Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome out to another episode
of Redeemed Through His Blood season four. This
is Scott Durfey, and I'm joined, as always, by
the beautiful Debra Durfey. What's up, Deb?
Hello, friends. So it's good to be with you tonight,
babe. It's been kind of a crazy day. We're recording
this on a Monday night. We just yesterday went
through a very peaceful, wonderful Sunday experience
partaking of the sacrament. I got to teach a
gospel doctrine lesson on Doctrine and Covenants
46, 47, and 48, which was a lot of fun. I love
doing that because I get to learn so much. But
my highlight yesterday, Doug, was partaking the
sacrament, taking the sacrament. I just look
forward to that every week, and I haven't always.
One of the things that's really kind of, I think,
helped to grow that feeling within me over the
last several years has been doing this, doing
what we're doing here today. It's interesting
because I was thinking of that same thing probably
the majority of the times we sing the sacramental
hymns, you and I both weep, and we pull out our
Kleenex. And a few months ago, we were asked
to speak on the importance of the sacrament.
We did a deep dive into the importance of the
sacrament. And as we were sitting on the stage,
you know, to be, to speak, and they sing the
sacramental hymn, we both just wept. And I think
my first counselor in the primary presidency
said, I just thought something bad had happened.
And I thought, you know, for decades, years and
years and years, I took that sacred, sacred time
for granted. And it was just one of those things
that it's like, okay, let's be reverent, think
about Jesus. And, you know, the deeper dive that
we do into the atonement of Jesus Christ, the
more I really appreciate my Savior. And those
songs are so moving. The words that, upon the
cross of Calvary, they crucified our Lord. I
mean, there's, and then torn broken. I mean,
there's so many words that are so descriptive,
but yet penetrate to the fleshy tables of my
heart. It affects me. Yeah. Why is that the case?
Do you think? Well, I think for one, I have put
forth effort to really understand the atonement
of Jesus Christ. I know for a fact I did not
understand it and I still, I don't claim that
I do understand it a hundred percent, but I understand
it more fully and I've lived. I've lived life,
you know, a few decades, quite a few decades
and I have really had to understand and apply,
you know, Repentance, I really had to redefine
repentance. Understanding it the way I did as
a youth is very, very different. The way that
I understand it today, for the simple fact is
understanding the fall, understanding that we
are here and sin will forever be part of this
mortal world. It will always be part of this
mortal world. And I think understanding that
helped me have a little bit more understanding
for my dependency on the Savior. That's exactly
how it is for me too. Especially today, I have
been just so reflective. Somebody who's really
important to me, who has battled addiction and
the various things that come with it and has
had to deal with the various consequences of
it and so on. Not much unlike myself 26 something
years ago. But this person will be picking up
a two -year medallion tomorrow in alcoholics.
Yeah, exactly. But this person is really up against
the effects of the fall. That's the interesting
thing about this kind of thing, Deb. You know,
so often, and I know that you've also been privy
to these types of experiences, but so often sometimes
we think, well, The fall is coming down around
me and when I say the fall is coming down around
me that can look like so many different things
that we're going to be talking about as you can
tell the fall of Adam and Eve once again tonight.
We may even carry this into next week. It's that
important and we'll talk about you. I think you'll
understand why it's that important as we go through
this, but. As I go through my life and as things
would come crashing down, you know, usually based
on dumb decisions I had made or something like
that. But when life got really difficult for
me and there was just no place for me to go because
I had just burned everything down around me,
so to speak, I knew that I couldn't anymore.
Of myself, I was completely powerless over my
entire life. So I made a decision to turn my
will in my life over to the care of God as I
understand him. And I did that through entering
Alcoholics Anonymous and other recovery programs,
which for me is a way also to access the spirit
and to have those kinds of blessings in my life.
But as I did that, I recognized how broken and
beat up and just beat down I was. And then I
got sober. And then I thought, well, and not
unlike a lot of others, and this is my point,
well, I'm getting sober now, everything should
be fine. Heavenly Father should be blessing me
now. All those things, all those bills I neglected
to pay, they should just go away. All of the
other things that I neglected should just go
away. The relationships that I damaged, they
should just instantly be better. And I know that
there's a bit of hyperbole in what I'm saying
here, but just a bit. Sometimes I think that,
you know, and I've done those rescue type of
repentances as well, you know, where something
goes wrong or I'm compelled for whatever reason
to go running to the bishop and do what I thought
in that at that time in my life was actual repentance,
which I've learned since that it's not, but to
to go running and because my world's crashing
down around me. And then I'm surprised when everything
just doesn't all of a sudden get better. I've
come to find out that the fall of Adam and Eve
is obviously the reason that we deal with a lot
of these different things, but the fall of Adam
and Eve, the offset to the fall of Adam and Eve
doesn't just necessarily sometimes happen in
an instant, in a second, in a night, in a day,
in a week, in a month, and so on. So I have a
question. I mean, you were raised as an active
member of the Church of Jesus Christ. of Latter
-day Saints I should complete. Why do you think
you learned more about the fall and the atonement
of Jesus Christ entering the rooms of recovery
rather than in primary and young men, young women?
