1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,060 Hey there gang just kind of wanted to give you an update on the podcast our plans are to continue to 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:11,560 record podcasts. We have just run into a little hurdle here with Dave having some 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:20,200 medical issues. See he had a hip surgery and has been a little bit out of the pocket as you can well imagine. 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,520 He's healing well. We anticipate being back on schedule within a week or two. 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,880 Thanks for your patience. In the meantime enjoy our friend Jack Christianson. 6 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,000 Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. 7 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,800 I'm Scott Durfey and joined as always by David Durfey 8 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,840 Good to be here Scott. Good to have an old friend with us today. 9 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,360 Yeah, I'll be careful on using adjectives like old. 10 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,960 There you go. There you go. Hey gang before we get started 11 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,600 I just want to thank you all for your responses your emails all of that. 12 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:20,640 Just it's so wonderful so great to hear from you. Last week we were able to address a 13 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,560 question from an email and we'll continue to try and do that as we can. 14 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,760 You can send those to heredeemsusatgmail.com. 15 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:36,400 He redeemsusatgmail.com. Well listen Dave this week is a treat for me. 16 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:44,200 I think it probably is for you as well. We have a guest with us that has some notoriety in the church and 17 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:53,200 his name is Jack Christianson. I have had the opportunity to know Jack for a little over 25 years. 18 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:59,200 I'll have 25 years I guess a little under 25 years. I'll have 25 years sober next month. 19 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,560 In fact one month from yesterday as a matter of fact. 20 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,960 Awesome. That is hard to believe. 21 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:12,320 But you know after a few years of being in recovery I had an opportunity to speak with Jack at a fireside. 22 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:19,880 And I'm sure I have a brighter recollection of that than Jack because he gets an opportunity to do that so much. 23 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,080 And I felt like I was with a celebrity because I had listened to so many of his talk tapes and stuff growing up. 24 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,840 But I know Jack is Jack Jack the scripture maniac. That's right. 25 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,240 Wow I can't remember that. You didn't know that. 26 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:42,200 Well I know that about Jack and Jack and David know the scriptures to a degree that I I hope to us some day 27 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,840 aspire to. But anyway that's Jack Dave. I'm going to let you take it from here and say a few more words 28 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,200 and then just kind of get us rolling. Thanks Scott. Yeah. Thanks Jack for being with us. 29 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:58,920 So honored to be here. Both of you. Jack are. What does our stand for. It's just our. Yeah that's what I thought. 30 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:05,200 It's just a middle initial. In fact on all of my products that I have books and yeah it has a period. 31 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,840 But I didn't learn until I started doing family history that my real name is Jack are. Yeah. No period. 32 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:18,880 No period. Yeah. So I just leave the period on it. But I'm Jack are my dad is Jack. So I'm junior. OK. So well I 33 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:25,920 Jack Jack and I I guess we knew each other when we were in high school playing against each other in sports 34 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:35,400 and he was my my nemesis and we had a lot of respect I think for each other then he was best quarterback. 35 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:43,960 I mean I know we played against and it was always fun to beat him. I know that he's the only one that did. 36 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:51,440 Well I'm going to save you all the research to these guys played in the day of one Gifford Nelson. That's right. 37 00:03:51,440 --> 00:04:00,360 Yeah. Yeah. Gifford was a pro bow and Jack was the quarterback at Orem. And I remember the you know coming 38 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:06,200 over to Orem their homecoming and beating them seven to nothing. That was that was a big deal for us because we had 39 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:12,960 to work was kind of small and or we were really big and one of the bigger schools in the state had a great team 40 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:21,480 and went on one state and did all kinds of great things. And anyway well it's only been 52 years and I'm still hurting 41 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:28,760 but that's OK. I can be redeemed. That's what I know. Physically hurting or emotionally hurting. Yeah. It was mentally 42 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:36,160 mentally I got you. That's that makes sense to get beat by a little American fork. He was probably really humbling for Jack 43 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:44,200 which was good for him. Yeah. Anyway so we were kind of a nemesis to each other but we've become great friends. Jack 44 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:53,320 went on played a little college football. He met the love of his life Melanie Harris. Right. And how many children do you have 45 00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:00,840 Jack. We have one son and four daughters. One son four daughters and our children and our we have 19 grandchildren 46 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:10,280 and four great grandchildren. Jack has had many many church positions and callings after after we taught seminary for a while 47 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:16,920 and I remember observing him teach before I actually became a seminary teacher. He was a popular teacher. I remember 48 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:27,240 him holding his head people's heads in buckets of water. At least that's what I observed. That's correct. In order to teach them 49 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:37,400 that when they desired God as much as they desired air using the sock Socrates right experience. You know when somebody came 50 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:43,920 and asked Socrates how did he become so smart. He said when you desire knowledge more than you desire air after you tried 51 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:52,240 dunked him in the ocean and he passed out. And Jack was using that for testimony. And anyway I wanted to become a seminary 52 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:59,920 teacher. I've always wanted to become like Jack. So anyway it's just really an honor to have him here and he's served as a 53 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:08,720 stake president mission president and it's so sweet now Jack that we share the calling of being a patriarch. Well Jack 54 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:17,440 has quite an education to Oh yeah. Jack attended Oxford. Well it's the H.D. it's the private side of Oxford which is 55 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:26,240 Buckingham Buckingham. Yeah. And served as a besides being Institute director at U.B.U. where I was also Institute 56 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:36,400 director. He went over to the secular side became vice president at Utah Valley University and then was called away as a 57 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:43,040 mission president. Yeah. I was actually the assistant to the president special assistant to the president. OK. So I had my 58 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:50,080 office right next to the president and it was great. Yeah. And had such a positive effect on the university from the 59 00:06:50,080 --> 00:07:00,160 community standpoint building trust and thank you support from the community. Anyway Jack it's just a really 60 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:09,120 an honor to have you here. And we wanted to be able to have you share with us some of your experiences that you've 61 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:17,200 had throughout your life with the redemption of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice. You and I have spent 62 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:26,080 