an official doctrine in the church.
And we have buried a couple of babies.
And I am so thankful for this point of doctrine and the power, the mercy, the grace of the
Atonement of Jesus Christ that covers children.
We'll use several times in this podcast the word covered.
And just to remind our listeners that the Hebrew word kafar is the Old Testament Hebrew
form of atonement or reconciliation, which means to cover, to cover.
I just think that's such a sweet description of what the Atonement of Jesus Christ does.
It covers us.
It compensates for us.
I think of a blanket, a warm blanket covering us or certain powers of the Atonement that
make up for our inefficiencies or inadequacies.
So let's maybe talk about another unconditional aspect of the Atonement of our Savior that
overcomes spiritual death.
I had an experience many years ago, Scott.
We were invited to participate in the church's program, family home evening program at the
Utah State Penitentiary at the point of the mountain here in Utah.
And we were invited to kind of adopt a prisoner and one, someone who didn't really have a
family and, and we would go every first Monday of the month and we would have family home
evening with this prisoner.
We would share a gospel message.
I remember being a little nervous about this.
I had four small children.
I was in my mid thirties.
We went up to the prison of the first Monday of the month and we were went through four
iron doors and got into the non-denominational chapel and we were introduced to a man by
the name.
Well, I won't share his name.
His name was David and like my name is David, but we were introduced to this man, David,
who had been in prison for 14 years.
And I didn't know anything about him.
And we had a little opening exercise and then we were taken to a room where we went in this
room alone, my family with this inmate and he wanted to know about us and we wanted to
know about him and we just had this amazing experience introducing ourselves and him telling
us a little bit about himself.
And I remember when he started to introduce himself, he said, I suppose you're wondering
why I'm here.
And I stopped him and I said, no, if it's okay, David, we don't need to know why you're
here.
We, we want to focus on your future and the present, not so much the past because I didn't
want my children to be afraid of him or to think of him really as a, as a criminal.
So he, I didn't really know why he was there and at the time didn't really care.
So we just had this unbelievable experience.
He was a bodybuilder and he, he, I don't know if this was against the rules, but he took
off his shirt and started doing, you know, showing us flexing for us.
Probably a minor infraction at best.
I think that probably was probably inappropriate, but I know my daughter's shirt thought it was
awesome.
You know, they were, they were pretty young.
I think they were a 10 and 11 or something like that.
Anyway, it was pretty impressive and it made me a little nervous because he, he told us
he, he bench pressed about 500 pounds and he was only five, nine, five, 10, but he was
just, there was no body fat on him.
Anyway, we had this delightful experience and we came to love him and always looked forward
for two, for, for just over two years we did that, but about six months into it, I guess
six or seven months into it, I had a volunteer card.
So I would try to go up once a month and go to church with him.
He wasn't a member, he happened to be Muslim and he was black and I wanted to kind of convert
him.
So I was encouraging to go to church and would go with him, go up there and go to attend church
with him.
And I went up there one Sunday to go to church with him and the bishop was waiting for me
and said, brother Durfee, David came to see me this week and he's been really depressed.
And he, he needs to talk to you.
He needs, he's afraid that when you find out why he's here, that you'll stop bringing
your family and he, he's really come to love your family.
And I said, well, I'm fine with knowing, I just didn't want my kids to know and the bishop
said, I understand, of course.
So the bishop got David and me together and put us in, I think his office and for over
an hour, David told me his story.
And I was again in my mid 30s and I had, I had just never imagined some of these things
got, I think I was pretty naive.
Anyway, he told us that he was born to a prostitute and his mother was a prostitute and he never
had a dad or had any father figure in his life and she was quite abusive.
And at the age of six, she forced him into child prostitution and I'll never forget the
words, quote, my mother made a lot of money off of me.
And I just was so disheartened listening to his story and the abuse that he went through.
He also told me a story about, he had a big dent in his forehead, right in the middle
of his forehead.
He had this big dent, this impression in his forehead.
And he told me that he was 10 years old and his mother hit him in the head with a tire
iron when he was sound asleep because he had forgotten to take out the garbage that morning.
And he knew that he was, you know, his life was in danger of living there.
He had started to complain about the child prostitution, the acts of child prostitution
and she gave him his first shot of heroin when he was eight years old.
Oh my gosh.
So he was a drug addict.
