So hey Deb, this week's a little bit different
for us, you know We're right smack in the middle
of holy week and what we're about to share today
is actually where this whole thing started Friends
the episode that you're about to hear was our
very first episode of redeemed through his blood
And I've been thinking a lot about that this
week because you know when we first recorded
that We made a very intentional decision to begin
right in the most important week in human history
And here we are again, you know, and I and I
think for me it changed me You know back then
when we first started this we originally said
that this podcast was about hope healing and
redemption all of that literally hope healing
and redemption literally all of that comes because
of this week because of the events of this week
you know this week's were really where everything
just changed not historically I mean, it changed
historically, too. But more important than that,
personally, because what happened this week isn't
just something we study. This is something that,
you know, we're invited to actually live inside
of the miracles, the blessings, the events, the
hope that Holy Week brings us. We are invited
to live inside of that. And when we talked in
our first episode, we talked about how the atonement
doesn't just cover sin. It covers everything
that isn't like our Heavenly Father. And I think
we understand that differently today than we
did then. So, Deb, when you think about Holy
Week now compared to even just a few years ago,
what feels different to you? Well, just to remind
you, that was in April of twenty twenty two when
that very first launched. And we have had a lot
happen between then and now. And for me personally,
it has drastically changed how I look at the
Atonement of Jesus Christ. Holy Week, we had
a sacred opportunity to go to Israel and walk
on the Holy Lands and touch, feel, smell, taste,
and even listening to that episode just recently
has been such a gift. As I look back, how every
year and every moment. And I love how you said,
Dave and I intentionally planned this to focus
on hope, healing and redemption. And I think,
you know, for me, now the intention is make Holy
Week more holy and sanctify it into who I am.
You know, we had such a sacred opportunity for
Palm Sunday to walk with our children in a Palm
Sunday walk. And just that's something we haven't
done before, but every year we just add something
new that will bring Christ more fully and more
holy into this week. You know, and I think it
feels more personal now. I feel like it's more
intentional. It has changed my relationship with
my Savior. It has absolutely changed everything
with my relationship with Heavenly Father and
Jesus Christ. So I think for me personally, it
has softened and made me more excited for this
season. I love spring. I love, love, love it
when there is dead ground and everything looks
completely dead and there is a bright yellow
or bright purple flower, crocus, daffodil, whatever
it is, hyacinths that come out of the ground
and pop that bright color. There's such a renewal
and such a gratitude in my heart for that resurrection.
You know, it really is so intentional and my
eyes are very open to that. I think it's so important
for me personally to see Jesus, to see the Savior,
to see Heavenly Father in every aspect of my
life, you know, not just this Holy Week. One
of the things that, you know, as I relisten to
that episode, back in 2022, one thing that David
said is everything comes down to relationships.
And one of the things that you said is, what
would you do with this Jesus? I think if I could
say what changed for me the most is Holy Week
isn't about what Jesus did. It's about what I
do with him. And, you know, that question that
Pilate asked, what would you have me do with
this Jesus? That's not just a question. That's
not just his question. That's our question. What
would I do with this Jesus? So what we're going
to do today is go back to the beginning and give
you this same gift. Maybe you'll hear something
in it now. It hits you differently than it would
have then. I mean, you know, this is four years
later and as we study and grow and as things
have changed, because this week, this isn't just
history. This is absolutely everything. This
is what it's based on. Yeah. Enjoy the podcast.
You know, Jesus lived 33 years, give or take.
We know more about what he said and what he did
on Tuesday, today, of the last week of his life.
More is recorded in the gospels about what he
said and did today than any other day of his
life. Second would be Thursday. the day of atonement
in Gethsemane when he's in the Last Supper and
John records several chapters of what takes place
in the Upper Room. But we have six, almost, almost
six chapters recorded in Matthew alone about
what Jesus said and did on Tuesday. You know,
so let's back up for just a moment and and review
that on Saturday or Friday of last week Jesus
makes his final last trip into Jerusalem He goes
to Bethany, which is just a few miles southeast
of Jerusalem up over the hill of the Mount of
Olives And he goes to Bethany which is a beautiful
little town. I've been there and he stays at
the home of Martha and Mary and Lazarus. Same
Lazarus that he called forth out of the tomb
after being dead for four days, probably just
a few months before this final week. And actually
Lazarus becomes one of the greatest signs or
evidences of the divinity of Christ. And the
Jews, of course, knowing that he was dead for
four days and that Jesus restores his life, he
becomes a... kind of the evidence of Jesus's
divinity, which the Jews want to destroy, and
there's a conspiracy on Lazarus's life. And that's
where Jesus goes and stays, is at his home with
Mary and Martha, his sisters. And he'll go back
and forth to Jerusalem every day. this final
week except Wednesday and we believe that on
Wednesday he just stayed in Bethany the whole
day and rested and got his kind of strength and
energy up for what was going to the awful events
that were going to take place on Thursday and
Friday. What a what a great time to be alive
today, right? When we have all of this information,
we have all of these insights, we have an opportunity
now through the restoration of the gospel to
have the spirit testifying to us the truthfulness
of the things that we're talking about, Dave.