enough time together. I wish it was more but we've spent we've been on a golf trip together and you hosted hosted us 63 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:33,120 when I came back to New York in the sacred Grove when you were mission president in the New York Rochester 64 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:44,800 Mission and anyway we've we've had enough time together that I I know who Jack is and Jack's had so many 65 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:53,040 experiences personally as well as experiences helping others to feel the love of God through the 66 00:07:53,040 --> 00:08:01,200 redemption of his son. So let's just start Jack by having you kind of share any experiences that you want 67 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:10,400 as examples of the redemption of Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement. Well thank you Dave and 68 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,720 Scott it's a joy to be with you. I think the most important thing that I can say to any listeners and to the two 69 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:26,640 of you is that I am an I have an absolute certain witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I am a living 70 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:34,880 witness of his redemptive power not only in my own life but in the lives of many many people that I've 71 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:42,240 had the privilege of serving with and my family. I didn't have the great privilege that some of you 72 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,120 have had of growing up in an active Latter-day-St. family. My mom and dad for whatever reason 73 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:57,200 chose not to be active and as a result it it they developed habits they they had issues all along the 74 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:06,880 way. We talk about Scott being sober for 25 years. My father my my both my grandfathers 75 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:15,200 my brother my some of my uncles all struggled with addiction and so it was very very common in my life 76 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:23,440 to see it growing up. I didn't understand it. I do now thank goodness but but my my two grandfathers 77 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:34,480 just had difficult lives. One was in World War I. I never got the the problems that war creates 78 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:42,800 in the mind and the spirit and the very soul of people and my grandpa my grandpa Christensen had 79 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:50,240 some struggles but when he grasped the gospel I think the premise of what I'd like to say about 80 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,840 both my grandparent my grandfathers my two grandmothers were as I can't even talk about them. 81 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:02,960 They were as saintly as they get and I'll talk about them in a minute because that's what set the 82 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:12,560 whole my whole course of wanting to help other people. And by the way Jack the one thing I admire 83 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:22,000 the most about you is the individuals who I have seen you help. Just just the one on one. I mean 84 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,760 you know besides the masses the books and the caves and the leadership positions you've held Jack. 85 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:33,280 I remember the the one young man at UVU who used to come in the Institute every once in a while 86 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:40,480 yeah Dana Wilson and he would always call you yeah when he needed help and you were always 87 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:47,520 how is Dana doing. He's he's passed away. He died of COVID. He did and it was a really I took him 88 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:54,160 to be tested. I helped him for 32 plus years. I took him shopping every week. What was his handicap. 89 00:10:54,160 --> 00:11:02,880 He had cerebral palsy and a mental deficiency. But he always you know you were like you were like 90 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:10,080 more than a brother to him. You were like his dad his brother is his lawyer his everything housekeeper 91 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:16,160 his everything. And anyway that's that's the one thing about you Jack since you you just said it 92 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:23,360 that's what gave you the desire to serve others. You have been an amazing example to me. Well thank 93 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:31,120 you thank you. It's been a privilege and sometimes you worry if you are not worried isn't the right 94 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:39,200 word but you wonder if it does any good and it wears you out. Sure. But my very first year of 95 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:46,400 teaching there was a sign on a teacher's wall in his office that changed my life. He said you are 96 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:53,440 not the interruption of my life but the purpose for it. And I have tried to live by that. That a 97 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:58,400 student isn't an interruption. A troubled teenager isn't an interruption. You're the purpose for which 98 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:06,160 I exist. And when you go to what president Ezra Taft Benson said he said this just as a man or a 99 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:13,760 woman does not desire food until they are hungry. So they will not desire the salvation of Christ 100 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:20,240 until they know why they need Christ. Right. And then he goes on and says and no one properly and 101 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,760 adequately knows why they need Christ until they understand one doctrine above them all 102 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,960 and that is the fall. Exactly we've quoted that haven't we Scott? Yeah and then he says and no other 103 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,080 book on earth teaches that better than the Book of Mormon. Amen. And so if we can somehow 104 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:43,200 grasp the Book of Mormon and not just hold to it but remember the phrase from First Nephi 8 105 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:51,760 that the group that held fast and continually to the iron rod when they got to the tree they 106 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,320 realized it's not even a tree. They fell down. They fell down and worshiped because they realized 107 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:03,360 it's him. Yeah. It's him. And that's what can happen to each of us and I have needed the redemption 108 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:10,880 of the Savior and his sacred blood going back to my grandparents when my grandfather Christiansen 109 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:19,200 got active in the church and overcame some of his issues. I didn't really know him other than 110 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,640 than when he well that's not true when I was a little tiny kid but as I got older he died when 111 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:33,200 I was 17 and he had to use the redemption of Christ to overcome his addictions to overcome his 112 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:38,800 traditions and his anger about certain things but he went to the Manti Temple with my grandmother 113 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,240 and they were faithful both of them died completely faithful. My grandpa Pinnaker 114 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:55,760 they lost my grandma and grandpa Pinnaker lost a 15 year old a four year old an 18 month old 115 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:03,200 and then a son in World War II all within a short amount of time plus my grandmother's parents 116 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:10,400 and sisters. The four year old and the 18 month old all died within like 18 months of each other 117 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:18,640 and my grandfather did not handle it well and he began to drink. My grandmother on the other hand 118 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,720 it's very similar to in Alma where it says because of the exceedingly great length of the war 119 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:31,680 some got turned against and some became softened. Some were harder some were softer. Yeah and so my 120 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:40,080 grandpa went harder my grandmother became the saint of saints and when my uncle Max and Rex 121 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:48,640 turned 10 years old they went to my grandfather and said we want a special birthday gift for our 122 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:54,080 10th birthday and my grandpa thought it was another bicycle because the two of them had to share a 123 00:14:54,080 --> 00:15:00,720 bicycle. They were twins. Yeah and some maybe don't know elder Rex Pinnaker. Yeah of the first quorum 124 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:07,760 of the 70s. Yeah right. And so he they said dad we want a we want a special gift from you 125 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:16,000 and he said well I just want another bike you can't share your bike. No we want you to stop drinking 126 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:25,200 when we turn 10 and to my knowledge he never had another drink. I only knew my grandpa Pinnaker 127 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:33,520 as a superstar spiritually. I have his scriptures that were what I got from him. I have a talk he 128 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:40,000 gave that was inserted in his pearl of great price that I treasured. He died when I was 13. 