Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.
This is Scott Durfey here joined as always by Uncle David Durfey.
What's up Dave?
How you doing Scott?
Still don't have my voice back.
Well there's a reason for that.
Dave I don't know I just kind of feel like I need to tell you how much I have enjoyed
doing this over the last few years.
That's awesome.
This has just been an absolute joy.
I look forward to it every week recording it and putting it out and I really have enjoyed
our input and feedback and comments that we get both negative and positive from our listeners.
Just really appreciate it.
Grateful for you.
Your path has been a little different than my path and yet here we are together at the
same point and that's all that really matters but it's great that we have different perspectives
and experiences and great that you have all the equipment to do it.
That's a good point.
I can do it without you.
So you know really I mean it's a blessing for me as much as it is for you or more to
be able to do this.
You know an old crow you know what is the old crow know.
There's a poem about that Robert J. Matthews used to always share that poem in his later
years and what the old crow knows is that he doesn't really know anything.
He has so much.
Really you say this and now I know what he meant.
The older I get the more I know the more I know I don't know.
That's really true Scott.
So much more I need to learn.
Been getting some big time glimpses of that my own life over the last several years as
well that's for sure.
So I'm really grateful for the last several episodes.
I think this might be our concluding episode on this maybe a little mini series of why
I believe and why do I choose to stay.
You mentioned earlier that you've had a lot of comments.
You've gotten a lot of emails and I've gotten a lot of comments about how people really
have enjoyed kind of this format and the way we're doing it.
You know as a matter of fact Dave last week in Institute it was brought up and it occurred
to me to say this to them.
You know if we don't really focus on why do I stay.
Because you know this is maybe something that maybe for a lot of members of the church especially
you know those who are a little longer in the tooth in terms of their membership.
By that I mean those who have been members all their lives and you know have gone through
all the policy changes and changes in the temple and changes around ministering and changes
around the time we meet for church and you know and just all organizational changes.
Oh yeah just all these things no more high priests.
I remember when we had a 70s group with me you know and that changes procedures just
changes all the time.
So many changes.
But what it occurred to me to say is that if we're not intentional about staying then
we are by default we're slipping a little.
We may not be drifting as the word drifting.
We're just drifting.
And if we're drifting you know and it's really easy to drift.
Last episode we talked a little bit about assimilation and how we become a part of a
culture and by becoming part of that culture we all look alike and we all sound alike and
we all do alike and all those things which is fine I guess you know.
But when we talk about that and then we see that you know maybe there's a lot more to
it than just that.
Maybe what we've been talking about the relationship with deity and coming more fully to him and
really beginning to understand him and the true points of doctrine really create an intent
for us to stay.
And then by doing that then we're more solid and when I'm more solid in that then my confidence
waxes strong in the presence of God too Dave.
Yeah you know it's really I think critical Scott.
What we've been really trying to say is that instead of looking horizontally we should
be looking vertically.
That's what we're really saying.
Right.
Instead of looking at what other people are doing around us that's assimilation.
We should be looking vertically.
That's redemption.
Deb my wife and eternal sweetheart is really good at pointing that out to me and to others
you know there will be times maybe not so much recently but there are times when you
know I may not be a hundred percent where I need to be and she'll often ask you know
or even as she's doing her own her own inventory she'll often say I'm just not vertical I just
need to get my relationships more vertical than horizontal.
Yeah.
Yep.
That's that's I think what we're trying to say here.
So instead of drifting down the river of complacency sometimes with a paddle sometimes not.
Yeah.
Like we're on some sort of an inner tube.
Yeah.
And we go wherever the wherever the currents sometimes we're getting paddled wherever the
currents of culture take us.
We need to be we really do need to be intentional about we really need to sit down.
You know everyone every individual should sit down and say why do I choose to stay why
do I believe why do I believe what do I believe.
Yeah.
You know and and really to take some time and and increase their awareness and mindfulness
and intentions about their beliefs and their faith.
I know we call it a faith crisis Scott but I I still believe so much of it's a fear crisis
fear of missing out fear of what are what are what are others.
Why are others leaving what you know there's a sense of panic.
Sometimes I feel it in myself I think and I see it in the eyes and then the and I hear
it in the voices of others you know about did you know so and so left the church.
Did you know you know on and on and and I think it's a not a faith crisis it's a fear
crisis and people are afraid well they find out something new about church history and
they go oh no the church must not be true.
Did you know that this happened and they've been lying to me about it.
Yeah exactly and they they go off on this this fear crisis that it might not be true
because of some church historical event.
Oh man Scott I can't I can't base my testimony on history.
I can only base my testimony on doctrine and upon the scriptures and I know history influences
all that.
I can't get that but I can't I can't judge history but I know that the Holy Ghost can
can teach me doctrine and I know what the Holy Ghost feels like and I have been I love
church history and I have been in historical sacred places and I felt the Holy Ghost verify
and bear powerful witness that events that happened there that the Prophet Joseph Smith
and others said happened there that I received a witness that they happened there.
Then I know that there's been lots of messy problems and events and things happen in the
church because it's it's a it's a human organization even though it's by divine revelation.
And I read about a or learn about a leader in the past who has done something questionable
questionable by who and again I don't want to get into any of this but has done something
questionable or who has made a mistake or who has this or that.
It has a quite a different effect on me than I think it does others day because I look
at it and I'm like thank goodness thank goodness because we have never claimed perfection or
infallibility among any of our members especially our leaders perhaps you know and so when I
have read about or seen or learn about things that maybe don't just exactly set real right
with me I'm I'm almost a little bit grateful because I have created in my life a lot of
things that just don't set right with people.
And if God can be with it okay with it with them then I know for sure he can be with me
too.