Or did you? Yeah, I did. I absolutely did. And
this is kind of key. This is an individual thing.
And I'm not saying this is not a prescription.
I'm not saying that it has and it should be this
way for everybody. because it shouldn't be and
it's not for those. Anyway, the reason that that
actually helped for me, Deb, is for some reason,
I just needed an absolute obvious two by four
to the side of the head that life would give
me by way of my addiction. And you know, it was
a choice. I'm not saying that my there's debate
around this and I'm not going to have it with
anybody. I have my own views on it. But there's
debate around whether this was something that
I had agreed to do before I came to Earth or
not, you know, and various things like that.
And I'm not getting into that. That's not the
point. The point is, is it's not me, it's him.
That was why it was so important for me, I guess,
I don't know, but it was that's why it was so
important for me to get that understanding the
way I got it. Because I just had to absolutely
have absolutely zero question in my mind that
I had any control left. I know that there's a
lot of people who don't need to be bloodied and
pummeled and and I know that but for me I for
whatever reason Personality, I don't know for
whatever reason and again, you know trying to
figure out all the particulars around those things
is just a waste for me understanding The solution
is the is that is the direction for me? That's
the journey right and perhaps I mean going to
the come follow me this last week Maybe the gift
of the spirit I mean some of us learn through
actual events and sometimes we have the gift
of learning through our experiences and some
of us have the gift of learning vicariously through
other people's. That doesn't seem to have been
my lot, babe. Well, you haven't experienced absolutely
everything. I understand. There's things that
you do. I definitely say that. I just remember
asking the question last, you asked the question
last week at Institute about how many of us here
have... have, and I don't remember the exact
question, but something to the effect of can
resist temptation. What was that question? Yeah,
the question was, I asked them, I said, how many
of you find it very easy to keep all of the commandments?
Oh, yeah. And there were a lot of hands. Almost
every hand. I was jaw dropped. I was like, wow,
I think we're teaching the wrong crowd. Yeah.
And then I I don't know did I ask gift of obedience
I I mean I just think of their spiritual gifts
to have that gift of obedience I know and then
you asked another question and I don't remember
exactly what it was, but I you know, I think
understanding that some of us have the gift of
discernment, some of us have the gift of obedience,
some of us have the gift of listening and learning.
Whatever that is, I too am one of those that
get to learn by universal two -by -fours to the
forehead and have life experiences really beat
the ever -loving crap out of me and bruise and
tear me up. And I think that's why those words
penetrate so deep is because I have pictures
now to go with those words. Not to the effect
that the Savior does, of course. But I know what
it's like to be bruised and battered. But you
have a different perspective. Sure. And that's
the whole point behind understanding and learning
about the fall of Adam and Eve is to gain the
perspective that you just articulated, Deb. Right.
Well, and ironically enough, there are days,
and today is one of them, that I am grateful
for my challenges. I am grateful for those things
that I went through that beat the everloving
snot out of me. I really am. Today I'm grateful.
When I was going through it, I was not grateful.
And I really thought I was being picked on, and
I thought I was having a job experience. And
I thought there were a lot of days that felt...
unfair and not fun and not, I mean, I just felt
really picked on. But today when I look back
and I literally can see the hand of God in every
single experience I went through, it's, they
say, you know, looking back you, 2020, what is
it? Hindsight's 2020. Hindsight's 2020. But 2020
was such a crazy year. I don't even like to use
that. You're glad it's in our hindsight. But
honestly, in pushing pause and just reflecting
and seeing why all of those things were for my
highest and greatest good and my learning was
such a gift. And God literally was in those details.
So what makes you different? Because it's different.
Right? I mean, we have to just, let's just acknowledge
the fact right now that not everybody sees it
that way. Not everybody goes through the same
experience and comes out on the other side with
the same glowing optimism today that you have
around your challenges, Deb. So what makes a
difference? I don't necessarily feel that I'm
better or bigger. I don't have that at all. I
don't hear you saying that either. But what is
different? I honestly feel like the difference
is because I had, I like me if I had goodly parents
that taught me as a child. And I knew to seek
for a higher, I mean, there are definitely times
when I made terrible choices and I consciously
knew these were terrible choices when I was making
them. But I knew that also that there was a path
of repentance that I could go on. I didn't think
it would be that. I didn't understand that at
the time. But back to your question, what makes
me different? I honestly can't answer that. You
know what it is for me? What? And I know you,
you'll probably say, oh, yeah, definitely. But
what I think it is is I just, yeah, they're my
own choices. And so when I say. You know, I got
beat up. A lot of people take offense to that.