129 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:46,800 My grandpa Christiansen died when I was 17 but why that is so significant it is. I don't know 130 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,360 why my parents chose the way they did. A lot of it had to do with World War II. My dad left for 131 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:59,600 World War II active in the church and elder. He played football two years at BYU before he left. 132 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:05,760 Came home with a ton of problems. He and my mom had had dated in high school excuse me that's not 133 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,880 true. They went all through school together and then my mom was divorced with two children at the 134 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:17,920 end of the war and my dad came home from war and they married and they raised us not active in the 135 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:27,200 church. However they got it together. You want to talk about how it's affected my life. I feel 136 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,520 I need to tell you a story. If you don't mind me talking about my family. I was a grown man with 137 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:41,520 children when I learned this story and I want to share it because I don't think people appreciate 138 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:49,680 why people do what they do and somehow we've got to get to the point where we realize that this life 139 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:56,880 is birth to the final judgment and resurrection. Too many unfair things birth to death. 140 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,240 Yeah. In other words, Jack, we've talked on this on this podcast. There's a difference between 141 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:12,480 temptations and conditions. Amen. Section 46. Yep. 46. The Lord knows the condition of every 142 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:18,000 single person. He suits his mercy according to their condition and that is absolutely correct. 143 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:25,600 And so it's not going to be the same for everybody. Right. So when my parents got married, 144 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:31,440 they didn't raise us in the church, but my grandparents were incredible influences in my life. 145 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,960 My grandmother, Pinnaker would say to me every time she saw me, every time, that's not an 146 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,280 exaggeration. Oh, you're going to be a wonderful missionary. Well, I don't want to be a missionary. 147 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:48,720 I want to be a football player. But guess what happened? Her influence made me want to go serve 148 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:55,200 those because I realized why I needed Christ. But I let me tell you a story that I never told 149 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:03,520 in public that I think will be helpful to your listeners. I was a senior at Orm High. It was 150 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:13,440 during football season. My dad was coming home from a meeting late at night and stopped at the bar, 151 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:22,560 had too much to drink and hit a parked car, not too far from our home. And the police came, 152 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:31,600 and the officer that was there saw my dad's driver's license. And his name was Jack Christensen. 153 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:38,480 And the officer said to my dad, Hey, he related to Jack Christensen. That's a quarterback of 154 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:45,600 Orm High School. He's my son. Now, before I tell you what happened, let me tell you how I learned 155 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:53,920 this story. I was making fun of that officer and mocking him a little bit as a grown man. Just 156 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,200 do you remember this officer? Because he'd picked me up a couple of times and I just kind of was 157 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:06,080 teasing about him. And my dad grabbed me by the shoulders. He says, you have no idea what you're 158 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,440 talking about, son, you sit down, let me tell you a story. That man's the greatest man in Orm, 159 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:19,440 Utah. He says, you have no idea what he did for you and for me. That officer, when he pulled my dad 160 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:26,960 over, my dad got to the accident. He saw that driver's license. And he said, I cannot embarrass your 161 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:33,200 son at this time during the football season, you could ruin his life. He said, Mr. Christensen, 162 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:40,720 will you promise me if I take care of this and make it go away, that you will never drink and drive 163 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:48,800 again? And my dad said, sir, if I give my word, I'll keep my word no matter what. I promise you, 164 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:54,640 I will never drink and drive again. Thank you for caring about the reputation of my son. 165 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:02,480 Let me tell you how I feel about that man. I didn't know it. I'll never make fun of anybody again, 166 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:08,960 ever. Because I had no idea that that had happened. And I had children. I mean, I was, 167 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,960 I think I was a bishop at the time. And my dad let me know. And you talk about the mercy of Christ, 168 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:22,240 because that started my father on a softening process. And both my parents 169 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,960 started reading the Book of Mormon. We had an incredible bishop, an incredible Relief Society 170 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,160 president, our ward. The bishop just came to our home and said, Hey, don't you think it's time? 171 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:45,920 And so they ended up, we were sealed February 27th, 1973. And I and my sister were the only two of the 172 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:52,320 five children that were sealed at that time. And then one by one, they have all come back and been 173 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,680 sealed to our family. My parents went on a mission to the islands of the Caribbean. 174 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:04,800 My dad was that had never had a calling in the church, because he would swear too much. And so he 175 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,760 became the greeter. And his favorite line, everybody's favorite line was how the hell are you this 176 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:16,880 morning, brother? And the bishop just worked with him. Then my uncle Rex calls my dad on the phone. 177 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:24,880 He says, Hey, I need a couple down in Barbados. Well, and I need them to get down there right now. 178 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:33,360 And I need you and Merle, my mom to go. His sister. And my dad said, Well, Rex, I got a little problem. 179 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:39,040 I'm still having a little problem with the back. And my uncle just said, Well, stop it. 180 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:46,800 The Lord needs you and he needs you now. And my dad blesses art. He did. And they went down there. 181 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,040 He served as branch president of two branches at the same time. And he would call me on the phone 182 00:21:53,040 --> 00:22:00,960 to ask me about how to do certain things. He would read the handbook, couldn't understand it. 183 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,560 So he would ask me and I got to train my father. They came home from their mission. They moved to 184 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:14,080 St. George. They served 13 years in the St. George temple. Now I ask you and they both died faithful 185 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:24,560 members of the church. The redeeming blood of Christ changed my family forever. 