WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 At 51 years old, Carmen believed she understood 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:05.700 who she was until a single phone call changed 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.759 everything she thought she knew. Born to a mother 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:12.220 she had never met and adopted into a family marked 00:00:12.220 --> 00:00:15.539 by early loss. Carmen's childhood was shaped 00:00:15.539 --> 00:00:18.519 by the death of her adoptive mother at just four 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.960 years old and the arrival of stepmothers who 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:25.260 offered anything but comfort. She formed her 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:29.170 identity in scraps. moments of wonder, and the 00:00:29.170 --> 00:00:31.609 quiet determination to make sense of a world 00:00:31.609 --> 00:00:34.909 that never quite made room for her, but nothing 00:00:34.909 --> 00:00:37.750 prepared her for the truth she uncovered in mid 00:00:37.750 --> 00:00:43.009 -life. She was the product of rape. As Carmen 00:00:43.009 --> 00:00:46.789 pieces together her origin, it reveals not tragedy, 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:51.189 but astonishing resilience. For anyone who has 00:00:51.189 --> 00:00:54.729 ever questioned where they came from, struggled 00:00:54.729 --> 00:00:58.500 to belong, or wondered whether their story mattered, 00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:02.520 this offers a powerful promise. Your beginning 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:07.420 does not define your worth. You know, that's 00:01:07.420 --> 00:01:10.250 not just a summary of a book. I actually just 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:14.230 read a foreword of a very important book, but 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:16.310 that's not just the summary of a book, that's 00:01:16.310 --> 00:01:19.170 actually a life, a life of somebody who's dear 00:01:19.170 --> 00:01:23.250 to me, a life of somebody who has been through 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:26.670 hell and back and understands the atonement of 00:01:26.670 --> 00:01:29.750 Jesus Christ and is saving grace in ways that 00:01:29.750 --> 00:01:32.310 I think is just impossible for us to understand 00:01:32.310 --> 00:01:37.390 otherwise. Carmen Durfey. Hi. Welcome. We're 00:01:37.390 --> 00:01:39.849 so glad you're here. I'm so glad to be here. 00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:44.099 Yeah. Yeah. Carmen is. our cousin. She's married 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:48.359 to my oldest friend, Craig. Craig is just a few 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:51.959 months older than I, and my cousin, he and I 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:54.459 were raised together, and so I've known Carmen 00:01:54.459 --> 00:01:57.540 quite well for many, many years. But Carmen, 00:01:57.540 --> 00:02:01.280 can you just kind of take us into that story? 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:03.760 I mean, tell us about it. Tell us a little bit 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:05.840 about the book. How did all this come about? 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:07.939 Obviously, we have a ton of questions that we 00:02:07.939 --> 00:02:10.960 want to go through kind of in some sort of fashion 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.020 or order, but But I want to give you just the 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:14.939 first several minutes of this to just kind of 00:02:14.939 --> 00:02:19.460 give us an outline or the outlay of your life 00:02:19.460 --> 00:02:25.159 growing up. The reason I wrote the book was it 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:28.759 was a catalyst after I found Joy, my birth mom. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.400 The morning after I had my first conversation 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:35.379 with her, I... Woke up in the morning, I told 00:02:35.379 --> 00:02:37.379 Craig, I need a laptop because I have to write 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:40.860 a story. At the time, I thought I was just going 00:02:40.860 --> 00:02:45.060 to write stories of my childhood so she could 00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:47.840 experience it anyway. And the more I got into 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.360 it, the more I mean, God brought me to her, but 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.439 he also brought me to this. Like it completely 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:56.580 morphed into a completely different story. What 00:02:56.580 --> 00:03:00.259 do you remember from those early seasons of your 00:03:00.259 --> 00:03:03.780 life? What are some of the memories that sparked, 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.599 you wouldn't have known then what they were sparking 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.319 now, but looking back with hindsight, what are 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:12.360 some of those memories, some of those things 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.500 that, from that season of your life, what was 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:21.000 it like being a child? It was great. I remember, 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.840 actually every memory I have of my mother is 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:29.129 in the book. So I have very few memories, but 00:03:29.129 --> 00:03:34.289 all of them are wonderful. She, I felt unconditionally 00:03:34.289 --> 00:03:42.610 loved. I felt like I belonged in my family. It 00:03:42.610 --> 00:03:45.409 was great. I have two older siblings that are 00:03:45.409 --> 00:03:47.650 10 and 12 years older. My parents went through 00:03:47.650 --> 00:03:54.449 it. My dad and her and my mom had... a son and 00:03:54.449 --> 00:03:58.009 then twin sons that died shortly after birth 00:03:58.009 --> 00:04:01.090 and then they had my two sisters and she was 00:04:01.090 --> 00:04:03.030 told she couldn't have more children. She had 00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:04.849 juvenile diabetes is what they called it back 00:04:04.849 --> 00:04:07.270 then. They told her she shouldn't have any more 00:04:07.270 --> 00:04:09.930 children and they wanted more children and so 00:04:09.930 --> 00:04:13.530 they found a doctor years down the road that 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:15.849 you know knew these girls in these situations 00:04:15.849 --> 00:04:18.069 and he placed them he placed their children for 00:04:18.069 --> 00:04:20.709 adoption and so that's how they got us in their 00:04:20.709 --> 00:04:22.709 family. My brother who is 11 months older than 00:04:22.709 --> 00:04:26.949 me. And you, okay. And you were how old? I was 00:04:26.949 --> 00:04:29.529 a newborn. Newborn, and your brother too? And 00:04:29.529 --> 00:04:34.790 my brother also was a newborn, yeah. So the memories 00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:38.870 that you shared with in the book, tell us really 00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:41.230 fast, Carmen, what's the name of your book? Okay, 00:04:41.470 --> 00:04:45.310 it's Spaghetti, Lemonade, and Finding Joy. And 00:04:45.310 --> 00:04:47.329 I kind of say you need to read the book to understand 00:04:47.329 --> 00:04:51.250 the title because it's not a cookbook. I love 00:04:51.250 --> 00:04:55.430 that. Finding joy her name is joy my birth mother's 00:04:55.430 --> 00:05:00.009 name is joy, but in finding her I found joy So 00:05:00.009 --> 00:05:02.490 that's that's got a double meaning. I love that 00:05:02.490 --> 00:05:05.230 and spaghetti and lemonade are just we'll get 00:05:05.230 --> 00:05:07.129 it We'll get into those a little later about 00:05:07.129 --> 00:05:09.470 why don't expose the whole book because I'm excited 00:05:09.470 --> 00:05:14.250 to read it But I do I I do have some some other 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:18.790 questions So up until four years old you have 00:05:18.790 --> 00:05:23.269 some memories of your adoptive mother And they 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:26.209 were, it sounds like they were sweet and cherished 00:05:26.209 --> 00:05:31.149 and loving and kind and like just the most wonderful 00:05:31.149 --> 00:05:34.990 family. It was as in my recollection, it was 00:05:34.990 --> 00:05:42.810 great. I say later on, I, I, I believe that I 00:05:42.810 --> 00:05:47.740 believed a lot in in my life that I felt kind 00:05:47.740 --> 00:05:49.759 of like not abandoned by God, but overlooked 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:52.980 a lot by God. Interesting that he kind of turned 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:57.279 his back and I got plopped and added, you know, 00:05:57.339 --> 00:06:01.180 and then it was my job to figure that out. But. 