Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome out to another episode
of Redeemed Through His Blood. This is Scott
Durfey joined as always by the fabulous Debra
Durfey What's up, babe? Hello, friends. It's
good to be with you, sweetheart. I say that like
we're not together every day, but we are. I know
I love that too. I love that too. How's your
day? How's your weekend? You got something to
tell us. I know it's, well, we had a special
announcement in the family that I can't announce
yet. Oh, you can't? I don't think it's on social
media, but we're going to be a grandma again.
I'm going to be a grandma again. You're going
to be a grandpa. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think
we can announce who it is. So one of our seven
children. You don't think so? we got to go see
a really cool path that Bowen got to create up
in the mountains for a cabin. And then we got
the primary program on Sunday, which was so fun.
Actually, you know, typically the practice is
a nightmare and the program is epic smooth. It
was polar opposite. It was like our practice
was really smooth. And I was like, wow, that
really went well. And then when the program came,
those kids became rambunctious and they went
off script and everything was, would you really
call it a nightmare? I wouldn't call it a nightmare,
but it was. Definitely not. It was intense. We
had some very active children. You got to tell
the story about the little one. Oh gosh, we have
a little three year old in our sunbeams that
had her talk perfect on Saturday and she got
up there and she said it word for word perfectly.
And Sunday she got up there and she looked right
at me because I was sitting right by the pulpit
and she says, I'm gonna do it by myself. And
I said, you got this girl. And she got up there
and she started saying a prayer. About her head.
About her head. And she thanked her father for
her talk. And yeah, she just, I was like, okay,
I guess we're saying a prayer in the middle of
our primary program. It was fabulous. Yeah. Well,
those are the things you just don't forget, you
know. Oh, I do remember. I think that will not
be forgotten. Was it a video or something that
your sister and I don't remember who sent it
to us, but it was silly things that kids say
in primary. Do you remember that? Oh, I look
those things up. I think they're so fun. I think
they're absolutely pure amazing. Yeah, that's
pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool. Yeah. So the
Sabbath was amazing for me. I love primary program
as well. I haven't always been able to say that.
No, you haven't, but I've converted you. Well,
or the spirit. One or the other. Or your grandkids.
Probably that's more probably more in line with
that. You like kids more now? Yeah, for sure.
Well, I've always, yeah, since I've had grandkids.
I like kids more. Yeah, you're right. It's true.
Yeah. Yeah, but we I think we actually talked
about going to Little Lucy's primary program
at the deaf ward. It was so secret. We have a
little kind of adopted granddaughter. Not officially.
Not officially, but it's official as far as we're
concerned. She's deaf, and we got to go to her.
She's also three, right? Or is she four now?
She's four now. Yeah, that's right. She just
had her birthday not that long ago. But that
was amazing. The spirit there was just blow away.
Amazing to me. We had a great episode last week.
Nick and Crystal. I mean, I've already got comments
galore. People are listening to them from literally
all over the world, you know, and and. I think
it's just super cool, Dub, when we can. find
a story or when this well we all have stories
like that and even in ourselves but when those
stories help inspire us to to be more to do more
to maybe try just a little harder to be aligned
a little better you know with the blessings that
come from Christ's atonement and what a great
story yeah and listening to it man it makes the
atonement of Jesus Christ come alive yeah it's
like wow that really is tangible in your life,
and how things that were unfixable, that they
thought were beyond repair, and how the Lord
just stepped in. I loved that Nick said, Jesus
likes to get his hands dirty. And I just thought,
of all the places he's been, he probably knows
that. Because he's allowed Jesus to really come
into his life. And Crystal being so obedient
and so gentle and so doing everything she could
with those kids. That was just such an amazing
story. If you haven't heard it yet, push pause
right now. and go back and listen to that one.
It's a must. Yeah, that is definitely one that
you should definitely listen to. Well, definitely
listen to before you listen to this one because
we're actually going to some of the things that
we're going to be talking about today are going
to be spun off from that exactly. So it'd be
helpful if you haven't to do that. The month
of November always has me reflect. and kind of
focus on gratitude and Thanksgiving. It's a gratitude
month. I don't know why I wait till November
to focus on that, but I do. I try to remember
gratitude throughout the year, but it seems like
it's a lot more boiling to the surface. You cut
yourself short. You focus on gratitude a lot.
I have a front seat to it. You focus on gratitude
a lot. In fact, you encourage a lot of people
around you to focus on gratitude a lot. Maybe
you're just hypersensitive to it this month.
And I think that happens probably to some degree
to all of us. Well, hopefully. Maybe it doesn't
happen to all of us. But you know, this is a
month of reflection, a month of Thanksgiving.
Yeah, and I'm definitely one that loves the holiday
season. I think Halloween's wonderful. I think
October's fun and the fall colors are fabulous.