Oh it's throughout the scriptures Scott the prophets throughout the scriptures make mistakes.
They fail.
I'm glad they they're not always right on and they're not always right and they're not
always successful and God teaches them and God leads them but God allows them to make
mistakes you know when Nephi cries out old wretched man that I am he's not just blowing
smoke or having a bad day.
He know he's not.
He knows that he's wretched and and we all are sometimes I think we just we set up these
certain ideals and we often talk people off talk about the gap well sometimes that gap
is is just more imagined than it is even real because some of the ideals and the standards
we set up are just anyway.
Yeah.
So I'm I'm grateful we're talking about this too and we we kind of did an outline right
we went through Roman numeral number one number two number three and talked about that in
our past podcast and and there is a Roman numeral number four on this outline of why
I choose to stay and it's and I just called it true points of doctrine.
I love that phrase that's a quote from a third Nephi twenty one verse six that there are
true points of doctrine.
This is just kind of this is an important but it is to me but it's it's not critical.
There's doctrine the word doctrine Scott is always positive in the scriptures and it's
always singular.
The word doctrines plural doctrines are always negative in the scriptures and I've I've kind
of noticed that it talks about the doctrines of men and devils but there's only one doctrine
right and that is the doctrine of Christ in the I just and I love that so when I talk
about doctrines plural I talk about points of doctrine instead of using the word doctrines
in plural sense.
I love I love the way it's described here in a third Nephi twenty one six true points
of doctrine.
Well because of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the restoration there are so many
true points of doctrine that are unique and very special to me that I I if I ever went
away if I ever choose to walk away I would be I think walking away from these points
of doctrine I don't I don't see how some people say that they can throw away the restoration
but they can hold on to certain truths that are the result of the restoration.
I don't know my mind doesn't comprehend that to me and if you walk away if you say if you
say it's not true then you got to leave that doctrine behind for me I'm not willing I'm
not willing to leave that doctrine.
I think I have how many of I listed there two four six eight ten ten different points
of doctrine and we've talked about most of these throughout the podcast the last few
podcasts and I don't think I need to reiterate them but let's let's just go through these
quickly the relationship of the father son and the Holy Ghost it's all about relationships
and talk a lot about that last podcast the new and everlasting covenant and that there's
a whole there's a whole thing in the October twenty twenty two and Zine President Nelson
training General authorities on the new and everlasting covenant everybody should read
that and that's an ancient covenant and it's a new restored covenant and it's one of my
favorite parts of the restored gospel is the new and everlasting covenant the salvation
and protection of children meaning that we believe that children are not not only saved
if they die before the age of eight but we believe Satan can't even tempt them before
the age of eight doctrine and covenant section twenty nine so nobody understands the real
true point of doctrine when it comes to the salvation and protection of little children
Scott this is one of my favorites because I have you know we have buried three stillborns
we my wife and I look forward to raising those three little boys in the millennium others
of our listeners I know a few of emailed me about that who have known that our experience
because they've had that similar experience or witness and no one else no other church
no other religious organization knows anything about the death of children or the salvation
of children that is the result of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ
right I'm not leaving that yeah I know that's true families can be together forever Scott
I this this this one amazes me if I started another church okay let's say I became possessed
and and I not that I'd have to be possessed to start another church but if if I just went
off the deep end and and I started another church you know the first one of the first
points of doctrine I would set up in my church families can be together forever but nobody
ever has done that right I don't I don't get that I I know what Matthew twenty two says
and and why some people scripturally believe that families can't be together forever couples
can't be together forever and yet wow I am so grateful for that restored doctrine Scott
that families can be sealed together forever such an important point of doctrine no one
else believes in the premortal existence you know the it's ex knee hello in in Catholicism
and Protestant religions they believe in ex knee hello which means God created it out
of nothing did you ever exist before you were born I think most people believe that but no
other church teaches it I mean just that point of doctrine the premortal existence Scott
is I and it's taught in the scriptures throughout the scriptures and nobody else believes it
so the premortal existence and and who we are our divine identity is as spirit sons and
daughters of God no one else understands that nobody gets it the fall was part of God's
plan not just that there was a fall but that it was part of God's plan that he planned
for there to be a fall and the effects of the fall and the purpose of our mortality
that's all an important point of doctrine that I I can't leave well I want to talk a
little bit about the fall that to me that's a real critical one you know it seems to me
and I we talk a lot about this in our we talk a lot about this in our institute class that
the Christ atonement is really the offset to all of the effects of fall of the fall
of Adam and even if that's the case and Heavenly Father knew that the fall actually the fall
became part of his plans one of the pillars of eternity we know that right and so it helps
me to understand Dave that if the falls part of his plan then then so was maybe perhaps
some of the challenges that I've taken on in my life and if that's the case then Heavenly
Father's not mad at me and that's kind of important to me to understand that that's
the case so then we move into the atonement of Christ and the details of the events and
the effects you know nobody I think understands really the effects of the fall or excuse me
the effects rather of the atonement of Jesus Christ quite like we do either you know we
understand that that it was because of the through the through Christ's atonement his
effects can help me strengthen me can help redeem me well that they don't help redeem
me they do redeem me and they can compensate not just me and this one's a big one for me
too I pray for the compensation of the spirit in those whom I have harmed who I've offended
who I've hurt in any way who because of any actions or words that I've said Heavenly Father
through through the atonement of Jesus Christ can help compensate even them I love that
and then you know we all have this so this is H we all have the potential all of God's
children have the potential for exaltation and eternal progression again to be errors
again nobody understands the the doctrine of eternal progressions God that we can become
like what kind of a father does not want his children to become like him and you know there
