So, Deb, I got a question for you. It's a little
bit of an awkward question for a husband, maybe,
to ask his wife, but I need to ask this question.
I think this is something that's kind of really
important, but why are relationships so complicated?
Why are they so difficult? Some people would
even say, why are they so hard? Even, it seems
like, even when you love someone, You know even
when you're trying your very hardest doing everything
you potentially and possibly can can it inevitably
seems like Somehow things still they can break
down. You know you get hurt or they get hurt
For long you're stuck in these vicious cycles.
You don't know how to get out of You know, Gang,
if you've ever felt that, this episode's for
you. Deb, I think some of the most painful parts
of life happens inside of relationships. Yeah,
because oftentimes, the people we love are the
ones that hurt us the most. It's true. Whether
it's in a marriage, whether it's a sibling, a
parent, a child, whatever, but yeah, I get it.
relationships can be hard. The hard thing is
you know I remember going to a counselor a while
ago and they they they showed me the parent and
child the husband and wife and if a husband is
treating a wife like a child or a husband's treating
a wife like a spouse, we need to revamp it. It's
like, you know, we forget sometimes our roles
and sometimes - In relationships. In relationships,
yeah. And it's like, I have adult children and
one of the hardest things for me is to remember
I am unemployed. My children do not need parenting
unless they come to me for advice. I mean, they
don't need, they don't want my advice. I think,
you know, when I'm talking about relationships,
you know, I think the first thing that everybody
jumps to, and I would too, you know, is the relationship
that I have with you, my spouse, right? For sure,
for sure. And, you know, we have a pretty great
relationship, but, you know, we have tension
from time to time too. But this really plays
into every relationship that we have. Even sometimes,
you know, we just kind of, I think when I...
When I say we kind of do this, I probably am
just mostly talking about myself, but I discount
some of the other relationships that are probably
pretty important. I remember Jesus telling his
disciples, when thou art converted, strengthen
thy brethren. And I don't always do that. If
I'm not in a great mood and somebody cuts me
off. What about your sister? What about your
wife? That's what it's talking about. It's just
talking about everybody. But when we're talking
about having relationships, and when we're finding
them difficult, these relationships aren't just
about our spouses, or just about our kids, or
just about our work people, or just, it's every
relationship. Sure, work, neighbors. I think
it's oftentimes difficult because of I mean,
when you feel misunderstood or unseen or trying,
but you know, like, sometimes I just wanna come
home and vent and I don't want anybody to, I
don't want anybody to fix this. I just wanna
be really mad right now and I just wanna tell
you how terrible rotten this situation was. So
I want you to hear. But did I say that before
when I came home and I started venting at you?
I mean, you're like, who do I need to go kill?
I'll just get my truck right now and go take
care of it. See, this is the funny thing because
we're just kind of a little bit wired differently.
100%. And that's one of the important things
that we need to understand. But I'm wired differently.
I mean, I get that we're wired differently, but
there's some times you want me to listen to just
hear. Yeah. You don't want me to respond. And
I don't think we're wired differently in that
respect. No, or fix it or whatever. But that's
what I'm saying. But sometimes you just feel
like, and then oftentimes I want validation.
I want to tell you how I'm feeling and I want
you to validate how I feel. Now, I'm not telling
you, Scott, I'm going to tell you this right
now because I'm really frustrated and I want
you to validate why I'm so mad, or I want you
to validate why I'm so excited. And you may not
be as excited as I am about this story that I'm
telling you, or you may not want to fix the story,
or you honestly may not want to listen to this
story, truth be known. But that's the other part
of going, Kay, can you just humor me? Maybe just
listen for a minute. I think that's the difficult
part of relationships because sometimes when
I come in hot and I've got a lot of emotion,
whether it's anger, whether it's excitement,
whatever it is, I haven't given you the preface
of this is how you're supposed to respond to
this story. And I think in relationships, I think
that's kind of a given. You know what I mean?
It's like men are super simple. I mean, in general,
they don't get into the drama. And even there's
often times when some of our daughters will tell
us a story and you're like, get to the point,
get to the point. You're giving me too much information.
And I'm like, no, I want all the details. Yeah,
that is true. I don't say get to the point, get
to the point. I'm much more subtle than that.
I do it through body language. Facial expressions,
but but you said that there is my confession.
