1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,120 Okay everybody as I was thinking about you all week, a quote from President Thomas S. 2 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,600 Monson caught my attention and it's been on my mind all week long. 3 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:23,600 Here it is. 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,400 Heavenly Father loves you, each of you. 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,880 That love never changes. 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,720 It is not influenced by your appearance or by your possessions. 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 It's not changed by your talents and abilities. 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,280 It is simply there. 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,640 It is there for you when you are sad or happy, discouraged or hopeful. 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,240 God's love is there for you whether or not you feel you deserve love. 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,720 It is simply always there. 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,880 Hello everybody and welcome to Redeemed Through His Blood, a podcast where we discuss hope, 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,280 healing and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,680 I'm Scott Durfee and it's my great pleasure to introduce to you my partner on this project 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,960 and our great teacher, Brother David Durfee. 16 00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:05,960 Thank you Scott. 17 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:11,640 That's such a great quote to start our episode out today. 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:12,640 Thank you. 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,880 I have always loved that quote. 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:22,120 In other words, according to President Monson and all the prophets, the love of God can 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,680 never be earned. 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,320 Our value and worth is always there. 23 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:31,440 He always loves us. 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,320 His love is eternal. 25 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:38,840 His love is infinite. 26 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,720 We don't always feel it and it breaks my heart when I have members of the church who have 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:50,320 told me that they have never felt the love of God in their life. 28 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,720 I can't understand that. 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:59,760 We've talked about that a little bit before, but I know that God does love all of His children 30 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:09,920 infinitely, eternally, and that if we would try to live according to His laws and commandments 31 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:18,520 and that we would focus on having a relationship with Him, that that love would just flow into 32 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,520 our lives and it's what makes really all the difference. 33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,360 Yeah, it absolutely is. 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:24,360 And you know what? 35 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,400 I've experienced that in so of you and I know that many of our listeners have as well and 36 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,080 there are many that have maybe forgotten that experience. 37 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:37,520 And hopefully, you know, this is an opportunity to re-invite that experience again in your 38 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:38,520 lives. 39 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,520 Hey, we want to just say thanks to everybody for your emails, your correspondence and communication. 40 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,680 They have just been wonderful, encouraging us. 41 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,080 You've had some great questions and comments and even some suggestions. 42 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,320 We welcome those, invite those really. 43 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,600 We're learning as we go here too and trying to make this the best experience possible 44 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,280 and we just don't know what you're thinking unless we hear from you. 45 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,920 So we're grateful for that. 46 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaking of, we don't know what you're thinking unless we hear from you. 47 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:12,440 I have an email that was sent, Dave, just recently and this is an email I think that 48 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:19,280 there's not a question here, but there's a real feeling of inspiration, I believe, as 49 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:20,280 I read this. 50 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,800 I don't know if I read the whole thing, but maybe just a few pieces of it. 51 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:29,160 So this is sent to us from a sister who says, I have a privilege of being a Relief Society 52 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:34,080 presidency in a county jail somewhere here in the United States. 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:39,680 She says, we work with sister inmates who are struggling to know who they are and they 54 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,080 are searching for peace and for hope. 55 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,680 Sometimes we struggle to understand what they are going through and how to help them. 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,480 On Tuesday, it was this person's turn to teach and she says, I was teaching from Elder 57 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,160 Uke Dorf's 2007 talk, The Point of Safe Return. 58 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,160 Great talk. 59 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,640 And I would recommend listening to that to all of our listeners. 60 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,920 Elder Uke Dorf has, as do they all, the 12 and the first presidency have such an insight 61 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,840 to this stuff that is so amazing. 62 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,680 I just listened to your podcast and that was podcast number four. 63 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,520 Of course, I'm back to the letter. 64 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:16,680 I used it in my lesson. 65 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,600 I even played parts to the sisters and they were so touched by the message you shared 66 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,400 and how they were able to understand the way they were thinking. 67 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:33,240 So shout out to those sisters incarcerated in whatever facility that is. 68 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,760 Our love goes to you. 69 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:40,160 We know that you're experiencing glimpses of our Heavenly Father's love for you and 70 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,600 hopefully that becomes indelibly inscripted upon your hearts. 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,080 As you go through what you go through, God bless you and our prayers are with you for 72 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:57,440 a complete and successful rehabilitation spiritually, physically in all other ways. 73 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,600 So last week, Dave, we had a great discussion around the, another great discussion around 74 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,920 the fall where we talked about so much. 75 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,040 We talked about the events of the fall. 76 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,640 We talked about the effects of both the spiritual and the physical death and we even brought 77 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,600 in maybe where there's some combination of both of those probably in all things. 78 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,560 There's some combination of the effects of the spiritual and the physical death. 79 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:27,120 We know that from that it becomes necessary for us to have the Atonement of Jesus Christ 80 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,760 and the effects of that in our lives so that the complete plan of happiness, the complete 81 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:38,480 plan of redemption that was set forth before the foundation of this world can be accomplished. 82 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:45,240 So as we begin that, we're really excited to start moving into those types of things 83 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,200 today, Dave, as we move into kind of, I think we're going to start talking about the events 84 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,960 of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, right, Dave? 85 00:05:52,960 --> 00:06:00,840 And before we do, as I listened back to our episode last time about the unconditional 86 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:08,400 redemption from death that Jesus brought about through His Atonement, I don't know if I 87 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:17,680 gave enough evidence from the Scriptures in regards to the unconditional aspects of Christ's 88 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,320 Atonement in overcoming the spiritual death. 