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.279 I remember probably 20 years ago, sitting in 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.519 Relief Society meeting and a woman telling, saying, 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:09.939 saying, telling us about all the problems her. 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:13.550 adopted child had and her saying that she believed 00:06:13.550 --> 00:06:15.389 the atonement is the only thing that could help 00:06:15.389 --> 00:06:18.670 him and fix that and I remember thinking then 00:06:18.670 --> 00:06:23.209 that somehow between the atonement and my adopted 00:06:23.209 --> 00:06:27.129 mother she instilled in me like a self -worth 00:06:27.129 --> 00:06:31.110 that was undeniable which I shouldn't have had 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.889 with the with the background I had I shouldn't 00:06:33.889 --> 00:06:36.350 have I should not have had or should not have 00:06:36.350 --> 00:06:41.660 the What's the word I'm looking for? Just the 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.740 confidence. Because my brother was 11 months 00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:46.639 older and he did not walk out with that confidence. 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:49.360 So were you the baby of the family? I was the 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.699 baby. Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. And I was the adorable 00:06:52.699 --> 00:06:57.220 baby. Of course you were. You still are. So as 00:06:57.220 --> 00:07:00.519 a little girl, were you taught about God? Was 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.379 religion in your home? Yeah. I mean, we were 00:07:03.379 --> 00:07:05.959 LDS. We went to church. As a child's perspective, 00:07:06.139 --> 00:07:09.370 it was horrible. You know, we were sure we were 00:07:09.370 --> 00:07:11.230 in a little chair We didn't even have a chapel 00:07:11.230 --> 00:07:13.449 it was so we had kind of like a little tiny building 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:15.230 Then we had the little metal cell chairs just 00:07:15.230 --> 00:07:17.850 sat on and you know, I swear there was no time 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:21.009 limit on those meetings I swear it they were 00:07:21.009 --> 00:07:23.189 five hours and there was no and there was no 00:07:23.189 --> 00:07:25.230 air conditioning And I just remember thinking 00:07:25.230 --> 00:07:28.209 you know, this is not fun and we weren't allowed 00:07:28.209 --> 00:07:31.649 to swim on Sunday We lived at a lake And so we 00:07:31.649 --> 00:07:33.610 weren't allowed to, you know, and then it got 00:07:33.610 --> 00:07:34.850 to the point where we're like, we're just gonna 00:07:34.850 --> 00:07:36.470 go for a walk, but then we'd end up in the lake 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:38.610 anyway. And so then my dad was like, you can't 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:42.589 even go outside on Sunday. So trying to teach 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:44.589 you to keep the Sabbath day holy. Trying to keep, 00:07:44.610 --> 00:07:48.029 yeah. And so I felt as a little, little kid, 00:07:48.290 --> 00:07:50.370 I felt like it was just a lot of do's and don'ts, 00:07:50.629 --> 00:07:53.290 mostly don'ts. What did you, in the book, you 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:56.110 talk a little bit about your belief or how you 00:07:56.110 --> 00:07:59.279 believed in God. at that time, talk a little 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.220 bit about that. What did you believe about God? 00:08:02.579 --> 00:08:06.160 Well, after my mom passed and I had a couple 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.720 of stepmoms that had come and gone, my belief 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.519 pretty much changed. This is where spaghetti 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:15.660 comes in. I had in my mind's eye, God looked 00:08:15.660 --> 00:08:19.259 down on our lives and we were all a strand of 00:08:19.259 --> 00:08:22.800 spaghetti in a big bowl. And he could see the 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.160 end from the beginning. But there's a whole lot 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.160 of stuff in between that he wasn't really catching. 00:08:27.939 --> 00:08:30.459 And I understood that people could make choices 00:08:30.459 --> 00:08:33.840 and that would affect me and that didn't really 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.600 have anything to do with God. And so that was 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.299 kind of like people just tossing the bowl around. 00:08:38.899 --> 00:08:44.340 So I really just felt overlooked. I bet. Especially 00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:46.259 when the sauce came on there, huh? Oh, yeah. 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.220 Oh, there was no sauce. So, Carmen, when did 00:08:49.220 --> 00:08:51.940 that overlooked feeling begin? When do you first 00:08:51.940 --> 00:08:58.460 remember feeling overlooked? Probably very early 00:08:58.460 --> 00:09:00.679 on. When you're sitting in primary and you're 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:02.799 seeing, I'm a child of God. He has sent me here, 00:09:02.980 --> 00:09:05.200 has given me an earthly home with parents kind 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.960 and dear. And I'm like, you took mine. How is 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.399 that part of the plan? And why is that part of 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:15.559 the plan? Yeah, so did God feel close or did 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:20.299 he feel confusing or Or maybe some of all of 00:09:20.299 --> 00:09:23.740 that Mostly confusing. Yeah, like I didn't feel 00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:25.679 like God. I never felt like God was out to punish 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:30.480 me. I really really thought Especially as I got 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.440 older that it was a test Because we get told 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.879 with tested all the time we I mean isn't everything 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.580 we're told as a test and I even up until I met 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.940 joy I was like well Okay, I went through the 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:45.259 schooling, but I don't think I learned the lesson. 00:09:45.820 --> 00:09:48.759 Like what was that for? I think a lot of people 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.519 probably feel that too. And that spaghetti bowl 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.899 or that bowl of spaghetti actually makes a lot 00:09:54.899 --> 00:09:57.690 of sense because it is messy down here. It is 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:00.250 definitely messy, and God does know us from the 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:02.570 beginning to the end, but in the middle, it's 00:10:02.570 --> 00:10:05.009 messy. It's so messy. During that time, Carmen, 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:07.230 and in the book you talked about this too, during 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:10.830 that time, you struggled, wrestled with just 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:15.070 a lot of questions about God. And I think a lot 00:10:15.070 --> 00:10:17.210 of people still carry those questions about God. 00:10:17.649 --> 00:10:20.149 But do you remember asking questions about him 00:10:20.149 --> 00:10:22.210 during that time, and what were some of those 00:10:22.210 --> 00:10:24.250 questions that you were asking? Well, I asked 00:10:24.250 --> 00:10:26.179 them all in my head, because I didn't dare. For 00:10:26.179 --> 00:10:28.419 sure. Speak them out loud because, you know, 00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:30.539 I'd be... You're just a little girl at this point. 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:33.159 Well, and you know... And let's just push pause. 