were a lot of early Christian fathers who believed that and taught that yep in 200 AD
but that was lost and then now that that is one of the first things anti Mormons love
to to speak about is how we believe that we can become like our Heavenly Father Scott
we will never be equal to God it's not about being equal to him he will always be our God
we will always worship him he will always be our Heavenly Father there will always be
a hierarchy there and a level of respect and relationship that's not going to change it's
not about being equal to him that's not what we teach we teach that we can become like
him that we can progress and that he's progressing I know he's sovereign I know he's all present
I know he's all knowing I know he's all powerful but he's still progressing we believe in eternal
progression as his children progresses he progresses and there is anyway I think that
doctrine has been so misunderstood and an overstated we don't believe we can become like him we
believe that he is willing to share with us everything that he has but to be like him
doesn't mean that we will be equal with him number nine divine authority by direct revelation
that's David O. McKay Thomas S. Monson used to love to quote that that the thing that
sets our church apart from all other churches this time I can hear Thomas S. Monson's voice
right now quoting David O. McKay the thing that sets our church apart from all other
churches is divine authority by direct revelation that's a pretty good general synopsis of of
of who we are really is that their priesthood keys have been restored by divine messengers
and that we believe in direct revelation personal and church revelation general revelation and
prophetic revelation and that we really do need as God has proven over and over again
right the great scripture in Amos God will do nothing except he reveal it through his
prophets that we have a need for prophets right that that's how God communicates with
his children that there's an order and there's a law there about revelation and prophetic
callings anyway and the last one number ten is the gift of the Holy Ghost in his constant
companionship which I think we talked about last time those are the four bullet points
with sub bullet points under all of those and sub bullet points under those of why I
choose to stay and it's it's caused me to reflect over the years of maybe why do some
people choose not to stay you know I I have I've wrestled with it I've thought about it
I don't want to I don't condemn or I can't judge anyone I don't know their circumstances
I don't know but there is this continuum that seems to me Scott on the low end some
people just you know we have three parables of Jesus in Luke 15 in Luke 15 there are
three parables and these three parables are a good place to start because Jesus taught
them about why people leave and we have the parable of the lost sheep the parable lost
sheep the sheep just wanders away okay that's that's the low end of the continuum the sheep
just he he just wanders away he gets distracted he doesn't stay intentional he doesn't stay
intentional he he doesn't pay attention he's not mindful he drifts away he becomes casual
in his relationship with the water on some patch of grass yeah over on the other side
of the hill and the sheep move on and he gets lost that's that's one yeah and then you have
the lost coins where the woman drops the coins there's a certain relationship to I thought
I've always thought of the woman as being the church and there's some relationship that's
got a right between the church and these coins and the choice coins get dropped and they get
lost they get lost in the cracks they get offended they're offended or they offend or they get
the they don't they don't fit in there they're not they're not into the culture they're not
into the and so they they stay away as my grandpa you know my grandpa Taylor he got he got dropped
I think he dropped himself but he he got dropped and never came back so anyway there's this
there's this parable about the lost coins and then you have the prayer for a parable
the protocol who sells out sells his birthright yeah wants to go feed him doesn't want to but
ends up feeding with the swine ends up feeding with the pigs eating with the pigs which is
the ultimate ultimate non kosher wicked thing to do is to have pigs for a Jew to be not just
feeding eating pigs but feeding with the pigs with them anyway but he comes back and all
of these can't come back we know that all those who leave can't come back in fact Scott
is my opinion I believe most who leave will come back I mean there's I don't know if people
pay even pay attention to this but there's lots of articles about so many hundreds I
read an article the other day describe the title of it was hundreds who have come back
I believe most of those who leave will come back right but the the other extreme of this
of this continuum from the lost sheep being on the other lost coins in the middle and
then the prodigal who wants to go live a life of sin and and bases his his testimony upon
the standards that he's willing to live and you know ends up not believing or not loving
his father or wanting a relationship with his father because of the life that he chooses
to live is in rebellion lives at once to live a life of rebellion that's the other continuum
and there's everything in between right there's everything in between you know in our in our
culture today in the church there are so many who I think who leave because they they have
a loved one who leaves that that that's that's troubling to me I've had I've had a child
who's not in the you know who's not actively who's not actively in the covenant I have
I have a child who says he's gay and who has he actually attends church and seems to love
the church but he there's so many who leave because of their children or their loved ones
friends or others who leave or who are offended or her who feel like they're they're marginalized
by the church or they're looked down upon by the church or they're judged by the church
misjudged by the church I I don't that doesn't change the doctrine that doesn't affect my
testimony I don't my testimony is not based on the church my testimony is based upon the
doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and I'm not even saying the church is wrong
or right in any of those instances I'm just saying the policies and procedures and standards
are not what I base I choose to base my testimony on it's based upon doctrine and anyway so
I know that there's many reasons why why people leave anyway I've got a I have tried to fairly
list some of those you know there is an interesting scripture that we should turn to and doctrine
come in section 50 on this point there's a lot of people who leave the church because
of hypocrisy I know there's hypocrisy in the church I I see there's hypocrisy in me we're
all hypocrites yep we all don't live up to our beliefs and and that's why we repent and
we don't see we see how people live but we don't always see them repent right so there's
many who leave who leave the church I know because they they feel like the the hypocrisy
in the church is too great for them and and so they they they live they leave and do their
own thing but I've always loved this verse in section 50 and let's start with maybe
verse 5 Scott and read through verse 7 but blessed are they who are faithful and
and endure whether in life or in death for they shall inherit eternal life no those who
are faithful and endure right but well unto them that are deceivers and and hypocrites
for thus sayeth the Lord I will bring them to judgment behold verily I say unto you there
are hypocrites among you who have deceived some which has given the adversary power but