89 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,840 We all have no problem believing, I think in the church at least, we're one of the few 90 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:33,600 churches that believe in a universal resurrection and I don't think as members of the church 91 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,320 we have any challenge with that, we all believe that, that's well documented, but we haven't 92 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:46,120 talked enough in the church, in my opinion, about how Jesus unconditionally overcomes 93 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,760 spiritual death, being cut off or separated from the presence of God. 94 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:59,800 And I just feel like, Scott, to reinforce this, that I wanted to read another Scripture 95 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:00,800 from Jacob. 96 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:07,080 I used only one Scripture last week as evidence of how Christ overcomes spiritual death, and 97 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,240 that was in Helaman chapter 14. 98 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:16,200 There are several in the Book of Mormon, but I read this one again recently, and I wanted 99 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,880 to just share it with our listeners again. 100 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:25,080 This is again evidence from the Book of Mormon, how Christ unconditionally overcame spiritual 101 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,200 death. 102 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:33,280 This is Jacob in 2 Nephi chapter 9, his amazing discourse on the Atonement of Christ, and 103 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:40,040 he writes, this is verse 15, it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed 104 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:47,800 from this first death or resurrection unto life, in so much as they have become immortal, 105 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:56,520 they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, meaning we will 106 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:02,520 go back to the presence of God to be judged, and that unconditionally overcomes spiritual 107 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,800 death because we'll be in the presence of God. 108 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:13,320 And then later in the same chapter, chapter 9, 2 Nephi verse 38, he says, after describing 109 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:20,160 the wicked, woe, the kind of the nine woes, woe this, woe that, woe unto the liar, woe 110 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:26,720 unto the murderer, woe unto those that worship idols, woe unto those who die in their sins, 111 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:34,560 for they shall return to God and behold his face and remain in their sins. 112 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:40,720 Even the wicked, the most wicked, murders, I said that last time, but I wanted to reemphasize, 113 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,960 the most wicked will return to the presence of God and behold his face. 114 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,600 That's verse 38. 115 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,800 And then in verse 41, it says, I still remember President Eyring quoting this verse years 116 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,040 ago on conference, and it's been one of my favorite since. 117 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:07,840 Verse 41, 2 Nephi 9, all that my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One, remember 118 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,920 that his paths are righteous, behold the way for man is narrow, but at lieth in a straight 119 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:22,280 course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel, and he employeth 120 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,600 no servant there. 121 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,600 I just really love that, Scott, that there will be a judgment, it'll be face to face, 122 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:37,720 will return to the presence of God, and there will be no servant there to carry out that 123 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,400 judgment. 124 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:46,280 And I believe again that if we would ponder that more, if we would think about that more 125 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:52,240 in our daily decisions and choices, it would influence our behavior. 126 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:58,360 So I just want to again as a review, say how grateful I am and how grateful we should all 127 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:10,960 be understanding that Christ's atonement unconditionally overcame both physical death and spiritual 128 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,640 death. 129 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,720 And today we'll talk more about the events of the atonement. 130 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,880 And I'm so glad you brought that up. 131 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:25,640 To recap those things really gives us some impetus in towards moving into what we're 132 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,400 going to be talking about today. 133 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,800 Those things are so vitally important to what you just talked about is so vitally important 134 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:38,600 to the trajectory that this conversation takes, because if we didn't have that knowledge, 135 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,480 if we didn't understand that all of us will return to our Heavenly Father, there will 136 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,840 be some differences based on that. 137 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,520 Our attitudes change or should, right? 138 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,640 If we are truly aligned and so much of what we talked about here as we remember is about 139 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,520 aligning ourselves through broken heart and contract spirit, aligning ourselves with the 140 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,160 will and care of our Heavenly Father as we completely understand Him. 141 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,560 But understanding Him really requires that knowledge of that too. 142 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:13,440 Understanding that His love for us is so great that He will bring us into His presence regardless 143 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,080 of our experience here, regardless even of our own participation in our experience or 144 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,600 level of participation in our experience here, regardless of that. 145 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,960 He's not going to have somebody else at the gate say, go check, make sure, screen that 146 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,000 guy, you know, make sure he's, no. 147 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,640 It goes back to the quote that I just read from President Monson. 148 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:40,840 He loves us and that is the ultimate consummate display of that love is to allow us or to 149 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,600 bring us back into His presence. 150 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,240 Now what happens from there? 151 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,240 That's also going to be an extension of His love. 152 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:48,240 There's no question. 153 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:55,360 Well, I think, I think hell, the greatest definition I've heard of hell is to return 154 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,800 to the presence of God and remain in your sins. 155 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:06,000 I know that to go back there, to see His face, President Benson again, telling us how shocked 156 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:13,000 will be by how familiar his face is to us, going back to Him, seeing Him, feeling His 157 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:22,560 love, Scott, seeing the look of compassion and maybe to some degree, grief that may be 158 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:26,920 on his face if we die in our sins and remain in our sins. 159 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:33,400 I think for an individual to have to leave his presence, understanding that love that 160 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,040 he has for each of us, that would be hell. 161 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,040 Yeah. 162 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,040 Yeah, there's no question. 163 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,040 It would be hell for me. 164 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,040 I do know that. 165 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,920 Well, so as we talked about that and we've established all of that through our discussion 166 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,880 last week, this week we begin to move into some really important, and I say that every 167 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:54,880 week. 168 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,840 I'll probably say it every week in the future too because it's nonetheless true. 169 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,800 Everything we talk about here is so extremely important. 170 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:07,280 But today we're going to be moving into the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the events of the 171 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:08,280 Atonement of Jesus Christ. 172 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,920 We'll start touching on the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in subsequent episodes. 173 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:14,920 There's no question. 