And I like to just kind of push a pause and a
be still moment before Christmas because I think
Christmas gets sometimes a little too loud and
and commercialized by and that's my choice. I
mean, I do it for I do it. because I have so
many kids and I want to just make sure everybody's
happy. I think for me, reflecting and pushing
pause this month, it's good for me to just kind
of slow down and keep things simple, keep things
calm, keep things, be still and know that I am
God. And gratitude puts me there really fast.
Interesting how that works. It's one of the things
too, and we've talked about this a lot, we'll
probably continue to, but it's one of those things
that in everything in life, I always go back
to my experience in recovery and the rooms of
recovery and stuff like that, but that's one
of our first go -tos. When something is disturbed
in me, that was one of the first things my sponsors
would teach me is, have you made a gratitude
list? They have a lingo that they say if you
have an attitude, try gratitude. I still use
it. But it's true. Being grateful is one of the
things that really take us away from ourselves.
It's true. It's true. And there's been times
that when I was working with a sponsor and she's
like, hey, you need to go with a gratitude list.
And I'm sarcastic and angry about her gratitude
list. And I'm like, well, I'm grateful for a
flushing toilet. Like, I just would get almost
angry gratitude. But as soon as I keep writing
and writing and writing, it soon shifts. Yeah.
Yeah. Telling on myself again. I actually had
a young man who's in recovery reach out to me
today, you know, cause that gratitude list is
a lot of times. a part of a person's what we
call dailies. You know, Nick talked about dailies
a lot in the podcast last week, how he did a
lot of writing, you know, and his communion and
communication and conscious contact with God,
how important that is. And I had a young man
today reach out to me and about. Well, we were
at lunch together. So I got this text while we
were at lunch and he says, I didn't do my dailies
till lunch. It feels so much different when I
ask God to drive me through my day. I feel myself
being kinder almost instantly to the people that
I communicate with. Haha, silly, but I wanted
to share God is so awesome. I'm so grateful for
Jesus. It's interesting how gratitude will rip
me right out of myself and put me right back
into the spirit because You know, David taught
me this and he learned it from somebody at the
MTC that gave a talk or something and I could
go back and look it up. But gratitude is the
beginning of desire. When I have a deep gratitude
or when I'm fostering or cultivating my gratitude,
like you were just talking about, then I have
a deeper desire to be more aligned. Like this
young man said, I feel myself being kinder almost
instantly. And who doesn't need more kindness?
It's so true. I know I do. It's so true. I know
I do. I'm going to pull gratitude into December
and January and February and March and April.
Like you always do, like I already said. Getting
back to Nick and Crystal's episode from last
week, Deb, that's one of the great stories that
I've ever heard around forgiveness. And when
I say around forgiveness, you think, oh, well,
yeah, she really did forgive him. And there's
more to that story than just that. He forgave
himself. And all of that is a forgiveness or
is forgiven through Christ's atonement to all
involved. as far as long as they align with those
blessings that come with it, right? Right. They
just are such a great example of, you know, getting
out of the way and letting, you know, God be
in charge. They're really good at that. Yeah.
You know what, though? Forgiveness isn't always
a reunion story. And that's the thing we want
to I want to kind of emphasize today is that
just. But forgiveness isn't always gonna be butterflies
and cupcakes. It's not always gonna turn out
Nick and crystal -like. You know what I mean?
It's not always, in fact, I don't know if it's
more rare or not rare, it would be anecdotal
for me to even guess, but I think that often
times, When we hear stories like that, and then
when our experience doesn't align like that,
then we think, oh, we must be doing something
wrong. And I don't ever want anybody to feel
that way. Because forgiveness is really, sometimes
it happens privately, sometimes there's no restoration,
sometimes there's not even an apology, sometimes
there's absolutely no evidence that the person
even cares. And so how do we deal with that?
And I want to talk that's what I want to talk
about I mean that's what we want to talk about
today is is that you know and evidence that the
No apologies and no evidence that the person
even cares, you know forgiveness is less about
excusing the offender Deb and more about unlocking
your own Chains or unlocking our own chains through
Jesus, you know, I I have pictures to go with
those words because I think there was a very
long time that I felt victimized and just I mean
you know I could tell you the story and and you
would probably agree with me that I I was you
know that wasn't fair that wasn't right and I
I held on to that for so long to the point that
the resentment was was intense that it was like
I resented so bad and I remember sitting in a
meeting one time and they they talked about resentment
and it's like you know you you drink this poison
and you hope that other person dies and I just
pushed pause for a second and I was like that
is exactly what I'm doing I am drinking this
toxic toxic drink or or ingesting these toxic
thoughts and this person doesn't even know or
care what they have put me through or what I
have endured because of their choices. And I
just thought, why am I giving them that much
power? It was, it was a really big shift for
me to take my power back is basically And I loved
in here where it says, unlocking your own chains
through Christ, because he's the one that unlocked
that. You know, it's like, okay, I'm not going
to give this person any more power to destroy
me or to make me feel resentful. but I'm gonna
let the Savior carry this burden, and I'm gonna
give it to Him. And there were times I had to
put this person's name in the temple, because
I couldn't pray for them, you know, pray for
your enemies, pray for those who spitefully use
you. I had a big story. And I definitely, you
know, I wanted them to die. You know what I mean?