And you know, there's a... I was listening to
another podcast just yesterday about these very
things, and somebody was talking about how Bethany,
being just shortly away from the walls of Jerusalem,
was really kind of a place where people went
that didn't fit necessarily in Jerusalem, and
there was a distance. In fact, that's where,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but were there lepers
would go there and other people to heal because
they weren't necessarily, there had to be that
space between Bethany and the walls of Jerusalem.
of Jerusalem to protect the cleansing of the
Jews. Is there some accuracy in that? Well, I
think one reason they say that, Scott, is because
in one of the gospels it says that he stayed
at the home, or he went to the home of Simon
the leper in Bethany. Right. And we don't know
if that's Martha and Marian Lazarus' dad, or
we don't know if that's another home, a neighbor,
or we don't know anything about that. but apparently
it's a leper that Jesus has healed. Whether that
took place in Bethany or some other place, I
don't know. So I don't know about so much about
Bethany, but I think that's why maybe some people
say that. It's interesting to me, Dave, how he
surrounded himself by those that he was close
to. Martha and Mary, people that he was close
to. Obviously Lazarus was a very close friend
of his. And in reflection, when those of us...
who are going before and we know we're going
to face tough times and we have those come up
in our lives. We have our own holy weeks, our
own preparations as we prepare to bear the crosses
that we get to bear in our lives. To go where
he went, to be ministered to the way he was ministered
to and will be even later more just speaks to
the importance of not just our eternal relationships
but our eternal relationships as they are even
existing here in this existence too, Dave. Well,
we'll probably say this several times, Scott,
in this podcast, but the gospel of Jesus Christ,
everything, everything, if you take all the doctrine,
all the principles, all the practices, all the
commandments, everything in the gospel, policies
and procedures, everything, it comes down to
one point, which is relationships. It comes down
to sacred relationships with deity, with family.
even coming to know ourselves and where we stand
with God and with deity. And so I think that's
a great point that you're making. Now, yesterday,
Jesus went into Jerusalem and we know he went
to the temple and he cleansed the temple again.
We have two recordings of him doing that. The
first Passover when he began his full -time ministry,
he went to Jerusalem and he cleansed the temple.
And now for the second time, he goes there. And
I actually believe it's possible that he went
there three times and cleansed the temple maybe
three times. Every time he goes to the temple
during Passover, he... Cleanses the temple and
we don't know if he went there his second year
of his ministry or not There's no nothing recorded
about that And so he cleanses the temple yesterday.
I think that speaks so much about his reverence
and respect for the father's house and for who
the father was and for for how he saw the temple
the house of the Lord and I think that's just
a really important event that that takes place
yesterday. And he, on the way to Jerusalem, he
sees this fig tree. And this fig tree doesn't
have any blossoms or fruit. It's spring of the
year, so a fig tree probably should have blossoms
and maybe most of the other fruit trees did.
And this one didn't. And it's just a beautiful
tree with leaves. It's become a shade tree and
is no longer a fruit tree. and Jesus curses it.
We know of so many examples, multitudes, in some
verses says he healed multitudes. It says that
in multiple places in the gospels. And this is
the only thing, the only thing, Scott, that we
know of that he killed was a fig tree. To make
a critical point, when they go back to Jerusalem
on Tuesday morning, He's with his disciples,
they travel with him, and they notice that the
fig tree is dead. And they're amazed by that
and point that out in the gospels. And I think
it's such a, you know, elder Talmage in Jesus
to Christ makes the point that this is one of
his greatest object lessons for teaching hypocrisy.
We are not meant to be fruit trees. We are meant
to bear fruit That was his point right and he
is going to offer us the ultimate Fruit it by
the way of his atonement in just a few days after
that event Yeah, so a lot of great things happening
And we're just starting now to scratch the surface
of this holy week. And we're gonna invite you
as listeners, as you're going through this with
us, maybe take your notepad out, maybe start
making a few notes of impressions you might be
having about how does this apply to me and how
can my life be better enriched by applying some
of the principles that maybe the Spirit's moving
us to act upon. One of the things that we're
gonna be talking about through... throughout
the process of this podcast as we go week to
week is how our lives can become better through
a relationship with the divine, through the Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ. But we know, and we're
commanded actually, we're commanded, we're told
in scripture that this is life eternal, that
they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus
Christ whom thou hast sent. And it's so important
that we know Jesus Christ. Knowing him gives
us the opportunity to really understand his love
for us, to really understand the direction that
he took when he came to fulfill his promise in
response, not as a reaction to, but in planning
for the fall. And so, you know, as that happened
and as we start to realize and recognize and
learn some of these, not just fun things, but
some of these really important things about the
Savior Jesus Christ in his last week of his life,
how important it would be maybe that we understand
and we decide how to make that applicable in
our own lives. Yeah, good Scott. And so on Tuesday,
the day that's where there's more written word.
about what Jesus said and did than any other
day. We have him again going to the temple, and
boy, I think if there's two things Jesus hates,
and it seems pretty clear as last week that they
become evident, is he hates people mocking his
father, or he hates irreverence of sacred things.