186 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:34,160 So when my mother passed away, my brother was with me and my one, my younger sister, who has always 187 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,920 been a superstar. She was just too young to be sealed without being endowed. And of course, 188 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,880 excuse me, she's the one that was with me when we got sealed. My other sister, who is a wonderful 189 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,760 woman, is a hippie in the sixties. And she's finally came in and she's been on a mission to 190 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,240 Sweden and totally active in the church. My oldest sister, she's 83. She's had three marriages. 191 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,640 She has four children, four different fathers. And there couldn't be a greater woman on the earth. 192 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,960 And I've watched this process that you two talk about every week. 193 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:13,360 Yeah. Effect my own family. Well, my brother was the last one. He's a recovering alcoholic. 194 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,520 This one that lived in Denver. He lived in Denver. He was a car dealer in Denver. 195 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:25,440 He's been married and divorced seven times. And he was with my mom when she died with me and my 196 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:33,360 other sister and my wife. And my mom just wouldn't go. And my brother finally put his face down by 197 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:38,720 hers and said, mama, just go. And she didn't do anything. And then he says, am I the reason you 198 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:45,280 don't want to go? And she just shook her head and said, yeah. And then he said, I promise you, 199 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,920 I'll do my best to come back. And that, and then she died within a few minutes. 200 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,560 Well, he just called me one day and just said, I'm tired of living like this. I got to have help. 201 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:03,120 He'd been sober for quite a while, but still had from alcohol and drugs, but still had other 202 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:11,200 issues he had to work on. And he got divorced, sold everything, sold all of his business, 203 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:17,920 his home, everything. He and his wife split. He moved to a little 55 plus community in American 204 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:27,920 Fork. Oh, sweet. He's a caveman. He's a caveman. And he is just, he, I have to tell the story. 205 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:35,120 And some people, some of your listeners have probably heard me tell it, but, but he decided, 206 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:39,280 I got to do, what do I do? I said, you need to go see your bishop. And you got to confess 207 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,640 everything. He says, well, I can't confess everything. I can't remember everything. I'm, 208 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:48,240 so I asked him a simple question. Have you ever murdered anybody? He said, no, not that I remember. 209 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,560 I said, okay, then just tell your bishop that. So he goes into the bishop and tells the bishop, 210 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,960 and the bishop didn't know what to do. So he sent him to the stake. Let's start with that. 211 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,360 So we sent him to the stake present and Tom said, could you go with me to see the stake 212 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:10,640 present? Cause you've been a stake presence. I said, okay, I will. And so we get to the stake 213 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:18,080 present and my brother says, I've done everything you can possibly do wrong, but I've never murdered 214 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:27,040 anybody. And he said, excommunicate me, do whatever it takes. I just want to come home. And the stake 215 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,480 present in his sweetness to simply said, Oh brother Christians, and you don't know enough to be 216 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,040 excommunicated. How about if we just work with you for a couple of years and we teach you the 217 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,520 missionary lessons and we teach you the temple preparation classes and that type of thing. 218 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:49,600 So that two year period, and this is not by coincidence, is the only two year period where 219 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:55,200 I didn't have some heavy ecclesiastical or professional assignment where I could be with 220 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,440 my brother every single day. Well, maybe not every day, but most days. We didn't miss very many in 221 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:08,880 two years. And this was how long ago, Jack? This was in nine 2018. That was divinely designed. 222 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:15,920 It was. It was it was absolutely orchestrated. And so I was able to be with him, teach him. 223 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,360 And our uncle Rex was dying. And so all of my siblings and I went up to see him. And as we're 224 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:31,200 talking, and my brother is using all the the church jargon, my uncle Rex just said, Stop, 225 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:38,080 stop, stop. What on earth has happened to you, Tom? What has brought about this change? And my 226 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,840 brother's response was so profound, I have to share it. He simply said, Oh, I don't know. 227 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,840 I just started doing what I've been taught to do my whole life. And my life changed. And I came to 228 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,880 know my savior. He said, I started reading scriptures. I started praying, started attending 229 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,360 church, started paying my tithing. I couldn't serve in the church because of my past for a while, 230 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:04,960 but I could clean the church every Saturday morning. And so we would call him some days and say, Hey, 231 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,000 let's go fishing, let's go golf. I can't have got to clean the church. And so 232 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:18,960 a couple of years ago, well, actually three or four years ago, he got prepared to go to the 233 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,360 temple and my cousin actually, who just lives across the street from where we are right now, 234 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:29,680 Michael Pinneger, was in the presidency of the of the Provo temple. And I was proxy for my dad and 235 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:36,400 my sister was proxy for my mother. And my cousin performed the ceiling. And my brother heard these 236 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:45,680 words, or similar words, as though you had been born in the covenant. And he would no longer felt 237 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:51,760 like he was a second class citizen in the Lord's kingdom, no longer outside. That's right. Yeah, 238 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,280 that's right. Well, and those are just some of the, well, Jack, let me ask you about the 239 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:05,280 meaning. Let me follow up on that. So how does the atonement really work? I mean, I you've alluded 240 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:11,120 to to service your, your, your brother's statement, what he said, you know, I just started doing 241 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:16,240 everything I'd been taught to do. You're an example of this. So your family, your dad's an 242 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,120 example, your mom and dad are example of this. It sounds like the atonement of Jesus Christ in 243 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:29,280 their lives was administered as they as they served. But how does it how does it really work, Jack? 244 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:37,600 I mean, how, how have you come to the, what have you come to learn as you have watched this about 245 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,760 how does the atonement of Jesus Christ really change us? How does that work? I'll tell you what 246 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:54,240 I what I feel, but the spirit seems to agree. So let me go to Alma 34 verse 31. It's amulet's 247 00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,080 teaching and he's teaching with Alma. So when amulet and Alma talk about redemption and atonement, 248 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,040 I listen. Yeah, they're teaching this or am I and they've had to experience it themselves, 249 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,000 both of them. Remember, amulet says, I heard, but I did not hear. Right. I would not know. I 250 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,320 wouldn't know. I knew all these things. I knew, but I wouldn't know. And Alma the Younger is going 251 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:21,280 about secretly trying to destroy the church. Right. And then he has his great grand conversion, 252 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:28,320 which is in the words of Elder Bednar, he says, well, the reason Alma had his experience and 253 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:34,320 excuse me, Paul had his experience and they didn't have the still small voice like the rest of it, 254 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,760 is that they were so messed up, they could never have discerned the still small voice. 