1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:20,560 Hey there everybody, welcome back to another episode of Redeem Through His Blood. 2 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Scott Durfey here, joined as always by David Durfey. 3 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,360 Hey Scott. 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,360 How are you David? 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:26,360 Great. 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:27,360 Good to be here. 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,360 Good to be back. 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:29,360 Yeah. 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,480 We've had a little bit of a break. 10 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:37,160 It wasn't intentional and I know that there were several days between each of the last 11 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:38,160 two podcasts. 12 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:39,160 We apologize for that. 13 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:43,280 We ran into some life stuff that just kind of derailed this. 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,640 Last episode though, we made an announcement that we were drawn this to a close. 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,880 That close is coming, but we're kicking the can down the road, right Dave? 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,880 We are. 17 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Yeah. 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:55,880 As far as we can. 19 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:56,880 Still the plan. 20 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:57,880 As far as we can. 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,360 The best thing about it is we made that announcement last, whenever we recorded last, and then 22 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,200 we stood in my driveway and we both looked each other like, oh my gosh, this is coming 23 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,200 to an end. 24 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,200 I'm not sure I want this to happen. 25 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,000 We'll go until I'm out of the state or country or whatever. 26 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Yeah. 27 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,960 And then he'll probably say, let's figure out a way to do it over the phone. 28 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:16,960 So I don't know. 29 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:18,160 We'll see how this goes. 30 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,160 I'm excited. 31 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,240 This last week though, when's the last time you were at the Grand Canyon? 32 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,480 Yeah, it's been two years. 33 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,440 I rode with a bunch of guys that I ride motorcycles with. 34 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,440 It's kind of funny. 35 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,880 All these guys that I ride motorcycles with, we look like a real bad motorcycle gang, but 36 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,600 every one of us are Melchizedek Priest and holders. 37 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,400 I'm sure you are a bad motorcycle. 38 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,080 And we call ourselves the Quorum, but we rode down there a couple of years ago. 39 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:43,080 It was amazing. 40 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,480 You just got back from there. 41 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,080 Stayed in the Kaibab Forest. 42 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,280 Wow, that Grand Canyon. 43 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,280 You know, Scott, I saw that when I was a little kid and I kind of remember it from the South 44 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Rim, but I've never been to the North Rim. 45 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:02,720 So to go to the North Rim and to kind of tour around there, that was an amazing experience. 46 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,160 You know, that thing is like 200 miles long. 47 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,760 It's 20, it's one of the Seven Wonders of the World. 48 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,480 There was a person there from Holland. 49 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,760 And I said, you know, this is one of the Seven Wonders of the World. 50 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:22,680 And they said, it is, you know, people don't, right in our backyard, we, I don't know if 51 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:29,080 it's in our backyard, but just south of us is one of the Seven Wonders, natural, natural 52 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,120 wonders of the world. 53 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:37,680 200 miles long, 20 miles wide, more than a mile, more than a mile. 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:38,680 Deep. 55 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Deep. 56 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,480 I think it's 6,000 something feet deep. 57 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:43,480 Yeah. 58 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,480 It's unbelievable. 59 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,240 You know, there's probably a lot of our listeners that do this too. 60 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,520 But you know, Jane, Brian's wife, she does a rim to rim run every year. 61 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,520 Oh my gosh. 62 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,920 She'll start at one rim, run down into the canyon, run, what? 63 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:02,400 Run down into the canyon, run through the canyon, and then up out of the canyon. 64 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,320 Oh my goodness. 65 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:05,320 Pretty incredible, right? 66 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,320 That is incredible. 67 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,320 Wow. 68 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:08,320 Yeah. 69 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Well, I'm glad you had a great time. 70 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:16,000 I wish you luck to Dave's going in tomorrow for some medical equipment change. 71 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Yeah. 72 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Yeah. 73 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:25,200 I'm not great at having surgery, but I guess I'm going to have to find out. 74 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,280 Bite the bullet. 75 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:27,280 Yeah. 76 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,280 Yeah. 77 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,280 We have a good looking guest. 78 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,760 You know, it is a good looking super. 79 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:32,760 I think super excited. 80 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,720 Some man that's super in the room with us today. 81 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,320 Super excited to have Craig with us today. 82 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,280 Craig's a really good friend of mine. 83 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:41,280 Craig say hello. 84 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:46,320 Hey, I'm happy to be on the podcast with you guys. 85 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,360 Yeah, we're glad to have you here, buddy. 86 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:54,760 So I've known Craig for, I think we decided 13 or 15 years, maybe even more. 87 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:00,400 Been pretty close friends over a good, good part of that over the last few years, especially 88 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:06,760 we've become especially close and working together in recovery and our own recovery 89 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,400 and others recoveries and just just a good, good man here. 90 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:19,080 So Craig, we brought you here because we, as we've done in the past, you know, we've 91 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,320 done a lot of interviews of people whose lives have been affected for the positive by the 92 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,880 Atonement of Jesus Christ. 93 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,160 It's interesting that I chose to use the word positive. 94 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,120 All effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ are positive in our lives. 95 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,120 Right. 96 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,120 Right. 97 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:41,720 And I've seen, I've been able to be witness to not all, but a lot of the miracles that 98 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,480 have taken place in your life because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 99 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,560 I know that you've been listening to the podcast and been, you know, kind of a, I guess I'm 100 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,880 hesitant to use the word fan. 101 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:52,880 No, I have been a fan. 102 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,560 Kind of a fan of the podcast at least. 103 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:57,560 follower. 104 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:58,560 Yeah. 105 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,160 And from what you've told me, because of the things that we talk about here and the things 106 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,600 that the Spirit has taught you through the things that we talk about here, you've seen 107 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,120 some big changes in your life. 108 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,120 Oh, definitely. 109 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:19,560 And my life has been enriched by listening to you two and, and examining and implementing 110 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,360 the principles of the Atonement that you guys speak of here. 111 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,360 And, and that's what I kind of would like to share today. 112 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:29,360 Yeah. 113 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,360 So Craig, talk to us a little bit. 114 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,240 Tell us, you know, what you'd like to about your growing up and, you know, did you grow 115 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:36,520 up in the church? 116 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,680 Were you in an active family? 117 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,560 Give us just a little bit of background. 118 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:41,560 Okay. 119 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:42,560 Yeah. 120 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,960 So my name is Craig Marks. 121 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:52,320 I was born in Price, Utah to two lovely people. 122 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,800 Is there anything lovely in price? 123 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,720 Well, sorry, Price. 