That's evidenced by his cleansing of the temple.
And the second thing is, He hates, and I don't
think I'm using that word too strong, he hates
self -righteousness. And this day when he goes
to the temple on Tuesday, he really lets the
Pharisees and the Sadducees have it. He's held
back somewhat, and now he's calling them out.
and he's calling them white as sepulchers and
He just really lets them have it. He tells them
that a widow who pays a might he observes this
widow paying a might at the temple and tells
him that she's more righteous than all of them
combined and So he he just really lets the Pharisees
and the Sadducees have it. He gives some pretty
hard parables, which of course goes right over
the top of their head because they don't understand
them and he He has saved these parables, I think,
for some time, to give this day the parable of
the two sons, the parable of the wicked husbandman,
the parable of the wedding of the king's son,
the 10 virgins, the parable of the talents, and
the parable of the sheep and goats. Teaching
Tuesday. This, that's a good. Teaching Tuesday
is probably a good way to say it. And he finishes
the day, Scott, so sacred and we're so blessed
because we have the restored gospel that we know
more about this than anyone else in the world,
is that he goes up on the Mount of Olives with
just his disciples and he talks about his second
coming. and he gives all the signs of his second
coming. This is the Matthew 24 and Joseph Smith,
of course, in the Joseph Smith translation. And
in the Pearl of Great Price, we have Joseph Smith,
Matthew, in which... we have additional information,
and then Doctrine and Covenants section 45, Joseph
Smith has this vision of Jesus Christ on the
Mount of Olives on Tuesday teaching his disciples,
and we have even additional signs and times of
what Jesus gave his disciples. So we have three
sources of what happened on the Mount of Olives
Tuesday night, which was Matthew 24, Joseph Smith,
Matthew, and Doctrine and Covenants section 45.
And these really deserve our attention to know
what we need to do in order to prepare for the
second coming of Jesus Christ. So I think Matthew
24 and the other sources that we have are really
deserve our attention. And they take place on
Tuesday evening on the Mount of Olives. He weeps
on the Mount of Olives for Jerusalem and... The
next day is Wednesday and we don't know anything
that happened Wednesday and that sets us up for
atonement Thursday. Which is undoubtedly unarguably.
the most important, kind of the culmination,
and it's not just that date, not just that event,
but as that starts to take place on Thursday,
and we see now the real apex of everything that
Jesus Christ was sent to earth to perform, for
and in behalf of all of us, what a great opportunity
it is now for us to embrace that and to... through
our obedience and through our love of the Savior
to express that to other people that we come
in contact with. Everybody around us is our brother
and sister. And, you know, Jesus Christ has made
this an opportunity, made this possible for us
to be able to share this, to share this great
news with each other. And I'm just grateful that
we're having that opportunity to do it, Dave.
Yeah, so on Thursday, Scott, Now let's remember
that their calendar, Jewish calendar, is a little
bit different than ours. I've been talking about
the days based on our rendering of time, which
is a Gregorian calendar or a Roman calendar,
which is determined by the sun. The Jews calendar
was determined by the moon. And a new day began
at sunset. So when the sun set, that would be
the beginning of a new day. So for Jesus and
the Jews at this time, their day was up until
the evening. And so it's Thursday up until the
evening, and so it really begins their Friday
at sunset. And at that point, really, the disciples
with Jesus have gathered together in the Upper
Room in Jerusalem, and Jesus begins to teach
them. And some of his greatest teachings are
recorded in the Gospel of John, chapters... 13,
14, 15, 16, these are just some of his greatest
teachings on, you know, a new commandment I give
unto you, love one another as I have loved you,
heat. talks about the discourse on the comforter.
He talks about the true vine. I think that's
one of my favorite passages in these chapters
is John 15, one through five. I am the vine,
he says. Ye are the branches. Without me ye can
do nothing. And then he teaches them to, of course,
love one another, and he identifies his betrayer.
Before all of this, Scott this has always been
so touching to me about the character of Jesus
is that he knows of course who his betrayer is
going to be Judas one of the twelve and Judas
is in the room and Before Judas leaves and he's
identified by Jesus He washes his feet When Jesus
washes the feet of his disciples in the upper
room Judas is there Jesus washes Judas's feet.