behold such shall be reclaimed so many leave the church because of hypocrisy and I always
think of this scripture when I hear of those individuals who have for whatever walked away
because they perceive of the hypocrisy in the church which is always going to be there that's
not change it right long as we got to leshiel beings in the church there's going to be hypocrisy
as long as I'm in the church there's going to be hypocrisy same we're all we're all we're
all sinners helping sinners those who leave because of hypocrisy I love this promise shall
be reclaimed that's the compensatory powers Scott of the atonement of Jesus Christ that's
the atonement of Jesus Christ has got them covered them we've all been offended we've
all been hurt we've all been treated unfairly unjustly in the church out of the church it's
life the atonement of Jesus Christ makes life fair the atonement of Jesus Christ will reclaim
those who have left who have been unfairly used abused offended or hurt because of the
hypocrisy in the church I I know that's true so again thank God for the doctrine and our
understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ and the mercy and the grace of God and nobody
believes in mercy and grace more than we do I mean just take the doctrine that we just
talked about in regards to children it 200 years ago the infant mortality rate was was
50% 50% of children didn't make it to the age of eight I think it was actually 48 point
something percent based on the research I read how many of God's children will be in
heaven based on that point of doctrine well nobody believes in more grace more mercy nobody
believes that that the redemption is so universal among God's children than we do and even those
who die who rejected the prophets according to the revelation Joseph F Smith's revelation
of redemption of the dead in doctrine covenants 138 those who rejected the prophets will be
taught the gospel and they can repent and Lorenzo snow said that the conditions in the
spirit world Scott are a thousand times more favorable to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ
than it is on this earth and that very few would not receive it well a very few are not
going to receive it and how many again of God's children will be in heaven who believes in
more grace and mercy than we do no one no one and that's an important point of doctrine
of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ yeah so there are lots of reasons I know why people
leave but I just want to testify and be a witness of the mercy and grace of God for
those individuals then that I think very few of them will not come back in time and eternity
I know there will be sons of perdition I know that the celestial kingdom will be full of
of people who want to experience that level of glory and there will be several of God's
children who choose to go the terrestrial kingdom and they'll be comfortable there and that's
kind of what it's about right is who do you want to have a relationship with and who are
you comfortable with that's where that's probably going to determine where you where you go in
the afterlife is who do you want to have a relationship with so I know that but I I believe
most of heavenly father's children based upon their premortal existence and and God's plan
that most of them will end up in the celestial kingdom anyway so there are lots of reasons
why people leave and there's lots of ways that those individuals will make it back on
the covenant path and be redeemed and there's always hope everything to hope for now so
Scott let's let's move on and I just know it's been a while ago a year ago maybe I have
someone that I love and care about who was who was considering walking away from the
church that's kind of quote I think from them that they were going to walk away for a while
and so after having a really sweet wonderful conversation with them and I decided that I
would come back and to my home and try to put into words my perspective of how I saw the
gospel of Jesus Christ that might be helpful to them to see the gospel of Jesus Christ
in a different sort of way I mean they they had frankly gotten caught up into the the
culture of things and they had some loved ones who had left the church recently who you
know they they other friends family members who had walked away who had maybe quit quit
wearing their sacred garments and rejected some anyway they'd they'd left the church really
not necessarily membership they just had walked away and so they were thinking about walking
away and I I just really wanted to try hard to say listen this is this is my perspective
on why I choose to stay and this is why I choose to live the gospel and this is why
I choose it's all a choice this is why I choose to love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ
and I ended up being I think 14 different perspectives so let's should we just go through
the yeah yeah and I don't know if you want to read them Scott well yeah let's just read
the first part of each one of them and then maybe we can point out anything that seems
pertinent or important it's all important but maybe pertinent at this time but so the
first one is is our relationship with Jesus Christ should always take precedence over our
membership in the church we spent a whole almost an entire podcast last last episode
talking about that David but are there a couple of points maybe in here that you feel like
that maybe we should re-emphasize it just depends on your focus yeah what do you choose
to focus on if you focus on the people and on the culture of the church man it's gonna
be rough to stay if you choose to focus on Jesus Christ and by the way this is the first
point and I remember this sweet friend bearing her testimony a few months after this she decided
not to walk away they did they decided not to walk away and her bearing her testimony
about how her how her perspective and focus had changed and that she before hadn't really
seen Jesus in the church and now she couldbook and not see Jesus in the church she saw Jesus
everywhere in the church she saw Jesus in the people of the church she saw Jesus in
the ordinances of the church she saw Jesus and the hymns of the church in the prayers
of the church and the lessons in the activities of the church she saw Jesus everywhere in the
church so it just depends on your perspective and focus what do you choose to focus on if
you look for Jesus in the church.
What do you think you'll find?
You're definitely gonna find him.
And so if you're, but if you're focused on the culture
and on the people.
What do you think you'll find?
It really depends.
That's the point.
It really is.
Whatever you're looking for, you're gonna find it.
So that's really the first one.
That's the first one.
And we quote that scripture over and over again.
Look unto me in every thought.
And we should say, we could tweak that.
Say look unto me in every church function.
And everything.
Everything in the church.
Look unto me.
In everything you do.
Yeah, right.
But look unto me, not under the church.
Well, and I love that in that scripture too.
It says, doubt not fear not.
As though, as though actually the anecdote
for doubt and fear is looking unto him.
We're gonna have doubts.
We're gonna have fears.
But when they arise, what should we focus on?
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
All right, so then the second one.
And we've talked about this.
We've, in fact, I think in the very beginning
of our podcast each season, at least by episode three,
we have brought this point up that gratitude
is the beginning of desire.
I'm gonna read this.
When lacking a desire to live the gospel,
you know, we all go through that wilderness.