I mean, that sounds so brutal, but that's how
I felt. And I'm like, you know what, they're
a child of God. You know what? I'm going to give
them to God because they're His. It was the softening
that happened when I could write the name on
the prayer roll and then eventually I could start
praying for them. How did you come to that point
though where you could start praying for them?
You know what? Last week when Crystal was talking
about how it was just such a hard thing and I'm
not a hater. That's the thing. That's true about
you. I just don't hate. And to have that kind
of feeling inside of me was torturous because
I don't hate. And I think I had this internal
turmoil that I just had to let go of the tornado
inside of me. And when I was able to from my
heart and not make me physically sick, be able
to say, oh God, please forgive them. Please forgive
them. I mean, as much as it hurt me, they'd have
to be hurting too. And it was a painful process
of years of hard things. And did it fix the wrong?
It didn't necessarily fix the wrong, but it changed
my heart. It 100 % changed my heart. And I think
that's the piece that was the miracle of it all
because even when I think this is the lowest
I'm going to get, something else would happen
and kick me while I was down. And I was like,
Oh, no, why is this happening? Why I'm doing
everything I can. And I, I, I think it was, you
know, the Lord's way of saying, Deb, you got
this, you know, you. You've got this. Yeah. And
what that really means is, Deb, you've got this.
Deb, I've got this and you need to let me have
it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was really a letting
go for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure of
that. Well, when it comes to forgiveness like
so many other things. It's like, okay, so what
does that exactly look like? You know, forgiveness.
But I guess before even we dive into that. There
are just so many things that every single one
of us bump up against that's going to require
us to exercise forgiveness towards somebody at
some point in our lives. It just happens all
the time. I mean, you look around us right now
and there's so much turmoil and anxiety and everything
else that's going on, not just in the world,
but in families. Satan has the adversary, the
enemy, has infiltrated families. Now, even some
of the best families that I know, even our family,
you know, we get infiltration from time to time.
And there are miscues and missteps and little
offenses taken and sometimes they're not intended
to be offenses and sometimes they actually are.
But forgiveness seems to be kind of the key to
finding peace among all of that. I think it's
like Nick said last week, you know, Jesus likes
to get his hands dirty and I think we just need
to be more willing to say, you know, this is
bigger than me, I can't do this. I'm going to
listen, I'm going to pray and meditate and I'm
going to follow what you ask me to do and I'll
make the steps but I cannot, I can't fix this.
It's bigger than me. But I know you can. And
I think that having that faith knowing that he
literally can is such a game changer. In the
Divine Gift of Forgiveness, the book by Elder
Anderson, he talks a lot about this. In fact,
doesn't he dedicate a whole chapter to it, Deb?
Yeah, in chapter 21, it's titled, Forgiveness
Through Forgiving. So forgiveness through forgiving.
So that seems to tell me that in order for me
to be forgiven, I need to forgive too. Sure does.
That's the piece that made me want not to be
resentful. I was like, gosh, I have got plenty
that I need to be forgiven for. I got to forgive.
Yeah. So time out, you had stuff you needed to
be forgiven for? Oh yeah, a hundred percent.
So are you then maybe suggesting that we all
can be, I hate to use this word, victims, but
we can also be all be... Victimizers. Perpetrators.
Perpetrators, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not all of
us are perfectly kind and perfectly loving and...
Not all of us? Do you know any of us who are?
No. Okay, I didn't do that. No, I mean even the
nicest human that we think is... I don't know,
my grandma Durfee was probably there. Your dad
was pretty close too. But in that chapter though,
I love how he sometimes uses this teaching method
that sometimes in order for us to really learn
what something is, we need to know what it's
not. And I think this really applies a great
deal when it comes to talking about forgiveness,
because I think that we can not pretend, but
we can trick ourselves into thinking that we're
actually participating in forgiveness by doing
certain things that aren't really forgiveness.
For example, forgiveness is not pretending that
something didn't happen. No. Right? Correct.
It's not necessarily well, it's not at all trusting
somebody again just automatically because of
an apology or a whatever Forgiveness isn't even
reconciliation No, it isn't. I mean you can be
reconciled with no forgiveness Right. Yeah for
sure Forgiveness a lot of us have to be reconciled
without forgiveness What do you mean by that?
That means that? you know, sometimes we get offended
or something happens and we never get it. Some
nobody, I mean, nobody will say I'm sorry. Yeah.