255 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:43,440 They had to have an angel or the Savior come to them because of it. So when they teach, 256 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:51,840 I listen and amulet says something so profound in Alma 34. He says, 257 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,800 yay, I would that you would come forth. Now here's the key to everything and harden not your heart 258 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:06,000 any longer. Stop being hard in your heart. Well, so I say to people who have had 259 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:14,240 addiction or have been abused, I say, okay, this whole thing about forgiving your perpetrator. 260 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,600 All right. Let's say I know we teach that you need to be forgiven. You need to forgive to be 261 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,360 forgiven. However, there are exceptions where what I would ask you is don't harden your heart. 262 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:32,960 Leave a little hole in your heart so that when the forgiveness does come, there's a place for it to go 263 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,000 rather than ricochet off your hardened heart. It'll seep into that little hole. And then he says, 264 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,800 for behold, now is the time in the day of your salvation. And therefore, if you will repent 265 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,960 and harden not your hearts, there it is again. What's the next word? Wow, immediately. Immediately. 266 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,200 Shall the great plan of redemption be brought about under you? The minute you bend your knees, 267 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,760 immediately, the minute you open the scriptures, the minute you seek help, the minute you try, 268 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:10,640 immediately, the atonement is working in your life. You don't have to wait until you're this good or 269 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:18,640 that, you know, it starts immediately. And you are beginning to be healed in your anger, your bitterness, 270 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:27,440 your heartbreak, your disillusionment, your guilt, you know, as Dr. Christensen. I just don't think 271 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:34,960 that guilt is a bad thing. I think it's a gift. I think it is a gift. I think it's a gift. I do too. 272 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:42,720 Pain can be a gift. We talked about that. Absolutely. Because that's how you know. It's like when people 273 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,760 approach me and they're all angry about something they read about Joseph Smith. I ask a couple of 274 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,080 things. Well, first of all, by their fruit, you shall know them. What is Galatians 5? Let's not even go 275 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:57,920 to LDS Latter-day Scripture. Let's go to Galatians, the Apostle Paul. And what does he say, the fruits 276 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,480 of the Spirit are love, joy, peace. Is that what you felt when you read that about Joseph Smith? 277 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,000 Yeah. No, I got angry and I'm mad. They lied to me. Oh, what does that tell you? Exactly. It's not true. 278 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,000 The Spirit does not act that way. And so when you read the truth, the minute you see the truth 279 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:22,160 about yourself, you just have to realize that the Atonement, the grace of Jesus Christ, his 280 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:31,440 forgiveness, his love begins immediately the second you try. And I think too often we think, 281 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,120 well, I'm not good enough. I've done this. I've done that. Well, welcome to the club. 282 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:42,000 Most of us have things in our lives that we struggle with that we wish we didn't have. I have 283 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,680 to deal with anger and with frustration towards some people who falsely accused me. 284 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,720 And they didn't have all, they didn't gather all the information. They thought they did. 285 00:32:54,080 --> 00:33:00,240 And I've tried to reconcile with them and they won't. And it's hard. But this much I know. 286 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:09,200 The minute I bend my knee and I ask Father in the name of Jesus Christ, I got to be healed. 287 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,720 I can't have this. I'm a patriarch. I have to give a blessing. I have to eliminate all contention 288 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,480 in my life, all of it. I have to eliminate all fear, as you know, David. Right. And 289 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,200 section 67 is so clear. You got to get rid of your jealousies. You got to get rid of your fears. 290 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:34,000 And you got to be humble. Well, how do you do that? You have to ask. Well, section 10, verse 21, 291 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,880 the Savior says about the people who stole the lost manuscript. Their whole problem is, 292 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:47,760 they won't ask me. So the instant you start to ask, to pray, to search, to not doubt, 293 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:53,440 but ask all the questions you want. But don't doubt. So, Jack, is it as simple as just 294 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:01,520 looking to the brazen serpent? Yes. But that's what makes it so difficult. It's so easy. 295 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:08,800 Is it that simple, really? Well, for me, it is. I love the term that, you know, Alma uses the 296 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:17,360 term snatched. Yes. I love that term, that he was snatched. Yes. You know, I just, I, we, you know, 297 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:24,400 we've talked about that on this, on this podcast so many times that if we would just look, if you 298 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:31,520 just look to God and live, you know, if we just tried to keep the commandment, to look unto me. 299 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:38,320 Yeah. Look unto me in every thought. Now, I, I know that, that, that's a work of a higher order. 300 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:47,600 Yes, it is. But just the effort, just the effort to do that. Amen. In fact, go to 1st Nephi 1511. 301 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:57,760 Look at what Nephi says. Now, this is right in the, he is trying to deal with his brothers in the dream. 302 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,000 He's interpreting the dream for his brothers. He's interpreting it for them. And so he says in 303 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,880 verse 11, which I believe, and in, in my way of thinking, this is as powerful as Moroni 10, 4, and 5, 304 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,960 and as powerful as ask, and ye shall receive, seek, and ye shall find. 305 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:23,760 So it reads, do ye not remember the things which the Lord has said? Okay, stop. So when you have an 306 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:29,360 issue, whether it's social issue, whether it's gender, whatever it is, what did you forget? 307 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,200 What, yeah, what has the Lord said about this? And where will you find that? What did you forget? 308 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,920 Yes. Scriptures. Why do you not remember? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. How can we remember? Remember, 309 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:45,600 remember. And Nephi goes on, if ye will not harden your hearts and ask me in faith. Okay, stop. So 310 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,280 there it is again. Don't harden your heart. This is so stupid. I'm, I've been hurt by this person. 