00:10:33.419 --> 00:10:35.240 So you're not just a little girl at this point, 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.440 but you're a little girl who has lost her mom 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.440 at the age of four. and we keep referring to 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.419 your mom as your adoptive mom. She was your mom. 00:10:43.940 --> 00:10:47.100 She was your mommy. She was your caretaker from 00:10:47.100 --> 00:10:51.379 day one. And here you are, just a little girl, 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.159 a cute little girl. I can just see you at that 00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:00.039 age. And you lose your mommy. And you lose your 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:06.320 mommy. That had to be painful. You know what 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.580 I was for and I suppressed a lot of it and I 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:12.899 don't remember, I do remember one time at the 00:11:12.899 --> 00:11:17.139 dinner table, in the middle of dinner me looking 00:11:17.139 --> 00:11:21.440 at my dad and saying like, I want my mom back. 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.919 And him like, she's not coming back. And now 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.480 as an adult, I can't imagine the weight on him. 00:11:32.139 --> 00:11:35.620 Like how do you explain that to a kid? when you're 00:11:35.620 --> 00:11:38.639 in the middle of that yourself. Did your siblings 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.519 contribute to any of the comfort during that 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:47.340 loss? No, no, no. No, I have an older sister, 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.559 Karen. I have two older sisters. My older sister, 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:52.559 Karen, she was like a surrogate, but she kind 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.980 of stepped in for a few years until she got married. 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:58.659 But you know, we've got stepmoms coming in out 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:00.100 of this picture too that don't make - And how 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:02.679 many stepmoms? I mean, you say stepmoms, how 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:07.639 many? Yeah. He was married to the third step 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.220 mom by the time I was in, I believe, fifth or 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:14.120 sixth grade. I know by sixth grade, but I don't 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.279 remember exactly the time. Sixth grade, you're 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.340 around the age of 11 or 12, so in eight years 00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:22.779 period of time. Yeah, it was probably fifth grade, 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.299 actually, because by sixth grade, I was being 00:12:24.299 --> 00:12:27.419 really naughty, and he was married to her then. 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:35.679 So did these moms come in? to replace your mom? 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.679 Did they, did they make it feel like, I mean, 00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:42.259 because as a child, right? I mean, Carmen, I 00:12:42.259 --> 00:12:43.960 want to protect you right now as your little 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:45.940 four year old self. And I want to just say, look, 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:48.960 you're not her mom. Don't try to be her mom. 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:52.039 So were they trying to step in that role? No, 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.059 my dad was trying to fill that role. I see. I 00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:57.659 see. So, um, that was, yeah, he was trying to 00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:00.490 fill that role, but Like, like it was, it was 00:13:00.490 --> 00:13:02.789 told immediately to us every time he got married 00:13:02.789 --> 00:13:05.889 that we were expected to call her mom. Okay. 00:13:05.990 --> 00:13:07.529 And I've got a thing in there about that. Even 00:13:07.529 --> 00:13:11.509 as a little kid, I was like, that's not my mom. 00:13:11.789 --> 00:13:13.970 Yeah. And I think there's a lot of kids out there 00:13:13.970 --> 00:13:17.509 that can relate to that. That's type of story 00:13:17.509 --> 00:13:20.669 because divorce is not an uncommon thing and 00:13:20.669 --> 00:13:24.049 step parents. I'm a step mom and I'm sensitive 00:13:24.049 --> 00:13:25.649 to that. And I think that's why I want to protect 00:13:25.649 --> 00:13:27.470 that four year old little girl. It's like, no. 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:29.899 I think there's a lot of people that can relate 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:33.679 to that, filling that void with another human. 00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:37.440 And it's just, you can't, you can't, you can't. 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.320 Yeah. Um, yeah. And so, um, the first one was 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.899 like, it didn't last very long. I'd probably, 00:13:42.059 --> 00:13:44.179 I don't even think they were married for six 00:13:44.179 --> 00:13:47.100 months. Um, and she literally did not talk to 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:48.840 us. And I've got a funny story about how I got 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.299 back at her, but so by her book. Yeah. So anyway, 00:13:52.299 --> 00:13:56.519 um, and then the second one lasted. maybe a couple 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:59.919 of years and she had kids and she just was not, 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.320 I mean, I say in there, to her credit, she was 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.820 just as mean to us as she was her own kids. So 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:07.919 she was just mean. And she never put on airs. 00:14:08.059 --> 00:14:11.120 She never put on airs. Like from the very, like 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.220 my very first introduction of her was her like 00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:14.759 whacking her daughter on the hair with a head 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.059 brush. And since then I was like, wow, okay, 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.240 this is what we get. It's good that we can laugh 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.360 about it. It's good that we can find levity in 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.980 it because sometimes those kinds of things are 00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:30.679 just not dealt with effectively, really any other 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.120 way, except unless we are able to pull in our 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:36.919 Heavenly Father Spirit to help guide us through 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.539 those. We talked about what you believe in God. 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.440 You said that there was some confusion. There 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.389 was some - Forgotten. that you felt forgotten, 00:14:45.830 --> 00:14:48.889 overlooked, I think, different things like that. 00:14:49.389 --> 00:14:52.429 But as you got older, and I think you talk about 00:14:52.429 --> 00:14:54.970 this, and I think this is a natural thing that 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:57.289 a lot of us who are in challenging situations 00:14:57.289 --> 00:14:59.309 like that, especially, and I can't imagine, I've 00:14:59.309 --> 00:15:01.409 never been where you've been that way, Carmen. 00:15:02.070 --> 00:15:04.330 And I can't imagine growing up and wondering. 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:07.080 you know, where's my worth and where does my 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.539 worth come from? And worth is so important to 00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:13.340 all of us, you know, worth, connection, understanding 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.159 where our worth comes from, understanding what 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.440 our real and true identity is. And you struggled 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.019 with all of that. And you talk about a lot of 00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:25.519 that, all of that actually in the book. But as 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.820 you got older, Carmen, did it feel like you had 00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:32.399 to earn love or earn approval? Most definitely. 