And that's not their job to because so I can
forgive. Yeah. It is not my job to wait for,
for the apology for me to forgive. Well, and
that's one side of the reconciliation coin. The
other side of the reconciliation coin is this,
you know, somebody offends me, they apologize
to me, I say, oh, no problem, you're forgiven.
And then I continue to harbor resentment and
to talk bad about them and to hold all kinds
of bad feelings towards them. That doesn't feel
like forgiveness either, right? Even though reconciliation's
there, that's just not, also just not forgiveness
either. So, forgiveness doesn't mean I'm weak.
If I forgive somebody of something, that doesn't
mean I'm weak. You're looking at me like, well,
it doesn't even occur to me that that would be
an issue, Scott. Yeah, the Savior forgave, hanging
on a cross. Yeah. I mean, His perpetrators nailed
Him, beat Him, spit upon Him. I mean, they...
I know, but what I'm talking about, the kind
of forgiveness I'm talking about is, as a dad,
somebody offends my family, hurts my family in
some way. It doesn't show weakness for me not
to retaliate. Forgive for me to forgive them
doesn't mean I'm weak. I got a hundred stories
about this. Do you remember the story of? the
Amish people when they There was a shooter. I
can't remember if it was Ohio or Pennsylvania
exactly where exactly I'd have to look it up
But a shooter shooter goes in and kills five
little schoolgirls in an Amish schoolhouse Just
goes crazy. I mean, you know akin to the same
kind of garbage that we see today that happened
in 2006 They show up the Amish people the family
they show up at the shooters funeral the shooters
funeral told that somebody among the Amish people
that had actually saved her from suicide their
forgiveness because she didn't know what to do
with it the mother of the of the perpetrator
the mother of the shooter didn't know what to
do with all this but the Amish the the people
in that little schoolhouse and in that community
were able to Extend forgiveness. There was a
big newspaper article about, you remember that?
2006, I know. But what an example of forgiveness.
So you contrast that with the belief that, you
know, the cowboy, the Yellowstone type of belief
that, you know, an eye for an eye, a tooth for
a tooth, you hurt my family, I'm going to hurt
you, that kind of thing. I mean, so when we say
forgiveness isn't weakness, It's not weakness.
In fact, it may be a demonstration of some of
the greatest strength that I've ever seen. For
sure. In this book, the Divine Gift of Forgiveness,
in this chapter we just talked about, he says
forgiveness is not forgetting. But remembering
in peace says forget forgiveness is putting more
faith in Jesus Christ and his Atonement and his
time and in his way His love and sacrifice for
us will take away our pain and heal our souls
as we wait upon his his healing, remembering
how unjustly the Savior of the world was treated.
We move forward with faith, believing that in
this world or the next, God will generously and
justly bless all those who have been treated
unjustly. It's like, wow, that's a pretty powerful
God. Like he's going to make the wrongs right.
And that's the piece that it's like, it may not
feel like that in this life. But you know what?
I know I'll have it in in the next life or I
you know, I will find that peace So how do you
come to that though? I mean, I think it's faith.
I really do. I agree But that's a question that
everybody's asking themselves, you know Scott
and Deb you make it sound so easy You know, here's
this cute little and I don't I don't mean I mean
no disrespect But here's this cute little story
about Nick and crystal and it all worked out
roses and butterflies and gumballs and decades
of work though Yeah, but there's been a lot of
decades of work that just never pan out for people
to and and you know what? You can thank Heavenly
Father for that because sometimes you have to
thank God for unanswered prayers too. Do you
have the faith to not be healed? Right. Kind
of idea. Right. It's those kinds of things that,
you know, we just have to trust that we're not
in charge and trust that God knows. When He lives
in an eternal now and He can see our ending and
He knows how everything's going to work out.
You know, I have a big magnet on the fridge.
that says, not to spoil anything, but in the
end, everything's going to work out. It's like,
you know what? It'll all work out. And if it's
not worked out, it's not the end. Well, right.
And here's the other thing. I don't think God's
up there going, I'm going to pick you to have
a happily ever after, and I'm going to pick you
to not have a happily ever after. He is in the
details. He knows our lives. He knows our struggles.
He knows our pains. He knows them. And if we
push push pause, in fact, I've done this numerous
times, push pause in my life, and I look back
at how he showed up in my life, it's way easier
to see it in my past than even in my current,
in the now, because I'm like, holy father, my
primary program kinda went south. Like, not really,
but. It was perfect, but yeah. I know. But I
mean, it's just like one of those things that
you question in the now. But sometimes when you
look back, you go, you know what, he was in the
details and everything worked out absolutely
perfect. Just exactly. I learned what I needed
to learn. I, you know, I, I mean, there were
challenges that I went through the same ones
over and over and over to the point that it's
like people would look at me, counselors to be
exact and say, do you have your head on straight?