Yeah.
I mean, I experienced that.
Yeah, that comes.
That comes up for me some way.
My desires are always gung-ho.
Yeah, yeah.
Always go get them.
Mine are more in line with the natural man sometimes.
My desires wane up and down.
So when lacking a desire to live the gospel
or when our love for the gospel wanes,
my experience has taught me that it is because
of my insufficient gratitude for or understanding
of the restored truths of Jesus Christ,
His atonement and doctrine,
especially taught in the Book of Mormon.
Seeing the hand of God in one's life
strengthens the feeling of the love of God
and for God in one's life.
Gratitude includes acknowledging the gift of God's Son,
the sacrifice of the Father,
and the depth of the suffering of the Son,
which brings a level of humility
that makes worship feel unforced and natural.
Right.
I just, I know that principle is true.
When my desire is not what it should be
to worship, to go participate in the ordinances
of the gospel, to go to church,
or to minister even, or to do other things
that I know are part of living the gospel of Jesus Christ,
when my desire is not what it should be,
I always say, okay, so how can I strengthen my gratitude?
And my gratitude changes my desire.
Right.
And our desires dictate our behaviors.
Yes.
And so, you know, you read this and I highlighted it,
seeing the hand of God in one's life
strengthens the feeling of the love of God
and for God in one's life.
So, I mean, again, it comes down to focus, right?
If I'm looking for the hand of God in my life,
I will surely see it.
But if I'm looking for the lack of the hand of God
in my own life, I can justify that too,
especially with the help of the accuser.
Right.
And so, this is going to, this is a big one,
gratitude is the beginning of desire.
And so, an invitation here is,
maybe this week we focus on where do we see
the hand of God in our lives.
And we begin that habit as we approach doing that.
Then I think that our gratitude definitely will increase.
Our desire will increase.
Our behaviors will become more in alignment.
I think journaling, keeping a journal,
a gratitude journal.
Yeah, gratitude journal.
And those things that we've talked about before
can help to strengthen gratitude.
But even when I don't feel like praying, Scott,
if I just, this is kind of just me,
when I don't feel like praying, my desire
is I just feel like, you know, my,
I mean, President Kimball used to talk about this, right?
Yeah.
The distance between him and God got wider and wider.
You know, he said I would immerse myself in the scriptures
and that gap would be quickly closed.
Well, that's true for me as well.
When I don't feel the spirit or desire of God in my life,
I really love to go to the scriptures.
And I always kneel in prayer.
I think part of that is because of my dad.
Yeah.
And you know, I remember my dad who was so sick at one point
and so, so hurting that I remember saying to him once,
I remember saying to him once, it was just me and Chris
there with him and mom and we, we'd come back from Minnesota.
Then it was in the summertime and then he was really not
doing well.
Then I remember saying to him, dad, let's, let's just,
let's just pray.
Let's just sit here and pray.
Oh, no, David.
No, David, I have to kneel.
I remember helping him to kneel and how painful it was
for him to kneel.
And I think about that often, Scott, thinking,
even when I don't feel like it,
even when it may be painful for me, I want to kneel.
Yeah, I remember having meals at Grandma and Grandpa's house
and even for the meal, breakfast, lunch or dinner,
we knelt in prayer.
You know?
Yeah.
And anyway, it's kind of what I don't feel that desire.
I have disciplined myself to kneel
and it's never happened that I've gotten up off my knees
and didn't feel more gratitude and therefore more desire.
Right.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Number three.
People are more important and have greater worth
than doctrine, practices and commandments.
What do you mean by that, Dave?
Well, there's so many people, I think, in the church
who choose to kind of discard their feelings for people
or look down on people or misjudge people
because of the standards, practices they choose to live.
I know God loves people more than he loves standards.
I know God loves people more than he loves principles.
I know God loves people more than he loves doctrine.
He loves his children more than anything else.
Now, I know that, but some people have not thought
that through and for example, just an example, Scott,
the Atonement of Jesus Christ is for people.
People were not created for the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
It's just love the people and loving the people can affect
not only our level of worship, but our desires
to participate with those people in worship
and in the church.
So I just think it's really important
to have that perspective.
And it helps you, actually, it helps parents
with their children.
I know some parents who have discarded, not not,
that's probably too harsh, but it's like
they've discarded their children because their children
have chosen to leave or not live the standards
or keep the commandments of the church.
And so parents put the standards and the commandments
of the church before their children.
I just, oh my goodness, that's just,
who are we to condemn anybody if Christ can't condemn
a woman caught in the very act of adultery?
Who am I to condemn anybody in my family,
in the church, in the world, anybody?
And I just think it's really unhealthy and dangerous
because when you start discarding people
or choosing to prioritize, starting to prioritize
commandments or principles or doctrine over people,
man, Satan, Satan is going to do a number on you
and pretty soon you're gonna be on the outside looking
because there's nothing, there's nothing, Scott,
that Jesus hated more than self-righteousness
to think that you're better than somebody else.
Because you subscribe to a certain set of principles.
Even if I have the truth, even if I know the doctrine,
I'm not any better than the Buddhist over in China.
You have no idea the conditions of anybody.
We strive, Dave, I think it's a real struggle
even sometimes to have a deep understanding
of my own conditions, right?
I mean, we go to therapy.
You can't judge yourself.
We try to understand and we try to.
I don't think you could judge yourself.
It's really hard.
It's really hard for us to have a deep understanding
of even our own conditions, let alone somebody else's.
Well, just letting judgment go,
judging others and it's this idea that,
you know, our responsibility is to love them.
It's not our responsibility to change them.
It's not our responsibility to fix them.
Just love them.
That's our responsibility when it comes
to our children and others.