He was through no choice of his own and ran away from home for his life really out of
survival when he was 12 years old, living on the streets of Kansas City, Missouri.
And at the age of 14, he said he had a gun and I'll never forget these words.
He said to me, I hated my mother, but in some strange way, I loved her and I thought I could
help her.
So I went home.
And it wasn't many days that he was home that she did something that set him off and he
shot his mother.
And he became kind of the property of the state in their juvenile detention system.
And at the age of 18, he had the opportunity to get out of Missouri by joining the Peace
Corps.
And he joined the Peace Corps and he ends up in Utah.
And in Utah at the age of 18, something happened.
I don't know any specifics, but he, somebody did something to him that set him off and
he killed a man, shot and killed a man committed a second murder at the age of 18.
So he was given 10 years to life.
And I met him when he was 32.
So he'd been in for 14 and we, we just developed this really sweet relationship.
But I remember that day.
I'll never forget that day and coming home and thinking, wow, wow, he never had a chance.
Never, never had a chance.
And for months, Scott, I prayed about what is there any, is there any chance for him
here and now or in the afterlife?
And it really caused me, my experience with him was life changing because of what it kind
of forced me to study and learn about the powers and blessings of the Atonement of Jesus
Christ.
And I, I, I don't know how accountable he, he David is or isn't.
I don't know that.
I'm not the judge.
I don't know his mind.
I don't know what really happened there.
But I know God does.
And I do know that in the Book of Mormon, this is so, when I, when I really, I had read this
so probably so many times on my, my mission and, and in teaching seminary, but it never
made any, didn't mean anything to me until after meeting, going to the prison.
And, and developing a close brotherhood and relationship with, with David.
And we read in Mosiah chapter three, King Benjamin's address, he, after describing
Gethsemane and blood coming from every poor in verse seven in verse nine, it says, and
lo he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men, even through
faith on his name.
And even after all this, they shall consider him a man and say that he hath a devil, and
they shall scourge him and shall crucify him.
And he shall rise the third day from the dead and behold, he, Jesus Christ, standeth to
judge the world and behold, all these things are done.
This is so important.
Why are all these things done?
All these things are done that a righteous judgment might come up on the children of
men.
I used to ask my students, Scott, when I would teach this course in Institute, I would always
ask, so what's, what's a righteous judgment?
Use another word to describe a righteous judgment.
And they would say merciful, and I'd say good.
And they would say loving, and I'd say good.
And somebody would always end up saying fair judgment.
The judgment will be fair.
And I would, and I would always go, yes, the judgment will be all of those things.
But it will definitely be a righteous judgment is a fair judgment that a righteous judgment
might come upon the children of men.
Now get this verse.
This is amazing.
For behold, and also his blood atoneth, for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression
of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly
sinned.
How many people in this world have ignorantly sinned, who have not known really the commandments
who haven't really known the laws of God?
There I believe, well we probably have all in our lives ignorantly sinned.
But there's so many people in this world who just don't have the same knowledge and understanding
and standards and therefore not as accountable as we are.
It's amazing to think how many people in this world from the time of Adam and Eve until
now who have ignorantly sinned.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ covers them.
And again, I'm not the judge, but I believe that may cover somebody like my friend David,
who maybe wasn't in his right mind when he did some of those things.
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say.
I think this ignorantly sinned can be more than just, well, I didn't know.
Because David, I'm associated with guys like your David on a pretty constant basis.
They're not incarcerated anymore, but many of them have been.
And this is a pretty prevalent scenario, I think, that runs through the lives of those
folks that have those types of issues going on in their lives.
To know is one thing, but to be conditioned to be able to even carry out the things that
we know.
I mean, I think that we all have the light of Christ, right?
Somebody's thinking that right now, even as we're saying this, somebody's listening
to this podcast saying, we all have a conscience.
Yeah, but we all have the light of Christ.
And so we're all, we all have to have integrity towards that light of Christ that we have,
which is true.
We are not refuting that at all.
What we are saying is this, if a kid is born into a situation where at a age before he's
even accountable.
Before his minds develop.
Before it's even began to be developed in ways that will help him in the future to make
these types of decisions.
And we see this, it's not just David.
There are Davids out there.
There are Davids listening right now to the things that we're talking about.
And here's the message.
We do need to be responsible and we do need to have integrity to that which we do know.
There are things sometimes in a person's past, especially in an impressionable child's past
that can and will affect their decisions in life.