Do you have, you ever thought about this to the
point that it's like, you know what? I probably
should. you know, really kind of reflect and,
and look, because I was such a hard follower
of not breaking up an eternal family. And, you
know, the counselor, you know, would say to me,
have you ever considered divorce when I was married
to my first husband, because of the things that
we were going through? I was like, no, you know,
I'm here to have an eternal family. That wasn't,
that wasn't, that wasn't what God wanted for
me. As much as I wanted it, as much as I prayed,
as much as I was trying to make it all work out,
that's not, in the end, that is not what God
wanted. So you say it's faith. Yeah. And that
faith didn't just come. You didn't just wake
up one day and say, okay, I'm going to have faith
now. No, it's a muscle. Well, it's a relationship,
right? 100 % relationship. Yeah. But a relationship
is a muscle. Exactly. It comes out of nurturing
and time well spent and time together and time
listening and time in communion and and all of
that other stuff and then it comes no other way.
Yeah. Right. I think the trust, I mean, the faith
part is, you know, when you're when you're begging
and pleading and you're just like, I don't even
know where to step next. I don't even know how
to feel. Yeah. You know, and you just have those
little tiny glimpses of direction. It's like,
okay, you know, I would love to have that. And
I have had, but to have that daily get up and
turn right, turn left, stand up, jump down, you
know, those kinds of things that would be just
absolutely clear. But God doesn't want me to
do life that way. You know, it's just, I don't
know. You always want to. a rule book or a map
to follow, but then if you really had one, you
wouldn't do it anyway. I wouldn't do it anyway.
Yeah, sure. I don't think any of us would. I
have a clip here I want to play. This is from
Elder Anderson's talk from October, this past
conference, October 20th, 25th General Conference.
It's called The Toning Love of Jesus Christ.
The powerful compassion of the Savior in forgiving
sin and in healing the wounds caused by the sins
of others is a most miraculous manifestation
of the love of God. My desire is to offer hope
for those seeking forgiveness for very serious
sins and to offer comfort to those seeking healing
from the anguishing wounds caused by the serious
sins of others. Healing and forgiveness are each
found in their fullness in the atoning love of
Jesus Christ. The powerful compassion of the
Savior in forgiving sin and in healing the wounds
caused by the sins of others is a most miraculous
manifestation of the love of God. So what you're
talking about is a manifestation of the love
of God, and you felt that, didn't you? 100%.
Absolutely, I did. Yeah, what a contrast to what
it would have been if you had hang hung on and
I know we're talking about a situation But I
know that there's been multiple situations in
all of our lives some some big some small perhaps,
you know, and maybe Deb maybe Some of our listeners
have had some atrocities that just weak we can't
even understand. Absolutely And a lot of hard
in the world. Yeah lot of really hard things
people are going through and burdens that they're
carrying on their shoulders, and it's like please
Take it to the foot of the cross take it to Jesus
I love Take it to the foot of the cross. That
is so appropriate. And it reminds me of one of
our favorite go -to scriptures that we talk about
so frequently, Alma chapter seven, right? So
this even applies to our being able to forgive.
And he shall go forth, Jesus shall go forth,
suffering pains and afflictions and temptations
of every kind. So pains and afflictions, even
holding resentment and harboring pain and hatred
and stuff like that. That can be one of those
afflictions. That can be one of those, part of
those pains, and it can be a temptation. So when
we, I think it's so easy when we read these types
of scriptures that we just dial in on, he died
for my sins, he died for my sins, he died for
my, and it's important that we know that and
that he did that. But maybe above all things,
and maybe not above all things, but it's extremely
important, but also it's important that we understand.
that he's interested in not just our sin but
our pains and our afflictions and our temptations
of every kind and this that the word might be
fulfilled which saith that he take upon take
a take upon him the pains and sicknesses of his
people and he will take upon him death that he
may loose the bands of death which bind his people
and he will take upon him their infirmities that
their bowels may be filled with mercy According
to the flesh that he may know according to the
flesh how to sucker his people according to their
infirmities I think for sure that those who have
perpetrated or or that's that seems kind of like
such a legal word, but those who have Ended even
offended me who have done things to me that have
been an offense big big ones small ones even
in between ones all of them that that those are
infirmities that even Christ paid for. He died
that I would be able to be even free from the
bondage of that self -proclaiming story. Right,
Dev? Absolutely. I mean, because it's so easy,
and I don't ever want to sound like I'm perfect
in this, because I'm definitely not. And I also
don't ever want to sound like I don't understand
when people find it extremely difficult to let
go of resentments and so on. But I do know that
when it happens, as miraculously as it may be
for some people, that greater joy is rare to
be found. It's true. Anywhere, right? It's true.
Anywhere. It's true. You have a heart that changes.