174 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,000 And I really look forward to that as well. 175 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:24,760 As we though dive into these events of the Atonement, I think they have so much of Christendom, 176 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:32,400 Christianity, I believe that there's so many of us within Christianity that have an understanding 177 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:38,040 that may be semi-limited around the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 178 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,960 We know about Gethsemane, we know about Golgotha, and we know about the Garden Tomb and how 179 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:49,040 all of those play into the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 180 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:55,040 But it really is, we were talking earlier, you and I, and a great discussion. 181 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,880 I believe and you believe and you've taught me that really the Atonement of Jesus Christ, 182 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:05,080 the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ are really more outreaching than that. 183 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,080 Wouldn't you say so too? 184 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:12,200 Well, we know that Atonement comes through blood, that it had to be a bloody Atonement. 185 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,720 We know that. 186 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:20,560 And Gethsemane and Golgotha and the Cross are kind of the harder center of it. 187 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:26,480 But I agree, Scott, I think that we would be better served and that it would be more powerful 188 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:35,160 and effective in our life if we saw Jesus Christ's life as part of his Atonement or 189 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,440 Atonement and reconciliating us with God. 190 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:51,160 For example, his birth, his terrible, sad, poor, wretched events of his birth through 191 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:58,040 his childhood, which must have been so difficult, the threat on his life because Herod killing 192 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,320 the babies. 193 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,600 I think Jesus is a, we think Jesus is probably one or two years old when that happened because 194 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,000 Herod is killing everyone who is under three years of age. 195 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,800 So Jesus might have been one or two. 196 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,400 I think Jesus would have maybe felt some of the stress of Mary and Joseph in getting him 197 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:24,480 out of the city of Jerusalem alive and going to Egypt and suffering the events, the travel 198 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:30,960 and the events that may have occurred in Egypt, not knowing how long they were there. 199 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:37,840 Sometime before his 12th year, coming back to the ancestral home of Mary and Joseph, 200 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:44,840 probably skirting around Jerusalem, I don't know, but going back to Nazareth and then 201 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:52,960 maybe being a new kid in a new school or church or whatever, you know, I don't know again 202 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,280 how hard that may have been for him, but I know it wasn't easy. 203 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:06,280 And we just don't have enough record of his life to really, I think, fully understand 204 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:13,840 and appreciate the suffering that he went through throughout his life as an infant, 205 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:23,880 as a child, as a teenager, as a young adult, the family problems they must have had. 206 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:29,600 Most people accept the fact that Joseph died long before Jesus began his ministry at the 207 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,200 age of 30. 208 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:37,120 We know that Jesus was kind of a stepchild and that some of his brothers and sisters 209 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,800 may have struggled with Jesus. 210 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,160 I think there would have been challenges in his family life. 211 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:50,840 I believe there were challenges throughout his life that doesn't necessarily bring about 212 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:57,920 the reconciliation or redemption that we're going to talk more about when we talk about 213 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,480 Gethsemane and Golgotha, death and resurrection. 214 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:12,120 But Scott, it definitely, all that he experienced, all that he suffered, helped him to know us, 215 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:18,800 for a God to come down to this earth in a fallen state, to have flesh and blood and 216 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:27,120 because of Mary to fill all the pains and sicknesses and torment and anguish of mortality. 217 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:32,280 I think Jesus felt it to a greater degree than most of us will ever feel it. 218 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:40,320 And as a result, it helps him to know us and to succour us and to have this gift of divine 219 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,080 empathy, which Alma talks about. 220 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,920 And maybe we should read that verse, Scott, if you'd like to. 221 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:52,320 Yeah, Alma, Alma chapter seven versus, versus 11 through 13. 222 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,520 And I've got it right here. 223 00:17:54,520 --> 00:18:00,000 And maybe read that and then maybe let's comment about it. 224 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,000 Seven through 13. 225 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:09,360 Seven through 13 describing the overall effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which I 226 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,960 think begins from his birth until his death. 227 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,740 And so this is Alma seven versus 11 through 13. 228 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:22,280 And he shall go forth suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind. 229 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,280 Let me just pause. 230 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,280 Of what kind? 231 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:25,880 Of every kind. 232 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,680 That leaves nothing out, brothers and sisters, ladies and gentlemen, nothing out. 233 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:37,080 And this was in going back to the Scripture and this was that the word might be fulfilled, 234 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,600 which sayeth, he will takeeth upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 235 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 I'm just going to push pause right there for just a second. 236 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,800 And I want you to consider the pains and the sicknesses. 237 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,600 Again, this goes back to as part of the spiritual and physical death. 238 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:59,400 So I want you to consider what pains and sicknesses of his people, meaning you, do you want him 239 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,240 to be able to take upon him? 240 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,440 So he went forth and suffered those pains and sicknesses of the people. 241 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Now verse 12, and he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which 242 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:18,160 bind his people, and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be 243 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:25,160 filled with mercy according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how 244 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:30,680 to succor his people according to their infirmities. 245 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,400 Now the Spirit knoweth all things. 246 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,600 Nevertheless, the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh, that he might take upon him 247 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:44,240 the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the 248 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:50,840 power of his deliverance, and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. 249 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:56,720 That passage of Scripture is, that alone, Scott, is probably worth the life and death 250 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,000 of the Prophet Joseph Smith. 251 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,360 We understand some things about the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 252 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:09,360 In fact, every aspect of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that other Christians do not 253 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:17,080 fully understand or appreciate because of the revelations and restoration of the Gospel 254 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,720 in these latter days. 255 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:32,440 I had an experience where the, I won't use his name, but a doctor of theology, we invited 256 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:39,680 him to come to the Institute here at Utah Valley University to speak to our faculty 257 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:45,080 and to share some thoughts and feelings about Jesus with our students. 258 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:53,640 He was, he's a friend of the church, friendly, and we, in our faculty meeting, we were talking 259 00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:00,840 about a little bit about what we have in common and what are some of our differences. 