00:15:34.969 --> 00:15:37.990 My dad did the very best he could and I adored 00:15:37.990 --> 00:15:41.750 him. He held a lot of weight in my independence 00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:46.090 and my doing it myself. And you know, you gotta 00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:49.230 do it yourself. And so I actually had a really 00:15:49.230 --> 00:15:51.169 hard time in a lot of those years, like even 00:15:51.169 --> 00:15:53.570 like, can I even approach God and ask him for 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:55.409 help? Because I'm supposed to figure this out. 00:15:56.350 --> 00:15:58.509 That's my job. That's my job. So you were modeled 00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:01.570 by your father. Yeah. that you can do this by 00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:03.629 yourself. You don't need to ask for help. Oh, 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:05.909 you don't ask for help. Oh, you don't ask. You 00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:07.710 don't ask for help. So you were taught at a very 00:16:07.710 --> 00:16:10.250 young age to not ask for help. Yeah. That you're 00:16:10.250 --> 00:16:12.009 just going to put your head down in that spaghetti 00:16:12.009 --> 00:16:13.509 bowl and you're going to figure your life out. 00:16:13.509 --> 00:16:15.990 And I've got to get myself back. I've got to 00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:18.649 get myself in vision. That's my job. I also got 00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:20.429 to the point with stepmoms where I wasn't going 00:16:20.429 --> 00:16:24.139 to earn their approval. And so okay let's go 00:16:24.139 --> 00:16:27.700 bring it on kind of bring it on we gonna be at 00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:31.240 war and i'm gonna be real naughty so you said 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.179 that hit his sixth grade and sixth grade i was 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:36.320 yeah i was sneaking out with friends in sixth 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.799 grade and drinking and in fact i was thinking 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:44.399 the fact that i am not an alcoholic is crazy 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.690 that's the grace of god 100%, because my brother 00:16:47.690 --> 00:16:49.370 went down a completely different road. He obviously 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:51.850 had a very addictive personality, and I for somehow, 00:16:52.590 --> 00:16:54.509 I mean, because I partook in those things for 00:16:54.509 --> 00:16:56.850 quite a few years. I was trying to find acceptance 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:00.210 and approval somewhere. Right, yeah. Going back 00:17:00.210 --> 00:17:04.250 to that seeking acceptance and approval somewhere, 00:17:04.750 --> 00:17:07.970 what did all of this do to the way you saw yourself, 00:17:08.269 --> 00:17:13.940 Carmen? I saw myself as weak. week and I wouldn't 00:17:13.940 --> 00:17:15.880 say worthless because I never felt worthless, 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:19.920 which is interesting. I love that. But I did 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.640 feel, I just always felt like I had to earn my 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.359 spot anywhere. I had to earn it. I had to act 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.519 one way and earn it at home. I had to act one 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.319 way and earn it at church. I had to act another 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.319 way and earn it with my friends and they were 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.700 all different. Like I was acting all these different 00:17:36.700 --> 00:17:39.019 parts. How did that relate to how you felt like 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:41.880 you were being seen? or not seen. Well, I had 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.819 by about that and then I was hoping I wasn't 00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:48.859 being seen. Yeah, I was kind of. Some things 00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:50.920 you were under the radar, other things you're 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.700 like, OK, here I am. Look at me doing the right 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.200 thing. Honestly, yes, honestly. No, at that point 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.079 in time, I probably I mean, I was attending church 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:00.839 and I was attending, you know, I was going to 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.119 mutual and I was doing those things, but I did 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:08.180 not. I just didn't believe there was an interest, 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.220 enough interest in me to help. In the book, you 00:18:12.220 --> 00:18:14.440 talk about that there's a moment when where somebody 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:16.279 really sees you and kind of believes in you. 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.740 Can you kind of? Oh, that's that's a high school. 00:18:18.859 --> 00:18:21.319 Will you tell us about that, though? Yeah. So 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.180 one of my one actually, she's one of my good 00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:27.819 friends. She was one of my good friends in high 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:31.099 school and her her dad, they were in our ward 00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:32.859 and he was our home teacher and he had been our 00:18:32.859 --> 00:18:35.119 home teacher for years. And you have to understand 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.490 that my stepmom, this one. this third step mom, 00:18:38.630 --> 00:18:42.710 she was not mentally well. And it was not fun 00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:45.509 to be at our house. And he came regularly to 00:18:45.509 --> 00:18:48.890 our house. And he did his job. But anyway, he 00:18:48.890 --> 00:18:51.670 caught me one one night when we were at his house. 00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:54.710 And he said, basically asked me if I was going 00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:56.890 to go to BYU or I was going to go to college. 00:18:56.910 --> 00:18:58.950 And I said, no, I can't afford to go anywhere. 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.170 And my dad, I mean, my dad can let me live at 00:19:01.170 --> 00:19:04.210 home for free, but I'm staying here. And he said, 00:19:04.230 --> 00:19:08.099 if you can get in, I'll pay. And I said, no, 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:09.940 you don't need to do that. And I kind of shugged 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:12.240 it off. And he's like, if I can get you out of 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:16.819 that house, I will. I did have other people like 00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:19.380 my best friends, my best friend's parents, like 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:22.299 I lived at their house, like her to this day, 00:19:22.420 --> 00:19:25.079 her younger siblings, consider me a sibling, 00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:28.140 because I was always there. And so I was seen 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:31.680 by them also. Really seen. There were 11. I was 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.200 their 12th. 11 children and you were there. I 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.980 was the 12th and I was the oldest. I mean, they 00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:39.339 were, she was, they were like, they were the 00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:42.319 best people, but she would do things like, um, 00:19:42.779 --> 00:19:45.460 like she didn't want to put her kids on the insurance, 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.680 but you know, the thing is like a, a neighbor 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.609 can drive. So I drove the kids everywhere. So 00:19:50.609 --> 00:19:54.509 just stuff like that. But anyway, so back to 00:19:54.509 --> 00:19:58.109 Tim. So yes, so then Tim offered to pay for me 00:19:58.109 --> 00:20:01.230 to go to BYU. And I just could not believe, first 00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:05.630 off, that I merited his interest and that I was 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:10.569 worthy of it to him. Why did that matter to you? 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:14.910 Well, because I was seen. I was seen. And I knew. 