124 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:58,720 I love Price. 125 00:05:58,720 --> 00:05:59,720 Nine mile. 126 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:00,720 Yeah. 127 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,240 There's great things down there. 128 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:12,120 And my folks are from there and they met in high school and fell in love and got married 129 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,240 very young. 130 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:20,120 And then they had a daughter, my sister, and then me and we, they started a life together 131 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,720 and, and we had a really awesome life there. 132 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:31,280 They've been amazing parents to me for sure. 133 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:37,480 Everybody I know from Price are good people, you know, the Woodruff's, the McDonald's, 134 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:45,520 the, I think even, oh, forget their names. 135 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,360 But anyway, there's so many people that, that I have known come out of that little teeny 136 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,240 town and just salt of the earth, good people. 137 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,800 Yeah, that's a great place. 138 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,240 And we just found out that they're going to be building a temple there. 139 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Isn't that amazing? 140 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:02,240 Wasn't it awesome? 141 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,240 Just enough. 142 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,720 So there will be something lovely in Price. 143 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:06,720 That's right. 144 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,640 My, my family down there, they're, I'm sure, very excited about that. 145 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:12,640 That's so exciting. 146 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,320 It'll be, it'll be great. 147 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Right. 148 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,320 Yeah. 149 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,720 So growing up in Price, I love to play baseball. 150 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,640 I'm a, from a family of five kids. 151 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:34,400 I'm the second in line and was born there and had a great childhood, just really remarkable. 152 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:40,320 My parents are both active members, Christians, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day 153 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:51,480 Saints and, and they have been really instrumental in helping me to come to know Jesus. 154 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,360 And, and that's what I'd like to share today. 155 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:06,080 The, my journey kind of starts, I guess, with a diagnosis of a problem that I had as a child. 156 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,400 In the first grade, I started to have this limp and this problem was observed that I 157 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:17,400 had with my hip and it's a condition called Perthes disease. 158 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,160 And it's something that happens occasionally to kids. 159 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:27,400 It's a congenital disorder, degenerative disorder of the hip. 160 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:35,240 And so I had to wear a brace for a couple of years during my grade school years. 161 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,160 That can be hard, huh? 162 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,160 It was hard. 163 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,160 It was very hard. 164 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:44,000 And I think I was born a very sensitive kid as it is. 165 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:50,640 And so wearing a brace that strapped onto both legs was a difficult thing for me as 166 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:58,560 a child as I started to become very aware of what I thought people thought of me. 167 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:07,640 And so it's a very common thread in recovery stories that you'll hear is we become very 168 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:14,640 concerned with what our image is and what we think others think of us. 169 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:15,640 Absolutely. 170 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:21,760 And so that started for me at a very young age and then, you know, but that didn't slow 171 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,280 me down very much in spite of those difficulties. 172 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:31,360 I had an amazing childhood, even got to play sports. 173 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,360 My favorite sport is baseball and I got to play that through high school and even a little 174 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,120 bit in college. 175 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,400 And it was that hip condition limited me somewhat. 176 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:50,320 But so when I was 14, I went to my family moved to Roosevelt, Utah. 177 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,040 My mom got a teaching job out there and that took our family there. 178 00:09:54,040 --> 00:10:01,160 It was a really miraculous thing that needed to happen as we found out later that our family 179 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,280 needed to move there. 180 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:10,240 And Roosevelt is a dear place and my parents still live there. 181 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:16,000 So we're our family shifted over there and I went to Union High School in Roosevelt and 182 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:23,120 played baseball and graduated from Union High in 1997. 183 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:29,400 And yeah, it was just life and trying to be a good young man, you know, everything sounds 184 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,200 like it's right on track. 185 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,680 So far, Craig, what happened? 186 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:42,120 So along the way, as I think I experienced a lot of the same travails and difficulties 187 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:49,000 that most young men in and out of the church experience, I had difficulties with things 188 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,120 like pornography, for example. 189 00:10:53,120 --> 00:11:04,680 And I always wanted to, I tried to keep the gospel in my life. 190 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,600 It meant a lot to me. 191 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,080 But I started to have difficulties with things like that, struggles. 192 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:21,280 And I started to notice that I was very susceptible to certain devices, I guess you would say, 193 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:27,600 of the adversary and I certainly was. 194 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:33,200 And then so I ended up serving a mission in Mexico for two years. 195 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,600 It was a great experience. 196 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:42,000 And then came home and this hip problem that I mentioned, it kind of came home to Roost. 197 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,200 It started to have issues. 198 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:52,000 I met a gal down when I was going to school at SUU in Cedar City. 199 00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:00,360 We met and dated and got married and kind of began our lives together. 200 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:10,680 But there was this lingering problem that would kind of rear its ugly head essentially. 201 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:12,320 Let me just push pause here for just a second. 202 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,920 I want to come back to this lingering problem, but I just kind of want to get a feel right 203 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:22,160 now for at this point in your life, what was your relationship with deity like? 204 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,160 How was that? 205 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,880 What was that all like at that time? 206 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:31,920 And before you start on that, before you, let me ask you some specific questions about 207 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:32,920 that. 208 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,240 So you went on a mission. 209 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,600 So you said this all started in high school, union high school. 210 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:47,160 And you were involved in other things. 211 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:52,240 So did you feel like you really repented before you went on your mission? 212 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:53,240 Absolutely. 213 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,520 Yeah, I went through the process of repentance. 214 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:04,520 Not as I know it today, but definitely the best I did. 215 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:10,040 What role did the savior play in your repentance in when you were 18, 19 years old? 216 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,680 Well, I read the miracle of forgiveness. 217 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:16,120 Didn't understand it. 218 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,040 And I just wanted to scared you though. 219 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,040 It scared me. 220 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,040 And and it did its work. 221 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:27,400 I mean, for 50 years, that book was printed and did its work and got got people to go 222 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,160 see their bishop and clean up their lives for sure. 223 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:32,160 Yeah. 224 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:39,880 I, it got me wanting to do good, right things, you know, and it put me on the 225 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,080 covenant path and I wanted to serve a mission. 226 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,960 I knew that I needed to serve a mission. 227 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,720 I felt that in my heart. 228 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,920 And so I became worthy to do that and thankfully was able to go. 229 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:57,320 And what kind of missionary would you say you were and was the savior? 230 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,520 Did he become more important part of your life? 231 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Yes, absolutely. 232 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,560 Those two years are, I look back with fondness on them. 233 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:10,480 I, I poured my heart and soul into my missionary service in Mexico. 234 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,040 I really enjoyed that time. 235 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,360 I dedicated my life to the savior and trying to help others. 