And that can be decisions and that can be emotions that affect decisions and that can
be so many other things.
And so, you know, I think that as we study this and just this part of it, we can see
the mercy and love come through this part, just this one component of the atonement.
The mercy and love from a heavenly Father and His Son comes through to us in such strong
waves that I think that if we are able to hook on to that and make that a part of our
lives, that this healing, this redemption, that all of the things that we start moving
towards and for now are easier for us to accomplish, easier for us to do.
And if nothing else, and if for no other reason, we're just less hard on ourselves, you know.
Yeah, we're going to make mistakes.
We're definitely going to be accountable for that which we know.
But there are those who it will be different a little bit for.
Yeah.
I thank you, Scott.
I don't know who that covers and who it doesn't cover, but I believe to some aspect, some in
some degree or another, it covers all of us that make mistakes or sin because of the false
traditions of our fathers and because of the things that have been impressed upon our minds
and that we sometimes react before we have really the opportunity to really think it
out and to act.
I know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ allows us to act and not to be acted upon.
I know that.
I love how Elder Bednar has emphasized that over the years of his apostolic since he was
called his apostolic ministry.
But the fact is, some have been acted upon and because they've been acted upon, it has
affected how they act.
And maybe they haven't had their moral center completely developed in their mind and maybe
it affected how they were wired or that there are some individuals who before they were
able to act were acted upon and it affects their behavior the rest of their life.
I'm not trying to make anybody an exception or use, I hope nobody takes anything we say
and uses it for an excuse.
Never, no.
But the reality is Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of all the world and that
includes the sins of those who act out ignorantly.
Even Jacob teaches in 2nd Nephi chapter 2 that those who don't have the law are covered
by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
You know, and so many times, so often David for example, you know, I'd like to know his
mother's story.
And so on and her parents' stories and so on and on and on the cycle on and on.
And I think that, you know, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, this not only helps us to
live better lives for ourselves, but through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, David, I think
that we now can with empathy and love in our hearts, turn our decisions to, you know what,
I'm going to make a decision to be understanding towards that person.
I'm going to make a decision to love that person and give them the benefit of the doubt
because I don't know what it was like to be them growing up.
Right.
Even their parents, like we said before.
And so, you know, the Atonement of Jesus Christ not only allows me to feel compensated for
those things in my own life, but it gives me better empathy and love towards those who
might need that extended their way.
I think that's an awesome application.
If we understood the doctrine of how the Atonement covers those who have ignorantly sinned, Scott,
we would be so much more merciful, gracious, forgiving towards individuals who have maybe
hurt us or offended us or done things that they shouldn't have done.
We would be able to maybe let it go and forgive them more quickly if we understood this point
of doctrine.
As a matter of fact, it's important that we do let it go.
You know, we've been commanded and if we're really truly to be Christ-like, we are to
forgive how often 70 times 7, you know, which is just symbolism for you forgive through
perfection, right?
You forgive perfectly.
And so we've been commanded to forgive like that.
And you know, we should be able to extend that even to those who are our family members,
who may have done things and, you know, and I'm trying to be sensitive here because this
is not an indictment on anybody.
But I know that there are a lot of us who, and when I say a lot of us, all of us to some
degree or another have been affected by things from that have happened to us in our past.
Right.
As little kids, as teenagers, whatever, even as adults, whatever the case may be.
Now we are responsible to do what we can do and we've been given tools and through Heavenly
Father's blessings and literally blessings, we can overcome those kinds of things.
It's not my job though to judge somebody else.
Only God and that, only God and that person can really know that and understand their
accountability, but you know, people who have been sexually abused so often become abusers.
And I just think it's so critical that those who have been abused, usually by those who
have been abused, by those who have been abused, that it would just help us all to understand
how the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers not only those acts of abuse, but to some degree,
and again, I don't know, covers those individuals.
You know, I've been a bishop.
I know all other bishops, state presidents, who have to set in judgment representing,
trying as hard as they can to represent the Lord Jesus Christ in the church and have to
help individuals who have been abused or have been affected by abuse or who have acted out
because of their abuse.
The Holy Spirit has touched me over and over again in those cases where someone who has
had a perfect childhood and then acts out out of rebellion is different than an individual
who acts out who because of the sins heaped upon them, they are now ignorantly sinning.