Yeah, but it's true, right? It's true It can
be for sure it can be and you know and it goes
on every side Everybody is in a situation. It
doesn't matter which side of the relationship
you're on We all are in situations where We're
vulnerable. We're just vulnerable to pain and
confusion and misunderstanding, and I think you
even said being unseen, or feeling unseen. Never
does being or feeling, or the perception of being
or feeling unseen have more impact than it does
in meaningful relationships. If I feel unseen
by people that, eh, whatever. It doesn't mean
much, at least not as much as it would to feel
unseen by somebody that I really feel like I'm
in a meaningful relationship with. Be that a
parent, a friend, a sibling, a spouse, a parent
even, right? All of those other things. Maybe
the reason the relationships are so hard is because
we're trying... to get validation or do something
horizontally that was never meant to be done
by anyone but the Savior. What do you mean by
that? Oftentimes, if I'm feeling insecure, that's
not a Scott issue. That's a Deb and God issue.
I mean, sometimes if I'm feeling sad or maybe
even And I won't even say, you know, not feeling
the spirit, because I don't always recognize
it as that. I feel not good enough. And so then
I try to find that validation through you or
my children or my parents or whatever. But I
think oftentimes we put a lot of expectations
on our physical relationships instead of relying
wholly on Jesus Christ. who is the ultimate healer
of our broken relationship. Because we've talked
about before how covenant is a relationship and
how the most important relationship is with God.
And once we exercise and we realize that, then
we can step into, you know, having a relationship
with a spouse and then having relationships with
children. And we don't understand as a child,
the relationship a child to a parent is really
until we become a parent. So I think, I think
the whole relationship is all in divine order,
you know, to help us grow and understand God's
really, our relationship with Jesus Christ and
Heavenly Father. You said something a minute
ago about something about him being horizontal.
What did you say about that? The relationships
are hard because we're trying to do something
horizontally, meaning I'm trying to find my personal
validation, my security through my spouse, my
parent, my child, whatever. Instead of through
Christ. Instead of through Jesus Christ. So,
but going back, I don't remember an episode we
did, was it in season four, maybe even in season
five, when we talked about the difference between
the horizontal relationship and the vertical
relationship, right? obviously the imagery being
the cross of Jesus Christ, right? But yeah, I
love that. And I think, when I think about that,
my relationships tend to be, as they are horizontal,
tend to be a lot more confusing, a lot more complex,
a lot more dependent on certain stimuli or response
or whatever. Outcomes, right? Just basically
outcomes. Said the outcome business. Yeah, again,
last week we talked about how important it is
to get out of the outcome business when we turn
our will and our life over to the care of God.
We really can't do that if we are dependent on
horizontal relationships to give us those things
that you were talking about. Validation, peace,
security, motivation for change, even impetus
for change, et cetera. Well, when I expect you
to feel something in me that only Jesus Christ
can, I will eventually resent you, because you
can't do it. You'll fail. And that's not just
me and you, but me and any... body else that
isn't perfect, that isn't my savior. Anybody
or anything even. Or anything, yes. And I think
that we're not gonna spend time on that, but
even our relationships with other things. For
sure. Education, social media, I mean, some of
those things can be positive, some of those things
can be terribly negative, but nonetheless, are
they a horizontal relationship or a vertical
relationship? Exactly, and where are we trying
to get our validation from? I love that, Deb.
When I think about how relationships and all
of that are at work in my life, relationships
are... arguably among the most important experiences
that I will experience in mortality, actually,
and we know this through Revelation scripture
and even before Revelation scripture, we know
this, that relationships are not only important
in mortality, they're important in eternity.
And we put a big exclamation point behind that,
and you talked about this a minute ago, as we
consistently engage in the repentance process,
which leads us to a covenant relationship. Going
along those lines, I think it's important for
me to remember that I am a daughter of a God.
I have heavenly parents who love me. And all
of our listeners are a son or a daughter of a
God of heavenly parents who love them perfectly.
I mean, divinity. It's like that's remember who
we are and whose we are. I think sometimes we
get down here in the muddle and the mess and
we forget who we really are because one day we
will all go home. He's in relentless pursuit.
He loves us. He wants us home and he wants to
take us home. I think that's such a great reminder
in the big picture, the vertical relationship,
because when we know that and we feel that, it
changes my horizontal relationships. Well, it
speaks to our identity. Yeah. And our identity
determines our destiny. Eternity. Oh, yes. Right.
