At 51 years old, Carmen believed she understood
who she was until a single phone call changed
everything she thought she knew. Born to a mother
she had never met and adopted into a family marked
by early loss. Carmen's childhood was shaped
by the death of her adoptive mother at just four
years old and the arrival of stepmothers who
offered anything but comfort. She formed her
identity in scraps. moments of wonder, and the
quiet determination to make sense of a world
that never quite made room for her, but nothing
prepared her for the truth she uncovered in mid
-life. She was the product of rape. As Carmen
pieces together her origin, it reveals not tragedy,
but astonishing resilience. For anyone who has
ever questioned where they came from, struggled
to belong, or wondered whether their story mattered,
this offers a powerful promise. Your beginning
does not define your worth. You know, that's
not just a summary of a book. I actually just
read a foreword of a very important book, but
that's not just the summary of a book, that's
actually a life, a life of somebody who's dear
to me, a life of somebody who has been through
hell and back and understands the atonement of
Jesus Christ and is saving grace in ways that
I think is just impossible for us to understand
otherwise. Carmen Durfey. Hi. Welcome. We're
so glad you're here. I'm so glad to be here.
Yeah. Yeah. Carmen is. our cousin. She's married
to my oldest friend, Craig. Craig is just a few
months older than I, and my cousin, he and I
were raised together, and so I've known Carmen
quite well for many, many years. But Carmen,
can you just kind of take us into that story?
I mean, tell us about it. Tell us a little bit
about the book. How did all this come about?
Obviously, we have a ton of questions that we
want to go through kind of in some sort of fashion
or order, but But I want to give you just the
first several minutes of this to just kind of
give us an outline or the outlay of your life
growing up. The reason I wrote the book was it
was a catalyst after I found Joy, my birth mom.
The morning after I had my first conversation
with her, I... Woke up in the morning, I told
Craig, I need a laptop because I have to write
a story. At the time, I thought I was just going
to write stories of my childhood so she could
experience it anyway. And the more I got into
it, the more I mean, God brought me to her, but
he also brought me to this. Like it completely
morphed into a completely different story. What
do you remember from those early seasons of your
life? What are some of the memories that sparked,
you wouldn't have known then what they were sparking
now, but looking back with hindsight, what are
some of those memories, some of those things
that, from that season of your life, what was
it like being a child? It was great. I remember,
actually every memory I have of my mother is
in the book. So I have very few memories, but
all of them are wonderful. She, I felt unconditionally
loved. I felt like I belonged in my family. It
was great. I have two older siblings that are
10 and 12 years older. My parents went through
it. My dad and her and my mom had... a son and
then twin sons that died shortly after birth
and then they had my two sisters and she was
told she couldn't have more children. She had
juvenile diabetes is what they called it back
then. They told her she shouldn't have any more
children and they wanted more children and so
they found a doctor years down the road that
you know knew these girls in these situations
and he placed them he placed their children for
adoption and so that's how they got us in their
family. My brother who is 11 months older than
me. And you, okay. And you were how old? I was
a newborn. Newborn, and your brother too? And
my brother also was a newborn, yeah. So the memories
that you shared with in the book, tell us really
fast, Carmen, what's the name of your book? Okay,
it's Spaghetti, Lemonade, and Finding Joy. And
I kind of say you need to read the book to understand
the title because it's not a cookbook. I love
that. Finding joy her name is joy my birth mother's
name is joy, but in finding her I found joy So
that's that's got a double meaning. I love that
and spaghetti and lemonade are just we'll get
it We'll get into those a little later about
why don't expose the whole book because I'm excited
to read it But I do I I do have some some other
questions So up until four years old you have
some memories of your adoptive mother And they
were, it sounds like they were sweet and cherished
and loving and kind and like just the most wonderful
family. It was as in my recollection, it was
great. I say later on, I, I, I believe that I
believed a lot in in my life that I felt kind
of like not abandoned by God, but overlooked
a lot by God. Interesting that he kind of turned
his back and I got plopped and added, you know,
and then it was my job to figure that out. But.