They're like, you didn't get beat up. You beat
yourself up. So say it however you want it. I'm
fine with it. I don't care. However it is that
you want to say this, you say it the way you
want to say it. But I was so beat up and I was
so breathless and I was so ready to just literally,
and I'm not, this is not hyperbole. I was just
so ready to be done, done, done, done, done,
done, done. And, and That's when I surrendered.
That's when I said, I can't do this anymore.
That's when God stepped in and provided for me
a way to the Savior in that moment. I had I had
that remember last week. We talked about the
gift of desperation It is truly a gift and I
was desperate and a lot of times I think that
there and this is to our listeners for those
of you who are feeling Desperately beat down
and beat up and just I can't do this anymore
The fall of Adam and Eve is just absolutely kicking
me to the curb I just can't do this anymore for
those of you who are feeling that That's the
perfect timing. This is when when we, and Deb,
you'll explain this to us, but this is when our
hearts are broken enough now that that broken
heart, he can enter in. Talk to us a little bit
about broken heart and how all that works and
how this applies to this, Deb. Well, it has been
really clear to me that when... I get down to
that. I get to that point of I am powerless.
Sometimes it's a choice. Sometimes there are
very obedient people that can say, you know what,
I'm going to turn my will and my life over. I
am going to let God prevail in my life. And some
people can do that with just that intention and
choice and prayerfully seeking to let God prevail.
Institute students last week. Yeah, they're so
amazing. I know. But for me, I had to and I maybe
it's because I'm a control freak. Maybe I just
like to be in control. Maybe it's like, No, I'm
good. God, I got this. I'm gonna I'm gonna drive
this boat. I'm gonna And you know, the farther
I drive this boat and the further we get into
the waters of catastrophe and tumultuous times,
the more wreckage there is and the more I hit
the rocks and before long, I'm literally sinking
in the boat. Like, and now all the passengers
or whoever's around me is sinking in this boat.
And I think that's the part that I let go of
the steering wheel and go. Yeah, I can't do this.
So how do we do it before we start sinking? I'm
not really that good at it. Yeah, you're pretty
good at it. Yeah, so here's the thing. Here's
the problem. And this is one of the things that
I think that we all need to think about it. Think
about Deb, you're compartmentalizing everything
that has to do with the fall of Adam and Eve
in a one big kind of dramatic tub. You know,
not everything is that big. You know, we deal
with a lot of stuff that has to do with the fall
of Adam and Eve. It's just everyday stuff, just
everyday disappointment, just everybody just
every day. whatever, you know, injury, illness,
sadness, just everyday stuff. And I'm not saying
sadness should be everyday stuff or illness.
Don't read me wrong on any of that. But I'm just
saying that our worst days don't define us. Our
worst moments in our life, the worst periods
of time that we have lived, that doesn't define
us. You know, our first episode, a couple episodes
ago, we talked about who we are, our identity.
And really, Elder Bednar talked about this several
months ago in a talk where he talked about to
really to get to know Jesus Christ, we have to
understand the fall of Adam and Eve. Well, I
think that that's important. We can take that
even a step further in saying that in order for
Scott Durfee to really understand Jesus Christ
and develop that relationship with him that I
want, I really have to understand how The fall
of Adam and Eve plays its role in my life. Some
of those things can be big. Some of those things
can be small. Much of it has been seemed quite
big throughout my life. And I still have to deal
with some of that stuff. But again, getting back
to our identity, I think that really kind of
helps us to understand how we fit. Yeah. And
I think back to the broken heart, a broken heart
being an open heart. to me means willingness.
And again, in the sacramental prayers, that they
may be willing. And I listen to that word, that's
a penetrating word for me, that it's like, Heavenly
Father, I am willing. Today, I am willing. And
sometimes I have to pray for that desire to let
God prevail. I have to allow Him to, you know,
dictate and when I get terrible news on the phone
or if I have a sad child or a grandchild or a
friend or whatever, that I am equipped with that
letting God prevail, that I can hold the space,
that I can cry. I can cry with them. I can cry
because of the news I've received that I can
endure and move through this mortal existence
knowing that we are all in a fallen place. A
fallen state, right? Yes, a fallen state. Yeah,
let's do a little bit of scripture on that. Let's
go to Mosiah chapter 4. Deb, you talk about fallen
state, and that reminds me, in fact, it takes
me back to remember King Benjamin, and King Benjamin's
giving this long discourse, and he's talking
about the blood of Christ, how it atones for
their sins, and how that men drinketh damnation
to their own souls, except they be humble unto
themselves, and become as little children, believe
in salvation. It was, is, and is to come through
the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, and on and
on. And they just have this wonderful, beautiful.
discourse about Jesus Christ and how he is the
solution. He is their savior. He is literally
everything. When Mosiah chapter four, Deb, will
you read just verse five to start with here?