Again, I know it's more complicated than we can understand, but I just think that's
so beautiful that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our Savior, our Redeemer covers all of those
sins that have been committed ignorantly, all those individuals who have sinned ignorantly.
What a blessing.
I mean, you know, that should give hope to all of us because at some level, to some degree,
we are all your inmate friend.
We just have, I mean, there's just parts of all of us that need the depth and level of
the Atonement of Jesus Christ that David did.
Yeah.
Well, here's the rest of that story.
It gets even more personal.
So because we had had a couple of stillborns, we decided that we would adopt.
And because of our relationship with David, we wanted to adopt a black baby.
That's where that desire really started.
And so we started to check into adoption agencies who specialized in adopting black babies.
We reached out to Denver and Houston and Philadelphia.
And Philadelphia contacted us.
They had a baby who had had some challenges.
They had to take the baby out of the home because of a court order, because the baby
had been abused.
And they asked us if we'd be interested.
And we just felt inspired and impressed to do this.
Went to the temple and thought it was the right thing to do.
So we went back to Philadelphia and adopted this baby.
And the next Monday was our Monday to go to the prison.
And we were all, as a family, so excited to take this black baby to the prison and have
the baby meet David.
David knew about us doing this process.
In fact, he was so supportive of it that, and in fact, if he wouldn't have been supportive,
we wouldn't have done it.
That's how close we were to him.
And he was so excited to see us.
He knew we had gone back to Philadelphia.
He knew that we were coming.
And so we show up to the chapel, we get to the chapel of the prison, and we go early.
And I'm surprised because David's sitting in the chapel waiting for us.
And there's only David and our family.
And he looks like a million bucks.
He knew this baby was coming.
And he had slicked back his hair, greased back his hair.
He had, I don't know why he pulled this off, but his blue jeans were starched and hard-creased
like suit pants.
And his, at the time, they wore blue shirts in prison.
Now they wear white, but he had his blue denim shirt on, and that was starched in his top
button button.
And I said, David, you look like a million bucks and 50 cents.
And he was so excited.
And I said, you want to hold the baby?
And he said, yes.
And so I took the baby and gave him to David.
And David, in his big hands, and holds this baby, and he starts to kind of shake.
And I said, David, he likes to kind of be held close.
And David rolled him into his huge, muscley arms.
And I said, no, no, David, you're going to crush him.
Look, let me show you how to hold the baby.
So I took the baby.
Isaac is our baby, and I take Isaac, and I say, you got to hold him like this.
And so he holds him and starts to rock him.
And something happened.
David looks into Isaac's eyes, and Isaac looks into David's eyes.
And David becomes, I mean, it's just like you could see his whole countenance fall.
He became deeply depressed.
It was like immediate.
And he hands me back the baby, and he won't talk to us the rest of the night.
And I'm thinking, oh, man, I can't get him to answer any questions.
He won't talk to us.
He just keeps putting up his hands in the air and shaking his head.
No, don't talk to me.
And it was awful.
What was supposed to turn out to be an amazing experience.
Not for me, but for my children.
I was just so excited for my children to have this experience.
It turned out to be awful.
And I was really upset and went home that night.
The next day I went back to prison because I had a volunteer card, and I went back right
after I got through teaching seminary on Tuesday.
And they let me in to see David, to visit him.
And I went right into his house because I was a volunteer in what he called his house.
And there in the lunch room, we're sitting at a table.
And I said, hey, listen, listen to me, David.
I don't know what happened last night.
But if every time we bring that baby to family home evening, if you're going to act like
that, and it's going to make you depressed, then we're done.
We're not going to come anymore.
I was just so mad at how it had turned out, mostly for my other children.
And I remember him taking his fist and hitting the table.
And he was angry.
And he said, it's a little late for that, don't you think?
For the first time in my life, I held a baby.
That is the first time in my life I have held a baby.
And I have never felt such love.
I have just one question for you, he said.
Why wouldn't God allow me to be born into a family like yours?
Why wouldn't He give me a mother like Isaac now has?
Why didn't I have that opportunity?
Well, I had completely misunderstood.
I had no idea what David had thought, what he had felt that day before.
And my heart was broken.
And Scott, this is one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had in my life, really,
because there in that moment, in the prison, I knew by the power and gift of the Holy
Ghost what God wanted me to say.
In response to David's questions, his question was, why didn't God give me a mother and family
like yours?