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:20.490 It was one of the first times too that I felt 00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:23.569 like God was seeing me too, that I wasn't just 00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:29.039 overlooked. in order for us to be seen or to 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.279 feel seen that God does that through other people. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.579 And most of the time he does. Most of the time 00:20:33.579 --> 00:20:36.500 he does. And that's why it is, I think, so important 00:20:36.500 --> 00:20:39.440 that we respond to the promptings of the Spirit 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.500 that we get to say hello or to say, to let somebody 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:46.900 pass through or, you know, to just, and you got 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:49.160 to learn those experience, through those, you 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.839 got to learn those lessons through really wonderful 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.250 experiences as hard as they may have been. I 00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:59.250 mean, the 12th child. You probably felt love 00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:02.710 there and acceptance and seeing. 100%. And like, 00:21:02.750 --> 00:21:04.690 I mean, her dad would like walk me home at night 00:21:04.690 --> 00:21:07.430 and be like, okay, like - Be safe. Yeah. Well, 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:09.450 I'm just like, how are things going? What can 00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:12.549 I do? What can we do? What can we - Wow. Just 00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:14.809 good, good people who took it. And then they 00:21:14.809 --> 00:21:18.170 didn't, I mean, they had 11 kids. Wow. They didn't 00:21:18.170 --> 00:21:21.750 need to take me on and they did. They took me 00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.079 on. There's something powerful about being seen 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.579 and especially from others. I mean, we always 00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:30.940 hear, you know, get on your knees and pray, get 00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:33.640 on your knees. But until somebody physically 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.940 shows up and is doing God's work and says, let 00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:41.539 me walk you home. Let me keep you safe. Let me 00:21:41.539 --> 00:21:44.660 feed you. Let me comfort you. Let me give you 00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:49.609 a safe place to play. That changes things. Once 00:21:49.609 --> 00:21:52.049 I met Joy and I could see in hindsight all of 00:21:52.049 --> 00:21:55.750 this, I could see God never left me. But along 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:59.380 the way it took all those people. for me to be 00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:01.960 able to realize I'd been seen. Oh, Carmen, that's 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.680 so common. It's always hindsight. I realize that 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.000 God had never left me. I mean, how often do we 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.640 hear that? And how often have we said that? And 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.500 we've talked about that so many times in the 00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:17.000 podcast too, Deb, right? He was there all along. 00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:19.720 We just got done, I think I even made mention 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:22.720 of this last week, but we just got done studying 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.500 about Joseph in Egypt, Joseph in the coat of 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.980 many colors, and come follow me. And so many 00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:31.559 times in Genesis when it's talking about that, 00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:33.980 talking about his troubles, and it says, and 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:37.480 God was with him, and God was with Joseph, and 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.119 God was with him. And I wonder, I wonder if Joseph 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:41.900 felt like God was with him when his brothers 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:43.920 were beating him up and selling him into slavery. 00:22:44.019 --> 00:22:46.339 I wonder if Carmen felt like God was with her 00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:48.539 when she was going through the trials that a 00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:51.220 little girl just shouldn't have to go through. 00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:57.430 And God was with her. and God was with her. And 00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:00.829 in hindsight, you've been given a gift to see 00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.390 that. Not everybody accepts that gift. Well, 00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:05.430 not everybody gets that opportunity. I feel like 00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:08.210 so blessed, because a lot of people go their 00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:11.470 entire lives and they don't get that realization 00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:14.609 that I was able to get. They're unable to receive 00:23:14.609 --> 00:23:17.250 the gift, because they don't know the giver of 00:23:17.250 --> 00:23:21.470 the gift. And Carmen, you do, and that's kind 00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:27.180 of... to even use the word kind of would be inappropriate. 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.640 That's totally what has capitulated your entire 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.140 life is a relationship with him. At what point 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.460 did your relationship with Jesus Christ become 00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:39.059 personal? Not just something you were told, but 00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:41.720 something you actually knew, felt that it became 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.720 a part of you. Actually, I was dating a boy in 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.640 high school that had a really, really strong 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.200 testimony. And I remember going home thinking, 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:53.440 I want what he has. and me deciding then I'm 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.519 gonna fish or cut bait. I've got to find out 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.880 if this is true or if it's not true. And the 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.680 change, nothing, I mean, my circumstances didn't 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:08.160 change at all, not one bit. I still lived with 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:13.160 a crazy woman. I still, but my entire life changed. 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:18.890 My entire outlook changed. I had... I had a freedom 00:24:18.890 --> 00:24:22.769 and a peace I did not know existed until then. 00:24:23.150 --> 00:24:26.230 How did that come? A lot of scripture study, 00:24:26.410 --> 00:24:28.089 a lot of prayer. I mean, cause okay, so like 00:24:28.089 --> 00:24:29.809 if we go back to grade school and junior high, 00:24:29.869 --> 00:24:31.710 like I was smoking, I was drinking, I was doing 00:24:31.710 --> 00:24:36.509 all kinds of stuff. Luckily I was. I looked like 00:24:36.509 --> 00:24:38.490 a boy and I was very unattractive, so it's not 00:24:38.490 --> 00:24:40.490 like I had a lot of boys chasing me, which was, 00:24:41.269 --> 00:24:43.869 once again, a blessing I didn't know at the time 00:24:43.869 --> 00:24:46.170 was a blessing. A blessing that's hard for some 00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:47.950 of us to believe at this point in your life. 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.279 We had moved and I had decided before then, I've 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.539 gotta stop all this stuff. But I still wasn't 00:24:57.539 --> 00:24:59.859 all in. I still - How old were you approximately 00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:04.339 at this age? I was 15 then, 15, 16. And then 00:25:04.339 --> 00:25:07.759 it was another year or so when I started dating 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:10.119 this boy and I was like - So you were like a 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:11.480 junior in high school. I was a junior in high 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:14.200 school. And I was like, okay, I gotta see what 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.940 there really is to this. And so that's when I 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.259 started doing all the Sunday school answers. 