Hey there everybody, welcome out to another episode
of Redeemed Through His Blood, Scott Durfey here
as always joined by my beautiful co -host and
partner for eternity. How are you, Deb? I'm so
good. I just had a steak and a potato. I'm epic.
Not much vegan about you, I guess. That's for
sure. Yeah, it was pretty good. We're excited
to get together again tonight and talk about
the stuff that we're going to be talking about.
We had another wonderful institute lesson last
week. Deb's healing up quite nicely from her
motorcycle accident a couple of weeks ago. I'm
all healed. Pretty much all healed. She's still
got a ways to go. Anyway, thanks everybody for
your emails. We got several of them in response
to last week's episode requesting specifically
the list of the potential weapons of rebellion.
And again, this is not a all comprehensive list.
It's just kind of a... I don't know, what do
you call it, Deb? Thought provoker, right? Thought
provoker, yeah, that's a good way to put it.
It just kind of gets you thinking about maybe
where some of the weapons of rebellion lay in
your life, et cetera. So you can continue to
do that, please. And if you didn't and still
would like a copy of that, please email us at
he redeems us at gmail .com. He redeems. us at
gmail .com we read everyone if you have questions
we'll be happy to try and answer those via email
if it's something we feel like would be pertinent
with your permission we sometimes like to share
those on the podcast as well you may have noticed
also many of you have been on social media and
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we encourage you we put stuff on there all the
time that kind of promote and thought, thought
provoking things and things that kind of help
us throughout the week to center our thoughts
on the Savior Jesus Christ and the solution to
all of our fallenness, which we all experience
undoubtedly. Hey, and while you're there, if
you wouldn't mind just liking it and subscribing,
do that the same with the podcast. Several of
you have left recent reviews and we appreciate
those. If you could continue to do that, that
just kind of helps get the word out. We do a
lot of work. We put a lot of work into this,
and it is our wish and desire to carry this hope,
the same hope that Deb and I have been afforded
through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It's our
wish and desire to just take that to as many
people as are willing to receive it. And this
really is a labor of love. There is no, absolutely
no monetization or anything like that for this
podcast. It will remain forever that way. But
we do that because this is a labor of love. and
we have felt our Heavenly Father's love through
our own healings and our own journey and the
process which we're still in of our own conversion
and it's just our wish and desire to carry that
to as many people as possible. Well Deb, last
week we really explored in some detail this idea
about burying our weapons of rebellion. We used
Alma 23 kind of as our, I don't know, the meat
if you will, or the... I don't know, impetus
behind all of our discussion were the anti -Nephi
Lehi's out of their own covenant with Heavenly
Father, buried weapons of rebellion. And because
they did that, they were converted unto the Lord
and never did fall away, which was, and that's
all in Alma 23. We spent a lot of time on that.
I always wanna bring up the part when they were
converted unto the Lord, but God also gave them
miracles. I know I keep bringing that up. Well,
that was part of their conversion process, huh?
Yes, yes. And you know what? I will say this.
If we have eyes to see, we will see miracles.
Just like this quick healing has felt like a
miracle to me. Yeah, referring to your motorcycle
accident healing. Yes, absolutely. And I think
those are things that help my conversion is having
eyes to see those miracles. Yeah. Well, and as
you said it, if we will have eyes to see it,
it can be a choice. You know, it can be an intention.
We can intend it to intend to see the miracles
in our lives and they'll be there. And in fact,
many of them are in deed there already. Right.
So a couple of the things that we talked about,
and I'm just kind of doing a recap of the last
couple of weeks when we'll get into today's topic,
but a couple of the things that we really kind
of talked about from a high level, Deb, we talked
about that rebellion isn't really just an act
of defiance. It can be kind of subtle. We talked
about some more of the subtle type of, I think
you brought up the talk from Elder Christopherson
on rebellion. In fact, I think it was entitled
Bearing Weapons of Rebellion, if I'm not mistaken.
And in it, he identified, you pointed this out
to us, he identified a more passive rebellion
in addition to a more active rebellion. And in
that more passive rebellion, I think that that's
one of the places where many of our rebellions
just kinda hide out. Yeah, for sure. And then
one of the things that we talked about a couple
of weeks ago, we talked about our fallen state.
We talked about how because we were fallen, and
this pulled through into last week's and it will
again into this week's discussion as well, but
because we are fallen, we have tendencies. and
we read about this in Mosiah, we'll be revisiting
that, that the natural man is an enemy to God.
We have tendencies that are rebellion. Now, we
talked about state versus trait a few weeks ago
in terms of the fall of Adam and Eve. We are
in a fallen state, but that's not our traits.
Our traits are our DNA, our RNA, just who we
are. And we are, our traits all come from God,
all come from divinity. Just like we are not
our story. Right. We are not our mistakes. I
heard a podcast, you turned me on to a podcast.
Oh my word, it was so good. In that podcast,
I heard a statement that said, I may butchert
and if I do, feel free to correct me, we are
not the worst thing that we have done. I loved
that. Yeah. Yeah, because how many times... for
me, have I put that label on myself, I am, and
whatever it was that I did or was going through
or what had happened to me or whatever. But I
had picked up those labels. And that speaks directly
to state versus trait. You're in a fallen state.