And I knew what to say.
I did.
I had been thinking about this.
I had been searching the scriptures.
And I knew that I could say this to him by the power of the Spirit.
And I said, David, I don't know why, but I know this, that someday, if it is your desire
to have a family like that, that you will have a family like that.
And someday, David, you will have the opportunity to have a mother like that.
I knew that was true.
He knew that was true.
He felt the Holy Ghost.
This Muslim murderer felt the Holy Ghost.
I knew it, Scott.
I recognized it.
And he sat there with tears rolling down his cheeks, nodding his head, yes.
We both knew.
And I said to him, and this is possible only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
One day, you'll have a family and a mother like that, and he nodded his head, yes.
Unfortunately, David will never, something happened.
It's another long story.
While we were still seeing him, he got in a fight with somebody in prison who had apparently
raped a Mormon missionary, sister of a missionary or something, and David found out about it.
And David almost killed this other prisoner.
And he's been institutionalized.
The parole board said he'll never get out of prison.
He's in there for the rest of his life.
It's been many years since I've seen him, but I still love him.
And I still know that someday David will have a family and a mother made possible only through
the atonement of Jesus Christ.
And then, Scott, this son that we care, this baby that we carried in there, this son who
we love, Isaac, that we carried into prison at the age of 26, went back to prison, this
time as an inmate himself.
And my sweet son, my eternal son, sealed to us as if he were born in the covenant.
Something like that's the wording they use in the temple when they seal babies that are
adopted.
And then at 26, he goes back to prison.
He goes to prison.
Now, as an inmate.
And what people, I think, don't understand, and I'm not trying to make excuses.
I'm not making any excuses for him or anyone else in any of this discussion.
But my son was born as a fetal alcohol baby.
His mind has never been fully developed.
He still acts and sees himself as an adolescent.
He struggles with bipolar.
He has a form of autism, Asperger's, and was abused as an infant, which psychiatrists
and experts have written a lot about how that can imprint even on an infant for the
rest of their life, things that they act out on that they don't even know why.
So I have a son who I am so thankful in some way is covered, even though he grew up in
the church and he loves the church and he loves the prophets and he loves the Lord.
But for whatever reason, making no excuses, he does things that are really sad and really
hurtful, and I am so sorry for all of the wrong that he has done and all of the victims
he has left in his wake.
I'm just, I'm so sad by that.
But I know that because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that someday it will all work
out and that maybe even he is covered and that life, life and the judgment are fair
because of the power of Christ Atonement.
It's really easy for us to build a case around David in prison, your adopted inmate in prison.
We didn't have a very good starting life, not probably, we didn't have a very good starting
life, neither did Isaac.
We didn't have a shot.
Many of us do though, many of us do have what would seemingly be a really good shot in
life and we still at some times can have slips, we can make mistakes, we can go contrary to
our integrity, we can make decisions that we promised we would never make and we make
them anyway.
And sometimes some of us, even though we had a great start, there will be times when I've
been asked this, Scott, why'd you do that?
And the question is valid, the answer seems weak, but it's true and I've heard it a million
times from other people too.
I don't know, I really don't know.
You know, I know, but the answer is not sufficient or adequate.
But I can't say, you know, because I do know this because I'm a fallen man, because I've
separated the spiritual death because I've, you know, and I'm going through all this stuff.
I know that, but what about those?
And I'm saying this mostly rhetorically, this is something for us to consider because I
think that the answer is clear, but I want to bring it out.
I want to really emphasize how important this is.
Most of us who are listening to this podcast cannot identify, I'm not David in prison.
Most of us can't identify.
Some can and, you know, to those our hearts go out and our prayers are deep and our hope
is eternal.
But some of us haven't had those types of things and we still make mortal decisions.
We still make natural man mistakes.
But we look back and we say, yeah, but I didn't go through all that.
So I am more accountable, which we probably are more accountable, but we are less.
We are, let me rephrase that.
We are no less affected by the Atonement of Jesus Christ than those that did.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Now this doctrine in regards to the powers of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I think
is it changes our behaviors as we learn and understand the breadth and the depth of the
mercy and grace of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And it's it is taught so clearly in the Book of Mormon, in the scriptures and and by the
prophets.
I think one of my, I think it is my favorite statement in all of preach my gospel is on
page 52 and it says, quote, all that is unfair about life can be made right through the Atonement
of Jesus Christ.