260 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:10,160 And I made the comment to him that it seems to me that the heart of the difference that 261 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:24,320 we have is that we believe in an infinite Atonement and that you believe in an Atonement that is 262 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:30,320 limited, that's their word, limited, that's according to Calvinism. 263 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,600 They believe that the Atonement is limited, that it's only for believers. 264 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:42,280 Well when you read this passage in Alma 7, that he took upon him all the sins and all 265 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:52,240 the sicknesses of everyone and that all of that that he suffered for all of God's children. 266 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:59,080 In fact, Scott, he had a Book of Mormon and he actually read this passage to our students 267 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,800 in an devotional. 268 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,960 He said, this is one of my favorite passages from your Book of Mormon. 269 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:10,000 And this was so sad, but he said, I wish I could believe that. 270 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,720 And he says, I hope someday that I can. 271 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:20,000 I hope someday that all of God's children can believe in this verse. 272 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:26,080 He says, for now, I just have to put it on the top of a shelf and leave it there. 273 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,720 And I was kind of heartbroken by that statement. 274 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:39,320 How blessed are we that we have the fullness of the Gospel and that we understand more 275 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,960 about the Atonement of Jesus Christ than anyone else. 276 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,720 And that doesn't make us better than anybody else, Scott. 277 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,520 No, in fact, it makes us more responsible. 278 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:56,720 That gives us much more responsibility to be able to access it, apply it, and it gives 279 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,160 us more responsible ability to share it. 280 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,160 Yeah. 281 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,160 To share it with others. 282 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,960 And we share it in so many ways, right? 283 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,920 We can share it by being evangelical about it and there's nothing wrong with that. 284 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,000 Absolutely we can share it that way. 285 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,560 But one of the best ways we can share it is through our own love, empathy and forgiveness 286 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,560 towards others. 287 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,560 Yeah, absolutely. 288 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:20,440 Because, you know, as we begin to learn this and contemplate and consider Christ's life 289 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,400 as being an important part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, not through the redemption, 290 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:32,280 not through the justification, but by way of suckering us, which was obviously one of 291 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:37,480 his great, great roles that he still plays today. 292 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:43,760 But to understand that and to know that because we have that love and that ability to have 293 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,840 that suckering, it gives us responsibility. 294 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,960 But it also gives us more hope. 295 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,200 I think it should, you know, we of all people should be people of hope. 296 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,320 And we do realize that, you know, we're going to get tripped up. 297 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:57,440 Life's going to get in our way. 298 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,520 We're going to have struggles. 299 00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,960 We're going to have hard times. 300 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:06,400 And it doesn't matter if we're a member of what church or what race we're from or what 301 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,760 have you, we are all subject to the effects of the fallen world. 302 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:19,000 But to know that his life throughout his life was a teaching and an opportunity for him 303 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,800 to learn to sucker us. 304 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,240 So that means he must have felt pretty much everything. 305 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,040 And I don't think, you know, all along day before, I thought maybe he felt that during 306 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,000 the 40 day fast and in preparation prior to his ministry. 307 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,680 I thought maybe that's where he felt all that. 308 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,520 But as I've been considering this over the last several, couple of years, I believe that 309 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,880 really, you know, when you said, when he was exiled into Egypt or not exiled, but when 310 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,600 his family moved to Egypt for protection and he and all of the trials that you talked about 311 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:55,600 just a few minutes ago, refugees, all of this plays into his being able to sucker us through 312 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:56,800 his experience. 313 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,360 And because of who he is and because of who we are and because of whose we are, we should 314 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,760 be able to benefit and have blessing in our lives because of his life. 315 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:11,600 He not only suffered all the negatives of the fall and not only suffered for all of 316 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:18,440 us, all the negatives of the fall, but I think if we had a more complete record of his life, 317 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:26,160 Scott, we would see that he experienced those things personally in a personal sort of way, 318 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:33,360 which allows him to even have greater divine empathy for us. 319 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:41,160 So as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we should, because of 320 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,920 what we believe about the Atonement of Jesus Christ and that him taking upon himself all 321 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,720 the pains, all of the sins and sicknesses. 322 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,080 This isn't the only place it's taught in the scriptures, Scott. 323 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,800 It's also taught by Jacob in that discourse I referred to earlier in 2nd Nephi chapter 324 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,480 9. 325 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:08,640 We should, when we see pain and we see suffering, we should not only run to someone's aid and 326 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,600 try to succor them, but we should think of Jesus Christ. 327 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:20,000 When we watch the news and we watch the suffering that we see every night, every day on the 328 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,960 news throughout the world and in our communities, where should our minds go? 329 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,400 We should look to Christ. 330 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,080 That's the injunction he has given us. 331 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:40,240 Look unto me, he said, in every thought, behold the wounds in my side and the prints of the 332 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,120 nails in my hands and feet. 333 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:50,600 When we see suffering, we should automatically think of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and 334 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,000 know that Jesus suffered it. 335 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:00,000 I think it not only helps us to develop a closer relationship with Jesus Christ, but 336 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,840 it should help us to grow, to draw closer in our relationships with our fellow men, 337 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:12,400 or even our own family members who suffer, knowing that Jesus suffered it and that we 338 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,800 can help them to understand that and that as they understand that, they will feel some 339 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:27,120 healing, some hope, some relief, some peace and spirit knowing that a God suffered what 340 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:33,880 they suffered, not only suffered it, but suffered for them in his suffering. 341 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:40,320 So that's part of, I think we're talking a little bit today, not only about the events, 342 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,480 but the effects as we talk about this. 343 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,680 So let's begin to talk about the events of the Atonement. 344 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:54,480 And again, I think we should consider the Atonement as being fulfilled as part of Jesus 345 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:02,080 Christ's entire life, not just the Passion Week or the last few events of his life, 346 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,080 specifically Gethsemane and Golgotha, but all of his life and all of the suffering and 347 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,280 all the pains and sicknesses that he would have experienced. 