Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another
episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. Scott
Durfey here, joined as always by my better half,
Deb Durfey. What's up, Deb? Enjoying being here.
Hi, friends. Well, here we are. I feel like it's
been a while since we've been together with you
all. And I guess the reason I'm feeling that
way is because it has been a while since we've
been with you all. Many of you have noticed this.
We started a couple of, we've had them going
for a while, but we've just started using them
again. Social media accounts both on Instagram
and Facebook. They're they're under the name
of the podcast redeemed through his blood But
some of you may have noticed that we posted on
there for Memorial Day that we were taking a
break for Memorial Day and for those not in the
US I apologize, but we were taking that break
for Memorial Day as we celebrate here in the
US And it was mostly true. We did take a break
on Memorial Day. We didn't literally break though.
But shortly thereafter, another post, I posted
another post on there, kind of revealing the
real reason that we took that break, Memorial
Day. So, Deb, I think you've got some explaining
to do here. What happened, babe? So we were gonna
actually record on Tuesday, however, I mean after
Memorial Day. However, on Memorial Day at about
one o 'clock in the afternoon, we decided to
enjoy the sunshine and a ride on our motorcycles.
And so we had kids coming at about five and so
about... at noon, one o 'clock, we decide to
get on our bikes and go for a ride. So hang on
real quick. Many of them are thinking, are you
kidding me? Deb has a motorcycle? I know people
think that already. So for those of you who would
like to see it, go look on those Facebook and
Instagram accounts. There's actually a photograph
of Deb on her said motorcycle from a couple years
ago. So anyway, continue, babe. It's when we
were in Fish Lake, right? No, it was actually
up in American Fork Canyon. Oh, there you go.
Yeah, right there at Pine Hollow. Anyway. We
do enjoy riding. I actually got my motorcycle
license, my street license in 2016. Scott talked
me into taking a class with him, and I ended
up kicking his butt in the class. Oh, boy. So
I said, OK, no more riding on back for you, buddy.
You remember I have the power of that here. You
better not edit, because that is the truth. So
I decided I'm not riding Cupcake anymore, I am
riding, I am driving my own bike and I have been
for close to a decade, nine years now. So what
is Cupcake for those of our listening audience
who don't speak sissy biker talk? That just means
I don't ride on the back of Scott's bike. I did
once or twice. I have photos of that. Until you
said come take this course and I said no every
single time like I do a lot of things you asked
me to do. like do a podcast. Yeah. Okay, so anyway,
you bought this motorcycle and we decide we're
gonna go on a ride on Monday. Yes. Okay. And
as we were, we were going down a busy, I mean,
it's Memorial Day and there are a lot of traffic.
So we're trying to get out of traffic. So we're
- Right down University Avenue in Provo. So we're
stop and go, stop and go, stop and go. Lots of
traffic. So we get off the main road from all
the cars and we're following one car and as this
car is got his blinker on to go left I am ready
to open up my bike and go like go go go I love
to hurry I love to ride my bike fast and so I
could see that Scott didn't have his blinker
on he wasn't gonna follow that car so I began
to accelerate and Scott He rides a little bit
more serene. I'm gonna say grandpa style Just
more mellow, but I like to drive really fast
So I accelerate and he kind of swerves to go
straight Well, I'm a little too close to him
and I think I'm in a t -bone him So I panic lay
on my brakes and lay down my bike so and of course
as soon as it happens, I'm mad I do it. I did
have a full helmet on, full face helmet and my
leather boots and I did jump right up. You were
trying to get me to stay on the ground, but I
jumped right up and I was like, dang it, I can't
believe I just did that. Anyways, so. Well, so
she's downplaying it. It was kind of bad. Her
helmet's pretty beat up. We thought she had a
broken foot at least. We thought maybe there
was some broken ribs also. She spent some time
at the hospital on Memorial Day. But I didn't
have an ambulance come get me. No, there was
no ambulance. Our son came and got us. No broken
bones as it turns out, which we were all surprised.
Even our two nurse daughters were surprised by
that. But anyway, you know, you're not hurt badly.
And you're hurt a little bit. You're banged up
a little bit and all of that, but man, it sure
could have been worse. It definitely could have
been a whole lot worse. My leather boots took
a beating. I busted the shifter off on the...
on my foot, that's why I thought it was broken.
It did hurt, and I got some good road rash. I
wouldn't say good, but it's a bad road rash.
It was a good road rash. You got a lot of it,
but it's not good. Yeah, interestingly enough,
I had it. a cute little friend say, did you cry
when it happened? And I'm like, I'm not a crier.
When I get hurt, I do not cry. Yeah, you get
mad. Oh, I get really mad when I get hurt. Yeah.
I'm not a very. Yeah. Well, I find it interesting,
almost ironic that, you know, prior to today,
we've almost exclusively been talking about the
fall. I made a good fall. As part of the podcast.
And now you have your own fall experience on
your Harley Davidson and You know, I guess that's
just kind of the way. it can sometimes go. Our
sweet daughter, Jess, wrote a kind of a nice
tribute to Deb. Which did make me cry. Now, I
don't cry when I wreck on a motorcycle, but when
I read this post, I did cry. Well, and I included
it with the picture on the post for the social
media. And a couple of you have actually, you
know, sent well -wishing emails and so on. And
just a reminder, you can send your emails to
us at he redeems us at gmail .com. But thanks
to the few of you who sent well wishes to Deb,
who read the post, and kind of picked up what
we were putting down there. But yeah, we want
to tell you thanks, right, Deb? Absolutely. I
appreciate that very much. We love our listeners.