Well I I love that and I I know it's true, Scott.
I a few years ago, I had the opportunity to go to prison to visit my son and Elder Anderson
wanted to go with me.
He had made arrangements for both of us to go early on a Sunday morning to visit Isaac.
He wanted to meet Isaac and he had arranged with the bishop to address the other inmates.
This was right before COVID and we went up there on an early Sunday morning and went
into a room after Isaac and Elder Anderson had had an opportunity to meet and talk and
so sweet by the way and to watch that as a father and then to go into a room with about
a 80 other inmates in white jumpsuits or white pants and shirts and and I just kind of stood
back and I watched this apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ minister literally minister to
these inmates.
I I could feel his love for them and I know they felt it too.
There was one man there who you know was all tattooed up and looked hard and most of the
inmates stood for Elder Anderson when he shook their hands but a few of them didn't and this
man didn't and then elder any in fact he was leaning forward sitting down leaning forward
looking at the floor when Elder Anderson came over to him and started to pat him on the back.
Elder Anderson patting him on the back and said hi my name is Neil can I meet you and
this man looks up at him and Elder Anderson puts out his hand and this man reached forth
his hand and I think he felt a little of the love of God in that moment and it was a sweet
interchange and then Elder Anderson spoke to the inmates we were there for about two hours
and he would he he shared his witness and testimony and he asked them if they had questions
and I'll never forget one inmate saying in some frustration and and really heart wrenching
in a heart wrenching voice said Elder Anderson some of us have lost everything we've lost
our wives our children our family our opportunities our membership in the church our everything
that's dear to us some of us have lost everything and I remember Elder Anderson after listening
to this man cry out Elder Anderson said with great compassion and great feeling he answered
I want to testify to you that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ you have lost nothing
that cannot be restored to you now I sat there amazed by what he was saying and I knew that
of course there's some things that can't be restored because of sin right time there's
sometimes time and sometimes opportunities and but maybe maybe some of that can be restored
too in the next life other opportunities can come their way maybe they'll maybe they'll
get married again and have that marriage sealed and have children and I sat there thinking
Scott about this and I thought wow and I and I knew that this inmate and all the other
inmates were feeling this wow to get this vision of beyond this life of all that could
be restored to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ either through the compensatory
blessings the enabling blessings or the redemptive blessings based on our desires based on our
accountability based on our faith based on our repentance that really Scott the scripture
that went through my mind was Isaiah that there will be beauty out of ashes that out
of something that's really bad and really ugly that the atonement of Jesus Christ can
make really beautiful so I as we end this podcast just bear my testimony to you Scott
into all of our listeners of the mercy and grace and power that is available to us in
our lives because of the redeeming atonement of Jesus Christ as we round out this podcast
and we'll move again into the next podcast will continue down the same vein of the effects
of the atonement of Jesus Christ I just hope that all of us because there is application
for every single one of us listening to this podcast regardless of where we are in our
lives if we're going to the temple daily weekly and I'm not saying that's what we should
be doing but if that is what you're doing that's one thing and if you're still just
trying to figure out a faith crisis maybe maybe our testimonies aren't as strong whatever
the case may be I just hope that all of us can see ourselves in something that we've
talked about today because we are there and if we are there so is he and if he is there
then there's hope and there's redemption through all of the garbage that we go through in
our lives I testify that that's true I've lived that and I'm still living that today
the good part of that today I'm still living that redemptive compensatory and enabling powers
of the atonement of Jesus Christ in my own life because of the principles that we are
sharing here and that's our mission here is to just instill hope in you to just give you
that same hope that same love that same vision that he loves us that he cares deeply for
us that he is aware of ourselves more deeply aware even than we are of what we need and
how we can obtain absolute joy and happiness in this world for that is his intent for us
we're glad that you're with us today remember the email he redeems us at gmail.com we love
your comments we love to get any input or questions that you may have that we may address
here on the podcast as well thanks for being with us as always God bless you know that
he loves you and this week as you're sitting in sacrament meeting the for those of you
who do and particularly the sacrament remember remember that as we renew covenants there
we invite the gift of the Holy Ghost we invite his constant companionship which is the promise
that we receive there and as we do so that is exactly how we put on the covering or the
tolement of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we look forward to you to being with you next
week until then have a great week everybody.