236 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:26,320 And as I've learned, you know, in recent years, let's say the last 10 or 12 years, 237 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,440 people with addictions, we have to have a purpose. 238 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:38,040 And I think at that time in my life, my purpose was in being a missionary filled that void 239 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:45,080 that I would later fill, you know, in my life that I experienced as a missionary. 240 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,120 I had that. 241 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,240 So I served that mission honorably and had an amazing experience. 242 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,920 I love the people of Mexico. 243 00:14:52,920 --> 00:15:00,920 I came home and I just started to have troubles spiritually falling off the covenant path. 244 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:07,240 If we want to use that as the, I love, I love that President Nelson speaks of that, that 245 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,320 way, the covenant path, because it makes it very clear. 246 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,240 You know, a person knows if they're on or off the covenant path. 247 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:22,520 And, and I started to fall off of the covenant path and without getting into specifics. 248 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:29,720 My spiritual connection with the savior specifically started to dwindle, even having had those really 249 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,680 remarkable experiences for two years. 250 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,600 Craig, can I ask you a question? 251 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:35,600 Yeah. 252 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:36,600 Did you really fall off? 253 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,960 Because when we fall off something, that seems like that was accidental. 254 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:40,960 All right. 255 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,080 You know, or was there more? 256 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,240 I just wasn't directing my intentions correctly. 257 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:56,760 Yeah, it definitely was the result of not taking care of things that I knew I needed 258 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,880 to do with regard to the gospel. 259 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,800 So sometimes when we fall, it's because we lose our grip. 260 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,800 Absolutely. 261 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:05,800 Yeah. 262 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Yeah. 263 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:13,160 It was the difference between losing your grip or that and choosing another path. 264 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,160 What's the difference? 265 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,120 Well, I mean, is there, is there a difference? 266 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,320 It can be hazy. 267 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,320 I'm asking you. 268 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Yeah. 269 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,320 You guys see this. 270 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,320 Yeah. 271 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:22,320 So to me, there is no difference, right? 272 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,720 I mean, initially, it can feel like there's a difference because initially we can think, 273 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,840 oh, my gosh, look where I am. 274 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:29,840 How did I get here? 275 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,480 But if we go back and take a real inventory, right, Craig? 276 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,880 If we go back and take a real moral and searching, fearless inventory of ourselves, we'll realize 277 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,480 that we started making decisions or we quit making decisions that would keep us on the 278 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,480 path. 279 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:52,400 And when we do that, you know, even though it may, it may seem accidental, it was intentional 280 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,440 because our focus was lost, our intent was lost. 281 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,600 And when we do that, then, you know, that's an intent. 282 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600 And when that happens, then when you, you said something really interesting there, Scott, 283 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,400 you said, when we, when we choose, we didn't say choose, but when we stop making decisions. 284 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,400 Yeah. 285 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,400 The right decisions. 286 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,400 When you stop choosing. 287 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,400 Yeah. 288 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,240 When you walk on the covenant path, you have chosen to walk on another path, which is a 289 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,240 decision, which is a decision. 290 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,240 Right. 291 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:21,240 Absolutely. 292 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:27,520 I think that's the key principle with all of this is the principle of agency, you know, 293 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,920 and how, how and accountability and accountability, how we use our agency and then what the results 294 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,640 of that are. 295 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:44,680 And so I, I experienced that in full force and, and Craig, we know, I know, I know personally 296 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,520 that you have accountability, you know, and I, but I want to point that out because I 297 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:55,160 think there's a lot of us, all of us at some points will refer to, well, I fell or well, 298 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,640 I stumbled or well, I, this happened to me, you know, or even, even the phrase, you know, 299 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,800 what the phrase that bothers me lately is I'm broken. 300 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:04,800 Yeah. 301 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,400 And it makes it sound like there's nothing I could have done about that. 302 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,400 I'm just broken. 303 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,400 Uh-huh. 304 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,040 I fell off the shelf and I know what they're saying and there's, you know, but I just, 305 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,800 there's no accountability in that. 306 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:17,800 Yeah. 307 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:18,800 Right. 308 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,800 Yeah. 309 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,120 And if there's no accountability, there's no solution because if seriously, if we're, 310 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:27,560 if we are unaccountable for our progress, then there can be no progress. 311 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,720 So what's a better way to say it? 312 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,600 Instead of saying I fell off or instead of saying I'm broken, what do we say? 313 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:35,600 We own it. 314 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:36,840 I made bad choices. 315 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:37,840 Yeah. 316 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:44,120 I chose, I chose these things and this was the result of my, I knew better. 317 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,320 I knew I should move. 318 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,200 I knew I, I, I can imagine the consequences, but I made the choice anyway. 319 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,200 We just don't know. 320 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,240 Well, we just chose to take a little detour from your story. 321 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:54,240 Sorry about that. 322 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,240 Yeah. 323 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:56,880 But, but no, this is important. 324 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:57,880 That's really important. 325 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:03,200 Because I, I think the, the points that come out in our stories, if we don't, if we don't 326 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,920 make them known to others, maybe they get missed and that's a really important. 327 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,920 Yeah. 328 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,640 That's a subtle, but important, very important truth. 329 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,560 And I think it'll come through and correct me if I'm wrong. 330 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,520 In fact, you know, I'm saying this without fear of successful contradiction for you, 331 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:24,160 but, but you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it will come out that all of that's true 332 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,160 for you too. 333 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,280 You know, that you make a decision to turn your will in your life over again, right? 334 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,440 Eventually and so forth. 335 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,000 So, you know, how did all of this start to point you in the right direction? 336 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,000 Yeah. 337 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:44,080 So, um, after coming home from serving a mission, uh, I, I met, as I mentioned, uh, a gal and 338 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,360 Cedar, Cedar city and, uh, were you playing baseball down there? 339 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:49,360 Yeah. 340 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,040 I, I played in the fall and then decided it wasn't for me anymore. 341 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,240 I, that wasn't, uh, time to move on, time to move on and get a career. 342 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:04,360 And I wanted to, uh, grow up, I guess, uh, I felt the, the need to do that. 343 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:13,000 So I, my pursuits in school, I, I was drawn toward chemistry and decided to go into pharmacy 344 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,960 as a profession. 345 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,600 Um, I did well in chemistry and pharmacy. 346 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:27,480 And so I met these awesome mentors down there and, um, and I pursued that path, got married, 347 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,720 uh, in the process. 