Yeah. So Mosiah four, five, for behold, if the
knowledge of the goodness of God at this time
has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness
and your worthless and fallen state. I say unto
you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness
of God, and His matchless power, and His wisdom,
and His patience, and His longsuffering towards
the children of men, and also the atonement which
has been prepared for the foundation of the world,
that Thereby salvation might come to him that
should put his trust in the Lord and should be
diligent in keeping his commandments and continue
in the faith even unto the end of his life. I
mean the life of the mortal body. I love that
he declares there, I mean the life of the mortal
body. Not you, not you, your mortal body dies,
right? Right. Verse five, okay. For behold, if
the knowledge of the goodness of God at this
time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness
and worthless and fallen state. Okay, so sometimes,
if I'm reading this right, sometimes, that awakening
of my worthlessness and my fallen state, maybe
that, according to this, for behold, if the knowledge
of the goodness of God, maybe it's the knowledge
of the goodness of God that helps me to come
to that. Maybe it's because I know that God is
so good that it puts an exclamation point at
the end of or in the middle of my trials and
just makes them seem. Huge, right? And sometimes
they are huge. I don't want to diminish anybody's
hugeness because it comes and we all get to deal
with it from time to time. And neither does he
wish to diminish this, diminish it. But he goes
on and he says, God has at this time awakened
you to a sense of your nothingness and your worthless
and fallen state. It's a fallen state. We are
in a fallen state. A state is a place. You can
be in a state of mind. That's a place of mind.
You can be in a whatever, but it's not a trait.
It's not a fallen trait. It's a fallen state.
A trait is our DNA. Our spiritual DNA is heavenly
parents, divinity, joint heirs with Christ forever
and ever. Salvation is free because of the blood
of Christ. That is a trait. My trait is my spiritual
DNA. My state is I'm fallen. And because I'm
fallen, sometimes it creates a difficulty for
me to hone in on and maybe focus on my trait.
clouding it with how big the state that I feel
like I am in. Does that make any sense? Yeah,
it makes 100%. What are your thoughts? Well,
I just go to the very end of six when you say
that. And it just means it means the life of
the mortal body. That's where we're at. We're
in that fallen state in the life of the mortal
body. So 100 short years. That's if we live as
long as President Nelson. But it's like, you
know, literally. I mean, till the end of life.
I mean, we're here in a fallen state with our
mortal body. Then if we go on, let's just do
that in seven. So, you know, here we have identified
our biggest problem. Our biggest problem comes
by way of the fall of Adam and Eve. Was that
designed by Heavenly Father? Certainly it was.
Why was it designed by Heavenly Father? So that
we could understand our dependence on his son,
right? Not on us, but on his son, not our own
dependence, not our... Going back to our nothingness.
Exactly, our worthless and fallen state, right?
And so in seven, this is the man who received
a salvation through the atonement, which was
prepared from the foundation of the world for
all mankind. So for the foundation of the world,
obviously, that was before the foundation of
the world. It was before the fall of Adam and
Eve. So this was part of the plan from the very
beginning, right? The foundation of the world
for all mankind, whichever were since the fall
of Adam, or who are, or who shall ever be even
to the end of the world. So who's the atonement
for? The atonement of Jesus Christ for every
single one of us. Every single one of us. in
spite of and probably better said because of
our pain, because of our separation from. Well,
and you understand that sin being a part of this
mortal world, sin draws us away from God. Yeah.
It diminishes our peace and joy and inhibits
us from receiving heavenly comfort and direction
from the Holy Spirit. So in order for us to like
combat that, we have to say, Okay, well, we're
in this mortal world and we need to seek. We
get to exercise, be willing to exercise our agency.
Eventually, if we grow accustomed to sin and
do not seek relief through the Savior and Redeemer,
we will find ourselves beyond the veil, excluded
from the living with God and His Son. Is that
out of the book? Yeah, this is in chapter seven
of the Divine Gift. What page is that on? Seventy
-three. All right. Yeah, I love that. Well, okay,
good. Let me just read this on the same page.