Because of this fallen state, we have tendencies
that are fallen. But because of our traits which
are divine, we have the ability to overcome,
or to be forgiven for, or to find peace within
some of those fallen states. And I think that
really kind of encompasses what we're talking
about when we talk about. Rebellion and weapons
specifically weapons of rebellion. Yeah, yeah,
we're down here exercising our agency like crazy
We are really exercising that agency, but aren't
we grateful we have it I was talking to one of
our kids yesterday or today and I Just said gosh.
I wish I could take this from from you and they
said why would you take it from me? Then I wouldn't
learn anything And I was like, wow. That's good.
That's good. At least they're focused on the
learning part of what they're going through.
Exactly. And you know what, I'm grateful my parents
didn't take my learnings from me either. So.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, OK, tonight we're going to
dive a little deeper. We're really going to,
as Deb and I have been discussing it throughout
the week. And this is a topic we're going to
bump up against again in a few more weeks from
now. Not necessarily the topic, but these two
traits that we're going to talk about, or these
two things that we're going to talk about. Because
as Deb and I have been discussing, and we kind
of at length over the last week, we've been able
to spend quite a bit of time together and things
like that. And we've been really talking about
these weapons of rebellion. And we, I think,
have kind of decided, and Deb, correct me if
I'm wrong, And I don't think we're the only ones
that feel this way. This isn't an original thought
to us. But at the same time, we're not experts
on this as well. So take that for what it is.
But it appears to me that fear and pride are
kind of really the root of every spiritual disconnection
and rebellion that we ever have. Fear. and pride.
And we've tried to dissect it. We've tried because
there are certain things I said and you're like
well that's fear and pride. And then we'll say
oh that's pride and fear. So we've really tried
to dissect it and we would love feedback from
you if you can help us even dig a little deeper.
But it's been an interesting exercise for us
to discuss that in how fear and pride are definitely.
a huge part of our rebellion. Yeah, well, you
know, I think, and we said this, that they're
really kind of the root of nearly every rebellion.
And actually, you know, we can take that a step
further and say every spiritual disconnection.
One, semantics maybe, I guess. One could say
it's one way or one could say it's the other
way, but, you know, or both. Maybe that means
the same thing, I don't know. I do know, though,
that from what we've been talking about, especially
as we began, we know that we are hopeless without
a savior. We know that the Savior atoned for
everything that we will ever go through, and
we know that by aligning with His atonement that
we can have healing in all of this, and we know
that the Savior heals the root, not just the
fruit. You know, I think last week we spent most
of the time talking about the fruit of rebellion.
You know, the fruit of rebellion is, and I'll
just pull that list back up again, and I'll just
bring up the first few that jump off the page
at me, but addictions and anger. and gossip and
passive aggressiveness and sexual immorality
and dishonesty and uncontrolled spending and
greed and idleness and avoidance of responsibility.
And those are all fruits of rebellion. It is
the way we're positioning it. Again, we're not
experts, but the way we see it, the way we're
positioning it is those are the fruits. Those
are what come from the real rebellion. The real
rebellion is what? Is? Fear and pride. Fear and
pride. Yeah, so the real rebellion is fear and
pride Because because I think basically everything
comes from that everything that we just talked
about So why would we want to be talking about
fear and pride? Well, I think it is it kind of
integrates with you know what we talked about
last week about rebellion and you know it's not
like I I want to hyper focus on this but I think
it was it's important for us to focus on because
as I reflect and again put the mirror in front
of my face take my own inventory I had I definitely
have learned a lot just in the the dissecting
where fear and pride really actually stand. For
me, for me. Because literally, of all my life
experiences, things that I have gone through,
things that I'm going through, all have this
basis of, when I'm uncomfortable, is it fear
or is it pride? Literally, and I'm not being,
I mean I hate to say this. Do you actually go
through that process? Not every time, but if
I push pause, yes, absolutely I do. And it's
very interesting, and sometimes I even have to
ask myself, what am I afraid of? Or the fear
of what other people think is my pride question.
Am I worshiping the God of what other people
think? Or what am I afraid of? So fear. Fear,
let's start with fear then. That's kind of what
you're talking about right there, right? So let's
just kind of define fear, the best we know how
or the best we can for this conversation. Deb,
what would you say, fear? It's the lack of faith,
for sure. Yeah, right? I mean, what else would
you need to say? But I guess there's some other
ways that we could define it. Well, it's not
just anxiety. Right. It's probably when we forget
who we are and whose we are, so we're not trusting
God and his plan, you know? Yeah, promoted by
the accuser, of course. For sure, the accuser's
always in there, yakking his jaw in my ear. You
know Deb, when I think about fear, Of course,
I think about a lot of things but I can't help
it maybe first and foremost when I think about
fear I think about recovery Because because that's
where I learned about my fear because it was
in the rooms of 12 -step programs where I actually
began to Understand my fear the power behind
it. I'm still trying to understand it. Don't
you know, don't get me wrong I don't I don't
I'm not an expert on the topic. However, I have
a ton of experience with fear. And I find it
interesting how frequently in the big book of
Alcoholics Anonymous, so this is on page 67 of
the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I'm
not gonna read a ton, but just some bits and
pieces here, but it talks about fear actually
and pride. Now it puts it in context that when
somebody does a fifth step, now the fifth step
is that we make a complete moral inventory. of
the searching and fearless moral inventory of
ourselves. That's four. Yeah, that's four. And
then five is we share it with others, right?