348 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:36,040 And then we began, began a family, having a family together, had a son together and eventually 349 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,680 would have three kids, um, with each other, three, three other kids, uh, three daughters 350 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:42,680 also. 351 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:52,760 Um, but at, after SUU, I graduated from there and then I went on to pharmacy school at Creighton 352 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,520 University in Omaha, Nebraska. 353 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:56,520 Yeah. 354 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,520 Many times. 355 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,520 Yeah. 356 00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:59,520 It's a wonderful place. 357 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Uh, so I went to graduate school there. 358 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,200 First, first generation graduate student in my family. 359 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,600 My, my mom was actually the first generation, uh, college graduate. 360 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:17,600 So we were breaking these barriers that hadn't been broken in, in our families. 361 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:25,120 Um, and it felt really awesome to, to pursue these educational things, you know? 362 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:31,840 Um, but I went to graduate school, uh, pharmacy school and I wanted to have this career that 363 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:39,840 was safe and, and was, um, provided security for my family and all of those things. 364 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,560 I wanted to be a good provider, good husband, good father, all of those things. 365 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:53,400 Well, through, in the course of pharmacy school, um, my hip condition started to, uh, worsen 366 00:21:53,400 --> 00:22:01,640 and I, I went to the doctor and I started to get a prescription for pain medication. 367 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,240 Uh, that's how it began. 368 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:09,760 Um, and I knew that that was a very slippery slope, but I did it anyway. 369 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,040 I went on that path. 370 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:18,600 I had taken, um, uh, opiate pain medication in high school after an injury that I had 371 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:28,040 sledding and I knew that that chemical, those chemicals really, um, I knew that they spoke 372 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:35,760 to me that they had a very strong, uh, uh, influence on me personally. 373 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,920 It changed something about me essentially. 374 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,380 And knowing that I still went down that path. 375 00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:43,520 So that was a choice. 376 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,440 That was where I used my agency. 377 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,000 Um, and I started down this pain management path. 378 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,960 I needed pain management because I was in severe pain from my hip, but what was your 379 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,600 activity in the gospel? 380 00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,600 Jesus Christ. 381 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:05,080 Uh, at that time, I was actually the elders corn president in Nebraska in the ward that 382 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,560 that we were living in. 383 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,560 Yeah. 384 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:15,000 And I spiritually, I was doing, I felt that I was doing well and I was still trying to 385 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:21,840 help people and all of those things, but I hadn't, you know, in recovery, we talk a 386 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,600 lot about you stand at the turning point. 387 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,160 We stood at the turning point. 388 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,160 Yeah. 389 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,880 That was when, if I look back on my life and my history, that's one of those turning point 390 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:42,560 moments that I didn't recognize as a turning point, but it certainly was, uh, the decision 391 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:49,280 to get on these pain medications that I knew were going to be a problem for me. 392 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,240 President Hinckley used to call that a switch point. 393 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,240 Yeah. 394 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,560 And he compared it to the railroad and how one would go to Chicago and the other one 395 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,520 maybe the Dallas or wherever. 396 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,560 I think, I think one of the cities was St. Louis. 397 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,040 And anyway, you stand at that switch point and you just move that track just a little 398 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,480 bit, a little turn, just a little bit. 399 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,920 And, and it'll determine, you know, which location you go to North or South. 400 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,920 Yep. 401 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,560 And that's where I stood at that time. 402 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,600 And I, so I started down this path of, uh, and quickly became the wrong track. 403 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:23,600 Yeah. 404 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:24,600 I was on the wrong track. 405 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,280 I had good, good analogy. 406 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:33,560 So I was like in my third year of pharmacy school and I started to, I became physically 407 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:44,360 dependent on opiate medication, um, including, um, oxy cotton, which has come out to, um, 408 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:50,080 there's a lot in the news and media about quite a lawsuit, the, uh, things that have 409 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,780 come out as a result of that. 410 00:24:52,780 --> 00:24:59,160 But anyway, I was in the middle of the opiate, uh, epidemic and I was right there. 411 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:06,280 So I started to do this, I became physically dependent and then I became, um, emotionally 412 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:15,120 and, and, uh, dependent also, and then eventually addicted to the opiate pain, pain medication. 413 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:20,200 And that would have major ramifications on my life. 414 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,240 My marriage, um, would start to deteriorate. 415 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:32,120 Um, after pharmacy school, I took a job at the university of Utah hospital in Salt Lake, 416 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,160 dream job, amazing people, great place. 417 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:42,240 Uh, I couldn't have scripted my life to go in a better path at that point. 418 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,240 I took this job at the U of U. I loved it. 419 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:52,920 I was working there and I had this thing that I was carrying with me, this addiction that 420 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,080 I brought with me and it was so painful. 421 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:04,960 And, um, I did not re recognize how much sway it had over me, how much power it had over 422 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:12,920 me and how much my, of my agency I was giving back over to the adversary, essentially or 423 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,360 to, um, I was giving up my agency. 424 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:22,680 I started to lack the ability to choose essentially what I would do. 425 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:29,160 And that's the danger of addiction is that we lose our ability to even have a choice 426 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,000 in certain matters. 427 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:39,120 That's what's so harmful and dangerous to an addict is that you come to a point and 428 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:46,600 Scott knows what I'm talking about where you don't even have the ability to choose otherwise. 429 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,600 Right. 430 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,680 In fact, I, I remember and I've made reference to this several times on this podcast, but 431 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,760 I remember in a priestess session of general conference, maybe 10 years or so ago, elder 432 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,280 Oaks actually stood up and was talking about addiction among other things probably, but 433 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,240 I don't remember everything else, but he said that he said addiction robs us of our ability 434 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,240 to choose. 435 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,240 Yep. 436 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,240 And it's true. 437 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,520 And that's what it was doing in my life. 438 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:17,320 And so it, it was starting to really wreak havoc and I was, um, I was hurting the people 439 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:29,160 around me in an effort to maintain, uh, the chemical high and the, the pursuit of, of 440 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,480 being on that medication. 441 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,440 And I still had this physical problem that needed to be addressed. 442 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,680 And, uh, but that kind of took a side, that was a sidebar at this point. 443 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,160 The addiction was front and center. 444 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,880 In the middle of all of that, describe your spiritual life. 445 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,840 You know, what's, what's going on in your spiritual life when you're at the University 446 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:50,840 of Utah? 447 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:51,840 Yeah. 448 00:27:51,840 --> 00:28:00,040 So my spiritual life, uh, had taken a complete backseat, um, in part because I was, I was, 449 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:06,920 we moved back to Utah and I started to become the guy that portrayed a certain image of 450 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:13,040 a spiritual man, you know, and, but I wasn't that man deep down inside. 451 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:19,440 And so I was living a double life and that's the worst existence that I think a person 452 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:25,280 can be involved in when, when you have the benefit of, uh, hindsight to look back on 453 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,280 it. 454 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,880 Thankfully, I have that benefit today. 455 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,960 I can look back and say that I was living a double life. 456 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,120 So I was pretending to be one guy and I was actually a different person deep down inside 457 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,880 and I was a liar and a cheat. 