And if we would live a life like that,
we would be a whole lot less app to let Satan come in
and destroy our relationship with others.
So, anyway, number four,
God is a God of love and a God of laws.
And I say, I'll just, I'm going to read this one too.
Perfectly balanced.
God is not more, he is not one,
a God of love or a God of laws,
more than he is the other.
Without his love, there would be no laws.
And without his laws, his love would be exploited.
God's laws are founded in love
and his love enforces the law.
All truth is circumscribed into one great whole,
which includes, so just try to picture a circle,
circumscribed into one great whole.
And in half of this circle, you have God's love.
His mercy is grace.
I used to do this with my students.
I used to draw a circle on the board
and I would say this represents truth.
What truths do you love about the gospel of Jesus Christ?
And they would start to yell out grace and mercy and love
and all of these nice things, right?
They would describe these things.
I would purposely write them on the board
on one half of the circle.
And the other half of the circle
would almost always be blank.
And then I would draw a line down this circle
and I would say, okay, you've just described God's love.
That's what you love is God's love.
And that's obvious, it makes sense.
What is it you love about God's laws?
You know, in the other half of the circle,
we'd start to work on order, ordinances, covenants.
Safety. Commandments.
Safety, yeah. Deliverty.
Deliverance.
You know, we could start to, anyway.
So all truth is circumscribed into one great whole,
which includes all the Father's love, mercy and grace,
as well as all his laws, ordinances and commandments.
The heavens love law and order.
Without his laws, there would be confusion,
chaos and no accountability.
Without his love, there would be coercion or neglect.
Unholy manipulation and cold mechanical relationships.
Agency would be destroyed in the absence of either.
In love, he gives us laws and his laws prove his love.
God is love and without law, there is no God.
That's just, what, self descriptive.
Yeah, yeah. I know members, individuals, people,
they wanna focus on his love.
And for some reason neglect or not cherish so much his laws.
I think there comes a point,
and it's kind of come this way for me.
We've talked, I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago
in another episode, I won't get into the details,
but as I have progressed in my relationship with him,
I see his love and his law almost one in the same.
They are, it's like justice, justice and mercy.
Justice and mercy are just two sides of the same coin.
That's what I concluded.
They're just two sides of the same coin.
You should love his justice.
His justice is gonna make things fair.
His mercy is anyway, the great equalizer.
Number five.
Inescapable facts of church history.
False teachings of and negative experiences
with church leaders have little to do
with the determinant factors of real conversion.
Well, we talked about that.
Yeah, I think that speaks for yourself too.
Conversion to the Lord is the bullseye.
Which is different than testimony too.
Not conversion to the church,
which is different than testimony.
Right. Exactly.
It's not so much a testimony that we should seek.
It's more conversion to the Lord that we should seek.
Testimony's important.
That's maybe where you can begin.
That's where we would begin with our non-member friends
is to help them begin to get a testimony.
But ultimately it comes to conversion
to the Lord Jesus Christ and a new way of,
not just looking at things,
but a new heart and a change of life.
That's what we should be seeking for and focused on.
Yep. Yep.
Yep. That change that we call conversion.
I think there's an impetus lent to that by testimony.
I don't think that without testimony,
the conversion can come.
But that conversion is really the ultimate goal.
That's really what we're going for
is the change that comes through our testimony
of Jesus Christ.
Absolutely.
All right. Number six.
Patience is required in acknowledging
and positively dealing with, in quotation marks here,
the gap.
What people call the gap, yeah.
The hollow space between the real and the ideal.
All the ambiguities, so many ambiguities in the gospel.
All the ambiguities, uncertainties,
and fall the expectations of our limited understanding
and ability to live the gospel
often cause negative thoughts and feelings.
So when we're always coming up short, right?
When we're always coming up based upon some standard
or sometimes some imagined or false ideal or standard,
we get pretty discouraged.
The accuser kicks in, comes and wants to accuse us
that we are not celestial material,
that we're not good enough,
that we'll never measure up.
That we're broken, that, yeah.
And so the accuser, we give him an opening
and he attacks.
I just think it's really important
that we keep the gospel really simple
and our focus should be on the simplicity of the gospel.
Not so much upon the complexities
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And anyway, that's all that needs to be said there.
Okay, here's number seven.
Truth should never be determined
or measured by the standards an individual is willing
or wanting to live.
In other words, we don't make up our own truth.
Based upon the kind of life you wanna live.
Exactly, yeah.
We don't suit our beliefs based on what we want to live
or how we want to live.
Should be much better.
Again, I can't judge anybody and we're all guilty.
Yeah.
But there are just so many who, because of the world,
are influenced that if I can't live that life
and then it must not be true.
Or if I don't want to live those standards,
then I'm going to find ways to disprove it.
And in order to alleviate my guilt,
I think sometimes guilt is the culprit here and shame.
Yeah, shame.
And keeping people out of the church
are really being more intentional
in the conversion process.
And they just finally throw in the towel
and say, this is who I am
and this is the way I'm gonna live.
And the accuser wins.
And therefore their willingness to live,
the gospel of Jesus Christ is the reason why,
or their unwillingness to live,
the gospel of Jesus Christ,
is why they choose not to believe it.
That makes it not true.
Right, right.
So they're a leave to many responsibility.
Yeah, it's a belief or a commitment of convenience.
Yeah, yeah.
Number eight.
Number eight, there is opposition in all things.
And acknowledging the war
and wrestle between right and wrong, good and evil,
light and dark, truth and error.
The Messiah versus the accuser is critical
in not drifting or going with the flow.
There is a war, there is a struggle.
There is sacrifice.
It's hard.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not easy.
It's not broad.
It's straight, S-T-R-A-I-T.