I just think that is just unbelievably tender
about how Judas is loved by Jesus Christ. I don't
think Jesus in any way had any ulterior motive
in doing that. It wasn't to make him feel worse
about it what he was going to do. It was actually
maybe I mean, Jesus knew how all this was gonna
play out, and Jesus wanted him to know that he
loved him. So all of those events happen, and
then about 9 p .m., they sing a hymn. They end
with singing a hymn, which was typical. That
was kind of the Jewish tradition, partaking of
the Passover. And he goes to Gethsemane. I think
this is a place where he has identified Gethsemane
literally means the press, the oil press. I've
been there, I've seen the vat which they would
make crush olives in, the stones and the olives
with this huge stone that would roll around in
this big rock. barrel shape and they would crush
olive pits and this is a place where Jesus's
heart is crushed and Jesus were like the oil
out of olives would ooze out of out of these
this hole in this stone vat ooze would Blood
would ooze out of Jesus's pores and that that
takes place that event which we can talk more
about in a minute Between 9 p .m. And and midnight.
He's there for three hours You know, let's go
back just real quick to the experience with Judas,
you know, to wash the feet of Judas Iscariot
when he knows full well what's coming. And, you
know, and Judas had kind of tipped his hand.
Judas had had some issues, maybe, maybe with
money. There's been some speculation around that.
Oh, no, he did. Because he held the purse, you
know, and there was all that too. And Jesus is
fully aware of all that, you know. And so I think
When have I been Judas? I think, and we're gonna
learn later that Peter also denied the Christ.
And so each one of these situations, I think
it's so easy for us in Christendom to just jump
right into harsh judgment towards Judas. And
I don't think that that's necessarily wrong for
us to think, oh my gosh, Judas, what were you
thinking? But at the same time, to have the kind
of love displayed from... Jesus Christ from his
Lord and Savior, my Lord and Savior, even though...
even though he knew what was coming, even though
he knew what had already come. I think that just
deepens my love of the Savior because he was
able to see past and to love Judas in spite of
all of that. I know he has the ability to do
that. I haven't betrayed him like that, right?
I mean, there have been times in our lives, all
of our lives, when we go contrary, when we live
our lives contrary to the teachings of... of
Jesus Christ, that's the natural man in all of
us. That's why this event was so important to
take place, not just as a backup plan, just in
case Scott's not good enough, just in case Dave's
not good enough, just in case Judas Iscariot
or whatever betrays me, all of that, to know
that he knew that anyway and displayed that kind
of love to Judas gives me all kinds of comfort
that he can love me still too. I don't want to
talk too much about Judas. We need to focus on
Jesus, but You know Judas doesn't have the Holy
Ghost Scott. Yeah, they they don't have the gift
of the Holy Ghost yet won't come and tell Pentecost
and I think it's pretty clear that we believe
that Judas was definitely not a son of perdition.
We don't know where Judas will be. We can't judge
him. We should try to, you know, what he did
was wrong. It was evil. Certainly he gave in
to temptation and greed or whatever. I mean,
30 pieces of silver was... you know price of
a slave in the Old Testament and for him to Basically
sell Jesus out that way But we it's hard to know
what he was thinking. It's hard to know and we
don't want to be harsh But apparently he felt
so bad about it after the events of Friday and
the crucifixion took place That it's recorded
that Judas went out and killed himself Just south
in a field in not far from Gethsemane so Maybe
there's still hope for for Judas who knows Jesus
between 9 p .m. On our Thursday on their Friday
night He he Goes and he falls down and it's so
interesting that that Matthew records He fell
on his face Luke says that he knelt And we have
great pictures of Harry Anderson and others who
show him kneeling at a rock, right? And I love
those pictures, but there's a few paintings that
I think depict it more accurately, showing Jesus
falling on his face. I mean, he is flat out.