And, you know, there's things that I'm working
on right now that, you know, we've recently had,
you know, some things where I've had to literally
let go of some resentments that I've had towards
an individual that has, you know, pulled my family
apart. In a lot of ways that's been really really
really painful. I don't know I I know that I'm
not the only one with challenges I know for a
fact I'm not and I know that there's a lot of
really hard things and big stories that are going
on out there that are destroying families relationships
and and hurting and harming and you know so many
people but I love in that scripture when it says
that he's taking on the Temptations and afflictions
of every kind, every one of them. There's not
one that's left out. I think about, you know,
the moms of these, you know, perpetrators that
murder or that go and do all of these things.
How hard that must be as a mom or a wife or a
sister or a friend of somebody that I would never
have guessed that my son, friend, whatever. or
daughter would ever do such a thing and what
devastating, you know, like that, the mom of
that murderer, how devastating that must be and
that to carry that burden, but to know Christ
suffered for that to every kind. And for those
that were innocently murdered, you know, it's
like, I just, I really can't comprehend it. And
I know I keep repeating it. over and over, but
it's so big for me to be able to comprehend.
It's big, but it's important, right? It is so
important. But it's big, and when it's big, it's
not something that we should expect to be able
to accomplish in a sitting or in a day or in
a week or in a, I don't know, maybe even in a
lifetime for some things, but it is something
that as we turn to Him, I love that you said
faith. How did you do it? I did it through faith.
Faith is that relationship that you established
that I have with my Savior, with my Heavenly
Father, with the Holy Ghost. That's the kind
of faith that allows, again, remember the administrator
of the atonement of Jesus Christ is the Holy
Ghost. So when I'm filling the Holy Ghost, I
can know a lot of things. One of them is that
I'm being forgiven of my sins, and that's important.
The other one is that I can know that I am being
tempered. To have my will be better aligned with
his you know I've had situations where I've had
to extend where I've had the opportunity to extend
Forgiveness to others on some pretty deep painful
stuff right and And what I found was in the beginning
I couldn't even begin to pray for them for their
forgiveness I couldn't even I couldn't even I
had no desire to Reach out to forgive And that
was really difficult for me because I knew I
needed to be. I had read the Beatitudes. I knew
Jesus Christ's life. I've read the Book of Mormon.
I have a testimony. I understand a lot of things
along those lines. But what I couldn't understand
is why couldn't I just let it go? Why couldn't
I just extend forgiveness? And I heard you saying
stuff along these lines, and I'll bet you did
the same thing. But for me, I had to pray for
even the willingness to be I had to pray that
my heart would be softened and I and you know
what? I am thinking now as I'm saying this this
has been on more than one occasion That I've
had to do something along these lines, but I've
had to pray for even just a willingness to forgive
I don't think it's possible without faith. I
really don't I really think it's impossible without
faith because we're in we're in this world that
our problems and challenges are bigger than us
and That's by design. We're in a fallen state
we're in a fallen world and we The thing of it
is is we have to be saved. Well, we need a Savior
We're talking about the doctrine of Christ in
this podcast the first principles in ordinance
of the gospel or first faith in the Lord Jesus
Christ in the Lord Jesus Christ Second repentance
which is turning to him faith in him now turn
to him. Yeah. Yeah Right and and and develop
and the interesting thing to me is those things
are really one in the same because as I'm as
I'm Learning to have faith in him. That is me
turning to him. Yeah because I'm developing a
relationship with him. And this is where, you
know, we really begin to talk about faith and
faith of power. There's a real power that comes
from faith as we exercise faith, as we cultivate
our faith in these types of things. You remember
the story of Kori Tembu? Yeah, do you want to
can you tell it or do you want me to tell it
cuz I so I? Remember I don't think I'll have
all of the details. I don't I could have crazy
story I could have read it I guess in preparation,
but it just anyway Corey Tim boom and her family,
I think, but at least her sister were prisoners
of war. I want to say, I'm not going to say,
but in one of the big prisoner of war camps in
Nazi Germany, she was Jewish. Her family was
Jewish. They were there in one of the worst concentration
camps in all of Germany. She survives it. difficult
for her to survive it, but she survived it. Her
sister didn't. Well, and that's the thing is
she actually saw a guard kill her sister. And
I don't know how it happened. I'm sure it was
ugly. You know, this is evil at its lowest, at
its darkest moments. You know, these people,
these... people who are being exterminated by
this hateful race of people and here's this big
rough, gruff guard. And I can't even imagine
it. I'm sure the unimaginable took place in those
places, right? Anyway, many years goes by. Cory
survives all of this. She just survives all of
it. But she came out of this and she had an awakening
She was in the process in my opinion is she was
in a process of this awakening during the entire
internment into these Concentration camps etc.
But when she came comes out she becomes kind
of inspirational loving type of I want to help
people learn to motivation. Yeah, but I don't,
when I say a motivational speaker, it almost
cheapens what I think she did. You know what
I mean? It was more than that. It was a life
-changing, soul -changing type of experience.