458 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,360 And so the turning point was I was at the University of Utah. 459 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:55,520 I was experiencing tremendous overwhelming withdrawal symptoms from natural physical withdrawal 460 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,200 symptoms from the opiate medications. 461 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:08,200 And I chose to reach for those pills on the shelf that were not mine, that were my employers 462 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,360 and I stole that were DEA inventory. 463 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,360 Yeah. 464 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:18,440 The DEA had an inventory of those DEA drug, uh, drug enforcement agency. 465 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,440 Okay. 466 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,440 Yeah. 467 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:26,520 So the, all of those medications that are narcotics are, uh, scheduled medications and 468 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,320 they're closely watched. 469 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:35,120 Well, I made the decision, I guess you could say it was, like I said, my agency had been 470 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:43,720 hampered severely, but I, I reached out and I started to take these pills, um, without 471 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,480 a prescription, without anything. 472 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,880 And then that, that was really another turning point moment that I knew I couldn't come back 473 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,880 from. 474 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,160 And eventually that all led me, uh, brought me to my knees. 475 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:03,760 I had a moment of clarity, uh, a few months months later, I actually had my hip replaced 476 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:12,120 during the course of all of this, um, in an effort to hopefully, I, I had the illusion 477 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:20,120 that by having the medical or the medical treatment of the hip replacement that that 478 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,640 would solve all of my problems. 479 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:27,920 But I knew deep down inside that my problems were greater than my favorite, um, definition 480 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:38,560 of addiction is the persistence of a behavior in the face of overwhelming evidence that 481 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,320 is harmful to you and others. 482 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,480 I like that. 483 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:50,440 I like that, uh, definition because when a person persists in a behavior in the face 484 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:56,040 of that evidence, they are in the grips of addiction. 485 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,440 And so I was there. 486 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760 I was, uh, completely wrapped up. 487 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:08,680 As I said, I had forfeited much of my agency and, uh, I, I had a moment of clarity. 488 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:16,080 I was actually changing my little girl, Sonora, her diaper one day and I had all these lies 489 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,520 that I was working and scheming and all of these things. 490 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:27,000 And I just saw clearly God showed me that, uh, my life would end tragically if I didn't 491 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,280 make a decision right there and then to do something about it. 492 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,760 Um, and that these kids would grow up without a father. 493 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:42,680 And so I took the initial steps to get help and that included, um, outing myself to my 494 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,760 employer, um, very, very humbling experience. 495 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,840 Uh, my wife was already aware of, uh, everything that was going on. 496 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:59,440 Well, most things that were going on, but, um, I sought help. 497 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:07,760 I lost my job as a result of coming forward, but I was able to be gifted or granted an 498 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,620 opportunity to receive help. 499 00:32:10,620 --> 00:32:17,560 So I went to a treatment facility and then, um, through that experience and others, I 500 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:27,840 eventually, uh, became part of the 12 step, um, community and you know, that was the, 501 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:34,480 that was the first attempt at getting clean and sober or correcting my life, getting my 502 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:41,680 life back on track, but it would be a few years later before I really hit that, what 503 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,400 we call a rock bottom. 504 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,280 Don't you mean when we choose that rock? 505 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,280 Yeah. 506 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,920 When I arrived at that rock bottom as a result of my choices, Scott taught me something that's 507 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,920 never will leave me. 508 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,960 I pray rock bottom is not a destination. 509 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:01,960 It's a decision. 510 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:02,960 Yeah. 511 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:03,960 Yeah. 512 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:04,960 Right. 513 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:05,960 Yeah. 514 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:06,960 I love that. 515 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:07,960 You don't magically. 516 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,960 Not a destination because, because if it was a destination, you should have hit it 517 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,440 a long time ago. 518 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:13,440 Absolutely. 519 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:14,440 Yeah. 520 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,360 You know, you could have been in your forces and losing your wife and all that. 521 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,200 I mean, you know, that should have been your rock bottom, but have we, have we answered 522 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,200 the question? 523 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,680 What's the difference between being an addict? 524 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,720 I think that he alluded to that. 525 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:33,240 But you know, I would, so what I heard you say in was, you know, there came a point when, 526 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,300 you know, I don't remember you saying these words, but I'm getting it that there came 527 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:39,360 a point where you lost the ability to choose. 528 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,600 So yeah, it's addicted. 529 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:41,600 Right. 530 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:47,800 But now that it's affecting and kind of replacing our spiritual life, I mean, that's what happens 531 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,520 with drugs and alcohol is they become a quasi spiritual life for us. 532 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,520 Yeah. 533 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,000 And so we step away and I think that's where the addiction part comes in. 534 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,000 Am I right? 535 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,000 Yeah. 536 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,000 For you on that? 537 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,000 That's right. 538 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,000 Yeah. 539 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,520 That pursuit to feel a certain way became paramount in my life. 540 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:09,520 It was everything. 541 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,080 And so everything else was cast aside, unfortunately. 542 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,280 And that's what happens in the lives of addicts. 543 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:26,240 So Craig, let's start transitioning, if we can, into where do the effects of the atonement 544 00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:27,800 of Jesus Christ. 545 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,800 And so, so far right now, what I've heard you explain is a fallen world. 546 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:32,800 Yeah. 547 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:39,120 A fallen Craig, a fallen natural, your experience to the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve, 548 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,800 death, physical death, everything that you've talked about right now has been in response 549 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,120 to and as an effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. 550 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,960 We talk about in this podcast that the way that we overcome the effects of the fall of 551 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:59,120 Adam and Eve is through Jesus Christ's atonement, the effects that come from his power made available 552 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,480 to us rather through his atonement. 553 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:07,160 At what point and where did you begin to see this happening was a flood all at once? 554 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,600 Did it trickle in for you? 555 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,160 What was your effort involved? 556 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:18,000 Why was that important for you to begin that relationship and down that process? 557 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,000 Yeah. 558 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:29,000 So after I went to treatment in Oregon, I came back and my then wife, she asked for a separation 559 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,080 and a divorce. 560 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:38,760 And so we went through that path and that was extremely harrowing experience, very hard 561 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:46,240 thing to try to endure as a sober person, you know, without all of the tools and skills. 562 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:47,240 Yeah. 563 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:48,240 So let me just push pause for a sec. 564 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,000 When he says for a sober person, that's not going to mean a lot to a lot of people. 565 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,760 But here, so let me just put some color context around what that means for a sober person. 566 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:03,360 So here's a guy, he's been addicted to and dependent on not just for physical, but for 567 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,600 emotional and spiritual and mental relief. 