He is laid out when he's praying. Luke says he's
kneeling too, so I think it's both. I think he
does kneel, but. but eventually he is laid out
when he's feeling the pain, feeling all of the
suffering for the pains and sicknesses of his
people. And he bleeds from every pore. There
is a medical condition where that's been observed,
not from every pore, but where someone is experiencing
such great pain and anxiety. that there's a little
pink, maybe blood mingled with some sweat. We
believe, Scott, we're the only Christian church
in the world that really knows that Jesus bled
from every pore. Most churches don't even believe
there was any blood in his sweat. That's a medical
term called hematidrosis. Hema blood and and
the dross is sweat. It's bloody sweat is what
that term means It's been observed a couple times
in medical history But no one else believes he
bled from every pore That was first taught by
book King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon Mosiah
3 7 and then Jesus himself in a revelation Through
the Prophet Joseph Smith the NC 19 reaffirms
that He bled from every pore. So we're really
blessed to have the restoration to give us a
glimpse, which is totally incomprehensible, how
much he really suffered there. I think that bleeding
from every pore really gives it a exclamation
point at the end of the sentence that Jesus died
for us, right? I mean, I don't know that, and
you say that it's been observed a couple of times
in medical history, not the full body, you know,
giving off this phenomenon, but. to have that
at all and to have that full body, I mean, that
just really, to me, goes into the depth of, he
didn't just give his life for us, man. He really
suffered. He really, it wasn't just go in and
die. It was a go in and I gotta pay for Scott's
sins right here, and I gotta pay for Dave's sins,
and I gotta pay for, and not just my sins, but
all of the things in my life that have been messed
up. All of the things that may have happened
to me, things that I may have, perpetuated on
others. Injustices. All of that. Inequalities.
Yes. Every negative, Scott, every negative that
we suffer that we didn't choose is covered by
the atonement of Jesus Christ. Now you think
about that. All of the pains and sicknesses and
abuses. That we suffer because of the fall of
Adam and Eve in a fallen wicked world That happened
to all of us probably daily All of that is covered
unconditionally by the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Yeah, and I think as we get into this redemption
concept in coming weeks, we probably won't take
time to spend with it much today, but in coming
weeks, we're really going to be focusing, I think,
Dave, on how that applies to all of us. And you
say, you know, all of those things that happened
to us that we didn't choose, I might submit that
even some of the, not some of the, I even submit
that all of the stuff, even that we did choose.
that brought pain on us, was paid for there.
It was completely covered. We do need to repent.
It requires a turning. Yeah, so that's conditional.
100 % right. That requires us to turn away from
and face the Savior, put our back towards, which
is another word for repentance, to turn our back
on something and turn and face the Savior. Well,
that all took place even though, even. Yeah.
Even with the decisions we made. And I believe,
I believe Scott that he suffered it even if we
don't repent. I agree with that. Well, it says
that. I think everything was covered. Yeah. And
we're all going to know after this life when
we see him that he suffered it, whether we repented
of it or not. And we all will see him, whether
we repent or not. We'll talk about that in this
course as well. Right. That all of us will return
to the presence of God. Even... The most wicked
will return any presence of God. That's what
the atonement covered We left God's presence
and because of the atonement of Jesus Christ
We're gonna return to his presence and his atonement
made that possible. That's right So, I don't
know where we're gonna be on Thursday everyone
that's listening to this. I don't know where
you're gonna be But I hope Thursday night you're
thinking about what happened 2000 -something
years ago in the Garden of Gethsemane. I hope
you're thinking about it. And on Friday morning,
you know, I hope that we're thinking about it.
He goes through a mockery of a trial. The Jews
break their own law by having a judgment or a
trial through the middle of the night. And then
in the morning he's taken to Pilate. They take
him to Pilate and... and he's accused of sedition
and treason. And Pilate sends him to Herod. This
all is in the morning between six and nine a
.m. And he sends him to Herod, and Herod, who
Jesus has called a fox, puts a purple robe on
him and sends him back to Pilate because Jesus
won't even speak to Herod who's the governor
of Galilee and is only in Jerusalem because it's
Passover and he's hypocritically celebrating
Passover. And so he sends him back to Pilate
and by then Pilate knows and this I guess the
straw that breaks the camel's back is so to speak
is when Pilate says it's according to your own
law you can let one prisoner go free I find Jesus
to be guiltless so I offer him to let him go
free to find him innocent or I'll give you Bartimaeus
Bartimaeus is a in one of the Gospels called
a murderer he's a thief and a murderer or you
can let him go free And the Jews prefer to let
him go free, a murderer, than to let Jesus go
free. And some in the crowd, I'm sure led by
the Sadducees and Pharisees, and the Sanhedrin
begin to chant, crucify him, crucify him. And
so Pilate washes his hands and sends him to be
scourged. At 9 a .m. he's, after carrying his
own cross, is nailed to the cross at 9 a .m.
And from 9 a .m., this is important, from 9 a
.m. to noon, he makes some comments. And then
at 12 noon, all of Gethsemane reoccurs on the
cross. It's wrong for us to think that Jesus
paid for all of our sins in Gethsemane. That
was not finished until he said it was finished
at 3 p .m. On Friday all of the events from Gethsemane
until he dies at 3 p .m. On Friday is part of
the suffering And that allows him to not only
forgive but gives him divine empathy For the
sins and sicknesses of the people and gives him
power to become who he who he is So at noon he
cries out This is when all of Gethsemane reoccurs
intensified according to Elder Talmage and Elder
McConkey Gethsemane intensified Because he cries
out it goes dark. There's no light and He cries
out my God my God Why has thou forsaken me? now
it's not just his three disciples who kind of
in Gethsemane, but now he acknowledges that he's
all alone and that God has withdrawn his presence
so that he can experience total spiritual death.