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:25.880 And by gum, they work. So you obviously weren't 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.680 looking like a boy at that age because you got 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:31.859 a boyfriend. Well, all right. So obviously this 00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:34.940 relationship or this friendship with this young 00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:37.759 man who you said, and I love the way you said 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.279 that you said, I wanted what he had. You know, 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.740 that's one of the things in recovery that is 00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:47.440 so important, especially when picking somebody 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.779 like to be a sponsor or a mentor or whatever 00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:52.960 like that. It's like, I want what they have. 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:54.980 And so I'm going to listen to what they're going 00:25:54.980 --> 00:25:57.299 to tell me on how to get that, you know, and 00:25:57.299 --> 00:25:59.319 you wanted what this young man had. And I think 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.160 that you probably had some presumptions around 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:04.720 how he had gotten what he had because you had 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.240 been kind of raised in the same core belief system, 00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:10.220 right? In the church, et cetera. For me, when 00:26:10.220 --> 00:26:12.839 I was going through this, it really changed my 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:15.140 self -worth. It really changed how I looked at 00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:17.940 myself. But it took a lot of work to get there. 00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:20.940 Talk to me a little bit about what it was like 00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.900 when you began to establish a relationship with 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:26.869 the Savior. where you began to trust him, where 00:26:26.869 --> 00:26:29.630 you began to believe him, not just believe in 00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.750 him, but believe what he actually says and what 00:26:32.750 --> 00:26:35.309 he actually did. Talk to me about that. How did 00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:37.470 that come about for you? Well, I would say it 00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:40.410 came about incrementally. So like when I'm a 00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:44.750 junior in high school, I realize what the atonement 00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:46.930 can do for me, that I can be forgiven of all 00:26:46.930 --> 00:26:50.410 this crap that I've done. So it kind of starts 00:26:50.410 --> 00:26:54.869 there. And I believe I believe that I'm a literal 00:26:54.869 --> 00:26:59.210 child of God. I believe I have a savior, but 00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:03.930 it's not really, it's really not until I met 00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:07.890 Joy or had my conversation with Joy and learned 00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:12.890 that I was a product of rape and that I was so, 00:27:13.190 --> 00:27:18.049 I mean in anybody's, in anybody's argument, like 00:27:18.049 --> 00:27:22.130 I'm the first to go. I mean, that is the reality 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:24.930 of the situation. I mean, I'm at the bottom of 00:27:24.930 --> 00:27:30.170 the barrel as far as like, you know, worth. And 00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:35.329 it took learning that and then realizing that 00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:39.890 I didn't get dumped in my family. I got put exactly 00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:43.519 where I needed to be put. to get me to the life 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.519 I have now. And it really wasn't until then that 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.039 I recognized, I mean, people say like, he knows 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.480 me by name. Well, you know what? My neighbor 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.480 knows me by name, but they don't know me. And 00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.039 it wasn't until then that I realized he absolutely 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:04.019 100 % knows me and has my back and had my back 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:08.740 the entire time. It was really easy for me always 00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:14.839 to understand my relationship with Jesus Christ, 00:28:15.619 --> 00:28:20.700 but my Heavenly Father was much more distant. 00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.039 Anyway, which doesn't make sense because they're 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.579 a team. They're one and the same. They work together 00:28:29.579 --> 00:28:33.559 and it wasn't until then that I really, really, 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:38.000 really got my worth to Him. Carmen, and you were 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.740 51 years old when you met your birth mother. 00:28:42.419 --> 00:28:43.980 Half a century, took me a long time. Did you 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:48.299 look for her or did she find you? I did something 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:50.779 I said I would never do and I looked for her. 00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:57.359 Once again, that was God telling me I needed 00:28:57.359 --> 00:28:59.259 to do it. I literally woke up with a prompting 00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:02.099 that I needed to, the prompting was it's time. 00:29:02.259 --> 00:29:05.460 And I was like. It's time for what? And then 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:07.200 it's like, you know what it's time for. And I'm 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:09.259 like, how can it be time for something that was 00:29:09.259 --> 00:29:12.740 never in the timeline? And then it was persisted 00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:14.859 enough that I was like, I need to pursue this. 00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.440 And so I got on and found out my birth records 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.900 were unsealed. And they sent me a copy of my 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:24.500 original birth certificate within like three 00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.240 weeks. And then with the help of my daughter, 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:29.920 Sydney, who's a great sleuth on social media, 00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:34.170 we... We found her within, I mean, a couple hours. 00:29:35.029 --> 00:29:38.009 And by the next day, I was talking to her on 00:29:38.009 --> 00:29:40.069 the phone. And she was really funny, because 00:29:40.069 --> 00:29:42.289 at the end of our first conversation, she said, 00:29:43.150 --> 00:29:46.190 well, first off, she was very, very upset that 00:29:46.190 --> 00:29:50.190 I was placed in an LDS family. Really? Very upset. 