Yeah. And you know, This reminds me so it's okay
first off. It's okay It's okay that our relationships
are going to be complicated that they're going
to struggle that we're going to hurt each other
I don't think we should intend to hurt each other
Etc but we are going to make mistakes in relationships
and the biggest mistakes that we're potentially
going to make in our relationships are the ones
that we That we hold dearest to us. It just seems
that that's always going to be the case Well,
we talk about, Deb, that the answer to all of
our problems when we did this with Nick and Crystal
is we approached step two from Alcoholics Anonymous
in February, in our episode in February where
we did step two, where we identified that it
is only through him, that it's only through our
Savior Jesus Christ. the higher power we identify
in AA, but it's only through him that these things
can change or these things can be made right
in our lives. And again, here we go back right
to the same scripture that it seems like we go
to every week, but this is in Mosiah, chapter
three, verse 19. For the natural man is an enemy
to God, so the natural man, that's me in complicated
relationships. That's everyone that walks this
planet. And that complicated relationship, natural
man, makes me an enemy to God. In what way? Is
an enemy to God and has been from the fall of
Adam and will be forever and ever. Unless. He
yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and
putteth off the natural man and becomeeth a saint
through the atonement of the Lord and becomeeth
as a child submissive, me, humble, patient, full
of love, et cetera. So it is only through the
atonement of Jesus Christ. that we can have these
relationships here on earth, these horizontal
relationships, have anything, have peace, have
the elimination or the conclusion of complicated
or contentious. I guess, Deb, then the answer
to all of my relationship problems is Him. It
reminds me of the serenity prayer. Um, and I'm
going to share it even though most of us know
it, but it's God grant me the serenity to accept
the things. And I always say on people, I cannot
change the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference. And I
think that's one of the most important prayers
that I say when I'm dealing with an individual
or, you know, cause again, I, I have this tendency
to be in the outcome business and quickly remember
I'm not in the outcome business. And so it's,
I think it's important to remember I can change
only me. And when I have that relationship open
and honest with God through Jesus Christ, that's
the only way I can have serenity. Grant me the
serenity. And boy, do we all want serenity in
today's world. When I'm in that vertical relationship
with Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ, it
changes how I show up in relationships. Because
I often say, Heavenly Father, let me see him
or her the way that you see him. And that has
worked for me. There's often times I put their
name in the temple and pray for them. Sometimes
if I can't pray for somebody that I'm really
mad at, I'll just put their names in the temple.
I can type their names in the prayer roll or
write it. But it's one of those things that it's
like, please help me see them. Because I know
we are all divine beings. And I think that has
been a gift for me to be able to just ask to
see that and to help me see people. differently.
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Me too. And, and I know that
you've been judged. I've been judged, you know,
and I know what that feels like. And in my mind,
it was probably worse than I, than I actually
thought it was, but, but I've judged and you
know, I know what that feels like to be on the
other, to feel like I'm on the other side of
being judged because you don't really know. You
don't really know me. How can you judge me? Well,
yet I have taken the liberty to assume that I
knew somebody well enough to judge them on the
other side. And, you know, that is just not the
behavior of our Savior. To approach a relationship
through Him the way He would, it would include
those things that you just talked about. It would
include compassion. It would include the ability
to see people differently, to see them as people
who have struggles, who have battles and wars
that I can't even see, or potentially maybe not
even imagine. It's only through him actually,
Deb, that a softening can happen in me. instead
of just reacting to certain behaviors or certain
observances or whatever, and reacting physically
or reacting inside of myself, I don't know. But
sometimes if I, not sometimes, every time that
I approach a relationship through our Savior
Jesus Christ, there's a softening that takes
place. Well, and I remember a conference talk
that said, or maybe it was just something in
the Leona, I'm not sure, but it basically said,
treat everybody as if they are going through
one of the most challenging times of their lives.
And most of the time you'll be right. You know,
oftentimes we get... privy to some of the challenges
people go through. And it's easy to have compassion
when somebody's going through challenges. But
when you don't know what somebody's going through
and they're cutting you off in traffic or they're
flipping you off or whatever. I mean, I always
play this silly little game. It's like, maybe
they just found out or their parent passed away.
Maybe their child just got in a car accident.
It's like, I really do play the what if game.
I'm not perfect at it. I believe me, but You
know, we all have crap we're going through and
it's hard. Sometimes the relationship with ourself
is hard. And I mean, then we could go down a
whole other rabbit hole on that one. And it's
like, we just need to get vertical and remember
who we are and whose we are. So where we get
triggered or whatever in any relationship, we
just need to pause before we react and taking
a hurt to the savior, pray for them. Instead
of weaponizing it or just letting go of the control,
again, back to the serenity, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change and the
people I can't change. I love the serenity prayer
for that. And you say something there, or the
people I cannot change. I gotta admit, this is
one that's difficult for me. I don't really...
own the delusion that I have the power to change
others, but I think that I see things in others
sometimes that needs to be changed and I feel
like it's my job to help them do it. You laugh.
Well, I'm not I'm not sure what you mean by that
because you've witnessed it No, I'm being serious,
you know and this this really shows up and it
used to show up more only because it was allowed
today My kids are all adults and it's not even
potentially possible like but with my kids Yeah,
right parenting gives you the illusion of control.