I remember probably 20 years ago, sitting in
Relief Society meeting and a woman telling, saying,
saying, telling us about all the problems her.
adopted child had and her saying that she believed
the atonement is the only thing that could help
him and fix that and I remember thinking then
that somehow between the atonement and my adopted
mother she instilled in me like a self -worth
that was undeniable which I shouldn't have had
with the with the background I had I shouldn't
have I should not have had or should not have
the What's the word I'm looking for? Just the
confidence. Because my brother was 11 months
older and he did not walk out with that confidence.
So were you the baby of the family? I was the
baby. Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. And I was the adorable
baby. Of course you were. You still are. So as
a little girl, were you taught about God? Was
religion in your home? Yeah. I mean, we were
LDS. We went to church. As a child's perspective,
it was horrible. You know, we were sure we were
in a little chair We didn't even have a chapel
it was so we had kind of like a little tiny building
Then we had the little metal cell chairs just
sat on and you know, I swear there was no time
limit on those meetings I swear it they were
five hours and there was no and there was no
air conditioning And I just remember thinking
you know, this is not fun and we weren't allowed
to swim on Sunday We lived at a lake And so we
weren't allowed to, you know, and then it got
to the point where we're like, we're just gonna
go for a walk, but then we'd end up in the lake
anyway. And so then my dad was like, you can't
even go outside on Sunday. So trying to teach
you to keep the Sabbath day holy. Trying to keep,
yeah. And so I felt as a little, little kid,
I felt like it was just a lot of do's and don'ts,
mostly don'ts. What did you, in the book, you
talk a little bit about your belief or how you
believed in God. at that time, talk a little
bit about that. What did you believe about God?
Well, after my mom passed and I had a couple
of stepmoms that had come and gone, my belief
pretty much changed. This is where spaghetti
comes in. I had in my mind's eye, God looked
down on our lives and we were all a strand of
spaghetti in a big bowl. And he could see the
end from the beginning. But there's a whole lot
of stuff in between that he wasn't really catching.
And I understood that people could make choices
and that would affect me and that didn't really
have anything to do with God. And so that was
kind of like people just tossing the bowl around.
So I really just felt overlooked. I bet. Especially
when the sauce came on there, huh? Oh, yeah.
Oh, there was no sauce. So, Carmen, when did
that overlooked feeling begin? When do you first
remember feeling overlooked? Probably very early
on. When you're sitting in primary and you're
seeing, I'm a child of God. He has sent me here,
has given me an earthly home with parents kind
and dear. And I'm like, you took mine. How is
that part of the plan? And why is that part of
the plan? Yeah, so did God feel close or did
he feel confusing or Or maybe some of all of
that Mostly confusing. Yeah, like I didn't feel
like God. I never felt like God was out to punish
me. I really really thought Especially as I got
older that it was a test Because we get told
with tested all the time we I mean isn't everything
we're told as a test and I even up until I met
joy I was like well Okay, I went through the
schooling, but I don't think I learned the lesson.
Like what was that for? I think a lot of people
probably feel that too. And that spaghetti bowl
or that bowl of spaghetti actually makes a lot
of sense because it is messy down here. It is
definitely messy, and God does know us from the
beginning to the end, but in the middle, it's
messy. It's so messy. During that time, Carmen,
and in the book you talked about this too, during
that time, you struggled, wrestled with just
a lot of questions about God. And I think a lot
of people still carry those questions about God.
But do you remember asking questions about him
during that time, and what were some of those
questions that you were asking? Well, I asked
them all in my head, because I didn't dare. For
sure. Speak them out loud because, you know,
I'd be... You're just a little girl at this point.
Well, and you know... And let's just push pause.
So you're not just a little girl at this point,
but you're a little girl who has lost her mom
at the age of four. and we keep referring to
your mom as your adoptive mom. She was your mom.
She was your mommy. She was your caretaker from
day one. And here you are, just a little girl,
a cute little girl. I can just see you at that
age. And you lose your mommy. And you lose your
mommy. That had to be painful. You know what
I was for and I suppressed a lot of it and I
don't remember, I do remember one time at the
dinner table, in the middle of dinner me looking
at my dad and saying like, I want my mom back.
And him like, she's not coming back. And now
as an adult, I can't imagine the weight on him.
Like how do you explain that to a kid? when you're
in the middle of that yourself. Did your siblings
contribute to any of the comfort during that
loss? No, no, no. No, I have an older sister,
Karen. I have two older sisters. My older sister,
Karen, she was like a surrogate, but she kind
of stepped in for a few years until she got married.