That's what he suffered on the cross and in Gethsemane,
which caused him to bleed from every pore. But
I just think it's important that we, we as Latter
-day Saints don't, in my opinion, don't talk
enough about the cross. We know why we don't
display it. We know why it's not an image in
our faith, but we don't talk about it enough
and we don't understand the great suffering that
really occurred there and the role it played.
in him carrying out the atonement. In fact, he
chooses, Scott, to talk about the crucifixion.
I was crucified for the sins of the world, he
says, six times in the Doctrine and Covenants,
he says that. He only chooses to talk about Gethsemane
one time in the Doctrine and Covenants in D &C
19. But over and over again, he focuses on the
suffering on the cross. So the culmination and
the climax of his suffering does not take place
in Gethsemane, but on the cross. And by 3 p .m.
he's dead. And then Saturday, of course, they
have to hurry and bury him because their Sabbath
begins Friday night. And he's dead on Saturday
in the spirit world. And on Sunday morning, of
course, is what we remember and celebrate. as
his resurrection in Easter. And that's what we'll
be celebrating this Sunday as we celebrate Easter
here. And so many things go through my mind as
you just went through the accounts of that, especially
Friday, Thursday too, as Jesus did go through
all of the suffering that he went through. And
we think about it, we've been taught this since
we were little kids in Sunday school. for those
of us who have been around that long, and for
those of us who haven't, we've still been taught
this, we're taught it all the time. We hear that,
you know, why hast thou forsaken me? And he's
talking to his father. You know, and I never
really thought about it, Dave, that he had to
go through that spiritual death as well. Can
you expound on that just a little bit, maybe?
Well, I think, again, when we sin, When we sin
and we remove ourselves we turn our back on God
and we deny ourselves His presence Jesus had
to feel the absolute depths of that I believe
he felt to some degree what's even sons of perdition
must feel where there's no light where there's
complete utter darkness He had to feel this for
all of the sons and daughters of God who will
experience it in order to really meet the demands
of justice and mercy, the laws of justice and
mercy which he was fulfilling. And so that no
one will say that he didn't suffer for me, that
he doesn't know how I feel. He suffered it all.
And he suffered it all. He suffered it all, not
just our pain. I mean, not just our sin. He didn't
suffer just for our sin. He suffered it all.
So we have friends, Dave, who have dealt with
cancer. We have friends in common who have dealt
with the loss of children. We have friends in
common, and even you and I have even had these
types of things in our lives where friends, family,
ourselves, whatever, by our own choices or by
the choice of others. You have felt that too.
And to know that there's hope. When Pilate brought
Jesus before the crowd, he had a question for
them. He says, what would you have me do with
this Jesus who you call Christ, right? And so
I think that's a question that we need to consider
in our own lives. What would we do? What do we
do? How do we approach Jesus Christ in our own
lives? And are we? Are we, and this is to me
the most important question, at least in this
moment, but are we using and applying those things
that were so freely given to us in the pains
and depths of Gethsemane, culminating on the
cross on Golgotha, and even still that are rippling
into eternity front and back of that event. I
mean, it covered everything that had happened,
covered everything that will happen, all in that
one moment. So we go through this week and maybe
Thursday in those quiet moments, you know, that
you suggested for us, Dave. during the Last Supper,
between what again, six and nine p .m. during
that period? Well, that's when, six to nine is
probably when they're partaking of their Passover
meal. I hope that we can put ourselves in the
seat of that upper room. I hope that we can put
ourselves in the fold. if you will, of Jesus
Christ in that moment and realize that maybe
we were there with him. I know that my trials
were there. I know that the things that so easily
beset me and messed me up, I know they were there
for sure. And so... There's just so much richness,
so many things that I take and can take from
the things that we're talking about here. But
those are a couple of things, Dave, that really
kind of poignantly hit me today as we're discussing
this. Well, thank you, Scott. I think maybe it's
appropriate. Are we getting near ending time
here? We've got about 15 minutes still. You know,
Scott, this scripture is so powerful and I think
about it. And you kind of raised the question,
you know, I wonder if we observed this. We would
have been in the pre -mortal existence, those
of us who were born after this happened. I wonder
how much the people in the spirit world would
have maybe been able to be aware of this. I wonder
how many really witnessed it. I'm sure there
were angels there. you know, who strengthened
him. We know that. We know Boring Elder McConkey,
he described the angel who came to strengthen
him as Adam or Michael, who came to strengthen
him in Gethsemane. And this is another reason
why the cross was worse than Gethsemane. In Gethsemane,
at least he had an angel there to strengthen
him on the cross. There was no one there, right?