311 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,960 I've done this. I know, we all have, you just don't know it. All of us carry wounds that we don't 312 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,640 let everybody see. How do we, how do we do that? How do you not harden your heart? Well, I think 313 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:09,920 this is how you not harden it is the very next line. Ask me in faith. Ask me in faith, believing 314 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:16,080 that ye shall receive. Just trust me enough. Just ask me. Believe you'll get an answer. And then 315 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:23,520 the hard part is the next one. Believing that ye shall receive with diligence in keeping my commandments. 316 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:30,160 Now, there's the problem. It's about keeping commandments. Because we don't want anybody 317 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,640 to tell us what to do. And I find that so ironic. We'll come back and finish that verse in a moment. 318 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:42,400 All our lives we want to be free from our parents telling us everything to do. And then when our 319 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,240 heavenly parent, who's a perfect parent, far better than our earthly parents says, well, 320 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:54,160 you can make that decision on your own. I trust you. Oh, it's not true then. I'm gonna, I'm gonna 321 00:36:54,160 --> 00:37:02,160 quit because I didn't get that answer when I wanted it. Well, you know, he loves us. And then 322 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,520 he says, what's the last thing in there? It says, if you'll do those things. Surely these things 323 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:14,400 shall be made known unto you. Yeah, I know it's true. And I love the word surely. Surely. It's a fact. 324 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,840 You remember what the Lord said, don't harden your heart. Ask me in faith. Believe you'll get an 325 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:25,840 answer. Try to your best to keep the commandments and learn to repent all the time. I repent all 326 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:34,400 the time. Yeah, we all should. I was driving a few days ago, and I nearly hit a guy, because he 327 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:42,560 just stopped right in front of me to turn into Macy's. And I, you jerk. And I immediately, I 328 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:48,160 said, wait a minute, I'm giving a patriarchal blessing in two days. Right. Heavenly Father, 329 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:54,480 I am so sorry. I am the jerk. Please forgive me. I'll do all I can to never let that happen again. 330 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,600 And I think one of the things with the atonement is, is we need to learn from Brigham Young. 331 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:07,200 He said, I never performed a priesthood ordinance that I was not worthy. Well, when I first read 332 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:14,640 that, I thought, I'm lost. I had that lots of times. But then he describes how to do it. He said, 333 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:22,560 I go before the Lord and I say this, Father, please cleanse me through the holy blood of the Lamb. 334 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:29,040 And I will try never to do this again with all my heart. I'll try, but please cleanse me through 335 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:34,880 the holy blood of the Lamb. And if there's anything else I need to repent of, before I get up off my 336 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:40,960 knees, well, I'll bring it to my mind right now. Otherwise, I will consider this matter closed. 337 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,520 And he says, I just get up and go do it. And if it's not a major transgression that would affect 338 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,560 your membership in the church, that you need your help from your priesthood leaders, 339 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,680 then I think we need to get over ourselves and just say, Heavenly Father, I'm going to try never 340 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:01,280 to do that again. And then if we, if we mess up, always remember what Elder Scott and Elder 341 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,560 Renland have taught us, that there's a major difference between human weakness and open rebellion. 342 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:12,000 Yeah, we just talked about that. Last episode. Well, yeah, but keep going because this is good. 343 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,400 You're following up on what we just talked about. I just can't get over how important that is. 344 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,840 Okay, so you drop back in, you fall off the wagon. Does that mean you're lost? No. 345 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:28,160 Yeah. You just immediately, the second you bend your knees, the second you try, the second you 346 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:34,080 resist, see as Louis said, nobody knows about temptation till they resist it. Yeah, it's true. 347 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,920 Right. Don't tell me that you know about temptation if you've never had to resist it. 348 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,000 That's why Jesus knew more about temptation than anybody. Then we'll never know about it. 349 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,280 That's right, because he resisted it every single time. We give into it. 350 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,400 And you faced all of it. All of it. Everything that you and I face. All our temptations, 351 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,920 all our infirmities, everything that says an effect of the fall of Adam and Eve, Jesus Christ 352 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:05,360 felt that. That's right. And so what we have to do is get over all of the social talk, the senseless, 353 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:12,480 ceaseless talking of the world about why you shouldn't do this or why you should just do you 354 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,440 and don't. Well, how about let's do what the Savior wants us to do. Once you know he's real, 355 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,680 why do I keep the commandments for one simple reason? I just love him. Yeah. And you and I 356 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:30,320 have talked about this, David. True love casteth out all fear. Perfect love. And it's all fear. 357 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:37,120 Well, go back just a minute. So it's not just the social stuff they hear, Jack. It's the accuser. 358 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:42,720 Oh, you know, it's revelation 12 worse than that. It's the accuser. That's right. In fact, 359 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:47,120 Joseph Smith taught. He didn't teach them all at one time. But through his ministry, 360 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:53,680 he taught we there are four things we should never do for things. Now there are my personal 361 00:40:53,680 --> 00:41:01,440 formula for what you should do is every day, scriptures, prayer, prophets, service, temple. 362 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:09,520 Then I've added two others. Beautiful music and study church history from legitimate sources. 363 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,560 Not everything on the Internet. Go to legitimate sources. But Joseph taught four things we should 364 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:24,000 never do if we want to have the spirit. Number one, we never aspire. What was Satan's big deal? 365 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:35,440 He aspired to be God. Yeah. Yeah. And and you go to Alvin Babbit in section 124 verse 84. 366 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:41,600 Yeah, the golden calf. Yeah, he wanted to he didn't want to follow the prophet. He aspired to be 367 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:48,160 the one that would make decisions. Yeah. Okay. So never aspire. Number two, never accuse. 368 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:54,800 What is Satan's main MO? Yeah, he's their user. That's his title. Day and night. That's right. 