Anyway, one time she was asked to speak and she
spoke. And when she got done with, when she got
done speaking, she came down like she always
did and shook hands with people in the audience.
And she reaches out her hand and this man takes
her hand. And it was the guard that killed her
sister. Hatred, she said, just absolutely surged.
Absolutely surged through her whole body. And
then she said, in her mind, she said, and I do
have this quote, she said, Jesus, I can't forgive
him. Give me your forgiveness. Here she is. She's
come face to face with the man that reaped hell.
like untold on her family and killed her sister
in front of her. And now she's face to face with
him in a handclasp shaking his hand. She reaches,
actually wasn't shaking hand, then she reaches
out her hand and they shook hands. And I don't
know how the rest of it went, but later she was
questioned, so how did this forgiveness come?
How were you able to find the power to forgive
him? And she said that the power didn't come
from her, but it came through her. And that's
how it has to happen, I think. I think that's
how it has to happen for me. For me, it's remembering
my powerlessness. I'm literally powerless. And
it's only through him that I have any power.
Even my very breath, like literally my very breath
is his, because of him. Deb and I came up with
a few steps here. We don't normally do this,
but this is something I think that as we kind
of wrap up tonight that can be helpful. And these
can be modified. Again, these are not doctrine.
But when it comes to these kinds of things, we
just sometimes, we just felt like maybe if we
had a couple of things that we could use as anchors
to kind of help prod us along, give us a pattern
or something to use as we approach our efforts
to forgive. I think, Deb, it's really important
that the first thing that we do is we are honest
about what's going on. about how we're hurting.
I think we need to be honest about it. I don't
think we should downplay it. I think that it's
important. It is important that we acknowledge
and name what it is that we're going through.
Yeah, and then tell Christ exactly what the injustice
was. Give him the facts. Don't clean it up. Just
say, I was hurt. It was unfair. It's not right.
I was doing, you know, whatever, but give him
the facts. Why? I think for me... I mean, he
already knows. Right, but I think for me, saying
it out loud was healing, and writing it down
was healing. I was able to get it out. Honestly,
I'm a stuffer of feelings. I don't really express.
lot of how I'm feeling I've I've learned to kind
of just stuff it and When I start talking out
loud a lot more things come out of my mouth Yeah
for sure and then when I start writing down More
emotions will come and more things will come
out of my hand sometimes and even my mouth So
I think I think it's important to tell Christ
Exactly what the injustice was so number three
would be and I mentioned this earlier Sometimes
we just have to ask for the desire to forgive
Not the forgiveness itself yet, but just the
desire to forgive. Well, and just to go back
to, you know, the beginning, we were talking
about gratitude. We don't have the desire. Maybe
try gratitude because it is the beginning. That's
exactly right. Good point. The other thing is,
is, you know, and we just said it, Cory 10 Boom.
Lord, give me your forgiveness. I love that.
She didn't ask for her to forgive. She asked,
Lord, give me your forgiveness. Yeah, we know
he's got it. And then invoke the atonement specifically,
the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus, take this
from me. You already suffered for it. You already
bled drops of blood for this. Jesus, please take
this from me. You know, just like, you know,
when he said father. Right. You know, I think
about that when he just prayed more earnestly.
Well, in the garden, in the garden, when he said
Abba, right? That's a, the translation of Abba
is way more intimate than father. It's more like
daddy. Yeah. You know, yeah. And you're right,
it's that kind of relationship that we need to.
Yeah. to recognize and establish. Well, and not
just have that relationship, but believe and
trust that that relationship will heal. So number
five is just be aware of the small, surprising
little drops of compassion that are going to
come. I go back to that text that I got. I feel
myself being kinder almost instantly. today,
you know. And again, that was because of gratitude.
So this is all doing those things that allow
the instruments of grace, the Holy Spirit, to
be at work in our lives, babe. It seems so trite
sometimes, and it's a lot harder than it sounds.
Yeah. But man, it works. Yeah. And sometimes
it is harder than it sounds. Yeah, you know,
yeah, I mean this and I think there's layers
of forgiveness too I think number six is forgive
again when the resentment returns that is a big
one for me because it's like It's but if it returns
did you really forgive? Yeah, but yeah. Yeah,
you did. Yeah, you did in that moment It's that
it's that layering I and I always refer to it
as an onion I know a lot of people do but the
more you get to the core of it the more your
eyes water It's hard. I mean, it's like it's
it's a lot of emotion. And right now, sometimes
just the outer layer needs to be pulled off and
be forgiven. And then eventually I can go to
the next layer into the next layer. But just
be aware that the deeper you go into those layers,
the more tears come out and the more cleansing
that happens and the more And the more full of
the spirit we are because of it. And that's where
the healing and all that comes from. I know that
God sometimes doesn't heal our heart. Sometimes
He gives us a whole new heart. And we have to
just realize that sometimes that heart work is
hard and it's painful and it's uncomfortable.