But I wanna read, this is worth reading, because
there's some lesson in this. I think Jessica,
she wrote this, our oldest daughter. There was
some wisdom that comes from this. So here's what
she wrote, and it's entitled, Joy is Wrapped
in Leather and Grit. Joy is not always found
in stillness. Sometimes it roars through the
wind, wrapped in leather and grit, and rides
on two wheels. My mother found her joy on a motorcycle,
the open road, the wind in her hair, the freedom
of every mile. That was her sacred connection
of life. But not long ago, she was in a wreck.
She got banged up, bruised, and forced to slow
down. She had to do the hardest thing of all,
receive. rest, let others care for her, offer
herself the grace she always gives so freely
to others. But here's the powerful part. She's
not done. She refuses to let this be the end
of her joy. She's getting back on the bike because
her spirit was never meant to be part. Sometimes
life knocks us down. Sometimes we're scared to
reconnect with the things that light us up because
the pain got in the way. But we were never meant
to give up on joy. We were meant to return to
it, braver, softer, and stronger than before.
So if you've fallen, faulted, or forgotten what
lights you up, this is your reminder, the ride
isn't over. Pretty incredible. Yeah, that was
a sweet post. Yeah, she asked if she could put
it on her page. It was on her page, and I got
permission to use it, but anyway. A lot of wisdom
in that sweet young Jess and she loves her mama
and I love that she put all that in there. So
you're not selling your bike? No, absolutely
not. That was the first thing I said to Deb after
the action is, don't worry, we'll sell them.
We'll sell them both. And that would have been
really hard for me. It's been rare that I haven't
had a motorcycle in my life all my life. And
anyway, she said, yeah, we're not selling them.
So. So let's just kind of do a kind of a real
real very quick recap of where we're at in the
pod in terms of the podcast And we're pretty
much in line where with where we are in our Institute
class at BYU, Deb By the way, awesome kids this
semester, huh? So great. I can't get over it.
I can't get over just how Dad gum, amazing these
kids are. They really are. It's incredible. And
I know we say that every week, I mean, every
semester, but the semester's kind of special.
Anyway, so just to kind of recap where we're
at, we began the season by talking more in season
four here. We began the season talking about
who we are. and whose we are and how identify,
how identity rather matters. Then we got into
the fall, the fall of Adam and Eve, the effects
of the fall of Adam and Eve. We talked about
the two main deaths or the two main problems
rather that come by way of the fall, the spiritual
and physical death. We talked about how even
the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve are actually
part of the plan of happiness. making it so that
maybe we're less critical of ourselves when we
experience fallen nature, when we experience
the natural man, when we experience returning
to things that we said we would never return
to, and all of those things. And then, you know,
the main thing, though, that we really, the main
key doctrinal point, I believe, not just doctrinal
point, but the life saving or kind of life skill
point, I think that we talked about as we deal
with the fall of Adam and Eve, it isn't so much
about the fall, but how that the fall allows
us to see who we are and how much we need Jesus
Christ. I'm glad that we've been talking about
all that because over the last week or so, I've
been struggling a little bit. I've been realizing,
and this is something that I deal with on a fairly
regular basis. It's not just an occasional thing.
It comes up on occasion, but Deb, I'm rebellious.
I shouldn't laugh, but I totally get it. You
totally get that I'm rebellious. I know that.
I get that you're rebellious and I get that I'm
rebellious. You're my wife. Of course you get
that I'm rebellious. I'm not making any major
confessions here. I have none to make. Big sins,
little sins, all of that. But I'm just rebellious.
By nature. Well, I guess so. I think that some
of us... or maybe come with varying degrees of
rebellion just as maybe part of our personality
traits. And I think that maybe I was one of those
guys. And maybe by saying that, that's me just
making excuses for an emotional issue or whatever
that I can't get under control. I don't really
know. I just know that I feel rebellious. I keep
the commandments. I study the scriptures every
day. for extensive periods of time. I attend
the temple. I strive really hard to practice
the principle of charity. I serve other people
both in the church and in Alcoholics Anonymous
and in the community and all those others. I
just try really hard to be a good guy, but I'm
rebellious. There's just something inside of
me sometimes that just struggles with conformity.
that struggles with just being like everybody
else. I'm 62 years old, Deb, and I want to put
another tattoo on my body. Well, I want to drive
fast. I know you do. And go faster than the speed
limit. I know you do. And I don't know. I have
no judgment on that. But I don't know that most
62 year olds think that kind of way. You know
what I mean? A couple other things. For example,
I don't love the second hour of church. As a
matter of fact, I don't like it. And it's not
that I'm not edified when I stay there. What
about when you're teaching? Do you like it when
you're teaching? I especially don't like it when
I'm teaching. You don't like it, or you do like
it when you change? I'm actually teasing, and
I actually do like the second hour of church
most times. When you stay. And there you go.
That's the thing. Sometimes it's just easy for
me to duck out. I was Elder's Quorum president
recently, and we have a new Elder's Quorum president,
Morgan. I love the guy, and we're close friends,
actually, for a lot of reasons. And he actually
said to me semi -recently, man, we miss you in
Elder's Quorum. make sure comments, whatever,
which was just a real loving way of him saying,
you know what, you rebel, get your rear end where
it belongs. Anyway, so I deal with these kinds
of things. I think that maybe we all do. Yeah,
to one degree or another, for sure. Yeah, so.
what's this rebellion thing? We talked about
spiritual death, we talked about physical death,
we talked about how the effects of Christ's atonement
are really the answers to the physical and the
spiritual death, because those are conditions,
basically. What we were talking about there were
conditions. What we're talking about today, when
we're talking about rebellion, it's not really
a condition, it's more of a choice in a lot of
cases. And maybe that's how we would differentiate.