And it can be tough to live in a world of anything goes.
Right?
And to acknowledge that,
to acknowledge that there's a war and a wrestle,
I think is really important
and to be engaged in that, to call it what it is.
And I think that we need to understand
that there's a difference between absolute truth
and relative truth.
And that that's really the same war that was in heaven
is being reenacted here.
And that war and the premortal existence
before anybody was ever born or the earth was created
was really over that one point.
Relative truth or absolute truth.
Exactly.
And Satan basically said anything goes.
Right.
And I'll save you no matter what.
Exactly.
And that's the only way you can absolutely destroy agency
is to completely eliminate accountability.
And that war continues, Scott.
Yeah, and I agree.
I think it does continue.
I'm not sure that I agree with it.
It's being reenacted as much as I believe
that there's a continuation of the same war.
Yeah.
So I just think it's important to be able to separate
in one's mind that the relative truth and absolute truth.
So here's number nine.
Number nine can be one that gets a little tricky,
but policies, procedures and practices
constantly change in the church.
And there's always exceptions to the policy,
but the official doctrine of the gospel
of Jesus Christ never changes.
Now, for me, now I know what other scholars,
how they define doctrine.
And there's some scholars at BYU who I'll leave unnamed
who want to describe policies and procedures as doctrine.
And they have four different levels of doctrine.
I just personally reject that.
And to me, there's only one doctrine.
And there's not different levels of doctrine.
It's doctrine that I choose to focus on.
And I don't see policies and procedures being doctrine.
They just are what they say they are,
their policies and procedures.
And there are always exceptions to them.
There's no policy or procedure that doesn't have
some rare exception that is made by those
who may be in authority.
And I understand that, but there's no exceptions to doctrine.
And the doctrine is absolute.
That's just, that's my perspective.
That's how I choose to define it.
And it seems to help me to clarify the difference.
And I have no trouble with policies and procedures changing
because I know that they're based upon the world
and the circumstances we live in
and the different cultures and the church
becoming an international church
and trying to prepare the church for the coming
of Jesus Christ.
And there's lots of reasons and really practical ones.
Sometimes complicated ones.
Why policies and procedures need to change, Scott.
But doctrine never changes, God never changes.
Beliefs never change really as far as God's beliefs
and his doctrine is concerned.
So focus on doctrine and not upon policies and procedures.
There used to be a seminary guide on doctrine
and they actually had identified like 10 different
what I would call points of doctrine.
For example, Scott, a doctrine is what you really choose
to believe.
A principle may be how you apply that doctrine.
Procedures and policies may be based upon doctrine
of how you organize something
or how you enact something,
but doctrine never changes and it is bedrock.
That's my focus.
And that sort of a focus helps me to be
a little more solid.
The one needful thing.
When I'm attached to the bedrock.
Yeah, exactly.
Number 10, God loves and blesses all of his children.
Yeah, this is one of my favorites, Scott.
The church has no exclusivity on spirituality
and no monopoly on miracles or answers to prayer
or truth for that matter.
All churches have some truth.
I know we say we're the only living,
only true and living church,
but that doesn't mean we have all truth.
We have no monopoly on that.
Other churches have miracles.
Other churches have answers to prayers.
Other churches are loved by God.
We are,
anyway, I know, Scott, that God loves
and blesses all of his children based upon the light
that they have received.
And not only that, but you just highlighted it in there.
In fact, why don't you just read that?
Yeah, the Atonement of Jesus Christ
is for the entire human family.
His grace, mercy, power and blessings
are available to all who seek to follow Him
or who have never even heard of Him.
Now that's a point of doctrine
that I don't think any other church or religion believes.
That is unique to our church.
That, so there's so many others, right,
who think that if you're not a member of this church,
you're going to hell.
Well, we don't believe that.
We do not believe that.
We know that there's gonna be every opportunity
given to individuals to make and keep covenants
with their heavenly Father before the final judgment.
And that any individual, no matter how bad they've been
or where they've been, that they can come back
and that they can receive the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And we don't condemn anybody for their beliefs
or their religion.
And neither does God.
Right.
I mean, I'm sure there's some occult worshipers out there
and I'm sure God's not pleased,
but even they perhaps have some truth
that there's a devil.
Yeah, that's true.
And that he's real.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah. And it's good to know that too.
I'm gonna read another part of this
that you've also authored here.
David says, the Atonement of Christ makes life fair.
It covers all iniquities, all inequalities,
the unconditional effects of the compensatory blessings
of his sacrifice cover all of God's children.
And in the end, there will be no individual
who will not receive all the salvation and glory
that he or she desires.
And only the true church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints teaches that doctrine.
He teaches that doctrine.
Yeah.
I love that.
I know that's true.
Yeah.
Number 11, there is nothing that God and Jesus hate more
than self-righteousness, elitism,
or the condemnation of others.
Okay, and I've kind of highlighted this one
and talked about it already.
You know, being the only true and living church
doesn't make us better than anybody else
and no one is excluded, right?
Come all, he invites all to come unto him.
Second, Ephi 2633, by the way,
I think that's Elder President Oaks' favorite scripture.
Now, no one's condemned, nobody is eliminated.
I know that there's certain things that people have to do
to be in good standing.
But I know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
that no one is exempt.
So self-righteousness is not something
that any of us should ever be a part of.
Number 12, symbolic rituals and ordinances
have eternally been the pattern of worship
sanctioned by our Heavenly Father.
This is just kind of understanding,
which we should be so grateful to the Restoration for,
understanding the ancient way God does things,
that an unchangeable God has always had symbolic rituals
and ordinances for his children to participate in,
to strengthen their relationship with him.
And that the power of godliness is manifest
in the ordinances of the gospel.