And just like I always say, no growing in the
comfort zone, no comfort in the growing zone.
If you're uncomfortable, you get to grow. It's
like what do I get to learn from this experience?
Because gosh dang it. It's hard. Yeah, it is
Uncomfortable it is it is but if we think about
some of our greatest times in our lives when
we had some of the most Impactful things that
have taught us some of our biggest lessons. It's
when we're uncomfortable But I mean I may suggest
this done. You say it's uncomfortable and you
say it's hard and it is But what's harder? holding
on to the resentment and living with the kinker
or walking through and allowing Christ to heal
us. I mean, it requires effort. And I realize
that they're both work and they're totally different,
work of a totally different kind, but the one
work cleanses us, the other work. Creates even
greater distance not between just us and the
spirit Which disallows me to have the fullness
of joy that I'm seeking in my life But also it
creates a distance between me and others because
there's a callousness that comes about from that
It's true and it causes dis ease in us No doubt.
No, I mean we're not gonna have desire. We're
not gonna have Gratitude we're just it's gonna
be very very uncomfortable and I've been there
too I mean the thing of it is, is I know what
both feels like and I know which one I prefer,
but it took me a lot of years to figure that
out and to remember that. This is a big topic
and it's one I think that it's really difficult
to get to do justice to in a 45 minute or one
hour podcast or In a talk from an apostle even
or whatever. This is a life for me This has been
and maybe I'm a little short here, but this has
been a lifelong pursuit for me And when I say
lifelong, as long as I have been aware of this,
this hasn't been something that I've been trying
to work on all my life. But since I got sober
27 years ago, this has been an important part
because I can't harbor resentments. Resentments
will drive me back to my addiction. Resentments
will drive us all back to participating in things
that we don't like to participate in because
it makes it so we can have the spirit in our
life. And I need to have the spirit of my life.
When I forgive somebody, forgiveness isn't saying
that the past doesn't matter. It's not saying
that. What it's saying is that Jesus Christ matters
more. And as long as I remember what I'm told
to do in section six of the Doctrine and Covenants
and look unto him in every thought. Every thought.
If he's constantly on my mind, if I'm thinking
about him every day, if I'm making efforts every
day to get him in my life so that I can have
the spirit in my life, then this starts to work
for me. And I don't know how. That's the miracle.
That is the miracle. I don't know how. And I
think that's the gift of partaking of the sacrament
every week. That we have that promise that they
may always Not sometimes but always have his
spirit to be with them. I love that always I
love the absolutes Yeah, I love those absolutes.
Yeah. Yeah, I Mean, it's like I always I want
his spirit to be with me always I just want to
align with him and have that relationship with
him so that I can find and feel peace I don't
know who it is among us that is struggling, but
surely it's some of us. And maybe it's all of
us to some degree. This seems to be a pretty
ubiquitous experience in the human experiences,
having resentment, having offenses, and so on.
And so, you know, maybe we could just encourage
each of our listeners. this week to just think
of one person that they're still holding and
holding maybe I'm going to put it this way that
they're holding emotional hostage. They're holding
them emotional hostage. And maybe we could just
ask Heavenly Father through Jesus and by the
power of Jesus and through the Holy Ghost for
the desire to forgive. Not force it, but just
maybe throw it out there. And use His forgiveness.
And if you don't think you're ready, maybe pray
to be ready. bring a desire to him, and he will
consecrate it. I promise that every time we do
that, eventually we do receive spiritual relief
through him. He doesn't solve all the problems,
but we do receive spiritual relief as we try
to put in, I'm just gonna call them steps, but
those six things into place, we do begin to fill
them. Anyway, Glad you're all with us today.
Thanks for being there wherever you are. However,
you're feeling we hope you feel welcome here
You know Jesus like we always say this but he's
not waiting for you to clean everything up before
you come to him He just wants a little bit of
effort from us. Yep He meets us in our mess and
we all have mess We're in this fallen world.
He meets us in our fall. That's where his grace
shines the brightest. So come as you are Broken
torn battered hopeful questioning searching you
truly are not alone and thanks for being with
us so that we don't feel alone Again if you if
you have any questions, we'd love to stay connected
But if you have any questions or comments or
a topic you'd like us to address or anything
along those lines Please don't hesitate to reach
out to us Thank you to those who have and do
but that email is he redeems us at gmail .com
And if this episode touched your heart or you
would like to share it with someone you love
or care about a friend a family member Anyone
who could use a little more hope right now and
or maybe a reminder about forgiveness We all
could use that reminder including me Even you.
Especially me. That's not probably true, but
next week we're gonna talk more about how the
Savior doesn't just redeem us, He heals us, He
lifts us, He transforms us, and He does it in
our everyday lives. Thank you, friends, for being
with us. We love you, and remember, there is
always hope through Him, because you have been
redeemed through His blood. Thanks, everybody.
See you next time.