348 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:19,040 Part of the Atonement required, Scott, a sinless life. 349 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:28,040 And I don't think we have any idea how difficult that would have been, the sacrifice that must 350 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:37,040 have been required, and the suffering that Jesus experienced in the temptations that 351 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,960 were thrust upon him by Satan and his legions. 352 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560 And we experience much of that here too. 353 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,800 And so, you know, we get back as we go to the beginning of his life up until that point, 354 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,560 and all of those things that he suffered, and even as part of that ministry that began 355 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,920 there, you know, all of that as we go through our lives, and we've all said this, and I 356 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,200 don't know if really we all have, but many of us have said this. 357 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,400 It's just, I just don't understand how he could understand how I feel. 358 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,640 You know, there's a separation. 359 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:17,680 There's just a separation that comes in our minds between humanness and divinity. 360 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:23,440 We believe that, which is true, that divinity is pure, that it's sanctified, that it's 361 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,440 holy. 362 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,000 We see ourselves in our own lost and fallen states. 363 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,440 And so that in our minds creates a division that often can be misinterpreted. 364 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,760 I've misinterpreted it. 365 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,360 For much of my life, I believed that when I did wrong, we talked about this in our very 366 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,320 second episode, that when I did wrong, God was mad at me. 367 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:49,440 You know, that when I was, when I had bad things, or when I behaved out of the way I 368 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,600 should be behaving, even though it may have been because of the result of something in 369 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,120 my past or something along those lines, I believed and I believe a lot of us believe. 370 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,360 And I know some of you out there are believing this right now, and we need to stop it, that 371 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,880 when we do that, that our Heavenly Father can't love us because we can't come back to 372 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:13,360 Him, because we've eliminated the opportunity to be in His presence, to have His Spirit 373 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,360 with us. 374 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,280 And so at some point, many of us think, why do we even try and throw our hands in the 375 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,280 air and give up? 376 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,240 But when we understand that He went through, and in our minds, if we can start considering 377 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,880 some of the possibilities of His own life, what He went through in Egypt, what He went 378 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,560 through as a teenager, you know, and all those things that you mentioned, those things start 379 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:43,920 bringing to real life an empathetic God that I can feel like really does love me when I 380 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:44,920 feel those things. 381 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,000 I mean, and we talked about last week, in the week prior, that that's facilitated through 382 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,240 the Comforter, through the administration of the Atonement, through the Comforter or the 383 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,480 administrator of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is the Holy Ghost. 384 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,600 And I'm grateful to know that He did that. 385 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,800 I'm grateful to know that because of that, Heavenly Father and Jesus really love me enough 386 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,400 to welcome me back, and they've given me this way to do that. 387 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,680 Not just to get back there, though, but to have peace and joy in this life, right? 388 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,680 Yeah. 389 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:25,800 So, as we think about Jesus' life, I think it's really easy for many people to think, 390 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:33,720 well, He was a God, that He was the Son of God, that His life was somehow protected, 391 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,240 or that He had these extra powers or whatever. 392 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,800 And as we speak about all the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we should remember 393 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:55,960 that His Godhood was never, never called upon to eliminate any pain or suffering. 394 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:03,800 In fact, just the opposite, His Godhood allowed Him to feel more pain and suffering, to endure 395 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:11,120 greater temptation throughout His life than any of us can ever experience or understand. 396 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:20,080 His Godhood made His life worse and yet protected Him throughout His life from ever succumbing 397 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:26,960 to temptation, even though He suffered it, or succumbing to death, until He willingly 398 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:34,120 volunteered, gave up the ghost, and willingly died. 399 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:41,920 I think that we sometimes don't understand that Jesus really felt all the temptations 400 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,920 that we feel. 401 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,080 The scriptures are clear. 402 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:54,040 He never yielded, that's quote, yielded, or doctrine comes, section 20, never gave heed 403 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,000 unto them. 404 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:05,400 But I love what Hebrews says, the author of Hebrews, who I believe was Paul, wrote, Jesus, 405 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:12,560 the Son of God, touched with the feeling of our infirmatives, was in all points tempted 406 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:20,400 like we are, in all points, tempted like we are, yet without sin. 407 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,320 That's Hebrews 4, 14 through 15. 408 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,880 So I don't know what tempts you, Scott, I think we all have the same temptations, all 409 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,840 mortal men, women have the same temptations. 410 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:38,160 But that means Jesus would have been tempted by lust, He would have been tempted by pride 411 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:48,840 and selfishness, greed, laziness, procrastination, worry, and fear, jealousy, and envy. 412 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:55,800 He would have been tempted by every possible sin, even though He didn't sin, that Satan 413 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,360 could throw at Him, and He never yielded. 414 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:09,280 But what strikes me, Scott, is that for a holy, guiltless, pure individual like Jesus 415 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:15,000 to fill those experiences, to the depth that we probably do not feel them. 416 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,920 And I think that's an important point out. 417 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:17,920 Yeah. 418 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,240 I'm going to revisit that. 419 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:26,920 He not only felt all the temptations we feel, and then some, but to a greater depth than 420 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,400 we can feel them. 421 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:36,320 How painful must that have been for Him to fill those and to not yield? 422 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,880 I think that maybe a quote from C.S. Lewis. 423 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,560 Yeah, before you do that, can I just give a real quick experience? 424 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:50,120 This is the other day I was having a conversation with somebody as a member of a recovery program. 425 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,560 For those of you who maybe haven't been with us, I'm a recovering alcoholic. 426 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,880 I have 23 years of sobriety. 427 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,360 It'll be 24 on October 26, and I'm actively involved in recovery programs. 428 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,560 We talk so much about in recovery, and I don't want you to forget your quote, so don't. 429 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,400 But we talk so much in recovery about there's three really important steps, and it seems 430 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,920 like I visit these every week, I'm going to do it again today. 