The Lord then explained one of the primary lessons
to be learned in mortality. it is given unto
them to know good from evil we are blessed with
that discernment wherefore they are agents unto
themselves there is that agency again that we
are willing to exercise our agency and choose
him i love that but it also you know says all
men everywhere must repent so you know, as much
as we're living here and we understand our dependency
on the Savior, we have to also exercise our agency
to turn to Him. Yeah. So important, right? exercising
agency, that's one of the reasons. As a matter
of fact, you know, one of the questions that
is often brought up, I hadn't planned on talking
about this, but one of the questions that's often
brought up is, why would God give two seemingly
competing and contradictory commandments to Adam
and Eve in the Garden of Eden? You know, in other
words, why would he command them to multiply
and replenish the earth and to not eat of the
forbidden fruit. If they didn't eat of the forbidden
fruit, as we read last week in Second Nephi,
there would have been no ability to multiply
and replenish the earth, right? So the duplicity
between those two things has become something
of a bit of a debate among Christian theologians
for a long period of time. An elder, not elder,
but brother Robert J. Matthews actually gave
a talk and talked about how That had to be an
important component of the entire plan. Otherwise,
there would have been no agency. That was the
beginning in the institution, really. Maybe I
misspeak when I say that, but it seems to me
that that's the institution in the beginning
of our real mortal agency is in that moment when
those things take place. And in that moment,
when those things take place, that's what puts
into movement. all of the effects of the atonement
of Jesus Christ. All of them. I love how you
and I can see it this way, and we just recognize,
hey, our life has been broken. But there are
those out there, Deb, who haven't had experiences
where maybe they feel that way. Maybe they're
not as broken. And so where does this... all
apply to me, you know, prophets are fallen, apostles
are fallen, there's no, you know. No one's exempt.
We're all fallible, right? And if I think of
prophets, if I think of ancient prophets, I think
of an ancient prophet, none maybe, maybe a couple,
but none strike me as more worthy than the brother
of Jared. He just was. As a matter of fact, the
scripture says that Jesus couldn't even withhold
himself from the brother of Jared. His faith
was that great. Well, before all of that, the
brother of Jared has this problem. You know,
they have to come to the new world and they're
building these barges out of dishes and there's
a hole in the top and a hole in the bottom and
there's no light. And they know that they need
to breathe. They know that they need to have
air and they would like to have light. And so
the brother of Jared takes this to the Lord,
and this is what he says. He says, Lord, we must
be encompassed about by the floods. In other
words, as they're crossing, the water will encompass
them about. O Lord, thou hast said that we must
be encompassed about by the floods. Now, behold,
O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant
because of the weak. because of his weakness
before thee. For we know that thou art holy and
dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy
before thee. Because of the fall, our natures
have become evil continually. Nevertheless, O
Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we
must call upon thee. And from the we may receive
according to our, that from the we may receive
according to our desires. So he actually says,
our natures have become evil continually. What
does that mean? Our natures have become evil
continually. Well, again. We deal with temptation.
We deal with the effects. It's part of the mortal
world. The whole thing, right? We're in that
fallen state. This is the brother of Jared saying
that. Yeah, yeah. So what makes me think that
I need to work until I can't work anymore, then
I can ask for help? Yeah, well, that's probably
one of those belief systems that we listened
to incorrectly and forgot to ask. and work, you
know, faith without works is dead. And we hear
that cliche a lot. But you know, we can have
all the faith we want, but if we don't get off
the chair and start working or pick up the stones
like the brother of Jared did, or whatever, it's
like there's got to be action. Faith is also
action. The thing that I love about this is that,
you know, really the brother of Jared, he recognizes
and acknowledges that he inherited weakness from
mortality. But he also acknowledges and recognizes
that his identity is that of a divine son. That's
a perfect remembrance. Remembering who we are
and whose we are, but then understanding where
we are. Yeah, you know, and I think also the
brother of Jared gives us a really great example
here, you know, and it might be easy to say,
well, yeah, well, this isn't about sin or about
some big difficulty. It was about a big difficulty.
Really what the brother of Jared realizes is
that we're not our problems, you know, or we
could say we're not our temptations. We're not
our problems. We're not our difficulties. We're
not even our fallenness. Yeah, we're his. Well,
and we don't need to identify as that. Yeah.
Oh, boy. How many times do we say, well, I am
and, you know, well, this isn't filled in the
blank. Yeah. But OK, so let's talk about that
for a second. I say it all the time. Yeah. And
every time I go to an alcoholics anonymous meeting,
I introduce myself as my name Scott and I'm an
alcoholic. Now, they know. And, you know, I mean,
it is because that's part of the customary tradition
there. That's what we do. And they know when
I refer to myself as an alcoholic, and oftentimes
they'll say my recovery dates October 26, 1998,
or whatever the case may be. So there's the presumption
there that it's a recovering alcoholic or an
alcoholic can recover. Why don't you say I'm
a recovering alcoholic? I don't know. Sometimes
I do. Yeah, sometimes I do. I don't think it
matters. I've thought about that, and I have
an opinion that I don't want others to think
that if they say it, that I'm judging them. But
I have an opinion about that. I want to be inclusive.