But you know, we've got stepmoms coming in out
of this picture too that don't make - And how
many stepmoms? I mean, you say stepmoms, how
many? Yeah. He was married to the third step
mom by the time I was in, I believe, fifth or
sixth grade. I know by sixth grade, but I don't
remember exactly the time. Sixth grade, you're
around the age of 11 or 12, so in eight years
period of time. Yeah, it was probably fifth grade,
actually, because by sixth grade, I was being
really naughty, and he was married to her then.
So did these moms come in? to replace your mom?
Did they, did they make it feel like, I mean,
because as a child, right? I mean, Carmen, I
want to protect you right now as your little
four year old self. And I want to just say, look,
you're not her mom. Don't try to be her mom.
So were they trying to step in that role? No,
my dad was trying to fill that role. I see. I
see. So, um, that was, yeah, he was trying to
fill that role, but Like, like it was, it was
told immediately to us every time he got married
that we were expected to call her mom. Okay.
And I've got a thing in there about that. Even
as a little kid, I was like, that's not my mom.
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of kids out there
that can relate to that. That's type of story
because divorce is not an uncommon thing and
step parents. I'm a step mom and I'm sensitive
to that. And I think that's why I want to protect
that four year old little girl. It's like, no.
I think there's a lot of people that can relate
to that, filling that void with another human.
And it's just, you can't, you can't, you can't.
Yeah. Um, yeah. And so, um, the first one was
like, it didn't last very long. I'd probably,
I don't even think they were married for six
months. Um, and she literally did not talk to
us. And I've got a funny story about how I got
back at her, but so by her book. Yeah. So anyway,
um, and then the second one lasted. maybe a couple
of years and she had kids and she just was not,
I mean, I say in there, to her credit, she was
just as mean to us as she was her own kids. So
she was just mean. And she never put on airs.
She never put on airs. Like from the very, like
my very first introduction of her was her like
whacking her daughter on the hair with a head
brush. And since then I was like, wow, okay,
this is what we get. It's good that we can laugh
about it. It's good that we can find levity in
it because sometimes those kinds of things are
just not dealt with effectively, really any other
way, except unless we are able to pull in our
Heavenly Father Spirit to help guide us through
those. We talked about what you believe in God.
You said that there was some confusion. There
was some - Forgotten. that you felt forgotten,
overlooked, I think, different things like that.
But as you got older, and I think you talk about
this, and I think this is a natural thing that
a lot of us who are in challenging situations
like that, especially, and I can't imagine, I've
never been where you've been that way, Carmen.
And I can't imagine growing up and wondering.
you know, where's my worth and where does my
worth come from? And worth is so important to
all of us, you know, worth, connection, understanding
where our worth comes from, understanding what
our real and true identity is. And you struggled
with all of that. And you talk about a lot of
that, all of that actually in the book. But as
you got older, Carmen, did it feel like you had
to earn love or earn approval? Most definitely.
My dad did the very best he could and I adored
him. He held a lot of weight in my independence
and my doing it myself. And you know, you gotta
do it yourself. And so I actually had a really
hard time in a lot of those years, like even
like, can I even approach God and ask him for
help? Because I'm supposed to figure this out.
That's my job. That's my job. So you were modeled
by your father. Yeah. that you can do this by
yourself. You don't need to ask for help. Oh,
you don't ask for help. Oh, you don't ask. You
don't ask for help. So you were taught at a very
young age to not ask for help. Yeah. That you're
just going to put your head down in that spaghetti
bowl and you're going to figure your life out.