And so this is talking about four when we actually
talk about four. And part of that inventory is
fear. We do a fear inventory. And it says, now
notice that the word fear is bracketed alongside
the difficulties. This short word somehow touches
about every aspect of our lives. It was an evil
and corroding thread. The fabric of our existence
was shot through with it. It set in motion trains
of circumstances which brought us misfortune
we felt we didn't deserve. But did not we ourselves
set the ball rolling? Sometimes we think fear
ought to be classified with stealing. It seems
to cause more trouble. And then it goes on, we
trust infinite God rather than our finite selves.
We are in the world to play the role he assigns
just to the extent that we do we think he would
have us and humbly rely on him. Does he enable
us to match calamity with serenity? So the answer
to our fear is to align with God And let me just
go on one more the verdict of the ages that faith
means courage So it talks about how faith is
the anecdote fear all men of faith have courage.
They trust their God We never apologize for God
instead. We let him demonstrate Through us what
he can do We ask him to remove our fear and direct
our attention to what he would have us be and
at once we commence to outgrow fear It's aligning
our will with God, Deb. It's broken heart and
contrite spirit. And it's right there, so. Isn't
there something that you learned about fear and
anger, like suppressed fear? Oh yeah, sure did.
Remind me what it is. I'm not because I just
remembered yeah you telling me that and I was
like well I've never thought of that well this
is an example of how you know we said earlier
that some of the other rebellions like anger
for example could be a fruit of rebellion the
the root of my anger issue, and I no longer have
an anger issue. No, you really don't. And you
watch the transition, actually. I know. But the
root of my anger issue was fear. That's right.
Quick story about that. I was doing my inventory.
This was not the full -blown fifth step, but
I was doing, I was just working on some issues
with my sponsor. Was it your anger? Yeah, it
was my anger issue. And it was with a sponsor,
and my anger issue was ugly. And it was mostly
ugly for myself. A lot of anger can look a lot
of different ways, and it was just... All anger's
ugly, but it was affecting me, and I called my
sponsor, Big Al, and I said to him, Al, we need
to talk, and so we met. We met at a coffee shop
here in Orem, Utah. That's where he liked to
meet, and we're going through things, talking
about things, and I'm just saying, Al, I gotta
overcome this anger issue, and he says, well,
give me some examples of what you're even talking
about, and so I would. But then he'd say, okay,
how about another one? And so I would. Okay,
how about another one? And so I would. And so
these would be different ones in different settings.
One may be a road rage issue. Anyway, whatever.
But as we talked about this, you know what he
said to me. I know, and this is what I'm trying
to recall. And I was like, it was so powerful
for me to hear. But we went through this and
he just kind of looked at it like only he could
do. This guy was. such an incredible man but
he would just look he kind of looked down at
some of the things that I had written out and
and it was just kind of quiet and he's playing
with his mustache and then he looks up at me
and he says Scott you don't have an anger issue
you're just a scared little boy yeah you're just
a scared little boy well that scared little boy
was 50 years old at that time yeah and what how
did you receive that I was I was so grateful
I mean, when he said that, Devin, unfortunately,
we were in a public place. Did you get weepy?
I did, I broke down. I broke down, that's just
what I do. When I know that it's right, when
the Spirit speaks to me, I break down. And when
he said that, I felt, it was like the first time
I knew I was an alcoholic. When a stake president
told me one time, Scott, you're an alcoholic.
It didn't take me sideways, it was relief. It
was like, oh. What a relief. Because I think
if we identify the problem, then we can begin
to identify and align with the solution. Yes,
100%. I say that a lot. 100 % of the time you
say 100%. It's true. This is just one of the
things that's just really important for us to
understand that when we're talking about fear,
it's not just anxiety, it's what it is, is it's
not trusting God. Right. either his character
or his plan. Now when we talk about faith, we're
gonna talk about the attributes and perfections
of God. And we may even refer to the lectures
on faith. And we'll be looking into that. Some
but but what we'll find in there is that actually
and when we talk about faith is will identify
the Faith of power the power behind faith and
how that power one of the powers of faith will
extol exterminate eliminate completely eradicate
fear think about it, when you have the spirit
with you so strong, and think about one of those
times in your life that you really felt connected
to God, and that you really felt like he has
me, he's got me, I'm his. There is a pure absence
of fear. Pure absence of fear, yeah I love that,
that's a great way to put it. But fear is sneaky
sometimes. Absolutely. You know, we can be riddled
with fear sometimes and not really even know
it. Recognize it. How do we recognize it? How
do we know when we're starting to move into these
fear mechanisms, these fear problems? How does
it show up? How does fear show up in our lives?
Well, it's uncomfortable. First off, it's very
uncomfortable. Yeah. I love that you and I have
had multiple conversations on this because there's
days I come home and I'll say certain things
and you're like, well, what are you afraid of?