And that symbols and rituals are part of the gospel
of Jesus Christ, always has been, always will be.
That this is how God chooses to teach
and to lead his people is through symbols and ritual.
I think some people think that the church
is a little bit too ritualistic,
or that we have too many symbols,
or that why do we have ordinances and covenants?
Well, not understanding that is to not understand
the character of God.
And it goes back all the way to Adam and Eve.
And the Bible and the scriptures bear witness of that.
So I think just understanding God's patterns of worship
that he's set up for his children,
because he loves his children,
is an important perspective to have.
Great.
Number 13, clingers never last.
You just have to hold fast.
Too many people in the church are clingers.
Yeah, explain that.
Second Nephi, yeah, second Nephi chapter eight, Scott.
And there's four groups of people described in second Nephi.
First Nephi or second Nephi?
Did I say second?
Yeah.
First Nephi, sorry.
First Nephi chapter eight,
Lehi describes the four different groups of people
in his amazing dream of the tree of life.
And the one that gets the most attention actually,
is the third group.
And the third group are the ones who take hold
of the iron rod, go through the midst of darkness.
They're clingers.
He says that they are clinging.
Every time the word clinging is used in the scripture,
Scott, I think it's negative.
They are clinging.
Which is different than cleaving.
Yes, yes, that's a sacred word.
And I think that that can get mixed up.
But yeah.
Cleaving is sacred.
Cleave to your husband.
Cleave to your wife.
There's six things, I think five or six things
we've been commanded to cleave to.
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, I'm glad we've talked about that.
But clingers are negative.
And these clingers, clinging,
I don't know what you picture, but I just,
ugh, you know, white knuckled, gritting their teeth.
They're clinging, this is so hard.
And they're clinging and they get to the tree of life.
And they actually partake of it.
They actually partake of the Atonement of Jesus Christ
in some manner or form.
And then they start looking around.
Like, you know, no big deal.
And they start looking around.
And they notice the great spacious building.
And they say, well, that looks fun.
That looks more exciting.
That looks easier than what I just experienced.
I think I'll go try that for a while.
And they get in the building and probably few,
I don't know, I've said many most will come back
and I believe that, but some of them get trapped
in that building and never maybe come out.
And those are the clingers.
And those are the clingers. And it's so interesting
that in describing the fourth group,
it just simply says that they took hold of the iron rod
and they held fast.
And they go to the tree and they partake.
And instead of looking around and being distracted,
they fall down.
Again, in gratitude, Scott.
And worship.
Their gratitude, their worship.
And they fall down.
They don't pay attention to the great spacious building.
They fall down in worship and gratitude.
And they're filled with desire.
Then they stay.
That's the difference.
You don't cling.
You don't white knuckle it.
You don't have to grit your teeth.
Just live the gospel.
It's simple.
I know it's not always easy.
There are sacrifices involved,
but it should be with joy.
Right?
There should be joy involved.
And it should be fun to live the gospel of Jesus Christ
with the sacrifices comes blessings.
And that's what I mean by you just have to hold fast.
You just have to keep moving.
Enduring to the end, following through, striving.
Striving is important word here.
Keep striving.
Even though we are so imperfect and we sin
and we make the same mistakes
and display the same weaknesses over and over again.
Just hold fast.
Keep your feet moving.
And when you repent daily, fall down,
feel the love of God.
Thank him in gratitude and worship him.
Those are the stairs.
The clingers don't last.
You just have to hold fast.
Right?
And the last one.
Focus on primary questions.
There's a great talk given by,
let's see, Brother Corbridge.
Lawrence Corbridge.
Yeah, yeah.
BYU speeches.
BYU speeches that I would recommend everybody look up
if you haven't read it.
I would recommend you actually listen to it.
And then read it and study it.
But I love Brother Corbridge and the passion
in which he gives this amazing talk after being
a general authority who had to review some of the cases
and individuals who are walking away
in this whole cultural faith crisis that people talk about.
And he was on some committee for that.
And after looking at all the anti-Mormon stuff
and everything, he kind of came up with his own list
and his own perspective about why people leave
and why people choose to stay.
And I just really recommend this talk to you.
And in the essence, there's really some great points,
but in the essence of it is that you have to focus
on the primary questions.
Does God live?
Is Jesus the Christ?
Now, to me, are they separate and distinct?
Is the Holy Ghost real?
Can I receive?
How can I receive revelation?
Did Joseph Smith see the father and the son?
Is the Book of Mormon the Word of God?
There, do we have a living pro...
These are the primary questions.
The secondary questions is, well, who decided,
who made the decisions about the Mount Meadow Massacre?
What's this polygamy all about?
What's plural marriage all about?
Oh, what about gay marriage?
What about that?
What about the priesthood and who can have the priest
and who can't have the priest?
Those are all secondary questions.
Focus on the primary questions.
I'm not saying the secondary questions aren't important.
They're certainly interesting.
I love studying them too.
And I have my own thoughts and feelings about them,
but conversion and testimony and what really matters
are discovered and enjoyed by focusing
on the primary questions.
Right, right.
Well, that brings us to a conclusion of our points
of perspective that you've given us today.
Dave, thank you so much for doing that.
We're just trying to empower.
We hope to give all of us the empowerment
that we need to have that relationship with him
so that these things can be alive and well in our lives
and that we can be benefited
and receive the grace and blessing that he is intended
for us to receive in our own individual lives as well.
We hope that you share this with others.
We hope that this hope springs eternal within you.
And most importantly, we hope that you understand
and have a deep and ever abiding relationship
with our Heavenly Father, his son and the Holy Ghost.
That's really all our question is by doing all of this.
Hey, thanks so much for being with us today.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, be well.
Thank you.