And I've got to get myself back. I've got to
get myself in vision. That's my job. I also got
to the point with stepmoms where I wasn't going
to earn their approval. And so okay let's go
bring it on kind of bring it on we gonna be at
war and i'm gonna be real naughty so you said
that hit his sixth grade and sixth grade i was
yeah i was sneaking out with friends in sixth
grade and drinking and in fact i was thinking
the fact that i am not an alcoholic is crazy
that's the grace of god 100%, because my brother
went down a completely different road. He obviously
had a very addictive personality, and I for somehow,
I mean, because I partook in those things for
quite a few years. I was trying to find acceptance
and approval somewhere. Right, yeah. Going back
to that seeking acceptance and approval somewhere,
what did all of this do to the way you saw yourself,
Carmen? I saw myself as weak. week and I wouldn't
say worthless because I never felt worthless,
which is interesting. I love that. But I did
feel, I just always felt like I had to earn my
spot anywhere. I had to earn it. I had to act
one way and earn it at home. I had to act one
way and earn it at church. I had to act another
way and earn it with my friends and they were
all different. Like I was acting all these different
parts. How did that relate to how you felt like
you were being seen? or not seen. Well, I had
by about that and then I was hoping I wasn't
being seen. Yeah, I was kind of. Some things
you were under the radar, other things you're
like, OK, here I am. Look at me doing the right
thing. Honestly, yes, honestly. No, at that point
in time, I probably I mean, I was attending church
and I was attending, you know, I was going to
mutual and I was doing those things, but I did
not. I just didn't believe there was an interest,
enough interest in me to help. In the book, you
talk about that there's a moment when where somebody
really sees you and kind of believes in you.
Can you kind of? Oh, that's that's a high school.
Will you tell us about that, though? Yeah. So
one of my one actually, she's one of my good
friends. She was one of my good friends in high
school and her her dad, they were in our ward
and he was our home teacher and he had been our
home teacher for years. And you have to understand
that my stepmom, this one. this third step mom,
she was not mentally well. And it was not fun
to be at our house. And he came regularly to
our house. And he did his job. But anyway, he
caught me one one night when we were at his house.
And he said, basically asked me if I was going
to go to BYU or I was going to go to college.
And I said, no, I can't afford to go anywhere.
And my dad, I mean, my dad can let me live at
home for free, but I'm staying here. And he said,
if you can get in, I'll pay. And I said, no,
you don't need to do that. And I kind of shugged
it off. And he's like, if I can get you out of
that house, I will. I did have other people like
my best friends, my best friend's parents, like
I lived at their house, like her to this day,
her younger siblings, consider me a sibling,
because I was always there. And so I was seen
by them also. Really seen. There were 11. I was
their 12th. 11 children and you were there. I
was the 12th and I was the oldest. I mean, they
were, she was, they were like, they were the
best people, but she would do things like, um,
like she didn't want to put her kids on the insurance,
but you know, the thing is like a, a neighbor
can drive. So I drove the kids everywhere. So
just stuff like that. But anyway, so back to
Tim. So yes, so then Tim offered to pay for me
to go to BYU. And I just could not believe, first
off, that I merited his interest and that I was
worthy of it to him. Why did that matter to you?
Well, because I was seen. I was seen. And I knew.
It was one of the first times too that I felt
like God was seeing me too, that I wasn't just
overlooked. in order for us to be seen or to
feel seen that God does that through other people.
And most of the time he does. Most of the time
he does. And that's why it is, I think, so important
that we respond to the promptings of the Spirit
that we get to say hello or to say, to let somebody
pass through or, you know, to just, and you got
to learn those experience, through those, you
got to learn those lessons through really wonderful
experiences as hard as they may have been. I
mean, the 12th child. You probably felt love
there and acceptance and seeing. 100%. And like,
I mean, her dad would like walk me home at night
and be like, okay, like - Be safe. Yeah. Well,
I'm just like, how are things going? What can
I do? What can we do? What can we - Wow. Just
good, good people who took it. And then they
didn't, I mean, they had 11 kids. Wow. They didn't
need to take me on and they did. They took me
on. There's something powerful about being seen
and especially from others. I mean, we always
hear, you know, get on your knees and pray, get
on your knees. But until somebody physically
shows up and is doing God's work and says, let
me walk you home. Let me keep you safe. Let me
feed you. Let me comfort you. Let me give you
a safe place to play. That changes things. Once
I met Joy and I could see in hindsight all of
this, I could see God never left me. But along
the way it took all those people. for me to be
able to realize I'd been seen. Oh, Carmen, that's
so common. It's always hindsight. I realize that
God had never left me. I mean, how often do we
hear that? And how often have we said that? And
we've talked about that so many times in the
podcast too, Deb, right? He was there all along.
We just got done, I think I even made mention
of this last week, but we just got done studying
about Joseph in Egypt, Joseph in the coat of
many colors, and come follow me. And so many
times in Genesis when it's talking about that,
talking about his troubles, and it says, and
God was with him, and God was with Joseph, and
God was with him. And I wonder, I wonder if Joseph
felt like God was with him when his brothers
were beating him up and selling him into slavery.