It's not official, I'm not a psychologist or
any of those other things, but maybe that's how
we would differentiate between the spiritual
and the physical death and the effects that come
from those and the effects that come from our
rebellion. Well, and I think it's important to
know that The root of rebellion is exercising
our agency. Agency. I mean, we have this blessed,
wonderful thing called agents. Everybody loves
agency. Everybody thinks agency is a great thing
for themselves. Yep, until you have adult children
and then you don't want them to have agency.
You don't want agency for them. That's right.
Or grandchildren too, sometimes. Yeah, I kind
of want to make their choices. I'm sure my parents
felt the same way. I know they did. Yeah, I get
that. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I talked to
my mom and dad about this semi recently. You
did? Yeah, I asked them, I said, did you guys
feel the same way? And I think my dad about swallowed
his bubblegum. He's just like, oh my gosh, Scott,
of course we all feel this way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
agency is a real thing. It allows us to choose,
you know, God, it allows us to choose sin. We
can resist him or we can choose him. It's all
about agency. That agency is a blessed thing.
until it's not. Yeah, and I think that the agency,
I think you hit the nail on the head when you
said kind of the root of rebellion really is
agency. For sure. That's really where it comes
from, is agency. And we know that agency's an
important part of the plan, but rebellion, that
seems kind of, and I know that not everybody
may feel Rebellion. But maybe there's rebellion
at least a little bit in all of us. Maybe we
should talk about that at some point. Oh, I definitely,
I definitely feel like there is rebellion. I
didn't ever feel like I was a rebel. I didn't
feel like I deliberately because Here's the number
one thing is I would compare. Oh, I'm not as
bad as that person. I don't drive a hundred on
my motorcycle. I'm just breaking the speed limit
a little. I mean, I have these justifications
and these comparisons. So, I mean, it literally
is one of those things that, you know, you kind
of have to put the mirror in front of your face
and take your own inventory and say, gosh, where
am I rebellious? Whether choosing in or choosing
out. You know? Yeah. It's been big for me. It's
been up in my face lately a lot. You know, just
dealing with my own rebellion. And again, I'm
a good guy. So I have a question for you. But
I've been dealing with this rebellion thing.
On a scale from one to ten, where are you on
the rebellion scale today? Today? In this very
moment? Yeah. Well, I know it changes. It's a
slippery scale. Deb, I feel like I'm on the witness
stand here. Don't worry, I have my rubber mallet.
I'm getting pounded in just a second. A scale
of one to 10, how am I on the rebellion scale
today? So what, 10 being very rebellious or 10
being not rebellious? One being not rebellious,
10 being very rebellious. 10 being very rebellious.
So I'm probably... Four. Not very rebellious
today. In some ways. Well, you're sitting here
recording a podcast talking about Jesus Christ.
I know, but I'm a natural man. And I have this
going on. And I don't mean to be flippant about
it. It's not something I wear like a badge of
honor because my rebellion isn't all these cute
things. A lot of my rebellion is dark. A lot
of my rebellion has to do with inward feelings.
The way I feel about myself, the way I see myself,
the way I indict myself for stuff I've done in
the past still. you know, and all of that. But
I can tell you this, Deb, I don't know for sure
where I'm at today, but I do know that when I
do the things that we've encouraged others to
do, I know that when I look unto him in every
thought from Doctrine and Covenant 6, when I
remember that in Alma 7, that everything that
he went through as part of his atonement was
for me so that he would know how to succor me
in all of my afflictions. in all of my pain and
all of my suffering and all of my rebellion and
all of my everything human. And so, you know,
for me, if I can just somehow possibly remember
him and just am able to redirect my focus, and
it's not always easy, I'm gonna be honest. You
know, we teach Institute II, we have leadership
callings, you know, I teach gospel doctrine,
you're the primary president and all this stuff,
and Deb, I struggle. I'm still carnal, I still
have alcoholic tendencies, I still have just,
and sometimes I see myself as being less than
or different from those around me because of
these tendencies. But remember Sunday, do you
remember the sacrament hymn by Chance? I sure
do. Do you? Yeah, I stand all amazed. Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah, so this past Sunday as we were sitting
in sacrament meeting and it was past Sunday as
we were sitting there. preparing to partake of
the sacrament. This has become such a sacred,
sacred moment of my life each week, Deb. And
this relates to my rebellion because if I can
focus on my sacrament experience, if I can focus
on not just renewing covenants, but realizing
that I'm making yet again a new covenant to always
remember Him. to take his name upon me, to keep
his commandments and all of those things so that
I can have his spirit to be with me. You know,
one thing that we'll explore as we go through
the podcast is the importance of the Holy Ghost
in our lives. And I'll mention just now that
one of the reasons that that is so important
in our lives is so many of our apostles, and
we'll get direct quotes in upcoming episodes,
but so many of our apostles have talked about
how the Holy Ghost's job is really to be the
administrator of the atonement of Jesus Christ
in our lives. And so think about it. It only
makes sense that if the offset or the answer
to the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve, which
are spiritual death, physical death, and everything
related thereunto. And it's also now has to do
with rebellion. If all of that, if it was because
of the atonement of Jesus Christ, that can be
the answer to those things, the sacrament experience
has become so really important to me because
of that. Yeah, me too. I think we both go through
Kleenex every week during the sacrament hymn
and then just communing. sacred, sacred, sacred
to me. I think this became the most important
to me, Deb, during the period of time, and there
were a couple of years there, two, three years
there, that my membership had been removed. And
I don't know if you remember, but I remember...