He was all completely forsaken utterly completely
alone But I wonder where we were and I when I
every time I read the words of Isaiah in Isaiah
53 Which is also recorded in the Book of Mormon
because I've been a die quoted from it I've been
a die teaching King Noah He reads these verses
and I think this is about Thursday and Friday,
the events of Easter. He is despised and rejected
of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with
grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from
him. He was despised and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our
sorrows. Yet we did esteem him stricken smitten
of God and afflicted But he was wounded for our
transgressions. He was bruised for our inequities
the chastisement of our peace was upon him and
With his stripes we are healed This passage I
often think Was I was I witnessing this was it
was it so bad that I turned my face around Because
I couldn't observe it Was it was did I know did
I have some idea? Before I was ever born About
what Jesus had done for me I'd like to think
that's that's possible that even before we were
born We not only knew the plan of redemption,
but maybe we had witnessed it. Yeah. That maybe
we had seen it. And maybe the reason we turn
our faces from him, maybe Isaiah is saying every
time we sin, we turn our faces from him. But
maybe another reason someone can turn their face
from observing these events in Gethsemane and
on the cross is because it's just too hard to
watch. Right. And I think that I think more of
us maybe saw it and that we were aware of it.
Those of us who live now, we could have maybe
known more about those events in the pre -mortal
existence. And those in the spirit world could
have maybe, some of them maybe could have observed
it as well. Yeah, and as we talk about that,
and we don't know for sure, I mean, you're getting
into some really interesting concepts that I
think that are important for us to consider.
But I can see myself watching that, if that did
happen, just based on the way my personality
has developed in this life, I can see myself
watching that and swearing, I promise you, you
will never. have to pay for any of my sins. I'm
going to make sure that none of that suffering
is mine and you know and we see that you know
I happen to I'm a little bit they call Peter
impetuous impestuous Peter whatever you know
I kind of tend to be that way too he wanted to
go out and fix everything fight everything and
blah blah blah and he just couldn't do it and
you know I think that there there may have been
some of us that had that approach and here we
come to life and here we uh immediately which
is part of the plan right the plan was that transgression
would bring all of this possibility about. And
so, you know, I can just see that then, but now
what do I do with it? And I go back to the question,
what do you do with this Jesus Christ? And Scott
Durfee, what do I do with this Jesus Christ?
It has to be a question that I personally need
to assess on a pretty consistent basis. You know,
as part of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous,
we have a 10th step, and that 10th step says,
I continue to take personal inventory, and when
I'm wrong, I properly admit it. As part of that
10th step for me, that just means I need to take
personal inventory, too, with where is my relationship
with Jesus Christ? And I need to do it on a pretty
consistent basis, because when I don't, That's
when I all of a sudden will wake up one day and
ask myself, where am I and how the heck did I
get here? Figuratively speaking, meaning that
have I wandered away? Have I too turned my face
from him? And getting back to, you know, as we
turn our face from him or we turn away from him,
we know that repentance means turning back to
face him. And that's how we reengage. Well, maybe
this is too hard of a question for you to answer
right now, Scott. But, you know, For many many
years I have been drawn back over and over again
to this quote by President David O. McKay and
I've often I've wondered is that is it really
is that really true? Anyway, he said in conference
of 1951 What you sincerely in your heart think
of Christ will determine Who you are and will
largely determine what your acts will be So I
don't know Scott as you think about that going
back to 20 something years ago when you were
really struggling You know You went on a mission.
I remember your mission. You were extremely successful
as a missionary. I remember how proud your dad
was in telling me your experiences and opportunities
as a missionary in Seattle. And I remember all
of that. But what happened after your mission,
whatever you thought of Jesus? was not what you
should have thought of Jesus. Because if this
statement is true, what President McKay says
is true. What you, in your heart of hearts, think
of Jesus Christ will determine your acts. I don't
know what do you think of that? Yeah, I've thought
that I've read that and I've heard that and I
know that there if you were to ask my friends
in recovery if you were to ask my friends in
my elders quorum if you were to ask my friends
you might get a bunch of different answers, because
I don't know that that I don't know. So there's
a thing called absolute truth. And then there's
things that are more relatively true, meaning
that, you know, that could be more true for me
than somebody else. But this Coming from a prophet
of God who's saying this stuff right and he's
saying that if my heart's right then my actions
are gonna be right or how I feel about and think
about Jesus Christ in my heart that will drive
and influence my not just my actions but the
way yeah my actions and the way I interact and
treat people and respond to things that may not
be so favorable and you know and I think that
Dave this is one of those things that we are
going to get into and potentially be able to
answer that question for all of us as we we go
through this process. But the answer for sure
is, so I'm gonna make it about me. Was my heart
right when I was making decisions that were wrong?