So like my little truth meter here is like, I
wasn't asking you for that. But it's honestly,
you know, sometimes it clouds your view. I mean,
my view, it clouds what I'm trying to, you know,
see. And you know, Satan is sneaky. He is so
cunning and he's very sneaky and he will do everything
he can to sneak those little things in to avoid
your prayer and scripture study and being really
honest, honest with yourself, honest with others.
It comes in control issues. I am a control, don't
laugh. I am a control freak. What does that have
to do with fear? I mean, I say that kind of rhetorically,
but I want you to answer it, because I wanna
stay, again, we need to think about these things,
so what does control have to do with fear? Well,
I want things done a certain way for fear that
it's not gonna get done right, and for fear what
other people might think if it's not done right.
I will give you a, for example, if... I am putting
flowers in my front yard. I want them done a
certain way. Yeah, I know. Look, it's not fair
that you sit and take my inventory. I'm not.
I'm agreeing with the inventory you're taking.
And along with that, I have this perfectionism.
I mean, it's like things have to be done a certain
way, and if it's not done a certain way, then
I have to redo it. You know, I'm a control freak,
too. There's a lot of things about control, but
it's less about My control has more to do with
people, I think. I try to be controlling. I find
myself being controlled. Now I'm gonna take your
inventory. It takes a lot. I try to be controlling
with people. I try to use forceful suggestions
sometimes. And if I think about it, okay, so
what's my fear issue? What's the underlying fear?
behind my rebellion of control. Control is the
fruit, fear is the root, maybe pride too, actually.
Yeah, actually. Rebellion is really the root.
We'll kind of weave them together here in a minute.
And pride and fear are probably the trunk. Exactly,
the trunk of the tree. For me, my self -control
fear is if I don't manage everything in my life
or if I'm not in control of everything, it's
gonna all fall apart. I'm pretty important, you
know? I say that. If you don't believe him, ask
him. Exactly, exactly. Another way it can show
up sometimes is perfectionism. A lot of people
think if I mess up, I'm just not worthy. If you
come to my house and it's not... perfectly clean,
you're gonna judge me. That pride, fear, people
-pleasing is such a big one for me. Here's another
one that will fall heavily into the pride one
too, but I put it in fear because this is one
that... has been predominant throughout my life,
specifically, still a little bit predominant,
but before recovery, it was extremely predominant
in my life. And that is people pleasing, or hiding,
hiding behind a persona. That's what I would
do. I would hide behind a persona. I call those
masks. Yeah, I would hide behind a mask. And
I was pretty good at creating these masks. And
I really do believe that most people around me
saw the mask and believed the mask. We put on
a facade of perfection. It has to look a certain
way so that we can fit in and be long. And I
mean, I remember I don't know if this is appropriate
for me to share, but I remember when I was married
to a drug dealer. and I didn't want my bishop
to know, I didn't want my neighbors to know,
but I didn't know what to do. That was not me,
incidentally. Previous. I dealt drugs before
I knew you. It was just one of those things that
it's like, I don't know where to turn. I don't
know who to ask. I don't know my safe space.
Because I was putting on this face of I'm an
active member and I do all these things. I have
an inactive husband, but I sure did not want
to expose all of the dirt that was going on.
You were being encouraged to hide. Exactly. Exactly.
Hide. Hide why? Because if they saw the real
me, meaning not just divinity saw the real me,
as was the case in the Garden of Eden, that was
the reference I was just making. Satan encouraged
Adam and Eve to hide after they had committed
the transgression. Hide. And so he encourages
us to do the same thing, hide. And for me, that's
been a big one. Again, predominant mostly. before
recovery, but even since recovery, there's a
tendency sometimes, I have a tendency sometimes
to worry about what people think of me. I think
the biggest reason for that for me, Deb, was
because I didn't understand my identity. Yeah,
you just forgot. Yeah, well, I didn't understand
it for sure for whatever reason, but I was afraid
that if they saw the real me, I wouldn't have
people in my life. Or if they saw the real me,
they wouldn't like me, or they wouldn't approve,
or I wouldn't be acceptable, or I wouldn't be
accepted, you know, and all these other things.
But it doesn't have to be that way. And it's
not the case today as predominantly. It still
comes up. But there's things that I have to do
to keep that aside. Yeah, and there's some scriptures
that go along with the fear. In Psalms 34, it
says, I sought the Lord and He heard me and delivered
me from all my fears. I love that because as
we seek and as we follow Him, like I said, when
we feel the Spirit in abundance, there's no fears.
We know who we are and whose we are. It's definitely
a... a comforting, calming place. And it's that
remembering. I tell the Institute kids that when
we come down here, we're dismembered from God.