those moments when I would be in sacrament meeting
still and I would still be trying to commune
in the best way I could but not being able to
partake of the emblems and having that privilege
removed I was still able to be blessed I still
felt the effects to a degree of the atonement
of Jesus Christ because those effects are available
to all people but I wasn't under covenant relationship
or that covenant relationship had been paused
at that moment And I missed it. I felt that void.
So as dark and as difficult as it can get today,
it's nothing in comparison to what it was then.
Well, and I think you think about that every
week. I do. I think you think about that every
week, because I remember the first week that
you took partook of the sacrament, and we both
wept. I remember that very, very vividly. Yeah,
I do too. I'll never forget it. I'm feeling rebellious
or when I'm feeling the effects of the fall in
a particularly extreme fashion, any of them.
But particularly this week, for me, it's been
rebellion. I know that if I just focus on him.
and not me, not my rebellion, but focus on Him.
I know that Father Lehi actually hit the nail
on the head here to his son Jacob. And this is
in 2 Nephi chapter two verse three. And this
is true for me and it's true for all of us, but
this is kind of where my focus has been and was.
this past Sunday. So this is 2 Nephi chapter
two verse three and he's talking again to Jacob
and then they're towards about halfway down the
verse, wherefore I know that thou art redeemed
because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer.
That for me is the answer. It's not my righteousness
anyway. Why do I be critical about me? I need
to align with his will. I need to do my best
to keep his commandments. But if I'm feeling
rebellious, it's not my righteousness. It's his
righteousness that redeems me. And I just have
to align with that. And when I do, when I make
that effort, when I'm cognizant of it, and I
just make any kind of effort, then I fill the
spirit. again in my life, typically again in
my life. Have you ever noticed a little bit of
effort gets magnified by him? Oh, yeah. I mean,
I, you know, he does meet us right where we are.
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you mean
exactly? So, you know, sometimes our efforts
to us feel huge and sometimes they just feel
like barely a help, you know. Yeah. But. But
when we turn to Him and when we ask for Him,
He comes to us. When we cry out to Him, when
we ask, He meets us in our mess. He meets us
in our mess. I love that. Well, so we're singing
the hymn, the sacrament meeting, I stand all
amazed, and then that second verse comes. I marvel
that he would descend from his throne to mine
to rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine.
I'm the rebel. I'm the rebel in that verse. We
all are. And he not just, it's actually him who
transforms the rebel. He doesn't just forgive
the rebellion, he transforms the rebel. Well,
there you go. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, maybe
we should talk about what's rebellion then. Yeah,
what is rebellion? So in the dictionary, we read
that rebellion is actually the opposition to
one in authority. Opposition to one in authority.
That is me. Any authority. I'm kind of in opposition
to any authority. That's why you love the second
hour. That's why you obey the speed limit though
I'm proud of you there. If you would have had
as many speeding tickets and license suspensions
as I have because of those kinds of things, maybe
you would be too paid. Oh gosh, I better slow
down. I don't want that in my life. Yeah, I don't
either. They're expensive. And it happened all
before we got married, so you didn't have to
incur that. You incurred plenty of others. Not
that. That rebellion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
you know, it's interesting because I was just
listening to Elder D. Todd Christopherson's conference
talk from October 2024. And he talks about in
there about active and passive rebellion. What's
the title of his talk? Burying Our Weapons of
Rebellion. So he's actually referring to rebellion
as like almost a weapon, to weaponize rebellion.
Yes. It's not a new concept, but think about
that. It's kind of powerful to think about it.
But I remember when we very first started studying
the weapons of rebellion. types of rebellion
that he refers to in this talk. One is active
rebellion, which is open disobedience, opposition
to God's plan, just deliberately making that
choice. And then passive rebellion. And this
was, I thought so interesting, was spiritual
apathy, ignoring God's will. You know, when you
get those promptings, and I'm going to tell on
myself right now, because before we went on that
Memorial Day ride, I had a feeling. you shouldn't
go on a motorcycle ride. And I argued with the
spirit clearly. And so, you know, passive rebellion
is I got this, I'm fine. So I mean, that was
a big aha for me is the, you know, passive rebellion,
because I don't consider myself until I really
take my personal inventory, but I don't say,
yes, I'm rebellious, but really I am. I mean,
I have rebellion in me. I mean, you know, passive
and active. I think it's interesting how you
referred to, and I know you didn't come up with
this idea, it's from the Book of Mormon, but
I think it's interesting that when we talk about
rebellion, that oftentimes we just automatically
go to that phrase weapons of rebellion and Elder
Christopherson's talk. Weapons of Rebellion.
There's a whole lesson that we do in Institute
from the book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness
by Elder Anderson, Weapons of Rebellion. Which
you taught last week. Right. While I was healing.
Yes, while you were beginning the healing process,
right? I think that it's probably important that
we all understand that this is not necessarily
something that... though we should strive, as
we should always strive to overcome our imperfections,
our rebellions, our effects of the false spiritual
and physical death, though we should always be
striving to overcome those things, I think that
sometimes we use our rebellions as a deeper indictment
towards ourselves. Does that make any sense?