The answer is obviously no. But at the same time,
and I will say this, I think I will say this
forever, I never doubted my testimony. I never
doubted that Jesus Christ loved me. I never...
That might not be 100 % true. I think there were
times when I think that there was clouding of
that understanding, right? I think that I was
able to be clouded through the adversary because
by my actions, I'm now inviting the spirit of
the enemy to be a part of my life. And when that's
there, those two spirits can't be together in
the same place. And so I think that there's a
real, a bunch of confusion that can come around
those things. Another one of the real blessings
that comes from the atonement is to clear those
types of confusions, right? And so, yeah, I'm
not gonna be able to answer it completely and
entirely, but there's a lot of dynamics around
that. Well, I think it's a pretty definitive
statement that he makes, that whatever in your
heart you think of Jesus will determine your
actions. I know that that may not be true in
every single case. But I know that when we sin,
we're not thinking of Jesus. And we're not keeping
the commandment given to us in Doctrine and Covenants,
section six, in this powerful invitation or commandment.
I think this is not just a suggestion or invitation.
I think it's a commandment, and I... I don't
think Jesus gives any commandments that we can't
keep, right? First Nephi 3 .7. But listen to
this. Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not,
fear not. Doubt not, fear not. Wow. That's the
commandment that so many of us break multiple
times a day. Maybe I'm being too strong to call
it a commandment. I don't know, but it sounds
like an imperative to me. And I don't even know
if that's possible to look unto Jesus in every
thought And to go through a day without doubting
and to go with it and go through a day without
fearing But but he goes he goes just a little
further here and in the very next verse he says
Behold the wounds Behold the wounds which pierced
my side And also the prints of the nails in my
hands and feet He's saying every day we should
be thinking about what happens this Friday, right?
Every day every day right every day Should be
in our mind. We should remember we make that
we make that covenant every Sunday. We take a
sacrament That's right that we will remember
remember what? Remember the last week of Jesus'
life. Remember the last few days of his life.
Remember his suffering. Remember him. And it's
so interesting that he, again, focuses on the
cross here. Behold the wounds. Behold the wounds
which pierce my side and the prints of the nails
in my hands and feet. Be faithful. Keep my commandments
including this one. He just gave us and ye shall
inherit the kingdom of heaven So I I think that's
really powerful and something that we should
all consider how we can Improve on is how can
we think of Jesus more often? Well, that's what
I guess that's one reason why I'm interested
in doing this podcast Scott is is To help myself
and to help others to be able to think of him
more often and and to remember and to look into
the wounds and to think about the atonement and
especially his redemption through his blood that
if all of us would think more about it would
change not just ourselves but it would change
our our family and it would change our world
yeah it really would yeah That's just so true.
You know, as we start digging into and diving
into these sacred holy principles that provide
hope, health, healing, and ultimately joy, I
think it's really important. You know, you go
through and we talk about all of the things that
have happened in this holy week. And we talk
about, you know, why do we need to know this?
Every Sunday we have that reminder. and you just
alluded to it. You know, every Sunday we add
an altar partake of emblems, our sacred emblems,
the body, the blood. And as we're doing so, we're
remembering and we're covenanting and we're renewing
covenants. You know, and we are commanded or
we have covenanted to remember him. And I think
about that, you know, and I know that, you know,
we're getting close on time here and we'll kind
of wrap up here in the next. few minutes, but
I just want to say this. I think that, you know,
as I partake of that sacrament, I really had
a just a sweet tender experience with this this
past Sunday. It's fast Sunday in our ward because
of a few different things with state conference
and various things like that. General conference.
General conference. And we actually had state
conference kind of messed us up in all of that
as well. And so, you know, that That sweet experience
as I'm at the altar and I'm thinking about the
beginning of Holy Week, as I'm thinking about
on this day, what did he do? And what's the significance?
And I hear that, you know, that they will always
remember him. You know, we have a couple of ancestors
in common and a couple of them I can really remember.
I can remember your dad, my grandpa very well.
I know how he would react in certain situations.
I know how he smelled when we were out working
on the farm is what we called it. I know how
he treated other people when I worked with him
at the dry cleaners. I know all of these things
about my grandpa, but why do I know these things?
Because I spent time with him, right? How am
I to remember somebody who I never even knew?
How am I to recall events that are significant
in my life and in the lives of those who I love
if I'm not aware of them, if I'm not deeply familiar
with them, if I don't understand the significance
and the symbolism and the eternal progression
that comes from them, I just think, and I'm gonna
submit this pretty strongly, that what we're
talking about today, there's not a more important
topic. There's just nothing more important that
we could be talking about than the atonement,
the redemption of Jesus Christ, the atonement
and the redemption that comes through the atonement
of Jesus Christ and how that not just fixes what
we do wrong, but fixes what is wrong on each
of our lives.