431 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,760 Number one, we admitted we were powerless over whatever in our lives, and in this case, 432 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:18,760 it's alcohol. 433 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,000 Okay, but whatever we're powerless over in our own lives, and that our lives have become 434 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,560 unmanageable, I think that's an easy admission for most of us. 435 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,960 Number two, that power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 436 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,480 That power that can restore us to sanity is what we're talking about right now. 437 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,160 That's our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, through His atonement, through His blood, 438 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,760 through His redemption, through all the things that we're talking about. 439 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,320 That's how that is facilitated. 440 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,280 And then finally, number three, we actually decide, and that's where the broken heart 441 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,920 and contrite spirit comes in. 442 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,800 That's when we actually decide to turn our will and our life over to the care of God 443 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,800 as we understand Him. 444 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:57,640 Now, having said that, we talk about how important it is that Jesus went through all of this 445 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,600 experience so that He could experience what we went through to succour us. 446 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:07,840 I'm explaining this to a young man in his 30s recently, just the other day, literally 447 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,040 just a few days ago. 448 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,840 I'm explaining this to him, he felt what you felt. 449 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,560 He says, he couldn't have felt it the way I felt it because he was God. 450 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:22,920 And I think that there's a misconception there that because he was, you know, his description 451 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,960 to me was, you're telling me that Jesus had cravings for alcohol or understood these cravings 452 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,200 for alcohol like I understand. 453 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,520 And I can't respond to him. 454 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:40,040 I know exactly everything that Jesus experienced in detail and individually, but, and I'm just 455 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,520 going to call him Joe, but Joe, he suffered it all. 456 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,200 He does know, and he does know to the depth. 457 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:53,520 Now I can say that and we can talk about that, you know, academically, but to have a real 458 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:59,080 life experience with that is such a gift, such a blessing. 459 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,080 And I've had that. 460 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,080 I've had that gift. 461 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,880 I've had that because I struggled that without myself, David. 462 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,760 You know, I was told, Heavenly Father and Jesus, they understand it, Scott, what you're 463 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,120 going through, they understand. 464 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,400 And I don't know if this was a time when I was going through my divorce or if this was 465 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:20,880 a time when I was looking at maybe some legal issues or maybe a time when I was, had been 466 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:26,520 excommunicated from the church and was working my way back to activity or back into the church. 467 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,920 I don't know when any of this took place, but I do remember having this conversation 468 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,920 and having somebody, my dad, who's been a great teacher to me all my life, say, Scott, 469 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,360 this atonement works for you. 470 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,280 And in my head, I'm thinking the same thing that, you know, I called him Joe said to me 471 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,080 just a few days ago, I'm feeling the same way. 472 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,920 So I can't reconcile this stuff on paper. 473 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,840 I can't reconcile it in a book. 474 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,660 And I can't even reconcile it listening to a podcast. 475 00:37:54,660 --> 00:37:58,440 How I have to reconcile this is I have to ask. 476 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,160 I have to kneel down or however I approach my Heavenly Father and say, Heavenly Father, 477 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,880 is this true? 478 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,960 Is did this really happen? 479 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,920 And I promise you in the name of Jesus Christ that by the power of the Holy Spirit, He will 480 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:20,360 make known to you the truthfulness of this concept because it is true. 481 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,600 He did suffer. 482 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,400 He does know not just to the depth that you went through, not just to the depth that I 483 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,120 went through, but I think Dave's going to explain to us here in just a second why, but 484 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,080 even a greater depth perhaps than what we could ever know. 485 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,840 Well, I appreciate your invitation to call out to God and to ask and to pray. 486 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,280 And that's how they can know. 487 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:47,960 But there's also another way to know, Scott, and that is to really study these things. 488 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:54,080 And I hope that our readers will take time when they're not driving in their cars and 489 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,440 they're not busy by all the things that we have to do in our lives to actually find some 490 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,600 quiet time to go read Matthew 26. 491 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,640 Go read Mark 14. 492 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:15,960 Read Luke 22 and read John and read what the gospel authors and writers have said about 493 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,960 these events. 494 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,400 There's a power about that. 495 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,600 There's authority. 496 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,640 There's a witness of the Spirit. 497 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:31,360 And reading and the power of the word that can have as much influence and maybe in some 498 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:39,240 ways more influence on their life before they call out to God. 499 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:43,920 I mean, I mean reading it would and then calling out to God would even be more powerful. 500 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,440 I totally agree. 501 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,240 As we're reading this, he will begin to through the Holy Spirit, through the Holy Ghost, the 502 00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:53,840 Mount Ferdinand, the teacher of all things will bring all things to our members. 503 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:54,840 This included. 504 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:01,680 He will begin to lay foundationally brick upon brick, if you will, an understanding that 505 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,680 will speak to our spirits. 506 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,600 And as that's happening, please, please pay attention to the way that you're feeling 507 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,240 and maybe even record those feelings so that you can go back to them during times of discouragement 508 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,720 to maybe help with some encouragement again in our lives. 509 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:15,720 Okay. 510 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:21,920 Second Nephi chapter two, second Nephi chapter nine, King Benjamin's amazing discourse on 511 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:30,880 the atonement in Mosiah chapter three and four and a benediced witness in Alma chapter 512 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,600 34 on the infinite atonement. 513 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:42,240 Alma's discourse to Zezerim in Alma chapter 12. 514 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:49,520 I mean, they're just, that's where they will fill the spirit and get a vision of these 515 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,760 events of the atonement of Jesus Christ. 516 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:59,280 But back to the sinless life of Jesus, as you were telling us about Joe Scott, my thought 517 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,280 went to again the life of Jesus. 