369 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,880 Number three, never contend. What does it say in 30? President Nelson just give a talk about that, 370 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:06,960 right? Yeah. And and contention. Satan is the father of contention. Yes. Who stireth up the 371 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,840 hearts of men to contend with anger one against another. Behold, I say unto you, this is not my 372 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:18,160 doctrine, but this is my doctrine. Christ says that all these things should such things should be done away. 373 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,600 And I think Jack, much of that contention and anger is because of fear. Oh, absolutely. You 374 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:29,600 know, you got angry at the guy the other day because you were afraid. Yeah, I almost could have 375 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:36,320 cost him his life. I know, I know. I think fear is the source of most contention. I agree. So that's 376 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:44,960 the third. Do not contend. And the fourth is never coarse. And remember, what was the chapter four 377 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:54,320 where Satan, what was the battle about? He tried to take away the agency of man. Well, I think one 378 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,360 way he did that, Jack, was not so much he was going to force to keep the commandments because I don't 379 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:06,960 think he had any intention to keep. He had no desire to have anything about commandments. He 380 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:13,360 was going to coerce us or force us by taking away accountability. That's all right. I'll save you no 381 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,080 matter what. That's right. I'll save you even if you don't want to be saved. And you don't have to 382 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:23,440 do anything. That's right. And my personal feeling is, and maybe I shouldn't say this, I don't want 383 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,400 him to come after me, which he always does anyway. And by the way, just wait until if you would 384 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:35,680 you become a patriarch or a patriarch spouse, you're attacked. Yes, you're attacked more than 385 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,080 anything I've ever done. I've done everything you can do in the church except be a member of the 12, 386 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,720 which I never want. But I'll tell you this, I've never been worked on harder. I hated 387 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:53,600 state conference. And I hate to admit that because a couple of weeks before and after I had all these 388 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:59,360 talks when you were state president, yes, I was just brutally beat up. And I tell people you be 389 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:08,640 careful what you ask for because I don't think you realize. So but but a statement I've always used 390 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:14,720 as if you're being beat up, just remember this, Satan don't kick no dead dogs. Yeah, it's kind of 391 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:19,600 a good sign, isn't it? Yeah, I used to tell my students, you know, the closer you get to Jesus, 392 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:28,080 the harder it gets in the more your sins and weaknesses even look loom larger, they look 393 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:34,240 larger. They, you know, if you're feeling adversity in your life, then you know you're doing something 394 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:40,560 right. That's right. And James teaches us that if we will resist the devil, he'll flee from us. 395 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:48,800 Now he'll be back for sure. But with his buddies, but he'll leave. And I even sometimes I never 396 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:54,720 cease. Sorry, I get emotional. I don't mean to. I call upon the name of Jesus Christ, 397 00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,960 whenever I need to, I'll cast out evil spirits. I don't care. I am not going to give in. I don't 398 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:08,000 want to give any place for Satan in my life. I know what power he has. President Packer said, 399 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:14,880 I will not consent to any influence from the adversary. Well, I love the Savior. That's why 400 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,280 I live the Word of wisdom. I love the Savior. That's why I want to live the law of chastity. 401 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:25,760 I love the Savior. That's why I want to pay tithing. It's not a big deal to me. I just love him. 402 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:32,400 Thanks for everything. Boy, what is 10%? Yeah, right. And I have needed help in the past. I don't 403 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,440 mind. I love to pay fast offering. Well, it's it's out of love. And it's also out of gratitude. 404 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:43,040 We've talked about that gratitude. Gratitude is the beginning of desire. By the way, that's from 405 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:51,120 Ed Pininger. Yeah, gratitude is the beginning of desire. Gratitude is a is an attitude that 406 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,640 just really makes a difference in our life and our ability to change. I try. Well, share with 407 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:03,120 us some more examples, Jack. I will. Let me say individuals and and not just what they did, but 408 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:11,600 how okay, the how the Savior changed them. Well, let me or you say this. I think it's important 409 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:17,040 that our listeners realize that when you keep the commandments, when you strive with all your 410 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:22,480 heart to serve the Lord, it doesn't mean that all your problems will go away. But it gives you the 411 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,880 foundation and the vision and the heart to deal with them. Yeah, and the reservoir of faith. 412 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:35,040 That's right. Parenting, marriage, all sorts of things. It's a matter of the heart. 413 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,800 Right. Where's your heart? Yeah, for sure. And that and that takes spiritual, 414 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:47,120 where's your heart? Only gained by making it present oak said by making a succession of correct 415 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:54,400 chores choices over long periods of time. Small and simple and patient, be patient. You're not 416 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:59,920 going to hell. Just keep trying. Yeah. Let me give you one that we talked about just a little bit 417 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:08,480 before. When Scott told me the story of a man that that came over and told him that that I love you. 418 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:15,200 And this one, Scott was just three. Yeah, Scott was coming back. Let me let me. So let me just 419 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,680 kind of preface this and then I'll let you please let you jump in from there. So when when Deb and 420 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:26,400 I first moved into this house, the one that we're in right now, it was about 17 or 18 ish years ago. 421 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,680 And I my membership had been lifted, which was a great blessing. And we've talked about that. 422 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,240 But my membership had been lifted. And I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder at that time. 423 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:43,200 And we moved in here and you know how things go. The the elders corn president wanted to meet with 424 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:50,720 me and I reluctantly agreed and went and the first thing he said to me when I got there and I love 425 00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:56,880 this man today, when I first got there, Alan McNeil said to me, he said, Scott, I just want you to 426 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,520 know that we love you. How much we absolutely love you. And and that just rub me wrong. Because of the 427 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,960 chip on my shoulder, right? My heart wasn't soft. My show shoulder had a big chip on it. And I just 428 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:15,040 got up I said, you don't know me. Don't tell me that until you know me and I left. Well, here it 429 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:20,000 is 17 years ish later a couple years ago, I was called to be the elders corn president in this 430 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:28,560 same ward. And it almost immediately Jack when when I got set apart and I was going through the 431 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:34,880 list on the website of the elders in our ward and some of them I didn't know. Yeah. And I loved them. 432 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,840 And I felt this great, enduring, powerful love just enveloped me, which you didn't 433 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:48,880 just decide you were going to do it's not beyond your ability. Well, not only beyond my ability, 434 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,760 but it was even beyond my intentions. I hadn't even considered that it wasn't even something. 