568 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,560 He's been addicted to these drugs, right? 569 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,600 These opiates opiates and heroin are the same thing just in different form. 570 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,040 I mean, so that put it a little bit in context, right? 571 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,160 And so here's a guy that's gone through all of that. 572 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:29,440 He's gone to a really well known treatment center right up there, like everybody's heard 573 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:30,440 of Betty Ford. 574 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,400 This one's kind of like that. 575 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,520 So he's been to this. 576 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,800 He comes home, he's gone to work. 577 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,760 He's now at this treatment center 90 days, heroin. 578 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:39,760 Yeah. 579 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,040 90 day over 90 day over a 90 day treatment center. 580 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:47,520 So he's in this treatment center, getting clean, getting working through his physical 581 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,960 and mental withdrawals and all of that. 582 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,600 Finally starting to feel a little bit of the sunlight of the spirit, I'm assuming. 583 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,200 Coming home and thinking I'm getting all my stuff together and then you walk home and 584 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,040 into that. 585 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,200 And you are ill equipped. 586 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,440 You are ill equipped. 587 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,440 Am I wrong? 588 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,440 No. 589 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:13,800 You are totally ill equipped to deal with the emotional turmoil that was standing in 590 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:14,800 front of you. 591 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,800 Yeah. 592 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:22,960 I was not equipped to deal with what was coming. 593 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:30,960 And so I tried my best out of sheer willpower to stay on the path. 594 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,040 I ended up in our separation. 595 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:39,800 We were separated for about six months or so and the kids were with her and that was 596 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,560 very hard. 597 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,320 And then eventually I ended up getting a job back in pharmacy. 598 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:53,760 I had someone take pity on me, essentially some people that I knew out in the UNO basin. 599 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,520 They were very kind and gave me a second opportunity knowing my circumstances. 600 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,440 They gave me a shot as a pharmacist. 601 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:09,760 I went back into that career and about three or four months into that I relapsed and started 602 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,840 back down the path. 603 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:26,560 And you know, that was a very hard thing when you think that you have gotten a certain hold 604 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:33,400 on something and then it rears its ugly head again and you used to come to that. 605 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,840 That was really hard. 606 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:44,760 So I found a new bottom in all of that and I proved a lot of people who didn't think 607 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,760 I could do this right. 608 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:55,280 Essentially, I had several people I think that were like, yeah, you probably aren't 609 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,800 going to make it out. 610 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:07,440 And I don't know and Scott can speak to this too, but the grace that is afforded someone 611 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,040 who's given opportunity after opportunity is so tremendous. 612 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,000 I was given so much grace and I didn't recognize it at the time that I was receiving that, 613 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,400 but I was given all this grace. 614 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,960 I had this moment. 615 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,640 I'll be very quick in saying it. 616 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:34,840 I had a moment after this relapse where it was made clear to me that my life was not 617 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:42,320 going to go move forward in the way that it was, that I was living it if I continued. 618 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,920 And so my younger brother Preston, he's a dear soul to me. 619 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,800 He asked me a question one day when I was down and out. 620 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:58,280 He said, how much longer do you think you can go on like this? 621 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,800 And that hit me like a ton of stones. 622 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:11,800 And it hit me so hard with the force and I said I can't go on like this anymore. 623 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,520 And all of us that know you are grateful for that stoning you took that for sure. 624 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,800 Well Craig, in just the last few minutes that we have of the podcast today, what I'd 625 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:28,680 really like to hear you talk about is so so far we've heard about what it was like. 626 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,160 You know, we hear a little bit about what happened. 627 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,920 Why don't you just kind of finish that with what happened? 628 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,400 Talk to us about your relationship with Jesus Christ and His Atonement and how that's made 629 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,600 the difference for you and your life. 630 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:43,840 Okay. 631 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,280 Thank you for this opportunity. 632 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,280 I really appreciate it. 633 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:57,560 I admire both of you and what you're attempting to do and bring this message to others. 634 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:08,640 I had an opportunity to fill the redemption and experience the redemption that comes 635 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,880 and can only come through the Savior. 636 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:21,560 I stood at that last turning point and it was a literal choice between moving forward, 637 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:29,080 living and or ending my life is what it came to. 638 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:35,280 I felt that those were the terms and conditions that I was presented with. 639 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:45,000 And in that moment I surrendered to God and I gave up my will in order for Him to show 640 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,040 me a new life. 641 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,600 And that's the journey that I started out on. 642 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,400 I knew it was going to be very rocky and hard. 643 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,040 It has been. 644 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:05,000 I started on this path of recovery and it has been remarkable. 645 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,800 I'm in the rooms of recovery now. 646 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:14,880 I moved out here to Utah Valley to be close to my kids. 647 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:21,600 Eventually I would meet my sweet person named Aaron who is absolutely wonderful in every 648 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:22,600 way. 649 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,600 She's a doll. 650 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,880 I call her the glue that's put me all back together. 651 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:38,120 She has loved me in a way that I've needed and I'm so thankful for her. 652 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:44,960 We met about six years ago and started dating and then got married and we now have two kids 653 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,840 of our own, a four year old and a two year old. 654 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,800 But anyway, I want to try to encapsulate this. 655 00:42:52,800 --> 00:43:03,840 I felt that I was just out of reach of the Savior's love. 656 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:13,200 I had had this amazing experience of surrender that every addict and alcoholic must face. 657 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:19,760 I had come to this point of surrender and I had tapped into my relationship with a very 658 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:20,760 loving God. 659 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:27,600 I felt the love of God again and that's what sustained me through all of the ups and downs 660 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,720 of early recovery and sobriety. 661 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:44,040 I was missing a vital piece to the puzzle and the only piece which is Jesus Christ. 662 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:52,080 I wondered how I could tap into that because I knew I had a relationship with the Father 663 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:57,520 with God because I prayed to Him for strength and for courage. 664 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:05,280 But I didn't know how Jesus could help me as a man and as a father and as a husband. 665 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:17,600 And so I made that my intention and my desire and I started to pray to God for an experience 666 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,840 to know His Son. 667 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,200 And I was telling Scott a while back that I had an experience recently. 668 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,400 My oldest son, Dallin, he's 20 years old. 669 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:37,840 He and I have, as a result of my actions and things that I've talked about here, our relationship 670 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,160 isn't the best that it could be. 671 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:46,640 It isn't what I want it to be and hopefully not what he wants it to be eventually. 672 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:58,160 But I have, right now, we're not in communication, but I have this longing to be with my son. 673 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:05,320 I desire, I want so badly to have him in my life and to sucker him and to love him and 674 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:13,000 show him compassion and whatever he needs. 