518 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:10,440 And I know Jesus never experienced sin like Joe did in his mortal life. 519 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,800 And he never experienced addiction like Joe in his mortal life. 520 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,600 However, we're going to talk more about this probably in part two of the events of the 521 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:32,600 atonement that in Gethsemane and again on the cross, all of the sins, all of the addictions, 522 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:42,400 all of the effects and feelings and negatives of all sins were heaped upon him. 523 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:49,720 So even though Jesus never sinned, Jesus knew sin. 524 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:51,240 He felt it. 525 00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:57,720 Even though he never had an addiction, he knew what it was like to fill the pains of 526 00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:58,840 addiction. 527 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:05,040 And those events occurred in Gethsemane and on the cross. 528 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:11,040 In speaking of his sinless life, though, I want to again emphasize, Scott, the suffering 529 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:19,520 that that would have caused Jesus the power of saints temptations, which would have begun 530 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:20,840 in his youth. 531 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:27,000 Again, we know nothing except a verse or two about from age 12 to 30. 532 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:33,520 We have like one verse and he grew in stature and wisdom before God and man. 533 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,200 That's about all we know from ages 12 to 30. 534 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,680 I'm thankful for that one little verse that Luke shares with us in Luke chapter two. 535 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:50,000 But we know nothing about the pains and suffering of his temptations throughout his life until 536 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,720 he begins his ministry at 30 when he goes into the wilderness to be with God, according 537 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,000 to the Joseph Smith translation. 538 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,680 And he fasts and he prays and he has this experience with God. 539 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:10,760 And then God allows Satan to be thrust upon him, to attack him, to tempt him with these 540 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:22,480 amazing personal, personal temptations of lust and of greed and of power and the major 541 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,880 temptations that Satan throws at all of us. 542 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,200 Anyway, it begins there and then throughout his ministry, I know that he's tempted. 543 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,800 I twice in the scriptures, Benedict teaches it. 544 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:40,320 And again, it's taught in Hebrews and I'll read the Hebrews chapter two, verse 18, it 545 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:49,000 reads, for in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to sucker them that 546 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,520 are tempted. 547 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,560 So Jesus suffered temptations. 548 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,000 Not only did he suffer them the way we suffer them, but he suffered them to a greater extent 549 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,760 than we can suffer them because he was a God. 550 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,480 And I want to read this quote by C.S. Lewis. 551 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:17,600 No man knows how bad he is till he has been, till he has tried very hard to be good. 552 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:23,040 A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. 553 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,480 This is an obvious lie. 554 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,400 Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. 555 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,120 After all, you find out the strength of an army by fighting against it, not by giving 556 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,120 in. 557 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:41,960 You find out the strength of a wind by trying to walk against it, not by lying down. 558 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:47,960 A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would 559 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,600 have been like an hour later. 560 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:56,000 That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. 561 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,240 They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. 562 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:06,520 We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside all of us until we try to fight 563 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:07,840 it. 564 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:14,600 And Christ, because he was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only 565 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:21,720 man who knows to the full extent of what temptation means. 566 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:28,000 Jesus Christ, C.S. Lewis writes, is the only complete realist. 567 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,320 That's from mere Christianity. 568 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,560 And I've always loved that quote. 569 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:40,200 And it helps me to appreciate this aspect of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that a sinless 570 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,080 life was required. 571 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,840 And that, Scott, may have been one of the most difficult aspects of the Atonement that 572 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:57,080 Jesus fulfilled, and that it wasn't easy, and that he did suffer, suffer temptation. 573 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:02,400 And that's a part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ that I think we don't talk enough about 574 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,400 or appreciate enough. 575 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,440 And I think that's the part that really endears those of us who suffer, which is all of us, 576 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,520 from the effects of the fall, the physical and the spiritual and death. 577 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:19,640 I think that that part of it has an endearing component to it, to those of us who feel semi-detached 578 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,960 or somewhat detached for parts of our lives because of sin, either of ourselves or because 579 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:31,800 of others or misunderstanding or many, many other things, to know that because of his sinless 580 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:37,320 life, he not just understands our sufferings the way we've suffered them because none of 581 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,200 us have suffered them completely. 582 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,200 Whatever level we have suffered, there's a next level. 583 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,280 I don't care who we are and I don't care what it is. 584 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,600 And I know that's a bold statement, but I'm making it nonetheless. 585 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,160 Whatever we have suffered, there's more suffering. 586 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,160 There was, if you suffered a one million, you can suffer a one million and one. 587 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,320 I mean, it's just possible. 588 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,120 And if that's the case, none of us have suffered that completeness. 589 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:07,840 It seems to me, and I think C.S. Lewis makes this point, an observation, it's not his point 590 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,480 to make, it's an observation for him to make, though. 591 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:16,480 The point, though, is, and it has been made by prophets, that he suffered in ways we can't 592 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:17,480 even begin to. 593 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,080 I mean, we think that we suffered with, you can call it whatever. 594 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,400 Say you suffer with an addiction. 595 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,600 Say you suffer because of sexual abuse from your childhood. 596 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,200 Say you suffer from any of that. 597 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,680 And as dark and as horrible as that seems, because of his sinless life, he actually understands 598 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,480 that suffering even to a deeper level than we do. 599 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:44,720 And he may have suffered all of those physical things like abuse and all of that. 600 00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:53,280 I mean, Jesus was abused by all of those who persecuted and taunted and he felt all of that. 601 00:47:53,280 --> 00:48:00,800 But you're right, as far as his understanding would have been so much greater because of 602 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,280 the extent to which he was tempted and to the extent that he suffered. 603 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:14,480 I think there's some other applications knowing about his sinless life and the cost, the 604 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:21,000 price, the sacrifice he made in not yielding to temptation, filling the full extent of 605 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,000 it. 606 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:30,480 I think one application is knowing that the full force of all temptation which we are 607 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:36,920 subject to throughout our life, and then some was felt by Jesus and that he fought that 608 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,760 fight too. 609 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:46,400 I think also this is such an important point, Scott. 