435 00:48:53,760 --> 00:49:00,800 In fact, it's a gift. In fact, this this experience with Brother McNeil had left my mind 436 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,520 until almost that time. And so here I am sitting in this very office that we're in and I'm going 437 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:12,080 through that and I feel that and I just needed to go see Alan. And I said, Alan, I owe you a huge 438 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:19,600 men's 15 ish plus years later, because I know now that love that you expressed to me. And he 439 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:25,360 just smiled, you know, gave me a big hug and and all that. So that was that's kind of the beginning 440 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:31,680 of that story, Jack. Well, and I I almost hesitate because I haven't received his permission to share 441 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:38,480 this. But then at our 40 year class reunion, which was held two years early, because they were 442 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:44,000 demolishing our high school, I had been called and I was leaving a month later to be the mission 443 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:49,840 president of the New York Rochester Mission. And after our meeting and after our dinner and everything, 444 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,920 Brother McNeil took me aside and shared with me some of the feelings he had had because of 445 00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:01,760 something I had said and done when we were in high school. And he was absolutely justified. 446 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,480 I was I was wrong. It's just something stupid. It's just something stupid, not to anyone, 447 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:12,240 particularly I just told a story about some things. And and I was on the Seminary Council in high 448 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,880 school on my senior year. And that was totally inappropriate for the leader of the Seminary 449 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:23,680 or a leader of the Seminary to say something like that. So Alan felt bad that, okay, well, 450 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:31,360 maybe I shouldn't go to seminary. That's the kind of guy that's leading it. And then he he struggled 451 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:39,360 with feelings about a mission because of me. Wow. And now, 40 years later, he's telling me begging, 452 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:47,920 begging me to forgive him. And I said, and I wish everyone could have been there. I had my arms 453 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,320 around the back of his head. And he has his around mine. And we're forehead to forehead. 454 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,640 And I don't care what anybody thought. Two big grown men crying football players. He was great. 455 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:04,960 He was our linebacker and I was a quarterback. And I it came to me, I said, just think of what 456 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:12,160 we've just learned from each other. I said, I beg your forgiveness. I said, I didn't understand what 457 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:19,200 it meant to be a priesthood holder when I was 17. I didn't get it. And I beg your forgiveness. 458 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:26,160 And you didn't have to wait 40 years. So look at what we've learned. If you had come to me sooner, 459 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,920 and I had known and you had known, we both could have saved ourselves a lot of pain 460 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:42,000 because the Savior knows our hearts. And to this day, every time I see him or his lovely wife, 461 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:51,120 I have the most sweet, beautiful, loving, healed feelings that one could possibly have. And I 462 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:56,400 believe he has those for me as well. For sure. Yeah. Can I mention one real quick? Please. 463 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:03,600 Please. My daughter who is divorced, a single mother with four children, 464 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,120 she could have given up when everything that happened. It's just been a disaster. 465 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:21,440 But what she has done is just said, no, I choose to believe. I choose to be faithful no matter 466 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:27,040 what's happened to me. She's working on a master's degree. She's working full time. She's trying to 467 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:34,080 raise these kids. She's the gospel doctrine teacher. I share this because she has been such an example 468 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:40,320 of the very thing you talk about in this podcast that she just said, okay, and does she get discouraged? 469 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:46,800 Of course. Does she want to quit at times? Of course. But the whole point is I choose to be 470 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:52,400 a disciple of Jesus Christ. And I'm going to put my discipleship of the Savior above everyone and 471 00:52:52,400 --> 00:53:00,560 everything else in my life. And as a result, it has saved her. That's the bottom line, Jack. 472 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:06,800 That's right. It's saved is a relationship. That's right with the Savior. If all of us would just 473 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,400 everything he's asked us to do, all the commandments, all the covenants, everything about the temple, 474 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:20,480 anything that we can have a closer relationship with him. That's right. And with our father. 475 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:26,640 Yeah, absolutely. Be connected. Be bound. And the Holy Ghost will be with us even when we think 476 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:34,000 it's not. Always remember 3rd Nephi 9 20 where the Lamanites had the Holy Ghost and they knew it not. 477 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:39,680 Right. And Sidney Riggan in section 35, the Lord was using him all the time and he didn't even know 478 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:45,200 it. Right. Well, I just want to thank each of you. No, thank you, Jack. For this privilege. And I know 479 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,680 the things we've talked about are true. I know the Savior lives and he redeems us through his Holy 480 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:56,720 Blood. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Jack, thank you. We didn't have enough 481 00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:02,800 time. I wanted to hear the story about your, the missionary story that you told me. Yeah. 482 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,960 And I haven't written down here, but I didn't get it. Maybe I can come back and tell it. 483 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:13,760 Would you? Yes, I would. Oh, we'd love that. If you'd come back, we could hear a few more stories 484 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:20,640 that I know that our listeners not only would love to hear, but they need to hear. So it's 485 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:27,120 always so great to be with you, Jack, and talk the gospel and see the light of Jack's eyes and 486 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:35,600 feel the conviction in his voice and to a witness over the years as I have the goodness of his heart. 487 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,360 So thank you so much, Jack. Sure, love and appreciate you. Thank you. 488 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:45,600 You're, you're a dear friend. Thanks so much for being with us, Jack. Thanks, David, for your 489 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:54,880 insights and questions, etc. We hope that you have absolutely felt the redeeming love and the, 490 00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:01,520 the, the, through the Holy Ghost, the, the cleansing power that comes to us through a knowledge of 491 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:08,880 getting to know him, of having the ability, having our desires increase as our gratitude grows. And 492 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,640 I think that, Jack, what you've done to us is given us a deeper gratitude. You know, your insights 493 00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:22,000 have definitely imposed on me a deeper gratitude with that comes, a greater desire with that desire 494 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,800 comes. Hopefully if I'll act on that desire, which I commit to do even a deeper desire, 495 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:32,160 discipleship in following our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Thanks for being with us, Jack and 496 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:37,120 Dave. Thanks for being with us, everybody else. We look forward to being with you again next week 497 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:57,760 and remember that you have been redeemed through his blood.