I wonder if Carmen felt like God was with her
when she was going through the trials that a
little girl just shouldn't have to go through.
And God was with her. and God was with her. And
in hindsight, you've been given a gift to see
that. Not everybody accepts that gift. Well,
not everybody gets that opportunity. I feel like
so blessed, because a lot of people go their
entire lives and they don't get that realization
that I was able to get. They're unable to receive
the gift, because they don't know the giver of
the gift. And Carmen, you do, and that's kind
of... to even use the word kind of would be inappropriate.
That's totally what has capitulated your entire
life is a relationship with him. At what point
did your relationship with Jesus Christ become
personal? Not just something you were told, but
something you actually knew, felt that it became
a part of you. Actually, I was dating a boy in
high school that had a really, really strong
testimony. And I remember going home thinking,
I want what he has. and me deciding then I'm
gonna fish or cut bait. I've got to find out
if this is true or if it's not true. And the
change, nothing, I mean, my circumstances didn't
change at all, not one bit. I still lived with
a crazy woman. I still, but my entire life changed.
My entire outlook changed. I had... I had a freedom
and a peace I did not know existed until then.
How did that come? A lot of scripture study,
a lot of prayer. I mean, cause okay, so like
if we go back to grade school and junior high,
like I was smoking, I was drinking, I was doing
all kinds of stuff. Luckily I was. I looked like
a boy and I was very unattractive, so it's not
like I had a lot of boys chasing me, which was,
once again, a blessing I didn't know at the time
was a blessing. A blessing that's hard for some
of us to believe at this point in your life.
We had moved and I had decided before then, I've
gotta stop all this stuff. But I still wasn't
all in. I still - How old were you approximately
at this age? I was 15 then, 15, 16. And then
it was another year or so when I started dating
this boy and I was like - So you were like a
junior in high school. I was a junior in high
school. And I was like, okay, I gotta see what
there really is to this. And so that's when I
started doing all the Sunday school answers.
And by gum, they work. So you obviously weren't
looking like a boy at that age because you got
a boyfriend. Well, all right. So obviously this
relationship or this friendship with this young
man who you said, and I love the way you said
that you said, I wanted what he had. You know,
that's one of the things in recovery that is
so important, especially when picking somebody
like to be a sponsor or a mentor or whatever
like that. It's like, I want what they have.
And so I'm going to listen to what they're going
to tell me on how to get that, you know, and
you wanted what this young man had. And I think
that you probably had some presumptions around
how he had gotten what he had because you had
been kind of raised in the same core belief system,
right? In the church, et cetera. For me, when
I was going through this, it really changed my
self -worth. It really changed how I looked at
myself. But it took a lot of work to get there.
Talk to me a little bit about what it was like
when you began to establish a relationship with
the Savior. where you began to trust him, where
you began to believe him, not just believe in
him, but believe what he actually says and what
he actually did. Talk to me about that. How did
that come about for you? Well, I would say it
came about incrementally. So like when I'm a
junior in high school, I realize what the atonement
can do for me, that I can be forgiven of all
this crap that I've done. So it kind of starts
there. And I believe I believe that I'm a literal
child of God. I believe I have a savior, but
it's not really, it's really not until I met
Joy or had my conversation with Joy and learned
that I was a product of rape and that I was so,
I mean in anybody's, in anybody's argument, like
I'm the first to go. I mean, that is the reality
of the situation. I mean, I'm at the bottom of
the barrel as far as like, you know, worth. And
it took learning that and then realizing that
I didn't get dumped in my family. I got put exactly
where I needed to be put. to get me to the life
I have now. And it really wasn't until then that
I recognized, I mean, people say like, he knows
me by name. Well, you know what? My neighbor
knows me by name, but they don't know me. And
it wasn't until then that I realized he absolutely
100 % knows me and has my back and had my back
the entire time. It was really easy for me always
to understand my relationship with Jesus Christ,
but my Heavenly Father was much more distant.
Anyway, which doesn't make sense because they're
a team. They're one and the same. They work together
and it wasn't until then that I really, really,
really got my worth to Him. Carmen, and you were
51 years old when you met your birth mother.
Half a century, took me a long time. Did you
look for her or did she find you? I did something
I said I would never do and I looked for her.