So in other words, if it's - Casualness, avoidance,
spiritual indifferences, maybe sins of all -
Yeah. Yeah. Any of those. And so if I have those
and I see it as rebellion, then I can indict
myself and I can take it more seriously against
myself than if it was just something that maybe
I forgot or maybe I didn't mean to, you know,
maybe sometimes I see rebellion as being intentional.
Right. And if it's not intentional, it's not
rebellion, but that's not necessarily the case
according to Elder Christopherson. That's not
necessarily the case, because you just said something
about passive rebellion. That's an interesting
concept, so can you expand on that a little bit?
In his talk, he says, perhaps the more insidious
form of rebellion against God is the passive
version, ignoring his will in our lives. Many
who would never consider active rebellion may
still oppose the will and the word of God by
pursuing their own path without regarding to
divine direction. I am 100 % guilty of this."
And he goes on to say, it reminds him of the
song from Frank Sinatra, I Did It My Way. How
many times have we done that? I'll do it my way.
I got this. Some of my greatest thinking got
me in the biggest messes of my life. Because,
you know, if you really think about how the Savior
lived his life, he literally was always, not
my will, but thine be done. Not my will. What
would my Father have me do? What would my Father
have me do? And what a perfect example to do
that. And I'm striving, trying, to allow God
to be the director of my life. That's one of
the things that I think that we really need to
talk about is that this being rebellious is actually
part of being a natural man, right? So for example,
and we'll just read that right out of Mosiah
chapter three, verse 19, for the natural man
is an enemy to God and has been from the fall
of Adam and will be for ever and ever unless
he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit
and putteth off the natural man and becomeeth
the saint. How? Through the atonement of Christ
the Lord and becomeeth as a child submissive,
meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing
to submit to all things which the Lord seeth
fit to inflict upon him even as a child does
submit to his father. So we're all natural men.
We're all, every single one of us are natural
men. He learned about that when we were talking
about the fall. We're all fallen. And in Alma
42, I think we can use this scripture as kind
of an exclamation point on the last. So this
is in Alma chapter 42 verse 10. Therefore, as
they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish,
by nature this probationary state became a state
for them to prepare. It became a preparatory
state. So talking about mortal life, right? We
became carnal, sensual, and devilish by nature.
So it's in our human nature to be fallen, rebellious,
carnal, devilish, all that, right? But here's
the anecdote, sweetheart. Here's the, kind of,
not kind of, here's definitely the answer to.
our rebellion and we have a couple of different
examples in scripture but my favorite maybe my
favorite example in scripture is right here in
Alma chapter 23 now we all remember Ammon King
Lamoni and the whole story There, I know you
have some great insights around that too, and
I wanna hear those, Deb, but right here in Alma
chapter 23 verse six, and as sure as the Lord
liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many
as were brought to the knowledge of the truth
through the preaching of Ammon and his brother
and according to the spirit of revelation and
the prophecy and the power of God, working miracles
in them, yea, I say unto you as the Lord liveth,
as many as the Lamanites. as believed in their
preaching and were converted unto the Lord, never
did fall away. And then verse seven, for they
became a righteous people, for they did lay down
their weapons of rebellion. So, you know, they
had these miracles, they became converted unto
the Lord, and then they laid down their weapons
of rebellion, that they did not fight against
God anymore, neither against their brethren.
Do you think they kind of had that Jesus Christ
moment? They're like, okay, what would thou have
me do? Exactly. Now these were they who were
converted under the Lord. It's interesting, that
word comes up a couple of times, converted. unto
the Lord. To me, this is the key. This is absolutely
the key. This is the key to me that when I'm
partaking of the sacrament, this is the feeling,
this is the experience that I'm having is that
conversion experience. To convert something means
to change it. Yeah, and I think that's the biggest
piece is that change, that change of heart. When
you take... that willingness and to go, okay,
God, I'm powerless. I'm going to give you all
my tricks and all my weapons and all my rebellions
and I'm going to let you break me up and transform
me and change me into who I am meant to be. I
love that. I love that. And I think it's important
to remember the miracles. in that too because
we have a prophet that said seek and expect miracles
because the power of God working miracles in
them they weren't watching Ammon's miracles they
were they were allowing though God to work those
miracles in their own lives and I think that's
so powerful and all in in verse 13 I think there's
more in there as well. Do you want to read 13?
Yeah, go ahead. And these are they that laid
down their weapons of rebellion, yea, all their
weapons of war. I think it's important to remember
laying down their weapons and laying down their
rebellion, the weapons of rebellion. I love that.
I love that piece. Also in Alma 2419, let's go
there just quickly. This little scripture chain's
kind of an important scripture chain because
it helps us A, see that we're carnal, that it's
part of the plan, that it's part of our nature.
to that through conversion or through change
that can only come in and through Jesus Christ.
So we're not changed. We don't change ourselves.
We're changed or converted by and through him.
That's why I always say conversion is always
more important than testimony. Testimony is important
because it feeds our conversion, but our conversion
is what... happens when we apply the atoning
blood of Jesus Christ into our lives is that
conversion. So this is Alma 24, 19. It talks
about, okay, now that they're converted, where
does the conversion take them? And thus we see.
I love it when we read, and thus we see in scripture.