I want to be the same as everybody else, not
different, not better. I don't find hope in a
situation where I have to rise up to a certain
level. I feel hope in a situation where I'm more
like everybody else. Equality. Yeah. I think
that's how it is for me anyway. But, you know,
so we go to these meetings and oftentimes, in
fact, you've sponsored women in the program,
I've sponsored men in the program. One of my
closest, one of the people that means more to
me than just about anybody else in this world,
he's like a son to me, told me one time, he says,
I'm not an alcoholic. And I said, okay. But he
came later to say, I'm an alcoholic. His identity
changed a little bit. But we get a little bit
confused sometimes around these identities, Dub.
David and I had a conversation last season about
once an addict, always an addict. Dave says,
I don't believe that. I don't believe that you
need to be an addict and say, I'm an addict.
And I don't think that that's how we should identify
ourselves. And I don't want to get into whether
you should or whether you shouldn't. When I say
I'm an alcoholic, I'm not claiming a broken identity
at all. That's not what I'm saying at all. What
I'm saying is when I say that I am an alcoholic,
I'm just acknowledging my mortal nature, Deb.
That's it. It's not a broken identity or an identity
of brokenness. It's a nature of mortality, just
like some of the others. A lot of times, Deb,
when we think about what's our true identity.
I mean, that's really we talked about that a
lot. You know, what's our identity? Who am I?
Who's am I? I mean, that was our first podcast,
our identity, we really get a glimpse of our
identity through the fall of Adam and Eve. Because
if it wasn't for the fall of Adam and Eve, we
wouldn't know that we have a dependence on our
savior and furthermore we wouldn't even know
that that the stories behind all of that we wouldn't
know the story of the pre -existence we wouldn't
know the pillar of creation we wouldn't know
the pillar of the fall of adam and eve we wouldn't
know the pillar of the atonement of jesus christ
we wouldn't have any idea of any of that but
but above maybe all of that we definitely would
have a we wouldn't know who we were or who we
are. Our identity would be really messed up.
Well, and I think it's important for us to have
that connection of remembrance because it is
so repetitive that I think sometimes we say,
oh, yeah, yeah, we lived in a pre -existence.
Oh, yeah, Adam and Eve, which took the fruit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then they fell.
And then now we're here having our mortal experience.
But when we push pause, and we literally feel
of those moments of I am in a mortal state this
hurts this situation these things that I'm experiencing
this story that is happening in front of me right
now is excruciating I don't like when there is
contention I don't like I mean you know so I
think as we as we understand and personalize
that you know, this fallen state is intentional.
And there is, this isn't an accident. This is
just like the atonement wasn't the backup plan.
Neither are the challenges that we go through.
And so oftentimes I have to ask myself, all right,
what do I get to learn from this? Because again,
as I always say, no growing in the comfort zone,
no comfort in the growing zone. It's like, now
I get to learn something. So what is it that
I get to learn? Cause oftentimes I'm not willing.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard this, been
there, done that. Kicking and screaming. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I get it. Well, and I think that
we do need to be careful that we don't let our
sins, our fallenness, our fallen state identify
us. We really need to focus on our trait, not
our state. Right. Right. I love that. I love
that we focus on our trait. Yeah. Because I'm
not my story. No, I'm not. you know this I'm
not a victim I'm not a perpetrator I'm not you
know I I'm not all of those things I am a divine
daughter of God but sometimes it's easy sometimes
it's easy to feel like I am that well our accuser
likes to be the accuser he's not our accuser
he is the accuser and that's the point yes that's
the point and again one of the reasons why we
are so dependent on the atonement of Jesus Christ
to answer the effects of the fall of Adam and
Eve. Identity is so important, knowing who we
are. And we do have this dual nature, right?
We're fallen. We are just fallen. It's like we're
living pure opposition. What did the brother
of Jared say? That our natures have become evil.
Our natures, not that we, but our natures have
become evil continually. And so, you know, Deb,
well, how do you deal with that? You know, that
question gets often asked. So how do you deal
with it? And, you know, we've heard the story
in the past of the of the Indian chief and the
two wolves. I have a little different story.
tonight that kind of goes kind of goes along
with that. So this is about identity and really
understanding who we are and maybe can give us
a little inspiration on how we can deal with
the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve. There
was once a man, a good man standing quietly in
a studio and he didn't even realize it, but he
was being sculpted. Two artists were at work.
One, steady and strong, was called Truth. The
other, shadowy and sharp, was called Lies. Both
had chisels. Both knew his shape, but only one
could touch him at a time. Truth worked patiently,
tapping gently, revealing the divine image beneath
the stone. His hands were firm but kind, revealing
the man's nobility, purpose, and potential. Every
strike was done with love. But when the man doubted
when he feared and when he forgot who he was
he handed the chisel to lies lies wasted no time
he struck with shame carved with criticism and
chipped away identity with whispers like You'll
never change. It's just who you are. You're broken
and Everybody knows it you're a fake the man
winced, but he said nothing Days passed, sometimes
weeks, sometimes months. And until one day, exhausted
and empty, he cried out, who am I really? And
in that moment, he noticed something for the
first time. Truth was still there. Chisel in
hand, eyes full of light, waiting. Without a
word, the man reached out and took the chisel
from lies and handed it back to truth. And the
shaping began again, this time with clarity,
this time with purpose. this time in partnership.