Once again, that was God telling me I needed
to do it. I literally woke up with a prompting
that I needed to, the prompting was it's time.
And I was like. It's time for what? And then
it's like, you know what it's time for. And I'm
like, how can it be time for something that was
never in the timeline? And then it was persisted
enough that I was like, I need to pursue this.
And so I got on and found out my birth records
were unsealed. And they sent me a copy of my
original birth certificate within like three
weeks. And then with the help of my daughter,
Sydney, who's a great sleuth on social media,
we... We found her within, I mean, a couple hours.
And by the next day, I was talking to her on
the phone. And she was really funny, because
at the end of our first conversation, she said,
well, first off, she was very, very upset that
I was placed in an LDS family. Really? Very upset.
She didn't know then, it was that closed. No,
her... Her two requests were that I not be an
only child and that I go to a Christian household
and her husband was a Reverend or preacher. I'm
not sure exactly what the exact term is for,
but anyway, very not happy I was LDS. Carmen,
I just wanna fill in this gap because there was
a time that. you know you you have somebody telling
you that they'll pay for you to go to college
and then you meet a guy and then you start changing
your life and then all of a sudden your things
started unfolding at 51 but in that time frame
you were married in the temple and you have four
beautiful children and you raised these kids
they were not little when this event occurred
The reason why I want to fill in that gap is
because you were still on that covenant path
in your belief system in where you were going
and what you were doing. I 100 % understood the
role of Jesus Christ in my life and the atonement
in my life. I used the atonement in my life when
Sydney was really really sick and had gotten
out of the hospital and I mean she was really
sick. Every day we're going to a new doctor a
new specialist and they're running tests and
I'm in the hall just Just beside myself like
she's this sick. Are you kidding me? Like are
you kidding me? And I cried I couldn't I mean
I was probably six months that I didn't cry every
day in the shower At least at least I was an
absolute wreck and it's not because I didn't
have faith in heavenly father's plan or like
it wasn't even that it was like I didn't have
faith in myself to be able to deal with the if
she died I just I didn't know if I could if I
could do that and it's one of those things that
I finally had to I had finally had to say I gotta
give it to you if she dies you're gonna get me
through it undoubtedly my favorite name for the
Savior is the Prince of Peace yeah it is my favorite
name because he is the Prince of Peace That is
where, in any circumstance, I've been able to
find peace. I have a lot of daily joy, because
in my mind, joy means, joy means I am, well,
I just have a lot of peace. And I have a lot
of peace because I can lay it at the Savior,
most whatever it is. Like when I was explaining
with Sid, like that was a time I could not let
it go, and I had to let it go. You know, it's
the karma for someone who's spent a lot of years
experiencing what you've experienced and trying
to prove your worth. I know you, and I've known
you for a very long time, and I have always been,
I have always admired the way you carry yourself,
but what did Jesus, what did Jesus Christ change
about that, about the way you spent all those
years trying to prove your self -worth? How did
Jesus change that for you? I no longer felt the
need to earn a spot. I think that's really what
it comes down to. Earn a spot. Earn a spot. I
gave up thinking I had to earn a spot or that
I had to pass a test. Yeah, you talked about
that a minute ago. So at what point, so you felt
like you were trying to prove yourself, obviously.
I mean, I feel like I still do in a lot of cases.
It's my go, it's my fallback. I mean, I didn't
walk out of that childhood without a whole bunch
of insecurities. And I think that is like, I
have to catch myself all the time trying to do
it all to earn. Yeah. Was there a point though,
when that kind of capitulated change shifted
for you? Where you didn't really feel like you
had to prove yourself? I mean, I hear you say
that you still have these habits. You still have
these, you know, that we go back to and we all
have those types of things, for sure. But they
don't always have to do with our core belief
system anymore. At what point did you stop trying
to prove yourself or did you realize that it
was no longer necessary? Honestly, it was when
I met her at 51 years old. I've been doing it
till then. Explain that to me. What about that
meeting with her changed that for you? I just
finally realized that I hadn't been overlooked.