That means that there's been something taught
prior to that, okay? And maybe it was the miracles
that they got to see. Well, and it is. I mean,
it's everything that we just read. And thus we
see when these Lamanites, were brought to believe
and to know the truth, they were firm and would
suffer even into death rather than commit sin.
And thus we see that they buried their weapons
of peace or they buried the weapons of war for
peace. Yeah, when it puts it that way, it's like,
okay, I'm willing in this moment. You put it
like that. I want peace. Yeah, of course. Who
doesn't want peace? Yeah, I say I do and most
of the time I do but there are times when obviously
I don't Because you know, we all have weapons
of rebellion For sure. And I'll expose some of
mine. I think I already have, but I'll expose
some of mine in a minute. But you know, last
week we taught this very lesson, this very, very
lesson in Institute. I said we. You weren't there.
You were home with your leg up and an ice pack
on it. Red light therapy. We talked about, and
I think this is an important exercise, an invitation
that we should extend to all of us. Deb, you
know this. You've been around and experienced
in the rooms of recovery for even longer than
I have, but one of the things that we do there
as kind of a maintenance step is step 10. Step
10 is continue to take personal inventory and
when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. And
that personal inventory isn't just to sit down
and think about things, you know, most of the
time my sponsor has me and I have the guys that
I work with, you know, kind of do a personal
inventory written out. I have a little book over
there on my desk that's my personal inventory
book. And in it, if I open it up, I would be
able to identify many weapons of rebellion. And
so maybe our invitation to each of us is to maybe
do just a little prayerful, silent, quiet, personal
inventory about what our weapons of rebellion
are, ask Heavenly Father to help reveal some
of them to us. And maybe we can talk about what
some of them may look like. So our Institute
students last week, I asked them, what are some
of your weapons of rebellion? Here are some of
the ones that were brought up. Do you wanna read
a couple of those? Yeah, I think they're interesting
and they're different every semester too. Sloth,
anger, labels. Labels, okay, what about that?
What about, so sloth. Laziness, I guess, we could
use another word for sloth. We could also say
maybe procrastination or whatever. Anger, I mean,
that's a big one. Obvious, probably weapon of
rebellion. Labels? Yeah. I think that's a form
of judgment. Maybe better than, worse than, less
than. If I have a label, is that a weapon of
rebellion? I think it can be. I agree. I think
it definitely can be. Depending on why you're
using a label. Because I love the label of being
a mom. But there are definitely labels like fat,
short, big, tall. Well there are even labels
that we could use as weapons of rebellion that
may seem benign. For example, I refer to myself
as a recovering alcoholic. Could I use that as
a weapon of rebellion? Sure could. Probably have,
you know, if I was honest. Okay, so let's explore
that. How would I use that as a weapon of rebellion,
for example? A justification, for sure. A justification
for what? For being who you are, doing what you
do, saying what you say. Okay, maybe having an
appropriate... Maybe having desires like you
have. Okay. Like, I mean, now you're making me
judge you. You're asking me how you. Who better
to judge me than you though, right? That's not
fair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, labels, the other,
I mean, some of these other ones are selective
discipleship. I think that is so interesting
because there are certain things that we want
to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and there are
certain things it's like, not yet. Dishonesty,
comparison and differences. Fear and pride are
definitely the number ones for I think the human
race, and maybe I'll just say me, and modified
obedience. Modified obedience, I thought that
was really interesting. What is modified obedience?
Well, you know, one of the big ones is why is
it okay for us to drink Red Bulls and not coffee?
That modified obedience is a big one. Or, you
know, the... you know, tuck in a garment so it'll
fit your style or whatever. So maybe modified
obedience is an issue that I deal with in my
rebellion, because as soon as you say that about
coffee and Red Bull, for example, I'm like, yeah.
Yeah, I know, and you're not alone. You know
what I mean? You are not alone. And I'm being
sincere in that. I hear this all the time. I
hear it all the time, because it's way worse
for you. And it indeed is. For sure. I mean,
I just think it's so interesting that every semester
they come up with a different lesson. I remember
gaming came up in one semester. How could gaming
be a weapon of rebellion? Well, I think it's
a distraction. Yeah, so how could a distraction
be a weapon of rebellion? Well, and they even
said their phones. Oh, I 100 % am guilty of that.
I mean, when I go in to read my scripture study,
I listen to a... podcast and follow along. And
sometimes I get distracted on what pops up on
my phone before I get to the podcast. So yes,
phones can definitely be distraction. And before
you know it, you've wasted 30 minutes of time
being distracted. Whether it's your social media,
whether it's a game you play, I don't know, but
it's 100%. Any of it, all of it. Yes. Any of
it and all of it. We've identified some that
were identified by our students at Institute.
They're so amazing. Last week, these Weapons
of Rebellion. Over the many semesters now, and
I don't know how many it is, over the last five
years as we've been teaching Institute, Deb,
and basically the same class each time with a
couple of exceptions. But either way, even then,
we would always teach a class on Weapons of Rebellion.
And I noticed, and I've kind of... I've kind
of taken the weapons of rebellion that we've
talked about over the years and categorized them
into one, two, three, eight different categories.
And so for example, I'll just mention the categories
at a high level. Maybe we can pick one or two
from each of these. Again, if you're interested
in this list. send us an email and I'll send
you a copy of it. Just put in there that you
would like a copy of the potential weapons of
rebellion and I'll send it to you. It's a good
self inventory. Yeah, it's a personal inventory.