We're not in His presence anymore. And when we're
down here, we're just trying to find Him again
so that we can be remembered with Him instead
of dismembered. And I love that analogy just
because it helps me go, oh yeah, I'm just remembering.
and remembering me, who I am, whose I am. Yeah,
for sure. Another scripture, one that kind of
pops out to me, Second Timothy in the New Testament,
Second Timothy chapter one, verse seven. For
God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but
of power, and of love, and of sound mind. I love
that too. But of power, and of love, and of sound
mind. So when we're in our space of fear, we
get to say, get thee hence Satan, not today,
because we know where fear is coming from. Yeah,
exactly. Cast him out. You say that and laugh
about it, but if we really could do that, if
we could really figure out a way to identify
when we're in that space early on, because sometimes
I don't identify it until it's like wreckage
is done. or whatever. But if we can recognize
it early enough, make that alignment early enough,
then we're in good shape, right? Maybe we can
just kind of wrap up this fear discussion on
Deb, how do we heal then from fear? I think we've
identified faith and fear can't be together,
faith is the power. We just read again about
power in 2 Timothy 1, 7, for God hath not given
us the spirit of fear but of power. And of love
which to me is the greatest power. Yeah, you
know I think about One of the times in my life
when I was very full of fear I was a senior in
high school and I was Pregnant and I had to tell
my parents and I had to face, you know the bishop
and face people and you know I was a terrified
little girl yeah and I did not I remember thinking
this is bigger than me and I remember getting
on my knees and pleading and saying I don't know
what to do I don't know where to go this is bigger
than me and I remember feeling that peace and
going and talking to my parents and knowing that
it was going to be okay not easy Definitely not
easy, but I knew that it was gonna be okay. And
I think it's important to remember that when
we are in those pits of, oh boy, how did I get
in this situation? Or, oh, this is bigger than
me. To remember that our God is bigger than our
mess is so important for me to remember that.
Because there's often times I get phone calls
or I get news that is like, whoa, this is big.
This is heavy. But my God is bigger than all
of it. That was a difficult time for you and
a lot of us go through difficult times and sometimes
those difficult times, it's difficult for us
to reach out. It's difficult for us to fall on
our knees and even reach out to Heavenly Father
who we know loves us. There's a lot of shame.
Often there's shame and often there's a feeling
of judgment and those types of things that keep
us from doing that. But really, those things
that we are feeling, again, are what we would
call on the passive side of the fruits of those
rebellions. And again, the underlying or the
root of those rebellions can be pride. In some
of those cases, it can also be fear. And you're
gonna find, Gang, that this is really interchangeable.
Sometimes... Twin bullies, we're gonna read about,
we're gonna talk about twin bullies in a few
weeks down the road and how they prevent us from
repenting. But we're talking about them tonight
by way of weapons of rebellion and here they
are again, like I said, kind of intertwined.
But what's pride, Deb? Well, pride has a lot
of definitions in my personal view of it. Because,
I mean, it can be self -focused. I mean, you
can look at me. It could be feeling superior.
It could be feeling inferior. You know, I remember
when I was working with a sponsor and she was
talking about high -end and low -end pride. That's
how she defined it. That's how she defined it.
Meaning, you know, feeling less than and feeling...
And the example she used, I'll never forget this,
the example she used is, you know when somebody
gives you a compliment and you're like, no, no,
no, that's not me. And she says, what if Jesus
Christ, when he was here on the earth and he
was healing and he was creating all those miracles
and they're like, thank you so much. Oh no, no,
no, it's no big deal. And when she put it that
way, I was like, oh yeah, that's silly. He always
gave his glory to God. and I... I think about
that all the time and anytime I do anything that
surprises me, I go, wow, that was definitely
not me. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for that
gift. That was definitely intervention. Or even
sometimes when I'm speaking or even talking to
someone and something comes out of my mouth that
I get to learn from, I physically look up and
go, thank you, Heavenly Father. That was definitely
not my mind or my thoughts that came up with
that. That was divine inspiration. So pride,
I think, has multiple definitions for me. I remember
in 1989 when Ezra Taft Benson gave his talk on
pride, and there's been numerous talks since,
but I think it has been such a powerful subject
to study even. because of that high -end and
low -end pride, feeling not good enough, being
easily offended is a form of pride. And I remember
thinking, wow, guilty. Like, it's been, it's
really had to, you know, like put the mirror
in front of my face, like I always say. I struggle
a lot with pride. I don't know if I struggle
more with fear or with pride. And honestly, I
think pride is an extension of fear. They're
twins, I'm telling ya. But I think that pride
actually comes out of fear. I think it's the
fear of not measuring up, the fear of not having
enough. Maybe, I don't know, I could be wrong,
I used to have that discussion with David and
we'd go round and around and I probably won't
do that on this podcast. It's like a dog chasing
a tail. It kind of is, to a degree, but for me,
When I think about pride, what I just think about,
like you said, what President Ezra Tappan said,
one of the things that he said in his, that great
talk, was it 1987, is that right? 1989. Pride
is the great sin. That's what he said. The great
sin is pride. Okay, well. But I know we over
a little bit over rotated after 1989 to we couldn't
be proud of our kids, you know, and stuff like
that. I don't think that was the intent. It was
it was. I just don't want to, you know, come
across like, hey, you should be proud of your
kids and you should. Those kinds of things. There's
definitely a righteous pride. But it's beware
of pride because pride can be and is, according
to President Desert have mentioned that great
sin. Pride says. to me that I can do it without
God or either that I can do it without God, I
don't need his help or I'm too broken, I've gone
too far. Like you said, that would be an example
of those two prides, right? How does pride show
up in our lives, Deb? Pride definitely shows
up a lot in my life for the simple fact is I
think that I'm... in control. I got this. Look
at this, I did this. Look how fast I'm healing.