Because the man had learned he is not the stone,
he is the sun. And the sculptor who holds the
chisel matters more than the marble. Wow, I love
that. Yeah. Again, willingness. And deciding
who we are, right? Who we are is very much a
choice. I mean, our choice doesn't really change
the inherent fact of anything, but it aligns
us with the inherent fact that we are sons and
daughters of heavenly parents. I agree. So easy
to get dismembered. So important that we understand
it though and understand the effects that it
has on us and you know last week you mentioned
at the end of the Episode that you know, we should
probably be grateful for the fall fact I think
you asked her the students at Institute last
week how many of you Have actually said a prayer
and thanked Heavenly Father for the fall And
there were hands. I could not believe that. These
kids are beyond amazing. I swear we should sit
in the audience and let them teach us. So why
should we be thankful for the fall again? Well,
for me, being grateful for the fall helps me
remember that there's purpose in all things.
Yeah. And I am here for a really big purpose.
And so when I do fall and I live in a sinful
world, I live in a fallen state. in a fallen
world. And when I realize that I get bad news
or there's things going on, that there is a reason.
These are not accidents. These are not coincidences.
These are not, I mean, some things are, yes,
by choice. When I consciously make a choice to
disobey, there are consequences that come, absolutely.
But the other thing is when I don't make that
conscious choice and there's still news that
comes to me or information that comes to me,
I get to remember, I get to learn something from
this. Being grateful for the fall keeps me in
that thinking celestial perspective. that it's
like, there's a reason. There's a reason I'm
going through this. There's a reason why I'm
seeing this. There's a reason why I have, you
know, there's always a reason. And the reason
why today that I know that is because of my past
seeing God's hand literally at work in my life.
And I thank him every day for eyes to see that
because I know there's a lot of people that have
not been able to see his hand in their life.
But I can tell you, you can see it if you kneel
down and pray and ask that I'll have eyes to
see why I'm going through this challenge, why
I've been laid off for two years, why I had to
bury a child, a parent, a sibling, whatever,
a spouse. There is so many things that we will
just not know the answer to. in this mortal existence.
I remember listening to a conference talk about
mortality works. In October of 2024, Brooks P.
Hales gave a talk about mortality works. And
he talked about, I mean, the overall... thing
was despite the challenges we all face, our loving
Heavenly Father has designed the plan of happiness
such that we are all not destined to fall. Just
because we're in a fallen state does not mean
we're going to fall eternally. I loved that.
I loved that talk. I loved that hope and he talked
about a sister who had been through so many challenges
and how she Anyway, came back and said, you know
what? It's all in divine order. Mortality works.
There's a reason for all of this. And I love
that. So that's why I think we should be grateful
for the fall. And I agree, you know, I'm with,
you know, Nephi when he in Second Nephi 4 says,
Oh, wretched man that I am. And he goes on and
talks about that. And then he and then he says,
Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
And that's that's how it is for me. You know,
I've definitely been a wretched man. I've been
no Nephi. Don't get me wrong. Make no mistake
about that. However, I have been a wretched man
and I also know in whom I now trust. And I'm
thankful for the fall, Dub. If it hadn't have
been for that, if it hadn't have been for my
personalized experience with the fall, and I
think that's important. My personalized experience
was not the same as your personalized experience,
and it wasn't the same as my brother Mark's personalized
experience, and it wasn't the same as any of
my other siblings, and it wasn't the same as
my parents, and it wasn't the same as, and others
will say, yeah, but Scott, you made those choices.
Okay, I made those choices, but it was my personalized
experience of the fall. that has given me the
depth of gratitude of for and towards our Heavenly
Father because of the gift of His Son. And what
a gift that is to so many that are trying to
fill that gap from their despair, their choices
in getting in the world of addiction. and alcoholism,
and to be able to see and listen to what you
share that offers nothing but hope. I don't know.
I think for so many of us, you're no different.
Most of us are just no different. We live and
die by comparison, and we know that comparison
is the thief of joy. And so I compare my fallenness
to the fallenness of those around me. And though,
especially the fallen, you know, and I hesitate
to say it like that, because I don't see anybody
around me is particularly fallen. I'm just acknowledging
that we're all fallen and living and continue
in living, experiencing evil continually or whatever
it said. I'm just acknowledging that. But, you
know, I think sometimes that by comparison, I
look at my fallenness and my experience with
the fall and I judge it because I think others
are too probably. which is so wrong, but I probably
do, right? I mean, that's probably the truth.