Yeah, it just kind of primes the pump. You know,
kind of just gives you some food for thought.
And as you're reading it, you'll expand it. And
as you do, I'm gonna ask you to send it back
with your expansion. added so the first one that
I and in no particular order but attitudes and
dispositions you know there can be weapons of
rebellions that fall under the category attitudes
and dispositions and you mentioned pride you
know refusing help needing to be right all the
time or even what you call them low -end pride
not good enough and not accepting praise or gratitude,
you know? Oh no, no. Because I remember when
somebody told me, my sponsor actually, when she
told me, you know, you never heard the Savior,
when somebody gave him a compliment, say, oh
no, no, no. You did such an amazing job healing
this person. Oh no, no, no. That's low end pride.
He did give credit to the Father. Always, always
gave credit to the Father. Entitlement. That's
another one that, you know, I'm owed, I'm owed
this, I'm owed that. Why am I owed this or I'm
owed that? I don't know, but I'm owed this or
I'm owed that. Again, falling under attitudes
and dispositions. How about cynicism or sarcasm
towards sacred things or just cynicism and sarcasm
in general? You know, we know sarcastic people
and sometimes those sarcasms can be difficult
and distracting from the spirit and those things
can definitely be hurtful and definitely be used
as a weapon. and they definitely create distance
between us and God. You see any others on there
that? Well, I'm going to the next category, which
is spiritual apathy and avoidance, and the one
on this sheet that jumped out at me is ignoring
promptings of the Holy Ghost, because I already
shared that piece of how I had that feeling to
not go on a ride on Memorial Day, but I argued.
I've got a couple of real, and I'm not going
to share them, but I've got a couple of really
gut wrenching experiences about ignoring the
promptings of the Holy Ghost. Yeah, it's not.
It's not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is rebellion.
Yeah. You know, checking the boss box. Oh, so
like religiosity kind of checking the box mentality.
Yeah. Like I did that. I said my prayers. I read
my scriptures. Yeah. I'm still not filling the
scripture or filling the spirit. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. or going to church for the sake of
going to church. We haven't seen you in church
lately. We haven't seen you in church. I used
to hear that, that maybe it would be, we miss
you in our worship or whatever. But yeah, okay,
what else? Gosh, all of these I could probably
go on. Next to the next category is destructive
behaviors and patterns. Destructive behaviors
and patterns. This has been a big one for me.
Behaviors and patterns has been a struggle throughout
my life. Addictions, you know, and you can throw
in others. We've just categorized a few here
of addiction to pornography, alcohol, drugs,
even social media. addiction to drama, addiction
to having to be right, addiction to having to
be the center of attention. Yeah, exactly. So
many of those things. How about anger? Yep, unresolved
conflict. Resentment, I think, is one that could
be on there as well. I think in season one, episode
three or something along those lines, David and
I did a whole episode on fear and anger. or fear
and pride rather. And I shared a story in there
about fear for me and how I really discovered
that fear wasn't really fear for me. I mean,
anger wasn't really anger for me. It was more
about fear. And fear really can be a weapon of
rebellion for me in a big, big way. What else
you see under destructive behavior? Dishonesty,
sexual immorality, passive aggressiveness, manipulative
behavior, emotional withdrawal, uncontrolled
spending. Oh dear, that hit me in the pocket.
Or greed. Gossip, slander. Yeah, there's. How
about, this is a big one in our country right
now. And I think it's maybe all over the world,
but it's big right here in the United States
of America. Division. Yeah, that's hard. Division.
It's us against them. It's even us against them
within us, you know? What's the next? The next
one is misusing God -given gifts. So career obsession,
maybe putting off your family. worshipping beauty,
fitness, or body image, social media obsession,
or comparison -driven identity, using humor.
What's a comparison -driven identity? I think,
well, I mean, my judgment on this, or my definition
on this is my own judgment. I mean, I would say,
because it's my own perception, but comparison
identity is seeing, you know, all these people
that are doing things that and I'm feeling the,
they call it FOMO, feeling left out, fear of
missing out. But seeing that they get to do this
and they're going there and I'm comparing my
life to them or my experiences to them or whatever.
I think that's been intensified immensely on
social media. I think about when I was in, you
know, junior high and high school when you were
in those, you know, influential ages. And man,
if I knew what all my friends did without me,
I would have been a hot mess. Sometimes I just
accidentally found out later, but now everything
is so in our face and everything is so like,
yeah, and I'm really grateful there were not.
phones and proof because man, I would be really
exposed. In today's world, if you're not at a
party, you know immediately. Yeah. Yeah. When
we were growing up, if you weren't at a party,
you may not even find out that the party ever
happened. Exactly. And you were just fine. Yeah.
The next one is fear and control as rebellion.
fear of failure, fear of judgment, fear of vulnerability.
I mean, there's so much perfectionism, rejecting
spiritual risks like repentance, forgiveness,
or testimony. I remember as a young kid thinking,
I'll repent about this later, because right now
I'm actually enjoying this and false beliefs
and inner lies. I can't change, right? God doesn't
really love me anymore. Others are better, more
spiritual. Why should I even try? Well, and I
think it's important to also remember that when
we can't get really gut -level honest, I don't
think we can heal. Literally. That's definitely
one of the points in the Pillars of Repentance
is the ability to be completely honest. Yeah.
Yeah. So important. Yeah. All right, religious
rebellion. So within the church, you know, like
for example, weaponizing doctrine to hurt or
exclude people. Unfortunately, I've seen this.