Yeah. How do I fix them? Yes Yeah. Well, you
stop them from running in the street, you just
save their life. Exactly. You know, so when they're
little, you are mostly in control. Yeah. I mean,
and I think that's the illusion of I can control
this. And then they get bigger and they exercise
agency. And we're stuck in the delusion. God
grant me the serenity. Or we're stuck in the
delusion of I have earned enough respect that
I should be able to control just by my suggestion.
You know what I mean? I hear what you're saying.
But honestly, that's a trigger for me because
I don't want no adult telling me how to live
my life. Whether it's my spouse or my parent.
I don't either and you know that about me, right?
That's one of the things about me that I really
struggle. I was at a meeting just the other day
introducing somebody and it was a speaker meeting
for alcoholics anonymous and I was introducing
somebody that I sponsor and the person in charge
says, stand here. wanted me to go around and
stand on the other side of the table. I said,
no, I'll just stand right here. And then I thought
afterwards, how hard would it have been for me
to just go around there and stand there. So I
get it. I don't like to be told what to do. I
don't like to be controlled either. But what's
even worse is when I'm in the outcome business
and when I'm in the outcome business and I approach
a relationship and that relationship is about
helping them Right? You can see the air quotes.
My fingers make them quotes. I'm watching you.
Helping them. Am I really helping them? If I'm
giving them advice and direction that they don't
want, that they don't maybe probably even need.
Now, by my outcome barometer, they need it. But
where am I mistaken here? You know, where am
I? And so where am I mistaken here? The problem
is, is I have actually jumped into And I hate
to say this, but I've jumped into the road that
I should be assigning to him, to the Savior.
Yeah, so you think you're gonna save him. I remember,
and I hope it's okay that I share this, sorry
Jess if it's not, but my oldest daughter when
she decided to marry, he was an only child that
had assault charges against his mother. And it
red flagged me. I told her, I said, honey there's
a difference between a red flag and a neon blinking
Vegas sign. And I said, I can't support this
marriage. And I even encouraged her to live with
him before because I knew where this marriage
was going to go. And I remember a dear friend
of mine said, Why are you getting in the way
of her experience? Why are you stepping in front
of her? Opportunity to learn and grow you're
just making her mad and I did make her mad and
she got mad and moved across the country and
she was married to this guy for 11 months and
it turned out exact well not exactly because
I honestly thought he was gonna kill her he was
he's that man scared me and I did not want my
daughter to go across the country with him And
then I just prayed like crazy that God would
protect her and it was so scary. So scary. But
I knew that God was, he was hers and that he
would protect her if it was his will. And I think
that's, that's honestly where it was because
I knew that would keep her safe if she stayed
here. But you know what? I was robbing her of
the law of agency. I was jumping in the Savior.
I was trying to be her Savior, which is ridiculous.
And I think that's what brings up the question.
The question is, is how do you do that? How do
I actually bring Christ into how I see and respond
to situations like that? Pray really, really,
really hard. How do I change from a horizontal
approach to a vertical approach? on things like
that. And as a parent, and those of us who have
been parents with kids that are over the age
of three or four understand the difficulties
that we can sometimes witness at the difficult
decisions our kids make that can sometimes bring
pain to them. Yeah. And I think the important
message, the sweetheart message in all of this
for me is in the middle of the mess, I can change
in the middle of it if I rely wholly and W -H
-O -L -L -Y, wholly, completely on him. And that's
what I had to do in this situation with my oldest
daughter. I just was terrified that this guy
was going to, I did not know if she would make
it back alive. He was abusive and he scared me.
And so when Christ is in the middle, even in
difficult relationships, it stops defining me.
So I think that's so critical for me to remember.
And some relationships may not change. It may
take 11 months, it may take 11 years, it may
take 11 decades. And it may not happen in this
lifetime. Exactly. But again, grant me the serenity
to change the things, or how does it go? God
grant me the serenity. To accept the things I
cannot change, the courage to change the things
I can, and the wisdom to know the difference
because there are things where we have no power.
However, we always have power. to turn our will
and our life over to the care of God as we understand
him, as we talked about last week. And as we,
how do we do that? How we do that is in moments
like this, in relationships. And then sometimes
in those relationships, that's where we really
get our metal tested the most. Being with us
and talking about relationships. I know this
can be a trigger for some and some of you have
got it figured out But just so you know, we don't
and we're still trying to figure it out. But
if this episode or or this resonated. You can
share it with somebody who might be struggling
in a relationship no matter what kind of relationship
it is right now or anyone that needs a little
more Jesus in their lives. We love you. We appreciate
you being with us. We feel like we have so many
friends out there and I hope you all feel our
love as we share vulnerably with you. And I love,
Deb, that you reminded us that, you know, when
Christ is in the middle, even broken relationships
can stop defining us. I'm gonna hang on to that
this week. Let that be the invitation for us
all this week. Thanks for being with us, everybody.
We'll see you again next week.