675 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:23,240 And it was in this thought and in this moment that I prayed to the Lord and I had an experience 676 00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:34,160 where God showed me that that love that I have for my son is exactly the same love that 677 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,080 Jesus Christ has for me. 678 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:44,040 And my desire to be close to him is exactly what the Savior wants with each of us. 679 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:51,720 And so I want to make the rest of my life, however long that is, and with you gentlemen 680 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:58,680 and others, I want to make it my purpose to share that message of hope that Christ is 681 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:04,800 there when he says come unto me, he means it. 682 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:13,520 His arms are stretched open to us and we need to come to him and it has been my experience 683 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:23,880 and I can testify that Jesus Christ can make you whole, the parts of you that are lacking, 684 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:32,080 that you feel are not right, and you know what those are better than anyone else, that 685 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:45,440 Jesus Christ through his amazing and inexplicable atonement can fill all of that for us. 686 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,880 And that's what has happened for me. 687 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:57,560 So there's a difference, there's a difference, right, Greg, between recovery and then use 688 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:58,560 this word. 689 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,520 And I was really grateful you use this word. 690 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,520 You said my redemption. 691 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,400 There's a difference between recovery and redemption. 692 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:18,640 Can you kind of describe the difference between addicts who go through recovery and addicts 693 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:19,640 who are redeemed? 694 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,040 Oh, that's a great question. 695 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,040 Yes. 696 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:33,200 I think the difference lies in conversion, conversion through the Spirit and through 697 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,080 our Savior. 698 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:43,720 And that's what I've experienced, this deep change that can't be unchanged, that can't 699 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:46,080 be reversed, I should say. 700 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:54,000 When you experience a true conversion to Jesus Christ, as I feel that I have now through 701 00:47:54,000 --> 00:48:03,240 repentance and through his amazing grace, you cannot go back to what you were before. 702 00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,640 You are transformed. 703 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,320 That's the difference between living a life of recovery and all of these attempts and 704 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:18,320 I'm trying and I'm doing and, you know, I'm making these efforts and all of these things 705 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:24,520 and actually just receiving that grace. 706 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,320 It's not, you can elaborate on this. 707 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:36,360 So you know, atheists and agnostics can change their behaviors and experience recovery and 708 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:44,800 overcome addictions, but through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, through real repentance, 709 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:49,560 true repentance, you know, we've talked about this so many times, three seasons now, it 710 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:56,320 comes down not to changing your behavior, but it comes down to Christ changing your 711 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:57,800 nature. 712 00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,600 Yes. 713 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:07,400 Is that what you're saying and why have you experienced that or how have you experienced 714 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:13,760 that now and why didn't you why didn't you experience that when you repented before your 715 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,760 mission or on your mission or what's the difference? 716 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:32,320 The difference I think is has been a willingness to number one, come into a covenant relationship 717 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:43,200 with the Savior and making him the power source for all of what I do and what I want to accomplish. 718 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:50,120 If I'm driving at something and I want to accomplish something out of my own sheer will 719 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:56,920 and force and I'm excluding the Lord and in all of that desire to make others happy, 720 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,960 desire to be a good boy, desire to be a obedient missionary. 721 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:08,800 You know, there were lots of good great reasons why you served a successful mission, but I'm 722 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,160 not sure that you experienced the same level of conversion on your mission that you've 723 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,560 experienced in the past few years, right? 724 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:17,800 Yeah, absolutely. 725 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:25,560 It's been an amazing process because and that's the mercy and love that the Savior has for 726 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:26,840 each of us. 727 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,560 He loves us so much that he's willing to allow us to have our individual experience with 728 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:40,760 him and in a way that is so meaningful to each of us that it can have an impact forever, 729 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,840 you know, eternally. 730 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,080 And that's what I love about the Atonement is that there's no limit to it. 731 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:55,280 There's no limit to the experience that we can each have with the Savior because it just 732 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,720 grows, it broadens as we share it with others. 733 00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:09,640 And so that's what I hope my new mission is and purpose is in life the rest of my life 734 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,920 to share this message. 735 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:21,920 Hopefully with other Christians, I have a desire to help loved ones of addicts, especially 736 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,360 I'm going to put together something for loved ones of addicts who are trying to support 737 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:34,240 their addicted and spiritually ill people in their lives. 738 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:35,760 I feel prompted to do that. 739 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:41,280 And so I'm going to put together something with my siblings, actually. 740 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,240 It's called My Brother's Keeper. 741 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,000 It's going to be a really cool thing. 742 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,600 And my siblings can speak to it and they've helped me tremendously. 743 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,760 I have, I just am so grateful. 744 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:58,840 I when this is the thing that I talk to the men that I am able to help in the rooms of 745 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:10,200 recovery is I tell them, no matter what you face today, if you really consider the amazing 746 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:16,120 grace that brought you here and has allowed you to still be here, Scott and I have lost 747 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:24,720 countless numbers of friends and people that we've come to know in the rooms of recovery 748 00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,520 who have died as a result of this awful disease. 749 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:29,520 Relapse. 750 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:38,800 Relapse and if we're gifted this ability to move forward, we better do something with 751 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:39,800 it. 752 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,320 And that's what I intend to do. 753 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,400 And I just, I think both of you for allowing me to share my story. 754 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,320 So yeah, now I'm a general contractor. 755 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:58,440 I'm not a pharmacist anymore, but my life has is so rich and so full and I love the Lord 756 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:05,440 and I love the gospel and amazing things are going to happen as a result of this experience. 757 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,960 I can't let it go to waste. 758 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:12,240 I have a friend named Jason who said, if you don't share your story, he's he's also in 759 00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:17,280 recovery and a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 760 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,640 He says, if you don't share your story, if you don't come back, then there won't be an 761 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:23,760 Alma the younger. 762 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:29,000 There won't be a Paul to share a story of redemption. 763 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:37,240 We need people to lift others up who are struggling because we don't always, you know, not everyone 764 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:42,520 comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the same with the same parameters. 765 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,080 You know, well, it might, it might be too sacred. 766 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:50,200 I know we're probably going a little long, but it may be too sacred to share or whatever. 767 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,880 So I don't want want you to, if you feel that way. 768 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,480 But so Paul had an experience Alma had an experience. 769 00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,280 It was an event. 770 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,960 Was your, was your coming to the Lord and your redemption? 771 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,800 Would you say it was more of an event or was it more of a process? 772 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,920 Did it happen? 773 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:17,920 Was there something that happened that you can identify as an event or did it just happen 774 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:23,360 gradually over time little by little here, here, here a little there a little kind of 775 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,000 a mixture of the two. 776 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:32,800 It's been a process and I've had to learn and grow and be transformed as a result of 777 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,880 that process. 