Like literally, I know this, I'm milking this,
but it's in my face today. And it's like, I'm
not doing this healing. I mean, God's doing this
healing. Do you think I know how to send blood
and capillaries and all this stuff to these wounds
and these scrapes and these, you know what, it's...
It's one of those things that I think that I'm
doing things. And I forget my nothingness. Okay,
so you're saying that pride's self -focus, that
you're just focusing on you, self -reliance over
god -reliance, right? It can be, absolutely.
Yeah, but here's the thing. You are doing things
to promote your healing. You're drinking, I mean
- A lot of water. A lot of water. You gotta tell
them what I'm drinking. You can't just say, I'm
drinking. a lot of hydrogenated water, you're
taking supplements, you're treating it. Red light
therapy. Exactly, red light, there you go, those
kinds of things. You've done ice on it, you've
done hyperbaric chamber because you have access
and all kinds of things. So it would be easy
to say. Look what I can do. Look what I've done,
I've healed myself. Look how quickly I can heal
if I just do the right things, look how quickly
I can heal. How's that pride? How is that rebellion?
Well, and that's where I really have to push
pause, me personally, I have to push pause and
give the glory to God, literally. And my savior,
because he's the ultimate healer. I think that
a lot of other ways that pride shows up for me
is through comparison. Number one offender. Right,
comparison is the thief of joy. 100 % The thief
of joy, you know, and I still can do it. I don't
really compare myself with people and things
and what they have. And, you know, those guys
could care less about that stuff for the most
part. But I do compare myself with a lot of other
ideals. You know, a lot of other I see certain
men as this man. That guy is just squared away.
And it really has nothing to do with financial
success, but he's just squared away and so many
other And I'll compare myself and I'll think
I should have been a better dad. I should have
been a better husband to Deb during that period
of our struggle. I should have whatever. I should
have been a better son to my mom and dad. I can't
believe the hell I put them through. And so many
other things. But that's by comparison. And it
may not just be comparing myself against another
person. A lot of times I'm comparing myself against
an ideal. an ideology that doesn't really even
exist, right? Except by way of ideology. Well,
maybe we're going back to perfectionism. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. I mean, that intertwines as well.
Yeah, right. Yeah. I think one of the another
way that pride shows up is resentment. Yeah.
Or again, being easily offended. Yeah. and I
think our families take the brunt end of our
relationship. Messiness. Messiness, yeah. Because
we're with them all the time. We're closest to
them and we feel safest to throw verbal and emotional
darts. I say we as in me. because I come home
and I've had a terrible, rotten, no good day,
and you get to hear all about it. Yeah, resentment's
a big one. In the big book of Alcoholics and
Onamans, it says that resentment is the number
one culprit for relapse. And it also says this,
that resentment is a luxury of other men that
we don't have. That's a paraphrase, but that's
what it says. We don't have, as fallen people,
and specifically as it's talking about in the
big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, we don't have
the luxury for resentment. What does that mean,
the luxury for resentment? I say that rhetorical,
I'm not asking you to answer that, but what does
that mean? What does that mean, the luxury of
resentment? I can tell you what it means for
me. I've used resentment a lot in my life to
justify my rebellions. I've used resentment to
justify my fear of anger, which spawns my anger,
and many other things. Right, I remember also
hearing holding a resentment or copying a resentment.
And when you have that resentment, it's like
drinking that poison and hoping somebody else
will die from it. Yeah, that's the crazy thing
about resentment. And it hurts us. You know,
we had a conversation with a young man, Sunday,
who lost his mom a year ago -ish, and his dad's
getting remarried. he basically said, he's having
a hard time with it. He's having a really hard
time with it. And he said, I decided that I'm
gonna drop my resentment because do I wanna lose
one parent or both? And that was huge for me.
I just thought, good for you. That was just a
powerful reminder of how resentments hurt and
harm us so much. It would be so easy. out of
fear and or pride in that situation to have a
different opinion or a different approach. But
what's the problem? The problem is when we have
that stuff, it robs us of the ability to have
the spirit or feel the spirit in our lives. Let's
take a look at a couple of scriptures, Deb, at
least a scripture and there may be a story from
scripture. Let's take a look at the Doctrine
and Covenants. Let's go to the Doctrine and Covenants,
section 23, verse one. This is where I just have
to say thank you, Oliver Cowdery, for being the
person. Because a lot of times in Doctrine and
Covenants, when God calls certain people out,
I'm just like, oh gosh, I'm glad that wasn't
me. But I do cross out their name and put my
name in there, because I kind of have to take
my own personal inventory again. I'm grateful
for Oliver Cowdery in this. You're the one that
brought this scripture to my attention, Deb.
Why don't you just talk about it, read it, and
we'll go from there. So it says, behold, I speak
unto you, Oliver, a few words. Behold, thou are
blessed and art under no condemnation, but beware
of pride, lest thou should enter into temptation.
And I circled that and I wrote that's a blessing
and a warning. You're blessed, but be aware.