It honestly felt like God turned his back while
I was being dropped. And up until then when I
met her and I realized I was very carefully placed
exactly where I needed to be, mostly so that
I would have the gospel in my life, so that I
would end up with the life I have. Once I realized
this, I didn't have to figure out what I had
to learn. It was kind of like, oh my gosh, this
wasn't a test. Actually, the best way I think
I know how to say it is that I finally realized
I wasn't given my life as a trial. It was my
biggest blessing, but it came with a trial because
everything does. And that's what you mean when
you talk about trying to pass a test, trying
to pass that test. Up until then, I was like,
and I understood the atonement, I understood
these things, but I still felt like I can't.
I still haven't learned what I need to learn.
I still haven't proven myself. And after that,
it's like, oh, there is no test. I'm loved. Carmen,
for someone who felt like they'd... didn't belong,
what would you say to someone who feels that
now? For someone who doesn't feel like they belong,
that they have just been dropped, or that they
have been forgotten, or they're in that spaghetti,
what would you tell that person? that or maybe
even that younger version of Carmen what would
you tell that person that's in that belief system
or that understanding now I think you you alluded
to it but what what would you tell that listener
that perhaps thinks that God turned their back
on them that even if you can't see it he's there
but that's easy to say but when you're in it
it's hard to feel or see, does that make sense?
100 % it makes sense to me. I don't know what
I could say that would honestly get through to
them other than being the one to reach out and
to see them. I think that's the biggest thing
that I, the biggest takeaway I wanted people
to understand when they read the book is that
every single life is as complex as my own and
I owe you unlimited amount of respect and awe
and help for your journey. Is that why you're
so generous and kind and loving and unconditional
to everyone? Because I feel like that's who you
are. I don't know maybe. I have had the pleasure
of knowing you for 20 almost four years. when
I married into this family, and I remember a
family reunion where you guys, Carmen, can dance.
I'm just gonna say that. But I just remember
meeting you for the first time, and I could feel
your love, your acceptance, your kindness, your
openness to everyone. And we go to Vegas every
December to the rodeo. These are our people.
And I see how she interacts with complete strangers.
I hear her and she asks about our children and
she has this genuine concern and love and this
passion for her own children that is, and it
exudes, it is absolutely, I mean it's, you can
see it, it's tangible. Oh, that's sweet. Thanks
for sharing that Deb, because I feel the exact
same way, you know. I would honestly say that
like, so I believe that like, so when I felt
like I was left alone, I didn't realize that
I was given a gift by Heavenly Father of optimism.
I was born with this optimism. And I recognize
that now as a gift. I recognize the gift of self
-confidence, because I didn't need to have it.
I recognize the gift of just enjoying. I love
people. When I was sitting in it, it didn't feel
like, well, first off, as a kid, you don't think
those are gifts. but I look back now and I recognize
that those were things given to me as tools.
In high school, my favorite scripture became,
so okay, like in seminary, they'd be like, memorize
where it came from. I don't know where it came
from. I was like, if I memorize scripture, why
do I need to know where it came from? I'm not
gonna be looking it up. And so, like, I don't
know where it came from. I don't have to look
it up, I have it memorized. I have it memorized,
but I don't know which one it is. I can't tell
you where it's at. But it was, trust in the Lord
with all thy heart, lean out unto thy own understanding,
in all thy ways acknowledge him, and he will
direct thy paths. And that scripture. Like, I
could just, it was a constant mantra all through
high school, all through college, all through
probably early years of all those little boys.
You know, Carmen, I think a lot of us, we spend
years just growing up and trying to prove something,
that we matter, or that we belong, or even that
we're enough. And maybe what your story, Carmen,
shows is that we were never meant to earn that
even in the first place. No, we were not. Maybe
it was already true. and maybe joy doesn't come
from finally getting everything right. Maybe
it comes from realizing we were never alone in
it. That we belong to Him. And not just through
the Savior, but Heavenly Father to know that
we are children of God. Carmen, we love you.
I love you guys. We love your book. We hope that
our listeners will become readers. The title
of the book again is Spaghetti Lemonade and Finding
Joy. And it's available anywhere. I bought a
Kindle copy of it last night because I couldn't
find my paper copy of it as we were preparing
for this. So it's on Amazon. It's on every place
else. So please, please, please. And if you live
by, you can show up at my door. You get an autographed
copy. And if you live far away, let us know and
we'll get you an autographed copy. and mail it
to you. Deb will. I have time. Thanks for being
with us, everybody. We look forward to being
with you again next week, and until then, be
well.