778 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:45,760 But one pivotal moment was when I felt the overwhelming love of Jesus Christ in that 779 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:56,360 moment, I made a commitment and a covenant with him that I would use that grace that 780 00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,680 he had afforded me to bless the lives of others. 781 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:09,240 And that is where I've felt this amazing influx of power and love. 782 00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,200 And it, that's been the big turning point for me. 783 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,040 I prayed and I said, God, if you're going to give this to me, I'm going to use it for 784 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,640 good. 785 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,840 And that's what I intend to do. 786 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,760 And that's what I know you guys are trying to do. 787 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,240 Also, that's that was a pivotal moment. 788 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:31,200 And you said, quote, in that moment. 789 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,200 So it was a moment. 790 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,200 Yeah. 791 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,200 A blinding moment. 792 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:37,200 Yeah. 793 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:38,200 Yeah. 794 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:43,040 When Alma recounts his experience to his son, I love it. 795 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,360 It's just so you can relate to it. 796 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,720 Oh, it brings me to tears every time that I read it. 797 00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:50,600 How great was my sorrow? 798 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,600 And how overwhelming was my joy? 799 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:59,320 And if you take that whole chapter of Alma 36, Gray, and you turn it into chiasmus, do 800 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,160 you know the center, the center point of the chiasmus? 801 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:04,160 I don't. 802 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:05,160 Okay, I'm going to read it to you. 803 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,160 Okay. 804 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:13,600 And the center, he is, this is really amazing and what a, what a testimony of the prophetic 805 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:19,640 call of Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith is a, as a young man in his twenties could 806 00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,000 not have invented this. 807 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:30,840 But in this, the whole chapter is written in chiasmus and the Hebrew literature for 808 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,120 and here's the center. 809 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,160 You would take the whole chapter. 810 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:40,920 Here's the center and then I'm going to read it and then have you just respond to it. 811 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,920 Now as my mind caught hold, this is verse 18. 812 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:51,440 Now as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart. 813 00:56:51,440 --> 00:57:02,520 Oh Jesus, thou son of God, have mercy on me who am in the gall of bitterness and am encircled 814 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:08,080 about by the everlasting chains of death. 815 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:15,080 And now behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more. 816 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:20,920 Yay, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. 817 00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:26,240 And oh what joy and what marvelous light I did behold. 818 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:34,920 Yay, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain. 819 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,800 That's just, is that the moment? 820 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:39,800 That's the moment. 821 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:40,800 Yeah. 822 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:48,080 When you experienced that reversion, that life or death, you had come to that, that place. 823 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,480 Yeah. 824 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,880 And how great was my joy? 825 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:59,240 How great is my joy today because of that mercy that was extended to me? 826 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:09,920 And I hope that it's my prayer that I can continue to share that joy and that light. 827 00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,760 I love the concept of light. 828 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,760 We bring light to the world. 829 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,720 Christ brought light to the world and we carry it for Him and we need to do that for others. 830 00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,000 That's what we can do and we can make a difference, no doubt about it. 831 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:33,400 Well, we're grateful, Craig, that you chose light and life and came out of the darkness 832 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:41,200 and spiritual death that you were in and grateful for all of those who have had that influence 833 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:42,200 in your life. 834 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,480 Thank you for letting me share my story with you. 835 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:51,280 I am a front row seat to have a front row seat to Craig's life by nature of our relationship 836 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,040 and I am so, so grateful for that. 837 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,200 I can tell you, however, that Craig's life is still not perfect. 838 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,960 I can tell you that life and life's events still come at Craig just like it does at 839 00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:04,040 all of us. 840 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:12,080 This hasn't been the thing that has made Craig's life a lottery winner against all things that 841 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:13,560 have fallen. 842 00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,920 He still faces them and he still deals with some things like we all do again that can 843 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,080 be extremely challenging to us. 844 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:28,760 The difference is today he hangs on to, he cleaves to his covenants and he hangs on to 845 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,920 the things that continually bring him peace in his life. 846 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:33,920 I love you, Craig. 847 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:34,920 Thanks, Scott. 848 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:35,920 I love you too. 849 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,920 Thanks for being here. 850 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,440 Any final thoughts, any final words that you'd love to impart to us? 851 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:48,040 I want to express my gratitude and I hope that anyone who hears this would open up their 852 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:53,000 heart to whatever it is that is troubling you. 853 00:59:53,000 --> 01:00:01,240 I know that the Savior can not only understand but he will help you in whatever it is that 854 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:08,560 you're facing and your listeners, I'm sure, as I have been helped by previous podcasts, 855 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:16,320 I just pray that you make yourself open to the Lord and he'll show you in his own way, 856 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,040 unique way, you'll have an experience not unlike my own. 857 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:21,240 He longs. 858 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,240 He does. 859 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:27,920 Longs for to have a relationship with us, doesn't he, Craig? 860 01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:28,920 Yes. 861 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,280 I loved the way you described that with your son. 862 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:38,200 You long to have a relationship with someone and your son may not even realize that fully 863 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:45,600 as we don't realize it fully at times in our life, how the Savior longs to have a closer, 864 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:50,640 more personal, redemptive relationship with us. 865 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,360 Anyway, thank you so much for being here today. 866 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,720 Thanks for being with us, Craig. 867 01:00:55,720 --> 01:01:01,080 If you're open to it, Craig, I'm going to invite our listeners to send emails to heredeemsosatgmail.com. 868 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:07,080 If you have any questions for Craig, have any comments for Craig encouragement, whatever, 869 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,320 please send those to heredeemsosatgmail.com. 870 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,520 I'll forward those on to Craig and we'll see if we can get those responded to Craig. 871 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:15,720 Thanks so much for being with us. 872 01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:16,720 Once again, I love you. 873 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,080 I love your passion behind all that you do. 874 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,840 I love your more than anything. 875 01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:26,280 I love your relationship and it's evident to me as your sponsor and as your friend, 876 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:31,080 it's evident to me that your relationship with your heavenly father through his spirit 877 01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,920 and as is accommodated to us through his son, Jesus Christ. 878 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,040 I love to be a part of that. 879 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,240 I love to watch that and I can encourage you to continue in that vein. 880 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,400 The second best thing about Craig, actually maybe the first best thing about Craig is 881 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,320 Aaron and his kids. 882 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:52,880 And I want Aaron to know I love her and the kids. 883 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,000 You have a wonderful, wonderful dad. 884 01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,360 Please, please, please listen and feel the things which you have heard today. 885 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,200 Thanks for being with us, everybody. 886 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,560 We invite you and encourage you to be with us again next week. 887 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:19,560 Until then, be well.