00:29:50.450 --> 00:29:52.789 She didn't know then, it was that closed. No, 00:29:52.809 --> 00:29:56.829 her... Her two requests were that I not be an 00:29:56.829 --> 00:29:58.789 only child and that I go to a Christian household 00:29:58.789 --> 00:30:02.730 and her husband was a Reverend or preacher. I'm 00:30:02.730 --> 00:30:04.369 not sure exactly what the exact term is for, 00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:09.849 but anyway, very not happy I was LDS. Carmen, 00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:13.829 I just wanna fill in this gap because there was 00:30:13.829 --> 00:30:16.970 a time that. you know you you have somebody telling 00:30:16.970 --> 00:30:18.849 you that they'll pay for you to go to college 00:30:18.849 --> 00:30:21.710 and then you meet a guy and then you start changing 00:30:21.710 --> 00:30:23.369 your life and then all of a sudden your things 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:27.549 started unfolding at 51 but in that time frame 00:30:27.549 --> 00:30:31.490 you were married in the temple and you have four 00:30:31.490 --> 00:30:36.470 beautiful children and you raised these kids 00:30:36.470 --> 00:30:40.029 they were not little when this event occurred 00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:42.980 The reason why I want to fill in that gap is 00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:45.980 because you were still on that covenant path 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:48.519 in your belief system in where you were going 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:54.240 and what you were doing. I 100 % understood the 00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.019 role of Jesus Christ in my life and the atonement 00:30:57.019 --> 00:31:00.799 in my life. I used the atonement in my life when 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.460 Sydney was really really sick and had gotten 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:04.500 out of the hospital and I mean she was really 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.779 sick. Every day we're going to a new doctor a 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:09.440 new specialist and they're running tests and 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.440 I'm in the hall just Just beside myself like 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.259 she's this sick. Are you kidding me? Like are 00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:20.240 you kidding me? And I cried I couldn't I mean 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.259 I was probably six months that I didn't cry every 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:26.880 day in the shower At least at least I was an 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:31.480 absolute wreck and it's not because I didn't 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:35.359 have faith in heavenly father's plan or like 00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.460 it wasn't even that it was like I didn't have 00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:41.279 faith in myself to be able to deal with the if 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:46.259 she died I just I didn't know if I could if I 00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:48.920 could do that and it's one of those things that 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.680 I finally had to I had finally had to say I gotta 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.400 give it to you if she dies you're gonna get me 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.759 through it undoubtedly my favorite name for the 00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:00.519 Savior is the Prince of Peace yeah it is my favorite 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:03.900 name because he is the Prince of Peace That is 00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:08.400 where, in any circumstance, I've been able to 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.180 find peace. I have a lot of daily joy, because 00:32:11.180 --> 00:32:15.619 in my mind, joy means, joy means I am, well, 00:32:15.619 --> 00:32:18.000 I just have a lot of peace. And I have a lot 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.400 of peace because I can lay it at the Savior, 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.420 most whatever it is. Like when I was explaining 00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.400 with Sid, like that was a time I could not let 00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:28.519 it go, and I had to let it go. You know, it's 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:30.140 the karma for someone who's spent a lot of years 00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:32.279 experiencing what you've experienced and trying 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:35.579 to prove your worth. I know you, and I've known 00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:39.339 you for a very long time, and I have always been, 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.839 I have always admired the way you carry yourself, 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.440 but what did Jesus, what did Jesus Christ change 00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:51.019 about that, about the way you spent all those 00:32:51.019 --> 00:32:53.160 years trying to prove your self -worth? How did 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:59.079 Jesus change that for you? I no longer felt the 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:04.640 need to earn a spot. I think that's really what 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.660 it comes down to. Earn a spot. Earn a spot. I 00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:09.900 gave up thinking I had to earn a spot or that 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:12.720 I had to pass a test. Yeah, you talked about 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.000 that a minute ago. So at what point, so you felt 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.660 like you were trying to prove yourself, obviously. 00:33:16.660 --> 00:33:19.299 I mean, I feel like I still do in a lot of cases. 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.119 It's my go, it's my fallback. I mean, I didn't 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:23.779 walk out of that childhood without a whole bunch 00:33:23.779 --> 00:33:26.319 of insecurities. And I think that is like, I 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.319 have to catch myself all the time trying to do 00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.799 it all to earn. Yeah. Was there a point though, 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:35.140 when that kind of capitulated change shifted 00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:39.240 for you? Where you didn't really feel like you 00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:43.539 had to prove yourself? I mean, I hear you say 00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:45.680 that you still have these habits. You still have 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:48.259 these, you know, that we go back to and we all 00:33:48.259 --> 00:33:51.079 have those types of things, for sure. But they 00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:53.480 don't always have to do with our core belief 00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:56.480 system anymore. At what point did you stop trying 00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:58.099 to prove yourself or did you realize that it 00:33:58.099 --> 00:34:00.319 was no longer necessary? Honestly, it was when 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.779 I met her at 51 years old. I've been doing it 00:34:02.779 --> 00:34:05.559 till then. Explain that to me. What about that 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:09.099 meeting with her changed that for you? I just 00:34:09.099 --> 00:34:12.380 finally realized that I hadn't been overlooked. 00:34:12.900 --> 00:34:17.059 It honestly felt like God turned his back while 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:22.519 I was being dropped. And up until then when I 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:26.099 met her and I realized I was very carefully placed 00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:29.420 exactly where I needed to be, mostly so that 00:34:29.420 --> 00:34:31.800 I would have the gospel in my life, so that I 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.619 would end up with the life I have. Once I realized 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:41.980 this, I didn't have to figure out what I had 00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:46.960 to learn. It was kind of like, oh my gosh, this 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:51.760 wasn't a test. Actually, the best way I think 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.380 I know how to say it is that I finally realized 00:34:54.380 --> 00:34:58.760 I wasn't given my life as a trial. It was my 00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:01.639 biggest blessing, but it came with a trial because 00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:05.230 everything does. And that's what you mean when 00:35:05.230 --> 00:35:08.250 you talk about trying to pass a test, trying 00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:11.170 to pass that test. Up until then, I was like, 00:35:11.269 --> 00:35:12.969 and I understood the atonement, I understood 00:35:12.969 --> 00:35:15.690 these things, but I still felt like I can't. 00:35:16.170 --> 00:35:18.789 I still haven't learned what I need to learn. 