So in my scriptures it says, behold, I speak
unto you, Deb. few words behold thou are blessed
because I am blessed you know and I'm not under
any condemnation but beware of pride I just think
it's important for us to you know focus on what
we can be doing not what you know, what the world
wants us to be doing. Or even maybe what we think
we want to be doing, right? Just focusing on
what the Lord wants us to be doing. And don't
get deceived. Which is easy to have, that's easy
to have happen to us, that deception is very,
especially when we're enveloped with pride, especially
when we let that root of pride come into our
lives, Deb. It's easy for us to be deceived because
we become justified, we justify ourselves. And
so, you know, talking about being justified,
remember the story in Luke chapter 18 of The
Young Ruler? The young ruler comes to Jesus and
he says, I want to, what do I need to do to enter
the kingdom of heaven? And he goes through the
commandments and all of that. He says, I'm doing
all those. He says, I'm already doing all that.
I'm already doing all that. I've been doing that
since I was a little boy. And I can see him saying
it that way. And it says, to be justified. He
says, I've already done all that. I've been doing
all that ever since I was a little boy. And then
Jesus says, well then, go sell everything you've
got and come follow me. Give it to the poor and
then come follow me. Yeah, that's right. Give
it to the poor and then come follow me. You know,
I think it's interesting that they talk about,
in fact, Sunday when we were listening to my
brother Eric and his sweet wife Carrie give their
farewell speech as they were getting ready to
go on their... He's going to be the mission president
in Detroit, Michigan. So you lucky people in
Detroit. This is a great man and a woman coming
your way. But he talked about, you know, we learn
certain things. you know, and then we go to a
higher law. And then when we learn obedience,
the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the
law of, you know, and these are things we learn
in the temple. But the law of consecration is
one of the higher laws. When you're willing to
give everything you have. I mean, and you know
what? It really makes me kind of, again, put
the mirror in front of my face and go, would
I be willing to sell everything I have? to follow
him? Yeah, or give away everything you have or
whatever. It would be more difficult for me to
give away some of my sins. It would be more difficult
for me to give away some of my habits. It would
be more difficult, you know what I'm saying?
It would be more difficult in some cases for
me to bury my weapons of rebellion. that keep
me from filling the spirit. So it's important
for me to keep those things at bay so that I
can have the spirit in my life. Why is that so
important? Because it keeps me from filling all
of the garbage I felt before when I didn't feel
like the atonement of Jesus Christ was at work
in my life. How do we heal from pride? We talked
about how we heal from fear. How do we heal from
pride? Good question. I think I think one of
the important things and this was really important
thing for me to understand when I first came
into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous Because
I had suffered from so much humiliation. I had
absolutely done everything I could possibly do
to burn my life down and create just loads of
humiliation there's a difference between humiliation
and humility and Humility is the anecdote to
pride right right so When I think of humility
instead of humiliation, the difference there
is my dependency. If I'm humiliated, I see my
dependency being on me. If I am humbled, I see
my dependency in Jesus Christ. That's why I love
that hymn. Hymn one, two, three. Oh, may my soul
commune with thee and find thy holy peace. I
love that. Just let me commune, let me just set
my rebellious self aside and depend solely on
Jesus Christ. I mean, this is - Yeah, these are
weapons that are deep, ones that we carry deep
inside of us, though. They're not just kind of
on the outside, they're deep in us. And again,
remember, if we go back to Alma 23, they buried
their, actually in Alma 24, it talks about their
weapons being buried deep. And so they're deep
within us now, if they're weapons of rebellion.
To have them excised from us, they have to be
buried deep. Because I think sometimes I'm guilty
of. setting a weapon aside, maybe shallow burying
so I can dig it back up. So I love that we say
bury them deep. Put water on it and concrete.
Get it out. And put our pure dependency on Jesus
Christ. A couple of things that we need to do,
again, just as a reminder to kind of lay down
our weapons of rebellion. We just need to remember
the scripture we read last week. We won't take
the time to do it tonight, but I'll encourage
you all to do it on your own. Go to Mosiah chapter
three, verse 19, where we learn that the natural
man, and we're all natural, the natural man or
person is an enemy of God and will be forever
and ever. unless he yields to the enticings of
the Holy Spirit and becomeeth a child and putteth
off the natural man, and I'm going by memory
here, but then engages in the atonement of Jesus
Christ. So we know that in order for us to really
take on that humble, ridding ourselves of pride
and even ridding ourselves of fear, as you mentioned,
Deb, Our confidence really waxes strong in the
presence of God. We learn that from the Doctrine
and Covenants. And we do that as we come to know
Him. And again, remember who we are. anytime
we're seeking the Holy Ghost, seeking the Spirit,
we know that we are warding off that fear and
pride as well. I was at a baptism last Saturday
when a grandpa was giving a talk about the Holy
Ghost, and he was talking about, it was so cute
because he used the CTR ring to represent things
of the Holy Ghost. I'm going off on a tangent
here, but there is a reason I'm telling you this.
He basically said, you know, when we're seeking
the Holy Ghost, you know, you can think of your
CTR ring, which typically means choose the right.
But he says the C could be to comfort and to
compel us. And T could be to testify and to teach
us. The Holy Ghost testifies and teaches us.