And so because I feel like somebody might be
judging my experience of the fall or that my
or let me back that up because I'm judging and
comparison by comparison and contrast my experience
of all of somebody else's and the way that I
think I see them responding to those experiences.
I don't see them really, but the way I think
I see them responding to those experiences that
creates even a deeper fallenness for me. Does
that make sense? Absolutely. And I think also
it intensifies when we put out on social media
all of our you know, that facade of perfection,
of look at me, look what I did, look what my
kids do, look where we're going, look how, look
what we're eating for dinner. I mean, it's, it
intensifies by, cause it's like, wow, I had a
peanut butter sandwich, you know, kind of thing.
But that comparison is a real mortal experience.
That is, you know, as, and yes, we can look at
it and be happy for people and, but in the, in
this, in the reality of it, It's like, well,
what can I put on my social media that's going
to show that? Again, and I call it the facade
of perfection, because as much as I say we don't
put our... are negative things on there, they
do. I mean, there are negativity on there. We
can talk about that another time too, because
that becomes somebody's identity often too. Right.
And there's payoff to that identity. I have been
known to identify as, you know, poor me and look
what happened. And I get it. I understand it.
But in the same sense, it's like, I have got
to stay completely vertical and not compare horizontally.
That's it. That's it. Like where is my identity?
It is straight vertical. It is asking him Remembering
him easy to say that when we're talking in our
little space down here on a podcast It's a totally
different story when we walk out that front door
in the and the world hits us in the face Because
that's just how it is for all of us and it's
gonna be that way for all of us again I mentioned
I kind of started earlier. I've been feeling
particularly fallen this past week. I have just
been feeling the effects. Physically, I have
my health hasn't been amazing. It's been pretty
challenging. There's just that and overwhelming
with work and kids stuff and just so much potential
things, so many things to potentially worry about.
There's only one thing that our focus should
be on. Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not.
Fear not. That's so much easier said than done.
Yeah, let's just do the whole scripture, and
this is a good one to end on. So this is in Doctrine
and Covenants, section six. Verse 36, right?
You probably haven't memorized, sweetie, do you?
Verse 36. Look unto me in every thought. Doubt
not. Fear not. Behold the wounds which pierce
my side and also the prints of the nails in my
hands and feet. Be faithful. Keep my commandments
and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven And
I think we can inherit the kingdom of heaven
a little bit at a time and in small increments
here, Deb I think sometimes we can feel peace
in the storm. I think that sometimes we can feel
calm in our worry I think sometimes we can feel
Comforted in our physical and mental and emotional
pain. I think that sometimes we can and on and
on it goes on and on it goes. Yeah. You know,
Sunday I was listening to a homecoming talk and
it was mentioned in there that they pray every
single hour. Yep. And I thought, wow, that is
a committed reflection of prayer. And it just
came to me, I thought, you know what? I'm going
to put. DNC 636 and 37. And I'm going to read
that every hour. I think that is something that
resonates with me to look unto me in every thought,
doubt not fear not. That would change me. That
would change me. And again, when he's inviting
us to look to him, where is he inviting us to
see him? Yeah, in the Garden of Gethsemane. On
that cross. out of that tomb because there's
so much hope. And I love that he kept the scars
on his hands to be reminded of what he truly
did do for me and for all of us. We worship a
God with scars. Well, anything else, sweetie?
We'll continue this obviously next week again
a little bit. It's just so important that we
understand. our personal roles in the fall, our
personal experiences of the fall of Adam and
Eve, and that we see them as personal, we know
that also Christ's atonement for us was personal.
It's part of the plan. Yeah. This is part of
the plan. And I think when I was able to embrace
it and go, it's all in divine order. It's all
in divine order. It's all in divine order. I
keep saying that. Yeah. And I look unto him in
every thought, doubt not, fear not. Well everybody
thanks for being with us tonight as we close
out today We just want to say with it wherever
you are and however you're feeling you're welcome
to be here with us Jesus isn't just waiting for
you to clean up everything before you come to
him He meets us right in the middle of our mess,
which is glorious. That's where his grace shines
brightest So come as you are broken torn hopeful
questioning searching. You're not alone And we'd
love to stay connected with you as I mentioned
earlier in the podcast If you have any thoughts
questions stories or anything else to share,
please send us an email You can do that at he
redeems us at gmail .com We promise to read everyone
and respond to as many as is appropriately possible
And if this episode touched your heart We hope
that you would share it with someone you love
and care about a friend a family member Anyone
who could use a little more hope right now? Next
week, we're going to talk more about Jesus Christ,
our Lord and Savior, how he doesn't just redeem
us, but he heals us. He lifts us. He transforms
us. He helps us overcome the effects of the fall,
and he does it in our everyday lives and in our
everyday struggles. Thanks for being with us,
friends. And remember, there is always hope through
him, because you and I have been redeemed through
his blood. Thanks for being with us, everybody.
See you next time. you