You know, idolizing a specific cultural view
as gospel truth. You know, we have some cultural
views that have kind of taken on that. gospel
truth persona that may or may not be and those
that can definitely be weaponized, right? Over
reliance on our checklist righteousness. Did
this, did this, did this. Yes, I know. Guilty.
Yeah, valuing tradition over revelation. We used
to talk a lot, David and I, about the difference
between redemption and assimilation. You know,
living in an assimilation where everybody has
to be like everybody else. That can definitely
be. Anyway, those are a few, Deb. I think that...
We've done a pretty good job talking about the
rebellion, weapons of rebellion, how important
it is for us to bury those weapons of rebellion,
the invitation around burying them, that through
conversion, turning to the Lord completely and
letting him change us, that those weapons can
potentially be stayed buried if we bury them
deep enough. Elder Christofferson said, basically
summarized, may we bury very, very deep any element
of rebellion against God in our lives and replace
it with a willing heart and a willing mind. I
love that. I love that too. I love that too,
I also love. In Mosiah, chapter five, this again
part of King Benjamin's address, chapter five,
verse two. And they all cried with one voice,
saying, Yea, we believe all the words which thou
hast spoken unto us, and also we know of their
surety and truth, because of the spirit of the
Lord Omnipotent which has wrought a mighty change
in us. or in our hearts, that we have no more
disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.
So it's by having that spirit, Deb, that spirit
of the Lord Omnipotent, the spirit of the Lord
Omnipotent, which is the Holy Ghost, of course,
in us that will change us, that will change our
hearts, that will create it and make us so we
have no more disposition to do evil, but to do
good continually. So it sounds to me like, The
answer to our rebellion is to have the Spirit
of the Holy Ghost in our lives. Well, and again,
we're gonna go back to the sacrament because
I think it's important to remember those sacred
prayers that talk about being willing. You know,
willingness to follow, willingness to obey, willingness,
you know, and we're not gonna do it perfect.
But I just love the verbiage in there that talks
about willing. Yeah, just willing. Yeah. Just
having a willingness to change. We are willing
to take upon His name. Yeah. Willing, you know,
with that broken heart and that contrite spirit.
I love this promise. This is a promise in Ezekiel
chapter 36, verses 26 and 27. A new heart also
will I. give you and a new spirit will I put
within you and I will take away the stony heart
out of your flesh and I will give you a heart
a new heart and I will give you a heart of flesh
and I will put my spirit within you and cause
you to walk in my statutes and keep all my judgments
and to do them a new heart that's what I want
I just want a new heart. And I think, I know,
in fact, I testify that the only way to get that
new heart is to have the spirit of the Holy Ghost
administrating the effects of Jesus Christ's
atonement in my life. And if I do that, I'm still
gonna deal with rebellion. I'm still going to
have rebellious thoughts, attitudes, feelings.
But when I do, I'm not going to beat myself up
for it. I'm going to recognize it for what it's
it, what it is. It's part of the fall. It comes
by way of agency. Heavenly Father's not surprised
by it. He's not disappointed in me because I
have it. You know, how I act and what I do with
them, that's a totally different thing altogether.
But he's not mad at me because I have them. So,
you know, if I think again, think back to that
song, I stand all amazed that the love Jesus
offers me, confused by the grace that so fully
he proffers me. That's the answer, Deb. He's
the answer. He is definitely the answer. Christ
not only removes sin, he removes the desire for
sin. As we, you know, Spirit leads us to humility,
to that broken heart, to that willingness, our
desires to be more holy. I love the hymn, page
one, two, three, in the old hymn book. Oh, may
my soul commune with thee and find thy holy peace.
I love that hymn because it reminds me that I
am. I am nothing. I am absolutely nothing without
him. I love that. Well, and you know, it occurs
to me. He doesn't just forgive rebellion. He
transforms the rebel. It's through conversion.
It's only through conversion, only through changing.
Conversion isn't the one and done thing. We're
going to talk about that more and more as we
go throughout the season here. That's the answer,
it's all about conversion. So this week as we
end this podcast, we want to encourage our friends
and our listeners, those of you that are with
us, to identify your weapons, identify your rebellions,
and ask the Spirit to help you trust Christ to
do what we cannot do for ourselves. Because He
doesn't make up the difference. He is the difference.
So, as we kinda close today, we just wanna say
that wherever you are and however you're feeling,
you're welcome to be here with us. We love that
you are. You know, Jesus isn't just waiting for
you to clean everything up before you come to
Him. He wants you to come just the way you are.
Like I said earlier, He meets us right in the
middle of our mess. That's where His grace shines
the brightest. Thank Heaven. So come as you are.
broken, hopeful, questioning, searching, you
are not alone. And remember, we'd love to stay
connected with you. So if you have thoughts,
questions, stories, et cetera that you'd like
to share with us. And again, if you'd like a
copy of what we shared and talked about here
today, please let us know that you can do that
at he redeems us at gmail .com. We read every
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Let's get the word out about the podcast. And
if this episode touched your heart, we hope that
you'll share it with someone you love and care
about, a friend, a family member, anyone who
could use a little more hope right now. Heaven
knows we all need more hope. Yeah. Next week,
we're gonna talk more about how the Savior doesn't
just redeem us, but he lifts us, he transforms
us, and he does it in our everyday lives. Thanks
for being with us and remember there is always
hope through Jesus Christ Because you have been
redeemed through his blood Thanks for being with
us everybody. We'll see you next time