00:35:20.349 --> 00:35:23.909 I still haven't proven myself. And after that, 00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:29.670 it's like, oh, there is no test. I'm loved. Carmen, 00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:33.349 for someone who felt like they'd... didn't belong, 00:35:35.010 --> 00:35:37.989 what would you say to someone who feels that 00:35:37.989 --> 00:35:40.630 now? For someone who doesn't feel like they belong, 00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:42.869 that they have just been dropped, or that they 00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:44.989 have been forgotten, or they're in that spaghetti, 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:48.980 what would you tell that person? that or maybe 00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:51.139 even that younger version of Carmen what would 00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:54.340 you tell that person that's in that belief system 00:35:54.340 --> 00:35:57.039 or that understanding now I think you you alluded 00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:59.780 to it but what what would you tell that listener 00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:03.539 that perhaps thinks that God turned their back 00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:10.539 on them that even if you can't see it he's there 00:36:10.539 --> 00:36:16.280 but that's easy to say but when you're in it 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:19.000 it's hard to feel or see, does that make sense? 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.800 100 % it makes sense to me. I don't know what 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.119 I could say that would honestly get through to 00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:29.219 them other than being the one to reach out and 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:32.019 to see them. I think that's the biggest thing 00:36:32.019 --> 00:36:35.360 that I, the biggest takeaway I wanted people 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.400 to understand when they read the book is that 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:44.139 every single life is as complex as my own and 00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:49.940 I owe you unlimited amount of respect and awe 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:56.159 and help for your journey. Is that why you're 00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.179 so generous and kind and loving and unconditional 00:36:59.179 --> 00:37:03.019 to everyone? Because I feel like that's who you 00:37:03.019 --> 00:37:09.840 are. I don't know maybe. I have had the pleasure 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.710 of knowing you for 20 almost four years. when 00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:16.469 I married into this family, and I remember a 00:37:16.469 --> 00:37:19.190 family reunion where you guys, Carmen, can dance. 00:37:19.250 --> 00:37:22.309 I'm just gonna say that. But I just remember 00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:25.610 meeting you for the first time, and I could feel 00:37:25.610 --> 00:37:29.869 your love, your acceptance, your kindness, your 00:37:29.869 --> 00:37:33.429 openness to everyone. And we go to Vegas every 00:37:33.429 --> 00:37:35.949 December to the rodeo. These are our people. 00:37:37.130 --> 00:37:40.070 And I see how she interacts with complete strangers. 00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:44.250 I hear her and she asks about our children and 00:37:44.250 --> 00:37:49.070 she has this genuine concern and love and this 00:37:49.070 --> 00:37:51.829 passion for her own children that is, and it 00:37:51.829 --> 00:37:57.190 exudes, it is absolutely, I mean it's, you can 00:37:57.190 --> 00:38:00.110 see it, it's tangible. Oh, that's sweet. Thanks 00:38:00.110 --> 00:38:02.050 for sharing that Deb, because I feel the exact 00:38:02.050 --> 00:38:04.449 same way, you know. I would honestly say that 00:38:04.449 --> 00:38:07.030 like, so I believe that like, so when I felt 00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:11.070 like I was left alone, I didn't realize that 00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:15.110 I was given a gift by Heavenly Father of optimism. 00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:19.170 I was born with this optimism. And I recognize 00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:22.690 that now as a gift. I recognize the gift of self 00:38:22.690 --> 00:38:24.730 -confidence, because I didn't need to have it. 00:38:25.710 --> 00:38:30.989 I recognize the gift of just enjoying. I love 00:38:30.989 --> 00:38:34.090 people. When I was sitting in it, it didn't feel 00:38:34.090 --> 00:38:35.690 like, well, first off, as a kid, you don't think 00:38:35.690 --> 00:38:40.650 those are gifts. but I look back now and I recognize 00:38:40.650 --> 00:38:43.949 that those were things given to me as tools. 00:38:44.969 --> 00:38:47.690 In high school, my favorite scripture became, 00:38:48.869 --> 00:38:51.329 so okay, like in seminary, they'd be like, memorize 00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:52.530 where it came from. I don't know where it came 00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:54.150 from. I was like, if I memorize scripture, why 00:38:54.150 --> 00:38:56.820 do I need to know where it came from? I'm not 00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:58.940 gonna be looking it up. And so, like, I don't 00:38:58.940 --> 00:38:59.980 know where it came from. I don't have to look 00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:01.659 it up, I have it memorized. I have it memorized, 00:39:01.739 --> 00:39:02.980 but I don't know which one it is. I can't tell 00:39:02.980 --> 00:39:04.980 you where it's at. But it was, trust in the Lord 00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:07.179 with all thy heart, lean out unto thy own understanding, 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.519 in all thy ways acknowledge him, and he will 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.610 direct thy paths. And that scripture. Like, I 00:39:13.610 --> 00:39:16.510 could just, it was a constant mantra all through 00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:18.329 high school, all through college, all through 00:39:18.329 --> 00:39:19.989 probably early years of all those little boys. 00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:23.090 You know, Carmen, I think a lot of us, we spend 00:39:23.090 --> 00:39:25.369 years just growing up and trying to prove something, 00:39:25.909 --> 00:39:30.250 that we matter, or that we belong, or even that 00:39:30.250 --> 00:39:33.329 we're enough. And maybe what your story, Carmen, 00:39:33.550 --> 00:39:37.150 shows is that we were never meant to earn that 00:39:37.150 --> 00:39:40.630 even in the first place. No, we were not. Maybe 00:39:40.630 --> 00:39:45.000 it was already true. and maybe joy doesn't come 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.760 from finally getting everything right. Maybe 00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.820 it comes from realizing we were never alone in 00:39:51.820 --> 00:39:56.800 it. That we belong to Him. And not just through 00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:00.079 the Savior, but Heavenly Father to know that 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:03.460 we are children of God. Carmen, we love you. 00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:06.699 I love you guys. We love your book. We hope that 00:40:06.699 --> 00:40:10.760 our listeners will become readers. The title 00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:13.800 of the book again is Spaghetti Lemonade and Finding 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:16.840 Joy. And it's available anywhere. I bought a 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.340 Kindle copy of it last night because I couldn't 00:40:19.340 --> 00:40:22.880 find my paper copy of it as we were preparing 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.460 for this. So it's on Amazon. It's on every place 00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:27.039 else. So please, please, please. And if you live 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:30.079 by, you can show up at my door. You get an autographed 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.440 copy. And if you live far away, let us know and 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:34.179 we'll get you an autographed copy. and mail it 00:40:34.179 --> 00:40:38.860 to you. Deb will. I have time. Thanks for being 00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:40.219 with us, everybody. We look forward to being 00:40:40.219 --> 00:40:42.360 with you again next week, and until then, be 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:42.500 well.