610 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:55,880 God, Jesus Christ in this case, Jehovah, the Son of God was tempted. 611 00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:04,120 Scott, it's wrong of us, and I had so many students who I had to correct on this, who 612 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,760 would come into my office and say, I must be so bad. 613 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,480 We kind of talked about this before when we talked about the fall. 614 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:17,280 I must be so bad because I was tempted in the temple or I was tempted here. 615 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,840 Yeah, we think sometimes that living a righteous life means we don't have sin or temptation. 616 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,360 Yeah, right. 617 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:30,000 That's one of the greatest myths not only in the Gospel but in life. 618 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,760 Jesus was tempted. 619 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:39,280 He felt lost and pride and all of that because of the temptations that he experienced and 620 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,360 never yielded to it. 621 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,760 So this is important. 622 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:54,000 No temptation we experience should be mistaken for our worth, our value, or our identity. 623 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:03,600 In fact, Scott, maybe the closer we get to God, perhaps the greater temptation. 624 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,440 I think that's an important application in this. 625 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,960 Well, and I think that there's a lot of us that have pictures to go with those words. 626 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,760 And so it's been my experience, and I think it's probably been the experience of a lot 627 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,200 of people that it seems as though, and we've heard this, I've seen as though the closer 628 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:23,240 I get, closer I get to doing what's right, the harder sometimes it becomes to do so. 629 00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:27,760 Or it feels as though the gates of hell sometimes are unleashed against us. 630 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,120 I mean, we've all had an experience, many of us have had an experience where it's darkest 631 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,000 before the dawn, right? 632 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:41,560 And so it seems as though that knowing that he suffered and understands all things that 633 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,240 we go through and that as we get closer to sometimes doing the things that are right, 634 00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:50,040 that sometimes those things become harder for us to go through, Dave. 635 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,360 Well, we have a scriptural example of that, Scott. 636 00:50:54,360 --> 00:51:00,360 Not only think of Jesus as experience, being with God, fasting for 40 days, and then right 637 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,120 after that, he's attacked by Satan. 638 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,240 Think of Moses. 639 00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:09,720 Moses sees God in Moses chapter one, Prolegate Price. 640 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:14,560 He sees God, has an experience, knows he's the Son of God, knows he's created after the 641 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:20,280 Smilitude of the only begotten Son, and then he's attacked by Satan. 642 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,560 Think of Joseph Smith. 643 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:28,280 The order is a little bit different, but here's Joseph Smith is first attacked by Satan. 644 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:34,440 Overcome, can't speak, powers of darkness he describes. 645 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,520 And then he sees God. 646 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:44,880 So honestly, I remember a few of these experiences in my office teaching Institute of individuals 647 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:53,640 telling me about their struggles, including some of their temptations and saying to them, 648 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,160 well, you must be getting really close. 649 00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,120 You must be on the right path. 650 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,640 You must really be doing the right thing. 651 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:09,880 And how that would kind of change their perspective to see that being tempted or experiencing 652 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:20,320 the temptations of evil in your life may actually be a really positive sign that we're headed 653 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:25,480 in the right direction and Satan is doing everything that he can. 654 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,600 Sometimes all he has to do is distract us. 655 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:35,840 But in some cases, Scott, in all of our lives, he not only distracts us, he attacks us. 656 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:42,400 And those, those I've experienced that in my life, I've experienced direct attack of 657 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:50,160 Satan in tempting me in ways that I that I haven't always been great at handling, that 658 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,600 I haven't always called upon the power of God or the Atonement of Jesus Christ to deliver 659 00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:01,280 me like Moses did or Joseph Smith did or others. 660 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:10,960 So I know that that Satan is real, that temptation is real, and that Jesus experiencing that 661 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:16,800 in in ways and to a degree that we will never experience it. 662 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:22,480 And yet never succumbing to it, never being thrown off course by it. 663 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:30,640 That was a really critical, important part of what we call the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 664 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:41,720 And maybe in future episodes, we can begin to talk about the physical, emotional, mental, 665 00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:53,920 anguish and blood that Jesus shed, suffered and shed for us as being a continuation of 666 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,280 our discussion about the events of the Atonement. 667 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:57,280 And I look forward to that. 668 00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,280 I do too. 669 00:53:58,280 --> 00:53:59,680 What a great day. 670 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,760 We've run out of time, and we're getting really close to being out of time. 671 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,640 And I just want to say thanks, Dave, for the opportunity again to be with you and to be 672 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,840 with our listeners as we expand on such an important topic. 673 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:16,520 I look forward as we begin next week, I think, to start talking about the effects of the 674 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:23,760 Atonement as we bring in the blood component of it to the extremely insightful and important 675 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,280 things that we're going to be talking about there. 676 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,760 Ladies and gentlemen, as always, it's been our pleasure to be with you today. 677 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:36,080 Remember to send us your comments, your questions to heredeemsusatgmail.com. 678 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,200 It's been a great day. 679 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,600 We again just want to once again thank you for your participation. 680 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:44,600 Thank you for being with us. 681 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:50,320 And as you go through your week this week, we invite you to invite Heavenly Father, 682 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,880 Spirit to be with you, to testify to you the truthfulness of the things that we've been 683 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:58,200 talking about today as they truly are true and important. 684 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:03,160 And they make a difference, not just in eternity, which is important, but they also make a difference 685 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,320 to us in our lives today. 686 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:11,400 Please don't forget to send us your emails with questions and comments, maybe some suggestions 687 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,400 to heredeemsusatgmail.com. 688 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,320 That is, heredeemsusatgmail.com. 689 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:22,880 Special thank you to Cherie Curtis for our social media. 690 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:28,320 We want to thank Ann Matthews for our music and a special thanks to Mr. Joseph Brickie 691 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,920 for the use of his artwork in our podcast logo. 692 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:32,920 My name's Scott Durfee. 693 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,800 Along with Dave Durfee here, it's been our pleasure to be with you. 694 00:55:35,800 --> 00:56:03,800 We look forward to seeing you next week.