And for the R is to reveal and to help us remember
him. I love that comparison to the CTR ring.
and the Holy Ghost. And I think as we seek and
search for the Spirit to be with us, I think
that's a really important piece of ridding fear
and pride out of our lives. There's really only
a way, one way to completely eliminate or eradicate
this fear and pride. in our lives, Deb, and that's
really kind of spelled out for us very explicitly
in Doctrine and Covenants chapter six. We're
gonna come to this scripture we already have,
and we're gonna just keep coming back to this
scripture time and time again. It's that important.
But as specifically as we're talking about fear
and pride, Doctrine and Covenants chapter six,
verse 36 is where I will begin. Look unto me
in every thought. Doubt not, fear not. Now let's
just pause for just a second there. Fear not,
that's easy. We know fear is fear. Fear would
be the fear part of this fear and pride conversation.
Doubt, there may be, if we have pride, there
may be a lot of doubt. A lot of doubt in ourself,
a lot of doubt in our ability, a lot of doubt
in our relationship with God and divinity. And
so maybe doubt and fear or pride and fear are
being addressed here. So look unto me in every
thought, doubt not, fear not. Behold, and this
is the anecdote. This is a way that we overcome.
fear and pride. And rebellion. Which is the root
of all rebellion, right? And so let's just remember
that. We are looking at the root, not the fruit
here. We're dealing with the fruit of rebellion
and all the other things that we've talked about.
The root of our rebellion is this fear and pride.
And so behold, the wounds which pierced my side
and also the prints of the nails in my hands
and feet. Be faithful. keep my commandments and
you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven you know
I as we kind of wrap it up tonight I'm going
to submit that we can feel the kingdom of heaven
here on earth if we will but And I don't say
but as though it's an easy task. I know that
it's difficult. I know that it requires a great,
immense amount of effort on our part. But if
we will but look unto him in every thought, our
fear and our doubts and our pride and all other
things will be enveloped in the atonement of
Jesus Christ. It reminds me of the story of Mary
and Martha in Luke chapter 10, when Martha was
encumbered about and serving and came to him
and said, Lord, does thou not care that my sister
hath left me to serve alone? Bid her therefore
that she help me. I would be that Martha. And
Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha,
Deb, Deb, Thou art careful and troubled about
many things, but one thing is needful, and Mary
hath chosen that good part, which shall not be
taken from her. And I often think of that picture
with Mary and Martha, and just Mary at Jesus'
feet, and that one thing is our savior, Jesus
Christ. It's so important for me to remember
that all things point to him. All things point
to Jesus Christ. And when I have him in my forefront,
my fear, my pride, my rebellion is diminished.
Now, do I have him always in my forefront? Absolutely
not. But do I want to? Absolutely. So, I'm definitely
the Martha Martha. You are troubled with many
things. I can relate to that. So, I just love
that reminder that there's only one needful thing
and that is our Savior Jesus Christ. You know,
as we just kind of wrap up the podcast tonight,
Deb, it just kind of reminds me of another scripture.
This is going to be in John chapter 14. And this
is where Jesus is talking about the Comforter
or the Holy Ghost. We're going to start in verse
26. He says, but the Comforter, which is the
Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things and bring all things
to your remembrance whatsoever I've said unto
you. And then he goes on and tells us about some
of the benefit that we will have through having
the Comforter in our life, administrating the
blessings from Jesus Christ available to us through
his Atonement, where he says, peace I leave with
you, my peace I give unto you, not as the world
giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be
troubled, neither let it be afraid. So to me,
the real anecdote, the real answer to any of
my fear, to any of my pride is to have the Holy
Ghost, the Comforter present in my life so that
I can have the peace that exceeds all understanding
available to me. And when I do, and I do. There
are many times, multiple times in my life, currently
and in the past, that this is a case for me,
where I do feel his peace, which is the absolute
greatest miracle, that I can feel that by contrast
to the way my life has been in the past. And
when I do feel that, I have no fear. And when
I do feel that, my humility is probably better
intact as well. Well, and who doesn't want peace?
Eternal peace. God -given peace. not the worldly
peace, but the God -given peace. So as we kind
of wrap everything up tonight, we just want to
say that wherever you are, wherever you are,
and however you're feeling, you're welcome to
be here with us. In fact, we're glad you are.
Jesus isn't just waiting for you to clean everything
up before you come to Him. He meets us right
in the middle of our mess. That's where His grace
shines the brightest. So come as you are, broken,
hopeful, questioning, searching. You're not alone.
and you know again like I said earlier we'd love
to stay connected with everybody if you'd like
a copy of that list of potential weapons of rebellion
just send us an email to he redeems us at gmail
.com we'd love to stay connected with you if
you have any other thoughts questions or stories
please share them with us we read every single
email that you send and if this episode touched
your heart or any other episode, we hope that
you'll share it with someone you love, a friend,
a family member, anyone who could use a little
more hope right now. Heaven knows we need more
hope and peace. Yeah, no doubt. Next week we're
gonna talk about how the Savior doesn't just
redeem us, He heals us, He lifts us, He transforms
us in our everyday lives. We're gonna begin a
journey down the events of the atonement of Jesus
Christ and we're gonna begin that next week.
Thanks for being with us and remember there is
always hope through him because you have been
redeemed through his blood. Thanks for being
with us everybody we'll see you next time.